support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/donate
EPISODE: 77
BLOCK: 755816
PRICE: 5230 sats per dollar
TOPICS: using silent link, bitcoin only merchants, sourcing numbers, intentionally limiting the amount of info they have on their users, is it a honeypot?, chinese "great firewall" circumvention, use a VPN, understand the tradeoffs
Silent Link on Twitter
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stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
(00:04:23) Introduction to silent.link and its offering
(00:38:03) Discussion on the importance of using VPNs
(00:46:08) Appreciation for Specter Wallet and its DIY hardware wallet
[00:00:34]
ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel Dispatch. The audience funded show focused on actionable discussion only. Citadel dispatch has no ads or sponsors. It is funded by you guys. It's funded by our audience. I appreciate all you who continue to support the show. I could not do it without you. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2.0 apps like Breeze, Fountain, Podverse dot f m. You simply load the app up with sats, search to dispatch, press the subscribe button, pick how many sats you think the show is worth per minute, and then as you listen, it will automatically send sats to my node.
Podcasting 2.0 also has a boostogram feature. A boostogram is a flat payment that you send, one lump sum payment, and it can include a message. You can think of it kind of like a global comment section. And the top boost to grounds from the previous episode are read, at the beginning of every episode. You can also support the show by going to sil dispatch.com. I have a BTC pay server there. You can support through on chain Bitcoin or lightning Bitcoin through that BTC pay server. I also have a Pay NIM, which uses BIP 47 supported by Samari Wallet and Sparrow Wallet. My Pay NIM is Odell. Very easy to remember, so you can send support that way. I do thank all the freaks who continue to support the show. Like I said, I could not do it without you.
And now I understand that it is a bear market. If you cannot support the show via stats, it's completely respectable. You can also support the show by subscribing, leaving a review on your favorite platform, whether that's Twitch, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. So dispatch is available in all podcast apps. Consider sharing it with your friends and family. That really does go a long way, and I appreciate all of you who do that. As always, on SIL dispatch, we will have our live chat going. You can participate in a live chat on YouTube, Twitch, or on our matrix chat. All those links are at sill dispatch.com.
That is if you click that citadel.chat link, obviously, the Twitch link is if you click Twitch, and YouTube is if you click YouTube. So, before we get started, I'm just gonna read some of the top boostograms, from the previous few shows. We had, user, lots of numbers attached to the user, gave sent 60,000 sats. He said, you had me dying when you had to clarify that douchebag was a username, LOL. Then we had Riku Maru saying with 12,000 sats saying, thanks for not shying away from the hard topics. Matt, I'm a fan of Samura, and I think the conclusion of the show should be, please add a warning screen on mobile app a la Spiro in order to help onboarding education. We have Blockchain Boog with 5,000 sets saying great combo. I would give it to Zelco.
And then I'm also gonna go and read some from our most recent bitcoin dot review episode. We have Peter with a 100,000 sat saying, here's $20 to buy a burrito in ramala Ramallah. Cheers. And then we have CA Danner, ride or die freak with 75100 sat saying, love the good nature debate and good humor from from your satoshi white paper artist freak, CA Danner. We have CA Danner's art up at Bitcoin Park. I really do appreciate you, CA. And then we have Nomad Joe, last but not least, with 2,222 SAT saying, thanks for the research info. Anyway, you can read all the boostograms and your favorite podcasting 2 point o app. They're all public.
I will continue to read them in the future. I do appreciate all the support once again. So with all that said, we have a very interesting guest and topic lined up for today. You may have heard me talk about their project in the past. That project is silent.link. It is a, it is a website where you can pay with Bitcoin without any KYC info and get a mobile phone eSIM. If you remember those SIM cards that we use to enable a mobile phone, Now they have digital versions that you can download right to your phone. You can buy one of these at silent.link. And we have, I believe, the founder of silent.link or one of the lead maintainers on the show today. How's it going, silent link?
[00:05:07] Silent Link:
Good. Happy Bitcoin Monday, Fricks. Happy to be here with you today. That's okay. With some hard questions.
[00:05:16] ODELL:
It's a pleasure to finally have you, my dude. I know you, you listen to dispatch regularly, and I've been trying to get you on the show for a while now.
[00:05:25] Silent Link:
Of course.
[00:05:27] ODELL:
So, I mean, let's let's just, I I we're both planning on keeping this conversation tight, right to the point. As always, Freaks, if you have any questions or comments, just throw them in the live chat, and we will get to them. Let's start with, just a basic rundown of of the offering of SilentLink. What does SilentLink offer people?
[00:05:49] Silent Link:
We offer buying anonymous, it seems it seems that they're completely decoupled from your official identity. We do not require anything. We do not require even an email address. You just pay Bitcoin and, get an eSIM that can, have or a number or be just data only as in?
[00:06:16] ODELL:
Right. So you can you can there's 2 offerings. There's one where it's it's just Internet data only. You don't have a phone number attached to it, and then there's one that's more expensive that you have a phone number attached to it. I guess so, obviously, we've talked on dispatch a lot about mobile phone privacy, and a lot of that starts, which which carrier you choose and and and how you get that SIM card. Throughout throughout the developed world. It's becoming harder and harder to get a SIM card that's not immediately attached to your identity. If you sign up for something like one of the big majors in in in America, like an AT and T or Verizon, they, like, basically ask for everything short of the blood of your firstborn child. They're asking for your name, your your email, your mailing address, maybe a driver's license number, credit card information. All this stuff is obviously completely tied to your identity.
A lot of us have gone out of our way to go and get SIM cards with cash and buy them with cash. But even a lot of those prepaid SIM cards now, once you get them, you have to go and activate on their website, and they require all this additional information. Maybe they block VPN usage, while you're doing the sign up process. It's it's a really difficult process to to get a SIM card that that isn't, directly tied to your legal identity. Now how are you able to offer us the ability to buy these ESIMs without giving you any personal information when all of these other companies aren't able to do that?
[00:07:54] Silent Link:
That's because we're a little bit deeper than the front end of the major operators, that actually have this task of identifying their customers, mostly because they relate to advertising, I guess. But for surveillance, of course, too. When you deal with, say, bulk offerings, when you buy numbers, when you buy channels, when you buy SIM profiles, there is actually no requirement to provide KYC information, with the exception of phone numbers. Phone numbers were difficult for us to source without KYC requirements, but we managed to get United States phone numbers and, United Kingdom phone numbers. For some limited time, we were offering, Dutch phone numbers.
But at the moment, we are out of, the stock, and we are still looking for a way to source non non KYC numbers to offer you.
[00:09:07] ODELL:
So so from from your perspective, when when you're operating this business, it's easier for you to get that data only SIM than it is for you to actually get provision phone numbers.
[00:09:21] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course. Interesting. Get them also, to sell them because they work much better.
[00:09:31] ODELL:
Well, obviously, the the Internet the Internet only data plans are are useful for people. You're able to, you know, then use them with different VoIP applications and stuff like that. But a lot of a lot of the advantage is lost when you don't have the phone number. So many different services require phone numbers that are basically used as these identifiers. So the fact that we can get phone numbers through silent link is is probably, substantially, you know, bigger of a deal for users than than the data only.
[00:10:08] Silent Link:
Yes. But, as irresponsible vendor, they always, warn our customers that when they get these, these numbers, they're dealing with outdated technology, and they always in the risk of identifying themselves, like, for example, using these capabilities of voice and text, by actually talking and receiving messages from other people, and all this is logged and voice is voice fingerprinted. And, actually, it doesn't make much sense to buy one of our identity plans and then start talking on the phone like the good old days.
[00:10:57] ODELL:
Right. So this is why on your website, you suggest people, if they they get a phone number, they attach it to something like signal or attach it to something like WhatsApp, and then use the VoIP capabilities of that app rather than actually use the native call functionality. But, also, your the your your plans don't include outbound calls. Users cannot make outbound calls. What what's the reasoning for that?
[00:11:27] Silent Link:
There are several very strong reasons for that. First and foremost is that once we offer outbound call and text capability, we, have to deal with enormous volumes of abuse and spam. It's not really feasible for us. 2nd, it doesn't make much sense in terms of providing an anonymous service because as I have already mentioned, the subscribers get immediately voice fingerprinted on their calls. So it simply doesn't work that way. These are main reasons. And another, more technical reason is it's a little bit easier to source phone numbers, with inbound voice capability without outbound outbound voice capability, with no KYC information.
[00:12:29] ODELL:
Right. So a lot of it is just how, you know, what you have available to you.
[00:12:36] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. And what we can, further, like, sustain as a service. Because if we become a place, that where most of the spam is originated, we Finally, it just will be shut down. That's all. Right. That makes sense.
[00:12:56] ODELL:
So, I mean, we have communer in the matrix chat, wants everyone to know that the matrix chat is the best chat. I I just want all the freaks. If if you're a new freak, just to be aware that that matrix chat goes 247, 365. So even when we're not, broadcasting live on dispatch, we have a lot of great discussion over there, and you should consider joining even if you're participating through YouTube or Twitch. So what what's the reasoning so outbound calls are not allowed, outbound texts are not allowed, but inbound calls and texts are allowed. Is that just, to give users options? Like, why not disable both of those 2 if if part of it is privacy reasons?
[00:13:44] Silent Link:
Because inbound calls and the inbound text is what you need to register accounts. Oh, of course.
[00:13:51] ODELL:
Right. Like, I'm signing up on signal, it's gonna send me a confirmation text. Or I'm signing up on Twitter, it's gonna send me a confirmation text with the code, and I'm gonna need that.
[00:13:59] Silent Link:
That's why it's called identity. Right. And then if you if you ever need to call public switch telephone network, I e, regular phone numbers, we, suggest that you sign up for some VoIP service of your own choice. We will not ever offer this service because we do not, mix the risks in one place. Right. You sign sign up. Preferably, it should be anonymous and, paid with Bitcoin and use that to call, public telephone network.
[00:14:41] ODELL:
Right. That makes sense to me. So you you you answered this question on Twitter that someone had a Horizon Compass had this question. Does silent link use roaming all the time? And what is the advantage of using a foreign identity account, AKA using a UK number in the US versus a US number in the US. Do you wanna go into that a little bit? Let's let's start with why why does silent link use roaming all the time?
[00:15:16] Silent Link:
It's actually an old trick. VIP persons were, using roaming SIM cards for as long as SIM cards exist. It's actually much more difficult to surveil a SIM card that's not, issued by a local operator that came from some other country. It's very trivial to for local law enforcement or someone that can have some connections in the local operator to do whatever they want with their SIM card. If it's issued by some foreign telecom, it's much, much harder.
[00:16:12] ODELL:
So so if I use if I'm using the US identity on SilentLink and I'm getting a US number, that's a US number provided by a non US based telco? Or is that
[00:16:30] Silent Link:
actually, yes. Actually, yes. We source numbers, separately from where we source profiles and where we get the roaming service. These are all different entities, different operators, and, we make sure that this is all interoperable.
[00:16:51] ODELL:
So if I'm using a US identity, we got a US phone number through silent link, and I'm using it in the States. I'm, like, base I'm basically roaming on T Mobile or something like that, but T Mobile hasn't provided me the the the SIM. The SIM is a different telco. And as a result as a result, T Mobile has less, ability to to basically, pull files on me. Did I get that correct?
[00:17:24] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. First, they do not know your identity. Right. 2nd, they do not ever know your phone number. Because, when a foreign SIM is, roaming, in the carrier network, the carrier does not know its phone number. It's, the operate, internal ID. It's called IMSI.
[00:17:53] ODELL:
Right. And that's different that's different than the IMEI.
[00:17:59] Silent Link:
Yeah. IMEI is the hardware, identifier.
[00:18:03] ODELL:
Got it. And IMSI is the SIM identifier? Or is Yes. Exactly. So BTC PINs asked if he uses an eSIM on his phone that also has a SIM in it, like a physical SIM that's attached to his identity, the 2 can be linked. Correct?
[00:18:25] Silent Link:
Theoretically, yes. But, in practice, they will have different, IMEIs because the SIM part of the phone has one IMEI and the EUICC. This is the eSIM part of the phone has a different IMEI for the phones that I know. So it's not actually horrible.
[00:18:50] ODELL:
It's better to use a fresh phone, but it's not horrible.
[00:18:54] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course, the manufacturer knows knows the link between those identifiers. But for for the carrier, it's not trivial.
[00:19:06] ODELL:
Got it. Can can the carrier that I'm roaming on tell that I that I bought my SIM on silent link?
[00:19:18] Silent Link:
Yes. It's possible because, all most, most of our it seems come from 1, one roaming partner. So they most of them appear as if you're a visitor from Poland or Israel. Got it. But we will be offering more, it seems, from, different vendors as well.
[00:19:44] ODELL:
Love that. And BGC Pens made an interesting point about the previous sim physical sim versus e sim. Google would have a database of both of those identifiers. So, presumably, the man if it's a pixel. So, presumably, the manufacturer could link the 2. Right? If it's like an iPhone or a Pixel or something.
[00:20:07] Silent Link:
Sure. Manufacturer can do that. Buy a new phone.
[00:20:10] ODELL:
Right. It's always better to buy a new phone, fresh phone. Sure. Okay. That makes sense to me. So, I mean, one of the one of the main questions that I've that I've always had is, obviously, if I if I'm using silent.link, when when we talk about phone privacy, there's there's 2 main trust factors that in my head. And one is if you're using plain text, just regular SMS messages. Obviously, those are, like, postcards. They're not encrypted. The carrier can read them. And the other is, you know, phone regular phone calls. But let's say you're you're not doing either of those, so they're going through an app or whatever that's encrypted, like signal or matrix or something like that. The secondary trust factor is that there is an ability to triangulate your location using near cell towers. So they take 3 cell towers, and they're able to track your location based on those 3 cell towers.
Is SilentLink are you able to if you were coerced, if you were forced to or or if you wanted to do this, are are we putting trust in you not to triangulate our location? Is that possible for you?
[00:21:36] Silent Link:
Actually, we have no information at all. We are kind of, retailers. So so the only information that they have is the date and time of, purchase. That's all. So if one of our users is targeted, then what actually happens is this. The authorities might follow the number. They will come to the pool number pool operator. From there, they will go to a roaming provider. From there, they will eventually get to a local carrier, and only the local carrier has the location information.
[00:22:34] ODELL:
Got it. So they have to go through all those hoops before they could actually figure out what towers it attached to? They couldn't just go if I was roaming on T Mobile, they couldn't just go to T Mobile and be, like, what where the location is?
[00:22:48] Silent Link:
If they know that you were located in some spot, then, of course, they do not need to, go all the way. They just can continue allocating you based on your previous location information.
[00:23:02] ODELL:
Right. They take that device, and then they just track that device.
[00:23:05] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. They already know your IMEI, and they can forward.
[00:23:11] ODELL:
Got it. What would you and I think this is kinda connected to the last question. I mean, I so it's it's really hard for in in in America, it's gotten increasingly difficult to get to get a phone number without attaching it to your identity. It I I you know, you you seem to allude that a lot of it is is based on on corporate the the the need for corporations or corporations desiring to sell our marketing data. But it seems like there's also a major regulatory push to, to force KYC information when you buy a phone number. So as a result, when someone sees a service like this, that seems almost too good to be true, like, I can just literally just go to the website, pay with Bitcoin, press the download button, and then my compatible phone that's compatible with eSIMs literally just all of a sudden has cell reception and a phone number, and I can top it up with Bitcoin without providing an email or or anything.
Their the first thought is is this must be, you know, an intentional honey pot. This must be a spook. This must be someone who's trying to deanonymize people that want privacy or Bitcoiners specifically. What do you say to people that have that concern?
[00:24:47] Silent Link:
Well, if someone doesn't ask you for your identity, it doesn't make you a spook. And that's a very We are just a way we're just a way not to provide this information. That's it.
[00:25:04] ODELL:
So why do you why do you think there aren't other why are you the only ones? Like, why why are you the only ones? Like, are there other services that I can use out there that I can just pay with Bitcoin and just not give up any information and get a NESIM? Why do you think that we know of.
[00:25:22] Silent Link:
Now that we know of. I guess that's not because it's inherently impossible to provide the service, as I have said already. It's because people that are in telecom do not trust Bitcoin as a means of payment yet.
[00:25:44] ODELL:
So there there are service so most of these types of services, they just choose credit cards because that's what people are comfortable with. That's what you think.
[00:25:53] Silent Link:
People are comfy comfortable with doing what they are used to be doing for some time.
[00:25:58] ODELL:
Right. I mean, so let's jump into the product offering a little but first of all, I just wanna thank you again for joining us. This is a product that I've used, I find very useful. Like I said, I've talked about on dispatch many times. It is, I mean, it it is the ideal type of product that you'd like to see come out of of Bitcoin as a payments technology. Like, the ability that I I can essentially shop from you as a provider from around the world without giving you my private information and get a service that I that I really need, that I can't find somewhere else. And it's also very useful for travel. Like, I I know a lot of people that use it specifically when they come to America, because it's hard to get a data plan in America, as an international.
So so first, the user is paying the user pays $60, a year reoccurring fee for the identity plan. We'll focus on the identity plan. They get the US number, and they have a $5 initial balance, And then so they're getting they get a page. They basically get, like, an account page that they have to save, and that account page is where they they basically have to top it up to pay for their data usage and, their text usage if they're if they're using text messages, on a per usage basis. How does how do you come up with the and the pricing is all listed at silent.lang/rates. How how are these prices, determined?
[00:27:48] Silent Link:
They are mostly determined by the roaming operator. They are offering the same prices.
[00:27:57] ODELL:
And, presumably, you add a you're adding a silent link fee on top so you can make money. Right?
[00:28:05] Silent Link:
You have a certain discount.
[00:28:07] ODELL:
Right. So so, actually, the roaming provider like, so you're getting the SIM from, like you said, like, a Polish provider or an Israeli provider, and then they have a contract with, like, T Mobile in the United States to pay a certain rate. And then they pass that on to you, and then you charge the customer.
[00:28:27] Silent Link:
Yes. Awesome.
[00:28:32] ODELL:
Phryx, if you have any additional questions while we have silent.link, here, please, throw them in the chat. This has been an extremely productive conversation so far. I mean, we're only a half an hour in, and I just feel like we've nailed pretty much everything. What is there something specifically that you'd like to talk about?
[00:28:59] Silent Link:
Merchant adoption maybe. I would like to invite all merchants to join us with providing the services to the Bitcoin community because it's a great pleasure.
[00:29:15] ODELL:
Just merchants in general of all different types? Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you think It's a very eye opening experience. Do you think, do you think we're trending in the right direction? Are are you are are you disappointed with how few Bitcoin merchants are, or is it the opposite that you're you're impressed with? The opposite. We we are impressed. It's a great pleasure as I've seen. I feel like it's been growing relatively quickly, at least recently, the last, like, 2 years or so. And and, specifically, I mean, what's really rare is is seeing Bitcoin only merchants like yourself where you don't even, you don't even accept credit cards. You there's no fiat. It's just Bitcoin only.
[00:29:59] Silent Link:
Yeah. We have some pressure from the American Unity, who we respect. That Uh-huh. As a native means of payment, but we have no such plans at the moment because, BTC paid server is, in management of the Lightning node. There's enough headache for us at the moment.
[00:30:24] ODELL:
So right now, I mean, you have a link on your website. You essentially, like, tell people to use one of the swap services if they wanna pay with Monero. Right?
[00:30:32] Silent Link:
Yes. That's that should work for everybody, and, we do not have to deal with another another asset. Unfortunately, some people are always making us with, we do not want to trust some third party. We try to explain that it doesn't make any sense, actually. You do not need to trust fixed float to do the payment.
[00:30:59] ODELL:
Well, you there's, like, custodial there's custodial risk temporary custodial risk when you they send it if fixed float doesn't send the payment on. But it's like they're trusting them with, like, $60,
[00:31:08] Silent Link:
whatever. And for several seconds.
[00:31:11] ODELL:
Yeah. Exactly. So do do you think, that's interesting. I mean, for a lot for a long time, like, I mean, I I personally think BTC pay server is one of the most important projects in our space, just because it makes it so easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin natively and sovereignly, and it seems like you would agree with that.
[00:31:35] Silent Link:
Of course. Of course. And, actually, URLs, is what made us, make the service.
[00:31:43] ODELL:
Who who did?
[00:31:47] Silent Link:
You're saying that it's one of the most important, projects in the Bitcoin space. Oh, that means a lot. Glad to hear that. Have to power, yeah, yeah, our attention to this to BTCPay server, and, then after we saw it, of course, we want to use
[00:32:02] ODELL:
it. Oh, yeah.
[00:32:04] Silent Link:
Owning a payment system.
[00:32:06] ODELL:
It's pretty powerful.
[00:32:09] Silent Link:
Yeah.
[00:32:11] ODELL:
So I so it looks like we have more questions from the freaks now. Appreciate all you freaks who give us questions. Couldn't do without you. We have Carlos in the comments saying, have you ever had any issues with the providers that connect some mobile network operators, I e, Syniverse?
[00:32:30] Silent Link:
No.
[00:32:32] ODELL:
Do you know what Syniverse is? No. Neither do I. No. Carlos, if you wanna give us more context, in the comments, let us know. I don't know what Cineverse is. We also have dread, ride or die freak Dred in the matrix chat asking, any thoughts around streaming lightning as a payment for data SMS?
[00:32:57] Silent Link:
I would like to see lightning used for everything. It's a great technology.
[00:33:05] ODELL:
I mean, that seems, like, way more complicated to implement than just topping up on the website.
[00:33:13] Silent Link:
Yes.
[00:33:14] ODELL:
But it's cool concept. Is there any he's also asking, is there any kind of VPN proxy bridge functionality bent into the eSIM for places like China?
[00:33:26] Silent Link:
Great question. Actually, our eSIMs are very useful in China. And in in mind that our Emirates because they completely circumvent the state firewalls.
[00:33:38] ODELL:
Well, because they're roaming? Just
[00:33:41] Silent Link:
yes. Yes. Because the data goes to Poland or Israel, and it goes to to the Internet from there. So Oh, that's interesting. Great China firewall. Unfortunately, Chinese Communist Party goes to great lengths to, forbid any it's incompatible forms from China. So you cannot buy an ISIN compatible form in China. You can only bring it from abroad.
[00:34:15] ODELL:
But oh, I see. So the, the phones aren't even sold there. You have to get the the physical phone. You have to get abroad.
[00:34:24] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. The, iPhones and the Pixels, I don't know if they have have pixels, but they have iPhones definitely, and the iPhones, that are sold on channel do not have a sim capability at all. Oh, so, like, the new iPhone, the iPhone 14 that they made a whole big deal about being eSIM only, the one that's sold in China is gonna have no eSIM compatibility whatsoever. I I wonder what they're going to do with all the previous models, that was sold sold in China mainland, had no sync mobility whatsoever.
[00:34:56] ODELL:
That's interesting. I mean, my understanding, just for a little bit of context, with the iPhone 14 is Europe is forcing them to have a SIM card slot. So the European version of the iPhone 14 will have a SIM card slot and eSIM support, and then the US version will not have a SIM card slot, will only do eSIM. And now my my assumption here is is the Chinese one will be SIM only, and they just have 3 different SKUs, for the different 2 SIM cards. Oh, yeah. They could do 2 SIM. And funny story with that, when they don't have the SIM, functionality physical SIM card functionality in the US. So someone opened it up, and it's just got a it's got, like, a plastic block in the place where the SIM card would be because they didn't wanna make it, you know, different phone model, and they didn't want it to bend when they click it. So they have the space for it. They just chose not to do it.
Carlos says, Cineverse is used to facilitate establishment of data sessions for roaming subscribers, also used for text and maybe multimedia messages. Well, it sounds like you've had no issues there. Have you had any issues with, someone buying a number or something and then it getting cut off midyear, like, while they're in their plan?
[00:36:20] Silent Link:
No. Never.
[00:36:22] ODELL:
And I guess that's just because you you pick your partners wisely? That's gonna be the hardest part of your business, right, is is the actual providers.
[00:36:32] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course. We, tried different vendors and, some were more reliable in terms of message reception and caller reception, and we are offering the best.
[00:36:46] ODELL:
That's awesome. Well, I wish you guys the best of luck. I I really do appreciate your service. I appreciate everything you do. Just go back to that merchant adoption tangent we were talking about. What do you think what do you think will what is the single biggest thing that'll help boost merchant adoption?
[00:37:05] Silent Link:
You do not have to hire an accountant.
[00:37:09] ODELL:
Why do you not have to hire an accountant?
[00:37:12] Silent Link:
Because you do not have to.
[00:37:17] ODELL:
Fair enough. Literally. I mean, it's it's pretty cool that you can just offer your business globally. Just accept Bitcoin, not deal with banks or anything. Well, Freaks, if you don't have any more questions, I'm gonna wrap this thing up because this has been probably the highest signal 40 minutes I've ever done on dispatch, and I have no more questions for this gentleman. We'll give you, like, a little bit more time if you have any last minute questions. Let me see if Twitter has mentioned anything. Don't see any Twitter questions.
[00:38:02] Silent Link:
If I have more time.
[00:38:03] ODELL:
You have plenty of time. I'm here I'm here for you. What do you wanna talk about?
[00:38:08] Silent Link:
I would like to encourage our subscribers to use VPN.
[00:38:14] Silent Link:
I would like them to understand the difference between
[00:38:19] Silent Link:
VPN services and self hosted VPNs. Some are better for one thing, and some are better for other things. I would like to encourage them to study 2 on network. And, Great project.
[00:38:43] ODELL:
What was this what was the second project?
[00:38:46] Silent Link:
Hootenix. Hootenix is the pro proper way to use Tor.
[00:38:51] ODELL:
Right. On your VPN comment, this is a topic that I talk about a lot. You wanna go into what when you should be using, like, a hosted VPN like, MOLVAD versus using your own self hosted VPN on some kind of virtual private server somewhere?
[00:39:11] Silent Link:
Well, it's, obviously, if you use something like mobile, you kind of, supposedly have an unlinked set of other users, whereas if you if you use your own VPN, then your IP address connects all your activity. But I guess for, maybe not majority, but the large portion of people, it really makes sense to study this self hosted VPN option.
[00:39:47] ODELL:
Well, so, I mean, when when I look at the trade off, when you're using a hosted VPN when you're using a hosted VPN, you're trusting the hosted VPN provider. So if you're using MOLVAD, MOLVAD says, you know, we don't take any logs. We we're not tracking your Internet traffic, but there's no way for anyone to prove it. It's a trust relationship. Now MOLVAD is similar to your offering in that it doesn't even ask for an email address. You literally just get an account number. You pay with Bitcoin, you get an account number. So they don't specifically know who you are, but they obviously know your IP addresses, stuff like that when you connect to the network, and you are trusting them with your Internet traffic. But the benefit there is if you go to some website, let's say you go to let's say you you go to google.com, your IP address shows up as every other mobile user that uses that. So you have the anonymity set of the crowd there. Now if you use a self hosted VPN, you don't have to trust a hosted VPN provider because you're running it yourself.
But if you go to Google and then you go to Facebook and then you go to Amazon or something, that same IP address will be linked across all three of those sites. So they they have different benefits and and negatives, and you kinda have to weigh them depending on what you're trying to achieve and what your threat model is. Do you think that was well put?
[00:41:15] Silent Link:
Yes. Absolutely. Exactly. Like that. But now it's quite easy to, host host the VPS without providing you identity as well.
[00:41:26] ODELL:
Do you have any recommended services for that?
[00:41:30] Silent Link:
Luna.
[00:41:31] ODELL:
Luna. For example. Luna requires a phone number, but you could just use your cell phone number.
[00:41:38] Silent Link:
Exit. Fair enough.
[00:41:42] ODELL:
We have, I mean, obviously, you just told everyone they should look into VPNs and run a VPN when they're running, SilentLink. But BTC pins asked, is there much benefit to doing that? So why do you tell people that they should do that?
[00:41:58] Silent Link:
Using a VPN because, we actually do not want even our roaming partner to be able to, snoop into the data track. And, maybe, having a Polish or Israeli IP address is not the best option in all the cases. So we would like to, point our users to the fact that they are absolutely free, to have control over the IP address by using VPNs.
[00:42:35] ODELL:
Yeah. I just like the constant the constant push by you. And even all the literature on the website is what I've talked about a lot, which is this idea that, you know, to to if if you're running a privacy if you're running any business, like, really, you should want it the the least amount of information on your customers as possible. You don't want that liability. I don't want you don't wanna know what they're doing, because then all of a sudden, like, you could hand over that data. You could be forced to hand over that data. That data could leak. And I really just appreciate how it's just constant. It's constant with you that you just don't want you want as little information on your users as possible.
[00:43:19] Silent Link:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you for pointing that.
[00:43:24] ODELL:
Awesome. Do you have any any additional thoughts before we wrap?
[00:43:31] Silent Link:
A big shout out to, Spector wallet team and Stepan Snegurov in particular. I see. If they're a great product, then I don't know how we would operate our business because, actually, we believe only in do it yourself hardware bots.
[00:43:55] ODELL:
Oh, so you actually like you use the their Spectre DIY hardware wallet?
[00:44:00] Silent Link:
Several of them. And we're constantly buying more for our partners, for our friends, for our relatives.
[00:44:08] ODELL:
That's awesome. Yeah. No. I love that team. They also have a great software wallet on desktop. Them and Sparrow are my 2 favorite desktop wallets, fully open source. You can use it with your own node very easily. Have you ever checked out the seed signer project? It's very similar to their DIY product, but it's, cheaper.
[00:44:33] Silent Link:
Actually, I we appreciate the effort, but comparing the seed signer to the Spectrum wallet is how will you do the same product the wrong way?
[00:44:47] ODELL:
Well, I like the spiciness. Why?
[00:44:50] Silent Link:
Because the main thing about main things about Spectrum wallet are, it has a big screen, so it lets you easily input your seed words, and you actually can use it stateless. And only by using it stateless, it gives you the ultimate freedom and ultimate security. With the system, unfortunately, you are tied to your hardware device. You cannot easily input your SibWords.
[00:45:23] ODELL:
But they are you aware of their c q r format?
[00:45:29] Silent Link:
You have to store this QR somewhere.
[00:45:32] ODELL:
Yeah. I'm aware. It's like,
[00:45:35] Silent Link:
never ending. So this part, you have this part, and it never
[00:45:41] ODELL:
never ends. Have you that's that's very fair critique. That's a very it's, definitely a much smaller screen. It's harder to input, seeds in. Do you ever use the smart card feature on the Spectre DIY?
[00:45:57] Silent Link:
Not us, but some of our partners do.
[00:46:00] ODELL:
It's kinda cool that you have that as an option. Yeah.
[00:46:03] Silent Link:
Yeah. In some for some use cases, it's great. Right? Well, anyway like that they the board does not have any communication capability at all. Right. And it cannot even multitask. Right. It's a very stupid device. And you can audit the all the coded scale on Python
[00:46:33] Silent Link:
values.
[00:46:34] ODELL:
Awesome. Well, I will echo the sentiment. I definitely appreciate the team over at Spectre, Stepan. They're fucking legends. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for for your product. Your project is awesome. I love it. I hope you continue to listen to dispatch, and, if I get as I use it, if I have any more feedback, whatnot, I will not hesitate to reach out to you, and I hope you'd be willing to do the same. If if you need anything from me, just consider me, consider me at your service in terms of in terms of feedback or or anything else.
[00:47:12] Silent Link:
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
[00:47:15] ODELL:
Thank you, sir. To all the freaks, reminder that silent dot link, very easy to use. I hope you all found this helpful. If you have any more questions for silent.link, hit us in our matrix chat. If you go to citadel dispatch.com, it's right there, citadel.chat, or send a boostagram with your comments, and I can relay them over to silent link. He's also very active on Twitter. His Twitter handle is at silent link 1 on Twitter, so you can hit him up directly. Yeah. And that's all. I appreciate you all. Stay humble, stack sets. Cheers.
Bye.
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel Dispatch. The audience funded show focused on actionable discussion only. Citadel dispatch has no ads or sponsors. It is funded by you guys. It's funded by our audience. I appreciate all you who continue to support the show. I could not do it without you. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2.0 apps like Breeze, Fountain, Podverse dot f m. You simply load the app up with sats, search to dispatch, press the subscribe button, pick how many sats you think the show is worth per minute, and then as you listen, it will automatically send sats to my node.
Podcasting 2.0 also has a boostogram feature. A boostogram is a flat payment that you send, one lump sum payment, and it can include a message. You can think of it kind of like a global comment section. And the top boost to grounds from the previous episode are read, at the beginning of every episode. You can also support the show by going to sil dispatch.com. I have a BTC pay server there. You can support through on chain Bitcoin or lightning Bitcoin through that BTC pay server. I also have a Pay NIM, which uses BIP 47 supported by Samari Wallet and Sparrow Wallet. My Pay NIM is Odell. Very easy to remember, so you can send support that way. I do thank all the freaks who continue to support the show. Like I said, I could not do it without you.
And now I understand that it is a bear market. If you cannot support the show via stats, it's completely respectable. You can also support the show by subscribing, leaving a review on your favorite platform, whether that's Twitch, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. So dispatch is available in all podcast apps. Consider sharing it with your friends and family. That really does go a long way, and I appreciate all of you who do that. As always, on SIL dispatch, we will have our live chat going. You can participate in a live chat on YouTube, Twitch, or on our matrix chat. All those links are at sill dispatch.com.
That is if you click that citadel.chat link, obviously, the Twitch link is if you click Twitch, and YouTube is if you click YouTube. So, before we get started, I'm just gonna read some of the top boostograms, from the previous few shows. We had, user, lots of numbers attached to the user, gave sent 60,000 sats. He said, you had me dying when you had to clarify that douchebag was a username, LOL. Then we had Riku Maru saying with 12,000 sats saying, thanks for not shying away from the hard topics. Matt, I'm a fan of Samura, and I think the conclusion of the show should be, please add a warning screen on mobile app a la Spiro in order to help onboarding education. We have Blockchain Boog with 5,000 sets saying great combo. I would give it to Zelco.
And then I'm also gonna go and read some from our most recent bitcoin dot review episode. We have Peter with a 100,000 sat saying, here's $20 to buy a burrito in ramala Ramallah. Cheers. And then we have CA Danner, ride or die freak with 75100 sat saying, love the good nature debate and good humor from from your satoshi white paper artist freak, CA Danner. We have CA Danner's art up at Bitcoin Park. I really do appreciate you, CA. And then we have Nomad Joe, last but not least, with 2,222 SAT saying, thanks for the research info. Anyway, you can read all the boostograms and your favorite podcasting 2 point o app. They're all public.
I will continue to read them in the future. I do appreciate all the support once again. So with all that said, we have a very interesting guest and topic lined up for today. You may have heard me talk about their project in the past. That project is silent.link. It is a, it is a website where you can pay with Bitcoin without any KYC info and get a mobile phone eSIM. If you remember those SIM cards that we use to enable a mobile phone, Now they have digital versions that you can download right to your phone. You can buy one of these at silent.link. And we have, I believe, the founder of silent.link or one of the lead maintainers on the show today. How's it going, silent link?
[00:05:07] Silent Link:
Good. Happy Bitcoin Monday, Fricks. Happy to be here with you today. That's okay. With some hard questions.
[00:05:16] ODELL:
It's a pleasure to finally have you, my dude. I know you, you listen to dispatch regularly, and I've been trying to get you on the show for a while now.
[00:05:25] Silent Link:
Of course.
[00:05:27] ODELL:
So, I mean, let's let's just, I I we're both planning on keeping this conversation tight, right to the point. As always, Freaks, if you have any questions or comments, just throw them in the live chat, and we will get to them. Let's start with, just a basic rundown of of the offering of SilentLink. What does SilentLink offer people?
[00:05:49] Silent Link:
We offer buying anonymous, it seems it seems that they're completely decoupled from your official identity. We do not require anything. We do not require even an email address. You just pay Bitcoin and, get an eSIM that can, have or a number or be just data only as in?
[00:06:16] ODELL:
Right. So you can you can there's 2 offerings. There's one where it's it's just Internet data only. You don't have a phone number attached to it, and then there's one that's more expensive that you have a phone number attached to it. I guess so, obviously, we've talked on dispatch a lot about mobile phone privacy, and a lot of that starts, which which carrier you choose and and and how you get that SIM card. Throughout throughout the developed world. It's becoming harder and harder to get a SIM card that's not immediately attached to your identity. If you sign up for something like one of the big majors in in in America, like an AT and T or Verizon, they, like, basically ask for everything short of the blood of your firstborn child. They're asking for your name, your your email, your mailing address, maybe a driver's license number, credit card information. All this stuff is obviously completely tied to your identity.
A lot of us have gone out of our way to go and get SIM cards with cash and buy them with cash. But even a lot of those prepaid SIM cards now, once you get them, you have to go and activate on their website, and they require all this additional information. Maybe they block VPN usage, while you're doing the sign up process. It's it's a really difficult process to to get a SIM card that that isn't, directly tied to your legal identity. Now how are you able to offer us the ability to buy these ESIMs without giving you any personal information when all of these other companies aren't able to do that?
[00:07:54] Silent Link:
That's because we're a little bit deeper than the front end of the major operators, that actually have this task of identifying their customers, mostly because they relate to advertising, I guess. But for surveillance, of course, too. When you deal with, say, bulk offerings, when you buy numbers, when you buy channels, when you buy SIM profiles, there is actually no requirement to provide KYC information, with the exception of phone numbers. Phone numbers were difficult for us to source without KYC requirements, but we managed to get United States phone numbers and, United Kingdom phone numbers. For some limited time, we were offering, Dutch phone numbers.
But at the moment, we are out of, the stock, and we are still looking for a way to source non non KYC numbers to offer you.
[00:09:07] ODELL:
So so from from your perspective, when when you're operating this business, it's easier for you to get that data only SIM than it is for you to actually get provision phone numbers.
[00:09:21] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course. Interesting. Get them also, to sell them because they work much better.
[00:09:31] ODELL:
Well, obviously, the the Internet the Internet only data plans are are useful for people. You're able to, you know, then use them with different VoIP applications and stuff like that. But a lot of a lot of the advantage is lost when you don't have the phone number. So many different services require phone numbers that are basically used as these identifiers. So the fact that we can get phone numbers through silent link is is probably, substantially, you know, bigger of a deal for users than than the data only.
[00:10:08] Silent Link:
Yes. But, as irresponsible vendor, they always, warn our customers that when they get these, these numbers, they're dealing with outdated technology, and they always in the risk of identifying themselves, like, for example, using these capabilities of voice and text, by actually talking and receiving messages from other people, and all this is logged and voice is voice fingerprinted. And, actually, it doesn't make much sense to buy one of our identity plans and then start talking on the phone like the good old days.
[00:10:57] ODELL:
Right. So this is why on your website, you suggest people, if they they get a phone number, they attach it to something like signal or attach it to something like WhatsApp, and then use the VoIP capabilities of that app rather than actually use the native call functionality. But, also, your the your your plans don't include outbound calls. Users cannot make outbound calls. What what's the reasoning for that?
[00:11:27] Silent Link:
There are several very strong reasons for that. First and foremost is that once we offer outbound call and text capability, we, have to deal with enormous volumes of abuse and spam. It's not really feasible for us. 2nd, it doesn't make much sense in terms of providing an anonymous service because as I have already mentioned, the subscribers get immediately voice fingerprinted on their calls. So it simply doesn't work that way. These are main reasons. And another, more technical reason is it's a little bit easier to source phone numbers, with inbound voice capability without outbound outbound voice capability, with no KYC information.
[00:12:29] ODELL:
Right. So a lot of it is just how, you know, what you have available to you.
[00:12:36] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. And what we can, further, like, sustain as a service. Because if we become a place, that where most of the spam is originated, we Finally, it just will be shut down. That's all. Right. That makes sense.
[00:12:56] ODELL:
So, I mean, we have communer in the matrix chat, wants everyone to know that the matrix chat is the best chat. I I just want all the freaks. If if you're a new freak, just to be aware that that matrix chat goes 247, 365. So even when we're not, broadcasting live on dispatch, we have a lot of great discussion over there, and you should consider joining even if you're participating through YouTube or Twitch. So what what's the reasoning so outbound calls are not allowed, outbound texts are not allowed, but inbound calls and texts are allowed. Is that just, to give users options? Like, why not disable both of those 2 if if part of it is privacy reasons?
[00:13:44] Silent Link:
Because inbound calls and the inbound text is what you need to register accounts. Oh, of course.
[00:13:51] ODELL:
Right. Like, I'm signing up on signal, it's gonna send me a confirmation text. Or I'm signing up on Twitter, it's gonna send me a confirmation text with the code, and I'm gonna need that.
[00:13:59] Silent Link:
That's why it's called identity. Right. And then if you if you ever need to call public switch telephone network, I e, regular phone numbers, we, suggest that you sign up for some VoIP service of your own choice. We will not ever offer this service because we do not, mix the risks in one place. Right. You sign sign up. Preferably, it should be anonymous and, paid with Bitcoin and use that to call, public telephone network.
[00:14:41] ODELL:
Right. That makes sense to me. So you you you answered this question on Twitter that someone had a Horizon Compass had this question. Does silent link use roaming all the time? And what is the advantage of using a foreign identity account, AKA using a UK number in the US versus a US number in the US. Do you wanna go into that a little bit? Let's let's start with why why does silent link use roaming all the time?
[00:15:16] Silent Link:
It's actually an old trick. VIP persons were, using roaming SIM cards for as long as SIM cards exist. It's actually much more difficult to surveil a SIM card that's not, issued by a local operator that came from some other country. It's very trivial to for local law enforcement or someone that can have some connections in the local operator to do whatever they want with their SIM card. If it's issued by some foreign telecom, it's much, much harder.
[00:16:12] ODELL:
So so if I use if I'm using the US identity on SilentLink and I'm getting a US number, that's a US number provided by a non US based telco? Or is that
[00:16:30] Silent Link:
actually, yes. Actually, yes. We source numbers, separately from where we source profiles and where we get the roaming service. These are all different entities, different operators, and, we make sure that this is all interoperable.
[00:16:51] ODELL:
So if I'm using a US identity, we got a US phone number through silent link, and I'm using it in the States. I'm, like, base I'm basically roaming on T Mobile or something like that, but T Mobile hasn't provided me the the the SIM. The SIM is a different telco. And as a result as a result, T Mobile has less, ability to to basically, pull files on me. Did I get that correct?
[00:17:24] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. First, they do not know your identity. Right. 2nd, they do not ever know your phone number. Because, when a foreign SIM is, roaming, in the carrier network, the carrier does not know its phone number. It's, the operate, internal ID. It's called IMSI.
[00:17:53] ODELL:
Right. And that's different that's different than the IMEI.
[00:17:59] Silent Link:
Yeah. IMEI is the hardware, identifier.
[00:18:03] ODELL:
Got it. And IMSI is the SIM identifier? Or is Yes. Exactly. So BTC PINs asked if he uses an eSIM on his phone that also has a SIM in it, like a physical SIM that's attached to his identity, the 2 can be linked. Correct?
[00:18:25] Silent Link:
Theoretically, yes. But, in practice, they will have different, IMEIs because the SIM part of the phone has one IMEI and the EUICC. This is the eSIM part of the phone has a different IMEI for the phones that I know. So it's not actually horrible.
[00:18:50] ODELL:
It's better to use a fresh phone, but it's not horrible.
[00:18:54] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course, the manufacturer knows knows the link between those identifiers. But for for the carrier, it's not trivial.
[00:19:06] ODELL:
Got it. Can can the carrier that I'm roaming on tell that I that I bought my SIM on silent link?
[00:19:18] Silent Link:
Yes. It's possible because, all most, most of our it seems come from 1, one roaming partner. So they most of them appear as if you're a visitor from Poland or Israel. Got it. But we will be offering more, it seems, from, different vendors as well.
[00:19:44] ODELL:
Love that. And BGC Pens made an interesting point about the previous sim physical sim versus e sim. Google would have a database of both of those identifiers. So, presumably, the man if it's a pixel. So, presumably, the manufacturer could link the 2. Right? If it's like an iPhone or a Pixel or something.
[00:20:07] Silent Link:
Sure. Manufacturer can do that. Buy a new phone.
[00:20:10] ODELL:
Right. It's always better to buy a new phone, fresh phone. Sure. Okay. That makes sense to me. So, I mean, one of the one of the main questions that I've that I've always had is, obviously, if I if I'm using silent.link, when when we talk about phone privacy, there's there's 2 main trust factors that in my head. And one is if you're using plain text, just regular SMS messages. Obviously, those are, like, postcards. They're not encrypted. The carrier can read them. And the other is, you know, phone regular phone calls. But let's say you're you're not doing either of those, so they're going through an app or whatever that's encrypted, like signal or matrix or something like that. The secondary trust factor is that there is an ability to triangulate your location using near cell towers. So they take 3 cell towers, and they're able to track your location based on those 3 cell towers.
Is SilentLink are you able to if you were coerced, if you were forced to or or if you wanted to do this, are are we putting trust in you not to triangulate our location? Is that possible for you?
[00:21:36] Silent Link:
Actually, we have no information at all. We are kind of, retailers. So so the only information that they have is the date and time of, purchase. That's all. So if one of our users is targeted, then what actually happens is this. The authorities might follow the number. They will come to the pool number pool operator. From there, they will go to a roaming provider. From there, they will eventually get to a local carrier, and only the local carrier has the location information.
[00:22:34] ODELL:
Got it. So they have to go through all those hoops before they could actually figure out what towers it attached to? They couldn't just go if I was roaming on T Mobile, they couldn't just go to T Mobile and be, like, what where the location is?
[00:22:48] Silent Link:
If they know that you were located in some spot, then, of course, they do not need to, go all the way. They just can continue allocating you based on your previous location information.
[00:23:02] ODELL:
Right. They take that device, and then they just track that device.
[00:23:05] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. They already know your IMEI, and they can forward.
[00:23:11] ODELL:
Got it. What would you and I think this is kinda connected to the last question. I mean, I so it's it's really hard for in in in America, it's gotten increasingly difficult to get to get a phone number without attaching it to your identity. It I I you know, you you seem to allude that a lot of it is is based on on corporate the the the need for corporations or corporations desiring to sell our marketing data. But it seems like there's also a major regulatory push to, to force KYC information when you buy a phone number. So as a result, when someone sees a service like this, that seems almost too good to be true, like, I can just literally just go to the website, pay with Bitcoin, press the download button, and then my compatible phone that's compatible with eSIMs literally just all of a sudden has cell reception and a phone number, and I can top it up with Bitcoin without providing an email or or anything.
Their the first thought is is this must be, you know, an intentional honey pot. This must be a spook. This must be someone who's trying to deanonymize people that want privacy or Bitcoiners specifically. What do you say to people that have that concern?
[00:24:47] Silent Link:
Well, if someone doesn't ask you for your identity, it doesn't make you a spook. And that's a very We are just a way we're just a way not to provide this information. That's it.
[00:25:04] ODELL:
So why do you why do you think there aren't other why are you the only ones? Like, why why are you the only ones? Like, are there other services that I can use out there that I can just pay with Bitcoin and just not give up any information and get a NESIM? Why do you think that we know of.
[00:25:22] Silent Link:
Now that we know of. I guess that's not because it's inherently impossible to provide the service, as I have said already. It's because people that are in telecom do not trust Bitcoin as a means of payment yet.
[00:25:44] ODELL:
So there there are service so most of these types of services, they just choose credit cards because that's what people are comfortable with. That's what you think.
[00:25:53] Silent Link:
People are comfy comfortable with doing what they are used to be doing for some time.
[00:25:58] ODELL:
Right. I mean, so let's jump into the product offering a little but first of all, I just wanna thank you again for joining us. This is a product that I've used, I find very useful. Like I said, I've talked about on dispatch many times. It is, I mean, it it is the ideal type of product that you'd like to see come out of of Bitcoin as a payments technology. Like, the ability that I I can essentially shop from you as a provider from around the world without giving you my private information and get a service that I that I really need, that I can't find somewhere else. And it's also very useful for travel. Like, I I know a lot of people that use it specifically when they come to America, because it's hard to get a data plan in America, as an international.
So so first, the user is paying the user pays $60, a year reoccurring fee for the identity plan. We'll focus on the identity plan. They get the US number, and they have a $5 initial balance, And then so they're getting they get a page. They basically get, like, an account page that they have to save, and that account page is where they they basically have to top it up to pay for their data usage and, their text usage if they're if they're using text messages, on a per usage basis. How does how do you come up with the and the pricing is all listed at silent.lang/rates. How how are these prices, determined?
[00:27:48] Silent Link:
They are mostly determined by the roaming operator. They are offering the same prices.
[00:27:57] ODELL:
And, presumably, you add a you're adding a silent link fee on top so you can make money. Right?
[00:28:05] Silent Link:
You have a certain discount.
[00:28:07] ODELL:
Right. So so, actually, the roaming provider like, so you're getting the SIM from, like you said, like, a Polish provider or an Israeli provider, and then they have a contract with, like, T Mobile in the United States to pay a certain rate. And then they pass that on to you, and then you charge the customer.
[00:28:27] Silent Link:
Yes. Awesome.
[00:28:32] ODELL:
Phryx, if you have any additional questions while we have silent.link, here, please, throw them in the chat. This has been an extremely productive conversation so far. I mean, we're only a half an hour in, and I just feel like we've nailed pretty much everything. What is there something specifically that you'd like to talk about?
[00:28:59] Silent Link:
Merchant adoption maybe. I would like to invite all merchants to join us with providing the services to the Bitcoin community because it's a great pleasure.
[00:29:15] ODELL:
Just merchants in general of all different types? Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you think It's a very eye opening experience. Do you think, do you think we're trending in the right direction? Are are you are are you disappointed with how few Bitcoin merchants are, or is it the opposite that you're you're impressed with? The opposite. We we are impressed. It's a great pleasure as I've seen. I feel like it's been growing relatively quickly, at least recently, the last, like, 2 years or so. And and, specifically, I mean, what's really rare is is seeing Bitcoin only merchants like yourself where you don't even, you don't even accept credit cards. You there's no fiat. It's just Bitcoin only.
[00:29:59] Silent Link:
Yeah. We have some pressure from the American Unity, who we respect. That Uh-huh. As a native means of payment, but we have no such plans at the moment because, BTC paid server is, in management of the Lightning node. There's enough headache for us at the moment.
[00:30:24] ODELL:
So right now, I mean, you have a link on your website. You essentially, like, tell people to use one of the swap services if they wanna pay with Monero. Right?
[00:30:32] Silent Link:
Yes. That's that should work for everybody, and, we do not have to deal with another another asset. Unfortunately, some people are always making us with, we do not want to trust some third party. We try to explain that it doesn't make any sense, actually. You do not need to trust fixed float to do the payment.
[00:30:59] ODELL:
Well, you there's, like, custodial there's custodial risk temporary custodial risk when you they send it if fixed float doesn't send the payment on. But it's like they're trusting them with, like, $60,
[00:31:08] Silent Link:
whatever. And for several seconds.
[00:31:11] ODELL:
Yeah. Exactly. So do do you think, that's interesting. I mean, for a lot for a long time, like, I mean, I I personally think BTC pay server is one of the most important projects in our space, just because it makes it so easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin natively and sovereignly, and it seems like you would agree with that.
[00:31:35] Silent Link:
Of course. Of course. And, actually, URLs, is what made us, make the service.
[00:31:43] ODELL:
Who who did?
[00:31:47] Silent Link:
You're saying that it's one of the most important, projects in the Bitcoin space. Oh, that means a lot. Glad to hear that. Have to power, yeah, yeah, our attention to this to BTCPay server, and, then after we saw it, of course, we want to use
[00:32:02] ODELL:
it. Oh, yeah.
[00:32:04] Silent Link:
Owning a payment system.
[00:32:06] ODELL:
It's pretty powerful.
[00:32:09] Silent Link:
Yeah.
[00:32:11] ODELL:
So I so it looks like we have more questions from the freaks now. Appreciate all you freaks who give us questions. Couldn't do without you. We have Carlos in the comments saying, have you ever had any issues with the providers that connect some mobile network operators, I e, Syniverse?
[00:32:30] Silent Link:
No.
[00:32:32] ODELL:
Do you know what Syniverse is? No. Neither do I. No. Carlos, if you wanna give us more context, in the comments, let us know. I don't know what Cineverse is. We also have dread, ride or die freak Dred in the matrix chat asking, any thoughts around streaming lightning as a payment for data SMS?
[00:32:57] Silent Link:
I would like to see lightning used for everything. It's a great technology.
[00:33:05] ODELL:
I mean, that seems, like, way more complicated to implement than just topping up on the website.
[00:33:13] Silent Link:
Yes.
[00:33:14] ODELL:
But it's cool concept. Is there any he's also asking, is there any kind of VPN proxy bridge functionality bent into the eSIM for places like China?
[00:33:26] Silent Link:
Great question. Actually, our eSIMs are very useful in China. And in in mind that our Emirates because they completely circumvent the state firewalls.
[00:33:38] ODELL:
Well, because they're roaming? Just
[00:33:41] Silent Link:
yes. Yes. Because the data goes to Poland or Israel, and it goes to to the Internet from there. So Oh, that's interesting. Great China firewall. Unfortunately, Chinese Communist Party goes to great lengths to, forbid any it's incompatible forms from China. So you cannot buy an ISIN compatible form in China. You can only bring it from abroad.
[00:34:15] ODELL:
But oh, I see. So the, the phones aren't even sold there. You have to get the the physical phone. You have to get abroad.
[00:34:24] Silent Link:
Yes. Yes. The, iPhones and the Pixels, I don't know if they have have pixels, but they have iPhones definitely, and the iPhones, that are sold on channel do not have a sim capability at all. Oh, so, like, the new iPhone, the iPhone 14 that they made a whole big deal about being eSIM only, the one that's sold in China is gonna have no eSIM compatibility whatsoever. I I wonder what they're going to do with all the previous models, that was sold sold in China mainland, had no sync mobility whatsoever.
[00:34:56] ODELL:
That's interesting. I mean, my understanding, just for a little bit of context, with the iPhone 14 is Europe is forcing them to have a SIM card slot. So the European version of the iPhone 14 will have a SIM card slot and eSIM support, and then the US version will not have a SIM card slot, will only do eSIM. And now my my assumption here is is the Chinese one will be SIM only, and they just have 3 different SKUs, for the different 2 SIM cards. Oh, yeah. They could do 2 SIM. And funny story with that, when they don't have the SIM, functionality physical SIM card functionality in the US. So someone opened it up, and it's just got a it's got, like, a plastic block in the place where the SIM card would be because they didn't wanna make it, you know, different phone model, and they didn't want it to bend when they click it. So they have the space for it. They just chose not to do it.
Carlos says, Cineverse is used to facilitate establishment of data sessions for roaming subscribers, also used for text and maybe multimedia messages. Well, it sounds like you've had no issues there. Have you had any issues with, someone buying a number or something and then it getting cut off midyear, like, while they're in their plan?
[00:36:20] Silent Link:
No. Never.
[00:36:22] ODELL:
And I guess that's just because you you pick your partners wisely? That's gonna be the hardest part of your business, right, is is the actual providers.
[00:36:32] Silent Link:
Yes. Of course. We, tried different vendors and, some were more reliable in terms of message reception and caller reception, and we are offering the best.
[00:36:46] ODELL:
That's awesome. Well, I wish you guys the best of luck. I I really do appreciate your service. I appreciate everything you do. Just go back to that merchant adoption tangent we were talking about. What do you think what do you think will what is the single biggest thing that'll help boost merchant adoption?
[00:37:05] Silent Link:
You do not have to hire an accountant.
[00:37:09] ODELL:
Why do you not have to hire an accountant?
[00:37:12] Silent Link:
Because you do not have to.
[00:37:17] ODELL:
Fair enough. Literally. I mean, it's it's pretty cool that you can just offer your business globally. Just accept Bitcoin, not deal with banks or anything. Well, Freaks, if you don't have any more questions, I'm gonna wrap this thing up because this has been probably the highest signal 40 minutes I've ever done on dispatch, and I have no more questions for this gentleman. We'll give you, like, a little bit more time if you have any last minute questions. Let me see if Twitter has mentioned anything. Don't see any Twitter questions.
[00:38:02] Silent Link:
If I have more time.
[00:38:03] ODELL:
You have plenty of time. I'm here I'm here for you. What do you wanna talk about?
[00:38:08] Silent Link:
I would like to encourage our subscribers to use VPN.
[00:38:14] Silent Link:
I would like them to understand the difference between
[00:38:19] Silent Link:
VPN services and self hosted VPNs. Some are better for one thing, and some are better for other things. I would like to encourage them to study 2 on network. And, Great project.
[00:38:43] ODELL:
What was this what was the second project?
[00:38:46] Silent Link:
Hootenix. Hootenix is the pro proper way to use Tor.
[00:38:51] ODELL:
Right. On your VPN comment, this is a topic that I talk about a lot. You wanna go into what when you should be using, like, a hosted VPN like, MOLVAD versus using your own self hosted VPN on some kind of virtual private server somewhere?
[00:39:11] Silent Link:
Well, it's, obviously, if you use something like mobile, you kind of, supposedly have an unlinked set of other users, whereas if you if you use your own VPN, then your IP address connects all your activity. But I guess for, maybe not majority, but the large portion of people, it really makes sense to study this self hosted VPN option.
[00:39:47] ODELL:
Well, so, I mean, when when I look at the trade off, when you're using a hosted VPN when you're using a hosted VPN, you're trusting the hosted VPN provider. So if you're using MOLVAD, MOLVAD says, you know, we don't take any logs. We we're not tracking your Internet traffic, but there's no way for anyone to prove it. It's a trust relationship. Now MOLVAD is similar to your offering in that it doesn't even ask for an email address. You literally just get an account number. You pay with Bitcoin, you get an account number. So they don't specifically know who you are, but they obviously know your IP addresses, stuff like that when you connect to the network, and you are trusting them with your Internet traffic. But the benefit there is if you go to some website, let's say you go to let's say you you go to google.com, your IP address shows up as every other mobile user that uses that. So you have the anonymity set of the crowd there. Now if you use a self hosted VPN, you don't have to trust a hosted VPN provider because you're running it yourself.
But if you go to Google and then you go to Facebook and then you go to Amazon or something, that same IP address will be linked across all three of those sites. So they they have different benefits and and negatives, and you kinda have to weigh them depending on what you're trying to achieve and what your threat model is. Do you think that was well put?
[00:41:15] Silent Link:
Yes. Absolutely. Exactly. Like that. But now it's quite easy to, host host the VPS without providing you identity as well.
[00:41:26] ODELL:
Do you have any recommended services for that?
[00:41:30] Silent Link:
Luna.
[00:41:31] ODELL:
Luna. For example. Luna requires a phone number, but you could just use your cell phone number.
[00:41:38] Silent Link:
Exit. Fair enough.
[00:41:42] ODELL:
We have, I mean, obviously, you just told everyone they should look into VPNs and run a VPN when they're running, SilentLink. But BTC pins asked, is there much benefit to doing that? So why do you tell people that they should do that?
[00:41:58] Silent Link:
Using a VPN because, we actually do not want even our roaming partner to be able to, snoop into the data track. And, maybe, having a Polish or Israeli IP address is not the best option in all the cases. So we would like to, point our users to the fact that they are absolutely free, to have control over the IP address by using VPNs.
[00:42:35] ODELL:
Yeah. I just like the constant the constant push by you. And even all the literature on the website is what I've talked about a lot, which is this idea that, you know, to to if if you're running a privacy if you're running any business, like, really, you should want it the the least amount of information on your customers as possible. You don't want that liability. I don't want you don't wanna know what they're doing, because then all of a sudden, like, you could hand over that data. You could be forced to hand over that data. That data could leak. And I really just appreciate how it's just constant. It's constant with you that you just don't want you want as little information on your users as possible.
[00:43:19] Silent Link:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you for pointing that.
[00:43:24] ODELL:
Awesome. Do you have any any additional thoughts before we wrap?
[00:43:31] Silent Link:
A big shout out to, Spector wallet team and Stepan Snegurov in particular. I see. If they're a great product, then I don't know how we would operate our business because, actually, we believe only in do it yourself hardware bots.
[00:43:55] ODELL:
Oh, so you actually like you use the their Spectre DIY hardware wallet?
[00:44:00] Silent Link:
Several of them. And we're constantly buying more for our partners, for our friends, for our relatives.
[00:44:08] ODELL:
That's awesome. Yeah. No. I love that team. They also have a great software wallet on desktop. Them and Sparrow are my 2 favorite desktop wallets, fully open source. You can use it with your own node very easily. Have you ever checked out the seed signer project? It's very similar to their DIY product, but it's, cheaper.
[00:44:33] Silent Link:
Actually, I we appreciate the effort, but comparing the seed signer to the Spectrum wallet is how will you do the same product the wrong way?
[00:44:47] ODELL:
Well, I like the spiciness. Why?
[00:44:50] Silent Link:
Because the main thing about main things about Spectrum wallet are, it has a big screen, so it lets you easily input your seed words, and you actually can use it stateless. And only by using it stateless, it gives you the ultimate freedom and ultimate security. With the system, unfortunately, you are tied to your hardware device. You cannot easily input your SibWords.
[00:45:23] ODELL:
But they are you aware of their c q r format?
[00:45:29] Silent Link:
You have to store this QR somewhere.
[00:45:32] ODELL:
Yeah. I'm aware. It's like,
[00:45:35] Silent Link:
never ending. So this part, you have this part, and it never
[00:45:41] ODELL:
never ends. Have you that's that's very fair critique. That's a very it's, definitely a much smaller screen. It's harder to input, seeds in. Do you ever use the smart card feature on the Spectre DIY?
[00:45:57] Silent Link:
Not us, but some of our partners do.
[00:46:00] ODELL:
It's kinda cool that you have that as an option. Yeah.
[00:46:03] Silent Link:
Yeah. In some for some use cases, it's great. Right? Well, anyway like that they the board does not have any communication capability at all. Right. And it cannot even multitask. Right. It's a very stupid device. And you can audit the all the coded scale on Python
[00:46:33] Silent Link:
values.
[00:46:34] ODELL:
Awesome. Well, I will echo the sentiment. I definitely appreciate the team over at Spectre, Stepan. They're fucking legends. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for for your product. Your project is awesome. I love it. I hope you continue to listen to dispatch, and, if I get as I use it, if I have any more feedback, whatnot, I will not hesitate to reach out to you, and I hope you'd be willing to do the same. If if you need anything from me, just consider me, consider me at your service in terms of in terms of feedback or or anything else.
[00:47:12] Silent Link:
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
[00:47:15] ODELL:
Thank you, sir. To all the freaks, reminder that silent dot link, very easy to use. I hope you all found this helpful. If you have any more questions for silent.link, hit us in our matrix chat. If you go to citadel dispatch.com, it's right there, citadel.chat, or send a boostagram with your comments, and I can relay them over to silent link. He's also very active on Twitter. His Twitter handle is at silent link 1 on Twitter, so you can hit him up directly. Yeah. And that's all. I appreciate you all. Stay humble, stack sets. Cheers.
Bye.
