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Fundamentals Blog Post
https://risk-fundamentals.ghost.io/phish-and-bitcoin-a-continuum-of-genius-network-effects-and-unintentional-foreshadowing/

Fundamentals
X: @Fundamentals21m
nostr: npub12eml5kmtrjmdt0h8shgg32gye5yqsf2jha6a70jrqt82q9d960sspky99g
Jason
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Outro Song: Twist 11/1/2013, Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, NJ
https://phish.in/2013-11-01/twist


In this episode, we dive into the fascinating world of Bitcoin and its parallels with the band Phish. We start with a humorous discussion about the spelling of "fundamentals" and transition into a deeper conversation about the unique platforms within the Bitcoin community, like Stacker News, which offers a refreshing alternative to traditional forums like Reddit. We explore the concept of Satoshis, the smallest unit of Bitcoin, and how they democratize access to cryptocurrency.

Our discussion takes a nostalgic turn as we reminisce about the early days of the internet, Usenet, and the vibrant yet harsh communities that existed there. We draw parallels between the internet culture of the past and the current state of online discourse, particularly in the Bitcoin and Phish communities.

We delve into the challenges of sharing niche content in broader communities, recounting personal experiences of skepticism and resistance when introducing Bitcoin to Phish fans. This leads to a broader discussion on the misconceptions surrounding Bitcoin and the persistent myths perpetuated by its detractors.

The episode also touches on the history of Bitcoin's emergence, its initial valuation through the famous pizza transaction, and the impact of platforms like Silk Road in establishing Bitcoin's global presence. We contrast Bitcoin's decentralized nature with the centralized control of altcoins, emphasizing the unique value proposition of Bitcoin.

Throughout the episode, we draw intriguing connections between Phish's music and Bitcoin, highlighting the band's innovative spirit and the parallels in their journeys. We reflect on Phish's decision to take a hiatus in 2004, likening it to the conviction required to embrace Bitcoin in a world that often misunderstands it. Join us as we explore these themes and more, celebrating the intersection of music and cryptocurrency.

[00:00:14] Fundamentals:

Hey there. Jason.   Fundamentals.   How are you, man? I'm good. Hey. I had a great idea, by the way.   I've been spelling my name fundamentals with an f, and that is utterly stupid. Why am I not spelling it with a p h? It would it would be a lot cooler if you spelled it with a p h. Cooler. So I decided and   one of the reasons I made I saw it, made this decision,   I got a little funny story. I   well, so   in Bitcoin, there's a bunch of places to post things. If you wanna, like, you know, there's message boards and they're really cool because,   like, Reddit sucks. Why does Reddit suck? Because anyone can post anything there and then it's this   stupid upvote, downvote system.  

You know, a lot of the times, good signal gets drowned out because if you don't post something that's popular,   you know.   But in Bitcoin, we have tools   that   that, like, really remind me of old Usenet. But we have tools like Stacker News   that you can post things to. You pay, you know, you pay a diminimous amount of Satoshis just to prove you're a human being. Right.   And then, you know, at least your   content can be fairly seen It won't be down voted.   It might   be you might, instead of up and down votes, there's just boosts. So people can just send   you SATs. So by the way, SATs,   if I have to explain that to fish fans who don't know what Bitcoin is and you're just joining us here episode   six. SATs are   are money, short for satoshis.  

Satoshis   are,   100 millionth of a Bitcoin. So,   like,   there's a lot of people that are like, I can't afford a whole Bitcoin.  

[00:02:01] Jason:

Well, yes. I'll I'll just give up. I can't I can't do it. It's $85,000  

[00:02:05] Fundamentals:

or 92,000   depending on where we are after   you know, if some idiot has made a tweet that caused the market to to pump today.   But, yeah, very few people have $85,000   sitting around to buy a Bitcoin.   And,   but the reality is there is, you do not have to operate in that unit. We operate   most people don't talk about Bitcoin. They talk about sats. Mhmm. So a Satoshi, which is named after Satoshi Nakamoto,   IE character zero,   if you listened last week.   We named the,   the unit after him. Mhmm.   You know, I don't think he defined   this unit. However,   the having schedule   has the lowest amount of   reward   as one Satoshi that will be rewarded in the final mining epoch that ends in the year twenty one forty.  



[00:02:59] Jason:

Mhmm.  

[00:03:00] Fundamentals:

Which may be when sci fi soldier is scheduled to   appear again. Who who knows? Right?   These are the things I think about. Yeah. So,   on Stacker News, site like stack Stacker News is a lot like a modern day version of what Usenet used to be. Okay. And if I even don't remember Usenet.   You know, Google   either rmp or rec.music.fish,   please. I'm sure some of you have heard of this.   These this was one of the greatest places   ever to be. And, you know, it's so weird that I'm a 50 year old guy that still has a bit of a romanticized   version of what the Internet is and what could be. Yep. Because   of how great Usenet was. Usenet was a mess.  

It was a mess. Yeah. The UX was terrible. Right? Which means it's good. Which means it's true. Because of UX. I mean, because of assholes. It was already happening. Okay? It's not like it's not like everybody was all nice and,   you know, already it's one of the meanest things I'd ever experienced up until my life, and I was bullied a lot   in real life. Like, I was super bullied. I wore glasses when I was five years old, like, the year 1980.   And I don't know if you're aware of glasses fashion, but it was very slow to evolve. There was one stop. In the eighties. Yeah. There was like John Denver. There were there were John Denver glasses and and I had the Coke bottle ones, and it was like my parents had no   no qualms whatsoever about what was gonna happen to me. Right. The truth was I didn't really even need them. And I I discovered this by just not refusing to wear them and realizing I was fine.  



[00:04:35] Jason:

Right.  

[00:04:37] Fundamentals:

So funny how that works. Like, my,   my parents tried to convince me I was allergic to chocolate   also as a kid. And then one day I I don't I do think I had, like, a nervous issue that came from chocolate. Like a hyperactivity thing or something. Something yeah. That was like, it's I think that's actually true. But in my mind, I'm like, they just don't want me to eat chocolate.   And they just came up with a scam. So it was a rude And I'm gonna prove it. I'm gonna eat some chocolate. I'm gonna be fine. I'm gonna do it behind their back.   And so the glasses thing was like, at some point, I was like, do I really need these glasses? They're really causing me   a lot of fucking pain, dude. People were just pounding on me. Like, it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal.  

I think this is why I ended up learning to be like a stand up because learning to be a comedian. Because it's like was the only way to defend myself. And there was a long road between   me being able to use my mouth to first, it got me even more beat up   until Right. I found the line.   You know? Right.   Mhmm.   The witch and the wardrobe? No.  

[00:05:44] Jason:

Yeah.  

[00:05:45] Fundamentals:

There are too many callbacks to last week. I like we're finally developing a group that we're actually can call back to prior episodes. So, you know Yeah. I I wore glasses. I got beat up as a lot as a kid, but I don't think I ever, like, experienced anything as mean as I did   on Usenet   the first time. I think I posted some I think it might have been on alt   TV Star Trek, and I said something. And somebody just had the most like, it was so well articulated, just the most biting   criticism of how juvenile my opinions were. And I remember, like, being hurt like, really, like, hurt by it. I was like, damn.   Like, oh, this is pretty so don't get the impression that the Internet was all roses and rainbows and all of that shit. It was it was still pretty mean and wild, but it was still beautiful and great. Like, there was still   there was still, like, you   could grow up, filter those things out, and find   wonder and greatness. Mhmm. And rec music fish   as, you know,   as messed up as it was, I mean, they were, like, bad taper alerts, bad traders alert. Maybe we'll get into that a little later today. Mhmm. There were all these, like, you know scoring and Groveling. Yeah. I learned the term I think the term groveling   was a even more,   it was an even more,   I'll say more a part of the scene than chomper.  

We all think chomper is a big thing, but chomper you take a chomper away and you're not missing anything. Mhmm. It's fun and funny.   Mhmm. Chompers, tarpers. You got I mean, I think wook isn't a is a is a big boy. So that's in the linguist.   But   the word groveler and groveling was a big one. And it was basically people begging for tapes. They're saying, you know, god, I want this show so bad. Who can I'm groveling. Can I send blanks and postage to somebody?   And just hoping It was like a shame it was like a shameless plug, but but it was a request. It was a shameless request. Thing though. People used to get tapes that way. People would there there'd be tapers. I'd be like, yeah. Right. Fine. I I respect your gravel.   Yeah. And, you know,   so   sure. Oh, so we have these tools today in Bitcoin that are still kinda cool because,   right, it's not totally up to,   I'm just gonna say the lowest common denominator of society that can dictate   whose posts get seen and whose don't,   which is really, I think, the first   real defect we have found in the Internet in twenty years, which is that we've discovered that   intelligent   speech is actually punished. Right? This is not what this podcast is about. I just like Mhmm. This is all this is all this is all set up   because I,   you know, I shared   this podcast on Stacker News. I paid a few Satoshis. I think I paid a couple hundred Satoshis to and I post every episode to Stacker News. And there was a guy who responded and asked about it, and I think he was like an old deadhead. So he was sort of like, oh, I see I don't really see fish content on Stacker News. So he decided to engage with me, and we went back and forth a little bit. Mhmm. And then he, turns out he's the guy that publishes the weekly email about Stacker News, and he featured us   Wow. Which I thought was really cool. He he Very cool. He said, everyone give this thing a listen. Check it out. It's new and it's like,   something I do wanna talk about today is that,   the basic   conversation   in Bitcoin, and I'm gonna probably guess it's true and fish too, is pretty old and tired.  

The feeling's not the same. In fact, it's getting pretty The good old days. It's just not that great anymore.  

[00:09:40] Jason:

Right? Yep. K.  

[00:09:44] Fundamentals:

I'm a little disconnected from the fish side of it because I just don't I stopped I really stopped engaging there in   2021   when,   you know, frankly, I think the divisiveness   around   the,   COVID shit Yeah.   Really,   harmed music scenes.   And God forbid, you were not on the popular side of that. You just basically had no voice.  

[00:10:14] Jason:

Yeah.  

[00:10:15] Fundamentals:

And so I was not on the right side of that, and so I, you know, I stopped engaging entirely.   Mhmm. Mhmm. Right?   I don't like I mean, I get it. It's like there was this   there was this movement that was just like, dude, just shut the fuck up and do what we have to do to get our shows back. Right.   Right. You know, it's not just like it's not as shallow as we just want our shows to go to. There's real people making real livings   that we know and love. I mean, dude, I was getting   I was having,   my daughter get piano lessons from Joel Cummings of Humphreys McGee, and I was like, this is, like, crazy and incredible.  

[00:10:51] Jason:

It's amazing.   It's  

[00:10:53] Fundamentals:

awesome. And one of these days, maybe I'll tell I'll talk about how great that was for her.   Like, just   getting permission   to be   like, getting permission to jam and to do things because Joel says Joel told you you should do it because yeah.   But, like, what a time.   But it that time sucked for those people. Like, it's kinda sad and fucked up that Joel Cummins had to do,   piano lessons to make a living, and we wanted them to get back to work. And everybody, you know, wasn't just like, oh, give me my shows back.   I get   it. But it was very poisonous and horrible and divisive. And I think it I I   fear that it's actually permanent, although   I don't know.  

Yeah. Right?   So not engaging really much with phish Twitter too much with phish   message boards. Engaging a lot.   I was engaging a lot with Bitcoin, but I'm finding that is also very   pretty shallow also these day. I mean, I'll just say, like, I'm disheartened by it. It's why I do four podcasts and a a roadblock   because I I wanna I want the conversation to be rich and interesting.   Yep. And most people, they just wanna talk about price   and   shit coins and all this. So, okay, this is all my god. Twelve minutes of   setup. It's to say well, okay. So Stacker News was really cool. I had a really good experience posting   to Stacker News, and so I do it now regularly.  

I was on fish.net.   What was I looking up? I think I was just looking up something we had talked on the podcast about, and I didn't even realize that there was still a discussion board there.   Okay. Like like a for like a forum? Yeah. I had no idea. I went and checked it out, and it was like, oh, shit, dude. There's still, like, a big forum there on phish.net.   That's   strange. So I decided, you know what? Let me post about the podcast.   So I made I registered an account. I had to wait a day   to be able to post anything.   Went under the name Fundamentals with a PH. So that was the the birth of fundamentals of the pH.  



[00:13:01] Jason:

That's so cool.  

[00:13:04] Fundamentals:

God. Like, how how was I not doing that before?   No idea.   So finally, I do I I make the post,   and   immediately, I got, like, three replies, like, fuck off. No. Thank you.   And, don't scam me. Yeah.   And down voted to shit. And then I was I was able to make, like, a couple of responses. I was like, hey. I get it. You know, I get this is what you think. I actually   want   to bring nuance.   And then I got downvoted some more to the point where I couldn't even reply to anything. I wasn't allowed  

[00:13:39] Jason:

to reply to anything anymore. So they have a downvoting  

[00:13:42] Fundamentals:

mechanism as well when they're showing that. Yeah. So this was my first post. So it really did I mean, you know Yeah. You were, like, brand new. Like, you Didn't look good. Okay. Didn't look good. The optics weren't perfect. Yeah. Didn't look great. Yeah. Yeah. But   I'll just say it was a it was not a great experience. I mean, there were a couple of guys that are like, you're going to   you're coming to Phish.net to create signal? You're stupid. And I was like Right. That's I get it. But, like, there's a I'm not really sure where to go   in the fish world to share this.  

So,   maybe we'll just keep that in the air. And if anybody wants to hit me in   Twitter or Noster,  

[00:14:19] Jason:

Well, I shared well, I shared with you,   a very similar experience, but it was with just my   I have a group chat with, like, thirty, thirty five people. Some of which I don't really actually know very well. It's like a really an extended fish circle. But my Is it like basically,  

[00:14:35] Fundamentals:

to get tickets? It's like a couple of extended buddies to get tickets and crash at people's places.  

[00:14:40] Jason:

It's no. It's more like a lot of people went to like, they all went to Penn State. Like, they're, like, some of them are really, really old friends, and they're 10 gen. Like, they've gone maybe gone to a few shows together. But but our crew our the crew that I go to a lot of shows with is part of that circle. Got it. And I I think I shared with you screenshots of the response that I got when I posted   a a pod just just saying, hey. You know? This is really a   a fish podcast that sort of talks about Bitcoin.   And I got this   rant of a response that was very angry and thought I was trying to because I was a scammer and just all this all these other all this baggage of where people just don't understand what's going on. It  

[00:15:21] Fundamentals:

it's and I think it's like it's the equivalent of when I   sometimes   share   that I'm going to a fish show   when somebody will say, well, you know, don't do any heroin when you're there. Right. Right. And it's like, okay. I see where you're coming from, but, like, holy shit. Like, you like, in terms of the levels of where people are at in their perception,   yeah, there are people in both worlds that are at such a low level of their perception   that   fish is nothing but a filthy drug band   for Mhmm. Drug addled losers,   And Bitcoin is nothing but a Ponzi scheme or scam or worse, frankly. Right? It's And boil yeah. And boiling the oceans and and all the Yeah. Horrible all the horrible shit. Right? And so, I mean, so here's a couple this is what we're gonna use this episode on today. K. We're just gonna address, I   think, these things. And I'm gonna compare and contrast this be with fish   because,   because I think it's really interesting. The connection becomes really interesting here.  

You know, I don't think that there are any   conspiracies of world governments to make us not like fish. I think fish basically   did it all by themselves.   The entire and when I say fish, it's mostly us.   The fans did it all by themselves.   Okay? All of the perceptions that people have   come strictly from what happens   at fish shows.   Am I would you disagree with it's not like anyone was paid to say, you know what?   Like,   Moe  

[00:16:59] Jason:

Moe is, working for the government, and they're like, we're gonna, like, you know, we're gonna fud the shit out of fish now. Right. Or like or or or like fish is is feeding our kids drugs and you know what I mean? Or any kind of, like,   conspiratorial  

[00:17:13] Fundamentals:

new there are no articles on fish because nobody writes about them. There's no and now fish people are like, well, duh. Okay? Because they don't believe in conspiracies in general. Right? But let me just tell you that   there are,   organizations,   well funded governments throughout the world who desperately want Bitcoin to fail. They need Bitcoin to fail, and they will stop at nothing to do so.   And in year sixteen, it's become financially   unworkable   to try to use   to try to financially kill it, meaning   so getting into some of the ways that well funded attacks have happened, like, you can actually buy   miners,   buy enough to create what's called a 51   attack.  

And if you control, you know, if you buy enough miners and control the hash rate, you can definitely,   control who wins blocks.   Right?   Mhmm. Now that was   a strategy that   could have worked in, like, 2015   Yeah. Because it wasn't that expensive. But today, it would cost,   like, you   actually the amount of energy the reason why Bitcoin uses the energy it does is because the and is part of it is the amount of energy it would take to co opt it actually doesn't even exist on this planet. So, like, you couldn't even you couldn't even spend the money.   So why do I bring that up? So the the reason   for that is that   what they do is they do social attacks.  

Okay. So if they can just now attack it in our mind and say it's unethical.   It's not fair. There aren't there aren't enough.   There's not enough Bitcoins for everybody.   They're boiling the ocean. It uses too much energy.   Who will build the roads?   Am I missing anything?   Right? So, like, you have companies like Ripple   who   guess what? Guess who they own? They own Greenpeace.   Mhmm. Right? Ripple is a giant shitcoin   company.  

[00:19:13] Jason:

It's the scam. It it Provides nothing. Frank. It's it's the most dishonest of all of them, in my opinion. Yes. Because they are they  

[00:19:21] Fundamentals:

literally   do the most blatant they fund the most blatant propaganda. Like, I'm surprised they haven't created a Ben and Jerry's   ice cream flavor   called, like, you know, Bitcoin death or something like that. Mhmm. You know? That is just like an empty  

[00:19:36] Jason:

carton. Yeah. It has a big poison.  

[00:19:39] Fundamentals:

So, like, if you guys think we're crazy, just Google, like, Ripple Bitcoin, and you'll just find all the stories. It's just like that. This is what they do. So you remember how, like,   how Fish was able to create this world where Caswell Fox   existed?  

[00:19:54] Jason:

Mhmm.  

[00:19:55] Fundamentals:

You know? And one of the coolest uses of the Internet with fake data ever.  

[00:20:02] Jason:

Yeah. Right? I think I mentioned that. I mean, I Google it. I everyone Googled it at the show, and they're like, oh, well, there's a page. So  

[00:20:09] Fundamentals:

it What a cool thing to go through to realize. Right?   Maybe I'll read from that today.   However, that that's what Ripple does   to Bitcoin, just not in a cool way.   They just it's they're constantly   writing stories,   suing you're trying to create   data   that makes it look like a horrible thing for society. And that this this company is truly nonproductive. This company does nothing for the world. They create a shitcoin called XRP   that   they're all that I mean,   maybe we get into it a little bit here. Mhmm. Why is Bitcoin not a scam?   And yet every other of the 20,000   altcoins   are scams?  

Because I'm gonna talk let's talk about that. Okay, Jason? Can we do that here? Sure. This is gonna be the scam episode. You know, you talked about   what should have been one of the greatest moments of your life,   which was,   going to the mothership in Hampton on March when Fish returned from permanent hiatus,   and you got scammed. You bought a ticket that was turned out to be fake. When did you find out that that ticket was fake?  

[00:21:20] Jason:

So the ticket was never delivered.   Ah, okay. It was one of those get turned over the door. Yeah. Because, you know, they shipped ticket. They were still doing pretty much paper tickets at this time.   Got it. So you were never shipped your ticket? Yeah. So and and and the understanding, I believe the way that that run was set up is, like, yeah. You you order a ticket. You got tickets whether it was through fish or through Ticketmaster or whatever, but they didn't ship till, like, a month before the show.  

[00:21:45] Fundamentals:

There are a lot of scams.   So I just never the tickets just never showed up. Yeah. It sucks, dude. So I'm sorry for you that that happened. Yeah. Yeah. Now for you, that's a low that that should have been a great moment for you in your life, but at least that wasn't you know, it didn't cost you   your life savings or Correct. PayPal took care. A marriage or anything. It might have cost you those things to go.  

[00:22:07] Jason:

Right.  

[00:22:09] Fundamentals:

But we digress.   Yeah.   I remember, again, back to Usenet, we there'd be bad taper alerts.   Don't trade with this guy.   He never sent me my tapes.   Right? And then there'd be disputes. There'd be some, like because people would use bad taper,   like, alerts just to get revenge on people who weren't bad tapers. And   so it did it, you know, it did get muddy.   The Internet was not you know, the Internet was always messed up, and it was always the place where we didn't know who was right or whatnot. But they're you know, scams are not unique to the financial world.   Okay?  

But   in the bureau we live in   in now, right,   with the amount of   printed money in circulation   and the amount of money printing that the government does continues to raise the hurdle rate on what your money has to do   just to keep up with purchasing power.   I swim from the you know, I feed from the bottom, you feed from the top, and if nothing comes down, I'm forced to swim up. Mhmm. People   have people, I think, are compelled or incentivized   to take bigger risks   in the world we live in now   because they're up against   a tidal wave, the tsunami   that's running, chasing them. Right? The tsunami is the government print the governments around the world printing money. Yeah. And it's like you you could be in Uganda,   and it's The US money printer that's chasing you. Correct. Okay. And then we that's just   you guys are gonna have to read a book on how and why that is. There's a there's a ton of them. K?  

But just US money printing has really   ruined societies around the world. In fact, it ruins The US the least   because at least   at least we get to enjoy it. We make it to have one party with it before   before it becomes   totally worthless.   But this is like, we are debasing the reserves of these countries who don't otherwise have dollars.   Right. And this is how, like, we got them to pay for the Vietnam War. This is how we got them to pay for basically everything we do. So, again, not to digress too much, but the Sure.   This is why   these stupid scams start looking like good ideas to people.  

So   this is why we have Altcoins.   Okay? We have Altcoins. We have two for two reasons. One, I think the biggest reason   is   how do I say this?   People   don't like the limitations that Bitcoin imposes.   They wanna be able to you know, I mean, for some it's not all about people aren't all trying to get something for nothing.   But,   you know,   at some point, you don't wanna play the Bitcoin game because it's too restrictive. That's that's how you feel about it. People feel that it's too restrictive.   It doesn't,   you know, it doesn't print blocks fast enough. It doesn't,   you know, oh, I want you know, it's it's too limited. 21,000,000   coins. That's not enough. Yeah. That'll never work. Yeah. That'll never work. So there are I mean, I think that's legitimately   part of   normal human psychology   is to, like, basically look at the limitations of Bitcoin and say, I don't I don't wanna be restricted to that. Is there some other way?  



[00:25:39] Jason:

Right. And I think that was the initial the initial wave of Altcoins.   I'll let you continue, but that was I think it have Yes. I agree. It devolved from from there. Yeah. So I think it starts with this sort of kind of basic human,  

[00:25:52] Fundamentals:

you know,  

[00:25:55] Jason:

this Yeah. I wanna make it better. I I wanna make it better and make it better.  

[00:25:59] Fundamentals:

I'm gonna iterate. Right? Yeah. Why why should we   be stuck with this one thing? Maybe we have more things. You know?   Okay. So here's the distinction. Okay?   See, Bitcoin   is 100%   truly decentralized.   K? There's no central issuer. There's no foundation that can decide   whether anything gets printed or not. If there's a mistake, there's nobody to correct it.   And it is the settlement. Yep. Only one   where that is true.  

[00:26:35] Jason:

And Correct? Allow me,   I agree. And And and if you allow me, I actually wanna go back just take a a slight step before   that, at least in in my kind of hierarchy of   why Bitcoin's different Mhmm. Is that when Bitcoin was released into the wild, because, really, Bitcoin just runs now, just so everyone knows. Like, you really can't turn it off. You'd have to go hunt down   millions, if not hundreds of millions of pieces of hardware around the globe and and capture them.   So when it was released into the wild,   you know, with a unique problem to solve, and it is essentially to separate   the money   from the government.  

So separation of money from state, if you will.   I've heard I think it's,   Canute   that   first referenced this, the idea of the immaculate conception   of Bitcoin.   And that is gave us element zero Correct. As we talked about last week. Shout out to Canute, dude. Dude records great books. Go check it. And I love his, like, his philosophical way of thinking, but he also kinda ties it all into the, you know, pragmatic   pragmatic,  

[00:27:43] Fundamentals:

guidance. Also a good musician, by the way.   Quality   musician.   Canoo. He's actually  

[00:27:51] Jason:

you know, he think he plays bass, and you you you see Oh, I didn't know that. Playing. Yeah. He's actually pretty good. Oh, I didn't know that about him. Okay. Cool. Yep. That that even makes more sense. But this idea that because   Bitcoin didn't have any value, there was no market for something like Bitcoin when it was released. It was the first of its kind,   and it took a while just like gold   kinda was a,   I don't know, an emergent an emergent   thing where people started to recognize its properties, and   and it just started to emerge that, hey. This this actually   is good money. This might be the best money we've ever seen as people studied it. Yeah. And that because it wasn't didn't have a dollar   price initially attached to it, that it was allowed to decentralize like you like you had said   organically   without anybody having any kind of nefarious thinking because there was nothing that there was nothing that came develop. It was always decentralized,  

[00:28:47] Fundamentals:

but it was able to develop  

[00:28:49] Jason:

in a panic way. Like but actually   become more  

[00:28:53] Fundamentals:

decentralized. Yes. Like, it could discover all the people that want it that we're gonna wanna be part of this and use it. It was able to do that very slowly   under the radar.  

[00:29:03] Jason:

Right? That's And the only people and the people that benefited from that those early days were the ones that participated in the network,   whether that was expending energy and buying hardware for mining and it might as you could just do it on laptops in the early days.   It was fairly trivial, but, again, there was no real price.   And then I think once Bitcoin had a a mark let's call it a just say market cap as a as as, you know, once it had a significant dollar amount Well, should we mention the moment it did get a price where a guy spent  

[00:29:34] Fundamentals:

Sure. Bought two pizza pies for, what, 16,000 Bitcoin or something like that? Yeah. I think it was 10,000 Bitcoin for two Papa John's pizzas.  

[00:29:42] Jason:

And I don't know every year. Do you know the   the   who requested that to take place? Was that from Satoshi?  

[00:29:51] Fundamentals:

Well, supposedly, not to get too inside, but supposedly, Satoshi   actually was putting actually put a little bit of pressure Yes. On Laszlo.   Because he had he cost Bitcoin. Yeah. He was He was mining GPU. He was he was one of the so he discovered not discover. He's the first one of the first people to figure out that GPUs   could mine Bitcoin much faster than CPUs, and he accumulated   a lot.   And Satoshi,   apparently, was nudge nudge. Like, dude, for the betterment of all of this, it would be great if you could  

[00:30:23] Jason:

distribute some of this stuff. Some of that. Yeah. Yeah. So so that was the first equivalent of of pricing Bitcoin in dollars. It was really That yes. So that gave you a piece of price  

[00:30:34] Fundamentals:

of something like a a few  

[00:30:36] Jason:

Whatever 25 whatever $25   divided by 10,000 is.  

[00:30:41] Fundamentals:

Yeah. Basically, two pizza pies essentially is what the price was. Yeah.   But it's remarkable because,   you know, it's a genesis it's another   genesis moment.   Right?  

[00:30:54] Jason:

So I think I understand the Vitalik story that he was, you know,   I don't know what what online game he was playing where there was some sort of currency, world of work left or something like that. But,   I understand that that he wasn't necessarily incentivized, but I think everything that kinda came later,   Bitcoin had a market.   And a lot of people with a very fiat mindset approached it like, okay. There's a market that's been developed here. I can take a piece of this.  

[00:31:22] Fundamentals:

Right. Well, you have to talk about Silk Road then. That then really put this thing,  

[00:31:27] Jason:

I think, made Yeah. If you wanna go in chronological order, yes. Go ahead. And just that made it  

[00:31:33] Fundamentals:

worldwide   successful. Like, didn't like, that's when now   now Bitcoin is, like,   legit. It's kinda like, you know, Phish when they play the red rocks.   You know? Or like, holy shit. MSG when Phish twelve thirty ninety four was like a defining moment because that's like, oh my god. This band now plays in MSG.   Mhmm. This isn't some this isn't the band just playing at the front,   you know, crushing it in Burlington.   Right?   This is   so, like, Silk Road made Bitcoin a worldwide phenomena and made people realize how   good this currency actually could be. Mhmm. And black markets will always   lead in this area.  

Right?  

[00:32:18] Jason:

Yep.  

[00:32:19] Fundamentals:

So,   okay, so that is all to basically say that   Bitcoin is what it is now. It is decent it is a it is a truly decentralized,   money   protocol.   And the reason why   any of these other coins like Ethereum or XRP or any of these things are absolute scams   okay.   So first of all,   they are they are all pumps they are all pump and dumps. Okay? All of them. And even if they're not, they can be. And,   essentially, if if, you know,   if you're walking around in money and it's like you know they can be a pump and dump, then it is because   you just don't you know, you   the distinction is whether it can be or whether it can't be. Okay? Yeah. People call Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme and they say, oh, well, you know, Michael Sailor just wants you just wants you to buy his Bitcoin.  

Right?   But the reality is nobody really has the ability to just print,   you know, 10 x the supply and sell it after they use their marketing department to pump it. Nobody has the ability to do that.   And every single one of these other coins  

[00:33:43] Jason:

can and does do that. Right. Like, I just had this kinda I pointed this out to a a friend of a friend who was still shitcoining. He's he's in a bit he's, like, 90% Bitcoin, I think. We're trying to get him up to a %.   But he was like, oh, I'm selling all my soul for ETH. And I'm just like, well, that's so, like, so retarded.   And then   because I mean, why would anyway.  

[00:34:06] Fundamentals:

But then the hack happened. The the the Bybit is it was it was The Bybit hack. So there was a hack that recently had this is news, but there's a hack that happened   a week ago   where,   an exchange was hacked and they stole ETH   from it, which, I thought the great analogy I heard was,   shout out Business Cat, my other partner.   Somebody breaking into Fort Knox and stealing toilet paper.  

[00:34:33] Jason:

Right. Right. Right. The I I heard that in your, like, yeah, in your last your last show. That was good.   But,   you know and we're having a conversation over text, and he's like, oh, I what's you know, what is rolling back the chain mean?   And because I guess he was seeing some post referring back to the Dow hack where, you know, where Vitalik was like, stop trading, guys. Like, you know, like, the fact that key moment of my Bitcoin education, by the way. Reading about the DAO hack in the book, The Bitcoin Standard.  

[00:35:05] Fundamentals:

And what happened here   was that,   this Ethereum   exchange got hacked.   A bunch of Ethereum was stolen.   Right?   And, basically,   the heads   the heads of Ethereum got together and said, we will correct it. We will basically   say,   okay. No. Whoever stole it no longer owns it, and we're gonna say that the old owner now owns it. And this is the kind of thing that people think Bitcoin is fucked up, but it's not. Bitcoin's immune to this because Mhmm. Your Bitcoin gets stolen, you're fucked. You're gonna just you're dependent on the kindness of the person who stole it from   you. Right. Which Yeah. There's There is there is precedent for it. It does happen. But, like,   nobody else can decide   to give that Bitcoin back to you other than the per nobody outside of the person who controls the keys Who has it? Can move them, can decide who owns them. And that is you gotta understand, like, that whoever you know, it's just whoever is the owner   is   is the one with the power to move it. That is it. And that's it. And in with Bitcoin,   you, you know, you're operating in an environment where only the people who own keys   have the power to move the keys.  

Whereas in any of these other altcoins, it's some foundation. It's some   executive   always.   And I'm guessing a lot of you guys are like, dude,   I like the fact that   errors can get correct. I think a lot of people like that. Right. Nerf world. Yeah.   But that's not the world that that's that's that's part of the world Bitcoin's trying to solve because it's Right. It's nice if you can correct errors, but it's not nice to empower anyone,   give anyone that kind of power.  

[00:36:47] Jason:

Right. And that's the engineering trade off that Bitcoin   had had designed into it. Was that the only way to to   create a situation where no one would have the ability to manipulate   the users or the current or the currency itself   was to put that responsibility   on the individual   that you are now you are you are a % responsible   Yes. For the security of your money, which is not for everybody, or at least it isn't for everybody. Later, a lot of people that just don't want that. They're not psychologically   ready for that level of responsibility.  

[00:37:24] Fundamentals:

That's right. It's not for everybody. I but you know what, man?   I do think it is   for a lot of I've Yes. I think it's for a lot of fish fans. I do.   Mhmm.   Even though you're all trying to convince me that,   you know,   you want you know, you're all trying to convince me that you're all super progressive,   but I tend to think that there's just   personal responsibility. There are like, I lived through the tape trading days, the tickets by mail.   People love tickets by mail, by the way. That's maybe one of the greatest things we've seen in the past. It was the best.   You know, and knowing that if you, like,   fucking had a stray pen mark on your tickets by mail order, you probably weren't getting any tickets. Or you would think if you didn't get them, that was why. Yeah. Like, you know, yeah. We all it's like, oh, dude. Do not fuck this up. You do not fuck up your ticket by mail. Like, this is the one thing you actually pay attention to. You make sure it's pristine.  

Right?   I do this is why we do this. So we do and this is why, like, I'm spending time   to talk about scams. I'll never mention Ethereum or any of these loser,   ideas   on the show ever again, and we haven't you know, we never talk about the Bitcoin price here. We don't talk about Altcoins. We don't talk about the things   I figured one episode because I I was so,   I I hit such a brick wall on fish.net with that one post   that I realized, like, that we really are up against quite a mountain. I mean, there's a lot more people in Bitcoin that like fish   and that see it for what it is than there are fish fans that see Bitcoin for what it is. Right. Right. That is my sense, and that's why I think and maybe, like, really, this is a fish centered podcast,   but   that is   a   like an unwavering,   you know, it's like an unwavering bridge to Bitcoin.  



[00:39:23] Jason:

Yes.  

[00:39:29] Fundamentals:

So and I I'm, you know, look. I'm convinced because I think Phish has told me themselves  

[00:39:35] Jason:

that this is important and that Right. So And and I'm running with that. I jumped onto your your, coattail as they say. And I'm like, no on board. I'm like, I I I didn't share this experience with you, but you know what? I'm here for it.  

[00:39:51] Fundamentals:

I wanna give you two songs off top of my head right now,   right, that I think directly   reflect cryptography.   K. One was   lonely trip   when words sorry. When doors are all closed tightly with words the only keys,   you'll understand the reason why I'm floating on the breeze.   By the way, the way you manage your own private keys is with a 12 word phrase.   So 12 if you memorize a 12 word sequence, you have control of your Bitcoin.   And that is your Bitcoin. And if you do not have those 12 words, you are not opening that door.   Here's my other song, and I love when I hear it because I forget about it until I hear it. But,   I spoke your name for many days,   pronouncing it in several ways Mhmm. Moving letters all around and substituting   every sound.  



[00:40:48] Jason:

Mhmm.  

[00:40:49] Fundamentals:

That's a guy desperately trying   to figure out his password.   He's trying that is a guy desperately   trying to get his he lost his Bitcoin. He's trying to figure out what it how do I open his door? Yeah. I always think of it like it was like a a pet's name  

[00:41:06] Jason:

and, like, it was some variations. Something yeah. Some passwords. Like, I spoke I spoke your name. You know, you think it's about another human being, but I I always think it's, like, about a pet, and it's, like, some password situation. I agree.  

[00:41:16] Fundamentals:

I can like, for some reason, I only hear, like, cryptography   when I hear those two songs, and I'm sure I could sure I could go on. Right?   So the reason why we do this show and we're six episodes in is because   and it's psychotic.   It's, like, absolutely psychotic. Even Phish fans will say, stop doing this. No. Thank you. We don't want this bullshit.   Mhmm. Take your scam somewhere else. But I actually think Phish, the band, is telling us themselves. They've told us themselves that this is important.   And, here's something I've been meet one little thing I've been meaning to bring up about what we do here.   I've been meaning to bring it up in the last, like, five episodes and never did.  

One of, like, one of the defining moments,   like, of my personal life   is   there was a moment I was list you know, I was older, probably in my late thirties,   but I was listening   to,   I was listening to some 90 '92 fish. This was 1992. It's one of my favorite years.   I think, like, when I I feel like '91 was a really great year. It was like a year they really broke through   with their style. Amy's Farm is one of my favorite shows ever.   Mhmm. '92 is just like a better version of '91, but you got rift and you have, like, some more you know, you really have some more of the songbook. Right? Yeah. And then '93 is just, like, the most expert   version of all of it, and it's, like, the perfect culmination. And in 94, they wipe the extra sketch and they start over   with and then they build to a new level, and they do that every year, '95, '90 '7. It's like the Bitcoin price consolidation period and then, you know, step function.  

Yeah. But in '92, the thing so here's the thing that streak that struck me. Okay. I remember I was sitting in my car.   Yeah. I was   I was, I know where I was too. I was, I was in King Of Prussia driving.   And,   I was listening to just Trey,   you know, Fish doing something in '90   in from '92.   I think the year I experienced this was probably 02/2009 or something like that. Okay. Doesn't really matter.   It was that I was listening to Trey. And so, you know, I've been I was already I was a, you know, fifteen, twenty year   veteran of listening to Phish. So it's weird that it took this long for this thought to occur to me. Okay?  

And this thought did occur to me in many forms, but not like this. It really I think it's because I was at a stage in my life where I was ready to ascend.   And,   I just was like, how   in the fucking hell   was Trey so sure this shit would work?   He has the Did you cut it? Utmost confidence in the most   nonworkable   music, like, for public consumption.   Right?   And you ever think about how   fucking sure he was   that it would work? Like, I would think I was listening to either a foam or a David Bowie or something, like, that was really esoteric   or   stash. It was really esoteric.  

And, you know, I just started thinking about all the years,   all the touring, the fucking 50 shows a year, the grind of these guys, and   the the band the the band trusted Trey   that this was gonna work.  

[00:44:46] Jason:

Right.  

[00:44:48] Fundamentals:

But, like,   '92? You had no idea. In 1992, you had no fucking idea this was gonna work. All you had was your record company   telling you what Blues Traveler was gonna do and what all these other bands were gonna do. It's the spin spin doctors. Spin doctors, bro.   Dude, my aunt worked for, Time Warner, and she used to tell me, yeah, dude. I I she was an executive there. She had nothing to do with the band. She was on the publishing side and and Mhmm. Literature, but she used to be like, yeah. I'm aware. Like, I know how pissed off they are at Fish all the time. Like, why can't they just do something good?   Right. Right. So, like, you can so the conviction   that Trey had   in   himself   and now, clearly   brilliant musician. Clearly,   so, you know, you can have conviction in your own skills as a musician, but he was way beyond that. This was, like,   his thing,  

[00:45:43] Jason:

how how is he god. How is he so fucking sure about that? I mean, we we were talking about it, whether it was right when we started recording it just before,   you know, yeah, you can look at metrics. Right? You can look at data to see how good of a band you are, see where your radio play is, whatever, sales, whatever.   But we don't you let you know, last episode, we focused quite a bit on the idea or maybe it was two episodes prior of that.   Fish Fish's connection to the audience is what makes that is what separates them,   and what what makes them be it's a uniquely different different dynamic and experience.  

So I'm thinking about if I'm if I put myself in Trey's shoes in the late eighties, early nineties, they've been getting feedback from the fans   all the while. Right?   And seeing their audiences grow, and I think   I think just putting Trey in isolation isn't isn't isn't isn't doing   full service to the situation because I think they were getting   better than better than data. They were getting If you think they saw that they would have three night that they would have three night runs at Deer Creek? Listen. I don't know if they had goals like that. We'd have to ask them, but I think they just they just let it ride, and it just naturally just continued to snowball.   And the dead and Jerry dying was a big piece of that.  



[00:47:08] Fundamentals:

It was. Yes. So this is why I mean, this is why I love, like, 92. You can go back. Jerry was not gonna die. No.   Even though he died, like, every other fucking night.   You know, he was nobody was thinking that.  

[00:47:22] Jason:

And they stopped covering the Grateful Dead, right, on with intention because they did not wanna be conflict. They didn't want they wanted to be their own their own thing. But, I mean, look, they're doing a 50 shows a year at places like Mississippi nights and,  

[00:47:35] Fundamentals:

you know, Crest Theater and, you know,   TLA, we'll say.   Mhmm. Where were they in Philly in '92? Yeah. Places like not even like The Tower. Like, probably, like, places like the TLA. Although they didn't play there.   Yeah. I'd have to look and see. Yeah. We'll They didn't play Philly. Philly has a Philly has a,   income tax situation   where,   only the venues that are literally outside of the fucking border of Philly are the ones that got used.   Mhmm. But,   New York, we're talking like Roseland Ballroom,   rooms like that.   Right?  

Yeah. Small rooms. Step up like Irving Plaza. Step up from the wetlands. But, like,   they're certainly not thinking MSG.   No. Right? I don't even think they're thinking worst or Centrum   in a year.  

[00:48:22] Jason:

Agreed.  

[00:48:23] Fundamentals:

Okay. But   but you're still doing this grind.   You are still and, you know, you're writing great music, really inspired. And maybe the inspiration   was enough and you just believe in yourself. But, like, no. I think that in some way,   right, I do think in some way, he really thought it was I think I think he thought it was gonna be just as big as   it was.   Okay. I think he believed that.   Mhmm.   You know?  

[00:48:53] Jason:

That wouldn't surprise me if that was his you know, we all have a vision. Right? I just the same way I'm pretty sure  

[00:49:00] Fundamentals:

he believed that when he went solo, it was gonna be like wings and,   you know And it wasn't. And it and it wasn't. It wasn't, but he believed it. And he put out work Oh, is that it just that   could have easily   been accepted in that way.   Right? He put out   two really high quality albums. I mean, that, like, they're like, I really just strongly implore people to go listen to Trey's two solo albums.   Really,   enough, I would say well, so the first one   called Trey Anastasio, I guess. The second one's called was shine, and then was bar 17. Those are just incredible, incredible works.  

[00:49:38] Jason:

And And the first one I still listen to.  

[00:49:40] Fundamentals:

If it did turn out that it turned out like Wings, you would we would look back and say, well, yeah, because those are great albums. Mhmm.   Wings, by the way, was Paul McCartney's band after the Beatles,   which were great. Wings was incredible. Right? Iconic. Like, absolutely iconic.   I think what I think those three albums are just as good as any of those Wings albums. Like, truly. Oh, %.   Hundred %. But I so I think he believed. I just he always believed. Trey always believed that he was good, that it was all gonna work. And I just want I remember just sitting there in this moment, like, how the fuck really? Did he really like, I just related   to a guy who had conviction  

[00:50:22] Jason:

that no one else had. No one else could possibly have. We'll talk about, like, low, you know, low time preference. The idea of,   focusing and joining the process, not necessarily focusing on the outcome and all this shortsighted behavior that's all around us.   Trey definitely, you know, was ahead of his time as it relates to,   understanding  

[00:50:40] Fundamentals:

what value meant in at least in terms of I you know, it it does take that kind of commitment to,   I think, adopt Bitcoin   as a human being   Mhmm.   And live in the face of   it's very similar to, you know, very similar to what you went through as a fish fan. The whole world is basically telling you, no. This band sucks. The only reason people like it is because of drugs. Mhmm.   This is what they sound like when they're not on drugs.   You know? All these funny videos.   Yeah.   But, like, you know, this is what you know, Bitcoin doesn't have any of that. Right? The only p p you know, they might say the only reason people   like it.  

And then any reason you come up with is gonna be like, yeah. That's makes it it's because it's good.   Like, oh, wait. So two people can trade it without anyone in between   approving it?   I mean and the reality is outside The United States, Bitcoin is huge.   Right? It's like the inversion of fish.   You know, fish was only big in The US and didn't nobody really cared about it outside. Bitcoin is is needed   desperately in Uganda because of what the US government is doing   to its currency.   Because Yeah. It's, you know, it's   so these other countries, it's like the the highest adoption in the world, I think, is Nigeria.  

Yeah. And, you know, there's a reason why El Salvador was is in countries like that are the ones that are really going all in.   But what you but it's still, like, anybody anybody of who has a reputation   who gets into Bitcoin,   there's gonna be stories published. But anytime it goes down, you'll see   cover of probably the cover of some magazine. This guy lost $6,000,000,000   in a day.   You know? And they're always gonna get attacked.  

[00:52:29] Jason:

Right. And And it could be any coin and the the, you know, a journalist none the wiser would just oh, this this type of Bitcoin got hacked. You know what I mean? Everything Yeah. Everything everything gets attached to Bitcoin indirectly or directly. So I'm gonna issue a retraction now. I don't I don't normally do this in a single episode,  

[00:52:48] Fundamentals:

but I was wrong.   Dude, we were wrong. We missed something. What did we miss?   So   we missed the fact that so, it god.   I almost don't know what to do because we're so fucking wrong.   We actually were wrong about Phish never being attacked.   Okay.   The record company at some point in time, I think the industry   decided I think they did decide to attack Phish.   I think the industry   when they realized   that Phish was never gonna give them what they wanted,   they cast then that's when they I believe there was propaganda.   I can't think of any specific instances,   really.  



[00:53:29] Jason:

Yeah.  

[00:53:30] Fundamentals:

But I believe that  

[00:53:32] Jason:

probably Well, they could've been blackballed. They could've been blackballed. Within the industry, it was ugly.   Yeah. And who was their label? Was it Giffen? Giffen?   Was that their original?   Oh, Elektra. Sorry. Sorry. Yep. Yep.  

[00:53:45] Fundamentals:

And I think they were good to them. Elektra suppose Elektra was pretty good to them, supposedly.   They made some good albums, and they got them Steve Lillywhite.  

[00:53:53] Jason:

Yeah. To  

[00:53:55] Fundamentals:

do I don't know if that was with Elektra still or they had Oh, that was Billy Breeze? He he produced Billy Breeze? That was Billy Breeze. Yeah. And then guess what? They brought him they brought him back for joy,  

[00:54:05] Jason:

Lillywhite. Oh, I didn't know that. Because I know they they typically they don't They've had a lot of unique unique producers for for most albums. It's just a one off, which is kinda cool.  

[00:54:15] Fundamentals:

Steve Lily White,   you you wanna talk about his credits?   Oh, if you want. Did he I mean, what was his big one?   Oh, you tell me. I thought it was dark side. No. Not dark side. He he did some   Or some legendary album. Just gonna look it up real quick just because Sure. Wow. So that I don't have to issue another fucking retraction of how long I am.   Just Steve will Lily White discography.   So let's see here.   I mean, he's got a he has a ton of credits. I'm just screw dude, it's got Yeah. It's like so much. Thousands of fucking singles here. I can't even   I can't even scan this.  



[00:55:12] Jason:

But he's prolific, it sounds like. Absolutely prolific.  

[00:55:17] Fundamentals:

Give me a second here. I'm gonna just go to Wikipedia. We just we just grinded this podcast to a screeching halt.  

[00:55:24] Jason:

But I don't think we were that wrong about Fish not getting attacked. I mean I mean, you are right, but it wasn't it wasn't overt.  

[00:55:31] Fundamentals:

You get all of Dave Matthews' hits.   Well, then We did some stuff for you too. No. But there was something really I thought really significant.  

[00:55:40] Jason:

Like a thought like a like a dark side of you. Like something along that something on that level. Yeah. On that level. Yeah.  

[00:55:47] Fundamentals:

And I'm just there's just so much to scroll through. Yeah. It's like an IMDB.   Talking heads, naked.   Yeah. There's just he did a lot of YouTube's   albums.  

[00:55:59] Jason:

Okay.   Well, Joshua Tree, if you did that, a  

[00:56:03] Fundamentals:

cool event. Some songs on the Joshua Tree. Okay. Okay.   So I didn't mean to I didn't mean to derail us. No. No. But he's,   So sorry that to to say Dark Side of the Moon It's ridiculous. But,   Stephen Lilly White was a prolific producer. Did Billy Breathes, and they want them. And then they, so I think Elektra got them   him, and then he he was the one they wanted for Joy.  

[00:56:32] Jason:

Mhmm.  

[00:56:33] Fundamentals:

Right? And Joy was just utterly the one of the most   we'll have to get to we'll have to do a thing on Joy strictly.  

[00:56:41] Jason:

And I need to do some preparation before that episode. So give me a heads up because I I wanna,   I've never   you know, I said when we first started recording these things, like, I I didn't   my nature would be to research all of your content to be prepared.   But then I was like, that kind of isn't  

[00:56:59] Fundamentals:

doesn't Yeah. We'll prepare for that one. That's so special. That one, I need to I need to listen to I don't think I've listened to that album in its entirety, at least not front to back. But maybe the way I'll land this plane is to say, I think I think, like, one of the most underrated things that Fish ever did was leave in '20 in 02/2004.   And when I say underrated, I mean, like, that is, like, really part of the script they weren't supposed to flip. Like, they were just supposed to keep going and then   have people die and just have it end have it end the way it did for the dead. Yeah. That really was what should've happened.  

It took a lot of, like,   intestinal fortitude   to make the decision they made and to leave. And when I say so intestinal fortitude is this word conviction is something that   comes up a lot in Bitcoin. It comes up a lot in any community   that's trying to build something that's brand new, that's trying to do something that was otherwise done by humans for tens of thousands of years and now is all of a sudden trying to do something brand new. And I think look. In a very shallow way, Fish did that musically.   Mhmm. In a much shallower way. Right? Not shallow for us because we love it and what they did for our lives, but they didn't   really transform society.  

Yeah. They didn't solve a problem. By what level? I guess there wasn't a there I mean I disagree with that because the problem was that the problem was nobody got no band,   You know, no band made it unless they kiss the ring.   Right. Right? Unless they I'd watch this YouTube video about Huey Lewis.   Okay. Yeah. They solved it. They solved a problem for themselves. But they Huey Lewis, I was thinking about I I watched this on Huey Lewis because Huey Lewis is a guy that,   if you're an unfreeze McGee fan, they call him uncle Huey. Mhmm. Yeah. Huey I mean, if he grew up in the eighties, dude, he had a billion hits. He was he was larger than life. And every time he But he was legit. He was legit, and he he'll play yeah. He goes on tour. He'll play he'll show up at shows with Humphries McGee, play harmonica.   He won't try to steal the spotlight from them. He's, like, legitly just wants to be part of it. But he what he was saying was, like, he was a bar band,   but you weren't gonna make it unless you just pointed he he said, basically, we we went to the studio and tried to point 10 songs to the radio just so that we can have one that they'll get off our back. And then they all they all worked. They they were all hits. Yeah. And,   that's what you had to do. And the thing was like about Phish. That was the problem Phish, I believe, did solve. And I think Phish made it possible for its jam band scene and a bunch of bands to exist that never has to do that. They never had to do that. That's a that's a good point. Umfries Magee, Strang Chi's incident, these bands never have to show up and say, you know what? We gotta point a couple songs at the radio. And who knows what songs we've gotten because they've never had to put their attention on that. I mean, frankly, right, it's just wrong. It diluted the art.  

And I so but it is shallow it's still shallower than, you know, we're gonna actually change the incentives of money. Yeah. And we're gonna make it possible. It's it's a   I think shallow is the wrong word. It's a small scale. It's like very small scale.  

[01:00:04] Jason:

Lower impact. Right? It's a it's a yeah. Mhmm. But, you know, so it's  

[01:00:10] Fundamentals:

I hate to call shallow because it's such as it was the fact is they were the only band that ever successfully did it took everything.  

[01:00:16] Jason:

And it took and it took courage to to try Yeah. To even try. It literally took everything and it probably cost them  

[01:00:22] Fundamentals:

a ton, like, more than we realize.   But they would like, you know, look. Bitcoin has people who were willing to still like, not everybody goes into shit coins. Not everybody gambles just because they're incentivized to. People still have strong there's still people, like, with strong values   that will save in   cash and watch it dwindle, but they're unwilling to engage in scams.   Mhmm. And, you know, I think fish   are a group of guys with really strong values.   And, again, one of the reasons we do this is because I think they deserve better   than to get now drowned out   in what's probably coming in the next twenty years.  

Right? This really age of now aggressive money printing is going to we get like, do they have another trick in their freaking bag?   Really? To that that's what I wonder. Right? Like   so I wanted to point out that I do think they had really strong character, and I think leaving in 02/2004   was   took a lot of character.   Mhmm.   And it took a lot of conviction that   they were gonna be okay.   Right.   Because nothing   there was, again, nothing in the world suggesting they were gonna be okay at that time. Yep.   And I'd say, look. Now the fact that they're even in a look. The fact that they're where they are now,   when I when I think of the song catalog they have now, I think it's I've rarely listened to 1992   anymore   just because of the lack of songbook.  

Right?   Right.   I mean, it's just   I have to be really in the mood to go back to '91 or '92   to you know, and not hear songs   you know, there's so many great songs just that they put out this past year Yep. That, like, I wanna I wanna hear.   Mhmm. Right? It's true. I don't even wanna go back to '95.   Right. I'm I'm not sorry. I meant I meant '15. I do this all the time. Screw that up all the time. Oh, okay. I don't even wanna go back to 15.   90 five, you go back to because there's, like, a special level of jamming that you that you hear, and it's remarkable. But, like, going back to 15 and you don't have,   you know, you know, any any of what they put out in the last five years, which is, like, stuff I kinda treasure.  

Mhmm. So what I mean, this just all goes to say, like so them leaving in 02/2004 made it possible   for us to sit here in 2025 and say, I don't even wanna go back to 2015   because of all the great music they've written since then. Right. And that took a ton of conviction   in 02/2004   to make a very, very, very hard decision.   Right? Yeah. Maybe this is where we leave it and we do the joy thing next week.  

[01:03:06] Jason:

We can do that.   We do that. And can I just point out one thing as it relates to what you just described to me?   When Phish broke up   or temporarily, because I don't know if they ever said break up. They were just like the idea was that they were gonna get back together at some point. At least that's what everybody hoped.  

[01:03:24] Fundamentals:

It's what everybody hoped, but there was permanent hiatus. Dude, I sat there Yeah. I sat there,   I sat there a quarter of a mile from the entrance to Coventry.   Okay?   Mhmm. Listening to the announcement.   Right. Right. The two words that ring out are we're done.  

[01:03:41] Jason:

Okay.   Go home. And it was it was really and I understand things were really bad, and I did not go to COVID. I I   I, unfortunately, didn't go. But   for people that went, I think I wasn't experienced, and I don't think people regret going. But it was a lot. And there was the mud and the water. But the there was no idea  

[01:03:58] Fundamentals:

that they were coming back.  

[01:04:00] Jason:

Okay. I can it's it's important to make that clear. Because in my mind, it's hard to remember what I was thinking then. And it made it surreal. They are back. Yeah. It made it actually quite surreal. And all the crying that went on in Coventry was Mhmm. Just, I think, over the fact that  

[01:04:14] Fundamentals:

it it was final.  

[01:04:16] Jason:

Yeah. Okay. I guess the point I was trying to make is,   one, like, people like me that have been to maybe a dozen shows pre   pre the breakup,   you know, when they were gone, it was like I don't wanna kinda say it was, like, you know, analogous to scarcity, but   you you gain an appreciation. Like, you like, you don't know what you got told it's gone type of thing. Mhmm. And   Cinderella.   Yeah. I that was that was that was that was what I was   good catch. That's what I was referencing.   But,   people like people like me, I searched for other bands during that time period when they weren't around, and nothing   stacked up.  

Yep. You know what I mean? So they it did like, they gave everybody an opportunity. And so so there was an appreciation of, like, no. This is there is something special about about them. It's not the scene. It's not the drugs. It's not the I got really bad reviews though. I'll have to say. Oh, and you know what? When, Trey toured with with the Grab tour, it was pretty cool.  

[01:05:15] Fundamentals:

I don't know that one. I don't know that one. So that's Gordon Russo and Avento   and Anastacio.  

[01:05:22] Jason:

Oh, no. No. I remember that. I because because I know Mike played with them quite a bit. Right?  

[01:05:26] Fundamentals:

Yeah. So that's when, you know, we found out about all these these cool bands.   Benavento Russo do, Oh, yeah. I discovered a lot of cool shit, but nothing was Nothing on the level. Came back. Yes. Nothing on the same level. Nothing that, like, you were gonna plan your life around and that your friends from all over the country were gonna now hijack all of their family's vacations to   nothing like that. Let's select. Right? That's the distinction we should make clear. Right? Yeah. Nothing Yeah. Nothing has come up since.   I've tried. Like, I tried to get my friends to go to and,   because I did think Humphrey's was worth there was a time where I actually did think Humphrey's McGee was worth doing that and building building part of our my friendships around, but I just couldn't get any other friends to really do it.  



[01:06:11] Jason:

Hardest working band maybe of all time, Onfreeze McGee.   If you look at their show count, it's it's unbelievable.  

[01:06:18] Fundamentals:

And, you know, they started in a Deer Creek parking lot in '98.  

[01:06:24] Jason:

Impressive.  

[01:06:27] Fundamentals:

So you wanna close that point? Yeah.  

[01:06:30] Jason:

No. I just wanted to point that out that that was, like, similar to,   how all coins, you know, are trying to stack up against Bitcoin like that. Yeah. I would I would personally wouldn't compare  

[01:06:41] Fundamentals:

the other bands to all coins. I would just say there really is one. I didn't say shit coin. I didn't say shit coin. There is no second best. There is no second best. That's right. Fish it's not it's not Fish's fault that they're that that they're so that they really are so good.   That they're so I mean,   there's some there are a lot of good bands. Like, one of my favorite bands now is, like, Talk. I love I love that band.   Mhmm. You know, these are great these are great bands, but they're not gonna have the broad they're just not gonna have the impact that Fish does. It's not Fish's fault that they just have that reach. And so there's a reason why   Fish's lyrics dating back to 1983   are worth   studying because they were meant to reach these people   in a way that the rest of these bands were not meant to. And I think that's,   you know, maybe that's really cool too. I like it.