Fireside chat with prolific nostr and bitcoin dev Pablo in front of live audience at Nostriga in Riga.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn_WE1-bHdo
Pablo on Nostr: https://primal.net/pablof7z
ODELL on Nostr: https://primal.net/odell
website: https://citadeldispatch.com
nostr live chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/stream
nostr account: https://primal.net/odell
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@citadeldispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
(00:10) Introduction
(00:39) Controversy on Nostr Marketing
(02:23) Organic Outreach and Community Efforts
(04:00) Importance of User Interaction
(07:16) Live Debugging and Community Collaboration
(09:01) Bitcoiners' Engagement with Nostr
(12:04) Influencers and Platform Engagement
(14:35) Focus on Nostr for Success
[00:00:03]
ODELL:
Yo. Yo. Okay. Pablo's moderating this one. Welcome to the panel, Matt. You wanna introduce yourself for the people that don't know you. Thanks thanks for having me. I'm the guy who posts in caps on Noster. By a show of hands, who is, who is all in on Noster in this room? Let's fucking go. I I noticed Jack didn't raise his hand. Maybe he'll delete his Twitter account later today. I think so. I I heard some rumors. So so there's been a little bit of controversy on on Noster recently about about marketing and about doing coordinated marketing, centrally planned marketing for Noster.
What are your thoughts on that?
[00:01:00] Pablo:
I mean, I I I hate the idea, to to put it bluntly. Yeah. I I I don't think a I think it's a it's a harmful endeavor if we were to do that. It could kind of paint the picture. It it would be difficult to differentiate a centralized marketing plan for a protocol, from a platform. It kind of feels like what a platform would do be able to do. So, a, I don't think we need it and, b, I think it would be very easily harmful. And how do we agree on the what's the, the message that we wanna thank you, sir. The message that we want to to to paint. So I I think this is just better left to to the margins to to be figured out at the edges.
The people that need and can benefit from No Sur will find it under the right, under the right narrative because it will be portrayed to them under the right light. So I I don't think we need to have a a one way of talking about what no sir is.
[00:02:14] ODELL:
So when you're when you're thinking about that, you mean, like, individual companies, projects, users will do their own organic outreach? Just like with relays. Yeah. Just like with what? With relays. Exactly. Who will run the relays? I mean, to that note, I just want to Marcy, can you just stand up real quick? Can we get a huge round of applause for Marcy for for putting this conference on her shoulders? She's very humble. She won't, if you see her around, just make sure you you tell her you appreciate her, because this wouldn't be possible without her, and many other volunteers, who made this happen.
The reason I brought up the beginning part about who is all in on Noster is because I think that is our single greatest asset as as a movement. It's it's it's a protocol. Yes. It's a technology project. But to me, it's very similar to Bitcoin in a lot of ways in that it's a movement of individuals that just want a better world. Right? And there's there's something to be said about our ride or dies. Like and that's not just developers. That's designers. That's users. That's people that actually put time and energy, scarce time and energy into this protocol. And I we have the best ride or dies. Like, I mean, we had I watched the rabble presentation earlier.
Alex just got off stage with Ditto. Like, it we we have there's dozens of us. There's there's thousands of people that really, really care and have have dedicated significant time to this thing, and that's that's what really is gonna push this thing forward. And that trend is just keeps growing. Like, it's it's hard for me to sit here and not be just incredibly optimistic on this movement. Like, I all the haters are gonna be damned. Right?
[00:04:13] Pablo:
Yeah. I I I get a lot of, whenever I I I release something new or I'm working on whatever, a new spec or a new product or whatever, I get a lot of, oh, man. It's so cool that you what you're doing for for the protocol. I I wish I I I I could what can I do? Or how can I help? Or I wish I could be able to do the stuff that you're working on. And or and what the the what can I do? I get a lot of that question. And to me, a a product without people using the product is pointless. So the the people using behind the product, the people using the product, that is the life of the product. So you interacting with the protocol, you interacting with all the tools, you being there, you bringing the energy. That is the life. That is the most important part to me. You actually said this a couple of days ago that the way to to, what did you say a couple of days ago? That the the way to promote to you say a lot of things.
The the way to promote NoStar is being a NoStar. Just use the fucking thing. Just use the thing. Just use the thing. And I think one one of the things that we can do that is way better than than than a marketing, initiative is use all the other stuff, especially, like, bring life to to the whole spectrum of, of of tools and applications that that we have because we have a very rich ecosystem. And I think one of the best ways to support a developer, if you're not Jack, is using the things, giving feedback to the things, is interacting, finding the bugs. That is so important for for a developer that is just slaving away on a on a code base for tens and tens of hours each week or each day, and and then no one cares.
Just bringing that life and bringing that exposure that is super valuable. I mean, I think one of the really cool things is,
[00:06:08] ODELL:
like, the feedback mechanism is you using the protocol too. Like, if you run into issues, that could just be a nostril nostril note in itself. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I I have a lot of ideas on on how we can,
[00:06:22] Pablo:
the developers can say and users can say this application can do this thing. And we can do it in a very simple way within the the the protocol itself. And we can have conversations around, say, Amethyst supports live streams and BitTorrent could say, within the protocol, Amethyst supports live streams. And then if there is a bug, you could respond to that event and have a conversation. Now your shit is broken, man.
[00:06:46] ODELL:
No. I've literally had Zap streams where Kieran is in the live chat debugging the Zap stream issue while we're live. It's the ultimate we'll do it live. It's it's a special beast. That that is that is super rare. I I don't think people really appreciate how fucking awesome this community is. And that because it's a communication protocol, we're all able to literally just do it live, like, make it happen. So, I mean, by the way, guys, like, me and Pablo had a very, very rigid plan on this this conversation, and we've just completely diverted from that. We we're gonna just do this live, I guess.
Send back report. Pablo, I mean, what did you most I just the energy in this room just needs to like, we just gotta pump it up, guys. We got, like, 5 more hours, and now we're gonna party. What are you most excited about, Rhinny Aster?
[00:07:49] Pablo:
I'm I'm I'm very excited about bringing the the communities that are adjacent to the stuff that we care about. The stuff that we like, obviously, we've been like, the community has been seeded with the with Bitcoin, and that means the values of Bitcoin and which is kinda cool that a lot of piece of software has, like, emergent values. And I'm I'm very excited about, bringing in the people that are around that community, that that share these values. They they don't know they don't care so much about the censorship resistance, but they there are, shared values that that they would care about.
So to me, it's a lot about understanding their pain points and and and speaking to them in a one on one way, not in a let's create a marketing plan as a protocol.
[00:08:45] ODELL:
I mean so, I mean, my head is running in 2 different directions. First of all, during Raval's presentation, it was as a ride or die Bitcoiner before I was a ride or die Nostridge, like, I just love Bitcoin. This idea that people just hate Bitcoin and that's a negative, is kind of foreign to me. But after Rabel's presentation, I I completely respect it and understand it. And I kinda do like the idea of of just faking them into Bitcoin. He's just like, we're we're just gonna call it zaps. We're not gonna give them any context. It's just like units are just moving up on your posts, I guess. I like that idea. That's a cool idea. But on the opposite flip side, I'm incredibly disappointed with the Bitcoiners. Like, I just feel like we like, the Bitcoin community really hasn't stepped up to the occasion. Like, most of them are just doom scrolling on Twitter. Okay. Is Marty over there? I think Marty is is scrolling on Twitter right now, probably in a different room. He's not even in this room.
Do you share that disappointment? Is there a little bit of disappointment and frustration in your mind, or is it just my burnout talking? No. No. No. I mean, I I'm also burnt out, so
[00:09:59] Pablo:
we'll we'll share the burnout. But I I I do share it in a way. I I understand where it comes from, and I think it there is a lot of bullshitting, you know, like, with web 3 and all these things that sound kinda similar to to to, you know, like, for example. So, like, I said, a farcaster. Never tried it. Yeah. No. It's, I mean, it's pointless. Good for airdrops and shit like that. It's useless. But, but, but the Bitcoiners aren't using forecast. No. No. No. No. No. But but but they've heard that pitch so many times. Right? And I think Bitcoiners because we do require 100% consensus, like, on on what is the state of the chain. They they they extrapolate that need to everything.
And that's why they say, well, Solana will never work in a decentralized manner because the consensus must be kept. And with the throughput is so high that you will never be able to decentralize, which, of course. But, but NOC doesn't require that consensus. And I think they conceptually understand that, dude, it's okay for relays to have different data. It's okay for fragmentation to happen. It's good for fragmentation to happen, but they cannot really embrace that that is the fact. And that's I think that's where a lot of these,
[00:11:23] ODELL:
Derangement syndrome that they have with no, sir, comes from. Yeah. I mean, I think there's 2 pieces there. Like, during your conversation, earlier on stage with with Tidwell, a BitCorner I have a lot of respect for, I the technical Bitcorners, I think, tend to get stuck in this this headspace where it's like it's nothing is perfect. It's like just and they they have all these, like, edge cases that they're running through in their head, and they're just it's all these theories and, like, theoretical stuff, and they just don't wanna just do it live and just rip it live. Because rightfully so, a lot of technical Bitcoiners are incredibly conservative. You're building the base of a global financial network. You should be very conservative in development. I think that's completely different with Noster and one of the reasons why it's so much fun, to to work in this ecosystem.
So you have that side on the technical Bitcoin side, and I think we're gonna prove them wrong, and I think they mostly come from a good place. And then you have, like, Bitcoin Twitter influencers that really do not share a lot of our same values and are just in it for the engagement, and they don't wanna leave their engagement. And what I found a lot of success on is you target their engagement. Like, if you get if you get the plebs that are liking their posts and reposting them because retweets don't exist anymore, and you get them to move all in on Nostra and they go Nostra only, then their engagement suffers and we just starve out the beast. And I think that's been working. Like, from what I hear, like, Twitter engagement on Bitcoin Twitter is way down, and it's because the ride or dies are all moving to Noster, and then the influencers will move over later. And that's fine with me. I think that's completely fine. They can be the laggards. Yeah. Yeah. Let them be less. The Think Boys can stay Yeah. They could have Noster at the price they deserve. Right? 100%. Yeah. Damn right. Let's fucking go.
So thank you everyone who's participated in starving them out. Each one of you do make a difference.
[00:13:24] Pablo:
Yeah. And one one thing is that that I think we are our energy, and we have a limited amount of time. And if you're putting your energy on Twitter, you are feeding Twitter. If you're putting it on TikTok You're the product. You are the product. And and you are feeding collaborator. You're, like, you're
[00:13:41] ODELL:
preserving their business model and their predatory practices.
[00:13:45] Pablo:
Yeah. It's it's I mean, it's like not that I'm saying that you shouldn't, but maybe you shouldn't. It's like paying taxes. Right? You are feeding the enemy. I'm not I'm not an American, so I'm okay, I think. But you are you are feeding the beast. So within the law within the law, you should do your best to pay the least amount of taxes possible. Maybe 0.
[00:14:10] ODELL:
I mean, there is something interesting there, and they're about to beep at me, but I'm also the next panel too.
[00:14:17] Pablo:
They're beeping at me. Yeah.
[00:14:19] ODELL:
There there's there's something to be said there, about, we had Paul we had Paul up here earlier talking about how he when he when he talks about when he uses different social media platforms, he has to have a different strategy with each social media platform. And there there is some there is there is actual, like, historical case studies, that influencers are more successful if they focus on a single platform because they understand how it works and and they really focus on it and their energy and time is spent on that. And I think it's if we're if we're trying to move people over to Nostr, there's really something to be said about being incredibly focused on just Nastr.
And as a result, you actually live it. You're actually part of it, and you're actually engaged in it, rather than letting all these other things zap your time and zap your your energy.
[00:15:13] Pablo:
Yeah. I I I think one one thing is that within the platforms obviously, you cannot just access all the data because there is too much data. So algorithms are are a must with regards to to TikTok and Instagram and and Twitter. It it it is required. So so but but the only input that, that someone publishing, an influencer or whoever publishing on these platforms, the only input into the algorithm is getting you to like, getting you to subscribe, getting you to comment the stupid faces on the YouTube thumbnails. It's it's the only input that they have. So because they have such little agency, that's all they can do and they, like, all these people are reduced to saying, please like, comment, and subscribe, which is so pathetic.
[00:16:04] ODELL:
It's so bad. But if you're watching the livestream on YouTube, consider liking and subscribing and sharing it with your audience. We would really appreciate that. Can we add a huge round of applause for Bob Love? Thank you. Matt's gonna
Yo. Yo. Okay. Pablo's moderating this one. Welcome to the panel, Matt. You wanna introduce yourself for the people that don't know you. Thanks thanks for having me. I'm the guy who posts in caps on Noster. By a show of hands, who is, who is all in on Noster in this room? Let's fucking go. I I noticed Jack didn't raise his hand. Maybe he'll delete his Twitter account later today. I think so. I I heard some rumors. So so there's been a little bit of controversy on on Noster recently about about marketing and about doing coordinated marketing, centrally planned marketing for Noster.
What are your thoughts on that?
[00:01:00] Pablo:
I mean, I I I hate the idea, to to put it bluntly. Yeah. I I I don't think a I think it's a it's a harmful endeavor if we were to do that. It could kind of paint the picture. It it would be difficult to differentiate a centralized marketing plan for a protocol, from a platform. It kind of feels like what a platform would do be able to do. So, a, I don't think we need it and, b, I think it would be very easily harmful. And how do we agree on the what's the, the message that we wanna thank you, sir. The message that we want to to to paint. So I I think this is just better left to to the margins to to be figured out at the edges.
The people that need and can benefit from No Sur will find it under the right, under the right narrative because it will be portrayed to them under the right light. So I I don't think we need to have a a one way of talking about what no sir is.
[00:02:14] ODELL:
So when you're when you're thinking about that, you mean, like, individual companies, projects, users will do their own organic outreach? Just like with relays. Yeah. Just like with what? With relays. Exactly. Who will run the relays? I mean, to that note, I just want to Marcy, can you just stand up real quick? Can we get a huge round of applause for Marcy for for putting this conference on her shoulders? She's very humble. She won't, if you see her around, just make sure you you tell her you appreciate her, because this wouldn't be possible without her, and many other volunteers, who made this happen.
The reason I brought up the beginning part about who is all in on Noster is because I think that is our single greatest asset as as a movement. It's it's it's a protocol. Yes. It's a technology project. But to me, it's very similar to Bitcoin in a lot of ways in that it's a movement of individuals that just want a better world. Right? And there's there's something to be said about our ride or dies. Like and that's not just developers. That's designers. That's users. That's people that actually put time and energy, scarce time and energy into this protocol. And I we have the best ride or dies. Like, I mean, we had I watched the rabble presentation earlier.
Alex just got off stage with Ditto. Like, it we we have there's dozens of us. There's there's thousands of people that really, really care and have have dedicated significant time to this thing, and that's that's what really is gonna push this thing forward. And that trend is just keeps growing. Like, it's it's hard for me to sit here and not be just incredibly optimistic on this movement. Like, I all the haters are gonna be damned. Right?
[00:04:13] Pablo:
Yeah. I I I get a lot of, whenever I I I release something new or I'm working on whatever, a new spec or a new product or whatever, I get a lot of, oh, man. It's so cool that you what you're doing for for the protocol. I I wish I I I I could what can I do? Or how can I help? Or I wish I could be able to do the stuff that you're working on. And or and what the the what can I do? I get a lot of that question. And to me, a a product without people using the product is pointless. So the the people using behind the product, the people using the product, that is the life of the product. So you interacting with the protocol, you interacting with all the tools, you being there, you bringing the energy. That is the life. That is the most important part to me. You actually said this a couple of days ago that the way to to, what did you say a couple of days ago? That the the way to promote to you say a lot of things.
The the way to promote NoStar is being a NoStar. Just use the fucking thing. Just use the thing. Just use the thing. And I think one one of the things that we can do that is way better than than than a marketing, initiative is use all the other stuff, especially, like, bring life to to the whole spectrum of, of of tools and applications that that we have because we have a very rich ecosystem. And I think one of the best ways to support a developer, if you're not Jack, is using the things, giving feedback to the things, is interacting, finding the bugs. That is so important for for a developer that is just slaving away on a on a code base for tens and tens of hours each week or each day, and and then no one cares.
Just bringing that life and bringing that exposure that is super valuable. I mean, I think one of the really cool things is,
[00:06:08] ODELL:
like, the feedback mechanism is you using the protocol too. Like, if you run into issues, that could just be a nostril nostril note in itself. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I I have a lot of ideas on on how we can,
[00:06:22] Pablo:
the developers can say and users can say this application can do this thing. And we can do it in a very simple way within the the the protocol itself. And we can have conversations around, say, Amethyst supports live streams and BitTorrent could say, within the protocol, Amethyst supports live streams. And then if there is a bug, you could respond to that event and have a conversation. Now your shit is broken, man.
[00:06:46] ODELL:
No. I've literally had Zap streams where Kieran is in the live chat debugging the Zap stream issue while we're live. It's the ultimate we'll do it live. It's it's a special beast. That that is that is super rare. I I don't think people really appreciate how fucking awesome this community is. And that because it's a communication protocol, we're all able to literally just do it live, like, make it happen. So, I mean, by the way, guys, like, me and Pablo had a very, very rigid plan on this this conversation, and we've just completely diverted from that. We we're gonna just do this live, I guess.
Send back report. Pablo, I mean, what did you most I just the energy in this room just needs to like, we just gotta pump it up, guys. We got, like, 5 more hours, and now we're gonna party. What are you most excited about, Rhinny Aster?
[00:07:49] Pablo:
I'm I'm I'm very excited about bringing the the communities that are adjacent to the stuff that we care about. The stuff that we like, obviously, we've been like, the community has been seeded with the with Bitcoin, and that means the values of Bitcoin and which is kinda cool that a lot of piece of software has, like, emergent values. And I'm I'm very excited about, bringing in the people that are around that community, that that share these values. They they don't know they don't care so much about the censorship resistance, but they there are, shared values that that they would care about.
So to me, it's a lot about understanding their pain points and and and speaking to them in a one on one way, not in a let's create a marketing plan as a protocol.
[00:08:45] ODELL:
I mean so, I mean, my head is running in 2 different directions. First of all, during Raval's presentation, it was as a ride or die Bitcoiner before I was a ride or die Nostridge, like, I just love Bitcoin. This idea that people just hate Bitcoin and that's a negative, is kind of foreign to me. But after Rabel's presentation, I I completely respect it and understand it. And I kinda do like the idea of of just faking them into Bitcoin. He's just like, we're we're just gonna call it zaps. We're not gonna give them any context. It's just like units are just moving up on your posts, I guess. I like that idea. That's a cool idea. But on the opposite flip side, I'm incredibly disappointed with the Bitcoiners. Like, I just feel like we like, the Bitcoin community really hasn't stepped up to the occasion. Like, most of them are just doom scrolling on Twitter. Okay. Is Marty over there? I think Marty is is scrolling on Twitter right now, probably in a different room. He's not even in this room.
Do you share that disappointment? Is there a little bit of disappointment and frustration in your mind, or is it just my burnout talking? No. No. No. I mean, I I'm also burnt out, so
[00:09:59] Pablo:
we'll we'll share the burnout. But I I I do share it in a way. I I understand where it comes from, and I think it there is a lot of bullshitting, you know, like, with web 3 and all these things that sound kinda similar to to to, you know, like, for example. So, like, I said, a farcaster. Never tried it. Yeah. No. It's, I mean, it's pointless. Good for airdrops and shit like that. It's useless. But, but, but the Bitcoiners aren't using forecast. No. No. No. No. No. But but but they've heard that pitch so many times. Right? And I think Bitcoiners because we do require 100% consensus, like, on on what is the state of the chain. They they they extrapolate that need to everything.
And that's why they say, well, Solana will never work in a decentralized manner because the consensus must be kept. And with the throughput is so high that you will never be able to decentralize, which, of course. But, but NOC doesn't require that consensus. And I think they conceptually understand that, dude, it's okay for relays to have different data. It's okay for fragmentation to happen. It's good for fragmentation to happen, but they cannot really embrace that that is the fact. And that's I think that's where a lot of these,
[00:11:23] ODELL:
Derangement syndrome that they have with no, sir, comes from. Yeah. I mean, I think there's 2 pieces there. Like, during your conversation, earlier on stage with with Tidwell, a BitCorner I have a lot of respect for, I the technical Bitcorners, I think, tend to get stuck in this this headspace where it's like it's nothing is perfect. It's like just and they they have all these, like, edge cases that they're running through in their head, and they're just it's all these theories and, like, theoretical stuff, and they just don't wanna just do it live and just rip it live. Because rightfully so, a lot of technical Bitcoiners are incredibly conservative. You're building the base of a global financial network. You should be very conservative in development. I think that's completely different with Noster and one of the reasons why it's so much fun, to to work in this ecosystem.
So you have that side on the technical Bitcoin side, and I think we're gonna prove them wrong, and I think they mostly come from a good place. And then you have, like, Bitcoin Twitter influencers that really do not share a lot of our same values and are just in it for the engagement, and they don't wanna leave their engagement. And what I found a lot of success on is you target their engagement. Like, if you get if you get the plebs that are liking their posts and reposting them because retweets don't exist anymore, and you get them to move all in on Nostra and they go Nostra only, then their engagement suffers and we just starve out the beast. And I think that's been working. Like, from what I hear, like, Twitter engagement on Bitcoin Twitter is way down, and it's because the ride or dies are all moving to Noster, and then the influencers will move over later. And that's fine with me. I think that's completely fine. They can be the laggards. Yeah. Yeah. Let them be less. The Think Boys can stay Yeah. They could have Noster at the price they deserve. Right? 100%. Yeah. Damn right. Let's fucking go.
So thank you everyone who's participated in starving them out. Each one of you do make a difference.
[00:13:24] Pablo:
Yeah. And one one thing is that that I think we are our energy, and we have a limited amount of time. And if you're putting your energy on Twitter, you are feeding Twitter. If you're putting it on TikTok You're the product. You are the product. And and you are feeding collaborator. You're, like, you're
[00:13:41] ODELL:
preserving their business model and their predatory practices.
[00:13:45] Pablo:
Yeah. It's it's I mean, it's like not that I'm saying that you shouldn't, but maybe you shouldn't. It's like paying taxes. Right? You are feeding the enemy. I'm not I'm not an American, so I'm okay, I think. But you are you are feeding the beast. So within the law within the law, you should do your best to pay the least amount of taxes possible. Maybe 0.
[00:14:10] ODELL:
I mean, there is something interesting there, and they're about to beep at me, but I'm also the next panel too.
[00:14:17] Pablo:
They're beeping at me. Yeah.
[00:14:19] ODELL:
There there's there's something to be said there, about, we had Paul we had Paul up here earlier talking about how he when he when he talks about when he uses different social media platforms, he has to have a different strategy with each social media platform. And there there is some there is there is actual, like, historical case studies, that influencers are more successful if they focus on a single platform because they understand how it works and and they really focus on it and their energy and time is spent on that. And I think it's if we're if we're trying to move people over to Nostr, there's really something to be said about being incredibly focused on just Nastr.
And as a result, you actually live it. You're actually part of it, and you're actually engaged in it, rather than letting all these other things zap your time and zap your your energy.
[00:15:13] Pablo:
Yeah. I I I think one one thing is that within the platforms obviously, you cannot just access all the data because there is too much data. So algorithms are are a must with regards to to TikTok and Instagram and and Twitter. It it it is required. So so but but the only input that, that someone publishing, an influencer or whoever publishing on these platforms, the only input into the algorithm is getting you to like, getting you to subscribe, getting you to comment the stupid faces on the YouTube thumbnails. It's it's the only input that they have. So because they have such little agency, that's all they can do and they, like, all these people are reduced to saying, please like, comment, and subscribe, which is so pathetic.
[00:16:04] ODELL:
It's so bad. But if you're watching the livestream on YouTube, consider liking and subscribing and sharing it with your audience. We would really appreciate that. Can we add a huge round of applause for Bob Love? Thank you. Matt's gonna
Introduction
Controversy on Nostr Marketing
Organic Outreach and Community Efforts
Importance of User Interaction
Live Debugging and Community Collaboration
Bitcoiners' Engagement with Nostr
Influencers and Platform Engagement
Focus on Nostr for Success
