Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 0.0.8

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TOPICS: Corporate FOMO. BIPs, and Taproot

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[00:00:01] Unknown:

Think that the US Treasury and the US government is gonna let this thing get out of hand where literally corporates are starting to replace can they do. To a large do at this point. They can regulate the hell out of it. That is what they can do, and and we've already seen that. I mean, we've seen it to some extent. I'm just telling you. I mean, they're gonna let the dollar fall away from being the reserve currency for the world. So right now, we are in a a bit of a euphoric state. I mean, when you think about what are we talking about here? We're talking about Tesla, and we're talking about Bitcoin. These are 2 risk assets that have gained more than a $1,000,000,000,000   combined in, like, the last   6 months, and it's all based on hopium. And I don't mean to hate on all of this. All these people who are making a ton of money on both of these things, just understand that there's gotta be some sort of gravity that takes hold at some point. And the 2 of them combined   make for, I think, a really difficult situation if they both start going down together. And the ripple effects that we will see across currency markets, financial markets, and the such could be really great. No one is talking about it right now. There are no more naysayers in Bitcoin. So I would just say to you, have at it at 45,000   because you've taken out everybody  

[00:01:10] Unknown:

who thinks it's a scam. Yeah. It is approaching 45,000,   as we speak.  

[00:01:54] Unknown:

Holy shit, freaks. What a fucking week it has been.   That was Dan Nathan   on CNBC.   I guess he's the founder of some company called Risk Reversal   Advisors,   in absolute denial over what has happened this week.   It appears that there's a whole lot of a lot of salty people that are in absolute denial right now, including   much of financial media.   It's absolutely   insane to see play out.   This is Citadel Dispatch   episode 8.   I'm your host, Matt O'Dell,   the live show   about Bitcoin distributed systems,   open source, and privacy.   Thank you for joining us for another week.  

We're gonna have a really fun Bitcoin Tuesday.   I got my good friends,   future Paul and NVK here to join us. NVK was with us on the first episode. You may know him as the cofounder of Koincite.   Me and Paul have become close friends over the last year.   Probably most famous for being a cofounder of The Verge, and he was on The Verge cast for a long time.   One of my favorite non Bitcoin shows.   So what's up, guys?   How are you feeling over there?  

[00:03:11] Unknown:

Go ahead, Paul. It's your first time.  

[00:03:13] Unknown:

I feel I feel great. Did you notice he said ripple effects? You think he's he's long   XRP?  

[00:03:20] Unknown:

Oh, Matt has always been a shield for XRP shield. He's army.  

[00:03:25] Unknown:

I'm just gonna have to end the episode early.  

[00:03:29] Unknown:

Go dump, man. Go dump. I'm stoked to be here. Although, it really is we're getting to the point where it all time highs only, like, count in, like, 10 k increments pretty soon. You   know? Like, a one k all time high is not that big of a deal. So, I mean, let's talk about that for a second. I mean,  

[00:03:46] Unknown:

yesterday, we had a $9,000   daily candle.   Ew. It's a good idea. In in March   in March, the price was, like, $37100.   Right? So,   I I feel like people do not really realize the gravity of what the fuck is going on right now.   I've  

[00:04:08] Unknown:

like, we're about to just have our faces ripped off. Right? They they they won't see it. Like I said, there's a there's a fucking tsunami of money coming.   Like   the amount of like private messages I've been getting from people that work at   at, like, big organizations   and they're all looking into it.   I don't think people comprehend   the amount of money that's coming. It's like retail   essentially just became irrelevant. Right? Like, it it doesn't matter how much coins retail buy now. They they won't make any difference in the price anymore.   That that's how much money is coming in now.  



[00:04:48] Unknown:

Do we even know the timeline of the Tesla buy? Like, how long did they do that over? Because that I mean.  

[00:04:55] Unknown:

So there was a Redditor that posted about I think it was, like, about a month ago,   that Tesla   was buying something like 800,000,000   dollars worth of Bitcoin.   You know, it was not taking serious. Right?   But, hey. You know? It turned out that they did. But but, again, I I don't know.   I've researched the info on Tesla. There is no info.   So, for for for all I know,   they bought something like GBTC or they bought a position on somebody else's   stash,   and that's why they didn't release any information. Right?   So it's like it's $1,000,000,000   of   of news.  

There is there is no BTC   so far to be accounted for. I mean, there could be and they don't wanna talk about it,   but so far there is no info. So I can't list them because   if it is GBTC, it would be double counted.  

[00:05:52] Unknown:

Right. So so to the listeners out there that aren't aware,   in,   Rodolfo's free time when he's not,   you know, running, the leading hardware wallet manufacturer or shitposting on Twitter. He's also running a website called bitcointreasuries.org,   that lists how much Bitcoin these publicly traded companies are holding because,   per SEC filings, they have to report how much they have, I believe.   I think this filing, maybe they didn't have to. Right? It's, like, 10 k or something, and they're going to have to at some point in the future.  

[00:06:27] Unknown:

Yeah. But I found it fishy because,   see,   you would be,   again, if their if their if their strategy   was to to essentially   take,   take on micro strategy or sort of, like, beyond the news for Bitcoin holding,   they would have just used the   this the because really, you you only get the PR cycle in a large scale for these companies, like, in the first one. Right?   So it would have been in their interest to do that. I think they didn't because   it would have been a bit of a flop when they would say that's just a stake on somebody else's Huddl.  

[00:07:11] Unknown:

I mean,   I just   I mean, before I go any further, before I forget, I just wanted to say about Dan Nathan. I mean, that clip that that we played for you in the beginning of this of this episode, the show,   I mean, he literally he was scared. It was like he's like, companies are just gonna switch to holding Bitcoin.   Why would they hold the US dollar? And that's just amazing to me. It's like, even the haters this is one of the things I really always loved about,   our favorite congressman,   Brad Sherman. Is, like, even the haters realize that Bitcoin is designed   to just eat the world, and the only way they can fathom stopping it is if if they basically ban people's ability to use it. Like, try and they're gonna actively try and stop it. Otherwise,   why would you ever hold the US dollar on your balance sheet? That's ridiculous. The thing is just designed to dump forever.  



[00:08:01] Unknown:

I mean, it is the best   of the Fiat shitcoins. Right?   What? The US dollar? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the least worst Fiat shitcoin. I mean, at least you guys are not stuck with Canadian Bezos like I am.  

[00:08:16] Unknown:

Well, it is starting I mean, the more I have learned about this over time of of getting immersed in the Bitcoin, it kinda starts to look like it's the United States only export.   Like, all we make is this dollar that has   some level of,   price stability.   And it and it's just it's just the bottom is falling out, and  

[00:08:40] Unknown:

everybody loves it. Yeah. It's a fantastic product. I mean, listen.   If I if I I'm Canadian, and I hold USD.   So so, like,   I mean How do you how do you hold USD? Oh, in Canada, we can have USD denominated bank accounts. So I have both CAD and USD.  

[00:08:57] Unknown:

It's like a button you push?  

[00:09:00] Unknown:

Kind of. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's the Internet of shit for banks. Yeah. I mean, it's like,   you know, you just you you log in to your account and and you can deposit, like, it's actually a USD account. It's not like it's like they they hold USDs. I mean, Canadian dollar is, like, essentially a basket of USD   plus a few other   stupid things.   There isn't much more to it at the end of the day. So Canadian Central Banks holds a fuck ton of USD.   So it's not too hard for them to make   use of the denominated,  

[00:09:32] Unknown:

bank accounts here. Well, I mean, the the the cat is fucked first. Right? The Canadian rupees or whatever?  

[00:09:38] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's complicated   because,   see, Canada has a fuck that on natural resources and a bunch of other shit that if they got their shit together,   they could pump. Right? So much so that, say,   about 20 years ago, it was 1 to 1. Right? The USD.   So   the the the issue here is   that they don't, and they wanna play the printing game too. But now the printing you can't do printing on top of printing. Right? It's kinda like doing averages on top of averages. You know you don't do that.   So,   so now we're playing a game that we can't win anymore in Canada. And,  

[00:10:16] Unknown:

yeah. I mean, Canadian dollars go to shit. I mean, who the fuck would hold them?   I mean, you have you have to buy to pay taxes. Right? I mean, yeah. You hold the minimum. You hold the bare minimum. Right?  

[00:10:28] Unknown:

Wow.   But also the the banks bone you when you try to exchange, right, between the so,   you know, yes. You can do if you do a little large volume of USD, you can you can have a proper effects account. Right? Even if your own, like, version of it. Even talking about that. Right? Like, who  

[00:10:46] Unknown:

like,   the there's there's this domino effect that's happening.   And I think even,   you know, I I I'm overwhelmed with this this feeling that I feel like everything that needs to be said has been said.   Like, I don't like, now we just watch it play out. We just watch everything play out like we thought it was gonna fucking play out.   And   in some ways, it's happening   at the speed that I expected, but in some ways, it's   blowing, you know, blowing it away. Like, I if   I think Elon has a bag. I thought Elon had a bag. Right? But for for Tesla to come out of the gun so quickly with such a large purchase,   1 and a half $1,000,000,000   they put into Bitcoin,   is   just I I he can I was completely caught caught off guard? I was completely caught off guard, and I feel like I thought they were gonna be one of the later companies. I thought they were gonna do it, but I thought there's gonna be a bunch of smaller companies that were a little bit more nimble,   you know, stuff like MicroStrategy where you have a CEO who has a lot of control,   and I thought the the bigger companies would happen later. But now we just, like, jumped the gun,   and it's, like, you hear rumors and stuff. Is Apple gonna do it next? Is Oracle gonna do it next? And it's just, like, are these guy there's there's, like, 2 sets of boardrooms   in America right now, globally. Right? There's the boardroom who's just, like, completely in denial that's, like, this is Beanie Babies,   and then there's the boardrooms that are just, like, scrambling. They're just scrambling to get as much Bitcoin as they possibly can as soon as they fucking can.  

And we're just gonna start seeing, like, $10,000   daily candles, like, that's fucking crazy.  

[00:12:25] Unknown:

Well, I mean, as soon as as soon as we cross 100,   things get more interesting.   And then, I I mean, like,   all the money's coming.   Right? And half of the world out there have no clue what's going on in the world.   So the the way I see it is things really get interesting once we start, like, getting to half or   all the market cap of gold.   That that's that's when shit really hits the fan.  

[00:12:53] Unknown:

Oh, we have CryptoClidesdale   just commented,   through through our, Twitch account, Citadel Dispatch on Twitch.   Welcome. I think more people should use the Twitch stream because Twitch doesn't,   fuck me on my outro outro music. So,   consider it as an alternative to YouTube if you're currently using YouTube.  

[00:13:14] Unknown:

Twitch has the best chat.  

[00:13:16] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly.   I would I would love if more of the audience started using Twitch, even though it's still owned by one of the evil empires.  

[00:13:24] Unknown:

I will say there is something that is slightly less respect like, as big of a deal as Tesla obviously is. It is slightly less respectable than Apple just because of Elon Musk. So, like, there is still, like, a whole another   level up to do once, like, Apple or, like, one, like, the the FAANG stocks or whatever. Oh, for sure. Once they get into it, then it's just like it's it becomes, like, the boring thing to do. So was that a pun?  

[00:13:55] Unknown:

No.   No. I mean, it's pretty he's the best richest man in the world ever, you know. He's he's got like a professional troll. Like someone said, what I thought was, like, a pretty decent take,   was,   was, like, if if Elon there was nothing Elon could do to piss off the Elon haters   more   than buying Bitcoin.  

[00:14:17] Unknown:

Oh, it's worth 1 the ultimate the ultimate troll move. Yeah. It's worth one bill right there just just for the shits and giggles. Right? I mean, it's only 4% of Tesla anyways.   And and, like, Bitcoin is what? 7% of the gold supply? So the gold market cap.   You know, we we only have, like, essentially,   what is it? 13 x to go? 13 x to go. That's it.   We we own them.  

[00:14:46] Unknown:

I'm curious.   So so   so Rodolfo's been been around Bitcoin for a bit now,   as have I.   Paul is is a relatively new coiner compared to us.   This is its first real, you know, bull cycle,   after being in a bear.   And I'm curious, like, where where's your head at right now, Paul? Like, what what is your when you woke up in the morning, like like, what were you thinking?  

[00:15:16] Unknown:

It's   I I like I look at the price like   fuck. I used to look at the price a lot more when it was down.   And   up, it's like it's like a solved problem. You know? It's like, well, they won, so I don't need to, like, it I don't need to worry in my head about it because   Bitcoin   won. You know? That's how I feel about it right now. It it it does feel novel. I mean, people people   came out of the woodwork   talking to me   after, like, the all time high. Because, like, I yeah. I've been a bit into Bitcoin ever since it was, like, just right after the 2017 run up.   So I was I've been wrong about Bitcoin in a sense for this whole time because I'd never hit the all time high. And so after it hit the all time high, people are like, oh, hey. But I don't even know how to feel. I I   it's like I it's it's it's affirming, but,   it doesn't the the number actually doesn't help me at all, if that makes sense. I don't know I don't know why, But it doesn't do anything for me, I guess, because it's like, it's not,   it's not my money to spend   until,   you know,   50 years from now or, you know,   until until hyperbitcoinization,   basically. I don't think of it as my money. So all the numbers in between are just kind of like a a narrative I get to watch, but they don't they don't have a lot of impact on my daily life. What about the FOMO, Paul? You you just experienced  

[00:16:44] Unknown:

what what they used to call savings.   I know it sounds insane,   but let me just explain this concept that humanity has had for most of it up until the MMT people came about.   So   somebody goes and works, does something. Right? It receives some money for   it or trades. Right? What they do is they go and they put it under their mattress.   And then when they get old or they need to buy a house or somebody gets sick, they go and they take some of it and they use it.   And ideally   whatever is under the mattress is worth more   by the time they use it than when they acquired it.  

It's incredible. It's called savings technology.  

[00:17:30] Unknown:

Right. And, like, all those   you all those time slices in between when you put it under your mattress and when you spend it,   you could pay as much or as little attention   to it as you want to, but it doesn't really change that much. That that's the thing. Right? That Bitcoin changed everything because,  

[00:17:48] Unknown:

see, before,   in the last, say, 15 50 to a 100 years, right, like,   if you wanted to to have any reasonable appreciation   on your savings, you had to understand investing.   Right?   And if you are a retail investor, you're a sucker.   Right? You barely make   against real inflation or asset inflation. Right? Sure. You know, there's the bullshit ship,   CPI sort of number. That doesn't really exist.   So this guy is so you go to your banker or whatever and you say, hey. You know, like, you know, they'll put your your money on a mutual fund or something and then hopefully you beat inflation.   Right?  

So what what you do is you go and you read. You read all the stupid books on how to invest. Right? And then you you essentially stock pick,   and you have a few and and, you know, like, some people do okay, some people get wrecked.   And and this has been the concept of savings now for for a good 20, 30 years.   It's insanity.   You're supposed to just receive the money, put it in an account.   Right? And then don't look at it. You're not supposed to understand. You're not you're supposed to focus on, like, I don't know, you're a watchmaker. Go make watches. Right? Not don't learn about investing.  

[00:19:03] Unknown:

Well, that's why I couldn't get stoked. I it was really fun to watch the whole GameStop thing, but I couldn't, like, I wasn't gonna go buy a sliver of a stonk or whatever. Like, because then I'd have to sit there and think about when I wanna get out. You know?  

[00:19:19] Unknown:

Exactly. And I don't want I don't wanna sit there. I don't wanna sit there. You're not supposed to get out. That's what people didn't point. That's what people didn't realize. Like, there's  

[00:19:27] Unknown:

an and   and I guess part of the reason I'm overwhelmed is because it feels like the 2017   level of bad takes and shitcoiners   and charlatans and shit have just amplified even more,   since 2017.   But there were so many bad takes about how, like, DeFi fixes that and and Ethereum DeFi in quotes.   And that's not the that that you're you're thinking in the wrong in the wrong paradigm. Right? Like, what fixes it is having a good money that you can hold that increases in purchasing power over time so you don't have to gamble on this bullshit casino.  

[00:20:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, defi means definancing   suckers. Right? Like, I mean, seriously, like, smart people that I know that are into this stuff make a fucking killer.   When there is smart people making a fucking killer, it means that there is another end of a bunch of suckers losing a fucking much.   It's it's amazing to me that people don't see that.   Okay. So With Bitcoin, like, nobody's losing on the Bitcoin trade here. Right? Like, you're buying, you're holding. It's not like there is some other person who's like, you're the fish. No. Like, it's just everybody's winning here.  

[00:20:34] Unknown:

So so speaking of smart people, I really like to take people at face value. And Elon right now looks like a very smart person for buying   $1,500,000,000   of of Bitcoin, and we know that's smart.   But also,   you know, I follow a lot of   Bitcoiners that I really respect, and none of them shell Dogecoin.   So, like, there is something that's really either,   dumb or obviously it's trolling   or,   nefarious   or I don't know what. But the the the Dogecoin   Dogecoin shill is,   it makes him look stupid to me a little bit. You know? He was he was fucking with the SEC,  

[00:21:17] Unknown:

and  

[00:21:18] Unknown:

and he doesn't care about the plebs in the process. Trolling. I mean, like Yeah. Like, Doji is fun. Was fun.   I mean, one of my favorite memes is, you know, such this much wow kinda thing. Right? Mhmm. Like,   it's like it is fun.   You know, and and and if you're, like, a billionaire   putting trying to take people to Mars and and making a bunch of other stuff, like taking money from government to to, like, make cars.   I mean, what else you're gonna do with your day? You're gonna shitpost. Right? Like and and shitposting   with, like,   a coin, a shitcoin that has a dog   as the face of it. It's, like,  

[00:22:00] Unknown:

fantastic. I mean, like, it doesn't get better than that. Well, especially since we're talking about polls. But, again, I nobody I respect in Bitcoin does that. We're talking about a guy I think that you talking about a guy who got got,   you know, handcuffed by the SEC a bit over over earlier statements on Twitter, right, because of securities violations. So the fact that he he and I I I said this as a bullish case for Bitcoin in general just because Bitcoin's not a security, these guys are gonna start realizing they can pump it themselves. You know, he changed his bio and it it pumped it pumped $7,000.  

[00:22:33] Unknown:

This is right  

[00:22:35] Unknown:

now? It's the same case with Dogecoin   even though that it you know, securities laws are ridiculous, like, that's just a ridiculous concept. But for whatever reason, Dogecoin doesn't fall under them.   So he's able to do that without,   specifically   without   he if he talked about Bitcoin too much, it could have been   a securities violation in that Bitcoin is not a security, but Tesla is, and and he hadn't disclosed yet that Tesla was purchasing Bitcoin.   And then the other question so so the most important thing is he can fuck himself for the Doge shit. It was probably it's mostly seems like a troll, but he can fuck himself. No one should buy Doge. A lot of   it's it's it's not a threat to Bitcoin, but it's a threat to to retail that that gets burned along the way, buys the top.  



[00:23:20] Unknown:

We saw the same stuff with the GameStop stuff. Or it's like that light the the the who'samacallit? That guy,   the Litecoin guy, like Well, Charlie Lee can go fuck himself. Like, ordering what was there's a video of him, like, ordering some food from, like, somebody working behind the counter who bought who bought Litecoin. You know? Oh, that other guy, Charlie Lee. Yeah.  

[00:23:41] Unknown:

The the like the Litecoin promoter, the the brand and Litecoin promoter guy. Litecoin is complicated because Litecoin was actually useful way back in the day. It was nice to have a secondary chain that was that had some reasonable   sort of protection on it.   It was not a pre mine.   You know, like, he helped to the Segwit   stuff because he was able to prove that, you know, Segwit is not broken. So, you know, it it is a shitcoin. It has no purpose now. Right? But it is different. Right? It's not like Ethereum, like, used to have essentially bake sales in Toronto,   where they would do these events   and try to sell like, it was exactly time share.  

They would try to to deal with the presentation, and they'll say how they are changing the world.   And then they will say, hey.   Buy some Ethereum. Give me your Bitcoin. Right? And they raised they raised, I don't know how much for it, like, 30 or $60,000,000   or something at that time in Bitcoin.   And   and everybody who got founder shares of Ethereum got, like, ridiculously   rich,   with those, and and they dumped it on retail.   So,   so yeah. You know, it's a pre mine and all that stuff. So I I think there is there is a difference there. What I think and I think it's worth sort of bringing that out that that up. Like, there's it's like a it's a premise criminal.  

[00:25:05] Unknown:

Okay. The the criminal part of Litecoin was that Charlie Lee was the CTO of fucking Coinbase.   He pumped the shit out of it on Twitter on the expectation that he was gonna get it listed. He got it listed. He continued to pump it and then sold the top   and, you know, and and and and knew what he was doing the whole fucking time.   I'll I'll give Elon a little bit of a break in that I don't think anyone seriously believes that he profited off of the Doge pump Doge pump and dump. Like, I don't think he actually bought any Doge and sold any Doge.   What is it like? What's the market cap of Doge right now? And and the the really fucked up part about the Doge thing is is something similar to what we saw with IOTA in the last cycle is that the chain is so dysfunctional   that it leads to these pumps because   because   you can't actually like, if you're holding self custody, it's really hard to send to an exchange because the chain isn't working.  

And and what we see is we see a lot of these people that are trading these shitcoins,   in these dramatic pumps. They never withdraw, so they don't even know that the that the chain isn't working,   which is why I I always ask I behoove people to to if you're going to gamble on these shitcoins, I want you to be a proper shitcorner. I want you to withdraw and secure your keys and and use your own note.  

[00:26:18] Unknown:

Holy shit, man. It like, Dogecoin is $9,000,000,000   market cap now. Dang.   I thought it was, like, $9,000,000.  

[00:26:26] Unknown:

No. It's it's it's,   like, it's in the top 10 now. And it's fucking trade on Robinhood. And the one good thing about it, I'll tell you the the best part about it is that Jackson Palmer, the founder of Dogecoin,   created Doge because he hated Bitcoin Yeah. And he hates money so much,   that he actually   divested all of his own he sold all of his Dogecoin and rage quit Dogecoin,   and it just keeps pumping. So the fact it's the own it's the one of the only coins that the founder hasn't made money and is actively salty about it. Like, every time it pumps, like, this guy wakes up in the morning, he's like, wow. You know, I made an even worse   a a worse thing that's that's hurting retail than than ever Bitcoin was.  



[00:27:09] Unknown:

So something else that's been this is kind of a tangent, but something else has been bugging me about, the Elon Bitcoin thing is that Bitcoin is not going to be Mars money.   I think this is was clearly demonstrated   in the   Bitcoin   astronomy.   Well, do you guys remember this? This is in 2019   by This is the roof of unchained capital. Right? Yeah. On unchained capital. Well, basically, he's got this first law of Bitcoin astronomy,   the law of hash horizons.   Given constant hash rate as a miner moves away from the center of hash of a blockchain, the number of blocks won by that miner statistically trends to 0. So when Elon goes to Mars,   he's obviously gonna just have way less energy production there than we have on Earth. So he's not gonna be competitive, hash rate wise anyways. He doesn't want to be the opposite. No. No. It's the opposite. So so Mars actually has, like, low like, almost no atmosphere  

[00:28:09] Unknown:

and is closer to the sun. So you get way more,   power out of solar there. So,   theoretically,   you could, like, make a ton of power there, but let me just put it out there. This is all just, like, you know, intellectual masturbation.   The key here is that by then, we're gonna probably have,   like, small power reactor,   nuclear reactors that they would be way more efficient than solar anyways.   So, so it's kind of like a wash maybe.  

[00:28:41] Unknown:

I mean and this is just mining anyway. Like,   if they could easily use, like, lightning or something. No. So so it's tricky. Right? Because so  

[00:28:51] Unknown:

the the time of radio communication to Mars, if I remember right, is about 7 minutes.   So   you you you you can't broadcast   a block fast enough   to the other planet. So whichever planet has the longest chain and the and the and the long and the the most amount of hash power essentially becomes the main chain.   It's gonna be and and it's very easy to diverge, but somebody brought up a good, good idea about you can have a side chain.   You can have a mine   a a a a Mars side chain and find consensus that way. 62 brought that up. It was a heat then there you go. Also also  

[00:29:30] Unknown:

shout out to all the freaks. Mars is not Mars is not closer to the sun  

[00:29:34] Unknown:

than Earth. No. It's after.  

[00:29:38] Unknown:

But it does have less atmosphere. Wait. Yes. It does. Right? No. Wait. Shit. I look. I don't think Mars are gonna Martians are gonna be shit corners. They're gonna figure out how to use the best money that humanity's ever had,   and, you know, we don't need to we don't need to solve it for them right now.   I just to bring it back here, I mean,   do   do are we all in consensus that Elon front ran his own company and has a has his own personal stash of Bitcoin?   Yeah. I mean, I dude, they have had a Bitcoin ATM in their factory there for Well, it's not a real it's a fake ATM. Really? It's so Liberty x Liberty x,   made it so that any ATM provider, like, traditional ATM provider can also add a Bitcoin option to their regular ATM. So it's one of those.  

So there was, like, a regular third party ATM provider in his in his,   super factory or gigafactory, whatever he calls it, and then and then that that   operator  

[00:30:37] Unknown:

updated the firmware to add Liberty x support. I see. Anyways, I I doubt that there is any   technically   like,   a technical guy who's sort of, like, more on the libertarian side out there who doesn't have Bitcoin   out of these sort of, like,   big time people.   I'd be very surprised if they don't have some personal stash. So, I mean, all these guys are gonna front run their own companies. Oh, yeah. I mean, but these guys don't need money. Right? Like, they're doing probably just for the shits and giggles. No. They like like like being rich has ever stopped a rich person from wanting to accumulate more money. But it's it's different though. Like,   I I can't imagine, like, Elon waking up in the morning and looking at his Bitcoin huddle and saying, hey. I just made an extra 20%   on my on my stash,   like most of the freaks would.  



[00:31:35] Unknown:

It's just   it's it's guaranteed money.  

[00:31:39] Unknown:

I I think it's guaranteed freedom.  

[00:31:42] Unknown:

I just think he's still engaging with it at a really surface level, and this is all because of the Doge the Doge tweets that really threw me off.  

[00:31:50] Unknown:

I don't know. I think I think Doge is more of a signaling mechanism that you're more aware of the   you know, he's not talking about DeFi or any of he's he's not saying crypto or blockchain.   Right? Like, when someone says crypto or blockchain, it's a signaling mechanism to me that they're just completely missing the plot.   A doge meme has a doge meme is like something like, you know, someone who's been in the space for a while thinks doge is still hysterical.  

[00:32:13] Unknown:

Here here's the test. I have a good test. Can somebody try to find out from Elon if he knows about barbecue coin?   If he knows about barbecue coin, he's definitely OG and has some Bitcoin.  

[00:32:29] Unknown:

I'm just googling barbecue  

[00:32:31] Unknown:

coin real quick. It's bbq coin. Mhmm.  

[00:32:36] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like it's it's right from the early days of everybody just forking core,   changing some values,   and,  

[00:32:43] Unknown:

launching their own fork. My point is if you're a CEO of a public company, you buy Bitcoin ahead of time.   You buy Bitcoin ahead of time, then you announce your company is moving some of their treasury reserves into Bitcoin on that side. Illegal. That's that's totally illegal. You can't do that.  

[00:32:58] Unknown:

That's what they do. Risk it. That's what Sailor did.  

[00:33:02] Unknown:

No. He didn't Sailor front ran his own company. Yeah. He admitted to front running his own company. He told yeah. He disclosed to the board that he did, and then he did it anyway.   Yeah. There there must be, like, some caveat there. Do you call them no. Because it's not a security. It's like it's like, it's a loophole it's a loophole in their bullshit system. Like, it it'd be like if a company  

[00:33:23] Unknown:

put gold on their balance sheet and see those losses. Exist anyways. I feel like somebody during the the the   the Bitcoin for Corporation seminar or whatever it was called, I feel like they some of the accounting people were talking about, like   like, phases where sometimes they're, like, frozen where they they their employees can't buy, and then they, like, unlocked and then they can buy. I don't quite understand. It it gets tricky. I'm certain that that, like, he checked to his lawyer.  

[00:33:52] Unknown:

Because no. Like, I mean, seriously, especially if you're a US resident. Right? I mean, like,   you you you don't wanna fuck with the SEC. So,   I'm certain that he checked with his lawyer on the right way of doing that. There might be a period. You know, who knows? Maybe, like, 30 days or whatever. People don't realize it's completely legal. Yeah. It's a game.   Everybody   does insider trading. There is no other kind of trading. Insider trading because Bitcoin is not a security. No. I understand. But what I'm just saying is, like,   all the security stuff is bullshit. Should all just be a free for all. Fuck all this stuff. I agree. I 100% agree. But, you know,  

[00:34:30] Unknown:

it's also fucking hysterical   that   that this, like, loophole exists, and it's it exists in a way that's gonna end up,   you know, defanging everything that they've that they have built in terms of regulatory framework. I love the fact that he keeps on repeating now on every appearance  

[00:34:49] Unknown:

that Bitcoin is not gonna replace the dollar.   He totally clued in.   That is the best   strategy   to not have the US government go out. Yes.  

[00:35:00] Unknown:

It's brilliant. Do you think he doesn't believe that. Right?  

[00:35:03] Unknown:

Of course not.   Like, there's no reason to hold dollars all the time at the end of the day. The guy is literally doing a speculative attack on the dollar.   Like, come on, dude. I mean, seriously. Right? How are you gonna buy coffee?   Yeah. Exactly. But but, you know, it's quite brilliant. Right? Like, because   you you don't want to bring because, you know, like, inside,   like, this this this agencies of the government, there is smart people,   but there is also a ton of fucking dumb people, and there is a lot of thumb, dumb middle management who actually makes the decision what to go after. Right?   And I'm sure   the small,   smart minority of these people have been sort of telling their bosses, dude, this Bitcoin thing is a big deal. We need to go after it. Right? But, you know, all these big bosses probably say, no. No. It's not gonna go anywhere. Look. Michael Saylor is saying on TV. It's not going after the dollar.  

Holy shit. 49.  

[00:36:02] Unknown:

Well, so 49 is the the bottom price to those watching the stream is the the bisque price.   Oh, okay. The real price. Yeah. The real price, and the top one is the evil empire. It's Coinbase pro. Yeah. I use,  

[00:36:14] Unknown:

the the bull Bitcoin   sell price   is a good, is a good, reference for Canadians   on what the Bitcoin is actually worth   in Canada.  

[00:36:26] Unknown:

It's 60 right now. I get I mean, when you put it that way, like, that's pretty clear. Right? Like, he's speculative attacking the dollar, and he's like, oh, but we're not a not the dollar isn't under attack.  

[00:36:36] Unknown:

And then everybody's like, oh, no. Look. The the Wall Street people, they're not legit. They don't deserve to own Bitcoin,  

[00:36:44] Unknown:

and and these are end caps. Jesus Christ. It reminds me of Putin's strategy. Like, you figured out he figured out this is like the whole world, like,   with the whole Crimea thing. Like, when he he just he just took their emblem off of the army.   And and that was, like, enough denial for, like, the overwhelming majority of sheep were, like, oh, well, you know, Putin says those aren't his troops, So I we're just gonna have to believe them.  

[00:37:08] Unknown:

I mean, to be fair, after reading a little bit more history, the Crimea stuff now makes more sense. I mean, like, Russia does have some claims. Oh, a 100%, but, like, those weren't their troops.  

[00:37:19] Unknown:

Exactly.   Yeah. I mean, that's pretty so I I think I think people so so do I kinda go back a little bit, Paul. I mean, you seem to be, like, numb with the price movements,   which I think   me and Rodolfo could attest to as well.   But but, k, you wanna talk to the audience a little bit about the FOMO you feel every morning?  

[00:37:43] Unknown:

Well, I don't have enough Bitcoin.  

[00:37:47] Unknown:

That's how everybody feels.  

[00:37:48] Unknown:

And,   it makes me wanna be better at my job so I can earn more money so I could buy more Bitcoin   or find another job so I could buy more Bitcoin or, you know, it makes me think about how do I get more Bitcoin a lot.   But, yeah, that's about it.  

[00:38:05] Unknown:

Oh, 6102   got it there in all caps. Plausible deniability works. Caps or Dell. Oh, by the way, freaks,  

[00:38:13] Unknown:

I hope you appreciated that this,   this stream went out on Twitter in all caps.  

[00:38:18] Unknown:

It's very intense.  

[00:38:19] Unknown:

I feel like it's now.   I you know what you know what it is? It's like I'm overwhelmed right now  

[00:38:27] Unknown:

with this I guess, Spot is not legal there. Right? I just feel like no one is listening.  

[00:38:32] Unknown:

You you know? Like like people don't even the people that realize, even the freaks that have been, you know,   with me week after week for the last two and a half years,   Like, none of us are ready. We cannot fathom   where we're about to go. Like, I have a tweet from November where I'm like,   I   am probably more ready than 99%   of of people about what comes next. And I wish I had more but I still wish I had more time, to be honest. And   I feel like   looking back on that, like, I still was not ready for what came next. Like, I was still caught the fuck off guard. I still,   you know,   was just did not appreciate the scale that was gonna happen and the speed that was gonna happen.  

And I just kinda was like,   you know, maybe if Caps O'Dell was around in November, we would have paid more attention.  

[00:39:26] Unknown:

Dude, I can't fucking wait.   I can't wait   for the 250   crash 250.   Oh, it's gonna be glorious.   I mean,   it's like there's nothing more fun in Bitcoin than seeing the price crash.   It's like it's kinda sucks in a way, but it sucks awesome. It's like sitting in a blind in the winter waiting for a game to pass by. It's like it's cold.   It's painful,   but fuck, it's fun.   You know, you see all the talkers,   all that stuff all disappear,   and then it's just like   silence.   Everybody can focus,   everybody already made a bit of money,   you know, it's just so good. When the price is pumping and just starting to pump right now. Right? I mean, we're gonna just beginning. I know. Exactly. It's like   the kind of money that's coming in now,   you know, we might get $2,000,000   by the end of the year. Kind of some parity.  

You know, it's not impossible.   Let's put it this way.   I still remember when, like, people used to say that, like, $1,000  

[00:40:32] Unknown:

is moon price. Oh my god.  

[00:40:34] Unknown:

Moon. People used to say that?  

[00:40:37] Unknown:

Yeah, man. A $1,000  

[00:40:39] Unknown:

price moon. When I got in when I got in, I thought 10,010,000   was my moon.  

[00:40:44] Unknown:

Wow.   Yeah. I know. It's like And I I, like, laughed at myself a little bit. I was like, you know, that'd be great, but I I I'd also be happy with, you know, half of it. I think, like and I've been saying, like, Bitcoin is an experiment that can go away tomorrow up until, say, around, like, 5, $10,000.   I'm like, there's still a chance that this should be changed. That's not the case anymore. No. It's because now we have inertia. Right? There's Lindy. Like, it's very hard to kill this thing now. Like, even even, like, even if the whole sort   of even the whole network now makes stupid decisions.  

Right?   Say you make the block bigger or something like that. There is so much inertia now that even with   a a less optimal,   protocol, a less optimal,   money,   it still   probably wins.   That's how much inertia there is now in Bitcoin.   Right? Like,   it's just so much that, like,   governments clued in that they clued in late. So now they just sort of, like, probably trying to figure out how they capture   the capturable and how they capture some of the upside as well. Right? They they they there is no government talking about banning Bitcoin anymore. Have you heard of any?  

[00:41:59] Unknown:

In India, literally. Okay. But you just say all kinds of shit on TV. Right? I mean, like I mean, I'm fine with it. I expect them to. They're they're borderline authoritarian over there. You know, they did the whole KYC with the cash. Yeah.  

[00:42:12] Unknown:

Go ahead. It's so cool that,   banning Bitcoin is like a total admission that your money is a shit coin. That's the cool part. Could you could pretend that you have a good money until you have to ban a competitor.  

[00:42:26] Unknown:

Yeah. Then you're anti choice. Then you're anti freedom.  

[00:42:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Because, like, Bitcoin, it's just it's just this little thing. You we just made this thing with some computers, you know. We're just playing around with some cryptography   and and and got some raspberry pies and stuff. There's nothing there's nothing going on here, but it is not money. It's not it's not it's not USD.  

[00:42:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I I mean, it   it's so easy for me to see Bitcoin as a as, like, a a thing that works, already works? Because, like, I grew up in Brazil. Right?   And, you know, we had, like,   10 fucking no. Actually, no. My my generation had 3 or 4 failed currencies   and a a bail in haircut.   Right?   It it's just so obvious to me that, like, back then, the the race was, like, how much can I cap how much, like,   USD can I hold? Right?   Mhmm. So you you try to scramble to buy USD at whatever shit rate you could you could get because it's better than your money just losing 20, 30, 50 percent value per year. Right?   So so Bitcoin is just so obvious. Right? I mean, like, you have this thing that appreciates.  

It's not like the volatility sucks   for a person in that situation because they don't have enough capital to to just survive the the fluctuation. Right? They they they have to sell a bit, so they might sell at a loss.   But even then, it's too much better than their garbage currency.   Like, there is no questions anymore of the validity or or usefulness of the system.   I mean, like, look at gold. Gold has been a fucking, like, pet rock sinking.  

[00:44:10] Unknown:

Well, I love I love it's it's it seems so obvious now in hindsight, but obvious I haven't thought of it until Seth Godin   started, like, this new book with this idea. Like, the reason fiat won is because it's it's money across   space. Like Yes. Gold was money across time and that was great. But actually, we needed to upgrade for a global society. So we added money across space. And now we've got money across time and space.   That's that's both worlds.  

[00:44:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So   so so the thing is, like,   they like, when people talk about gold and, you you know, is this the great store of value blah blah blah, especially like the libertarian LARPers. Right?   The problem with gold is that gold lost.   It literally lost.   Right?   Because it's capturable.   So what does government do best with capturable things? They take it.   They have the the boots and they have the guns. So they go and they take it. Right? It happened to every major city that had gold in it through history, period.  

[00:45:14] Unknown:

What what percentage of of Bitcoin right now do you think is is capturable, like, with a phone call? Like, I'm just gonna call up   PayPal and Coinbase.  

[00:45:25] Unknown:

It's at least $1 a half $1,000,000   on on Coinbase between Coinbase exchange and custody.  

[00:45:31] Unknown:

So so from   my numbers is about 10 to 15%.   It's like one phone call. And then 2 phone calls, they probably capture, like,   25%  

[00:45:41] Unknown:

of Bitcoin. What's a what's a 2 2 phone call?  

[00:45:44] Unknown:

Well, 2 phone call is kinda like,   say say, like, there is a billionaire known for having coin himself,   but it's not a certain his business. It's not a certain city on Coinbase, but he's not willing to move because he has way more money somewhere out, like, on other things. Right?   So   so instead of just being one phone call to Coinbase saying give you the money, you'll be more like a a phone call to the police people saying go get the go tell the guy and then go talk to the judge to get it. It's It's like when you go get it. Silk Road hacker. He hacks Silk Road. Yeah. It was just like a 2 step thing instead of If he figured out who he was, they figured out who he was, and they, like, sent him a letter.   So yeah. So I I think 25 had to manually give them the coin. Right? But he he just cared about his freedom enough to do it. That's exactly right. It's like people who forfeit it so they don't go to jail, and they're not willing to move because they have other shit going on. Which is a lot of people.  

Well, yes and no. Right? Because   a lot of people would not move   over tax hikes,   but a lot of people would move over a 100% for feeding kinda situation.   So so it changes the dynamic very quick.  

[00:46:57] Unknown:

I guess also the dynamic if, like, the majority of what you own is Bitcoin.   Exactly. Right? I mean It becomes it becomes more,   likely that you'll go down with the ship. Right? No. What happens is you have a boat parade, and then there's a a very bad weather, and then there is, like, all the boats sink that day. I've been trying to add more regular segments to this show, and one of them that I've I've really liked the idea is how would you kill Bitcoin, and I feel like it really fits,   it fits into this current conversation well, so might as well just bring it up now. Do you   so do you think that and and let's let's just go let's pretend we're the the most sophisticated actor in the world. You're the US government. Do you think the US government could stop Bitcoin right now  

[00:47:40] Unknown:

if they wanted to? Probably. I don't know if they would be willing to pay the price.  

[00:47:44] Unknown:

What do you think, Paul?  

[00:47:47] Unknown:

My my pet theory of how   the US government could kill Bitcoin is by embracing it   and then, like, taking over the software development and just making   really awful software that nobody likes. That's hard to run, and it just, like, even rolling worse.  

[00:48:05] Unknown:

Yeah. That's Operation Orchestra.   Like,   sorry. Go on YouTube and watch the presentation by,   the the the free BSD guy in 2014 about operation   Orchestra.   It's totally worth watching. That's exactly how they destroyed open SSL, for example.   You just make a bunch of bad,   very bad decisions. You make the software awful. There's no documentation,   and then it just add all the bugs that he can exploit later.  

[00:48:36] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. You sneak in some some inflation bugs or Yeah. Totally. The double the double spin.  

[00:48:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Or and just see if and then and then you can get a whole bunch of FUD going and and But but, you know, they they they have the capabilities to do a a war of attrition in many fronts. Right? So in one side, they print and buy. Right? And they could even print, not tell anybody and buy.   They can use one of their hedge funds, like, you know, the government,   arm, like, Andreessen Horowitz or one of those.   And and then and then on the other end, they can introduce a bunch of friction and then a bunch of grief   on the   on the on the Bitcoin core sort of developing like they did with the with changing blacklist,   variable there and everybody got pissed.  

And then and then they can they can also sort of, like,   build a fuck ton of and then and then   go and, like, destroy those the the factories to sell to everybody else so they could own Bitcoin mining eventually.   There's a lot of ways they could do it.   But but, again, the the level of coordination,  

[00:49:45] Unknown:

money, and greed Motivation. There would have to be, like, a really   a lot of a lot of motivation. I'm not a huge  

[00:49:51] Unknown:

government conspiracy guy because, like, they are all incompetent.  

[00:49:56] Unknown:

What what happened with, like, Bill Barr towards the end of the last administration was,   really pushing, like, encryption bans,   or, like,   everything's gotta have a backdoor. And I I felt like it wasn't too   wasn't too threatening to Bitcoin because their method of enforcing that was to tell, like, companies Yep. Would have to build the backdoor in. So, like,   a purely open source project doesn't have to build a backdoor in. But So I do I do think some   some   I don't know what an effective   crackdown on encryption would look like, and obviously, it's been resisted before, but is an interesting  

[00:50:34] Unknown:

method of of attacking a lot of good software. It's the same it's I'm just gonna jump in here real quick. It's the same it's the same situation,   that we'd probably see with any kind of   realistic,   you know, likely Bitcoin   attack. And and I I think I think instead of going I think, you know, open source software is very hard to snuff out. It pretty much impossible to snuff out,   without going, like, purely to totalitarian   and going really hard hardcore totalitarian.   So the result is   is sophisticated users will be able to still use Bitcoin or sophisticated users will still be able to use PGP encryption and encrypt their communications,   but that average law abiding American citizen,   that average law abiding citizen   won't get the benefit of, you know, easy encryption in Imessage   or easy encryption in signal or easy Bitcoin payments through Apple Pay or,   an an app that you just install from the App Store or something like that. Right? Let me just say something that you're not gonna like.  



[00:51:36] Unknown:

The sheep will always get fucked.   Seriously,   the ratio of humans that get screwed as opposed to screw.   Yeah. No. The the ratio of screwed versus screwy   is all is gonna remain a constant   through humanity's   history, period.   There's no way out of that. See, the difference between pre Bitcoin world and pulse Bitcoin world, we're gonna probably change the the EARS system like we did for Jesus. It's gonna be pre Bitcoin, post Bitcoin,   is that   before Bitcoin,   the average person was not able   to do anything. Right? Like, they they just did there there was no way for them to carry   a chunk of gold or to to do anything. They had no access, right, to freedom essentially. If freedom really comes from money. Right?  

And and post Bitcoin just means that, like, now any person can have 24 words and have their wealth   completely in outside of meat space. Right?   So   what Bitcoin gives the average person now is just the possibility. Right? But all we can do is take the horse to the water.   That's all.   Right?   There's just so much we can do.   Like, Bitcoin is not for everybody.  

[00:52:56] Unknown:

I do like like small little crackdowns,   like,   I'm kind of   I haven't been following it, but, like, this this Google banning,   element   for matrix chat   is kinda fun. Because it's like, oh, well, here's a perfectly   useful,   good, interesting software. It's a federated alternative.   It's encrypted chat.   And now here's an excuse to get f droid. You know? Yeah. And and and you're not, like, going on f droid to get, like, the the world's, like,   20th best text editor. You're going on f droid to get, like, a very,   very good encrypted chat alternative.  

[00:53:35] Unknown:

Well, actually,   I mean, there's a whole another conversation about F droid because,   you shouldn't download Element from F droid because it's their repo is is way delayed.   So yeah.  

[00:53:49] Unknown:

But but realistically, right, like, how many people   of, like, talking about, like, the 7 0.5 or 8? I don't know. I lost count of humanity.  

[00:53:58] Unknown:

What, 1,000,000,000?  

[00:53:59] Unknown:

They're close to 8,000,000,000 people,   right, are realistically gonna, like, use some of these tools that you have to consciously,  

[00:54:09] Unknown:

like, do it. So Matrix is an interesting one. Right? Matrix is is is the concept of Matrix is interesting to me because it's another federated,   a fed another federated tool, open source tool, similar to Mastodon as we've discussed on on this show in the past.   In this case, it's like a Slack replacement or a Telegram replacement.   It it is very slick. It has, like, all the features you would expect to have, and really, I think the average user,   can interact with it without really kind of any   they only need, like, a surface level understanding of what's going on.   The person that needs to be sophisticated is the person who's running the instance. Right? That that that reminds me of 6. I I I have a I have a Bitcoin q and a friend of the show, and he was on the show, and he'll be on the show again.  

He launched his own instance, bitcointer.chat,   and Diverter, who is also on the show, has his own called use the dot tools.   And if you register with either of them, you can interact with the other ones as well, which is it's just really fucking cool.  

[00:55:15] Unknown:

Like,   that reminds me,   every time there is a good solution that the the sheep are gonna use,   they get skilled immediately because they know that that's the one. Right? This this is the the classic example to me is pass the popcorn.   Like, pass the popcorn   was the best  

[00:55:36] Unknown:

current client Oh, popcorn time.  

[00:55:39] Unknown:

Popcorn time. Yeah. Sorry. Past the popcorn like, streaming the street. Torrents. Right? That's right. Yes. That one.   That was like,   it was better than any other TV experience. It was better than Apple TV,   Right? You just plug the thing in   and you press the button and it works right. Like he was perfect.   Man, I have never seen studios go after something so hard ever. They hit him hard and fast. Oh, it was, like, like, immediate. I think that thing lasted, like, 2 weeks after he got, like, some exposure.  

[00:56:15] Unknown:

But that's the thing. That's where But but then, like, people forked it and, like,  

[00:56:19] Unknown:

half the forks are, like, viruses. And That's the problem. The other half of the, the other half of the forks are, like, totally useful and, like, totally worked. But I wonder if some of the forks that had viruses and stuff was part of the attack. Right? Probably. Put out a bunch of 4 clients that are all scams, and you scare people out of using it. Yeah. But once once these things are taken out, like, from the the mainstream   kind of thing of people, then it's kind of over. Right? That's the thing. We can talk about all this shit about censorship resistance. Right? You pull it out of the app store, and that's probably enough to disturb to deter most people from using it. But that's what I'm saying. Right? Like, with Bitcoin,  

[00:56:54] Unknown:

the the only people who are in Bitcoin   who are actually Bitcoiners   are people who self validate   and hold their own keys.   Everybody else   are just they they are taking   advantage of the Bitcoin   price upside.   Right?   But they're all gonna get fucked if ever   there is a concern about ownership.  

[00:57:19] Unknown:

Hey. Here's a question.   If Apple and Google decided   that Bitcoin was their number one enemy and they would do it what whatever it took to get rid of Bitcoin.   Or the US government,   this is a alternate scenario,   decided that Bitcoin was its number one enemy, and it would do it at whatever it takes. Who has a better shot at at shutting down Bitcoin? Well, the thing is if the US government does it, they'll do it through  

[00:57:46] Unknown:

Apple and Google.   Exactly. Right? They are arms TikTok. This is this is the thing that's crazy to me about Bitcoiners.   It's just infuriating about some Bitcoiners is that they were pro TikTok ban.   And some of them are on Clubhouse right now too, which is kind of interesting that you have a Clubhouse. But the difference the difference between if it was a Chinese app versus an American app, all of a sudden the corporate surveillance is fine,   if it's a US app. But if it's a Chinese app, we gotta ban it from the store. But I think you can easily drum up support for this stuff, and   and, I mean, if I was in a position trying to kill Bitcoin,   on on from an American government side,   I would what I would do is I would I would I would start declaring Americans'   terrorist organizations,   and then I would say that those Americans are using Bitcoin to fund their terrorist operations.  

And we're already seeing the first step of that,   with our current administration where they're they're coming out and and they're and and and and to be to be fair, we saw that with the previous administration on the Antifa side. So now we have   we have a very opaque,   may and it's always been that way, to be honest. A very a very opaque,   not transparent   way of dictating who's a terrorist and who's not, and it's just very simple step after that to say that they use Bitcoin because,   of course, the people that   you know, they're being censored on hold the other platforms. So, of course, that they're gonna end up using encryption in Bitcoin. Right? But, Matt, this is why it's so important for  

[00:59:23] Unknown:

the privacy zealots   to understand   that, like, it's it's like   all these publicly traded companies   buying Bitcoin,   all these politicians   buying Bitcoin,   all the coin bases of sorts,   all these entities   are moat   for us.   The more Bitcoin all these entities have, the better it is for us because,   see, the US government is not gonna crash its own stock market  

[00:59:55] Unknown:

by  

[00:59:56] Unknown:

by making it's exactly it's like you can't win the game,   okay,   until you play their game with your game rules.   See, this is why it's so beautiful,   like what Saylor is doing with the speculative attack on the dollar.   It's it's fucking rare. Not attacking the dollar. And then goes on TV   and then goes on fucking TV with a straight fucking face and says, we're not coming after the dollar. It's fucking amazing.   This is what we need. We need more of that. We need, like, another a 100 guys doing that. It's hard it's hard it's hard to say that  

[01:00:33] Unknown:

that Bitcoin is is only used by terrorists when the the richest man in the world, is buying some. Exactly.  

[01:00:41] Unknown:

You want all these symbols, all these people who   you know what I mean? Like, you want a lefty symbol, you want a righty symbol, you want a center symbol, all these people   to be Bitcoiners.  

[01:00:53] Unknown:

Just a little pause here for a second.   I guess we had a,   a freak in the comments asked if we would do a cold card giveaway.   Rodolfo, are you on board for that?  

[01:01:07] Unknown:

Fuck him. No. I'm kidding. Yeah. Sure.  

[01:01:10] Unknown:

I'm thinking   what do you think about should we do, like,   a Coinbase Pro price   at   in an hour from now at,   at 1919100,   eastern time? If you can come up with something more juicy, we can give a whole block clock media. What do you think? I I'm thinking about something that that they can just put it in the comments, and, like, we'll we'll know who wins in the future. Well, that's easier.   Right? And, like, the price Yeah. Sure. Let's do it. Why no. Seriously. And and I don't wanna do the bisque one because otherwise, they're all just gonna put in a prediction, like, 5 minutes beforehand that the liquidity is so low that it's not a good thing. So we're gonna have to use the evil empire.   So should we do should we do closest to the price,   closest to the price at 24100   UTC, so in an out for in 57 minutes from now,   closest to the price,   without going under?  



[01:02:09] Unknown:

Yeah. So okay. So how about this?   The person that gets if so if anybody gets it close to the dollar gets a block lock mini, one person, of course,   and and, and then to win the the second, like, the the cold card, it could be anything, whoever's the closest.   But to win a mini, you have to get close to the dollar. Okay. And you're you're  

[01:02:31] Unknown:

to you have to be within a dollar to get the mini, but if if you're just closest, you get the gold card. Yeah. Is it a dollar too too little? Should it be $5?   Let's do $5. Yeah. $5.   And and,   if it doesn't show up in the video,   you're you're not included. So make sure that if if you comment the price, it needs to show up in the video between now and   and and but guys guys guys   well, what is it they put in 2 predictions?  

[01:03:01] Unknown:

I well, that that's not to me, man. I I I hate contests, like, in terms of, like, being the arbitrator of it. Yeah. Me too. Okay. If you put in if you put if you put Oh, how about yeah. If you put 2, then the one that's the worst is the one that's yours.  

[01:03:17] Unknown:

Yeah. If you put   okay. So you only can put in 1 about this? Starting starting  

[01:03:22] Unknown:

after   after let me find here a person.   Okay.   Z x flee. Yeah. Just one entry. What? Yeah. So after z x flee, start again.  

[01:03:35] Unknown:

Okay.  

[01:03:37] Unknown:

So there is z x flee says at   something.  

[01:03:41] Unknown:

Right. There you go. Okay. Start from there. We're starting from one answer. Because we only have one you only have one prediction, guys.   So if if you're smart, you're gonna wait to make your prediction.   Wait. How long could they wait? Right? They gotta put it in before the cutoff. Yeah. When when what's the cutoff? So 10 minutes before 10 minutes before we cut it off?  

[01:04:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure.  

[01:04:02] Unknown:

But there's I don't care. Yeah. We'll we'll we're gonna cut it off 10 minutes before.  

[01:04:07] Unknown:

Oh, we can make it even more fun. We're we're gonna, at some point between now and an hour from now,   announce it's a cutoff.  

[01:04:18] Unknown:

Okay. Yeah. If you're not in by the cutoff, then you're you're not in. Yeah. We're just not telling you when the cutoff is gonna be. Okay. Rodolfo, you're gonna choose the cutoff. At at any point during our conversation, just hit us with the cutoff.  

[01:04:29] Unknown:

Nice. Alright. We can do that. That's more fun. I love 6102. That's a 4160102.  

[01:04:38] Unknown:

Strong strong brand right there. That's right.  

[01:04:42] Unknown:

Cheers, freaks. It would be pretty amazing if he wins, though.  

[01:04:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. So so, I mean, so we can,   I mean, while while we're on that while we're on that tangent,   I I thought an interesting premise for a reoccurring segment would be a price prediction for next show?   Mhmm. Where where do you think the Bitcoin price will be on Tuesday, Rodolfo?  

[01:05:05] Unknown:

Oh, Tuesday, man. Next Tuesday.   Okay. Can I give 2 predictions? A bear and a a bear and a bull? Sure.   Alright. My bear for next week   is   is,   another   whole fucking week   of, like, forties.   And the bow is,   we jump to 60.  

[01:05:33] Unknown:

What about you, Paul? My bear is  

[01:05:37] Unknown:

35.  

[01:05:38] Unknown:

I'm pulling on this. Don't give me a bear in both. Give me 55. What price do you think it's gonna be next week? $0.  

[01:05:44] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that is the that's the spirit. My prediction to price stock stock to flow eventually goes infinite. Right? That's right. Fuck the price. It's infinite. Doesn't fucking matter.  

[01:05:55] Unknown:

I I I think   I mean, I don't I don't think we ever go under 40 k ever again.   And, I don't think we ever go under 40 k ever again, and I think I I think we hit 50 before our HR on Thursday.  

[01:06:09] Unknown:

I think we're gonna go under 40 k  

[01:06:11] Unknown:

in the next week. Wow. Okay. Cool. We'll see how that plays out. I like that as a reoccurring segment.   So, I mean, Paul, so you wanted to talk about BIPS and the BIPS process,   and I I I think Rodolfo is a great person,   for you to, you know, discuss this with,   because he's been pretty active,   in how how all that unfolds.   And, I mean, they just submitted a new BIP.   I guess he was he was you're a part of that Rodolfo. Right? I might have helped the name.   For for a new BIP for multisig.   And so Paul Paul is, you know, a a relatively new Bitcoiner,   class of 2017.  

And he's been trying to, you know, get more involved in Bitcoin,   from a development angle.   And part of that has been exploring the Bitcoin improvement protocol,   process. Right? So   cold bips.  

[01:07:08] Unknown:

Yes. It's sort of like whenever you're, like, doing anything related to Bitcoin   like, I,   I'll give you my specific example.   I exported   the generic wall export from a cold card.   And there's a whole bunch of numbers in there, and there's 3 bips referred to in there, which are,   their derivation path things. I don't know what they are. Yeah. Yeah. BIP. And, 24. Yeah. Yeah. You're there.   And so and then you go look up the BIP and and what it means.   So,   like on github.com/bitcoin/bips,   there's this huge list of BIPs. Yeah.   I actually had not noticed until recently that there is an actual status   on them.  

So you could have a BIP, and it could have a number, but it could be,   withdrawn.   So, like, somebody had an idea for how Bitcoin should work. People were into it, and then later on, it got superseded by something or got reversed. As far as I understand, like, right now with Taproot,   they are, like, revising  

[01:08:17] Unknown:

BIP 8. It says right now the status is in draft. So so here's here's normally how it works.   So say you have an idea. Okay?   I have a fantastic   idea for Bitcoin. I think the client should be red,   and it's red   gray. Right?   So what you do is you'd normally,   before you do anything, you go talk to a few people who contribute to Bitcoin, and you say, hey. I have this idea.   Right? The Bitcoin client should be red. They're gonna say you're an idiot. Don't do that.   And and, you know, if enough of them telling you you're an idiot and you shouldn't be doing that, you probably shouldn't be doing that.   But let's say a few of them say, hey. You know what? That's a great idea.  

You should write a proposal.   So you write a proposal. You show it to a few people first, get them to sort of, like,   tell you that   that that has some legs. Right?   And then what you normally do is   you you send your idea to the mailing list, to the dev Bitcoin dev mailing list,   and then people are gonna respond to you, giving you some feedback, giving you criticism, saying this is good, this is about whatever. Right?   And then,   it's very academic in that sense. Right?   And then say you got all the feedback, you you, you know, you continue and say it's good enough. Right? So then what you do is you go on that on the BIPS   repo,   and and   and you you ask to have a number, really. Right? And and, like, the the maintainers are gonna   give that bIP a number. And if the bIP gets approved that he gets a number.  

If that bib gets approved, it means it's gonna almost certainly   make to the Bitcoin client   which is the core client.  

[01:10:13] Unknown:

So   Why why almost certainly?  

[01:10:17] Unknown:

That could be that could be some snags. Right? Like, say I can't remember now. It's not coming to mind, but that could be, say, like, you know, you create a BIP and then essentially, it's take it takes forever to get developed into the client. Right? And then something else supersedes it.   It could it could happen, I guess.   It's not things coming to mind. I don't wanna talk into absolutes because we have so many bips now. We're at, like, 300.  

[01:10:41] Unknown:

Talk about let's talk about,   PSBTs.  

[01:10:46] Unknown:

So PSBT is interesting because it it was a BIP, it got approved. It was sitting there.   Just sitting there for, I don't know, like, 2 years   or something more. I don't know. Nobody was using it.  

[01:11:00] Unknown:

And then, like, we saw, like, you know, this is a great idea. So we we built CodeCard around that. Okay. See, that that that's I think part of what it makes them a little confusing for me because I see a BIP. It looks you can look it up. You can read it.   But the because you aren't certain that it is implemented everywhere, you don't know what what does that mean. Like, it's it's it There's not a guarantee that everybody in Bitcoin is going to accommodate this even though it seems to be approved,   as a path for Bitcoin.  

[01:11:30] Unknown:

What you brought up is beautiful   because it exactly represents a rough consensus system.   There is no official Bitcoin   anything,   including Bitcoin Core and including the Bips.   Nothing in Bitcoin is official.   You're free to do whatever the fuck you want.   Right?   Now you have to do the consequences of that too. Right? If the majority of the network   follows Bitcoin core   now and you create a different set of consensus rules, you're probably not gonna sync. Right?   Now when it comes to wallets and other things that are not necessarily protocol related,   but because   the Bitcoin network doesn't give a shit on how you do your wallet. As long as your   UTXO's,   your unspent outputs,   and your transactions are signed correctly and then broadcasted,   everything else on how you deal with your Bitcoin is your problem.  

Right? What happened   was in the last few years,   there's been a lot more   attempts at standardizing   a lot of the a lot of the ways you do wallet stuff.   So for example, BIP 39   is how you do the the mnemonic   c generation, right, with the with the mnemonic words,   But   that bip does not even, like, pertains to, like, derivation paths. Right?   BIP 32   was the first one. It was the hierarchical determinate deterministic,   path generation. Right? But it also does not tell you which paths to take.   So  

[01:13:12] Unknown:

because again So so people were like, okay. We like this BIP. This is an improvement,   but still there were parts of the wallet that were kind of underspecified.  

[01:13:22] Unknown:

Yeah. There's gonna be a lot of that, and then there is a lag between what gets approved and what makes into core.   And then there is this thing where it's like, you know, most people don't use core as their wallet. They only use core as a node.   So much so that Bitcoin Core got named Core as opposed to Bitcoin, just Bitcoin, because they were going to separate the wallet from the   node.   They were going to separate the wallet code from the consensus code,   because technically,   those 2 have nothing to do with each other.  

[01:13:56] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. I I'm really looking forward to that seems to make a lot of sense to me to Yeah. But, you know, it's, again, right, it's very complicated to these things in rough consensus.  

[01:14:07] Unknown:

Like, because there is no arbitrator.   Right? There is no owner. There's no benevolent dictator like in Linux or anything like that. So  

[01:14:18] Unknown:

So by having   there be a wall in core, it kinda helps there be a wall consensus?  

[01:14:23] Unknown:

Yeah. People people   earnestly   try to create things that are compatible with other things in Bitcoin. Right?   It's just that it they're gonna deviate. Right? Like, for example, cold card, we're, like, super anal about trying to keep within bps   even when we think some of those bps are terrible   because   we we want to build a thing that's just compatible.   Right? Like, with most of the solutions and it's open. It's that way. Right?   And we are not we don't touch shitcoins. Right? Now,   when you have other hardware wallets or other wallets that touch shitcoins, now they need to make their stuff a little bit more pragmatic towards the shitcoins. Right? So for example, BIP 39,   like, you know, Trezor supports a bunch of shitcoins, so they they don't wanna add a bunch of, like, extra stuff that's Bitcoin specific,   to it because it won't be compatible with shitcoins.  

Right? So that's why   you're really only gonna see   Bitcoin only wallets supporting PSBTs,   right, the partially signed Bitcoin transaction files,   on Bitcoin only wallets, not on Shecoin wallets   because the SPT is Bitcoin only.   So it gets tricky. Right? Like, I mean, people have businesses to run and and it's completely understandable that they're gonna make decisions around those those pragmatic views.  

[01:15:49] Unknown:

Okay. So and again, kind of on the more pragmatic side, as a user,   when I see because, like, if you go to these bips, like, they are pretty technical. They refer to each other a lot. Yeah. So you could've Yes. See It's like the bible.   Yeah.   So, like, as a user, when you see someone refer to something by the BIP, like, like, what is your go to   for for research? Like, where you where where do you go first when you're trying to, like,  

[01:16:19] Unknown:

figure out what that means for you in your particular case? Well, you know, you go Neo style. Right? You follow the source.   Like, you go to the source. You go to Bitcoin Core,   and you go read the bips, and you go read the code. Just read the code.   It's terrible for noobs.   It's rape.   But this is what I keep on trying to say to people. Right?   Bitcoin like, true Bitcoining.   Right? There is no escaping.   Sorry. I'm eating meat sticks.  

[01:16:53] Unknown:

What a Bitcoiner move.  

[01:16:55] Unknown:

There is no escaping,   okay, doing your own research in Bitcoin if you're a true full Bitcoin citizen.   There's no alternative to that. Every   time the UX whining people go, but the UX needs to be better blah blah blah. It's true.   It could be a lot better. It's never gonna be perfect because it's a rough consensus system that you shouldn't be trusting anybody,   and every time you make one step,   easier, it means you're probably giving trust to something   or someone   in that step. Right? So now you make it super easy, like, great, use Coinbase. Right?   Mhmm. Or even Robinhood or something like that. I mean, like, look at how many layers you are away from real Bitcoin. Right?  

So,   we at least try   to expose gently   as much as we can of the real deal to the users   because we don't want them to be scammed   or to not be full citizens.   I I think that's very important, and I and I wish the UX people would sort of, like, internalize   that, that they have to push the users to the knowledge path. Right? They have to take the horse to the water.  

[01:18:17] Unknown:

Yeah. I I've definitely started to have this feeling, like, the the biggest solve to all these sort of decentralized   systems that seem very hard to get off the ground is is it's sort of it's it's an amount of literacy.   Bitcoin,   especially like, Bitcoin,   especially if I'm, like, actually writing software that is more,   like, I'm trying to, like, mess around with, like, actually writing a wallet.   There's just   I don't know. It seems a lot to learn. I'm very bad at remembering what bips mean.   I guess I just need to immerse myself more in it. It'll become very obvious to you. It's like  

[01:18:55] Unknown:

all these all these bips just become obvious.   I mean, and then there is the ones you forget. Right? Because there's all the consensus stuff.   Like, you know, there's, like, the flag bip and whatever bip. It's like forget about that stuff for wallets.   What I recommend actually,   go to,   James,   I always forget his last name. James   O'Brien? O'Byrne. O'Byrne. That's how yeah. The O'Byrne brothers. The O'Byrne brothers. Legends.   Yes. So James wrote,   what is it, code?   He he wrote   a a a CLI wallet. Right? So command line wallet,   to talk to his cold card.  

What's nice though is Coldcore. Right? Coldcore.   That's it. And he used to be a core contributor.   What's really cool about that wallet is that it's bare.   So, if you're gonna if you go look at the code, you're not gonna get, like, all the noise from the UI stuff from anything else.   Mhmm.   And that'll give you, like, a nice perspective,   of, like, what it takes to write a wallet.   So, like, fantastic little project.  

[01:20:10] Unknown:

Okay. I saw him tweeting about how to actually look at the code. Definitely check   that  

[01:20:17] Unknown:

out. Yeah.   So, yeah, that's dips for you. That's rough consensus.  

[01:20:24] Unknown:

And what what what bip are have you been working on?  

[01:20:28] Unknown:

Oh,   no. It's it's dude, I do not I cannot take any,   any   any credit on that. It's like it's all Hugo.   So, it's a Bitcoin secure multisig   setup.   So so there there is a fundamental problem, right, in multisig, which is how do how do you create the script, the the quorum   for the signers without   trusting   the network   that you use to talk to the signers?   It's not a simple problem.   So with cold card between cold cards aside from the bug we had,   you can trust the setup because the cold card keeps,   keeps a bunch of meta information,   right,   about the signers so that he can't cheat   about who's the signer so that he can maybe get a griefing attack or something like that.  

We we had a bug that was fixed,   that was not we were trusting the the, essentially, the the wallet ID,   but but that's like that doesn't matter anyways because most of the other wallets were not checking anything.   So   what this new BIP tries to do is create a standard   of how to create a a a multisig wallet between different vendors.   Right? And and what it does is actually just creates a session. Right? So, you you know, it just shares shares a token with each other, and then you create a section a session of each other and then you say like, you know, hey. I am this x pub and this ID and this blah blah blah, and I'm gonna be signer number 1 and then you pass that to the next one, and then the next one identifies itself, and then, you know, and then you do the quorum. Right? And you create your your your redeem script.   And and, and this one uses,   descriptors.  

Descriptors   is essentially the new right way of of creating   wallets,   but that's a tangent.   Anyways, so so that's the idea of this new BIP. There is no number for it. It's just a proposal right now on the mailing list.  

[01:22:46] Unknown:

I gotta get on this mailing list. Wait. Can you so this session, is this something that you you're imagining this is happening over the Internet, or is this like like,  

[01:22:54] Unknown:

a file that you're moving from, like, harbor wall to harbor wall? It it it would work in both. Right? You can do sneaker net like cold card does with micro SD. You can do USB.   You can do over the network. Right? Because let's say that   you you want to do your cold card with your unchained capital account. Lots of users do that.   Right now, they're using some,   some very complex,   setup with, I forgot the name of the of the of the thing that they created,   Caravan.   But this thing simplifies and creates an actual standard. Right? And and remember, right, hardware wallets are very limited in memory and processing, so, like, all these things have to be taken into consideration when you're creating these protocols.  

[01:23:42] Unknown:

But so so so just first of all,   that conversation so far the conversation so far is everything I was dreamed I dreamed it was gonna be. So I appreciate you both for having me on the show and   and having this great conversation.   I   I I think the important thing here for the freaks, just to   to show where the issue is, the issue lies   with in multi in a multisig setup, if we need to verify what's going on,   the each signing device needs to know   what the other devices are. Each signing device needs to know everything that's going on. And in a single sig,   if you have a single sig cold card, for instance, obviously, that cold card knows exactly what the fuck's going on because it's the only device in in in   the signature scheme. It's a one of 1. But if you have multisig,   all these different devices need to communicate with each other and be able to tell each other what is going on in the bigger picture the bigger picture scheme of things. And with multisig, we see a lot of people pushing,   for good reason pushing for multi vendor, multisig because they wanna reduce trust in any specific vendor. They wanna reduce their trust in Rodolfo,  

[01:24:55] Unknown:

so they want to add other vendors to the mix. And if we don't have a standard, then communication between those devices becomes extremely difficult. Right? Can we make can we make this a little more explicit? Because I really do wanna follow this. So, like Okay. Let's So let's say we've got a, like, a 2 of 3 setup. Right? Like Okay. So back back away from that. Let's say you have you have 2 devices.  

[01:25:16] Unknown:

Mhmm. Okay? You have a ledger and a cold card. Mhmm. Okay?   You wanna create a multisig between them.   Yep. You're not even at a point to when you choose the the 2 or 3 or the m event. Right? You you have 2 separate devices,   2 different companies, and you wanna make a multisig between them. Right? Yeah. Let's say you choose   Spectre   to be your coordinator.   Okay? If you ask cold card plus cold card, you can make the 2 cold cards stock to each other because same vendor, we can create the specs   And, you know, vendors are gonna always have their own specs between   their own devices because it's easy. Right?  

But my competitors are gonna probably not gonna follow my spec because they wanna sell more of their devices. Right?   So   we need a coordinator,   right, to talk between these wallets.  

[01:26:09] Unknown:

So well, it's designers. And that's not Spectres. I would have think of Specter could be the coordinator, like,  

[01:26:16] Unknown:

Specter and and kinda is right now, like, you can do multisig with Yes. With Specter. Right? So so Spectre desktop can be cold card can be a coordinator between cold cards or cold card,   respecting standard devices. Right?   Code cards are a little bit weird that way, but most hardware wallets cannot coordinate   multi signature quorums.   Right? They cannot create   a a a redeem script.   So   what happens is so you you you plug in your ledger and your cold card and and you make them, you know, say hi to to to Specter and and and then register their ex pubs. Right?   So they're they're extended public keys   so that Specter knows which keys to use to create the multisig   m of n quorum. Right?  

Right. So so now the problem is   you need to trust   that the 2 devices   are saying who they are and the and the the coordinator   can has to trust   that is receiving the right information. Right? Because you could have because every time you now you're touching a computer, right, and the computer could have viruses.   So if there is a virus on a lecternum or a specter,   we could be telling specter the wrong information. It could be saying,   hey, this cold card is real and say the cold card is real.   And and then it says And Ben sneaks in one of his own x pubs and now Exactly. Spend your funds. Exactly. And says that, oh, this ledger is real too.   Wait. No. That's Ben's keys.  

Right? We're watching you, Ben. Exactly. Right? And then he creates the redeem script with Ben Skis.   Right? Listen.   Again, the problem with with   all this shit show that, for example, happened today with the disclosure of a competitor,   is that there's a lot of FUD   around   very important topics. Right? Like,   yes, it is very important to get this right,   but no, there is no need for hysteria   because I have, dude, we have like   a lot of devices in the market,   and I have not seen a single,   evidence   of   a exploit of these in the wild, right?   These are not easy to do exploits,   but it but they are possible. Right? So that's why it's important for us to fix them,   So I I just, I guess, wanted to put a caveat in there so people need to chill.  



[01:28:54] Unknown:

Okay. So you so you so so your suggest the the southern this southern person   who worked on this bit is suggesting a method where a hardware wallet could create   the, like, the,  

[01:29:07] Unknown:

Yeah. So I'll get there. The script. Okay. Sorry for the tangent. Okay. Right. So so, essentially,   the issue is you need to know each cosigner, right? And you need to prove   each cosigner,   so that you don't have malicious addresses.   That's the problem.   So the way to solve this   is so that on the first setup, there's gonna be trust there,   You're gonna essentially register each device,   right, with the coordinator   and each other,   ideally.   Code card does that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be each everyone knowing. But at least the coordination device would tell the coordinator, here's my xpub. Exactly. But you would have been a session open to pass the xpub first.   Right? So before I send you the xpub, we have to exchange some secrets   and shake hands.  

So we do a handshake, we have a session open, then I pass you my x pub.  

[01:30:04] Unknown:

And and that handshake session is to reduce  

[01:30:08] Unknown:

the how much you have to trust each device or Well, after the fact, yes. So so then so then it's a lot easier to prove addresses because you have a trusted x pub now between each other.  

[01:30:21] Unknown:

A trusted x pub between each other as in you have I I don't know what that means.  

[01:30:26] Unknown:

So so you trust each other's keys.   You so so you derive addresses from your xpub. Right? Mhmm.   So if you trust each other's xpubs, now you can trust the addresses.   Okay. Okay. That's all. So so, essentially, that's what this is. It's just a spec,   a a standard   for you   to   to trust the setup.  

[01:30:49] Unknown:

And and so   let's say we're doing this all with, like, SD cards. You had a bunch of or you had these 2 wallets and they each had micro SD   cards. So you would maybe export an XPub.  

[01:31:02] Unknown:

Oh, so so there is a mix realistically speaking, cold card is the only one of the the the SD card   coordination thing. Okay.   So and I don't think there's gonna be anything   soon.   So how would you coordinate without plugging into It's gonna be it's gonna be micro c for cold card or USB for cold card, and the other ones are gonna probably be USB.   Okay. Or Or QR.  

[01:31:26] Unknown:

Or QR. Yeah. Animated animated QR. Right? Because it'd be a large amount of data.  

[01:31:32] Unknown:

Not not for for not for the setup because it's the ex pub. It's not the full public key. Right?   So it's it's a lot less data. The the problem so QRs are fucked, completely boned   once you have large   transactions doing PSVT and multisig.  

[01:31:50] Unknown:

So to the to the to the freaks that are are watching,   they clearly know what an XPUB is.   To the freaks that are listening, the XPUB is your view key.   So it allows you to view transactions,   it allows you to view balances and, you know, create addresses and whatnot. So let's just But you can't spend it without your private key, which is your spend key. Exactly. But the XPUB is not  

[01:32:14] Unknown:

your public key.   The XPUB is like a short version of your public key.   The same way your XPUB   is the short version. Now you're just confused receiver. I know, but, hey. Listen. I have to put that out there.  

[01:32:31] Unknown:

I I think I don't think it was a view. I think it was like a, like, a public key factory. Like, this is my thing that I make public keys with. But that's fair too. Yeah. The the this is the thing. Right? Like, Bitcoin is PGP.  

[01:32:44] Unknown:

It's like public private key,   like, cryptography. Right? So, like, you have a private, you have a secret,   and then from the secret, you derive   your,   your identifier.   That's what the expub is. It's an identifier.   But   we got clever,   and we generate addresses from the identifier.  

[01:33:13] Unknown:

What one,   one other thing that has or some kinda surprised me about multisig, maybe I don't completely understand it, but part of how you're spending   when you're spending multisig, you're satisfying a script.  

[01:33:26] Unknown:

That's right.  

[01:33:27] Unknown:

And so   there's a there's an aspect of that you don't just need the, like, 2 of 3   signers to satisfy the script. You You need to have the script. You need to know what the script is, which is really That's right. Like,   it   kinda surprised me and as a concept, but, like, here's another thing that I really need to secure.   Obviously, if the script is a really   widely understood standard, then I could just refer to it by its maybe it's BIP or something. It's not.  

[01:33:57] Unknown:

It's not. So see, this is where so this is why I have a lot of hate for multisig even though I'm a multisig provider.   So the the problem is multisig is not ready for the average person, period. Anybody who says the contrary is fucking lying to themselves or is way too advanced and doesn't understand that people are just too dumb for it.  

[01:34:25] Unknown:

One of the hosted ones, but then, obviously, you're trusting them with your privacy. Yeah. Well, you're trusting them with your privacy. You're not fucked. I mean, I Yeah. Let's not be hyperbolic here, Rodolfo. No. That's fair. That's fair. And you know what? Kaza, to be fair,  

[01:34:38] Unknown:

has   documented   beautifully   their redeem script on walletsrecovery.org.  

[01:34:46] Unknown:

Well, so so a lot of these pain points are kind of solved. I mean,   I use solved loosely,   but if if if okay. So so if you're a freak, and and let's be honest, the freaks are more advanced   than 99%   of people on this planet. Like, this is why, like, I'm freaking out and I I you gotta remember   that most people don't realize what's going on right now, and that's even more scary.   But, back back to multisig, like if you're a freak and you're advanced and you're using multisig,   I think, like, a very actionable and I try and keep the show as actionable as possible. A a very actionable best practice   is to have a clean device,   a dedicated computer,   that's not connected to the Internet,   that that is running your, you know, has has your full wallet on there. I mean, not the private keys, but it has your full,   your full setup there. Right? With with everything ready to go. So so man confirm addresses on it and you can make sure that that everything is is is kosher. Right? K. Yeah. Let let me this is the the advice that I give to people in general about Bitcoin.  



[01:35:52] Unknown:

Go and buy a refurbished   old Mac laptop.   Okay?   So   aside from Linux being the original shitcoin, because FreeBSD is really the true OS,   Like the reality is FreeBSD and Linux,   for the average person who don't make their full time job maintaining wallets, it's gonna be a problem because   when they have packages   for wallets, they might run into issues later on, right, with backups.   So what I like about an old Mac is that   it it it's like it is a true free b s d sort of software,   but it's like it's got all the sort of, you know, user friendly bullshit on top. Right?   So, it's very easy   for that person to migrate Appleshit to Appleshit later if they need to,   and it's easy to back up.  

So and it's secure enough.   It's actually probably more secure than most Linux distros.  

[01:36:57] Unknown:

As long as you as long as you trust Apple and the the US government.  

[01:37:01] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. But the same as Linux. Just let's not even enter Linux problems here, but whatever. Mhmm. So my my point is is just I just like it because it's a reasonable compromise. Right?   Uh-huh. It's a it's a useful reasonable compromise.   So   you have a simple computer that just works. Right? That has reasonable drivers and all that shit.   So what you do   is keep a copy of the last   working version of the of the coordination   wallet.   Right. Either for multisig or single. Keep everything.   Yes. Just keep fucking every just have not use all those acts. I disagree. I disagree with Rodolfo on that. You're completely  

[01:37:42] Unknown:

oblivious to how the US government owns, like, Linux and and phones. I mean, look. They might own they might own your Linux install, but they definitely own your fucking OSX install. Like, that's Exactly. So just give up the pain of Linux   because you're owned anyways. Okay. But the point is you wanna save you wanna save as much information as possible. And the trade off there is is really is mostly a privacy trade off,  

[01:38:15] Unknown:

information that's important to save. There's one more step. No. There's one more problem. Right? If you're using a Windows machine, you could have a virus very easily   that will screw you   on your coordination wallet. Right? So you could have, like, an electron virus kind of right. 6102 an aneurysm over here, by the way, in the comments. I know. It's a lot of fun.   And   it it it listen. Hardware people appreciate Apple.   So,   so, anyways, my my point is just you have have a laptop   that that's your, say, your like, that's your Bitcoin machine. Right? And, ideally, that that Bitcoin machine does not really touch the Internet. You don't have to have your phone on it. None of that stuff. Right? Well, why a laptop? It doesn't need I mean, I think a desktop is better because it doesn't have a camera or a microphone or a Wi Fi or have to plug shit into it to use. It's like, I'm trying to be practical.  

[01:39:07] Unknown:

Goddamn it. How is this not touching the Internet if this is like I mean, let's say you're running speech on here. No. No. So,  

[01:39:15] Unknown:

it's a different machine. Yeah. So so have your node running on on some other machine you have around. If you don't have many machines,   it's just like, listen. So you prepare your transactions  

[01:39:27] Unknown:

on an unconnected  

[01:39:29] Unknown:

laptop and then you bring them over to a connected broadcast. This is for real money, people. This is not for fucking buying VPN service, okay, with Bitcoin.   It's for real money. Don't don't waste your time, effort,   and and money   on   buying cup of coffee with, like, a air gapped computer for your hardware wallets. Okay? Please   don't mix things. For that, like have a stupid fucking wallet on your phone that's single sig, okay, and that that you have a $100 worth of Bitcoin there and that's what you use to pay for stuff.   This is for your savings account that you don't touch all the time.  

That's when you have your your your, like, your let's call it your Bitcoin laptop.   Right? That you have  

[01:40:16] Unknown:

your You get NextOS   on a PowerBook.  

[01:40:19] Unknown:

That's right. Yeah. Exactly. And then you also,   by   means to,   make your life shorter.   I can't say the never mind. It's not good for   the Internet these days to say things. It's like you cannot joke about suicide.  

[01:40:41] Unknown:

Yeah. No. You can't.   Serious. Especially in this and especially in this space,   please   please, freaks, do not keep more money in the dollar than you can afford to lose. Exactly.  

[01:40:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Anyways, so aside from my my terrible joke about,   you know, making bad technical decisions that end in in life ending situations,   seriously, so you have your your your Bitcoin laptop that doesn't touch the Internet, and this is really cool because you can experiment with different wallets.   You can do all sorts of shit, and then you're not as concerned about USB plugging your hardware wallets or none of that stuff.   Right? This is your Bitcoin playing machine for your savings.   And, you know, and then when you need to build transactions you can, you know, you can either build transactions on on this thing by importing   latest block data,   via snicker net, or maybe you plug into your local network, and you just and and there is nothing on this laptop running but,   a a phone node on it. Right? If you wanna just keep it simple by having just one thing, but you don't need,   more   than your only q x o information.  

So you could just sort of catch up to the amount of, amount of blocks that sort of build your own transaction. That's all you need, really.  

[01:42:04] Unknown:

Yeah. So we have we have Rad Vladdy in the comments, and I I think he makes an interesting point.   He uses Sparrow and Spectre,   the same wallet on different machines.   Yeah. And, like, so so this is a perfect case. Like, as as things are getting,   as as you have more value,   that that you're securing,   this is a this is a great way to,   it's a it's a great way to reduce trust in any individual software, especially if you don't,   have the ability to read the code or verify the code,   because you can you can make sure that on both machines, you have 2 different software packages. They're both they're both interacting with the network through Bitcoin Core, and you could confirm that the receive addresses are the same before you send to them.   That's a beautiful one. Just to show, like, where we're at in terms of verifying receive addresses and how how important it is to make sure that the the address that you're sending to is an address that you control.  

We're going above and beyond. The the the practicality   of of this type of attack, I mean,   the the real guys who are really vulnerable are the traders who are interacting on these websites and depositing Bitcoin into, like, a Coinbase or a Kraken or a Bitfinex, they have no way to verify those receive addresses.   Yep. I mean, technically, if they were doing it correct if they were doing it, you know,   as trust minimized as possible, those services would offer a PGP signed,   address. They don't do that. So really, we have we have 1,000,000,000 1,000,000,000   and and 1,000,000,000 of dollars with the Bitcoin   is being transacted with every day on receive addresses that aren't being verified, and there aren't any attacks. But it's still something that we need to obviously be concerned about if you're talking about your HODL stash that that that you want to last generations.  



[01:43:50] Unknown:

I've never  

[01:43:51] Unknown:

moved money onto Coinbase or something like that. Like, is it just on a website? You just copy and paste? Yeah. They just show you a particular code and an address. That that seriously. It's like people are, like, spending the day today making my life miserable with stupid PR spins on a bug that's like, you know, it's a real bug and, you know, you had a real fix.   But, like, while morons are fucking copying and pasting an address from a browser   to send real fucking money to.   The disparity, the the cognitive dissonance in this space is just infuriating,   and we haven't even got to tap root yet.  

Wait. So what all this to say that this this this BIP still doesn't Wait. Wait. We're done. Mechanical multi state. It off? Let's cut this shit off. Right? What? No. No. No. No. Continue, dude. I I have, like, I've already I'm already, my kids are already in bed. No. No. I'm saying, should we cut off the giveaway?   Oh.   It's in 15 minutes. It's the price in 15 minutes. Alright. You guys have, 2 minutes. So you have until,   48   on the clock.   Whatever is your time, 48 on the clock to give,   a price,   and then we're gonna and then we're gonna, check.  

[01:45:16] Unknown:

And then maybe we should give away another cold card to have someone verify what their what's going to be.   I don't wanna go back. We'll we'll figure it out. Yeah. I'm I'm totally game for that.   I'm Sean Sean Stacken is asking in the comments what the giveaway is. The giveaway is if you get it, the price on the top of the the price the price sticker on the top, which is Coinbase, Coinbase Pro,   the evil empire, the the price   in 14 minutes,   you know, when the the new hour calls,   the closest to that is gonna get a free cold card. And if you're within a dollar, you get a free Block Lock Mini.   And, Rodolfo is gonna cut it off whenever he deems fit, and I apparently, that's in under 2 minutes. Yeah. Hang on. I'm just gonna buy us I'm just gonna put in a sell order.  

We've officially pumped the price. That's right.   The scam is over. We've fucking done it.  

[01:46:09] Unknown:

Where are the hedge funds now?  

[01:46:11] Unknown:

That's what people don't realize. They think we're just, like, you know, resting  

[01:46:24] Unknown:

astronomically negligible compared to where we're going. It's, like, not even fucking funny. I I'm not even excited anymore about this kind of price.   This is like I don't even get a morning stiffy on this.  

[01:46:38] Unknown:

I mean,   I I'm not gonna pretend that I'm above a 9 oh, by the way, freaks, you only have one guest. So if you've guessed in the past already, like, your new guess isn't gonna count. It might change. What's gonna happen is we're gonna pick your worst your worst number out of 2. You only get one guess if we're picking the worst thing.   No. We're not guessing the best price because the best price doesn't change that often, and you guys are all just gonna fucking guess the same price.   Here at the caps Odell for being here. My my new favorite novelty account who I'm trying to edge out by just tweeting out only in caps.   So  

[01:47:11] Unknown:

and Matt Odell is the real caps Odell. The real yeah. Exactly. Right? Like I'm just gonna put it out. I started the caps livestream.   I've started the caps NIM   years ago.  

[01:47:23] Unknown:

Oh, the n v k, all caps? That's right. It's funny because I'm a man of extremes. You know? I was all lowercase. That's right. I was, like, I was radical lowercase. My whole bio was all lowercase, and I switched to all the caps. Yeah. I think, I think your price horizon hit some spot there because after 30, you just turn into caps Odell.   No. The problem is the problem is is,   you know,   people aren't appreciating,   you know, with the situation we're fucking in. Like, they need to fucking appreciate it. People won't.  

[01:47:58] Unknown:

There is no amount of caps   that's gonna make the people see.  

[01:48:04] Unknown:

Some people will see. There's there's some there are some people that are that are silently   silently   observing on Twitter   that because I went to all caps,   it registered for them. The the the gravity of the situation  

[01:48:20] Unknown:

registered for them that wouldn't otherwise. That's why I love the whole, Wall Street Bets and the Dogecoin stuff. Yeah. So let's talk about that. Yes, sir. I mean, those are my people, and I got a lot of flack for saying those are my people. So so those are my people.   Those are the best orange peeling moments for that cohort   that could possibly happen.   It's amazing.   Like, you have this, like, 1,000 and 1,000 of teenagers getting fucked by Wall Street. Right? Because, listen, they can win once, twice, but they're gonna get fucked.   There's no winning that game because those guys have very deep pockets. Right?  

So those guys are gonna learn very fast, like they did the Robinhood shit, that they cannot win when it's somebody else's game.   With Bitcoin, you have fair games. It's a fair rule. Everybody has the same rules, and nobody can fucking fuck you with you. So, it's it's amazing. Like, you can't you can't have anything better than that to teach them  

[01:49:22] Unknown:

about Bitcoin. It's a great awakening.   A a great awakening for a large amount of people, and I think we're just gonna have more and more. What does Paul think?  

[01:49:33] Unknown:

I don't know. I'm I'm I'm on TikTok. I love it when China spies on me. And,   and people don't   people are not aware. They feel like there are so many people who don't know what's going on.   And   it it it I think it's just it's so   you have to get pretty far into Bitcoin   to realize   how different it is from everything else. So you just kind of assume,   okay. Yeah. Like, I got screwed over by the hedge funds and Robinhood or whatever and all the bad guys or whatever.   And now I'm going to   what? I'm gonna go to this new thing that I don't even understand.   Who's gonna screw me over this time? You know? Like, it's almost like it's a self preservation thing to avoid Bitcoin in a sense. Because, like, why would you know, like, if you don't know who the sucker is,   it's probably you. So if you don't understand Bitcoin, it doesn't make any sense to go there. So you really have to learn a lot about   how good it is in so many different,   ways. And if if you're just kinda flitting from, like, meme stock to meme stock, you're not really   used to, like, doing,   in-depth. Although, as I I did really hate the media reaction. Like, oh, they just traded on the meme, and, like, then there's all this, like, fundamental analysis of game stops that Right? Because because, I mean, I saw Joe Weisenthal tweeted out, that it was a meme squeeze and that all meme squeezes,  

[01:51:00] Unknown:

end in in in death, and I I felt like he was,   subtweeting me,   because because I'm trying to popularize Sat Squeeze,   so he was like, oh, it's a meme squeeze, and and and and Bitcoin is a meme squeeze as well.   2 things there. First of all,   sad squeeze is greater than meme squeeze. I I don't think there is   a comparable there. Like, you're just gonna get wrecked if you wanna compare GameStop and,   and Bitcoin. And then the second thing is,   instead of responding to the tweet, I just bought the domain. So I own memesqueen.com   now. I don't know.  



[01:51:38] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   you know,   I'm are we still there?   Yeah. We're we're here. We're listening. I I thought it dropped for a second there.   It it it's you know, it's like some guy was asking here, 21 having was asked, what does the case stand for?   I send for profit.   So the beautiful thing about profit and free markets   is that   it it it it's honesty. Right? Like, it's like true fairness in a way.   So   I I I think that's sort of like what Bitcoin does. Right? Like, Bitcoin is not for everybody.   Bitcoin is not for the lazy.   Meritocracy   and free markets are not for the lazy.  

It's also not the perfect answer for everything.   You know, it is a better world. It's not a perfect world.   So,   I I think   if you play the Fiat game, you're fucked no matter what. You're always gonna be fucked,   certainty   getting fucked, Right? At least with Bitcoin,   you have access to the same rules   and the same game.   So, so I just I just hope that we can sort of, like, give that   that opportunity to to some of the kids that that were in this   that were short squeezing Wall Street.   But, you know, you can't save them all. You can't save everybody.  

[01:53:13] Unknown:

I really like this,   from the more economic side   of I think I think it comes up on Save It in podcast sometimes. Like this idea of zombie companies,   and I never really thought a lot about it. But this idea that if your company's,   profits aren't,   beating inflation, or basically if your company's profits aren't beating the Bitcoin price,   you're you're kind of a net negative as far as value generation.   And think of how much money   and resources we commit, like literal manpower, like people work for years years of their lives at companies that are are a a drain on value.   So I would love the I don't know how that could be   memeified. I'm not really very talented in memes, but I would love for that to become kinda obvious to people that how much of the game is, like, is value,   destruct destruction in the in the Fiat economy.  



[01:54:10] Unknown:

Yeah. And how Yeah. So so fiat does like, it distorts   reality. Right?   It it completely distorts reality. So   you you're essentially subsidizing   your mallocating capital.   Right? Malocation of capital is a big deal. Right? Because that was, like, people's time. People worked really hard to fix that. Right? Thinking nature. Right? So it's like if an animal mile locates time, right, by essentially just sunbathing   and not eating enough, it dies.   Mhmm. Right?   So in the markets, if you have malallocation of capital,   you should have companies dying. You should have bad ideas dying,   and and and when they don't because they're subsidized,   right, you're rigging the system.  

You're creating bad sets of incentives. They're gonna probably create even worse set of sets of outcomes that create that then need more,   subsidy, then then create more like, it create the cycles of stupid.   Right? The the cycles of, like, really rotten stuff.   Right? And this translates into everything. Right? Like,   it's actually   a a a great,   a a great way to,   to segue into,   into, like, licenses and things like that because it's all part of the same problem. Oh, hang on a second. Matt is saying, okay. We're cutting it.  

[01:55:35] Unknown:

This is the time now. This is the moment. What's the number? There's truth in the price. No. No. The number happens in 4 minutes. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's right. That's right. But they've been they can never they can't they can't put more.  

[01:55:47] Unknown:

Yeah. That's it. No more chances. No more entries. You put in your tickets.  

[01:55:52] Unknown:

Thank thank you for applying, Freaks. So And, if you haven't, the single most important thing you can do for the show is to retweet the livestream on Twitter.   I appreciate all you Freaks.   We're gonna fucking   we're winning. Be kind, and and show everyone the way. We're gonna fucking do this shit. I got scammed out of 8 minutes.  

[01:56:12] Unknown:

Somebody said   the comments are  

[01:56:15] Unknown:

great. It's so good. Right? This is what the show's about. I love the live comments. Peace, Hillary. You are late. You're that is not counting. Continue. Apologies.  

[01:56:24] Unknown:

No.   I kinda lost my train of thought. But, saying something about licensing?   Yeah. So so, you know, we live in IP   in an IP world. Right? So you have patents, you have licenses, and all this shit.   You know, I'm not a fan of IP. I'm not a fan of licenses and all of this stuff, but   we live in a subsidized   world.   So,   you know, as much as I prefer to make open source things,   I might have competitors that get subsidized   through my location of capital   Mhmm. And then leverage all my my   effort,   and just add a sprinkle of marketing and then try to resell that shit. Right? Dude, dude,  

[01:57:10] Unknown:

I I have solved this problem for you. Don't I I've been thinking a lot about this because I it it kinda bugged me when you changed your license.  

[01:57:18] Unknown:

It bugged me too.  

[01:57:20] Unknown:

Okay. So here's here's because when you when you say that your license isn't permissive, you're saying, I want the government to go arrest people. Like, I want police to go Yes. Should go. Mess with people based on, like, information copying.   Yes. But what if you had a license that's, like, MIT license, but it has an like, an I'm an asshole clause? Yeah. No. That's essentially what we did. And it's just like a public Yeah. That's just what we did. But you're they're completely free to to profit off of it and make a product. It just That's what I'm here. That's yeah. Yeah. So so because you don't want I don't want the the the state to I talked to my lawyer. Right? I have very expensive lawyers,  

[01:57:59] Unknown:

and this is exactly what I wanted to do. I was like, how can I just add   a   a just a term   where if you're a fucking because see, I believe in life, you can be an asshole, but you're not allowed to be a dick?   Okay? That is my rule of life.   So   I explained that to the lawyer, and I said, how can I prevent   dicks, but not assholes? Right? People are entitled to be assholes, but not being a dick,   And he said, Rodolfo,   I'm sorry, but that's not how the court system works.   You have to either very explicitly   create,   a very broad,   capture for   people copying you that are trying to create a clone   by profiting. Right? Or   or you just just and then you can't even quantify or qualify what a clone is. Right?  



[01:58:53] Unknown:

Some people are asking you to define a dick legally.  

[01:58:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. My lawyer was   he said I cannot define that for you, Rodolfo.   So I'm like, okay. Well, then then what's the next best thing? It's like, you know, we wrote we actually spent   a fuck ton of money, and we wrote a whole   new license.   I think Matt's seen it. I did not publish it publicly.   And, but I didn't like the license because it was not permissive enough,   but it did cover our asses very beautifully.   So then what we did is we we went to the next best thing, which was it is MIT,   users are protected. To me, that's the only important thing here.   The people who fucking use the product has essentially all the rights over it.  

Right? They can even sell it to their friend,   But if you wanna create a company around reselling the shit that I made, go fuck yourself.   That's my license.  

[01:59:51] Unknown:

But the but the your license says it doesn't just say go fuck yourself. It says   the the cops are going to  

[01:59:59] Unknown:

help people. But you know what? The cops also created all the printed money for my competitors not to have to put any effort   and create their copy. That's how VC works.  

[02:00:11] Unknown:

Right.  

[02:00:12] Unknown:

So I'm playing their game.   See, they wouldn't be able to raise   on a stupid fucking   this is the best part. The the these these cloners that we have, they have already scammed people out of minors on a shit coining and stuff.   But, hey, they managed to raise again   even with that track record because money is so freely available due to printing.  

[02:00:38] Unknown:

So let's talk about this a little bit. So so we're talking about Foundation Devices.   Foundation Devices,   took took the cold card code,   because it was GPL at the time,   and they they used it. They forked it, and they created a a new hardware wallet,   with the major change being a QR code,   but but QR code as first receiving   and sending,  

[02:01:03] Unknown:

but it it's it's the same code. Right? Yeah. All the Bitcoin stuff. All the all the hard stuff. Right. Actually, all the Bitcoin stuff. So you changed your license They didn't even fix the bugs, by the way.  

[02:01:13] Unknown:

You changed your license too, and this is something that people talk about in the open source world a lot,   and and there's, like, tons of fights about it on what open source is and what open source isn't,   that   you changed your license to obvious users can still   view and verify the license   View and verify the code. The the the source is viewable,  

[02:01:36] Unknown:

but they're not free to use it for profit. No. Wait. Wait. You can use it now. They can do anything. So wait. They can do  

[02:01:45] Unknown:

everything, but  

[02:01:46] Unknown:

Profit. Create a company around it and sell it.  

[02:01:49] Unknown:

And and and and They can even sell it to their friends, by the way. Like Right.   Right. So it's it's it's not it's technically   this is the different the differentiation here for the freaks who are aware is this is the difference between FOSS,  

[02:02:02] Unknown:

you know, free open source software, and open source software. Wait. Wait. No. And and there is more. Okay? There is no  

[02:02:09] Unknown:

there is no legal definition of this shit. We have okay. We have plenty of time. There's no legal definition. We're gonna have a really fucking good time with this. You're my boy. I just want to I just wanna make this clear to the freaks. Okay?   This is the the direction Rodolfo's coming from, and and and, yes, to the freaks that are are watching and participate in the contest, I put the contest prize   price,   on the screen for when it when it hit, 1900   EST.   So I don't know who's closest to that, but that's the price we're using. So whoever is closest to that wins.   The the the the thing the thing that's frustrating   from your perspective,   and I think people don't appreciate this, is that you bootstrapped your company. You made a product   that was the best in class product,   And another person came in who did no work,   took your code,   and then raised VC money off of that code when you never raised any VC money whatsoever. They basically came Oh, no. It's it's worse than that. They deleted your work. Right? They they took  

[02:03:14] Unknown:

our code and then the affinity scammed by saying there was code card based. Right. Because we lost Wait. Wait. No. It gets worse. And that's the worst. It's gonna be good. There is there is some some some reports that they also took the ideas of somebody else who told them what they were about to do.   I I I don't wanna put names out there, but it is a they've been essentially dicks to to us   and another 2 other makers in companies.   They, like they they see, this is the problem. Right?   Some people see open source   as a fucking   free for all shopping cart or shit they can just take, not contribute back. Because see, if they had contributed back, you'd have been fair game.  

Right? Let's say   they came and and, like, they forked the cold card code, and they, like, they fix some bugs, and they wanted to add some stuff, and we didn't wanna add, and they they created their own product. Fair game.   Or let's say they they didn't even wanted to to create a new like, they didn't even wanted to fix bugs. Right? They wanted to add features or or even wanted to spin off into an but they would have had contributed.   There is 0 fucking contributions.   Actually, no. There was one   commit back before they made themselves clear   of a a one character change in a comment   on the cold base.  

So  

[02:04:40] Unknown:

Well, if you're if it's if it's like open so like if I'm running free that's BSD or whatever, the the the one true operating system,   Yep. I don't have I don't have to contribute back the whole point. The whole reason why they made it open source is so I could make my Nintendo switch on it, and it's fine. It does it doesn't bother anybody. Yeah. No. It bothers me. That's why I don't like that.  

[02:05:02] Unknown:

See, I   I personally so so   there's a difference here. Right?   When you're making hardware,   hardware has upfront cost and development, hard science,   and hard cost. Right?   It's   this is maybe why a lot of the software people don't understand this.   There is a lot that has to be done with hard cost, not just opportunity cost,   actual hard dollars that you have to put in to make hardware.   Right?   So   when you can just take all that stuff   without putting anything,   and then you can get VC cash and just build a nicer UI or or just better market, whatever it is. Right?   You you're only benefiting or not putting Unifin back, and this is a 100% my fault. Right? Because, see,   I I had one sort of, like, a very naive, like, view of GPL,   and and and now I I after sort of, like, reflecting a lot about this through this this last year,   I understand now that the problem with GPL is that GPL is a is a commie license.  

Right? Yes. It's a 100% fucking commie. Right? Like, it's a terrible fucking ID.   It has a lot of strings, and it's trying to control everybody through a lawyer. Terrible cops. And the proof is in the pudding. Right?   Every   fucking big corp profits from GPL, but the actual makers.   So Amazon, Google, Microsoft,   all these guys are making a killing on GPL stuff.   All, and then, and then you go look at the GPL,   like people, the actual people on the ground, the contributors they're doing bag wear, right? Where they're like begging for, for contributions.   It's like,   I don't subscribe to that system.  

I'm a Bitcoiner. I'm a for profit person.   I don't believe you can make good things without profit.   Seriously.   It's like  

[02:07:05] Unknown:

it's like it's nice to to have charities and and, like I need to push back a little bit here, Rodolfo. Sure. I appreciate all the work that you and Peter have put in.   I love your wallet.   You know, I'm a   major evangelist of your wallet. I I recommend people,   use it. My my main go to guy, we run bitcoin.com,   suggest people use it.   And I've never taken any, you know I consider you a friend. That's my bias, but I've never taken any financial,   yeah. I've never taken anything financial from you to to dictate that. This is my true opinion.   That being said,   you know,   I think free open source software   is how we win.  



[02:07:51] Unknown:

Yes. Right?  

[02:07:52] Unknown:

And and the problem is you controlling a license   reduces the censorship resistance of the code. Right?   No. So so so so so   to hear someone say   that that that Phos is commie   needs I I can't just sit here and and just have them tell me that that I'm a communist  

[02:08:14] Unknown:

GPO is commie. No. No. No. GPL is commie.   MIT is not.   There's a massive difference. But you don't have to do my math. No. I know. So   free BSD   yeah. I'll get there. So   free BSD that went through OS is BSD license. BSD license is how MIT license came about. Right? It's this idea that, like and that's why Satoshi chose MIT for Bitcoin software, not GPL.   It's because, see, when you are making   protocol   level stuff,   okay,   or or say base layer OS stuff, when you want other people to build shit on top of your stuff, okay, it needs to be MIT.   It needs to be something that people can then build their systems however they want, make the profit however they want. It's important. Satuwichi understood that for the Bitcoin core client as well.  

Now,   when you're building hardware,   it's a whole different,   like, problem. Right? Like,   you can't live   bound by   just a license because, like, you have to pay for the harder development somehow,   but it has to be for profit. Hardware non for profit doesn't exist.   Even Raspberry Pi makes profit.   Okay. It's it's it's impossible   for you to do   things that have upfront   hard cost   without profit,   and this is why it's so important. And and  

[02:09:50] Unknown:

the people making I would even I would even agree to the point. I I I agree, And I would also agree to the point that I think it's hard to make good software without profit too. Yeah. No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Won't even go there. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Like, I I believe everybody should be doing shit for profit. I'm I'm a huge everybody should be for profit.  

[02:10:10] Unknown:

I I I just think that there is a difference. Right?   So if you wanna build a library because   a a piece of software bugs you,   you can just you can code it. It's an opportunity time cost problem.   That's the main difference. When you wanna make hardware, you have to actually buy test equipment, you have to buy stuff   from other people. It's not just sit and put in your time. That's like it it and it's a big difference there. There's a sunk cost. There's sunk cost. And now like heavy r and d cost. And and I still don't I I still don't think there is a good solution. Like, nobody see, for software,   for as much grief as there is between the the free BST people and the GPL people, or the MIT people and the GPL people,   there is at least 2 options, right, on how to see the world.  

For hardware, there isn't.   There is no   good way   of of of,   we at least we haven't found it.   A more   most satisfying way of of solving this this licensing issue. Right? Which is interesting because, like, when the cloners showed up,   I I was actually very surprised because I learned about them from, Marty's podcast   because he he was he was I know your podcast is Marty, but it was just him at the pod.  

[02:11:37] Unknown:

There's there's like a there's there's gonna be thousands of listeners who are listening to this   on me and Marty's podcast feed.  

[02:11:44] Unknown:

Yeah. So For what it worth, Rodolfo.  

[02:11:47] Unknown:

Right. Right. Right. Right. But, yes, I was not a part of that specific episode. I was not a part of that specific episode. So so I heard about it, and I was like, holy shit.  

[02:11:56] Unknown:

So so it's like   what's interesting to me is if they had reached out   before early or just announce announcing their intentions,   And,   you know, like, to me, the best solution to all this stuff is to just have a licensing deal, right, where you figure out some dollar amount that that solves the the   original r and d problem. That's how you do between   grown ups. Right?   You you come up with a solution that way. You figure out a a happy medium where everybody wins   in dollar terms. Right? And then the incentive continues.  

[02:12:36] Unknown:

I mean, like because, like, in your defense, I mean, if if if this,   technically, the license says no commercial   usage, but, like,   if I was, like, making   off the shelf cold cards, you know, in my spare time and I was selling, like, 10 or 15 and I wasn't, like, taking VC money, like, you're not gonna, like, come at the person. No. I would actually grant them a final to, like, overprotect yourself to make sure that if someone comes in and they're trying to VC it. Right? So what a lot of people maybe not know,  

[02:13:07] Unknown:

I I think you do is that cold card started   as essentially a non for profit project on our end because all the other wallets were garbage.   Like but then we we sort of realized, even though we were already making harder, that, like, we couldn't make hardware because you're gonna have your, like, insufferable competitors trying to break your shit and make PR moves on you all day   without a reasonable amount of profit.   Right? Like, you have to keep like, you need the profit to keep the development going.   So   so anyways, like, it's all been, like, a very interesting learning exercise.  

And I think   so far, the best balance I could find   was MIT with commercial   restrictions. So users are protected.   We are protected.   And then   as people wanna do stuff, we can sort it out. Right? At least we have,   like, a a a defense to sort it out,   Because, again, people have access to subsidized   Fiat World   Finance.  

[02:14:15] Unknown:

What if someone came at you and said, hey. We've got we've got some of this sweet Fiat VC money, and we want the the put, like, 2 developers full time   on improving your firmware, but we wanna use your firmware   in our device. Wonderful.  

[02:14:30] Unknown:

We can come up with a dollar amount of licensing fees and everybody wins.   It's like it's that simple. Like, none see, a lot of this stuff is new for   crypto Twitter kinda thing,   and I say crypto Twitter as a definite the it's a   it's   a not nines term,  

[02:14:54] Unknown:

or a Bitcoin Twitter as well. Yeah. It's like an air crypto. I just wanted to it can kill you. So  

[02:15:00] Unknown:

it's derogatory.   It's like none of this shit is new. I thought we were friends. Yeah.   None of this stuff is new. Licensing is not new and is not pejorative. That's how, like, free market works.  

[02:15:13] Unknown:

Like No. It's not it's not pejorative, but but in Bitcoin,   the the state solving your problem is kind of a pejorative.  

[02:15:21] Unknown:

No. I agree. But then again so so so this is the problem that I have with all the LARPing libertarians with the no IP stuff. Right? Okay. Cool.   So do you know what the life the what the true libertarian solution is for IP?   You have trade secrets,   right?   You cannot have trade secrets in open source.   Right. It's retarded. Those two things are completely   antithetical.   I'd rather be able to view the code Yeah. Than have it be freely usable. So so this is this is how you work. Right? So, you know, back in and and a lot of these ideas came back in the day before they had, like, you know, a spectrum analysis of materials. Right?   So back in the day, you have your, you know, your Coca Cola formula. Your competitors cannot figure out for the life of them. Right? Nowadays, you put it in a machine and it comes out.  

Like, they'll tell you which atoms of what to put in and then you have Coca Cola. Right? So, like, trade secrets are not realistic in the world that we live in.   So so like so so what do we do? Like,   it's not like it's not like we have, like, a a right answer yet. So you have in in one and and by the way,   the state is who defends   open source too because open source is a state defended license.  

[02:16:42] Unknown:

Well, but MIT is saying  

[02:16:44] Unknown:

MIT is saying don't don't sue me. Mhmm. You're you're just trying to I'm talking about GPL. Sorry. GPL is a 100 percent I agree with defended license. Why? I absolutely agree. Because because without the state, you don't have a license, Matt.  

[02:17:00] Unknown:

But but the license is anyone can use it for anything. But it doesn't matter. No. With, like, a 1000000 caveats, there's, like, a ton of stuff stuff that you can't do. It it's trying left. Yeah. It's trying to make the fact that I worked on this as an open source be somehow viral,   And, like, the wet dream of of a GPL person is that they, like, oops, tricked Google into, like, open sourcing  

[02:17:25] Unknown:

something that they didn't intend to open source or Exactly. And and then Google goes and creates a farm of servers that they charge $10,000   a month,   and they figure out the loophole and how they don't have to do anything.   All this bullshit,   like, it's   like it's an unsolved problem   that people think it is. Like, people love fucking larp around GPL, but this is such a good conversation.  

[02:17:52] Unknown:

I I would I would say I'm I'm LARPing a little bit in the sense of, like, I want information to be, like, maximally free, and I definitely don't want the state to be involved. And I also   have not successfully created a company   to to to,   to support me in those,   great endeavors. So, like, you know, I've got a I've got   great great ideas for the future of humanity, but it's it's a little harder to obviously do it. I I my my my my, my thing to the people who have a problem with our licenses,  

[02:18:24] Unknown:

do this for me. Okay? Create something   and then get a few $1,000,000,   spend on it, and then see somebody else copy it,   and then you come talk to me.   It's very simple. It's like all this stuff is, like, very sort of, like, up in the air when you're sort of theorizing about, you know, do you want the commie GPL   with the state helping you maintain it, or do you want the MIT stuff? Or do you want,   trade secrets when it's closed source?   But then once you start actually trying to solve the problems, this shit is not simple.   There is no good solution   for a reason, because it's it's actually complicated.  



[02:19:11] Unknown:

Maybe maybe trades,   maybe trade secrets would be would be a cool world. Like, everybody,   there'd be a real arms race of reverse engineering technology. And so that you could kind of more democratize these tools to, like, figure out what the hell is actually in your hand when you have a piece of  

[02:19:29] Unknown:

People do that, dude. Dude, carmakers   buy each other's cars and disassemble them to the last boat   in specific facilities.  

[02:19:39] Unknown:

I just think I think it's funny that,   I mean, it's just so human   that   we have these debates in open source circles.   But real the overwhelming majority of of   code we run is not source viewable.   Like,   the single biggest improvement we can make for humanity on a on a code level is just if if just everything defaulted   to source viewable at least Mhmm.   As the default. Right?   Like, I I   Yeah. But you can't. Right? It blows my mind it blows my mind that the president of the United States is running a phone that we just don't you know? But, you know, but again There's even no way. Going on in there. How are you gonna do open source if you can't monetize? Like No. That's what I'm saying, though, Rodel.  

[02:20:28] Unknown:

Take the bone. I'm giving you No. No. No. I I get it. I get it. Sorry. I'm just What about the the voting machines? Right? I'm just riffing on that. We're never gonna convince,  

[02:20:37] Unknown:

Diebold,   that that or whatever however you pronounce their name to to   to to free open source software their their,   you know, Libre open source their their voting machines because they're they'd that's their business. Like, they don't want you to just create new voting machines from off the shelf parts.   So But it but but   we can absolutely require that they let us view the source. Like, we should be able like, it's everything should be sourced viewable.  

[02:21:05] Unknown:

So I I I, a 100% agree. And by the way, this is why Trezor,   for all their virtual signaling,   when b wallet came out,   Trezor changed their license to Microsoft,   restricted license,   which is essentially   a reference license. Right? You can't even do anything as a user with it, but you can look at the source code, and then they roll back the repo.   The history is somewhere. If you go, search on on Reddit, you'll see it,   and then they changed it to GPL,   because   they got too much community, like, pushback   at a time.   So   it's like most makers,   of hardware understand that, like,   you you will bump into these issues. Right? It's not a simple thing,   and and and you need to find paths of profit because,   see, when you're making a cool little thing just yourself at home,   sure,   that that it makes it's just so obvious to you that that should be open source and everybody's should be open source too. Right?  

But once you start having to pay a lot of people to do a lot of things,   you say, like, holy fuck. Like, I I need to   to   have, like, ownership of this thing so that I can afford to keep it, say, secure.   Right? The the security comes from the profit.   It sounds insane, but that's literally where it comes from. Right? The more profit you have, the more you can invest in r and d to be safer. Right? I mean, aside from nefarious assholes out there. Right?   Like, full of it. Like, you be So Apple Apple makes the most secure things because they make them a profit. But, like,   Apple stuff Yeah. For for all their flaws, right, that you might not be safe against Apple or against the state,   it's fairly secure.  

Like, you don't hear about people getting viruses on Macs.  

[02:23:08] Unknown:

I think I I mean, I feel like there is something to some level of monopoly profits being helpful, and then there's also   a a a kind of some I don't know if it's turnover point or just a tendency, but when you have a monopoly, you can also get lazy. Oh, yeah. A 100%. Like, remember, when I talk about Apple, it's up until Steve Jobs died.  

[02:23:28] Unknown:

That that's when Apple ended. I'm just enjoying the last little bit of Theo here.  

[02:23:33] Unknown:

He won his war against  

[02:23:36] Unknown:

No. I mean, like, dude had a heart. I mean, like, you know, for all his fucking, like like,   evilness and all things, like, you know, that that he he he had a vision of a product that he wanted to make. Agree with the product or not. He wanted to make a thing, and I have a lot of respect for people that wanna make a thing.   It's it's it's hard to make a thing that ships to people physically, and then it works.   I think we can all agree that it's very hard to make a living. It's not. You know? Well I know it's I'll take a simple problem, but it's not I'm I'm just so dumb. There's only one person in this conversation who's made a thing and shipped it to people. I've made software that is like, it's hard to make it's hard to make software and ship it to people. So Oh, and see I make shows and ship them to people. You know what? I find it funny. It's like because, like,   I I for me, like, cold card was a huge upgrade   from OpenDime because at least with cold card, I can upgrade.  

If there is bugs, I can upgrade. Like, with Opendigm, it's not field upgradable.   So, like, you know what? It's a feature. Not a bug. Exactly. Right? So but we were, like, we have to really get this right.  

[02:24:49] Unknown:

That's true. That's true. You cannot have bugs.   Hard to the 61 or 2 is trolling you. The mark 1 did not work.  

[02:24:59] Unknown:

Wow. He has fat fingers.  

[02:25:01] Unknown:

Oh, no. It did not work. I still own I own 5 of them. I thought I was gonna multi sig a mark 1. Like, are you fucking kidding me?   Who is that? The mark one had the the mark one had many problems. The the touch The touch buttons were like you thought you were you thought you were fucking Tim Apple, and you thought you can make a touch button. No. So so so the capacitive  

[02:25:22] Unknown:

touch  

[02:25:23] Unknown:

the capacitive touch I love other freaks. Other freaks are every there's like the best inside freak joke ever is the mark ones. Oh, I know. Because, like, every single freak has has the mark ones just sitting in their fucking closet doing fucking shit off because we cannot That that shit's gonna be worth so much money in, like, 50 years from now.   M p blazer is asking for 6102 to be on the show. 6102 does not dox his voice. If you wanna hear him, you have to go on to the Stephane Lovers podcast,   and he did he did his one appearance was there. Otherwise, you have to listen,   weekly at Citadel Dispatch,   Tuesdays,   5 PM EST or 22100   UTC,   because he will join us in the comments. So he is he is part of this show. He is a Oh, do we have some part of this show? What? Do we have some 60102   questions? Oh, yeah. We we he's he's been participating this whole time, which has been fantastic. No. I know. But do we have some, like, official questions? He's he's been very critical of you this this entire this entire But that's why I was ignoring the the feed. He wants to know what you consider a remote  

[02:26:35] Unknown:

possibility of Wikipedia. There's a Wikipedia definition of this because the Wikipedia is law.  

[02:26:44] Unknown:

So what do you mean by that? So, I mean, so do you think the disclosure today was a remote  

[02:26:51] Unknown:

exploit? No.  

[02:26:52] Unknown:

But By definition and and   we know Max Flaxman likes his definitions, and he agrees with me.  

[02:27:00] Unknown:

Michael Michael Flaxman. Mike Michael Flaxman.  

[02:27:05] Unknown:

No. Seriously. It wasn't. Because, like, there is no Yeah. That's on this. It's not a remote retrieval from the device or any of that shit. Right? It's like   you have a virus on your electrum, and then your electrum tries to produce some fucking evil address, and it's probably only   on the on the change address or some weird shit like that. It's like,   dude,   there is a reason this shit doesn't happen in the wild is because, like,   it's really fucking hard to pull it off,   and it is actually not remote.   The cold card is cold.   It's not even fucking connected.  



[02:27:45] Unknown:

Well, no. So so the what they're saying is if you if you compromise the the computer that's coordinating the transaction, that's where   right?   Yeah. But how did the code card get owned? Okay. So 61 and 2 is asking, so what would a remote exploit look like if if if that's the definition?  

[02:28:02] Unknown:

So you would be, like, way back in the day, for example, when, people were doing like, there was a guy who did a power analysis on a on a trezor over the USB port,   so he was able to see the trezor doing the private key calculation,   and because it was connected,   you could   take that back. So say, this is very hard, say you managed to get a computer to do something on a hardware wallet   through the USB, but then you took the results of that, right, so you were able to retrieve the attack results through the network   from the hardware wallet.  



[02:28:48] Unknown:

So   in in this situation, the hardware wallet is not connected via   it it's connected via USB. Right?   Yeah. So so, like So so so so any vulnerability that goes to the SD card isn't remote is what you're saying? Exactly. Right? So let me put it this way. There is a reason why,  

[02:29:06] Unknown:

like,   say, like, nuclear power plants  

[02:29:10] Unknown:

are Oh, yeah. So so so SM has SM has a good point in the comments.   Shout out to the freak SM.   So are you saying that a cold card that is being used air gapped with an SD card,   it it's impossible for it to be to to be vulnerable to any remote exploit?   Any exploit that happens is a local exploit. Yeah. So so  

[02:29:33] Unknown:

in regards to exfiltrations of secrets off the cold card, yes. Right? It's impossible because the cold card is not connected unless, say, like, it's some RF crazy shit. Right? Say somebody figure out a way of shooting,   RF   into your basement while you're wearing your your tinfoil underwear,   and somehow they managed to to do some shit to its side channel. Right? Like,   completely air gapped.   Nothing is impossible.   Most things are unlikely.  

[02:30:08] Unknown:

What? Wait. Wait. I I haven't really been following this drama, but I'm just gonna throw one in there. What if somebody   wrote a file to the SD card such that when the cold card tries to read it, it rewrites the cold card   firmware and then exfiltrates   the pub key. And then when you plug the SD card back into the computer,   then that gets uploaded by whatever virus did that. If someone was   completely if someone who wrote that, you know, was in China Wait. Wait. So that wouldn't be a network exploit?  

[02:30:37] Unknown:

So that wouldn't be a remote exploit  

[02:30:41] Unknown:

first. Even if the person who wrote the virus was No. Because,  

[02:30:45] Unknown:

like, would you consider Stuxnet a a a remote exploit?  

[02:30:51] Unknown:

Yeah. Yes.  

[02:30:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, it it No. It's not. By definition, it's not over the network.  

[02:30:57] Unknown:

No.  

[02:30:58] Unknown:

No. No. No. No. No. So you guys are making the story? It's a very it's a very good story. Read the fucking book. Okay.  

[02:31:07] Unknown:

So, the Iranians  

[02:31:09] Unknown:

This is why we dispatch freaks. So so the Iranians understood that everybody was going to try to fuck with their, like,   between quotes,   just nuclear power projects.   Right?   So so what they did is they have no network access to them. So what they do is they do sneaker net.   So he took the fucking CIA and the Israelis   a monumental amount of fucking work to get a USB drive to fucking go into a plant. And by the way, USB is a cluster fuck. I have a presentation on that in VR.   What does that mean? The the the VR thing with the with Udi? Yeah. With Voovi. I I Remember when he pretended he was gonna leave Twitter? I know.   I anyways, if you wanna too addicted. If you wanna understand how bad USB is in a in a light matter, that presentation is great for that.  

So, anyways,   so it's you cannot so let let me put it this way. The the way I like to choose to just explain simply   a network exploit, a remote exploit is synchrony.   Right?   Can you synchronously   retrieve   your attack?   Yes or no? No. You can't without a fucking wire. Okay. Period. Fair. You just can't. It's not synchronous.   Right? You have to you have to be lucky as an attacker   that the victim   does not have  

[02:32:40] Unknown:

fail safe keeping me Once Stuxnet hit hit the open waters, it was just on its own. There was no   there was no remote control or anything that was happening. It was just going crazy. It was not a remote exploit. And they even say they say, like, it fucked up. Right? Like, it attacked a bunch of systems. It shouldn't have. It should've just attacked the Iranian   nuclear facilities.  

[02:33:02] Unknown:

When you have a remote exploit, you have no control.   Right. Okay. So is it but it is fucking important. Like words are important.   Right? Definitions are important, and and it matters because,   like  

[02:33:16] Unknown:

But you could you could you could do this exploit they talked about today   in in the disclosure. You could do that with with,   you know, centralized control.   You could you could do that with centralized control. Yes. Because there was a bug  

[02:33:31] Unknown:

on cold card on how cold card You'd comp you'd try to compromise, like, a Spectre or something. Exactly. You'd have you have to essentially compromise   Specter or Elector or,   or Elector or something.   Yeah. To   lie to the cold card. Right. Because the cold card was not checking it properly.   So it's not even like the cold card was not compromised.  

[02:33:56] Unknown:

So we do agree that it is remote exploit. I don't even know 61 or 2, what do you do you think it's an a remote exploit or not a remote exploit? Because the cold card was not remotely export exploited.  

[02:34:08] Unknown:

It kinda was. No. It was the fucking wallet. It  

[02:34:12] Unknown:

Hey. I'm on Wikipedia.  

[02:34:14] Unknown:

Yep. It  

[02:34:15] Unknown:

says a remote exploit works over network and exploits the security vulnerability without any prior access to the vulnerable system.   A local exploit requires prior access to the vulnerable system and usually increases the privileges of the person running the exploit past those granted by the system administrator.  

[02:34:36] Unknown:

Yep.   Yeah. So 6102 thinks this is a remote exploit.  

[02:34:41] Unknown:

Well, he can come on the show and talk back to me.  

[02:34:45] Unknown:

If you wanna listen to 6102, the only time he's ever spoken   was on Stefan Lovera's podcast, so you have to go listen to that.  

[02:34:53] Unknown:

I find this all funny and hilarious, by the way, because there's no money lost. Right. Right. And there is not even   a speck of a hint of   any of this shit ever have been Well, this is the thing. Brought it in the wild. And this is why this is why I bought it. So irritating. I I don't bring things up,  

[02:35:11] Unknown:

for no reason. You know? I,   time is money and money is Bitcoin, so, like, I'm not trying to waste the freak's time because I don't wanna waste their Bitcoin. This this is this is what I,   you know, I've dedicated my life to.   The low hanging fruit, like if you're gonna start changing receive addresses   No. Coinbase   or like Kraken or some shit. No. No. Right? Like, why what if you can start changing receive addresses on people, they do way more volume than any of these fucking open source software,   and and and it's way low hanging fruit. It's super easy. It's it's way easier.   Threat model if you threat model it out, it's way easier to change a frame   on on your coin based deposit address   than it is to change it on a cold card. Okay. Go back for a second here.  



[02:36:07] Unknown:

Okay.   In this case,   for cold card,   to be remote, like so the cold card here had a bug that's being exploited   by a Electrum   or a Spectre that got hacked.   Like, this is   the main, like, difference here is the cold card being cold is not getting hacked so   ever.   So in many Being fed, it's being fed raw information, and then it all we were not checking for. It doesn't it doesn't catch it. Right. And most hardwalls don't even check at all.  

[02:36:47] Unknown:

I know. This is one of so first of all, to the listeners who aren't,   watching the feed,   6102 wants everyone to know that he doesn't know whether it's a remote exploit or not. That's why he asked.   He's my boy, so I think he thinks it was a remote exploit, but whatever.   I don't appreciate you not taking   a position   because I have to take positions every day.   The   yeah. I I I agree. I I think I think one of the things people don't realize with the cold card   is the cold card, we we see more   so called vulnerabilities of the cold card because it has so many more features   than any other fucking competitor device has. Like, the the competitor devices aren't vulnerable because they haven't even attempted to try and solve the problem. Like, they they're not even they're not even they're not even offering you the capability of fucking yourself because you're not even close to it. They're not they're not even   they're playing up just a whole different game. And it's fucking irritating.  



[02:37:54] Unknown:

It's like nobody's fucking checking for this shit.   Yeah. And and the competitor just say, oh, look. You know, we we CallCard has this problem.   We check for it. Yeah. What when did you start checking for it?   You just find out about this problem.   It's it's all, like, silly. Right? It's like things that people have not exploited, and and   realistically,   you could say, hey.   Why did the signing coordinator get hacked?   Why should that be my problem?   Well, isn't that the whole point of a cold card? Is that it's easier to hack your desktop computer? Telling me to sign some shit and I have the key to sign some shit, I should just sign it. Right? You're the boss. Having Paul here.  

[02:38:45] Unknown:

I don't know what this actual exploit is, so I don't I don't know what see the exploit?  

[02:38:49] Unknown:

No. What so you're so it's offering you something to sign, and you're signing it. The exploit the exploit is that the wrong thing? Yeah. They give you the wrong keys. They give you the the the quorum keys. So, like, if it's, like, a 2 of 3, they give you, like, 2 wrong keys. So, like, the 3rd key was right, but it didn't matter because they control the 2 2 keys   Mhmm. That that are needed to spend the funds.   And, obviously,   we've seen with these other disclosures in the past and other   perspective,   tax, you could have a situation where it's like a hostage situation where, like, no one can   spend. Oh, I I get this. And then and then the the the attacker's like, if you want to spend this, then you have to pay me money. Otherwise, we're just gonna let the Bitcoin sit there in the By the way, I I have 3 or something.  



[02:39:38] Unknown:

I have let's talk about disclosures in general. Okay. I have a new term for the shift, guys. I call them salty cunts. Okay. So so you're not paying them bug bounties. No. If you're an competitor One one second. One second. One second, Rodolfo.  

[02:39:54] Unknown:

I love you,   but, shut the fuck up.   So so you're you're not giving them a bug bounty.   In the space, people are like   in the space in general,   the the general consensus is you offer people money to tell you if there's an issue and you pay them, and then you find out about more issues.   Right? That's the general consensus.   I think the logic pretty much,   you know, pans out.   Explain to the freaks why you won't pay a Shift crypto employee,   makers of a competitor hardware while at the Bitbox,   a a bounty when they disclose these   vulnerabilities.  



[02:40:37] Unknown:

So   it's not my job to subsidize   their   company. Right? This is a failing company. These guys were liquidated just a few months ago.   And,   see, you may look   from   the PR perspective   that, you know, these guys are just earnestly   looking for bugs. Right?   But   the problem is   a lot of these guys will come up with a feature,   let's say, a security feature,   and then they will go look at the competitors that don't have the security feature yet.   Right?   And then they will say, well, that's a bug,   and that's a flaw and that's here's my risk responsible disclosure and you clearly have a hole. Right?   It creates a wrong sense of the incentives.  

See, if you are a competitor   and you want to responsibly   disclose because you get all the PR,   then by all means, do it. Just don't expect money. It's little money anyways for competitor   sort of sake. Right?   It's a lot of money if you're independent researcher.  

[02:41:54] Unknown:

Independent researchers, definitely who you are. I mean I mean,  

[02:41:59] Unknown:

like, Google has massive huge bug bounties. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Apple offers $1,000,000   for a remote exploit.  

[02:42:06] Unknown:

And and one of the cool things is,   is the free market bug bounties,   where you can, like, kind of,   the the more money offered for a particular platform, 0 day,   basically signifies   in a free market way, like, that platform is more secure because people are are are more willing to pay for it. Right? You want a good example. It's like, Trezor pays everybody, and the thing is Swiss cheese.   So  

[02:42:34] Unknown:

That's slow. Great. So that doesn't pan out, does it? We we we gotta be I I think 6 to 102 makes a good point. It was above Cold card is now better as a result. So Oh, I agree. And they got some PR.  

[02:42:46] Unknown:

So but you are gonna fix this. Oh, it's already being fixed. It fixed in January. It was fixed in January. 2 months. No. But I I lost a fucking time now. 2 months, 3 months. Okay. So it's already being fixed. We we fixed everything. We know. So so, I mean, basically, where the argument comes down to between 6102   and Rodolfo is where they decided,   so so so 6102   said, don't pay bug bounties.   Expect expect disclosures to turn into PR moves because that's how they incentivize their bug bounty. Do that anyway. Wait. Wait. Tamay. Tamay. Shut the fuck up. The the the   the the the the argument that Rodolfo's making is it was already a PR move before he didn't pay the bug bounty.  

The the the the basically, what the argument comes down to is did Rodolfo create the situation where he wasn't paying the bug bounty so then the only other incentive was a PR move or was the incentive the PR move the whole fucking time. Right? They already knew this because they've already this is what? The 3rd time?  

[02:43:47] Unknown:

I I don't know. I lost count. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know.   Not the kind of stuff that I keep in mind.   But these guys, like, they create, and and and they exaggerate on everything.   It's like, it's so unnecessary.   Right? So listen, if you want the PR cookie points, enjoy it, but don't expect me to give you any money. I don't deal with terrorists.  

[02:44:12] Unknown:

Right. They're gonna like, let's be honest. Like, let's let's be logical, Bitcoiners. Like, Shift crypto is going to continue   to disclose   cold card vulnerabilities   regardless if he pays a bug bounty or not. No. That's their business model now. That's what they do for 62 is asking if you ever paid a bug bounty to a Bitbox dev.   No. And I won't. Have you have you ever I'm gonna extend, like, have you ever paid a bug bounty, period? Yes. We have. To who?  

[02:44:41] Unknown:

To,   say what's his name?  

[02:44:45] Unknown:

Salim?  

[02:44:46] Unknown:

No.   What's the name? Foundation. I feel bad now. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Lazy Ninja. Lazy Ninja, yes, we have.   And there's been other. There's been other. True freak. True freak. Lazy Ninja. Everyone go follow him. No. He's got some cash, but I've we've paid other people.   See, the thing is and this is the thing. Okay? He pays people so often, he remembers their name.   I love you. If you wanna be a fucking professional   researcher.   Okay? There is a thing called CVE.   Okay? You fucking go and you create a goddamn CVE entry.   If you're not creating a CV, you're not a pro   because   you think   a few times already.  

He completely exposed   HWI. He exposed a bunch of other projects as well.   Like,   you can't just have this sort of, like, little emotional,   the palms of other big wallets and all this shit. Stop with all this crap. Grow the fuck up. Okay? Create a CV,   Tell the affected parties that you know of. Maybe get some money from them.   The users are safe that way. The parties that are not necessarily   in your,   in your view will also get visibility,   and then they will also fix it.   This shit has other people,   as collateral.   Is a problem.  

There was a poor guy who, who came up with a it was a pretty, like like, out there kinda bug. He did create a CV.   The guy who who found that, like, you know, all the harder walls were exposed   to, to essentially,   RF exfiltration   of stuff from the screen.   Right.   That guy I mean, that guy got pushed away by everybody as soon as he.   And and he was the only guy who made a CVE.  

[02:47:07] Unknown:

So it's just kinda sad. So wait. So so explain the CVE process. Let's explain the CVE process, the freaks.  

[02:47:14] Unknown:

So   you you go to the website.   Can't even remember. So it's essentially   cv.mitre.org.   Cv just means common vulnerability   and exposures,   and and you create,   essentially   a report there   of all the parties that could be affected by something   without releasing the actual exploit.   Right? Because the idea here is   you let everybody   fix it,   even the people you don't know that has the problem to fix it,   before   the bad guys know, or before   you think the bad guys know   about a certain exploit,   and there is a formal process to to handle that.   And this process exists because, like,   having bugs and having exploits is not a new problem. It just seems new for Bitcoin Twitter.  



[02:48:19] Unknown:

So, like, do you have any do you have any complaints about that process? You think the c v CVE process is a solid process?  

[02:48:25] Unknown:

No. I mean, I I don't need the service CVE. And because it's centralized. Right? Yeah. Sure. But then but then what you do is I don't know. Send a send a an email to the mailing list of Bitcoin saying, hey.  

[02:48:37] Unknown:

I think I I have a bug that that I mean, should you do that though? Like, you should be a little bit more discreet with it. Right? No. Not necessarily.  

[02:48:45] Unknown:

Depending like, if it's a complex attack,   just saying say, for example,   hey.   I have, I have a I have a a vulnerability   on,  

[02:48:57] Unknown:

hardware wallets. So the most recent inflation bug, didn't we discover we discovered that based   on a someone   told told the developer like,   key main core developers told them about that. Right?  

[02:49:13] Unknown:

Yes.  

[02:49:14] Unknown:

Like, through, like, PGP or something. I already sent it. No. That's listen. That's our process. Right? If you want response  

[02:49:20] Unknown:

responsibilities close to Coincut,   we have   a a page.   It's coinkite.com/responsibly   responsible   dash disclosure,   where we explain the whole process. Right?   Remember, we get   100   of, like, absolute crap,   Like,   oh, your button on your store doesn't work. Do I get a bounty? But   no. Seriously.   Like like, seriously, I get, like, 20 of those a month.  

[02:49:52] Unknown:

Well, I I I think it's interesting the thing you were saying earlier just, like, what's the difference between a bug report and kind of a feature request? Like, some some going like, going further to do more verification versus, like, oh, you're doing this verification wrong. No. To be fair, in this specific case,  

[02:50:11] Unknown:

we were checking for things, but we were, like, we we we had   the best way to say is a bug, but it wasn't sort of a bug. It just wasn't checked right. We were believing   the XFP.   Right? The the the the ID,   like, the short version of the ID   of the wallet.   It was a 100% of our fault.   But,   I I think it was as usual by these   people completely blown out of proportion   and then   spun as we don't pay bound. Like, I mean, listen. It was like PR terrorism.   Like, it really was.   Like like the last time.   But   but aside from that, and this is gonna keep on happening forever. Right? We handle money, and and people have, like   like 1,000,000,000 of dollars in our devices,   so it's expected. It comes to the territory, and this is not new to us. We've been doing this for like   essentially a decade now.  

So  

[02:51:23] Unknown:

what I say to You gotta you gotta rewrite it and rest.  

[02:51:28] Unknown:

Right. Because that that's gonna fix everything.  

[02:51:31] Unknown:

Exactly. It's all types.  

[02:51:33] Unknown:

I see it.   That solves all the problems. Right?   No. It it's just, like,   it's just so unnecessary.   Like, I I I feel like they haven't got the memo that that competitors attacking competitors in the hardware wallet space   with with, like, poor   PR   does not sell it. It used to be a good quality marketing tactic. Right? Like, I mean, Ledger has made a business out of it, but they were doing hardcore stuff too, which is totally   fair.   I mean, they spent $1,000,000   breaking our device.   Pretty cool.   But, like,   you you can't do this forever. I mean, people the the market gets tired of certain marketing,   like,   tactics. Right? So I I think these guys need to pivot to just making a better product maybe,   like, stop being dicks.  

That also helps.   Like, as   a dude puts it on Twitter, good energy, good profit, bad energy, bad profit.   Never heard I've never heard that one. Yeah. I don't know. It was the 1st day to day to be Rodolfo hears it because  

[02:52:51] Unknown:

it's literally someone commenting on this exact situation. So so both me and Rodolfo were tagged in that one. I I saw it as That was a good one. It was a good one. I agree. I I it was a it was a it was a good one. I mean,   we're talking about a product that hasn't launched yet. You know? So I I   I I don't believe that people should be talking about things that don't exist.   We should wait we should wait till they exist   is, like, a general premise that I have, especially during bull markets because there's a lot of things that people are gonna ask your opinion on,   that don't exist and will never exist.  



[02:53:27] Unknown:

Wasn't that wasn't that device supposed to ship for the holidays? You know,  

[02:53:34] Unknown:

I never promoted Butterfowl Labs, you know, and so I never promoted this either,   and I'll I'll see when it launches.   So,   new topic. New topic.   This is great fucking conversate. This is, like, this is this is what the dispatch is about.   You freaks in that are watching this live, any freak that is really that is that is participating in this show right now,   we are fucking   winning. Like, this is crazy.   It is absolutely insane to me,   that those other people that aren't listening don't realize what the fuck is going on right now. How is how is that happening?   We need to take advantage of that as much as possible.  

So Big point. More memes. More caps, more memes. Let's go meme squeeze, memesqueeze.com.   There there's nothing there right now. I don't know what to put there. I I just own it.   The important thing is that that that you shouldn't watch Bloomberg.   But,   Taproot.  

[02:54:43] Unknown:

So Wait. Wait. Wait. Before we go to Taproot,   just one moment. Go to,   output descriptors.   Oh, yeah. So let's talk about output descriptors. You wanna talk about that? Yeah. Sure. Just press that. Show show us show us why we should care. Okay. So output descriptors.   Okay. You guys know I made,   wallets   recovery.org.   Right? Because   every widow   that have contacted our support system because their husbands did not back up their systems and they lost all their money,   there's been a lot of them,   was pissing me off, so while it's recovery.org   has the And dotcom. You have both. Yeah. Of course. But the the dot org is a good one. The dotcom just reroutes, just forwards.  

It, it has the the the derivation paths. Right? Because   hey. Great. Wonderful. You have the private key now. Oh, hey. Where the fuck is the Bitcoin? Well, that's the path now. Right? You have to find out what where the fuck the money is in the the the space.   So output descriptors,   solve a lot of the the standard problems.   The descriptors essentially   are a very basic programming language.   Don't look at that way. It look more like it's like a formula,   describing   how to look for the space   where the Bitcoins are.   Key thing here is if there is a BIP, no, sorry, there's no BIP, but there is already docs. It's part of Bitcoin core,   is a standard. Everybody   agreed.  

There's no changes coming probably for a while,   so everybody should be supporting it as a way to import and export.   This does not affect them. They just need to not be lazy and support it. So the wallet is supported now, our Bitcoin core, cold card, Specter, Sparrow,   Nunchuk,   blue wallet limited support, bit pay sorry. BTC pay limited support.   That's it.   This shit solves all the fucking derivation problems.   So,   the website   I created until I put the stuff on wallets recovery dotorg for now is gonna be output   descriptors.org.  

Shame.  

[02:57:11] Unknown:

The only person in Bitcoin that hoards more domains than than I do.  

[02:57:17] Unknown:

It's a it's a worth $10 meme.   Seriously,   shame.  

[02:57:23] Unknown:

Shame the fuck of every wallet that does not support Until I figure it out until I figure it out, I'll redirect memesqueeze.com   to it as well.  

[02:57:33] Unknown:

Perfect.   It's way more   rememberable than output this matters.org.  

[02:57:44] Unknown:

I'll put my domain towards the Anyways,  

[02:57:47] Unknown:

shame the wallets  

[02:57:48] Unknown:

that don't support output descriptors into supporting it. Or just don't we just won't use those wallets. Exactly, but tell them by shaming them on Twitter. All the wallets I use are on there except for just samurai. Samurai is the only one, and and they don't really need. They're just,   they're No. They're they're only No.  

[02:58:07] Unknown:

There is no little because today's $10 on samurai   is 10 years from now $1,000,000.   So  

[02:58:14] Unknown:

every wallet should support output descriptors. But I remember I remember Coinbase Coinbase gave me 10,000,000 sats,   to sign up. That was $10 at the time.  

[02:58:26] Unknown:

There you go. See? Like, the amount of full big points I gave back in the day is a $20 gift.  

[02:58:33] Unknown:

10,000,000 sets. That's $400.   Should we talk about Tom Brady real quick?  

[02:58:40] Unknown:

No. Is he is he the goat? Fuck, sweet. I I don't okay. I've dealt with output descriptors.   I've I've dealt with output descriptors,   and it it makes sense in the sense, like it's like it's a little prefix and then parentheses   and a pub key.   And so the prefix is saying, like, it's like,   public key or it's a public key hash or,   witness public key, so segwit.   That all makes sense. How does what is how does that involve cold card? Okay. So the users don't need to  

[02:59:14] Unknown:

fully understand this shit. Mhmm. Because if the wallets to support it   and the wallets to force users to back it up. That's all. So this is what the this is what the user would back would would would would Mhmm. Back up. They'll back up the seed, and they'll put the scripter.   Beautiful.  

[02:59:33] Unknown:

So the the so but that's   different than their 24 words. Yeah. It's more.   So  

[02:59:40] Unknown:

they write out this whole thing with all these numbers and I put it on micro SD card. It's better than nothing.   So you're not gonna etch this into steel? No. No. No. You don't no. No. The seed should be in steel.  

[02:59:55] Unknown:

Mhmm. But the output descriptor, at least, in a micro SD card What? Why can't I write down multiple micro SD card. Yeah. Just, like, write down the the 24 words and then w p k h?  

[03:00:07] Unknown:

Well, you can,   but then you need to know the account,   maybe the gap.   Right? Because for example,   was it,   I'm right. No. Not something right. What's stopping?  

[03:00:21] Unknown:

Is it possible to put all this information, like, an extra word or 2?  

[03:00:27] Unknown:

No. Well, the the account is a range from, like, 0 to 999. We just, like,  

[03:00:32] Unknown:

like, why why are we in a situation where we just default all these things? Like, why  

[03:00:38] Unknown:

why aren't all these numbers defaulted? Okay. As I as I told somebody yesterday,   standards are   99%   sales, 1% technology.   Okay?   It doesn't matter how good we come up with this shit.   The vendors are never gonna be all in consensus, right? So if the spec is too good and too precise,   it's harder.   So I'd rather we have any spec that people just attempt at backing up than a precise standard and most   don't do it.   So anyways, so just please, like, it's just it's enough. Seriously,   a seed plus an output descriptor is like holy grail,   we those are saved.  

They have the money.  

[03:01:32] Unknown:

So for now How long is the output descriptor? What does that look like?  

[03:01:39] Unknown:

It looks like a word and then a parenthesis and then a something that looks like a pub key. Yeah. It it's not it's not Or if it's like a multisame. It's but it says, like, too long to write down. Right? Yeah. It's not a no. No. It's it's not just too long. It's prone. It's it's it's it's like,   it's like computer shit.  

[03:02:00] Unknown:

Right? It's not hacks per se. It's computer shit. No. That that's the best way to explain to a person that doesn't I just, like, imagine my puppy just, like Right. It's spitting it out. P 2 p a p. It's your license to Windows XP without the hyphens. X Right. Right. I, I I figured out when you were just like it just like looks like a fucking x pub or whatever. It's not ideal.  

[03:02:21] Unknown:

So so just just save that shit on your computer that you have just for Bitcoin  

[03:02:28] Unknown:

In fact, that But but it's not because if you had the 24 words, you could just do a lot of guessing or go to the world coverage. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. So let's just talk about this for a second. Like,  

[03:02:39] Unknown:

the cool thing about seeds   and, like, seeds get so much shit. Like, so many people, like, talk to have it. One sec. One sec. The the the crazy thing about seeds is that it is it is very difficult,   and it's time consuming and hard to contemplate in your head,   when when you have to save, like, a a digital backup somewhere.   Like, I don't know if I have the backup updated. I don't know where it is. I don't know if it's secure. I don't know if someone can access it. There's, like, all these different things in my head, but if I'm able to just, like, write down 24 words, that is way easier.   Right? That is a way easier concept for me to   to to not only do correctly, but to feel comfortable afterwards that I'm I'm secure. Right? So I I think I think there's some there's really something to be said about removing   digital backups completely from the user. I mean, like, they they they have the option if they want to, but   the average user probably best case scenario for them is they have no digital backups whatsoever.  



[03:03:44] Unknown:

Yeah. So so the way I look at this is, like,   the the BIP 39 for all its flaws is quite amazing   already.   Right? It's a big deal.   At least you have the fucking secret.   You might not know how to use the secret, but at least you have it.   So you have the hope that somebody can help you   use the secret. Right?   Now   there's a lot of wallets out there, a lot of wallets doing shit that's not kosher   on their evasion paths,   and then there is needs for things that are not necessarily obvious. Right? Like, for example,   for walls that care about privacy, they're gonna do nonstandard gaps   in derivation.  

So,   if you're not looking with the right software, you're not gonna find all the money.   That's why it's so important to use   descriptors.   Descriptors would spell specify   all the things   related to derivation.   It's quite a good solution. It's just not very human compatible in terms of writing it down,   that's why I'm saying because it's not the secret itself,   so it's not the end of the world if you lose it. It's not ideal if you lose it, but it's not the end of the world if you lose it like it is for the seed,   at least save it in digital form.  

That helps   a lot.   And and you know what? It helps a lot to to, like,   to   to migrate from wallet to wallet as well.   So if you wanna change vendor or whatever you wanna do,   that helps. So so yeah. So shame everybody into accepting. It's it's the same with PSBT.   All the wallets that you use should do PSBT for signing Bitcoin transactions and descriptors   for loading the the the   the wallet   type in.  

[03:05:39] Unknown:

How does a user   get this   from Coldcard?   It's a Nestle card. Nestle. Like, if if I export, like, the JSON, though, I don't see the I don't see the There is twice.  

[03:05:54] Unknown:

No. There is an option there of Bitcoin Core. It's gonna do descriptors.  

[03:05:59] Unknown:

Okay. So the the the generic JSON just does derivation paths? Yep. It does everything there.  

[03:06:06] Unknown:

It's not that hard. I mean, it's it's like   listen  

[03:06:10] Unknown:

I I   I I experienced this a little bit because I played around. It's like BDKs, like a Rust Bitcoin development kit, and I've been, like, playing around with making, like, a gooey wallet with that.   And so, like,   I'm not very good at serializing and deserializing thing. And so so taking   going from a cold card   to,   a functioning wallet, like, there's a lot of things you can, like, do wrong. Like, you can Mhmm. Like, you can have something, like,   capitalized that wasn't was like, you had to call 2 lowercase on, and, like, the derivation paths are not, like, super intuitive to work with. And then there's, like, this little little,   quotation mark or an h for hardened. What is Yeah. What the hell is a hardened derivation path? Nobody knows.  

I don't know. It so I I could I I'm hoping to overcome this confusion and get better at understanding   the same time, I understand that it'd be nice to just have this some simplified or standardized in some way. Yeah. So easier to work with.  

[03:07:12] Unknown:

So, you you know and right now is a fucking walk in the park. Wait until we have Taproot and Mini Scripts.   Oh, then shit gets serious   because then Show it to us. Show it to us. No.  

[03:07:26] Unknown:

Why doesn't shit get serious?  

[03:07:27] Unknown:

It's because   it's like a literal   world of options.   Right? When when you get into mini script and Taproot and this stuff, it's like you can do anything.   Right? It's not a world computer like Ethereum,   but, like, you can do, like, a lot. Right? You need to save that  

[03:07:48] Unknown:

script. Like, you're talking with multisig. Like Exactly. Having the keys is not enough to spend a multisig. You need to know the shape of the script to know how to send it. Because it's gonna be threshold signatures. Right?  

[03:08:01] Unknown:

So   you're gonna need to be very specific, and you're gonna have to have all the things. I mean,   this is the amazing thing about cryptography. Right? Cryptography is great if you have the keys.   It's not great if you don't have the keys,   as the owner   of the thing.   So,   you have to be precise. Right? And   and descriptors   are very good at that. They they help you be precise   descriptively.   Right? You can be very, verbose and explain what you wanna do, and and the software does it. Right?   With   the current setup,   I mean,   to be fair to Electrum, Electrum at least had the, like, the support skeleton   file, that's how we call it,   but it's this JSON file that Electrum just opens as a wallet. Right?  

But   before, like, I mean, before that, there there really is no other wallet that supports that. You couldn't generate   an electric like, a a a wallet   file for the wallet to do it. You had to go through the wallet setup   to get it done. So you you you needed a human to go through the whole setup again and again and again every time you wanted to do it. At least with the Electrum JSON file, you could we can generate that as a hardware wallet and you just open it.   Now   with the descriptors,   it's it's, like, human legible and you can do this stuff   even   if it doesn't look human legible, it's it's like it really is human legible.  

Now   that stuff is, like, not the end of the world when it comes to normal   let's call it normal Bitcoin,   but when you come to mini scripts and Taproot and all this stuff, it's gonna get very complex very fast.  

[03:09:56] Unknown:

So because a because a mini script can be like,   if you have these two keys,   then you can spend   before   100 blocks. But then after 5,000 blocks, you can spend with,   like, these 3 other key you know, you can have that kind of logic. And lots of other parameters.  

[03:10:18] Unknown:

Lots of stuff can go in.   Right? So so it's gonna get very tricky. So we we want wallets to be   kosher before even that. Right? So let's get the descriptors out there,   and then   the descriptors are gonna be used for 4 mini script,   And let's activate Taproot.  

[03:10:41] Unknown:

Oh, so you wanna talk about Taproot now?  

[03:10:44] Unknown:

I don't know.  

[03:10:46] Unknown:

How do you think that happens?   You think Taproot gets activated by January 1st   next year?  

[03:10:55] Unknown:

No. I think we can do before that.  

[03:10:57] Unknown:

You think before that? How early? When is this gonna happen? 6 months?   So what we can do is we can do Well, first of all first of all, why do the freaks care about Taproot?  

[03:11:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Because it's it's like we can we can have some on chain privacy, not all the privacy, but some on chain privacy.   Ultimate, I I still I'm still on the fence with the whole confidential transaction on chain. I don't I don't think that's a good idea yet. It's cheaper and more private multisig   for the average Oh, yeah. We do. Right? Way more because, like, you can hide all the types of I think I think  

[03:11:36] Unknown:

transaction type. There's been a major failure in how we how we,   explain Taproot to the masses, and I think that that's the sound bite. Right? No. It's because No. It's cheaper cheaper and more private multisig. It's fucking complicated.  

[03:11:53] Unknown:

Okay. It can do a fuck ton of stuff.   Privacy is not the privacy is just one little thing out of all the things that Root can do.   It's,   it's a fundamental   change to Bitcoin because of Schnorr,   and   and,   and everybody is pretty   sort of like hangover from SegWit.  

[03:12:20] Unknown:

To to link it a little bit to what we were talking about, like, part of the the whole point is that everything kinda looks the same   on chain, so you would have a less of a clue of what formulation   this wall   wall was. So you really do need to remember  

[03:12:36] Unknown:

how you created that. That's right. It's it's a it's a good fucking point.   Everything's gonna look the same   by design,   and it's gonna be very hard for that widow   that just inherent her code card to know   that,   you know, Electrum or   Specter did whatever weird thing they did   with those transactions. Right?   They're not gonna find their money   if they don't have good documentation where the money is.  

[03:13:11] Unknown:

So how does so so how does that how does Taproot help there? Oh, no. It doesn't.  

[03:13:16] Unknown:

It makes it worse.  

[03:13:18] Unknown:

Okay.  

[03:13:19] Unknown:

But the the the that that privacy of everything that's looking the same on chain. Tangent. That tangent was just No. The the privacy of everything looking the same on chain is the same thing that makes it harder to know exactly how the the wallet was set up in the first place. Yeah.  

[03:13:36] Unknown:

But but do we agree that my   distillation   of   why people should care about activating Taproot,   is is is is cheaper and more private multisig.   And and and from that perspective,   since lightning is also multisig,   cheaper and more private   lightning usage.  

[03:14:00] Unknown:

Just it's not even it's not quadratic anymore. Right? Because I should 62. 6102,  

[03:14:06] Unknown:

like like, it I understand why people think it's my NIM.  

[03:14:11] Unknown:

100% of the polling is He's showing he's he's showing my service. The chat and his phone is He's currently he's currently using my service. Final message.  

[03:14:20] Unknown:

Final message dot io, which is a dead man's switch, which is designed in for that exact situation.  

[03:14:26] Unknown:

60102.   The problem is final message does not support multiple wires.  

[03:14:32] Unknown:

No. It does. Up to 5. Oh, that that's not enough   for for like, I'm  

[03:14:38] Unknown:

up to 5. That's great. Wait. No. No. No. No. If for a Bitcoiner, if a sizable Citadel,   You know, wives and children, it's a lot of people to send messages to.  

[03:14:49] Unknown:

All all all jokes aside, like, the real issue with final message, and we're very vocal about it, is that you do have to trust us to actually send the message, and that's why it should be used as a,   like, a duplicate service. It's a backup service. So they both have to we both have to fuck you.   You don't have to trust us with the contents of the message because it's encrypted, but you have to trust us with,   with actually sending it.   And this is why we need Taproot.  

[03:15:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Mhmm. So so Taproot is   new in so many ways because 6102 raise the wife limit.   Raise the wife limit. There's no wife limit, bro. No one's no one's holding you back. That's You know, I've learned that in Canada, there is no wife limit apparently. Polygamy is is is, like, legit here. There's definitely no limit in America. I mean,  

[03:15:38] Unknown:

my future wife will not be happy with any  

[03:15:41] Unknown:

you know I already have a wife limit. I I joke with my wife about it. I'm happy with it. I have a wife   all the time. I say, why don't we just get a second wife? You get a break.  

[03:15:51] Unknown:

It's true.  

[03:15:53] Unknown:

Listen. And that is why I have the cold guards. Boss.   As I understand,  

[03:16:00] Unknown:

I'm not a very, like, So Taproot. Let's get back. Let's get back. Let's get back. We're getting derailed here. Taproot.  

[03:16:07] Unknown:

Time is money. Do we do we do we think  

[03:16:10] Unknown:

do we a lot. You so you think Taproot gets activated before January 1? No. I think it's possible.   If they So you think it gets activated after January 1? What we should do is we should do  

[03:16:23] Unknown:

I think, what's his name?   Mister Taproot in Twitter Taproot in chief.   What's his name? He keeps on pushing all the Taproot stuff. So I was thinking about, say, like, a year   a year of   of,   signaling   and then half a year   of fuck you. Right?   Hashtag list.   Exactly.   So, Ben oh, Ben. The other Ben.   The other Ben. Ben DeCarman.  

[03:16:57] Unknown:

We have so many good Ben's in Bitcoin. I know.  

[03:17:01] Unknown:

And then, and then, and, you know, he suggested   6 in 6 months. Right? So so essentially 12 months total.   Yeah. I'm I'm cool with that too. So, yeah, essentially, what we should do is,   half a year   of letting people just let let the miners give them a give the miners a a chance   with,   with,   with a lot falls, and then   and then   after the minors,   if they fail, then, we give ourselves 6 months and then, US after SS.  

[03:17:37] Unknown:

So we give them a shot and then if if and then we we reevaluate.  

[03:17:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It's it's easier this way. Right? It's pain it's it's less   painful. And and they would know this time   that we have their asses   coming after if they   decide to not be   remember, you can be an asshole, not a dick. There you go. That's a chance.   You can say that you don't like the shit. You can be an asshole, blah blah blah,   but then not activating  

[03:18:08] Unknown:

wow, then we run over you. So so so so let's just unpack this a little bit for the freaks.   Auto updates. Auto updates is a interesting thing from a self sovereignty perspective.   If you allow your software to auto update,   then whoever controls that auto update mechanism   can insert whatever code they want, and then you're gonna run that code. So they they can just it's a it's a massive vulnerability. It's a massive centralization risk,   and that's why anyone who talks about censorship resistance and free open source software,   they talk about the lack of auto updating. You're supposed to verify before you install any kind of update   to the point where best Bitcoin practices are kinda like, you know, you run, like,   a couple a couple, versions behind core,   unless there's, like, some kind of, like, massive remote vulnerability.  

So so so with with Taproot,   we have to decide if we are gonna run the software that merges this shit.   And   there are it's in in the overarching premise, there's 2 main types of software. There's software that says, if the miners decide they wanna run this shit and they say they're running this shit, then we will run this shit.   Or you can run software that's just like, on this date,   we will fucking run this shit.   And then the argument is, do we do what do we do? And and and it seems like consensus is you let the miners decide if they're gonna do the the the signaling. And if they don't, then we all run the software that says we're running this shit on this date.   Is that a good synopsis?  



[03:19:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen. It is in their interest. Right?   I can't see why   them not running this would be   a good thing.  

[03:20:06] Unknown:

I wasn't around for   user activated soft forks, so, like,   what did you guys do? Did you did you need to download a fork, or did you So so that's my preferred  

[03:20:18] Unknown:

way of handling,   Taproot as well.   I think we need the Shaolin Fry style move here,   which is somebody forks core   and adds these rules, the the the the rule about   giving   the the the miners,   a signaling time, and then and we can all we we make this block based. Right? So block time based.   So about 6 months,   and then and then 6 months after that or a year after that   to do a,   a uasf.  

[03:20:51] Unknown:

So the miners have 6 months to run the fork?  

[03:20:54] Unknown:

No. The the miners so, essentially, yeah. So the mine the miners have 6 months   to, to start,   merging  

[03:21:05] Unknown:

or What do you mean I'm sorry. What do you mean merging? Like, what are the Exacting essentially accepting Taproot transactions.   Okay.  

[03:21:13] Unknown:

If they don't,   then they're gonna diverge from the network because the network is gonna be running a network that accepts   and relays.  

[03:21:23] Unknown:

Wait. That's up to 12 months, though,  

[03:21:26] Unknown:

Presumably. Yeah. Exact so sorry. 6 months after the miners did not do their job. But in in, but we're forced in their hand. Exactly.  

[03:21:34] Unknown:

So what happens day 1 of the happy path if I'm a So so so wait. Wait. Wait. So this is where this so we're creating a money that is above nation states. So there's a lot of shit online,   and things are getting very it's gonna get way heated. Like, people don't realize it's gonna get even more heated than it currently is, but it is already heated. It's rough consensus regardless if it's heated or not. It's it's rough consensus. Right? So so in a in a rough consensus world, what happens is you end up with 2 you end up with 2 chains, and you have equal coins on both,   and the free market decides if you sell or not. And and and and the price   reconciles based on that, and that's how we ended up in a world where b Bitcoin Cash is trending to 0. It's going yeah. B cash is going all the way down to 0 and just keeps going down in terms of Bitcoin price because That's when it goes lost side. What? That's when it goes poorly.  

Right. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. That that is the free market mechanism that Bitcoin upgrades is that if you have a competing fork,   if you have a competing situation, you know,   if there were people that were against the idea of Taproot,   then you could end up in a situation where you have 2 different chains.   And then when you have 2 different chains, you're gonna decide which one's more valuable on the open market. Like, people will sell them for each other. Right? To be very blunt and honest,  

[03:23:01] Unknown:

I I'm I kinda find it fascinating   because   I could see   conflict around Schnorr,   but I don't understand conflict around Taproot.   Well, it's Taproot Schnorr. Right? No. I I know. But, like, nobody both. Yeah. I know. But nobody's talking about Schnorr,   which is kind of interesting to me because Schnorr is a fundamental   change to Bitcoin.   Right? It's not the curve that Satoshi chose anymore.   So   it's just it's just   interesting to me. They're, like, changing the crypto on it.   Nobody says anything, but Taproot   seems to be  

[03:23:43] Unknown:

not contentious. No. Neither none neither of them are contentious.   The the problem is so so so my point was earlier, and I didn't finish my point, was that we don't have auto updates in open source censorship resistant software because that's a vulnerability in itself.   So you want so you want to,   be able to update,   and   you you wanna do it in a way that people have to just, like, choose to install.  

[03:24:08] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[03:24:09] Unknown:

And and if you don't if you don't   and then that will always be messy. Like, there's never gonna be a situation where where that is clean. Right? Yep.  

[03:24:19] Unknown:

But I I my my question is, if I am a minor, and it seems like a no brainer to me, I like this,   what I what do I literally do?  

[03:24:29] Unknown:

You run a client that has the code that does this. So you're gonna essentially have a a client that's gonna have 2 markers.   1 is gonna be, say, for 6 months, I mean, provided that's the path I   just just explained,   it's gonna have 2 markers. Right? 1 is gonna be a marker for a period in which   the the the miners have to to do their,   choice,   and if they don't, then it switches to another marker that essentially soft   forks   into  

[03:25:04] Unknown:

pushing this change no matter what. That that's the problem. So you don't have auto updates. You have no one in control, And then so the devs don't wanna be the guys that are, like, deciding if we update.   Right? So instead of the devs deciding, the devs are, like, this is where we should update, and then they propose it to the miners, basically. And they just hope that the miners approve that, and then that's pretty decent   spread. And everyone's, like, mostly cool with that. But if you don't update your own software, you can opt out of whatever change happens.  

[03:25:35] Unknown:

Yep. But what's beautiful about Bitcoin, though,   is   we have this tradition   of keeping things backwards compatible.  

[03:25:45] Unknown:

Right. So It's crazy.  

[03:25:47] Unknown:

I I absolutely   it's my favorite thing about Bitcoin. Alright. It's literally my so we keep   OpenDimes compatible with essentially the first   client,   well, the first working client.   And that. It it no. It's why it's it's okay. I don't even remember the name. Client's the first working client? Well, it's the well, that's still working client.   It's 1.3   or 0.8.   Can't remember now. Anyways,   point is, it's one addresses.   It's very simple, and it's with private keys.   So you can redeem an OpenDAI   even with a very old client,   and it's important because it's not a field upgradeable device. Right?  

But   what I like about that is the spirit of this,   is this idea that when you're dealing with money,   right,   it's you move very slow and you don't break things,   and you make sure that whoever does not upgrade or does not do anything,   it's he he he doesn't lose his money just because the whole network upgraded.   Right? So you can be,   say, force or   something for 10 years when you come out. That guy in Germany, that's $60,000,000.   There you go.   When you come out and you try to redeem your money, it works.  

[03:27:18] Unknown:

And and just to be clear so there's this,   there's this backwards compatibility.   But for when you add a new   thing, like Taproot store Yep. Those when you those go on the chain,   and those get synced   to  

[03:27:38] Unknown:

The new clients.  

[03:27:40] Unknown:

It they get synced to the new clients, but they also get synced to old clients as well. They're getting ignored by the old clients.   So the so that they don't even propagate them? Exactly. They don't even they don't see them.   But they it doesn't   Doesn't but it doesn't break them. Exactly. Break them out of consensus. That's that's the reason it's a soft fork is that even though this weird alien transaction is happening,   the same blockchain that you're a part of,   and that you don't think is even a real Bitcoin transaction   because it's got this weird snore stuff that you've never even heard of. All that's happening on the you're saying blockchain, and you just ignore it, but you're still not out of consensus. That's right. If it broke the previous ones, it'd be a hard fork.  

Right.  

[03:28:24] Unknown:

A soft fork is going forward.  

[03:28:27] Unknown:

Like and if you time traveled   to if you time traveled in the past and you just tried to put a Taproot   transaction   on old Bitcoin  

[03:28:37] Unknown:

It wouldn't work.   Well, it would work, but people well, you would have to rewrite block history. So no. It wouldn't work. Doesn't time travel doesn't work at Bitcoin. Not that it Or, like, literally, just like Time travel, like, has never worked, actually.  

[03:28:52] Unknown:

If today I don't know about that. But Yeah. There's no there's no proof of time travel. We have not had any time travel. If today, it's gonna be a problem. Spike or not, man. If Bitcoin if if time travel existed, Bitcoin would have pumped quicker.   No. But you said, right, because you're gonna be right Right? Like, I just assume I assume in the world of time travel, like,   Bitcoin's full value gets priced in at, like, one second.   Like, the second Bitcoin gets conceived, it just immediately gets priced in. That's right. The the efficient market  

[03:29:23] Unknown:

efficient market hypothesis involves time travel.  

[03:29:27] Unknown:

That makes sense. Right? I I disagree   with both I disagree with both time travel and the efficient market hypothesis, but if if they if one exists, they both exist and destroys each other.  

[03:29:42] Unknown:

I'm so All I was trying to say is if if if literally right now I published a Taproot transaction to the Bitcoin blockchain,   All my peers will just reject it, and I wouldn't go into the moon pool, and nothing would ever happen.   And after the soft fork, that exact same transact  

[03:30:01] Unknown:

transaction would work, obviously. Sorry. I was looking for whiskey in my office.  

[03:30:05] Unknown:

I finished my bottle here. What do you what do you are are you No. No. I was having I was having grapes and shit. I think this is the longest, dispatch episode ever.  

[03:30:17] Unknown:

Well, we finally explained Taproot. Everybody knows what it is now. It took a while. Like, people have been asking for so long. What is tap root? Realistically, we only talked about activation. We haven't talked about tap root. So what are you guys drinking? What are you guys drinking? I was I was drinking a a Pinot Noir. You're so classy. I'm I am out of water.  

[03:30:39] Unknown:

You're out of water. Wow.  

[03:30:42] Unknown:

Wait. The I'm gonna go for a sativa now. I'm drinking a bozal  

[03:30:47] Unknown:

mezcal. It's art artisanal.  

[03:30:50] Unknown:

Jelly.   Dollar. One one thing I wanted to let people know, because I literally just found out about this, put bitcoinops.org.   It's like a it's a newsletter. It's got a lot of information on it.   Yeah. Bitcoin OpTech.   And then they also have topics. So, like, I mean, I missed this. I didn't notice, but newsletter 133,   it says there's gonna be a discussion in IRC   about,   some revisions to BIP 8 for how to activate Taproot. Yep. But then if you click in the newsletter, if you click on Taproot,   there's a, like, a topic and it shows every time it's been discussed. And so, I mean, it's it's real some real high quality news that I was not aware was being put out. Oh, those guys are like next level  

[03:31:41] Unknown:

with with, like, documenting things.   Highly recommend,   sign up for the Bitcoin OPTECH newsletter.   It's really good.  

[03:31:51] Unknown:

Yeah.   And I wish I had because I missed that little discussion in in   IRC.  

[03:32:00] Unknown:

I I mean, I missed it too. I was busy that day and didn't go on a   by the way, if you go on IRC, make sure to use VPNs.  

[03:32:11] Unknown:

Oh, why should we use VPNs? I mean, I do I I have nothing to hide.  

[03:32:17] Unknown:

Oh, Matt, you do.   Oh, Matt, you do.   No. Seriously, because the IRC docks your IP.  

[03:32:27] Unknown:

To everyone?  

[03:32:29] Unknown:

To everyone. Like like like everyone. You just do user info. It's just a trade off. It was just a trade off that was chosen along the way. Oh, and to be fair, though, back in the day, you couldn't just, like,   get somebody's location out of an IP. You had to, like, go through   the actual, like,   registrar or or the   or the provider. So you don't think it should be public? With the IP?  

[03:32:56] Unknown:

No. That I can just, like, type in an IP address until, like, where's my IP or whatever, and it tells me where the location is.  

[03:33:04] Unknown:

Yeah. You should also just drone it.   You should just automatically I should Yeah. I just also just be able to rent your drone? Yeah. I know. So you should just pay with lightning, you know, like, per hour. If you if you type, my IP on the CLI, the drone just shows up in your house. I like that. GoDaddy could sell, like, like, who Droning services?  

[03:33:23] Unknown:

No. Like like, we'll we'll, re like, drone redirection.   Like, when people try to drone you,   just turn somebody else.  

[03:33:34] Unknown:

I could totally see them selling this shit.   But I'm not joking. Like,   hey, Would you like your domain with an extra $5 drone redirection?   You could get an email with that as a bundle.  

[03:33:49] Unknown:

Rodolfo Rodolfo, what do you think is the what's the best iOS IRC client?  

[03:33:55] Unknown:

None.   Dude, stop using phones. Phones are not You have, like, a ton of iOS.   You have, like you're just all Apple over there. You're like Tim Apple Tim Apple fan. No. I'm a so so see, I do things that need to be done in FreeBSD on a VM   sitting on OSX.   So OSX is pleasant,   and and and it's also, like,   legit BSD.   The right things are in the right places, unlike Linux  

[03:34:27] Unknown:

where everything is What's your what's your favorite iOS what's your favorite iOS   iOS IRC  

[03:34:32] Unknown:

client? I don't use the phone for those things, Matt.  

[03:34:37] Unknown:

I'm not me. I'm not this is some person.  

[03:34:40] Unknown:

Stop using the phone. Literally his name on on on YouTube is is some person. This is not me. No. No. No. For let me explain to you. Whenever you wanna do anything,   you use a computer.  

[03:34:54] Unknown:

The phone is not meant to do What's your favorite what's your favorite iOS client?   I mean, IRC client. Oh, IRC?  

[03:35:02] Unknown:

On, like, Mac or whatever. I was like I use, what is it? What's the Iris? Whatever is the the the the terminal one.  

[03:35:11] Unknown:

Are you using terminal?  

[03:35:12] Unknown:

Yeah. You do all your IRC in terminal? Yeah. Wait. In inside of your VM or in in just the regular mode? I don't know. In the in the regular,  

[03:35:23] Unknown:

the regular, best fashion. I use the Do you just do it because it it just feels Ackerman or, like, you No. No. It's I use Muck as well. So my email client is also on the back it's also on the CLI.  

[03:35:35] Unknown:

No way. Yeah. I use Muck. Reading your emails in CLI. Oh my god. You're kidding me?  

[03:35:48] Unknown:

Can't do or that you don't wanna do in your regular terminal then?  

[03:35:52] Unknown:

Anything that I don't want my computer to see.  

[03:35:55] Unknown:

I I I you're   the fucking   that you you live in the stone age, bro. No, dude. It's the opposite. I'm snoozing emails and shit. You're like, you're just like, you have no idea what's going on. Revelation.  

[03:36:08] Unknown:

See, it's like VI. Right? So, by the way, Mutt in the fucking stone age. You don't even know. No. You don't even know. You don't even know what   I can I can search and tag emails in, like, a millisecond and delete them?   I can literally go, like like, just basic little commands.   Oh, it's so good. If you are a VI,   like,  

[03:36:33] Unknown:

normal human.   I do like them.  

[03:36:36] Unknown:

Oh, if you like them, dude, much.   Imagine editing your emails in VI.   Oh, like it's amazing. And it handles PGP beautifully.  

[03:36:47] Unknown:

No. Yeah. I mean, obviously it handles,  

[03:36:49] Unknown:

like, see It's just fantastic. Try mutt, m u t t, for email. Once you go mutt, I swear to god, like like like,   you you don't even wanna look at your phone anymore for emails.   And then and then you use,   IRSSI,   for,   terminal. Just go terminal every like, any fucking thing, this text only.   Just use the terminal.   Why would you use anything else? The terminal is the best tool ever made for text.  

[03:37:24] Unknown:

I like clicking on things.  

[03:37:27] Unknown:

Yeah. You pass you press, the command.  

[03:37:29] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, would would am I a pariah? I just like graphical user interfaces. See, how can you be for  

[03:37:36] Unknown:

like, what what is that? Privacy and be telling people to use phones and and and, like, gooey shit.  

[03:37:43] Unknown:

It is true. Like, in, like, in, like, Rust, if you wanna, like, build some software with a gooey, you're gonna, like, recursively end up with, like, a 150 dependencies.   Yeah. Whereas if you do, like, a terminal thing, you might have, like,   recursively, I mean, like, every 15. Everything in Rust ends up with a lot of dependencies, but you Are literally really cuts it down.  

[03:38:04] Unknown:

Incapable of scamming me over email because on much, I can see the fucking headers   on my emails, and and I can also see,   like, everything. Like, the links are like they look like kinda like a markdown link or something. Right? Rodolfo.  

[03:38:23] Unknown:

Seriously, people. Stop using GUIs. No. Yeah. I agree. You're right. Okay?   Like, everyone should just stop using GUI emails.   So,   I have a freak who reached out. He, like,   he he compiled every single entry for this,   giveaway contest.   He he has them all in chronological   order. He has it all compiled for me. He's he's totally a cold card. Yeah. Can we give him a cold card? Yeah. Of course. Okay.   Cool. Okay. Thank you, brother Rabbit.  

[03:38:58] Unknown:

We appreciate you. No. Seriously, man. That's What a hero. That's work.  

[03:39:03] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Dude, what he sent me is insane.   So so he says the winner is   Mark   Kex   BTC with his guess being $3.68   away   at 46505.   Well, since that's what I'm talking about.  

[03:39:22] Unknown:

To Mark Kex. Oh, listen. You send me the list of I all I need   is what price, which email.  

[03:39:30] Unknown:

Okay. Yeah. Well, I'll I'll figure that that shit out for you, but but but props to brother Rabbit for just, like, putting that all together. Amazing.   That's what I was I was kinda hoping for that. If brother, rabbit, or whatever is  

[03:39:43] Unknown:

turns out to be Mark Kex or whatever.   That's brilliant. Yeah. Awesome. One of my cold cards.  

[03:39:50] Unknown:

That is brilliant.  

[03:39:52] Unknown:

The true Mark Rex. There he is. Mark Rex, BTC.   Cheers.  

[03:40:00] Unknown:

The guy just scored 2 prizes by saying who won was himself.  

[03:40:05] Unknown:

No. No. Because Mark Rex actually Telegram me separately for whatever it's worth.  

[03:40:11] Unknown:

Wait. Did you check that on the terminal?  

[03:40:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I I only I only use Telegram on terminal because I'm like a fucking caveman,   and I don't wanna have any beautiful interfaces whatsoever.  

[03:40:23] Unknown:

What? You it says the guy who uses Android. Android is like caveman OS. Are you kidding me? It's a Google   disgusting thing.  

[03:40:33] Unknown:

I mean, people should use Graphene.  

[03:40:36] Unknown:

That's even worse.   Why is that worse? Call it broken, man.  

[03:40:42] Unknown:

Why is it broken?  

[03:40:43] Unknown:

Not not if it fucking works on it.   Especially touch. See, if there is one thing that Apple does well,   it's the touch shit. It's like every time I have a few Android devices. Right? It's like I I I touch on the phone. I said, the phone doesn't understand my hands.   It's like we have Apple. It's like it's almost like they know my DNA.   I  

[03:41:07] Unknown:

miss I miss those Apple vibes.   I get a lot of false, like, palm touching on my Right?  

[03:41:16] Unknown:

People. Sad. I mean, seriously, it's like if you're gonna talk about, like, UX shit, they they do I mean, there's some things that are very annoying,  

[03:41:24] Unknown:

with that. Like how they don't let you run software on their computer that they own that is in your pocket? Yeah. I mean, aside from from a $1200  

[03:41:33] Unknown:

fucking phone,   who's in your pocket and you are not allowed to install software from outside.   Yeah.   At least when jobs was alive,   I could feel my, like,   my wants and needs out of the devices were at least they're represented.   Mhmm. But now it's just like these guys are just fucking shitting all over it.   Oh, there's some  

[03:41:58] Unknown:

yeah. Precursor is gonna fix it.  

[03:42:03] Unknown:

I I don't know what that is.  

[03:42:06] Unknown:

The the,   bunny studio guy?  

[03:42:10] Unknown:

So oh, that's a cool project and all, but, like,   people don't understand.  

[03:42:15] Unknown:

It's like a palm pilot in hardware power.  

[03:42:18] Unknown:

People don't understand.   It's like   what it takes   to do a real phone that can do real things. It's a big fucking deal,   and unless Broadcon   is willing to bestow   their chips and patents on you,   it's not gonna happen.  

[03:42:39] Unknown:

So we gotta end intellectual property.  

[03:42:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, listen. I I I'm completely against this. Yeah. No. Complete against it. Yeah. I'm kinda against it, but, like,   but, again, it's like this is the world we live in. Right?   Like,   even if Bitcoin wins, it's still gonna take quite some time for this shit to change. It's not like just a lot of inertia in these things. Right?   And and it's complex shit too. This is not like a dude sitting in a room coming up with stuff. Like,   this is like some legit advancements   too. It's not like full on patathrolling   even though Broadcom behaves that way.  

So much so that even Raspberry Pi uses a Broadcon,   MCU.   Really? Yeah.   The Raspberry Pi is a closed box. I don't know why people keep on saying it's, like, open source and shit. It's not No. No. I mean, it's cheap. It's a fucking blob. But it's cheap, and we can just   use it cheaper. But you're using stuff that  

[03:43:47] Unknown:

100% owned. It's probably yeah. It's probably a 100% owned. Yeah. I mean, you have to have, like Luke thinks it Luke Dash junior thinks it's a 100% owned. And it's also a garbage computer. Like, Jesus Christ. No. It's good for the price. It's cheap as fuck. It's like $60. Yeah. But then you end up having to need 5 of them. So just buy a $500 No. You can get, like, one with 8 gigs of RAM for, like, $70.   Like, that's good. It's like a good deal. I think it's a good deal.   You you slap an SSD in there. I'm a fucking hater of of It's kinda it it it does it opens computing in that that it makes it more accessible, and I appreciate that. And I I think it's cool that, like, people are forced to, like, build it a little bit.  

[03:44:27] Unknown:

No. I get this. I did it feel If you're, like, in Africa or something, sure. But I'll   me. Right? If you're in North America, stop drinking lattes and fucking buy a better computer.  

[03:44:37] Unknown:

I agree. I agree.  

[03:44:39] Unknown:

I I   I very much on board where, like, I don't want the slowest thing in the world to be in my Bitcoin node. So I need to buy, like, one of those, like, tiny little enterprise,   like, mini computers. Now you see it through. The wife and, like, the the network card is I don't know, there's something weird with it. It, like, drops off the network. I have to reboot it. I can't figure it out. Alright. So if you want pro shit if you want pro shit,  

[03:45:05] Unknown:

standard tech, but pro stuff,   go to,   logic supplies.   It's a logic yeah. Logicsupplies.com   or whatever.   They have   really nice,   solid state computers   because, you know, fuck fans.   Right? And fuck spinning discs.   So,   you buy one of their little,   micro ATI, whatever the fuck it is nowadays,   you know, with, like, a decent sized drive and whatever. But their computers are, like,   really high quality   Intel boards and stuff   made for for   for industry. Right? They're they're not like home shit.   I I think I have one, I think, running downstairs for, like, literally 10 years   just fine.  

Actually, I have a Mac Pro downstairs running for 20.   Like, so this is the thing about Apple. Right? Like, I have a computer running for 20 fucking years.   I  

[03:46:14] Unknown:

got EMCS   EMMC   in these ones   because these are the cheap ones.  

[03:46:22] Unknown:

Yeah. They they sell from all   like, they have all price points. I think it starts at around, like, $300   for something, like,   usable.  

[03:46:32] Unknown:

I think they changed their name. It's onlogic.com,  

[03:46:34] Unknown:

by the way. People looking. It's all pretty marketing now.   But anyways and, you know, and they have, like, decent extrusion aluminum,   like, cases for the boards and all that stuff.   And then you can you choose by industry. Right? Like, what kind of industrial greatness   you want for this stuff.   Anyways, it's nice stuff,   and it's like fair price for what it is.  

[03:47:06] Unknown:

And it's not  

[03:47:08] Unknown:

a Raspberry Pi.  

[03:47:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I think people should run lots of hardware. They should have   that should be just   I mean, that's my addiction. Right? Like, I just buy lots of hardware   and just run it. Yep.   So   new,   category   on this show, is Bitcoin designed to pump forever? I need to have you on record.   Do you agree or disagree?   We'll start with you, Paul.  

[03:47:37] Unknown:

Yes.  

[03:47:38] Unknown:

Now so we got number go go up technology. Patent patent Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. You're on the record. Yes? Yes. Yes. Okay. Rodolfo, what do you what do you say? It's been a little while that I've been saying this. Bitcoin is binary.  

[03:47:52] Unknown:

Mhmm. Okay?   It's either 0.   I used to say moon, but now I say Mars.   It's like, there is no middle ground of a deflationary   system like this.   It's like, if Bitcoin ever stagnates,   there's gonna be something else better. They'll eat its lunch.   So it's like Bitcoin either pumps forever   or goes to 0.  

[03:48:17] Unknown:

It is kinda like that sometimes makes me feel, like, weirdly,   like, reverse psychology bad because I'm like, well,   what are the odds that I get to have the the greatest future and the world is wonderful because Bitcoin wins.   Like, nothing ever turns out so well,   so it must be 0.  

[03:48:38] Unknown:

That's listen.   That's, that's been a a fairly reasonable way of looking at Bitcoin for the last 12 years.   It's nothing is a given. Right? But but, like,   I'm a big believer. It's always been that, like, Bitcoin is either 0 or moon. Like,   there's no middle ground with this shit. There really isn't.   You know, you look on the rear view mirror, even shit technologies are, like, catching up, right, like Ethereum.   They're still we can still see them,   looking back. So   you gotta keep on innovating and, and making it secure. There there really is no there's no end to this shit.  

[03:49:24] Unknown:

You don't think,   I mean, Ethereum's a joke.  

[03:49:29] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. But but you know what? It's a joke of good marketing, man.   And good marketing goes a long way.  

[03:49:36] Unknown:

I'm always amazed to how many of these shit coin like, not not nobody seems to be getting   like,   Bitcoin has such wonderful security because of all the ASICs working so hard,   and nobody ever seems to attack anybody   with with proof of work, like mining attacks.  

[03:49:57] Unknown:

Oh, god. Sorry. I just accidentally opened Twitter. And, of course, j w, weatherman, Fudman. Mhmm. It's, of course, it's the really fucking saying shit about this stuff.   This dude has way too much time in his hands.  

[03:50:17] Unknown:

My web browser is frozen. I feel like that's kind of like a   It's a sign. I think it's a sign.  

[03:50:29] Unknown:

I mean, I  

[03:50:31] Unknown:

And if you can't confirm the shit coiner,   Mister Bitcoiner, go fuck yourself.   Yeah. He's a huge fan of yours. He's been super pro. I love him, but he called me Shaquena, so go fuck yourself.   Is he be a dick or an asshole? Yeah. I know. I we're we're we're No. No. That's an asshole. See, that's a classic asshole move.   See, if you went on Twitter and wrote a post and then tried to get some, like, people to fucking, like, write articles about how Rodolfo is a chick on her, they'll be a dick.   That's crossing the line.   Samantha.  



[03:51:20] Unknown:

So Yep. So we we all agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. Yes.   We all agree that Dan Nathan is short Bitcoin. He's about to get wrecked.   I think we all agreed that we're gonna hit 50 k by next Tuesday.  

[03:51:38] Unknown:

Likely.   What? Likely.  

[03:51:42] Unknown:

We we're gonna hit we're gonna hit 50 k by next Tuesday. Right?  

[03:51:46] Unknown:

I I don't   know.   It could be less. It could be more.  

[03:51:51] Unknown:

Okay. I mean, I I think we hit it by our HR on Thursday.   No. I know. But then I think they'll be, like So we did the price predictions. You were, like, a little bit too bare. How about Hyperwave? Do you guys have opinions on Hyperwave? Do we think, like, we're gonna hit the $1500   target   of, Hyperwave, or  

[03:52:11] Unknown:

have you passed that point? I I have no what are you talking about?  

[03:52:18] Unknown:

Rudolph knows what I'm talking about.   Nope.   Hyperwave was,   was Tone Vase's,  

[03:52:25] Unknown:

Oh, no. I I don't listen to traders. It had, like, a $1500  

[03:52:29] Unknown:

bottom in March.   I don't listen to traders. What's Oh, in in about 7 months it was 7 months ago   we were gonna hit 1500, and then we didn't.   Instead,  

[03:52:41] Unknown:

we're up here. Oh, wait. Somebody's talking about risk v here, Segway. Yeah. Do you have an opinion on risk v? Yeah. So it's cool, but it's unlikely to take off.   Wow.   Because   so FPGAs are expensive.   That's essentially   that's one of the main problems, and then the second problem is kind of related to being expensive is that most manufacturers don't wanna add expensive,   like, parts to their things because then the product is expensive.   So,   yes, there is a chance   that goes somewhere, but it's unlikely just because of cost. It doesn't have to be in FPGA though.   Yeah. Risk   v, risk 5 does, like, kind of. Yeah. It's it's a it's an FPGA solution, isn't it? No. No. No. No. No. Like, people so it's an open source Right. Chip design   and you could put, like Okay. I guess Precursor  

[03:53:38] Unknown:

is is putting it in,   an FPGA as they're kinda like some   hyperparanoid  

[03:53:46] Unknown:

set. You you could make a die, but the problem is   most,   most entities don't have the means to make   a die. Right.   And when you make a die, you have to pay licensing   to all the designs   you use on your die that may you may not agree or   you may not agree that they were   something that you took from other people,   but   the the fabs   won't   do your dye   unless all the stuff is squared out.  

[03:54:23] Unknown:

Well well, isn't the whole point of well, I do know there is this aspect with Wishify. Well, the fundamental design of it is open source. So, like, the ARM license is open source. All the stuff that you might do on top of that, and a lot of the features that you might actually want in a chip,   a lot of those are licensed from having building on top of those. Yeah. It's it's not simply harder, man, especially when you're making chips.   I think, but there is something that's kinda really bullish about it. Like, just like it's very cost effective for, like, the companies that are, like, involved in it. Like, it's like for, like, a microcontroller   for, like, a hard drive, kinda like like some some chip that you're gonna make millions of that's very tiny, very simple, and now you can make it without paying Arm any money. But you don't because arm is not involved in most of the tiny stuff.  



[03:55:13] Unknown:

So, like   like, the great majority of the small little microcontrollers   have nothing to do with arm or any really   thing like that. It's they're just   they're just like so   there's been a lot of consolidation between the big microchip makers. So so microchip   and STM   and,   like,   those guys   make all the little things   very cost effective. Like, it's super cost effective.   The the biggest,   it's kinda funny, but, like, the biggest cost on simple stuff is often, like, the plastic in the packaging.   It's not the chips.   That that's   the people don't seem to understand where the cost is in this stuff. Now when you get into   devices that are more complex than you normally, the biggest cost would be your your MCU.  

Right?   But still,   it's not necessarily the biggest cost on a device.  

[03:56:19] Unknown:

Well, it's not the biggest cost, but if you can save I mean, I just know Western Digital has been really big into this this whole time. It might be because they bump into some path and that they can't get around,  

[03:56:30] Unknown:

But I I wouldn't believe   because see,   let me put it this way. For all the the licensing bullshit you might deal with with Arm,   you get a lot as well.   Right? There's a lot of stuff already developed for you. You don't have to do it again.   So it's not like, black and white   with the hardware stuff, the, and the calculations for like where do you wanna save cost and where is not worth saving cost, it's not as obvious as people think it is.   Listen, I I think it's really cool.   I'm always,   like, very skeptical   when there is open source   hardware, or even if it's closed source to new entrance in the hardware space. There's   it's a market that's extremely cost optimized already.  

Just just for, like, an interesting,   anecdote here.   Essentially, most of the hardware makers, the the chip makers announced that for 2021, there is a 5% increase in in,   in in costs they're passing to the consumers   across the board everywhere because of COVID bullshit.   So   I don't know. It's like so for example,   car manufacturers,   right now   cannot ship cars because   the chipmakers   are backlogged.  

[03:58:00] Unknown:

It it's a weird market, man. The there is there is Wait. So can we just talk about that for a second? Like, I was thinking the other day, like, privacy car. Like, a car that that that   like   like, I love my lady, and I would never cheat on her. But, like, if I were were to cheat on her and, like, I wanted a a car that, like, didn't completely dodge my privacy everywhere I went, Like, you have to buy a 15 year old car. Right? Yeah. A 100%. No. But Like,   is that crazy, though? Like,   are there gonna be a manufacturer   that, like, offers us, like, a private car? So, like, I can have a car, I can drive places where I don't have it, like, completely   exposed to the world.  



[03:58:41] Unknown:

Before,   we started hitting record, I was talking to Paul about,   the,   like, I have an affinity to,   to mechanical devices that are dumb as possible. So my car,   I chose a car that has the least amount of beeps and the least amount of computing as possible.   It's a new car, but still,   like the the car doesn't have a smart anything,   and is not connected to any GPS anything really that can transmit.   So you can still make those decisions that that's still possible,   But when I'm talking about chips is this in general. Right? So, like, your car is full of them. Right? Like, it drives the ABS system. It drives everything. Like, everything in the car is electronic. Right?   And thankfully, they use a lot of, like, sort of very closed loop,   like, simple systems that so they keep the complexity down just for their own sake too. Right?  

And, all those chips,   have to be made by somebody, and right now, it's all backlogged.  

[03:59:51] Unknown:

It's   sorry. I I, I dropped my browser,   crashed my whole computer because I'm not running Mac OS. I'm running running  

[03:59:59] Unknown:

inferior Linux. Oh, Jesus Christ.  

[04:00:02] Unknown:

Wait. Backlog, you used to talking about, like, the actual fabs?  

[04:00:06] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. So   so so, yeah, everybody's backlog. Like, I mean, Microchip   literally just   recommission one of their factories   to   to to try to meet demand.   This is pre COVID demand   on chips. Like,   you cannot like,   these the makers of chips,   their goal is to drive price down contrary to what people think. Right? So, like, they are trying to to drive price down,   so that more shit gets made.   It's not like some   evil empire even though they kinda act that way in some way or another, but they're   they   can't make enough. Like, there is not enough fabs. There is not enough anything to make to meet demand right now. So  

[04:00:58] Unknown:

I I I missed,   just to go back a little bit to risk 5. Like, I missed I missed a lot of what you said because I was rebooting my computer. But but there is this aspect of, like,   ARM is gonna provide you a lot of tools. And, yes, you can make a chip very cheaply.   And and like you said, there's this bottleneck here with a fab anyways. But,   an FBGA maybe is like $4. You know, you're not gonna put that in a mass produced   device. But if you're in college and you're learning how to make chips, you're probably gonna learn how to make a RISC VOC because it's open source. You can put it on FPGA. You're, like, completely unencumbered,  

[04:01:40] Unknown:

like, IP log on it. I don't know. The the the manufacturers of chips love,   like, filling the universities with stuff.   So, like, it's very possible the university is gonna get all their free   SDK and dev boards from STI, STM, and and,   and Microchip   for their stuff for free.   Mhmm. And it and it's and it's open. Like, it's not, like, closed in the way that people think it is closed. Right? Like, you can do whatever you want to it.   It's just that, like,   you know, you can't copy the die, but as a student in those   positions, you're not gonna be able to copy the die anyways. Like,   you know, all the specs are open and and, like,   anyways, it's it's just it's not as close as people think it is.  

Like, with secure   all most things are under NDA.   It there's no   like,   you get everything.  

[04:02:47] Unknown:

Oh, I I I meant to ask you that we're in 4 hours.   Could you could you imagine, like, a cold card that is, like, a little decomposed, like, where you had a device that is, like, only the secure like, the the simplest possible thing and then it interfaces over, like, an aux trackers or something like that. So With a a more computery part.  

[04:03:10] Unknown:

We it's been in our to do list to make,   unfolded   cold card board.   What that means is, like, essentially a code card dev board.   That's   in a case. Right? So then you can do whatever the fuck you want to do because code card is already is like that. So unlike all the other hardware wallets, you can load your own firmware on CodeCard and sign it.   You don't have to use our firmware.   So   so we wanted to make a dev board for it. It's just, you know, it's like one more project. Right?   So we just haven't had the,   like, time really   to do it. But but the the schematics are out there.  



[04:03:57] Unknown:

Yeah. I just I just like I like the idea of,   and, like, there's some people in, like, the embedded world kinda playing around with this stuff. Just like computers that are kinda decomposed a little bit into, like, different parts that are kinda plug and playable. So you don't have to like, just kind of a a monolith.   And you can kind of like, swap in little parts that are all kinda checking on each other or something. So cold card, there's only 2 parts.  

[04:04:22] Unknown:

There is the SC and the MCU. There's nothing else. I mean, okay, there is some flash memory, but that's that that's all.   So,   like,   you can't really swap anything. Right? Like, it's just too simple to bear.   If you wanna play with that, then then check out the Spectre DIY.   You you can you can   sort of Lego your way to your heart's desire.   It's just yeah. I mean, like, I'm a big fan of the idea of simple devices for security.   So, like,   the design of making it so bare is on purpose.  

[04:05:00] Unknown:

Like, you wanna want to add complexity just to make it so it is legoable.  

[04:05:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. I don't wanna do that   because, like,   we already have an an MCU that's essentially   open. Right?   And then the SC that we use is fixed function.   That means that you cannot really program it. There is no program.   It's all in the silicon.   All you can do is give it some settings,   and and so, like, Ledger is right in calling it   not an   SE. It's actually just a secure memory   chip   in a way. Right? It's just it's very hard to define it. Let's put it this way, because it's in between a secure memory and a secure chip.   It's just it doesn't really doesn't let you run any software on it,   which is amazing.  

It's just a dumb   memory device that has some   secure element capabilities.   So   when when yep.  

[04:06:03] Unknown:

When is the private key, like, when is the baby 4?   Right.   When when is the private key,   because the private key is never in the actual device memory. Right?  

[04:06:16] Unknown:

Yes. It is. So,   and and that's part of the design,   like, trade off. Right?   So   we store,   we we encrypt the private key   with a key from the MCU   into the SC.   Right? When it's off,   if you break into the SC,   you're gonna find an encrypted seed.   Mhmm. It's encrypted. You you can't, like, it doesn't matter. Great. You took it off. It's a it's a it's a blob. Right?   You'd have to break   the the MCU   as well to get the secret to decrypt the the seed.   So you have to break both.   Now,   when you spin it up, when you turn it on, it decrypts   it decrypts   the the seed, right, so that the MCU can sign stuff because the MCU   uses open source   libraries   to do all the crypto stuff.  



[04:07:20] Unknown:

So it is so   okay. So you use oh, that makes sense.  

[04:07:25] Unknown:

So you you get you you get a real  

[04:07:28] Unknown:

private key into your memory so that you can use open source software and feed it that private key. Yep.   So you don't have like a black box set up? No. There's no black box.   I would love to been shitposting in the bottom   left hand corner of the screen this whole time. I have been. Yes. I have been.  

[04:07:54] Unknown:

I just wanna say thank you to all the freaks who have joined us, tonight.   This has been pretty extraordinary. This is the longest episode in Tales from the Crypt history. Do we still have people live there?   What? And we still have people live here. Yes. We are still we still have the true freaks are here live with us,  

[04:08:14] Unknown:

4 hours later. You freaks are fucking heroes, man, to hear us. It's impressive. It's fucking impressive.  

[04:08:22] Unknown:

And I appreciate both of you guys for joining us. I think you're gonna join us many more times in   the future.   This is just the beginning.  

[04:08:32] Unknown:

And, do you have any do you have any final words?   The block lock mini is no longer back ordered.   Paul?  

[04:08:43] Unknown:

Pump the cord.  

[04:08:47] Unknown:

We love you all. We thank you. I'm grateful for every single fucking one of you. Together, we will go to the moon. Cheers.   Awesome.  

[04:09:07] Unknown:

It's nappy. I won.  

[04:09:11] Unknown:

Hey, yo, Street. The country boys is back. It's 6 o'clock. It's time to have a good day. I got up this morning, and I said I'm a do something for the United Streets of America.   So I got Natty Rooch in here. I I got Big Al 3 60 in here. This is Greg Street certified. And today, yeah, you're gonna see another street boy playing together.  

[04:12:58] Unknown:

Love you freaks. Stay humble. Stack sets.