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Fundamentals
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Jason
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Intro: Terrapin Station, Phish 08/09/98: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvjHH_G-4_8

Outro: He's Gone, Grateful Dead 07/02/89: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRwq9HrkTI0

Extra: Box of Rain, Phish 10/25/24: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esYk_QqjYgo

In this episode, we delve into the profound impact of the Grateful Dead and their cultural legacy, contrasting it with the journey of Phish. We explore the unique aspects of the Dead's influence, particularly their role in the psychedelic movement and their ability to create a traveling circus-like atmosphere that captivated millions. The discussion highlights how the Dead's music served as a backdrop for a larger cultural phenomenon, while Phish focused more on musical excellence and sustainability, creating a different kind of legacy.

We also touch on the intersections between the Grateful Dead and Phish, including notable covers and the influence of Jerry Garcia. The conversation extends to the broader implications of these bands' legacies in the context of Bitcoin and the idea of excellence and longevity in one's craft. The episode concludes with reflections on the song "He's Gone" and its symbolic resonance with both Jerry Garcia's passing and the ethos of Bitcoin, emphasizing themes of departure and transformation.

[00:00:52] Unknown:

While the fire   lights are low,   strange shadows  

[00:00:57] Unknown:

and the flames will grow. No. This is going to be the,   this is going to be a very grateful episode.  

[00:01:04] Unknown:

Yes. And you know what? It's a great time to to to remind ourselves   in this   in this,   crazy world we live in   that,   practicing gratitude,   goes a long way.   Picking your picking up one spirit.  

[00:01:20] Unknown:

I mean, for me, I I don't know how I don't know how grateful the grateful dead were. It might have been more dead than grateful.  

[00:01:27] Unknown:

Exactly. At least by the time I became aware of them, I think they were definitely,   dead across the Rubicon into being more dead than grateful.  

[00:01:35] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that's true. By the time I started going to my first shows, it was certainly like that, which was   '93.   You know? Tell really the tail end.   But at least you probably last good year. Was like At least you caught them. I mean, you're you're really fortunate, I mean, to have, experienced it firsthand. Indeed. And I am grateful. And, you know, it's just one of those things. It's, you know, I I think we're lucky   if we were   coming of age in the early nineties. It's super lucky.  

[00:02:07] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:02:08] Unknown:

You know?  

[00:02:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I get torn say about it. I get torn between because a lot you hear a lot of people reflecting back on, the nineties as a decade.   And,   it's like, is it just nostalgia because of my   it was my formative years, or is there really something to really signal there?   Where where the nineties that great?  

[00:02:31] Unknown:

They were pretty great. I you know, when you think about it,   you go back. I mean, it's   it's not   I mean, they were rigged. It was rigged. You know what I mean? Like Mhmm. It was rigged to be great and totally unsustainable,   but, like, we had no, like, map you know, we were in between the eighties where we were worried about getting nuked to death.   And, you know, we found ourselves in a   period of relative peace.  

[00:02:58] Unknown:

Yes. Good point.  

[00:02:59] Unknown:

Right?   But,   it had to end because, you know, they couldn't   they just couldn't have it.   They couldn't live with the peace.  

[00:03:11] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like And,  

[00:03:14] Unknown:

it's such an issue. It's just isn't yeah. Interest just a really interesting time. So,   Yeah. What are we talking about here? We're talk you know what we're talking about? So, you know, I'm not gonna back to, like, why don't we go back to to Vegas? Like, what Well, before we start this whole   Okay. We'll go back to Vegas Okay. Which is like,   so this is the first episode we're doing after the Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas.   And I'm happy to tell people here that,   I showed up without a ticket,   and,   I really felt like a fish guy. This like, I the second I got off the plane and kinda it was real to me,   I had a loose   I had a loose idea of what my ticket might be.  

Mhmm. I had some   I had a small amount of confidence in it, and then   I turned down a lot of people that were offering me free tickets because I was just gonna go with this one. But,   you know, I gotta say the,   the ability   to be okay   in that space, I think, is something that   30,000 people have a problem with. And Yeah.   I singularly   seem to be just fine.   I you know, it's my third year going to the Bitcoin conference.   So, like,   I'm trying to think what show I went to where I didn't have a ticket. I think it was actually my fourth show was the first one where I just showed up without a ticket. You know? Where I realized I could. You know? Like, you know what? I think I can figure out how to get a ticket on the lot. I don't really have to go through all this.  

[00:04:49] Unknown:

And was it through, was it through your network or through just hanging out in front of the venue with your finger in the air?  

[00:04:56] Unknown:

Finger in the air. This was,   this was Garden State Arts Center,   July second nineteen ninety four.   So we went to the man on July 1, and this was the moment my little friend group was like, alright. Where are they where are they playing tomorrow? And we didn't have the Internet to go look it up. So we were just I think we had to call a phone number. Like, the Doniak's vice had Yeah. The Doniak's hotline or   and, we found out, oh my god. Are you kidding me? It's just up in Holmdale, New Jersey, which is my hometown, like, where I grew up.   And,   so I felt very confident about you know? I was like, well, we don't have tickets. It's gonna be okay. Yeah. I think we you know, we were just the man. Everybody was everybody had their fingers up, and everybody, you know, everybody got in. Just wanna get in. Yeah. So yeah. So we were like, alright. We can totally do this. And,   you know, it's not something I particularly enjoy doing   at shows. You know? I like to enjoy my I really do I don't wanna spend   I I, like, I wanna look forward to the show. I don't wanna have to look forward to the stress of I'm not a big go to the lot without a ticket guy. Let me make that clear. Yep. You know? That's not my thing at all. Like, I   I don't wanna think about it at all.  



[00:06:09] Unknown:

Yep. You know? Yeah. You want that to be it's like it's like having a reservation   at a restaurant. You know?   If you're a planner. Yeah.   You know, it's just feel better to have not only one reservation, but maybe even a backup.  

[00:06:22] Unknown:

It's yeah. Exactly. And so I think I never really   because I'm a bit of a loner. Right? I never really built my fish crew up to to where   I could   just go to shows and not have to worry about getting tickets. Right. You know? Same.   Yeah. So, like,   but I've seem to have broken through something here in the Bitcoin space, and maybe it's just because of the Internet presence of everybody and how Right. Much bigger it is. And Yeah. You know, it just seem to seem to have gotten myself to the point where I can do it. Yeah. And you have People are   people are paying as much so I'm sorry. How can No. I'm sorry to go.  

Our chemistry at episode 14 is still,   still working itself out.   Good. And I was gonna say something literally stupid, and I'm gonna say it so people know how stupid it was. Just No. Please go. Go ahead. Just   add this great point that, people are paying as much for fish tickets these days as the Bitcoin conference.  

[00:07:21] Unknown:

They are.  

[00:07:23] Unknown:

It's been great that I got that out. No. I it's  

[00:07:26] Unknown:

it's it's it's good that you said that because   I wanted   to zoom in a little bit on the fact that,   the fact that you were in Las Vegas.   I think we we texted each other, like, being in Vegas for anything other than fish.   Like, that environment That's right. In addition to you not having a ticket.   The fact that you were in Vegas definitely stirred up some   feeling and maybe some comfort of not having the ticket because you're in Vegas, and it's just not a fish show. It's the Bitcoin conference.  

[00:07:57] Unknown:

It all just felt it all felt very right. Can I tell you a story about I was in, Shadrach's   van getting a ride?   Yeah. And,   so he was it was a we were at the   so, we   Grieser   and Palmer   convinced me to go to this thing called spamming Bitcoin, and it's like a   serious event. It's like a conference outside of the conference. I mean, it was literally like the ordinals conference.   Right? Okay. And it's absurd sounding enough, but they, you know, they were really excited to go. And,   you know, not that they they weren't even looking to troll it. Right? They're   they view this as good entropy.  



[00:08:41] Unknown:

Okay. Now paint the picture here. Are you are you in the conference? Are you out outside of the front of the conference?  

[00:08:48] Unknown:

We're talking in this spamming Bitcoin thing. Yeah.   No. Inside. Like, they had tickets. Like, they litter like, they they might they actually had tickets, and,   I took   Maggie Morris's ticket who was the telecom.  

[00:09:03] Unknown:

Okay. And,  

[00:09:05] Unknown:

they like, and I I see something it's so interesting. Right? It's like these guys super young, but I see something as,   not to get too off track here, but, like,   going somewhere that is literally the opposite of where I would ever ever wanna go and just to experience it and get viewpoints from people at totally outside my echo chamber. Yeah. It's pretty good. It it was pretty good experience.   And we did a podcast   out we did a podcast in the in the cafeteria there, and people were like, hey. What are you doing? And we're like, oh, we're just here making fun of you. And they're like, oh, it's awesome. Oh, that's great.   And,   why I brought it up? Oh, it's because,   so Shadrach gave us a bunch of people through his ride service,   a ride back to the Venetian   where the Bitcoin conference was. And I just was telling a story about, like, you know, my first time in Vegas was '98.  

And,   you know, we we were passing almost passing by, like, where the Tropicana was. That's where we stayed.   Mhmm. And,   lo and behold, some guy all the way in the back of the van just goes, are you a fish fan? And I was like,   yeah.   He's like, I knew it.   And I'm like, how'd you know? He goes, nobody knows what year they came to Vegas.   Nobody even talking nobody certainly, nobody talks about it that way. Yeah. Nobody says I was here in '98.   And that was a great moment. I was like, dude, do you listen to back on the chain? He's like, I don't know what the hell that is. I said, well, okay. Well, here you go. Yeah. Here you go.   So, god. I wish I remembered his name. I know him by his face, and I probably would know him if I ran into him. But I hope you're listening, my friend.  

You've you've embarked on the Grateful Dead episode. Yes. We will get into that. Yep.   But, yeah, it it's, like, weird. Vegas is so associated with fish for me. Almost it's almost exclusively associated with fish. Same.  

[00:10:57] Unknown:

I'm not a gambler.  

[00:10:59] Unknown:

It's not that weird. And, you know, the like, you know, maybe   Craig felt the same. You know, Craig who   really Craig at Bitcoin Magazine who Mhmm. I think occasionally listens to podcasts from time to time. He's a fish fan.   And I'm guessing he has he was feeling the fish vibes when the whole time he was anticipating  

[00:11:18] Unknown:

doing this in Vegas. Yeah. Yeah. Can't help it. Especially if you've done it multiple times and,   you were at some of those amazing shows. You know what I mean? There there were some that weren't amazing, but most  

[00:11:31] Unknown:

I never put together though. I never, like in the entire time, I didn't, like, make the connection to say, like,   Phish deciding to I'm sorry. Bitcoin Magazine deciding to put the conference in Vegas now is   yet another connection.  

[00:11:45] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:11:46] Unknown:

Because Phish isn't really doing Vegas anymore as we discussed last week.   Right?   You   well, sorry. I I I shouldn't say that. They they, like, they do the sphere. They're not doing the big Halloween   weekends in Vegas anymore, which we like, because when that that doesn't go on the calendar unless they've got, like, an ace of spades up their sleeve   Mhmm. Of an idea. Right? Yep.   And that doesn't seem to be happening anymore. Although, you know, who knows? We'll see.   It reminds me of a point to contrast with the dead when we when we get to it. Okay. The dead never did any never did any of that stuff. Yeah. I mean, I'm shocked,  

[00:12:25] Unknown:

frankly, that fish after they dressed up like spacemen,   that that that wasn't, you know, that that was jumping the shark or something as it relates to doing Halloween in Vegas. But I was just like Yeah. When I first saw that. The shark, I thought it was pretty awesome. I remember hanging on every, like  

[00:12:39] Unknown:

not to get not to make this the Halloween thing, but, like Mhmm.   Every clue and all of this every clue they had and every song was I just remember hanging on every freaking tweet.  

[00:12:51] Unknown:

So I was,   great, great weekend. And and I think I mentioned this when you brought when you brought that show up previous in a previous episode that I was so I don't know what bubble I was in when that was going on. The lead up and the and the and the performance   just completely off my radar for some reason.  

[00:13:09] Unknown:

I mean, I think the band that comes back from the future is coming to ring fish's bell, not the beds. I think that's   you know, whereas the dead was a band of the present.   Yes.   You know? Mhmm.   I   I can't wait. I got really, I've been looking forward to doing this episode,   for a while. Was there anything else about Vegas we wanted to talk about? No. I just wanted to make sure we cover the,  

[00:13:34] Unknown:

beyond the not having a ticket similarity to the actual just being in Vegas is is, Yeah. It's a great connection. You know? Yeah.  

[00:13:44] Unknown:

Yeah. And, you know, look, Vegas was a good time. They're gonna do it again next year. It's I hate it.   You know? Like, I I really do. You know, Vegas was never it's like   it's meant to make you feel bad if you're not, like,   you know,   complete degenerate.  

[00:14:01] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:14:02] Unknown:

You know? I've always said, like, no matter how, like, wealthy you are or whatever your position is in life, three days is the max you can spend there before you just can't  

[00:14:10] Unknown:

take it anywhere. It's a good point.   And the stark contrast, I would imagine, between the upbeat, optimistic   kind   of Bitcoin   vibes, and then you'd step out of the conference and you're in   the depressing smoke filled casino floors with people pressing screens and doing whatever?  

[00:14:31] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you kind of I don't know. You kinda ignore it and get immune to it. I'll say I had I got fish vibes from the event that,   you know, Jeremy and company put on at at,   at the nerd, which was almost like   a,   like, when I say it was fish like because he put on a very ambitious event,   which was it's called it was called satirize the system and   got a couple of big panels with, Caitlin Long and Trace Mayer. Like Yep.  

[00:15:04] Unknown:

Then you had Rob and Zach, right, and some others?  

[00:15:07] Unknown:

Rob, Zack, Morton, Richard, and q and a. I forgot I messed all that up on when I talked about this on rock paper Bitcoin, and I messed that whole panel up. It's all good.  

[00:15:18] Unknown:

But and then midget wrestling. And Yes. I mean, that's normal. Really ambitious. I saw that. I was like, yeah. That makes total sense. Midget wrestling. Why not?  

[00:15:27] Unknown:

Do you wanna explain that at all? It it  

[00:15:30] Unknown:

I don't know. Not much to explain. It's pretty it was just cool. It was very ambitious, and it was pulled off. And it, you know, like, it reminded me of just going for the you know, again, the spirit of going for it.   Right? Yeah.   And I'm pretty sure, like, I can tell you right now, we're sitting around talking about how to do it better next year. So it's, like, already it's, like, already in the works. So,   you know, we're that that's   that's a spirit that lives inside of us.   Mhmm. And,   you know, whether they know it or not, they're connected to this legacy of what Phish has shown us as possible.  

[00:16:08] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:16:09] Unknown:

Which is what I think we'll get into. We will.   How do we wanna start? Yeah. How do you even begin? How do you begin like, this is, like, the episode I had in my mind for a long time. I didn't know if we would get this far, to be honest. I didn't know if we would do 14 episodes.   Mhmm. So now that we're here, you know,   like, how do you even introduce the dead? I mean, I I feel like if I'm gonna tell try to if I assume that most of the listeners don't even really realize  

[00:16:37] Unknown:

who the dead are. Assumption.  

[00:16:41] Unknown:

I probably would say they were the most legendary,   culturally impactful band that's ever ever existed. I think that's   fair.   You you know, there and, like, the   I can only compare and contrast them with Phish. You know? They're they had a version of their traveling circus   that   was   existed fully in the present   so much so that, you know,   like,   a lot of people   gave their lives up to go on tour with the dead, whether they did it for one tour or whether they did it,   so I'll say sadly forever.   But, like Yeah.   It was there was this notion of the you know, in so the dead's time   was the mid sixties through the   mid nineties.  

That was, like, their time of operation.   Mhmm. And they toured   consistently   almost totally consistently through that period of time. And their tour was a traveling circus in a certain way  

[00:17:44] Unknown:

Mhmm. Where  

[00:17:45] Unknown:

they really would just go on stage and do their thing, but it was, like,   the   the crowd that   so, like, if you just zoomed out and watched, like, the crowd follow them from show to show, right, and just the population center that their shows would be,   it was a spectacle. It was just you know? Mhmm. And I don't know when it started, when in this May you know, when in the seventies, the whole the, like, they really started in with playing, you know, like,   ten plus night runs at big arenas.   Yeah. Something you know? Or even, like, massive runs at, like, 90,000   Stadiums. Capacity type arenas.  

Yeah.   But that's that like, that's what they were doing. I mean, so anyone familiar with Phish knows, like, basically, the the largest thing Phish ever played was their own festivals Yeah. Which,   you know, were maybe once a year that were they made you travel to the forest corner   of the country to go. Exactly.  

[00:18:51] Unknown:

Proof of work   to just go.  

[00:18:54] Unknown:

Indeed.   But, like, they were never feeling they were never like, Phish wasn't that and it's a lot of it is just the difference in what people are looking for out of these two bands. But Fish was never   never playing   arenas like that. They were not playing Giants Stadium, these long runs, or RFK Stadium or,   sorry, JFK Stadium in Philly or, you know, like, these   massive   just,   you know, the dead existed   to bring these crowds   Mhmm. In a certain way.   Yeah. K. Right? And maybe at some point, I'll try   to tack onto the book like, tack this onto the book heads. Well, there's book heads. I don't know if we've talked about it in the podcast at all. You brought it up really briefly. There's   there's a book called Heads. Everybody really should read it. It's really good. It's   really, really good. And I'm not just saying this because, you know,   the author was somebody who I've had you know, who I had a relationship with, and I hope to again. And I hope to actually have him on podcast here.  



[00:19:53] Unknown:

Yeah. That would be great.  

[00:19:55] Unknown:

But the book I think I think the tagline for the book is, like, a called a biography of psychedelic,   culture, something like that. Okay.   And it puts the dead in a chronology   with fish   and other things like the, you know, like the creation of LSD and the other things that   you know,   really showing and telling the story that the dead   was a massive distribution network,   for ideas,   sharing the ideas at the time, the ideas of freedom.   I really think they were channeling this free this freedom, this adventure in a very repressed,   you know, a repressed version of America or what seemed like a repressed version of America at the time.  

It's interesting that they came in right after what the fuck happened in 1971.   It's kind of interesting, right, that that's where they   launched off of. I mean, they weren't doing much in the sixties   outside of the Bay Area.   Right.   But then once the gold windows closed   in 1971,   And, it somehow you know, it's just very coincidental, right, that they would then just that that's their rise. That's when they they went to Europe, and they,   you know, became just an international   phenomena.  

[00:21:15] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:21:16] Unknown:

Right?   Really appealing   to   the, I think, the kinds of people that   yearned for freedom and event and, you know, they felt very,   very stuck where they were. And there was no Internet   huge you know? So there are a lot of people that just really felt like they want it you know, they were   moved by the open road and, like, you know, the writings of the Beatniks.  

[00:21:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Kerouac and the others. Yeah. And the like.  

[00:21:46] Unknown:

Mhmm.   And the   dead,   you know, they   they were excellent.   Every you know, their music   was excellent. Their musicianship   was excellent,   and their songs channeled   this. I their their playing style channeled this spirit of adventure.   I thought, like and especially so when they started, they were more of a bluesy   you know? I remember. Bluesy act, but they were   they were running these things called acid tests where they, you know,   them and the crowd were all beyond acid, but they were their style musical style was very bluesy   pig pen. Their keyboard player was,   like, the heart and soul of the band.  

You know, there are stories that he and Jerry   Jerry Garcia,   who, you know, most people associate him with the dead.   Mhmm. But there were stories early on that they clashed over style and   direction.   Obviously, Jerry was   a blues guy. He's a folk guy, but he Mhmm. Also had other visions for how, you know, how he wanted them to sound as well. And   when Pigpen died,   they became   more of a spacey   psychedelic,   group.  

[00:23:08] Unknown:

Yeah.   Improvisational.   Right.   Do do you think their improvisation   expanded?   Yeah.  

[00:23:19] Unknown:

Yeah. So the so they were   I don't know if it was unique. There were other, like, there were other bands that were,   you know, in the drug kind of in the drug culture.   But,   I should tell you, you're getting real latency here. I don't Okay.   Yeah. Oh, I don't know if you were just sitting   still.  

[00:23:41] Unknown:

I might have been.  

[00:23:42] Unknown:

Probably.   So throughout the seventies,   the band sort of   so, Pigpen died. I don't know what year.   '70, you know, early   early mid seventies. He was a Okay.   He died at a very young age of cirrhosis.   Like,   he was a very heavy drinker and died, like, in his twenties of cirrhosis.  

[00:24:03] Unknown:

Oh, dang. Yeah.  

[00:24:06] Unknown:

And,   when he left, really,   Jerry   Jerry took over the vision of the band.   Right? And then, you know, if you think of their most legendary shows, you think of the Cornell show in 1978.  

[00:24:19] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:24:21] Unknown:

And you think of what make you know, you just the musicality and the   the adventure is you know, I think blues can be limiting   in if the if you're just, like,   if that's all you're doing.   Yeah. It really is. Getting. I mean, I know, like, you have banned their contemporaries like the Allman Brothers were made made   made a lot out of the blues. You know, just made it you know, really, we're able to stretch it very, very far, and we have bands today, like,   Derek Trucks and, you know, Government Mule and bands like that that go very can go very far in that genre.   But Jerry was   beyond that.  

Mhmm. And I think the rest of the band band as well see you know,   seem to want to be beyond that.   So, you know, I'm talking as a Phish   fan. So as a Phish fan, I speak of musical.   The, you know, everything centered around the music, but that's not how it was. I really don't think that's how it was for most people. Well, well, it's interesting the book you mentioned that the subtitle. I didn't I never wasn't aware it was it was focused on psychedelics because,   Biography of Psychedelic America, I think is Yeah. Because I think  

[00:25:24] Unknown:

you you know, you mentioned pre Internet. So, like, the way information traveled was a lot different, a lot a lot slower, let's   say. But psychedelics,   LSD in particular, just focused on that.   Yep. You know, a lot of people attribute   and I think even some of these innovators   have whether written about or spoken about the impact that LSD had on them from a creativity standpoint,   from an ability to tap into God knows what.   And that led to us to, you know, computing,   personal computing.   And, you know, but I'm and I and I'm looking at Bill Gates and and Steve Jobs. That's who I'm thinking about right now.   You know? Whether you like those people or not,   they had an impact on on   on on on at least on Earth,   maybe the universe. Who knows?  



[00:26:17] Unknown:

But, I mean, yeah, you could say MK Ultra had,   you know, had the impact too because that's where it came from. Right?  

[00:26:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. There's I know there's a lot of different stories on the origins of LSD.   I'm not gonna say I have strong opinions on it, but I definitely will look at the impact that it had on society.  

[00:26:40] Unknown:

It sheds light, though.   It sheds light on people who've   maybe get upset at   the idea that the CIA could have created Bitcoin.   It sheds light because it's like, you know what?   Sixty years later, it's gonna you're gonna have you know, it's it's just gonna be a the network is gonna do what the network does. Yep.   And, you know, certain way, LSD was a decentralized you know, was a decentralized network that had unintended consequences for its creators.  

[00:27:08] Unknown:

Yeah. And nobody, like, goes back and, like, you know, who who I wonder if the CIA created fire or if they created the wheel or   the lever. Like, who cares?   Now we have it now. We know about it. It's total sigh   But,   the reason why I brought that up is because when I got introduced   to   Bitcoin   in a real sense, in the sense that I was seeking out content,   was, like, 2020   late twenty twenty. You know, my first buys were were the for previous cycle, but   Max Keiser just happened to be somebody that I was exposed to early on,   and I was shocked to hear him talk about Bitcoin as   being psychedelic.  

And it really I understand. It really grabbed me from a curiosity standpoint. And I was like, I gotta I gotta figure out what this thing is. I've never heard anything. I don't understand how that's possible, and then it started to click.  

[00:28:12] Unknown:

Interesting. Right? Yeah. And Yeah. So so, you know, psychedelic America, it's so this is   my interest in, like,   bringing somebody like Jesse Jarno into this conversation would be to ask the question, well, is there another chapter to the book?   You know what I mean? Is there another chapter now after 02/2009?   Yeah.   Right? So that's when it was written. The question that's really the question we're asking on the show for the most part in   in very on a inarticulate way,   you know,   inarticulate.  

[00:28:45] Unknown:

Yeah. And I know you've you brought that book up early in   early episodes of this podcast. So that's interesting. Now I'm getting you're kinda revealing why   why you brought that up and why you think that's  

[00:28:57] Unknown:

potentially impactful to especially get him involved in yeah. Is there another chapter to that book that's that's cool? And he has a look. I mean, he has a particular voice in the space. I mean, it's weird. I met him when he was, like, 14 years old  

[00:29:09] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:29:11] Unknown:

And got to know him pretty well, but he ended up having a really impactful voice. I mean, he was he got through to Trey for Christ's sake. Right? He wrote   he wrote the essay that got them to really that got him   moved him to do what the debt could not, which was finally just   walk away.   We've talked about that enough here. But,   it's just the fact that it's that you know, look. There's a there's a connect you know, there's a connection here with this guy   that he you know, he's no again, he's no ordinary figure here.  

[00:29:46] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:29:47] Unknown:

Okay. Right? And so he here he is, also wrote this book,   and would be the only person really I could ask,   you know, and get a satisfying answer to if you'd thought that there was an you know?   That Bitcoin could bring in another chapter. Right? An evolution of all that. Yeah. You know, I mean, Bitcoin wasn't created for psychedelics.   Right? But either   I don't know if fish was created for psychedelics either. It just Mhmm. Happened to be a natural,   very natural thing for it to revolve around.  

[00:30:20] Unknown:

Yeah. That would be a question I would ask. It would be like, what makes what makes something that isn't   what makes something psychedelic? You know what I mean? Like, what does that what does that mean?   And that's not for us to answer.  

[00:30:33] Unknown:

But No. But I think it's interesting because   it you know, in my opinion, purse my personal,   like,   experience,   my personal opinion with psychedelics   is that they are made   they are here to to expand   our view of who we are.  

[00:30:55] Unknown:

Yeah. And I I for better or for worse. And and to expand and our view of not just who we are, but the nature of   everything that we see.   And it's You know, the nature of things. The true nature of things, of the dynamics that that that make up our universe.  

[00:31:16] Unknown:

Oh, that's good. Yeah. And then it's like it makes a lot of sense to me that Bitcoin   would elicit   people to wanna do that, like, just as much as fish would, if not more.   Right. Just as much as the dead would, if not more.  

[00:31:31] Unknown:

Right? It would make a lot of sense. Yeah. And I think what Max was tapping into is the idea   he, you know, he it was imply it was he was implying that he had experience with psychedelics since he discovered Bitcoin.   I mean, that was the only way he could make that statement.   And I think what he was trying to say was that   yeah. That he that Bitcoin is such a complex just like,   music is such a complex   experience   and that it's like   the output of it is   all these variables come into play.   There's different individuals,   different,   whether if you're writing a song, like, the inspiration for the lyrics or the the framing, the melodies,   and that psychedelics give you a,   those those connections,   that map of that Venn diagram, if you will, of what, you know, was funneled into the output,   you can see that more you can see that more for what it is   under the influence of a psychedelic.  



[00:32:33] Unknown:

And Bitcoin I also like yeah. I think of it as shaking up the snow globe.   Like, if you live inside the snow globe and somebody shakes it up, that's sort of what the psychedelic experience I like that. That's a very  

[00:32:46] Unknown:

distilled Yeah.  

[00:32:47] Unknown:

Yeah. It's very disruptive,   and you have to do that in order to see that things are different.   Right? And then you settle in. Yeah.   You settle in and you see things. You're like, ah, and then everything's okay.   Yeah. And it it's like I was talking about last night about how Bitcoin wrecked completely wrecked my whole sense of  

[00:33:08] Unknown:

feeling comfortable about the world. You know? Right? Dude, I was smiling doing. I was smiling so hard when you said because I don't think you you've ever, you know, said that phrase before. Obviously, it is it in the book?  

[00:33:21] Unknown:

Like that wording? Or is that That wording is not in the book. No. Okay. It's but Because You know, that Nobody talks   everywhere.  

[00:33:29] Unknown:

Nobody really talks about it in Bitcoin,   but I I feel like that's probably more common than,   than we realize.  

[00:33:40] Unknown:

And they should. And it's like people it's kinda like, if you're   a psychedelic influencer, I'm sure these people exist. Right? Mhmm. I guess Joe Garcia was was one was one such. Right? But it would be like   talking about it, only talking about the cool things you see, and never really talking about the pain,   the prison,   and the   the difficult   moments that you have to fight through and who you have to become to,   you know, to get all of it.  

[00:34:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Right. It's that social mediaization where, like, everyone just shows the best version of the best side of their lives.  

[00:34:17] Unknown:

But I'd say, like, even Jerry Garcia. I mean, he was on a mission to   when he was at a when he was at a site,   he was trying to dose the promoters. He He was trying to dose Oh, wow. Anyone who he thought was, like, not, like   who was not gonna be on the level. He basically was out dosing them. I didn't know that.  

[00:34:36] Unknown:

I didn't know that about him at all. Well, I didn't I heard that about some of the I know it's it's it's very fucked up.  

[00:34:43] Unknown:

You know? And, People used to dose, like, punch bowls and stuff. Right? At part, like, that was a thing. Yeah. There's such an analogy to   what he who he was,   right, and what he did   to basically it's like, you know, he was sort of a bull in the China shop with his thing, and it's sort of like today's influencers are like that too. We're like, they're just gonna talk about how great it is.   And,   you know, if you're, like, not doing it, you're not working with us. And you're just not you know? And it's it's almost like   I'll find a way to force you to do it Trojan horse style or whatever.  



[00:35:18] Unknown:

I did not know that. Wow.  

[00:35:20] Unknown:

There's a, yeah, there's a documentary on I saw, I think, on Amazon   that was getting it was about their Europe 72, I think. I think it was a Europe seventy two trip.   Basically, Jerry was dosing everybody. I mean, he was, like, walking through the crowd,   looking for people to dose.  

[00:35:42] Unknown:

That's amazing.  

[00:35:44] Unknown:

It's really yeah. And, you know, yeah, like, we it's   I don't even know if we can judge it right now. But, I mean, obviously, it's fucked up, but, like, it's like, we can't even transport ourself into that time and understand,   You know?   I don't know. And, you know, Jerry's not around to explain to   speak for himself. I mean,  

[00:36:06] Unknown:

Yeah. I've read I've read a couple of interviews, like, later,   like,   Rolling Stone interviews. Like, there's one in particular where it was after he had,   you know, cleaned cleaned himself up.   Mhmm. And I know that was, he struggled with that after that after this interview. But   I I just remember this one quote where they were like, you know, so why did you think why do you think you you were,   like, what was in it for you? What was the payoff with doing the drugs? And he's like, I don't really know, but I was really, like, I was drawn to it.   I know I needed to go through, like, a period of that,   but I'm not really sure what the what the, like, learning   what I learned from it.  



[00:36:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think it was all part of the sense of adventure.   You know? I mean, that's what they were channel channeling. That's who they were. And   at the time, in this country,   in in our world, right,   that was the way   that you channel that you, you know, channeled adventure.   You did you know, that you would walk a tightrope   professionally,   do something very risky. You get on stage, like, high  

[00:37:15] Unknown:

Mhmm. Is  

[00:37:18] Unknown:

a very risky thing to do, particularly if you're a band   that,   you know, you know. You   you lose, like, one millimeter of a connection with somebody in the band, and then, you know, you just sound like a bunch of you sound like,   you know, a pile of,   trombones and violins   falling down flights of stairs. They're falling down the stairs. Yeah. And there's, like, no you're like, you go out of phase for, like, a split second, and it's, like, really hard to get it back. Yep. And so you go on let's so to go on   stage in that state is a really risky thing to do. Yeah.  

You know, and Fish dabbled   psych with psychedelics   certainly on stage   when they felt safe to do so.   They weren't getting, like, super high on stage until the later until until later on as we Yeah. Which we talked about. Enchanted.   Yeah.   And that highlights I mean, look, I think all of these things highlight   to me the big like, there is one big difference   between the dead and fish. And so well, there's two. One is, fish. I mean, the dead had this cultural impact.   Right?   They reached   so many people. Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of people.   And to the point where they even reached   the people in their lives who didn't know of the dead because they were impacted because   they people were disappearing. Like, people were disappearing, like, Atlas Shrugged style   to go on a detour.  



[00:38:51] Unknown:

Right? Like I didn't know that. Was the go what's that? I didn't know that.  

[00:38:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, they we knew that people knew where they were, but they people were leaving their lives   Got it. To go toward the dead, and they were dropping out of society to do so. Now I'm not saying millions upon millions of people did that, but Understood. A lot of people a lot of people did do that with you know, sometimes they did it for two weeks.   You know? But, like,   that's that's what dead tour represented. It was like a place you can literally just,   you know, you can you could live your life. Mhmm.   So Phish was never that. You know? Phish was always, to me,   always about the music, one hundred percent   first and foremost.  

Even when other extracurricular   activities were dominating the scene, and music was always the most important thing.   And I think that's not just true for the band. That's true for the fans.   Yeah.   So this is, like, really where I bring in the big contrast.   And it's not like Phish is better for this reason. It's just that they clear you know, it's a clear   demarcation.   And, you know, I think it explains the,   the breadth of the impact.   Right? Fish,   you know, was logarithmically   less impactful than the debt.   Mhmm. Right? Like, you like, by   by factors of   easily factors of 10 x and Mhmm. Less impactful.  



[00:40:32] Unknown:

Yep. But  

[00:40:33] Unknown:

they did something   they did something else. They had a different mission, and they were doing something else, which is they were focused on music, and   they managed to,   so far, do it for forty years, which is something the dead never even came the dead never came close to doing.   You know, the dead had their run, and then they burned out.   I should say the Grateful Dead because there's still the there are still these things out there called the dead. And Yeah. There's a lot of,   iterations as far as far as I'm concerned. The the   the Grateful   Dead stopped existing   on August ninth of nineteen ninety five Yes. After Garcia died.  



[00:41:10] Unknown:

Yes. Agreed.  

[00:41:13] Unknown:

Right. I mean, what goes on at a,   you know I mean, we'll have to cover at some point here. I just want I want you know, I definitely wanna cover,   Fish's interaction with the dead.   So, you know, I I have, like, three or four things in my mind about that. So there are definitely some there's definitely some intersection where they play their music, cover their music Mhmm.   Etcetera. But, like, this, the   I think the biggest contrast that I think people should just take away here, right, is that   the fish thing somehow,   managed to be much more   sustainable   even if it and maybe because it was lower in scale and maybe because it was focused on one thing. And, you know, they were able to get all their fans to strictly focus on the music.  

Yes. As as many as much drug use that goes on in fish shows Mhmm. It's still secondary.  

[00:42:09] Unknown:

Yeah. So true.  

[00:42:11] Unknown:

Right?   And it's almost amazing   to,   like, really genuinely experience it with the crowd. Yeah. Especially,  

[00:42:21] Unknown:

you know, dozens of times. Like, it takes a few ex like, you don't get that That doesn't get transmitted to you at one show. Like, yeah. It's it's a Yeah. You have to go to multiple show. You need more you you need n equals a larger number to really have that sink in.  

[00:42:36] Unknown:

But, like, I can say this   not because I I was never a big, you know, not a big drug user. I can just say this from my observations and being around fish for thirty years. I can say it very confidently   that   even people who are degenerate drug users,   they are they they still they're prioritizing the music, number one. Like, if I'm standing next to them at a show, we will be locked we will be both be locked in in the same thing.  

[00:43:01] Unknown:

%.  

[00:43:03] Unknown:

Right? And they won't be like, dude, you're messing with my trip or anything like that. They would they would be like you know, they would really like like, did you hear what just happened?   Exactly. It's always that way. And this is like again, the most   what it's what makes Phish,   not the band, but the whole, like, really the whole thing. And there's we would it's what makes their traveling circus so special.  

[00:43:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, you just I think that's great insight, and you just you just, I think, corrected of of something that I believe to be true, which I now realize is not   that's not this this the causal relationship I got wrong,   where   I thought it was, like, a gentleman's agreement or, like, an unspoken rule as to why you never see a fish crowd with their phones out.   Because that's such a prevalent thing everybody points to every time they see a picture of of or they watch   the any live performance that everyone's like, look at all these idiots with their phones out. The way they should just be experiencing it.   Yeah. And I you just pointed out that I always thought it was, like I said, like an unspoken rule. No. It's just because everyone's so concentrated on the music and knows that everybody else is too,   that that's the reason why they keep their phones in their pockets.  

Because they're they're they need to put all their attention towards what's going on on stage.  

[00:44:20] Unknown:

In 2025,   there are no more gentleman's agreements about keeping a phone put away.   You know? My kids go my kids go to Waldorf schools and they're you know,   there was a time where there was an unspoken agreement that you just didn't wanna look like a douchebag with your, you know, with your phone out.   Like, if you're sitting in a parent meeting or something like that. You know? You wanna Yeah. You know, your, you we are positioned in the social hierarchy is determined by how much you can resist having your phone out. Right? Yeah. But in 2025,   like, it's all gone.  

Everybody has their phone out. Oh, there's no pretense anymore.   Mhmm. And yet at fish shows, people still are paying attention.  

[00:45:00] Unknown:

That's It's  

[00:45:01] Unknown:

unbelievable. Yeah.   And it's almost like fish was created to withstand   the in they were create you know, they were created to,   ride   the Internet's   success or grow with the Internet, and they were created almost created to   create a culture of people that would resist the worst   at least some culture of people that would resist the worst aspects of it. Yeah. And maybe we are being strength maybe we are being selected for a bigger battle   that is and may you know, maybe this is maybe the lesson is the reason we need fish around   is because   we need   we we still need people who aren't gonna pull you know, who can keep their phone in their pocket.  

It may be for that stupid one one reason   to train,   like, to train the good people of Bitcoin   to make to let them know it's possible   that you cannot you know, you could spend two hours with your phone in your pocket. Mhmm. It's actually important to do so. And, you know, what happens to your mind What actually happens to your mind at a show when you don't interrupt your, you know, when you don't interrupt it with with  

[00:46:13] Unknown:

phone? With pixels. Yeah.  

[00:46:16] Unknown:

You know, good old fashioned,   you know, drug induced dopamine   release or retention or whatever people are doing,   you know, combined, though, with the ritual of this ritual of music. So   Mhmm. The crowd   the, you know, like, the crowd plus the band, the focus and attention, like, the fish's traveling circus is a different animal, different beast than the deads. And I think it's, like,   more electric signal   going on,   strictly   about strictly about the music.   And I think that's   just maybe what we need. It's maybe what is needed   for what we're about to go through. Yeah.  

That's why the fish maybe   was visited from the future   in a way that the dead wasn't. And,   so, I guess, one other thing   one other   just point of comparison   is that,   you know, we talked about the baker's dozen, and we talked about fish, like, continuing to try to top themselves.   And maybe maybe it's over, maybe it's not, but the fish just had this arc of wanting to top itself and having these big, big events.   The dead never did any of that. You know? The dead's big event was always just their next show. Yeah. It's almost like the dead was like a blockchain in a certain way where it's just the next block TikTok, next block. That's all they did. All they did was just have new shows.   Right? Next day, next day. Grateful dad. And,   you know, and, like, all it did was   be, like, an absolute,   zero to one   thing for society.  

Yeah.   So all they did was exist, and every time they existed again, it taught themselves.   Mhmm. Whereas   fish was always fish was just trying to create something, I think, much more special for its smaller for its smaller family, smaller groups. But Just another interesting   comparison.   Yeah.   Right? Do you can't even think of I I don't even think you can think of   a thing the dead did that was, like,   a stunt. Like, that you know, or, you know, something like  

[00:48:30] Unknown:

like Other than, like,   I always go back to like, I'm a   I'm an audio gear.   I don't wanna say I'm like   a enthusiast, but I'm   I've had periods of my life where I've been exposed to, like, the difference between, like, a high end amplifier  

[00:48:46] Unknown:

and, like, a commercial grade  

[00:48:48] Unknown:

one. And   I I I do recall when I learned about the wall of sound   era   of the Grateful Dead.   That was   that was, pretty cool, and that that was fueled by LSD too. That that whole the the the individual engineer that developed all that was was a   a   a an advocate, let's say, of LSD   enthusiasts.  

[00:49:11] Unknown:

Like, yeah, for them to exist was a feat. And so just every next show, it's it's not I'm not saying it was ordinary or boring. It was it's like every time they printed another block.   Right? Every time they did another show, it was yet   another continuation   of this   epic thing that shouldn't  

[00:49:30] Unknown:

you know? So almost Yeah. It was, like, literally a rinse and repeat. It was a rinse and repeat process for them. Right? Is that what you're saying? Like, every every show, there was nothing Well, I'm not saying that necessarily. What I'm saying I'm saying that well, it it was,  

[00:49:46] Unknown:

but,   it is it like,   their existence was epic.   Mhmm. So for them to continue to just keep doing keep doing this thing,   their ability to do you know,   was   what was topping themselves. They just kept topping themselves by continuing to play   Got it. And to draw 90,000 people to yet another show and do it amazing and give people this once in a lifetime experience. Really, for most   people, it's a once in a lifetime experience to go to a dead   show. I don't know, like, how I mean, you know, I've talked about what my first fish experience did for me, but, like, I don't know how   many people go report that they went to a fish show and their whole life changed.  

You know? It's just because when it's just music   like and that's so so it's just so interesting. It's just so interesting because, like we said, the dead didn't do anything, like, as a onetime   thing to try to top themselves. They didn't plan anything super big, but every show was, like, potentially life changing for Yeah.   Everyone who went.   It's It's just interesting that, you know, Phish was is not it's just not like that,   but   it's more of the,   I think this is now finally what we discussed. Whereas, like, as Mhmm. When we can observe as Phish fans what they do, what they did, like,   we could observe that they   just committed to being excellent at their craft.  

Right? As excellent as they can possibly be.   And,   that   shows us that it's possible to like, it's it's actually possible. Like, you know, you can just be the best.  

[00:51:34] Unknown:

Yeah.   For forty years.  

[00:51:36] Unknown:

For forty years and counting with no signs no signs of stopping.   You know what? I was talking to, Shadrach.   I was talking to Shadrach driving home yesterday   from the meetup and,   you know, saying, like,   Phish is, like, the only band that   didn't sell out.   Yeah. Like, quote, unquote, that And that's like  

[00:52:00] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's and that's key to what you just said. That's   a lot of people go into their whatever their   their craft is, and they wanna be excellent. And they have principles, and they know what that looks like, and   they, you know, they have great intentions.   And then along the road, those their incentives get get pulled and things change.  

[00:52:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Now they lost control temporarily   of themselves   and their crowd,   but they were able to pull together. See, the dead lost control   very early on and then  

[00:52:37] Unknown:

never got Oh, I'm just saying, like, no. Like, the average person, the average individual, the average band might go into their career with the, like,   we're just gonna be excellent, and they have a framework. But then they deviate from that. Out. Like, everybody's  

[00:52:50] Unknown:

I'm I'm I'm not saying the dead did this,   but, like, the the the few exceptions there are,   they burnt out.   Yeah. He Shadrach mentioned the band tool that they'd never sold out, but they they ended up not   putting an album out for a very they just ended up stopping for a very long time. So, like, they you know, you either sell out or you burn out.   Or you stop participating. Right? You stop participating. There's something there's something about Phish that that tells us there's another option.   There's a there is an option of excellence and longevity.   You may with there may be volatility  

[00:53:32] Unknown:

Mhmm. In this path.  

[00:53:33] Unknown:

Okay? But there's an option of now you have to be the goddamn best. Okay? You have to be the best. You,   you know, you cannot be some   some larp.   Right?   And,   I love listening to, like,   people like Jennifer Hartwick   and,   people Desirond Douglas. Guys, people that play in Trey's band who, like,   talk about, like you know, Trey is this easygoing guy and everything like that, but they they all know that if they're not playing to, like, the absolute limit of their ability,   they're gone.  

[00:54:09] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:54:11] Unknown:

The Trey has no you know, the Trey just he like, it's not like he'll be mean. He just doesn't care about you unless you are pushing yourself to the edge of your ability.   And so, like, what I want people to understand is that it is while it's possible,   right,   the recipe is is   a ruthless pursuit of greatness.   And a lot of people fail in doing that, but, like, that you mean, at least because fish succeeded, we know it's possible.  

[00:54:41] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:54:42] Unknown:

And   in Bitcoin,   you know, a thousand of us can try now, and 10 of us might build something   really incredible.  

[00:54:51] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:54:53] Unknown:

Right? And we don't have to you don't have to do what,   influencers do   and, you know,   shill   bad   products  

[00:55:04] Unknown:

or lie for their, you know, CEOs or anything that you carry Yeah. Or or or use your podcast as a platform to talk about all the companies that, you know, you're you're funding. You know what I mean? Like, these kind of  

[00:55:18] Unknown:

You don't yeah. That's right. You can just   be the best.   Right. Right? You can just do that.   And to me, that's fixed to me, that's Fish's legacy   is the is who they have taught that to.  

[00:55:36] Unknown:

Yeah. You can That that that this is possible.   That in in whatever you do, whatever you   first, I think it it points to and I've been saying this since I found Bitcoin. I think it matters how you decide to make money. How you it's a it's a choice. Right?   At the end of the day, like, you don't have to   be   a a corrupt business. But, you know, what whatever. Somebody that is,   knows they're they're in a system of misaligned incentives and   value extraction and exploitation and whatever.   I think that matters first and foremost. And second,   you don't have to comply.  

You can find a path forward where you're you're excellent at providing value to to to to others.   And whatever whether that's with   goods and services,   you know, stuff you physically produce as an artist, whatever.   You can do it, but you have to be excellent.  

[00:56:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Let's   the the Grateful Dead was at was absolutely excellent.   You know, Jerry Garcia is one of the is one of the great like, even before he joined the dead, he was   a very accomplished folk guitar player, like, incredible.   Mhmm.   You know, he will go down as one of the greatest guitar players that's ever walked the face of this earth. And,   you know,   the dead were far more than Jared Garcia.   They had, you know,   Phil Lesh,   you know, Bill Kreutzman. These guys   these guys, they they they were a great, great, great   band. No one you know? And,   so I just wanna make that   make that clear. It's just that they   collectively   we're they they were caught up in something a lot bigger than their music, that their music their music was the background music for something much bigger.  



[00:57:35] Unknown:

Right.   Good point.  

[00:57:39] Unknown:

It is just so that that it's like that's the subtle that's the subtle point.   Do you want let's talk   let's hit a couple   talk about the fish and the dead. So,   Okay.   You know, I first   everybody, I think, when they got into fish   found the the twelve one eighty four tapes   Mhmm. Of, you know, them playing scarlet fire.  

[00:58:03] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:58:05] Unknown:

Fire up the ganja cover.   Yep. I think eyes of the world is on that. I do. Yeah. Too. So and so, like, a lot of people when they first get into fish   develop the wrong idea   of, you know, that there's some kind of that they're really connected to the dead or something like that. Right? Because they were Yeah. You know, that's, like, the first it's not I mean, there was a time where that was the first known tape, 12/01/1984.   A lot of people thought that was their first show for a long time. Ironically, that is the day I was taken to, the Seaview Square Mall in Eatontown, New Jersey to get my first guitar,   12/01/1984.  



[00:58:44] Unknown:

Yeah. Are you serious?   No. That's cool. My That's cool. A present for that, you know, that year. That's awesome.  

[00:58:52] Unknown:

Yeah.   So so the, you know, there there was always this association   upfront,   and a lot of the fan base, I think, expected   for a long time   to be more to be you know, for there to be more of a Grateful Dead presence in their shows. Right? But they really after   essentially, after their first couple of shows where they play those covers,   you never heard   a dead song again.   I have   either heard or read that Trey   explicitly distanced himself. He stopped going to shows. He was afraid of   he was afraid of the dead inner like, interfering with his creativity.   He loved them. He loved Jerry. He loved the dead, and he   but he was in what he knew is probably the creator prime of his life.  

Right. And he didn't want it altering his He needed a pure signal.   His signal.   Now that I think they took it really far. I think what I think the band just took it really far where they, you know, they never covered   it again until   1998.   Yep. The famous Virginia Beach. And and   famous Virginia Beach show. God.   Is that we're gonna have to do is that gonna have to be the outro? Oh my god. Oh, it might have to be because I love how we come up with the outros during the show. Yeah. Because the the audience roar Just the how gradual it is as as the as  

[01:00:23] Unknown:

the people around this. It's just so good.  

[01:00:27] Unknown:

Yes. Okay. Great. So so   so,   you know, I'm not that I'm not that up on, like, why or how that happened. I know it was Jerry's birthday,   1998.   So it was three years after it was three years after he died. Mhmm. It wasn't it was just random, and they just said Nobody was expecting it. And, you know, it was incredible and glorious.  

[01:00:51] Unknown:

It was glorious. That's the right word.   And then never again. Then never again. And then never again. And then I think everybody knew this was this is the one this is because it was his birthday. Like, they just happened to   Well Which is funny. I got that wrong. I thought it was the anniversary of his of his passing.   So it was it was his birthday.  

[01:01:11] Unknown:

I had that wrong in my head. Which was yeah. Yeah. Which was what was what's the day of his birthday?  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

Look it up.  

[01:01:19] Unknown:

You wanna hear a funny story   real quick? This is inside   this is inside Bitcoin podcast baseball here. But,   the first time   I went on high hash rate,   they gave me a date of August 9.   And I said, that is so cool because that's the day Jerry Garcia died. Mhmm. And so they said August 9 at midnight.   Well, for them, it was 9PM Pacific time. Okay.   And,   I stayed up, and,   I get on, and I was like, where are you guys? And they're like,   it's not August 9. I mean, because I was midnight. It was, like, midnight. I thought they wanted to get  

[01:02:00] Unknown:

Oh, so you have the day that you were a day early? I was a day early. Yeah. I stayed up and  

[01:02:05] Unknown:

for no no reason. Jesus.   And I was all set to talk about Jerry and Jerry dying and all this stuff.  

[01:02:13] Unknown:

That's funny. So that's, that's my conflation. It's just those dates are are only eight days apart.  

[01:02:18] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   So they do   they play, like,   they play Terrapin Station in on this day in 1998,   and then   never again do they play a Grateful Dead song. Well, sorry. I shouldn't say never again. But   because   well,   last year when Phil died, didn't they did did they not do   Box of Rain when they opened?   Did they not do that, or am I thinking of a different band? You tell me.  

[01:02:49] Unknown:

I don't I I that snoozed to me. We're gonna have to look that up. So I'm I'm doing it. So 9898  

[01:02:56] Unknown:

happens   and then nothing else. And I think you're right. People   were no longer expecting them to cover the dead   until until   2015.   Okay? So now '20 you fast forward to 2015,   what happens? Right? It's the   it's the twenty year anniversary of great of Jerry passing, and they do what's called the fare thee well   tour.   Yep.   And   the surviving members of the Grateful Dead,   actually bring Trey   to play the role really to play the role of Jerry   Yep. To be the guitar player for all of these shows. And they were at Soldier Field, which is the last   show they played before Jerry died. Mhmm.  

And after Trey learned the entire Grateful Dead songbook for that tour,   a lot of people started to expect to hear some Grateful Dead songs.  

[01:03:51] Unknown:

Yes. That is true. I remember that.  

[01:03:54] Unknown:

And   nothing.   Still nothing. And then we go we get to the baker's dozen   and not hear a single Grateful Dead song when they we know how That like, hard they're reaching for covers. Yep. That was a shock for a lot of people. Yeah.   When   but so people need to understand. Like, when Trey, like, makes up his mind   about something,   he   know he knows what the fans ex there's, like, this certain lane where he knows what the fans expect, and he explicitly wants them to know he doesn't give a shit.   Right? And the Grateful Dead is a big that's, like, a big lane for that.   Mhmm. It's a huge lane for him to sort of express himself and say, look. And I love the fans, and I'll I'll do anything for you guys except this. Yeah.  

You know? Maybe I'll do it once in thirty years and you know?   And just like that's the qual like, you know, again, the performance quality of Trey,   of, you know, just   directing this ship.   Right? He never wants the dead thing to get ahead of what the band's doing, and he just knows how big I think he just knows how big it is and how big it can be.   Yeah. And   this just always has an eye out to contain it. Yep. Right? The fact that Fish's music's always was at the forefront is not an accident.   Right? It's a very deliberate,   it's just a deliberate proof of work.  

Yeah. Almost like every day he didn't do a dead cover was like him printing another block. Right.  

[01:05:27] Unknown:

You know? On the, on the fish on the fish time chain. Yeah.  

[01:05:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   And so   we we fast forward to 2025,   I think. Right? Or or is it 2024?  

[01:05:42] Unknown:

That box of rain?   Yeah. Yeah. 102524,  

[01:05:46] Unknown:

Albany, New York. K. Yes. 102524,   Albany, New York.   Phil Esch dies.   This is the opener of their tour, I I believe.  

[01:05:56] Unknown:

Of the fall. Yeah.  

[01:05:57] Unknown:

And they they opened the show with box of rain.   It wasn't very it it wasn't very good.   That wasn't the point. Right? But it's not like they're sitting around playing box of rain and rehearsing it all the time.   Right? Yeah. So Yeah. You know, considering   all things considered. Right?  

[01:06:16] Unknown:

That was It was a it was a it was a tribute to Phil. Yeah.  

[01:06:21] Unknown:

I just wanna rehash   I just wanna rehash this timeline again, though, because you have   you have the dead are clearly a part of what Phish is doing, like, in the very, very, very beginning,   and then nothing. And then,   you know, Phish became legendary for covering   other bands.   And every single time they had a Halloween show to do,   the anticipation   always,   you know, always came.   Right?   American beauty   Mhmm. Right, or just, you know,   wake of the flood. There was always, like, a there was always this idea that in and I think Trey   and the band really thrived   off of this expectation and not delivering. And not delivering.  

Yeah. And it's really something I think that made it's something that makes fish fish is this one thing.   Right? Is this expectation of the dead and not delivering it  

[01:07:25] Unknown:

is part of the tension. Yeah. Tension. It's it's funny. You because we talk about tension and release in the context of the music and the especially the jamming all the time, but, they also did it psychologically   with the fans.  

[01:07:37] Unknown:

But I think it's part of their frame. And, you know, I think, again, in the context of heads and where they are chronologically,   that part of their frame is we're not the dead.   Yeah. We are I mean, then start you know, it's like, that's just part of the label. We're not the dead. And, you know, musically, they're nothing like the dead.   Like, nothing.  

[01:07:58] Unknown:

Nothing.   Nothing.   And you know what? I think   if they   if they identified at all or their frame was anything that, like, were an extension of the dead, then they would they would cease to be excellent.   You know what I mean? Like,   those two things are mutually exclusive, I think.  

[01:08:20] Unknown:

I mean, listen to an album like Rift and try to ask yourself, is this do you hear anything?   Like   like, the dad? I mean, it   you know what I mean? Not at all.   I think late I think the last decade has more   you know, the dad rock type songs have Oh my god. Alaska,  

[01:08:39] Unknown:

Ocelot.   I mean, those those tempos and bass lines, I mean, that's got Phil written all over it.   It there's those are the most deady set of songs that they've ever written, and that was right after they cut back together in 02/2009.  

[01:08:54] Unknown:

So yeah. I mean, like, anything that they sound that sounds like the dead is just a function of Phish having many different sounds. Yes.  

[01:09:01] Unknown:

Thousands  

[01:09:02] Unknown:

of songs. Enjoying a very wide variety of of music in their songbook.  

[01:09:06] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:09:07] Unknown:

But because even the bluegrass stuff was   high tempo. It was, like, never anything dead like.  

[01:09:15] Unknown:

Correct.   Yeah. I I when you said none of their stuff sounds like them, like, it went through the bluegrass and, like, no. That's they play they play they play straight up bluegrass. That's not dead and that's not the dead.  

[01:09:26] Unknown:

Yeah. Type I mean, I mean, you know, Jeffy kind of invented his own bluegrass standards in a certain way. You know, like Shady Grove and, like, songs like that. And, like, he invented it almost, like, had his own slow roll sound of  

[01:09:39] Unknown:

Yeah. And he kinda got he got influenced a lot by Grisham, right, where, like, Fish is Baylor.  

[01:09:43] Unknown:

Grisman.   Oh,   oh, David.  

[01:09:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Grisman. Sorry.  

[01:09:48] Unknown:

Yeah. The Grisman was yeah. So Grisman was Jerry's contemporary. He played mandolin   on a lot of his albums.   But it was more of a slow role.   Exactly. Right? Slow draw.   Mhmm.   Just while we're on the music, do you know are you familiar at all with David Gans?   Name doesn't ring a bell. Jesse if you're listening to this Jesse Jarno, I know you I I I know you're I know you're into David Gans because we used to talk about him a lot.   He was so David Gans was known as the guy who, like, had the vault. He had, like, the dead vault, and he ran the Grateful Dead Hour, the radio show.   And then, you know, after the bit after after '95, after Jerry died, you came to realize that David Gans was a pretty good musician in his own right. And,   maybe this is a good time to talk about the well.  

Do you know what the well was?  

[01:10:49] Unknown:

I know the song, the well,  

[01:10:51] Unknown:

by Fish. Yeah. No. And so the well was this,   it was, like, one of the first real Internet,   bulletin board sites.  

[01:10:59] Unknown:

Oh, cool. When it was, like, yeah, when it was all b b b b.  

[01:11:03] Unknown:

What are they called? Yeah.   BBS.  

[01:11:05] Unknown:

BBS. Yeah.  

[01:11:07] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like, you can get it was like, you know, like, you can get on the well, and then you can go into these groups. And a lot of tapes got traded on the well, and David Gans was David Gans' music was getting distributed   a good bid on the well. And he did a lot of dead covers, but he had his own originals. And   I don't know. I I really did just the style of bluegrass, the style of sort of, like, his style of music was,   really great. I just gotta shout him out, I think, just because he   he was such a big part of you know, we didn't talk about the tapes or anything like that. I mean, I I don't know if we I don't know if you want to.  

[01:11:38] Unknown:

Oh, I'm I'm open to talking.  

[01:11:40] Unknown:

I got time. You know, I mean, the dead innovated   tape trip you know, tape trip Oh, right.   Allowing tapers. Yep. That was a big part of it also. And, you know, Phish just kind of stood on their shoulders.   Phish stood on their shoulders, and then, you know, I don't know if people realize   that Phish   is at the it really was, like, the innovator of   having a digital copy of the show the next like, that  

[01:12:06] Unknown:

night. Mhmm.  

[01:12:07] Unknown:

And, I forgot this guy's I forgot the guy's name who runs NugsNet.   I've met him a few times.   He's from Philly.  

[01:12:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I know I know people that work for him. Yeah. He was a dead he was a big deadhead,  

[01:12:20] Unknown:

big deadhead.   Cool dude.   Has a great story of how the whole live fish thing got started.   You know? And he was just kind of broadcasting out of a van parked on Seventh Avenue outside of Madison Square Garden in the the New Year's two thousand two show.   Right?   But, and then Metallica showed up and said they wanted,   are you able to, you know, they wanted to the Metallica showed up, like, after it was, like, after all the Napster shit. Mhmm. They wanted to be able to they just wanted to be able to sell their shows.   So they funded they've basic Metallica funded the whole NugsNet  

[01:12:58] Unknown:

operation. Cool. I didn't know that was, like, where they got a lot of their profit. Yeah.  

[01:13:03] Unknown:

Yeah. And then it it you know, we benefited from that. Mhmm.   But it was you know, if you ask the question, who, you know,   who really started selling their shows, like, soundboard quality shows right after right after their shows is, you know   which was a big evolution,   a giant evolution after taping. People still tape fish shows, but that they're not   you know, it's like,   it's like you also see Little Caesars operating somewhere in the world. You don't really know why or who's gonna tell them that they're out of business.   They, you know, just love it again. That's a great analogy.  



[01:13:44] Unknown:

You're probably in a bad neighborhood.  

[01:13:47] Unknown:

For sure. Right? It's, like, next to also, like, a Popeye's that doesn't know they're out of business.  

[01:13:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know who I was chatting with the other day. I'm I was tracking my brain, but I was talking to somebody that had some recording experience at the dead, and they   I   they revealed to me. I did not realize that the dead also had taper tickets.   Yeah. No. That that I didn't know they invented that. Existed because of them. I didn't know that. I didn't know I thought fish I thought some in my own little bubble, I thought fish I thought fish invented that. I'm gonna go out on a limb, and I'm just gonna say fish would never have invented taper tickets. Okay.  

[01:14:27] Unknown:

You know? They stood on the shoulders of what the dead did Okay. On so many Makes sense. So many things. Makes sense. Frankly, because they were just trying to be the best music band. Right? And they, you know, they innovated things at   at shows, festivals, and   tape you know, releasing their music after it's done. But I don't know that they were gonna strong-arm a venue to   allow tapers.  

[01:14:49] Unknown:

And not in 1995   or whatever.   No. No. Or no. They were doing that, obviously, when the dev was still touring, but it's funny I mentioned that to my brother,   of, like, that they   when Jerry died,   the it was so clear and obvious to anybody close to the scene or in the scene of where that baton was going. Like, there was no argument   about it. It was just perfect. Fish had It's so true. Just done New Year's. They had at MSG, they had just   kind of really tipped the scales.  

[01:15:22] Unknown:

Do you know the day the day Jerry died, I had tickets   and went and saw,   it's really strange. Do you know what the Keswick Theatre is? Sure. Been there a bunch. Glens Glenside, PA. Glenside, PA. I saw Bela Fleck,   with Howard Levy.   Like, this was like a I didn't even realize what a big deal it was. I didn't know, Yoca. I knew Bela Fleck. I'd never seen him. Never seen a show. And he was opening for Joan Baez,   who was a very close friend to Jerry's.  

[01:15:54] Unknown:

Oh, okay.  

[01:15:56] Unknown:

And it was a wild   experience.   I mean, just before I mean, this whole thing with Bill Fleck and Howard Levy, like, that was, like,   for those of you who don't know, like, that was one of those it's like the police getting back together. Like, it was never gonna like like, it was never gonna be that lineup ever again. I don't know issues they had.   But,   Howard Levy is, like, the harmonica player that you know, who would think a harmonica player is so important? But if you listen to Vail Fleck, you kinda understand. Right? Yeah. That that sound is such a part of   Flecktones.  



[01:16:26] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:16:29] Unknown:

And,   just opening Joan Baez was telling all these stories   about Jerry,   and she was so it was all very raw. Right? Because it happened that day.  

[01:16:40] Unknown:

Oh,   man.  

[01:16:41] Unknown:

You know? It it was pretty incredible.   Yeah.   This so   the last thing I wanted to just make sure I hit. Mhmm.   Because this is a Bitcoin focused fish podcast   about the Grateful Dead today. Yeah.   Is,   I have one song that I think   carries the most signal for all of us,   and it's the song he's gone.   Yeah. I don't know if you have any songs in your head that you really think resonate   from the Grateful Dead songbook.   But   That's a big one. It's I think it should be obvious why that is. Now I was never   you know, I didn't really get introduced to that song until the day Jerry died, and that was the song they were playing.   And, you know, so   just for the listeners,   I'll probably use it as an opener. I was gonna use it as the outro, but it's gotta be Terrapin.  

Yeah. For the listeners, you know, the song he's gone is a very slow.   It's like the kind of song you would hear as bales of hay roll by very slowly.   And,   and it's I mean, I think it's really about   some scumbag who leaves his whole family. I really think it's like it's the song is like you know? You have these these lyrics, like, you know, like a steel locomotive rolling down the track. He's gone. He's gone, and nothing's gonna bring him back. Yep. But then when Jerry died,   they like, even though   whatever the song was about, everyone made it about Jerry. Yep. And nothing's gonna bring him back. And the reason why I think the song has so much signal   is not just it's not just because of this. There's an additional thing here where,   the great the the Grateful Dead's logo is called the steal your face logo.  

Mhmm. And this is the song that has the lyric that refers to steal your face, and it says, like like like I told you what I said, he'll steal your face right off your head. Like, in a song, they're telling you what a thief and a scumbag this guy is.   But that's the logo that's that that skeleton logo that you would identify with the Grateful Dead, it's called steal your face. Yep. And it's from the song. So, like, the song is carrying the song has the logo,   and it's the theme song of Jerry's death.  

[01:19:09] Unknown:

Perfect.  

[01:19:10] Unknown:

But it also signifies   Satoshi Nakamoto.   Yes. Project. So, like right. I mean, so now, you know, like, to me The American conception.   Yeah. It it all comes together, like you know? And and I think, like,   it would have been useful   for people at the time   to have been part of this scene and be affected by Jerry's death   and be able to reference in their mind he's gone when Satoshi left, especially when   especially when the impostor started coming back.   Mhmm. Right? Like, he's gone. Nothing's gonna bring him back. Okay?   Right?  



[01:19:52] Unknown:

It's perfect.  

[01:19:55] Unknown:

Yeah. And, you know, like, also, there's this like,   we talked about how people disappeared at La Shrug style to tour the dead. And, you know, it's just like   I don't know. There's something about life where   we can we bounce.   You know? We just bounce. Yeah.  

[01:20:16] Unknown:

From a scene or from a chapter of your life? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:20:21] Unknown:

Like your job? That's just something yeah. Something that's core to Bitcoiners. Right? It's like, you know,   we're all gonna be gone from the thing we're doing,   perhaps.   Perhaps. Right? We all have to we always have to graduate. And we all like, we may you know,   we have to disappear. We have to maybe kill our,   kill the Anakin Skywalkers inside of us that are Yeah. That are weak, that are not ready for the the big fight we're   up for. Right? We all have to slay the here you know,  

[01:20:53] Unknown:

the weak versions of ourselves, something like that. Yeah. And I think Bitcoin, once it clicks for you, is is, brings a call to action   in that sense.  

[01:21:06] Unknown:

Does. I really wanna now close with he's gone, and I don't know what to do now.  

[01:21:14] Unknown:

Now.   Bitch,   I  

[01:27:23] Unknown:

know  

[01:27:25] Unknown:

you.   I   got   told   what I say.