Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 78

BLOCK: 761419

PRICE: 4889 sats per dollar

TOPICS: personal experiences, austin and bitcoin, launching pleblab, supporting builders, open source culture, grassroots bitcoin, collaboration

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[00:00:33] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel Dispatch.   I know it's been a month.   I hope you've been enjoying the other content, the external content I've been posting to the feed.   There's a lot of great conversations in there.   I've been quietly working behind the scenes on a bunch of different projects. I haven't forgotten about you all. I was hoping   that we were gonna get to do.   I I was I was kind of holding out wanting to do more in person,   RIPS in our new studio in Nashville at Bitcoin Park,   We've been dealing with some family things.  

All is good on that front. It should be back in Nashville sometime soon.   But in the meantime,   we're gonna rip some remote   remote conversations   to keep it going and because I missed you all.   With all that said, Dispatch,   as you freaks know, is a show focused on actionable discussion.   It is a live show   with active chat participation. I appreciate all the freaks who joined the chat. It's also an ad free, sponsor free value for value show that's a 100% funded by the audience.   There's a lot of haters out there right now that say audience funding cannot work, that the ad model is the only way to go. I appreciate you all helping to prove them wrong.   The amount of support I get from you freaks is truly incredible. It is really cool seeing the sats   flow directly into my lightning node. Easiest way to support the show   is through podcasting 2 point o apps, such as Fountain Podcasts,   Breezewallet,   echoln.com,   and Podverse   dotfm.  

You simply   load the app up with some sats, search Zillow Dispatch in the app, press subscribe, choose how many SATs per minute you think the show is worth,   and   it will automatically   send those stats directly to my note as you listen.   There's also a feature called boostograms.   Boostograms   allow you to attach a message to a single payment.   Basically, you can think of it as a   global message board   comment section,   with payments included.   It's great to see the freaks,   supporting that way as well. I'm able to,   all of us are able to read them, but I do read the top 4 from the previous episode.   Since dispatch hasn't gone for a month, I will be reading multiple of them in a second. But before I get there, you can also support   by   going to cildispatch.com. I have a BTC pay server there. You can support using   on chain or lightning.  

I have   a BIP 47   reusable payment code and a pay name attached to that. That pay name is Odell. All of this is listed at sidildispatch.com.   And I know it is a bear market. If you do not have sets to support the show,   you can obviously support dispatch by sharing with your friends and family or subscribing in your favorite podcast app,   YouTube, Twitch, Twitter.   It's on it's on all the platforms, Rumble, Bitcoin TV. Just search it all dispatch. Share with your friends and family. It is appreciated.   Okay.   I actually nailed that pretty good considering we haven't done this in a month.   I am going to read   select boostograms   from the freaks. We had CD 77 was,   an awesome dispatch conversation,   that was focused on silent link. We have Eric 99,   contributed 50,000 sats. He said, stay humble and stack sats. Really great advice, Eric.  

We had Vake saying very helpful episode. Thanks. The intro music is weirdly soothing.   Thank you, Vake. He contributed 14,000   sats.   Previously,   we had,   the Adam Back episode, CD 75, which I really enjoyed that conversation.   We had Nate Johnson contribute 50,000 sats saying, this show is invaluable. I appreciate all you do for the space. Hope your family is okay.   Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.   I also was putting the Bitcoin dot review episodes that I was doing with NVK on the dispatch feed   before he told me I wasn't allowed to do that anymore.   And   we had letter 6173   with 7,000   777   sat saying all signal and 0 noise, amazing show.  

Last but not least, I put   my Bitcoin Amsterdam 2022 conversation on the feed,   which you freaks seem to appreciate.   And we had Mallard Quackenbush   contribute 50,000 sats saying free Ross. We had cryosats   contributing 25,000 sats saying fight the good fight.   Hashtag cryosats.   So cheers. Oh, wait. This one's even better.   Gotta read this one.   And we have at stimmy with 21,000 sats saying, fuck fatfa and fuck circle 2. So on that note, we will continue to the show. I appreciate all you freaks.   We have a great conversation lined up. It's actually one of the conversations that I was really excited to have in person.   We tried to make it happen in person, but, unfortunately,   we weren't able to.  

So we have,   the Pleb Lab crew from Austin   on the show today, and we're gonna have a really great conversation about Pleb Lab.   We'll start with, we have we have thriller x Carr, my my former producer and  

[00:06:03] Unknown:

partner in crime over at Rabbit Hole Recap. How's it going, Carr? Hey. How's it going, Matt? Thanks for having me on the show.  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

Carr is also the cofounder of ClubLab, hence this conversation. And then we have,   another cofounder of ClubLab, Kyle,   at the Bitcoin Bum. How's it going, Kyle? It's going alright. My dude, how about yourself?   Very good. Very good. I'm excited for this conversation. It's good to be back on air with dispatch with y'all.   Okay.   We have John,   who is,   the founder of Zaprite,   a company that is based in Austin and works out of the Pleb Lab.   How's it going, John?  

[00:06:41] Unknown:

It's Going great. Stoked to be here.  

[00:06:44] Unknown:

Thanks for joining us.   So with all that said, I mean, I think the   best way to start this conversation is,   what is   Pleb Lab?  

[00:06:58] Unknown:

Yeah. Great question. I think,   it's it's been an interesting journey over the past year kind of really trying to figure out ourselves what the answer to that question is.   But plain and simple, we are a pleb driven,   accelerator program for the Bitcoin era.  

[00:07:18] Unknown:

I love it.   So I have,   the title of this episode is building a Bitcoin city with Pleb Lab.   Austin has obviously   become   a   mag has some kind of magnetic pull for Bitcoiners. It has become one of the predominant Bitcoin cities of the world, let alone America.   Obviously, Pleb Lab has has been and you your crew over there has been playing a key role in that. Like, how do you   how do you think about your role in Austin   and how that,   you know, how how that affects the the Publabs strategy as you guys build out here?  

[00:08:01] Unknown:

It's it's,   it's kind of fluid. It changes   day to day, month to month. A lot of things in the space move really quickly and and changes happen fast, so we try our best to kind of stay flexible and make the changes that we need to when we need to. I think early on when we   I mean, honestly,   pre pleb lab when we started the Austin Bitcoin Club,   the idea was just, like, a bunch of us seemed to be arriving in the city.   There was only kind of, like, one time and place per month where everybody was actually getting together,   which was at the time the bit depths over at Unchained Capital.  

And we launched Austin Bitcoin Club with just kind of a selfish desire to get together with Bitcoiners more often.   And the more often we hung out with the Bitcoin scene and the people that were arriving and and the people that were deciding to stay,   the more we realized there was just kind of, like, an unanswered question.   The the bat signal was out there saying if you're a builder, come to Austin,   but the the question that wasn't answered was like, what's next? And, we just basically tried to keep answering that question. It was, like, what's next?   That what's next after getting a group of people together seemed to be finding a way to get developers together on a more regular basis   and that grew into what we call PubLab today.  



[00:09:26] Unknown:

I guess, like, your   I mean, since I have you, Kyle, your personal story,   you were drawn to Austin and Bitcoin kinda at the same time. Right?  

[00:09:38] Unknown:

Yeah. It happened pretty fast. I mean, I learned about Bitcoin in 2016,   but really, really, really briefly.   And it was not a thing that I, like, went deep down the rabbit hole with at that time. I spent 4 years on kind of a spiritual journey around the world,   and everywhere I went, I just kept meeting random people that would that would discuss Bitcoin with me, kind of diving into several hours long conversations,   kind of piecing my understanding of it together.   I didn't get skin in the game until,   June   or July of 2020   during the pandemic kind of towards the tail end of the madness with the stock market after the crash.  

And shortly after I got into it,   I realized that it it kind of   I mean, I came to the conclusion that Bitcoin played a pivotal role   in producing the most peaceful possible transition of power, and post military, I had always had this feeling that some type of revolution was imminent. So once I realized that I had found kind of, like, a a a premier puzzle piece for that   that transition,   I basically ended up going all in.   While visiting some family in Dallas, I heard whispers in the wind,   about this scene that was happening   in Austin. I came down. I saw a 125   Bitcoiners   in the unchained space with no masks on, and I just never left.  



[00:11:12] Unknown:

Love it.  

[00:11:15] Unknown:

And I guess, John, you kinda have a similar story. Right?  

[00:11:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly.   I mean,   I was, like, I was initially drawn to Austin because of Bitcoin Twitter. Obviously, probably like a lot of us. It was just so much, like, signal on there about what's going on in Austin.   And I   was in Canada.   Actually, funny enough, I'm back here right now. But, I was   in Canada at the time, and I was kinda just, like, living up in the mountains kind of, like, away from society and, you know, not really kind of had much interaction with Bitcoiners at all other than kinda working on this little hobby project and trying to, like, reach out to people.   And so when I kinda left, I just decided to do a little bit of traveling. I landed down in Austin. And just immediately,   the the difference was just massive. Like, you could sense it, like, straight away that there was something, like, you know, really crazy, like, bubbling up, in Austin.  

And so yeah. Right from the start, it just started to, you know, everything just started to kinda snowball for me personally just because of   people, like, meeting Kyle and Car and Keyon and guys at Pleb Lab and Austin Bitcoin Club.   It just it just offered this amazing, like, place to get together and chat to people and and figure out what was going on.   I think there was, like, a BitDevs,   like, 3 days after I arrived in Austin or something. And I remember going into the old Unchained office, and it was, like, a sweat box. It was, like, 250 people in there. And, like, you could couldn't really talk to anybody, and then you're going out for barbecue afterwards. And it's like, you know, it's it's great, but it's kinda hard to have these, like, you know, deeper conversations.   And then I went to, like, the Austin Bitcoin Club, and that was just way more casual and much more, like, kinda chill. And that's where I met so many different people. I could have, like, you know,   more kind of, like, you know, longer deeper conversations.  

And then obviously, like, after a couple of days, like, I met Kyle and, you know, we we started talking about this idea for pleb lab and things like that, and then that kind of, like, grew from there.   But, yeah, just immediately like, once you land in Austin, you can immediately sense that there's something something going on, and it's in no small part to to these guys here, obviously.  

[00:13:25] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's extremely impressive what you all have built over there. I mean, obviously, we've been taking a lot of inspiration   for that in Nashville with Bitcoin Park and just the community initiatives we have. I mean, you mentioned BitDevs. We've been doing a for the last year, we've had a very strong meet up,   scene in Bitcoin meetup scene in Nashville, but we finally launched, proper BitDevs.   I was you know, I'm I'm formally from New York   where we had the OG of BitDevs.   So I have a lot of respect for BitDevs, and I I was one of the proponents that, like, refused to   launch 1,   until   until we were, you know, set to do it the right way. But we have our 2nd bid devs ever is going to be   tonight at Bitcoin Park. So if you are in the Nashville area, you should consider going.  

Car,   AODM.  

[00:14:18] Unknown:

Just before I get lost in there, man, there's a a comment from notleo.   Pleb at plebweb   are also are you also a contact for international plebs randomly passing through Austin?   Yes. For sure. Reach out to us.   You can hit us on the Twitter handle   at pleb lab, or feel free to reach out to any of the the founders and shoot us a DM. We're we're always looking to work with cool people who are swinging through Austin.  

[00:14:45] Unknown:

Awesome.   Yeah. Now Leo said that in our matrix chat,   which   anyone can join at,   citadel dispatch.com if you click that citadel chat button. The matrix chat is extremely active. We over have over a 1000 Bitcoiners that are constantly talking about   really cool things.   It is obviously broadcast   live during civil dispatches, but conversation happens there 247, 365.   So consider joining,   Self hosted, end to end encrypted.   Not that you really have any privacy in a group chat, because any one of those, a 1000 people could be spooks. We probably have at least   12 spooks in the in the chat.  

Carr,   you left me a rabbit hole recap to do Pleb Lab full time.   Sorry. How's that going?  

[00:15:35] Unknown:

It's going good.   One of the things that I realized,   you know, doing doing rabbit hole recap and working with Marty is just, like, the amount of   just media knowledge that I learned from y'all and then just how to conduct yourselves in the Bitcoin space. I think most apparent point, we also learned, like, the work ethic that you guys have.   But it was it was amazing to see to see it on a daily basis with with, with Marty   and kinda understand, like, what it takes to actually run a company and and be successful at it. I think for me, like,   starting out that way and doing it that way was, like, the best way to get into the Bitcoin space. I I just got extremely lucky and extremely blessed.  

And, it got to a certain point. Like, once we moved into the lab, it was it was kinda obvious to me that   there was absolutely no way   I I could do both jobs to the greatest of my ability anymore.   And I think that's that that was, like, the main reason,   to focus entirely on on Pleb Lab,   was to give everything to it just like I had given everything to, like, TFTC.   You know?   So yeah.  

[00:16:48] Unknown:

And you also,   took away from t well, first of all, I would wanna say I'm very, you know, I'm very excited for you guys.   And,   I was, you know, I was joke I mean, obviously, I miss you   at rabbit hole recap, but, I was very happy when you told me the news.   We,   you also took you also took away from TFTC   TFTC   your   love   of borderline,   trademark infringement,   since all of your shows that you guys seem to be launching out of ClubLab,   all   are have the same acronyms   as as popular shows just coincidentally.  

[00:17:32] Unknown:

I think I think that has more to do with,   you know, showing how all these fiat companies   are   not going to exist anymore once Bitcoin kind of becomes a standard, and it's just like sending a message. You know?   That's how I look at it. I don't know if that's how the rest of the guys look at it, but it's more about, like, kind of sending a message to the Fiat establishment that we're coming.  

[00:17:55] Unknown:

Hey, Matt. You you also brought this up,   at the the meetup in Nashville, and and I had a very similar answer back then. I I kind of joked around. But, honestly,   after we left Nashville,   it dawned on me that,   to be honest, we just kind of copied you guys. You really inspired that from the beginning with TFTC,   the first copyright infringement among this  

[00:18:19] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's true. I didn't think about that. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:18:21] Unknown:

Yeah. Martin's I mean Yeah. I don't know what you're talking about. TFTC is a completely unique name that was just thought of   just thought of randomly one day.  

[00:18:30] Unknown:

I saw the shirts, Matt. I saw the shirts.  

[00:18:35] Unknown:

So, I mean,   we're on this tangent. So, like, how do you, obviously, Pleb Lab is a physical community space,   but you guys also have,   all this content. And   in Nashville,   we've been implementing a a relatively similar strategy. We often call it,   locally produced, globally distributed, where you're building local community and in person events, but also at the same time, you're producing content   that is distributed around the world.   How do you guys like, how does that fit into the   and how do you guys think about that when you're thinking about the Publabs strategy?  

[00:19:13] Unknown:

I I personally I personally look at it, like, really simply, and it's I kinda got it more from the devs than anybody else. It's just like building in public.   You're seeing the legends of lightning guys do that.   You know, I was I was able to talk to John's a couple of times before they launched that, and   he had a lot of questions about that. And I I told him it was like it's it like, all the other guys that are rubbing off on us, here inside the lab, all these other devs that build in public, Mind you, a lot of them are NIMs, but there's something to be said about, you know, pushing code up to GitHub and everybody seeing everybody verifying it. So that's kinda how the way I look at it. And then the other thing, just from, like, a PlubLab perspective,   is just the amount of people you can inspire. Right? It's how many other labs are are being created because they see us   here in Austin doing what we're doing. And I think that that's another thing that's really important   is showing people that there is a light out there and we can break through it,   just by   these little pieces of media that that go out to the masses.  



[00:20:12] Unknown:

That building in the open comment is really interesting because,   I mean, I've I've personally taken a lot of influence,   from our open source community.   You know, I came to the realization   years ago, basically, after the Snowden leaks that are only   shot at freedom and sovereignty was was the open source movement, Bitcoin and the greater open source movement. And since then, I've kind of tried to model   everything I do off of that movement.   And it's it's it's super interesting how it is obvious   in   open source   developer culture,   the way they do things. But when you try and model it for other things, people think you're crazy. So, like, for civil dispatch,   it's live, it's unedited,   it has uncensored live chat that anyone can participate in. I don't have ads or sponsors. It's completely funded via donations of our audience.  

People think that's crazy. Open Sats, you know, we as a 100% pass through, we don't take a salary out of it. We pass   all any funds donated or passed to, you know, directly to open source contributors.   People think we're absolutely crazy for that. Why don't we take,   you know, why don't we take a 5% vig off of all donations like all the other nonprofits do?   So it should be interesting   watching this, you know, new generation as this open source movement gets stronger and stronger, kind of take that similar model and and implement it on various   different initiatives.  

I think it could be very significant. I think people are really underestimating,   how powerful that model is.  

[00:21:54] Unknown:

I think   this this, like,   open source modeling, it it comes up a lot especially as we are, like, really getting more and more focused on working with startups,   and the the real kind of challenge of finding the the balance between open source and actually   earning an income with that open source kind of ethos.   And I I think the balance is really important to touch on because open source is important. Like, PlugLab has kind of been open source since the very beginning. Anybody that has reached out   asking, like, how we've done what we've done, like, how are we structuring it? I've given everything I have to anybody who's asked,   but I but I also think it is important to note that   if you are out there and you're looking at trying to start a company, but you're trying to keep it on an open source model,   there's something to be said about   timing and figuring out how all of that works, because   it is true that open source is great, like, information being free is great, like, let the best man win.  

But I think at the same time, like, people who are trying to grow out this ecosystem,   the people who are inspired to build,   it's important that they are meeting their own kind of needs. Right? Like, it's very difficult   to help anybody else if you are not first taking care of yourself. If you find yourself in a place where, like, you have no financial worries at all, and you can just free and open source everything right from the get go, I think that's great. I think keeping some things close to your chest in the early days is also a completely valid   approach because,   like, if you're starving and you can't keep a roof over your head and you can't, like, put food in your family's belly, like, you can't really help anybody else out either. So  

[00:23:43] Unknown:

Yeah. And too, Matt, also, like, when we had that,   when we had that that panel talk at at UT about couple weeks ago, this was a question that they they asked in the room. Like, this this is the these graduate students were asking us, like, well, why would I go and create on Bitcoin if it's open source? Like, how do I make that into a a startup?   And I think I think John and Keyon had, like, really great answers. John, do you remember what exactly you told them?  

[00:24:12] Unknown:

I don't remember exactly   what the answer I think my answer   because I think you guys all thought that's upright was open source, so I got, like,   caught up in that.   I think my I think my answer was more that, like, instead of going the open source route, which you know is upright probably will eventually, like, I'm a huge fan of open source, and I definitely wanna have, like, at least, you know, a start 9 or Umbral app or something you can run on your node that will be, like, just completely open source. You can pull it down and run it. That that will definitely come eventually.   But I think my answer in that panel in UT was more to do with the fact that I'm focusing on the self custody aspect of it.  

Is that, you know, that's my kind of important   goal, at least now in the early stages of Zappar. It's just to build the tools that allow for people to to keep doing self custody   rather than trying to build a custodial model,   and have it, like, open source. You know, if you're doing if you're promoting self custody and you're building the tools that allow for self custody,   then the open source part is important, but it's not as important. Right? Because we're not actually, like, custodying funds or doing anything that could, like, take anybody's money.   But still, you know, it would be good to actually show the code that's running under underneath it.  

But, yeah, it's a huge it's a huge aspect of of building, and I love to see it particularly in the Bitcoin ecosystem. There's a lot of it. And it's definitely, you know, viable. Look at what Keyon is doing with Stacker News. Like, it's definitely,   an option to build. There's so many open source,   companies out there that are that are thriving. So it's great to see.  

[00:25:42] Unknown:

Is Stacker News open source?  

[00:25:44] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Completely.  

[00:25:46] Unknown:

Yeah. So just for the freaks Yeah. Stack Stagger News is founded by,   the 3rd cofounder of PlebLab, who unfortunately couldn't join us, Keyon.  

[00:25:57] Unknown:

I was gonna say, Matt.   Yeah. I was gonna say that that's the thing that I realized early on was just from talking with Keyon is, like, there's a way to do it. Like, there's a way to do both. It's a fine line to walk, but it can be done.   And it's just like keeping the the IP, the the whether whether it's the Web of Trust or or whatever algorithm that he's implementing on the back end. Like, maybe that's the that's the stuff that he keeps close to the chest and everything else is open source.   We're gonna have him do a web of trust workshop here   in a couple weeks, so   we'll be able to to see kinda how all that works. But I know he was talking to Carballo a lot when he was kinda developing that. So I think there is something to it. It's it it just has to be done in in a very careful and and,   you know, obviously, fine line way. So  

[00:26:47] Unknown:

Tony's asking where the source is, but, we can just let him go look for it. Oh, good. Told him where it is. Yeah. You can tell him. It's interesting, actually, where the trust of is is probably not I can understand if that's not   fully open sourced, but the the rest of it is absolutely. Yeah. That's Look. I mean, it it depends it depends on on on what what type of company you're running and a bunch of different nuances, and there's,   you know one of our favorite things to do on dispatch is argue about open source licensing because there's so many different licenses you can use.   In Stacker News' case,   is I think is a perfect example of something where   the most value of it,   is accrued to   the brand and the network effect of the brand.  

So, yeah, like, if I have the source, I can go and create my own version of Stacker News.   But unless, like, he absolutely fucks up management of Stacker dot news, like, that's gonna be where the majority of users are   and a site that has more users in that context is is a more useful tool.   So,   I actually think that's a perfect example where,   you know, you can have your cake while also you you can monetize relatively easily,   while also providing the source.   And then there's there's basically 2 arguments   for   why open source is important.  

One is the false argument, which is free in open source software, just a high level here just to get this out here since we're talking about it, where you're actually allowing anyone to take the code,   change it, don't change it, distribute it, sell it, brand it however they want, do whatever they want with the code, that's extremely   helpful from a censorship resistant and robustness of the movement point of view because it means that this code is viral. It doesn't die with any individual or company and will outlive us all. And then you have the source viewable licenses, which many will argue is not fully open source,   because it isn't.  

And those licenses basically say you can't do anything with the code.   This is to the extreme. You can't do anything with the code,   but you can view it and you can expect it and you can verify it. And that becomes very important when you're talking about sensitive activities,   stuff like encrypted messaging,   stuff like managing   Bitcoin secrets, Bitcoin private keys,   and being able to verify that even though the service is saying it's encrypted or even though the service is saying your keys are secure,   that's actually the case and they're not doing some funny business there. So those are the two main reasons why open source   is important,   and it's up to, you know,   individuals and and companies to decide how that fits in their model, but I think   it is,   it is mostly a myth that you can't monetize an open source. I think people just it might be a little bit more difficult,   but, ultimately,   it can be significantly more powerful,   when you get there, and it doesn't have to be right away. Like, there there shouldn't be a necessarily a rush right in the beginning to do it.  

But it should ideally be on most people's,   radar,  

[00:30:06] Unknown:

especially if they're building Bitcoin tools. What were you saying, Carr? I I was gonna say it's it's one of the things that he he's he's always hit home with me on since I've met him   last year, like, in the like, in the early days before Securus, like, really, really launched.   And just hanging out with them and talking with them every day and spending time with them, I've come to, like, come to realize he's been right on a lot of things over time. And what I try to do at Publub is really focus on the users. It's it goes back to his ethos of, like, focusing on the users and making sure that they're happy, and what do you need to do to make sure that the the user base increases   and what do they need. And I think for us at Publub, I think we're talking about this open source model how that can influence a lot of these labs being built. And I think that's one of those things that I really hit home on is that if we focus on the users, we focus on the devs inside the space,   I think we'll be successful doing it. I I I don't think it's as it's as hard as people think.  

I think Keyon has proved over time that when you build a platform like a Snacker News or or even in the real world like a like a ABC or or a ClubLab,   This can be done if you focus on the people inside the lab, inside the club, inside   the inside the platform, so   just wanna throw that out there.  

[00:31:19] Unknown:

So we have, Rissa Labs,   in the comments on Matrix.   They are asking, is Pleb Lab a place for nontechnical   plebs  

[00:31:29] Unknown:

too? Yeah. I saw I saw that question, and then it got it got lost in time. But, the the answer is yes,   in some regards. So desk space on, like, a day to day basis is,   extremely limited due to just the kind of nature of, of the size of the space and the amount of money I have to spend on desks.   That being said, outside of our kind of day to day   co working where we we are kind of hyper focused on   technical folks,   adding kind of mind space to the like, act it really the co working space acts as a synergistic kind of side   to our accelerator program. That being said, we do have a lot of things that we we do. We have our PBS. We have our weekend   kind of low level technical,   workshops that we do on Saturdays. There's a lot of things that we do that are open to, like, non devs and and nontechnical folks as well, so, yes, the answer is yes and no.  



[00:32:37] Unknown:

Okay.   Shall we   go back to your comment about,   you know, building a a   you you mentioned,   wrestling with open source   when it comes to   helping startups in the space,   at Pleb Lab. I mean, we have John here.   He, you know, I guess he started John, like, how does Zap Right   did how did Pleb Lab help with   you building out Zap. Right? And how do you ex hope to see them go forward as they, like, kind of more formalize,   you know, working with builders directly.  

[00:33:19] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well, for me, I kinda touched on it a little bit earlier about, you know, I kind of came down into Austin and wasn't really you know, didn't have much connection with the Bitcoin community even though I've been in Bitcoin for, like, quite a while before I started Zap. Right?   But one of the things,   you know, that immediately helped was just the fact that they were running Austin Bitcoin Club, and I could just meet up and and have very social interactions with other Bitcoiners.   So that was, like, just immensely helpful just from getting into a new city and, like, you know, making new friends and meeting people and figuring out the lay of the land.   But very quickly, I think within within a couple of days of of being in Austin, I met Kyle and we chatted about his idea for Pleb Lab. And I think he kind of offered me the first, like, desk in there,   to kinda come in. And and that was that was huge because   it just gave me, like, this co working space to kind of, like,   sit and start thinking about Zap right on a deeper level and figure out, okay. Well, like, you know,   this seems to be something here. There's a lot of people who are, like, excited about it, thinking about it. I should think about setting up a company. How do I do that? Of course, these guys had, like, you know, plenty of contacts that they had made from their their couple of months of already, like, hosting events in Capital Factory in Austin. So there's plenty of people to reach out to about that.  

And then as more and more developers, like, started to come in,   you know, it was just amazing to be able to sit in the same, like, small little office around other, like,   like, well known, well respected, like, Bitcoin developers.   And then, of course, all the founders came in, Michael from Oshi,   you know, bunch of other people.   And that that on a personal level, that just helped me so much because it just got me to to think I'd never started a company before. So it got me to think about how, you know, founders think about different things, what's important, like, what's what you should be kind of focusing on.   And then, of course, there was just the the the massive amount of, like, community events and things that they were running, like Block Party and things like that that were just exposing   Zaprite   and Bitcoin in general to, like, just a huge audience, which was, of course, you know, putting more of a spotlight on what was happening in Austin, which then attracted, like, VCs. And there was so many different, like, VCs and people passing through Austin.  

And then I just got to have so many more of those meetings. And then, of course, like, formed a company and started raising money. And all of that, I think, was, like, you know, not possible until I came down to Austin and met with these guys and, like, kind of   just, like, landed on their springboard and basically was able to just, you know,   piggyback on all of the the proof of work that these guys were putting in.   I think it just accelerated   Zaprite's,   like, journey immensely,   and my own personal one as well. I made so many amazing friends in Like, it's unbelievable.   But, yeah, I mean, in terms of helping Zap, right, just   just general marketing events, like community events, different things   that were constantly happening,   hackathons,   workshops, like sponsorships,   just really, really good stuff to get the word out there, about SOPRITE and was, like, hugely beneficial, especially in those early days.  



[00:36:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I've sometimes I feel like I've known you for a decade, but it's probably closer to a year. I think I think you're we were introduced through Carr.  

[00:36:44] Unknown:

I think, actually, it was probably earlier than that. I think through Vivek from Blockstream. Right? We jumped on a video call. It was Vivek  

[00:36:51] Unknown:

because you had liquid support.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember that thing. Also a mainstay of the Austin community.   Yeah. Vivint's awesome. Yeah. In our first call, you were doing that from the old pleb lab, I think.  

[00:37:05] Unknown:

Yeah. That first call we jumped on was   was in yeah. It was just in the capital factory, the old blah blah. Yeah.  

[00:37:13] Unknown:

The new space is awesome.  

[00:37:15] Unknown:

Yeah. It's great. Yeah. So, yeah, I think from that and then I think Carr introduced me to Marty, obviously, like being in Austin. And, you know, got on great with Marty and was just able to kinda tell him a lot more about what Saffron is trying to do and the bigger vision and stuff, and then, obviously, like, jumped on more calls with you guys. And Tony,  

[00:37:35] Unknown:

we have Tony in the comments, another ride or die freak,   saying someone uses liquid question mark. I think that was the conclusion of our  

[00:37:44] Unknown:

conclusion of our talk is that nobody uses liquid. I see Tony using liquid all the time inside of ClubLab. What is he talking about?  

[00:37:51] Unknown:

Well, the funniest part is everyone was freaking out yesterday about the l and d bug,   which   made all the l and d nodes fall out of sync. But, if   and by the way, Freaks, there's gonna be a dispatch very shortly,   on that topic. It's gonna be great. So if you're not subscribed on the podcast feed, make sure you subscribe to that.   But everyone was talking about the l and d bug.   And meanwhile, if if if the liquid Twitter account had tweeted out that they were having issues as well, I don't think anyone would have noticed.  

[00:38:24] Unknown:

At least they're all Is is Tony not building LiquidSploit?  

[00:38:27] Unknown:

No?  

[00:38:29] Unknown:

Yeah. Tony, when LiquidSploit?  

[00:38:32] Unknown:

I think you said he should hack a new sploit first.  

[00:38:35] Unknown:

Hack a new yeah. Now that he has the now that he has the source.   So   Kyle and Carr, to build on what John said, I mean, obviously, Pleb Lab was very early then. Those are just,   you know, kind of knock on effects of the community building that you guys are doing in Austin. Like, how do you how do you look at supporting companies, you know, in a in a stronger way going forward? Like, what do you build on top of of that early,   very positive experience that John just shared?  

[00:39:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, so here's the thing. It's, like, when we   launched Pleb Lab as I as I kind of touched on much earlier on, it was really just   a community of people that showed up to our Austin Bitcoin Club   that had a kind of repetitive desire to get developers together,   and all we did was we kind of kept running with that question of, like, what's next?   And for us, that seemed obvious. It was like, let's just find a way to get developers together more often.   Pleb Lab spawned.   When we started Pleb Lab, it like, we kind of got really lucky that I had orange pill the VP of operations   at the Capital Factory,   and they gave us, like, a 3 month trial period   for free with a 10 person office space.  

And   knowing   full well that, like, we were not   an accelerator program. We had, like, an idea that what we could put together   inside of a physical space with founders   and really brilliant devs was something similar   to an accelerator,   but we also knew that we were not an accelerator. We were 3 plebs with a 10 person office   and a belief that we could help people.   And what we did with the guys like John and and everybody else who came into that first cohort, if you will,   was we basically gave it away   with the idea that, like, over time we could find a way to trend towards a business model and a deeper understanding of what we do,   and that's kind of where we're at now. As time has gone on, we went to   I mean, you you were in some of the conversations back and forth with me kind of helping me piece it all together, but, like, we went through   dozens, if not hundreds of iterations of, like, how to kind of   explain the business model that we have here.  

And what we've kind of alluded to today is that we are   an accelerator program kind   of rebuilt for the Bitcoin era and   for two reasons.   It was rebuilt because   necessity. We were not like a $1,000,000,000   exit CEO who just, like, wanted to start a Bitcoin accelerator program with, like, fun money,   but also   because it actually seemed to us necessary to kind of reimagine the accelerator program for the Bitcoin era, because this is not,   a new technology.   It's the new technology,   And I think that   there's value in the accelerated models of the past, but I think for the way that Bitcoin's being built with it being free and open source,   there's a lot of nuances in this technological   era that are significantly   different than web 2,   and we've really tried to take an approach that kind of reorients   an accelerator program to make more sense,   for the startups we work with today.  

So basically,   some of the differences that we see right now are that we like, we don't do cohorts. I use the term for lack of, like, really a better   term.   When we find rock stars who are building really cool things,   if they're ready to work with us, we're ready to work with them. We will start day 1 as soon as they show up.   We also don't really have,   end dates. We   will work with you as long as you wanna work with us. Our our kind of,   goal is a first round of fundraising.   So we,   include   free access to our space and all of our resources for as long as it takes to get our startups funded.   After that, we hope that they wanna stick around and continue to add brainpower and understanding of the ecosystem for for entrepreneurship,   for the next   group of people coming through.  

But, yeah, it's basically, like, indefinite   assistance,   because, really, what we've built here isn't just like a business model. It it has become a business, but, really, it's a group of friends   who care about one another and want to see each other and the Bitcoin ecosystem succeed, and I think that's probably the biggest difference between us and the the   the kind of fiat competition   accelerator programs of the past.   What we do   also, Matt, is, like,   we have a kind of umbrella   program.   We we kind of know, like, where we get started and kind of how to road map towards the end of the fundraising,   but we also tailor every single,   approach to the founder's needs with where they are as a founder and a company when they come through the door because each and every founder has a a different   set of skills and a different set of needs when they come to us.  



[00:44:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I think Awesome. Just to piggyback what Kyle is saying, I I think the biggest thing that we found out, Matt, over the course of, you know, a year at this point doing this is that,   each each person, each individual, each Bitcoiner, each founder is different. And and they're different in in in, like, a lot of different skill sets, but a a lot of different paths of where they are in in their life and and in their company's life. And what we try to do is just really   look at look at it from a how can we help perspective,   and then we get them plugged into the people that they need help with. Right? And then   we even do one better where we try to really game plan, like a rollout, kind of like a, a a a a   an entryway to launching their company.  

I I've I've come to realize that doing it that way,   especially with Bitcoiners, is is just the easier way and more natural way to do it as opposed to forcing people in a cohort and forcing them to,   you know, get done by a certain time, like, sure that works. But   where we're located inside of Austin,   it's not really Austin me, I should say, like, to to do that. It's more Austin's kinda very laid back and chill, and it's a like, the city that we're in   plays a big role in how we kinda run the accelerator right now. I I would say I don't know if Kyle believes that, but I I certainly see it. You look at a lot of the Austin   main state companies here, it's a very relaxed environment.  

And,   people like to work hard, but they also like to   relax.  

[00:45:36] Unknown:

Well, I think just also the other thing that,   is is kind of something that we do here,   with the program that we've put together, and and you touched on it, I think, before we started recording, Matt, is that,   we're really scrappy because we had to be. We're   aiming to assist startups   while ourselves   being a startup,   and that has had that has had an, like, a profound effect on our own kind of critical thinking about how to operate.   We're not   giving start ups $250,000.   We're not flying them halfway around the world and putting them up in lodging, but what we are doing is is   giving them   our blood, sweat, and tear equity. Like, we we're putting in literally everything we have every single day,   and we are, like it's not just proof of work. It's like compounding proof of work. The people who are in the program today, like, our first round of, like, the official   accelerator program in pleb lab phase 2, we've seen   tremendous   growth and,   a kind of, like,   ease, if you will, relative   to the first cohort. Because not only have we learned a lot about what we're doing, but we also have a ton of other people around who have learned a lot about this space. And we're all kind of compounding that proof of work over and over and over again, and it just kind of gets exponentially   better.  



[00:47:06] Unknown:

Yeah. You're building with,   in you're you're almost appear in the building process.  

[00:47:13] Unknown:

Yes. Correct. I mean, there was some real challenges in that model in the beginning because we brought in a couple of founders, and we brought in a couple of really smart people like Tony Georgio here in the chat.   And, like, as we were a peer in the process ourselves   kind of, like, on the brink regularly   of kind of, like, okay. How are we going to pay the bills   next week? How are we gonna pay the bills next month? There were some real struggle points where it was, like, okay. We're actually kind of pushing people away with   this energy of, like, kind of doom and gloom on a regular basis, and it took a long time to work through that.  

But it it I think in the long run, it strengthened all of us because we all had to kind of go through the same struggles together,   and we've come out stronger forward on the other side.  

[00:48:03] Unknown:

Well, all that is great, but, Tony wants to know if he can play his pleb lab bill with liquid.  

[00:48:11] Unknown:

I don't I don't know. Do you take you take liquid on Zap. Right? Right?  

[00:48:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. He does. He does. We don't take liquid  

[00:48:18] Unknown:

at Pleb Lab.  

[00:48:20] Unknown:

Sorry, Tony. Rugged again. You're gonna have to convert that liquid BTC to to regular Bitcoin.   So another thing I wanted to touch on was   something that we're also doing in Nashville,   which, by the way, I hope the theme of this this show is is   a budding and prosperous partnership   between Pleb Lab and Bitcoin Park.  

[00:48:48] Unknown:

Absolutely.   Yeah.   Just real quick, Matt. We've learned so much from y'all. Like   like, going over there and hanging out with you and Rod and seeing how y'all do things, like, it's made us, like, more aware of, like, where we're failing. Right? It's it's seeing the things that you guys do really, really well and, like, saying, how can we do the same thing at Plubhub? It's really learning from each other. And even seeing Terminus and seeing those guys in Atlanta and learning from them, it's   it it it's gonna take all of us to figure this out. Like, that's what I believe.  

[00:49:19] Unknown:

100%.   But where I was going with it is so we have been focused   we have 2 universities,   Belmont and Vanderbilt   that are blocks away from Bitcoin Park. And we've had you know, we're, like, starting   various initiatives,   with those students.   You guys mentioned,   UT,   University of Texas.   I guess all 3 of you went and presented   there. How do you how do you think about,   I also saw a picture on Twitter of Kyle shirtless outside of one of the campus buildings.   Like, how do you guys think about those initiatives and and how that impacts Bitcoiners in general? I mean, getting this next generation into Bitcoin and interested.  

[00:50:04] Unknown:

Carr, you wanna touch on that first? Yeah. I I I think it's I think it's really simply just being there to answer questions.   Right now, TOFR is doing a really good job along with Dee to to get   more and more Bitcoin focused   education inside of UT.   Me and Telstra me and Telstra have discussed, you know, reaching out to ACC, which is our local community college because I think there's a there's a big need there, and it's probably an easier sell   personally.   I I do think I think I think in order to really get   more Bitcoiners moved over from this, like,   crypto space here in town is we have to hit the city.  

So that's gonna be, like, one of the things that I focus. I really started kinda moving in that direction already, but I think next year, really gonna start focusing in and on getting Bitcoin   involved in in the city at some in some segment. Because right now, I think a lot of these these,   crypto companies   kinda give them the wrong information. So I think it's just   I've I've realized that in order for us for PlubLab to become the   the the Austin Bitcoin company that I I foresee it becoming, we have to be more involved with our community here inside of the city, inside of the education space and stuff like that. And I think you guys are doing similar things in Nashville. So I think it's the way I think.  

[00:51:21] Unknown:

I I also think it's interesting because, like, we noticed kind of, I don't know, a while ago that they're just the one of the biggest challenges is that there just isn't enough builders. Like, we want to see so many more builders.   And for a while, we were kind of on this   this thought wave of, like, okay. How do we build   more builders? And   I actually think that building more builders is is probably a good thing, and I I would say that's   the educational side of things. I think the other thing that we're kind of   looking to try and do now is is   using   UT, using Austin Community College, using our local tech and entrepreneurial meetups   to actually not build   new builders,   but to facilitate   better builders   on a better ecosystem. Because there's actually   a ton   of builders   in our local community.  

I think, really, what we just need to do is,   get out there and kind of introduce them to,   Bitcoin in a way that that makes sense for them to, like, want to come over and build on it. And I think our workshops getting involved with, like, helping to launch classes at UT, and then just really getting out there and talking with people on, like, a 1 on 1 basis at the the tons and tons of meetups around the city,   are some of the ways we're kind of looking to approach that right now. So it's some level of, like, building new builders, but then also kind of facilitating,   just like a knowledge base   inside of a group of builders that that are already technical and really just trying to help them understand   why it makes sense to come over and build on Bitcoin.  



[00:53:04] Unknown:

It's very similar to the model that we did for Austin Bitcoin Club where you you just need to be a platform. Right? You don't you don't need to be   heavy handed with this with the ClubLab sales pitch.   And and I I think time and time again, that that   that kind of pathway,   has worked for us time and time again. So we're just gonna keep,   you know, using that that kind of tool to to do it, and I think   people will see the light, and they'll just they'll they'll know where to go. I I think I I believe that.  

[00:53:35] Unknown:

Love that framing.   I agree a 100%.   So where do you guys wanna go with this? We're about 55 minutes in.   I basically asked everything I wanted to touch on.   You guys have anything you wanna touch on?  

[00:53:52] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I think Kyle wanted to talk about this this, article that he sent over to Bitcoin Magazine.   You wanna talk about that, Kyle?  

[00:54:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's a it's a good direction. I think, one of the things that we're   I think it touches on what I kind of just said with this idea of facilitating,   kind of, like, better builders on a better network is really starting to put out   the   the   put out the signal or or at least just kind of start talking about getting it out there in the discussion realm is this idea of,   Bitcoin transitioning   into or having maybe already transitioned into,   what I'm calling the   application   era.   I think what we've seen up until now is a lot of, like, really heavy focus on the, like, move slow and don't break things, the, like, the privacy, the security, the robustness of its network and its infrastructure.   And I think where we're seeing things go now,   it requires, like, a a kind of conversation or several conversations to really figure out how things work as we move into this new era of, like, the things that aren't built,   on Bitcoin or in Bitcoin, but that are built on top of Bitcoin. This   now allows us to actually start moving fast and breaking things.  

And I I think one of our pleb devs in the space   says it like this. He says,   the introduction   of the application   era is how we move the network   or introduce the network to the next 1,000,000,000 users,   and and I think that's really true. So I think it's it's interesting to talk about what that looks like and and where we think it goes from here.  

[00:55:46] Unknown:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me.   There's definitely been I've I've noticed a   a sea change in   kind of   the community of builders in the space in a positive way over the last   maybe 3 years,   and it's very it's very noticeable,   with the Austin crew.   Particularly, like,   I I think a good example of it is   massive friend of the pod, Michael Atwood,   and how he approaches building out Oshi.   He's very much   on the ground all the time, connecting directly with users. I guess, Keyon would be a very good example with Stacker News.   We I felt like we really didn't have as much of that   beef you know, maybe 5 years ago, 6 years ago,   where, like, the founders were directly   the the the builders were directly interacting with the users,   to a larger degree. And particularly,   I guess it always happened, but particularly new users,   new, like, new Bitcoiners,   people that are just coming into the space.  

Yeah. I think it's it's an important,   like, it's an important   transition in the space because, like, a lot of what already  

[00:57:16] Unknown:

has been built, at least in my humble opinion, is, like, some of it really doesn't scale much further with out the growth of this layer.   I Voltage, I think is a really great example of a company that that scales significantly faster,   when   I mean, it's built for the growth of the application layer. Right? Like, the more people building applications on top voltage, like, the more that that infrastructure layer scales,   and I think that's probably not the only example. Like, a lot of these infrastructure   things that have been put in place,   the way to accrue more value to them is to get more people building,   and that when those people build, it's like the the growth of that user base,   grows as well. I think if you look back at web 2.0, it's like the same thing. Right? Like, the Internet was   a great,   discovery or invention as well. Right? But it it   didn't really start becoming that valuable until email, and,   like,   all of the things, the applications that got built on top of the protocol started entering   into, like, the realm of usability. Right? Like, it's everybody always talks about, like, when is it gonna be, like, usable?  

When when can, like, grandma use it? Like, all of these kind of questions about the next round of users, well, that comes from the application. It's the people who are building kind of unique use cases,   across that protocol. That's really what I think is going to help scale up, the next round of users to Bitcoin. It's the people who kind of get it through the monetary lens, through the kind of revolutionary   lens. I think a lot of the the purists, if not most of the purists, are kind of already here. Right? And now it's going to just get people involved through kind of very   similar,   use cases as the way the the the Internet got more and more users.  



[00:59:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I'd a 100% agree.  

[00:59:16] Unknown:

That.   I'll let you go in a second, John, but we got Tony in the comments. He posted one of my favorite memes, which is the just use voltage button   where it's like you can have voltage do   all the heavy Bitcoin lifting on the back end when you just have an app that interfaces directly with what they have. John, go.  

[00:59:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, actually, just I was gonna touch briefly on what Kyle said, but it also ties into what you just said as well about building applications on top of things like voltage that that is good. I mean,   like, I I can't wait to get, like, some really awesome integrations done with Volta. Js. Like, we're we're talking and and working on some stuff that's, like, you know, I think is gonna be, like, really cool in the future. But this was one of the, you know, the main reasons about why   I started   Zapride in the first place was because I think   I mean, I started it because it came out of a need that I had. I just needed an invoicing app because I was a contractor and I was earning Bitcoin and I needed to send, you know, professional invoices to companies.  

So it came out of that personal need. And then, obviously, like, I thought, well, we're gonna need more of these applications as as Bitcoin grows out. And I think Kyle is, like, right. And I I've heard him talk about this quite a lot about, you know, we're reaching that application layer stage where a lot of a lot of new businesses are gonna be built up, which abstract away a lot of the stuff that these amazing, like, Bitcoin and Lightning developers have been doing for the last few years   and removing, you know, a lot of the complexity. Like, they've built these really great tools like Voltage.   And then we can bring in, like, you know, designers, new UI, UX people like myself and others to to build startups on top of that again, which just bring it and expand it out to, like, that little bit more of a market. Right? And just make it a little bit more accessible and just bit by bit will just slowly creep out and start pulling in more of the traditional markets that,   you know, we all know eventually, like, that things are gonna, like, move over onto Bitcoin and lightning, particularly in the payments   area. But, obviously, like, it has a lot more applications as well.  

But, yeah, I mean, it's it's really it's really amazing   as a founder.   I mean, we talked about the benefits of of Pleb Lab,   and what that did for me and Zaprite, but also just having tools like like Voltage there as well.   You know, I'm not a I'm not a traditional developer. So I can't I can't, you know, build my own lightning implementation.  

[01:01:44] Unknown:

And that is a per   voltage is a perfect example with you because I I remember our original call, the reason liquid was   even being brought up was because,   Liquid is, by design, federated model. So   it is custodial   it's it's custodial,   but it's multisync custodial. So the risk of the custodian is is reduced and minimized.   But as a result of the trade offs Liquid has made, it's very easy for an app developer   to integrate Liquid where they're not holding custody of the user funds and the user has a relatively seamless experience.   Lightning was not the case. And I remember during that conversation we had, I I don't think Voltage existed yet or it wasn't that big   yet. But we kept going back to I was like, I know you wanna keep a self custody so that you don't do KYC,   and that's a key aspect of the value prop and reduces user friction in terms of convenience.  

But how do you do self custody lightning in an easy way for users?   And now all of a sudden you have Voltage and you're able to basically   send that user to Voltage, maybe have them plug in some kind of API key or something into Zap. Right?   And all of a sudden, they can accept lightning payments without you having to take custody of funds.  

[01:03:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. There's so many amazing things that we can do.   And yeah. I mean, you're right. The goal with Zapprite from the start has always been self custody and no k y c. As long as as it's, like, you know, possible   in this,   you know, market that we're entering into.   And if we can keep building those tools where   there's really   easy UI, UX applications like Zap, right, that that have these deeper integrations into things like Voltage. And then you can, you know, simply, like you said, have these one click onboarding processes where people can   spin up nodes where they still get control of the nodes. They have their access to their voltage dashboard if they need, but we've got some, like, mini UI stuff within Zap, right, that we can do.  

And we can have, like, really cool integrations where you send out an invoice, and we know, like, that you're expecting x amount of sats for this invoice. And we can say, like, oh, well, you need that inbound liquidity on on voltage. So how about, like, you know, we we give you some of our liquidity, and we use voltage's flow API, and we do all kind of, like, deeper integrations like that, which just abstract away a lot of that stuff,   and get it to that grandma stage as as Kyle talks about. It's like we just need to   we just need to build   a lot of the the front end stuff that, like I said, piggybacks on top of the absolutely stellar work that's been done over the last few years on on at the protocol level.  



[01:04:25] Unknown:

So since grandma keeps getting brought up, I just wanna say,   like, yes, our grandmas can currently use,   to a degree,   you know, signal and Imessage and   email.   It's important to realize that when email was first created,   those grandmas all have died.   So we're really when when someone says we're, like, building for the grandmas,   it's really like the people that are not quite grandmas yet or they're about to become grandmas.  

[01:04:56] Unknown:

It would be grandmas.  

[01:04:58] Unknown:

Yeah. Future  

[01:04:59] Unknown:

future grandmas. Future future grandma.  

[01:05:01] Unknown:

Another thing too, man, is, like, a lot of this stuff is, like, infrastructure at this point. Right? Like, you got voltage, you got IBEX, you got start like, you have a lot of infrastructure pieces already there.   Now you just need more people building on top of it and and plugging into it. And and that's where I think, like, a Plublop can help is because we're seeing individuals come from different business sectors,   and and they're looking to get into the Lightning or the Bitcoin space, but they don't know about the the the IBEXs, the the the the Voltages and the StartNines, and all those infrastructure companies are that are being   platforms   for anybody out there. And and I think that's the biggest thing I think that Publub can help with is that facilitation   to those things. And and so So Yeah. I think it's I think it's so I think we're early, but I do see I do think, like, man, we're we're we're there. We're on that tipping point.  



[01:05:53] Unknown:

So so I've got a question. I mean, I'm gonna phrase it the way Carr does, but do do you mind if we get a little bit spicy here?  

[01:06:00] Unknown:

We love spicy on dispatch. Okay. Great. Our sponsors can't cancel us because our sponsors are our listeners.  

[01:06:07] Unknown:

Fantastic.   So it's,   I I know this will probably get me somewhat attacked by a particular group of people, but it's a message that I had   probably almost a year ago when we kind of started this thing.   But I think to some extent, it's beyond Pleb Labs.   A Pleb Lab can help facilitate a lot of the the kind of   growth on an individual   level for the builders that we work with. But, again, coming back to this this kind of   reality that there aren't enough builders and that we're, like, looking to grow out the network of builders.   I think,   it's important that we we kind of, like, reframe some of the kind of language   that we've seen in the space for a while now with this idea of, like, the way that we attack   individuals   who are kind of in the phase of their journey that's still shit coinery.  

I think, obviously, we wanna call out shit coinery. We wanna call out shit coins. We wanna call out the scammers.   But I think for the, like,   probably the bulk work of people who find themselves building there, they're just people, and they're trying to find a way to build something valuable, and they're trying to find a way to, like, provide for themselves.   And I   think, kind of attacking   those types of people instead of, like, being open minded enough to allow for a discussion   and to present them with the thoughts on why Bitcoin is better and why they could and should be building on Bitcoin.   I think that's really important   for the Bitcoin community at large is to, like, really start kind of trying to transition the the way we discuss   Bitcoin versus   building on shitcoins   with that particular group of people, because it's a really large group of people, and they're technical,   and they're again, they wanna build things. So I think   yelling fuck you. You, like, you looked at the word Ethereum on a computer screen today is not really benefiting the growth of the application space,   and I I think we should probably try to do something about that.  



[01:08:16] Unknown:

So, like, I was actually I had a conversation about this other day   because we're thinking about, you know, how   I do a lot of consulting work for Bitcoin Magazine,   and I I basically   lead their open source initiatives over there. And we were thinking about where does Bitcoin Miami   and the like, last year, we had a 2,000 person open source stage dedicated to open source contributors,   and it was basically   3 days of in person sale dispatch. That was sick.   And we were we were thinking, like, what do we wanna do this year? And and the actual the topic came up,   do we want to basically encourage,   shit coin builders   to switch over to Bitcoin.  

And then the question came up, well, how would the perception   be among the Bitcoin community   of that as a plan?   And I do think there's a   element here that is   you kinda have to separate Bitcoin Twitter from real life. And a a perfect example is 100%. Someone who I consider a friend, Seth Seth for privacy.   He's focused on Bitcoin privacy, but he's also focused on Monero.   And because he's focused on Monero,   he's, you know, often   he has a he has a very   there there's a lot of animosity with him in the Bitcoin Twitter community.   And so I invited him down to Bitcoin Park,   came to Bitcoin Park. He spent 2 days with us, 2 days with our local community.  

He had Zeus connected to his own node, lightning node, and he made his first in person lightning payments in our coffee shop.   He kept trying to   pay us more money than he he owed us because he was trying to get the lightning payments to fail, and they weren't failing.   He left with, like, a cold card, an open dime,   some swag, super excited. He goes on to Twitter. He tweets out. He's like, I just had the most positive experience with the National Bitcoin community. Like, it's made me completely change how I think about Bitcoin and how I wanna contribute to Bitcoin.   And then he immediately got hit by, like,   5 dozen responses calling him a shit coiner.  

Yeah. So,   that that that's the reality of the situation.  

[01:10:39] Unknown:

And and so this is where I think and I've I've talked about this with Tony. I've talked about this with, like, a bunch of people is, like, it's I think it's important for   people with a platform, people with,   like, a voice like yourself, Matt, where it's, like, to some extent, like, I think what happened with toxic maximalism,   if you will, on Twitter in particular,   is, like, it stems   from the right place.   It stems from a bunch of intelligent people like yourself, like Tony, like Francis Pollo, like these guys who understood   deeply the ideals behind why privacy and security matter,   and and, like, the security model of Bitcoin. But I think what happened over time is that more and more and more people flooded into, like, the online space.  

The kind of message for, like,   an actual   articulated   version of why it's important and, like, what you should do to contribute   just kind of morphed into   less articulate,   and that's where we find ourselves today is this, like, I this ideal set   makes sense, but the way that we're presenting the ideas around it doesn't. It's just a bunch of people yelling at one another and kind of killing off anybody that presents a possible future as a builder in Bitcoin.   And I think it's a detriment to the space and the growth of the space, and that's why I really think the people with the platform and with the voice, it's, like, we need to, like, take that hit and, like, maybe get attacked on Bitcoin Twitter more often to, like, really put out the message that it's like, look, man, this this narrative, the way that we're presenting the narrative is no longer beneficial for the space.  

[01:12:23] Unknown:

I don't you know, I will push back a little bit on that because I I think it's just inherent to Twitter.   I think Twitter incentivizes   simplicity in the extremes,   And I I would not go as far as saying that Bitcoin Twitter is a detriment.   I think it's a massive net benefit   compared to what we had in the past, particularly because   there is reach among mainstream audiences rather than us just being in the Bitcoin Reddit or IRC or Bitcoin Talk.   I think   I think there's   my favorite word, nuance. There's there's nuance here because,   really   so, like, another example is Rockstar. And Rockstar, Deb, when he came in, like   and and came into the into the space in more of a public way,   he got into a big argument with, I think, specifically Francis and about BTC pay and Litecoin   support.  

And I defended Rockstar at the time, and but the thing is is, like I mean, Litecoin's a complete shitcoin, but the thing is is it requires   there are malicious   shitcorners   that do not adequately   or intentionally   ignore   disclosing trade offs,   and do so in an unethical way. And those people need to be called out   strongly,   publicly, and routinely.   There's also Bitcoiners that do that, and they should also be called out.   And then there's there there are people that mean well and are trying their best and, you know, try to stand with, like, a relatively   ethical code and and disclose trade offs here and there. And those people   should be, you know, treated with with a level of respect, and, hopefully, they come and build on Bitcoin.  

But for most people, that takes too much critical thinking,   and Twitter is, you know, incentivizes   simple extreme   comments.   So   if you do the odds if you do the odds, if you're an asshole,   if you're if you're an asshole   to the majority of public shitcoiners,   most of them, you know, probably,   I don't want to say deserve it, but probably had it coming.   And it's good. And they'll they'll probably gonna block you right away, which proves the point. Right? Because they don't want any kind of dissenting   opinion there.   And and and there's a lot of gaslighting   on on that side of things. But I I would not I would say Bitcoiners aren't immune to that either. We have a lot of Bitcoin so so called thought leaders,   that basically took the lessons of 2017 and took the wrong lessons from them and thought, you know, the Bitcoin community should be more like a shitcoin community.  



[01:15:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of nuance there. I think, ultimately, then it's like   it I think the idea of, like, showing respect to the people who will also show respect, it like, that   is maybe perhaps where I think we could try to do,   a little bit better, but ultimately, I think you're right. Like, the the the way that it's just sad because Twitter is one of the largest   platforms, if you will, for kind of voicing   and sharing   the the Bitcoin kind of message.   So having a lot of it get really,   kind of loud and noisy is is somewhat distracting, I think, but it's I maybe it's not a detriment. And then I think, ultimately, it just comes back to what you've already said with, like, how you did what you did in Nashville, which brings us right back to the focus on just, like, being,   intelligent, calm, and collected people in real life and, like, showing the value of the community,  

[01:16:05] Unknown:

in person in in your home. Yeah. I mean, it's been something that I've noticed   with the podcast, and I've kind of taken it over to my community initiatives,   which is, like, the way this thing scales   is not one person hitting,   10,000,000 people with education or   anything.   It's really   it's it's really individuals   connecting with 10 people, 20 people, a 100 people, and then those people going out and connecting with 10 people, 20 people, a 100 people.   And it's been,   it's it's such a positive and rewarding experience   seeing that in person.  

Basically, all these grassroots   communities popping up around the world,   and it's just this domino effect. Right? It's like, you show kindness and respect and   acknowledgment   to   to other people, and then they go and and they repeat that, and then they repeat that. Right?  

[01:17:06] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's interesting too. Like, I think I learned it from Marty,   early on, because I was really hard in the paint kinda Bitcoiner   for a long time.   But   I forget what we were talking about one time. Marty had said, like, you know, sometimes you just need to give a soft touch. Right? Where you just well, kinda like what you said, Matt. It's just like you talk about Bitcoin. You let them you inform them. You don't attack them. You attack the idea, and then you send them on their way. And then another Bitcoiner comes along the way and then gives another soft touch. And then it just kinda, you know, trampolines and and and becomes a thing, and they become a Bitcoiner.   I think I think that's the way. I think if we all just give soft touches   and educate and attack the idea, I think that's how we get them to become a Bitcoiner over time.  



[01:17:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we I mean, you don't you don't   I I'm I'm strongly of the belief   that we build the education and the tools   to empower individuals. And then when those individuals   finally realize that they have the need, because everyone does have the need for Bitcoin, they just don't realize yet,   They will come and seek them out.   And so   I   I have a love hate relationship with this concept of   of orange peeling specifically.   But because it does have its place when when you see that there's a a moment in time that maybe truly highlights the need for Bitcoin.   But I think most people kinda just come to it on their own,   and, those people are way more susceptible   to to be in it long term for the right reasons rather than for gambling or   quick riches. Like, the the the type of people that often are almost forcibly   orange pilled or aggressively orange pilled or the type of people that usually get wrecked in a bear cycle and disappear for 4 years, maybe come back later. So can I ask you a question, Matt? On, like, the  

[01:19:02] Unknown:

conversation   around that very idea,   like, what what do you think would be some, like, actionable ideas   for,   like, I think I   think I think you're right. I think it's gonna happen regardless and naturally, and people are going to find more and more that they, like, need Bitcoin, and and I think having   those tools and resources ready like a pleb lab for those who find they wanna build.   But beyond just creating the space and then, like, sitting around, what are, like, actionable ideas to help accelerate the growth of more builders in this space?  

[01:19:40] Unknown:

Well, I mean, with builders specifically, I think it's,   it's a slightly different   scenario   than, like, an average   Bitcoin user.   And and and that scenario is mostly   like, they're obviously already intending to build or or building in somewhere else. Right? And that's making it clear that there's an opportunity,   for them to work on something that maybe is significantly more meaningful than they're currently working on, but also,   that they could be very successful doing. Right? It's just it's it's a different demo than   like, let's let's be honest. Right? Like, if if we're in a hybrid Bitcoinization   scenario,   and we have 8,000,000,000 people using Bitcoin,   technicals aside,   like, what percent of those are actually gonna be builders?  

And that's probably gonna be significantly less than a half a percent.   So so it's a very niche demo that that has   you have to have a specific   kind of   support   situation for those people. Right?  

[01:20:54] Unknown:

Yeah. And, I mean, again, that's kind of it it's what we're trying to do at Puebloam,   and and perhaps   road mapped out for Bitcoin Park and the other places springing up around the world, like, looking to create a a space and access to resources for   those technical folks.   It's just interesting because it's kind of like a almost like a chicken and an egg thing, right, where you're, like, talking about what percentage   will be builders when we're in a hyper Bitcoinized world with 8,000,000,000 people on Bitcoin.   But at the same time, it's, like, we don't get to an 8 1,000,000,000 people hyper Bitcoinized world without more builders before we get there.  



[01:21:34] Unknown:

Yeah. A 100%.   We had Tony in the comments saying, I'm biased, but builders need stats. They already have talent, conviction, motivation, etcetera.   I agree with that.   Part of the reason why   I helped build, 1031 and Open Sats,   Two different sides of the same coin, really. It was just getting funding to builders.   I'm curious. I mean, you guys through you I guess, it was a partnership,   what were the takeaways on that? What was it called? BTC plus plus? What were the takeaways on that? What was it called? BTC plus plus?  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

Yeah. It was a Bitcoin plus plus. I I think the I think the takeaways we learned was that I think people are tired of these regular conferences.   It needs to be, like, kind of like where it has both ends of the spectrum.   Kinda what you guys did in in Miami where it has, like, the open source part, but it also has the the other panel part.   I I think there there's a need for   education focused   Bitcoin conferences, and I think we're gonna see that trend in 2023 for sure. I think there's gonna be a lot more.   I know,   Nifty and the team at Base 58 are throwing the one New Mexico   City here in December, so definitely go check that out. And then at some point next year, she's gonna throw the Bitcoin plus plus again. So yeah. It's Yeah. And, of course, we have we have tab comp that just happened. I think there's also  

[01:23:05] Unknown:

not just, like, on the builder side, but just in general I mean, as Bitcoin grows, there's still gonna be   a place for these large, you know, 25,000   person festival type events.   But I think there's increasingly,   desire   and   and and and very and they end up being very productive, these these smaller high signal events. And, obviously, you guys have been focused on that. We've been focused on that at Bitcoin Park.   Parker and team have been on that over at the comments.   But I think we see more and more high signal smaller   events,   where people can have, like,   unbridled discussion with with with other peers. Right? Like, actually off the record conversations. So many so many of our conversations nowadays are on the record and essentially public.  

And I know I say that   on air,   but it's great to have it's great to have a place where you can actually   talk without   necessarily the pressure of of of a a surveillance state and the pressure of, public eye.  

[01:24:14] Unknown:

Yeah. That actually,   like, just bringing it back to to PlaidLab. Like, that was one of the things that I really enjoyed   when I first got in there was just the discussions that we had among, you know, people that were in there from various different topics.   You know, sitting in the same room as,   you know,   Tony and and Paul from Voltage and Supertestnet   and, you know, everybody else in there with just, like, so many different skill sets and and experiences.   You know, being able to have those   kinda candid discussions,   especially for a newbie who was just kinda, like, figure his way out in this whole, like, Bitcoin,   like, space,   it was was huge. It was, like, it was fundamental to to my early growth anyway as a founder and as a as a Bitcoiner who was, you know, in the background for a long time,   and then trying to kinda, like, step in, but trying to ask questions and have conversations that, you know, could be had, like, off air in a in a face to face environment is is is critical.  



[01:25:15] Unknown:

I I think just to touch on that too, it's   just getting a little bit personal is, like,   it's been great to watch and see the growth of of companies   and, of, like, all of that. I mean, that's kind of the business we're selling.   But I think my favorite part about everything that we have here and everything that we've done here has just been to watch and   see the tremendous   personal growth,   of the people in this community. And I and I know for me personally, it's really   inspired a lot of my own personal growth. It's I've seen so much change in the community around me from from Carr and what he learned with you guys over at TFTC and RHR and   just all of it. Just it's it's been really tremendous to grow as, like, a family and to watch how we've all come up in in not only the space, but just in our own kind of growth personally, it's been great.  



[01:26:09] Unknown:

Yeah. It does really feel more like a family than an industry, at least in our little microcosm.  

[01:26:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I I was just having   a coffee with somebody, over the this past weekend or maybe this weekend before, and we're kinda talking about that. And and, man, that that's, like, for me, the biggest thing, Matt. And, you know, like, I really care about the people around me, and I really want them to succeed. And, like, for me, that's that's all that really matters. I know that's kind of like   a a weird concept to imagine. The bear market it's the bear market cliche, like, the real gains of the friends we made along the way. Yeah. And me and Paul have talked about it. We're gonna record a pod at some point to talk about it more, but,   like, it it really is like, the Bitcoin price and all that stuff is there and it's in the back of your head, but it's it's not the motivator for me anymore like it used to be, in the early days. It's definitely the people and the impact that I could have in a positive way in their lives. I think that's the thing that really gets me up in the morning. You know? I know it does that for you too, Matt.  



[01:27:08] Unknown:

So  

[01:27:09] Unknown:

Damn right. I also wanna get wealthy,   but that keeps me going.   The cool part about Bitcoin is that that's aligned.  

[01:27:20] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:27:22] Unknown:

And we go Also also to talk about that conference in in Europe at the Bitcoin Magazine tour. Somebody came in yesterday. I won't I won't talk to them, but they had nothing but great things to say about the European conference. Like, they were just, like, ecstatic  

[01:27:33] Unknown:

about it. So The cool part about that one was that it was mostly Europeans.   It was mostly faces I hadn't seen. I spoke to freaks and people that I follow on Twitter and stuff that I just never met before. A lot of local Dutch people. The Dutch community was extremely strong.  

[01:27:52] Unknown:

That was the coolest part to me. I just love Amsterdam as a city. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I wanted to go so bad, but it was like, I had to choose. Like, that was the biggest thing. Yeah. I mean, it's  

[01:28:03] Unknown:

the the dark the darkness surrounding it is that it was at the same time as Tab comp.   But it was with an Amsterdam partner, and they were gonna throw the event regardless,   and those dates were locked in. So,   but, yeah, I was really disappointed not to go to TabConf, and,   that obviously   personally bothered me. I reached out to Tidwell individually,   before the information was out there publicly.   Tried to support him as much as I could, but,   that's always be   a a a dark spot on that event to me. But, the highlight by far was that we had so many   so many locals that came out,   that have never been to any of the American events, and,   that was awesome. And, also, it was a smaller event. It was a smaller event than the Miami event, and it goes back to what we were saying earlier. There was a workshop stage that was very intimate,   that was focused on helping people build in the space. BTC Pay gave a great presentation. Ivex gave a great presentation there.  

So definitely wanna see more of that, and I think the team at Bitcoin Magazine is very much aligned in that regard.   So, I mean, I want to go off of what Carr said.   You know, a common meme in the space is that bear markets are for builders.   How do you guys feel about that meme?  

[01:29:22] Unknown:

I think it's true.   So it's it's interesting because, like,   just like talking with normies, like, the the occasional Uber ride or or wherever I may be. And when I talk about the fact that I own a Bitcoin company, it's it's very common to be like, oh, that must be rough right now.   And I've kind of had this pretty quick response most of the time where it's like, actually not. It's been pretty good for business, like,   because I think one of the things that at least with what we're doing that we've found is that, like,   it's actually a lot easier to find good talent,   in that in that bear market because there's so much less noise. And when money is not, like, sloshing around and frothy and everybody has access to it, you tend to find   exactly what we are looking for, and what we tend to look for is disciplined leadership and a dedicated team.  

And,   those two things are really easy to find   when it's a bear market because, like, there's no money, and they're still sitting there grinding it out day in and day out with a passion. So I think I think it's true. I think it seems to be, like, an accurate statement.  

[01:30:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, personally, I I definitely agree with that because I just know from my own experience that that's exactly what I'm doing with at Saffright.   You know, it's been the last few months of just been, you know, head down, grinding hard, like, trying to get a lot of work done.   And, you know, that's   there's probably a lot of companies that are going through tough times right now. I mean, we know that in the mining space for sure, but there's probably other big coin companies as well. I mean, I I guess I was lucky enough and that I managed to to raise a small pre seed round, like, just before the kinda   deep bear market set in. So, you know, it it gave me that runway to, like, to to start building,   but I I see it everywhere. I certainly see it a lot   from a lot of the other founders in PlubLab. They're doing the same thing.  

And one thing I wanted to touch on as well is that, you know, you   Matt, you mentioned, like, Michael Atwood from Oshi earlier.   You know, one of the things that,   you know, I talk a lot to Michael about, and I know he's super passionate about, is just that, like, the interfounder   collaboration as well.   I mean, I don't know if this is, like, a normal thing in in founder worlds in, like, you know, Fintech or or any other, like, you know, industry that that goes on. But we we just tend to talk a lot about how we can actually help each other's company. How we can actually, like, you know, collaborate and build together and build tools that one person can use. And, oh, you need this? Well, maybe if I build it into my platform, we can link together, and then we can, like, give your users this added benefit and this experience.   And there's a lot of collaboration between us to try and figure out how we can   streamline and optimize our work,   you know, particularly so that we're not, like, repeating things and and doing the same things over and over. If one founder can do one thing to help another founder, like, we always do it, and we have a lot of those conversations.  

So that's one thing that that I noticed,   within it as well, which I I just thought was was really curious to me being a first time founder, but I think it's,   it's huge, and and I love that aspect of it.  

[01:32:37] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I got to notice that in person.   We had,   our venture fund 1031, we hosted all of our founding teams,   for a private retreat where they can collaborate. And,   in the van,   John and Michael were sitting behind me, and they wouldn't shut up about collaborating on different things,   which was great to see. You just want to,   you you wanna see as as much collaboration as possible because a rising tide lifts all lifts all boats here in the in the Bitcoin space.   I would just add on the the bear market.   Bear markets are for builders thing.  

You know, if you look back, most of the successful companies   have, you know, either grown in a bear market   or were straight up launched in a bear market. But I would say   that it's a little bit of   selection bias   because bear markets   destroy   the majority of builders.   And Bitcoin as it is is a survival of the fittest kind of game, and it really   that the bear markets are when people realize why it's survival of the fittest.   So the builders that survive a bear market and keep moving forward and keep putting one foot in front of the other and and don't stop,   usually see massive success. We just don't see the ones that that the many that don't do that.  



[01:34:06] Unknown:

Discipline leadership,   dedicated teams.   And, and also,   Matt,   the the   the retreat you guys threw sounded pretty epic. So Grant, Jonathan,   the rest of you guys, look looking forward to participating in the next one.  

[01:34:26] Unknown:

You've never been the most subtle person, Kyle. I  

[01:34:29] Unknown:

I try.  

[01:34:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's   that kind of,   just really quickly,   it was something that I think it kinda just brings up a couple of points. I mean, Matt, you mentioned earlier about,   you know, when we're talking about conferences and,   you know, there is a place for the bigger public events, but sometimes the smaller high signal events are, you know, are where, you know, a lot of stuff gets, discussed and and progress gets made.   That event, 1031 event you're talking about was definitely one of those.   But I just wanted to mention quickly as well is that, you know, seeing as we're talking about the the builder builder mentality in in in the bear market,   I think a lot of that wouldn't happen without folks like yourself on 1031 as well, who have that, you know, Bitcoin only ethos and and have that low time preference support for bitcoin vendors. So I definitely just wanted to mention that and say I, on a personal level,   you know, absolutely,   like, stoked that there are funds like that available for for founders like myself who who have that same ethos and and will, under   no circumstance talk to any shitcoin VC or Fiat VC.  

And that makes it really hard when you're trying to raise money.   Like, there's no way in hell I'm gonna have Zap rights logo on a on a VC portfolio page besides some, like, defi shitcoin program.   So, you know, having having you guys there and and there's there's plenty of others. I think I think Vivek or or somebody else put out a thread, actually, the other day about Bitcoin only,   like, VCs.   And there was a good, like, 15, 20, or or more that kept getting added in the thread. And, like, it it's amazing to see. It's great. And it like, you know, talking about their market build is like that wouldn't happen without,   you know, 1031 and other Bitcoin only funds. So it's certainly Well  

[01:36:19] Unknown:

was. I just I appreciate that, and I appreciate you. And it's been great to see   a lot of growth in that space. And it's also why I launched OpenSats,   for tax deductible no   tax deductible no fee grants to open source contributors, no strings attached. Also 1031, we also do open source grants with no strings attached.   So just more funding in the space is great.   I I do think it's,   also gonna be,   could be a long bear market for a lot of a lot of those funds as well.   But I I hope to see many of them succeed alongside us. What were you saying, Kyle?  

[01:37:03] Unknown:

No. I was just saying I I I jest, but to touch on the same thing that John was already touching on, it's it's great to see the growth of it. But,   like, the the guys like Grant and Jonathan, I've had several conversations back and forth with them. And I I told Grant myself personally many a times, I think,   is,   like, outlines   in his investment thesis that have that have been put out in the public many times over, they they resonate so closely with the way that we kind of view things here at PubLab, and I think,   it's it's just really cool to see that the the the kind of   focus on and the understanding of where this thing seems to be trending. It's, like, so,   it seems to be very unifying in, like, a in, like, a direction, and I think that's that's great because,   the more focused we can get in that direction unified together, I think the more powerful we'll be.  



[01:38:02] Unknown:

100%.   So, boys, we're at,   the hour 40 minute mark.   I wanna reiterate that, this was a conversation a long time in the making, and I expect that it's   just the start of many conversations.   So we don't have to feel like we've gotten everything in here. But I I think it's been a pretty fantastic conversation. I hope the freaks have enjoyed it. Do you have anything else you guys wanna touch on before we wrap it?  

[01:38:30] Unknown:

Just the kitchen that Elon brought?  

[01:38:35] Unknown:

One thing that,   one thing that I always like to to finish up conversations on,   because it's just been so important to me, and I mentioned it at at UTU recently as well,   is just is just really if you're any kind of a Bitcoin   founder or or pleb that just wants to kinda get involved in any way,   Like, the like, Bitcoin Twitter's great. All these online communities are great, but the only real way to to, like, move forward and make meaningful progress is, like, just getting in amongst it in the Bitcoin community face to face, going to meetups, going to conferences, going to events, hackathons, workshops,   and just, like, you know, walking into places like Pleb Lab and saying, hey. I'm a Bitcoiner. Can I just park here for a day and work and have some conversations? And you never know what might come out of it.  

So massive fan of the community building aspect of of what PlubLab is doing and just encourage a lot more people to to really take advantage of that. If it's not available somewhere close to you, then start it up. Make it available. It's it's easy to do. There's a road map for it,   and it it it provides   immense benefits,   to to everybody.   So, definitely a fan of the in person community meetings.  

[01:39:51] Unknown:

100% to that. Thank you, John. Kyle, final thoughts.  

[01:39:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's very similar to what John just said, but maybe from the other side, and and it's something that, our attorney said at TabConf. I think, my final thoughts would be if you're out there, if you're a builder, if you're entrepreneurially   inclined, you're thinking about trying to start a start up, it there's never been a better time to go out and do that. Whether it be Pleb Lab or the growing number of people focused on the acceleration of Bitcoin startups.   There's   so many resources out there, and there are so many people who want to help you along your journey. So if if you're thinking about it, I would say my final thought is just go do it.  

[01:40:37] Unknown:

Love it. Thanks, Kyle. Final thoughts, Carr.  

[01:40:40] Unknown:

Yeah. I would I would just say,   if you're if you're a Bitcoiner that has any skill set whatsoever and you're looking to get plugged in,   come to PlugLab, come to Bitcoin Park, come to these places, and,   you know, you'll get connected, and you can use that as a as a springboard, as a platform to really get your name out there. I see BTC retriever in the comments. He says, much love to the pubs at ClubLab. He's somebody that we've helped, you know, just through the the thing that we built here. And then, also, I got a fun fact for you, Matt. You ready for this? I love fun facts.   It's, Noster November.  



[01:41:13] Unknown:

Noster November. But I you're not practicing it. Yes. I am. I'm,  

[01:41:18] Unknown:

off Twitter.   I'm on Thomas and Enigma.  

[01:41:21] Unknown:

Let's go. Thought I saw you I thought so thought I saw you tweet it.  

[01:41:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I tweeted it, I think the day before on 31st. So, anyways, we're we're we're wanna explain what Monster November is. Yeah. Nostra November is a thing that was created by jb55.   He made the domicem. A lot of us here inside ClubLab were super excited about Nostra.   We got some guys trying to kill it and attack it.   There's other guys that are trying to build on it. It's a it's a lot of fun, and it's gonna be really interesting to see if we can really make Nostra take off here,   and help it grow much faster if we all stay on Nostra for the whole whole November. So yeah. Well, we love Noster here at dispatch.  

[01:42:03] Unknown:

To the freaks who may have just recently joined us, there's a great conversation, episode 63,   with both Fiat Jaf and JB 55, 2 of the main guys behind Noster.   So definitely go check that out.   I want to thank   Car, Kyle, and John, our wonderful guests, for joining us again.   I want to thank   all the freaks who continue to support the show, whether that's joining in the live chat,   joining in the constant matrix chat, supporting the show through streaming sets, whether that's on fountain,   Breeze, or one of the other podcasting 2.0 apps,   or supporting through a BTC pay server. And once again, supporting by sharing   sharing the show, sharing dispatch with your friends and family, subscribing on your favorite platform.  

I really do appreciate it. You guys keep me going.   I have great shows lined up, really great conversations lined up for dispatch in the coming weeks,   including one with Barack over the most recent LND bug.   So it should be a fun time, and,   don't let anyone tell you that, dispatch is dying or value for value doesn't work. We're gonna prove them wrong. So So I love you all. Stay humble, Stack Sats. Peace. Thanks for having us, dude.   Thank you.  

[01:43:25] Unknown:

Thanks.