Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 89
BLOCK: 775775
PRICE: 4517 sats per dollar
TOPICS: bitcoin park, open source week, coldcard q1, nostr, inscriptions, block sizes, mutiny, bdk, ldk 

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[00:00:34] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Thursday, freaks.   It's your boy Odell here   for an impromptu seal dispatch,   The show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   I told you guys we had a crazy group of people at Bitcoin Park this week for open source week, and as a result, we are doing an awesome party rep.   Obviously, rabbit hole recap was supposed to be going on right now, but Marty   has something that he's taking care of. So rabbit hole recap will be tomorrow instead, so we decided to do this party rip.   Before I get started,   obviously, the show you guys know the deal. The show is is funded purely by you, by our audience.  

We don't have ads or sponsors.   I'm incredibly grateful that you all continue to support the show.   The easiest way to support the show is podcasting 2 point o apps, such as Breeze, fountain podcast, Echo ln. Simply search little dispatch, Choose how many sats per minute you think the show is worth, and those sats stream directly to my node. So thank you for doing that. You can also support the show by going to ciel dispatch.com   and sending Bitcoin.   It is appreciated. All the links are siladispatch.com.   I know it's a bear market. I know it's a recession.  

If you can't spare stats,   simply sharing the show with friends, retweeting it on Twitter, subscribing on YouTube, Twitch, all the platforms,   on every podcast app.   No. It doesn't matter. Just subscribe. Leave a review. I appreciate it. It's all appreciated. Okay. I mean, I feel like I feel like you guys know the deal, so I'm just gonna skip that part.   Boostergrams are awesome. Boostergrams are messages with sats attached to them.   I always read the top 4,   because   there's, like, 6 dispatches this week. We only have 3 boosts from yesterday, so I'm gonna read all 3. We have ride or die freak ape myth render with 7,777   sats saying, I'm still a lightning noob   and an on chain Maxi. Let me know when we have Taproot based lightning channel openings and other privacy improvements.  

We have at nonyabbusiness   with 5,000 sats.   Matt, Val mentioned plat Phantom LN nodes. Is there any possibility that same tech could be used for failover?   I'm looking for a way to clone my LN node and BTC full node, both are on my Raspberry Pi, so as to have a way for my entire my node BTC setup to failover   to the exact same setup on another Pi.   The thing that is a big mental hurdle for me is the Raspberry Pis would have different MAC and IP addresses. Can you ask Val about this if you don't know? Thanks, Matt. Yeah. I can. I'll ask Val after the show.   And then at mark c with 500 sets, just did a fire emoji. Appreciate you guys. Thank you for supporting the show.  

Just a reminder,   Steve Lee is coming on the show tomorrow morning,   and then we're gonna do a Super Bowl Sunday rip before the Super Bowl with,   Casey Rod Armour to to discuss inscriptions and ordinals and what the fuck is going on over there with that.   But without further ado,   we have a fantastic group of people here. It's a little bit different than a traditional dispatch. We have absolutely no topic to discuss   except for, like, Bitcoin and Nasr and open source shit,   but we're just gonna shoot the shit and have a good time.   Join us, obviously, in the live chat. And if you wanna touch on certain things, just hit us in the live chat,   while we're going. So with that being said,   I'm gonna introduce   our all of our guests.  

We have return return guest and good friend of of of myself and the pod, MBK. How's it going, MBK? Hey, man. Thanks for having me.  

[00:04:11] Unknown:

Fun times. You guys are having a awesome week here at the park. It's insane. Yes. Can you see the exhaustion in my eyes? Yeah. I mean, we're all dead. I recorded with MVK earlier today on his podcast. Yeah. And, there is a lot of discussions on, discounted tech butts on the blockchain   and not discounted farts.  

[00:04:29] Unknown:

That's a good point. And we have, Vivek here. How's it going, Vivek? It's going well. I see the studio booth. You know, a lot of people are starting podcasts. I think, like, I'm gonna launch one pretty soon.  

[00:04:41] Unknown:

It's really exciting. You can reuse the mic. You're that freak. Like and subscribe to Vivek's podcast. Once he moves to Nashville, you can use the studio whenever you want, Vivek.   We have, the man who's the most veteran podcaster in the room. We have we have Paul Miller here. How's it going, Paul? Hello. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll teach you all some some lessons from  

[00:05:05] Unknown:

from, like like, my long years in the trenches. Did you guys have computers back then? We we did have, but you had to it it was a podcast because it went to an iPod. You know?  

[00:05:17] Unknown:

Oh, that's where it's from. I don't know. Yeah. Well, it's an iPOD.   We have,   a man that only goes by one first name, Tony. How's it going, Tony? What's up, guys?  

[00:05:30] Unknown:

It's good.   Gonna be back in Nashville. It's been a few months or maybe a year or something. I don't know.   Time is so slow. But, I'm here, and, it's an awesome time at the park.  

[00:05:41] Unknown:

Sweet. Tony doesn't have any social media, so when I told the guest to retweet the tweet, he said he's just send it to his signal buddies. Which most of them are here.   And we have,   I I didn't list you guys separately, and we also have the Benz. The the Benz are here. We'll we'll start with intro. Unison?   Hello. Hello. We   we have Ben Price and, Ben Carmen from The Bitcoin Company. Ben, why don't you say hi first just so the people on the audio feed know? Which one? Which one?   Oh, did I say found?   It was a long night last night.   Carmen Carmen, just say hi Hi to the freaks. Hello, everyone. 3rd podcast this week. So let's keep it going. Let's keep it going. And, Price, now you say hi.  

Hello.   There we go. So now you know everyone's voice. If you're listening on the podcast feed, I hope you can keep track.   So where do we wanna start?   What do we wanna talk about? Let's go straight to 300   kilobyte blocks. You wanna talk about 300 kilobyte blocks? Never gonna happen.  

[00:06:46] Unknown:

We're starting UASF tomorrow. We have hats.  

[00:06:51] Unknown:

So do do what's the compelling argument for it? You wanna get I mean, I know what the compelling argument is, but you wanna give,   an overview.  

[00:06:59] Unknown:

You know, in the AM radio kind of thing, shortwave?  

[00:07:02] Unknown:

Well, no. I mean, I think the real argument is, They're small?   The real the real argument is when we increase the block size to essentially 4 megs,   it should have been up we should have been operating under the assumption that blocks would always be full. That's the only safe assumption. Like, of course, they're gonna be full.   But instead, in the meantime, we've just had relatively empty blocks consistently.   And now that they're full, everyone's like, that's crazy. Like, that's too much of a burden on my node. But the real question should have been when we increased it in the 1st place, would it be a burden on nodes, or would it not be a burden on nodes? Right when they changed it. Right? I mean, like, you know, the big blockers were all like, oh, where's the block? Exactly. That's what I'm saying. So the argument for 33   100 kilobytes is   is, like, if you don't like big blocks, then let's make them smaller. Right? Yeah. Well, full blocks. But, you know, people that are no. Like, Bitcoin started Well, they'll always be full if it's at at at 300 ks. Started 32 megabyte blocks, and then Satoshi down it to 1 megabyte.  

So The original sin. The original sin. Maybe talk to the big blockers.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

Thank god we don't have 32 meg blocks. That'd be No. I mean, you would have well, one plus side of that is that the the Raspberry Pi fetish would have never happened.  

[00:08:15] Unknown:

No note in a box. That's right, dude. How do you feel about razpies?  

[00:08:22] Unknown:

Raspos are shit. Is has the supply chain restored and They have the most close source, most awful company as a chip maker. So So if you have 32 megabyte block and then you have this set up with Segwit or Taproot, then you'd have, like, 128   megabyte blocks. Right?  

[00:08:38] Unknown:

Well,   yeah.   It it depends on how you're gonna look at it. If you want to But if you if you did all this vByte shenanigans   Yeah. That would be for normal. Well,   provided the discounts would be the same. Right? Because Mhmm. We maybe will use a different discount form. Yeah. But if we used all the same Yeah. It features a 100 and 20. Yes. Yeah. Minus the Coinbase   witness and all that stuff.   So it takes 32 bytes   or something? K. I don't know. Ben is the one that should know this thing. That's too  

[00:09:08] Unknown:

bad. It's too tight. Right?  

[00:09:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, I think that that, like, people weren't expecting actual 4 megabyte blocks. Like, it was always like, well, in theory, if somehow we had only witness data in the block, it would be 4 megs, but  

[00:09:24] Unknown:

no one thought that would happen. I mean, thankfully, now we have, deck buds filling the blocks. And so Well well It fixes the all the the FUD about the three way missions.  

[00:09:34] Unknown:

Yeah. The security budget, the secure we're gonna be secured by monkeys now. More more than the storage stuff, though. The the stuff I personally cared about even back then was IBD.   That was, like, the big issue.  

[00:09:47] Unknown:

But bandwidth isn't, like, the huge biggest restriction on IBD. Normally, it's, like, validating everything,   much as   CPU.   True.  

[00:09:56] Unknown:

Well well, unless you're going through Tor and then Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not syncing that. How many  

[00:10:02] Unknown:

how many, how much drive space do you need for 1 year of 4 megabyte blocks? Somebody did the math, like, just average.  

[00:10:11] Unknown:

44 times 144. I mean, it's still drive space is is definitely not the issue. Well, it so there's one issue, which is, like,  

[00:10:19] Unknown:

there's a threshold of, of price change on SSD drives.   Right? So, like,   I think right now, like,   the   the commodity sort of, like, SPAC, right, that China puts out is, 1 terabyte drives.   Sorry. Actually, it's the Philippines   has those drives. Anyways,   and once you go to 2 or 4 terabyte drives, the price, like, is completely different. It's it's not just, like, double the price kind of thing. I I I can't remember which one is the one that's, like, the standard right now. I think I saw a tweet from, like, Stefan,  

[00:10:55] Unknown:

Lavera that   said it, like, went from 28¢   per   gig or something like that to now  

[00:11:03] Unknown:

3¢, something like that. Yeah. But that's only for, like, the main size,   right, that you get with all the the shit books.   Hold them closer to your Yeah. Math. Yeah. Like that. So, like, whatever whatever is the drive that, that is the, like, the the standard for most things Yeah. That's gonna be the drive that has that price. As soon as you deviate from that one specific model that everybody gets He was talking about just a Samsung, like, typical,  

[00:11:29] Unknown:

whatever  

[00:11:30] Unknown:

Yep. Model, like, 8 70 Evo. Like Yeah. But it's probably, like, 1 terabyte. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But then 1 terabyte's probably not enough anymore. Right? Yeah. I mean, 1 So now you have to go to 2 terabytes. That's gonna suck for everyone's Raspberry Pis right now. That's gonna that's gonna suck for a lot of people once we hit that threshold. Good.   It's just a reality. Yeah. Well, we can we can soft fork the size down. It's very easy. Or just just let them have pruned nose.  

[00:11:55] Unknown:

How far are we from 1?  

[00:11:57] Unknown:

How far are we from 1 terabyte? He just randomly talks without a negative problem. What what are we, like, a 700 gigabytes already? No. It's, like, 600, I think. Okay. Well, like But I'm also gonna change very fast. Ben, how how much would t x index Yeah. Yeah. Like, the contact filters, all that. Like, where we at with all the good shit? I mean, I don't know. But I mean, technically, you only need, about 300 blocks,   to be safe.  

[00:12:22] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That's the that's the math. Well, no. You should have the no. 216 or 2,016, like, the difficulty adjustment period.   But yeah.   I just did the math. It's 210 gigabytes a year  

[00:12:36] Unknown:

if you have 4 megabyte blocks all year. Okay. The block size is never gonna change again. Right? No. We're just gonna talk about that for, like, the next hour. Like, we're not   it's not gonna be soft forked down. It's not gonna be use proposal where it's like a temporary It's not gonna be soft forked up. I like it. Hard forked up. Like, it is what it is. That's what we got. That's what our grandkids are gonna have. It's never gonna fucking change again. We were I I think it'll change again. Like, at some point, we'll for some other different reason. You think it'll increase? It it could be. It could also go down too. I mean, we don't know. We were having And do you wanna bet?  

[00:13:08] Unknown:

It might not be in my life. Bet.  

[00:13:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Bet bet by, like, 21.40. Yeah. Deal real quick. Good deal. That's right. So our kids can earn the bat. Like, you know, it's gonna be a 300 year bat. Yeah. 300 year bat. My grandkids are gonna have to, like, move out of their house for, like, MBK's grandkids.   That'll be pretty funny. Out of nowhere. Right?  

[00:13:29] Unknown:

I'll be here later in a space The DLC gets activated. Somebody, you know, if my beard, like, knocks on the door. Hey.   Bye. My   house now.   Eviction.  

[00:13:41] Unknown:

There's a con I thought granddad was humble. What happened?  

[00:13:45] Unknown:

Are they gonna use FACT them for their eviction by then? Oh, god. There's a conversation during national bit that's a kinda, like, got me thinking. That bit was so good. It was really great. And,   like, you right now, anybody could configure   their mempool if they know what they're doing to not accept these. And, like, as it's not even a soft fork. It's just like a way of, like,   voting with your feet of, like, hey. I'm not gonna help these inscriptions move around.   And it made me really curious. Tony, you mentioned some there's some percentage where   at that point, it is actually   becomes difficult for people to, like, publish publish. And 10%  

[00:14:26] Unknown:

of the people rejecting it? Or 10% of that. So 90% of the people have to mic.  

[00:14:31] Unknown:

So So if 90% of the people were were running this fork version,   or not fork, just the modified That's true. Exactly. It could it could, like, it it would it would be really interesting. Like, if people really care about this, they really hate this, they wanna do something about it. It is kind of a thing that you can you can do. It kind of feels like No. Not in this case. You know what it is? MBK. It's not it's not gonna This is a change dot org petition. I know. Like, this is what this is.   And you need to It's a feel good thing. It's that song, the Olympics song. Yeah. It's a it's a feel good thing, but it it's it's not gonna it's not gonna change the the fact that you can get these into blocks. The incentives are different for them. But it's gonna it it it would at that point of 90%, it would it would make it annoying.  

[00:15:12] Unknown:

No. You wouldn't have to you'd have to, like, figure out the Luxe or CEO's phone number and, like, have to, like, ask him, you know, how much does it cost? You just force things out of band. This this this this specific use case, the incentives are aligned for them to keep a copy of the shit on AWS,  

[00:15:29] Unknown:

and then all their nodes are just pointed there to sync for this specific purpose. There's enough money in keeping those inscriptions. But that would be a novel way of, I mean, like, right now, we're very used to just you publish transactions Yeah. And it hits the quote, unquote mempool. Just bam. There is no the mempool. Be very different.  

[00:15:48] Unknown:

That's right. Yeah. We all use them as a My mempool keeps  

[00:15:51] Unknown:

one set by transactions forever.  

[00:15:54] Unknown:

So so, Ben, I'm like gonna see my I'm a I'm a toxic maximalist   that is struggling to run a full node.   How can I,   witness prune so I don't have to keep these, like,  

[00:16:07] Unknown:

inscriptions on my notes? Is that possible? You go beg Peter Well or someone to influence it. Like, it's not implemented yet. You just run a normal prune node. Like, it's there's really no reason to run a witness prune node over normal prune node. See, the problem to me is not against the disk space really, is the bandwidth.  

[00:16:23] Unknown:

Right? But that's a 4 megabyte block anyways, so it's screwed regardless. Because even if you're filtering those out  

[00:16:29] Unknown:

right? Yeah.  

[00:16:31] Unknown:

You good?   So even if you're even if you're, like, pruning it, right, filtering out, you're still downloading it, the whole data. So, like, that's a 4 megabyte problem.   It's not like the data itself.  

[00:16:47] Unknown:

It's the limit. Yeah. But for the hard the hard drive limitation at least. Yeah. But the hard drive, that's the A 100%. The list of our concerns. Yeah. Even though it sucks. Alright. So let's say if you did fill them up the proper way, like, are there cool things you could do, say, with James, like, vault proposal, like No. I have storing random to win this day. That's, like, the only thing you're doing here. Yep. But that And Maybe maybe Barak's  

[00:17:11] Unknown:

multisig? That's about it.  

[00:17:13] Unknown:

Yeah. There's nobody using Yeah. That space. No. I mean, in the future, though, there will be use cases. Right? Yeah. But those will have a higher economic Like sort of, like, value. Yeah. Right? So they'll probably push out price out They'll they'll yeah. The inscriptions just sort of, like, flow to the top just like shit. Like, all the interesting thing is, like, how do we use block space efficiently?   And then, like, and then we just have the other end of the spectrum, which is inscriptions. Like, what if we just abuse the block space? And, you know, so, like It's empty. It's empty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can I just, like like it's absolutely brilliant to begin with? I mean, like, what he came up with. Oh, I love it. You know? And and, like, okay. It's showing that this is possible. I mean, it could have been a state actor just immediately just pushing, you know, keto pictures. Right? Like,   instead, we got dick butts.  



[00:17:59] Unknown:

The the whole thing only, like, 7 have made it in. Right? No. There's, like, thousands. Yeah. The old thing is really funny to me because,   you know, I try to focus on stuff that I like about Bitcoin.   And, like, I made a tweet just completely,   like, separate   from,   inscriptions. I just said it's a big letdown when people have, like, are Bitcoiners, but they have, like, shitcoin tendencies. And then everyone started attacking me like I was, like, coming at Casey or something. Like, he's living rent free and everyone's so busy. Going after?   I was going after   this There's particular   people that like to   get, you know,   advisors   and throw conferences   and things like that that   are pretty much the same behaviors   that were very common in 2017.  

So that's particularly,  

[00:18:54] Unknown:

yeah. I will say that just because NFTs are on Bitcoin   does not, like, ethically   absolve   minting, selling an n v NFT. If if your,   your goal is to find, like, a greater fool   and and and pump the price of something that you know in the long run is is just a receipt for a JPEG.   Like, that's I I think it's immoral. On this one, you get the actual JPEG in a way. You know, the JPEG get the JPEG, but but, yeah, if this kinda this whole thing for collectibles. Like Yeah. No. It's not my thing. It there there's  

[00:19:30] Unknown:

no, there's no limit on the supply. But in this case, you actually get the JPEGs.  

[00:19:35] Unknown:

They have an article.  

[00:19:37] Unknown:

Inscription, really. But but would you say it download a copy of that JPEG. I know. There's no You can copy from my Twitter profile too. I use the same one. This wouldn't have taken off if people weren't so turned off by it. Right? It was Stry Sand Ascend Yeah. Yeah. That propelled it to the There's also gonna be a lot of loss trading. You see a lot of loss trading in this stuff because it's it's inherently illiquid. Right? It's literally 1 of 1 or 1 of 10 or whatever.  

[00:19:59] Unknown:

You know, I So a lot of loss trading between each other. I mean, I definitely agree on the moral premise. You know, this is akin to to gaming. Right? I mean, like, you either like gaming or you don't. Like, the the folks that like collectibles and stuff, like, there is no amount of explaining that something is not like what they think it is. Like, they're really into it. Like, they love this stuff. I it's one thing to like collectibles, but it's another thing to, like, hope some idiot buys a JPEG off you in the future. I just I like, like,  

[00:20:26] Unknown:

moral arguments from someone who's pro child labor.   You're just watching this this video of this 3 year old chimney sweep from the 19 Yep. And then Paul's like, this is what they took from us. This is what this   is.  

[00:20:40] Unknown:

But I I do think it'd be interesting   as a fundraising mechanism, you buy an NFT that's on the blockchain, but it, like, it gets sent to, like, a burn address. So the JPEG exists,  

[00:20:50] Unknown:

you spent money, but you're never you're never gonna sell it. Yeah. That's that's my plan with mine. It's not for sale. Actually, I'll sell it for 21,000,000 BigQuery. There you go. When the project is over, I'll take the coins, you know, print a picture of all the UTXOs that are left, actually consolidate it to a single one, and then turn off the last Raspberry Pi. And put it on put it on a Casacious too, all 21,000,000.  

[00:21:11] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I don't like those.   The ordinals coin joint is a fun idea Yeah. Where you just all put yours in and everyone gets a different one. Someone might get more than 1. It'll be really fun Does it incentivize point joints kinda? Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. A loot crate or whatever. Yeah. It would be hilarious if we've been talking about, like, the fee market forever. I've been talking about, like, people using on chain Bitcoin. I've been talking about people doing collaborative transactions. And if all of it comes together because the dot eats are all running their own notes, doing coin joins to get the support of those. Right? Whatever it takes. This literally happened. I was talking to a former Bitcoiner that is has transitioned off to the ETH a few years back.  

[00:21:51] Unknown:

And, you know, she's trying to sink a note now. She's like, oh, I'm I'm sinking a Bitcoin note. Like, inscriptions are bringing me back. She sends me a screenshot, and it's like, oh, in 10 weeks, it'll be synced. She's like, why is this taking so long? I was, you fucking people. That's why it's taking so long. Like, what are you fucking talking about? Well, you should also told her to sync a ETH node and see how long it takes. Yeah. Exactly.  

[00:22:10] Unknown:

How many do we know our numbers on how many new people are running nodes now? Probably some crazy amount.  

[00:22:16] Unknown:

Like, it it we we must, like, that's their argument. There's oh, look at all these people. Where do people look these days? Because it used to be, like, Bitnose or whatever, that thing that Baji had. Right? No. It's Luke Dasher's site. Luke Dasher's too. Yeah. But now the problem is too is the d gen are gonna just spin up, like, 50,000 nodes on Amazon. Right? Yeah. Just like credit card pressed button. Or someone's gonna make, like, the electrum of ordinals or something.  

[00:22:39] Unknown:

I Udi Udi was texting me trying to get me to sell ordinals, and I was like, fuck off. But,  

[00:22:43] Unknown:

he was saying he has a discord with, like, 4,000 people running new Bitcoin notes. So, like, holy shit. Oh, that's kinda Or you gotta do the Udi discount, but even if it's, like, a 1000 people, that's pretty I I was talking to my boy, Rob, too, and he was saying, like, some of our clubhouse friends are selling ordinals for, like, 0.2 and stuff. Like,  

[00:23:00] Unknown:

there's, like, they're actually, like, being sold and bought, and I know someone's crazy. By the way, Casey's a bit kinda mad that everybody keeps on calling ordinals, but it's actually the inscriptions. Inscriptions. Yeah. Yeah. But that that boat has sailed again. I thought they were Casey's JPEGs. That's right.  

[00:23:15] Unknown:

I I keep saying it's NFTs. Well, every inch Don't say that. In order. That's right. Jesus.   Can we talk this has been great, guys. I've I've really enjoyed this conversation so far. Can we talk about the q one that, that, Enrique just launched?  

[00:23:32] Unknown:

Is it a BlackBerry, or is it a graphing calculator?  

[00:23:37] Unknown:

It's,   it's, what is it? I don't know. 1 of the 2. Maybe none because I don't wanna get in trouble.  

[00:23:44] Unknown:

What? Why don't you have, like, a red dot on it?  

[00:23:47] Unknown:

A red dot? Yeah. Yeah. So attach to a gun. Like, a hollow sun or a trijicon armor. Yeah.   TI made one Ty made 1,   M4 mount, for our cold card.  

[00:24:01] Unknown:

Oh, like, Ty Kawamoto. Yeah. I thought you were talking about Texas Instruments.   Somebody made him sleep for that.  

[00:24:09] Unknown:

I always call him T. I don't know why it got stuck in my head. Oh, I guess that's He made the he made the renders,  

[00:24:14] Unknown:

for for, for q one. So, we have, b t z pins in the chat asking where do you shoot to q one? Where are the secure elements located? It's gonna be  

[00:24:24] Unknown:

right now, we have them, like, near the screen again.  

[00:24:28] Unknown:

Definitely take the batteries out before you do that.  

[00:24:31] Unknown:

That's that's probably good. But alkalines don't explode.   You heard it here first. You're not shooting. Definitely take the batteries out there. Actually, you shouldn't shoot anything. Okay? You should just use a drill with,   proper eye and hand protection.   I'm pretty excited about the q one. It's like, it's my dream it's my dream piece of Bitcoin hardware. You guys seen the pictures. Right? Oh, yeah. It's, yeah. I mean, you know, I wanna be able to type passphrases fast and NVK put a bunch of things on that device that he's told me for years he was never gonna do. You know why. Right? Because I kept badgering you. Well, there is that too. I mean, the more people push me, the more I go the other direction. Right? Yeah. So you put the keyboard so we have to type out the addresses manually. Right? That's right. We're gonna keyway see every transaction, so you have to type in your address. That's why it's there. You need to face   in the travel room.  

It's got a text editor?   Sorry. They Go text editor? That's right. It's no. It's gonna be VVI.   Yeah. Are you gonna put the Microsoft paper clip in there to, like, help you know your actions? That's right.   Hey. You need more entropy, sir.   That'd be pretty cool, actually. Like, a little dog or something comes up. Your entropy is not enough.  

[00:25:46] Unknown:

Looks like you're trying to not lose your big core.  

[00:25:50] Unknown:

That's right.  

[00:25:53] Unknown:

The QR scanner is cool.   Those modules used to be very expensive,   and we didn't wanna do the normal camera stuff going through the the MCU because, you know, it's a you can definitely get owned like that. The connection between the cameras. Yeah. So, like, so the way most wallets are doing is they have a camera that just shoots that raw video data straight into the MCU,   which is the main processor. The main processor is just, like,   in memory has your private keys   and then in memory now has all this, like, random data just came in. Right? So you could totally try some, like, you know, a buffer overflow type of thing and, you know, you still gotta retrieve the data. And So what do you do instead? Yes. We we use a QR scanner module   that does all the QR   scanning sort of,   thinking outside.  



[00:26:42] Unknown:

Like on it, it's, like, has its own chip that Yeah. It's kinda like a supermarket. Right? Like And then it just pipes over Cereals.  

[00:26:49] Unknown:

Cereal? Yeah. Cereal. Is but it does it, like, validate that it's, like, some valid No. Like, no. Not not not ex no. It's gonna just shoot still sending a string over. It's gonna shoot a string over, but it's a massive different space. Right? Like and and it sanitized text too. Right? So Can I sweep a SaaS card just with the QM?   No. Because the the cold card doesn't know the transaction doesn't know the UTXO set. Right?  

[00:27:14] Unknown:

So you can't do you can't You need an Internet connected. No. You can't figure out transactional Isn't it just a regular address?  

[00:27:21] Unknown:

Like, the OpenDime didn't need Internet to sweep. Right? What what if I had did have sweep device needed. Do Exactly. What if I did have, like, a full node and the UTX OS add on a 1 terabyte micro SD?  

[00:27:33] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we would have to be running core or something, like, in the indexing. Like, it gets it so originally, we wanted to make this thing called TX signer, which was, like, essentially a code,   code   node for you   to build transactions. Yeah. Do that. And then we were going to do,   delta   deltas of that level DB. Don't be a pussy. That's right.   Deltas of level DB   to bring in via Sneakernet   the the more the UTXOs that came over, just the index. Right?   But, like, you know, people are not gonna pay what's gonna cost to make the device. You know, it's not gonna be economically viable. It's gonna be, like, you know So, Abba,  

[00:28:12] Unknown:

the q one is under block clock The q one is only $50, at least for now. Well, if you made that over or under the o o g block clock? Oh, definitely under. Okay. Yeah.  

[00:28:22] Unknown:

I still don't regret not buying that. I'm, like, close sometimes, but Yeah.   It was, like, it was, like, 2 Bitcoin at the time. 1?   It was, like, $7,000 at 35100. No. It was 5 grand on Bitcoin. I thought it was, like, 1 and a half. 1 Bitcoin, 5 grand.  

[00:28:39] Unknown:

I know that it was the whole point. You've been   of 10 years of Bitcoin.   And It was the sexiest piece of Bitcoin I ever was. Wait. Would you mind I almost FOMO bought it so many times, but I think I'm still good with the decision. Can you explain those dials? Like, we're having dinner, and you were talking about, like, it's, like, train station or something. Yeah. So so there is this one last factory that makes train station digits. You know, in Europe, like, all the train stations have this, like, the digits that either spin or or turn like the ones we have. And there's just one factory left in the world in Poland that makes those digits. And those are the digits. We commissioned them to make, like, a huge batch for us, and they are rated for a 100000000 cycles.  

[00:29:19] Unknown:

Jeez.  

[00:29:21] Unknown:

Anyways  

[00:29:22] Unknown:

That's pretty awesome. Yeah. So that's why we can't have the OG block clocks anymore. Yeah. That and a bunch of other shit. That project is complicated.  

[00:29:29] Unknown:

We have rugged again in the chat asking if the q one can survive a hot sauna.  

[00:29:34] Unknown:

Probably.   I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't bring the batteries in.   I just actually, no. The screen might not like it. It's not a scenario that we sort of like like, you know, like, we don't we don't make that claim. We don't make sauna claims.   Yeah. Keep your device cold.   No.  

[00:29:58] Unknown:

Does it   does it survive in the freezer?  

[00:30:02] Unknown:

It's not ideal for the spring, but kind of. Yeah. I mean, make sure Like a middle ground temperature, you kinda The problem. Oh, so the problem with temperature changes, especially on the cold side, is that you could have a little bit of moisture under a chip.   And then once that, like, expands,   right, because it freezes, it could actually pop the chip up a little bit and just enough to to break a.   So, yeah,   That's why, you know, it's nicer to use lead paste, which is not allowed anymore in North America, but, like, unlike the army, the army is allowed to use southern, lead southern paste. Yes. Lead also, like, dip the tank rounds in uranium.   Yeah. I mean, but that's depleted, and and they do it because it sharpens itself and it penetrates things. Kinda cool. Yeah. We need a cold card with that for you guys. That's right. It's gonna be heavy. That's a very heavy metal.  



[00:30:50] Unknown:

What's the TTP on the new, q one?  

[00:30:54] Unknown:

I mean, it's sexy.  

[00:31:00] Unknown:

Cursory cursory   shill.   If you don't wanna give MBK your mailing address, you can now pick up Koincui products at Bitcoin Park. We're starting with the cold card MK 4 and the Tap signer.  

[00:31:12] Unknown:

Yeah, man. I'm pretty excited about it. You know, just ship to you guys if you guys do the selling. It's an honor and a privilege.   It's the first people   ever, like, that we ever try to do, physical sales.   So it's not in our custody.  

[00:31:26] Unknown:

There you go. Now it's in my custody.  

[00:31:29] Unknown:

So so, therefore, Matt If the money disappears, it's Matt's fault now. Yeah. Yeah. 1 of 2. Spooks. 1 of 2.  

[00:31:36] Unknown:

No. The cool part about the cold card is that it's extremely hard to tamper even if it's just gliders. Bag, you know, the cereal. If I was selling,   you know, a non secure element on, that'd be a whole different story.  

[00:31:45] Unknown:

They will all be Pam. Like, all beyond. But, you know, it doesn't take much for somebody to go to,   to Best Buy, Buy every ledger that there is, which is a very secure device. Right? And then   load them all with seeds.   Like, literally just dog, dog, dog, dog. Yeah. That's what they're doing on the eBay. Right? And then, like, go and put them all back on the shelf.  

[00:32:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Because people just get it and they just start using it and they just don't even think about it. I mean, you know. They were doing that on, like, Amazon and eBay and stuff. We're just lucky that our users are a little bit more, like, on the on the on the sort of, like, a little more advanced. A little bit more advanced side. It was weird. We I think what happened They're at least putting more care into it. Right. Because it's cold card's easier to use than people think it is, I would say. But, like Yeah. Definitely.  

[00:32:28] Unknown:

I we were doing this workshop,   like, me and Rich for Blockstream, the jade, and we had to explain at the beginning. It's like, don't ever do this. Get   a jade device or whatever device that someone gave you and opened and charged. And that's exactly what you're doing. I was like, you literally are just, like, making all these useless, like, before  

[00:32:48] Unknown:

the workshop.  

[00:32:51] Unknown:

Yeah. But that device is, like, pretty pretty cheap to make. Like,   it's a it's a package called m 5 stack. Yep.  

[00:32:58] Unknown:

The m 5 stack is pretty cool. Yeah. It is. It's a lot of fun too for games and,  

[00:33:03] Unknown:

you know, feeding chickens and things like that.   Is that what? Pollo feed? Pollo feed? Yeah. Yeah. No. I don't know if they they might use a Raspberry Pi.  

[00:33:14] Unknown:

That is I can't believe that guy convinced us to feed his chickens for all these years. Everyone is a scammer, man. My favorite thing. I swear, that's my favorite Bitcoin application.  

[00:33:22] Unknown:

I I wanna see, like,   a, like, an audit or, like, you know,   a a, like, a 10 k of, like, how that Pollo feed performed. Like, it is. It's probably killing it because I know everyone goes on there and feeds it. That's, like, the first thing you do. Oh. See the vouchers on TVC.  

[00:33:37] Unknown:

Really?   Amazing.  

[00:33:40] Unknown:

Actually, but at Visa, that for some reason, the head of crypto or whatever at Visa   loves,   Pollo Feed. So he would go into all these, like, executive board meetings.   Like, the, you know, CEO of Visa would be, like, feed we'd show him feeding chickens on the lightning net. And, like, that's what that's what, like, made it click for a lot of people. I mean, they they still want their NFTs, shit, coins too. So cats. Is there? Yeah. Yeah. That one's pretty good as well. Will you feed cats? Lightning cats. Oh, you feed cats? You feed cats. Yeah. I think you do. That's not as what do you feed them? I don't know. I didn't see the cats there when they put on to it. So Catnip would be fun. Oh, catnip. Crazy to take it take it back.  

[00:34:19] Unknown:

Right?  

[00:34:24] Unknown:

I mean, probably, like, Nasser is the biggest application of lightning right now. I mean, damn out of you, but they broke At least custodial lightning. Yeah. The the you know, I know. I use Breeze all the time there. I'm not oh, to pay invoices. Yeah. Yeah. But but how are they receiving it?   Yeah. I think they're also a lot of people are using Breeze.  

[00:34:41] Unknown:

They're Does Breeze lost Satoshi. It's his like Does Breeze  

[00:34:45] Unknown:

doesn't give you a lightning address?  

[00:34:47] Unknown:

No. You can just put an invoice. It works already on on Domas.  

[00:34:51] Unknown:

Any any lightning voice gets Oh, no. No. Yeah. That's for, like, individual posts. But, like, every the people that have it in their profile is Allen URL. That's, Albie.  

[00:35:00] Unknown:

A lot of people the my guide, which is a lot of people that follow, he was on out with 2 Albie. Yeah. But just to bring us back full circle, the majority of people that are receiving,  

[00:35:08] Unknown:

Nostra are using custodial lightning  

[00:35:11] Unknown:

Well, okay. But but the, there was kind of, like, this very it felt kind of, like, a viral moment of just, like, people realize it's kinda like the light like a lightning torch 2.0. Like, people realize, like, you post  

[00:35:23] Unknown:

a a invoice Someone will pay it. Someone will pay. It says, like Hopefully, someone like fat fingers into it. Tony just shook his head about the lightning torch.  

[00:35:32] Unknown:

And  

[00:35:35] Unknown:

I I think there's already a 2 point o, so that'd be 3 What was 2 point o? I thought there was a lightning torch. It was, like, a year later. There was a bunch of sued, man. You better shut the hell up. It's a right point o.  

[00:35:45] Unknown:

And it's bottlenecks too. Like   I   mean, even I like, I'm using   it's not, like, fully custodial,   lightning address on I mean, it is.   It is. It's fully   fully fully. So guy what Geyser dot fund does is they give me a lightning address,   and then as soon as it receives a payment, they take they take their fee and then they forward it to my real note. So it's, you know, momentarily custodial, but I don't think that goes.  

[00:36:14] Unknown:

But it's Why don't you run, like,  

[00:36:16] Unknown:

why don't you have your own lightning address? Someone stole his node. We I mean, I've just been waiting Tony? I'm just I'm just humbly waiting for bolt 12. You know? I just like, I could take this minimal custodial risk right now.   Take a very, very long time. PC pays over. Never say never. Don't believe the 2 weeks. Never believe the 2 weeks. I would love if you put in key send, like, podcasting 2 point o, where I could just post my public key in there. Like, Why do I even need to put a landing address? It should just be the pub key in my note. I already have it. No. But it's nice to have an address that's canonical for humans. Right? So, like, [email protected].   It's great. Yeah. But it's already on my account, which is already  

[00:36:52] Unknown:

economical. By the way, the other problem that we have with this whole DNS thing for this kind of addressing is that everybody thinks it's email.   Like, I'm getting so much email on that.  

[00:37:03] Unknown:

Yeah. The trick is you just don't put a you don't attach it to an email, and you just let it just die out in the Use nvk.k. You know? Yeah. I will. Who has that? Do you have that, Tony? I do. No, Ben. Ben has it. You guys gotta explain this thread. That was hilarious. For, like, 10 q ones. Should we do a deal right here? I'll make a trade. Yeah. There you go.  

[00:37:21] Unknown:

I'll I'll trade, I'll trade you,  

[00:37:24] Unknown:

pickle Tony. Oh, yeah. Got you. Did I actually buy that today? No. I haven't had a chance. The gay TLD is ridiculous. Like, they're making 1,000,000 of dollars on just troll. The worst is name cheap gets you in for $3 the 1st year and then $30 the next year. So they're, like Minor coming up. Oh, it it it's because it's because Ben has Vivek dot soy or something or Vivic dot k. Right now. Like, right now sucks is the major rep pool. They increase prices sometimes by a lot when it's, like, a premium. Yeah. To be clear, that's not Namecheap. That's the TLD owner. Like, you spend, like, 500,000   to a $1,000,000,   Yeah. To get the end. Yeah. G t l d's. And then once you get that end, you can charge whatever the fuck you want for the end. Yeah. But it's still like the It used to be just a 100 k's again. Like the country of Tuvalu, like the majority of their GDP is dot TV. That's a lot. But it's just supposed to be there. But countries don't have to pay for theirs because they just get it for being existing. How much land do you need to be a country? Yeah. Yeah.  



[00:38:19] Unknown:

It's like some land domain arb we're doing? Like I do remember you. I mean, if Portugal can be a country, or just act to come, you know, you're good, man. Yeah. That's true. And Ghislaine Maxwell is trying to make her own country in the in the sea.   That that always ends well. You watch Waterworld? Isn't she's in jail, isn't she? Yeah. She was.  

[00:38:39] Unknown:

She got out?  

[00:38:40] Unknown:

No. She was trying to make the country. She's I thought she had didn't she have a house in New Hampshire? Yeah.  

[00:38:46] Unknown:

She hasn't been suicided?  

[00:38:48] Unknown:

No.   Didn't they I saw somewhere, like, they figured out sodi   Epstein took, like, sodium something, like, nitrate or something like that to suicide. I I don't know if it was real. Yeah. He definitely he definitely did that to himself. Yeah.  

[00:39:05] Unknown:

Why is your phone at the Yeah. Oh, sorry. I think she said in court, like, I don't think he killed himself, which is  

[00:39:11] Unknown:

That's what we've seen. Yeah. Super hot take. The bomb.  

[00:39:17] Unknown:

Super hot take.  

[00:39:21] Unknown:

We shouldn't go down this route. Yeah. No. We we can't say any more than that. Otherwise,  

[00:39:27] Unknown:

I worry for I don't wanna kill my Everyone's happy, healthy. What else  

[00:39:31] Unknown:

what else she's not gonna be able to figure out where to point that. Compliance. What a we had a we had a fantastic bit devs. We had a fantastic bit devs on Tuesday here,   and you knew it was a good bit devs because I didn't understand 50% of it.   Like, let's talk about something that was interesting there. What was what what what piqued your interest there?  

[00:39:49] Unknown:

What piqued my interest is so   as you can tell from all the podcasts being recorded, majority of the Spiral team was here. They're doing fantastic   work   on, Taproot related lightning,   innovations.   LND is leading the charge, but they're, you know, implementing a lot of the really other cool   stuff regarding music too. So they're,   doing what's unadvised rolling their own crypto, but just to, you know, test interoperability,   things like that.   I think the frost stuff   is going to be very interesting because then you can split one of the keys of your channel,   like, on that side to be, like, potentially a hardware wallet or something like that. And then, you know, Spryl is also given a verified lightning signer   a grant just like, you know, Core Lightning. We're also working with them. So the whole space is getting further and further, and   it seems that,   now we're back at the point where we have to figure out how we announce these Taproot channels and the gossip,   aspects. And I guess maybe Tony or Ben can touch on a bit more. And I know people are thinking about, like,   Starks and other potential, like, ZK approves for these too. So that whole convo was   over my head, but fantastic.  



[00:41:07] Unknown:

And I I think no one's figured out the gossip stuff, but I thought it was really interesting, like, hearing I guess I can't say who, but some of the spiral folks were, like, talking about,   like, you know, you could do tap your channels like the dumb way or, quote, unquote dumb way of, like, just doing, like, normal music, but they're trying to get it so you could have, like, a multisig lightning node that still works with your lightning channel and stuff and, like, all these nonce problems that's hard, but, like, they're actually trying to solve instead of just, like A multisig lightning node would be dope. Yeah. Mhmm.   I was joking with Matt last night. Like, you have a geographically distributed lightning node, like, one key is in Australia, one key is in America, one key is in, like, Asia.  



[00:41:46] Unknown:

The latency would be terrible, but I was about to say that's horrible. Interactivity,  

[00:41:50] Unknown:

all those rounds. Yeah. Over torque. It would be interesting. Over yeah. Right. So, like, almost happened that I I I wish to dug deeper in is somebody from BDKS,   somebody from LDK. It's like,   well, you know, are you guys doing this in manuscript?   And they're not doing it in manuscript, but it would be really interesting if you if you if you had   the this new type of channel   in Mini Script because it'd be it wouldn't have just be something special a special snowflake that only node implementations  

[00:42:20] Unknown:

understand. It it would be a standardized thing that anything understands mini script could be watching this address. It's actually like a really stupid thing that I think they're doing. Like, I've been following the thread on the polar quest for the the spec, and it's like   there's like the current way they have it written is, like, one   weight unit larger   just because it's more readable. It's like but you could do it the mini script way. It's smaller on chain   and, like, yeah, like, works with, like, BDK and stuff, but it's   less readable, so they don't wanna do it. But I don't know. Why don't you submit a pull request? It already is a pull request. But, yeah, there's a there's a ton of there's a ton of comments, like, debating it. So, I mean, maybe I should advise act in that course. Add another project. Yeah. Yeah.  

But, no, it is interesting.  

[00:43:06] Unknown:

And, it was interesting also them talking about PTLCs   and how, like,   figuring that out. You know, like, it's one thing to have just, like,   our snore aggregation stuff and, like, whatever nested stuff for the frost, but then to do PTLCs, like, per hop, that seems like  

[00:43:24] Unknown:

a ways out.   Like, getting tapper channels first, getting gossip to work with tapper channels. I was talking to someone else, that night about the idea of rapid gossip sync, being able to put taproot channels that wouldn't work on the gossip, but put them in rapid gossip sync.   Because you don't need the signatures or the validation. So it's like, you know, we could have unannounced channels,   which Taproot channels in the first iteration will be that,   and kinda do that. But I think, like, one of the most interesting things to kinda see all at once in in the same space   is seeing, like, you know, all these, you know, really advanced hardcore devs, but they're also, you know, they specialize in different aspects of LDK and BDK as well. And, you know, there's a lot of spillover, but it's just really cool to see, like,   you know, acing payments getting developed by, like, you know, 1 or 2. We talked about that with Val yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. I need to go back and listen to that podcast, but it's it's just like so many,   different members of the team,   work on some of the, you know, most critical cool stuff that we're all,   take advantage of soon. So that's kind of the cool part to see that all happen at once. They're way farther along than I realized. Yeah.  

That mailing list post post that they had kinda, like, triggered, like, hey, we're we're close, but we need to think through these, like, little problems.   That's just, like, kind of the cool thing of, like, with LDK.   They don't have to solve the entire problem of making it work with the applications. That's the developer's job to make it with with the applications. If if it was l and d, they have to get the protocol support to work, and then they have to integrate it in l l and d as like a It's a consumer app, basically. Yeah. And then, like, then it's just like a few, you know, cryptography devs that are working on the l and d part, and then, you know, the rest of the team is, like, supporting all kinds of other things around l and d. So It's pretty much Lalu holding the data. I didn't wanna they didn't wanna say just that. I mean, Oliver and a lot of other, you know, good people working there as well. But,  

[00:45:21] Unknown:

but, like, for the crypto side, you know, Lallu's, like, rolled up his sleeves and really Ollie does some of it too though. Who? Holly Oliver.  

[00:45:28] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:45:29] Unknown:

I mean, you've been building mutiny off of LDK, BTK. Yeah. I mean, that's it's almost like we're building off the backs of giants really where it's like, you know, we do have to implement a lot of things ourselves,   but at least we're the developers that, like, know how to do lightning already, know how to do Bitcoin already. And we can kinda take all the advanced stuff that BDK and LDK is doing and, you know, tweak it to our own our own application. Like, BDK core,   you know, they had the original BDK, and now they're making BDK core. I think they're calling it something else now. BDK chain. V BDK chain. Yeah. But just allowing developers, you know, to do even more than they had access to before. You know, they made BDK to be really easy for developers,   but now we're kind of coming in as, like, advanced devs. And, you know, we interface with out of k a lot, b d k a lot of, like, okay, this is really cool. We wanna do this very specific hardcore thing, like, you know, how can we do that? And they were constantly iterating on ways that, like, developers can do the advanced things without,   them having to worry about, they just kinda have to, like, let us have exposure to some of those things. So,   you know, the 2 teams itself are just like, you know, the great people, really smart people.  

They get to kind of build on the tools, which, you know, that's kind of their happy place too. They love that shit. They love building on tools, and also enabling,   enabling other developers to kind of build off of their stuff. So like, that's their happy place. And then we always come in as our happy place of like, okay, well, we love, you know, building Bitcoin applications. So like, let's take the amazing tools and kinda do the the amazing stuff on our side. So Yeah. I really love it. Like,  

[00:47:03] Unknown:

I feel like like and I'm not mac crawler. I'm not gonna be able to invent lightning or do any of the fancy stuff there. But I also still know I still know a fair bit about Bitcoin and, like, if you're building on top of these other things, like, some of it's, like, things I wanna do, but, like, you know, I need to make a PR into LND or something, which I I'm not doing   with, like but with BDK and LDK, like, I can actually do most of the things, if not all the things, like, I wanna do that I know are possible just because, like, it's a library, so it enables us to do, like, all those really fancy things.  

[00:47:32] Unknown:

Yeah. And if you try to get a PR merge into LND, like, LND can be used as a library. Right? But it's mostly a node application, their node application. So it's like we saw Breeze just get fed up with l and d and trying to merge pull request in the l and d because, like, no. No. This isn't, you know, safe for the node, or we don't wanna do it in this way. And then their PRs go nowhere. They end up running a fork   of of l and d that's, like, at some very old version.  

[00:47:57] Unknown:

Same with Moon.  

[00:47:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Same with Moon. Same with a lot of people that fork l and d. They they're at, like, some insecure, like, you know,   0 dot 10 version.  

[00:48:07] Unknown:

Pre Barak attack? Yeah. Pre Barak attack. I mean, they must have then they have to update password. I don't if their clients were syncing  

[00:48:15] Unknown:

the tip the chain, I don't think they have. Is there some consular   consider sort of, like, effort to just have, like, an actual fork  

[00:48:22] Unknown:

fork. A community fork of Boundary? Yeah. But, like, people know we brought that up. With proper sort of, like, people maintaining it and, you know I think it's the only people that can maintain it are Lightning Labs employees. Like,   it's such a huge project. It's, like, hard to find anyone else that could maintain it. And because of the b t c d dependencies,  

[00:48:40] Unknown:

like,   Lalu's, like,   the man, you know, like, all the crypto stuff, like, there's just few people as good as him with Go libraries and that crypto.  

[00:48:50] Unknown:

And, like, the only   major   Lighting Labs is Carla. And,   yeah, and she she's just a former Lighting Labs employee.   And, so it's, like, kind of a hard problem.  

[00:49:03] Unknown:

I do I do believe Breeze is not on the super old fork now because what the one blocker feature that they were looking for is is in L and D now.  

[00:49:13] Unknown:

So Well, Breeze is on green light now. So that's but yeah. No. It's on green light now.  

[00:49:18] Unknown:

Everyone's hedging after the, you know, bugs. It's good to have, like, how about sea lightning?  

[00:49:23] Unknown:

No.   No.   It's sea lightning. It's it's it's it's fun  

[00:49:28] Unknown:

until you have to build on it,   and you realize it's not as fun as you thought it would be. What? Core lightning? Core lightning. I mean, like, you know, we we we like the Prefer the old name. Right. Like like, I'm at voltage right now, and we're building   an LSP project on top of,   on top of CLN. As, you know, we kinda looked at the landscape, saw what we could do. There's some protocols splicing itself. It's just huge for LSPs.   So it was like, okay, it made sense to, like, do that. And then now we're going, you know, we did a proof of concept. We're like, oh, okay. That was easy. You know, let's let's keep going down the route of building on CLN and like all the edge cases, all the things that we had to commit into the the repo to kind of get it to work.   Now to be fair, we're on the bleeding edge of, like, some of the tech that they're doing. So, like, you know, and they've been really responsive and and had a lot of calls to, like, get it to work. But in general, like, the the developer ecosystem was just miles   beyond,   and and and, like, l and d is just miles beyond CLN as far as developer experience. So, like, as much as we all love to hate on l and d sometimes,   it's just the best developer experience by far.  

Until you wanna do advanced shit, and then And that's why mutiny, you're doing LDK. Yeah.   You code it all yourself. So So then you only have yourself to blame. Like, oh, why doesn't this work? Oh, well, I coded that up. So that's why. Well, I I also see, like, there's a growth of, like,  

[00:50:51] Unknown:

Zoomers or people generally wanting to learn Rust. I'm starting to learn Rust.   I think LDK and BDK are riding that wave, and it's really working out for them.  

[00:51:01] Unknown:

Yeah. It's just the better language to I really hope that Rust takes all the JavaScript developers and the JavaScript dies. That's the hope. It just becomes TypeScript bindings? When are you gonna rewrite  

[00:51:11] Unknown:

all your shitty Python   in Rust?  

[00:51:14] Unknown:

I mean   I mean, it's like you don't know my shop.   Like, literally never.   We would go to see your assembly before we go to Rust. Really? I mean, a lot of, like, a lot of cold card to c. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, embedded Assembly too. We we we wrote some The embedded ecosystem  

[00:51:32] Unknown:

seems to just really light Rust. Yeah. The hobby. Yeah. Hobby. Exactly. The tinkerers, but, like, the OGs, like, they're still sea wizards. Real men do it for assembly.  

[00:51:43] Unknown:

If this can't be memory unsaved, I I don't even wanna be a part of it.  

[00:51:47] Unknown:

There is no memory safety when you're talking about embedded, man. That's all an illusion.   Oh, there's like a dependency choices. Right? There is no dependencies either because there's no room.  

[00:52:00] Unknown:

There's like this This is mostly implementing yourself. There's like this, like, semi famous story of,   someone was, like, they, like, joined a job   and they're, like, it was, like, the a missile embedded chip. And they're, like, this thing has a huge memory leak. We gotta fix this. And I'm, like, we don't need to fix that. It's gonna blow up at the end. Like  

[00:52:17] Unknown:

Ultimate garbage   Right. The ultimate garbage collect. They just, like, doubled the size of the memory. Like, we're we're good. Like  

[00:52:25] Unknown:

yeah.  

[00:52:28] Unknown:

Yeah. That pretty much sums up the work of Quaintite.  

[00:52:33] Unknown:

They're gonna shoot it with a gun. Yeah. Listen. It's like  

[00:52:36] Unknown:

I mean, that session only needs to last so long. No. I'm kidding. No. It's   we we somebody tested the 28 days   countdown,   to log into a cold card so we know that the survival I have one stuck in it. There you go. So it's like has cold car again. If you leave it running, you actually not crash. I've never made it.   Because I like, the power goes out or, like That's a different put in a power button. I unplug it or I get, you know because guys are using it as HSMs. Right? So, like, they actually have it connected to servers. Oh, shit. This is new. I don't know if we released It was a test cold card, so I just gave up. Like, I didn't need alpha coming. You can you can unlock Gailey now on freebieST with a cold card.   So you can have Gailey,   I know what Gailey is. Oh, it that's like the real deal disc encryption.  

Like, this is this is where you wanna be if you wanna do disc encryption.   So you can use a cold card   to unlock the disc encryption   on boot of FreeBSD using Geli.   We released a video. I think I thought the video was already out, but What is the what is that protocol? Are you signing something? Or Yeah. You're providing the keys.   So the your full card gives us a key? Or Yeah. So there's a CK bunker with that? No. Oh, it's not even a CK bunker. Oh, okay. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It is. Because, you know, like, for example, we have, like, some sensitive machines that program things and whatever, right, like industrial stuff. And we're like, we don't trust any shit that the manufacturers, like, give you for securing the machines. We're, like, no. Everything is on code card standard here.   And we replace all the window the the the Windows boxes that cover this industrial machines, the free BSD.  



[00:54:16] Unknown:

So that's, that's a lot of fun. It's pretty crazy that it's, like, $200 HSM.  

[00:54:20] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a 150, really. Yeah. I round it up within Yes.   It's a lot of   the q one is $200. Yeah. That's right.  

[00:54:30] Unknown:

I'm still, like, wondering when we can finally get or when someone finally does the effort and try to get, like, the cold card,   HSM stuff to work with lightning. Like, I think that would be really cool. It's a it's it's a project, man. Mhmm. Like, I mean theoretically possible. Yeah. It's just like someone has to build it. Right? Yeah. I mean, like, maybe you guys could, you know, like Bunker on Munich. Rebooting. Coming 2 years to you. If you use Rust, you could integrate with the industry. I can't hear you.  

[00:54:54] Unknown:

My my  

[00:54:55] Unknown:

your phone is not working. With being written with embedded targeting in mind.  

[00:55:01] Unknown:

We'll we'll get the rest bindings to c or the micro Python. We'll figure it out. We'll make it happen. No. No. No. Ideally, what you would do is  

[00:55:08] Unknown:

you would reimplement   LDK   as a code card.   Right? Because he needs to understand because the difference between, like, you know, standard Bitcoin stuff and Lightning stuff is that the HSM and Lightning,   it's all about the policies, but the policies understand Lightning.   Right? So you have to have the full stack in there,  

[00:55:26] Unknown:

which it's doable. It's just a VLS style. Yeah. It would be more realistic. VLS take their policies   and Yeah. Something that Try try to stick it into the the into the Part 4. The simulator. Oh, simulator. Yeah. Just go to the simulator and try to stick it in there. See see if you can make it, like, just dark. Okay. Yeah. I've looked at it once before. Like, I had no idea how to interact with it. So I was like, okay. I'm I'm leaving. So, I need I need to one day. Like, it it it seems really cool to be able to use,  

[00:55:54] Unknown:

use it as a HSL. I always wanted that. It's just you know, it's completely out of scope for, like, our priorities. So that's why it's so hard. I mean, it's like a major project. Mhmm. And, like, we just don't have the cycles. Even in just the naive, like, blind signing, we'll be cool to see if it's possible.   Well, that's already possible because you could do message digest   signing,   like, you know, in ACDSA. So, like, it's fine. Like, you you could do that now if you wanted to, but I don't see the point. Like Yeah. Yeah. Just to experiment. Just Yeah. On it. You know? You you you could definitely do. I'd love to see somebody stick,   you know, like, LG Key or something like that in that   2 weeks. 2 weeks. Okay.  

Mutiny. You guys heard it here. Mutiny,  

[00:56:34] Unknown:

mutiny CK Bunker. It's In your web browser. Mobile Safari. We all have we all schedule things terribly.   There's there's, like, an Austin,  

[00:56:44] Unknown:

you know, Sats card hack a thon or NFC hackathon going on right now. Really? Yeah. In Austin. It's just NFCs, not Sats card. The Bolt NFC cards. Right? I I was told it's basically, like, they're trying to go after the Breeze, Tap Signer, or SaaS card. Like It's completely different thing. Like, the the bolt card is, like, essentially, like, just like a a hotel card.   Right? The the there's no securing it's just like a it's just like a l n euro in there. The TAP signer runs native Bitcoin script. Right? Yeah. So, like, we reimplemented the the Bitcoin stack,   so that,   Sats not Sats card, Tap Signer   can essentially do Bitcoin message digest signing  

[00:57:23] Unknown:

inside. Okay. So I can't just clone it on my flipper 0 like Bolt's card? Doesn't know. Yeah. You can see, that's the thing. The Bolt's card, because it's kinda like a hotel we've done it. Me and H. O, we're screwing around with But you can't do that with the taps on. No. You can't do that. Well, me me and were screwing around with Jonas, Nick, and was, like, trying to use his phone to replicate that because we were trying to buy beer with, like, the Oh, listen. We've advanced,  

[00:57:45] Unknown:

like, very advanced   ways of of cloning,   like, a, s t like, NFC cards. You could probably do it. Right? It's just there's a limit to the security of a card that cost that much. Right?   But,   but it's a completely different thing. Like, Bolt is, like, this sort of, like, very clever way of having a linear out on a NFC card. It's still security,  

[00:58:05] Unknown:

and that just points to their centralized stuff. Website. Right? Yeah. And they they kinda do program it to be, like, one time use. Yeah. So you But you could point it to Albi.   Program it.  

[00:58:16] Unknown:

I think you can. Yeah. You You definitely can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. But I can load any card with like, I can load the the I'm just saying that second part where you're like   and then it points to their centralized you can point to someone else's centralized site. You can point to your own web server if you wanted to. Yeah.   Yeah. Some people do that. I mean, I saw that all in Amsterdam. A lot of people just reprogram the gold cards to the ground. Cards with my l and euro.  

[00:58:42] Unknown:

Oh, but then everyone would oh, yeah. Your own personal ones. I thought the My personal one on my, personalized card. I mean, you see my stats card of my dots that are my ordinal. I'm trying to really have a brand, a consistent brand. Your inscription. That's right. My  

[00:58:57] Unknown:

get it right.  

[00:58:59] Unknown:

God. It's it's that boat has sailed.   Everybody's gonna call inscriptions ordinals.  

[00:59:04] Unknown:

Well, he owns the domain for that too. The you you look them up on ordinals dotcom. Right? Yeah. So there you go. His own fault there. Yeah. Well, I was always confused because ordinals is actually some other number theory shit too. Right? Math thing. Right? Yeah.   I don't know.   I thought that was astrology is ordinals. Casey first told me about ordinals, like, a year ago, and I was just like, hopefully, I just don't have to ever know what this is. And then he just kept pushing, kept pushing. I I heard it a while back, and I'm like, I don't understand what's going on. I told him last night. I distilled   my feeling toward this, and I'm proudly mad.  



[00:59:40] Unknown:

Yeah. It is it is, like, brilliant.   Like, no state actor has been able to put dick butts on Bitcoin. Like and then this dude comes out of nowhere. I'm not even mad that they exist. I'm just mad that  

[00:59:53] Unknown:

it's like something that's being discussed. Like, it's something I have to think about. I'm just mad because at Tabcom, right after the the Barak bug, we were all talking about we were gonna put Sahil's face on the blockchain. Yeah. Away.   Like, put us put a 4 megabyte  

[01:00:08] Unknown:

picture saw him. Do you have that thing? Fork ordinals and use the octal the octal system   to do the filtering.   So now you're competing  

[01:00:17] Unknown:

for the It's a different algo. Yeah. For the But we have a different algo Yeah. To No. But now there's like a mythology around it and stuff. Right? That's the funny thing. You get the Octo the the octal stuff also has mythology. That's something no one else could no one else could pull this off besides Casey. No. No. So so he's talking about, like, the sat ordering or whatever? You can have a different album instead of, like, the first one, like, you do, like, the middle out or, like, whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. You just, like, fuck around.  

[01:00:42] Unknown:

You know, would have been very appropriate. That would've been great.  

[01:00:46] Unknown:

Someone's gotta send me that Sawhill picture again. I think I lost it. Took it. I know, but it was on my old phone. Oh, no sense. Yeah.  

[01:00:53] Unknown:

It's so good. Oh my gosh. Is there a post glad we have the bands on this show.   We have a lot of people in the audience right now, and the chat is very active. I I apologize  

[01:01:01] Unknown:

for we'll we'll post signals. We'll post the Sahil.  

[01:01:06] Unknown:

Now we're we're Sahil's messaging me now, actually. We're going in waves and frequencies, you know, a lot of signal, then a lot of noise, and a lot of signal. Yeah. What next? That's kinda how my brain is right now after 3 days of being here.  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

I was I I was listening to some of the the,   pod with, Jeff and Val.   Yesterday. Yeah. And was it   is it Cash App wants, Bolt 12? Like, Cash App's pushing on them for Bolt 12? The Cash App,   Cash App does not have lightning address support and would like to add bolt 12. Yeah.  

[01:01:39] Unknown:

Justin working on bolt 12 for So there is chance that we get bolt 12 before the next having? And same with strike. Yeah. Strike too? Nice. And  

[01:01:47] Unknown:

and hats off to Carla. She's at, chain code now, supposedly hacking on that too for the l and d code base.  

[01:01:54] Unknown:

Can can we do, instead of onion messages, can we just use, noster   for bolt well?  

[01:01:59] Unknown:

I will not step or open that can of worms. I think we can  

[01:02:05] Unknown:

I'd say noster all the things, but I think when you're messaging, it probably makes more sense.  

[01:02:11] Unknown:

Yeah. There's there's this onion message, FUD, still about, like, rate limits, and I just yeah. We talked about that yesterday. Yeah. That's not a bad thing.  

[01:02:20] Unknown:

What? Like, having like, the fact that you get some rate limiting. No. There is no rate limit. Well, but there there is because it's just inefficient. Mhmm. Yeah. That's the same reason why, you know, you don't need Cloudflare if you use, Indian addresses.  

[01:02:32] Unknown:

It's just so slow.  

[01:02:36] Unknown:

Nobody can do DDoS on Tor.  

[01:02:40] Unknown:

They can just DDoS the entire Tor network into That's right.  

[01:02:45] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm I'm really curious what that latency will be like in the payments. Like, how how much   time is that gonna be, if you have, like, a multi hopper out   and you you know, you you want that Visa experience for payments. Like, how much how much more time is a Bolt 12, you know, sending messages back and forth to, like, hey. Get me an invoice, and it comes back. It kinda really feels like that. I mean, like, even when you just pay a standard, like, you know, like Very rarely  

[01:03:12] Unknown:

instant.  

[01:03:13] Unknown:

It it feels that way. See, like, if we move from QR's to NFC payment, it would be a lot better because the camera still takes a while, you gotta open the thing, point. Yeah. If you're just, like, like, you know, just tapping your phone to those terminals,  

[01:03:26] Unknown:

And it's the same spec. It could be the exact same data. Especially for, like, if you want to start putting a bunch of route hints in or a bunch of trampolines   or blinded  

[01:03:36] Unknown:

stuff. It's interactive.  

[01:03:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So if you if you wanted to, yeah, put something beefy in there,   to help the the speed and success of the payment, it would you gotta use NFC because, yeah, QR codes just max out unless you do start doing, like, anime Animations. Yeah. I know. But out there with the stand. Like, you're the cashier trying to hold your phone. Can you please turn on the lights, sir? Is that bright enough? Yeah.  

[01:03:59] Unknown:

You know, and then you have the cold car. So it's the flash light. Is like, ah.  

[01:04:04] Unknown:

Well, that's why the cold car has a flashlight. Right?  

[01:04:07] Unknown:

Throw it in. You're not using that at a club, please.   No. But seriously, like, I wanna see NFC happen, like, because it's just so much better. There's a reason why that stuff lipfrogged   in North America, like, the chip and pin and everything else. Like, you guys went straight to that here, especially in the US. Like, it's good and it's, like,   fast and it's high bandwidth.   So and it can even power, like, the the device. Anyway, it's just like a bunch of things it can do.  

[01:04:37] Unknown:

Wait. Did we leapfrog? I feel like we were stuck on the magnetic stripe. Or yeah.  

[01:04:42] Unknown:

You guys you guys never had chip and pin in our familiar. It was, like, very brief in the US. That's very yeah. You went straight from, like, magnetic to,   tap.   We   they forced that, though. I just got a tap card, like, this month. Yeah. But but then you also almost skipping the card in North America. Right? Like, you're going to the phone with Apple Pay and Android Pay and all that crap. No. Fuck all that. I hate that shit. I know. Put that I prefer you don't So he's, like, having cash and, like, still coins. Like  

[01:05:10] Unknown:

We're working on this at Visa, like, 2 or 3 years ago when I was there. The NFC,  

[01:05:14] Unknown:

actual, like, comms. Well, I still use cash. I don't use coins. So, yeah, go to your favorite wallet developer and say, please,  

[01:05:21] Unknown:

I need NFC, sir. Yeah. We need some NFC in the browser.  

[01:05:25] Unknown:

No. We don't   need that. No. We don't need that at all. Right? Actually, like, on Android, NFC works on Chrome. Oh, yeah. Same with the this. Like, when you tap, you can open on the browser. Right? No. No. He means the opposite, though. But Yeah. But NFC You can do that. And forth.  

[01:05:43] Unknown:

It's more limited.   Apple lets you do a few things, if I remember it, but not much. Okay. Android, you can essentially have full  

[01:05:50] Unknown:

full phone of the phone. It's like root access.   Program, I I think that too.  

[01:05:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Guess you could have the UX. You know, the UX right now of the holding your phone over something and the, the,   the the   the URL pops up, and so then you tap that and that that opens. That could be the thing that opens your lightning wall. Because, like, I'm sorry. Even need that because if you're using an app, right, now you could just open a WebSocket   to your server that offer things. Right? But you gotta you have to I'm talking about the the the the I mean, the tap the beauty of Tap 2 page, you don't even unlock your phone. You, like Yeah. Don't You can do the same. It's just a permission thing. Right? So, like, having even the the friction of having to, like, unlock your phone, find your lightning app, you open that app. Open the app. Because whichever app has the URI  

[01:06:40] Unknown:

set for that   data type, right, that you're gonna get from the terminal, it's just gonna   open. Because you can make, say, like your Breeze be your default. So, like, once you tap, and you could have Breeze can have a mode that's the lock phone mode so that you would allow to certain threshold of size or whatever. Right? So technically, you could do the same as Apple Pay.   Right? Like with lightning, if you were using NFC. That'd be really beautiful. And and this is already all possible if people just did it. Like, it's not like there's a barrier.  

[01:07:12] Unknown:

If it's a browser while it just did it. Well, I was gonna ask on the the barrier part specifically, like, is this just because everyone has those those square terminals and NFC stuff there, like, but I'm probably understanding that those are pretty closed off. Like, are we gonna be able to have something open where, like, people can do that? I imagine that if you get yourself, like, a a sanction app  

[01:07:35] Unknown:

in the those terminals,   you probably get access to the NFC reader, you know, within like, strike they have Striking Clover. Right? Like, the Striking Clover and That would be I'm sure, you know, there's some limits to what they're gonna allow you to do just because it was not even necessary before, but it's probably enough for you to accomplish this this dance. Right? Yeah. Because we almost need that first. We're not it's already out there. Okay. And then all and then there is all these terminals that are running, say, like,   Zeus, all the Bitcoin only sort of payment terminals. They could be doing that right now. I mean, there's nothing really holding people back. Zeus now supports NFC,   the new version.  

So so, like, you know, why not? I mean, let's make it happen.  

[01:08:17] Unknown:

I mean, they would they would love both sides of it. Right? They'd love the merchant side where they have the POS and then take a cut there, and they'd also love to make the card that works with it that also takes the cut. Like, selling you the actual card or whatever   your bank account with them, like, they wanna have both and have the closed loop.  

[01:08:36] Unknown:

Could you have   could you have a a node   on the POS   that is dumb and it doesn't have any   knowledge. And then and then somehow your NFC is just a card   and it it signs something. Thing. And so they, like, they set up the node for you right there in the POS. I mean, you could, but, like, why not just have Internet connectivity. Oh, I see. Anything. Yeah. I mean why not? I mean you could do  

[01:09:03] Unknown:

it. You can actually use the phone's connection.   To so this can be pretty crazy. So say, for example, you have the the   an on the other side. Right? So on the terminal.   Right? You send the money to that because now the phone knows what what ID that is because there might be some other invoice aspects to it. Right? And then your phone broadcast that   to the node that owns the terminal  

[01:09:29] Unknown:

that is on the Internet. Mhmm. You get, like, a proof of payment That's right. Attached to the Yeah. Cash. So that was really cool what Ben did with the PIN code and the l n URL  

[01:09:38] Unknown:

where you get a PIN. Yeah. And by entering the PIN, the receiver can be offline and still verify that they got paid. Vending machines where the vending machine can It was offline. Yeah. That was pretty cool. I know I mean, I I know that, you know, they work on a lot of cool NFC,   integrations   with that.  

[01:09:55] Unknown:

I mean, all all Bitcoin, like, lightning wallets will have NFC in the next sort of, like, year or 2. It might just be It is inevitable.  

[01:10:02] Unknown:

You think in the next year?  

[01:10:04] Unknown:

Year or 2. Yeah. Max, 2 years. Like, it's probably I agree. Yeah. I I feel I I'd feel comfortable with 2, but this year, it'd be Once there is a couple   React   Native. Yeah. Good. Yeah. No. Once there's, like, a couple React Native, like, good, like, libraries that work on both Android and,   and iOS,  

[01:10:21] Unknown:

Like, everybody's just gonna, like, lift that and sort of use it and just be done of it. And this is React Native, and it's it works pretty well in there, so it's gotta be one good one.  

[01:10:30] Unknown:

There you go. When is on the Bitcoin company?  

[01:10:34] Unknown:

Well, it it well, it it actually solves, like, that rare use case, and I think that's what's cool about Asus.   It's in New York, and that's when they launched, like, that they finally have   a way to accept Bitcoin. A Bitcoin bar is a way to accept Bitcoin, and it's only because of Lawsky   and the BitLicense   that they cannot.  

[01:10:55] Unknown:

You know, so ever I mean, now they no. They no. Like, before, like, going through, like Or you couldn't a company that can make it easy, like OpenNode or whatever. Because they want it they want it fully integrated into the Square terminal business or whatever. I feel like it's because Yeah. I mean, for accounting purpose, they call you. Yeah. It's for all the accounting to you. Accept Bitcoin. You just can't convert it Yeah. To the exchange to Fiat, which is most merchant. They could have done, like, an iPad with BTCPay or something. Yeah. Yeah. But then there's one more thing to Yeah. Exactly. To maintain. Press the staff. It's  

[01:11:23] Unknown:

c sharp. Does Zeus hook up? So any exchanges that convert for you? Or No. I don't think so. No. I think you said? Well, I think the issue I think OpenNode converts, like, in select That's the issue is the exchange in New York is what's regulated. Exactly. Accepting big That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Zeus is going to have stats card soon. As it is working on terrible, Ben.  

[01:11:45] Unknown:

Because he can do that. He can do any other NFC stuff. Both both Ben's just announced Ben lost you. You're a Zetsi.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's coming. So you can sweep the Zets card to your wallet.  

[01:11:56] Unknown:

Let's go. I like that. Yeah. But can you use Zeus without your own lightning node, like, just on chain only? No. No. No.  

[01:12:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's what we really need. Is there but is there, like, a Nutrieno option or anything, like, I don't think so. Light client option?  

[01:12:11] Unknown:

It's like full node only. Right? You have to connect to a remote node. But my point is is we need an easy wallet that you can just tell when you give someone, like, a wedding gift and it's a SaaS card. Like, just download this wallet and all it does is basically just sweep and then let me do a hot check transaction. It's even, like That's what Linktruck does. These NFC  

[01:12:28] Unknown:

cards that you give them are   basically gifts. Yeah. Connects to their no. You can put it to their like yeah. But also but you could sweep them. Like, I would love it if, like, the URL was, like, you know, we're coming at it from the web angle. Right? So it's like you preload a URL,   maybe with some,   some data that's, like, the pre image. And then you scan, you know, scan that, it goes to the browser. If they don't have a lightning note already, it pops up and then they can, like, you know, quote unquote sweep the lightning payment into their node. I mean, your stuff could can can  

[01:12:58] Unknown:

can MeetMe run on, like, iOS,   Safari? Yeah. Mhmm. They run on an   Xbox. There you go. So, I mean, you could do it. Like, you know, is it is it ready? Switching in the VM. The the thing that, like, kinda sucks on our end is is have not being able to have that full NFC experience across all the devices. Well, that's never gonna be, like, it's always Or it's never gonna open that up. No. It's it's not that. It's like each manufacturer is gonna be spec. NFC differently.   It's never gonna be the same. Right? So there's always gonna be the it's kinda like making a release for Android, making a release for iOS. Right. It's always gonna be a little a little different. One's completely open. The other is, like,  

[01:13:38] Unknown:

very,   limited in certain, like Yeah.   Reads, but you can write or I don't know.   It's yeah. I mean, if State of hardware. If we The iPhone took forever to even open up NFC capabilities.   Yeah. They had the capability, but they just didn't let you do anything with it.  

[01:13:55] Unknown:

Well, it's you know, they they take sort of, like, the walled garden mom style sort of approach. Right? They don't   they don't want you to do the the phone, like, stuff that's gonna put you in harm, like Yeah. You know? Well, that and they want you to use their app. Yeah. Of course. I mean, of course, they're gonna take advantage of the whole to take the money while guarding. Yeah.  

[01:14:13] Unknown:

From that. So the more they open up the browser, the the more their app store. So, Matt, is that how you feel by having an Apple laptop now?   No. It's a Citadel dispatch laptop.  

[01:14:26] Unknown:

The m two is fucking insanely insanely good.  

[01:14:30] Unknown:

Matt, Matt, Matt. Go to the about this Mac Yeah. And then just look at the specs. Like, that thing is tiny. It's it's freaking magnificent. I don't use it for anything secure, but I I know. But it's a game changer. Just like if you can have, like, a terabyte or whatever, 40 gigabytes and them too, like, it actually has battery life. Like, the battery life is fucking far. Like days.  

[01:14:50] Unknown:

Does Marty know you have an Apple product? Of course, he knows. Okay. What? So I mean, do you see that there Matt just moving to to iOS phone, is it? To an iPhone store? It's been on the stream. It's been on the stream in the past.   So so yeah. There's no way I'm moving to an iPhone. I just the side loading thing experience  

[01:15:09] Unknown:

that up here? Side load. Phone.  

[01:15:11] Unknown:

No. The the difference Everything is fast. Matt likes his APKs, though. Yeah. That's where I was, like, you can at least side load something very easily on a Mac. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's ridiculous that it's even considered the side load. 2 phones. Right? Like, I have I have a Pixel phone, and I have an an iOS phone. How many siloed apps do you have?   All the ones that take the money. I don't I'm not I don't have Play Store.  

[01:15:33] Unknown:

Oh, you're like, sure. Okay. I see. Like, f droid?  

[01:15:37] Unknown:

Yeah. But sometimes, like, you also have to just, like, download from a sketchy ass website.   Because this is the problem. Right? Like, you're But it's my freedom to do that. I verified the shawsems.  

[01:15:47] Unknown:

You're your freedom to lose your money and your identity. Do you guys think in, like, the next few years, like, Apple will from some, like, monopoly pressures or whatever It's gonna happen. They already got sued. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Because, like, it's it's   they they what they would do is kind of what they did on the Mac. They're, like this is one very cool thing that Macs have. Right? It's part of OSX deep is that all packages,   like all software that comes in, it checks the signature before it runs. Right?   So, you know, because people are idiots. Like, I mean, they download shit and then, like, boom, money gone like Windows. Right?  

And and this is not for Money gone.  

[01:16:23] Unknown:

The only problem with the way Apple has done this is they make like, I can I can download Chrome? Right?   You download Chrome from   Google's website. Yeah. Double click that icon, and Apple shows you a pop up. It's like, we don't know who this is. Yeah. Probably It's a third party developer.  

[01:16:39] Unknown:

Google and Chrome is a virus. Right? It's gonna steal all your private information and send it to Google. I made a bad example. You know?  

[01:16:47] Unknown:

Correct? But, like, that's the same message, like, if I just downloaded virus dot dot, you know, p But that's but that's virus dot gov. But what if you went to what if you went to Google  

[01:16:55] Unknown:

where where, like, it's like Google with an one extra o. Right? Like, and you downloaded the bad version of Chrome. They want you to use the app stores. That's okay. They're pushing you the app store. With 3 o's or 2 o's, you're still getting the same warning, and that's not training users to actually, like, be careful. No. It's training users to go to the app store. That's right. Yeah. That's what they're trying to do. They're like, oh, too many buttons. I'm bored.  

[01:17:16] Unknown:

You You know do you know what I really would love to see in a in a OS package? It's like so you have an app store style package manager for the GUI stuff. Right? Like, for for your for your normie   everyday stuff.   And and what you do is you are able to add pub keys in there.   So pub keys of maintainers,   you can add them yourself   to the nice pretty gooey thing. So can you imagine you can add, like, all the Bitcoin core maintainer pub keys in there? Wait. This doesn't exist.   This doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. So if there is a freak out there   that that's a great objective c developer,   that wants to build this for Mac,   you know, like there is a market. I would pay, like, honestly, $20 a month   to have this this this shareware application.  

Like, you can make it stop working. What what what would it do based on those keys? It wouldn't It would check every time I open the application,   it checks   that the binary of the application still matches the key. Yeah. And I want this for every piece of software that's running on my computer with a GUI stupid so I don't have to think about it. I started a project, but then you have to verify that piece of software. No. You don't. This yeah. I mean, of course. Yeah. Check the signature when you download it. I no. You don't. It Yes. I know what you mean by that. It's like a password manager. If it gets pwned, then they have all your passwords type of thing. I started a project kinda like that called called HashCop.  

[01:18:40] Unknown:

Yeah. There you go. That was kinda the idea, and then I got stuck because Rust GPG See, that's why you don't use Rust. Was, like,  

[01:18:49] Unknown:

be based, screw Rust, just get into c. I should you should have loaded a Python.   That's assembly. C and assembly only. Yes. But I think this is a good segue,   to binary watch. You guys caught something, you said. Yeah. We we did catch  

[01:19:03] Unknown:

join markets binary. It was a it was a bad binary.   It was not an evil one. It was just that, GitHub   chained some bytes on their tar file.   Sketch as fuck by GitHub. It's probably them just testing to make sure on our toes before they give us the bad stuff. Right? So yeah. So binary watch caught it and alert it, And then we we told Adam and, like, he checked and it was true, it was bad, and then he rereleased it. So, so, yeah, we we wanna add more projects now to binary watch because it does work.  

[01:19:33] Unknown:

Doesn't I thought I saw the Twitter catch, a core lightning one too.  

[01:19:37] Unknown:

Well, sometimes there's some false positives because, like, especially when they get they release a new version, sometimes we haven't, like, gotten the thing right or they it's the same file name or, you know, it's not perfect. Right? Because this is a side project. We don't have a guy on it, like, all day every day kind of thing.   But what's cool is that once it's there, it's kinda like set it and forget it. Yeah.   And, it's on Nasser too as a bot.  

[01:20:01] Unknown:

I follow it.  

[01:20:05] Unknown:

Who who has the Noster bot? I know you got, like, the opportune bot, but who has, like, the Noster bot?   What do you mean? Is there, like, a Twitter Noster bridge bot or something?  

[01:20:14] Unknown:

We don't want that. That's bad. I hate the bridges. Yeah. Because it's it incentivizes people to just go get lazy in one of the platforms, and then everybody just ends up like, that's what happened to Mastodon. Mastodon. Yeah. You had a bot. Right? It was just all bot. Yeah. It was just bots. Repot. And then the best bots retweeting the bots. Oh, no worries. It's just so bad.  

[01:20:33] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I feel I I find less and less reason to use Twitter. Yeah. It Like, Nasr's already we've already hit at least if you're a BitCorner,   we've already hit critical mass, I feel like. Like, the discussion I wanna have is happening on Nastr. Yes.   Yeah. Well, I don't do go global feed. No global feed.  

[01:20:50] Unknown:

Good. Yeah. Is literally Chinese porn out there? Oh my god. It's the biggest news. Like, the most amount of users are Chinese fuck porn. Maybe I'm gonna use it   now. Don't tell me. You here here, pickle Tony is gonna watch the  

[01:21:06] Unknown:

Marty just became the anti noster just now. No one tell him. No one tell him. That's alright. 3 weeks. I'm swearing you to silence.  

[01:21:14] Unknown:

No. That's Well, it's tough it's tough because the global feed was really fun for discovery before before the They're sending it to sites. That that's actually really bullish because, you know, like, bandwidth and the Internet really took off because of porn. Right? Yeah. So I feel like no, sir. It's proven that there is demand. It's already approved the use case. Jeez. That's Once porn goes to it, it means you're on the right track with technology.  

[01:21:38] Unknown:

It's true, though. It it really is. I mean, gambling and porn.  

[01:21:42] Unknown:

But, yeah, they I mean, the u I mean, the DLC marketplace on, Noster, and that you really made it.  

[01:21:48] Unknown:

Yeah. The my biggest problem with Noster right now is, like, the the UX of, like, you know,  

[01:21:53] Unknown:

finding a pub like, a in pub somewhere, copy and pasting that to follow that. No. No. What is that on demos. No. No. It's just it's changing the incentives. It, like, brings it back to the value of who you're following and also who you retweet   because you're basically providing that like, all of a all of a sudden, like, the retweet actually has value again, like, who you're following has value again. It's completely different. And you can go to, like, so I was fucking around with Amethyst or a horrible fucking name. However you pronounce it. Yeah. I was making fun of Ty. And I was like, oh, we're in this group chat. Join us on Amethyst. I was like, wait. Is that, like, a brand new competitor? So part of the only reason I've got to really enjoy Noster is because I have this fucking MacBook, so I'm using the emulated Domus. Right? Like   but so I tried Amethyst because I was, like, oh, I wanna have it on mobile because I'm only on on on this laptop is the only way I can access Nostr, and it wiped all my follows, like, everyone I was following. So then when I logged into Domus,   I just I it was just a feed of myself. It was just only my post. Right? So then I had to re follow. Wait. Wait. No. There's no wiping, though. Look. It happened. You're followed, but there's also events. No no no, not who's following me, who I'm following. Yes. Whatever. It got wiped. I promise you I promise you I had to re follow people. I saw with my own two eyes and fingers.  

No. No. No. No. No. That's don't. But the way I did it No. No. No. No. Here's what happened. Ben and us too. You were pushing to a specific relay. Your follow list was going to a relay. No. I'm connected to you. You didn't bring over to to Domino's. No. You can overwrite your follow list. It's just a list of keys. Yeah. I know. But I don't think that's all. Look. There is a none of this matters. This stuff was stuck in the This part this was not the point. This no. This was not the point. Are you a liar? Paul, the the point the point was what I did was I went to NVK's   I know you had to get rid of your Chinese porn folder. The point was the point was I looked up NVK's n pub. I went to his account. I followed him, and then I I went through his follow list. And then I would pick people from there to go through their follow list. Like, that's how I did the discovery. Do you know there's gonna be soon relays of follow sets  

[01:23:54] Unknown:

for you to follow?   Like, you could just, like, sort of, like if you get into something, you can just, like you can automate this. So you can have, like, a relay that just holds follows for you. Like and there's gonna be also,   relays that offer, algo algo feeds.   Right? So you can have a feed with a decent algo. It doesn't have to be a evil algorithm. It could just be an algorithm that removes duplication of retweets, for example. Right?   And and you can follow that. All this stuff is sort of, like,   in the works by people.  

[01:24:23] Unknown:

But, anyway, my point is is that That you think discovery is good  

[01:24:28] Unknown:

because you're You actually have who follows Like, the alternative is you go into Twitter, and they decide Right. What the algo feeds you. Right? Well, but they but Twitter's had the thing where you can look at who somebody follows, but they have famously a discovery problem.   That's, like, been their biggest, like, strike versus, like, the other social network  

[01:24:46] Unknown:

is, like, people get on Twitter, and they don't know what to do. Yeah. That's why they, like, feed you all the accounts when you sign up or whatever. Like  

[01:24:53] Unknown:

But, like, yeah, I've got, like, a list  

[01:24:56] Unknown:

of in pubs. Also, MGK's website, brb.io,   CoinKite's website.   Fantastic.   Like, you can just search I'm gonna send you dead right now. Isn't it the number one chai China Relay? You can no. But no. You can search by NIP 5. Yeah. You can Which is the point I was You can search. You can do text search too. It's kinda fun. So you can just type in,   you know, Odell at rerunbtc.com,  

[01:25:18] Unknown:

and you go. Yeah. It's a 100%   That's insane. Yeah. We got, like, 256   gigabytes of RAM on this box.   But but it's bare metal. Right? Unmetered.   But it only takes really, like I think right now, we have, like, what, 1,000,000 events kind of thing. So that's like,   like, 10,   15 gigabytes.   And that includes all the caching and the picture caching.  

[01:25:42] Unknown:

But it's only been up for, like, a month. Right?  

[01:25:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I mean, majority of the events really came in the last 2 weeks.   The China bots.  

[01:25:54] Unknown:

So what do you think? I mean, we were talking before   about,   like, the paid relay phenomenon.  

[01:26:01] Unknown:

That's great.   That's, you know, that's what's gonna happen. Right? We're gonna have private relays. Maybe they're paid, maybe they're free, but but they're, like, sort of, like, invite only, so you have to whitelist,   pubkey for people to do it. So, for example, say, you know, we have a Someone did that for like, they just were, like, Odell, like, I white listed your pub key on there. Yeah. So, like, say, we have, like, a a group of friends. Right? Like, that sort of has, like, a large Venn diagram here. Right?   We saw I go, like, you know, I just invite you all and know your own is really and it could be commingled in the fit not in the feed if everybody else. Like a Bitcoin Park real quick. Thing is, you know, like, say it's, like, you know, may say maybe, like, the main feed is a little too busy this week, you know, you can just sort of, like, turn it off. Right?  



[01:26:42] Unknown:

I've got a work call, but I love you guys. Appreciate you, Paul. See you, Paul. Hey. I'm supposed to be on that call. Let him know I apologize for not joining. See you future,  

[01:26:50] Unknown:

Paul. You you productive beast. You.  

[01:26:55] Unknown:

It should be interesting, like, all the different tactics used to try and combat spam. Well, the cool thing is you don't need permission. Right? That's the main difference.  

[01:27:02] Unknown:

Like, you can go and build your sort of, like, relay ID or your feed ID or whatever, and maybe, like, people join, and it could be commingled.   The commingling of everything is  

[01:27:11] Unknown:

the the awesome part. I fucking love that you can't block anybody.   You can block people. No. Oh, yeah. That's a mute. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yes. Yeah. Like, I can always reply under any fucking person's   post. They can't stop me from doing that.   On Twitter, that's prolific.  

[01:27:29] Unknown:

That is nice. Yeah. Like because that's what, like, all the shit corners would do. They, like, turn off the flies or block out That guy, like, BitBoy Crypto or whatever? Yeah. Yeah. He blocked me before he even fucking,  

[01:27:39] Unknown:

like, started his run to, you know, shitcoin fame. Wow. He, like, preemptively blocked me because,   I guess, I have a tendency to, like, reply guys scammers.   That, is Barry replying to you anytime soon? Barry hasn't blocked me. How many days has it been? Do you think he's seen any of my tweets? How many days have you seen them?   Where's the money? I don't know. It's probably been, like, 90 days now or something, a 100 days. Look at that. I stopped counting at, like, 67   or something. I felt like the point got across.   It hit, like, mainstream.  

Everyone knew Barry owned the money.   That's pretty fucked up. You saw Craig lost that,  

[01:28:21] Unknown:

that UK lawsuit? Oh, nice. Yeah. I saw, like, all the different Square Up Organizations  

[01:28:27] Unknown:

and everyone on that, legal document. Oh, I didn't see that. I just saw I wonder if there's gonna be some, like, Wait. This is the vendor on stuff? Like, the developer stuff? Or Yeah. Where it was I I think it was against, like Or is it different? Stuff. Like, it was, like, Copa was in there. Oh, but that's different than the liability thing that's happening now. Right? Why people sue him for a liable? The opposite. Go the opposite direction. You know? Start like, oh, you're talking about this this dabs, and you're causing me this amount of I think Copa sued him for something. I don't remember what it is. For perjury? Like, he's Oh, I really thought even start there. He's passed. Why is he not dead?  

[01:29:04] Unknown:

The healthy man. Social consensus. That's how we take care of that problem. Right?  

[01:29:09] Unknown:

It is It's embedded now, like, perjury. They they say you can't lie in a court, but Yeah. It did. But,   Literally, you can. Alcon Alcon say something Yeah. It's  

[01:29:19] Unknown:

yeah. I I don't know the statistics on how many people, like, go to the pokey for perjury in court.  

[01:29:25] Unknown:

I mean, there was nothing more. I I was lucky enough to go see that in in Norway, and   there   it was just 4 like, 4 hours of perjury. Like, it like, it wasn't the, you know, slip up.   It was making shit off on the spot.   The counter lawyer would be like, well, you just said you wrote this document. It was literally submitted by evidence by you saying this person wrote it. Like, just a reminder, you're you're under oath here. And then, you know, 4 more hours of that. It's like I'm impressed. That that's talent. Like, get a little just sit down and lie with the straight face for a 4 hour straight. How come he isn't playing poker? At one point, he, like, chuckled and was like, oh, I was so I was 3 3 bottles of wine deep, and, I had just gotten a terrible call from, like, the bankruptcy lawyers in Australia.   And the and the opposing lawyer was just like, you know, that wasn't you. You actually you know, this is someone else who wrote this.  

Yeah. Perjury doesn't matter, apparently. You can purge her.   Heard it here first.  

[01:30:21] Unknown:

Good to know.   But particularly what's happening with a lot of Bitcoin core devs is   is  

[01:30:29] Unknown:

he's taken it to another level. Right? Like, he's he's essentially said that they're liable for any code they write or contribute to. Despite the warranty cost. I mean, this guy must be spook funny at this point. He's not even Calvin Air anymore. Like, because he's not gonna win any money.  

[01:30:44] Unknown:

Right. The saw the software license  

[01:30:47] Unknown:

specifically says that there's no warranty or liability on it, but this UK court has basically case. Yeah. It was the software license. They said there was no direct evidence of, like   like, him creating it or something. I forget what they the one, like or it was work. It was like there was no work that was ever So is this, like like, UK citizens, or we should just encourage developers not to even set foot in UK now? Well, Vanderland isn't a UK citizen. He's none of them are. He's in the UK. Have, like, they have, like, deals. Right? Legal deals The European European Union  

[01:31:18] Unknown:

negotiation. Yeah. But  

[01:31:20] Unknown:

UK is not even in the European Union. No. But they still have, like, I mean, like, you know, like, you ask them to, like, go to some places for some things and No. Yeah. I'm aware.  

[01:31:30] Unknown:

But that's pretty fucked up. Like, if that if that gets held up I mean, I don't know what Ben's saying. Ben, I I think it's the opposite. Right? Like, the appeal was a a loss. Right? Yeah. It was a loss for Craig. Yeah. But that got that That got appealed. Right? Appealed, and now it's out on again. Oh, I'm sure he appealed it. Yeah. He But it so they're gonna get go to court for that.  

[01:31:50] Unknown:

Yeah. And the the problem some alerts saying he lost, like, the case. The judge will something else. There's been there's too many fucking trials with me. Yeah. He's, like, a 1000000 trials. And too many trials in many jurisdictions,  

[01:32:01] Unknown:

too many individuals.  

[01:32:03] Unknown:

I saw this one coming by. And the problem is, like, these judges are, like, this is an interesting argument. Let's have a court case to decide. This is, like, no. It's very obvious he's just lying, but, you know, we have boomers in courts and stuff, so they can't. But this is the thing that, like, a lot of Bitcoiners don't get. I talked to so, like, I had this panel about estate concerns, like, in litigation and stuff. Like,   courts don't care if, like, shot 256 is correct. You know what I mean? Like, it's like you may have possession of something, but you might not have title of something. Right?   And, like, it's like that is not necessarily compatible with the law. Right? I mean, like, somebody else, it might leave your stuff to somebody and then the court decide that, no, the other person gets it. Right? Like, it's it's also pretty wishy washy. It's also dependent on, like, a lot of times, like, a 75 year old Yeah. Judge, like, understanding   tech that came out within, like, like But the other person is Christ, so it must be true. Mhmm.  



[01:32:57] Unknown:

Like, can you imagine trying to I I mean, Carmen might be able to answer this. Like, can you imagine trying to explain, like   like, cryptographic   ownership to my mom? Like, that like, she could she could be a judge or something. Like, that's the a lot of these judges aren't very technical.   We get lucky when there are ones. Like, the the Norway case, I think she was the judge is pretty based, could, like, follow the tech, but   there's a lot of people I know that could not follow the tech at all.  

[01:33:23] Unknown:

So is it a wallet, or is it a signing device?  

[01:33:26] Unknown:

What's an ex pub?  

[01:33:31] Unknown:

This is pretty fucked up.  

[01:33:34] Unknown:

Yeah. Donate to OpenSats legal funds. Yeah. Legal defense fund, OpenSats dotorg.  

[01:33:40] Unknown:

I  

[01:33:43] Unknown:

mean, how old is that guy again, Craig Wright?   50, probably. Oh, Jesus. He's still got another, like, 40 years.  

[01:33:53] Unknown:

Let's see.  

[01:33:54] Unknown:

I hope not.  

[01:33:56] Unknown:

It really makes you, like, lose complete faith in any kind of legal system or anything like that. Did you had any? No. No. Not really. I mean, look at, like, you know, Ross and I didn't at all, really. You know, like, snow then. But, like, if, like, if that wasn't enough, you know and the list just goes. That dude, that that that the what's the name? The the tornado cash kid.   Yeah. It's just Alexi. Right? I mean, do you think he eventually stops getting bankrolled if he keeps losing, or is it just unlimited budget? Well, Craig is, I mean, Calvin has a shit ton of money. I mean, I know. But so No. But still, like, this doesn't smell right. I mean, like, there must be, like, some other things. Big backer. Right? Yeah. I mean, like, this guy's spending, like, 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars. It's like While holding BSV that's gone, like, to Yeah. I know. But, like, you know, I think he's not gonna be plus, like, 1,000,000,000 at this point. Here's the thing. Right? Like, he either has some other, like, some some chess going on here because, like, he knows that if he wins in a certain way, maybe he can go sue some big corpse,   right, for, like, civil damage or whatever.  

Or he's, you know, just doing his book's job by wasting everybody's time and scaring people from working on Bitcoin. Right? And it's totally blank checks. That's totally possible Calvin Air has captured you, like, ran the gambling site and, like, you know, lost That's why people tell me not to use, PIA too.  

[01:35:11] Unknown:

What's that? The private Internet access VPN. Rajivir was on the board.  

[01:35:15] Unknown:

Yeah.   PIA is definitely a honeypot. No one should use PIA.   VPNs are a very trusted relationship. If you have any concerns whatsoever, you should just stay as far fucking away from them as possible. VPN provider walked in the comments the other day. IVPN. Right, Victor? Yeah. He's awesome, though.   Yeah. He seems like it, but I asked him straight up if he was a spook. He said no. Well, there you go. Heard it here first. Can't lie.   Well, at least I asked him. You know, you could hey. Get yourself, like spook?   No.  



[01:35:49] Unknown:

Get yourself, like, a VPS and just run your own VPN. Like, you know, like No. No. But there's there's a benefit to a hosted VPN. Yeah. You have anonymity  

[01:35:57] Unknown:

set.   I mean It's true. No. I mean, it it depends what your goal is. It depend if you're if you're just protecting yourself from the local ISP, then, like, it makes sense that you wanna do that. But if you're trying to do, like, cross site fingerprinting and shit, then you wanna make sure you can hide in the crowd. And, like, don't use it for, like, absolutely, you know, mission critical sensitive shit.   Don't use it for Noster Chinese No. Before No. It's great for Noster, but not maybe.   Like, Noster is, like, a perfect example for it. Right? It's like you have a different IP address every time. What? We we go fetch the images  

[01:36:30] Unknown:

whenever they load. So, like, that's Yeah.  

[01:36:32] Unknown:

That's total IP leak right there. Yeah. I mean, that's why you wanna run a VPN. As soon as the client starts just just caching that, because they could use a caching CDN to do that. Right? Mhmm. Because they're already using Cloudflare. But there's definitely gonna be relays that monetize that information. Right? Yeah. Of course, it will be. I mean, Cloudflare   aside from just being the CIA front for reading all your information on the Internet,   I mean, it is the man in the middle. I mean, a 100%. It's completely free. I mean, it's it's free. Like, literally, you can you can have, like, the biggest traffic on earth that would cost somebody, like, 100,000   dollars a minute. Right? And this guy's, oh, we do it for free.  

Tony's the biggest cloud pay plan I know. I'm experimenting cloud for right now. It's great. I mean, it's it's truly is remote. Tony, are you a spook?  

[01:37:17] Unknown:

No.  

[01:37:19] Unknown:

That that wasn't very convincing.  

[01:37:23] Unknown:

I hope that was convincing. I don't know. They they both said no. That that checks out to the previous statement about the other VPN guy.  

[01:37:30] Unknown:

Victor. No way that they're not supposed. Right? So, like, you just assume that, and they can read all your your your non encrypted   stuff.  

[01:37:39] Unknown:

Their office is right above the commons.   But Cloudflare? Yeah. And they're on the 5th floor. Is that why Marty couldn't access his BTC plan?  

[01:37:48] Unknown:

What are you experimenting with on Cloudflare?  

[01:37:51] Unknown:

You're I'm trying to see if it's a good platform to to use at all. So right now, my new ghost blog,  

[01:37:57] Unknown:

is hiding behind Cloudflare. So experiment. I mean, you wouldn't be able to survive a lot of, like, high traffic stuff without, like no. No. Just like Yeah. You know, even like being a a master relay, like, you just can't survive without doing stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, it's a common self hosting trade off you see a lot. Is it a good alternative at this point?   No. Because, like, they're if you have infinite money as the spooks, they're gonna offer it for free. And then and then my theory is it goes it goes farther than that. They're also behind the   the dawson. So No. Yeah. Yeah. They're they literally They force you into CloudFront. Yes. They would toss you as a Bitcoin company way back in the day and then force you All the exchanges for a long time are using Cloud for most of them probably still are. Right? Everybody is. Yeah. The term, like, creating the poison. So That's right. Yeah.  

But thank you for being at least free. I mean I'm paid. I'm paid. I mean, you know, like, it's  

[01:38:48] Unknown:

yeah. Is is Norentin antivirus still free?  

[01:38:51] Unknown:

Free the product in that one. So  

[01:38:56] Unknown:

Well, it's like box. Is it box.net   or whatever? Like, one of these websites that you Dropbox. The hosting. Yeah. You know? Here. Put your information and encrypted in this thing, and we're only gonna charge you, like, $5 a month for you to have, like, a quadrillion gigabytes.   So, like, you you know, like so easy. Yeah. And, you know, like oh, and also infinite bandwidth.   Oh, man.   Yeah. I don't trust any of it. Well, Skype is the same. You know? Eventually, everybody gets compromised. Self custodial, self host,  

[01:39:32] Unknown:

self mine, get all your medals for your,   hosting materials, build your rack, like, just a Steve Jobs quote, Get on the beach, build your own chips, like, do it all.  

[01:39:43] Unknown:

Have a CDN in every country in the world. Yeah. Easy stuff. Easy stuff.  

[01:39:48] Unknown:

What was the Giacomo quote that was said yesterday? If you don't mind your own medals, you're not a Bitcoiner. That's right.  

[01:39:57] Unknown:

I guess none of us are Bitcoiners. Maybe you indicated. You might mine your own metals. Yeah. Definitely.  

[01:40:02] Unknown:

I mean, we do put more gold than we should on our boards just because it looks pretty.  

[01:40:07] Unknown:

I feel like I'm owning Peter Schiff by doing that. At least half the people here now have done it in Minecraft for a good significant portion of last month.  

[01:40:15] Unknown:

Yeah.   A virtual or is virtual mining? Does that count? No. That's like that's like masturbation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. It doesn't count. That's what I assume. You heard it, Salio.  

[01:40:27] Unknown:

Wow. That's right.  

[01:40:29] Unknown:

Probably in the chat right now. I know he's in the chat. Yeah.   That was a cool little integration we had, though. I I like I don't play Minecraft, but it's it's pretty badass. That's awesome.   When we were talking about Satlantis, our friend's Minecraft server, where I've never played Minecraft. You can mine neither, have I? Neither, but it's still really fucking cool. I don't understand it. I cannot understand either. It's like I'm too boomer for that. Like I say, why are you putting blocks on top of each other for no reason? Understand that. And then people have a problem with ordinals. It's not like reason now, though. They're like Yeah. I understand ordinals way more. So what David did with set limits is, like, a specific server. You can buy a 6. There's a global hash rate.   You literally can you earn Bitcoin. And then what we did is we, like, plugged in our a our gift card API. So so the people who don't wanna withdraw their wallet, they could just, like, cash out to a Visa card or Amazon card. Oh, that's clever. It's actually cool. It's a clever cash out mechanism. Yeah. And then and then he's actually getting, like,   kids and, like, people that actually play it, and then they cash out to But where does the Bitcoin come from? Yeah. We sponsored the first They feel always 10,000,000 sets. And then if you wanna buy a 6 in game, like, I think part of it goes into the 50% prize pool, but he's funding a little bit of it. But right now, it's TBC, and  

[01:41:40] Unknown:

we'll see how long that lasts. Well, what I really liked was I forget whose game it was. It was early on in the lightning gaming, but he had   advertisements That's in the game. Donner Laz, Bitcoin Bounty. Yeah. And you could pay. I don't do in game ad bidding. It's so good. And he's like, he's now at Blockstream,  

[01:41:57] Unknown:

and, Jonas obviously was working there too, like, because their brother is Khan and Jonas. They released this, and they hit it out of the park. It was so fucking sick. Like, whatever memes, whatever your so they'll dispatch logo. Yeah. I kept paying for dispatch and RHR.  

[01:42:11] Unknown:

I I put the Blockstream Lizard logo. I was messing around with that. You have an infinite prize   pool, and then the game actually has sustainable  

[01:42:18] Unknown:

Yeah. They can actually live. Right? Because then they can take a cut. Like, on their they already have billboards in the game. They already have, like, radio ads. Like, you should they literally They're, like, fake ads. Like, they're They're fake ads on the real one. Like, you could literally just put, like, real billboard ads in the game and sell, like, a lot like, good amount of money.  

[01:42:35] Unknown:

They have multiplayer now too. It it was sick. I remember do I remember buying some ads on on Yeah. Con Con's, he was a great entrepreneur. Where did that go? I'm surprised that, actually, that model didn't pick Well well, I think, like, it was the bear market and just, like, understanding business models and stuff and what actually scales and, like, how much it costs versus raising VC and well, and for play bring it back. He felt that,   you know, it wasn't, like, a long term thing you wanted to do. Now he's at Lightning Labs. He contributed to PureSwap.  

[01:43:03] Unknown:

So he's been, like, fairly successful. He needs one enterprise sales guy to go pitch, Epic Games or GTA or, like, you know, get it in one of those. Dude, Fortnite with Sats?  

[01:43:13] Unknown:

Well, what what what would be nice? Was supposed to be Well, so so that's the thing. Like, the satoshi's games people tried. They did the NFTs and Now which did they go to? They went on Solana.   It's very disappointing.   Now. No. They didn't go to satoshi games. I I heard so this is what I I I looked at, like, the the web page, and I I couldn't, like, it was more No. No. So it's Elixir. It's Elixir. Yeah. They rebranded. So they pivoted to  

[01:43:36] Unknown:

I think, like, my basic understanding of what Zebedee does with sets is, like, they pivoted to, like, the idea that instead of making the games, they just integrate  

[01:43:52] Unknown:

super hyped for and super proud of Zebedee.   Like, me and Ben, we were at this hackathon that Alisa put together in,   December 2021,   and we had this thing called Smash Bears where we could kinda gamble based on I remember that. Yeah. So Zebedee basically is doing that now with, like, actual triple a games, and that's like  

[01:44:13] Unknown:

huge deals. The play rather than making new games. Yeah. Like, there's already, you know,  

[01:44:18] Unknown:

100 of 1,000,000 of dollars going into game development. Not real DLC. It's just custodial betting? Yeah. I think they're doing custodial, but, like, that's how you get, like, the on ramp. Yeah. Exactly. Maybe down the road, they have, like, a DLC noncustodial flow. Dude. You make it noncustodial. No. No. But they have all the licenses and everything. Like, they I'm pretty sure their licenses are fucking hard. Yeah. Exactly.  

[01:44:39] Unknown:

They they it's like the whole MTL play. Right? I mean You have to go But that's one of the cool things to me about   just to bring it back to LDK is, like, this idea of, like, light mobile kind of first clients, and then because that's the problem. Right? It's like, okay, you don't want friction,   so you end up going with custodial lightning. Like, everything is custodial lightning because we don't have easy low friction,   at least, you know, semi,   semi self custody lightning. Right? Like, at least, like, move a little bit closer to that trade off balance to where we could at least tell regulators, like, oh, we can't just rug it by design.   Yeah. Yeah. Because then I need to get the licenses everywhere. Alright. Like, the regulation  

[01:45:18] Unknown:

is is gonna kick up, I think, on these custodians.  

[01:45:21] Unknown:

And then you have friction on that side, so it's like a battle of friction. And then it's the non KYC custodians. It's like, okay. How long are those gonna last? They never do, but, like, while the satoshi has lasted forever, like, I've been   Yeah. I'm so surprised. I've been doom posting about that for a long time.   I thought it'd last, like, a month, and it's, like, historically, the custodians get fucking whacked. Well, I mean, it's what happened to, like, the whole like, I remember we felt that way especially because of a tip and dot me. Right? Right. That's why he shut it down. Yeah. Also, like, that got pretty dirty towards the end because there was no, like, outbound liquidity. Like,   you couldn't, like, withdraw for shit. Oh, yeah. Drop it. That guy went like the jail. Yeah. And then everyone got on lightning, got rugged at the same time by the feds.  



[01:46:05] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:46:07] Unknown:

Drop it. Yeah. I have one of their shirts still. Yeah. I mean, they made a big marketing push right before he because he was running a Bitcoin, but that was because he was running a Bitcoin mixer. I wanna be clear here, like,   to me, the big revelation was BitMax, because BitMax   was no KYC. Yep. They did 1,000,000,000 of dollars of volume. They made, you know,  

[01:46:27] Unknown:

probably made over a $1,000,000,000. Literally blocked US IPs. Like, what more can you  

[01:46:33] Unknown:

But my point is   they all got, what, they all got $10,000,000   funds and, like, 6 months house house arrest. Right? I think it doesn't matter about the regulations.  

[01:46:43] Unknown:

Once you have, like, enough money, you do really well, you're gonna start having champagne problems. You're gonna have to pay the tax collector. Like Right. That's what happened to Voorhees. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They it's like Voorhees was complete and capped. Do what they meant. Yeah. He got too big, and then at that point, they something to take from him. Right? Yep. Exactly.  

[01:47:00] Unknown:

They will figure out a way of getting their cut.   Like, they're really, like, you know, it's, like, it's exactly like the mafia. Right? Yeah. These guys will figure out a way. You see local Bitcoin shutting down? Yeah. End of an era. Yeah. I mean, but they've had KYC for a while now. Yeah. They, like, shut down really in, like, 2018 when they added Added the KYC. Yeah.  

[01:47:21] Unknown:

And if I was, I'm able to shut down then. That's why they shut down. Right? It's because their volume's probably and, also, like, when   these exchanges always have the issue where, like, you make the first transaction with them. It's like Airbnb. It happens with Airbnb. You make the first transaction with them, and then after that, you always go directly to the person so you don't have to pay them a fucking cut. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, you have your guy. You have your Bitcoin guy. Right?   You have an Airbnb. You're like, why am I paying Airbnb 30% when we can meet in the middle? Mhmm.  

[01:47:47] Unknown:

So, actually, it's like with credit cards, it's like, oh, I gotta Zelle you or figure out Right. Hard thing with Bitcoin. It's, like, literally native to it, so there's really no reason. You can just do a tap now. What if you just give us that for the fiat side. And, for LocalBitcoins, you still have the fiat side. Right? But you had to figure that out anyways. Yeah. They're doing there's, like, LocalBitcoins doesn't have a bank account you send through. Right. So you still have to figure that out. Right. That's why all these companies try and control the payment flow. Right? Like, Uber, like, Uber's big thing was, like, they the drivers don't accept payment. They take the payment, and then they cut out the drivers so that they're in the point of leverage.   So Airbnb. But it makes it, like, a little easier on the driver side too because, like, you know, they don't wanna have to, like, integrate credit cards themselves and deal with fraud and all that. It's, like, it's a hard problem.  



[01:48:32] Unknown:

And you can't just call, you know, your Uber driver and say come pick me up. Like, you know, they're probably gonna be busy.  

[01:48:37] Unknown:

You know, but this is the thing too. Like, a a lot of, like, Uber drivers and Airbnb, Uber drivers, like, they don't wanna do it. They like the app. They like the non bullshit. Like, they don't have to deal with anybody. They just press the button.  

[01:48:49] Unknown:

You know? Well, I mean, Uber is just subsidizing everything right now. Right? Like, they just like, as they scale, they just lose more and more money.  

[01:48:57] Unknown:

It became like a   TAM game amongst, like if you were following back in the day with Didi Chu Xing and all the m and a that went down, like, literally, VCs were just throwing money, and it was who can subsidize it   and give more, like, credits and just, like, acquire the most markets and Fiat maxi bullshit. Exactly. Whoever can get all of the market, and then, market, and then, I guess, once, like, the others drown out because they run out of capital, then they'll just rake up the prices, and they might be more expensive than taxis again.  

[01:49:25] Unknown:

I remember reading, like it was like a I love yellow taxis now when I'm visiting New York.   The nostalgia's great. They're so simple, easy to use. You can you can get them so easily now because everyone's   Ubering. They're they're still an asshole to you. You can pay in cash.  

[01:49:40] Unknown:

Instant gratification, I was, like, flagging that taxi. This is great. Oh my god.  

[01:49:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, the cool thing Here's the fucking mic. Oh, sorry. Where  

[01:49:49] Unknown:

I live,   the the bigger cab company there, you if you have their app, you can flag a taxi.   Right? And then you just scan   your little tablet there and boom, you're connected. And then at the end of the ride, you can just walk out as it does proper payments.   So you have both hands. Yeah, man. Like, the flagging is it's like   because, you know, it's what I call Uber minutes.   Right? Like, they'll say, oh, we're 1 minute away, and it's really 10. Right? Like, it's infuriating. They park 2 blocks away. He's gotta walk over. Like That's right. Yeah. But, you know, with tax flag taxi flagging, it's just, like, bam. You got it.  

[01:50:26] Unknown:

Never done that in my life.   You've never use the mic, bro. I've never yeah. I've never flagged a taxi in my life. Wow.  

[01:50:33] Unknown:

Matt, we're tired as mics are heavy.  

[01:50:37] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean hours.   Yeah. I think we should we should wrap because there's a lot of other things going on right now. But We're totally recording something else. But this is   yeah. We have another podcast. Yeah.   This has been a great conversation.   Let let's end with some final thoughts. MBK, final thoughts.  

[01:50:55] Unknown:

Final thoughts.   Go to our store and reserve cold card, q  

[01:51:01] Unknown:

one. Cheers to that. Thanks, MBK. Vivek, final thoughts.  

[01:51:06] Unknown:

Do your best. Keep learning. Don't be scared of things you don't understand, like inscriptions.   I'm a fan of full blocks. Thank you. Thanks, Vivek. Tony, final thoughts.  

[01:51:17] Unknown:

5 is our high here at Bickland Park like always.   Looking forward to coming back.   I got I do have a place to send people now, tonygiorgiodot   com. I paid a $1,000 for that domain. Wow. I I I own, pickle tony.com. Oh my god.   Alright. Soon, pickle tony.com.  

[01:51:36] Unknown:

Other than that,  

[01:51:37] Unknown:

yeah, vibes are high here. Check out Austin next week as well. It should be fun. Cheers. Thanks, Tony. Carmen, final thoughts. Yeah. He should come to the Bitcoin cap of the world next week in Austin,  

[01:51:47] Unknown:

and, fuck Craig Wright.   Cheers to that.   Price, final thoughts.   You had the whole table for big event.  

[01:51:58] Unknown:

Be nice to each other. World's falling apart. People are gonna need you soon. Stay humble, sex hats.  

[01:52:05] Unknown:

This is correct.   Steals my fucking direct. Well, I'm I'm glad you feel it. I'm glad you feel the love. Love you all. Thank you guys for joining. Thank you guys for coming to Nashville. It's been a really fucking great week so far. That's what your hosting is. And, we're not done yet, so it'll be   let's just keep fucking going.   To the freaks, reminder, I got Steve Lee coming tomorrow morning,   rabbit hole recap in the afternoon,   and then on Sunday before the Super Bowl, Casey, about ordinals and inscriptions.   And maybe, who knows, maybe there'll be another 2 dispatches in between those as well. Go birds. Go birds. Fuck the eagles. Go birds. Love you all. Stay on Bust Access.