Back on the Chain

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In this episode, we dive into the nostalgic and intricate world of Phish, focusing on the song "Chalk Dust Torture." We explore the song's lyrics, which seemingly blend nonsensical phrases with profound insights, touching on themes of education, youthful rebellion, and the struggle to find meaning amidst chaos. The hosts reflect on their personal connections to the song, drawing parallels between its themes and their own experiences with the educational system and the discovery of Bitcoin. The discussion also highlights the song's evolution as a jam vehicle, particularly its unexpected transformation during the legendary Camden '99 show.

We also reminisce about the year 1994, a pivotal time for both the band and the hosts, marked by memorable concerts and personal growth. The conversation meanders through various anecdotes, including the influence of video games like NHL '94 and the cultural impact of Phish's music. As the hosts dissect the lyrics, they uncover layers of meaning that resonate with the broader themes of change, growth, and the quest for understanding in a complex world. This episode is a testament to the enduring magic of Phish and the timeless relevance of their music.

Chalkdust Torture: Riviera Maya 2/23/24
https://youtu.be/LX3B_K5ANs4?feature=shared

Chalkdust Torture: Camden, NJ 7/10/99
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xZMHQjRTSM

Fundamentals
X: @Fundamentals21m
nostr: npub12eml5kmtrjmdt0h8shgg32gye5yqsf2jha6a70jrqt82q9d960sspky99g
Jason
nostr: npub19l2muzvelq07kfx8glfqmpf8jdcj2xp733rhjfc05t2g2mt9krjqrae40w

[00:00:43] Unknown:

Let's see. Looks like we're up and running   and and perfect. We're like in fish fashion now. We, like, we had a ticket time of 08:30, but we started  

[00:00:52] Unknown:

15 to twelve late. Twelve minutes later. Exactly.  

[00:00:56] Unknown:

We're real this is a Sunday night. Never miss a Sunday show.   I'm really happy to be back.   Did we take a week off? We unfortunately,  

[00:01:06] Unknown:

it was involuntary, but we ended up taking a week off. Yeah.  

[00:01:09] Unknown:

So   we are following the ninety four tour when Trey did break his leg, and I did look that up.   And, you know, last weekend, I was on Penn State's campus.   I was out there visiting my daughter, and I drove by I drove by Rec Hall, which is the site of my second show.   Nice. And it's so   funny, man, how all the memories come back.   I was like, where did we park our car? Where were we? Like, we were, like, running into Yeah. We were, like, literally running across the campus into the building.   That's awesome. I'm sure things have changed, and it didn't look like that.   It was still quite nice.  

But,   I just love I don't know. I think a lot about just 1994.   It's like a time no one will ever get back again.   Yeah.   And so, you know, being on   I think of the shows I went to in 1994,   it was Rec Hall.   It was, The Man, which is I think that's the only venue still there.   Mhmm.   I went to the Garden State Arts Center.  

[00:02:12] Unknown:

Okay. Yeah.  

[00:02:14] Unknown:

That's a story at some point in time. We, it was, like, my first time.   We went to the man on July 1, and then we decided we had to go where we we had to find out where they were gonna be the next night, and that happened to be the Garden State Art Center. And we're like, alright. We're going.  

[00:02:30] Unknown:

And,  

[00:02:31] Unknown:

yeah. So then that   I guess what is it? PNC Center? It's not some Yeah. Holmes change hands. I'm not too Yeah. PNC Art Center. Yeah. That's where I grew up, by the way.  

[00:02:42] Unknown:

Oh, okay. You you're a Jersey kid. I am. My dad worked And so am I.  

[00:02:47] Unknown:

Yeah. He worked for Bell Labs in in Home Depot. Oh, yeah. That was, like, that was was that headquarters, or it was a major hub? It was a major hub. Like Bell Atlantic.   I I don't know if it was, like, Basking Ridge, New Jersey.   And it's funny because, you know, like Tom Marshall worked for AT and T. A lot of the guys a lot of the lyrics got written on a public email that they would share around with each other,   at   work. I worked for AT and T in   those buildings too when I graduated college.   There's a reason for that. I   was exiled from Philadelphia.  

True story. I was blackballed   from working in Philadelphia.  

[00:03:28] Unknown:

What?  

[00:03:29] Unknown:

I was, and I was, like, I was the top student in my class. I have I have a trophy literally.   It's yeah. I won the award, and,   it's a long fucking story.  

[00:03:41] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:03:41] Unknown:

Long story. But only,   like like, I   am   I am the kind of guy who will get blackballed   and have to leave   and have to leave his hometown to go back to,   to go somewhere else to work. Yeah, to start over.   Yeah. I'm writing about all this in a memoir.   I've been writing about it for years now.   So Gordon State Art Center was cool because I went home. I   stayed with a friend who lived   in the town I grew up in.   And then   the Philadelphia Civic Center, twelvetwenty eightninety   four was the other show I went to when that's gone. That was, that was like the indoor stadium on University of Pennsylvania's campus.  

[00:04:28] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:04:31] Unknown:

Not the Palestra,   which is known for basketball.   That's still there.   But the Civic Center is where, like, UPenn had its graduations.   And, twenty eighth, man, it's a great show. So I don't know. I just I love   I love thinking about 1994.   I love that year.   My favorite   video game of all time is NHL '94.  

[00:04:56] Unknown:

Okay. I remember.  

[00:04:57] Unknown:

You remember, right? And I was   on the Canadian Bitcoin podcast last year, almost   almost a year ago at this time, talking to Len   who started the NHL '94 podcast, and he has, like,   started all this NHL '94 activity. And I went to Sega and started replaying it, and it really took me back. I mean, what a what a great thing. You know what's interesting about I I tried to tell this to Len on the podcast. He wasn't having any of it. He couldn't give a shit. But, like,   when they were making that video game, this is so a field.   But   you know what? I I started a fish based Bitcoin podcast to tell the story.  

NHL 94 is probably the most special video game that's ever been made. And the fact that people are still playing it today and, like, they're still playing it seriously I had no idea. I had no idea, but it makes sense. I played the game.   So So there's documentaries about, there are documentaries about the game. And one of the documentaries I saw, the guy that created the game, his name is Mark Lesser,   or the guy who programmed it.   He   is interviewed, and he literally says,   we did we,   the whole coding team was up in Maine.   K?  

So they're up in Maine. So they're geographically pretty close to Yes. To   the motherland here.   He says   literally that the University of Maine   had a run to   the NHL, they're like the Frozen Four and the National Championship.   He thinks   that the energy that was created   by the University of Maine   contributed   somehow cosmically to the   legendary   magic of NHL ninety four, the game.   I'm   thinking,   I think maybe that's   possibly correct   and   possibly incomplete.   Mhmm.   I am saying that I think maybe there's other energy   that was going on maybe up in that area. And,   what   I was trying to figure out. I don't know if there were any real shows up there   from that time. You have four four,   which is the opener of that spring tour at the Flynn Theater where they debuted all of the Hoist songs.  



[00:07:23] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:07:25] Unknown:

And   there might have been something from Bangor, I wanna say, in the fall. Okay. If I knew I was gonna tell the story, I would have looked that I would have looked this up. I know. You're fine. Now,   it was '90 it was really '93   that they wrote the game   for whatever it's worth. Yeah. But,   you know,   there's,   like, there's magic energy   going up in the Northeast. And it's not the Northeast Kingdom, but it's like   it's up there. This guy is basically up in Portland, Maine writing this video game with his team, thinking he's getting all his energy from   For all we know,   the hockey team was powered by fish. Yeah. %.  

Change of things have happened. Yeah. You know, I'm not here to say fish is some kind of magical power. I'm here to say that Mark Lesser thinks there was a magical power   driving the game.  

[00:08:17] Unknown:

If he felt it open that there. If he felt it, then, you know,   he's the, best suited to, make a make an assessment. So  

[00:08:26] Unknown:

yeah.   Regardless, I love that year. I love thinking about it.   Somewhere down here, I have in my notebook, I have   I I just I have it down here because I wrote a list of things that I that were awesome about 1994.   I wrote it from for that podcast episode.   And,   that I would I wish I had it.  

[00:08:47] Unknown:

Well, it's so I'm finding it so funny that, like,   it's clear it's clear to at least to me that and probably to the audience that   if you were to pick, like, you know,   peak year of   fundamentals, it'd be 1994,   which is, you know, arguably   Yes. Arguably when you got into fish because you got into fish on New Year's Eve.  

[00:09:08] Unknown:

Correct. And so, like, technically, my first show was   in 1994   as well.  

[00:09:14] Unknown:

Mhmm. And and it it changed my life. Right. And and and just from my perspective, my first show was in the middle of 1999,   and I would without a without a doubt,   say, 1999 was peak   Jason   from   a lot a lot of different viewpoints.  

[00:09:34] Unknown:

Now I was saying came together.   I mean, aside from 2025   fundamentals, which I actually think is better. Way better. Fair enough. I do way more podcasts than I did  

[00:09:45] Unknown:

in in 1999. Yeah, from a point of nostalgia, let me be clear. Yeah, obviously our lives are we're flourishing now too. Yeah, we didn't peak, although, like, that was a local  

[00:09:54] Unknown:

massive peak.   I mean, I really went from being very struggling   to like really, really struggling and not, you know, like I homeschooled myself and I struggled through I had three semesters of college now that were really kicking   my butt because I was taking   calculus   and linear algebra that was destroying me.   And then something happened in that fish show and I know what it was.   I know exactly what it was. I was in the Holiday Inn in Worcester   and   we brought this like 30 feet long easy wider like roll and we were rolling.   We were on like these two three feet long swag   joints.  

Yeah. I was running around with one outside my hotel room, and in the hotel room next to me   where two kids I knew from middle school.   This kid,   Matt Katz and John Posky.   And,   you know, in middle school, man,   I was, like, just totally lost.   You know, I was like a total like, real, like, nerd. Didn't couldn't figure out, like, oh, like, I wanted to be good at baseball, but I sucked at it.   You know, it's okay basketball.   This is how we judge every it's how we kinda judge everything. Right? And these guys were, you know, they kinda had their shit together. And when I saw them, like, they were both, like, going to Harvard.   I was like, what? Are you fucking kidding me? Like,   I'm better than both these kids. I actually I liked them and I respected them, and I was, like, happy to see them. But then I thought I just had this deep sense of, like, man, I am failing pretty badly if these guys got into Harvard. Are you kidding me? Right. It looks like constructive comparison. Yeah. It was just it wasn't, like, negative. It was more like just seeing for myself what I should   you know, I should be I should be aspiring better than I was. That was, like, kinda like   aspiring to be very mediocre and didn't know why I was struggling. And then something like, between meeting them and just the whole weekend, something clicked and I just started kicking ass when I came back. Five straight semesters of, like,   pretty close to four point o. Like, it all just clicked.  

Yeah. And then won the award for, like, the best student, and then I got to get blackballed. And then couldn't work in Philadelphia.   But, like so then I was on another I was on another struggle really quickly, but it was a struggle of a better of a better person and a person  

[00:12:29] Unknown:

kicking ass. Yeah. You had leveled up. And then you were facing the nest boss, the next boss.  

[00:12:34] Unknown:

That's right. That's right. And so that first fish show was really special. And then I, you you know, I bet you people listening to this who've never been to a show   are definitely curious if Yeah. They could level their life up by going to a fish show. I don't know the answer to that question. There's only one way to find out. Yes.  

[00:12:50] Unknown:

And I know we fantasized about or, pontificated   before we even started the show. Like, wow. It would be great to be, like, you   know, you know, analyze fish and, like, get a crew together and we'll all go to a show and,   you know, embark on their journey.  

[00:13:05] Unknown:

I mean, our meetup has   our meetup our local meetup has  

[00:13:10] Unknown:

several people that want to go to a show this summer. We should make that happen. Yeah. Yeah. The man the man is would be optimal. You know? Weekday shows, not too much rage,   you know, in general.  

[00:13:23] Unknown:

Somebody just needs to find a way to get me a ticket.  

[00:13:27] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:13:29] Unknown:

I know that the time value thing is still It's so bad. Like, I'm still so bad at it. You know, the last, like, several times I went to the mat, I was like, I had to find it. I needed somebody on that day to, like, get me a ticket. Yeah. Well, cash or trade is pretty is pretty magical. You know, day of trade, I've  

[00:13:46] Unknown:

I've I've met so many people. I mean, other than, like, obvious sellouts like Halloween or the the, you know, the sphere. Until rev huddle until rev huddle is managing cash or trade, it's never it's never gonna be good for me. Well,   that is the, that's our that's our final boss as it relates to fish would be to, somehow disrupt   disrupt the ticket market.  

[00:14:09] Unknown:

The goal of this podcast is rev huddle   for you to end up taking over cash or trade.   I know he listens to this.   He's like, alright. What the hell is that? Yeah. Yeah. Shout out rev huddle.  

[00:14:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Shout out Cash or Trade too.   Yeah. Yeah. At least it exists. At least it exists.  

[00:14:30] Unknown:

It's like I've tried many, many times. I've tried I've I've never successfully gotten a ticket through Cash or Trade,   and I've tried.   Okay. It it's always just comes down to some friend that just comes through for me in the last second. Yeah. That's a yes. It's like finding a job.  

[00:14:47] Unknown:

But,   that's so interesting. You know? Like, yeah, that that that marked the, you know, turning point for me as well. And,   I sent you, I sent you some 99.  

[00:14:57] Unknown:

I'm trying to imagine because you and I are the same age. Right? So 99, man, we were we were   in our mid twenties already.  

[00:15:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I was, I was 22.   I think you're a couple years old. A little young. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:15:11] Unknown:

Such a youngin'.  

[00:15:12] Unknown:

I know.   50. And I'm I just call myself 50 just like you do.   But, I'm I'm up. I'm looking I'm looking well, because I Nobody looks at that. I've looked young my whole life, and I I at one point, everyone's like, oh, you you look you look so young. And then one time, I was like, you know what? Like You do.   Looking   young, for   women unable to grow hair on your face. You have that young that young look. You're Yeah. And for women, you know, women always be like, oh, you're so lucky you look young. And I was like, you know, I get to, like, my mid twenties. I'm like, I think this is a shit coin.   Like, so I Google, like, what are the advantages of looking young for men? And there's none. There's not one. There's none. You can work a little bit longer. You can work you can work into your sixties and seventies more easily than others. That's the only advantage. Dude, when I worked in, like, investments,  

[00:16:02] Unknown:

there's a term for somebody who you want on your team, who you need on your team.  

[00:16:07] Unknown:

The gray beards? The gray hair. Yeah. Mhmm.  

[00:16:10] Unknown:

And, like In Bitcoin, we call them gray beards. Right? The There are people who I I've made fun of that I suspect to dye their hair gray.  

[00:16:20] Unknown:

Well, Charles Hodgkinson tries to make himself look older. Right?   Whatever the fuck his name is.  

[00:16:26] Unknown:

Is that   is that the,   like, the CEO of fucking  

[00:16:31] Unknown:

Cardano. Or whatever one of those. Yeah. I've heard that from, like, John Seth. You've who unfortunately knows him.  

[00:16:39] Unknown:

I see. Well, so, you know, look Nothing nice to say.   We should introduce you gotta we have to introduce Joseph to the year 1994.   Yes, we do. I need more people to understand the magic   of this year. And you know, one of these days so we were talking about how we were going to discuss chalk dust today, chalk dust torch,   which had a very special moment in 1994, but we've discussed it on the show already, so we're not going to go through it.   It was their, appearance on Letterman December thirtieth   before really the biggest show of their life, which was their first time debuting in Madison Square Garden. Yep.   So it had a great moment. 1994 is a great version.  

But, you know, it's what's interest   we were talk I was thinking is Chuck Vest on an album? And I think it is. I think it's on Picture and Nectar, but I'm not entirely sure. It's it's it's the first track on Picture and Nectar.   Really? First track. First track. First track. And I didn't   that's a Picture and Nectar is not   one of my, like, top albums.   You know, I just   I have I I don't think it was I don't even know if I would say   if I could name 10 songs on it. You know, I know, like, Stash is on it. Mhmm.   I I could go through the stupid exercise now, but, like, it's not I don't it never really. Is Llama? Is that on Picture Nectar or is it not even on an album? Oh, if it you know, if Llama is on it, then that's the first track. I thought Llama was on, May was on,  

[00:18:09] Unknown:

was on Maze.  

[00:18:10] Unknown:

No. You mean Rift?  

[00:18:12] Unknown:

I mean I mean Rift. Sorry. That's what I meant. So one of the, things I wanna do on the podcast here The the the Maze is on on is on the album art,  

[00:18:20] Unknown:

in my defense. I really like what we did with Joy.   It's like, okay, we should it was a little bit of extra work for us, but I think it was worth it. It was worth it, and I think it would be good to do   a couple of albums, not every single one. We're not gonna go Walter Ruski now where we have, like, fifty   fifty reaction videos for every app for like, he's doing, like, live fish releases.  

[00:18:47] Unknown:

I just saw him do the undermine. I saw a notification. I just like Yeah. I see. That was a couple days ago. Yeah. It's like if he could bring joy and spirit to undermine,  

[00:18:58] Unknown:

I would imagine it would just crushes him or you know? But, I was watching him do it's interesting to see him do,   to continue   because he's now so much more knowledgeable   where he thinks he is.   Right?   He thinks he is. That's right. To see him thinking he's, like, hip to fish, and he understands what's going on and,   that he's still like, wait a second. I don't know. Then, like, you know He's just giving himself a drumstick. Trey Trey pulls up a drumstick and he's like, what is going on now? You know?   We love Walter Ruski on this chat on on this, on this podcast, though. So, but we're not gonna be like Walter Ruski and do, like, every album, every live. You know? We're not, like, hunting for content here.   I just think it would be good to have some   album coverage,   especially,   Rift.  



[00:19:51] Unknown:

Rift? Yeah. It's pretty much I know I know it's here in my top slot, right, album wise? Well, it's the one that I thought probably the most about  

[00:20:00] Unknown:

for my lyrical   connection   to to this world.  

[00:20:05] Unknown:

Yeah.   And you are right, it's lama. It's lama.   Chuck Dust is toward is towards the end of the album. Yeah. Okay.  

[00:20:13] Unknown:

I actually my only reference on Picture of Nectar is Walter Ruski's reaction video that I that was one of the first ones I saw.   And the album version of Chuck Dust Torture is kind of not that great. Yeah. It's short. But you know what?   Chuck Dust Torture, we're gonna talk about this song.   It's not about creatine, for fuck's sake.   Okay. It's a different white powder. Not even getting into it. Not even even getting into it, but it has no I'm relatively certain it has nothing to do with creatine.   K?   Even though it'll maybe, you   know, people might think chalk dust is, like, signaling creatine.  

Right. Right. I don't think so.   But the most legendary versions of chalk dust torture have all happened in one place,   which is the disgusting swamps of Camden, New Jersey.  

[00:21:06] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:21:07] Unknown:

And there's gotta be some signal there. There has to be   there's something to it.   Right?   Something to it. So you had 99,   and you had,   that that '99 version. You had the 2010 version  

[00:21:23] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:21:24] Unknown:

That,  

[00:21:26] Unknown:

you know that,   was that was that during the Halloween run?  

[00:21:31] Unknown:

No. No. The 2010 version What was the 2010 version? Summer. It was the day LeBron James made the announcement, and it rained like fucking hell. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Just the shit you remember driving through a monsoon   to get to Camden.   Yeah. So it's weird that   Chuckdust Torture has had its best moments probably.   But you know so you know what I'm gonna mention once before we get into it? Chuckdust Torture is my   absolute all time favorite reprise.  

[00:22:04] Unknown:

Yes. It's a very unusual reprise. I didn't Yes. I only heard of it   legendarily,   like, from other people  

[00:22:11] Unknown:

until Mexico, not this past year, but the year prior. Because they redid it. They to my knowledge, they had only done it one time, and it was the   12/10   guess what year? 12/1094   tour closer.   Mhmm. Great. Like, one of the all time great tours,   I think Phish fans on Helping Friendly Podcast rated it number two tour of all time or not number three.  

[00:22:36] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:22:38] Unknown:

Number three all time tour,   fall ninety four,   closes   with Chalk Dust Reprise, which   is basically   and it's like Trey's way of thanking the crew.   I love when he I love when he does stuff like that. I love when he just, like, you   know, almost   hijacks   the entire sound of   you know, he's like, okay. This song is now gonna be adapted so we can thank everybody.   Right. Right. Right. Because he loves to do that.   But at least that's you know, he he did a lot of that back in the day. I remember the 05/08/1993   show, which was a   that was a legendary show, and the tapes got out.  

Mhmm. This tape sounded amazing.   And that was a tour that was a big tour closure. Like, they were on tour they were on tour for   forever. Yeah. When they were playing, like, every night. And I can't remember what song it was that he   hijacked to basically thank everybody, the whole crew and everything.  

[00:23:43] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm I'm in the history right now. They're talking about that show. They played the song twice, twelve ten ninety four, returning to the song at the start of the encore while they introduced the crew.   Such a great They speak to it in as in the context of it is still Choctaw's Torch. You know I'm closing this episode with Choctaw's Reprise.  

[00:24:02] Unknown:

Yeah. That version.   And then they redid it recently.   It was like a shock.   They redid it recently, and it slips my brain when it happened. But it was sometime in the last couple of years.   It just popped up again.  

[00:24:22] Unknown:

And and I don't know when they played other than Mexico. We need a producer. Do you have a handle on that? I mean, I can play producer. Oh, was it Mexico? I think it was in Mexico. Well, they   did it in yeah. In Mexico Twenty Three. Yeah. Okay. That was it. Yeah. That was the one. Yeah. Yeah. So they brought it back, and it's just like chalk does torture, and then they just play Totally. Some some some basic riff, and it's that's it. And it's because they played a forty minute torture the night before.  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like,   for the for the Bitcoiners at home, the the Fish is known to like, the one song that goes into, like   the most reliable jam vehicle they have is called Tweezer. And Mhmm.   Almost always, if they play it,   they'll usually at the encore,   the last song they'll play is something called Tweezer Reprise, and it's a really, like, great last song to play. It's a really great way to close the show. That's how I ended my wedding, by the way. Is that right? That's true. That's how I walk with the Tweezer reprise.   Now, there are some legendary moments of Fish. One of my favorite moments of Fish ever and I don't remember when this happened, but it was a New Year's run where they played Tweezer and forgot to play Tweezer reprise. They forgot to play a reprise, right. And they played Tweezer, I think, the first night of the run, which is historically Yeah. They closed the run with the with the reprise.  

Well, they they opened the following show with Tweezer Reprise.  

[00:25:41] Unknown:

They played it the first song the following year. I remember that. And there was one instance where they played Tweezer, like, three times in a it was, like, three times in a row. Like, they they made a joke about it. It might have been what you're talking about, where they made a mistake, and then they just played Tweezer like like   like like they played it as an encore, and then they played it they played Tweezer reprise again.  

[00:26:01] Unknown:

Yes. Which is this is how they are. This is just how they are.   You know?   So They made up for it. Yeah. That was the only re that was the only known reprise.   Right?   And then until 1994,   December tenth, because one time,   it it it just becomes Choctaw's reprise.  

[00:26:21] Unknown:

Right.  

[00:26:23] Unknown:

And that's it. It's never done again until   until,   2023.  

[00:26:28] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:26:31] Unknown:

So Chalk Dust has is in the it's just, like, sneaked its way in as a reprise,   And it's one of those songs   that is,   like, for all of, like, the   for all of the brilliant composition that Trey does, this song is literally just e to a.   It's literally the simplest,   least impressive   piece of songwriting   musically.   I think that you know what I mean? It's so simple and straight away.   Mhmm.   Before I saw yep. You got the song that's really simple.   Right? And   there's a certain   group of songs of fish that have nonsensical lyrics. This has gotta be at the top of the fucking list.   And I when I when you told me a couple of weeks ago you wanted to talk about the song, I was started thinking, man, I think Jason's just losing his shit.  

But then I started thinking about I I went back to the song, and I was like, oh my god. This song is loaded.  

[00:27:35] Unknown:

Loaded. Yes. Yes.  

[00:27:37] Unknown:

And I mean, it's from from from from from being a slave to, like, not understanding the education system to all kinds of stuff.  

[00:27:45] Unknown:

But also, it's loaded I mean, it's coded in nonsense. And this is I I started thinking of this,   maybe this year. Like, I've been writing about this and wanting to talk about it for a couple of years, but only recently have I appreciated the fact that the nonsense   is actually   how you hide   ciphertext in plain sight. Right. Right. Okay. Right? And so   it's it's,   like, quoted in total nonsense.  

[00:28:15] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:28:16] Unknown:

You know, beautiful. It's it's it's, like, literally of all of, like, the silly lyrics that Fish has. This is, like, at the top of top of the charts of absurdity.  

[00:28:26] Unknown:

And before we get into the lyrics, if you allow me to Yeah. I wanna I wanna explain a little bit, at least for the audience's sake, why I why I messaged you about about this song. Because it was on the heels of Bathtub Gin, which, again, wasn't really planned. Right? You went to Metzgeim. It just sort of managed. Totally. I never thought of that as one of the songs either until I started thinking about it. So that that got me thinking, like, is there more is there more to this? Like, let's, like, not just look for the obscure stuff. Like, what about the bangers? Like, is there anything there? And, you know, I reversed when I tried. And and   the reason why I chose Chalk Dust is because from a introduction to Phish standpoint,   it's probably the most important song for me. And, obviously, it's it's just a it's just a mainstay of of awesome jamming, you know, since I've been into the band and, obviously, continues into, like, this Mexico run.  

Yeah. But,   I'm at my first fish show, which I explained on the first episode, my experience getting into fish. I was in Atlanta, Georgia, Lakewood Amphitheater,   July Third And Fourth.   Legendaries.   Those two shows are unbelievable.   Like, the fact that I was   like, the ghost and and slave from the following night, the little drummer boy on the third of Fishman, like, you know, Christmas in July type of thing. It was just wild. I'm not a '99.   I just thought it was like, yeah. This is fish. I I had no reference point.  

[00:29:43] Unknown:

Yeah. '99,   it's not because I didn't   it's still unexplored for me, I'll just say, because that year in my life was the fur like,   that was the furthest away from fish I was Okay. That year.   I started to, like,   have a life.  

[00:30:00] Unknown:

Right. Right. You know, their attention elsewhere. Yeah.  

[00:30:04] Unknown:

Yeah. So so for me, I'm not but but yet those shows are, like, tattooed on my head   inside my brain. You know? Like, those shows are and then, you know, you have the Camden show that   I didn't go to, but it's, you know, freaking   legendary, and the Chalk Dust was incredible. Yeah. Yep.  

[00:30:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. So I had my toss-up as far as, like, Chalk Dust to play out. And what I wanna do we can play out whatever you'd like, but what I would like to do   is play that is is link in our show notes, the the YouTube, the video, because there's   modern Phish is and the video quality is so good. The audio quality is so good. It's all freely available. From the Mexico show? Yeah. From the Mexico.   I'm pretty sure that's online Phish. Like, they released that. Right? Yeah. That's on no. That's on their YouTube channel under the Phish Yeah. Brand moniker. Like, it totally   released.  



[00:30:56] Unknown:

Yes. And,  

[00:30:59] Unknown:

but yeah. So going going into my first show, I told you I had I was roommates with a guy who basically drugged me to the show, and I was genuinely interested.  

[00:31:07] Unknown:

Dragged you to the show? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. He drugged you to the show. That would be He he drugged me and then dragged me. I wasn't being an actually guy. I was, like, really trying to understand, did he drug you to get you to go to the show? It it was poor grammar.  

[00:31:21] Unknown:

No. It was  

[00:31:23] Unknown:

like, that's kind of a big one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was drugged and dragged.   That just sounds like a fish lyric. It really does.  

[00:31:34] Unknown:

And we're sitting there, and the band's coming on stage,   and   my buddy turns to another there's, like, four of us together. Turns to his friend, he's like, I think they're gonna open with chalk dust.   And then, like, thirty seconds later, they start playing chalk dust. And I'm just like, okay. So this is, like, you know, some band that I know, they mix up they they mix up songs every night. No. And but this is my first experience, and I'm just like Dude, there is nothing like calling an opener   Uh-huh. Like, right before it happens. Mhmm. That's an incredible, incredible And I remember being I was amazed. I was like, how did you do that? Is this magic? And he's like, I just I just felt like that's what I just could it's what it felt like. And I was like, this is nonsense. We've wasted so much spiritual energy and talent  

[00:32:16] Unknown:

calling calling songs. You know what I mean? Yeah. We really this is why we're here doing this podcast. We're trying We're, like, desperately trying to get fish fans that have this power   to come over to Bitcoin and help us. Help us figure out how to live our life. Come on. Well, I  

[00:32:31] Unknown:

can I can cut to the chase for everybody listening? The encore is Bitcoin.   That's the encore.  

[00:32:39] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:32:41] Unknown:

I gotta pull the show up. What was the encore? What was the encore? No. No. Yeah. Yeah. So, the encore of of that of the first night was, John little drummer boy into   who do I have to pull it?  

[00:32:52] Unknown:

Not good at this. I mean, the encore of, like, our lives is Bitcoin.  

[00:32:56] Unknown:

That's what I mean.  

[00:32:58] Unknown:

Yeah.   Like, once we're done   doing what we plan to do,   it's, you know, it's like a at least that's two 50 year old guys talking. You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's two fifty year olds talking.  

[00:33:13] Unknown:

But, yeah, let me pull up the set list real quick   because   I really just wanted to to mention that call and me just being like  

[00:33:23] Unknown:

It's kinda yeah. It's just that putting me in a mind space. Like, it it created a magical kind of I don't know. Anything was possible from that point of view. What is the sorcery? I mean, are these people really tapped in? Exactly. They had tapped in. I mean, because, like,   sometimes you do hear a note   and you're like, oh, I hear taste and then, you know, they play, like, another five minutes of the song we're in, and then the next thing you know, it's taste. And Right. Right. And everyone around you was like, how'd you do that? Yeah. It was like, I heard I heard that I heard them call, yeah, like, phrase it or something like that. Yeah. But an opener is an entirely different  

[00:33:57] Unknown:

beast. Yes. There's nothing to draw from other than that. Clues. Yeah. Energy. So the encore that night was little drummer boy, and then I forgot another special treat for a first timer.   Paige's dad comes on stage and sings Bill Bailey, won't you please come home.  

[00:34:14] Unknown:

It's crazy. Which is The only time that he ever played that. The the inventor of Tylenol.  

[00:34:19] Unknown:

Yeah. He's a he's a MD. Right? Fun fact.  

[00:34:22] Unknown:

Fun fact, he invented Tylenol because his mom got   headaches   that she couldn't   that   Bayer and whatever, aspirin   just didn't do anything for.   Tylenol   is responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. Let's be real about this. Yes. Liver problems.   It is,  

[00:34:43] Unknown:

Tylenol is bad. It's toxic. Yeah.  

[00:34:47] Unknown:

It's probably what funded FISH. It's probably what got them off the ground. Like, FISH is a pharmaceutical   nightmare.   Origin story. Okay?   Let's just I just need to get that off my chest. I know that. I I I listen. I   I believe that The worst the worst of the worst. So, like, Trey's dad was worked for ETS, which is educational testing service. So, like, they make the SATs and all that. Like   so, like,   between Trey's dad and Paige's dad,   they made a lot of money from   two of the most   horrific institutions   you can imagine.   Most people now are like, they don't want most people listening to this show don't share my views on this. So   Mhmm. Alright. Whatever.  

But,   yeah, man. It's like it's messed it's it's kinda fucked up, but it's still cool   that Paige is dead, goes on stage.  

[00:35:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at least in ninety nine nineteen ninety nine And they are a drug band. They are.   Depends on which how you look at it. But yes.   Yeah. Acetaminophen.   Don't do it.   Yeah.   Stay away from the NSAIDs other than aspirin.   But, yeah, then they have, they have here on fish.net. The they had a second encore, which was Harry Hood. So that's how that show ended. It's great. And they debuted mount   they debuted Mountains in the Mist that night.  

[00:36:15] Unknown:

Mountains in the Mist? And so Mountains in the Mist contain the lyrics   that,   to me, are the inspiration for this whole thing,   which are,   woven in the fairy tales   we tell ourselves each day, our little golden strands of truth that echo in the light.   The colorful material you hold a certain way will keep us from the cold and help to get us through the night.   Okay. So, like, in case you guys think that, like, I really do believe 100%   that this is   really, you know, that Fish really is inspired by the forces that created Bitcoin and Cypherpunks.   I think this is more of a story   that I think needs telling.  

And   I don't not believe it.   And I think this story is like, I think the people who listen to this podcast   are going to have we need all the stories we can get   to make it.   Making it in the world we're trying to make it in is not given.   So, you know, this is like a Bitcoin based fish podcast   is unique because   the people who make it and the people who listen to it aren't necessarily gonna make it.   Mhmm. It's, like, the key difference.   You know?   Whereas a non Bitcoin based fish podcast is everyone thinks they've already made it. Everyone thinks they've won in life.  

[00:37:40] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:37:41] Unknown:

But we do not,   and we need these stories.   Yeah. Well, what I've really mountains in the mist   said it best.  

[00:37:50] Unknown:

No. That those lyrics are so poignant. And Trump does torture probably said it the worst, but we're gonna get into it. And we'll get into that in a second. But I do wanna say, I mean, on the heels of what you just said is that,   we're on episode 11 of this podcast. What  

[00:38:05] Unknown:

We are?  

[00:38:06] Unknown:

Yeah. This is 11.   Oh, shit. Okay. So I think we talked about 13 doing a baker's dozen. Yes. And we and we may I think we we can, at the end end of this episode, maybe talk about that and let the audience know what our what our plans are because I do like the,   the focused   effort. Like, focus on some material and then, like, really dig into it. We can prep for it like we have for the Joy album   episode, which I thought was well received. I enjoyed it anyway.   But this idea of, like   you always hear Bitcoiners talk about, like, oh, well, you know, there's my life before Bitcoin and there's my life after Bitcoin, and it sounds pretty, like, tropey and pithy.   But it's Kinda get it. What they're what they're trying to what they're trying to convey is that   Bitcoin forces you to kinda reevaluate   your your understanding of how the of how the world works. Yes. And   virtual and then   what this what this show has done in part as creating it with fundamentals   and going through and going through the process of of sort of digging into the material   is that I realized that   there's a lot there that I had not explored,   and   and there's more there   than I thought.  

And I I I was I was I'm surprised.   I'm just   I wasn't expecting this.  

[00:39:23] Unknown:

You just made me you just made me not remember the lyrics of chocolate's torture that   Are we gonna be really meaningful?   I'm gonna like, I had all these comments. I was gonna respond to what you just said. I'm gonna wait till I hit these lyrics   because, it's   yeah, it's absolutely the case.   You wanna dig in? You wanna get into it? Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it.   Let's  

[00:39:51] Unknown:

okay. I have I have them somewhere. And for the record, I mentioned this early in our early episodes. I'm not a lyric person. So every time we pull up lyrics, I'm like, really? That's what they say. I'm always, like, surprised by half of it. So I'm on the Fishnet,  

[00:40:06] Unknown:

fish Net version. So am I. So am I. Yeah. Yeah. So written by Tran Stagio and Tom Marshall.   Alright. Let's do it. Let's let's do this. So, like,   let's let's say all the lyrics, even the ones that are   just total   Nonsense. Decoys.   Okay.   Maybe decoys. Decoys. I like that. Maybe I maybe you see something, but I see maybe some decoys.   Okay. Here we go.   Just brace yourselves because this one get this one just gets weird.   Okay.   First verse.   Come stumble my mirth beaten worker.   I'm Jasmine, the family berserker.  

[00:40:49] Unknown:

I mean, every family has a berserker, right? Anything  

[00:40:52] Unknown:

I don't see anything there. I don't know if there's nothing about you. Come stumble my mirth beat Unless it's just like,   you know,   unless it's like a guy who's doing backbreaking work Yeah.   And that we're setting up that we're setting up the fact that people are, you know, people are doing backbreaking work and   just aren't getting paid   appropriately   for  

[00:41:17] Unknown:

that. Yeah. Sets the tone.  

[00:41:21] Unknown:

I'm bought for the price of a flag and a rice.   The winds buff the cabin. You speak of your life or more willingly locust the larker.  

[00:41:30] Unknown:

Oh.  

[00:41:32] Unknown:

So that line about being bought for the price of a flag and a rice   Yeah. Is a fan favorite, but I think that might have you know,   you you have a medium of exchange and a unit of account being invoked   here. You do.   A Flagon is a unit that I'd never heard of   before,   Fish.   A Flagon of rice, and I've never even thought to look it up if it's even a real thing, but I assume it is.   Do you have any have you ever heard the term flagon before as a unit of rice? I always thought it was like a satchel.  

[00:42:11] Unknown:

Like, in that A satchel. It's not like a Old like old English.   Yeah. Large container for drinks. So it's not for   Okay. It's typically as a handle.  

[00:42:23] Unknown:

Okay. So, I mean, look, we've connected work. Now I've written an essay called Everybody Has a Price, and he's basically saying I'm bought for the price of a flag. I'll work for,   you   know, come stumble my mirth beating worker. I'm Jasmine, the family berserker.   I bought for the price of a flag and a rice. And then,   you know, I don't know what else he's saying but, it   sounds like nonsense.   But cool sounding nonsense.  

[00:42:50] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:42:52] Unknown:

Okay. And so then we go into a new verse. Mhmm. Confuse what you can of the ending and revise your despise so impending.   Because I soak on the wrath that you didn't quite mask. I'm getting it clearly through alternate paths or mixed in with the signal you're sending.   Yeah. So, obviously, when I when I when I pulled up the lyrics, I touching on something. It's touching on something. But, like Yeah. It's all the I I mean, we talk about signal all the time in Bitcoin. Right? That there's, I was like the I was like that lyric. It felt like he was talking about I'm getting it clearly throughout in the past. Like, okay. I'm hearing you in stereo. I'm hearing you very clearly.   I'm here. I'm present.  

It's I'm either hearing it in stereo or it's all mixed in with the signal you're sending. I don't know. Like, I don't think this I don't think there's anything that deep here.   But, like Yeah. I mean, I was looking missing it entirely. I thought all all of the good stuff starts   after  

[00:43:52] Unknown:

this. I mean, I mean, I when I when I it's funny. They always say first thought, best thought, and that's another, like, pithy thing to say. Do you think long is just wrong? Yeah. When when I first glanced at those lyrics, I saw them, you know, bought for the price.   And those two lines there,   Mick, I'm getting it clearly through alter alternate paths. What does that remind me of? I mean, it reminded me of just the state of, like, we're being bombarded   like never   before   with, information with stimuli.   And to find the signal through all that is man.  



[00:44:28] Unknown:

Oh, that's good. It's rough. Because I think that I think I think that might be the setup for the chorus. You know?   Like,   it could be like we are you know, when you   you get you start going out of the Bitcoin rabbit hole and you're   getting it through the fire hose   of many different subjects.   And so I'm getting it clearly through alternate paths or mixed in with the signal you're sending. I mean, yeah. I mean, that would be it would make sense if he's talking to Bitcoin.   You know?   Jasmine, the family berserker.   And you're almost become you know, you are a berserker. Like, you're like a you know?  

If you're if you're, like, really just there   is a beautiful thing when you fully   realize something new   that's real.  

[00:45:19] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:45:21] Unknown:

Especially something that you think could be life changing and it's new and everything you like you have an unlimited capacity   or seemingly unlimited capacity to consume,   you   know, to consume it.   So maybe that's what this is all   teasing here.   You know, I soak on the wrath that you didn't quite mask. And it's like   it's,   you know, it's it's not even being hidden. It's, It's like look at the like,  

[00:45:54] Unknown:

one of my and we won't get into politics here, but one of the one of my recent,   I don't know,   things that I might have said to, like, my father just talking about, like, I'm just like it's like   the the corruption, the dishonesty is like they're doing it right in front. Like, they don't you're not even trying to hide it anymore. You know what I mean? Like like, as far as what you're   and maybe it's always been this way. Maybe I wasn't I wasn't paying attention. And maybe that's just being 50. We grew up when they were trying to hide it.  

[00:46:23] Unknown:

And they clutched their pearls when they saw it. And now,   there's no yeah. The mask is off. Like Bill Clinton was the turn like tipping point of when, like, you and I mean, that right of sense. Mhmm. That's what they say. But,   yeah.   So okay. So now we get into,   the chorus.   And to me, they hear there's real meat here. Mhmm. Okay?   Almost every line. And maybe we'll have to do this line by line   because this first line, I have so much to say from the first line,   but who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned?   That's so I'll read the whole thing. Who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned as I sat in their chairs and my synapses burned?  



[00:47:09] Unknown:

Their chairs.  

[00:47:11] Unknown:

Yeah. That's interesting. I sat in their chairs.   Mhmm. But this line, but who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned   is,   like, that is my experience   of discovering Bitcoin and I had to like, before there was a rock paper Bitcoin podcast,   there was a rock paper Bitcoin essay   that   was,   explained   how I reengaged   with the world. And, like, literally, how did I it's like   I didn't   have lyrics. How do you reintegrate? Yeah. How but it's almost like how do I   it learning a Bitcoin broke my like, basically made me realize that my under everything I had come to understand   up to this point in my life was based on incomplete information,   and I had to,   revisit   all of it Yep. Now with these facts.  

Right? And so it's like, how who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned? I had to unlearn   it's not that I had to,   You know, I had to learn to walk again and learn English again. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like I had to unlearn. It was like I had to reevaluate   everything I thought I knew   in light of   what I knew to be Bitcoin's existence. And rock paper Bitcoin   was the was a trichotomy   of how to understand   these, like, systems.  

[00:48:37] Unknown:

Mhmm. So,  

[00:48:39] Unknown:

not to get too into it, anyone can go to my blog and see and read it, but, rock paper Bitcoin,   for anyone who doesn't know, rock   is physic you know, it's like   gold, but also, like, physical things, things that are physical in nature. Paper is   fiat,   but also things that are like abstract.   Mhmm. And,   Bitcoin is more of something that's metaphysical that's very real. And what's interesting is the example I one of the   Mhmm. Because,   so like in the education system, you have rock, you have,   physical buildings, you have books, you have   pens and pencils and blackboards and, you know, physical structures.  

You have paper, which is like attendance.   You know, I would say the paper in the books is physical, but the paper, you have attendance, you have  

[00:49:40] Unknown:

Administrative.   Prestige. Yeah. You have Right.  

[00:49:44] Unknown:

Right. You have,   you know, things like, oh, this is such a good school and a good program. You have reputation. The the things like   that don't really   they're not really real.   Right? Then you have things that are real that are metaphysical like learning and knowledge.  

[00:50:00] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:50:01] Unknown:

Right?   And so that's how I started to under that's how I started to think about everything.   Yeah. That was my so the beginning of my Bitcoin rabbit hole   was that. And it was lit it was like, yeah. Yeah.   So who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned   as I sat in their chairs and my synapses burned? Everybody thought he was talking about drugs and probably cocaine, and that's what everyone thought at the time because he was talking talking about fucking neuroscience   with synapses, and he gets into vasoconstrictors   later on. And but that may   be that may be,   more tobacco.  



[00:50:39] Unknown:

I mean,   he uses that word synapses in a time   long before the term, like, neuroplasticity  

[00:50:46] Unknown:

was common language. Yeah. And I think that was neuroplasticity in the last episode, or was that a different podcast? I think it was a different podcast. Not here. Yeah. Different pod. But,  

[00:50:56] Unknown:

you know, I think that's   what he's referring to here. I think he's talking about neural pathways being having the understanding that the more you do something, the more habitual it is, and it  

[00:51:05] Unknown:

just gets burned in. Yeah. I think he's talking about drugs. I don't do so much. Breaking drugs. I think he's just saying that it's breaking I'm using my brain. Like, it's burning through my brain. Who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned as I sat in their chairs and my synapses burned?   Right?   And the torture of of chalk dust collects on my tongue.   Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun.   So the torture of chalk dust collects on my tongue implies that he's sitting in like, he's in school. Mhmm. Right? The torture of chalk dust collects on my tongue unless, you know,   once again, everyone thought this was a drug thing, but it almost certainly wasn't.  



[00:51:45] Unknown:

Mm-mm.  

[00:51:47] Unknown:

It seems like there's school like Bart Simpson ing. You know? Yeah. Like, he's sitting in school, like, wondering what the fuck am I doing here? Like, what,   I don't know. Like like, he's question I mean, seems to be questioning what they're learning.   And, you know, if if Tom and Trey hear this podcast, I'm sure they will one day. They probably laugh their ass off at how seriously we're approaching it. But,   you know, somebody has to do this. Somebody's gotta do this work. Okay? That's the nature of art. You know? It's not it's not it's not up to them. In light of in light of what happens see, hopefully, like, when they do come to when they do come to find this,   presumably,   it'll be because they have discovered   the Bitcoin rabbit hole Right. For themselves.  

Right. And they might be like, shit.   That is what this is like. I mean, there's no way we could have known that in,   1989 or whenever they wrote the song. Right?   It's my best guess at the year. Yeah.   But,   so the torture of chalk dust collects on my tongue.   Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun. All my vasoconstrictors,   they come slowly undone.   Can't this wait till I'm old?   Can't I live while I'm young?   Woah.  

[00:53:06] Unknown:

Yeah. The battle That's a triumphant triumphant  

[00:53:09] Unknown:

moment of the song during a show. That's a moment where 20,000 people all at the same time just go apeshit.  

[00:53:16] Unknown:

Yep. Right?  

[00:53:19] Unknown:

But let's get into this.  

[00:53:22] Unknown:

I just didn't realize they were talking about no KYC cigarettes and and Choctaw's torture until I I looked up the the lyrics.  

[00:53:29] Unknown:

Vassal constructors are known to   respond to cigarette smoke.   I don't know that in the age before the internet anybody really knew that.   Like, I don't know that they even know what these words meant, to be honest. Yeah. They just probably heard them and thought they sounded cool. Mhmm. Kinda like Golgi apparatus.   Right?   But the joke's on us because   it, you know,   it meant something. It meant probably what it was meant to mean.   These two lyrics, can't just wait till I'm old, can't I live while I'm young, we just go back and back and back and back and back to the theme   of   aging,   time,   aging backwards.  

This contrast of, you know,   he knows, like, Can I live while I'm young is quite a lyric for somebody   in his late teens to be writing?   Yeah. We know Trey was wise beyond his years.   Tom   has   I I don't you know, it's Trey who perform you know, who had the has the performing   like, I don't know if I don't I don't know if Tom was wise behind beyond his years. I don't know the answer to that. Right?   He seems that way like these   days. He seemed that way on his podcast.  

[00:54:51] Unknown:

But  

[00:54:52] Unknown:

I don't have an indication   of him as a lyricist as being like wise   as a child  

[00:55:00] Unknown:

other than the fact that he was best friends with Trey, who was wise beyond his years. Yeah. So you you can assume that maybe they're on the same page, but you can't because we don't have much we didn't have much face time with with Tom. You know, we have face time with with you know, we've experienced him. You just don't know him like that. Yeah. We don't know him like that. You know? So but it's still a very wise thing  

[00:55:22] Unknown:

for, like, somebody who is young to be self aware of their youth.   Right? And to say, Hey, can't this wait till I'm old? Can't I live while I'm young? And that's something, I mean, we hear them say these lyrics now that they are not young.   Right?   It's interesting and strange   to   think about it.  

[00:55:43] Unknown:

Yeah.   And, you know, if I were to dig a   stretch the the meaning of of that of those last two lines there in the chorus   Yeah. Again. And when I first read through these,   to me,   I it just rang   it rang true to or similar   to the   the idea that   when we got taken off the gold standard in in the early seventies,   that   we started down this path where   saving money wasn't that wasn't enough. You couldn't just save your money anymore. And it took a while for people to realize   that phenomena   that we refer to as inflation.   But it was more than just inflation. It was about,   you   know, now   every middle aged American is a part time   financial advisor for themselves as it relates to, like, how they're gonna retire. And these were all things that used to be handled by your   your job, like, your pensions.  

I   don't know. It just seemed to, like, kinda point to that.   I'm curious what you think fundamentals, if that's too much of a leap.  

[00:56:59] Unknown:

I I well, I don't see it in the song,   but   it's true it's certainly true. Right? And so maybe the   this question of can't this wait till I'm old, can't I live while I'm young could be about dealing with this.   Like, can I just put this off?   Right? It's just like dealing with this reality,   this black pill reality of the way things are   Gotcha. Especially with that especially in in a time where   the thing that gives us hope doesn't exist yet.   Right?   So, like, it it it you know, realizing   that's why gold bugs are so black filled, miserable, and shitty to be around. Right? Because they all made these realizations before Bitcoin existed and,   you know, it's like,   you know, if you make these if you realize all this before   understanding this tool exists, it's like no there's no hope,   you know, it's pretty dark  

[00:58:00] Unknown:

And then you can get pretty nihilistic about it. Yeah. I always feel bad for gold bugs because, you know, they unfortunately,   at least to my understanding of history, there's never been a time where a solution to a major problem was going backwards,   was like or freezing time or hearkening back to you know what I mean? Like, it's like it's part why we are where we are right now is, like, you have leaders that just wanted things to stay the same. You know? Don't   no.   No no ability to, like, think past, like, the next four years, the next the next election's like or whatever. Just trying to   keep things afloat.  



[00:58:37] Unknown:

But it's like the the base desire we end up having is to want to just   put this put the reality off.  

[00:58:43] Unknown:

Right.   Right. And I think from his at his age, that's more that's more likely to be to be what he what he's trying to put trying to get across. When I first heard this song and I first the first time I heard the lyrics to this song,  

[00:58:57] Unknown:

was probably in 1993 or 1994.   I distinctly remember, see, the thing about Chalk Dust  

[00:59:06] Unknown:

is,  

[00:59:08] Unknown:

you'll really only see it in math class.   It's like math is the last thing that you see chalkboards   being used for, right? Maybe music,   you know, where you have that   the staff, you know, where you have like six pieces of chalk put into the device   that draws Yeah. You can drag yeah. The whole Draws the staff. Maybe that's what they're maybe that's the reference point for Trey's music class.   Interesting. For me personally, it's math class, and I was Yeah. Buried I was getting buried   by,   like, calc three and linear algebra and, like, these math felt like was just like, what the fuck is this?  

[00:59:47] Unknown:

You can just wait till I'm old. Yeah.  

[00:59:51] Unknown:

And,   so chalk does torture. It was torture. Like, for me, like, it was absolutely torture.   I could have never been a math major. I was not mature enough in college,   but, like, I did really   work my ass off and try   my freaking hardest. And I just, like,   got stuck.   I got stuck,   and I would sit and work   work with it for,   like, weeks and not get anywhere.   And then just end up getting Cs in these classes, like, luckily.   And,   so for me, that's just what I felt when I heard this song. And then you get to the last, like, but no peace for Jasmine tonight. It's like, yeah, no shit.   It's like   that is just how this is how it is. Like, math was suffering, which is nothing but suffering,   and it was torture and suffering. And that's to me what the song was always about.  



[01:00:48] Unknown:

And and let me ask you this. When when you were in high school, I I assume you were really good at math. Well, you know, right, like, at least I'm sure. I thought I was. I I I Yeah. A lot of things came naturally.  

[01:00:59] Unknown:

I was,   I didn't get good grades, but I didn't go to high school. I was so I stopped going to high school. I was like, Fuck this shit. This is bullshit. That's what you alluded to. Yeah. But,   I did well on, like, my math SATs. That's how I got into college to begin with.   And part of the reason I had problems I had was because I test when I got to college, I tested into the honors program.   I had no right being there. I had no study habits. I had no understanding of how   to how to really hunker down.   And it's not until and I had no I didn't have the maturity.   Like, mean, really do need a lot of maturity to study math.  

Like that you're going to sit there   and   I mean,   so much of it is especially if you're educated.   So we miss the big thing I think in this song.   So which is, which is now I think I'm maybe alluding to it, which is   the nonsense of the education system to be Oh, yeah. Right?   Yeah.   Not just the nonsense. Yeah. The system, it's,   like there's not it's like a misery industry in and of itself. Like, Fiat is is,   cordially referred to as the misery industry,   but the education system is like a   it's like a sub industry   of the misery industry and that's all it does is produce misery.   Right. Like particularly formal education,   organized   education.  

It's total nonsense. One book I recommend   is Unschooling   Society   by   Ivan Illich,   and he's an author   who,   I'd say was one of the life changing authors,  

[01:02:42] Unknown:

like Ayn Rand for me. Oh, wow. I'll have to check it out.  

[01:02:46] Unknown:

Yeah. It got me to really see these things very clearly.   Yeah.   But I did similar.  

[01:02:52] Unknown:

My first C was freshman year in college and it was calc and I just wasn't   I echo your sentence. I just wasn't ready. And and college math is legit.  

[01:03:03] Unknown:

I got a d in calc one because it was honors. I mean, you could   go listen to my math podcast. I could tell you there was this story about   you can make calculus easy and you can make it hard. Yep. Yep. It's up to the teacher.   Yeah. To their credit, they made it hard. I did terrible in it.   And then,   that so what happened was I had to retake it in the spring, and then I had to take Cal two in this nobody in this fucking nobody listening gives a shit about this, but, like,   I had to take Cal two in the summer   to make up for the time. Of the timing. Yeah. And that was the worst, dumbest thing I ever did because Yeah. Like, it was, like, five or six weeks. Like, I you know, you need a full you need a you need a full semester.  



[01:03:46] Unknown:

To do it. Unless you're a masochist.  

[01:03:49] Unknown:

Yeah. The next semester,   Cal three linear algebra, and then I went to my fish show. And then I went to my first fish show, and then, boom, it's just like I then the next semester, I had took my first actuarial exam, and it was on, Calc one, two, three, and linear algebra. Mhmm. And I basically retaught all of it to myself that semester.   Right. And I got, like, straight a's   and passed the exam, and that's how I got myself, like, started   in getting noticed. And when you pass an actuarial in 1994,   you pass an actuarial exam, you were, like, now on the radar   of companies and getting  

[01:04:26] Unknown:

good internships and stuff like that. That's awesome. So  

[01:04:29] Unknown:

just in time, as they say. Just in time. Just in time. So let's finish the lyrics here. I'm not sure if there's much signal here, but maybe there is. But no peace for Jasmine tonight.   I plug the distress tube uptight.  

[01:04:44] Unknown:

Which is a line that they emphasize. I never I never like I said, I always just dismissed it. Like, everyone he says this lyric a little bit louder than every other lyric.  

[01:04:54] Unknown:

That isn't even the words. Wasn't a lyric.  

[01:04:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't even know what it means. I play it just too. Know why people get I don't know why there's emphasis on it.  

[01:05:03] Unknown:

Now watch what I say as it as it flutters away and all this emotion is kept harmless at bay,   not to educate somebody's fright.   Yeah. There's something here.  

[01:05:18] Unknown:

Well, the word educate is, like, that's  

[01:05:21] Unknown:

But it's more like,   all this emotion is kept harmless at bay.   It's like   you're internalizing   the pain   not to make it other people's problems. You don't want you know, and you're not trying to make other people,   like, ask you what's wrong, What's going on? Are you trying to make your problems somebody else's problems? I don't know what it has to do with Bitcoin necessarily,   but, at least that's how I always  

[01:05:49] Unknown:

kinda thought of those lyrics. It's the human condition. Yeah. And   people's tendency to,  

[01:05:59] Unknown:

keep the peace, you know? The way yeah. Not to educate somebody's fright is, like, not to feed into people's fears. Yeah.   Which we get into the FUD,   You know, we get into the FUD stuff,   which   is  

[01:06:15] Unknown:

This is I think he's pointing more to just, like, black black pilling. Right?  

[01:06:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Maybe it is really He's, like, negative. I'm not trying to black pill you. Yeah. Even though with my realizations   because the technology to give you that would give you hope has not been invented yet.  

[01:06:31] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:06:33] Unknown:

But there's still no peace for Jasmine tonight.   I'm just not gonna make it worse.   Right.   You know, the the only other thing I would say here, and it relates to 1994,   is that there is another song. There's only one other song I'm aware of with a character named Jasmine.  

[01:06:53] Unknown:

I don't know I don't I don't know any.  

[01:06:57] Unknown:

So   in 1994,   '10 '30 '1, we've covered it here, right? The Beatles White Album,   Obla Di, Obla Da.   Jasmine does something at the marketplace.  

[01:07:09] Unknown:

Oh, right. That's right. I do know that was in name. Wow. I think it's Jasmine. Right? I'm not a Beatles I'm not a Beatles person, but I'll take the word for it. I'll take the word for it. You gotta look better, by the way. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to  

[01:07:20] Unknown:

correct myself   once again.  

[01:07:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Right.  

[01:07:27] Unknown:

That's I always thought it was Desmond.   Right? Oh, it's Desmond.   Desmond. Okay. That's more English. Still, though. Desmond has a barrow in the marketplace. Molly is a singer in a band.  

[01:07:40] Unknown:

It definitely had some sort of valley subconscious influence on Trey for this one.   Yeah. It's a strange   name. It's a phonetic. It's like you know what I mean? It's a phonetic. Yeah. It's for the sound of it. Yeah.  

[01:07:53] Unknown:

And I think the 1994   connection is relevant.  

[01:08:02] Unknown:

Alright.  

[01:08:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Who do you think?  

[01:08:04] Unknown:

I think it was a good rip. Think we did it?  

[01:08:09] Unknown:

Who do you wanna thank?  

[01:08:12] Unknown:

Who do I wanna thank?   Yeah.   I'm gonna thank,   God for making this all possible.  

[01:08:20] Unknown:

Yes. For sure.   I'm trying to think if there's anything else   on Chuck Dust Torture. Like, I have to tell you, like so   you kinda like kinda like Bathtub Gin, but more like of a sleeper of a jam vehicle.   Right? It's not like, when I I mentioned Bathtub Gin is the first, what I think is the first type to jam ever. Truckless Torture   was never a song anyone thought was going to become of a jam vehicle until   Camden ninety nine. Right.  

[01:08:52] Unknown:

And then, like, the roof came off the song. Yeah. And they said You're gonna you're gonna fade this. You're gonna you're gonna end this show with that with that with that version,  

[01:09:02] Unknown:

the '99, or or you wanna do the '99? So. I think I wanna just end it with chop this reprise.  

[01:09:08] Unknown:

Oh, right. You already said that. I'm sorry.  

[01:09:10] Unknown:

In the show notes, I think what we'll do is we'll link the Mexico version. But so one of those things, it's a Choctest is just a sleeper   where it could be a three minute song if they want it to be, like it was on Letterman, a great version.   Yeah. And sometimes they just decide, you know what? We're not done, and we're gonna go. And the Chuck Test   is maybe a spiritual vehicle.   So   I like that we covered it because a lot of these songs, like, have the you know, it carries this potential energy.  

[01:09:40] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:09:42] Unknown:

Like, to meet Choctaw is the total sleeper of a jam vehicle.   Yep. And just   in '99   snuck up on people. You know, like, it wasn't like Lawn Boy   where, okay, it's the baker's dozen and we know they're gonna try to make long jams out of songs that are not jam vehicles. It's still Lawn Boy.  

[01:10:03] Unknown:

AKA Lawn Man. By the way, I'm wearing my, my baker's tuxedo. Nice.  

[01:10:08] Unknown:

That was my favorite. Lawn Man was my favorite, like, game. Lawn Man? Yeah.   But, like,   yeah, Choctis just snuck up and became   you know, it just became   what it is. So  

[01:10:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I was just inspired I think I was I was really inspired by the bathtub gin episode. Like, it really got me   it got the juices flowing. Like, I feel like I peeled back a new layer that I   thought I'd already gone through all the layers. Nice.  

[01:10:36] Unknown:

Nice.  

[01:10:38] Unknown:

And, hopefully, I brought that sentiment up well in the, with my   man of words.   But,   you know, I I really do see this this show. We I mean, I think you've brought up a couple of different strategies. We could,   we could we could and we can mix in a variety of these. Albums,   pick a song. I especially like these songs that have   you know, started in the early nineties and still are still being played today. Like, I think those are more those are important songs because they go back to your era in 9094,   and they carry through mine, and they're still relevant to a a new fan.  

[01:11:13] Unknown:

But, also, it's kinda like like, when I read a cryptography book that I know was written in before, like,   before the nineties   Yeah. You're like, you know that it would like, you know it's not affected by knowledge of Bitcoin.   Right? But it's like channeling the Phil Zimmerman   type   of cypherpunk era somehow. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's like the spirit of it almost. That's why I like songs from this era that might indicate.   Do I think Chalk Dust is a song that really,   you know, do I think Talk does rep is, like, the best representative of a song like that? Probably not. But I think it did what we what we noticed. I think it does do what we know. Before we,  

[01:12:05] Unknown:

go on here with the last song, I just wanna remind you, like I said in the beginning, this is the last night in the tour for us. We're gonna fly home tomorrow.   And,   I'm pretty excited about it. And and, we wanna just take a moment to thank, some of the people that don't get thanked very often that you don't see. It takes a lot of people to bring this whole thing around. And we're gonna just pay a little tribute to to our crew to give you a little background music and then we're gonna tell you who we are.   Okay.  

Okay. I'm gonna tell you who they are here while we get a little chalk dust towards you with fries.   This is these are the people who bring you this, and I wanna thank you guys all for for doing it for us every day. First of all, our tour manager is Kenny Silver. He's standing right over there. Thanks a lot, Kenny.   The guy who,   Kevin Brown is the guy who you see come out here tune the piano in between sets. Let's hear it for Kevin.   The guy   who brings out the trampolines every night, who broke the balls out of you, that's Brad Sam.   Of course, sitting back there at the South Board, ladies and gentlemen, the person who built both these guitars,   the person who runs sad every night, the one and only,   Paul Languedon.  

Bob Newlin, Senator Bob, we love you.   Our rigor, the guy who's in charge of hanging this all up here. I bet you never knew there were this many people that had to do this. Anyway, the guy who's in charge of hanging this stuff every night so it doesn't fall on our heads is the one and only Steve Kendall.   Yes. Very important job. Sitting out there at the light board with Chris Coroda is Mark Vincent who's helping out lighting crew chiefs.   Let's see who else we got here. Another lighting tech, Peter Luther, is also sitting over here. Peter, we love him. Roger Pujol   is the guy who's charged for moving lights and now   at the Birch table. You know her. You love her. I want everybody to give her a kiss   Thank you for bearing with us. These people are very important to us and support us to do this. Thanks.  

Oh, the person who drives our bus and gets us here safely every night, Shooter John Schott, also standing somewhere over there. Thanks, Shooter. We love you.   The crew bus driver is Bobby Lesser, another very important person who gets us here safely.   Oh, yes. Two truck drivers who drive this stuff all around. Tom Lehy, Roadshow, and Kevin Collins. Also, thank you guys.   Our security chief, Rap Man two thousand, standing somewhere out there.   And then the last person,   this is another person I wanna go. I'll give a kiss out of the way.   Sitting at the Greenpeace table.  

Greenpeace   Mike.