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Fundamentals
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READ THE BOOK: https://zeuspay.com/btc-for-institutions

Jason
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READ THE FCKING BOOK!!^^ 

Intro and Backing Music:  Gamehendge - Phish 03/22/1993, Sacramento, CA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7norcHLFPmI
Outro:  Possum - Phish 07/22/1993 Stowe, VT https://relisten.net/phish/1993/07/22/possum-7037?source=162641

*Gamehendge NYE 4K Video* - Phish 12/31/2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSO6H7e-Gm0

Other Mentions:
Fundamentals of Plebslop and Purity Tests - Magic Internet Math https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSB34273u2Y
Back on the Chain Podcast - BotC02: Bitcoin Fixes Gamehendge  https://fountain.fm/episode/cPeFzzYLBpLVJgXj7ozy 

In this episode, we riff on Phish lore, time warps, and the art of staying synced—onstage and in life. We open with a vivid retelling of Gamehendge, tracing Trey’s senior thesis tale from Tela and Colonel Forbin to Wilson, Icculus, and the Helping Phriendly Book, then connect those themes to present-day Bitcoin drama and network governance—through the lens of futile revolutions, purity tests, and signal vs narrative. We trade stories from Prague, jet lag battles, and UTC dreams, then dive deep on Rick Rubin’s new interview with Mike Gordon: factions in the band, Machine Gun Trey’s evolution, Page’s essential steadiness, in-ear monitor taboos, and why Mike might be the most fascinating voice we rarely hear. Along the way: Phil Jackson / Rick Rubin parallels, Wu-Tang love, MSG lore, and a remembrance of Coventry’s muddy purgatory—before closing on possums, honey badgers, and why betting markets might be the real mountain to Icculus.

Whether you’re here for Phish history, Bitcoin meta, or just a good syncopated hang, this one blends story, music nerdery, and cultural critique—no sponsors, just vibes.

[00:00:07] Unknown:

This point in time here, if you guys can come with us, we're gonna kind of take you to another place and tell you a little story.   Okay. This story takes place, just doing this because I haven't had such a a great, attentive,   quiet audience in such a long time, years. So I wanna tell you guys this story here.   Okay. What we were just singing about there in that last song here is this thing where the guy is skating out in the middle of the ice. And he's sort of attached to his mirror image on the ice. And he starts to have a a battle with his mirror image. And his mirror image reaches up and is trying to drag him down into the ice. And right now we're kind of sunk down into the ice below the ice. And down in this ice here, we're gonna kind of travel down into a different land. Now if you come with me, please, and kind of picture   off in the distance here. Here, a green field stretching off in the distance,   and the forest   rising up over that way, and a mountain coming up out of the forest.  

And this is a place called Gamehenge.   So   So if you can imagine that we're all there there there now.   For thousands of years, millions of years, eons, Gamehenge was one of the most peaceful and beautiful places in the universe.   People lived in, peace and harmony with nature. And these people were called the lizard people. And everything was great. They had a God that they prayed to that lived up on top of the mountain and his name was the great and knowledgeable Ikyulys.   Now Ikyulys had written this book for the people. And it was called the Helping Friendly Book. And it had been written so long ago that no one could even remember. It had been around forever. And the book sort of   gave them their their,   reason for being. And it told them how to stay in peace with nature and peace with the trees and the land and everything. So like I said for eons, thousands of years, everything was great. They were living in beautiful harmony.  

Eventually one day this traveler came along. And he came from a sort of a later time. And he came along and he saw all these innocent people. And since he had already been corrupted by, you know, society and everything outside of this this little community,   he, saw the potential for enslaving these people and using them for power. So what he did was he stole the book from them. And he built a castle, cut down all the trees and built this huge castle that, that raised out of the forest.   He hid the book in the highest tower in the castle and, declared himself king. And without the book these, these people were pretty much helpless. So he enslaved them and gained a lot of power from this.   Now one day in another sort of part of the universe,   there was this guy named Colonel Foreman.  

And,   unbeknownst to him, he was shaving in his mirror one day and everything was cool, but his life was kinda He was older, he's a retired colonel, his life was kind of going nowhere. He's walking his dog out there one day. McGrawp. McGrawp, the watchful dog. And, as he's walking along, he's kind of going over the crest of this hill and and he sees this sort of,   it's sort of a just in the air. There's a little bit of a,   imaging thing here. Things kind of swirling around and it caught his curiosity.   And, so he walked towards it,   came up to the snake. And as he got to it, he stepped through.  

And he found himself   in a corridor   that was leading as far as the eye could see down to a tiny pinpoint of light.   At this point,   he sings this little song.  

[00:03:36] Unknown:

And we're back on the chain. Back on the chain.   It's good to be back, man.  

[00:03:44] Unknown:

What can I say? It took us a while.   And,   Feels like for you for you, space time has been, manipulated by your circumstances.  

[00:03:55] Unknown:

I definitely went through some warps   some warps of time.   You know what? The one thing I wish I did so I went to Prague   and   I had this stupid idea that I should go find this fucking   arena they played in.   That legendary show, I believe, of '96.  

[00:04:15] Unknown:

It was, it was it was '98.   But, yes, I know the show.  

[00:04:20] Unknown:

Yes. Europe? The '90 It was '98?  

[00:04:22] Unknown:

Prague with the famous ghost. That's the right underneath this movie. And the club was and the club was subterranean by, like, a couple stories. Out later. We're not looking this up. Yeah. Fuck it. I believe you. July. But it doesn't feel it doesn't feel right. But, you know, I always think I'm right.  

[00:04:39] Unknown:

But I didn't think they were in Europe in '98. I didn't think they were there in '98.  

[00:04:44] Unknown:

He lifted up his visor.  

[00:04:46] Unknown:

We've we've been through this a few times, and, I won't believe that.  

[00:04:50] Unknown:

I just ignore the fucking reality every single night.   So That feels about right. Yeah.   I I tend to do that.   Alright. Well, I had a stupid idea. I was like, should I look for this place?   I had, like, literally, like,   one morning to walk around and I just   this is what I did, you know? Yeah. And  

[00:05:14] Unknown:

what was the, what were your results?  

[00:05:18] Unknown:

We went to this,   the fuck was it called? Second culture? Like, we went to this place that   had some I hate I guess it used to be cool and had Bitcoin events and   was, like, supposedly you can pay in Bitcoin   at this place. And we went we went to get coffee and   we asked about paying in Bitcoin and the person   the woman there had no fucking idea what we were talking about or what to do.   So, you know,   it is what it yeah. You know, they had all this swag there. It looked like yeah. It definitely looked like a   it looked like the place that was advertised. It's just that person there had no fucking clue. Right.   What Bitcoin was. Like, they just, you know, they're they're just sling of coffee.  



[00:06:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:06:08] Unknown:

You know? So that was what we did.   Yeah. Literally, we had one morning   to not you know what I mean? Just to be free. Yeah. Understood.  

[00:06:16] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:06:18] Unknown:

But, It was a great time. It was a really great time now. I have to say Yeah. It's I'm feeling it now. Pretty  

[00:06:25] Unknown:

pretty fucking. Pretty tired. You said you were up at, 03:30 local time this morning? I tuned up. Yeah. Been getting up at 03:30 or 04:00  

[00:06:33] Unknown:

daily. I thought I'd beat it. Like, I you know, because I got home   I got home on Wednesday. It was such a long day, dude, but I got home   at, like, 10PM.   So I was like, shit, dude. I might have I maybe I won this thing. Right? Yeah.   And, like, the next morning, I got up at four.   Like, you know when you just get up at four and you just to the floor It's not gonna happen. Like, you know Right. You're done. You're up. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, alright. Whatever. We just had we just had time change.   It'll get better. It has not gotten better.  

[00:07:07] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm still feeling the time change, and that was only an hour. And it was like a couple of weeks. Was that last week and the week before? Yeah. But   I had too many Time space. Time space. There should be one universal time. I like I like UTC. I think we should all just go go   to that. Adjusting cooling. Metric system people?   No. Just time.   Like, because time because time isn't real.  

[00:07:30] Unknown:

You know, it's just not There's just something that's not real.   Like, back on the chain   feels like syncing up in time.   And back on the train,   the song feels like syncing up in time because trains are known for being on time for things all. Right? That's right.   Maybe we're doing maybe we're syncing in time now by doing this. I didn't want to. I was like,   just didn't wanna do it tonight.  

[00:07:55] Unknown:

I I've I've, I pushed through similar resistance. But, you know, when I caught the I caught the first two two minutes of RPB,   for those not in the know, Rock Paper Bitcoin, Fundamentals   primary podcast.   I felt,   immediately,   not   I was gonna say obligated, and that's not fair. I felt compelled   to do this rip with you tonight.  

[00:08:19] Unknown:

Based on something that we're saying. Disappointing if I don't would it be disappointing   if I don't wanna do it on the thing that you heard?  

[00:08:27] Unknown:

It would be. That we just come up with another thing to talk about tonight? It it it would   disappoint I think I I if if I were to say I wouldn't be disappointed,  

[00:08:36] Unknown:

at least partially, I'd be lying. So Okay. I'm open to I'm open to covering it and talking about it. Okay.  

[00:08:43] Unknown:

This is the the this is your brainchild, by the way. I understand. So   So I'm gonna give you I also need to give you carte blanche to do with it what you will.  

[00:08:52] Unknown:

Understand. I don't I mean, we if we wanna have fun with it, we can.   I   you know what I really wanna fucking talk about right now?   Hit me. I wanna talk about the,   Mike Gordon interview with Rick Rubin.  

[00:09:06] Unknown:

Well, see, I haven't listened to that yet,   which is Like That's a shame because I will listen to it. Well, let's talk about it. Gotten to it.  

[00:09:13] Unknown:

Let's talk about how can I talk about it? Yeah. No. But I don't Educate me in all The idea of it. I mean, I can't put the idea of it. I don't need to talk about details. I'm gonna maybe motivate you to listen to it.  

[00:09:25] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:09:26] Unknown:

I I'm not aware   of an interview with Mike at all   in, like, the history at all of the band. Like, nothing that I know about Phish has   been informed by an interview with Mike.  

[00:09:40] Unknown:

Interesting.   I mean, am I wrong about this? Am I like The well, the only the only what I would call interview style   content that I've consumed a lot of with Mike is when they do the, the rig the rig tear downs at MSG typically. And they do them like every four or five years.  

[00:09:57] Unknown:

Yeah. But they don't ask them like Yeah. You know, what was it like in, what what was it like when you joined the band? Right. That's a really good point.   You know, and this was like Rick Rubin, dude. This was like I know. No. I I imagine. At the time at the time, you know, like, what had his finger as much on the pulse of   what Phish was trying not to be for, you   know, but still like he's like you talk about a, you know, just to force some guy that understands music and who can pull up an interview with   a legend,   you know, like, such an accomplished musician as Mike Gordon.  



[00:10:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. Like, Rick Rubin is the is the Phil Jackson of the music industry.  

[00:10:38] Unknown:

You say you know, it's funny you say that because the last the only other   the only other podcast that was recommended in my feed with Rick Rubin was Phil Jackson.   And I was sitting there thinking of I was thinking about how the fact that they're both they're they're like similar types of people. Yes. They're both very zen, although they don't talk about it directly a lot.   But they're clearly It's kind of a gay nickname to to be the zen master. That's sort of a yeah. It was. So he yeah. Phil never leaned into that.   Another good decision, good intuition on his part. Yeah. Like, if other people have to call you this, I guess that's okay. But you don't call that you don't call yourself that. No. Exactly.  



[00:11:17] Unknown:

And clearly, they both I have a love hate. They both meditate a lot. Although, I'm sure they have other religious,  

[00:11:22] Unknown:

affiliations. But go ahead. I have a love hate relationship with Phil Jackson   and,   you know, his worst   if I'm gonna connect Phil Jackson to Fish in some way,   it's that his worst part of his career was when he was with the Knicks who play at Madison Square Garden.  

[00:11:42] Unknown:

A lot of people forget he even he ever coached the Knicks.  

[00:11:45] Unknown:

He didn't coach them. He was, like, the president and the executive. Oh, it was it was after the Bulls. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Just didn't do well, no. He went to the Lakers and coached Kobe and Shaq   after the Bulls.  

[00:11:57] Unknown:

So this was This is wild. Wait. So what was his role? He he wasn't the head coach of the Knicks? He was like the, you know, like the president,  

[00:12:04] Unknown:

you know, like the   the president of whatever.  

[00:12:09] Unknown:

Like, my guy making all the personnel decisions. Yeah. I understand. But typically, coaches don't go in the opposite direction. They don't go from president to coach again.  

[00:12:18] Unknown:

No. No. So he didn't go from that direction. He wanted to retire and the Knicks just just made him an offer he couldn't refuse and he's like, fine.   You know? He was done coaching. Right? So he had his stint with the Bulls. You know what's interesting, by the way? Twice between. Okay. I got it.   Not that this is a basketball   podcast, but,   you know, when he got hired by the Bulls, okay, I wanna say it was, like, 1989.   And,   the Bulls had a pretty good coach. His name was Doug Collins, who was a really good player   for the 76ers.  

Like, really, you know, like a borderline hall of famer but not white. Right.   Well known   for his performance in the Olympics, and he was, like, number one overall I mean, he was, like, very good player and very good coach, and he was coaching Michael Jordan, but,   you know, the story got the story is they got you know, they booted him out, brought Phil Jackson in.   But at the time, in '89, the Knicks were looking for a new head coach, and Phil Jag nobody   like, I don't know. Everyone's like this guy, Phil Jackson, who, like, was a nobody.   I mean, he was on the Knicks championship teams in '70 and '73, but he was, like, a bench player. Yeah. So it was like, who fucking Phil Jack? Like, they had Rick Pitino who, like, everybody knew and loved.  

And, you know, they didn't get him. They got Stu Jackson.   Fucking Stu Jackson instead of Phil Jackson.   Phil Jackson goes to the Bulls and, you know, the rest is history there. Fucking six runs there, then he goes and coaches   Shaq and Kobe, five runs there. Right. And then he comes to the Knicks and just doesn't you know, he fucking kicks his feet up.   And basically, James Dolan, you know, the fact that James Dolan   has a,   the best thing about him is his relationship with Fish.   They love him, and he loves they, like, they literally love each other.   This guy, James Dolan, could barely walk around New York City because Knicks fans hate him so much. He's so he's so, like, destructive   to Knicks, made him so bad.  

But, like, he has this redeeming quality because,   his relationship with the band Phish is excellent,   and Phish is the one   band that comes to Madison Square Garden and crushes every time for its fans.   Right. Phish has a banner in Madison Square Garden.   Right. Right? And Phish was the second band to play at the Sphere.   So Mhmm. You know, little redemption story, but it's funny you'd connected Phil Jackson to  

[00:14:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, they're just similar personas, and they're both, like, understated,   not,   the biggest self promoters in the world, and they're just, like have this confident presence about them   that's undeniable if you ever really witness them in in action.   And I got into Rick's Who pocket? Rick's,   Telegramatron. Right? Is the name of it? I got into that podcast.  

[00:15:10] Unknown:

Tetra. Tetra gram Tetra gram Grammatron. Grammatron.  

[00:15:15] Unknown:

Because Tetragrammatron.  

[00:15:16] Unknown:

Cool podcast, I have to say. Cool aesthetic.  

[00:15:20] Unknown:

Yes. And this ties back to, yeah, the aesthetic with the cutaways, like the throwback kinda commercial style interludes.   Very interesting. And that was from the beginning. Yes. So I got turned on to the when this podcast was just being kind of there was a buzz that it was gonna be released soon was funny enough Jack.   Through Jack Crews. Yeah.   So Jack Crews no. I just wanna mention Jack Crews was in our I remember. I remember. I remember that episode with Eminem Huberman.   Right. But he was talking about the the this was, like, in the works for months before they ripped it. And even before Rick released the pie the first episode of the podcast, he was alluding to Rick's coming out with this. We've been talking. Hopefully, I'm gonna get in and   do six he did, like, what, six hours with him or something crazy like that?  

But anyway insane. Yeah. Yeah.   That's all I wanted to say about Jack.  

[00:16:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Jack's   really,   he slings a lot of play up slop. You know?  

[00:16:18] Unknown:

He's a boomer. He's a boomer Bitcoiner, man. He'll turn through.  

[00:16:24] Unknown:

Yeah. He came up today.   One of her friends is   one of her friends has a relationship with him   and was,   you know, considering   taking the trip to El Salvador to do some podcast ripping with him. And I   I basically said I'd be into it if he unblock me only.   Like, I'm not having another Larry Lipard situation where I   I I cross a country's border   with the expectation of doing a podcast, and I'm sitting there worried that he's gonna remember that he blocks me and, you know, something bad is gonna happen.  

[00:16:59] Unknown:

Right.   Now I understand your sensitivities there.  

[00:17:03] Unknown:

It's my stipulation.  

[00:17:05] Unknown:

Now I'm not fucking around, you know. I don't think I don't I don't know how successful you're gonna be making demands, but I wanna keep me updated.   He's a pretty Yeah. He's a pretty I just wanna mind guy.  

[00:17:17] Unknown:

I wanna think of this conversation   that that, like, you know, there's just one thing. You have this guy blocked   and, you know, he knows more about you than literally anybody in the Bitcoin space. Okay? Like, he's been reading your blog longer   Yes. And knows more about you than fucking anybody. And you haven't blocked for some fucking reason. And,   you know, he'd be a big asset to this conversation, but he's not coming he's not coming unless you just, like, unblock him. He needs to know he needs to know Rakudel a lot. Yes. That would be a really good podcast episode, by the way. I think I I can put two and two together, but,  

[00:17:53] Unknown:

and Jack is I know not directly, but through, you know, a mutual friend   who visited him. He's incredibly gracious.   Like, he'll host told me he'll he's just a really nice, generous guy at the end of the day, although, you know, you might not see that in his tweets or whatever the fuck. No. I respect Jack. I don't he I don't look at him the way I look at Larry,  

[00:18:15] Unknown:

you know. Yeah. I respect Larry a little bit.   Like based on my personal interaction with him.   So,   anyway,   Rick Rubin   interviewing Mike Gordon and it's like a,   it's really like getting a brand new it's like getting a new book   or something like that. Because it's like, you know, Gordon,   a, he's really thoughtful. Right? Mhmm. Yep. He's really thoughtful and introspective. He's probably the least   drug user   of anyone   associated with the band,  

[00:18:52] Unknown:

let alone the band. Really? He talks about it. I always thought Paige was the most straight edge. Are you telling me what do you know about Paige? Paige was a cocaine monster.   Really?   Yes. I did not know that.  

[00:19:04] Unknown:

I'm about I'm being interrupted, but disrespectfully   at the moment.   But, yeah. No. Paige was a,   oh, yeah. He he was like, he may have been the biggest drug addict in the band. Are you serious?  

[00:19:21] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm blown away by this. I'm blown away by this.  

[00:19:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Interesting choice of words there.   Still good. You know this? Dude, you like, look at his look at his, like   he looks like that guy. He looks like the cocaine addict from the eighties. Like, everyone with their the hair and the bald the big bald spot.   You know?  

[00:19:46] Unknown:

He doesn't look like that. Right? Yeah. I mean, if there was a Muppet that did a lot of cocaine, it would look like Paige. So I get now everything's coming together for me.  

[00:19:57] Unknown:

Yeah.   It was one of those things where people were saying, like, you know, Trey almost, like, took it for the team by being the center of attention   of his drug problem.  

[00:20:08] Unknown:

Really? Ah, wow. See. I didn't have my finger my ear to the my ear to the ground on that during that time period. Fish's thing yeah. Fish's thing was a boom. Like, Fish had issue with, you know Fish.   Yep.  

[00:20:22] Unknown:

Mike, like,   he he basically said he had, like, three experiences during the show   where he either ate   too much weed brownie and, like,   couldn't fucking  

[00:20:35] Unknown:

stand. Right. You know? I've heard that. Yeah.  

[00:20:38] Unknown:

And that was so like And and then he did, like, he did, like, a mushroom thing at one point. I I I No. He says he's never actually done psychedelics and that he he looks forward to   it. He's looking forward to some some planned,   like, very planned experiences.  

[00:20:54] Unknown:

Never done psychedelics  

[00:20:55] Unknown:

at Blue's Sporting too. That Blue this is Yeah. Because he's seemingly the most artistic, like, member of the band. Right?   Exactly.  

[00:21:07] Unknown:

Exactly. And, you know, you just said a couple episodes ago how   you would love to, like, hear Mike talk this is before we knew about this interview with Ruben.   I said it. Do you remember this? It was, like, a couple episodes ago. You were you were commenting about how Mike would be the most interesting,   like, out of the ordinary perspectives on, like, any given topic. Hold on a sec. I'm sorry. Mhmm. I got I have to pause.  

[00:21:35] Unknown:

Really sorry. I gotta pause.   Okay. So   it's so funny, man. It's like two podcast episodes in a row. I had to, like,   I think it's three. I had to literally stop in the middle of it   just   because I was, you know, it's weird how things happen. Right? Like people in the middle of it don't know. They don't know I'm just doing a podcast. Right? My daughter will call me from college in the middle of podcast. I'm like, well, I have to get it.   Yeah. So,   okay. So we're talking about Mike.  

[00:22:06] Unknown:

Yeah. How weird Mike is?  

[00:22:10] Unknown:

Mike was a guy we wanna hear hear from because although, you know, the one really interesting thing about him other than the fact that he's, like, not yet the least drug user   Mhmm.   Supposedly.   He was the one guy who didn't wanna quit   when in o four.  

[00:22:26] Unknown:

And he talked about that. I remember the implication of that. And even in the even in the the letter that that the band wrote to the fans,   that, you know, that it was a not everyone agreed on this, basically, was the implication.  

[00:22:40] Unknown:

He was   he was the only one who really didn't have a problem with   drugs   or anything,   and he felt like he was becoming a much better musician. He felt the band was great,   and he wanted to keep going. And he was he told the story about how the fans made a shirt that said Mike said no.   Yeah. And I didn't realize this either, but, like, he didn't wanna come back.   So   Oh, wow.   He I mean, he I guess, like, I was the same like, dude, I remember I remember being literally on the road, like, a mile from Coventry.   Right?   Mhmm. Being told to go home and saying no. Obviously, it's not fuck bad. Right? Being told to go home.  

And I remember, you know, dude, it's bumper to bumper traffic. So, like, when I it it was beyond traffic. Like, there was so much traffic. Like, nobody was even in their cars. We were all just out of our cars hanging out.   Right. Because because there was so much mud. Right? They were, like, metering. They weren't letting people in. Like, it was a whole thing. It's like eighteen hours, dude. It was like everyone's out of their car hanging out except for the times where we just incrementally move up. It was that's just like how it's it's like how it was.   And,   you know, we're having bullshitting around having the same conversation. And our last week, I was like, yeah. Before the Internet,  

[00:23:59] Unknown:

we just had the same conversations every fucking night with your friends. You kinda did. Yeah. Yeah. You had a a you had a few stories that were in your rolodex that you would use. Yeah. I mean, that that was life.  

[00:24:10] Unknown:

Sitting in this sitting in this trappy jam waiting to go on the commentary, everybody was talking about the same shit, which is like   I had a view I had a strong view where which was like, I hope they never come back because I thought it was so fucking sad. I just thought the whole situation was so shitty. And I was like, this is the way it is. I don't wanna I I hope it's forever.   I was obviously wrong.   Right? Right. But I remember having that view. And I think that it was, like, I I'm saying this because I feel like I can get into Mike's head a little bit.   And, like, the only way to accept that it actually has to end is that you just have to accept it   and accept it forever.  



[00:24:47] Unknown:

Mhmm. Yeah. That's the only way to process it. Otherwise, you're gonna be   you're gonna lack closure. Right?  

[00:24:54] Unknown:

Yeah. You have to basically cut the cord and say this chapter   is over. We're moving on. And We're assuming it's over. Future is now for the rest of our lives. Yeah. Exactly.   And so it makes sense to me that also that he said he didn't want he was a no to coming back. He said no. He's like no. We're not thinking that. Mike says no.   Mike says no. Yeah.   Mike said no to drugs.   He  

[00:25:20] Unknown:

said no to everything else, but then he fucking knew it. It sounds like he says no to all the wrong things. He he really is getting it wrong a lot.  

[00:25:29] Unknown:

Yeah, dude.  

[00:25:30] Unknown:

Like, you know, the band the band needed to break up. Let's just be clear. And the band needed to get back together, and he should have done more drugs.   That's just, you know, my humble opinion.  

[00:25:40] Unknown:

I think all of those things are right.   You know, so the other I mean, again,   I I get I'm just gonna give you some tidbits before we talk about   the the other stuff.  

[00:25:50] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:25:51] Unknown:

Oh, it's cool. Because I paused, I don't know how long we were gone for the first part. So now I'm not gonna know how long we I'm not gonna know how long we did this episode. This is good. I'm off we're off time.   We're getting Synchopin. Type to  

[00:26:05] Unknown:

Yeah. We syncopin. To do.   Right.  

[00:26:10] Unknown:

What was I gonna say?   Oh, so Rick Rubin asked a really good question.   He goes,   what were the dynamics like in band? Where,   are there factions?   Like, I I never thought there would be factions in the band. Right? No.   But Rick Rick Rubin knows there are factions in every band. There has to be a faction. Right? He he's on the inside. And he's like, are there factions? Have they changed over time? And you know what, Mike said?   What's that? He was like he said, it's trained fish   forever.   Makes sense.   Always it's always and forever I've been Trey and Fish.   And,   he said that   especially early on,   Fish,   you know, it's it's not it's not a normal rhythm section because Fish   plays off of Trey, not off of Mike.  



[00:27:02] Unknown:

I mean, in part. Let's be  

[00:27:05] Unknown:

But not as far as like back in '85 you know, in '84, '85.  

[00:27:11] Unknown:

In the early music, the those compositions, you're right. And playing off of Trey's guitar and him doing a lot of single single cymbal work   in in alignment with Trey, while still keeping, you know, his bass drum.   As a rhythm section, Mike and Fish are the best in rock.   You know, one of the best You're saying it changed. Ever. That that changed.  

[00:27:35] Unknown:

He said he really said it was Trey   changed,   where he became   a more,   like we talked about it last week. He was machine gun Trey. Yeah.   And that transformed. But I, you know, Mike was even down. He was much more specific   just about the kind of adjustments that Trey would make was making over time. You know, this guy's  

[00:27:59] Unknown:

and, we we remember that strange.   Remember that video I sent you with Corey Wong? It was a little clip from YouTube of Trey explaining that the early music was actually written on piano and then transcribed into into guitar. You would figure it out after the fact because the fingerings   were very unusual.   That that kind of explains that, you know, during that period of that type of composition, that Fishman would lean more into them, like, melodic nature,   of the melody that Trey might be playing on his cymbals and things like that.   Because I hear it in the songs like Divided Sky.  



[00:28:33] Unknown:

Trey has always composed, even to this day, composes songs on the piano.  

[00:28:39] Unknown:

Okay. I thought it was okay. I thought he was alluding to is mainly the early music.  

[00:28:44] Unknown:

In the movie Me and My Between Me and My Mind. Right?  

[00:28:48] Unknown:

Square. If you've seen it. So meanwhile here, these guys are is that the one we linked in the in one of the shows?  

[00:28:54] Unknown:

I think so. It was Was that Like, that was the movie that came out during Ghost of the Forest, and it was really about called the ACD's That  

[00:29:03] Unknown:

I haven't seen that. I'm sorry.  

[00:29:05] Unknown:

You know, like, you know, showed him waking up at six in the morning,   grab some coffee, and hitting the piano.   And I think he basically said the piano is how he likes to compose music.   There's some type of purity to it. There's some type of like that's just it's just   it's just sensibility.   Yeah. If he if, you know, composes on piano.   Very interesting.  

[00:29:31] Unknown:

Yeah. Makes sense. Like, classical music was all done in that style.  

[00:29:35] Unknown:

Yeah. So he'll score it. He'll he'll be on the piano. He'll score it.   You know.   And then figure out what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. Check out this check out the mic, this interview. It's really great. It's it's like it's   it's really nice and great. So the only guy really we've never   we've never really heard from is Paige. I feel like, hey,   You know, in a banned biographical   manner.   Yeah. But I'd like to I really would like to hear from him. I mean,   I'd love to hear from page.   Yeah. There was a time where I thought he was, like, the most important member to be.  

[00:30:12] Unknown:

You know? I I think that from time to time. I alternate I've I've gone through phases with each of them where I thought each of them was the most important member of the band. So I I've never thought that about Mike.  

[00:30:23] Unknown:

I don't know. Interesting. I can't explain myself. I've never   I don't really hear the bass. You know, back in the, rec music fish days   So here's a fun fact from the early days of the Internet.   There was a, movement   called PLM,   and it was People for a Louder Mic.   Oh, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. They were demanding that mic get turned up and then mic got turned up. In the mix.  

[00:30:49] Unknown:

Yeah. The live mix. The live mix. Yeah. Yeah. Like the front of house mix. Yeah.  

[00:30:55] Unknown:

And, I think Mike and and Mike ended up just talking about how he I think Mike is turned down for his that's how he likes it. It's not that he wants it it's not that he wants himself to be dim. He likes hearing   the other   band the other band members in his monitor. Yeah.   He's oh, you know what's interesting?   So they were talking about the in ear monitor.  

[00:31:20] Unknown:

Mhmm. And Mike started Oh, the thing about that about the sphere. Yeah. At post sphere. Right.  

[00:31:25] Unknown:

So   there is this   there is this, like,   way the band thinks. Like, this is like a law of the land of the band where they were, like, very anti in ear monitors.   Very anti. In fact,   Mike said that the band   had the strong view that in ear monitors   did more damage to the dead than Jerry's drug addiction.  

[00:31:50] Unknown:

Wow. Okay. Yeah.   And so They conflated   they conflated some things.  

[00:32:00] Unknown:

That's how they felt. That's just that's how they felt about it. Yeah. Understood. They had an opinion. Yeah.   And in year '41, it's just like, well, whatever dude. This is what you wanna do. This is what you wanna do. Right? And you're and you're like, we're we're fine. But Yeah. It for a long time, it was such a fucking taboo no no.   Mhmm. And no so nobody was ever gonna do it. Carry   me back. So Mike, you know, Mike kinda broke it. It seems to work. Right?  

[00:32:28] Unknown:

I just thought that was interesting.   Yeah. It no. It really is. I mean, could be because when I when I caught wind of what was going on, when I saw that   his his   cabinet rig behind him was no longer.   What's funny is that,   well, that coincides with my probably first time I've ever had the voice in my head say, Mike is the most important member of the band, and that was during this back run of this of the summer that we've talked a lot about.   Like, when he was doing   interesting thing with the effects and moving, like, that was really struck   out at me. It's like, oh, wow. Like, if Mike continues on this particular trajectory,   he may he he may be the most important member of the band. At least, you know Fair point. In the matrix in the matrix of of of of that oscillation.  



[00:33:15] Unknown:

I think about Paige, and I don't know, maybe it's the coach team, but he never had it like an he's an old like, he never has an off night. Like, he's always, like,   old reliable, always there.   Yep. And   that's the thing again, it's, like, noticeable.   Right?   That even when, like, maybe Pete Traes doesn't doesn't   quite have it,   Paige is always he's, like, you know, always the MVP.  

[00:33:41] Unknown:

Yeah. He's like the the old school, like like, from your era fan. Like, I have some friends that have been into them since, like, the, you know, 9094,   '95, '90 yeah, '94, let's say.   And it's, like, kind of the cool, like, fan thing to do is to, like, have Paige be your favorite.   Because it's, like, you're kinda rooting for the underdog or you're rooting for the unsung hero.  

[00:34:02] Unknown:

When we grow up on songs like Squirting and Coil that especially in if you're going to shows in '93, '94, '95, you always had   that moment where, you know, they close the set with Squirming Coil and Paige would be on stage buying some And they walk off. For five minutes.   Yep. The walk off. Yeah. And just that whole that whole era of really Paige tickling the ivory   was such a key part of the sound.   Yeah?   Yeah. True. Like you like indispensable.   Like it's an indispensable   part of Fish's sound.  

[00:34:36] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:34:36] Unknown:

The piano man. Like, more so to me than a lot of Latre did.  

[00:34:42] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[00:34:42] Unknown:

You know?   Yeah. Like, it turned into the boards.   Yeah. The signature   of Fish's sound   was just page tickle on those keys.   Yep.   You know, you think Fish on the high hat.  

[00:34:57] Unknown:

Right? Yes.   Correct. Or his or his or his ride cymbal work, his flat his flat ride. Yeah.  

[00:35:03] Unknown:

Yeah.   So anyway,   it's it's so fun. It's just like such a gift. These these interviews happen so seldomly and when they do, it's just they give you it's just so much more of a picture   of the history of the band, and it's, you know, it's wonderful. So I, you know, wanted to just bring that up.   Definitely look out for it. Definitely check it out.  

[00:35:26] Unknown:

It's a good one. It's a fucking big one. Well, when I saw I think it was linked in one of the booths from our last episode   or at least from   someone aware of our last episode.   And, it   never occurred to me. When I saw it, I was like, oh my god. That's perfect. Because I've I've listened to a few of Rick's interviews. And  

[00:35:45] Unknown:

when I saw it on paper, I just realized, like, who would be better at interviewing somebody like Mike than Rick Rubin? Like, it really is a it's probably excellent content. Yeah. It's probably very fascinating. Trey and Corey Wong interview, like, I'm not in a rush to hear it. So at this point Mhmm. Feel like I just have heard so much from Trey. It's like, okay. Fine. You know? Here we get another interview from Trey of, him being you know, it's like Trey being Trey. Trey is like Magic Johnson.   You know? He just now, like, just gets he just wants to be magic. He wants to be Trey and that's fine. Right? Mhmm. But he's not he's so much of the what we know about Fish came from him telling us.   Yes. And there's probably he's probably still narrating in the background as  

[00:36:27] Unknown:

we talk. Yes.   Probably  

[00:36:29] Unknown:

is. Right? That's what he did and that's what he does. And it took and Trey and Corey Wong, that should have been super exciting. I love both of those guys. I love Corey.  

[00:36:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Right?  

[00:36:39] Unknown:

But when this thing dropped, I'm like, dude,   I'm listening to this right away.   Yeah. You know, there's two hours just like not, you know,   just, you know, that's that's just happening.   So Yeah. It was really great, really great treat.   I guess I'll listen to Phil Jackson one probably before I hear the Trey and Corey Huang interview.  

[00:36:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's probably more interesting.   He's done a couple others that are really good. He did one with the RZA. I'm a big Wu Tang Wu Tang guy. Fish and Wu Tang was my   bread and butter.  

[00:37:11] Unknown:

You   know, the thing about Phil Jackson, I just it was make I was, you know, I was looking at the thumbnail the whole time I'm watching this movie.   The whole time I'm just, like, staring at the thumbnail   and, like,   and the thumbnails are everything about the aesthetic of this podcast is cool. It's cool. Even the Yeah. Even the thumbnails the thumbnails are, like, drawings   of their these people's silhouettes.  

[00:37:37] Unknown:

Right.   You know? It's all very peculiar.   Yeah. Yeah. In a good way.  

[00:37:43] Unknown:

But the thing about Phil Jackson   I don't know why I have to say this.   But like,   I I've I'm fascinated by people who are considered to be deep.   You know,   like how do people get how do people get considered to be deep?  

[00:38:01] Unknown:

It's fugazi on its face. Right? You know what I'm  

[00:38:04] Unknown:

saying?  

[00:38:05] Unknown:

I do know what you're saying. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, this goes back to the lion lion if you really wanna get into it.   The lion lion lion? The lion doesn't have to tell you he's a lion. That whole thing that we we already got a couple episodes ago. It's like, yeah. Phil Jackson had like always had this reputation.  

[00:38:25] Unknown:

Just this persona  

[00:38:27] Unknown:

and, you know, people think I know. I was there. I was there. I remember. I remember with Kobe especially. He was the Kobe whisperer.  

[00:38:34] Unknown:

Right? Kobe's the And Kobe was the Yeah.   Yeah. Dude,   you you haven't seen enough,   you haven't seen enough of Kobe   breaking down basketball footage.  

[00:38:46] Unknown:

No. He's an intellectual guy. I don't think anybody ever ever doubted that. But but why is why is Kobe deep and Phil not? If that's if that's your measure.  

[00:38:55] Unknown:

Oh, I didn't say Phil wasn't. I just I'm fascinated by how can people get the  

[00:39:00] Unknown:

how do people get known for that? I find that. Oh, it's, it's, it's, women. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's women. Women do that. I don't think I don't think there's any other way. No one Really? No guy nobody no guy talks about another guy and says, oh, that guy's really deep. It just just doesn't happen.   You have to be you have to be famous. How do women have a sense of depth?   I just don't think that I don't think that that descriptor gets attached by any other group of people.   It's just my take.   Yeah.  

Blame Oprah.  

[00:39:35] Unknown:

You know,   okay.   I think I will. I think I think I'll do that.   I'll vote.   Alright.   Well, that concludes the segment of   Rick Rubin and Mike Gordon.  

[00:39:51] Unknown:

Yeah. So the floor I gotta check that out. I gotta check that out because we were notified at the same time on the same note, I think, and I just my 40 HPW has been getting in the way of,   branching off.  

[00:40:03] Unknown:

Makes sense.   So the floor is yours. What do you wanna hit?   I'm awake now.  

[00:40:10] Unknown:

You're awake now? Are you you're feeling are you on your fourth wind?  

[00:40:14] Unknown:

I'm a yeah. I'm gonna make it. You wanna make it? Alright. I'm in podcast mode, dude. I I I just need a topic to talk about.  

[00:40:22] Unknown:

Sure. I mean, do you wanna talk about the thing? You know, we'll talk about the thing. We built it up a little bit. Well, before we start, I mean, listen, there was a promise made this, you know, yesterday on RPB and released today. Promise.   But there was a promise. There was a guarantee made.   There were guarantees made. Alright. Now let's get that's what I guarantee I will have to uphold I will have to uphold the guarantee.  

[00:40:44] Unknown:

I listened to RPB today.   I didn't really recall if we I didn't recall a guarantee being put down, but I think I might have to see It was done it was done before  

[00:40:55] Unknown:

two minutes. Two minutes went by. I I I immediately I paused it immediately after I heard it. I'd wrote it down   and then, you know, you sent me a text and and then here we are.   Okay.  

[00:41:06] Unknown:

Fair enough.  

[00:41:08] Unknown:

Fair enough. But shout out but shout out to Nicole and Becky. I know we we, I I just wanted to give them a quick shout out. Hope you're still listening.   These are my my friends that I go to Mexico with that have, I wouldn't   are fans of this podcast. And they are not big they are not Bitcoiners. And they think they sent a note, like, when are you gonna teach us about Bitcoin? I was like, I don't think you understand the point of the podcast, but,   just wanted to say hi.  

[00:41:34] Unknown:

Yo. Hello. Yo.   Hope that's awesome.   So I'll dismiss these two female names that I did not doubt that   are they,   who's deep in your crap?   Who's deep? You do roll with anybody who,   is considered deep.  

[00:41:54] Unknown:

I'm in a hall of mirrors right now. That's what's going on.  

[00:41:59] Unknown:

I'm scrolling through sorry. I'm scrolling through my Twitter looking for this thing I did. Has all the knowledge inherent in the universe  

[00:42:05] Unknown:

I have a reputation for being   mildly philosophical   relative to my peers. I don't know if that makes me deep. That's mildly But,  

[00:42:15] Unknown:

it makes me something. Good ways. Now this guy will send his couple of  

[00:42:19] Unknown:

I'm looking for this thing so I can deliver on You know, it's terrible. I'm looking for so okay. Can we should we introduce a little bit  

[00:42:28] Unknown:

Yeah. This theory that you have. Yeah. Yeah. Please Well, the stage is yours. The stage is yours. The stage is mine.  

[00:42:34] Unknown:

Yes. Alright. I got I'm I'm okay. I think I found it. Alright.   So   as we all know,   There's been a little there's there's a lot of drama.   There's a lot of shit ass   drama in the Bitcoin space at the moment.   Yes. Right?   I don't like it. I don't like to engage with it.   Same. I think it's gay. I think it's a lot of it's I think a lot of it's really   gay and stupid. In fact,   it reminds me,   you know, it's it's like the worst parts of,   you know, what you see on a fish online now.   You know, you got it's like the tribal the tribal shit with the chompers and the tarpers.  

[00:43:19] Unknown:

Yeah. And  

[00:43:21] Unknown:

you know if you like the line you suck, you're not a real fish man.   You know, if your bowels don't wanna move when the line starts,   you're a piece of shit.  

[00:43:34] Unknown:

That's right.   Farmhouse. You know,  

[00:43:37] Unknown:

the,   the low signal tribalism in the Bitcoin space is pretty   appalling in my opinion.   Yep. And,   like, when you're a real Bitcoiner, it's like it says pathetic as, like, you're not a real black person.  

[00:43:53] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:43:54] Unknown:

Like, you know, you're a you're like,   you know, like you're a traitor, basically. Like, you know, that you're considered a fucking traitor   if you don't pass the purity test. These binary purity tests. Right.   You should put my my   my fundamentals of puebloslaw purity tests in show notes just for reference. Okay.  

[00:44:14] Unknown:

Got it. Got it. Yep.  

[00:44:18] Unknown:

So what's happening right now is like just an otherworldly   I've never seen anything like this   online fish in thirty plus years. Anything like it of,   you know, like it's on the level of like if there were like if there were bad tape there used to be bad taper alerts.   And imagine like one of these bad tapers like would joined the band or something bad and everybody knows it. Just just be so angry and use their mind.   Like that's about on the level of what of what's going on here.   And I don't wanna get into it even with the players too much. I I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I can. I'm gonna describe the situation without getting too specific because I like it. Yeah. I think we can do that. So this tweet starts so okay.   One of the,   there's   there's a video elite   of one of these Bitcoin core developers   who,   was talking about how she doesn't, you know, whatever. She it's it's it's like very selected clips about how she doesn't like personality traits of   stereotypical   Bitcoiners.  

And it's Yeah. All designed for character assassination.   And   I'm in a thread now.   Like,   I should say, like, there's there's a lot of even misunderstanding about, like, the power these people even have.   Okay? Like, people think that they are, like, they have the power to like, they're that they have, like, some power that they don't have. That they think Right.   They think that we're under the thumb of,   you know, I'm about to have a conversation.   I'm I'm hosting a conversation that's really gonna try to get to the bottom   of what power do they have, really, what can we do about it. It's all you know, like, you know, the stupidity of this is a bit like, the baker's dozen when the front row rail people were leaving the show, like, halfway through the show so they can get online to be in the front row of the next show.  

Yeah. It's it's kind of the dysfunction that this reminds me. Yeah. Yep. Right?   And, you know, like, that front row mafia have you heard stories of the front row mafia, the rail mafia?  

[00:46:28] Unknown:

I'm, I'm aware. Yeah. And I've experienced it firsthand a couple of times here and there. Yeah. So maybe that's the kind of territory we're in with, like, just the craziness and trial They're just getting it wrong. Dysfunction.   Yeah. They're getting it all wrong. They're doing it wrong. They're they're doing all the things wrong.  

[00:46:44] Unknown:

Okay. Maybe maybe I'll do a little bit more. Like, so   nobody likes the nitrous   mafia. Right? Everybody would be happy if they went away and never But they're not but they're not fans of the band. Those are people just I understand. But my point is imagine   if people were so deranged   by the nitrous mafia   that we found out   that their favorite song   was,   Fluffhead and we started saying we hate fucking Fluffhead because they will enjoy it. Right. Understood. That's a good news. That's kind of on a level of what this is. Okay.   So we got this character assassination and we got some people in a thread that are starting to talk   some sense. So I jump in, you know.  

I'd start jumping in because,   I start talking about this podcast, this conversation I'm about to host. Right?   And,   somebody jumps in and says he he goes, are you doing any of the New Year's Eve run? Right? He just starts asking about that. I was like, okay.   Okay. Great.   Now we're now we're on a fish level.   That's exactly where I always wish this thing these things go.   Right. Right? It's like you're he's like letting me know, like, yeah. We're cool. Whatever however this thing plays out, we're cool. We're cool. And then   I said, I've considered   doing an episode   connecting the futile revolution,   the story of Game Edge, to this not bullshit, but it's not even worth it.  

And he says, LMAO,   please do this.   So I reply, okay,   I'll leave you with a few thoughts. And I was on a roll that day,   and I think I was writing, so I was had some nicotine in me.   So I banged out I banged out this little list.  

[00:48:33] Unknown:

I don't even Which I have which by the way, I I I copied and pasted into an email and re and sent it to myself right before we started recording. So I have I have it in front of me.  

[00:48:43] Unknown:

Nice. Okay. So let's do okay. Fine. Let's do this. Alright? We'll do the we'll do the list. Now before so before we get into the list,   my like, I I really like, my favorite thing   I think about fish always and forever is the story of GameEng.   I think if you're a 93, 94 boy like I am Mhmm. Mhmm. You've got first of all, of the   forget the New Year's Eve one they did last year. I mean, I guess people count it as a sixth one. Right? But, I mean, we got probably the majority of the five   in   that span of time.   Right. And if I wanna go off the top of my head, there was an 87 Nectars,   like, you know, something like 08/22, '87, something like that. Then you had this North Shore   yeah. North Shore Surf Club 1991.  

I wanna say 10/1391.   And then you had My birthday. Yeah. Oh, nice.   Crest Theatre 32293.   You had Great Woods   7894.   I missed the one I missed was Game Hoist.   The Game Hoist, which is when they did Gamehenge in the first set and Hoist in the second set. And I'm gonna say that was   April what was that? April   it was April   '94.  

[00:50:04] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:50:05] Unknown:

Makes sense. Something. It it wasn't the opening.   Maybe it might have been April 4 of the film theater. I don't think it was.   Mhmm. I think it was like,   like I I can't remember. So those are the five.   So those five, you had three of them happened between   March '93   and   July '94.   Mhmm. I remember going to Great Woods in July '95 thinking, oh my god. Like, you know, like fans really thought you were gonna get one. You know, it was one of those things. I remember it being a thing. Yeah. As I as I got into the scene of people, like, hoping for a game a GameHenge to bust.   There was talk about   getting there was talk about putting it on a CD ROM that the band was   actually working on putting Gamehead on, like, a CD ROM and making it a making it an actual interactive thing,   which I think is hard if if you didn't live in that time. If you didn't live in that time remember that? You know?  

Yeah. Like, you   like, that's how you got cool games where they would be on CD ROMs. Yeah.  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

And and for the young kids out there, this is before DVDs even existed. That's that was the best we had were CD ROMs. That was the most dated Totally.   Totally. On a on a substrate.  

[00:51:21] Unknown:

So I know we did an episode about Game Match before from from the essay, but, like, I just wanna bring this back and,   like, it's probably the most hyped,   like, in like, the things you thought about getting in a show would be like a harpua   Yeah. Or or a game henge.   And you actually thought about it seriously.  

[00:51:43] Unknown:

So, and I confessed in one of the threads you were mentioning   that, you know, my absence of paying attention to lyrics is is was catching up with me as you were getting into the nuance of the story, of the fish of the game henge story.   And   what's funny is I was I was at the New Year's. The last New Year's I attended was the Game Henge New Year's, and I may I may never go to another New Year's again. That's literally convenient.   So I just felt like that was a nice way to top it off   because   me seeing it live and having the story actually played out in front of me with some people from Broadway and the production and the whole thing and   Trey calling, you know, you know, Jimmy calling his dad a gaslighting asshole and all the funny little things that happened during that during that performance. You got both.  

Yeah. It it it forced me to Harpua.   Yeah. It I mean, GameHedge was within Harpua. Correct.   And,   it's it forced me to great fan service.   It's like ridiculous fan service. Insane. Yes. You know? But it forced me to understand the actual story because I saw it. You know what I mean? I actually I actually went through the the first time I went through the whole game engine in continuum as a story was at that show.  

[00:52:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I should basically explain real can I explain real quick what it means to get a game henge? What the fuck it means? Sure. Yeah. You should do that. It   so this thing we've talked about it before, but it's this was like Trey's senior thesis and it's a story   it's a story that's   I'll I'll say some, you know,   I think in total   fifteen, sixteen songs, but at, you know, when they play it at a show, it might be 10   of the songs, not all of them. But he'll do it with narration and the original   game hinge that was   it's called The Man Who Stepped Into Yesterday.  

This is what he submitted at Goddard College for a senior project, and it included all the narration in all the songs. And so you can hear all that.   And so, I would recommend   if you're gonna if you wanna, like, listen to the original,   go to Walter Ruski. Do watch Ross Walter Ruski's review of it. The edge of game. Because then I think you'll get, like,   you'll get the color from a lot. The thing about Walter Ruski is not him. It's the fans that are in the chat.   And they're good. Okay. Like, the fans in the chat are actually ex these are excellent   fans.  

Yes. Anytime he has a question, they've all like, they all have the right answers. They're all over it. And and he does his stuff like right?  

[00:54:12] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:54:14] Unknown:

So I would check that   out. So what that's what it means to get game hinges. So   there are these subversions   of the game hinge which is like I'm I'm guessing we started the show with   a Colonel Forbin   into the famous Mockingbird. So it's like a subversion where you have two songs with narration   in between.  

[00:54:35] Unknown:

Right. Right? That are played together and you'll get those from random, you know, not a lot but you'll get them from time to time. Right. And  

[00:54:43] Unknown:

the story   is about a,   it's really about a   at the highest highest level, a futile   revolution   that ends exactly the way you thought it would meet the new boss, same as the old boss.   And,   you know,   even at a higher level,   centuries later, the god of their world   just keeps laughing about it, you know, about how fucking pathetic and futile it is. And so like that's like the overarching theme. Right. That's why I find it so compelling in the Bitcoin conversation because that's what these things always are. Right? Nodded roots. Nodded roots. Right? Nodded roots. Okay. So that's the backdrop   of,   it's the backdrop of this. Okay? Right.  

Okay. Now,   I guess I'll hit the list. It's this is   I heard a little piece of feedback about our show by the way.   It's just like   like yeah. That's the one I don't listen to because I just like   can't   sit there and hear these references I don't understand   like for, you know, for an hour. So I'm sorry, but that's like the one show I don't quite get.   So that's fine. That's fair. But having said that, let's do this. Let's do this. Why why stop now?  

[00:56:01] Unknown:

That's right.   This is the show. I mean, come on.  

[00:56:08] Unknown:

This is the show. Okay. So I said I will leave you with some thoughts. This is what I tweeted and I basically said,   number one,   there is a Tila character, and she's a certain female I will not name, but can be guessed. Okay. So, like, I'm I'm I'm not really gonna say much more than that other than,   you know, Tila is   a song. It's one of the nicest songs, and Tila is a woman   who,   really comes in,   she's riding her multi beast and Colonel Forbin who's like the protagonist of the story for the most part.   Colonel Forbin is a character from, like, the normal world who transports himself, who teleports himself into this land of Gamehenge   and befriends these people   who are being   persecuted.  

They're being persecuted by this trap this guy Wilson who was a traveler, and he figured out they were all fucking retards   and stole their book from him, put it in a high castle so they couldn't get it and decreed it was illegal to ever, you know, ever have again.   Anyway, so Colonel Forbin comes from a, like, a land and the second he sees Teela, he falls in love with her and,   you know, they start that he just starts joining the revolution.  

[00:57:30] Unknown:

Yep. Gets swept away.  

[00:57:33] Unknown:

He gets swept away. Yes.   Okay.   Now,   number two.   Luke Dash Jr   is Aaron Wolf.   I say and I'm   okay. So who is Aaron Wolf? Aaron Wolf is really the,   he's like the leader of the revolution. He's the most hateful   of Wilson.   You know, he's the one screaming in the song Wilson. You know, Wilson King of Prussia, I lay this hate on you.   Right? It's Aaron Wolf. And I forgot the circumstances. Maybe you can tell me, like, what something something happened to somebody, like, did Wilson kill somebody in his family that killed dad or somebody that to make him that   triggered,  

[00:58:20] Unknown:

you wouldn't know because you don't let him. Yeah. Well, I mean,  

[00:58:25] Unknown:

Something happened, but either way, he's like the guy   then when   the revolution   happens, they take over,   Aaron Wolf gets his hands on a health and friendly book and become the Wilson, basically. He basically Right.   Takes the book, puts it back in the castle,   and becomes the next ruler and,   you know, so on and so forth.   So that's   to me, that's Luke.   Okay? That's Luke Dang in the story.   Sorry, fish guys. This is you don't wanna know. You don't wanna know.  

[00:58:59] Unknown:

You really don't.  

[00:59:00] Unknown:

You don't. Okay. So   but okay. So this this is a holy war.   Okay. Luke Dash is is fighting a holy war.  

[00:59:09] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:59:10] Unknown:

And,   you know, he is genuine   he's genuinely hateful   of   you   know, like, you know, for at a certain level, he's one of the only people he's one of the only characters on that side I actually   kind of respect.   Even so far as   forget you know, before he was trying to do this fork, I mean, he's he's a guy that   wanted, you know, he wanted an alternative for his node and he made one.   So from that perspective,   you know,   he did something.   Now he's very sort of corrupted because he's, you know, we   we he's funded by   Jack Dorsey,   and he's funded by  

[00:59:55] Unknown:

Yes. By now a con he's party he's part of a company now, which he wasn't before.  

[01:00:00] Unknown:

Right. And and and he's attempting to hijack Bitcoin, like, for realsies. You know? Right.   So,   you know, to me, he is basically and, you know, he has this   this this crusade that he's on is,   futile.   So that's why I basically   I basically say he's the Aaron Wolf character   in the  

[01:00:21] Unknown:

story. And it's worth noting he was the guy that figured out how to do integrate SegWit without doing a hard fork. He's attributed that That's right. Credit. Okay. Okay. He's a you know, he has accomplished  

[01:00:33] Unknown:

capable he has accomplished things that indicate that he is certainly capable of   of doing stuff.  

[01:00:41] Unknown:

Yes. Of contributing positively   to the network. Sure. Yes.   In the   past.  

[01:00:47] Unknown:

Now, mechanic who's like Luke's flunky, really.   So I I call Luke's flunky. He's mechanic.   Yeah. He is Rutherford the Brave.   We meet we meet Rutherford the Brave in the song of the lizards.   The song, the lizards,   the lizards are the people of game age   and the song describes them as   morons,   stupid   morons who   are almost on the verge of extinction from being stupid.  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

Yeah. So stupid that they have this book that they live by, that they never thought about making a copy of.   They just had the one, the one version   that Wilson  

[01:01:28] Unknown:

song brother for the brave, who I say is a mechanic, in the song, the lizards,   you know,   he brother for the brave is wearing this suit of arms,   and he walks   into the,   into a stream   and drowned.   Right. Cause he, cause he doesn't, he could, and like, this is like,   to me, one of Trey's great tricks that he's ever pulled off, which is like just this descriptiveness,   The descriptiveness,   like, it's he it would have been enough to just say these people are stupid, but he actually incorporated   somebody doing something really stupid demonstrating   why they're on the verge of extinction.  



[01:02:06] Unknown:

Yes.   In addition to the fact that there's only one book, which I thought was always implied in the whole story of, like, how stupid the lizards were. Central Pointe player. Central Pointe player. Yeah. That would lead me to number four, the lizards were genuinely stupid.  

[01:02:21] Unknown:

Mhmm. I'm not I look I'm not   I'd say I specify the lizards because I'm not saying that the people on the side of this thing are dumb.   I wanna be clear about   that. Yes. It's not it's   but they are   following,   you know, they're not,   they're definitely not technically astute   when it comes to Bitcoin. They're not they're just not technically astute   about   about what they're doing.  

[01:02:50] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:02:51] Unknown:

And they're not nearly as technical as the side they hate, and that's   really the main reason why this is going nowhere.  

[01:02:58] Unknown:

Yeah. It's really an embodiment   of, I think, the trend that we've seen all around this,   over the maybe most noticeable,   during during and after COVID   is that   every time a new story drops, everyone is suddenly an expert on that thing and feels like they need to have an opinion and they take side, and they typically don't do much critical thinking on their own as an individual. They just kind of parrot   the views of others that they Yeah.   Hold hold in high regard.  

[01:03:26] Unknown:

But to me, their failure isn't one of critical thinking. It's actually their failure is listening to critical to technical arguments and ignoring them.  

[01:03:35] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:03:37] Unknown:

So, like, explain it. It's not explain that further. Yeah.   So, like, I hear technical arguments all the time, but about how what,   you know, the things Bitcoin Core is doing is is ruining Bitcoin. And every and anytime like, I hear a lot of wrong things.   I hear a lot of That's a lot of the wrong understandings about   and then and what so what they do is they bring these narratives,   like, to scare people into their point of view.   Like, you're gonna be in legal trouble now   because of things that are getting you put on the blockchain. Right? Whereas Right. You know, the reality is opportune you know, not to get too technical here. Right?   Yeah. Yeah. But still. This isn't gonna be that technical, but, like, you know, you can prune.  

Opportunities can be pruned.   Mhmm.   You know, something came up around backporting.   I was told that,   I was told   by somebody   that   version 29 was back ported into version 30,   that it was irrelevant that I didn't update my node from the 29 to 30 because it was back ported.   And I asked my resident,   backporting just basically means you can No. They  

[01:04:51] Unknown:

will they will they maintain any patches that went into '30 are gonna go into twenty nine and twenty eight because that's how they that's how they do it. That's how they maintain Let me You're talking about, like, security security patches?  

[01:05:02] Unknown:

No. No. No. I'm talking about the, basically, the ability   to,   I think it's the ability of the miner to quickly   choose one or the other.  

[01:05:13] Unknown:

Oh, it's like like toggle between the two at They need that ability In quick fashion.  

[01:05:18] Unknown:

They need the in case they want to accept it.  

[01:05:21] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:05:22] Unknown:

Right. And so my technical resource,   my technical resource  

[01:05:27] Unknown:

I think I know who. Yeah. He basically  

[01:05:30] Unknown:

he mean, he gave me the entire encyclopedia of what versions were back ported into what version. And there are many, they do backporting, but Yeah. Just was untrue   that 29 was backported into 30 and this just was totally ignored and messenger was killed. And this is just yet another,   like,   it's just another example   of willfully ignoring, like, you know, you had this fact that you thought was really damning and you were told it was wrong and you ignored it. And you ignore it and you still ignore it. Yeah. Still ignore it. So, you know Uh-huh. And it's like so it's like all they're about is this narrative. Anything   that questions the narrative,   they'll kill the messenger.  



[01:06:10] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's really antithetical to the fact that, you know, the the the the trope what that Bitcoin doesn't care about your feelings. Like this is all about emotion. This is all about fear trying to trying to use emotion to get your way, basically, or to or to win an argument, and it's it's just antithetical.   Yeah. Okay. So It kinda it kinda it kinda proves that you don't really know how this thing this thing is designed to operate.  

[01:06:34] Unknown:

Yeah. That's right. So, I mean, the the   this thing is actually very upsetting.   And I I think this attempt to bring it to bring it into GameHenge is an attempt to make it less upsetting   for me. Yeah.   So I'm not claiming that it's gonna have this nailed. I don't think like, I'm not saying I got this No. No. No. No. No. I'm just trying to make some light of this and because the old the only other way   to have fun with this   is to troll these people and   it's not going well. That's not like that's not really not going well either.   You know what I mean? Okay. I do.  

Okay. So like don't kill me. Like, this is gonna be   heard forever.   Yeah. The band's gonna find this podcast one day. I mean, what the fuck are these guys talking about?   I don't know. You know?   So We're drawing.  

[01:07:26] Unknown:

Yeah. We're drawing happen.   Listen. This podcast is about drawing connections between Bitcoin and fish, and we   I know you you were sparked with the with the idea that   Gamehenge could help   help,  

[01:07:40] Unknown:

I don't know, draw draw parallels or draw an analogy towards what's going on in real life. Yes. You can go back to episode two, by the way, where I really covered the story of GameHange in detail.  

[01:07:52] Unknown:

That was a good one. With its connections  

[01:07:55] Unknown:

to Bitcoin.   Yes.   Okay. We're pretending we're kind of retconning it now.   Yeah.   Okay.   This is not canon. This episode is officially not canon.  

[01:08:08] Unknown:

It's not. It's not. Alright.  

[01:08:12] Unknown:

Okay. Number five.   The white paper   is the helping friendly book. And instead of being trapped high up in Wilson's castle, they just don't read   it. So, like, they have they could get they could get to it anytime they want. They have it. They have it. They just don't read it.   I don't can't tell you how many times people have posted things from the white paper that said if they just read this, this whole thing would   I don't know how true all that is, but, like Right.   You know  

[01:08:44] Unknown:

Yeah. We solved the helping friendly book problem. We have an infinite number of copies of the white paper. Just go read it.  

[01:08:52] Unknown:

Take it for what it's worth. I you know,   because it's about more than just the technical issues. This is about not letting people they don't like enjoy   the things going on in the building. This is like this it's like how far would you go   to   not have to deal with,   ticket brokers?   How far would you go? Right? Would you lobby to congress? Would you call the cops   every time anytime you saw it? Like how far would you go to not have to deal with people you don't like is the question. And it's we're dealing with people that are going that are going extremely far.   Right? How far would you go to avoid harbors?  

People that make your show experience   unpleasant.   Right? Would you call would you call ice   on them? You know what I mean? Like, how far would you fucking go?   That's what we're dealing with. Like, that's the the big thing I feel. So that's why when I say they don't read the white paper, I'm saying, like,   this isn't about knowing the answer for them. This is about   locking out beep this is about, like,   just locking out people I don't   like. Mhmm. I don't particularly   like these people either but, like Yeah. You don't have a free society, you know, when you want you wanna have a free society, you have to accept a lot of shit.   Yeah. You have to be tolerant of others. Yes. There's things you have to accept and, you know, some the people you don't like might might have to enjoy some of the things you enjoy.  



[01:10:17] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[01:10:20] Unknown:

Alright.   Number six. This one's gonna be spicy.   Jack Dorsey is mister Palmer, funding the revolution.   And then I have in parentheses,   who will be the ACDC vendor?  

[01:10:35] Unknown:

That is the that's really the question we're gonna leave our audience for us today.  

[01:10:39] Unknown:

Right. Because the ACDC bag,   now you I I I made I made quite a couple of sub,   subtextual   accusations in   that one.   Because if you read my essay or you go back to episode two,   the only evidence of   fiat money in Gamehenge   is the line is is the line the opening line of ACDC Bank.   Mister Palmer is concerned with the thousand dollar question.   Yep. Now let's just be clear. Mister Palmer is not Rod Palmer.   No.   No. Right?  

[01:11:15] Unknown:

We we actually Let's be clear. We actually did cover that and and it's not Robert Palmer either. It's just mister Palmer. It's not Robert Palmer.  

[01:11:24] Unknown:

It's Jack Dorsey.  

[01:11:26] Unknown:

It's Jack Dorsey's account.  

[01:11:27] Unknown:

He's Wilson's accountant   and the ACDC bag so he's funding the revolution and when Wilson figures it out, we have to figure out who Wilson is, but look when he figures it out, he has him hung in the public square and that's the moment Colonel Forburn realizes   this shit is fucked.   I can't deal with any of these fucking people. I gots to go up the mountain and talk to ridiculous.  

[01:11:50] Unknown:

Right? Yep. Go to the source. Go to the source code.  

[01:11:54] Unknown:

Okay. So that leads me to number seven.   Number seven. This was probably the biggest stretch of them all, but I wanted to include   I needed to include two char two characters,   and this is my best way of doing so.   So I said Rob Hamilton is Colonel Forbin with a sense of humor.   Now let me caveat real quick. There in no in no world   does, Rob Hamilton fall in love with the Teela character that No. Here in this in no world does that happen.   No. So that's the first thing I need to caveat here. Yes. There's literally no world where that fucking happens.   But Rob is a guy with a sense of humor.  

He's known as the giggler.  

[01:12:37] Unknown:

He is. Affectionately.  

[01:12:40] Unknown:

You know, he is   kind of reviled   by   the other side, but it's mostly because, like, he just, like, wakes up and naturally just dunks on them by being himself.   Yeah. Like, his existence is a dunk on these people.  

[01:12:56] Unknown:

Yeah. So It is.  

[01:12:59] Unknown:

You know, but I he's the guy he's the one guy he's the one character I think who just will be like,   I don't accept this.   And if there is an Ickalus,   he'll seek him out.   See that. Cause you know what I mean? If there is   a last ditch,   like source of knowledge,   right?   And Nicholas says to Colonel Forbin, the tree of knowledge in your soul will grow.   Right? And the helping friendly book will plant the seed.   Rob has read the white paper. Rob has seeded his tree of knowledge very deeply.   Right?   Yes. So   so there you go. That's that, you know, like, that is I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with this one. I do think Rob is the protagonist   of this story.  

Yes. And Colonel Forbin is the protagonist of the story.   Now,   you know, Colonel Forbin, the the story starts with him getting a haircut.   So, that's a bit of a that's a bit of a snag.  

[01:14:03] Unknown:

Oh, that's that's rough. I thought he was shaving his shaving his beard. That's not fair.   Does he get any haircut? I think he's  

[01:14:11] Unknown:

just I'm just saying, yeah. He's   he's like you know, Colonel Forbin was this old   guy   with military.   53 years old. Yep. Yeah. 53 Rob's a young Rob's like Rob's a young he's a young buck.  

[01:14:27] Unknown:

Yes.  

[01:14:28] Unknown:

So, you know, we have some inconsistencies here. But you get but, you know, the protagonist  

[01:14:33] Unknown:

is the protagonist. They both they both shave daily. Let's just put it that way. They they use razors a lot. So there is the connection.  

[01:14:41] Unknown:

And I'm guessing if there's one guy in the story who can teleport,   it would be Rob.   It would be. Like if we found out after the fact.  

[01:14:50] Unknown:

Yes. Like of course it was Rob. Of course, Rob knew how to do that.  

[01:14:54] Unknown:

I mean, in a sense, it could be that Ikyulys   so, like, Ikyulys in this story, I didn't say this. Right? But Ikyulys could be   the betting markets.  

[01:15:05] Unknown:

Yes. I by the way, if if if if you don't mind, let me just interject and say to anyone that doesn't isn't familiar with Rob with Rob Hamilton. He just did a really good rip on this exact topic. What Bitcoin did.   Excellent.  

[01:15:19] Unknown:

I have to say I had about six minutes left on that when   I saw the mic interview   and I finished it. I was like, no. I'm finishing   this I'm finishing the what bitcoin did with Rob   before I do before I move on to this mic.   Good man. Good man. It was excellent. I'm not a fan. It really was. I'm not a fan of,   just not a fan at all of that show.   But Yeah. Me me neither. But that was an excellent interview. It's good as it gets. And you know what? Can I just say,   I'm off I'm off the game hench thing right now?   Mhmm.  

Rob, there's no I mean, he Rob put on a fucking clink about what it is to be a good faith arguer  

[01:16:02] Unknown:

in that. Yep.   He really did.   He made no mistakes. So Like, he handled every topic perfectly in my opinion.   So  

[01:16:13] Unknown:

if there is another source of knowledge   and if Rob is climbing the mountain, it's the mountain   of the informa of the information that could be provided in the betting markets. Rob is trying to create essentially make he's trying to make these markets.   And I think Ikyulys in this story right? Ikyulys is like the god of the lasers, but they don't know who the fuck he is. Nobody's seen   him. The lore is that Colonel Fu that he lives that he lives in the mountain, but he was he was the mountain.  

[01:16:42] Unknown:

He was the mountain. That's correct. Okay.  

[01:16:47] Unknown:

And, we'll we'll get we'll we'll get to that in a second. So I think we covered it pretty good.   Last one, I I said I said Satoshi, Ezekiel is laughing his ass off at how Bitcoin survived yet another futile attempt to coop it.   But maybe, like, the spirit of Satoshi really does live in these betting markets. Like, it's in the it's in the desire of man. Like, can you signal that really the desire of man? Because that's really what matters in these situations. We're talking game theory now.   Mhmm. Right? Like, you know, it's one thing to complain. It's one thing to try have a revolution.   Right? It's another thing to in in the way it works in Bitcoin is you gauge interest.  



[01:17:27] Unknown:

Right? Mhmm.  

[01:17:29] Unknown:

It's like because in Bitcoin, might makes right.   And the strong the longest chain, the strongest chain   is what wins. It's programmed. It's programmed. Pretty simple. Yep. There's no debate about it. Mhmm.   Right?   So if you can do anything to signal   interest and what people are going to do, right?   You know, I mean,   they're trying to do it on podcast, but the best way in Bitcoin to do it is by putting   is by putting money behind it. Yeah. Put your money where your mouth is. Certainly how it was done in the past,   and it's how human beings it's how human beings do it.  



[01:18:13] Unknown:

Yeah. Unless it's fiat. Unless it's fiat, then you can just print some and and go to war, you know, without without without agreement.   You know?   So it's this whole thing, I think, is   is is interesting how it kinda reflects back on itself.  

[01:18:28] Unknown:

So I think Ikkulus is, like, the spirit of Satoshi where, you know, you know, is which is, like, okay, if you're gonna fork this thing,   let's let's signal who's gonna do what.   Mhmm. Right?   And   let's try to get information. And that's like a it's almost like that's the closest thing to a higher power we have right now. You know, a higher power, a higher source of intelligence, a higher source of information.   And then I so then I I close with saying   Colonel Forbin climbed the mountain feeling his finger wrap   his fingers. That was the lyric and his fingers wrapped around knotted roots.  

And, you know, isn't I said not what did I say? Knots is the access up the mountain to Ickalus. I mean, I don't know. What you know, I there is a lyric about knotted roots. So Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. I have to acknowledge that. Maybe, you know, this was all foretold.   You know, I've said this a lot that, you know, Fish's lyrics don't discriminate,   like,   they don't discriminate   good versus bad or   or, you know,   benevolent spirits versus evil spirits because you just look at the name of the band that this they they channeled something fairly evil unknowingly   completely. Right? So, like Yep.  

You know, we'd never know really what the signal is saying in these lyrics, but they're there. So I gotta acknowledge it.  

[01:19:58] Unknown:

You know? And and I'll I I added some other copy as I scroll down, which was, I don't know if you have this in front of you, but,   the possum represents the fragile version of Bitcoin   that   one side of this argument is imagining.  

[01:20:15] Unknown:

Yes. Did I say that? Or is that Mhmm. Did I said that?   That was you. Okay. Yeah. That sounds like something. Tell her that. Because,   you know, in the essay,   it was I related the possum to the I said from it was the section called from the possum to the honey badger. Yes. And then the honey badger doesn't mean it's it's it's end in the road. Yeah. The honey badger like, if Bitcoin's a honey badger,   right,   possum represents the futile is is the futile. Is the so this there's a song called Possum   that just gets run over by a car   Yep. And it's end as the road,   and that's it. And the song, like, it's part of the story of Game Hands. Ridiculous   is on some mountain laughing,   Just laughs   at the fact   that an animal's getting killed.  



[01:21:06] Unknown:

Yes.  

[01:21:07] Unknown:

What kind of twisted   what kind of twisted god is this, really? Mhmm.  

[01:21:13] Unknown:

Of these stupid One with a sense of one with a sense of humor, it sounds like. One with a sense of humor. Yeah. Right. I mean,  

[01:21:20] Unknown:

the   so   the awesome contrast with the honey badger and really this this crusade   that, these people are on   is derived out of a genuine belief that,   Bitcoin is fragile,   not antifragile,   and that, you know, that the world is over if we they don't do this.   What do you think?   That's  

[01:21:52] Unknown:

not kidding. Yeah. I mean You know. I mean, I think I think kinda like what we did. Did. Yeah. I thought I like it. You you think you wanna cut it there?  

[01:22:02] Unknown:

I don't know. Feeling the second wind. I feel like we got Alright.   I feel like we have more to talk about, but maybe we don't.   I mean, certainly not on this subject. Maybe we should cut it.  

[01:22:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Cut it. I think what  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

we close with was pot is possum.  

[01:22:19] Unknown:

Yes.   Yes.   Alright. And, did you hit stop yet?  

[01:22:25] Unknown:

No. No.  

[01:22:27] Unknown:

No. I haven't done it yet.  

[01:22:31] Unknown:

Itchy Finger. Itchy Trigger Finger.   You gonna do it? Wait.   By the way, the song Wait, which I brought up, that was from Possum. Yeah.  

[01:22:41] Unknown:

Yes. It was a possum. Correct? Wait. Possum.  

[01:22:46] Unknown:

Wait. Alright. Alright. We'll stop.  

[01:32:56] Unknown:

Alright. We're gonna bring a very special friend of ours from around here, out here to play some songs with us. Very  

[01:33:02] Unknown:

excited   about   it.   Gordon  

[01:33:07] Unknown:

Stone,   let's   hear   it   for  

[01:33:35] Unknown:

Stop it out here? The rinse out here?