Citadel Dispatch

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support dispatch: https://geyser.fund/project/citadel

EPISODE: 87
BLOCK: 775467
PRICE: 4306 sats per dollar
TOPICS: building bitcoin wallets, education, open source dev, platforms, grassroots community spaces
GUESTS: @notmandatory, @danielabrozzoni, @afilini, @thunderB__

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[00:00:37] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the show focused on actionable discussion about Bitcoin and Freedom Tech.   I know y'all have been waiting a long time for a new dispatch. It's been a minute. I've been traveling all over the place.   I like you guys to get a little bit used to me hitting you with, like, 5 dispatches in a week and then going on, like, a 2 week break and then doing it again.   You can you can listen at your leisure rather than me choosing when to post. I don't like,   sitting on content,   just like putting it out there.  

And this week is no different. We have   an amazing group of developers   and other Bitcoiners,   at Bitcoin Park in Nashville. So I have a whirlwind week planned for you all.   We're starting off with this episode, but then also tomorrow, I will be talking to the LDK team.   I have Steve Lee from Spiral,   scheduled on Friday as well.   So that's at least   3 dispatch. Other than I have Casey with ordinals and descriptions for the weekend. That's either gonna be Saturday or Sunday.   And there might be a few more sprinkled in there. If I can just drag people into the studio, I'm going to do it.   So the easiest way to keep track of when I am going live with a new dispatch   is either on Twitter or matrix chats,   or if you subscribe on YouTube or Twitch, you will get notified,   when we go live. That makes it very easy.  

Citadel Dispatch, you know the deal freaks. It is completely audience funded. We have no ads, no sponsors.   You guys are are who fund the show. You guys are who make it special. You guys are who join our live chat and participate.   I think we're the only show in Bitcoin. I know we're the only show in Bitcoin with an interactive live chat, so I'd like to thank you're all the host   alongside me. The easiest way to support dispatch   is through podcasting 2 point o apps, like Fountain and Breezewallet,   Echo ln.   Simply download the app,   search still dispatch, press that subscribe button just like a regular podcast app, but then you can also choose how many sats per minute you think the show is worth.  

Those sats flow directly to my note. It's really empowering and cool to see   you all support the show that way. You can also support it, via my BTC page server.   I guess now I have a link to geyser dot fund, but it's basically a BTC pay front end.   All those links are at siladisbet.com.   Every link you need is at siladisbet.com.   I'm gonna keep it kinda short because   I think you guys know the deal. But before we get started,   and, also, I know it's a bear market. I know it's a recession. If you don't have stats to spare, sharing sharing dispatch with your friends and family,   subscribing on your favorite platform, literally on every platform, any podcasting app,   YouTube, Twitch,   Bitcoin TV,   Rumble,   Twitter,   sharing it, subscribing it, leaving reviews, it all it all helps, and it's all appreciated.  

So thank you, Freaks, for that. But before we get started, I'm going to read   the top 4 boostograms   from   our last dispatch.   Boostograms are another thing in podcasting 2 point o   where   you pick how many sats,   you think it's worth, and you attach a message to it.   It's basic you can think you can think of it like a global comment section.   It's pretty cool because anyone can see them.   We have at Patar,   contributed 500,000   sats.   Wow. I didn't even see that until now. That that might be our largest single con contribution, so thank you, Patar.   He goes, I want to thank you, Matt, for the tough but important interview you did with Peter. I like Peter, and everyone deserves a second chance, but we need to take responsibility for our actions. We have at Rob one ham who was a guest on this episode that says mini script fixes this. Might be the first time a guest has contributed   stats to the show of the same episode he was on. We have at Eric 99, ride or die freak,   constant support of the show saying, stay humble, stack sats. Thank you, Eric. Great advice.  

And then we have user 640-4948-553-9384.   We decided not to create a username.   He sent 11,000 sets and said, courtesy of random Noster Anans.   Thank you to all the freaks who support the show. I really do appreciate it.   It's special it's special what we're building here at dispatch. Anyway,   that's enough of me. We have a great show lined up. The topic of the day is Bitcoin DevKit.   I have some great contributors here,   to the Bitcoin DevKit project.  

[00:05:19] Unknown:

We have, Steve Myers here. Steve, how's it going? Great. Great. Excited to be here. First, a long time listener, first time speaker.  

[00:05:27] Unknown:

Awesome. Well Excited to pleasure to have you. Steve is actually,   the only one here that is also Nashville based, and he runs our local bit devs. We're gonna have bit devs tonight. So if you're in the Nashville area within, like, a 5 hour drive Yep. Consider 5:30? Come on by the park? Yeah. Get in the car right now. Coffee,   whatever you need. Yeah. Get in the car right now. You can listen on the road Yes. And then come join,   come join bid devs. We have Daniella in the house. How's it going, Daniella? Good. Thank you for having   me. Pleasure's all mine.  

We have   ThunderBiscuit.   How's it going, ThunderBiscuit?  

[00:06:02] Unknown:

Doing well. Thank you.  

[00:06:04] Unknown:

Great great,   great NIM choice.  

[00:06:07] Unknown:

Cheers.  

[00:06:07] Unknown:

How'd you how'd you come up with ThunderBiscuit?  

[00:06:12] Unknown:

Thunder for us was   an old word with my brothers, so it was a word I really liked. And so I knew I needed thunder in there, but it's,   too small of a handle, so you can't use it anywhere like, you know, GitHub or Twitter or anything. So I needed some sort of extra qualifier.  

[00:06:29] Unknown:

Oh, that's interesting. Here. So And were you just eating a biscuit at the time and you just threw it on there?  

[00:06:34] Unknown:

Biscuits. Biscuits. Biscuit eater. And now I went that's that's what I recommend to people. If you're looking for a name, grab 2 words you like, one after the other. Just some sort of yeah. I love it. And we have Alikos. How's it going, Alikos? Great. Yeah. Really excited to be finally at a technical podcast because I'm always at, you know, nontechnical  

[00:06:52] Unknown:

interviews. I always have to,   keep it simple. I'm happy to be here. I can go We'll go deep here. Yeah. We'll go deep. Yeah. I'm excited. That's my thing. I continue the deep on this on this single dispatch.  

[00:07:05] Unknown:

So Bitcoin DevKit. Bitcoin DevKit,   a   simple explanation that I like when I talk about Bitcoin DevKit is is this idea of essentially a building block for other wallets.   Try and get, like, all the hard parts out of the way so people can just focus on   building interesting experiences without all the hard, difficult security  

[00:07:26] Unknown:

concerns. Yep. I mean, it's a library, so it's used by other software to make their software.   It's built on other libraries. So it's built on Rust Bitcoin and Rust Mini Script,   you know, to to well respected projects. But those two projects don't give everybody what they need.   This project started with Alakos. He can maybe talk a little about more original inspiration for it. But I used to. Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, historically, the the project started when I was at Blockstream. So I was working,  

[00:07:54] Unknown:

on the green apps, the green team. Green wallet. Green wallet. Yeah. And and the thing was how the the question was how would we,   create green   today? Like, GreenNet is a pretty old project, so there's a lot of legacy stuff in there, obviously. And I think once we we had to recreate it today, what would we use. So we started thinking about descriptors and,   generalized scripts because, you know, green is just a 2 of 2. What if you want to have a 2 of 3 with this? And it's also 2 of 3, but that's kind of a   smaller thing. Anyway, yeah, the this version was we need something that's super generalized that if you wanna make a wall that's such a screen or something,   a bit more complex than just a single sig, you take this library and and does everything for you. So that was kinda the original inspiration.  



[00:08:41] Unknown:

Yep. I guess that was it. And and I found the project because I was working on a a an Android   app   sort of quietly on my own evenings and weekends. And I was using the Bitcoin j library, and it wasn't doing what I wanted.   And I learned about Rust and the Rust Bitcoin stuff. And I thought, oh, you know, we need a we need an Android version of this. We need something that's easier to use for that kind of stuff. And   I started doing it on my own, and then I ran into magical Bitcoin, which was originally the name for BDK.   And I'm like, oh, I remember that. This is way better. This is, like, this is awesome stuff. So we I joined out that I I've primarily been focusing on the mobile bindings, but also just generally,   you know,   becoming a Rust developer. That's kinda one of the amazing things about open sources. Anybody can join if you have anything to contribute,   and then you just end up learning a ton. So I I went from from 0 to a little better than 0,   you know, with mentoring from Alakos and the other more experienced Rust developers,   and,   you know, was able to get, like, way more than I ever thought. Like, I I all the features that were in BDK, some of them I like, mini script for instance, which is part of the the descriptor stuff.  

I had no idea, like, all the things you could do with it until, know, we started playing with the library and, just how easy it would be. Like, this you know, like, I I would have been happy with the 2 of 3 and, you know, and maybe, you know, seed words and stuff like that. But Right. BK does way more than that. Yeah. Actually, just to say you also been doing all the stuff that I don't want to do. Yes. So you you deserve a lot of credit for that because I'm a technical guy. My focus is, like, I figure, well, you know, if I can't do all the technical stuff that Allocos can do, I can lose to all the nontechnical stuff. You know? Like, I can do technical stuff. I'm I'm Super important as well. Like, community and You know, try to pick up and, yeah, talk to people. Like, I can be I like to think of myself as level 1 support. You know? Like, I I'll I'll I'll field as much as I can. And then if I get it wrong, I'll get level 2 or 3 support online to get it get the real hard stuff done. But, fortunately, most of our questions are level 1 support. So What so let's let's I mean, before we continue, let's talk about roles. Like, what is how how are the roles laid out here in this project?   It's somewhat fluid, but I think, you know, Alacos is the original architect Right. And built most of the original software.  

There was another, there was other folks on the team early on too, some more of the Italian,  

[00:10:56] Unknown:

crew. Yeah. So, yeah, we we kind of rotated a little bit. So so we are the only 2, I think, that stuck   together for a long time. Yeah. There were some some people joined for a little bit and then left. Some people got a grant for a year and and then left, went back to their own the the previous job.  

[00:11:13] Unknown:

But, yeah, we we don't even don't really have, like, well defined roles. It's kind of a Yeah. Which is pretty common in open source projects. Right? These. Yeah. We got a company and take turns on releasing. Like, that was sort of one of the things we were doing was taking a turn on releasing. And then everybody on the team's been sort of doing technical support. I know Laurent's been really focused on mobile bindings, Amazon I mean,   Android sorry. Amazon Android   stuff. That's that's, I think, your original entry. Right? Did you just leak Amazon integration? Yeah. Right. Yeah.  

[00:11:43] Unknown:

Break it. No.  

[00:11:45] Unknown:

Android stuff. Yeah.   Maybe tell it yeah. So like Android and then When Yello joined us Was that like HCPP? This the most recent was are you joined recently? Or it's She's been involved, like, for full time recently.  

[00:11:58] Unknown:

Exactly. Because at first,   I contributed with the coin selection.  

[00:12:04] Unknown:

So basically, that was a minor thing, a little bit Yeah. Like, coin tech. Yeah. But, you know, it's coin selection.  

[00:12:10] Unknown:

And that was, like, my first Rust project I did, basically, and and it's been an interesting experience because,   I've read the Branch and Bound con selection,   copied it from Bitcoin Core. Right. And if you know Rust,   you know it's not, like, the easiest programming language, and the BNB coin selection is all about recursion and things like that. So I remember it being   interesting but really hard.   So, yeah, I contributed,   with the coin selection, but then because in that period, I didn't really have a job, so I was just like, I have a lot of free time. Right?   But then I find myself a job, and so I just   stopped contributing for a while. And then I,   joined again full time with a grant.  

At this point, it was 6 months. Yeah.   6 months ago.   And, yeah, I've been working mainly on the Rust,   main like like, the Rust library.  

[00:13:03] Unknown:

So, yeah, the Rust side of things. Missing bugs, adding features Yes. Yes. Answering questions, making examples. That's another big thing, especially the project like this that's been around a few years. A lot of it is just creating examples that people can follow that wanna build a new wallet to help them get started.   That's, you know and documentation.   The the code is well documented. You know, there's a lot of inline code, but sometimes people just need more of a cookbook recipe.   Yeah. Yeah.   Actually,   ThunderBiscuit   has a   has done a lot on the Android mobile side for that too, with going even beyond examples, but with, like, full wallets in Android.  

Wanna talk a little about how you got into that? Yeah. That's right. So my expertise  

[00:13:48] Unknown:

is mostly Android and   JVM and Kotlin and Java. And so   I think   I got into BDK for from a different perspective as, you know, from the different, Rust engineers. I I was coming I wanted to build mobile wallets and,   BDK. And I knew they wanted to look at language bindings and how we were gonna maybe bring that to mobile. And so that's how we ended up, and now with Steve, I maintain   our language bindings for Android and Swift as well as Python so   devs can use, can use it. And that's that's really one of the big parts of, I think, the Bitcoin dev kit, like, the power of it is   you're coming from Rust, and if you're familiar with these things,   Rust has   the pedigree where if you know like, you know, it's kind of like   the horse with all of the fathers and the grandfathers, you know, like the high Right. The pure breed   of Bitcoin,   and of Mini Script is Rust. This is where it's happening.  

And so if you're an Android developer or a Swift developer, you don't have access to that yet. There's no, like, mini script on on, you know, on iOS. So you're gonna need to either use a library that is less well tested or less well known and whatnot.   Or   if you can Write it yourself. Or write it yourself and, like, yeah. Are you gonna trust yourself? Are your users gonna trust me? Right. Whereas, if you say, well, we're gonna pull from the, you know, the Rust ecosystem, which is the most reviewed, well tested. I mean, it's it's unbelievably powerful. This is what you wanna do. This is what we're bringing basically to Android and to iOS. So they're they're writing in their native language, but they're able to interact with That's right. It's completely transparent. So   the and we have like, I have, for example, a wallet in production myself as a side project, but I I also have a sample app   and, that you can just build. You know, press play, and it builds the app, and you get Cool. Anything you want. And that includes things   That includes things you would never get. You're it would it would take you years, you know, like like Taproot stuff. Right. Like, what? Are you getting Taproot? I know. Yeah. You do. Just because because it's coming from the Rust, so it's unbelievably powerful   to create these bindings and form from developers who are coming from these languages, it's transparent to them. There's no sense that you're using Rust at all. So the language, the It's very intuitive. Into absolutely. Yeah. Which is coming in. I just wanna mention super quickly because you've listed the,  

[00:16:06] Unknown:

bindings we have. We also have React Native. Right? But it's kind of a separate project, so there's another person working on Xavier. Yeah. He's also got a grant from Spiral who's doing React Native.   So, yeah, it's like Swift,  

[00:16:19] Unknown:

JVM And people love React Native because it's easy to do cross platform and Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. And and Flutter now. So Flutter as well. Yeah. I I actually, Flutter is becoming originally React Native. Everybody was excited about because it was cross platform, but now there's Flutter, and it's sort of it's now taking the spotlight. Everyone's like, oh, well, if you got Flutter, I'm gonna do Flutter. It's because it's way more performant. Right? Is that basically the It's just a little better language. If you're doing React Native, it's sort of JavaScript, which is not it's not quite as  

[00:16:45] Unknown:

great a language to write in unless you love it. Am I am I correct that the the trade off with React Native is that it's it's it's very easy to do  

[00:16:53] Unknown:

cross platform between Android and iOS, but you just never get, like, the the same kind of performance as you would if it was native to either. I don't think it's performance per se. I think that's that's a big part. Like, it's not really performant. And I think it's a good mental model. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that happens is that you write something in React Native, it isn't as performant. So what you end up doing is writing in the native languages itself. So you can write React Native. It gives you, like, a basic thing. Right. And if you want, you can dig in and write Kotlin or write Swift inside to get that extra performance. And so what ends up happening is that a lot of, like, professional production applications are written React Native   actually hire Kotlin and Swift devs themselves to actually write the app. Format they write. That's right. That's interesting.  

So the you write React Native for your, yeah, your testing. But if you want a real  

[00:17:43] Unknown:

you end up with devs that do I think also for the UI. Like, I think, maybe I don't know. I'm not super familiar with mobile libraries, but I think React native apps, they kinda tend to feel more cheap in a way. Like, they're not native. So if you build something with the native Kotlin,   APIs or the native sweep UI,   whatever, I think it like, the app feels a lot better if it's more,  

[00:18:05] Unknown:

native, more more preview Very nice. Yeah. Like the the big Works for companies. Because it's really using all the best fee it's like doing it in the best way for each platform. Yeah. It's it's weird. Right? Because, like  

[00:18:16] Unknown:

so, I mean, I'm curious what you guys think. I mean, my mental model is that the overwhelming majority of Bitcoiners will only interact with Bitcoin   on mobile. Yeah.   That hasn't been really the case up until now. But if you think about, like, the next 1,000,000,000 people that that enter Bitcoin, they might never use it on a desktop or laptop computer. They're gonna probably use it on mobile. Yeah. Yeah.   But then   in America, most of the big corners I talk to, I just feel like there's a very   there's a there's a huge iOS market share. But then if you talk about, like, the global south, you talk about, like, Africa or Latin America,   It's, like, 90% Android, and it's, like, lower end older Android phones too. Yeah. There are geographical  

[00:18:59] Unknown:

differences, like, pretty big geographical differences where, like, for me as a European,   person, I will not say iOS is that important because you look around and I think maybe nowadays not so much, but I think you you tend to see a lot of Android devices. Really? Here in the US, it's Yeah. All Ios. Everyone has iPhones here. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of Android here too, but yeah. Definite I mean, I say this as an Android person for a lot of people. I mean yeah. More, like, technical people use Android, I guess. That's it. So, like, average users say side load stuff. Yeah. That that's for sure. I mean, I've still been waiting for the app stores to just  

[00:19:31] Unknown:

cut all Bitcoin wallets. Oh, yeah. It's happened to be on iOS. Right? Yeah. Apple used to not allow it back in the day. That's that's why I developed on Android. That's why you started. Right? Apple and I have Yeah. Fundamental differences  

[00:19:44] Unknown:

in philosophy. I just can't   and, you know, f droid, the idea that you can,   I can literally give you a file on your USB key, and you can load it up on your phone? It's an app. It works on Android.  

[00:19:56] Unknown:

Apple has to go through the gateway. They have to And you have to set up an account. You have to, like, maybe I I don't even know. I don't an iPhone, but I think you might have to put a credit card in even for free apps or something like that. Or You have to have to set up your account. Like, you have to register your yourself. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what happened with the immunity guys. I think I might might have them on dispatch too, just to add another dispatch to your plate, freaks.   They decided to do a progressive web app because Tony,   one of the maintainers from Unity, he got denied on the App Store.  

He, like, there's a bunch of flags. They said you're not allowed.   And he's like, okay. We'll just skip the app store. But where I was going with that is, you know, you came from Greenwall at Alakos.   And like back so my history in Bitcoin, I've been working in Bitcoin for almost 9 years now, which is fucking insane, has mostly been on the education side.   And   there's something to be said about   having a cross platform app, because   on the education side, it's such a hurdle if   I recommend an app and it's not available on your platform.   Yep. You know? Like, Green Wallet, like, for the longest time, before Blue Wallet existed, before any of these wallets existed, Green Wallet was, like, the only one that I could just blindly say, download Green Wallet, and you you got it on your phone. Yeah.  



[00:21:13] Unknown:

I think, yeah, probably was   the first, like, real cross cross platform. You have mobile. You you had desktop. Now Right. The desktop changed later. But yeah. Yeah. There was the   I remember it was   I know now they've redone it in QT, so now they have a new desktop app, but even before there was something.   Now just what? Like, blue wallet maybe? I I don't  

[00:21:34] Unknown:

I I can't think of that many I think BlueWallet has a like, an OSX app, I think, but they don't have,  

[00:21:40] Unknown:

any like, they don't have Linux or Windows? Yeah. Like, there are not that many wallets that are you can use them everywhere. Like, like Right. Mhmm.   From from a whole range of devices. So, yeah, they they were very, I don't know, ahead of their time, I guess, with with green. But there are trade offs, so I don't know. Like, green, you know, there's a multi sig thing, so Very complicated.   Yeah. So now they have the single sig option, which is cool. At the time, I think,   like, I personally didn't want to use green, because I didn't want I I just wanted a simple, like, single Yeah. And they would ask you, like, during the onboarding, they'd ask for your phone number and your Yeah. Yeah. It was a different time. Twofa. Yeah. So it's cool you have extra safety from the 2FA perspective, but sometimes I think for, like, advanced users, you just want   one thing and that maybe cannot provide it for you. But for other users, yeah, that that's a great option, I think.  



[00:22:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I think that's a good point. Right?   Like, one of my,   thesis is   or thesis   for somebody who does so many podcasts, you think I'd speak better,   is that   there's just gonna be many different types of Bitcoin users. Right? So it's not really a one size fits all, and that's why projects like BDK are so important. Right? Because   if you can enable developers   to create,   you know, more specialized   Bitcoin wallets that are focused on different   types of Bitcoiners, then that's a massive win as long as we have more options and people can can kind of choose what they want. Right? Yeah. Yep. I think people different people need different trade offs. So there are people maybe  

[00:23:10] Unknown:

they want a self custody,   the their own keys, but then they're like, oh, maybe I'll lose them. So,   with Miniscript and then BDK, you can easily throw in, like, a an recovery key that only activates after a year or something like that. So you have your own key. You can normally only you can spend normally, but, you know, worst case, there's that extra recovery key, which, I don't know, you can give to a friend or you can give to a some company that does recovery services for you. So, yeah, I I think that's, like, really   big   important piece to to get to this future where where we have   more advanced wallets, basically. Not not just single signal, just multi signal. Because otherwise, most people end up using,   custodial services, which I mean, I I think it makes sense. Like, if you if you don't trust yourself, if you're not a technical person and you're afraid you're gonna use your keys, it makes sense for you to go to a custodial service. But I think we can do better. We can we can have still,   like, self self custody with,   recovery backup mechanism, more advanced.  



[00:24:06] Unknown:

Do you do you think self custody is still too difficult?  

[00:24:10] Unknown:

I don't think it's difficult. Like, it clearly, it's it's not hard to write down a piece of paper.   Write down words on a piece of paper.   But I think, like   and that that I think I think most people don't trust themselves with the   like, you have to keep this thing safe and It requires personal responsibility. Yeah. And I at the core. Agree with them. Like, I I don't think most people are ready for that. Like, we live in a world where you you forget your email password, then you just click a button, and they send it back to you. Like, you can recover   from I think we we kind of live in this world where we have the idea that worst case,   I can talk to somebody and,   I don't know. I lose my credit card. I can call the bank, and I get a new one. We live in a world with no personal responsibility. It's been groomed out of us, essentially. I think And Bitcoin's radical personal responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. And this probably applies to many other aspects of not only   not only keeping your money safe, also to other, like, aspects of life in general.  



[00:25:06] Unknown:

But I I mean, look at, like, something like photo storage or something even. So Something that's way less,   photo storage. Like, it's way less critical. Yeah. Right? But, like, people don't even trust themselves to, like, locally People back up. Phones on the cloud. Right. Because they want the automatic backup. You know? They're they're willing to trust a large company to do it. Yep. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think it's I definitely think people should learn to to take responsibility for themselves, but I also think people are not ready right now. So, yeah, I agree that  

[00:25:35] Unknown:

for for   for the average users, maybe self custody can be a bit too much. So how do we make how what what's the biggest  

[00:25:43] Unknown:

what's the biggest issue there?  

[00:25:45] Unknown:

I was gonna say self custody. The other thing too in my mind is that self custody has been pictured or,   you know, just it's it seems to be, like, 0 or a 1, black or white. What I think. Yeah. We miss sort of that this big gray scale, but Mhmm. And you've had the guys talking about mini script a few weeks back. This I think this is what we're going for   in the next few years. We need to, like, gray all of that. Like, you need to have   pieces where, like, you start a little bit a little bit more. And when you think of, like   I think custody is at the core of what Bitcoin like, keys and trusting yourself and whatnot. So when I see stuff like the upvault proposal by Right. James O'Byrne, like Love, James.  

This is   this is where I think it's important. Like, it's custody is at the core, and we need to create simplicity. But right now, if you if you talk to your mother about Bitcoin, right, it's like 0 or 1. She'll lose it all if she misses. Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, she's never gonna do that.  

[00:26:41] Unknown:

But if you had this ability for, like Collaborative custody kind of situations where, like, I could I could hold a backup key for her or something. Yeah. But I can't just rug her. Like, she she would need to, like, a time lock key and some other relative or even some paid service, you know. Right. It could be a paid service that holds that key as a backup. I mean, the the nice thing about a library like BDK or any any library built with mini script is   you're using the exact same library with just a different script, with just a different mini script or descriptor. Right. All the other features of library, you know, how you sync the blockchain, how you store the data, how you create transactions, sign transactions   that, you know, you could you could have a single sig or you could have this complicated multi sig with time locks and, you know, all sorts of other features to it.  

And it's the same software, same library. You're not rewriting the library or even using different features. You're still using the same features. And you you just have to, you know, obviously, there's more software you need to build around it for coordinating,  

[00:27:34] Unknown:

signing, and all those things, but or talking to your hardware wallet. But but the core code is the same. Yeah. It's like a tool that once you learn it, you can do everything, basically. So if you learn It's just army knife. I don't know. Bitcoin JS, you can do, like, single sig, multi sig maybe. And then you wanna do something more complicated, and you have to learn   any new one. Start over, basically. Yeah. With BDK and and Miniscript in general, you just learn that, and then you're basically done for at least for on chain development on Bitcoin that you can do. I think one thing but it really mentions that,   normally, we say BDK is a tool, that you can use to make wallets.  

I mean, technically, that's true. Like, a wallet is   the piece of software that stores your keys, and then you can receive funds and you can spend them.   But I think with BDK, you can also make not only, like, the wallet app, you can make any kind of service   that somehow   interacts with with OnChain Bitcoin. So any kind of service that needs to, receive funds or need to send funds. So, like, for example, you you build a faucet.   Right. 100%. Or a 100 biscuit. Yeah. Mhmm. You built a built a faucet for,   for his PADA one wallet. And that's I mean For what wallet?   PADA one wallet. Is that the right pronunciation? Star War Star Wars reference. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Which is the the one that we were talking about before, the simple,   like, kind of educational wallet.  

And then, yeah, you can build a faucet with BDK because legally really, a faucet is just piece of software that creates a transaction   when when a user want when some test and funds.   Or you can you can build   you can, like, monitor if you're, I don't know, in accounting or something, you can, with BDK, monitor the wallet, like, company wallet. Like, a watch only version of it. Yeah. Like, a watch only, basically. So you can build accounting software around this thing where you paste your descriptor,   and this will pull all of your historical transactions, and you can do, I don't know, all the boring accounting stuff on that.   So, yeah, I think it goes   a lot,  

[00:29:29] Unknown:

a lot further than just a wallet app, which is I mean, that is probably gonna be the main thing. But being built on Rust and this gets back to Rust because we like Rust. It's, you know, you We like the Rust. You can compile it for mobile. You know, you can make these binaries for mobile. You can make them for,   desktop. You can make them for high powered multiprocessor or servers, or you can run them in the web. In the web browser, that's what the mutiny guys are doing. They're basically running the whole shebang in the browser, compiling Rust into   this WASM format. Right. Or you could run it in if you're really into, like, Node. Js.  

Daniela here is did a little  

[00:30:02] Unknown:

some work this week. Yeah. Yeah. It's just just like a really little example. Like, I think I did it in, like, couple of hours, something like that.   Just how to use BDK Node. Js. So it basically compiles to Wasm, and then, I use some tools to basically,   make it understandable to Node. Js. So then you write some Node. Js code, and you're just, I don't know, getting the balance of a certain wallet or creating a descriptor,   etcetera.   But, yeah, again, just a really small example.  

[00:30:32] Unknown:

That's a proof of concept because Yes.   Running in this this Node. Js framework is just really popular. A lot of developed, a lot of projects, a lot of enterprise softwares built that with that technology   just like proving that concept that   it's anywhere. You know?   Sun used to have this some microsystems used to have this motto, write once, run anywhere. It's kinda that idea. You have to recompile it, of course, but it's it is sort of the same   same well tested stuff running everywhere, which is pretty cool.   Actually, I wanted to hear more about so the the padawan stuff. The other thing that   that ThunderBiscuit's working on is a like an example Android wallet. Do you wanna talk about that and why you built that? Yeah. Totally. So this was initially I mean, I started building this almost 2 years ago.  



[00:31:16] Unknown:

And and it BDK was sort of at the core of it. And, I think right now it's one of the   cool BDK apps, like, in production. You can download it in the App Store.   And, you know, it's it's a cool proof of concept with also the the faucet. But the core idea of Better one wallet is that,   it's a test net only wallet.   And within the first, like, minute you open it,   you can just it'll send you test net coins.   You get 75,000   test net Satoshis, and then you get to play around with your friends. You can learn about Bitcoin. You can do it all, and then there's a series of tutorials. So it's 9 tutorials about   what are keys, what's the mempool, what does it mean to put a fee, and what does it mean to be, you know, before you get mined in a block? And, anyway, these kind these kinds of things. And I think it's a  

[00:32:03] Unknown:

that that's the idea. Training too. It's automated sort of self custodial training. Like, it's getting that that comfort with testnet coins. So it's go ahead, like, go ahead and lose them if you want. Can you use it with mainnet or only testnet? Only testnet. So it's sort of like the protection. I mean, you could you could recompile it for mainnet. It would actually work. If you don't. Yeah. But I don't offer it. So you can download it on the Play Store with, mainnet. Because it's tied into this idea that as soon as you start up your tutorial, it gives you some Bitcoin to play with. That's pretty cool. Yeah.  

[00:32:30] Unknown:

The idea for me was either   I don't know why I thought about this, but, like, either older people who'd like they don't really care about Bitcoin. They don't trust it. They don't wanna buy any or,   people who are younger. So if you're, like, 14, you're interested in Bitcoin, but your dad is not and your mom is not, how are you gonna get coins? It's almost impossible to to buy coins even to try   it. Whereas with test net, if you have a mobile device to an exchange or something like that. There's no sign exactly. You just if you have if you have a mobile device on Android, you can download it, and it'll work for you. You can send it with your friends. Even if you have a little community at school of few people who have I like that. Had to one wallets, then maybe your testnet coins are worth something all of a sudden. Right? You can have it's like in prison how, like, cigarettes are worth something. Maybe if you have test net coins and nobody else knows how to get test net coins. But the tutorials also teach you how to go to The original shit coins.   Yeah.  



[00:33:21] Unknown:

Exactly. Yeah. I I just love the fact that there's just a button to receive the coins in the app. Because for example, right now, if you just Google,   Bitcoin test net faucet, there's a lot of shit just like BNB test net faucet, and you're just It's kinda hard to get. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.   Exactly.   So, yeah, I just I just love that.  

[00:33:43] Unknown:

I had a problem initially because I didn't have a faucet sending you coins, and then I had to somehow teach you   about enough Bitcoin technicals for you to then say go to this faucet online and send yourself to SNAD coins,   copy and paste it. It was just like, you go, what? I don't understand. Yeah. I didn't understand. And so I was like, no. Let me send you coins just, like, right away. And then and then you can learn later on. So you didn't have enough testnet coins though. Right? Oh. I think Yeah, dude. Scores.   Yeah. Yeah. I need Somebody hooked you up to some extra Yeah. Coin. Yeah. I'm a hook at that. People say testnet coins are worthless, but I'll tell you something. Yeah. Everybody's got it. Yeah. If you're looking for test net coins,   it's not always easy. Yeah. Because everybody  

[00:34:25] Unknown:

loses them and and throws them away and, like,   when you get them from the faucet, very rarely you actually send them back. So, like, over time, they're getting more and more, scarce, and you can even buy them. So yeah. The the Things you don't have to work for have less value. So you're losing them. Yeah. Yeah. You don't yeah. I don't care about them. Yeah. And you and I think the other interesting thing about these these sort of sample applications, even though it's test net, if somebody  

[00:34:48] Unknown:

another Android developer wants to make an Android wallet, it's all open source. It's all completely openly you know, it's the most permissive licenses we can do,   and they just   work it   and rebrand it and put it on main net potentially.   They wanna, you know, take out the faucet part and they're ready to go. You know, we've we've   I think we probably have people out there doing that already. You haven't heard of them yet, but, you know, that's, like, just  

[00:35:13] Unknown:

the most developers, that's what they wanna do. Copy paste. Yeah. If I recall correctly, we also have, like, the dev kit wallet, which is exactly that. Just like an example, and you can fork it and modify it, and that's just so cool. I think I'm on my I'm on my 3rd student right now in my DM who's doing,  

[00:35:28] Unknown:

you know, like, 4th year computer science student. They'd need to do some sort of project, and then they fork the dev kit wallet and just, like, propose that. And so they've done all sorts of crazy UI on this. And So how do we download the pattern on the wallet? Right on the Play Store. Oh, it is on the Play Store. It's right on the Play Store. And then how do you download the dev kit wallet?   These are 2 different wallets. Right? Yeah. Yes. And that's not downloadable. I mean, you have to to compile it? Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. So I got it. Money yourself kind of thing. So if I just search padawan on the On the Play Store, it'll download it. And we for the for the Android users out there, we also have a  

[00:36:01] Unknown:

just a very simple test Android   sorry. Very test iOS wallet in Swift That's right. That future Paul made as just like a He's here too. A weekend project. Yeah. He I don't think he's super proud of it because it was his very first Swift and the right iOS app. But we use it whenever we make a new release. I make sure it compiles with his app because it's, like, the only, you know, easy one to get at, and it's it's open source. So that's, like again, it's even though it may not be perfect, I would love to see any, iOS developers out there. You know, go check out the, this the b d k swift,   GitHub repo and, you know, help improve,   future polls code and make it a good example for everybody. That's not on  

[00:36:40] Unknown:

the app store. Right? It's not on the app store. No. Yeah. Maybe somebody should polish it up and and publish it, like like, we done it by the one. So Yeah. Just like a test net version. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:36:49] Unknown:

What about,   ThunderBiscuit?   What about, I know you told me I could call you TB, but I'm just gonna say Thunder Biscuit as often as I can. Yeah.   Do you find any issues with the   irregularity   of test net? Like, it's not   It's It's very similar to Bitcoin, but still, like, blocks get mined at a different rate. Yeah. Totally.  

[00:37:12] Unknown:

It has been certainly something I struggle with because the app well, at least for Padawan, it's just to to learn.   Right. It's not too bad. But one of the one of the issues it creates, for example, is that,   because I'm trying to reproduce the experience you'd get on a main network. Right. Right? I want your grandma to just spend a weekend on this, delete it on the Monday morning, and then download a real main net wallet, and then she would know. So she'll have   already, you know, used the idea of, like, picking your your fee rate or whatever. And one of the issues, for example, with test net is that it tends to be always 1, Satoshi.   Oh, hey. You don't get the fee I don't have the I don't have the fee market experience. There's no fee market. So I need Casey to put inscriptions.  



[00:37:53] Unknown:

That's right. He had it on test net originally, but he wants to put in there NFTs. Never made a problem. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's a fake it. Just tell the user Yeah. Oh, there's there's a lot of  

[00:38:03] Unknown:

transactions. For them. Yeah. Exactly. If you wanna talk about a hard thing for people to conceptualize   Yeah. When if you're in the education part of Bitcoin during a sustained high fee market, it is   fucking mess. Yeah.   It is like, no one it's hard to   it's just something that's foreign to us that that the way because, like, you can may you can even do, like, a next block fee, and then it could just run away from you. Yeah. Or, like, block variance could happen, and it could be 45 minute. It's just, like, it takes a while for people to actually comprehend it. True. I don't know if you have RBF in your wallet, but that might be an I do. Yeah. You do? Okay. So yeah. So, of course, BDK Sports RBF, and  

[00:38:42] Unknown:

that's the kind of thing you need people to understand. It's like, well, if you really need it sooner, you can bump your fee up. Right. Have this feature just,  

[00:38:48] Unknown:

you know, you know, select the transaction you wanna bump and which fee is you need to bump it to. I guess it'll tell you the minimum fee you need to bump it to. That's the kind of thing you wanna practice on testnet too. Yeah. I mean, what does it mean to bump a transaction? Well, try it on testnet first. Like, what does it mean to recover while trying on testnet first? Always try it on testnet first. That's what I like about Sparrow.   I mean, I like, Sparrow's just Sparrow's amazing. Turn it on testnet.   Thank god for Craig Raw. This this yeah. It's really   but it's an example of, like, what creates problems for education on padawan, for example, is   if I either fake to the user that, you know, I give them, like, a quick, normal,   long fee kinda thing, like estimated   block Right. But then inside of fake, which is doesn't necessarily make sense because I also wanna link.  



[00:39:34] Unknown:

I want the experience to be real and so that you The full package. That's because the mem the the I want you to click on the log action.  

[00:39:42] Unknown:

It leads you to mempool. Space, and you can see your transaction on testnet because that's what I do also on mainnet. Right? If you have your own braille, you might click and just go see your transaction on on a block explorer. So I want the users to learn that that workflow as well. If you if you need to look something,   you can go on the mempool explorer. So if I if I give you a wrong fee rate and then you go on the mempool explorer, but there's no blocks Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody is using confusing. Yep. Then you're double confused. Giving all our free time, it should create a BDK signet.  

[00:40:09] Unknown:

Oh. Just have it, like, randomly make traffic and, like, you know, give all this very Yeah. Because that's kinda the only way to do it. So Correct.  

[00:40:16] Unknown:

Signet, maybe. Signet, when you spin up a Signet,   like, Testnet has minors. Signet just essentially is, like, has, like, still has minors, but you can control who mines the blocks. Yeah. You sign the blocks. You assign the blocks. Yeah. I guess. Blocks. Yeah. I mean, they they get, like, a special signature or something that allows them to but they're not actually  

[00:40:34] Unknown:

providing compute. Right? It's just, like, permission? As far as I understand, you know, that I think they actually do the the total money, but because you can control   who the miners are, the difficulty never goes out. So you can do it on just a regular CPU or Yeah. You can use a regular CPU if you just you you just don't,   overmine it yourself as long as it's only 2 people or 3 people. Is that where we're moving that most people are gonna use Cigna instead of Testnet? Project's going that way. It is a bit of work, though, because you have to have it online all the time. Testnet's just weird. I it's it's I've just have a weird love hate relationship with Testnet. And the nice thing about Testnet is it's got, you know, years of history  

[00:41:10] Unknown:

that But then it gets wiped every once in a while. Right? It starts to don't know if it's been right. I think it's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. I I just don't get why we don't just wipe it and start again. I mean, they're difficult to find it as it's going, so let's just start again. There's orders.  

[00:41:23] Unknown:

The way you would wipe it is you would say, okay. Everybody used a new,   Genesys block. Right?  

[00:41:29] Unknown:

Yeah. Because otherwise, you just you can reapply all the blocks. Exactly. So so you need a different Genesys so that the second block is not valid. Otherwise, you can reuse the chain. If you do that, you've got to get everyone to agree. Okay. Now we got test net 3. Test net 4. Test net 4. Yeah. I mean, yeah, currently, it's 3. So that'll be test net 4. So it's collisionless. Let's make it up in the first BDK the BDK team should launch a new test net. Yeah. That sounds  

[00:41:51] Unknown:

like just so we can get test net coins easier. Yeah. Exactly. We'll be the we'll be the the pre miners.  

[00:41:57] Unknown:

Yes. Let's do a pre mine. Pre mine on test f four. Because I wonder, like  

[00:42:02] Unknown:

I mean, I think this padawan wallet I I'm   it seems really cool. It's a cool concept, and I I see how the faucet aspect is really   key to the whole thing, and that's why you really need it to be test net.   But I wondered, like, if there's just too much   like, if you give someone $20 of Bitcoin on a mainnet wallet, and you just tell them to mess around with it, you know, go through the different processes and stuff, I guess it's not scalable. The beauty of Patawatt anyone can download and they just get free coin. But, like, when I onboard someone, like, I feel like the bigger issue when we talk about, like, personal responsibility and and stuff is, like, usually when people onboard people nowadays, and it wasn't used to be like this, is you just, like, send them to a you're just, like off to the wolves with you. You just send them to a custodial KYC exchange, you know,   instead of just sending them a little Bitcoin. Like, if I send someone $20 worth of Bitcoin and I tell them, okay. Send it back to me, then I send it to you, then delete your wallet, then restore it. What's the worst they can have when they lose you know, I lose $10, $15?  



[00:42:58] Unknown:

I think the the problem with that is that, yeah, most people just lose the money. So, like, a bit, it's a donation to us all. Yeah. No. No. No. I   mean, you can see that way, but I think it's frustrating for, ever many people say, oh, and, like, in 2014,   I I talked about Bitcoin to this guy, and I sent him, like, yeah, $20.   And then a few years later, you realize that it It's, like, $900.   Yeah. It's a lot of money, and then it's On the back. Like, you have missed off because they're, like, you didn't even take care of the key. You you lost the money. So,   I don't know. I think many people probably,   had that experience in the past. Like, they would give Satoshis to to people who were onboarding,   and and they lost them all. And at this point, they're like, okay. So if you really care about Bitcoin, just go and and and get yours. So maybe you you'll understand the value of money a little bit more if if you go and and pay for them. I gave first of all, never regretted a single Bitcoin gift even when they lost it.  



[00:43:53] Unknown:

But I used to. When I used to give Bitcoin, I would just keep   Call the bill. I would just give a backup of their private keys. Yeah. And   Yeah. I gave it to I gave it to, like, 10 of my family members in, like, 2013,   2014, maybe 2015 even,   because the price went down in 2015, so it was lower then. But, anyway, my sister lost it. My cousin lost it. And so what I did was I had them all on the same file. So I just, like, they both they both reached out to me, and they were like, can you restore it? And I just sweep them all at once. And my uncle reached out to me, and he was like, I think I lost my Bitcoin. I don't know what happened. I was like, oh, that was me. My bad. And I just sent the I still guy who took care of it. But I was like, that uncle was like But I rug pulled him. I was so proud of him that for noticing. He realized, like, 2 days after I did it, he learned a lesson. Like, make sure no one has a copy of his key. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Make sure you will Get your hand. The coffee.  

[00:44:43] Unknown:

That's a good point. Actually, I was thinking of other, like, interesting   educational apps. And I don't know if you wanted to talk, Danielle, about the stuff you did in Bangkok. Oh, yeah. But I was working with Raj. Raj is another one of the developers on the team. Oh, so Evan. And Evan. Evan. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Forget Evan. Yeah. So, basically, we had to do this workshop that we're going to actually redo here in Nashville on Yes. Saturday. So I'll plug Saturday, Nashville.  

[00:45:05] Unknown:

So, yeah, the point Drive in for it.   The point was,   we had a very nontechnical   crowd, and we had to explain to them what's BDK, and we were like, uh-oh.   That's not easy. Right?   So we were just like, okay. Let's build this wallet, and we have this interface where you can just,   define your wallet with,   blocks that look like,   the Scratch. Scratch ones. Exactly. So Kids. Yeah. Exactly. So you just define your policy, which might be just like,   Daniela and Steve, and then you have a whole wallet, that you can use to just   spend those coins. And Multi seg wallet? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So you just,   you have your   sign page, and you have a PSBT, and you just sign it. It's all web based. Yes. You need to install anything. Yeah. Yeah. So and then you try to broadcast it, and you're like, oh, it doesn't work. Oh, right. Because Steve has to sign it. So you just give the PSVT to Steve, and Steve signs it. And, yeah, we did a whole workshop on that just, like, telling people about multi sig and then eventually about time locks, and that was just super fun. So it's all graphic, and these guys, like, basically  

[00:46:23] Unknown:

they're like, okay. It's all gonna be in the browser. It's gonna be, you know, point and click sorta. Yeah. We kind of ignored the problem of,  

[00:46:30] Unknown:

at the end of the week, we we had to do this workshop, and we we spend all week just ignoring the And getting out of it? To do it. And then we got there, like, the day before, and we were like, oh, what what are we gonna do? So we decided to develop this thing and, yeah, it was basically, like, kind of a thing. It Yeah.   Definitely was, like, we we finished at, like, 3 AM. So it was not comfortable   one day,   of development, but Long one day. It was yeah. Like, normally, it would be 2 days. So so it was pretty quick to to put everything together.   And yeah. And I don't know if you've mentioned it already, but, this thing is called elephant because we were in Thailand, and we didn't know how to name this thing. Like, there's there are elephants here.  

And and now this thing is hosted at elephant.peacondevkit.org.   So it's open for,   everybody to try. Yeah. It's also, test net only.   And, yeah, you have, like, this visual editor. You can create complex policies with with other people.   And then you you play around. You you share case BTUs. You sign them. You broadcast them.  

[00:47:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It's really a it's really not just a BDK demo, but a mini script Right? Yeah. I think it's more Yeah. Exactly. It really gets deep into how you can what you can do. Another thing it has that we think is pretty cool. It's obviously super super unsafe,   But basically, we were like only.   Yeah. I mean, right,   I think it's in It it was No. Now it's in test. Right. Sorry. In bank  

[00:47:50] Unknown:

Sorry. I just because we we talked about it a little bit   before. So in Benco, what we we what we did was we created a local rec test.   So, basically, we had, Raj's laptop with a,   mempool of space instance and,   a script that would mind blocks periodically. So in Venkat, it was based on ReactOS. And this kind of ties into the the discussion we were having before about, oh, should we use a test net or and that that was fine because nobody else was  

[00:48:15] Unknown:

spamming, basically. Like, if you do it publicly, somebody can come in and spam and then create other blocks, but there we only had one laptop producing them. So so it was my control environment. So basically, we realized that one step which is super important of multi sig is sharing the keys with your peers. But we were like, I mean, we don't want people to spend, like, 15 minutes every time just sending each other private key public keys. So we're like, okay. Let's do this alias based thing where you,   pick an an alias for yourself, and we just take the string and,   from that we,   deterministically   generate a private key. So what that means it's on on the website, you don't see keys, you just see aliases. And obviously, that's super unsafe because if I know your alias, I I can generate your private key.  

But, yeah, I think that really worked.   So now when when you basically build the policy of your wallet, you don't have an  

[00:49:11] Unknown:

x pub blah blah blah. You just have You the you to to share to share your pub key Just say your name. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. That I think that's a brilliant thing. I did a workshop at tab comp last year, and I was just trying to get to use so BDK as a CLI, and we're trying to use the CLI to do something similar. And we just had so many problems with people typing   things in the wrong order also. Yeah. Yeah. It's a sort of an order dependency there   and just mistyping stuff or copy because they were they were showing it over Discord, but, you know, they might have, like,   lost which one they were supposed to copy at. So yeah.  



[00:49:44] Unknown:

So much better way to do it. Yeah. I did a workshop in the Azores Adyen conference   with BDK.   And and we were doing, like, a multi sig. I I think we were 15 people, and I played it safe. So it was, like, an 8 out of 15 because I was, like, you never know.   Right? And then,   I give a backup key,   which could be used to recover the funds after, like, some time lock. So I was like time lock on an 8 of 15. 15. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So worst case scenario, someone's going to recover them with the the back back backup key.   And, yeah, many people lost their private key. And I was just like,   no. But, yeah that, was it? No. It was test net. But, yeah, thankfully, we still had at least 8 people with the with the key. So for that. Yeah. Yeah. But it was pretty fine because people were just like,  

[00:50:31] Unknown:

so I lost it and I was like for this new scheme. You kinda learned your lesson in it. Yeah. Course.  

[00:50:37] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[00:50:38] Unknown:

It's really cool working with people in person. Right? Like, these workshops and stuff. You learn so much more about,   and the questions always catch you off guard too. I feel like  

[00:50:47] Unknown:

Yeah. It's kinda weird because you can think about something for hours and hours,   And then somebody comes up and and they ask a question that you haven't they ask something that you haven't thought of, in in, like, in in 5 minutes of them seeing this this project, they can come up with something that you couldn't come up with in hours. Saying software development that no software has ever survived the users. Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, I think right now, the Bitcoin UX,  

[00:51:12] Unknown:

it's not exactly great. And, I mean, yes, we're devs. We love just  

[00:51:17] Unknown:

chatting with between each other on Discord and just coding all day. But, actually, the way we're going to improve the Bitcoin UX is just going out there, chatting with people, and just hearing what what they don't understand and making it easier for them. So And our users aren't just end users using the mobile app. Our users are the API, you know, people actually writing and creating wallets. So, like, every time we we every time someone comes on our Discord and says, oh, hey. I'm building some users. Like, alright. Tell us what you like. You know, like, this is, like, this is the feedback we need. We need users telling you know, even if you're just like a weekend warrior, go build something. You know? Tell us what you like about the API. What makes sense? You know? Where did we misspell something in our docs even? It's just, you know, that that makes a huge difference. Difference. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people's just like, I don't understand this thing. And we're like, oh, but there's these docs. And they're like, yeah.  

[00:52:05] Unknown:

No.  

[00:52:07] Unknown:

That doesn't really work. And we're like, oh, okay. Okay. We're going to improve it. Yeah. Yeah. And just, yeah, seeing what people wanna do with it too. That's always interesting because not everybody wants to build a wallet. Some people, you know, I   a little bit of a segue into what's the future of BDK is, you know, some people don't wanna make just simple wallets or even just a simple server based application. They want to do like point mixing or silent payments or I don't know what are some of the other like strange things that   Was it the done wallet? What was that supposed to be? It was a DLC.  



[00:52:36] Unknown:

Yeah. They were like DLC stuff. Crypto,  

[00:52:39] Unknown:

weird stuff. Yeah. So, you know, that was interesting feedback and has motivated some of the future changes going on right now for BDK.   Lloyd,   Fournier, I don't know if I said that name right, and Evan   sort of started this project,   to to add some additional functionality kind of   BDK started with sort of a high level API,   more user friendly,   but didn't give a lot of a lower level stuff if you wanted to do stranger stuff, you know, some of these stranger So they started working on this initiative to to build this, what we're calling BDK core or BDK 1 point o, which sort of be our new final API adding some more of these low level features and, you know,   fixing some of the, like, multithreading stuff that people are are needing for some of these applications.  

That's sort of our big push this year. That's one of the things the team is,   you know, gonna be focused  

[00:53:31] Unknown:

very heavily on in the coming months. Yeah. Exactly. So on the other side, like, if you want to contribute to BDK right now to the main Rust repo, just don't. Because, yeah, at this point if you wanna get involved, if you're like a rock star Rust developer, like, definitely get involved, but it's gonna be a a it's it's not like there's not a lot of low hanging fruit right now. It's like I mean yeah. Exactly. But you have to work on the new BDK course stuff because have to be ready for Yeah. If you want to just,   up like, add a new feature to the current BDK,   what's that? 0.27?  

0.26?  

[00:54:05] Unknown:

We're getting ready to release 0 dot   27.5v where it kinda sits for a while and and it'll be primarily bug fixes. Exactly. Exactly. Just don't try to add features there because, like, the whole team is working on something else, and we don't even have, like And is that repo not public right now? It's all public. Yes. Public. Yes. We're in so there's a so Lloyd has a staging repo Okay. That he's they've been doing all their experimentation, kinda getting the the basic framework set up.   And we're in the stage right now   of   testing that   and getting getting it prepared to move into the main repo,   the main the the master branch, you know, call it.  

And that and once we've committed that code into the master branch, it's sort of like   sort of the point of no return. Like, we're we're committing. That's gonna be our   you know, all of our our new work is gonna be happening there on that Got it. New framework.  

[00:54:54] Unknown:

So essentially, for final users, the   API is probably not gonna change all that much. So, like, if you if you were using BDK or if you're using BDK right now, once that BDK one point of things are finished, it's basically gonna be the same for you. The only difference is that if you want more access to the low low level, more powerful APIs, you're gonna have that. So so you're not gonna be forced to change your code necessarily, but you're gonna have access to,   a lot more space to play with potentially. A lot more. Yeah.  

[00:55:23] Unknown:

And we we were talking about education   before too, but BDK is also in the game of education for developers. Right. I think in a way. Right? And that gets passed down. So you have, like, you know,   PULA,   Polestra, Sanket. They build Rust manuscript. Okay? So that gets, like, passed on to And   Rust And then Rust Bitcoin. Right? And then that's eventually, you got, like, developers who write BDK, which is sort of like a simpler verb, like, exposing   simple ways to use it. Wallet wallet function. Yeah. Adding all of that. And now we're passing that down. Like, people come on the Discord server and,   you know, they wanna build something special, but they what they write is UI and they so but they've heard about all these great things, and so they wanna build a wallet. But they're used to libraries that are more   more like give me 12 words. Here's your wallet. But that's 3 k uses latest tech, like, and so you're gonna need output descriptors. It's education all the way down. All the way down. And and be All the way down. Be close to the mic, Steve. Alright. Yeah. Being a being a wallet  

[00:56:21] Unknown:

project, being more accessible, I think we also attract more developers that wanna get involved, like, you know, people that just wanna work on a Bitcoin project and,   you know, was a nice entry point. We have a developer, a new developer this year named Vlad who's one of our first African developers.   That's awesome. He's got a grant from,   Quala.   And, yeah, he's he's, like, taken over   We're, part Oh, yep. We have a Kuala with a q. Right? Kuala with a q. Yeah. So he's, like, you know, split this one of the projects we have this year was to split off some of the code from the main BDK   into a support supporting library. So he's like, you know, what can I work on? What can I do? It's like, okay. You know, take take this this Rust Explorer thing, and and he's, like, maintaining it, helping, you know, patch it and support it. So that's where it's, like, developer education comes in too for a project like this. The African  

[00:57:11] Unknown:

vibes are really high on the African   the African continent,   developers.   Like, I feel like I I find so many that are They're motivated. They're super motivated and they're very excited about it. They come in fast and hard. Yep. Same. Yeah. Like, we get we get we do summer Bitcoin. We did summer Bitcoin last year, and we'll we'll probably, you know, potentially have some summer Bitcoin people this year.  

[00:57:33] Unknown:

They, you know, they wanna learn. They're like and, you know, we've got, like, Thunder Biscuit actually had, like, what, 5 mentees last year. He was, like, way overachieving there. Not not all under me, but yeah. But, like, in the project Mhmm. Is kind of that's exciting to run. This was like, well, summer Bitcoin was super oversubscribed, right? Like, what was it like 95% oversubscribers? And it's like insane amount of applications? I think 20,000 applicants That's crazy. Yeah. And, like, well, how many were chosen? Like, 200 or something. Right?   Yeah. I mean, the limiting factor by the end of it. Mentors because every mentee gets a mentor, and it's quite a quite a quite   a quite a bit of time if you wanna be a mentor Right. To do this. And that  

[00:58:12] Unknown:

includes, designers as well. Yes. So we had, like, for for me, it was for Petaw and Wallet. We had 3 designers who were mentor went mentees   of Steven DeLorme, which you probably know. Huge friend of   of of mine. That's right. And the part And and Cristo Fanon. So these two guys were basically  

[00:58:29] Unknown:

basically mentors on the on the designer side, and then I had an engineer, which I was mentor of. So, like, the whole padawan was project coordinated. Yeah. Everybody's basically working on this padawan thing at the same time. And if you see when you download it and you take a look at it, it's polished. Like, it it it actually really paid off the design side. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say the about the summary of Bitcoin, I think that's kind of an eat or miss  

[00:58:53] Unknown:

in in a way,   because the problem is I mean, probably it's a good thing. They they pay a salary to the developer subscribing. But the problem is that this attracts a lot of people who don't care about Bitcoin at all. They just have to take the money.   So for example, we had some good experiences with some developers that were actually, like, into what they were doing, some bad experiences with people that were just there   just to get the money. So they say, they wouldn't care about the project. They would just do the bare minimum. They would be like, oh, yeah. I'm stuck with this, and why didn't you ask for help? Like, I'm here to help. It's the same problem with bounties sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You put a bounty up. Sometimes you get people that just want the bounty and aren't really there to learn. Yeah.  

[00:59:27] Unknown:

So   it's a bit more work on the development team sometimes. And it become more of a burden than the help. Yeah. Because you've gotten out. We we recently had a bounty and, you know, thank you very much for Hugh for setting up this bounty on, Geyser Fund.   And we got some great contributors that I they're gonna get the bounty,   including I think it was Ben car Carmen, did he? Was he or was it?   I think. I think it was maybe the future. So anyway, like, some some some other developers that were first contributors   on BDK   are gonna get the bounty, but, but we also got people just, like, making   2 character grammar changes and Yeah. They're, like, fixing type words. Yeah. Yeah. You can type when they wanted the $50   bounty. Yeah. They wanted to try to do that, and that's a bit of a bit of noise on the project. So it's, you know, it I think we're still experimenting too with how to onboard people and how to   find contributors.  



[01:00:18] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, they're mainly they're finding us, which is great. I think in general, it's important to be open to other developers. Like, when you see somebody who's motivated and they want to start contributing, you help them out.   The problem is sometimes, yeah, you get those people who   they just don't want to put in any effort. Like, I don't know if you remember on Discord that people were like, oh, I'm stuck with this error. Can I fix it? And it was, like, a very clear error. Yeah. It was like,   I don't know, please install Rust. Yeah. Something like that. And they were like, oh, oh my god. I don't know what to do. Like, read the error. Yeah. It is not that so, yeah, sometimes you get those people that I don't know. I guess Sometimes it's like Yeah. Maybe it's like a college project. They they just have to do something, and they they they don't want to put in any effort so that it's kinda kinda sucks. Yeah. Actually, talking about new developers. So Evan is one of our new developers,  

[01:01:02] Unknown:

and, he's a great example of someone who just came in,   started I mean, he had worked on projects before. He he had some experience, and he he just, like, started looking for bugs and fixing them or looking for issues and writing up issues, you know, just writing them up in a in a clear way that they could be fixed. And now he's working with Lloyd on this one point o stuff. So he, like, just jumped in feet first.   And, you know, he he'll admit he came from sort of some shit coining   development shops. And,   you know, but we are open to everybody. You know, we don't care if you worked on shit coins before. If you understand the air of your ways and you want to work on a real Bitcoin project Well, that's how people learn. Yeah. You have to learn. You people you know, everybody comes in at different times in different places.  



[01:01:44] Unknown:

So, you know, and and, you know, now we have a great new contributor to the project. So But I mean, that's where I was trying to get at before with test my love hate relationship with testnet. It's like,   at some point, you just gotta take the training wheels off, and like the kid's gonna fall and hit himself, You know? But that that's how he learns. Right? If you keep the training wheels on the whole time, there there seems like a little bit of   a that that's it's a little bit too prevalent in the space, like, to to just, like, pad all the walls and try and make it, you know, too comfortable for people.   When ultimately they're going to have to. Yeah. You're going to have to learn a checkpoint. Yeah. You have to have success if you want to. But these are these are for soundproofing. Yeah. To be clear, these walls are very padded in here. Yes.  

No. It's like how how you guys named elephant. Right? I was looking around. It's like padded walls.  

[01:02:33] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I think you're right. I mean, I think   peep people do have to learn. I I know, like,   I'll call it my brother here. So he he pays his kids in lightning sats for their for their, chores.   And, you know, if they lose them or they more likely they don't lose them, but they, you know, they go buy candy when the price is low.   Right. Then, they don't have them when the price goes high, you know?   That's how people learn. I mean, they're gonna care more about the price if they're real stats. Right. Or at least the purchasing power, like, how much candy they can get with stats. Exactly. What what kind of toys? In a post in a hyper Bitcoin is that hyper   Bitcoinization post hyper Bitcoinization, like, the kids are just gonna care about how much candy they can buy. Yeah. We get to college and go back and look at how much, sats they spent 10 years before. They might cry a little bit. Yeah.  



[01:03:17] Unknown:

When I first learned about Bitcoin, like, as far as I I just use Tesla a lot even with lightning, so I just played around a lot. And then I was at this internship at a Bitcoin company that's not here anymore.   And   Sorry? Rest in peace. Yeah. Rest in peace. Exactly. Exactly.   So, yeah, this guy was just like, okay. Now I'm going to send you some real Bitcoin, and you send them back to me. And it was, like, $50, and I was, like, an unemployed kid. So I was, like, sweating.   Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And and I did everything right, but I just double checked everything, like, 5 fucking times. And I felt like, okay. Now I'm doing the real stuff. Because with Tessa, I was just like, oh, yeah. Copy paste the address, whatever. And I was there, like, oof, this has to go right.  

[01:04:03] Unknown:

So yeah. They run training wheels. Yeah. That's a feature for Padawan. Like, you have some sort of selector, like, turn training wheels off, and then you're gonna, like All hell bracelets. Put in a, you know, an email of a friend or something who's gonna send a, you know, send an address to give you real real ones too. That would be a cool feature just like, graduation button.  

[01:04:22] Unknown:

There's a term I use called, like, uncle Jim.  

[01:04:25] Unknown:

Yeah. That's true. Where,  

[01:04:27] Unknown:

you know, going back to what Aliko said, it's like, I just feel like so many people are groomed with the society nowadays just removes all personal responsibility.   So when I think about how do we transition to a world that has radical personal responsibility, which is this idea of just like the greater open source movement and Bitcoin together,   just, you know, more sovereign individuals.   That's a major hurdle, And I think the only way it scales is is is people helping friends and family and local community. Right? It was one of the reasons why we've taken such a huge risk on Bitcoin Park is that I think physical spaces and community development is is super important for the movement.   So, like, wallets that are designed, whether that's Padawan, built into Padawan or something different, like wallets that are designed   where   there is some kind of link with a friend's wallet or a family member's wallet where they can kinda see what you're doing. Like, it's built from the ground up as a,   you you know, like, a guidance wallet where I have some kind of super user   power mixed into there. Right? Where you, like, build it out in that purpose.  



[01:05:33] Unknown:

When I was a kid, my my grandfather   was, flying airplanes, like mini airplanes a lot. And, this was all gas back then. Now they're all electric.   And so remote control. Yeah. Remote control ones. Yeah. And he was the president of the club and whatnot. And   so and the the first time I flew with him, like, the first few months,   you had we were side by side, and he had a controller, and they were connected by a wire.   And he could, at any time, just flip the switch and take override it. Yeah.   I still crashed it. House. Yeah. I still crashed the I still actually crashed it one day. He wasn't able to take control   quick enough to crash it. It'd be cool if you had a Bitcoin wallet like that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Co pilot. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of a Co pilot. But I like these ideas of, like, just time locks Yeah. Where it Keys that become available. Someone else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give me I mean, we've got mini script. We've got we have the power. You can totally do that. Yeah. These these are your keys. This is your wallet.  

But 5 years down the road, if this hasn't moved, you lost it, some third party gets custody. Right. I can recover it then. Let's say yeah. Something like that. Speaking of humanities, I'm gonna self promote our  

[01:06:39] Unknown:

Do it. We're doing.   So Daniel and I, we we live in Italy. We live in a small town,   kinda near Milan, called Brescia.   Probably nobody has ever heard of it. But,   and and, I mean, we are bored when we're there. We just don't know what to do. So we decided to open,   kind of a Bitcoin access space,  

[01:06:57] Unknown:

thing. Awesome.  

[01:06:58] Unknown:

It's gonna be super small. Like, compared to this, it's it's nothing compared to Bitcoin Park.   But, yeah, I mean, you you gotta start small, I guess.   Good goal is to have, though. So is it open yet? No. We are so right before leaving, we signed,  

[01:07:13] Unknown:

rent. Oh, congratulations.  

[01:07:15] Unknown:

Yeah. So we found a a spot in the in the city center. So cool, you know, like, Italian How far is it out of Milan?  

[01:07:22] Unknown:

It's 1 hour by car. Oh, that's awesome. With trains, it's, like, 35 minutes. We I love Milan. Milan's a great city. Yeah. I mean yeah. We used to live there. It's it's good. It's also bad there. Well, I'm a I'm a former New Yorker, so Milan feels like Italy meets New York. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a big It was very familiar to me. It wasn't like a tourist city. It was, like, actually, like, I was there and people were going to work and things. Yeah. It's a big big financial center of Italy, I guess.  

[01:07:48] Unknown:

So, yeah, we we're doing this thing. Hopefully, in a couple of months, it's gonna be ready and and fully open. So if you come by,  

[01:07:55] Unknown:

Italy and in Europe How do we find more information about it? Do do you have a site or anything else? So, yeah, we have a website.  

[01:08:01] Unknown:

The website is, ARC, like, Acker, Acker dotbs.it.   The the place is called Acker dotbs, because b s is like the shortened version of, Brisha, of our city. Cool.   Actually, acct.bs   maybe maybe I shouldn't say this because,   some listener will will come in and steal the domain for us. But Aklos BS is a valid,   DNS, like, domain.   It's a Barmas domain, but it costs, like, $500. So we can't afford it right now. So so Someone buy the domain for them, aren't they? Yeah. And and give it to us, please.   So yeah. So so we have the ac.bs.itdomain,   which was much cheaper.  

Yeah. We have a Twitter profile, which is,   ackbs   with the 4,   in place of the Is that a c k? H a c. H a c k. Like, AKR, meaning like, AKR. Oh, AKR. Yeah. It's an AKR space. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's gonna be, well, we want it to be a a Bitcoin, like, physical place. Probably gonna be more of a, cypherpunk.   So we're trying to open it a little bit more,   because it cheat coins? Yeah. Not the cheat coins, obviously.   So it's So, like, the greater open source? But, yeah, a greater open source kind of environment because in in that small town, there are not that many bit Bitcoiners. So if you just open a Bitcoin space, I think what is gonna come? Instead, if we open a space which is more of   a,   basically, where we teach about privacy, about, freedom, about technology, and Kinda like HCPP.  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That is kind of a that's one of the big clothes.   Yeah. That's one of the big inspiration. 3 d printing.   Oh, yeah. And we're gonna like, a lot of,   non software stuff, so I wanna have, like, 3 d printers Yeah. CNC machines. So That's awesome. But also, like, art and things like that. I don't know. I just Yeah. That would be great. Like, we none of us there's only one designer, and we don't have any artist. 2 of them. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things we We're not artists. We have art all over because I just Yeah. Absolutely. You empower the the local artists. Yeah. There's just tell them, we have walls. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we wanna do. Like, apparently, policy is full of awesome art,   because I I think at some point, they they managed to onboard the artists. So I I hope I would wanna be able to do that as well, to onboard people that have more more of an artistic style than us, and then they'll,  

[01:10:16] Unknown:

I don't know, make paintings for us to to to Well, there, you're you're your first thing to go up on the wall, which is, from here in Nashville. The spiral guys took us out, on a little team building exercise. We went shooting,   shooting automatic weapons and handguns Love it. And, sniper rifle. In an old movie theater. In an old movie theater. So anybody in in in Nashville here, I recommend come and checking it out. But they let us keep the target from 1 of the from the sniper rifle stuff. So we've got Yeah. Yeah. That's gonna be the first. For that Yeah. Act IPS. Yeah. Because in Italy, guns are, like  

[01:10:48] Unknown:

I don't know. Like, not even league. Yeah. Maybe for for, like, American people listening to this, they think, oh, like, California, nobody can get a gun. Italy is, like, worse than that. Nobody really is very easy to get a gun in comparison to Italy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like in Europe in general, probably. It's it's like,   nobody's ever seen a gun, basically. Like Yeah. You don't know the Israeli scary. Yeah. Let's hear it. Let me let us know. Glad you got to experience our local pastime.   Yeah. I know. That's that's great. Super fun.   You can you can train us in building Bitcoin wallets, and we'll train you how to use them. Right? Yeah. That's super useful skill. Like, actually, I I mean, it's fun, but it was also interesting for me because I'm like, maybe in the future, I'll I'll need to shoot a gun. So it's Right. It's useful skill to have,   to know to defend yourself and, like, going back to the the Hackerspace. Conversation about yeah. No. Talking about people not taking personal responsibility. That's Yeah. You know, that'll be a thing. Like Yeah. People don't don't have guns because they don't take responsibility for their own life, basically. And you're saying too it's a whole another, technical rabbit hole to fall down to, like, you know, what the how the guns work, how to maintain them. We didn't do that this week, but, you know,  

[01:11:51] Unknown:

it's another another protect people. So Yeah. I didn't know about those other things too. But to the hacker space, I mean, that is awesome. And I love seeing all the different, spaces, physical spaces opening up. And one of the cool things with Bitcoin Park is, like, a lot of people come here and then   and then go back home and then they launch something back home. Like everyone's just like, how do I do this in   in my city? Well, at the scale of Bitcoin Park, you do it by losing a ton of money. Yeah. So I don't suggest that, but start small. Physical spaces are really important, and I'm happy if you guys need any feedback or anything like that. Like, we're happy to help. And and we're already talking about, you know, like, you know, he was like said he was kinda helping us look at the coffee machine yesterday just but technological  

[01:12:31] Unknown:

trading back and forth too. Like, Alakos has a bunch of great ideas and and Danielle, like, great ideas for, like, hackerspace stuff that, hey, you know, maybe that's kind of stuff we wanna do here at the Bitcoin Park and Yes. You know, some of the ways we've got bitcoins, you know, some of the things we've set up here, you know, the art and all those things, it might be taken back home. So, yeah, I feel like here there's not so much of the, practical  

[01:12:50] Unknown:

side, like, of building things. This this is, like, a great office, but you don't have 3 d printers and and stuff like that. Which is something we really wanna have, like, tools and then you can I would love to have 3 d printers here too? Yeah. I mean, so that's, like, you know, all the there's gonna be a lot of cross pollination between all the Yeah. 100%.  

[01:13:06] Unknown:

Oriented,  

[01:13:07] Unknown:

community. And it's very grassroots. It's very like Bitcoin, you know. It's very, it's inherently distributed. It's not like  

[01:13:14] Unknown:

Yeah. One group is doing it. Yeah. Yeah. You go back where you live and then you open 1. I I think for us, yeah, the main inspiration was parallel in Polis because it's super cool. And, again, also, like Well, the same with us here was was parallel in Polis. Yeah. We just made it easier to pronounce.  

[01:13:29] Unknown:

But it worked ways your personal language. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. That but the place is great. So, again, we're gonna be, like, nothing compared to them, but that's, I guess, how you start. There you go. So Gong is up. At some point, we'll be reaching out to get Yeah. I'm seeing a proper place. Like, I'm already so hyped because we've we've done like an Notion page with all the events we want to do and all the projects we want to work on, and there's just so much stuff. We're just like, we're going to have game night and Bitcoin night and film night and movie night where we show, like, The Matrix and other films that might help people to just understand,   the, I don't know, like, sci fi point point point of view. And then we have so many projects we want to work on. Like, I don't know, fridge, which, like, you can be with lightning, and then you you open it and you take, whatever you wanted to buy and stuff like that. Self-service.  

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.  

[01:14:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Because, again, I think the problem for us is gonna be there are not that many Bitcoins. So we have to be open to  

[01:14:23] Unknown:

tech people in general, to to people who who build this and and and But it also will click to them try to It'll click to them if they make their first Bitcoin payment. That that's what people, like Yeah. Actually, just using Bitcoin.   Even if it's the shittiest wallet. Yeah. Buying a beer at your little bar Yeah. With lightning or with Bitcoin. There's so many people that come here. It's their first time ever using Bitcoin. And maybe they've been in the space for, like, 4 years, 3 years, and they just never actually used it to buy something. Yeah. Yeah. That's kinda We have this thing called the Pluscoma with which is an ATM, like a really small one Right. Which accepts coin.  

[01:14:54] Unknown:

So, basically, people just I don't know. They take out their coins from That's great. And they just buy 1 euro. Spare change. You you put it in and you get them you get Sasa Lightning. Then you can buy show them how to, like, set up a wallet to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See Yes. You know, great workshops are thing. And Yeah. And you guys did mention it before, but they do. If anybody wants to support what's going on there in Brescia, it's,   they've got a b b b b b b b b b b b b b Where you can you know, how do we get there? Donation page. Money hack.b Yeah. On the website.  

[01:15:21] Unknown:

And then There should be, like, a donate. Be on the front page, I think, a link to it. Yeah. Yeah. In the menu, I think, above. Check the menu. Website. Oh, we're also on Geyser. How's it called Geyser? Geyser. That's fun. Fun. Yeah. But we don't have our own licensing ID.  

[01:15:35] Unknown:

Yeah. We do have only, see, lightning ID. Address? And sorry? So what are you using, like a lightning address with them? Or I didn't know. They set up something for us, but they take a fee, because we don't have l and d notes, and they just  

[01:15:47] Unknown:

See pay servers best approach. Yeah. That's, like, self hosted. Self hosted. Yeah. I'm looking at it. It looks great. Yeah. €10,000  

[01:15:53] Unknown:

of soft cap goal. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of a random   goal. We don't really have we're gonna open the place anyway. So this is not like we need to reach a goal to open it. We're gonna open it anyway, and,   we're gonna start super small. We're looking right now, we're looking for used furniture. Like, we're looking for desks that we can get it for $20 or something like that. See that it it yeah. If you're gonna buy chairs, we're gonna buy used chairs because I think Yeah. I know. Absolutely.   Yeah. So so the idea is,   we don't have a a specific goal in mind, but whatever we can get, obviously, is gonna go,   towards, yeah, better furniture, better   hardware, 3 d printer, software.  



[01:16:29] Unknown:

Honorary membership. You'll be granted the status of honorary member of our association, and you'll receive a t shirt. Duh. Yeah. I mean, because we provide a valid email. Yeah. Because we have, like, the yeah.  

[01:16:39] Unknown:

Because we have, like, the, how do you say, like, the the tiers? You can you can donate,   I think, like, €50   for the T shirt, then you can write For the stickers? 10 for the stickers, 50 for the T shirt, and 500 for the honorary membership or, like, obviously, if you're an honor honorary member, you'll get the t shirt. You get the you get the stickers too. Right? Yeah. The stickers too. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. We still have to figure out, you know, the design. But the the designer the the 2 designers in in the group, they they they're coming up with really cool ideas. One thing I would say as  

[01:17:10] Unknown:

someone who cofounded OpenSats   where I'm raising donations for other people, not even myself, like, it's a 100% pass, so we take no cut whatsoever,   our 9 person board.   And then, like, still dispatch, which is completely audience funded, donation based, and then Bitcoin Park, which accepts donations,   is   people it's hard to get people to donate to things.   What we did at Bitcoin Park, which is really interesting, is this idea of annual memberships.  

[01:17:40] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. We're gonna have that as well. We're gonna have some kind of membership. Yeah. Concept. People like being   members. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So the donation is gonna be kind of on top for especially That's what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. It's important right now because now we need to buy stuff to to open the place. So it's kind of important right now. Over time, I think we're gonna try to just sustain ourselves. So we are literally, we are non profit. So we're not a business. We're not Because that's awesome. Saves a lot of taxes, mainly.   Yeah. Oh, also speaking of of open source, I think we're gonna sign up there,   because there's there are these, like, bullshit Italian laws that,   they told us we can't get anonymous donations.  

And we can do that for you. To the space. Yeah. Basically, everybody who sends money to the,   legal association, the legal entity of the association needs to be somewhat KYC. Like, need at least kind of an name But not the BTC pay server though? Or You're technically, what I'm doing is I'm personally collecting them, and I'm saying I'll because that's You're dominating.   Yeah. And and then I'll I'll follow them. Well, we're happy to do that for you. But, yeah, eventually, we we wanna have also because we did Just go to opensats.org/apply.  

[01:18:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll apply. The sooner you put the applicant because we we have to you know, there's a process to get you approved and put on the sites. Just get it out there. So just a little plug. So BDK is now an openstack. Yeah. There you go. Thanks very much, Harper, and the whole open stats team that,   you know, for open source projects, we're not lawyers. We're not accountants. You know, to have an organization that's not taking a cut Yeah. That will help Yeah. Run our nonprofit so people in the US can donate. Yeah. You know, tax free.  

[01:19:13] Unknown:

It's it's a huge Yeah. I think we we would be happy to pay for that kind of service. I mean, even if you have free for the because noted. Maybe we'll start charging.  

[01:19:21] Unknown:

Well, that's what other things, like  

[01:19:23] Unknown:

one of the other ones we looked at, like, Open Collective is a similar system. Right. They take 10%  

[01:19:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Donations. So that's, like, sort of the norm. Yeah. HRF takes 5%, which is pretty low, I think. Yeah. That's on the low end, for sure. And that's why when so, I mean, most credit goes to my cofounder, Ben   Price, because when he approached me, I was like, well, we could just do 2 a half percent and just be better than everyone else. He's like, no, man. It has to be a 100%. I was like, okay. This just sounds more difficult, but we'll do it. Which, by the way, you can also donate directly to the Open Sats operations. Yeah. Gotcha. Option too. Yeah. We're working on that.  

[01:19:55] Unknown:

That's, like, our way around. We we, like, realized we need some kind of operations budget. So we have a separate operations budget that people can donate. People that wanna support the groups that open source is supporting also support open SaaS because it's a nonprofit.  

[01:20:08] Unknown:

Is is this recursive supporting? Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:20:12] Unknown:

But, yeah, it's a great   thing. You guys should get on it too.  

[01:20:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, that's that's pretty cool.  

[01:20:21] Unknown:

Awesome.  

[01:20:22] Unknown:

So any other projects? Are there any projects we forgot to talk about that I know There's, working on? Process w I I'm working on. So that. That's a great Okay. So, basically, there's the Bitcoin Cursage w I, which is,   it it means hardware wallet interface   and it's in Python.   So you have this project, you have another wallet, you connect it to your computer. It works on desktop only,   Linux, macOS, and I've been told Windows as well, but I haven't been okay. Cool. Just Python. Like a cross platform. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. You just plug in your other wallet, and then, you have some comments that you can send it to it. Like, hey, please sign this transaction. Hey, please give me your xpub.  

So that's pretty cool, but it's in Python, so we couldn't use it from b b BDK.   So what I've any other Rust program. Yeah. Exactly. What I've been doing,   recently, it's,   I've basically,   using pyo 3, which is a library in Rust, which is kind of like a bridge between Python and Rust.   I've been working this project called Rust hwi, which is just deporting of hwi   to us. It's not complete ras. I'm still calling the Python functions, but at least you do have some,  

[01:21:35] Unknown:

Rust interface. So it's running the Python interpreter within your Rust program and handling all of the the paths and Exactly. Environment. Now what we've been  

[01:21:45] Unknown:

chatting about recently,   mainly, like, in   here at Bitcoin Park is well, everyone loves mobile and h w I doesn't work on mobile. So we're like, okay. Maybe   someone should start some kind of project, kinda like h w I, but in some programming language   that is easy to port to mobile.  

[01:22:07] Unknown:

And, I mean, we're like a Rust geek. We just ton of ideas, but don't have the time Yeah. To do a big project. I mean One of them. But anybody definitely who wants to make a a Rust wallet for desktop, we were talking about desktop wallets, it's ready to go there. Yeah. We've got HTTP y there. I forgot. Is it under magical Bitcoin or is it under Bitcoin. I think it's under Bitcoin. Okay. Yeah. It's under Bitcoin Dev Kits GitHub repo. Yeah. There's also an example on in the repo on how to use it with Right. HWI.  

[01:22:35] Unknown:

So yeah.  

[01:22:36] Unknown:

That's yeah. And and you made that example too. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Basically, she's held your hand on how to use HWI   and   Rust, BK  

[01:22:46] Unknown:

stuff. So So yeah. We should try that. And then maybe, eventually, we'll have a I don't know, BDKs that you are or something.  

[01:22:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I I think my idea is, like, super ambitious. I wanna have this library where you have generic,   transport, like, systems that you can kind of plug in. So the idea is you implement once the logic to talk to a ledger or to a threader or whatever. And then you have you can swap the   the communication layer, basically, because that needs to be implemented. USB, NFCs? Yeah. But not not only USB because USB itself,   if if you wanna be multi platform, you have to use, like, lib USB on Mhmm. On desktop, and then you need to use a different thing on Android. And so so even, like, within   USB, you have sub,   Platform dependent. Yeah. Platform dependent things for Bluetooth as well because you have to hook into the system and   different devices to do it differently. So that's kind of my idea. I think that would be super cool. I don't know if I'll I'll ever gonna work on that.  



[01:23:47] Unknown:

Hey. Yeah. So that's a call out. Anybody else Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This project Putting it out. You wanna see HWI on mobile, you wanna, you know, like, pick out Lacoste's brain and, if he gets started, you go do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great. And also if you're, like, building an actual hardware wallet, please please please just build the simulator as well. Because there are so many other wallets out there, and they're just simulators for what? Ledger, Trezor, and Coolcard.   And, you know, some people might want to try your Android wallet without having to buy it.   And, I mean, devs who won't work with it developers here trying to support your product. Exactly. The tools they need. Exactly. Exactly. So Yeah. Yeah. Please do that.  



[01:24:26] Unknown:

Good call out   there.  

[01:24:28] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:24:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Any other projects that I didn't mention?  

[01:24:33] Unknown:

If if you're a developer and you're listening and you wanna contribute to BDK, what do you what do you do? So we have a discord. Great great call. So if you first, you can start with our website, bitcoin devkit.org.  

[01:24:44] Unknown:

And then from there, there's a link to our Discord.   Depending on your time zone, various of us will be there. We have we have, you know, team members, like I said, in Africa,   Asia,   India Yeah.   Europe,   North America,   I I   Australia.  

[01:25:02] Unknown:

So we've got all the time zones generally covered. Yeah. But so the Discord is a great place to get us live. And then from there, there's also a link to our GitHub. Yeah. So check out the Yeah. I think my dev GitHub. We were chatting about that a couple of days ago. We have many people that, maybe they want to contribute to the main BDK library. But right now, one of the big questions we have is how's our API? Is it is it good? Can you actually use it? So one great way even if it doesn't seem so, one great way of  

[01:25:30] Unknown:

contributing to BDK is actually building on top of BDK. Like, any part of BDK. It could be mobile, it could be desktop, it could be our Python bindings. We haven't Yeah. Used for that yet.  

[01:25:40] Unknown:

Just Yeah. I think feedback would be very helpful because Exactly. Again, with PDK 1.0, we wanna kind of set the API in stone. We don't want to change it anymore. So we we wanna make sure we do it right, basically.  

[01:25:52] Unknown:

Yeah. And the idea with the 1 point o, like, for any software project is it's gonna be something you're gonna support longer term. You know, this is like you're saying this is, you know, this is the the feature set more or less and the API to access it, and we're gonna provide you a longer term support. And that's a big milestone. We're not quite there yet, but we're gonna be there this year, I  

[01:26:10] Unknown:

hope. Yep. Yeah.  

[01:26:15] Unknown:

Awesome. Well,   this has been an absolute pleasure, guys. You for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming to Bitcoin Park and spending time. Thanks. It's been a pleasure.   Fast. Well, before I before we wrap up, I like to I like to end dispatch with final thoughts. So,   let's go let's go around the table and do final thoughts.   I'll start with. Well, we'll end with Steve because he's he's the elder in the room.   Alek, Alek, final thoughts.  

[01:26:42] Unknown:

That that's too open of a question for me.   Yeah. I don't know. I I I really hope   the this kind of thing will will motivate people to   come and and   contribute to BDK.   Yeah. I'm not good at this. I don't know what else to say.   Yeah. Let's see. That's that's my dot it? Fvs. Yeah. Come come to Italy. Come visit our our place.  

[01:27:08] Unknown:

We have some great pizza and   and Donuts, support, visit. We have  

[01:27:12] Unknown:

yeah. We have everything.  

[01:27:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Sorry. That's super random. I'm I'm not good at this. No. You're good. You're good. He's got a huge smile on his face. Yeah. I can tell it comes. He's doing well. Thunderbrisket, final thoughts. Show him how it's done. I think,  

[01:27:26] Unknown:

I think, BDK is, like, the window to all the cool stuff you hear about on on podcast. Yeah. If you're a dev, you've been hearing for years about Taproom, you've been hearing about Meniscal, you've been hearing about but you do Python or you do, you know, you do another language or you do,   or even you do the browser. Right?   This is it. This is your this is your your access to all this cool stuff, like the latest, the greatest,   the cutting edge. It's there. We have it for you. Come and play with it. Awesome. A lot of the Thanks, letting the risk it. Daniela, final thoughts. So, yeah, just please talk like, build a  

[01:28:01] Unknown:

fucking complicated code, but we we do handle it. Okay? So just, I don't know, design some UI for a wallet and just just do it, please,   and share feedback. Don't be shy. Just,   if you're really, really shy, you can also do it anonymously. Just create a Discord account and just, like like, what Thunder Biscuit did, just with a different name, you know. Just don't put your real name and just tell us, what you like and what you don't like because that's super, super useful. Awesome. Thanks, Shane. Misunderstand, but this is my real name. Oh. My mom I was born. Yeah. My mom said biscuit there.  

[01:28:35] Unknown:

Legally born Thunder Biscuits  

[01:28:37] Unknown:

on the on the docs. Steve, final thoughts. Final thoughts. Just I mean, whatever what all these guys said, but, you know, wanna just reiterate that, you know, we   you know, part of this project is we're trying to be open, you know, trying to be we have I I didn't mention earlier that we have also weekly calls. So every other week, we have a dev call where anybody's welcome to join us.   It's on Discord, so you do have to get a Discord account. But, you can just listen in. You can be a fly on the wall, or if you wanna talk to us live in person, it's a great way to find out sort of the current issues we're dealing with,   without having to scroll through all the text messages on GitHub.  

So,   1 week, we do the corelib in Rust, so it's pretty Rust focused. If you're a Rust developer, that's a good one to show up to. If you're interested in the language bindings, mobile development,   ThunderBiscuit runs that meeting on the odd weeks,   and we talk about those issues. That's a great one if if that's your platform of choice.   There's a lot of developers that are not full time on the project. We thank all of you.   All of the full time developers have made big commitments in their lives to work on this. They're very passionate about it and just, you know, appreciate everything they do.   And just   yeah. And thank you for all our supporters. Like, we have a lot of supporters. Spiral's a big supporter. We have,   Brink was a supporter   recently.  



[01:29:52] Unknown:

Kala.  

[01:29:53] Unknown:

Kala is a supporter.   You know, thank all you supporters, and we hope In public car of Kala is amazing. Yeah. So super super just feel privileged to be able to work on a project like this.  

[01:30:04] Unknown:

Well, thank you, guys. I really do appreciate you guys. Thank you for all the work you guys do for Bitcoin. Thank you for joining us, and,   huge shout out to the freaks who joined us in the live chat, who support the show, share with friends and family.   We'll be back tomorrow with another dispatch, this time with the lightning dev kit team.   That'll be 3 hours after this one aired depending on your time zone. So that's,   I think, 4 PM EST.   I hate daylight savings. I think that's,   21100 UTC, but don't hold me to it. But we'll see you then, and, thank you all. Cheers. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Cheers.