Back on the Chain

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Fundamentals
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Jason
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Intro:  Sand (HD Webcast), Phish 07/15/2025, The Mann, Philadelphia  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aFBiCu19sI
Outro:  Punch You in the Eye (PYITE), Phish 07/15/2025, The Mann, Philadelphia  https://relisten.net/phish/2025/07/15/punch-you-in-the-eye-38541?source=2440158
Full Show:  Phish 07/15/2025, The Mann, Philadelphia  https://relisten.net/phish/2025/07/15?source=2440158

Trey Anastasio "Guitars" Interview Parts 1&2, Under the Scales Podcast  p1-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6gHW4zzvso, p2-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fXboqDImbs

In this episode, we dive deep into the recent tour experiences and the unexpected surprises that have left us with a sense of regret for missing out on some monumental shows. We discuss the evolution of Phish's performances, particularly focusing on the recent standout show at The Mann in Philadelphia, which featured a rare 40-minute jam in "Sand" and a unique rendition of "My Friend, My Friend." This show, with its intentional callbacks to Philadelphia and playful interactions with the audience, has left a lasting impression and is being hailed as a standout in the band's current era.

We also explore the changes in the band's stage setup and how these might be contributing to their renewed energy and creativity. The conversation touches on the broader implications of missing significant shows and the emotional journey of being a long-time fan. We reflect on the band's ability to continually surprise and innovate, drawing parallels to the world of Bitcoin and the concept of "Max Pain." Join us as we navigate the highs and lows of fandom and the lessons learned from taking things for granted.

[00:01:01] Unknown:

If you can't heal the symptoms,   but not affect the cause,   it's quite a bit like trying to heal a gunshot   Let's also, perhaps,   talk about some observations I had on this tour of there's a new setup, that people have new gear. Yeah. And I think it's all a lot of lot of it's all part of why it's playing so   well. Because  

[00:01:41] Unknown:

oh, look. Let's tell you know, we just showed up. Okay?   I don't know what we I I don't know what we started the show with. I don't know what the music is yet, but, but, like, we were just talking about how,   I don't know the stats, but   how many,   how many forty minute jams were there prior to the back to the existence of the Back on the Chain podcast?   Yes. How many were there   in forty years? Forty one years. How many I could probably count on one hand.   Yeah.   I can count them on probably one hand, maybe two. I mean, I it's sometimes I get confused of, like, some of those 95 bowies where they did they hit forty minutes.  

[00:02:21] Unknown:

Right.  

[00:02:23] Unknown:

But, you know,   Tahoe Tweezer, you got the the the ruby waves of 2019. I think that that did hit forty minutes.  

[00:02:31] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so too.  

[00:02:32] Unknown:

But it's not a lot. And Right.   After the Back on the Chain podcast was created, there have now been two. And this tour hasn't this tour is still young. Right?  

[00:02:44] Unknown:

It is.   And, you know, the one of the first ones of recent memory was,   I wanna say when you and I first talked about doing this podcast,   potentially,   I was coming off the heels of Mexico   2023   or, sorry, 2024,   and they did a chalk dust that eclipsed forty minutes, and it, like, was made headlines, you know, within the community.  

[00:03:08] Unknown:

Interesting.   Now the song we are lamenting.   So for the record, for the listeners,   Jason and I   are both Philadelphians,   and we both did not go to these shows.   And we talked about,   I think, you know, we talked about when the tickets went on sale.   We Yeah. We gave a little bit of an economics   lesson   and talk I I think we both just hit the point in our minds   where,   like, well, we're both not working at the moment   between   careers.   And   I don't wanna speak for you, but for me, like, we just couldn't, like, justify   the like, if it's if it ended up to be a $150   to end up on the lawn, like, that's, like, probably   the edge of what I feel like my system   would tolerate before it started, like, violently   violating me.  

Yeah. You know? Same. It's such a and it's, like, such a matter of principle too in a lot of ways where it's just, like, you know, we all love fish. Y'all know how much we love fish, but, like,   what is the, you know, what is the price at which you just would refuse?   You know? Is it all Correct. Especially given our circum especially given our circumstance, like you said. We don't have cash coming in. There's a psychological component. But even if I did like, it's the thing. I don't real like, I was seeing fish when I didn't have a pot to piss in. This is true. And I was I like, I remember my first show. I didn't know if I could actually afford the hotel that my friends and I stayed at. I don't know how we went. I don't know how we did it.   I had no money.  

Yep. But I know, like, I knew that I would say to myself, I will go to fish shows no matter what. I don't care what my financial situation is. I don't care if I have to sell my blood for it.   Right?   But there is a point where it does get egregious, and I think we we, you know, we worked it into an inflation conversation.   And if it like, you know, if it just is what it is and people are gonna spend $350   to sit on the lawn,   and then if that you know, I can accept that that's   the reality. I we were saying that the band should raise the ticket price   so that   at least they receive the money.  

But, I   I honestly don't know what   you know, this is one of the biggest   scams slash corrupt industries   that's ever existed, and I don't understand it. I don't understand how it's priced. I don't understand who makes money off of these shows.   I do know that at the end of the day, if you're not   connected to the band, you're just going into the secondary market   and paying whatever,   you know, you're paying whatever you can.   Yep. Right? And I don't know how I've what I heard   was   so, like, when we were evaluating the price of the ticket, it was, like, already a $182,100   bucks for a long seat.  

Yep. Philly's a hard ticket. That was a no go. But then I was reading on Monday and Tuesday. I was reading about how   it's even it was even harder than previous years at the man. So I'm imagining   it I'm guessing if you went down if you went down there, you probably were able to pay cash for you probably were able to pay reasonable amount cash, but the ship had already sailed.   And,   the reason we're talking about it now,   I'll just say for myself, I listened to the show today.   And Mhmm.   My thirty one years of fish, I've had I can count on one hand   these moments. They do exist where you feel you know you made a bad decision   not to see them.  

And the fact that I'm still having I'm I'm 50 years old and into this band for thirty years. I'm still the the fact that they can still do that to me is pretty remarkable.   Yeah.   But it's a loss. And I think we're gonna talk about maybe today, we talk about shows we were we you know, shows that are on that list of   we took it for granted.   We took for granted they were in our town. We said, you know what? It's okay. I've seen enough fish shows in my life,   and then you just   you get kicked in the face.  

[00:07:21] Unknown:

Yeah. That's what this is this is what the band does to   the fans on the right and, you know, the Bitcoiners will be familiar with this feeling of it's it's like, and I mentioned this in one of our early rips was, the Max Payne philosophy.   Like, whatever whatever Max Payne   will inflict the most pain on the market is what Bitcoin price action tends to do. And that's like liquidating whether shorts or longs and whatever, doing doing the unexpected.   And there's actually an example of that in this show, in one of the songs,   my friend, my friend,   where Trey,   caught wind of, you know, people basically talking shit online about whatever, and I will get into that. But That happened in this show?  

Yeah. It happened in this show.  

[00:08:05] Unknown:

So you're gonna talk we're gonna talk a we're gonna highlight the song my friend, my friend in this show?   Correct. Good. Good. I wanna make you to make a note right now that I have a Okay. Question.   I have a I have a question,   and I think I hope to I hope it takes you by surprise   that that's the answer, and we'll see if I can pull this off.  

[00:08:28] Unknown:

Okay. Cool. I like it.  

[00:08:31] Unknown:

This show,   you know,   from the minute from the opening song   was a   you was a statement of regret  

[00:08:44] Unknown:

from the opening song. And we just and we just listened to the first five minutes.   And I'll just say the first the the show opener,   on Tuesday   was punch you in the eye,   which is a common show opener,   but this was an uncommon version that, fundamentals and I just listened to, and I hadn't heard it yet. And   we can get into this a little bit if you want now is, sometimes you get a feeling at the beginning of a show as a fan, especially if you've been you've been around the block a few times,   that it's it's setting it's setting the stage for   an interesting night from a musical from a music standpoint.  

You just get that vibe that the band's kinda synced in, and they're they're exploring areas of of of the music that they normally don't explore.  

[00:09:32] Unknown:

I think you go to a show always hoping to feel that at some point. You were hoping to detect it. You're hoping to get some indication in the first set that this might be one of those nights.   But if you go to a lot of shows, you're pretty used to   not, you know, like, knowing that that's not the case, still having a great time and still thinking you're at a great show.   But Yeah. Not quite getting that, like, oh, we're gonna blast off and to do something   historical for the ages.  

[00:10:01] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. It's it's this feeling of excitement too, and it's it's funny because you and I just listening to that, I think I just recognized   that   I used to always say this with my with my friend group that I would go to shows with. Like, before a show, like, let's say, 06:30 ish, like, an hour before we're about to go in,   I would I would usually voice, but, like, I still get excited. Every every night before a show, like, I, like that's how much I love love the band and the music and the whole scene   that there hasn't been a show that I've gone to yet where I've been that's been jaded away, where that's that enthusiasm has been dampened. I still and it's the feeling of, like, anything could happen tonight. It could be one of those shows, but not until they start playing. Do you really, like   are you able to point and say it's happening?  

Totally. And what potential?  

[00:10:48] Unknown:

While we declined to have that experience this year, I still, every time I wake up and it's official that day, I have the same giddy feeling like it's my birthday.  

[00:10:57] Unknown:

Yep. 100%.  

[00:11:01] Unknown:

And, you know, like, as we were listening to that punch you in the eye and what we're really   what we're really talking about is   I've heard a lot of versions of the song. Okay?   I would say my favorite version,   to date would be   the Speckles theater 12/08/1994   version, and maybe just sentimental value. Maybe there's something about the inner that song   typically was characterized by the energy,   the speed,   and the precision of, like, the landlady   sections.  

[00:11:35] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:11:37] Unknown:

Now the version we played in the version they played in Philly   had none of that. In fact, the landlady sections were at landlady speed.   So very ordinary and pedestrian. In fact, like, almost realizing   they can't play that song the way they used to because it's just so,   precise. And Yes. So the question is what made this so special.   Right? Yeah. And and I was because I was, you know, saying to Jason, like,   why you have to listen to this now? Like, I I so they played it a couple of nights ago in Austin, and I haven't heard that version. So maybe they did this in Austin. I don't know yet, so forgive me.   But   they jammed this song out   in the first like, basically, the first measure. This is a show opener.  

And, like, before I realized what was going on, we were four minutes in, and   the song was jamming. And punch you in the eye does not have jamming,   typically. No. Right? It's, like, almost unjammable.  

[00:12:41] Unknown:

Yeah. It's very it's a very,   groove for, you know, four   four four groove that really doesn't change much. It it's very similar sections. Yes.   It's very similar to the   to the big jam of the night that we'll get into. Similar just driving kind of bass, you know, rhythm driven song that doesn't have a whole lot of,   jam ability to it.  

[00:13:06] Unknown:

But yeah. So what punch you in the eye can do is maybe do some exploratory   texture type of stuff in the beginning, kind of like, as you were saying, 2001   where they would just play around with the coloring   of the opener.   And then it's like it's do do do do. You know, it gets very, ethereal.   But in this version Yeah. It was it was absolutely jammed out. And I'm not I'm still not used to Phish   doing unexpected jams in the first   minute of a show, like, in the first five minutes of a show and finding opportunities   to do jams that previously didn't exist   in the first song in the opener of a show. I mean, it's I have to say this is   remarkable   that they continue to do this. This is exactly the kind of thing   that would get somebody like me   to wanna fall on a sword for missing the show.  



[00:14:04] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's like doing the,   the unthinkable. Like, you know, I hearken back to the   the song fee. They did a type two fee. It was like I think it was it during the baker's dozen, it might have been. Mhmm. But it was like a thirty minute We have to do we have to do an episode on that, by the way.  

[00:14:23] Unknown:

Oh my do an episode on fee. That's there was a time where that was gonna be my magnum opus of fish Bitcoin connections.  

[00:14:31] Unknown:

Really? Interesting.   I have a couple,   if not multiple a multi a multitude of new material that   I think   deserve   the level of attention that you gave some of your other your early writings as it relates to tying Bitcoin to fish. Like, there's So we have many episodes   yet to do. Oh, yeah. But, like, I'd Especially now we're getting into the modern modern fish.  

[00:15:01] Unknown:

The fact that they're giving us things to talk about, like, the fact that this regret occurred in the first five minutes of the show, and it should show until   I   I did not even know that there was a forty minute jam in the show when I started regretting missing it. I mean, I literally all I did like, I'm that way. I don't I don't look at the set list. I don't look at the time stamps.   Me neither. Yeah. I go when it's my time when, you know, I go on live fish, and when it's time to hear a show, I listen to it. I try not to know much about it.   And it's almost amazing. I didn't know what happened in this show. I didn't know. And, like, they played I didn't know, by the way, in the encore, and it was another notable   like,   it was a notable version   because,   I don't know if you'd listen to it. Trey started I have yeah. I didn't Trey started saying, I think I did know that I was that far gone. And then he just Yeah. Yeah. You heard I saw I definitely Okay. He was like a,   a a brother   escalation.  

Right?   Like, I I I did know I was that far gone. And then he was like, I definitely knew that I was that far gone. And he   also in the I didn't know, he introduced   Fishman as, Moses DeWitt   and as a permanent resident of Fishtown.  

[00:16:18] Unknown:

Oh, that's great. Which is pretty Oh, that's great. Just where I said That's cool.  

[00:16:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, so that they're, like okay. So, like, they're experimenting in the jamming in an unprecedented way   in songs that don't really have a place for them in the first   in the first song of the set. And in the encore, they're taking a song they've played 400 times,   and yet   simply by being present.   Right? Mhmm. They did they just did something really different.  

[00:16:46] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:16:48] Unknown:

It's remarkable. Also also in the encore, not that I wanna hit the encore now. It's a this is yeah. This isn't even a review of the show. This is a more of a statement of FOMO and regret.   Correct.   Like, in the encore, this is just like you can tell what that you can tell the energy that was in the air, and it hits everything. I can probably find an example of every song where this energy hit it. But during Wilson,   like, Trey just, like, could not stop   wanting to explain   that this song was a local phenomena   that   do we talk about this in podcast before where we No. No. Comes from? There's a there was a store in the King Of Prussia Mall called Wilson Swain Weather. We exchanged, just to just to remind you, we exchanged text, but we never spoke about it. Ah. So this is perfect. Yeah. So Wilson was,   the whole character I mean, Wilson is like a you know,   it's it's a mythological   character at this point.  



[00:17:43] Unknown:

Yes. History.  

[00:17:45] Unknown:

And the song, Wilson King of Prussia, was because there was a store called Wilson's   suede and leather. Used to go there and buy bags   or Yeah. Jackets. Leather sweet leather jackets, man. Yeah. Right? And it was you know, Wilson's was in a lot of malls,   but Trey grew up near the King Of Prussia Mall was definitely the largest mall   in the area where he would grow up, and I'm guessing he went you know, it's just one of those things stuck in his head. And, you know, some some of these fish lyrics, as we know, are just things   you know, they didn't seem, like, that deep. They just seemed like,   there was an episode of Under the Scales. Did you listen to Under the Scales? Were you, like,   into that podcast?  



[00:18:28] Unknown:

I've I got through, like, three episodes that I just kinda picked at random based on titles and it never it never stuck, but I'm aware. Okay. So Tom Marshall  

[00:18:36] Unknown:

hosted Under the Scales. That was his podcast.  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

It's still active, I believe. Is it? Really?  

[00:18:42] Unknown:

No. I don't think so. I don't Okay. I I I don't think so. I'm sorry. I'm speaking out of turn. So it's okay. But he'd so he basically did so after, like, after analyze fish with Harris Whittles and Scott Aukerman, he said he was inspired to do his own podcast, which makes sense. Right?   Like, if he had the itch to do podcast, which we all understand,   he knows he has something interesting to say. He's like, who wouldn't listen to my podcast? I'm gonna I'm the lyricist of Fish, and I'm gonna explain all these lyrics.   And, there's this one episode where he it was,   I think it was called Scott Herman.  

Scott Herman   was,   a not so well known   songwriting partner that was, I think, Tom's good friend.  

[00:19:23] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:19:25] Unknown:

Credit his credits on I don't wanna get this wrong, but I wanna say, like, Gala Papyrus.   There's a whole number of songs he's got credits for that are cool. Okay. But   the reason I'm talking about this   in the context of Wilson king of Prussia   is, this is like an inside joke my daughter and I have. But, like,   he explained that when they were I think when they did their trip to Corfu, like, Trey, Fish, and Dude of Life, and,   they Trey would just invent songs based like, you know, like,   it's the kind of thing you make fun of now, and you see it made fun of in sitcoms and things like that. But Trey was just making songs up based on things he was singing seeing. So, like, he saw a green stump somewhere, and he just wrote a song called green stump.   You know? Mhmm.  

And,   you know, it's not that interesting,   really, except for the fact that it's Trey and it's Fish, and we see examples. We see green stumps all over the Fish catalog.  

[00:20:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And and and and I know he I forget which documentary where he's, he makes up a song because   Paige is putting on a nice shirt because I guess they had planned that night. He's gonna do a lawn boy. So he has got his nice shirt, and he's for his and Trey's, like, writing a song, like, in in the that stage, like, right before the show as as putting on his cufflinks and shit. It's really That was in the, the IT documentary.   Right? Yeah. And that was, like, the chicks in the front row too. We're not singing to the dudes. We're singing to the chicks.  

[00:20:55] Unknown:

So this ordinary   lyric, Wilson, King of Prussia, pretty pedestrian. Mhmm. But yet Yeah. Because something special was in the air and this was the encore, Trejo just has this burning desire to wanna tell everybody again   where this came from.  

[00:21:12] Unknown:

Yeah. That's cool.   That's cool. Yeah. It's interesting. Any   and he and he added the Fishtown thing, which is, you know Yes. Made  

[00:21:21] Unknown:

it made it  

[00:21:22] Unknown:

more it made more sense why he brought it up because he he added that to the kind of Permanent residency.   Fishtown. Yeah. That's cool.  

[00:21:30] Unknown:

Yeah. It's cool stuff like that. So, yeah, so, like, we're regretting I'm regretting this show immediately.   Right on song one, I texted you this morning. I was like, dude, did you hear this fucking thing yet? This is this is horrible.   Mhmm.   You know, moving through. This isn't like the episode about this show once again. Right? This is gonna be the episode about sadness and taking losses.  

[00:21:53] Unknown:

The FOMO.  

[00:21:55] Unknown:

But just to go through this show, you have to punch you in the eye. It goes into everything's right, which is great. It's not not not particularly special.  

[00:22:03] Unknown:

Yeah. One thing I noted on that I'm sorry. Was,   the the landlady was you you mentioned, it was noticeably low tempo.  

[00:22:11] Unknown:

Yes. It was landlady's And  

[00:22:13] Unknown:

and the and the everything's right,   was notably   slower tempo than normal.   So it was like that relaxed feel that relaxed feel kinda transitioned into everything's right.  

[00:22:27] Unknown:

Interesting.   I didn't notice anything too special about the everything's right. Just that it was tight and   tight and good.   The Camel Walk then, I I just like, that's when I started   like, the punch you in the eye suggested something special was in here, but sometimes you never really know. Sometimes, you know, sometimes you'd think it's wishful thinking, and I'm guessing anyone who's listened to the show for long enough knows that I am guilty of wishful thinking to   probably   the biggest degree on Earth.   So some I'm aware of this, and sometimes you get wishful thinking.  

Yeah. The camel walk   was pretty great, and I started thinking, my god. You know? We're really now starting to see some just some   just some differentiated things happening in this first set.   You know? I might I might really I might really regret missing the show. You know?   The theme from the bottom, again, has, like, pretty differentiated jamming in it, actually, and it's pretty good.   And,   then it goes into Caspian, which   I didn't hate. Like and that is, like, crazy. Like, I normally, I'm not a Caspian liker.   And we we're probably gonna do the so what the thing we were gonna probably do in this episode   was we were gonna talk about the other forty minute jam in this tour.  



[00:23:46] Unknown:

Right? Mhmm. Correct. Which we'll probably have to do. Which we Maybe we do. Which we can. I think we can add it to the end. I think we can put a value on this with that. We'll see. But my We'll see.  

[00:23:59] Unknown:

My big   pain point from that jam, which was excellent. This was   the, what's going through your mind forty minute jam from   where was it from?   Already forgot where it's from.  

[00:24:16] Unknown:

It doesn't. Yeah. It's on it's on it's from YouTube. Right?  

[00:24:23] Unknown:

Where did they do it?  

[00:24:29] Unknown:

Yeah.   No. You keep talking. I'll find it. Well,  

[00:24:35] Unknown:

okay. I so I remember listening to it thinking we're gonna do an episode on it, and I have a lot to say about the jam itself.   But   when it ended,   it landed in the Prince Caspian, and I was really upset.   That's true. Like, I felt like,   I felt like I just listened to forty minutes   of a song just to have my   my gut punched.  

[00:24:57] Unknown:

So   I I just found out where the where the where the what's going through your mind was played, and we were just talking about it in shows we regret missing.   Yeah. I forgot about this until this moment.   It was in Pittsburgh.   Ah, okay. It was an indoor it was it was an indoor show, but   I think you might have caught wind that there was a storm that came through the the week prior,   and a true a part of a tree came in and down at my house. Power went out. It's a whole thing.   So that experience,   I had a free ride, free place to stay.   I think even a ticket at face value for that Pittsburgh show. Really? And then I listened to the what's going through your mind and immediately regret like,   it didn't stick with me because it probably would've affected my man my man decisions   this this week.  

But,   another circumstantial situation where, like, god didn't want me to go to the show for some reason.  

[00:25:52] Unknown:

And Something really fucked up with Yeah. There's something really fucked up going on because   I forgot that was in Pittsburgh. And so   how many forty minute jams in the state of Pennsylvania   does Phish have in its forty one year history?  

[00:26:08] Unknown:

I think we, might just have the these two. We might just we we might just have these two. Okay.  

[00:26:17] Unknown:

That's   okay. We start this podcast, two guys in Pennsylvania,   and   they do two forty minute jams   in Pennsylvania,   three weeks apart roughly.  

[00:26:29] Unknown:

Yep. And neither of us are there.  

[00:26:32] Unknown:

So yeah. And, you know, maybe it is it's like, you know, a lot of people so okay. We also miss Wednesday night, but that was for a different reason. And I was I was gonna miss Wednesday night regardless because that's our big meetup.   And, it's our big Bitcoin meetup, and I don't I love going to it. I don't wanna miss it. And in this case, I was there to sell my book   called Bitcoin for Institutions.   Link in the show notes.   So, like, I was gonna go to the Wednesday I wasn't I was gonna miss the Wednesday show anyway, but really that's so that's really the decision was really around Tuesday.  

[00:27:08] Unknown:

And Correct.  

[00:27:11] Unknown:

You know, I maybe we really were being sent a message. People at the at the meetup on Wednesday were like, what kind of fans are you that you don't go to your senior band play?   What kind of fans are you guys? Shout out Kyle. He went to both shows, bagged the meetup. Good for him.   And shout out to anyone else who missed the meetup to go to the shows.   But,   I was clear that I was gonna go to my meetup on Wednesday. It's fine. Right?   But people were, like, saying, what kind of you know? And we were having this conversation about the price, and it's like a lame thing to complain about.   Mhmm.  

But maybe really I mean,   the truth of the matter is we are we we took this band for granted   once again,   and I guess it took two forty minute jams in our state,   particularly one in our hometown.   Like, at what point you know, if we don't figure out if we don't figure out what's being told to us now, when do we?  

[00:28:12] Unknown:

Yeah. And I used to always tell my family and friends that if they keep playing close to where I live, I'm gonna keep going. Like, you know, with this   you know, when you get the squint, like, you're still going to fish shows, it's like, yeah.   And I think we both, through,   you know, rational   ways of thinking, arrived at a similar spot,   and we're paying the price.  

[00:28:37] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:28:39] Unknown:

It hurts. Why, you know, this is why you never miss a Sunday show. This is why, you know, these are the these are the   these are the things the band will do to you. This. Yeah. True.  

[00:28:49] Unknown:

So that that was that was all prompted off of the fact that the Prince Caspian from this show is actually pretty good.   A song I normally don't like, and I was real I felt almost betrayed that   like, if I had gone to that Pittsburgh show, I would have, like   you know, I just I I I would have been so happy for that jam. It was so good. The what's going through your mind was a wonderful forty minutes, but I sometimes,   I don't understand the choices   that are being made.   And to have that land in a Prince Caspian was   it was,   almost, I don't know, it was just very upsetting for me. And,   that this it was it was completely rectified in this show. Not only did they let us know   that Prince Caspian would not be eligible for a landing show just in case you're feeling something in the air, and you might think there might be a thirty or forty minute jam in the second set. We're gonna let you know right now. We're we're gonna take Prince Caspian out of contention   as a landing spot for that. Even though I know you guys are starting to feel something. Right? It's like, yes. But, no, we're taking it off the table, and we're actually gonna do a decent job with it.  



[00:30:01] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I I just don't like seeing the letters.   The shape of the words they say is what really can I don't like see I'm looking at it? I don't like even seeing it on the screen. So I'm I'm so I just really have a So and then a negative bias. Just rounds out with its ice solid version, about to run, one of my favorite songs, always they seem to always play in Philly.  

[00:30:23] Unknown:

Yep.   And David Bowie, which was, like, pretty good. Right?   Nothing special. Yep. Oh, you know what? I will say the David Bowie,  

[00:30:33] Unknown:

Well, it had a Prince Caspian tease in it, which I Is that right? Thought was interesting. Yeah.  

[00:30:39] Unknown:

I mean, David Bowie was cool. It had a very,   major melodic jam for the most part of the song, which is unusual   for David Bowie. Normally, that's   a minor key   minor key jam   for pretty much straight   away. And this was a major key jam that then resolved straight into the end of the the great end of the song. Right?   I mean, the days of legendary David Bowie's are behind us, but if they're still good   This was a this was a perfectly fine version.   There was a moment listening to this David Bowie where I've it was just like,   could it be? Like, could we could we see something special here? You know? Yeah. That's interesting because I I noted I took notes  

[00:31:26] Unknown:

on the the set two closer, which were I'm skipping ahead just briefly.   Oh, well, let's not do that yet. The that Let's not let's not No. I'm just saying that had that had the same dynamic of what you said. It's typically   it doesn't typically have, like, a major key happy kind of feel to it. So let  

[00:31:43] Unknown:

let us this one did. Let's go ahead and talk about it.   Ended   closed set two.   It's one of, like, the most interesting   I've ever heard. You know, most people like these four the twenty minute, thirty minute   But for me, I it was like, I heard a level of, like,   kinda metal   backbone   that I've never heard almost never heard from Phish before,   let alone Karini. Right? Karini is usually dark and hard charging, but this had it was Mike really Mike led.   Yes. I I heard that. And I don't the only knows Mike that much.   Right? This was a Mike led, like, really metal riffing,   kind of metal riffing backbone.  



[00:32:31] Unknown:

And that's And I think it's Yeah.   I I think it's due to the,   you know, I sent you that clip of him playing cat sounds on his on his bass.   Yeah. Because he used them in Philly.   So Yeah. I think he used them in the sand.   And I think that what we heard in is because   there were clips of his,   he went through his gear   right before the New Year's Eve show in MSG this past.  

[00:33:01] Unknown:

Yeah. Okay. So he did a little rig rundown. It's been seven  

[00:33:08] Unknown:

on a on a and I am sure that got back to Mike, and hence the cat sounds that he actually played during sand.   And I think this you know, the effect that we heard,   on was something he demoed during that during that video.  

[00:33:21] Unknown:

Interesting stuff. The was great.   Right? So It's fantastic. We get to the end of the first set. It's, like, almost like they're tapping the glass. Like, you're almost   I think everybody there was wondering is something might be in the air, but we're not totally sure.   But so far, it's pretty good set.   And then we had that great punch you in the eye opener. So maybe the question is, is there something to it? We don't know. Right?   Mhmm. Set two, they start with the, you know,   typical,   sand.   What's the history of sand opening set to?   And I'm not quite totally sure about I mean, I think it's it's not totally uncommon.  

Right?  

[00:34:05] Unknown:

I don't think it's uncommon.  

[00:34:09] Unknown:

So this sand,   in my like, just the way I experienced it,   it sounded like okay. So it was like the first twenty two minutes   were pretty sick,   and I thought it was gonna basically go down as a twenty two minute sand.   So it kinda felt that way,   and then something Yep. Something happened where that just didn't   that just didn't take place. And that the twenty two minute mark was the last time I thought the song was gonna end.   So, like, after it got over or whatever that, like, that potential ripcord   moment you know, dude,   there's so   many there's just so many ripcords.  

Right? I mean, to to be a fish,   enthusiast   is to be an expert   on when the ripcord's coming because that's like most of the time, you're hoping this jam continues, and it doesn't.   Right? More Right. Way more often than it does, it doesn't. And then your   your ear just is attuned   to, like, that rip core coming. And I felt it hard at that at that twenty two minute mark. I was like, okay. Mhmm. Great sand. Maybe there is something special in the air because that was a terrific   set to opener, and maybe whatever they do next is gonna have lift off.   And what they did was they stuck with sand.  



[00:35:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   It it's it's really good really good observation there because where they would typically just go into a new song that they would probably also jam out to a high degree,   they chose to just   use the jam as that vehicle. Yeah. Like, I'll love like, look at the tow 2019  

[00:35:48] Unknown:

with, Mercury.   Mercury,   probably about an eighteen minute version that they recorded   and then did the the   forty plus minute Ruby waves. I I believe it was   that. Right. Right. Very common for the second second song, second set to be the real long thing. Even though they tried with this jam vehicle called Mercury, which was a big jam vehicle at the time.  

[00:36:11] Unknown:

At the time. Yeah. Right? Now is sand a big jam vehicle? Yeah. Sure. It's a big jam vehicle. It's certainly not a forty minute jam vehicle. So,   Well, they they typically don't type to sand. And you know what I mean? And that's what you heard. That was the abrupt change that you heard as, like, them, like,   almost recording and then just maybe I haven't seen the video. I should go back and see what the body language was, but they probably Trey looked at somebody and said, we're gonna keep keep keep going. And Yeah. Just some history on sand. So in 2022, there was a thirty three minute version. So  

[00:36:44] Unknown:

so   let's call that a,   either a stepping stone to to to the Philly version   or an outlier. We don't know. Right?   But prior to that, it topped out at twenty six minutes   at Big Cypress.   So, like,   you know, you the the sand is a song that you just you just know, you feel very comfortable is gonna go twenty minutes   Yeah. And end in But I think beautiful way and end in a not a you know, where it's not boring and it's not, you know, contrived.   And, it looks like there's only so much you can do with one chord   and a pocket baseline  

[00:37:23] Unknown:

like that. Right? Right. Correct. And that that was what I was gonna ask you,   because   I remember the way our I mean, I list I watched the video as well, but I I didn't really pay attention to the body language we were just talking about and go back and look at it. But   you have many, you know, late, you know, high teens,   your twenty minute sands, but they're type one.   They never deviate   typically   from that that baseline,   the whole time.   I feel like I included I remember this sand. There there was an abrupt change into a type two version of the which is what allowed it to go that long.  

[00:38:04] Unknown:

Oh, for sure. I I mean,   okay. My memory might be wrong on this, but I wanted to say   that the there was an Atlantic City,   version that I had actually included in one of these episodes.   But it might have been the twist from that episode that was right afterwards.   It was. Yeah. Was it? So but that sand was also And I'm I'm just scrolling down here in the sand charts, and I'm seeing I'm seeing it. It's like it was a nineteen and a half minute version. And at the time,   not nine no. Sorry. It was,   it was thirteen thirteen minutes   thirteen minutes. But at the time, still one of the longer versions in it. But it was True.  

It was like, getting into type two category. It's here on the jam charts.   Anyhow. Right? But let's it's it's again, though, it's just one of those things you don't expect it's just like punching the eye. Like, you don't expect   you you fully expected that song to end at that moment.   Yes. And so that's very exciting. It was like that's by the way,   that moment,   I still didn't know there was a forty minute sand. So I, like,   I looked   on my car, like, in my Apple my CarPlay thing, and it was like, the bar wasn't even close to halfway. I was like, this doesn't this can't be right.  

[00:39:30] Unknown:

Right.   I still didn't know that this had happened. Right? I was like, no fucking way. This is one of those. Oh my god. That was the moment I looked. No. I think I did the same thing. And I and I had known it was forty minutes just because I it was I didn't I I listened to the first time on YouTube.   And I remember just doing other stuff in my garage where I have most of my hi fi shit   and,   checking and thinking the song it sounds like, oh, this is over and checking the the time. It was about halfway. It was probably the exact same moment that you, like, looked at your your counter.   Like, this song this song should be over.  



[00:40:05] Unknown:

And it it charged. Like, to to me, it was, the other thing when I was watching the timer,   I thought there's no way this thing is ending when this says it's going to because they were almost still in the jam until about really, they didn't land it until about   they gave it, like, a twenty second landing.   Mhmm. Just and that was it. Like And that was it. They had the presence of mind to try to close it as   sand.  

[00:40:32] Unknown:

Yeah. They did. It was very well done. The whole I mean Yep. Yeah. I And Like, I I just wrote write little shit down, but that was, like sometimes long jams, they have a hard time landing them, and they did a really good job.  

[00:40:43] Unknown:

And then the landing song,   I couldn't have asked for a better landing song,   which was my friend, my friend, one of my favorite all time Phish songs.  

[00:40:53] Unknown:

Yep.   And this is what I was alluding to earlier where Trey I assume you caught this. Trey had something to say to the fans.   Yes. And it carried on   through the rest of the show, really.  

[00:41:06] Unknown:

So here's so, obviously,   after the sand is over, everybody knows this is that kind of a night.   Now we know. Right?   Like, we clearly are just like everyone knows they're in some,   like,   insulated   spaceship.   Yeah. Yeah. It's equivalent of, like, let's say, three blockchain confirmations. Right. We're floating through space. Right? We're just floating through fucking space right now. Don't know what's don't know where we are or what's going on, but something special is going on. Right?  

[00:41:37] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:41:39] Unknown:

Let me just get a quick question. What   do you know what, like, do you know what problem,   like, Bitcoin really solved   with  

[00:41:55] Unknown:

decentralized On the compute on the computer science side?   Like   like the Byzantine's general   problem?  

[00:42:05] Unknown:

I would call yes. And and so So decentralized  

[00:42:09] Unknown:

consensus.  

[00:42:10] Unknown:

He solved Basically. Yeah. Satoshi solved the Byzantine general's problem.   The song my friend, my friend,   if you go through the lyrics, he's got a knife statement from the former wife.  

[00:42:23] Unknown:

I like where you're going. Handle,  

[00:42:26] Unknown:

You   know? It solves the double friend problem.  

[00:42:34] Unknown:

It's so good.   Yes. So, yes, to expand on the the Byzantine general, the the   the utility of of solving that problem is you prevent people from spending money twice.   That's right. It was a double spend time.   They they are interrelated. They are definitely without the business without and and the Byzantine general's problem was a long standing computer science problem   that was unsolvable.  

[00:42:58] Unknown:

Right. We should actually get so the okay. So fine. Before we get yelled at for saying wrong things, they were not the same thing. Yeah. The Byzantine generals problem is is about how,   is to centralize consensus.   But that is really the way the that's essentially what solved the double spend problem. The double spend problem is just how do you keep digital copies from being created endlessly.   And,   you know, really only Bitcoin and their proof of work.   You know, the answer is you make it really expensive. You know? Yeah. It's the tie it's the tie in to you have to expend energy to, to cheat it, and and that's why proof of work is important. When I when I thought of the double friend problem listening to my friend, my friend, it was one of those moments where I was thinking of every song, and I was like, man, this is one song I haven't heard of. I haven't made one single connection to, and then it came to me. And I was like, I am on to something.  

[00:43:49] Unknown:

This is That is great. Yeah.  

[00:43:51] Unknown:

And it is, like, one of my favorite songs. It's so good. And the fact that it ends   with them singing my friend, my friend, he's got a knife, and then it ends with and   then them laughing like idiots, like, Mozart in the movie, Mozart with that laugh.   Mhmm. Right? It's such a good Yep. It's such a the song is incredible.   And It really is. They didn't do the typical my friend, my friend ending. They just they were in a jam that had nothing to do with the song   and started singing my friend, my friend to the jam.   Mhmm. Okay?  

I've I don't even know what key it was in, but they just kept saying my friend, my friend, my friend, my friend, my friend, who's got a knife, and then they ended it with knife and   but but in the context of the jam, it was really good.  

[00:44:38] Unknown:

It was. And,  

[00:44:40] Unknown:

I didn't realize he said it in the beginning   also.  

[00:44:44] Unknown:

Yeah. He said it or he said knife early,   basically, before he's before his life is supposed to be basically the ending of the song with the with the with the schoolgirl   laugh   laugh chorus. You know? Them all going  

[00:44:59] Unknown:

Yeah. That's what I was referring to is the Mozart laugh from Yes. Yeah. Mozart.   Amedeo.  

[00:45:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Amedeo. In case the audience hasn't hasn't seen it now. From the eighties. It's classic. Everyone should see that.   Everyone should see that. It's, it was a legend. At the time, it was it was very critically acclaimed.   But,   yeah, they did it early. And did you catch what Trey Trey had a message for the audience after the song was over? Wait. Did you catch that? No. I didn't.   Yeah. So that was what I was alluding to where he said,   basically, I'm paraphrasing.   Yeah. Heard you guys   say that we don't, you know, we don't we don't say Mife. Like, we forgot that Mife is part of the song.  

[00:45:42] Unknown:

We have not was his response. Pretty funny. Is that even real? Does that even happen? Or is he just like Michael Jordan   just making up a beef for now just to talk about it?  

[00:45:53] Unknown:

I mean,   I've definitely heard people at shows being like   it's definitely it's in the zeitgeist. Let me put that I've never heard a salesperson complain that they don't say knife.   Well But maybe it's He might he   is he is he making making up drama? Yes. Potentially.  

[00:46:11] Unknown:

I could see Trey   basically just telling the band, you know, it'd be funny if we just basically made up this thing where the fans complained that we didn't say mife. Like, I could see that being hilarious.   And let's do it. Let's let's   and maybe they forgot to do it, like, eight different times.   And every time they forget to do it, it's gets even funnier.  

[00:46:34] Unknown:

You know? Yeah. And Yeah. It's like it's like the curtain. Like, to me, the they're the band. They have the option to do MIF or not. I don't really care.   But it's just funny that Trey Trey Trey just seems to this tour be like   he's sick of everyone's shit kind of attitude.   Like and I mean that in a in the best way possible musically because I think that's why they play crowd control  

[00:46:57] Unknown:

at the  

[00:47:00] Unknown:

Potential potential.   Sending a message.  

[00:47:03] Unknown:

All I know is do the undermine episode if you wanna hear about that song.  

[00:47:08] Unknown:

Yes. Please do.  

[00:47:10] Unknown:

But that's surprised to hear it. You know? I was like, oh, I wonder if there's something weird going on. You know? Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:47:17] Unknown:

But, like, the beginning of this sand is an example, and I referred to and I'll I'm just gonna point to this briefly. We mentioned what's going through your mind. There was a   there was a down with disease into ghost that   I realized   because I was watching video of it that Trey was, like, not   pleased with what was going on.   Fishman co sings that song, and his mic level was low.   And he's looking at Fishman, and he's and then Mike's looking at Fishman, and they're looking at Trey, and Trey's looking side stage at the board guys.   And and once the song gets going, which Trey sets tempo up with this Do you think he's upset at himself for choosing prince Caspian to  

[00:48:01] Unknown:

end,   to end   that big jam into?  

[00:48:08] Unknown:

Into what? I don't know what you're talking about. Upset because he had decided to  

[00:48:13] Unknown:

land the what's going through your mind jam into prince Caspian. Oh, I didn't I didn't even I didn't even know that that was Yeah. And That was the next song. Well, right. That's what I've been talking about this whole show. Right? Is that Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I forgot that detail. And it was such a, like, a gut punch.   And I, like, I I think he has to feel it. I know everybody hates that he did that. There's nobody at that show saying, oh my god. What a great landing spot. What a great thing. The   it's like the joy encore at Camden that one year that everybody like But the only worst choice he could have made was be, like, doing like, the line. You know? That song everybody hates.  



[00:48:51] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that is universally  

[00:48:53] Unknown:

I like it. I don't just don't need to hear a show, but I do think it's a good song.  

[00:48:58] Unknown:

Yeah. It's about bad. So at this on May 5, the song's about basketball.   So during the sand, I this is my observation. And Yes. My friends think I'm crazy that I I see things or I look look   like, I read I read too much into things. Oh, you belong to the show. Fucked up they fucked up they fucked up opening the intro to the song pretty bad. Sand?   Sand. The sand the forty minute sand. Didn't notice. Like, it was just sloppy.   Interesting. It was just bad. And whenever I see something like that, like a flub   Mhmm. I always look I'm like, oh. Yes. This is where Trey May has to make up for the flub Yes. By doing something spectacular on the backside. This goes back to And I Famous Free from 12/2894,  

[00:49:42] Unknown:

I think, you know, when  

[00:49:44] Unknown:

Fishman fucked something up and he'd started the whole thing over, and then it became And then they just fucking murdered it. Yeah. Yeah. So so if you if you go back and and listen or watch,   they they fuck it up. Nice.   And   that I think is could have been the impetus for trade as opposed to ripcording at twenty two minutes or whatever. Like, look at So something was in the air. Were fucking going. Yeah. Something was in the air. Exacerbated by a masturbated by a fuck up.   Yeah. And dare I say, Trey was maybe a little a little punchy, hence the punch you in the eye opener. I don't know. That's a that's a good possibility.  

[00:50:17] Unknown:

Now it's interesting that that I mean, I don't know how much thought goes into this, but punch you in the eye is a Wilson song.   And Mhmm. Encore with Wilson. And so he clearly and he wanted   to he wanted to talk about Wilson suede and leather really badly.  

[00:50:32] Unknown:

So, like, I'm probably show more I'm missing the show more and more, dude. Yeah. You're absolutely right. This is, like, all fucking orchestrated and premeditated   about Philly and King of Prussia, and it's fucking all oh, man. We missed it. We missed it, man. We missed it.  

[00:50:47] Unknown:

We missed it. I just, like I think only   letting this audience know how bad we feel about it will make it will make it better, make it stop hurting.   Like Yeah. I I it's a privilege to have this feeling. I can only count it on maybe one hand how many times I felt this way.   Yeah. But there those losses are permanent. You can never go back. And that's the thing you gotta understand.   You can never go back and undo it,   and that's the beauty of it.  

[00:51:18] Unknown:

Yeah. The beauty of it is   with   without exploring   the alternative   to going to a fish show, how would we've been doing this for so long. Like, we've lost touch of what it was like to not go to fish. You know what I mean? So I feel like this was   experientially really important, and it kinda set like, without the highs in your life, you you or without the lows in your life, you can't really fully appreciate the highs. Like, that type of Yeah. Sinusoid   dichotomy   was good to experience. I love that.  

[00:51:51] Unknown:

No one's gonna know what you mean by that, but that's awesome.   That's like a But I don't know. A wave. Right? Basically, a wave. It's with all the Peeks and valleys. I mean, that's the thing. Look, dude, if if you don't   you don't take them for granted, you don't know this feeling. And then you don't know the feeling of   just   being you know, having conviction again and wanting and making sure you don't fuck that up again.  

[00:52:19] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like when you when you didn't buy, you know, $1,515,600   and, you know, you'll never do that again. Like, you'll learn. It's part all part of the learning process.  

[00:52:30] Unknown:

Yeah. So are there any shows in your graveyard that are notable   for having done this to you?  

[00:52:39] Unknown:

I mean, Coventry was a big one for me. Well, okay. And I know you went to Coventry.  

[00:52:44] Unknown:

Yeah. It was the worst fucking thing that ever happened in the history of the world.  

[00:52:48] Unknown:

But but since but since Fish has come back into since they returned from Coventry,   I've gone to all the shows I wanted to go to except  

[00:52:58] Unknown:

I've wanted I mean, Pittsburgh, I wasn't planning on going, but I did miss it. And Fish undid the pain of Coventry by coming back for you. So, like, that like Yes. The only reason you were upset was because you thought you'd never see them again. Yeah.   My my big one is Big Cypress.   I don't know if I woulda had a good time. I don't know if I would have even kept driving   through   thirty eight hour   traffic. I don't know these things.   I don't know what kind of fan I would be, but the I   really regret not having gone.   And,   you know, in some ways look. The reality was Big Cypress and it was like a pre   I don't know, precursor maybe to Coventry,   but it was great.  

But the fact is,   it was a local peak and everybody knew it, and then they started going on hiatus. And so   I felt the pain of   I felt the pain of Big Cypress   long through two thousand   five, six, seven, eight. Right?   Like, that was really probably where I felt it the most   because   you and and in some certain ways, the band coming back   and being great again undid   that gut punch to me.   Yeah. But   it's still like, I, like, I had to live with it for a long time.   And even, like, when the bank came back, I don't think there was a moment where it took a long time for me to feel like, oh, they've it probably took me to the baker's dozen to start feeling like they're doing on another level from when they were Yeah. For me, it was mag Magna Ball, baker's dozen, which were right consecutive years. Magna Ball was 16.   Yeah. Magna Ball was, like, the first sign that they were back really, really, really bad. Really bad. Like, they were back to their old selves, but in the baker's dozen, it's like, oh, no. They're doing new shit. They're they're doing their antics again. And go to episode 13 where we did the baker's dozen. You can hear all about that.  

But then and then capped off by Caswell Vox,   Like, you okay. They're actually they have exceeded   they've actually exceeded themselves. Right? They outdid themselves yet again.   Yeah. And, look, if they're gonna start committing to jamming like this, maybe they are maybe they are gonna outdo themselves again because that's really where that's where it started. It started with,   I think, Magna Boss slash Baker's dozen. That's when this this there was, like, a sort of a local commitment to jamming that,   you know, was   we hadn't really seen them do up until that point.  

Yeah. And,   just if we're going through the history,   I'll probably do this again in another episode, but I'm gonna do it here. Mhmm. We can talk to them. '19,   when they finally like, I think in 2019, they had a massive commitment to jamming, but that's that tour, that summer tour just didn't show it because,   they had so many new songs that   I think they didn't know   how they didn't know how to get all these new songs in.   And,   they they probably said to themselves,   let's let it come naturally,   and we're gonna have plenty of time to figure this out. But then 2020 came and obliterated   like, it it just obliterated them, and they never really got a chance   to get all of those new song. I mean, we're talking,   Castle of Vox   Goes to the Forest.  

There's new Sigma Oasis, new album. You know, there was a lot of new songs that they were Yeah.   They were trying to just get off the ground. Right?   Yeah. And then 2020   was really bad   because those songs never got the life that they're the band knows how to do this, and they know when they I think they were going to have a commitment to jamming,   but it got quiet.   And, you know, and you can kinda see spots. You see spots in 2022   and 2023.   You see you know, you just see this in spots, but it   you know,   maybe maybe now is the time to talk about the stage layout, and maybe that's the the catalyst for why we're seeing this in 2025.   Because it it feels like they've been try you know, they've been trying to   blast off   on a new level for a little while, but something happened this tour.  



[00:57:21] Unknown:

Yeah. And I and, you know,   they changed   when Fishman got moved to the center of the stage   I don't know when that was, but it was during the era you're talking about. Yeah. I wanna say twenty fifth. It was either '14 or '15, something like that. Yeah. So it's interesting because it's like two stages of evolution in the sense, but I would say   the way you just laid out their progression, it's been very linear   with twenty twenty, twenty twenty one being, like, just a void.   But when they picked it back up in '22, it's like they they did pick up right where they left off in 2020.   My opinion.  

That they were on this trajectory regardless, and it's just kind of like vacuum that was COVID.   By the way, I wanna acknowledge the fact that the fans,   organically,   there's a lot of people that don't acknowledge that COVID was, like, a traumatic event or a big deal.   The fact that the fans decided to call fish, which has has one point o, two point o, three point o is when they return from their breakup,   And now there's four point   o, which is everything after COVID.   And I just think that's interesting that the commune that the the fan base not organically   came up with this   mark in the sand that's pre and post COVID fish deserved a new Yeah.  



[00:58:39] Unknown:

To me, there's no doubt. I think any it's whether the hiatus is decided on, planned, or not.   Let me let me ask you a question, though. Is there a notable standout show   in four point o   prior to   this show we regret? Is there a notable standout show   that everybody agrees  

[00:59:00] Unknown:

Like, with something in name, like a Tahoe tweezer or a Yes. Yeah. Like a, you know, Halloween. There's not you know? There's this be waves of decks. Cool.  

[00:59:10] Unknown:

Yeah. It really was.   But is there a standout show  

[00:59:15] Unknown:

in four point I mean, yeah. Yes. It would be the it would be game the game henge gag.   Okay. So it's a New Year's show. But that's a pretty that's a pretty monumental   most New Year's shows don't get that kind of recognition   or have that kind of but, yes, the question, it's kind of a cheat because, of course, game henge would be that. But But, like, is there a non think of. Well, it's is it are you saying that because they played So no. Or is it because of the I'm saying because it was   oh, okay. Yeah. I'm saying because it was a scene. It was something that everyone that went will never forget type of thing.  

[00:59:52] Unknown:

No. But, I mean, is there like like, twelve thirty one ninety five is a standout show because of   it has, like, the best versions of several  

[01:00:00] Unknown:

Understood.   I understand what you're saying. Like, a a show with multiple standout   versions other than the one we just missed on Tuesday. I think, like, a couple of Mexico shows  

[01:00:11] Unknown:

kind of Yeah. I was gonna say Mexico, but that it doesn't count. It's like it's Mexico. So I was this is what I was thinking. Like, there's not a,   in my mind, a consensus standout show.   I think,   this show is is this show is a standout show, I think. I think it'll go down as a standout show. The man man man one.  

[01:00:33] Unknown:

20 Yes. Twenty twenty five man one goes down. Especially with with the with all the connections you just pull yeah. From beginning to end, it was it had intention behind it.   Right? There was   it was it was kinda planned   as far as the narrative and tying in Philadelphia and Wilson and   the callbacks.  

[01:00:53] Unknown:

Just the whole it had it all. Right? It had it all. Yeah. It really did. Had the fun. It had the jams. It had the long jams.   It had   the pranks. It had the ref the inside jokes. It literally had it all. Right?  

[01:01:08] Unknown:

Yep. Yep.  

[01:01:10] Unknown:

So I do think I think it goes down as a standout show.  

[01:01:14] Unknown:

No. I think you're right. And I'd have to rack my brain to to come up without anything else in in this in this era. But let's go back to the, stage the stage configuration. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So   as soon as I started you know, Phish is awesome. Like,   just to kinda point to people, if if you've never checked out their YouTube channel,   they usually put up the most desirable   song slash jam that was performed at a given night   for free.   They just put it out there,   which is very generous. I don't subscribe to Live Fish,   which is kinda crazy, but I I just don't   I don't have any negative feelings about it. Just something that's never I never felt the negative.  



[01:01:54] Unknown:

Not having. But,   I I can't I can't imagine living without Live Fish.  

[01:01:59] Unknown:

Yes. And you mentioned that. And I can't I can't imagine, like, not having Spotify or something. You know, everybody has their thing. But   Yeah. So when I go check out, like, what's fish up to this tour, I'll go to YouTube. And what jumped jumped off the screen was they they reconfigured themselves where   and and they reconfigured themselves in multiple ways.   But at the base level, Fishman is now stage right from the fan from the fan's perspective,   which means Paige is still on the left, and you have now Mike Mike and Trey in the middle of the stage.   And,   you know, when they move Fishman back to the center in 1516,   like we just talked about, I felt like there was intent the intention behind that,   and maybe you can speak to this fundamentals,   was that Trey was trying to sync up more with John Fishman.  



[01:02:52] Unknown:

And I think he just wanted him closer. It felt like more of a listening Fishman. It was to hear each other better, and I think they lost Yes. They got rid of a monitor,   and they were trying to listen to each other just more.   I feel like Trey talked about it on one of Tom's under the scales podcasts.  

[01:03:08] Unknown:

Okay.   I that's why I've wanted to ask you if you had heard, like, interviews potentially about it.  

[01:03:14] Unknown:

Yeah. But so if you're ever gonna listen to Under the Scales, Tom had   a tray on for a two parter that is very much worth it.  

[01:03:22] Unknown:

I have to go go back and listen to that. So, anyway, so the other thing I noticed was the band is much more closely spaced.   Yeah.   And what I found out is I went back and and looked at a,   a video. I mentioned Mike went through his rig.   So at the sphere, Mike tells this story.   When they played the sphere,   they weren't allowed because of the way the sphere is set up with their sound system. They weren't allowed to put any speakers on stage.   So it forced them all to do in ear monitors   where they don't have like, Mike has huge two huge cabinets behind him with, like, 18 inch woofers. That's his normal setup. Trey still has his cabinets for, like, 10 inches or whatever. I'm sorry.   I know. It's kinda lame.  



[01:04:05] Unknown:

But Mike says, oh,  

[01:04:06] Unknown:

well, when when you played the sphere, I just I I liked it more   for whatever reason.   So the reason why they're all on risers now, because Trey has a riser too, which I'm sure the crew loves because they probably just have this thing. They just roll out and place as all his pedals set up. They just plug it in and go. So it's probably great for the crew too. But the reason why Trey's on a riser is because Mike has to be on a riser   because because he doesn't have speakers behind him.   Again, with the sphere, all this tech stuff, he has rumbles, his transducers   under his platform.  

So he can feel what he's playing in his feet through his body.   And that's how Mike   hears himself   through these transducers.  

[01:04:47] Unknown:

It's like a it's like he's not even a human being.   It's like that. It's like he says he's he's like a he's like a puddle of slime that feels himself   through   the wind.  

[01:05:00] Unknown:

Yes. He's an he's an enigma wrapped in a wrapped in a meow pedal.  

[01:05:05] Unknown:

It's very Mike.  

[01:05:07] Unknown:

It is.   So I could notice that   Trey was,   I doubt Trey likes this very much  

[01:05:19] Unknown:

because his mic stands, like, bouncing around with his dancing. Yeah. If that's how we're getting these and these these extra long jams,   I'm all for it. Yeah. Keep it going.  

[01:05:30] Unknown:

And then the last thing I'll just I'll just note about Paige is   the key the organs that he normally play, I would say he plays the most, like, 60% of the time, used to face away from Trey, used to face off the stage.   That's how he would be sitting. And there'll be times when you'd watch I'm sure you'd experience this where you're like, you almost lose page. You know what? Because you can't see him from the audience perspective. Like, he's back in the corner,   and he's really far away from Trey.   But now it looks like he flipped those two instruments. So now he's facing Trey most of the show. And like I said, he's already closer together. So it's like they're almost, like, relatively on top of each other compared to where they used to be. And I think that's probably helping with their   cohesiveness.  



[01:06:11] Unknown:

So maybe we're on the precipice maybe we're on the precipice of another golden era of of fish and jamming and outdoing themselves. It's very well it's very possible we could be in this   like, in terms of   like, we're feeling something special in the air. We are in the we are in the first three minutes of this punch you in the eye   of a long   potential three to four year period of   a total upgraded jamming yet again.  

[01:06:38] Unknown:

I think I think you might and you predicted this, by the way, in the Baker's Dozen episode. That's like we're in that moment where, like, is this gonna happen? We're because they haven't done it yet. Yeah. They haven't outdone themselves, but maybe that's maybe we're starting to see it happen.  

[01:06:52] Unknown:

Exactly. Prior to us asking the and maybe it is the universe hearing us.  

[01:06:58] Unknown:

Hearing you in particular.  

[01:07:02] Unknown:

Well,   you know what? I would choose my own religion,   worship my own spirit, but if he ever speak to me, I wouldn't wanna hear it.  

[01:07:11] Unknown:

And buy his book, Bitcoin for Institutions.  

[01:07:15] Unknown:

Thank you.