Fundamentals
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READ THE BOOK: https://zeuspay.com/btc-for-institutions
Jason
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READ THE FCKING BOOK!!^^
Intro and Outro: Sample in a Jar - Phish 08/17/1996, Clifford Ball Festival, Limestone, ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3UpIJPnnc
Doc Ellis No-No Story https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14
Other Mentions:
Phish - The "Hoist" Tracking Sessions [1994] (Includes studio footage of Allison Krauss and Bela Fleck) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgOEoW7gqUk
In this episode, we riff on subversion in sports, music, and modern culture—from John Daly’s “grip it and rip it” ethos to Doc Ellis’ legendary LSD no-hitter storytelling, and why those anti-establishment moments resonate so deeply. We draw parallels to Phish’s enduring, proudly off-kilter path: their refusal to chase a radio hit, the wonderfully weird choices on Hoist (hello, Riker’s Mailbox), and how playful defiance, secret language, and fan connection can outlast trends. Along the way, we debate calling your shot versus quiet competence, Dunning–Kruger in the influencer era, Buddhism’s lens on suffering and self-importance, and whether telling the truth is today’s most subversive act. We also hit Bitcoin culture—scarcity mindsets, circular economies, paying in sats, and why real scenes need real art—asking: where’s the music for the moment, and what makes it truly subversive?
Plus: memories of hard-to-get shows like Phish at The Met, the strange magic of scarcity, Fishman’s political detour, Bernie-era populism, and the improbable ways conviction carries creative projects through.
[00:00:24]
Unknown:
Yeah, you're a golf player, right? You get that? Yeah, yeah. I I was I was a tennis guy and so people used to people stole that tennis people stole that saying Oh, grip it and rip it? Grip it and rip it. Yeah. And do you know who came up with that? I don't. Was that John Daly. Patty Shack. Oh, John Daly. That's awesome.
[00:00:43] Unknown:
Duwenda, nineteen ninety five PGA championship drunk.
[00:00:48] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. He should be a Bitcoin icon somehow.
[00:00:52] Unknown:
He really should.
[00:00:53] Unknown:
Because he's so many memes. You know? He's just part of so many fucking memes. You know what the fish version of John Daly is, really?
[00:01:06] Unknown:
I mean, I would I would jump towards Fishman, but go ahead.
[00:01:09] Unknown:
No. Like, the athlete that would be like, the athlete that would most represent this culture is, Doc Ellis. Have you heard ever heard that name? I've heard the name, but I'm not Yeah. We're putting this shit in the show notes that Doc Ellis is famous for pitching a no hitter on asset.
[00:01:31] Unknown:
I know this story now that you now that you say that.
[00:01:36] Unknown:
You you you know the story. It's a and one of the first videos I ever saw on YouTube was it was an animated background to him telling the story. What's the story? Say it for me. The animation is perfect. The story is he, well, you know, he the story is this. He was constantly doing drugs all the time. He had people in every basically, back in the seventies, greenies, amphetamines, there was always, like, that person. You just go you would show up to the ballpark and get your greenies. Right? Get your amps. And, I'm pausing because you we feel like we have a technical issue right now, and I don't know. It's okay. I'm gonna power through this.
You're frozen. So
[00:02:26] Unknown:
Yeah. We do.
[00:02:29] Unknown:
Anyhow, I'm gonna power through this. So he has an off day, and somebody gives him you know, on his off day, somebody just gave him some acid, and he took it. And just I guess part of the story was, like, he was just told, no, dude. You're pitching today. You know? This ain't your off day. You're fucking pitching today. You we're going to the ballpark right fucking now. And he's like, oh, shit. Okay. And, he goes to the ballpark, and he's like, oh, first thing I did at the ballpark was find my greenies. And, because I knew I was gonna need them.
Otherwise, this was gonna be you know, there's he he was saying how they were, like, there were times where the ball was, like, fucking just 10 feet big and, like, with a catcher with would throw it to him, and he was diving out of the way, like, diving out of the way of the fucking ball. Yeah. Yeah. He said the catcher had to wear tape on his fingers so that he could see the signs. You know? And, just the whole thing is fucking hilarious. And then he said, like, in the fourth inning of the game, somebody somebody kept going up to him and saying, you got a no no. You got a no no. And, you know, it's like the cardinal sin in baseball is you're not supposed to tell the pitcher, but he's like, I'm sorry. He's like, I don't know what the fuck was going on.
Yeah. It's he's narrating the like, I am giving you the spirit of how he narrated the story. You know? Like, he narrated it like it's the greatest moment of his life, and it's, like, the greatest time he's ever had. And, it's pretty fucking legendary. I think anybody who's ever, like, done acid has gotta be has gotta tip your hat to this motherfucker.
[00:04:07] Unknown:
Yeah. No doubt. And, you know, John Daly famously said, he's like, it's it's hard to be nervous over a 10 footer to win to win the PGA when you're drunk.
[00:04:16] Unknown:
Maybe he had a little bit of that too. Like, he the man just couldn't relate that to you. What are they saying golf? The hardest part of the course to navigate is the space in between your ears?
[00:04:26] Unknown:
Yeah. It is very mental. I think Tiger made that one famous. But,
[00:04:31] Unknown:
Did he? Yeah. Good shit. Shit,
[00:04:33] Unknown:
dude. I know. I'm I'm I'm I'm the biggest tiger hater that that there there ever
[00:04:38] Unknown:
was. We're supposed to like him. I mean, he was good. I know.
[00:04:42] Unknown:
He fucked. Not a popular take. Not a popular take.
[00:04:46] Unknown:
You know, he just got all corporate co opted. You know? So, like, you know, John Daly is the Fish character, not Tiger Woods. You know? Like, Don Daly is the was like a porcupine. It's like Fish was a fucking porcupine. You know? When they were coming up and trying to make it, they just had this they had the the spiny things, and it's like they just looked like, dude, don't go near this band. Yep. Totally. This is this is goofy shit. Dare I say dare I say subversive.
[00:05:21] Unknown:
Oh, is it word word of the last couple of days?
[00:05:25] Unknown:
It is a word of the last couple of days.
[00:05:28] Unknown:
Are you referring to the bugle? Yeah. Yeah. So, It's
[00:05:33] Unknown:
hard to know what people are hearing. I'm sorry. Like, it's hard to know what episodes are public and which ones are subscriber only. Yeah. I listen to all of them, and, I have to tell you guys, the subscriber only shit is now starting to it's starting to bang hard. Yeah. I got phone. The interview with Mars was on was incredible. I'm almost, like, happy that people who don't subscribe don't get it. Yeah. They don't get to hear it.
[00:06:01] Unknown:
And I was subscribed, and then I I, I pulled out. And then I saw the Mars episode, and I was because I I know Mars pretty well. National Geographic. I might have to I might have to sign back up for that one.
[00:06:15] Unknown:
Dude, who's Mars? Like, what's the fish equivalent of Mars in the flick fish scene? I just like how don't even you know, it's just, the guy is just, like, smart. You know? Mhmm. Just a smart motherfucker who understands the social game. Yeah. I don't know if there's an equivalent. You know? Just
[00:06:36] Unknown:
we're lucky to have him. Yeah. And we're lucky he's on our side. He's a sneaky, smart kinda guy too. Like, he's a you know, it's he's unassuming. Let me put it that way. I just like I just like him. He's a good character. Likable. Very likable.
[00:06:49] Unknown:
Maybe he's, you know, maybe he's sorta like Jesse Jarno, you know, where he's gonna write a book one of these days and, you know, no one's gonna see him coming. But he's gonna, like you know what I mean? Intellectually, like, no one's gonna see him coming, and he's gonna snipe everybody.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I, I always appreciate people people that are like that that, you know, a lion doesn't have to tell you he's a lion kind of people.
[00:07:18] Unknown:
Yeah. Okay. Well, we had this episode on rock paper Bitcoin episode 75, which was, that's the exact quote business cat said, and I got I got, I clack I had to clack back on that one. Okay. But, you know, that but the context for that conversation was that, the context was that when you're reaching for greatness, you need to tell people. And if you don't, really, the only voices that get heard from are the dipshits who think they're great. Yeah. I think that's a lot of people. I think At some point, a lion needs to say, lion in the house.
[00:08:03] Unknown:
I would love to, extend this this idea a little bit. I think this is I think we touched on something we're talking about. Talk about subversive, dude. Calling your shot is fucking subversive. Right? It is. And it is a valid approach and especially in western society where, like, I I have this joke with my wife. Like, people are like, oh, I'm type a. I'm like, oh, so you're type asshole? Is that what you're telling me? Like, this idea this idea that extroversion or being a bonnet China shop being very aggressive is rewarded in western in western especially in in, you know, capitalist style economies.
And that is true. They do get rewarded. But like a lot of perverted incentives in in fiat land, I think it's a very fiat way to be.
[00:08:53] Unknown:
It's a function of the Dunning Kruger effect. Right? Do we know should we know what the Dunning Kruger effect is?
[00:09:02] Unknown:
Of course.
[00:09:03] Unknown:
Yep. Right? For the audience, since you guys are all morons, you guys then you guys clearly already know what it is, ironically. Yeah. But we'll say it's we'll say it. We'll we'll state it anyway, dear listener. In case, you know, I mean, you know, we might have an artist like Mike Gordon listening one of these days and, you know, what the fuck is that?
[00:09:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:09:28] Unknown:
I have this idea that Mike Gordon doesn't know anything that everybody else knows. He's like in a completely different dimension in his knowledge system. We never hear from him. We never really know what the fuck he knows. But That's true. You know? Anyhow, Dunning Kruger effect is this phenomena where incompetent people tend to be more vocal, and they don't know how incompetent they are. So they speak of, you know, they talk great shit about themselves. And competent people don't call them on it because they don't competent people don't think people would talk shit. Competent people are like, hey. They must know what they're fucking talking about.
Right. And so you have this kind of effect where only these incompetent fucking rubes are the ones, you know, go touting off on themselves, and they're dominating the conversation of society. And it's almost like this is all you see. And I feel like we we live in this world of influencers. You know, I say that pejoratively. Mhmm. This world of people who are kinda like you know, they're not the smart the smart people aren't speaking up. Right? Because a lion doesn't have to say he's a fucking lion. And, they're not speaking up, and so we don't hear from them. We don't hear from them, like, nearly enough. And Yeah. Dude, even when we do hear from them, these like, these people have, like, no followers, no engagement.
Right? Nobody you know, they get they get totally obliterated by the algo. And you have to be like us, like, on the ground doing hand to hand combat to fucking meet these people. Yeah. See a guy like Mars, dude. You go look up how many followers Mars has. And, dude, he's great. I know. He's got great you know? He's fantastic. Yep. And he has probably he I I would guess under 2,000 followers on Twitter. A 100%. Yep. Right? Somebody who would be called criminally under followed.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:11:27] Unknown:
You know? So, like, my point and so so I, you know, I I'm starting to think that it's important for people it's important for everybody to bloviate about themselves. And then let's just because then that's how we get some of the smart ones in the conversation.
[00:11:50] Unknown:
Otherwise, you it's just the world stays the same. Yeah. I mean, I I think and like I said, I think I think your perspective is more valid than mine because it's been empirically proven to be correct more than my approach, which is, you know, the idea that self importance is the root of suffering.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
Yeah. But guess what? You're right. Self importance is the root is is a root of suffering?
[00:12:20] Unknown:
It's one of the main, yeah, one of the main ones. And Per the Yeah. But, like, at least, we're not,
[00:12:26] Unknown:
like, we're not put on this earth to avoid suffering. We may not even be put on this earth to be happy.
[00:12:36] Unknown:
We're on put I mean Well, that's very contrary to all the ancient wisdom traditions.
[00:12:45] Unknown:
That suffering is inevitable. To live is to suffer. You will suffer. That's it. Don't worry about you. Don't worry about that. You're grounded in Buddhism. Right? And it's like to be a human being is to suffer. Well To to live is to suffer. The human condition. So then that would imply in some way that it's like self importance is part of who we are. You know? You know how many times I've said on this podcast, like, what like, I get amazed when I listen to fucking I listen to tapes from, like, 1991 or 1992, and I am amazed at, like, how how did how is Trey so sure this is gonna work?
And then he finds out well, everyone was. No. He was. He was. He was sure, but he was. Yeah. I mean, I don't And not only was he sure, but, like, I I think I referenced an interview with Brad Sands recently. Brad Sands said, we all fucking knew. Yeah. We all knew in 1991 this was gonna fly. We all everyone fucking knew it. Like, we all everyone believed in Trey. Trey was a legitimate fucking superstar, just as a like a magnetic personality. And it's just everyone somehow everyone
[00:13:59] Unknown:
knew. But that's I mean, Trey's a terrible example to to prove your point in the sense that if if if Trey was a modern person that I'm kind of, I don't know, describing here, this this I don't know. People that that that boast that market themselves very well and are able to find either, you know, career success, monetary success, however you wanna describe it. He would have been on the radio talking about how great the band was, and he would have then made concessions and played the game in a way, and he would have made compromises on the ethos of the band. And and then Fishwood would agree what they
[00:14:40] Unknown:
were. They were saying how great they were, though. Every time they took the stage and he did some fucking narration about some stupid land on the other side of the mountains. Okay? That act of subversion can only be interpreted as an act of self importance.
[00:15:05] Unknown:
I I'm not It's not a shallow thing. But It's not like a shallow thing is what I'm saying. Yeah. But the band had 2,000 followers. You know what I mean? They didn't have 200,000 followers. They didn't they didn't they didn't do things that that were would have been necessary for them to have 200,000 followers. Because that wasn't what they did, though. Because what they did was they they said how great they were.
[00:15:27] Unknown:
They kept going. And then, eventually, they had 5,000 and then, eventually, 10,000. And then, eventually, they're being covered by ABC on New Year's Eve as the fish with 70,000 people see coming just to see them. You know, most most people driving for days and days and days with no opening act. Right? Eventually, they they got the following. And Yeah. But that's only because they Dude, I was just in Canada for calling. Hold on. I was just in Canada where we did a whole episode about how Phish didn't just didn't break from Canada. Right? But everybody knows who the fuck they are. Right? I talked to anyone I talked to in Bitcoin, eventually, I asked if they know who Phish is. Everybody fucking knows who they are,
[00:16:15] Unknown:
Eventually. And most people think that it's it's it's it's it's terrible. Like I don't agree with that. And the most if you're a musician,
[00:16:26] Unknown:
you're like, yeah. They're they're talented.
[00:16:28] Unknown:
Most people are like, oh, you're into fish? Oh, that could what are you in a cult? I don't think most people It's very it's very much like that in that regard.
[00:16:38] Unknown:
Yeah. That's right. So I would say it's very relevant. I mean, you know, Bitcoin is super relevant. Most people are most almost everyone in the world at this point is asking themselves, do I have to care about this?
[00:16:55] Unknown:
Right.
[00:16:57] Unknown:
You know? And I think, like, most people have been through that with fish at some point in time. Do I have to care about this? The about this and the fucking thing? Right. And the fact that it's art makes it easy to dismiss. Right? Because you don't need art in your life. Right? It's better if you do. Oh, you don't need I just don't like money. But yeah. I hear you. It's not like money. Or yeah. I mean, I think that's a different argument for another day. Yeah. Potentially. We did this before the last time. People individuals maybe this is interesting. Right? Because maybe individuals don't really need it, but cultures do. And cultures need individuals who appreciate art. Otherwise, they don't Yes. They don't last.
[00:17:37] Unknown:
But, yeah, but back to the back to the I'm sorry.
[00:17:41] Unknown:
No. Go ahead.
[00:17:43] Unknown:
Yeah. Back to the, I don't know, the human condition of of, you know, the Buddha the Buddhist perspective on as it relates to, you know, self importance being the root of suffering, attachment being another big one that they talk about.
[00:17:59] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:18:02] Unknown:
I think that the teachings that the pithy type of teachings that, you know, Buddhism kinda repeats throughout all of its writings over time is really not about, like, the goal of life is to eliminate suffering. That's not that's an impossibility. It's about really, like, understanding what it is to be human and counterbalancing these tendencies that we all have to be grabby, to be to wanna put yourself out there and, you know, zero sum game type of thinking. It's like scarcity mindset versus abundance mindset. And one thing that kinda came to me as it relates to, like, scarcity. The fact that Bitcoiners think about scarcity so much, I worry that it's easy for us to fall down this this this incorrect path of of zero sum game thinking. I'm not saying this is a conscious activity.
It's just something we think because we think about scarcity so much that we can Many will.
[00:19:02] Unknown:
Many we don't know how to think about this. So, like, many will. Right? Just back on suffering, I have my view is that winners, find ways to suffer on their own terms to the extent they can. Right? So, like, you could either suffer in a gym or suffer with in the hospital. Right. Right? And so you can choose you can choose your suffering in certain ways by being, you know, sort of preemptive and purposeful. Right?
[00:19:37] Unknown:
Right. Intention intentional. Yeah.
[00:19:41] Unknown:
You know, it's funny. Right? I had the I had that had the conversation with Joey. That was a great podcast. I don't know if you listened to it yet. I haven't seen it. I haven't I know you've been Bitcoin. It's the Canadian Bitcoin podcast. We did it in our apartment that we were staying in. Check it out. It's, like, really it was a good time. It was really it was like, it was like rock paper Bitcoin was on a podcast and got to talk about itself. Oh, I saw I saw that comment. Yeah. That's great. And, one of the one of the things Joey said that I reacted to, he'll never listen to this. He actually said he called doing a fish podcast like the dumbest thing in the world. See? So See? We're safe here.
But one of the things he said was, this is like maxi kinda maxi retard stuff, but, like, he was saying how they had coffee and that there was, you know, they were offering coffee for Bitcoin, and it was like a thousand sats. He said he couldn't bring himself to he couldn't bring himself to do it. And my response to him was, like, if you were part of circular economy and you cared where that Bitcoin was going, you would not have that issue. You would you would wanna do that. Now if you're yeah. You're not gonna go to McDonald's paying Bitcoin and care that you got them Bitcoin. You're not gonna care about that.
But you're gonna care if your community is, you know, building. Right? You want you want these vendors to have Bitcoin. Yeah. Right? I paid for a cup of coffee in Bitcoin, and I I don't regret paying for it in Bitcoin. I just regret the cup of coffee because it was it sucked. It was gross. Yeah. So when I pay when I buy coffee from Otis Bittmeyer, I'm happy to pay Bitcoin for it. And, you know, interestingly enough, I remember when I met him almost it's like almost two years now. Yeah. He told me two years ago he wanted to target $1 an ounce. Right?
Mhmm. And, dude, you can't you cannot find a 16 ounce bag of coffee for $16. That's true. You're gonna pay $30 at this point. Right? Yep. But he's still like, I had the coffee at the meetup yesterday that he sent. It's still pretty much a dollar an ounce. And I don't even know if he's targeting that. Right? Still, it's just that's what it's what this allows. Right? It really does. Yeah. If you're the best of the best, people will buy it from you with their Bitcoin. I want Otis to have Bitcoin. Well, that's what he demands, and he can't because his coffee is really good. So we got off all track here, but, like, I you know, I, you know, I wonder if, like, Bitcoiners think more about scarcity than fish fans do. I don't know.
[00:22:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:22:46] Unknown:
Right? I mean, fish fans, we have had it taken away from us on multiple occasions.
[00:22:51] Unknown:
100%.
[00:22:54] Unknown:
You know, I remember going on high hash rate for the first time, and, Dan asked me, like, what is it it was like it was cheap almost plebs sloppy cheesy. Right? But, like, he said, what is your vision of hyperbitcoinization? And my answer was, I I think the best we do is that we end up like fish where nobody really cares, but we get to go to our shows. We get our thing. You know, we have what we want. We have what we need. Nobody cares that much about it, and that's the best scenario.
[00:23:38] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I was riding that wave for from 2009 to 2013. I was so happy to I had a job. I wasn't making a ton of money. I was getting by, and I was going to fucking a ton of fish shows. And it was just great because I I I I had lost it, you know, for five years.
[00:24:00] Unknown:
You know, this is gonna sound probably stupid to a lot of people, but I remember the moment I realized that I and my coworkers were making too much money. And I didn't know how much money they were making. I could just tell by their behavior that they were making too much money. Right. You know? You can just tell, okay. Something really shifted. And it was it was around o eight, o '9 when I started having that observation. Mhmm. You know? Where people cared more about keeping their jobs than actually, making a, like, making a lot of money for the company, which would be good for us personally. Yep. It's like, why do all that? I already have the job, and I'm already at the pay.
Why bother?
[00:24:46] Unknown:
Yep.
[00:24:48] Unknown:
Right? So that I mean, abundant to again, it's like, what's the plebslop quote? Like, when money is abundant, everything else is scarce? Yes. And when money is scarce, everything else is abundant? I mean Right. I do think these are these proverbs are worth delving into.
[00:25:13] Unknown:
Sure.
[00:25:14] Unknown:
I don't think it's you know, I think thinking about scarcity is, useful. You don't wanna get obsessed about it. Right. I don't think anybody even knows how this is gonna play out. Right? Correct. Bitcoin being scarce. You know, I wrote in my book I had to I took this out of my book, but I had a sentence in there that got edited out. The sentence was, I have a, I had a bloody nose this morning, and I have a tissue from it that has a bunch of blood on it. And it's the most scarce tissue in the world. Nobody else has it. It's not scarce. It's rare, I guess. It's like, you know, okay. Whatever. But, like fair pepper. There's more to life than scarce. Right? If it doesn't have value, what's matters what matters is whether it confers value or not. Right. Right? I mean, I don't know if you remember, Fish at the met not the met. Fish at the met twelve was it 12/03/1990 12/03 of sorry. 02/2019?
[00:26:19] Unknown:
That was the Sirius Sirius XM thing?
[00:26:23] Unknown:
Yes. Mhmm. Okay. Now that I remember the second they announced it, I almost got upset about it. I was like, dude, this is just gonna be the dumbest game in the world trying to get ticket for that. Yep. Right?
[00:26:35] Unknown:
Yep. What a great story.
[00:26:38] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, everybody who went got in somehow. If you were there, you got in. Right? And just for the listeners, the met the, you know, fish plays fish typical fish venue holds, like, 15,000 people. Yeah. Or more. And they're all sold out. Always sold out. Right? In Philly, the man, you know, a show with the man or the I mean, Fish will play the Philly Spectrum or whatever they do. Fargo. Yeah. Most I mean, that was they haven't done that since 02/2009. They just don't come around here in the wintertime. Right?
But they play Madison Square Garden up the street. What does that what does Madison Square Garden see? Like, 2021,
[00:27:22] Unknown:
'22?
[00:27:23] Unknown:
They'll play four straight nights. Each night is harder to get than the next. Yep. Right? So the now we're talking about a 3,000 seat theater.
[00:27:34] Unknown:
Like, maybe 3,000. Right? Yeah. 3,000 is a good number.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
It felt I like, it felt stupid. I was like, what the fuck are they doing? It felt fucking dumb. Everybody negotiated with themselves out of trying to get a ticket
[00:27:50] Unknown:
or, like, even going to the venue in search of one.
[00:27:55] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, thank god it was in, like, the most dangerous neighborhood in the country. Right. Maybe that's how they justified it. I ain't no no one's really gonna go no one's really gonna go down there.
[00:28:09] Unknown:
Now, did you get in? Did you go?
[00:28:12] Unknown:
I did. Wow. I went. I got in. I have a nice little trifecta of, ticket stubs from the Met that was, Trey from Ghost of the Forest. Yep. Sorry. Ghost of the Forest, fish, which was just so Ghost of the Forest was April of that year. Mhmm. Fish was, December of that year. And then 2021, it was Trey. Tab. So those are all three events that have sorry?
[00:28:45] Unknown:
Classic Tab. Right? That tour? Yeah. That was,
[00:28:49] Unknown:
full that was full tab. Oh, full tab. Okay. Yeah. So one of these days, I plan a frame. Like, I have, like, the little poster from the MET. I think everybody got one. It's like a little it's like a little weenie poster. You know? It's a mini one.
[00:29:03] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:29:04] Unknown:
But I think it's a cool you know, people framed it and put their ticket stub in it.
[00:29:09] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:29:11] Unknown:
I have a poster from the trade show, and then I got three ticket stubs that eventually I plan to throw. I mean, so it's you know, the my point my point is that is a scarce space. Yep. And it felt like it was gonna suck. And but you know what? Everyone who went down there got in anyway. I don't know. I
[00:29:33] Unknown:
I think anybody who really overthinks this shit is gonna end up screwing themselves up anyway. It's a great example of overthinking it and negotiating with yourself or saying, oh, it couldn't be me. Because I had a friend that went he he won I wanna say he he won lottery tickets. And I don't know if it was through the Fish, the band, or I know Cyrus was doing a promotion for the for those. And, I remember he came back and told the story. He's like, yeah. All the security on this on the sidewalk right before the show, if anybody was out there, they let him in. I was like, you gotta be kidding me.
[00:30:06] Unknown:
Crazy. Right? I mean, at least they I mean, I think everybody who got in, they they didn't get to see the whole show, but they by the second set, everybody who wanted to was in.
[00:30:18] Unknown:
Yes. That's a good point. I don't think it was the whole show. That's a good point. Yeah.
[00:30:25] Unknown:
So, like, back to then, like, we were talking about the bugle.
[00:30:30] Unknown:
Yeah. K.
[00:30:32] Unknown:
We so this past this past week, they, they said something. Now, look. You know, Richard Grieser is spending a lot of time on music right now. We have a lot of time and energy on music.
[00:30:50] Unknown:
Good.
[00:30:51] Unknown:
And it is good. It is good. So he's like, you can you can see the progression Mhmm. As he works through it. But it was I I guess it was Rod who said, there's no oh, no. It was Richard. There's no subversive music anymore. This is what he was saying. And I and I started yelling I started yelling at my phone just to, just to just to share. Well, he's been into he's been really into, like, Bob Dylan. Some he's been working on some covers of some pretty ball like, old old school baller, like, the real angry shit. Right? The like, the angry Dylan shit. Okay. It's like in one fucking a minor chord that's, you know, the whole song. You know? Right. Right.
So, like, that's where he's like, and I used to say that. And when I came into Bitcoin, okay, forget forget Bitcoin. When I when I when I started getting, like, Trump deranged, when I was in, like, the last decade Mhmm. I remember saying to myself, you know what? Like, where's the music right now? Right? Where's the music for this time? Doesn't exist. I remember just making that observation. Where is, like, the anthem of, you know, where where is the anthem of the disaffected? And that doesn't exist. Right? Right. And I'm like, man, it's gonna be amazing when it comes. Like, holy shit. Right? I just kept thinking to myself, man, this music whenever the music of this time comes, man, it's gonna be fucking awesome.
And it's not hasn't come. And I think that's what he's sort of saying. And when I came into Bitcoin too, it's like, where's the music here? Where's the music of Bitcoin? Because this is the real this is real protest. Yeah. It is. Right? But no one makes music. In fact, I I would I would say the closest thing I've seen was is really what the bugle was doing with AI.
[00:32:41] Unknown:
Right.
[00:32:43] Unknown:
And mostly because we all were in on we're we were just, we know. Like, we knew. We knew what it was. Right. You know? It wasn't a joke. It's just that we knew what it was. Okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
No. It's a good point because, you know, we we pointed out before in earlier rips of, like, you know, the scene that was fish early on. And, like, Bitcoin is a is a scene. Like like, it might be the scene right now.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Right. But there's no music for it. Correct. There's no music. It's missing music. And the the point that point Richard was making was that there's no subversive music where Mhmm. And so I read a book in you know what? Chris, this is a story. I listened I listened to this book on my way to Fenway Park in 2019. Okay. K. July it was like July fourth weekend or I don't remember. Right? Yeah. K. July 4 weekend, I'm driving up to Boston, listened to this book. It's called White by Brett Easton Ellis, who is well known. He's most well known for American Psycho.
[00:33:58] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:33:59] Unknown:
He wrote American Psycho, less than zero. You know, I had a couple bangers in there. Zero. Wow. I didn't know that was the same guy. Yep. Same guy. Right? And, you know, so once he had a Hollywood movie made out of his book, he was American Psycho was, like, the next one.
[00:34:13] Unknown:
Right.
[00:34:15] Unknown:
But the what I remember to this day him saying was that subversion in general is missing from our culture entirely. Like, when we were growing up, dude, like, fucking playing cards with naked ladies on it made us feel fucking subversive. Like, stupid shit like that. Yeah. It was not hard to feel this way. Right? It just wasn't that hard. And now, dude, you gotta be like a fucking pea you have to go so fucking far to feel you're subversive. Right? And, you know, so that is a little like, it's a little like, I remember being jarred by hearing that. Right? Like, it rang true.
And Yeah. You know, it rang true. But I won't you know, it's almost like, okay. So what do we do now? Right? So I guess conspiracy theories are subversive.
[00:35:14] Unknown:
They are.
[00:35:16] Unknown:
Right? It sounds like telling the truth is subversive in a certain way. Right? It is. It actually is. That's the the biggest the, like, the most subversive thing you can do is to call out false flags. Mhmm. Right? Nine eleven or Gen six. You know, anything with a date on it, you can Okay. Just say it's a false flag and that you'll feel the wrath.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
And Yes. And you'll you'll get that you'll get that subversive feeling. You'll get that rush. Yeah. They're like, oh, I'm going against the grain. Yeah.
[00:35:48] Unknown:
People are gonna be mad at me Yeah. For telling the truth. Right? So that okay. There's a good example of where it still exists. Right? Now in 2019, I was unaware of any of this shit. I was like the guy getting angry at people with Seth Rich theories and things like that.
[00:36:07] Unknown:
Right.
[00:36:08] Unknown:
You know, I was that guy, unfortunately. But, so it's not like it's totally absent, but the idea is, though, you know, there was a time where music was super subversive. Right? The time of Bob Dylan, I would say Jimi Hendrix.
[00:36:27] Unknown:
You know, maybe, like, the early days of fucking gangster rap and shit like that. Yeah. I mean, I would say, like, some of the like, I would I would think punk rock, the punk scene was pretty subversive, but it wasn't very pop it wasn't very popular. You know, and and I never got into that genre. I consider The subversion post punk rock. The subversion didn't get really that noticed.
[00:36:50] Unknown:
Like, South Park was super, super Yes. Right? You get calmly. Good point. Right? Like, in the even the Simpsons, dude. Like, this like, when, you know, when teachers are, like, protesting it okay. Right?
[00:37:03] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:37:04] Unknown:
You you know? In South Park what did South Park do? They kinda told the truth. Right? So They told the truth. That's right. A super, super, super duper subversive. Right? It was. You know, so but I you know, when Richard was saying there's no music, it's kinda true.
[00:37:23] Unknown:
Kinda true.
[00:37:26] Unknown:
But, obviously, I began to think about fish. Yes. Me too. And they knew I was gonna bring it up at some point. Yeah. Right? It was like no surprise when I brought it up. Right? They're like, oh, let me guess. You're ready to now hit throw fish in the mix. But, like, I think it's worth I think it's worth thinking about it. Yeah. Especially in the context of what we've talked about for 21 episodes leading up to now. Because if it's true like, it's not they weren't like, they were a little subversive. Right? They were like, our goofy, nerdy selves are gonna just do music, and it's and it's gonna work. We're gonna do narration.
We're gonna do whatever the fuck we want. We're gonna connect with fans. We're gonna do secret language. We're gonna all fall on the fucking floor and fuck with people. They really enjoyed fucking with people. We're gonna do that and it you know, this is us, and that's gonna it's gonna work. And, you know, I guess it evolved. People people have theories about how, like, when when live fish like, when a show is on live fish that fish would play some standard set. I don't know if I don't know how true these I don't know how true these things are. I I remember that. Yes. Yeah. Right? But people theorize people always theorize you know, people were theorizing always about there would be a big hit. There never was.
[00:38:52] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:38:53] Unknown:
And, you know, people just you know, there was a time where Phish really wanted it, but they didn't want it bad enough to Yeah. You know, really do what they had to do with like, they didn't want it bad enough to do what Huey Lewis did, and Huey Lewis didn't sell out or anything. But Huey Lewis told his band, this is our last shot, and every song needs to be radio friendly.
[00:39:16] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:17] Unknown:
And every song was a fucking hit on that album. Every song was a fucking hit. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, Phish never did that. Right? It never ever ever did that. In fact, you know, the one where everyone thought was gonna bust out, right, was Hoist, and everybody thought Sample was going to be that song. Yep. Sample in a Jar. Yep. Maybe maybe a good opener. You know? Maybe a good opener and closer. I could roll with that. You You know, certainly could certainly could be a closer spot. It's like one of my favorite guitar solos, by the way, of all the entire fish catalog was is actually the hoist album version of sample in a jar. Yep. I think people really noticed that it could be that that could have been the one. But you had records mailbox on that fucking album.
Right? Twenty seven seconds of Jonathan Frakes blowing into a fucking trumpet that he was incapable of reading the music that reading the horn charts that Fish created for him.
[00:40:16] Unknown:
I I didn't know that. I don't know that story. You know who Jonathan Frakes is. Right?
[00:40:21] Unknown:
Yeah. Dude, we covered this more on rock paper Bitcoin than we have here. It's unbelievable. Jonathan Frakes was, William t Riker on Star Trek the next generation.
[00:40:32] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:40:33] Unknown:
K. So that's you know the show, and Fish were huge fans of next gen. Okay. Huge fans. And they recorded hoist. So there was a documentary. You gotta have seen this. Trying to remember what it was called, but it was a documentary about the recording of Hoist. Okay. And it was, we have to attach it to the show notes because there's a YouTube for it. Yeah. I'll write it down. Dude, there was a fire. It was in LA. There was a fucking fire. They had to evacuate the fucking studio. It was wild. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. But it turned out that Jonathan Frakes, who played William t Riker, lived, like, next door to the studio they recorded.
And Fish put the word out that they would like they would they were like, come over, bring your trombone, you know, and they wrote a whole thing for him, porn charts, everything. Right? Mhmm. And for well, Frakes tells the story that he came over and he saw this music they had for him. He's like, I can't fucking play that. He didn't have the chops. He didn't have the chops. Have the chops. Yeah. Didn't have the chops, and they're like, it's cool, dude. Just you know what? Let's just roll, like, forty seconds and just play whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah. And it became Rikers mailbox. Got it. It's total cacophony of Yes. Him and his trombone. It's good. It's it's a great story. You know, like, next generation, it's like he you would think he you know, he is mister fucking trombone. Right? Right. Like, Picard plays his little recorder, and he's like a you know, you would guess he's quite good at it because he dedicates so much time to it. Right? Riker is in fucking 10 forward playing trombone all the time for crowds of people, and I think it's almost like fish bought into it. They're like, dude, of course, you can come over. Mhmm. Of course, you could play this. They were so proud to give them this piece of music. Like, yeah, of course, you could fucking play. And you play for everybody on your fake show. Oh, you're right. And then, you know, Jonathan and Jonathan Frakes just, like, made it up. It's all fake. You know what I mean? Guy.
You know the meme where he's on he's on some other show where they reveal, they just reveal the thing, you know, that they made something up. And so a big meme it's a big meme of, like, John and Frakes always saying it's fake. We made it up. Totally fake. That's funny. That's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgot where I was going with this. Oh, the the, like, fans thought that was gonna be some big moment, some launch moment with that album and, like but they never made they never had an album where like, RIFT might be the closest one. Right? Yeah. Where, like, all the songs are just, like all the songs could have been they're pretty friendly.
Right? There's nothing there's nothing offensive. Maybe RIFT itself is, like, the most offensive
[00:43:31] Unknown:
to the senses. You know? Like, you have to gotta be on that ride. Right? And same in that cluster of albums is, you know, Long Boy was one you could just hit play. And, like, I remember having it on in my I came home for one summer from college. I was probably, like, 20. And I just put it on in my room. I just Okiepaw ceremony?
[00:43:47] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I know. But, like, you can't like, you know, nobody think like, you put Okeypaw Ceremony on an album, and you're just saying you're telling the record company, we're not serious about having a hit. True.
[00:44:01] Unknown:
You know what I mean? Those albums, like, even my mom would be like, what what were you just playing? I was I was really good. Like, you know, we're like, it was, like, mom friendly, long boy.
[00:44:10] Unknown:
But you're not Huey Lewis with his back against the wall. I
[00:44:14] Unknown:
know your name.
[00:44:16] Unknown:
And, like, Hoist would have been that album. Right? Hoist was, I think, the fourth Hoist was that album. Moment. Right? It would have been that album, and they fucking have Breck Breckner's mailbox on it. It's like insanity. Right? It's insanity. So what I'm saying is Phish never did that. Right? Phish never made that choice. Right? They never they never did, like, did what they had to do, but they cared. They wanted it, but they wanted to do it their way. That's right. They cared just not enough. So my I guess this all goes to this all goes to say that fish could never shake that streak of subversion where they had you know, like, they did a song, like, on hoist. They did, and they covered it so well in the documentary.
But, you know, the song demand?
[00:45:04] Unknown:
Of course.
[00:45:06] Unknown:
Love it. But Mhmm. The song on the album is, like, nine minutes long, but the reality is the song is one minute long. And it's about a guy who gets into his car, and he gets in his car and pops a cassette in, and it's a live version of split open to melt for eight minutes. Yeah. And then he ends up in a car accident. And Yep. Back then, they got into a real car accident to get the sound.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
No.
[00:45:29] Unknown:
Yes. Are you serious? They weren't in it themselves, but they had a car. Crashed a car? They crashed a car to record the sound. BMW?
[00:45:37] Unknown:
Is it the BMW on on the cover of the Sickat disc by chance? Is it that Maybe. It's very possible. Right? I have that t shirt, and it's Because voice
[00:45:45] Unknown:
you into a tree. I'm sure everybody knows this fun fact. Right? But the only, song on Rift the only song that's not in the cover is the horse. Right. And Hoist is the next album, and it's a horse lifted up. Oh, that's brilliant. I never drew that connection. That's really good. Because you went So it's very possible that there's this lag in album covers that are just, like, unfinished business from the prior from the prior album. Right? Right. But, like, the the you know, it's who who the fuck like, who would do this? Right? Who would have a song that's really a song that was on another album, but a live version through a car that crashes when it's, like, your fourth album and it's the one the record company is really fucking leaning on you? Yeah. Like, this is it, dude. Like, this is, like, we're and Fish did not give a fuck. They really didn't care. No. Well, that's, well, that's the thing. Like, this idea of, like, of, like, I think they sorry. But I think they I really think they thought it was gonna work anyway.
[00:46:50] Unknown:
Okay. Because, you know, if if you put that if you told that story in front of a a psychologist or psychiatrist, they would they would they would label that as self sabotage.
[00:47:00] Unknown:
They would. And it's absolutely not what it was. I think they just had so much belief that, you know what? They think they thought, like, you know what? These songs are so good. One one of them is gonna catch. Just trust us. And, dude, there's YouTube videos of them going on MTV and doing interviews and being part of all those fucking MTV parties Yeah. With all the teenagers around.
[00:47:25] Unknown:
And hated it.
[00:47:27] Unknown:
But they did it. They did all that shit. Yeah. They did it. They checked the boxes.
[00:47:32] Unknown:
I just feel like the more I the more we talk about this, the more I think of and and I I always go to Trey, but it's the whole band, Fishman in particular, who would have been like, you know what? Like, you know, when the record label's being like, oh, come on, guys. Like, this is your this is your big chance. This, you know, voice does you know, this is this this is it. And they're like, you know what? Fuck this. We're putting this fucking shitty track on here just to fuck with these people because fuck Fishman Fishman is the human
[00:48:01] Unknown:
embodiment of subversion. Yeah. John Fishman is the well, I mean, and, you know, it's it's I guess, it's sad what he turned out to be, I guess.
[00:48:12] Unknown:
Why?
[00:48:15] Unknown:
Fucking politician.
[00:48:17] Unknown:
Oh, I mean
[00:48:19] Unknown:
I'm just saying.
[00:48:20] Unknown:
I didn't know that. I I I really try to stay still He's, like, dedicated
[00:48:25] Unknown:
he's dedicated his life guy. He's a birdie. He's dead no. He's dedicated his life outside of fish to politics. I didn't know that. He's an alder he was an alderman. I don't even know what a fucking alderman was. I don't know what that is. There's, a song called Alderman's Yard on a Woody Gordon album. Alright. Yeah. Pretty badass. It is. It's a great Maybe it's Andel Andelman's Yard? Maybe it's Yard. Yeah. Well, Fishman's an alderman in Maine, and his claim to fame in politics now is championing this thing called rank choice voting.
[00:48:58] Unknown:
Fuck. Is this some socialist shit?
[00:49:02] Unknown:
It's basically, you know, it's it's on the surface. No. Like, on the surface, it's like, yeah. Okay. Rank choice voting. Like, okay. It's like you revote once you throw out, you you you basically you don't just vote for somebody. You vote with a rank order. You whittle it down. Right? Well, you rank order them. You say, this is my first choice, and this is my second choice. Gotcha. I don't know. That seems like a reasonable thing to do And so want. You know what I mean? It all does seem reasonable. I just think it's sad that such a great man of subversion has dedicated his life to politics.
[00:49:41] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:49:42] Unknown:
Right? When he could be just fucking shit up. You know?
[00:49:48] Unknown:
I remember in 2016, that was when Bernie had his run. Right? Was that '16?
[00:49:53] Unknown:
Yeah. '15 really was '15 is when it is when Bernie made in. Look. Bernie Bernie Sanders was the mayor of Burlington in 1983 when Fish started. And That's the impression. The fact of the matter is Bernie Sanders as a politician in 1983, had something to do with Burlington, Vermont being a good place for bars to exist Right. And for a lot of for opportunities for Phish to come up. I mean, if that's all part of the immaculate conception of how this band evolved.
[00:50:29] Unknown:
Okay. Okay. There's no That was because I There's no way around that. Yeah. I saw John did a a live appearance once in Philadelphia during that period, and I was like, oh, cool. I'll get, you know, go go see John Fishman. But as But it was surrounding it was surrounding Bernie Sanders, and I was like,
[00:50:47] Unknown:
As Trump deranged as I was in 2015, I hated Bernie Sanders. I fucking hated him. And I actually really I still do. I mean, I still I thought he was really the guy that made class warfare Mhmm. Like a a popular movement. Yeah. You know, like, I kinda had my suspicions that Obama was really really gonna be good at that. He He probably would have been if he focused on it more, but Bernie was the one that made it that fucking made that. I hated him. I fucking I I just thought it was so I I, like, to me, that was like the end of civilization.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
Right.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
And then I've the way I viewed it was that basically, Trump just picked up the baton and ran and just kept running with it. And it's like, you know, dude, I don't know how you, like I don't know. I was like, I don't know how you people, you know, love Trump, but yet like also like, you know, or dislike Bernie Sanders or, you know Mhmm. Some part of that never made sense to me. But, again, I was fucking my my head was in the wrong place at the time. Right. Right. And Well, I know there was a there was a surprising
[00:51:52] Unknown:
dynamic during that election that there were there were people that were torn between Bernie and Trump. Like, I wanna say it was Nolan. It was Nolan, had had mentioned that.
[00:52:03] Unknown:
And I was Nolan is all signal, man. And, well, I don't know how Nolan was in 2015, but, you know, dude's a g. Yeah. I caught you. Oh, he's from Vermont too. He I found I I found out today he's from Vermont. And I actually Yeah. I texted him this morning, by the way, and I asked if he's ever thought about Van Fish in relation to Bitcoin. And so we'll see if he gets I'll see if he gets back to me. I met him I met him in Canada last week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned. That's really cool. I I had He's already regretting giving me his contact info because I'm badgering him about fish now.
[00:52:35] Unknown:
He's like, oh, one of these people? Oh, man. So go I'm trying to get away from these people. What the fuck?
[00:52:40] Unknown:
I moved up into the mountains to get away from these assholes. I moved to Canada, dude, to yeah. I moved all the way up fucking into the mountains of Quebec to get the fuck away from these people. Like, the one place I knew they couldn't hurt, like, they they couldn't find me. Right. Yeah. That's so funny. But, I gotta shoot my shot, man. I got I gotta shoot the shot.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
Yeah. But I, I caught that, that that link that, that Shadrach had posted in the in the Telegram group, and then I I just did a a search in, like, Spotify to find another podcast. You know, something he didn't like June. We had a show, but I learned he he explained his whole 2015 thing of being, like, Bernie or Trump. And I was like, woah. I never had heard that that being a a common, like,
[00:53:28] Unknown:
decision. Well, they can they were they were pop they were the populists. Right. People don't associate Bernie with populism, but that's all he was.
[00:53:37] Unknown:
That's what communism is. It's a form of populism.
[00:53:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I think Trump is populist without being necessarily communist. It's just it's just on the other side of the political spectrum. You know? I wasn't a fan of populism in general. I'm not. I'm generally not a fan of it. Right. I'm not not a fan of, like, low signal rile everybody up. You know? Yeah. Easy answers. And that's what like, I think Bernie brought in I didn't wanna make this political, but, like No. You know what? I mean, look. The fact is Fish has outlasted Bernie Sanders in their relevance.
You know, Bernie Sanders might have been a fine mayor in 1983, but he became a sort of a populist loser in 02/2015. Fucking a fucking easy answering machine. Fuck that shit, dude. I mean, you know, at least be funny. He's not funny. Like, at least be fucking funny if you're gonna be that guy. Exactly.
[00:54:42] Unknown:
You're gonna be a man of the people. Make me laugh. There's nothing funny about that, man. Yeah. And the reason why, you know, Phish outlasted them is because, they never they never I said this maybe at episode one or two of of this podcast of, like, they never pretended to to think the fans cared what they thought politically, socially, or anything. They never used Well They're they never used it as a platform.
[00:55:05] Unknown:
The reality is Trey just never cared. And it's the reason Phish has lasted this long that without fights in the band is because Trey is 95% of the band when it comes to the presence, the decisions.
[00:55:22] Unknown:
I mean, I disagree with that entirely. But What's that? I disagree with that take entirely. Okay.
[00:55:29] Unknown:
Go ahead.
[00:55:30] Unknown:
No. I just think that, you know, he was the the voice box of the band. The guitar players are naturally the front men of any band, of any rock band. But I got no indication that he drove the decision making, and nor do I think that any member of the band is is any more or less irreplaceable than the other. Well, let me specify anyone. Go ahead. There's it's unlikely that they all agreed all the time.
[00:56:04] Unknown:
It's it's fairly likely that they all agreed never to, you know, never sell out. They all probably agreed on that. Right. The reason why it worked is because Trey agreed is my point. If Trey was not on there refutable. We have no evidence. I know. I know. I know that. I know that. But that's my that would be my statement. Understood. I would say a part player. So let's just let's just keep it real. If I'm saying that if Trey had some ambition that was counter to what the band wanted, right, it would have been a problem. Yeah. And I don't know that it would have been such a problem with any of the other members of the band. I understand where you're coming from. You understand what I'm saying. Right? I do. I do. And that's why, like, oh, you know what? Here's a nice little nugget of lost material.
Should we do this? Nice nugget of lost material. Okay. It's a common misconception. It's a common misconception that 50 of fish is Jewish.
[00:57:08] Unknown:
That that that's my conception. I'm a I'm a commoner.
[00:57:11] Unknown:
Some common misconceptions because two of the members of the band are Jewish.
[00:57:15] Unknown:
Correct.
[00:57:16] Unknown:
It turns out only two and a half percent of the band is Jewish because Trey is 95% of the band.
[00:57:24] Unknown:
Oh my god. This upsets me so much.
[00:57:31] Unknown:
We're we're we're really tempting the gods to fuck this episode up again.
[00:57:35] Unknown:
What I I don't quite the contrary. I think we are now destined for for greatness. Now that we're Destined for greatness.
[00:57:44] Unknown:
This was so this was one listeners, dear listeners, you know, we lost a couple episodes. So now I'm remembering some of the things that we had said that we I thought was great content. It was good. This was a great run we were on when, Jason and I were both baked doing the Lake Satoshi episode, and somehow it just came up. Yeah. And we were we thought we thought it was fucking genius. It works. Yes. And it's not the math isn't even right because it really would be, you'd have to divide that 5%, two thirds of that 5%, and it like, that doesn't divide very well. The math isn't even right. He also has a math podcast everywhere. I do have a math podcast. Beyond the math. Cover this.
[00:58:27] Unknown:
Motivate the math. Oh, motivate the math. I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's beyond it's beyond me. That's what I'm I'm projecting.
[00:58:34] Unknown:
You're confusing it with Tom Marshall's, beyond not Tom Marshall's. It's the Osiris Beyond the Pond podcast, which is, like, a podcast dedicated to non fish music.
[00:58:46] Unknown:
Oh, Beyond the Pond and there's Beneath the Scales. God, I'm under the scales. There's under the scales.
[00:58:52] Unknown:
That's Tom's podcast. I'm a mess. And then yeah. Then, like, they have a beyond the pond. Dare anyone dare anyone decide to listen to any other music.
[00:59:05] Unknown:
Right? How dare you?
[00:59:09] Unknown:
I'm being dared to list I'm being dared to go to a King Giz concert by our buddy Grafton.
[00:59:15] Unknown:
I would I would love to fall on that sword for you, my friend. I would love to do that.
[00:59:20] Unknown:
It's fucked up, dude.
[00:59:22] Unknown:
Grafton tried to kill me, man. He's trying to ruin my life. He might be. But you know what? My best friends have tried to kill me. So and we're still friends.
[00:59:31] Unknown:
Story is I'm going to Prague Yes. For, like, the biggest opportunity of my fucking life right now They're great. Which is to I got a speaking role at this, Bitcoin corporate day.
[00:59:45] Unknown:
You know? Talk about selling out. It's excellent. Oh, no. Stop it. That's not selling out. It's all good. Actually, we haven't talked about selling out today at all.
[00:59:54] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I have no I have no, I have no issue with a I don't care what people perceive me as. You know? I did write this book.
[01:00:05] Unknown:
You did.
[01:00:07] Unknown:
And it and I've been grinding, dude. Grinding to get an opportunity for the fucking talk. Couple years now. Yeah. Understood. Whoever you know, anyone else is welcome to invite me to talk at their conference. These guys did. Exactly. These guys did, and it's a huge opportunity. And, dude, it's like, I plan this I plan the trip so that I get there. I'd have a day to sleep, the fucking flight off. Go kill it the next day. Right? Mhmm. Grafton comes in, and he's like, dude, fucking King Giz is it ends like the day I land. It's the day it's the night before. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like it would fucking kill me. It's yeah. It's it you're like, I can't fucking do it, man. I can't do it, dude. This is like Come rage with me, bro.
Not only that. I'm I'm not built that way. Like, I am just not built to push it like that. You know? I'm Yeah. I mean 51 years old. Yeah. Exactly. I'm not a big bro. I'm not a drug guy. I'm not, like, I'm not a big, like, oh, well, I can just drug over it, you know, and just still fucking kill it. That's not gonna happen, dude. This is not a, dude, this is not a 1998 story, dude. This is a 2004 story.
[01:01:20] Unknown:
That's right.
[01:01:21] Unknown:
You know, this is the story about how I ruined my fucking my I ruined everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't a Raleigh '98 story. This is this is two jobs. Yeah. How oh, you know, guess what? I go on stage and I bust out fucking terrapin and everyone fucking love like, I just you know, this is not that this is not that's not how that fucking movie's gonna end. That's That's fun shit, dude. That that was, like, whole I mean, I it's funny, dude. It's like, I must care about Grafton a lot because I, like, really felt like, yeah. You're considered pressure. I felt the fucking pressure, man. You feel you feel you feel the gravitational pull. There's mass there. Mhmm. The gravitational pull.
He's like Rodney Dangerfield, the way people talk about Rodney Dangerfield in the fucking, back in the eighties stand ups. Like, the New York stand ups, they were like, dude, whenever Rodney Dangerfield was in town, dude, we would make sure we were we were far the fuck away. Because anyone who was, like, you know, trying to stop doing drugs, you know, was, like, wanted no wanted nothing to do with New York if Rodney was in town. And he'd be mostly because he had this quality, you couldn't say no to him. That was right. It wasn't like he was, like, a terror. Right. It's just that he was the guy you couldn't say no to.
[01:02:39] Unknown:
You know? Very, very persuasive guy, I'm sure, especially on a head full. Just couldn't say fucking no to the to the guy. Yeah. I know. I mean, I would love to party with Rodney. He'd be he'd be legit for sure.
[01:02:51] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. Ask him about fucking, what's the soccer movie he did? Ladybugs. Ladybugs. And his great line from that movie? I don't know. I got a lot of balls.
[01:03:06] Unknown:
My wife loves that movie.
[01:03:08] Unknown:
That's funny. So, yeah, that's a bit of what's going on for us. I look. I I wanna I I wanna reemphasize this subversiveness of fish. We we what we didn't really cover was, like so I'll just mention it.
[01:03:27] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:03:32] Unknown:
If I'm right, Everyone's like, who the fuck cares? If I'm right that the gods, the spirits really were communicating through this band, and they were communicating all kinds of things. But among you know, using them as ciphertext. Right? Talking like a band that sounds like nonsense to actually like the Utopia comic book. Right? Oh, we didn't nobody knows what the fuck I'm talking about because that episode did not release. Nobody knows the reference of unless you hear heard me mention it on rock paper Bitcoin. Yeah. But unless they're using fish as, like, the fucking decoder ring, dressed up like a nonsensical, you know, group of idiots singing about Golgi apparatus.
[01:04:22] Unknown:
Right.
[01:04:25] Unknown:
I mean, there's nothing more subversive than that.
[01:09:24] Unknown:
When I asked the manager, could I go home? Because we had a off day. So he said, yeah. So I took some LSD at the airport because I knew where it would hit me. I'd be in my own in my little area and I'd know where to go. So that's how I got to my friend's girlfriend's house. She said, what's wrong with you? I said, my house is at Georgia Park. The next day, which I thought was the next day, she told me, you better get up. You gotta go pitch. I said, pitch? I pitch tomorrow. Hell, what are you talking about? Because I had got up in the middle of the morning and took some more acid. She grabbed the paper, brought me the sports page, and showed me. Boom.
I said, oh, wow. What happened to yesterday? She said, I don't know, but you better get you better get to that airport. Now this was in the seventies, and greens was Dexamil. That was, the drug of choice back then was a stimulant. Over 90% of major league was using Dexamil when I was playing. And when I got to the game, there was a lady down there in San Diego used to always have the Benny's for me, Bentadrine, which is another stimulant. I went out to the in the dugout and reached up because she was standing over the rail. She always stood over the rail and had a pretty little gold pouch. So I got the Benny's, went on back in the clubhouse, took them, the game started and the miss started, misty rain.
So all during the game was a little missed. The opposing team and my teammates, they knew I was high, but they didn't know what I was high on. Because they they had no idea what LSD was other than what they see on TV with the hippies. I didn't see the hitters. All I could tell was if there was on the right side or the left side. The catcher put tape on his fingers so I could see the signals. We had a rookie on the team at that particular time named Dave Cash, and he kept saying after the first inning, he said, you got a no no going. No hit it. I said, yeah. Right. And I looked.
Then around the fourth inning, he'd say it again. Got a no no going. I looked. Yep. But I could also feel the pressure from other players wanting to tell him to shut up. It's a superstition thing where you're not supposed to say nothing if somebody's throwing a no hitter. There were times when the ball was hit back at me. I jumped because I thought it was coming fast, but the ball was coming slow. Third baseman come by and grab the ball and threw somebody out. I never caught a ball from the catcher with two hands because I thought that was a big old ball.
And then sometimes it looks small. One time I covered first base, and I caught the ball, and I tagged the base all in one motion. I said, oh, I just made a touchdown. I didn't pay no attention to the to the to the score. You know? I'm trying to get the bat batters out. You know? I'm throwing a crazy game. I'm hitting people, walking people, throwing balls in the dirt. They're going everywhere. Now we've called for the. We've moved to the bottom of the ninth on a no hitter leading two nothing. It was easier to pitch with the LSD because I was so used to medicating myself. That's the way I was dealing with the fear of failure. The fear of losing, the fear of winning.
It's just that it was part of the game, you know? You get to the major leagues and you say, I I got to stay here. What do I need?
[01:13:06] Unknown:
Everybody in our bullpen is standing and walking around nervously. They wanna run and grab Doc. Now two balls, two strikes, and here's the pitch. Strike three. He got it. No hitters. They're going after him. He got it. Got it. They're Marvin Doc Emmis on a no hitter.
[01:13:43] Unknown:
You got
[01:13:44] Unknown:
it.
Yeah, you're a golf player, right? You get that? Yeah, yeah. I I was I was a tennis guy and so people used to people stole that tennis people stole that saying Oh, grip it and rip it? Grip it and rip it. Yeah. And do you know who came up with that? I don't. Was that John Daly. Patty Shack. Oh, John Daly. That's awesome.
[00:00:43] Unknown:
Duwenda, nineteen ninety five PGA championship drunk.
[00:00:48] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. He should be a Bitcoin icon somehow.
[00:00:52] Unknown:
He really should.
[00:00:53] Unknown:
Because he's so many memes. You know? He's just part of so many fucking memes. You know what the fish version of John Daly is, really?
[00:01:06] Unknown:
I mean, I would I would jump towards Fishman, but go ahead.
[00:01:09] Unknown:
No. Like, the athlete that would be like, the athlete that would most represent this culture is, Doc Ellis. Have you heard ever heard that name? I've heard the name, but I'm not Yeah. We're putting this shit in the show notes that Doc Ellis is famous for pitching a no hitter on asset.
[00:01:31] Unknown:
I know this story now that you now that you say that.
[00:01:36] Unknown:
You you you know the story. It's a and one of the first videos I ever saw on YouTube was it was an animated background to him telling the story. What's the story? Say it for me. The animation is perfect. The story is he, well, you know, he the story is this. He was constantly doing drugs all the time. He had people in every basically, back in the seventies, greenies, amphetamines, there was always, like, that person. You just go you would show up to the ballpark and get your greenies. Right? Get your amps. And, I'm pausing because you we feel like we have a technical issue right now, and I don't know. It's okay. I'm gonna power through this.
You're frozen. So
[00:02:26] Unknown:
Yeah. We do.
[00:02:29] Unknown:
Anyhow, I'm gonna power through this. So he has an off day, and somebody gives him you know, on his off day, somebody just gave him some acid, and he took it. And just I guess part of the story was, like, he was just told, no, dude. You're pitching today. You know? This ain't your off day. You're fucking pitching today. You we're going to the ballpark right fucking now. And he's like, oh, shit. Okay. And, he goes to the ballpark, and he's like, oh, first thing I did at the ballpark was find my greenies. And, because I knew I was gonna need them.
Otherwise, this was gonna be you know, there's he he was saying how they were, like, there were times where the ball was, like, fucking just 10 feet big and, like, with a catcher with would throw it to him, and he was diving out of the way, like, diving out of the way of the fucking ball. Yeah. Yeah. He said the catcher had to wear tape on his fingers so that he could see the signs. You know? And, just the whole thing is fucking hilarious. And then he said, like, in the fourth inning of the game, somebody somebody kept going up to him and saying, you got a no no. You got a no no. And, you know, it's like the cardinal sin in baseball is you're not supposed to tell the pitcher, but he's like, I'm sorry. He's like, I don't know what the fuck was going on.
Yeah. It's he's narrating the like, I am giving you the spirit of how he narrated the story. You know? Like, he narrated it like it's the greatest moment of his life, and it's, like, the greatest time he's ever had. And, it's pretty fucking legendary. I think anybody who's ever, like, done acid has gotta be has gotta tip your hat to this motherfucker.
[00:04:07] Unknown:
Yeah. No doubt. And, you know, John Daly famously said, he's like, it's it's hard to be nervous over a 10 footer to win to win the PGA when you're drunk.
[00:04:16] Unknown:
Maybe he had a little bit of that too. Like, he the man just couldn't relate that to you. What are they saying golf? The hardest part of the course to navigate is the space in between your ears?
[00:04:26] Unknown:
Yeah. It is very mental. I think Tiger made that one famous. But,
[00:04:31] Unknown:
Did he? Yeah. Good shit. Shit,
[00:04:33] Unknown:
dude. I know. I'm I'm I'm I'm the biggest tiger hater that that there there ever
[00:04:38] Unknown:
was. We're supposed to like him. I mean, he was good. I know.
[00:04:42] Unknown:
He fucked. Not a popular take. Not a popular take.
[00:04:46] Unknown:
You know, he just got all corporate co opted. You know? So, like, you know, John Daly is the Fish character, not Tiger Woods. You know? Like, Don Daly is the was like a porcupine. It's like Fish was a fucking porcupine. You know? When they were coming up and trying to make it, they just had this they had the the spiny things, and it's like they just looked like, dude, don't go near this band. Yep. Totally. This is this is goofy shit. Dare I say dare I say subversive.
[00:05:21] Unknown:
Oh, is it word word of the last couple of days?
[00:05:25] Unknown:
It is a word of the last couple of days.
[00:05:28] Unknown:
Are you referring to the bugle? Yeah. Yeah. So, It's
[00:05:33] Unknown:
hard to know what people are hearing. I'm sorry. Like, it's hard to know what episodes are public and which ones are subscriber only. Yeah. I listen to all of them, and, I have to tell you guys, the subscriber only shit is now starting to it's starting to bang hard. Yeah. I got phone. The interview with Mars was on was incredible. I'm almost, like, happy that people who don't subscribe don't get it. Yeah. They don't get to hear it.
[00:06:01] Unknown:
And I was subscribed, and then I I, I pulled out. And then I saw the Mars episode, and I was because I I know Mars pretty well. National Geographic. I might have to I might have to sign back up for that one.
[00:06:15] Unknown:
Dude, who's Mars? Like, what's the fish equivalent of Mars in the flick fish scene? I just like how don't even you know, it's just, the guy is just, like, smart. You know? Mhmm. Just a smart motherfucker who understands the social game. Yeah. I don't know if there's an equivalent. You know? Just
[00:06:36] Unknown:
we're lucky to have him. Yeah. And we're lucky he's on our side. He's a sneaky, smart kinda guy too. Like, he's a you know, it's he's unassuming. Let me put it that way. I just like I just like him. He's a good character. Likable. Very likable.
[00:06:49] Unknown:
Maybe he's, you know, maybe he's sorta like Jesse Jarno, you know, where he's gonna write a book one of these days and, you know, no one's gonna see him coming. But he's gonna, like you know what I mean? Intellectually, like, no one's gonna see him coming, and he's gonna snipe everybody.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I, I always appreciate people people that are like that that, you know, a lion doesn't have to tell you he's a lion kind of people.
[00:07:18] Unknown:
Yeah. Okay. Well, we had this episode on rock paper Bitcoin episode 75, which was, that's the exact quote business cat said, and I got I got, I clack I had to clack back on that one. Okay. But, you know, that but the context for that conversation was that, the context was that when you're reaching for greatness, you need to tell people. And if you don't, really, the only voices that get heard from are the dipshits who think they're great. Yeah. I think that's a lot of people. I think At some point, a lion needs to say, lion in the house.
[00:08:03] Unknown:
I would love to, extend this this idea a little bit. I think this is I think we touched on something we're talking about. Talk about subversive, dude. Calling your shot is fucking subversive. Right? It is. And it is a valid approach and especially in western society where, like, I I have this joke with my wife. Like, people are like, oh, I'm type a. I'm like, oh, so you're type asshole? Is that what you're telling me? Like, this idea this idea that extroversion or being a bonnet China shop being very aggressive is rewarded in western in western especially in in, you know, capitalist style economies.
And that is true. They do get rewarded. But like a lot of perverted incentives in in fiat land, I think it's a very fiat way to be.
[00:08:53] Unknown:
It's a function of the Dunning Kruger effect. Right? Do we know should we know what the Dunning Kruger effect is?
[00:09:02] Unknown:
Of course.
[00:09:03] Unknown:
Yep. Right? For the audience, since you guys are all morons, you guys then you guys clearly already know what it is, ironically. Yeah. But we'll say it's we'll say it. We'll we'll state it anyway, dear listener. In case, you know, I mean, you know, we might have an artist like Mike Gordon listening one of these days and, you know, what the fuck is that?
[00:09:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:09:28] Unknown:
I have this idea that Mike Gordon doesn't know anything that everybody else knows. He's like in a completely different dimension in his knowledge system. We never hear from him. We never really know what the fuck he knows. But That's true. You know? Anyhow, Dunning Kruger effect is this phenomena where incompetent people tend to be more vocal, and they don't know how incompetent they are. So they speak of, you know, they talk great shit about themselves. And competent people don't call them on it because they don't competent people don't think people would talk shit. Competent people are like, hey. They must know what they're fucking talking about.
Right. And so you have this kind of effect where only these incompetent fucking rubes are the ones, you know, go touting off on themselves, and they're dominating the conversation of society. And it's almost like this is all you see. And I feel like we we live in this world of influencers. You know, I say that pejoratively. Mhmm. This world of people who are kinda like you know, they're not the smart the smart people aren't speaking up. Right? Because a lion doesn't have to say he's a fucking lion. And, they're not speaking up, and so we don't hear from them. We don't hear from them, like, nearly enough. And Yeah. Dude, even when we do hear from them, these like, these people have, like, no followers, no engagement.
Right? Nobody you know, they get they get totally obliterated by the algo. And you have to be like us, like, on the ground doing hand to hand combat to fucking meet these people. Yeah. See a guy like Mars, dude. You go look up how many followers Mars has. And, dude, he's great. I know. He's got great you know? He's fantastic. Yep. And he has probably he I I would guess under 2,000 followers on Twitter. A 100%. Yep. Right? Somebody who would be called criminally under followed.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:11:27] Unknown:
You know? So, like, my point and so so I, you know, I I'm starting to think that it's important for people it's important for everybody to bloviate about themselves. And then let's just because then that's how we get some of the smart ones in the conversation.
[00:11:50] Unknown:
Otherwise, you it's just the world stays the same. Yeah. I mean, I I think and like I said, I think I think your perspective is more valid than mine because it's been empirically proven to be correct more than my approach, which is, you know, the idea that self importance is the root of suffering.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
Yeah. But guess what? You're right. Self importance is the root is is a root of suffering?
[00:12:20] Unknown:
It's one of the main, yeah, one of the main ones. And Per the Yeah. But, like, at least, we're not,
[00:12:26] Unknown:
like, we're not put on this earth to avoid suffering. We may not even be put on this earth to be happy.
[00:12:36] Unknown:
We're on put I mean Well, that's very contrary to all the ancient wisdom traditions.
[00:12:45] Unknown:
That suffering is inevitable. To live is to suffer. You will suffer. That's it. Don't worry about you. Don't worry about that. You're grounded in Buddhism. Right? And it's like to be a human being is to suffer. Well To to live is to suffer. The human condition. So then that would imply in some way that it's like self importance is part of who we are. You know? You know how many times I've said on this podcast, like, what like, I get amazed when I listen to fucking I listen to tapes from, like, 1991 or 1992, and I am amazed at, like, how how did how is Trey so sure this is gonna work?
And then he finds out well, everyone was. No. He was. He was. He was sure, but he was. Yeah. I mean, I don't And not only was he sure, but, like, I I think I referenced an interview with Brad Sands recently. Brad Sands said, we all fucking knew. Yeah. We all knew in 1991 this was gonna fly. We all everyone fucking knew it. Like, we all everyone believed in Trey. Trey was a legitimate fucking superstar, just as a like a magnetic personality. And it's just everyone somehow everyone
[00:13:59] Unknown:
knew. But that's I mean, Trey's a terrible example to to prove your point in the sense that if if if Trey was a modern person that I'm kind of, I don't know, describing here, this this I don't know. People that that that boast that market themselves very well and are able to find either, you know, career success, monetary success, however you wanna describe it. He would have been on the radio talking about how great the band was, and he would have then made concessions and played the game in a way, and he would have made compromises on the ethos of the band. And and then Fishwood would agree what they
[00:14:40] Unknown:
were. They were saying how great they were, though. Every time they took the stage and he did some fucking narration about some stupid land on the other side of the mountains. Okay? That act of subversion can only be interpreted as an act of self importance.
[00:15:05] Unknown:
I I'm not It's not a shallow thing. But It's not like a shallow thing is what I'm saying. Yeah. But the band had 2,000 followers. You know what I mean? They didn't have 200,000 followers. They didn't they didn't they didn't do things that that were would have been necessary for them to have 200,000 followers. Because that wasn't what they did, though. Because what they did was they they said how great they were.
[00:15:27] Unknown:
They kept going. And then, eventually, they had 5,000 and then, eventually, 10,000. And then, eventually, they're being covered by ABC on New Year's Eve as the fish with 70,000 people see coming just to see them. You know, most most people driving for days and days and days with no opening act. Right? Eventually, they they got the following. And Yeah. But that's only because they Dude, I was just in Canada for calling. Hold on. I was just in Canada where we did a whole episode about how Phish didn't just didn't break from Canada. Right? But everybody knows who the fuck they are. Right? I talked to anyone I talked to in Bitcoin, eventually, I asked if they know who Phish is. Everybody fucking knows who they are,
[00:16:15] Unknown:
Eventually. And most people think that it's it's it's it's it's terrible. Like I don't agree with that. And the most if you're a musician,
[00:16:26] Unknown:
you're like, yeah. They're they're talented.
[00:16:28] Unknown:
Most people are like, oh, you're into fish? Oh, that could what are you in a cult? I don't think most people It's very it's very much like that in that regard.
[00:16:38] Unknown:
Yeah. That's right. So I would say it's very relevant. I mean, you know, Bitcoin is super relevant. Most people are most almost everyone in the world at this point is asking themselves, do I have to care about this?
[00:16:55] Unknown:
Right.
[00:16:57] Unknown:
You know? And I think, like, most people have been through that with fish at some point in time. Do I have to care about this? The about this and the fucking thing? Right. And the fact that it's art makes it easy to dismiss. Right? Because you don't need art in your life. Right? It's better if you do. Oh, you don't need I just don't like money. But yeah. I hear you. It's not like money. Or yeah. I mean, I think that's a different argument for another day. Yeah. Potentially. We did this before the last time. People individuals maybe this is interesting. Right? Because maybe individuals don't really need it, but cultures do. And cultures need individuals who appreciate art. Otherwise, they don't Yes. They don't last.
[00:17:37] Unknown:
But, yeah, but back to the back to the I'm sorry.
[00:17:41] Unknown:
No. Go ahead.
[00:17:43] Unknown:
Yeah. Back to the, I don't know, the human condition of of, you know, the Buddha the Buddhist perspective on as it relates to, you know, self importance being the root of suffering, attachment being another big one that they talk about.
[00:17:59] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:18:02] Unknown:
I think that the teachings that the pithy type of teachings that, you know, Buddhism kinda repeats throughout all of its writings over time is really not about, like, the goal of life is to eliminate suffering. That's not that's an impossibility. It's about really, like, understanding what it is to be human and counterbalancing these tendencies that we all have to be grabby, to be to wanna put yourself out there and, you know, zero sum game type of thinking. It's like scarcity mindset versus abundance mindset. And one thing that kinda came to me as it relates to, like, scarcity. The fact that Bitcoiners think about scarcity so much, I worry that it's easy for us to fall down this this this incorrect path of of zero sum game thinking. I'm not saying this is a conscious activity.
It's just something we think because we think about scarcity so much that we can Many will.
[00:19:02] Unknown:
Many we don't know how to think about this. So, like, many will. Right? Just back on suffering, I have my view is that winners, find ways to suffer on their own terms to the extent they can. Right? So, like, you could either suffer in a gym or suffer with in the hospital. Right. Right? And so you can choose you can choose your suffering in certain ways by being, you know, sort of preemptive and purposeful. Right?
[00:19:37] Unknown:
Right. Intention intentional. Yeah.
[00:19:41] Unknown:
You know, it's funny. Right? I had the I had that had the conversation with Joey. That was a great podcast. I don't know if you listened to it yet. I haven't seen it. I haven't I know you've been Bitcoin. It's the Canadian Bitcoin podcast. We did it in our apartment that we were staying in. Check it out. It's, like, really it was a good time. It was really it was like, it was like rock paper Bitcoin was on a podcast and got to talk about itself. Oh, I saw I saw that comment. Yeah. That's great. And, one of the one of the things Joey said that I reacted to, he'll never listen to this. He actually said he called doing a fish podcast like the dumbest thing in the world. See? So See? We're safe here.
But one of the things he said was, this is like maxi kinda maxi retard stuff, but, like, he was saying how they had coffee and that there was, you know, they were offering coffee for Bitcoin, and it was like a thousand sats. He said he couldn't bring himself to he couldn't bring himself to do it. And my response to him was, like, if you were part of circular economy and you cared where that Bitcoin was going, you would not have that issue. You would you would wanna do that. Now if you're yeah. You're not gonna go to McDonald's paying Bitcoin and care that you got them Bitcoin. You're not gonna care about that.
But you're gonna care if your community is, you know, building. Right? You want you want these vendors to have Bitcoin. Yeah. Right? I paid for a cup of coffee in Bitcoin, and I I don't regret paying for it in Bitcoin. I just regret the cup of coffee because it was it sucked. It was gross. Yeah. So when I pay when I buy coffee from Otis Bittmeyer, I'm happy to pay Bitcoin for it. And, you know, interestingly enough, I remember when I met him almost it's like almost two years now. Yeah. He told me two years ago he wanted to target $1 an ounce. Right?
Mhmm. And, dude, you can't you cannot find a 16 ounce bag of coffee for $16. That's true. You're gonna pay $30 at this point. Right? Yep. But he's still like, I had the coffee at the meetup yesterday that he sent. It's still pretty much a dollar an ounce. And I don't even know if he's targeting that. Right? Still, it's just that's what it's what this allows. Right? It really does. Yeah. If you're the best of the best, people will buy it from you with their Bitcoin. I want Otis to have Bitcoin. Well, that's what he demands, and he can't because his coffee is really good. So we got off all track here, but, like, I you know, I, you know, I wonder if, like, Bitcoiners think more about scarcity than fish fans do. I don't know.
[00:22:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:22:46] Unknown:
Right? I mean, fish fans, we have had it taken away from us on multiple occasions.
[00:22:51] Unknown:
100%.
[00:22:54] Unknown:
You know, I remember going on high hash rate for the first time, and, Dan asked me, like, what is it it was like it was cheap almost plebs sloppy cheesy. Right? But, like, he said, what is your vision of hyperbitcoinization? And my answer was, I I think the best we do is that we end up like fish where nobody really cares, but we get to go to our shows. We get our thing. You know, we have what we want. We have what we need. Nobody cares that much about it, and that's the best scenario.
[00:23:38] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I was riding that wave for from 2009 to 2013. I was so happy to I had a job. I wasn't making a ton of money. I was getting by, and I was going to fucking a ton of fish shows. And it was just great because I I I I had lost it, you know, for five years.
[00:24:00] Unknown:
You know, this is gonna sound probably stupid to a lot of people, but I remember the moment I realized that I and my coworkers were making too much money. And I didn't know how much money they were making. I could just tell by their behavior that they were making too much money. Right. You know? You can just tell, okay. Something really shifted. And it was it was around o eight, o '9 when I started having that observation. Mhmm. You know? Where people cared more about keeping their jobs than actually, making a, like, making a lot of money for the company, which would be good for us personally. Yep. It's like, why do all that? I already have the job, and I'm already at the pay.
Why bother?
[00:24:46] Unknown:
Yep.
[00:24:48] Unknown:
Right? So that I mean, abundant to again, it's like, what's the plebslop quote? Like, when money is abundant, everything else is scarce? Yes. And when money is scarce, everything else is abundant? I mean Right. I do think these are these proverbs are worth delving into.
[00:25:13] Unknown:
Sure.
[00:25:14] Unknown:
I don't think it's you know, I think thinking about scarcity is, useful. You don't wanna get obsessed about it. Right. I don't think anybody even knows how this is gonna play out. Right? Correct. Bitcoin being scarce. You know, I wrote in my book I had to I took this out of my book, but I had a sentence in there that got edited out. The sentence was, I have a, I had a bloody nose this morning, and I have a tissue from it that has a bunch of blood on it. And it's the most scarce tissue in the world. Nobody else has it. It's not scarce. It's rare, I guess. It's like, you know, okay. Whatever. But, like fair pepper. There's more to life than scarce. Right? If it doesn't have value, what's matters what matters is whether it confers value or not. Right. Right? I mean, I don't know if you remember, Fish at the met not the met. Fish at the met twelve was it 12/03/1990 12/03 of sorry. 02/2019?
[00:26:19] Unknown:
That was the Sirius Sirius XM thing?
[00:26:23] Unknown:
Yes. Mhmm. Okay. Now that I remember the second they announced it, I almost got upset about it. I was like, dude, this is just gonna be the dumbest game in the world trying to get ticket for that. Yep. Right?
[00:26:35] Unknown:
Yep. What a great story.
[00:26:38] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, everybody who went got in somehow. If you were there, you got in. Right? And just for the listeners, the met the, you know, fish plays fish typical fish venue holds, like, 15,000 people. Yeah. Or more. And they're all sold out. Always sold out. Right? In Philly, the man, you know, a show with the man or the I mean, Fish will play the Philly Spectrum or whatever they do. Fargo. Yeah. Most I mean, that was they haven't done that since 02/2009. They just don't come around here in the wintertime. Right?
But they play Madison Square Garden up the street. What does that what does Madison Square Garden see? Like, 2021,
[00:27:22] Unknown:
'22?
[00:27:23] Unknown:
They'll play four straight nights. Each night is harder to get than the next. Yep. Right? So the now we're talking about a 3,000 seat theater.
[00:27:34] Unknown:
Like, maybe 3,000. Right? Yeah. 3,000 is a good number.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
It felt I like, it felt stupid. I was like, what the fuck are they doing? It felt fucking dumb. Everybody negotiated with themselves out of trying to get a ticket
[00:27:50] Unknown:
or, like, even going to the venue in search of one.
[00:27:55] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, thank god it was in, like, the most dangerous neighborhood in the country. Right. Maybe that's how they justified it. I ain't no no one's really gonna go no one's really gonna go down there.
[00:28:09] Unknown:
Now, did you get in? Did you go?
[00:28:12] Unknown:
I did. Wow. I went. I got in. I have a nice little trifecta of, ticket stubs from the Met that was, Trey from Ghost of the Forest. Yep. Sorry. Ghost of the Forest, fish, which was just so Ghost of the Forest was April of that year. Mhmm. Fish was, December of that year. And then 2021, it was Trey. Tab. So those are all three events that have sorry?
[00:28:45] Unknown:
Classic Tab. Right? That tour? Yeah. That was,
[00:28:49] Unknown:
full that was full tab. Oh, full tab. Okay. Yeah. So one of these days, I plan a frame. Like, I have, like, the little poster from the MET. I think everybody got one. It's like a little it's like a little weenie poster. You know? It's a mini one.
[00:29:03] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:29:04] Unknown:
But I think it's a cool you know, people framed it and put their ticket stub in it.
[00:29:09] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:29:11] Unknown:
I have a poster from the trade show, and then I got three ticket stubs that eventually I plan to throw. I mean, so it's you know, the my point my point is that is a scarce space. Yep. And it felt like it was gonna suck. And but you know what? Everyone who went down there got in anyway. I don't know. I
[00:29:33] Unknown:
I think anybody who really overthinks this shit is gonna end up screwing themselves up anyway. It's a great example of overthinking it and negotiating with yourself or saying, oh, it couldn't be me. Because I had a friend that went he he won I wanna say he he won lottery tickets. And I don't know if it was through the Fish, the band, or I know Cyrus was doing a promotion for the for those. And, I remember he came back and told the story. He's like, yeah. All the security on this on the sidewalk right before the show, if anybody was out there, they let him in. I was like, you gotta be kidding me.
[00:30:06] Unknown:
Crazy. Right? I mean, at least they I mean, I think everybody who got in, they they didn't get to see the whole show, but they by the second set, everybody who wanted to was in.
[00:30:18] Unknown:
Yes. That's a good point. I don't think it was the whole show. That's a good point. Yeah.
[00:30:25] Unknown:
So, like, back to then, like, we were talking about the bugle.
[00:30:30] Unknown:
Yeah. K.
[00:30:32] Unknown:
We so this past this past week, they, they said something. Now, look. You know, Richard Grieser is spending a lot of time on music right now. We have a lot of time and energy on music.
[00:30:50] Unknown:
Good.
[00:30:51] Unknown:
And it is good. It is good. So he's like, you can you can see the progression Mhmm. As he works through it. But it was I I guess it was Rod who said, there's no oh, no. It was Richard. There's no subversive music anymore. This is what he was saying. And I and I started yelling I started yelling at my phone just to, just to just to share. Well, he's been into he's been really into, like, Bob Dylan. Some he's been working on some covers of some pretty ball like, old old school baller, like, the real angry shit. Right? The like, the angry Dylan shit. Okay. It's like in one fucking a minor chord that's, you know, the whole song. You know? Right. Right.
So, like, that's where he's like, and I used to say that. And when I came into Bitcoin, okay, forget forget Bitcoin. When I when I when I started getting, like, Trump deranged, when I was in, like, the last decade Mhmm. I remember saying to myself, you know what? Like, where's the music right now? Right? Where's the music for this time? Doesn't exist. I remember just making that observation. Where is, like, the anthem of, you know, where where is the anthem of the disaffected? And that doesn't exist. Right? Right. And I'm like, man, it's gonna be amazing when it comes. Like, holy shit. Right? I just kept thinking to myself, man, this music whenever the music of this time comes, man, it's gonna be fucking awesome.
And it's not hasn't come. And I think that's what he's sort of saying. And when I came into Bitcoin too, it's like, where's the music here? Where's the music of Bitcoin? Because this is the real this is real protest. Yeah. It is. Right? But no one makes music. In fact, I I would I would say the closest thing I've seen was is really what the bugle was doing with AI.
[00:32:41] Unknown:
Right.
[00:32:43] Unknown:
And mostly because we all were in on we're we were just, we know. Like, we knew. We knew what it was. Right. You know? It wasn't a joke. It's just that we knew what it was. Okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
No. It's a good point because, you know, we we pointed out before in earlier rips of, like, you know, the scene that was fish early on. And, like, Bitcoin is a is a scene. Like like, it might be the scene right now.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Right. But there's no music for it. Correct. There's no music. It's missing music. And the the point that point Richard was making was that there's no subversive music where Mhmm. And so I read a book in you know what? Chris, this is a story. I listened I listened to this book on my way to Fenway Park in 2019. Okay. K. July it was like July fourth weekend or I don't remember. Right? Yeah. K. July 4 weekend, I'm driving up to Boston, listened to this book. It's called White by Brett Easton Ellis, who is well known. He's most well known for American Psycho.
[00:33:58] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:33:59] Unknown:
He wrote American Psycho, less than zero. You know, I had a couple bangers in there. Zero. Wow. I didn't know that was the same guy. Yep. Same guy. Right? And, you know, so once he had a Hollywood movie made out of his book, he was American Psycho was, like, the next one.
[00:34:13] Unknown:
Right.
[00:34:15] Unknown:
But the what I remember to this day him saying was that subversion in general is missing from our culture entirely. Like, when we were growing up, dude, like, fucking playing cards with naked ladies on it made us feel fucking subversive. Like, stupid shit like that. Yeah. It was not hard to feel this way. Right? It just wasn't that hard. And now, dude, you gotta be like a fucking pea you have to go so fucking far to feel you're subversive. Right? And, you know, so that is a little like, it's a little like, I remember being jarred by hearing that. Right? Like, it rang true.
And Yeah. You know, it rang true. But I won't you know, it's almost like, okay. So what do we do now? Right? So I guess conspiracy theories are subversive.
[00:35:14] Unknown:
They are.
[00:35:16] Unknown:
Right? It sounds like telling the truth is subversive in a certain way. Right? It is. It actually is. That's the the biggest the, like, the most subversive thing you can do is to call out false flags. Mhmm. Right? Nine eleven or Gen six. You know, anything with a date on it, you can Okay. Just say it's a false flag and that you'll feel the wrath.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
And Yes. And you'll you'll get that you'll get that subversive feeling. You'll get that rush. Yeah. They're like, oh, I'm going against the grain. Yeah.
[00:35:48] Unknown:
People are gonna be mad at me Yeah. For telling the truth. Right? So that okay. There's a good example of where it still exists. Right? Now in 2019, I was unaware of any of this shit. I was like the guy getting angry at people with Seth Rich theories and things like that.
[00:36:07] Unknown:
Right.
[00:36:08] Unknown:
You know, I was that guy, unfortunately. But, so it's not like it's totally absent, but the idea is, though, you know, there was a time where music was super subversive. Right? The time of Bob Dylan, I would say Jimi Hendrix.
[00:36:27] Unknown:
You know, maybe, like, the early days of fucking gangster rap and shit like that. Yeah. I mean, I would say, like, some of the like, I would I would think punk rock, the punk scene was pretty subversive, but it wasn't very pop it wasn't very popular. You know, and and I never got into that genre. I consider The subversion post punk rock. The subversion didn't get really that noticed.
[00:36:50] Unknown:
Like, South Park was super, super Yes. Right? You get calmly. Good point. Right? Like, in the even the Simpsons, dude. Like, this like, when, you know, when teachers are, like, protesting it okay. Right?
[00:37:03] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:37:04] Unknown:
You you know? In South Park what did South Park do? They kinda told the truth. Right? So They told the truth. That's right. A super, super, super duper subversive. Right? It was. You know, so but I you know, when Richard was saying there's no music, it's kinda true.
[00:37:23] Unknown:
Kinda true.
[00:37:26] Unknown:
But, obviously, I began to think about fish. Yes. Me too. And they knew I was gonna bring it up at some point. Yeah. Right? It was like no surprise when I brought it up. Right? They're like, oh, let me guess. You're ready to now hit throw fish in the mix. But, like, I think it's worth I think it's worth thinking about it. Yeah. Especially in the context of what we've talked about for 21 episodes leading up to now. Because if it's true like, it's not they weren't like, they were a little subversive. Right? They were like, our goofy, nerdy selves are gonna just do music, and it's and it's gonna work. We're gonna do narration.
We're gonna do whatever the fuck we want. We're gonna connect with fans. We're gonna do secret language. We're gonna all fall on the fucking floor and fuck with people. They really enjoyed fucking with people. We're gonna do that and it you know, this is us, and that's gonna it's gonna work. And, you know, I guess it evolved. People people have theories about how, like, when when live fish like, when a show is on live fish that fish would play some standard set. I don't know if I don't know how true these I don't know how true these things are. I I remember that. Yes. Yeah. Right? But people theorize people always theorize you know, people were theorizing always about there would be a big hit. There never was.
[00:38:52] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:38:53] Unknown:
And, you know, people just you know, there was a time where Phish really wanted it, but they didn't want it bad enough to Yeah. You know, really do what they had to do with like, they didn't want it bad enough to do what Huey Lewis did, and Huey Lewis didn't sell out or anything. But Huey Lewis told his band, this is our last shot, and every song needs to be radio friendly.
[00:39:16] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:17] Unknown:
And every song was a fucking hit on that album. Every song was a fucking hit. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, Phish never did that. Right? It never ever ever did that. In fact, you know, the one where everyone thought was gonna bust out, right, was Hoist, and everybody thought Sample was going to be that song. Yep. Sample in a Jar. Yep. Maybe maybe a good opener. You know? Maybe a good opener and closer. I could roll with that. You You know, certainly could certainly could be a closer spot. It's like one of my favorite guitar solos, by the way, of all the entire fish catalog was is actually the hoist album version of sample in a jar. Yep. I think people really noticed that it could be that that could have been the one. But you had records mailbox on that fucking album.
Right? Twenty seven seconds of Jonathan Frakes blowing into a fucking trumpet that he was incapable of reading the music that reading the horn charts that Fish created for him.
[00:40:16] Unknown:
I I didn't know that. I don't know that story. You know who Jonathan Frakes is. Right?
[00:40:21] Unknown:
Yeah. Dude, we covered this more on rock paper Bitcoin than we have here. It's unbelievable. Jonathan Frakes was, William t Riker on Star Trek the next generation.
[00:40:32] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:40:33] Unknown:
K. So that's you know the show, and Fish were huge fans of next gen. Okay. Huge fans. And they recorded hoist. So there was a documentary. You gotta have seen this. Trying to remember what it was called, but it was a documentary about the recording of Hoist. Okay. And it was, we have to attach it to the show notes because there's a YouTube for it. Yeah. I'll write it down. Dude, there was a fire. It was in LA. There was a fucking fire. They had to evacuate the fucking studio. It was wild. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. But it turned out that Jonathan Frakes, who played William t Riker, lived, like, next door to the studio they recorded.
And Fish put the word out that they would like they would they were like, come over, bring your trombone, you know, and they wrote a whole thing for him, porn charts, everything. Right? Mhmm. And for well, Frakes tells the story that he came over and he saw this music they had for him. He's like, I can't fucking play that. He didn't have the chops. He didn't have the chops. Have the chops. Yeah. Didn't have the chops, and they're like, it's cool, dude. Just you know what? Let's just roll, like, forty seconds and just play whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah. And it became Rikers mailbox. Got it. It's total cacophony of Yes. Him and his trombone. It's good. It's it's a great story. You know, like, next generation, it's like he you would think he you know, he is mister fucking trombone. Right? Right. Like, Picard plays his little recorder, and he's like a you know, you would guess he's quite good at it because he dedicates so much time to it. Right? Riker is in fucking 10 forward playing trombone all the time for crowds of people, and I think it's almost like fish bought into it. They're like, dude, of course, you can come over. Mhmm. Of course, you could play this. They were so proud to give them this piece of music. Like, yeah, of course, you could fucking play. And you play for everybody on your fake show. Oh, you're right. And then, you know, Jonathan and Jonathan Frakes just, like, made it up. It's all fake. You know what I mean? Guy.
You know the meme where he's on he's on some other show where they reveal, they just reveal the thing, you know, that they made something up. And so a big meme it's a big meme of, like, John and Frakes always saying it's fake. We made it up. Totally fake. That's funny. That's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgot where I was going with this. Oh, the the, like, fans thought that was gonna be some big moment, some launch moment with that album and, like but they never made they never had an album where like, RIFT might be the closest one. Right? Yeah. Where, like, all the songs are just, like all the songs could have been they're pretty friendly.
Right? There's nothing there's nothing offensive. Maybe RIFT itself is, like, the most offensive
[00:43:31] Unknown:
to the senses. You know? Like, you have to gotta be on that ride. Right? And same in that cluster of albums is, you know, Long Boy was one you could just hit play. And, like, I remember having it on in my I came home for one summer from college. I was probably, like, 20. And I just put it on in my room. I just Okiepaw ceremony?
[00:43:47] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I know. But, like, you can't like, you know, nobody think like, you put Okeypaw Ceremony on an album, and you're just saying you're telling the record company, we're not serious about having a hit. True.
[00:44:01] Unknown:
You know what I mean? Those albums, like, even my mom would be like, what what were you just playing? I was I was really good. Like, you know, we're like, it was, like, mom friendly, long boy.
[00:44:10] Unknown:
But you're not Huey Lewis with his back against the wall. I
[00:44:14] Unknown:
know your name.
[00:44:16] Unknown:
And, like, Hoist would have been that album. Right? Hoist was, I think, the fourth Hoist was that album. Moment. Right? It would have been that album, and they fucking have Breck Breckner's mailbox on it. It's like insanity. Right? It's insanity. So what I'm saying is Phish never did that. Right? Phish never made that choice. Right? They never they never did, like, did what they had to do, but they cared. They wanted it, but they wanted to do it their way. That's right. They cared just not enough. So my I guess this all goes to this all goes to say that fish could never shake that streak of subversion where they had you know, like, they did a song, like, on hoist. They did, and they covered it so well in the documentary.
But, you know, the song demand?
[00:45:04] Unknown:
Of course.
[00:45:06] Unknown:
Love it. But Mhmm. The song on the album is, like, nine minutes long, but the reality is the song is one minute long. And it's about a guy who gets into his car, and he gets in his car and pops a cassette in, and it's a live version of split open to melt for eight minutes. Yeah. And then he ends up in a car accident. And Yep. Back then, they got into a real car accident to get the sound.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
No.
[00:45:29] Unknown:
Yes. Are you serious? They weren't in it themselves, but they had a car. Crashed a car? They crashed a car to record the sound. BMW?
[00:45:37] Unknown:
Is it the BMW on on the cover of the Sickat disc by chance? Is it that Maybe. It's very possible. Right? I have that t shirt, and it's Because voice
[00:45:45] Unknown:
you into a tree. I'm sure everybody knows this fun fact. Right? But the only, song on Rift the only song that's not in the cover is the horse. Right. And Hoist is the next album, and it's a horse lifted up. Oh, that's brilliant. I never drew that connection. That's really good. Because you went So it's very possible that there's this lag in album covers that are just, like, unfinished business from the prior from the prior album. Right? Right. But, like, the the you know, it's who who the fuck like, who would do this? Right? Who would have a song that's really a song that was on another album, but a live version through a car that crashes when it's, like, your fourth album and it's the one the record company is really fucking leaning on you? Yeah. Like, this is it, dude. Like, this is, like, we're and Fish did not give a fuck. They really didn't care. No. Well, that's, well, that's the thing. Like, this idea of, like, of, like, I think they sorry. But I think they I really think they thought it was gonna work anyway.
[00:46:50] Unknown:
Okay. Because, you know, if if you put that if you told that story in front of a a psychologist or psychiatrist, they would they would they would label that as self sabotage.
[00:47:00] Unknown:
They would. And it's absolutely not what it was. I think they just had so much belief that, you know what? They think they thought, like, you know what? These songs are so good. One one of them is gonna catch. Just trust us. And, dude, there's YouTube videos of them going on MTV and doing interviews and being part of all those fucking MTV parties Yeah. With all the teenagers around.
[00:47:25] Unknown:
And hated it.
[00:47:27] Unknown:
But they did it. They did all that shit. Yeah. They did it. They checked the boxes.
[00:47:32] Unknown:
I just feel like the more I the more we talk about this, the more I think of and and I I always go to Trey, but it's the whole band, Fishman in particular, who would have been like, you know what? Like, you know, when the record label's being like, oh, come on, guys. Like, this is your this is your big chance. This, you know, voice does you know, this is this this is it. And they're like, you know what? Fuck this. We're putting this fucking shitty track on here just to fuck with these people because fuck Fishman Fishman is the human
[00:48:01] Unknown:
embodiment of subversion. Yeah. John Fishman is the well, I mean, and, you know, it's it's I guess, it's sad what he turned out to be, I guess.
[00:48:12] Unknown:
Why?
[00:48:15] Unknown:
Fucking politician.
[00:48:17] Unknown:
Oh, I mean
[00:48:19] Unknown:
I'm just saying.
[00:48:20] Unknown:
I didn't know that. I I I really try to stay still He's, like, dedicated
[00:48:25] Unknown:
he's dedicated his life guy. He's a birdie. He's dead no. He's dedicated his life outside of fish to politics. I didn't know that. He's an alder he was an alderman. I don't even know what a fucking alderman was. I don't know what that is. There's, a song called Alderman's Yard on a Woody Gordon album. Alright. Yeah. Pretty badass. It is. It's a great Maybe it's Andel Andelman's Yard? Maybe it's Yard. Yeah. Well, Fishman's an alderman in Maine, and his claim to fame in politics now is championing this thing called rank choice voting.
[00:48:58] Unknown:
Fuck. Is this some socialist shit?
[00:49:02] Unknown:
It's basically, you know, it's it's on the surface. No. Like, on the surface, it's like, yeah. Okay. Rank choice voting. Like, okay. It's like you revote once you throw out, you you you basically you don't just vote for somebody. You vote with a rank order. You whittle it down. Right? Well, you rank order them. You say, this is my first choice, and this is my second choice. Gotcha. I don't know. That seems like a reasonable thing to do And so want. You know what I mean? It all does seem reasonable. I just think it's sad that such a great man of subversion has dedicated his life to politics.
[00:49:41] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:49:42] Unknown:
Right? When he could be just fucking shit up. You know?
[00:49:48] Unknown:
I remember in 2016, that was when Bernie had his run. Right? Was that '16?
[00:49:53] Unknown:
Yeah. '15 really was '15 is when it is when Bernie made in. Look. Bernie Bernie Sanders was the mayor of Burlington in 1983 when Fish started. And That's the impression. The fact of the matter is Bernie Sanders as a politician in 1983, had something to do with Burlington, Vermont being a good place for bars to exist Right. And for a lot of for opportunities for Phish to come up. I mean, if that's all part of the immaculate conception of how this band evolved.
[00:50:29] Unknown:
Okay. Okay. There's no That was because I There's no way around that. Yeah. I saw John did a a live appearance once in Philadelphia during that period, and I was like, oh, cool. I'll get, you know, go go see John Fishman. But as But it was surrounding it was surrounding Bernie Sanders, and I was like,
[00:50:47] Unknown:
As Trump deranged as I was in 2015, I hated Bernie Sanders. I fucking hated him. And I actually really I still do. I mean, I still I thought he was really the guy that made class warfare Mhmm. Like a a popular movement. Yeah. You know, like, I kinda had my suspicions that Obama was really really gonna be good at that. He He probably would have been if he focused on it more, but Bernie was the one that made it that fucking made that. I hated him. I fucking I I just thought it was so I I, like, to me, that was like the end of civilization.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
Right.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
And then I've the way I viewed it was that basically, Trump just picked up the baton and ran and just kept running with it. And it's like, you know, dude, I don't know how you, like I don't know. I was like, I don't know how you people, you know, love Trump, but yet like also like, you know, or dislike Bernie Sanders or, you know Mhmm. Some part of that never made sense to me. But, again, I was fucking my my head was in the wrong place at the time. Right. Right. And Well, I know there was a there was a surprising
[00:51:52] Unknown:
dynamic during that election that there were there were people that were torn between Bernie and Trump. Like, I wanna say it was Nolan. It was Nolan, had had mentioned that.
[00:52:03] Unknown:
And I was Nolan is all signal, man. And, well, I don't know how Nolan was in 2015, but, you know, dude's a g. Yeah. I caught you. Oh, he's from Vermont too. He I found I I found out today he's from Vermont. And I actually Yeah. I texted him this morning, by the way, and I asked if he's ever thought about Van Fish in relation to Bitcoin. And so we'll see if he gets I'll see if he gets back to me. I met him I met him in Canada last week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned. That's really cool. I I had He's already regretting giving me his contact info because I'm badgering him about fish now.
[00:52:35] Unknown:
He's like, oh, one of these people? Oh, man. So go I'm trying to get away from these people. What the fuck?
[00:52:40] Unknown:
I moved up into the mountains to get away from these assholes. I moved to Canada, dude, to yeah. I moved all the way up fucking into the mountains of Quebec to get the fuck away from these people. Like, the one place I knew they couldn't hurt, like, they they couldn't find me. Right. Yeah. That's so funny. But, I gotta shoot my shot, man. I got I gotta shoot the shot.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
Yeah. But I, I caught that, that that link that, that Shadrach had posted in the in the Telegram group, and then I I just did a a search in, like, Spotify to find another podcast. You know, something he didn't like June. We had a show, but I learned he he explained his whole 2015 thing of being, like, Bernie or Trump. And I was like, woah. I never had heard that that being a a common, like,
[00:53:28] Unknown:
decision. Well, they can they were they were pop they were the populists. Right. People don't associate Bernie with populism, but that's all he was.
[00:53:37] Unknown:
That's what communism is. It's a form of populism.
[00:53:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I think Trump is populist without being necessarily communist. It's just it's just on the other side of the political spectrum. You know? I wasn't a fan of populism in general. I'm not. I'm generally not a fan of it. Right. I'm not not a fan of, like, low signal rile everybody up. You know? Yeah. Easy answers. And that's what like, I think Bernie brought in I didn't wanna make this political, but, like No. You know what? I mean, look. The fact is Fish has outlasted Bernie Sanders in their relevance.
You know, Bernie Sanders might have been a fine mayor in 1983, but he became a sort of a populist loser in 02/2015. Fucking a fucking easy answering machine. Fuck that shit, dude. I mean, you know, at least be funny. He's not funny. Like, at least be fucking funny if you're gonna be that guy. Exactly.
[00:54:42] Unknown:
You're gonna be a man of the people. Make me laugh. There's nothing funny about that, man. Yeah. And the reason why, you know, Phish outlasted them is because, they never they never I said this maybe at episode one or two of of this podcast of, like, they never pretended to to think the fans cared what they thought politically, socially, or anything. They never used Well They're they never used it as a platform.
[00:55:05] Unknown:
The reality is Trey just never cared. And it's the reason Phish has lasted this long that without fights in the band is because Trey is 95% of the band when it comes to the presence, the decisions.
[00:55:22] Unknown:
I mean, I disagree with that entirely. But What's that? I disagree with that take entirely. Okay.
[00:55:29] Unknown:
Go ahead.
[00:55:30] Unknown:
No. I just think that, you know, he was the the voice box of the band. The guitar players are naturally the front men of any band, of any rock band. But I got no indication that he drove the decision making, and nor do I think that any member of the band is is any more or less irreplaceable than the other. Well, let me specify anyone. Go ahead. There's it's unlikely that they all agreed all the time.
[00:56:04] Unknown:
It's it's fairly likely that they all agreed never to, you know, never sell out. They all probably agreed on that. Right. The reason why it worked is because Trey agreed is my point. If Trey was not on there refutable. We have no evidence. I know. I know. I know that. I know that. But that's my that would be my statement. Understood. I would say a part player. So let's just let's just keep it real. If I'm saying that if Trey had some ambition that was counter to what the band wanted, right, it would have been a problem. Yeah. And I don't know that it would have been such a problem with any of the other members of the band. I understand where you're coming from. You understand what I'm saying. Right? I do. I do. And that's why, like, oh, you know what? Here's a nice little nugget of lost material.
Should we do this? Nice nugget of lost material. Okay. It's a common misconception. It's a common misconception that 50 of fish is Jewish.
[00:57:08] Unknown:
That that that's my conception. I'm a I'm a commoner.
[00:57:11] Unknown:
Some common misconceptions because two of the members of the band are Jewish.
[00:57:15] Unknown:
Correct.
[00:57:16] Unknown:
It turns out only two and a half percent of the band is Jewish because Trey is 95% of the band.
[00:57:24] Unknown:
Oh my god. This upsets me so much.
[00:57:31] Unknown:
We're we're we're really tempting the gods to fuck this episode up again.
[00:57:35] Unknown:
What I I don't quite the contrary. I think we are now destined for for greatness. Now that we're Destined for greatness.
[00:57:44] Unknown:
This was so this was one listeners, dear listeners, you know, we lost a couple episodes. So now I'm remembering some of the things that we had said that we I thought was great content. It was good. This was a great run we were on when, Jason and I were both baked doing the Lake Satoshi episode, and somehow it just came up. Yeah. And we were we thought we thought it was fucking genius. It works. Yes. And it's not the math isn't even right because it really would be, you'd have to divide that 5%, two thirds of that 5%, and it like, that doesn't divide very well. The math isn't even right. He also has a math podcast everywhere. I do have a math podcast. Beyond the math. Cover this.
[00:58:27] Unknown:
Motivate the math. Oh, motivate the math. I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's beyond it's beyond me. That's what I'm I'm projecting.
[00:58:34] Unknown:
You're confusing it with Tom Marshall's, beyond not Tom Marshall's. It's the Osiris Beyond the Pond podcast, which is, like, a podcast dedicated to non fish music.
[00:58:46] Unknown:
Oh, Beyond the Pond and there's Beneath the Scales. God, I'm under the scales. There's under the scales.
[00:58:52] Unknown:
That's Tom's podcast. I'm a mess. And then yeah. Then, like, they have a beyond the pond. Dare anyone dare anyone decide to listen to any other music.
[00:59:05] Unknown:
Right? How dare you?
[00:59:09] Unknown:
I'm being dared to list I'm being dared to go to a King Giz concert by our buddy Grafton.
[00:59:15] Unknown:
I would I would love to fall on that sword for you, my friend. I would love to do that.
[00:59:20] Unknown:
It's fucked up, dude.
[00:59:22] Unknown:
Grafton tried to kill me, man. He's trying to ruin my life. He might be. But you know what? My best friends have tried to kill me. So and we're still friends.
[00:59:31] Unknown:
Story is I'm going to Prague Yes. For, like, the biggest opportunity of my fucking life right now They're great. Which is to I got a speaking role at this, Bitcoin corporate day.
[00:59:45] Unknown:
You know? Talk about selling out. It's excellent. Oh, no. Stop it. That's not selling out. It's all good. Actually, we haven't talked about selling out today at all.
[00:59:54] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I have no I have no, I have no issue with a I don't care what people perceive me as. You know? I did write this book.
[01:00:05] Unknown:
You did.
[01:00:07] Unknown:
And it and I've been grinding, dude. Grinding to get an opportunity for the fucking talk. Couple years now. Yeah. Understood. Whoever you know, anyone else is welcome to invite me to talk at their conference. These guys did. Exactly. These guys did, and it's a huge opportunity. And, dude, it's like, I plan this I plan the trip so that I get there. I'd have a day to sleep, the fucking flight off. Go kill it the next day. Right? Mhmm. Grafton comes in, and he's like, dude, fucking King Giz is it ends like the day I land. It's the day it's the night before. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like it would fucking kill me. It's yeah. It's it you're like, I can't fucking do it, man. I can't do it, dude. This is like Come rage with me, bro.
Not only that. I'm I'm not built that way. Like, I am just not built to push it like that. You know? I'm Yeah. I mean 51 years old. Yeah. Exactly. I'm not a big bro. I'm not a drug guy. I'm not, like, I'm not a big, like, oh, well, I can just drug over it, you know, and just still fucking kill it. That's not gonna happen, dude. This is not a, dude, this is not a 1998 story, dude. This is a 2004 story.
[01:01:20] Unknown:
That's right.
[01:01:21] Unknown:
You know, this is the story about how I ruined my fucking my I ruined everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't a Raleigh '98 story. This is this is two jobs. Yeah. How oh, you know, guess what? I go on stage and I bust out fucking terrapin and everyone fucking love like, I just you know, this is not that this is not that's not how that fucking movie's gonna end. That's That's fun shit, dude. That that was, like, whole I mean, I it's funny, dude. It's like, I must care about Grafton a lot because I, like, really felt like, yeah. You're considered pressure. I felt the fucking pressure, man. You feel you feel you feel the gravitational pull. There's mass there. Mhmm. The gravitational pull.
He's like Rodney Dangerfield, the way people talk about Rodney Dangerfield in the fucking, back in the eighties stand ups. Like, the New York stand ups, they were like, dude, whenever Rodney Dangerfield was in town, dude, we would make sure we were we were far the fuck away. Because anyone who was, like, you know, trying to stop doing drugs, you know, was, like, wanted no wanted nothing to do with New York if Rodney was in town. And he'd be mostly because he had this quality, you couldn't say no to him. That was right. It wasn't like he was, like, a terror. Right. It's just that he was the guy you couldn't say no to.
[01:02:39] Unknown:
You know? Very, very persuasive guy, I'm sure, especially on a head full. Just couldn't say fucking no to the to the guy. Yeah. I know. I mean, I would love to party with Rodney. He'd be he'd be legit for sure.
[01:02:51] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. Ask him about fucking, what's the soccer movie he did? Ladybugs. Ladybugs. And his great line from that movie? I don't know. I got a lot of balls.
[01:03:06] Unknown:
My wife loves that movie.
[01:03:08] Unknown:
That's funny. So, yeah, that's a bit of what's going on for us. I look. I I wanna I I wanna reemphasize this subversiveness of fish. We we what we didn't really cover was, like so I'll just mention it.
[01:03:27] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:03:32] Unknown:
If I'm right, Everyone's like, who the fuck cares? If I'm right that the gods, the spirits really were communicating through this band, and they were communicating all kinds of things. But among you know, using them as ciphertext. Right? Talking like a band that sounds like nonsense to actually like the Utopia comic book. Right? Oh, we didn't nobody knows what the fuck I'm talking about because that episode did not release. Nobody knows the reference of unless you hear heard me mention it on rock paper Bitcoin. Yeah. But unless they're using fish as, like, the fucking decoder ring, dressed up like a nonsensical, you know, group of idiots singing about Golgi apparatus.
[01:04:22] Unknown:
Right.
[01:04:25] Unknown:
I mean, there's nothing more subversive than that.
[01:09:24] Unknown:
When I asked the manager, could I go home? Because we had a off day. So he said, yeah. So I took some LSD at the airport because I knew where it would hit me. I'd be in my own in my little area and I'd know where to go. So that's how I got to my friend's girlfriend's house. She said, what's wrong with you? I said, my house is at Georgia Park. The next day, which I thought was the next day, she told me, you better get up. You gotta go pitch. I said, pitch? I pitch tomorrow. Hell, what are you talking about? Because I had got up in the middle of the morning and took some more acid. She grabbed the paper, brought me the sports page, and showed me. Boom.
I said, oh, wow. What happened to yesterday? She said, I don't know, but you better get you better get to that airport. Now this was in the seventies, and greens was Dexamil. That was, the drug of choice back then was a stimulant. Over 90% of major league was using Dexamil when I was playing. And when I got to the game, there was a lady down there in San Diego used to always have the Benny's for me, Bentadrine, which is another stimulant. I went out to the in the dugout and reached up because she was standing over the rail. She always stood over the rail and had a pretty little gold pouch. So I got the Benny's, went on back in the clubhouse, took them, the game started and the miss started, misty rain.
So all during the game was a little missed. The opposing team and my teammates, they knew I was high, but they didn't know what I was high on. Because they they had no idea what LSD was other than what they see on TV with the hippies. I didn't see the hitters. All I could tell was if there was on the right side or the left side. The catcher put tape on his fingers so I could see the signals. We had a rookie on the team at that particular time named Dave Cash, and he kept saying after the first inning, he said, you got a no no going. No hit it. I said, yeah. Right. And I looked.
Then around the fourth inning, he'd say it again. Got a no no going. I looked. Yep. But I could also feel the pressure from other players wanting to tell him to shut up. It's a superstition thing where you're not supposed to say nothing if somebody's throwing a no hitter. There were times when the ball was hit back at me. I jumped because I thought it was coming fast, but the ball was coming slow. Third baseman come by and grab the ball and threw somebody out. I never caught a ball from the catcher with two hands because I thought that was a big old ball.
And then sometimes it looks small. One time I covered first base, and I caught the ball, and I tagged the base all in one motion. I said, oh, I just made a touchdown. I didn't pay no attention to the to the to the score. You know? I'm trying to get the bat batters out. You know? I'm throwing a crazy game. I'm hitting people, walking people, throwing balls in the dirt. They're going everywhere. Now we've called for the. We've moved to the bottom of the ninth on a no hitter leading two nothing. It was easier to pitch with the LSD because I was so used to medicating myself. That's the way I was dealing with the fear of failure. The fear of losing, the fear of winning.
It's just that it was part of the game, you know? You get to the major leagues and you say, I I got to stay here. What do I need?
[01:13:06] Unknown:
Everybody in our bullpen is standing and walking around nervously. They wanna run and grab Doc. Now two balls, two strikes, and here's the pitch. Strike three. He got it. No hitters. They're going after him. He got it. Got it. They're Marvin Doc Emmis on a no hitter.
[01:13:43] Unknown:
You got
[01:13:44] Unknown:
it.
Grip it and rip it: John Daly, memes, and Bitcoin vibes
Doc Ellis on acid: the legendary no-hitter tale
Performance under the influence and the mental game in sports
Who is Mars? On smart, low‑profile players in the scene
Calling your shot vs. quiet competence: lions and Dunning–Kruger
Algorithms, underfollowed talent, and why to self‑promote
Buddhism, suffering, and choosing your struggle
Bitcoin circular economies: paying in sats for coffee
Fish and Bitcoin analogies: relevance, art, and need
Scarcity vs. value: tissues, tickets, and The Met show
Is subversive music gone? Dylan, scenes, and AI Bugle bits
Phish as subversion: narration, secret language, and no "hits"
Hoist lore: Sample in a Jar, Riker’s Mailbox, and studio stories
Demand’s car crash, Rift/Hoist cover links, and label defiance
Fishman, politics, and the subversive spirit
Bernie, populism, and how Phish avoided soapboxes
Who drives Phish? Trey’s role, band dynamics, and a joke
Grinding for opportunities, Prague talk, and saying no to a show
Re‑centering on Phish’s subversiveness and coded messages
Doc Ellis recounts the LSD no‑hitter: full monologue
