Gigi is a bitcoiner and software engineer who writes words and code for Bitcoin. Since filming this conversation Gigi has joined me in our mission at OpenSats and leads our operations.
ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED TO YOUTUBE FEBRUARY 2023: https://youtu.be/6Tr4-DL1c1s
FILMED MAY 2022.
(00:00:01) Introducing Gigi
(00:00:37) What does freedom mean to Gigi?
(00:01:52) Is there a disconnect between the West and other countries?
(00:03:20) The importance of freedom of speech
(00:06:50) Can you have freedom without privacy?
(00:11:40) Being a public figure and being pro-privacy
(00:15:07) Is the panopticon already built?
(00:18:43) The freedom to protest
(00:19:55) How to start improving your privacy
(00:25:36) Children being born under a surveillance state
(00:30:18) Why is Bitcoin important?
(00:32:58) Concerns with the current state of Bitcoin
(00:36:27) Is the success of Bitcoin inevitable?
(00:40:38) Introducing people to Bitcoin
(00:42:16) Why does Bitcoin education matter?
(00:44:23) Would Gigi change anything about his Bitcoin journey?
(00:47:38) The future of content
[00:00:01]
Unknown:
Every year, the Human Rights Foundation hosts the Oslo Freedom Forum, an event for human rights activists from all over the world. This May, in Norway, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Gigi. Gigi is a Bitcoiner and software engineer who writes words and code for Bitcoin. His first book, 21 Lessons, is one of the most recommended books among Bitcoiners. He's launched various projects in the Bitcoin space and is now currently working on his second book, 21 ways. His main focus is on privacy, security, free software, and education. When you think about freedom, what does that mean to you?
[00:00:42] Unknown:
Well, that's a good question to start it off, I think. I think if you don't have any freedom, you will notice it immediately, and we we take so many things for granted. And I think, first of all, it doesn't mean that you're absolutely free to do what you want, you know? Like, you're you you shouldn't be free to go on a killing spree without consequences. But I think, in general, you should be free to think what you want and free to say what you want. And also, within reason, free to do what you want, you know? Like, there is this saying, my freedom to swing my arm ends at your face, basically. So, yeah, I think when I think about freedom, I think mostly about all the important rights that we landed on, you know, like freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and, you know, also freedom to kind of construct your life as you see fit as you wish. So that would be one answer, I guess.
[00:01:53] Unknown:
Do you feel that there is a disconnect between people maybe that live in western countries that are more free versus other countries where, they might have authoritarian governments or be living less free world?
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Oh, I mean, definitely. I think most people are not aware, especially if you're living in a more or less free country in in one of the Western countries. Most people are not aware how bad it is around the world and how unfree some people are and, like, how some of the regimes function. And, I mean, we're here at the Freedom Forum and just listen to those kind of stories and the various hells that people went through, and you will understand very, very quickly. And I always like the kind of There are a couple of tests that will immediately open your eyes to how free you are or you aren't. For example, are you free to make fun of the leader of your country?
And there are some countries where you just can't do that because you you'll you'll immediately land in jail or worse. And I think a lot of people in the west don't realize this, that that this is reality for a lot of people, that you you can't even make fun of someone. Like, your life will be in danger if you make fun of the wrong person, so to speak.
[00:03:20] Unknown:
So, I mean, you do a lot of work in the education space both in bitcoin, freedom, and privacy. How do you go about reasoning with people or helping them understand, you know, the lack of freedom that other people might be going through? Like, how do you get them to really feel that?
[00:03:41] Unknown:
I I always try to kind of start from first principles and and reason up from there. And it's, for example, with freedom of speech, it's the only thing that we have to course correct our society, to figure out what we are doing wrong and trying to fix that and trying to do it better. Once you start censoring people, once you can't say certain things or talk about certain things or certain people, certain situations, certain concepts, then you're already down a very weird and dark path because there is no other way to fixing things and course correcting all our actions without talking about it and without being able to talk about it and figuring out the best way.
And in the end, we only have, like, as a as a con like, humans are networked beings. And as, like, a network organism, the only way we have is by talking about things and trying to figure stuff out. There's either that or immediately you land on violence. If you if you cannot talk it through and reason about it and find the best solution that everyone is willing to work towards voluntarily, you immediately like, the only other option that you have is violence. So it's it's either freedom of speech or violence. And, like, that's a kind of first principle first principles approach to make people understand how important this is. Like, most people don't think about these things properly. Like, they they're like, you can't say that because people will get offended and so on. Like, that's not that's not what this is about. Freedom of speech is not about offending people. It's not about being able to say stuff to offend someone.
That's like a byproduct and something that we need to deal with. That's something that, you know, like, you we are I love to take the risk to being offended because everything else would be worse. You know? Like, silencing speech is way worse. And, yeah, I think we have to think about those things properly and deeply because we went through all those kind of various hells before. I mean, just take a glance at history, and you will see how bad things truly can get once you remove these freedoms and and these rights that are enshrined in the various documents that we drafted over, you know, 100 and 1000 of years.
And, I mean, we still have places where, you know, like, you don't even have to look at history. You just have to look at, I mean, look at China, for example, you know, it's even though it's it's it's a very prosperous country over over the last, you know, decades, they did very well economically in some regards, but it's not a very free country, and you don't have to kind of, you know, look for long to to see what happens and what kind of authoritarian regimes and housecapes open up if you remove basic freedoms like freedom of speech and so on.
[00:06:51] Unknown:
Do you think you can have freedom without privacy? No.
[00:06:56] Unknown:
Just straight up no. Straight up no. You need you need the freedom. You need you need at least the privacy of your own home so that you can think what you want and say what you want and discuss things that are currently off topic. Like that, by off topic, I mean that are basically outside of the Overton window. Like, every every revolution was always, you know, by definition, everything that improves societies outside of the norm. It was always it's it's forbidden to talk about this. It's it's kind of, you know, even forbidden to think those things. Just think about the Gutenberg revolution. Think about, you know, like, abolishing slavery.
You need you need the privacy of your own home to meet with someone else and discuss those things and and talk it through. And even even even for yourself, you need the privacy of your own home at least to think through things by yourself, to write about things for example and so on. Like writing writing, as far as I'm concerned, is thinking about things properly. And so I don't think there is any freedom without privacy. Basically, another way of saying the same thing is that surveillance makes all other freedoms useless, and you can immediately tell this just by, you know, watch at people I mean, everyone knows this, you know, watch at people at how they be how they behave if they think they are not being surveilled, and then you tell them or you show them that there was a camera or or something all along, they immediately change their behavior. Everything changes.
So, yeah, again, surveillance makes all other freedoms useless.
[00:08:35] Unknown:
I mean, we're seeing surveillance grow throughout the world as especially as we move to a more digital world. A lot of times that is is by actual people choosing to be surveilled for a convenience, advantage and a lot of times it's for governments doing it. We see kids being born into surveillance. Is this something that concerns you? Is this something that should concern everybody?
[00:09:01] Unknown:
Yeah, it definitely concerns me. I think what what every what everyone should think long and hard about is these systems once they are built, that people can take over almost immediately, very easily. Often times these systems, like, these these systems of convenience and surveillance and so on, I mean, we see it with automated passport control, those kind of things, you know, it's it's it's all it's all fine and it's all very convenient if you actually like and agree with the people in power that are controlling the system and that are currently in charge of building these systems out and so on.
But I mean, again, one quick glance at history and you can see how quickly things change, and suddenly you have an insane dictator in power, and he has access to those kind of systems. And then things can get really, really bad, really quickly. And I think everyone that's why everyone should be concerned and also why everyone should kind of take incremental steps of increasing their privacy and their, like, data footprint and those kind of things. I think it is just proper digital hygiene. That's that's one thing. Like, that's one way to think about it.
And I think it will be increasingly important depending on your situation and, like, where you live, what you're doing, what kind of situations you're presented with. Yeah. I think everyone will have to care about this in one way or or another. I think that's the that's the world we're living in currently, and you will be faced with a situation where you probably wish that you had more privacy or where you're forced to do things privately, like if you have to flee your country for example, those kinds of things, then yeah, you need to take care of those things, otherwise your life will be in danger. And I mean, again, just look at all the cases that are presented here at the Oslo Freedom Forum. There are people dissidents and journalists and people in really bad situations.
They need to, like, even even when you're speaking up, you need you need to have the option to be private and to use a pseudonym and be anonymous and write about the people in power in a way where you cannot be immediately squashed, for example, and so on. So I think that's all of that is very important.
[00:11:40] Unknown:
I mean, similar to me, you are a public figure that advocates for privacy. I often hear people say that it's it's hypocritical to do that, that you can't be both public and be pro privacy. How do you battle with that balance?
[00:12:00] Unknown:
Well, I think it's kind of a spectrum how much you wanna let the public know about you. And, again, privacy is not secrecy. It's privacy is about selectively revealing yourself to the world, you know, to quote Eric Hios. And that's exactly right, like, many people know many things about me, but it just kind of, you know, it should it shouldn't be it should be harder than, like, 10 seconds on Google or whatever search engine you're using to find out exactly all of your past, where you're currently living, and what you're up to, and so on, I believe.
And that's kind of my goal in in showing that that this is also possible. Like you can actually you can be private online if you want to be. And I also I want to normalize privacy. I want to normalize, pseudonyms as well. I mean, I love how this was completely normal and still is in the gaming world, for example. Like, you don't like your name, you spin up a new one. You don't like your name, you don't like your avatar, you change it. And of course you know like this hangs together with identity and reputation and so on and like, all these things are currently being figured out. But I don't think that a Facebook world is a nice world to live live in where you have one identity and one image that defines you, and one name that defines you, and one kind of occupation, this is what you do, and so on. Like identity is, always was and always will be, prismatic.
You are multiple people in 1. Like at church you're a different kind of person than you are at at your like soccer club or what have you. Like you're a different kind of person at the bar than, like you know, like you are on your job, depending what you do of course. And those kind of things are important, and you cannot kind of like in a in a Facebook world, they want you to to believe that you only have this kind of identity and you use it for absolutely everything. And you're you're kind of the identity that your government gives you is not necessarily your identity.
I know many people where I don't even know their real names, you know, I don't even know their true names, I don't know their government names. I know their nymphs and I know those people very very well and I've been knowing them like I've known them for many many years, and I consider them my friends, and I think all of this should be normalized kind of like we we don't we shouldn't we shouldn't take steps towards building an insane panopticon. We should we should take steps to move away from this world, I believe. But isn't the panopticon already built? Well, to some extent, yes.
But I think more like I'm in general optimistic. I would consider myself an optimist even though I know how bad things are. But I think people are currently waking up how bad it actually is. I mean, we saw whole countries being completely deplatformed from the banking system, for example, like, with with the click of a button. And I I think we will see I was I think we will see these, thing things these things will happen more frequently. As it is easier to do this, it will happen more frequently. So the Panopticon is built in part, but it's not complete yet. Not everything is absolutely connected. Like, there are still some there's still some friction if you actually want to, I don't know, deplatform deplatform, certain religious group from all societal services, for example.
You cannot do this with one push of the button currently, worldwide definitely not. And I think we need to realize as a society that this is probably not a world we wanna live in. We don't we we should not continue to build up those systems, and we should take steps to tear down the existing systems and fight against this. Like, also speak out and also use technology that allows you to protect yourself, use encryption technology, don't give away your private information, don't give away any unnecessary information about yourself, And, yeah, I have an optimistic outlook about it. I think people will learn. The more people, like, the more people and the more countries and the more groups of people will get burned, the easier it will be to
[00:17:06] Unknown:
learn these things for them. Is that what gives you hope? That people will get burned and then they will learn?
[00:17:14] Unknown:
No, actually not. I think in general people are not stupid. That's what gives me hope. I don't believe in the stupid masses, you know. Messes can be be stupid and can behave in stupid ways and so on. But I think individuals are really smart, and I I view groups of people as just a bunch of individuals and they will figure it out and they will they will decide for themselves what is important. And again, I think people will realize that these kind of things are increasingly important. I mean, we see this you're you're self censoring and you're being deplatformed everywhere. Twitter is a great example. You know, like, you can't say certain things. You'll be banned immediately. Like, you'll you'll be in Twitter jail and so on. And I think there is a counter movement happening and people are kind of realizing how important it is to have open conversations, for example, and to have freedom of speech and freedom of thought and it's really important that you are able to say what you think even if this thing is stupid.
Everyone is stupid from time to time. We are we should be allowed to say wrong things and stupid things and offensive things. And I think we've learned this the hard way so many times. I hope that we don't have to learn it the hard way again, but well, again, I'm an optimist. We might have to learn it the hard way again. I hope not. I really hope not.
[00:18:43] Unknown:
Well, anyway, Gigi, you can't really see through your pillowcase, but we just had a Ukrainian protest walk through, I guess a pro Ukrainian protest, with the war going on. So obviously apologies to to you and all the the listeners if if that got picked up.
[00:19:01] Unknown:
Yeah. But that's a perfect example. You need to be you need to be free to protest, for example. That's that's another thing that's super important. These are the kind of freedoms we are talking about, and in part, that's also a great example from the privacy side of things. Like I encourage people to go protesting, but maybe think about what you bring with you. Like if you have your mobile phone, which is a live tracking device with you, depending on your situation, depending on the government, depending on the protest, it might be wiser to leave the phone at home and not build up a history that tracks you and your location and that you have been at the protest and so on. I mean, we saw this in Hong Kong and so on where people got burned by this.
[00:19:47] Unknown:
Right. I mean, we saw it in America too. They were using it during, a bunch of protests in America. They were tracking cell phones. Yeah.
[00:19:56] Unknown:
What,
[00:19:58] Unknown:
what would you say to So when I talk to people about privacy a lot of times what I hear is I'm already completely a part of the surveillance state, right? Like I use Facebook. I use Instagram. I use all the social media.
[00:20:16] Unknown:
I'm I'm already completely screwed. There's nothing I can do about it. What do you tell those people? There's there's always something you can do, and you you don't have to do it all at once. I I know it can be very overwhelming, and you have to take small steps in the right direction. That's the only way to do it. And, yeah, that might be true, but you can start by deleting your Facebook. Like, I can tell you, your quality of life will improve. But it depends on your situation of course, you know. For some people Facebook is the Internet. But it's you know, like do you again, every situation is different. For every individual, it will be different. But you're free, for example, to build up a second persona, pseudonym. If you want to do reporting, if you want to write something, if you want to, for example, also publish a book, there's a reason why authors have pen names, you know, there's a reason for that.
Also, you know, of course in the music industry and so on there are many people that that use like different names as artists as their legal name and there are reasons for that. And you can do that, you can reduce the footprint of your legal identity and use a different identity. You can also like, switch ecosystems and use, for example, software that respects your privacy and software that respects your rights. And of course, there's the free software movement that is all about that, where you're free to use your compute as you wish. You're not the slave of your of your computer. You're not the slave of the system. Like, if you have a Facebook account, you're the slave of Facebook. They can do what they want. They can delete your account. They can delete your posts and so. And there are other there are other systems and other ways of doing things where this can never happen because you are in control and you're in charge. And with the money, for example, Bitcoin is the perfect example. If you use Bitcoin properly, no one can de bank you. No one can deplatform you. Your account can't be frozen. Your transactions can't be canceled. Like, if you know how to do this and how to use it properly, that's a step in the right direction. Then you are you have you're sovereign when it comes to your finances. And you can take small baby steps like your note taking app. Does it need to surveil you?
Do you need to use the Google note taking app? I don't think so. There are other there are other apps that are really good. Standard notes would be one of them. There are plenty others. And so just try to use encryption by default. Try to use messengers that are open source and that have strong encryption built in, those kind of things. And you can you can do this in a step by step fashion, like you don't have to do it all at once and do it right from day 1. That's impossible. You have to learn. You have to adapt, and you can, again, reduce the size of your of your footprint, of your online footprint, and you can, yeah, start to take care of your digital hygiene. It's very much like, you know, starting to work out and eating healthy. It's like step by step, little steps every single day. And before you know it, you will before you know it, this argument completely falls flat because suddenly you are more private.
Suddenly you're not you did not give everything away, you know. And your life can also change, like, it might be true that some entity or some government has all the information about you now, but, you know, like, where you live can change, where you work can change, your name can change, your situation can change, And you can change too. And you can you can learn to do this. You can learn to use use the tools, as to say. It's not impossible. I did it too. I'm still in the process. I'm still trying to do this in a better way, and I'm learning every day. And I think that's the only way to do it.
[00:23:56] Unknown:
So you didn't always have conversations with a pillowcase over your face?
[00:24:01] Unknown:
No. Not always. I also I usually wear a green suit, but, unfortunately, I didn't bring it. So this is like the poor man's green suit.
[00:24:09] Unknown:
We made it work. We made it work. I appreciate your privacy. You know, so I mean, I'm obviously doing a show, this show, about privacy and freedom, and my face is being shown, what do you think of that? Am I a dumbass?
[00:24:30] Unknown:
I don't think you're a dumbass. You can also shave your beard and no one will recognize you anymore, you know. Yeah. But also that. It's I mean magicians will tell you that, like you would be surprised what a fake mustache and a hat can do, Like people won't recognize you anymore. And I think people like we kind of moved away from a culture where this was more the norm, you know, everyone wearing a trench coat and a hat and sunglasses and just everyone kind of it was very easy to blend into a crowd and those kind of things. And currently, you know, like, it's everyone is taking selfies all the time and of course, you know, like, that not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just we live in a bit of a different culture now and people don't realize how like even if you're a public persona, I mean that's true for like very public people as well, there are ways to walk down the street without, you know, people recognizing you immediately. So you can do that, Matt.
Get a nice big hat,
[00:25:35] Unknown:
nice big sunglasses. What what do you think about children coming into this world right now?
[00:25:42] Unknown:
I couldn't hear it. More children, like, first first and foremost.
[00:25:48] Unknown:
But specifically this idea of this balance between digital all encompassing surveillance and being prepared for a digital world at the same time.
[00:26:02] Unknown:
I mean, I think the parents should be kind of at least not completely careless in in the sense that, you know, messing up your kids privacy from the get go. I also think it I feel like it changed a little bit. Maybe it's just for me. Maybe I'm I'm very biased in that regard, but but I feel like it it used to be that everyone was broadcasting all the information all the time, just, you know, like, posting it on Facebook and Instagram and so on. And, like, how we use Instagram, for example, changed, and how we use Facebook changed. And now I feel like it's more directed. It's more like people use more private channels, like sending pics of the kids on Whatsapp to certain groups and so on. I feel like, you know, as a society we are kind of figuring out how to do this in a way, sharing pictures and so on, that's not completely insane, you know, like just putting it online for absolutely everyone to see. Like this changed over the last 10, 15 years already.
And so I don't think that all is lost but you know they're also they're very frightening developments, kind of, from the privacy perspective. In the European Union, for example, they want to install spyware on audio devices that scan your pictures and your texts before they ever get encrypted, before they are even sent out. So every time you snap a picture, it's scanned. And people should just be aware of it. And, those are not great developments, to put put it mildly. But, yeah, it's it's kind of tricky because we are living in this I mean, we're all digital natives, and the kids definitely are. And so I don't think not using a smartphone, for example, is an option. I I think you you kind of have to you have to learn how to use those things, and, you know I think a good idea Adam Curry talked about this as well, that if you have kids try to teach them about the technology and show them that there are other things as well. You know? Like, show them what Linux is. Set up a Linux system. Play around with that. And, like, flash a different OS on a smartphone and let them, you know, learn those kind of things and and play around with it. Kids love this stuff. I mean, they love technology and just tinkering with stuff and figuring figuring shit out, and so I'm not I'm not too worried about it. But again, I think as parents, I hope that more and more parents are more careful with how they're handling, like, the digital traces,
[00:28:47] Unknown:
the digital bread crumbs that they leave all over the place. Do you think there's gonna be, like, a bit of a reckoning in that regard as these kids get older? Because this is the 1st generation that really has had has grown up with social media, that has grown up with, you know, maybe listening devices in their house whether that's Amazon or Google or whatnot.
[00:29:09] Unknown:
That's a good question. I don't know. I think in general, the kids will be alright. You know, I grew up playing computer games, violent ones, quote unquote. Like stuff like Doom and Duke Nukem and so on. And according to the mainstream media at the time, and that was a prevailing few for like 10 years plus, that if you play this for like multiple hours a day, you'll be a serial killer, you know. And it turns out not every gamer turned into a serial killer. It's just something that gaming got integrated into society completely. Like it's completely normal now. I still remember a time where it absolutely wasn't. You were a complete weirdo if you were playing computer games.
And so, I mean, I'm still kind of a weirdo, so there's that. But it's again, I think it will be fine. I think the kids will be alright and and they they will they will also learn I think they will learn how to handle those kind of things, and also the the ecosystems that are currently worrying us, I think they they will find a way around it, kind of. They they'll figure it out.
[00:30:19] Unknown:
So we met in the Bitcoin world.
[00:30:22] Unknown:
We did.
[00:30:24] Unknown:
A bunch of years ago. You obviously are very focused on Bitcoin. Why is Bitcoin important?
[00:30:31] Unknown:
Oh, I think bitcoin is the most important thing that's currently happening. Period. But especially if you care about freedom. Bitcoin is insanely important. Like all the people that are on a power trip and want to build authoritarian systems and want to build the Panopticons and so on, They can do this easily because, in my opinion, the money is broken and you can finance this very easily. If we were on a Bitcoin standard already, it would be very hard to finance those things. That's that's one reason why Bitcoin is important. Same is true for wars and so on. Like, it's very easy to finance those things currently with the the way the monetary system is set up. And I think I think Bitcoin is the return to a more sane and sound world.
That's my hope at least. And in the freedom realm, again, like if you use Bitcoin properly, no one can deplatform you, no one can cancel you, no one can freeze your account, no one can forcefully take the Bitcoin away from you, at least not remotely, you know. It's like a gold coin that you have in your pocket. It can be stolen, like, if if you if you find a person and so on. But that's also not entirely true because bitcoin what I love about bitcoin is it's just information. It has no physical body, so to speak. That's why you can have Bitcoin in your head, and you can literally have Bitcoin in your head. And, I mean, every Bitcoiner know knows this, but I feel like we don't talk about this fact often enough. You can have 12 words in your head.
You can have all your wealth, all your possessions stored in these 12 words in your head, and you can get stripped naked and run run across the border, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. And if you if you make it back to safety, you can enter these 12 words into like a hardware wallet or something, and you have access to all your wealth, and it's intact, And that's very powerful, and that's very important for freedom. We need tools like this that empower the individual again, and put the individual at the center. And that's what Bitcoin does.
[00:32:59] Unknown:
When you think about Bitcoin, what is your do you have any concerns with the current state of bitcoin? What is your biggest concern?
[00:33:09] Unknown:
Apathy. Apathy. That people don't
[00:33:15] Unknown:
care. Do people care?
[00:33:17] Unknown:
More and more people care, and that's very good to see. I think, you know, as the as the fiat system, the traditional monetary system, I think it's currently breaking down. And at this as this increases, the problems will increase, and more and more people will be waking up to the fact that Bitcoin is a viable alternative and a sound money alternative and something that you can just use and you will always have access to and no one can take it ever away from you. Bitcoin will always be there for you. That's people that like, people don't realize how profound this is, you know? In that sense, it's like gold, you know? Like, gold will always be there for you if you wanna use it. It It doesn't go away, you know, gold doesn't react to anything else. You can't destroy gold basically.
I think you also can't destroy Bitcoin, the same. The Bitcoin network will always be there for you. And what's also so powerful, if you're a dissident, for example, or a journalist or what have you, and you need to receive funds, all you need to do is lock yourself in a bathroom or something, some private place, and flip a coin a couple of times, and then you have a Bitcoin wallet. It's just some math after that, but you just need a large random number, and you can flip a coin 265 times, and you will have a valid Bitcoin wallet. That's all you need to do. That's that's why they call it permissionless. You don't need permission to do that. You can just do that, And you will always be able to do that. And that's why Bitcoin is so powerful. You can actually do this.
You can be in a prison cell and do this. You just need a way to communicate the output of this, like the the large number. You do some math, and then you have a Bitcoin address. And the Bitcoin address, you can put anywhere. You can put it on your Twitter profile and so on. And, of course, you know, like, currently, Bitcoin is still young. Like, there are some privacy implications with address reuse and so on. I don't think we need to get into this. This all of this is currently being figured out, you know? The example I always like to give for for those kind of shortcomings of the technology currently, if you will, is like it it took us 30 years to transition from a plain text Internet, HTTP to HTTPS.
That took us 30 years, and it took also on a societal level, like people didn't care. Cryptographers cared, but people didn't. It took someone like Edward Snowden to show the people why this is important, why we need encryption online. If everything is in plain text, that's a really bad idea, you know, for example, with the Internet. And, yeah, we it took a long time for for us to really take this seriously and and figure it out. And I don't think it will take as long as as the time with with Bitcoin. I think people will figure out quicker how important Bitcoin is, because money is kind of the most important thing in when it comes to your survival.
It's really, really hard to survive if you have zero money or the money breaks down. And so, yeah, Bitcoin is, again, the most important thing that's currently going on, in my opinion.
[00:36:27] Unknown:
Do you think the success of Bitcoin is inevitable?
[00:36:32] Unknown:
Inevitable is a very big word, but, yeah, I do. I kind of do. I think the cat is out of the bag and, you know, bitcoin kind of takes human greed and transform transforms it into freedom. That's what it does. That's why it works so well. There are a lot of greedy people in the world, and they use Bitcoin, and they will continue to use Bitcoin. And by using Bitcoin, they empower everyone else that uses Bitcoin for freedom.
[00:37:12] Unknown:
It is pretty astounding that Bitcoin is designed from the ground up to assume that all actors will act greedy and in their own best interests. Is there any other systems that we have that act that way?
[00:37:28] Unknown:
I don't know. I think I often I often think of Bitcoin as, like, a living, breathing thing, as, like, a cybernetic organism, if you if you if you want. And I think a lot of things in nature, while they are like life is always self interested in a way, you know, like there's the idea of the selfish gene and so on, but it's still like all of life is symbiotic. It's not purely self interest in a sense Like, so self interested that you bring down the whole system. That's not what's going on. And I think Bitcoin and money in general is the same. Most people don't realize how important money is. That's the I think that's the main stumbling block when it comes to understanding Bitcoin and how important it is for freedom. Because there's only we only have money or violence to get something from strangers.
In small communities, not a problem. In a family, it's not a problem. A family is like, you know, you don't need money in a family because you can trust family members usually, and you can you can do things on credit, you know, like I do something in neighborhoods, that's how it works, you know, like you do something for your neighbor and he'll do something, you know, some other day for you, and so on. You don't need money. But to scale through those trust boundaries, to really have large scale societies, you absolutely need money. It's the only thing that's that really scales because you can get something from a stranger for money.
And the only alternative that we have is violence. You can either steal it or you can you can go into a voluntary relationship with someone else that you don't trust by default, but you will trust the money. If you can trust the money, then you can trust the stranger, and that's why also money is so important, why why final settlement and hard money is so important, because once the transaction is done, you only need to trust the money, you don't need to trust the stranger anymore. And that's how society scale. That's how interactions scale. And people don't think about this in the right way, like how amazing this is, that we as humans figured out that the proper way to interact with other people is on a voluntary basis, and exchanging things because you want to, and not taking them by force. It's a more stable system. The peaceful system is always a more stable system.
Violence is not stable. It can't be. It's just again, from reasoning from first principles, a system that needs force to work is not stable because and it will also be outcompeted by a system that is peaceful by default and voluntary by default by default, because you need to use the extra energy to be violent and to put the pressure on the system, so to speak. And if you have a if you have a system that that works symbiotically and works voluntarily, this system will always win. That's in part why I think it's it's inevitable.
[00:40:39] Unknown:
If you had friend friend comes to you, never used Bitcoin before, has no idea what Bitcoin is, Where do they start?
[00:40:49] Unknown:
Give them a couple of sets on lightning. That usually does the trick. Let them install some lightning wallet. I I usually don't do recommendations because, you know, it changes all the time, what is the best wallet and so on. Right. But just make sure to let them experience what it feels like to, you know, get a couple of sets instantly and just these are your sets. No one can take them away from you. And I didn't you you know, like, you you you you don't need to do anything to sign up for Bitcoin. Again, back to the flipping the coin. What your phone does is the phone locks itself in a secret place and generates a large random number, flips the coin 265 times, does some math, and out comes a Bitcoin address. And conceptually, it doesn't matter if you use on Chain of Lightning or whatever. That's what's happening. And then immediately, you can start receiving Bitcoin, basically.
And experiencing that, you you have to experience it firsthand. So best thing, best first step is get that friend some wallet, send them some Bitcoin. That's it. And what if they don't have a friend?
[00:42:00] Unknown:
Where do they start?
[00:42:04] Unknown:
I don't know. I think I think we're kind of past the point. Everyone knows a crazy Bitcoin guy some somewhere. No? There are many Bitcoiners on there. Make more friends, is that? Make more friends. What
[00:42:19] Unknown:
what is your when when you think of of your day to day in in the Bitcoin space, in the education space, why do you do it? Why does it matter?
[00:42:32] Unknown:
Yeah. I do it because it matters, I think. I truly believe that the world would be a better place if more people understood Bitcoin, and so I get up every day and I think, you know, I'm gonna write words and code for bitcoin. That's what I'm gonna do. And that's that's what I've been doing for a couple of years now. And yeah, I think that's what what that's why people know me as well. I I wrote a little book called 21 lessons. That's why I think most people know me. And, I mean, I'm on Twitter too much still, but I think all the corners are. But I just try to I try to find ways to both educate the public, but maybe more importantly also educate those that are already close to Bitcoin how to think about Bitcoin in a new way maybe, and how to explain some aspects of it and the importance of those aspects in a little bit of a different way and maybe in a more digestible, easier to understand way.
Did you learn anything from writing 21 Lessons? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the the the the subtitle of the book is what I've learned from falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, and it's just a brief summary of what I've learned about kind of the monetary side of things and the technology side of things, but most importantly, maybe the philosophical side of it. Like, Bitcoin is a very new and strange thing. That's, I think, why most people have a hard time wrapping their head around it. Like, nothing like it ever existed before. And I learned a lot from Bitcoin, and I still do. Like, I still I still work on Bitcoin full time every single day. I still
[00:44:21] Unknown:
like, most days I learn new stuff. That's just how it goes. In your bitcoin journey in general, is there anything you would have changed that you would have done differently? Maybe something you would have changed in 21 lessons after hearing from readers?
[00:44:36] Unknown:
I don't know. I I don't consider 21 lessons a proper book because it was just basically a very long tweet thread tweet thread,
[00:44:44] Unknown:
so I I wish I I think you're selling yourself short. I mean, how long is the book? The book is
[00:44:49] Unknown:
No. It's you can read it in, like, 2 hours or so. It's it's it's not very long, but I I wish I would have put more meat on the bone, so to speak, but I'm I'm still I'm still working on that. That's that's in part why why there is gonna be a a follow-up book called 21 ways, which will be 21 ways to look at Bitcoin. I mean, I don't regret anything really. I think I absolutely love what I do, and I again, my the main thesis that I have is that if more people would understand bitcoin, everything would be better. And so that's also why I just I publish everything that I do, under an open Creative Commons license, so you're free to copy and remix my stuff, you're free to print a book that you can read for free online, print it yourself and sell it at the corner store. I don't care. I just want people to understand it in a better way. And so, yeah, no, in general I wish, maybe that's the one regret, I should have I should have quit my Fiat job earlier.
It took me a long time to actually make the plunge and, yeah, kill off my old career and go into Bitcoin full time. The best decision I ever made. I mean, you say you give out these books and
[00:46:12] Unknown:
your books and your content. It's it's all under open source license. Anyone can take it. Yeah. But you do you do receive money from the community.
[00:46:22] Unknown:
Yeah. I I run everything on a value for value basis. So if you think my stuff is useful, it's very easy to send some sets my way, and people do. Like, it's it's a very interesting concept and it's amazing how well it works. And I mean, now it's automated with Podcasting 2.0 where, you know, like you can actually programmatically define that you're a podcast player, while you're listening to an episode, money will be streaming to the people that are behind it, and you can programmatically split this value stream to, you know, also include charities and those kind of things.
And I absolutely love this concept, and that's why everything I do, like, works on that basis. And, well, I again I the thing is that I never cared about money, and I still don't. I only care about fixing the money, And so that's that's why it works for me. I I think information wants to be free. And I'm even long before Bitcoin, I was a huge supporter of free and open source software. And I think those kind of things, they should be freely available for for for everyone. And that's why all my stuff is published under these kind of licenses, where you can just you can just take it
[00:47:37] Unknown:
and do whatever you want with it. Do you think that's the future of content?
[00:47:42] Unknown:
I actually do. I think it's a bigger idea than most people realize. I think, like, online advertisement online advertisements are like, I don't know, a big big business, 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars. And I think the value for value model can actually it's a contender to the regular advertisement based model, and I think it can produce more value in the sense that if you as a content creator are absolutely free to do what you want and you have you there's no self censorship involved. There's no, like, fear of ever being deplatformed and so on.
I think it will open up a lot of new ways of doing things and producing content, and educating people, and thinking about the world, and producing value. And I think it will also open up the discussion about value. Like, how valuable is information to you, for example. Like, the the whole idea of the value for value model is that you, as the sender, you already receive the information. You already read the book. You already read the article. You already listened to the podcast episode and so on. But it kind of flips the whole thing on its head. After the fact, you have to decide how how much was this worth to me. Was it like $5 or 50 or 500?
Like, I've I've received a lot of value for for some people just because they read one of my articles or one of the chapters of the book or what have you, and and they found it so valuable that they they sent what I consider a lot of money, you know, a lot of value back. And of course, there there are other ways to provide value. That's that's the other part of the value for value model of this equation. Like, again, everyone is free to to remix the content, and I think there's, like, over, like, 60 people or something that translated, my book and and other articles that I wrote in like a 100 there's like a 150 translations in like, you know, countless languages, and that's another very nice way to give value back. Or like there are audio versions of my book that people did freely, because they could, and they thought it would provide additional value. And I agree.
And I think there is so much untapped potential, that we can still explore.
[00:50:24] Unknown:
And, I mean, in its core, the ad model is basically a surveillance model too.
[00:50:28] Unknown:
Yeah. I not only that. I think also I I I agree in large parts with Adam Curry, who mentions over and over again that advertisement is censorship because you don't wanna bite the hand that is feeding you, you know, like, very few people talk badly about their advertisers, for example. And your self censor, of course, as well. You know, like, if there if some company is sponsoring you and this company is in the news, you might be able like you, you might not want to talk about it and so on. And so I agree, I think if you want to maximize freedom and if you want to maximize creative freedom, I think the value for value model is the way to go.
[00:51:13] Unknown:
And that's a wrap.
Every year, the Human Rights Foundation hosts the Oslo Freedom Forum, an event for human rights activists from all over the world. This May, in Norway, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Gigi. Gigi is a Bitcoiner and software engineer who writes words and code for Bitcoin. His first book, 21 Lessons, is one of the most recommended books among Bitcoiners. He's launched various projects in the Bitcoin space and is now currently working on his second book, 21 ways. His main focus is on privacy, security, free software, and education. When you think about freedom, what does that mean to you?
[00:00:42] Unknown:
Well, that's a good question to start it off, I think. I think if you don't have any freedom, you will notice it immediately, and we we take so many things for granted. And I think, first of all, it doesn't mean that you're absolutely free to do what you want, you know? Like, you're you you shouldn't be free to go on a killing spree without consequences. But I think, in general, you should be free to think what you want and free to say what you want. And also, within reason, free to do what you want, you know? Like, there is this saying, my freedom to swing my arm ends at your face, basically. So, yeah, I think when I think about freedom, I think mostly about all the important rights that we landed on, you know, like freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and, you know, also freedom to kind of construct your life as you see fit as you wish. So that would be one answer, I guess.
[00:01:53] Unknown:
Do you feel that there is a disconnect between people maybe that live in western countries that are more free versus other countries where, they might have authoritarian governments or be living less free world?
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Oh, I mean, definitely. I think most people are not aware, especially if you're living in a more or less free country in in one of the Western countries. Most people are not aware how bad it is around the world and how unfree some people are and, like, how some of the regimes function. And, I mean, we're here at the Freedom Forum and just listen to those kind of stories and the various hells that people went through, and you will understand very, very quickly. And I always like the kind of There are a couple of tests that will immediately open your eyes to how free you are or you aren't. For example, are you free to make fun of the leader of your country?
And there are some countries where you just can't do that because you you'll you'll immediately land in jail or worse. And I think a lot of people in the west don't realize this, that that this is reality for a lot of people, that you you can't even make fun of someone. Like, your life will be in danger if you make fun of the wrong person, so to speak.
[00:03:20] Unknown:
So, I mean, you do a lot of work in the education space both in bitcoin, freedom, and privacy. How do you go about reasoning with people or helping them understand, you know, the lack of freedom that other people might be going through? Like, how do you get them to really feel that?
[00:03:41] Unknown:
I I always try to kind of start from first principles and and reason up from there. And it's, for example, with freedom of speech, it's the only thing that we have to course correct our society, to figure out what we are doing wrong and trying to fix that and trying to do it better. Once you start censoring people, once you can't say certain things or talk about certain things or certain people, certain situations, certain concepts, then you're already down a very weird and dark path because there is no other way to fixing things and course correcting all our actions without talking about it and without being able to talk about it and figuring out the best way.
And in the end, we only have, like, as a as a con like, humans are networked beings. And as, like, a network organism, the only way we have is by talking about things and trying to figure stuff out. There's either that or immediately you land on violence. If you if you cannot talk it through and reason about it and find the best solution that everyone is willing to work towards voluntarily, you immediately like, the only other option that you have is violence. So it's it's either freedom of speech or violence. And, like, that's a kind of first principle first principles approach to make people understand how important this is. Like, most people don't think about these things properly. Like, they they're like, you can't say that because people will get offended and so on. Like, that's not that's not what this is about. Freedom of speech is not about offending people. It's not about being able to say stuff to offend someone.
That's like a byproduct and something that we need to deal with. That's something that, you know, like, you we are I love to take the risk to being offended because everything else would be worse. You know? Like, silencing speech is way worse. And, yeah, I think we have to think about those things properly and deeply because we went through all those kind of various hells before. I mean, just take a glance at history, and you will see how bad things truly can get once you remove these freedoms and and these rights that are enshrined in the various documents that we drafted over, you know, 100 and 1000 of years.
And, I mean, we still have places where, you know, like, you don't even have to look at history. You just have to look at, I mean, look at China, for example, you know, it's even though it's it's it's a very prosperous country over over the last, you know, decades, they did very well economically in some regards, but it's not a very free country, and you don't have to kind of, you know, look for long to to see what happens and what kind of authoritarian regimes and housecapes open up if you remove basic freedoms like freedom of speech and so on.
[00:06:51] Unknown:
Do you think you can have freedom without privacy? No.
[00:06:56] Unknown:
Just straight up no. Straight up no. You need you need the freedom. You need you need at least the privacy of your own home so that you can think what you want and say what you want and discuss things that are currently off topic. Like that, by off topic, I mean that are basically outside of the Overton window. Like, every every revolution was always, you know, by definition, everything that improves societies outside of the norm. It was always it's it's forbidden to talk about this. It's it's kind of, you know, even forbidden to think those things. Just think about the Gutenberg revolution. Think about, you know, like, abolishing slavery.
You need you need the privacy of your own home to meet with someone else and discuss those things and and talk it through. And even even even for yourself, you need the privacy of your own home at least to think through things by yourself, to write about things for example and so on. Like writing writing, as far as I'm concerned, is thinking about things properly. And so I don't think there is any freedom without privacy. Basically, another way of saying the same thing is that surveillance makes all other freedoms useless, and you can immediately tell this just by, you know, watch at people I mean, everyone knows this, you know, watch at people at how they be how they behave if they think they are not being surveilled, and then you tell them or you show them that there was a camera or or something all along, they immediately change their behavior. Everything changes.
So, yeah, again, surveillance makes all other freedoms useless.
[00:08:35] Unknown:
I mean, we're seeing surveillance grow throughout the world as especially as we move to a more digital world. A lot of times that is is by actual people choosing to be surveilled for a convenience, advantage and a lot of times it's for governments doing it. We see kids being born into surveillance. Is this something that concerns you? Is this something that should concern everybody?
[00:09:01] Unknown:
Yeah, it definitely concerns me. I think what what every what everyone should think long and hard about is these systems once they are built, that people can take over almost immediately, very easily. Often times these systems, like, these these systems of convenience and surveillance and so on, I mean, we see it with automated passport control, those kind of things, you know, it's it's it's all it's all fine and it's all very convenient if you actually like and agree with the people in power that are controlling the system and that are currently in charge of building these systems out and so on.
But I mean, again, one quick glance at history and you can see how quickly things change, and suddenly you have an insane dictator in power, and he has access to those kind of systems. And then things can get really, really bad, really quickly. And I think everyone that's why everyone should be concerned and also why everyone should kind of take incremental steps of increasing their privacy and their, like, data footprint and those kind of things. I think it is just proper digital hygiene. That's that's one thing. Like, that's one way to think about it.
And I think it will be increasingly important depending on your situation and, like, where you live, what you're doing, what kind of situations you're presented with. Yeah. I think everyone will have to care about this in one way or or another. I think that's the that's the world we're living in currently, and you will be faced with a situation where you probably wish that you had more privacy or where you're forced to do things privately, like if you have to flee your country for example, those kinds of things, then yeah, you need to take care of those things, otherwise your life will be in danger. And I mean, again, just look at all the cases that are presented here at the Oslo Freedom Forum. There are people dissidents and journalists and people in really bad situations.
They need to, like, even even when you're speaking up, you need you need to have the option to be private and to use a pseudonym and be anonymous and write about the people in power in a way where you cannot be immediately squashed, for example, and so on. So I think that's all of that is very important.
[00:11:40] Unknown:
I mean, similar to me, you are a public figure that advocates for privacy. I often hear people say that it's it's hypocritical to do that, that you can't be both public and be pro privacy. How do you battle with that balance?
[00:12:00] Unknown:
Well, I think it's kind of a spectrum how much you wanna let the public know about you. And, again, privacy is not secrecy. It's privacy is about selectively revealing yourself to the world, you know, to quote Eric Hios. And that's exactly right, like, many people know many things about me, but it just kind of, you know, it should it shouldn't be it should be harder than, like, 10 seconds on Google or whatever search engine you're using to find out exactly all of your past, where you're currently living, and what you're up to, and so on, I believe.
And that's kind of my goal in in showing that that this is also possible. Like you can actually you can be private online if you want to be. And I also I want to normalize privacy. I want to normalize, pseudonyms as well. I mean, I love how this was completely normal and still is in the gaming world, for example. Like, you don't like your name, you spin up a new one. You don't like your name, you don't like your avatar, you change it. And of course you know like this hangs together with identity and reputation and so on and like, all these things are currently being figured out. But I don't think that a Facebook world is a nice world to live live in where you have one identity and one image that defines you, and one name that defines you, and one kind of occupation, this is what you do, and so on. Like identity is, always was and always will be, prismatic.
You are multiple people in 1. Like at church you're a different kind of person than you are at at your like soccer club or what have you. Like you're a different kind of person at the bar than, like you know, like you are on your job, depending what you do of course. And those kind of things are important, and you cannot kind of like in a in a Facebook world, they want you to to believe that you only have this kind of identity and you use it for absolutely everything. And you're you're kind of the identity that your government gives you is not necessarily your identity.
I know many people where I don't even know their real names, you know, I don't even know their true names, I don't know their government names. I know their nymphs and I know those people very very well and I've been knowing them like I've known them for many many years, and I consider them my friends, and I think all of this should be normalized kind of like we we don't we shouldn't we shouldn't take steps towards building an insane panopticon. We should we should take steps to move away from this world, I believe. But isn't the panopticon already built? Well, to some extent, yes.
But I think more like I'm in general optimistic. I would consider myself an optimist even though I know how bad things are. But I think people are currently waking up how bad it actually is. I mean, we saw whole countries being completely deplatformed from the banking system, for example, like, with with the click of a button. And I I think we will see I was I think we will see these, thing things these things will happen more frequently. As it is easier to do this, it will happen more frequently. So the Panopticon is built in part, but it's not complete yet. Not everything is absolutely connected. Like, there are still some there's still some friction if you actually want to, I don't know, deplatform deplatform, certain religious group from all societal services, for example.
You cannot do this with one push of the button currently, worldwide definitely not. And I think we need to realize as a society that this is probably not a world we wanna live in. We don't we we should not continue to build up those systems, and we should take steps to tear down the existing systems and fight against this. Like, also speak out and also use technology that allows you to protect yourself, use encryption technology, don't give away your private information, don't give away any unnecessary information about yourself, And, yeah, I have an optimistic outlook about it. I think people will learn. The more people, like, the more people and the more countries and the more groups of people will get burned, the easier it will be to
[00:17:06] Unknown:
learn these things for them. Is that what gives you hope? That people will get burned and then they will learn?
[00:17:14] Unknown:
No, actually not. I think in general people are not stupid. That's what gives me hope. I don't believe in the stupid masses, you know. Messes can be be stupid and can behave in stupid ways and so on. But I think individuals are really smart, and I I view groups of people as just a bunch of individuals and they will figure it out and they will they will decide for themselves what is important. And again, I think people will realize that these kind of things are increasingly important. I mean, we see this you're you're self censoring and you're being deplatformed everywhere. Twitter is a great example. You know, like, you can't say certain things. You'll be banned immediately. Like, you'll you'll be in Twitter jail and so on. And I think there is a counter movement happening and people are kind of realizing how important it is to have open conversations, for example, and to have freedom of speech and freedom of thought and it's really important that you are able to say what you think even if this thing is stupid.
Everyone is stupid from time to time. We are we should be allowed to say wrong things and stupid things and offensive things. And I think we've learned this the hard way so many times. I hope that we don't have to learn it the hard way again, but well, again, I'm an optimist. We might have to learn it the hard way again. I hope not. I really hope not.
[00:18:43] Unknown:
Well, anyway, Gigi, you can't really see through your pillowcase, but we just had a Ukrainian protest walk through, I guess a pro Ukrainian protest, with the war going on. So obviously apologies to to you and all the the listeners if if that got picked up.
[00:19:01] Unknown:
Yeah. But that's a perfect example. You need to be you need to be free to protest, for example. That's that's another thing that's super important. These are the kind of freedoms we are talking about, and in part, that's also a great example from the privacy side of things. Like I encourage people to go protesting, but maybe think about what you bring with you. Like if you have your mobile phone, which is a live tracking device with you, depending on your situation, depending on the government, depending on the protest, it might be wiser to leave the phone at home and not build up a history that tracks you and your location and that you have been at the protest and so on. I mean, we saw this in Hong Kong and so on where people got burned by this.
[00:19:47] Unknown:
Right. I mean, we saw it in America too. They were using it during, a bunch of protests in America. They were tracking cell phones. Yeah.
[00:19:56] Unknown:
What,
[00:19:58] Unknown:
what would you say to So when I talk to people about privacy a lot of times what I hear is I'm already completely a part of the surveillance state, right? Like I use Facebook. I use Instagram. I use all the social media.
[00:20:16] Unknown:
I'm I'm already completely screwed. There's nothing I can do about it. What do you tell those people? There's there's always something you can do, and you you don't have to do it all at once. I I know it can be very overwhelming, and you have to take small steps in the right direction. That's the only way to do it. And, yeah, that might be true, but you can start by deleting your Facebook. Like, I can tell you, your quality of life will improve. But it depends on your situation of course, you know. For some people Facebook is the Internet. But it's you know, like do you again, every situation is different. For every individual, it will be different. But you're free, for example, to build up a second persona, pseudonym. If you want to do reporting, if you want to write something, if you want to, for example, also publish a book, there's a reason why authors have pen names, you know, there's a reason for that.
Also, you know, of course in the music industry and so on there are many people that that use like different names as artists as their legal name and there are reasons for that. And you can do that, you can reduce the footprint of your legal identity and use a different identity. You can also like, switch ecosystems and use, for example, software that respects your privacy and software that respects your rights. And of course, there's the free software movement that is all about that, where you're free to use your compute as you wish. You're not the slave of your of your computer. You're not the slave of the system. Like, if you have a Facebook account, you're the slave of Facebook. They can do what they want. They can delete your account. They can delete your posts and so. And there are other there are other systems and other ways of doing things where this can never happen because you are in control and you're in charge. And with the money, for example, Bitcoin is the perfect example. If you use Bitcoin properly, no one can de bank you. No one can deplatform you. Your account can't be frozen. Your transactions can't be canceled. Like, if you know how to do this and how to use it properly, that's a step in the right direction. Then you are you have you're sovereign when it comes to your finances. And you can take small baby steps like your note taking app. Does it need to surveil you?
Do you need to use the Google note taking app? I don't think so. There are other there are other apps that are really good. Standard notes would be one of them. There are plenty others. And so just try to use encryption by default. Try to use messengers that are open source and that have strong encryption built in, those kind of things. And you can you can do this in a step by step fashion, like you don't have to do it all at once and do it right from day 1. That's impossible. You have to learn. You have to adapt, and you can, again, reduce the size of your of your footprint, of your online footprint, and you can, yeah, start to take care of your digital hygiene. It's very much like, you know, starting to work out and eating healthy. It's like step by step, little steps every single day. And before you know it, you will before you know it, this argument completely falls flat because suddenly you are more private.
Suddenly you're not you did not give everything away, you know. And your life can also change, like, it might be true that some entity or some government has all the information about you now, but, you know, like, where you live can change, where you work can change, your name can change, your situation can change, And you can change too. And you can you can learn to do this. You can learn to use use the tools, as to say. It's not impossible. I did it too. I'm still in the process. I'm still trying to do this in a better way, and I'm learning every day. And I think that's the only way to do it.
[00:23:56] Unknown:
So you didn't always have conversations with a pillowcase over your face?
[00:24:01] Unknown:
No. Not always. I also I usually wear a green suit, but, unfortunately, I didn't bring it. So this is like the poor man's green suit.
[00:24:09] Unknown:
We made it work. We made it work. I appreciate your privacy. You know, so I mean, I'm obviously doing a show, this show, about privacy and freedom, and my face is being shown, what do you think of that? Am I a dumbass?
[00:24:30] Unknown:
I don't think you're a dumbass. You can also shave your beard and no one will recognize you anymore, you know. Yeah. But also that. It's I mean magicians will tell you that, like you would be surprised what a fake mustache and a hat can do, Like people won't recognize you anymore. And I think people like we kind of moved away from a culture where this was more the norm, you know, everyone wearing a trench coat and a hat and sunglasses and just everyone kind of it was very easy to blend into a crowd and those kind of things. And currently, you know, like, it's everyone is taking selfies all the time and of course, you know, like, that not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just we live in a bit of a different culture now and people don't realize how like even if you're a public persona, I mean that's true for like very public people as well, there are ways to walk down the street without, you know, people recognizing you immediately. So you can do that, Matt.
Get a nice big hat,
[00:25:35] Unknown:
nice big sunglasses. What what do you think about children coming into this world right now?
[00:25:42] Unknown:
I couldn't hear it. More children, like, first first and foremost.
[00:25:48] Unknown:
But specifically this idea of this balance between digital all encompassing surveillance and being prepared for a digital world at the same time.
[00:26:02] Unknown:
I mean, I think the parents should be kind of at least not completely careless in in the sense that, you know, messing up your kids privacy from the get go. I also think it I feel like it changed a little bit. Maybe it's just for me. Maybe I'm I'm very biased in that regard, but but I feel like it it used to be that everyone was broadcasting all the information all the time, just, you know, like, posting it on Facebook and Instagram and so on. And, like, how we use Instagram, for example, changed, and how we use Facebook changed. And now I feel like it's more directed. It's more like people use more private channels, like sending pics of the kids on Whatsapp to certain groups and so on. I feel like, you know, as a society we are kind of figuring out how to do this in a way, sharing pictures and so on, that's not completely insane, you know, like just putting it online for absolutely everyone to see. Like this changed over the last 10, 15 years already.
And so I don't think that all is lost but you know they're also they're very frightening developments, kind of, from the privacy perspective. In the European Union, for example, they want to install spyware on audio devices that scan your pictures and your texts before they ever get encrypted, before they are even sent out. So every time you snap a picture, it's scanned. And people should just be aware of it. And, those are not great developments, to put put it mildly. But, yeah, it's it's kind of tricky because we are living in this I mean, we're all digital natives, and the kids definitely are. And so I don't think not using a smartphone, for example, is an option. I I think you you kind of have to you have to learn how to use those things, and, you know I think a good idea Adam Curry talked about this as well, that if you have kids try to teach them about the technology and show them that there are other things as well. You know? Like, show them what Linux is. Set up a Linux system. Play around with that. And, like, flash a different OS on a smartphone and let them, you know, learn those kind of things and and play around with it. Kids love this stuff. I mean, they love technology and just tinkering with stuff and figuring figuring shit out, and so I'm not I'm not too worried about it. But again, I think as parents, I hope that more and more parents are more careful with how they're handling, like, the digital traces,
[00:28:47] Unknown:
the digital bread crumbs that they leave all over the place. Do you think there's gonna be, like, a bit of a reckoning in that regard as these kids get older? Because this is the 1st generation that really has had has grown up with social media, that has grown up with, you know, maybe listening devices in their house whether that's Amazon or Google or whatnot.
[00:29:09] Unknown:
That's a good question. I don't know. I think in general, the kids will be alright. You know, I grew up playing computer games, violent ones, quote unquote. Like stuff like Doom and Duke Nukem and so on. And according to the mainstream media at the time, and that was a prevailing few for like 10 years plus, that if you play this for like multiple hours a day, you'll be a serial killer, you know. And it turns out not every gamer turned into a serial killer. It's just something that gaming got integrated into society completely. Like it's completely normal now. I still remember a time where it absolutely wasn't. You were a complete weirdo if you were playing computer games.
And so, I mean, I'm still kind of a weirdo, so there's that. But it's again, I think it will be fine. I think the kids will be alright and and they they will they will also learn I think they will learn how to handle those kind of things, and also the the ecosystems that are currently worrying us, I think they they will find a way around it, kind of. They they'll figure it out.
[00:30:19] Unknown:
So we met in the Bitcoin world.
[00:30:22] Unknown:
We did.
[00:30:24] Unknown:
A bunch of years ago. You obviously are very focused on Bitcoin. Why is Bitcoin important?
[00:30:31] Unknown:
Oh, I think bitcoin is the most important thing that's currently happening. Period. But especially if you care about freedom. Bitcoin is insanely important. Like all the people that are on a power trip and want to build authoritarian systems and want to build the Panopticons and so on, They can do this easily because, in my opinion, the money is broken and you can finance this very easily. If we were on a Bitcoin standard already, it would be very hard to finance those things. That's that's one reason why Bitcoin is important. Same is true for wars and so on. Like, it's very easy to finance those things currently with the the way the monetary system is set up. And I think I think Bitcoin is the return to a more sane and sound world.
That's my hope at least. And in the freedom realm, again, like if you use Bitcoin properly, no one can deplatform you, no one can cancel you, no one can freeze your account, no one can forcefully take the Bitcoin away from you, at least not remotely, you know. It's like a gold coin that you have in your pocket. It can be stolen, like, if if you if you find a person and so on. But that's also not entirely true because bitcoin what I love about bitcoin is it's just information. It has no physical body, so to speak. That's why you can have Bitcoin in your head, and you can literally have Bitcoin in your head. And, I mean, every Bitcoiner know knows this, but I feel like we don't talk about this fact often enough. You can have 12 words in your head.
You can have all your wealth, all your possessions stored in these 12 words in your head, and you can get stripped naked and run run across the border, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. And if you if you make it back to safety, you can enter these 12 words into like a hardware wallet or something, and you have access to all your wealth, and it's intact, And that's very powerful, and that's very important for freedom. We need tools like this that empower the individual again, and put the individual at the center. And that's what Bitcoin does.
[00:32:59] Unknown:
When you think about Bitcoin, what is your do you have any concerns with the current state of bitcoin? What is your biggest concern?
[00:33:09] Unknown:
Apathy. Apathy. That people don't
[00:33:15] Unknown:
care. Do people care?
[00:33:17] Unknown:
More and more people care, and that's very good to see. I think, you know, as the as the fiat system, the traditional monetary system, I think it's currently breaking down. And at this as this increases, the problems will increase, and more and more people will be waking up to the fact that Bitcoin is a viable alternative and a sound money alternative and something that you can just use and you will always have access to and no one can take it ever away from you. Bitcoin will always be there for you. That's people that like, people don't realize how profound this is, you know? In that sense, it's like gold, you know? Like, gold will always be there for you if you wanna use it. It It doesn't go away, you know, gold doesn't react to anything else. You can't destroy gold basically.
I think you also can't destroy Bitcoin, the same. The Bitcoin network will always be there for you. And what's also so powerful, if you're a dissident, for example, or a journalist or what have you, and you need to receive funds, all you need to do is lock yourself in a bathroom or something, some private place, and flip a coin a couple of times, and then you have a Bitcoin wallet. It's just some math after that, but you just need a large random number, and you can flip a coin 265 times, and you will have a valid Bitcoin wallet. That's all you need to do. That's that's why they call it permissionless. You don't need permission to do that. You can just do that, And you will always be able to do that. And that's why Bitcoin is so powerful. You can actually do this.
You can be in a prison cell and do this. You just need a way to communicate the output of this, like the the large number. You do some math, and then you have a Bitcoin address. And the Bitcoin address, you can put anywhere. You can put it on your Twitter profile and so on. And, of course, you know, like, currently, Bitcoin is still young. Like, there are some privacy implications with address reuse and so on. I don't think we need to get into this. This all of this is currently being figured out, you know? The example I always like to give for for those kind of shortcomings of the technology currently, if you will, is like it it took us 30 years to transition from a plain text Internet, HTTP to HTTPS.
That took us 30 years, and it took also on a societal level, like people didn't care. Cryptographers cared, but people didn't. It took someone like Edward Snowden to show the people why this is important, why we need encryption online. If everything is in plain text, that's a really bad idea, you know, for example, with the Internet. And, yeah, we it took a long time for for us to really take this seriously and and figure it out. And I don't think it will take as long as as the time with with Bitcoin. I think people will figure out quicker how important Bitcoin is, because money is kind of the most important thing in when it comes to your survival.
It's really, really hard to survive if you have zero money or the money breaks down. And so, yeah, Bitcoin is, again, the most important thing that's currently going on, in my opinion.
[00:36:27] Unknown:
Do you think the success of Bitcoin is inevitable?
[00:36:32] Unknown:
Inevitable is a very big word, but, yeah, I do. I kind of do. I think the cat is out of the bag and, you know, bitcoin kind of takes human greed and transform transforms it into freedom. That's what it does. That's why it works so well. There are a lot of greedy people in the world, and they use Bitcoin, and they will continue to use Bitcoin. And by using Bitcoin, they empower everyone else that uses Bitcoin for freedom.
[00:37:12] Unknown:
It is pretty astounding that Bitcoin is designed from the ground up to assume that all actors will act greedy and in their own best interests. Is there any other systems that we have that act that way?
[00:37:28] Unknown:
I don't know. I think I often I often think of Bitcoin as, like, a living, breathing thing, as, like, a cybernetic organism, if you if you if you want. And I think a lot of things in nature, while they are like life is always self interested in a way, you know, like there's the idea of the selfish gene and so on, but it's still like all of life is symbiotic. It's not purely self interest in a sense Like, so self interested that you bring down the whole system. That's not what's going on. And I think Bitcoin and money in general is the same. Most people don't realize how important money is. That's the I think that's the main stumbling block when it comes to understanding Bitcoin and how important it is for freedom. Because there's only we only have money or violence to get something from strangers.
In small communities, not a problem. In a family, it's not a problem. A family is like, you know, you don't need money in a family because you can trust family members usually, and you can you can do things on credit, you know, like I do something in neighborhoods, that's how it works, you know, like you do something for your neighbor and he'll do something, you know, some other day for you, and so on. You don't need money. But to scale through those trust boundaries, to really have large scale societies, you absolutely need money. It's the only thing that's that really scales because you can get something from a stranger for money.
And the only alternative that we have is violence. You can either steal it or you can you can go into a voluntary relationship with someone else that you don't trust by default, but you will trust the money. If you can trust the money, then you can trust the stranger, and that's why also money is so important, why why final settlement and hard money is so important, because once the transaction is done, you only need to trust the money, you don't need to trust the stranger anymore. And that's how society scale. That's how interactions scale. And people don't think about this in the right way, like how amazing this is, that we as humans figured out that the proper way to interact with other people is on a voluntary basis, and exchanging things because you want to, and not taking them by force. It's a more stable system. The peaceful system is always a more stable system.
Violence is not stable. It can't be. It's just again, from reasoning from first principles, a system that needs force to work is not stable because and it will also be outcompeted by a system that is peaceful by default and voluntary by default by default, because you need to use the extra energy to be violent and to put the pressure on the system, so to speak. And if you have a if you have a system that that works symbiotically and works voluntarily, this system will always win. That's in part why I think it's it's inevitable.
[00:40:39] Unknown:
If you had friend friend comes to you, never used Bitcoin before, has no idea what Bitcoin is, Where do they start?
[00:40:49] Unknown:
Give them a couple of sets on lightning. That usually does the trick. Let them install some lightning wallet. I I usually don't do recommendations because, you know, it changes all the time, what is the best wallet and so on. Right. But just make sure to let them experience what it feels like to, you know, get a couple of sets instantly and just these are your sets. No one can take them away from you. And I didn't you you know, like, you you you you don't need to do anything to sign up for Bitcoin. Again, back to the flipping the coin. What your phone does is the phone locks itself in a secret place and generates a large random number, flips the coin 265 times, does some math, and out comes a Bitcoin address. And conceptually, it doesn't matter if you use on Chain of Lightning or whatever. That's what's happening. And then immediately, you can start receiving Bitcoin, basically.
And experiencing that, you you have to experience it firsthand. So best thing, best first step is get that friend some wallet, send them some Bitcoin. That's it. And what if they don't have a friend?
[00:42:00] Unknown:
Where do they start?
[00:42:04] Unknown:
I don't know. I think I think we're kind of past the point. Everyone knows a crazy Bitcoin guy some somewhere. No? There are many Bitcoiners on there. Make more friends, is that? Make more friends. What
[00:42:19] Unknown:
what is your when when you think of of your day to day in in the Bitcoin space, in the education space, why do you do it? Why does it matter?
[00:42:32] Unknown:
Yeah. I do it because it matters, I think. I truly believe that the world would be a better place if more people understood Bitcoin, and so I get up every day and I think, you know, I'm gonna write words and code for bitcoin. That's what I'm gonna do. And that's that's what I've been doing for a couple of years now. And yeah, I think that's what what that's why people know me as well. I I wrote a little book called 21 lessons. That's why I think most people know me. And, I mean, I'm on Twitter too much still, but I think all the corners are. But I just try to I try to find ways to both educate the public, but maybe more importantly also educate those that are already close to Bitcoin how to think about Bitcoin in a new way maybe, and how to explain some aspects of it and the importance of those aspects in a little bit of a different way and maybe in a more digestible, easier to understand way.
Did you learn anything from writing 21 Lessons? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the the the the subtitle of the book is what I've learned from falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, and it's just a brief summary of what I've learned about kind of the monetary side of things and the technology side of things, but most importantly, maybe the philosophical side of it. Like, Bitcoin is a very new and strange thing. That's, I think, why most people have a hard time wrapping their head around it. Like, nothing like it ever existed before. And I learned a lot from Bitcoin, and I still do. Like, I still I still work on Bitcoin full time every single day. I still
[00:44:21] Unknown:
like, most days I learn new stuff. That's just how it goes. In your bitcoin journey in general, is there anything you would have changed that you would have done differently? Maybe something you would have changed in 21 lessons after hearing from readers?
[00:44:36] Unknown:
I don't know. I I don't consider 21 lessons a proper book because it was just basically a very long tweet thread tweet thread,
[00:44:44] Unknown:
so I I wish I I think you're selling yourself short. I mean, how long is the book? The book is
[00:44:49] Unknown:
No. It's you can read it in, like, 2 hours or so. It's it's it's not very long, but I I wish I would have put more meat on the bone, so to speak, but I'm I'm still I'm still working on that. That's that's in part why why there is gonna be a a follow-up book called 21 ways, which will be 21 ways to look at Bitcoin. I mean, I don't regret anything really. I think I absolutely love what I do, and I again, my the main thesis that I have is that if more people would understand bitcoin, everything would be better. And so that's also why I just I publish everything that I do, under an open Creative Commons license, so you're free to copy and remix my stuff, you're free to print a book that you can read for free online, print it yourself and sell it at the corner store. I don't care. I just want people to understand it in a better way. And so, yeah, no, in general I wish, maybe that's the one regret, I should have I should have quit my Fiat job earlier.
It took me a long time to actually make the plunge and, yeah, kill off my old career and go into Bitcoin full time. The best decision I ever made. I mean, you say you give out these books and
[00:46:12] Unknown:
your books and your content. It's it's all under open source license. Anyone can take it. Yeah. But you do you do receive money from the community.
[00:46:22] Unknown:
Yeah. I I run everything on a value for value basis. So if you think my stuff is useful, it's very easy to send some sets my way, and people do. Like, it's it's a very interesting concept and it's amazing how well it works. And I mean, now it's automated with Podcasting 2.0 where, you know, like you can actually programmatically define that you're a podcast player, while you're listening to an episode, money will be streaming to the people that are behind it, and you can programmatically split this value stream to, you know, also include charities and those kind of things.
And I absolutely love this concept, and that's why everything I do, like, works on that basis. And, well, I again I the thing is that I never cared about money, and I still don't. I only care about fixing the money, And so that's that's why it works for me. I I think information wants to be free. And I'm even long before Bitcoin, I was a huge supporter of free and open source software. And I think those kind of things, they should be freely available for for for everyone. And that's why all my stuff is published under these kind of licenses, where you can just you can just take it
[00:47:37] Unknown:
and do whatever you want with it. Do you think that's the future of content?
[00:47:42] Unknown:
I actually do. I think it's a bigger idea than most people realize. I think, like, online advertisement online advertisements are like, I don't know, a big big business, 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars. And I think the value for value model can actually it's a contender to the regular advertisement based model, and I think it can produce more value in the sense that if you as a content creator are absolutely free to do what you want and you have you there's no self censorship involved. There's no, like, fear of ever being deplatformed and so on.
I think it will open up a lot of new ways of doing things and producing content, and educating people, and thinking about the world, and producing value. And I think it will also open up the discussion about value. Like, how valuable is information to you, for example. Like, the the whole idea of the value for value model is that you, as the sender, you already receive the information. You already read the book. You already read the article. You already listened to the podcast episode and so on. But it kind of flips the whole thing on its head. After the fact, you have to decide how how much was this worth to me. Was it like $5 or 50 or 500?
Like, I've I've received a lot of value for for some people just because they read one of my articles or one of the chapters of the book or what have you, and and they found it so valuable that they they sent what I consider a lot of money, you know, a lot of value back. And of course, there there are other ways to provide value. That's that's the other part of the value for value model of this equation. Like, again, everyone is free to to remix the content, and I think there's, like, over, like, 60 people or something that translated, my book and and other articles that I wrote in like a 100 there's like a 150 translations in like, you know, countless languages, and that's another very nice way to give value back. Or like there are audio versions of my book that people did freely, because they could, and they thought it would provide additional value. And I agree.
And I think there is so much untapped potential, that we can still explore.
[00:50:24] Unknown:
And, I mean, in its core, the ad model is basically a surveillance model too.
[00:50:28] Unknown:
Yeah. I not only that. I think also I I I agree in large parts with Adam Curry, who mentions over and over again that advertisement is censorship because you don't wanna bite the hand that is feeding you, you know, like, very few people talk badly about their advertisers, for example. And your self censor, of course, as well. You know, like, if there if some company is sponsoring you and this company is in the news, you might be able like you, you might not want to talk about it and so on. And so I agree, I think if you want to maximize freedom and if you want to maximize creative freedom, I think the value for value model is the way to go.
[00:51:13] Unknown:
And that's a wrap.
Introducing Gigi
What does freedom mean to Gigi?
Is there a disconnect between the West and other countries?
The importance of freedom of speech
Can you have freedom without privacy?
Being a public figure and being pro-privacy
Is the panopticon already built?
The freedom to protest
How to start improving your privacy
Children being born under a surveillance state
Why is Bitcoin important?
Concerns with the current state of Bitcoin
Is the success of Bitcoin inevitable?
Introducing people to Bitcoin
Why does Bitcoin education matter?
Would Gigi change anything about his Bitcoin journey?
The future of content
