Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 74

BLOCK: 749169

PRICE: 4140 sats per dollar

TOPICS: digital identities, privacy is not secrecy, freedom requires privacy, the end of the rockstardev identity
 
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[00:00:34] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Friday afternoon, freaks.   It's your boy Odell here   for the second of   a Citadel dispatch doubleheader on this Bitcoin Friday.   I am fortunate enough   to be   joined   by   previous   guest of the pod and good friend, Rockstar Dev. How's it going, Rockstar?   Always amazing when we're together, Matt, so   always amazing. It's been a big week.  

[00:01:08] Unknown:

It has been. I mean, we've been on panel together, then a workshop on privacy,   and, funeral tomorrow.   You really have   this Bitcoin part going with events.  

[00:01:22] Unknown:

So   the funeral that Rockstar is talking about   is he is   ending   this nim. He's ending this identity   tomorrow,   and I'm going to have the honor of   conducting the funeral. Is that is that the word?  

[00:01:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Leading the funeral, really,   with your beautiful voice, and I can't wait for the eulogy. You don't wanna share any details of the eulogy yet.  

[00:01:52] Unknown:

Very good eulogy.   Well, I hope so. No. I don't wanna build it up too much. It's my first it's my first eulogy. I've never given one before.   Oh, so I'm I'm your first. Nice. Yeah. And you're gonna actually be listening to it, which is like it adds extra pressure.  

[00:02:08] Unknown:

Well, I'm telling you, I'm still hoping you jump into casket with me. No shot. Not gonna happen.  

[00:02:15] Unknown:

Okay.   It's important to set expectations correctly.   So last time you were on the show, when was the last time you were on dispatch?  

[00:02:26] Unknown:

No. That's a hard question. I guess it's been,  

[00:02:29] Unknown:

like, 4 months. If I was Stefan, I would already have that information available, but I really do not know.  

[00:02:35] Unknown:

I don't know. You're you're good with episodes. I I love how you have those favorite episodes,   and someone mentioned some topic, and you're immediately, like, episode 43. Well, 43 is the Yeah. It's our beginner's episode. That's an important one to run for. Yeah.   Shout out to q and a for helping with that.   Shout out to him. I hope   you like   how Matt and me have delivered with those   stamps.   We have whole Miami with   no kyconly.com   stamp.   That was a good one.  

[00:03:07] Unknown:

So yeah. No. Yeah. I think he, he was happy about that. We argued about that on air.   Oh, which episode is that? Oh, I guess we didn't argue. Like, we didn't argue about it. We talked about it. We planned that out. Me and you planned that out together on air.  

[00:03:21] Unknown:

Oh, I thought you were talking with him. Yeah. Yeah. We planned it, and we delivered.   I mean,   we we even were were planning when the conference was happening. You're, like, overwhelmed running open source stage, and I'm like,   Matt, we have this, like, organized lady here that's like, oh, guys. You can't be stamping dollar bills.   Like, give you I'm like, Matt, help us out. Matt, which  

[00:03:44] Unknown:

hashtags should we use? I was like, I don't know who those I don't know who those people are. Yeah.   We have,   com communer in the comments saying, I'm listening to the pod from a few hours ago, and now there's another live one. LOL, relax.  

[00:04:01] Unknown:

No. I don't know. We can't do that. Sorry, man. When when Rockstar is in the house, we keep going hard. And,  

[00:04:08] Unknown:

hopefully, he's he's   when by the time he hears this, he'll be listening to it on the podcast app in, like, a couple days. But shout out  

[00:04:15] Unknown:

to him. Well, yeah, if if he doesn't wanna be a rock star then. Okay.  

[00:04:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   my new strategy with dispatch is,   when I have   when I have   good people in the area or I'm near them and I can do in person conversations, I'm gonna pump them out.   And,   when I don't, I'm not gonna waste my time or everyone else's time by just putting out episodes.   And I don't like sitting on episodes   because I feel like they age horribly, and I like the live format   because then we have our fantastic   all the freaks come and join us in the live chat.  

[00:05:02] Unknown:

Yeah. And we were talking about this yesterday   at the bar that,   it's it's really interesting format because   some conversations can happen only in, you know, certain point of time. Right. So  

[00:05:16] Unknown:

this whole thing with my funeral under quotation marks, if it's tomorrow, so This is literally the last possible opportunity to interview a rock star.  

[00:05:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   I just I'm telling you, I do wish I structured it a little bit better   because I I did make some commitments after the funeral,   but now I'm going for   cameos. Right? That's how it's called. So everyone is now asked for a bit block boom. Like, who is Rockstar being there, and I just wanna announce on your pod that it will be Gary Leland.   He's gonna shave his head and beat rock stars.   That's who who is   attending and presenting BTC based server workshop with Brit.  

[00:06:01] Unknown:

It's gonna be Gary Leland?  

[00:06:03] Unknown:

Yeah. My nephew. My oldest nephew. Good dude.   Amazing, dude.  

[00:06:08] Unknown:

So I guess let's start with, you know,   I really wanna start with what I was   you know, I can't stop thinking about today, and so I'd rather just   have a conversation about it in the beginning,   which is this whole   situation with Tornado Cash.   The US Treasury sanctioned the smart contract.   They got pulled from GitHub.   Infura and Alchemy, like, the hosted Ethereum node providers have,   blocked them. So if users aren't using their own node, they can't access a smart contract.   About 15%   of the liquidity in there, it was, like, $60,000,000   or something like that, has been withdrawn since the sanctions happened.  

Some famous people got dusted.   What else is there? Wrapped Bitcoin and USDC got frozen,   and   one of the 29 year old developers   got arrested in the Netherlands today.   Yep. Lot lot of lot of things to unpack there. I'm just curious. I mean, you're obviously   you're everybody's uncle.   You've been around for a minute.   I'm curious on your perspective here. I mean  

[00:07:25] Unknown:

Yeah. It is something that I've been thinking   about even,   like, as I was starting to contribute to BTC based server   because I don't know,   how many   people remember everything that happened through the history of BTC based server, but,  

[00:07:44] Unknown:

these comments are great. Sorry. I need to. Marty always gets mad at me when I read the comments when we're live, but  

[00:07:51] Unknown:

No. No. It's all about, as you say, it happens at the moment. Look at what SF said. Can't stay long.  

[00:07:57] Unknown:

Got family over right now. Just checking in to say hi in all caps. Thank you, rock star dev. Great work. Killing it since you've been around. Good stuff. Thank you, Asif.   Yeah.  

[00:08:10] Unknown:

For me,   I've been thinking about this. Yeah. As as I was, you know, starting to contribute to b t c pay server, and   there were quite a few moments where   you had situations where it's quite obvious that that I mean, this is coming.   As we proceed with separating money and state, it's insane to think that state will not fight fight back in some form.   And, we are still not at the stage where   it's really direct conflict,   but it's obviously indirect,   because   this this whole move to   place   smart contracts, like, under OFAC list, and then   there must have been someone in that decision process who was, like, how will we even enforce this?  

Like   like, we   there is no robust there is no fair way to enforce the regulation.   So, like, what, yeah, what are we doing here?   And,   to me, like, I've been thinking about that from the perspective of contributing to open source and b two c pay server because   it's it's the same thing. It's like, hey, someone   was running   BTC based server instance,   was accepting   funds,   for Some kind of criminal activity or something. Yeah. Something that's designated as a criminal activity in a local, you know,   regulatory region. And now, like, oh, you know, you created code that   allows that. Okay. It's your fault.  



[00:09:48] Unknown:

Yeah. The slope gets really slippery if you start   Yeah. If you start going after developers for the code they write. Yeah. And and  

[00:09:58] Unknown:

again, like, I don't know how many people remember, but I I distinctly remember the moment where it's like, okay, it's great that I'm at least a NIM. Well, although, yeah, I'm   not so good on on this nim,  

[00:10:11] Unknown:

which is one of the reasons why it's, yeah, getting killed. But It's a good timing. Yeah. It is. But Or maybe,  

[00:10:18] Unknown:

like, a year ago would have been good timing. Well, no. I think it takes it's still ahead of the curve because   do you remember when b t c based server was highlighted on Alex Jones?   No. I don't remember that. Well When was that? What's what's the name of that defense decentralized? Like, Cody, Court? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he went on Alex Jones and then Shilled   BTC pay server. I do remember that. Yeah. And   when I saw that on mainstream media, like, it was like, oh, they were accepting Bitcoin to   print guns. I was like, okay. Yeah. Great that that at least came. The the hornet nest. Yeah. Here comes the hornet nest. And only later do I learn it's I'm gonna dox you, but it's it's   a it's a bit steamed. He was   he had his   strategy general hands in all of that, but Of course. It's yeah. It's quite I mean, BTC Pay is perfect for that.  

Hey. BTC Pay is   perfect   as as a part of your, you know, sovereignty stack, and,   again,  

[00:11:25] Unknown:

it It allows anyone to accept money anywhere in the world without permission.  

[00:11:28] Unknown:

Yeah. And if you're really at the point where you need to do all this crazy stuff with controlling money flows, you need to stop and start to think, like, why am I in a disposition?   Like, why am I forced   to track money movements   on the level that that's even even today? Like like, something is wrong with the system.   Like, let's go few steps back and see what is wrong instead of,   like, what will they do now that were famous people got dusted? Like, will will they arrest Brian Armstrong? Well, the thing is Yeah. Brian can't prove that he didn't  

[00:12:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Withdraw the tornado cash himself. Exactly.   So   I mean, like, the first one's, like, a little bit,   like, whoever did the first dusting, like, dusted 0.1   to, like, a lot of celebrities   pretty much at the same time. But, like, if they just kept   if if that just keeps happening over and over again at different amounts, different days, different stuff like that, then all of a sudden, it gets really, really messy.   Part of the thing that I'm I mean, you mentioned,   like, how how is it possible to, like, enforce this stuff?   And, like, enforcement is obviously is obviously difficult,   but, like, one of the reasons   one of the main   parts of sanctions is, like, this chilling effect that sanctions do because   it's such a   it's such a high penalty environment, and it's so it's a lot of it's very vague, so people are scared.  

I even   we are like, the way we're saying our words, we're, like, watching ourselves on our words, and, like, I just wanna be clear, like, everyone should follow their local laws and not not evade sanctions. Absolutely. But,   there's this chilling effect, and I part of me wonders, like, if they were just chilling there in the US Treasury or the Biden administration. There's some rumors that, like, the directive came directly from the Biden administration. If it was like, hey. Like, all these so called, you know, DeFi projects and stuff are, like, all super interconnected,   and a lot of them have, like, central choke points and stuff. Let's   let's just sanction this address. Let's just sanction this contract address and just see what hell breaks loose. Because, like, a lot it's not, now all the different services are trying to cover their ass,   right, and kinda watch how it all unfolds. Like, maybe someone was just, you know, Yeah, but it's an exploratory thing.  



[00:13:55] Unknown:

Yeah, but if if they're really   exploring in that direction, I mean, it's pretty fucked  

[00:14:01] Unknown:

up. No. It's really fucked up. Yeah.   But I it kind of to me felt like   a fact finding kind of thing. Like, let's see what happens.   Like, tip of the spear kind of.   It's a very easy thing for them to do. They literally just updated a blog post with, like, the contract address, and then they, like, press send tweet, and then they, like,   go to bed, and they're, like, let's see what happens in the morning. Yeah. But, I mean, if you have any  

[00:14:31] Unknown:

semblance of a reasonable person, like, the idea that you can do that is, you know,   what maybe not when you wake up the next day, but the next next day, when you wake up, you need to start thinking, okay, like, is is this really how   systems should operate?   Like, that that you   need to,   that you need to arrest   a developer   in   Netherlands   who's like contributing   to open source project on GitHub. And   do you really wanna live in a world where, like, someone   updates their blog post? Like, that's that's a great way to say it. Literally all they did was up update their blog post. Yeah. And and now you have   thousands of people around the world covering their ass. I mean,   yeah, I I don't wanna live in that system. It's just   just stupid.  

Like, I wanna live in a system system we live in. Well, yeah.   Well, we we keep building towards a better system because   in this one, it's a like, what did you even solve the problem?   Right? That that that's my point. Did you, like, solve the problem, or   you you have covered your own ass?   Like, I I don't see that It's just a bunch of people scrambling to cover their own ass after the blog post update is basically what it is. And and even like that blog post update, it's a question, is covering someone else's ass.   You know? What do you mean? Well, they're they're having recent hires that are, like, cybersecurity,   initiatives and and all that stuff. Prove that they need something? Yeah.  

So   it's like, oh, I'm doing my job. Yeah.  

[00:16:17] Unknown:

Well, by doing Like, it's not really stopping criminals from doing anything. It's just hurting law abiding people. Just  

[00:16:23] Unknown:

people like it's even wasting the resources of a law abiding people   and the, like, criminals themselves, like, okay, yeah. It's   it's higher chaos environment in which it's easier to operate   because you have better structure, better system. Like, it's you getting arrested. It's now the whole narrative is is not about, okay, let's look into what's actual crime that's happening here, and let's see too if someone is doing something really wrong. Let's bring them to justice.   The queer talking here about,   oh,   like, developer got arrested. Should GitHub do this? Should, like, conversation is in completely different   arena, and, yeah, it's  

[00:17:06] Unknown:

waste of resources, you say. It was a massive waste of resources, and it I I really don't think it   deters most criminals.   Like, they're still,   are able to do whatever the fuck they want   for the most part.  

[00:17:21] Unknown:

Yep. Yep.   So   I don't know. I just feel bad for for that dev that got arrested. So and what I tweeted recently about this, it's just like, this is coming and   this is why expected.   Yeah. This is why,   like,   I I tweeted, like, if you haven't even an ounce of technical skill,   like, get prepared because simply it will be   as time goes on, it will be more and more attractive   to control developers.   And it says that code that you now publish   has such a big impact.  

[00:17:58] Unknown:

That you have a lot of value all of a sudden. And you have a lot of value in, like, controlling,  

[00:18:03] Unknown:

your code and,   your impact, like, brings brings even more value. So,   basically, I like, the the first   the first,   frontline that I see as as we continue this down this path of separating money and state it will be like that's how they're going to target. They're gonna target   developers and code repositories   and be like, okay.   Sarah tweeted today that was funny.   Like, Satoshi Nakamoto arrested for inventing Bitcoin and facilitating money laundering. You know? I mean, this is equivalent to,  

[00:18:41] Unknown:

like, putting Bitcoin on the sanctions list or putting,   Ethereum on the sanctions list, saying that whole project   is facilitating   crime.   Yeah. No one can use it. It's going to direct who   develops   and maintains it   is is liable for that.   Yeah. Even though the president, at least in America, is at code of speech and protected.  

[00:19:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Well,   we will see soon enough. I mean, it it seems like other it is one of those things that's, like,  

[00:19:16] Unknown:

it could get struck down by courts,   but if it takes, like, 2 or 3 years, the chilling effect is already done.   They learned a lot from how the systems work by causing chaos.   So, like, even though, like, the check is there, it doesn't really help that much in the short term. Right?  

[00:19:35] Unknown:

Yeah. But the way that I look at it is it's just   it will go down the path of proof of work, man. We need we need to put in the work because,   like,   if you really believe in separating money and state   and   you really have   ability   like, it's obvious to you and me, like, why that is a good thing. Okay.   Do we really believe in it or not? Okay. We do.   Then it's whatever it takes, man. It's   they they put Bitcoin   core repository   on   a, what it is, like, sanctions list or they're like, you're contributing to Bitcoin. You you're facilitating money laundering. Okay. You need to fight. You need to show that   it's a wrong approach.  

And do you what it's for. Yeah.  

[00:20:32] Unknown:

Do you   think   that   the priorities   of most Bitcoin stakeholders,   Like, are do you do you think   we are prepared   for what comes next?   Are you troubled at all by the reactions   over the last week of with all this stuff going on, or   do you think we're in a good place as an ecosystem?  

[00:21:04] Unknown:

I don't know how to phrase the question, but Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Like, especially Jacob was presenting all those different camps in bitcoin. Right.   Like speculators,   technologists.  

[00:21:15] Unknown:

Yeah. In Vegas, right? He did that. Yeah. Yeah. Unconverscatable.  

[00:21:18] Unknown:

You can   Google watch it on YouTube. Google the the video. But   I I actually think we are, man,   in in a sense that   everyone   there are so many competing conversations, and then some conversations are like, oh, Bitcoin Maxis,   uniformity of thought, this and that, but then it's,   there are questions that, like, let's kick kick out commies out of Bitcoin. You know? There are people that are more, like, collectivistically   minded, and   I always   when those conversations start popping up, I always remember, we are all satoshi video.   You you know, that that   like, I'm I'm in that video as well. And whenever I watch that video, I think it's so beautiful   when,   when you see how   we come from all walks of life and, like, all different identities and   people with with,   you know, different values are still unified by Bitcoin. Right. So,   okay.  

Maybe I don't agree with the sailor that we should   assault   Ethereum as a security or whatnot, but, okay, someone has that viewpoint and,   Pierre, Corey.  

[00:22:37] Unknown:

Like, okay, they that's their viewpoint. Bitcoin is for enemies. Doesn't matter. You don't have to agree with all Bitcoiners.  

[00:22:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely.   It's like, okay, we we have that viewpoint   represented.   Like, that's actually what everyone is trying. Like, people are trying for that   diversity.   Well, it's really diversity of thought and viewpoints.   And for Bitcoiners, it comes so effortlessly. It's not even like it's crazy. So but just to go back, I mean, you said  

[00:23:05] Unknown:

that   developers   should prepare accordingly.  

[00:23:11] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:23:14] Unknown:

Are are most   of the good developers in the space prepared accordingly?   And   what should what do they need to do to prepare?  

[00:23:24] Unknown:

Well,   I would say we are actually pretty good prepared. I mean, we're involved with all these.   At this point,   there are grants. There   are VCs. There are investors. Like, we actually have a pretty good network.   So if any of us gets   gets attacked in such a way that,   you know, you need to go to court to prove your innocence. Like, I would think   there would be a fundraiser. There would be a community support,   especially,   like, for myself, I I actually yeah. I don't have any fear.   May maybe some developers that are   not not as popular, but I I still like I look at the I look at Bitcoin Core devs the way they were defended by   Jack Dorsey and,   everyone else, like, represented against Craig Wright. Yeah. That that was great. That was exactly what the doctor ordered. And,   I mean, see, we even have, like, fundraisers.  

We we have, you know, for non developers,  

[00:24:30] Unknown:

and it's a stressful ordeal. But I felt like where you were going with it is that   that you think more developers should take their own privacy seriously.  

[00:24:44] Unknown:

Sure. That's that's a second part of the   of the   of the answer where   but I I want to   really emphasize this first part because   for some of the developers that are super critical   for the ecosystem,   Like, it's it's not like they can   just create a new name Right. And then That'd be so obvious. Yeah. It will be yeah. Look at the code base, and   and there needs to be at least some level   of   of   doxing and trust   in order for collaboration to take part. Like, you can't just accept.   Well,   it takes time to build a reputation   Right. To re If you have a new identity, you have to build the reputation up. You need to build reputation up. You need to build trust with other developers you're collaborating with.  

Otherwise, like, I don't know, there are   rock star developers that can just join project and But you could off. You could also, like,  

[00:25:53] Unknown:

there's, I mean, there's different levels to this shit, right, and different trade offs. I mean, you could do a situation where,   you create a new identity, you create a new NIM,   and   then through trusted channels you already have from rock start from the previous   I'm just talking to you about the outage from the previous identity.   Those connections, if you already have trusted channels there, you tell a few of them,   you know, this is my new   thing. And then the greater world, you have more   insulation from the greater world. It's not perfect, but you also are able to But that's exactly the trust process or whatever. Right? That's exactly  

[00:26:34] Unknown:

what I'm talking about because that still requires certain level of trust because once once those other developers get subpoenaed and dragged into court, it's like, who is this NIB? It's like, oh, that's yeah. Yeah. That's whoever. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. At certain level, you just need to provide environment   in   which collaboration can happen.   One interesting thought that comes to mind is maybe we can have a,   like, coin joint for developers. Like, I I quit my   rockstar dev name, and I just start a new language and new project, and then some other great dev from another project joins PTC pay server. So we can, like, mix developers,   but   yeah, it all seriously And that requires  

[00:27:19] Unknown:

a massive level of trust to it. Well,  

[00:27:22] Unknown:

no. That one actually is way easier because,   like, I've been coding for over 2 decades.   So if I need to learn a new technology, a new project, it will be easier for me to do it. Plus, imagine Bitcoin core developer switching to, I don't know, LND project.   They they can they have easier time. Like, they already have   knowledge, but it   takes some time to develop, but   I think those trading developers between projects can be interesting.   However,   if we wanna go and expand on this, like, developers preparing with their names,   yeah. Definitely. I mean, if there is a if you know   there is a   piece of,   free open source software that you will be contributing in next 3 years   and you haven't started yet, like, it's a great time to come up with NIM that's disconnected from everything.  

And   sure, I mean, you you can   seed it with previous reputation, but   it's best if you avoid it. And   even in in Bitcoin Core, we are lucky to have   a few devs that are, you know, pretty   well set from the privacy standpoint, and, you know, they're not talks.   So,   yeah. We have a lot of those. Yeah. Like, lately,   people are joining. So and   what's the name of,   what's the name   of the dev that was supported by,   spiral?   Z man. Z man. Yeah. Z man. It's got a nim so strong. Notice. Yeah. You can't even, like, remember the nim. It's like Z man. Okay. That was a z plus a bunch of letters and numbers. Hey.   So, yeah, that that's inspiration, and even that   he managed to get a grant on a NIM is  

[00:29:17] Unknown:

yeah. Now they said supposedly that they didn't dox him for that grant,   but one of my concerns   for a while has been,   you know, Spiral is not   a 5 0 1c3 tax deductible,   organization.   Yep.   So,   like,   Square doesn't get or Block   isn't getting a tax deduction for those grants.   It's basically just essentially facilitating their other business and making the Bitcoin network more robust, so it's worth it for them.   So my understanding is they didn't have to dox him to give him that grant.   But   HRF grants   and OpenSats grants,   because they're tax deductible,   you have to have them fill out a tax document because,   otherwise,   you could be getting tax deductible status and just basically taking the money yourself.  

So my concern is is   is privacy developers or developers in general   wanted needing the money so badly that they   they essentially dox themselves,   to the US government and to whatever   501c3   organizations.  

[00:30:31] Unknown:

Yep. It's a valid concern that we we should do something about it. Like, support more of those   grants that are not tax deductible, and   nothing is free. If you want to   support   privacy of devs.  

[00:30:47] Unknown:

Hey.   We also have, bitcoindev list.com   Yep. Where you can donate directly to developers,   with Bitcoin with no middleman.   Awesome. And, also, what's really cool is,   I don't know if you're aware, rock star, but   when freaks,   when Phreaks support dispatch, they also support a bunch of open source projects directly through the streaming stats on podcasting 2 point o.   So, like, when they stream stats, also some go to,   RaspiBlitz,   Zeus,   Robosets.   I know I'm forgetting somebody.   Robosets,   Sparrow,   and seed   signer.   Let's go. Pretty cool.   No middle man.  

Yeah. So   what do you wanna talk about, rock star? I got you next to you. Yeah.  

[00:31:48] Unknown:

I'm reading the comments here. Privacy is as valuable as your freedom.   You have that great hashtag, no privacy, no freedom.  

[00:31:58] Unknown:

No privacy, no freedom, no   no no freedom, no wealth.  

[00:32:03] Unknown:

Oh, there is a good so onto the end now. So now you're connecting it.  

[00:32:09] Unknown:

No. I've why is privacy important, Rockstar?  

[00:32:14] Unknown:

Privacy? Well, we talked at the panel on that one, and   it's important not only for   what we said about, like, security versus convenience. Right? Yeah.   We it's it is important   for structuring   your   daily interactions in such a way that they are sustainable.   And as a developer,   to me, that's so intuitive, and I think it's intuitive to   all of good developers. It's like, when you're building a system,   if you're making everything public,   you just have a crazy mess where everything calls everything, nothing is structured,   everything is mixed. It's it's just   not a good system.  

And,   you also look   at the fact that,   yeah, more wealth you have, the the better privacy you have in your life. You're just not forced   to disclose information   that you otherwise need to disclose. I mean, here in US, it's getting to crazy levels where, like, you you apply for job, you need to   do background checks, Social Security just just to apply for job,   while that doesn't apply to people that are in position of power. So,   yeah,   to me,   it it is a prerequisite   because, otherwise,   if you   are not able to build a system where   privacy   is   respected and afforded to everyone,   it will just be like a terrible system to live in.  

It's   yeah. It's also like another process comes to mind. I don't know. Matt, have you ever coded?   But you know how when you're developing application,   you or, like, debugging applications, so you have access to all the internals of the app. But once app is   done and you need to release it, you compile it and, you know, just make it into a package Right. That now you can't probe the internals of it. Like and you know, okay, have you built a good   app? Have you built a good system? It works. You don't need to poke into every single Right. Line. You just, like, let it run and it does what it was supposed to.   If if you have created a shitty app,   that's where you need to, like, go, okay, now I'm gonna attach   debugger.  

Now I'm going to ship application with all debugging information.   So now my   executable is bloated. My system is bloated. Like, it's logging a bunch of stuff. It's slow.   It takes so much more time. And that's what I'm seeing really with with these   systems is, like,   government essentially issues some kind of regulation,   and it's a regulation to ship executable with more debugging information, you know. Okay. Now everyone at the airport will need to Take your shoes off. Yeah. Scan your   face. Yeah. Like   and and it's like, okay, let's let's do it,   but let's figure out a better way. Let's eliminate the bugs in code. I was like, no no no no no. You know, more logging, more debugging.  

So get a better programmer or   yeah. So Well, I mean, we had  

[00:35:30] Unknown:

I always go back I always go back to RQ's,   the Cypherpunk Manifesto.   Yep. 1993.   Yep.   Privacy is not secrecy. It's the ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world,   to choose what you want to be public   with proper consent for it.   And when I think about no privacy, no freedom,   if you don't have privacy,   then   individuals,   entities   can control you   by using information against you that you didn't want available to them.   So that's why freedom requires privacy.   And the reason I take the next step is mostly for   the pure   so called number go up big corners, which is you   that wealth requires freedom because if you don't have freedom, it's not your wealth. It could just be taken away from you.  

So  

[00:36:31] Unknown:

if you put 2 and 2 together, if you don't have privacy, you can never be wealthy.   Yeah. Well,   if if you don't have privacy,   what happens is   the system becomes stale. Like, those that are already wealthy are in much better position to stay wealthy. It's and   it it's a system that leads into, like, decadence.   It leads to stagnation   because   yeah. I mean, you look at at the world today, it is going in direction of   public by default,   and you see that it's   just producing so much noise, so much unnecessary information   that's not well structured, and it doesn't allow you to   really   as you said, like, I have that saying,   you should control   information. Information shouldn't control you.  

And it is getting to the point where   people are just   overwhelmed with information. It's it's a form of madness, information overload,   and   it it should be obvious   to everyone in society that we just, like, can't keep going on like this   in a sense that   you can't keep triggering people through, like, mass media that is now yeah. This is like  

[00:37:58] Unknown:

Well, I mean, it could go on for a little bit longer,   but at some point, it's all gonna my optimistic take has always been that everyone just   gets burned so hard   that we go back to the basics and people realize the need.   Yeah. What   also, like, I I come from like, different culture where it was much   much more enforced in a sense that   you shouldn't  

[00:38:25] Unknown:

you should you shouldn't, like, publicly   disclose, like, stuff that's awkward or, you know, shameful about you and all that. So it is more towards private part privacy,   you know,   minded   setup. But   what I've also learned is that you do need to let people make mistakes and fail in a sense.   What you're saying maybe, like, burn themself.   Sorry. I think that,   what will happen for most people here is just, like, they will get better at filtering information.   Like, if you want to live a normal life,   hey, you will just get better at filtering information and news. You're gonna find better sources. Well, yeah. You will, like, structure your,   life in such a way that you have higher level of privacy   and that you're able to that allows you to live richer life, that allows you to live life where you're not controlled by information outside.  



[00:39:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the way I look at it is   is for the last   few decades or   many decades,   we've   slowly as a society, particularly in the developed world, in America,   and elsewhere,   we seem to have been groomed as a society to be less and less responsible for our own actions.   There's someone holding your hand. There's someone telling you what you cannot do. There's, you know, so called safety nets. There's all this stuff that that takes away   the individual's personal responsibility.   And getting back to that state   is is is not gonna be an easy process, but, ultimately,   tools like Bitcoin,   tools in the greater open source movement,   they require a a a radical personal responsibility, and for people, that's a massive, like, paradigm shift. Right?  

Yeah. And it comes with failures. It comes with failures. It comes with getting burned. It comes with   learning hard lessons.  

[00:40:27] Unknown:

Yes. It does, but   it's it's a path we   should go down because, yeah,   we're living in a nanny state. Look at that. Covid.   Comments are lit right now. Yeah.   Also,   reading Braj with, like, people in Epstein's book seem to have pretty good privacy to Yeah. Because they're wealthy.  

[00:40:45] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's   the the wealthy have privacy, and that doesn't mean   that you not might not see them you might see them on the cover of Vogue,   but they're selectively revealing themselves. Very selectively, like,   creating a narrative. They don't have secrecy. A lot of them don't have secrecy. Some of them do,   but they have privacy.   And then when I look at the way, like, Bitcoin is unfolding,   like, there's no doubt in my mind that the wealthy will have privacy.   Yeah.   What I'm concerned about is the other 95%.  

[00:41:22] Unknown:

Yeah. More like 99%.   Yeah. Yeah. I am concerned about the same thing. My   my work in in Bitcoin ecosystem is   the way,   you know, table is set right now.   We are going to towards cyberpunk.   It is, like, high technology, low quality of living   where, you know, you have a   small percentage of population that managed to   elevate themselves to that point where it's   just   some segments of population will never catch up.   It it and,   you know, I like high technology, but I don't like, low quality of living for majority of population because   it's it's just  

[00:42:08] Unknown:

yeah. Yeah. So when we look at how to solve that or how to mitigate that or how to prevent that outcome from happening,   It is basically the it's it's the Bitcoin and open source movement. It's it's empowering individuals,  

[00:42:22] Unknown:

using FreedomTech.   Yes. And that's where we now need to, you know, stake our claim and, you know, draw   a line in the sand and then fight for it. Like, you know, this this whole old fact nonsense comes to Bitcoin like, okay. Let's let's figure out how to fight back.   Otherwise,   even for those that that will be, like, fighting us,   it's a worse   future   for most of them. Maybe there is, you know, someone on that other side of the fence that will be better off, that will profit individually.   But for majority of them that are against us, like, it's it's also worse outcome.   Why why would you wanna live in in that kind of future?  

So so yeah.  

[00:43:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think I I think one of the reasons,   you know,   I I do this podcast and I   do a lot of the other things I do in this space is because I I think   the first and foremost reason is that people just aren't aware of a lot of this shit. They're just in   this little ignorant bliss mode,  

[00:43:36] Unknown:

where they're not even thinking about it. Right? Or they're aware of it and are fighting a way to   like, what's   the what's the best way to fight?   And it says, that's why I   that's why I love you, Matt, because you rally the troops   and provide actionable,   did you say, actionable discussions?   Like, how what's what's the next step? Like, your guides on how do you flash your phone   with custom ROMs for Androids.   How do you do this? Like, Because when you also look at my own contribution to Bitcoin ecosystem, it's not that   I had everything figured out on my own. No. I've I've joined Nicholas, and Nicholas was that leader that said, hey. I have I have a mission. The mission is,   obsolete BitPay because they publish bunch of lies.  

Hey. It's easier. Yeah. I'm gonna make you obsolete, and he did.   He did. And but for me, like, looking at at my own thing is is, like, it was great that that I had a clear cause to join, and I didn't need to invent my own cause. So I think that's that's what's happening for most people, and I also see it   I also now see it in in wider, like, career field. Like, I have a lot of   younger developers reaching out and, you know,   saying, okay. How how to best structure   my own contributions   in in next decade?   You know?   And I am so glad for Bitcoin because it's such a rich ecosystem with so many quality developers   and so many quality projects   where   people can   spend really meaningful   time the days. Like, they they they can have meaningful impact. It's not that you're working for Right. Baseless car corporation   on their closed source   CRM   number   1,000,000, like, 50. You know? It's an extremely  

[00:45:37] Unknown:

vibrant,   impactful developer community.  

[00:45:40] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's   it's fun being part of this movement, and and then   thanks to, like, I'm telling you,   diversity within the community.   Like, anything that you're not specializing   for,   hey. There is someone that is, and you can follow their lead.   Like, I   I make a joke to, like, all the new podcasts they're starting is like, why are you doing that? That's just, you know,   podcast and,   the rest of us gonna rally under the banner. We're gonna do, like, small episodes.   But   that's also what's what's good. Like, okay. Try to fork and, you know, if your fork is better, like, okay. Let's go. I mean, it's good that I I think,  

[00:46:25] Unknown:

the Bitcoin content landscape right now is as vibrant as it's ever been.   It's robust. It's vibrant. There's too much there's so much content out there you can't consume at all,   but that's good. People have options.   It's not,  

[00:46:41] Unknown:

Yeah. That's the natural process of replication. That's how it happens.  

[00:46:45] Unknown:

What was what But if you look back even, like, 4 years ago on on both the developer side and on on the content side,   the growth has just been tremendous.  

[00:46:57] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I mean,   I just hope it   it continues.   And,   Rico says, yeah, we're in silent war. We have been losing since Internet was created,  

[00:47:08] Unknown:

but I don't know. I, I I wanted to talk about that because, you know, we we quoted   we quoted the cypherpunk manifesto,   which   was in 1993.   Yep.   So 19 years ago.   Like, perfectly encapsulates everything we're dealing with,   and what the mission forward should be. I mean, it's like the most pressured piece of   fucking text   ever,   and,   I I mean and so that came out of the crypto wars of the nineties.   Do you think   are there   you know, what is the differences between then and now?   I mean, you're an old timer.  

[00:47:54] Unknown:

Yes. So, yeah, have we  

[00:47:57] Unknown:

have   we outperformed   in the last 19 years? Like, are we in a much better place   than than, like, I don't know, like, 1993 rock star would consider   where we could be in the future. Like, are we in a are we doing better than expected, worse than expected?  

[00:48:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   it's it's a good question,   because   what what I read, yeah, Cypherpunk's manifesto, and when I read   mold you know,   like, all the   contributions from Cypherpunks of old,   it is   amazing that they had   that type of foresight   on what is coming up.   And it's, like, clearly described,   like, why it is important that we,   you know, fight   this fight of decentralization.   It's really   super inspiring because,   the   the prediction   is is   amazing. So   as to like what is it better? Is it not? I don't know. I   I miss BBS. Doing good? Yeah. Like, I think we are. I mean, I do miss b you know, BBS. I I miss,   you know, Earth Chats.  

I miss those, like but   I don't know. We  

[00:49:25] Unknown:

Why do you miss them?  

[00:49:27] Unknown:

I I miss them because   there is not so much gamification   and there is no not not, you know, like, so much central control   because,   yeah, we can dislike Twitter as much as we want, but that's the place you go to, you know, discover,   so that your content gets discovered, and it's a gamified system.   It's like a pretty evil  

[00:49:55] Unknown:

Yeah. But evil platform. Right? Yeah. It is. Surveillance and manipulation,  

[00:50:01] Unknown:

censorship. But through all of it, there are some beautiful things happening. It's just okay. Like, we we   we, you know, moved forward a little bit. We moved backwards, but   I I I think we're we are advancing. Now what's important is   yeah. You have, like, TikTok. That that that one will be amazing   battle is because   you will now have   a social media giant that's outside of   US. And First one.  

[00:50:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Really first one. What what do you think about it? Except maybe Telegram.  

[00:50:38] Unknown:

Well,   yeah, Telegram is a good one, but   still, Telegram is controlled by someone who is not in Russia. Right? So the the guy needed to But he's not American.   He's not American, but he needed to, like, leave Russia because his v contact   got,  

[00:50:55] Unknown:

owed by government. Yeah. He had, like, the Russian Facebook,   and, like, the government took it from him. Yeah. Amazing.   Dhruv. But I, Dhirov, I one of my favorite   tinfoil theories is,   it's a Russian operation, and that was just the   the setup.  

[00:51:14] Unknown:

Oh, so that the Like, even Putin had a deal or whatever, and it was like, okay. Just leave the,   Yeah. Stay our agent. Well, maybe. I I don't know. I'm really torn on it because, like,  

[00:51:26] Unknown:

on the surface, I love to rob. I think I mean, Telegram, I wish, was encrypted by default,   but I think it's a very powerful platform, and I think he's done a lot of good things for users,   like, very user friendly policies.   But,   there's also, like, a good chance that he's a,  

[00:51:49] Unknown:

how about we a honeypot for either the US or Russia. Yeah. But how how about we get him? A suitable dispatch, and you could ask him, like, alright. Hey, Dharav, if you're listening right now, the invite's open. Hey. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna like send the message   for you, Matt. So   we will see. Yeah. But then Telegram. Okay? And,   TikTok.   I'm just   to me, it's also, like, quite obvious that it's already used as a weapon in this as, like, TikTok.  

[00:52:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Rico in the comments,   is mentioning Element,   which uses matrix protocol.   It's saying it's super encrypted. It is encrypted. We actually have a matrix chat for dispatch.   If you look on the screen,   that's the other chat that's being shown.   You can get to that by going to dispatch.com   and clipping clicking,   citadel dot chat.   We have over a 1000   a 1000 rider die freaks in there, and, the conversation   is always going. It's always great conversation,   even when,   the show is not live.   But, yeah, TikTok, I mean, is   and it's it's frightening   how, you know, well oiled that machine is on the TikTok side.  

Yeah. We talked here. Really good surveillance, really good manipulation   on that front, really addicting, super addicting.  

[00:53:10] Unknown:

Al, you know, mentioned about the whole of  

[00:53:14] Unknown:

whole capturing video and mics so that they can get your emotions of but watching. Like, did you really laugh   at the video? Yeah. They like watch your facial reactions and listen to your microphone while you're watching videos so they can   Optimize   the algorithm. Yeah. So they can harvest that.   Yeah. But   the social media thing really scares the shit out of me. And, like, I know I have I know I'm a little bit of a hypocrite because of my Twitter usage, but Twitter is my only social media.   When And I try and keep it Bitcoin focused.  

[00:53:49] Unknown:

I   I would so But Twitter is an addiction,  

[00:53:53] Unknown:

and I should not be using it.  

[00:53:56] Unknown:

That But we would have never met. Yeah. That's that's the point because, like, I'm telling you back and forth on it. If there is a Dell TikTok, I'm subscribing to that one definitely.  

[00:54:05] Unknown:

Never TikTok. Never TikTok.   I don't know, man. Like, I I Marty wanted to make a fucking TikTok for   RHR, and I was I was, like, livid. There it was actually on air when I found out everyone can go watch the clip. It's in the archives.   I don't even I was against even having an Instagram. Fuck that shit. And then the argument is always, like, oh,   you can reach more people.  

[00:54:29] Unknown:

Yes. That's the paradox of privacy that we spoke. It's like, if you want to  

[00:54:35] Unknown:

spread the best practices about privacy, you need to be public. But someone else can so, you know, I've already done enough on that front. Someone else can be the TikTok   PTC sessions or whatever. It's like a TikTok, Odell. TikTok sessions.   Okay. Can't wait for for out I, like, reluctantly added the YouTube because the freaks like using the YouTube. So Convenience. Yeah.   But TikTok or Dell. Yeah. Well It'd be hilarious if if there was I mean, I don't know because it's not a TikTok, so there might already be one. But if there was, like, a TikTok influencer that just, like, constantly just tells you to not use TikTok   There we go. But, we're getting derailed a little bit. The social media stuff really scares the shit out of me,   particularly,   you know, I wanna have a family.  

Like, raising kids in this environment   is tricky,   and   I wonder, like, the kind of damage that's gonna happen to the majority of our youth, not my children, but the majority of the youth,   due to the influences of of all the social media shit. Yeah. I mean, we actually spoke about it on workshop yesterday  

[00:55:49] Unknown:

is because that's exactly where the battle is.   Okay. You know,   like, information is destroying your own life and,   keeping you occupied every day with, like, this shit, that   shit.   Okay. You can you can battle,   you know.   You hate yourself the most anyways.   But what about people that are near and dear to you? You don't want them to go through the same thing.   It's like you you don't want to live in a setup where your family,   information from outside  

[00:56:26] Unknown:

is stronger than the information inside. Like, what what So you know what I did that was really good, Hack?   What?   Signal group chats   Yeah.   For family. Yep. And a lot of friends. I got a lot I got a lot of friends on that too.   Yeah. But that's exactly what it's all about. It's a it's a good balance. Because I tell them, like, I know they wanna share baby pictures. I know they wanna share   all these different photos and stuff. I'm like, do not post them on Facebook.   Yeah. You can spam us in the signal chat. Yeah, exactly. But that's  

[00:56:59] Unknown:

practical application of what we are talking about Is that you you get everyone   from from Viber or   stuff like that. Okay. Get get them on to signal, create groups for them. Use Viber. Yeah. They do, man. They do. It's it's just a convenience. Past on that one. Viber's like the walkie talkie one. Right?  

[00:57:18] Unknown:

No.   I mean, it's It's primarily the voice  

[00:57:22] Unknown:

messages. Right? Yeah. Like, it's it's still messages like Yeah. Like, but it's what people use.   Listen, even that one is okay. At least like it's not Facebook messenger.   You tell people like get out of, you know, that shit and you help them. Like, that's practical application where you say, okay. I set up a group for for you.   There is auto deleting messages. Okay. Let's go with baby pictures.   But   that baby would grow would grows up, like, we'll be so thankful that,   okay, grandma has the picture, but it's not like Not  

[00:57:56] Unknown:

millions of servers. Yeah. It's yeah. I mean,  

[00:58:00] Unknown:

imagine that where you're like, you you go to your   school, like your 5th or 6th grade, and, you know, like everyone has pictures of you being, like, for your baby. It's just   crazy. It's that that's your information, that it's piece of you. Like, it shouldn't be under control of everyone.   So   so yeah.   But you,   yeah, you brought up a good point because If there's if there's someone out there  

[00:58:29] Unknown:

listening   and watching this that's at Bitcoin Park right now,   can you bring me a beer? A Pilsner would be great. That'd be fucking awesome. Yeah. That's You want something, rock star? No. I'm I'm good. But Rock star is good. See you. See how you're using the convenience, man, like a blasting the information  

[00:58:49] Unknown:

worldwide   just for a beer.  

[00:58:52] Unknown:

It seemed like a interesting opportunity. I didn't know what to do. Yeah. It is. It that's It's pretty cool because when we go live, usually, people have it on the TVs  

[00:59:02] Unknown:

in the park. So,   Hey. That's that's exactly illustrating our point, but that's I cut you off. What were we talking about? No. No. No.   I was talking exactly about this, and we are now no. We are getting into signal groups, and we're getting into nibs. Signal groups. And we're getting into nibs, and there is a beer. Look at that. Thank you, sir.  

[00:59:24] Unknown:

Okay. That was a really quick turnaround. Appreciate you.  

[00:59:28] Unknown:

And now now that's actually,   recorded   forever.   So whoever was to list it about names and code.  

[00:59:37] Unknown:

10,010,000   sats to the freak   who figures out how much time that took between the   the request and the delivery.  

[00:59:48] Unknown:

Yeah. This is definitely   illustrating our points, but   ready to go into nibs?   Sure.   So   as I talked on the panel for me,   everyone is talking about privacy as as that trade off security convenience.   It is about robustness.   And I have a system where   for every identity you come up with, you need to have 3 NIMs.   So   your your listeners, I guess, freaks, they're they're good with that, but   I always encourage people to at least, like, start with   one name and test out   how that works for them. We have a heavy name listener base.   Yeah. But that's that's how it's supposed to be. I just think that   people invest too much time   into building reputation like one name.  

Like, you need to use names to explore   things that you really want to explore without any breaks, without any,   you know, reservations.   Like, hey,   You know, I really want to see how how, you   know,   I want to experience something. And   that's where, like, I'm I'm really surprised. Like, I think I I always thought everyone had, like, a nim that's, like, sexy girl and invested time into it. Like, did you ever met had that nib?   Did what? A nib when you were a sexy girl. No. But I I do have a funny story with that,   that someone who   went to,  

[01:01:31] Unknown:

after I graduated college   Okay.   Someone from that from my same college I was currently enrolled   to my alma mater,   got interested in Bitcoin,   saw that I was interested in Bitcoin, and, like, reached out to me   to, like, get my advice   on how he should approach his career.   But to get my attention,   he DM'd me from his extremely large NIM account, which was like,   like, classy white girl or something. He had, like, a 1000000 and a half followers.   There we go. And his first message was like, I know this is weird, but I'm a dude, and I go to I go to blah blah school,  

[01:02:11] Unknown:

and I would love to have a coffee with you.   There we go. Like   but, yeah, that but that's actually a big mistake. Like, oh, he felt so insecure that he will not respond, so he needed to use, like, his most powerful bib.  

[01:02:25] Unknown:

Yeah. But listening. Shout out to him. Yeah.  

[01:02:29] Unknown:

Look at that.   That's interesting. But to me, like, you need to explore that, and that builds builds,   your root identity in a sense with   knowledge and, like, better understanding interactions between people.   Plus, yeah, if you have a million,   1,500,000   followers, I mean, you can start your cosmetics line. Like, that's that's an option.  

[01:02:55] Unknown:

He's probably doing that right now. Hey.  

[01:02:57] Unknown:

More power to you. I mean, I I want some royalties, though. I,  

[01:03:02] Unknown:

Reach out to me. Okay? Braj, BRB, installing Bob's.   I don't I'm obviously, like, on the nymph scale, that is more difficult   going cross gender.   Well Right. Like, isn't one of the easy tricks that I've always   done with NIMS is you try and keep some,   it's easier if there's some similarities.   I don't know. I It's easier if there's some consistency, like a bedrock of truth that you can kind of go off of. And, like, there's no bedrock of truth if I was gonna pretend to be   a woman on the Internet. Why why is it? Like, there is a feminine side   view. Yeah. You should see the the face he's giving me as he says this. Yeah. That's why it's important to do him in person. Just he's looking me right in the eye as he says this.  

Yeah. I mean stop trying to seduce me on air.  

[01:03:59] Unknown:

Okay. That's how you read it, but, no, there is, like, feminine   inside of you. And if if if it's not,   that nim would allow will allow you to develop it. Yes, James. Nim means  

[01:04:12] Unknown:

pseudonym.   So like Braj or Rockstar Dev   or James potentially, if that's not your legal name.   Yeah.   Some people choose, like, real   looking   nims, like John Smith or something like that.   And others choose   Rockstar.   Rockstar dev Yeah. With a 0.  

[01:04:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Well,   just Rockstar dev wasn't   available.   There is the whole GTA thing.   So   yeah. But that's why   people think, oh, you need to make a choice. You you you don't. Like, create one name   with,   with name like Rockstar Dev. Create one with John Spit or Matt Hodele. It's a great name.   You know? So,   go for it and see how it will impact your   identity and reputation building it. We actually had that question. If I could do it all over again, would I choose, like Yeah. I asked you that. Would you choose  

[01:05:20] Unknown:

a real looking name? And I I because like everyone knows you weren't born rockstar dev. And, yeah, then I brought up that I could actually change name it. Yeah.   Actually, board Rockstar Dev, but, no, I I wouldn't. I   I I think   You like the   the the flare of of of picking?  

[01:05:41] Unknown:

Yes. And it allowed me to   experience identity that has, like,   kinda   catchy,   you know, nape.   So   it allows me to   explore, be a rock star. Right?   Becoming 1.   It is. No. It's it's really Can you play any instruments?   Well, I'm not that type of a rock star. I'm like party rock star,   which is what what was experienced yesterday.  

[01:06:13] Unknown:

Pretty late last night. Yeah. Yeah. I  

[01:06:19] Unknown:

I, yeah, I I need to get Rod in here to   to   share some of the details. But   to me, yeah, it definitely   developed the rock star persona   inside of me. And, I mean, you even witnessed some media   in that direction   that we were talking about. It's like, yeah, pics and videos that I didn't even know were took, but,   you can be whatever you like. That's the thing. And,   you just need to commit to it, stick with it, and, you know, if it's not working out, okay, move on. If it's working out, you can keep doubling down   until you get to the point where it's obvious that   information is controlling you way more than you are controlling information, and then   it's time for funeral, and you move on. So I have a  

[01:07:10] Unknown:

question   for   you.   A week ago or something like that, I don't even know how to keep track of time anymore.   It all kinda just blends together.   CoinDesk released an article about   the shitcoin devs, these Solana devs.   There's 2 brothers that basically   operated, like, 14 NIMs or something like that, and we're running, you know, like,   a massive amount of the volume of of Solana was just these 2 brothers pretending to be, like, 14 projects.  

[01:07:45] Unknown:

Yeah. And  

[01:07:46] Unknown:

they doxed   they doxed the brothers in the article. They had the brothers, I guess, felt guilty at one point, and they wrote, like, a draft post doxing themselves, but they never published it. And then it got leaked to CoinDesk, and CoinDesk doxed them.   And I posted something   Yeah. Which I stand behind about   about doxing is   is not okay. You can't dox people.   If if you if you believe there's fraud, you can deal with a fraud case separately,  

[01:08:21] Unknown:

but you shouldn't dox people. What is you what is your thoughts on on that situation?   Yeah. You approached   that   problem from the perspective of, like, it's not   okay or moral to   to control someone else's information on, you know, on their behalf.   It's basically   that that's your   that's the lens through which you are looking the problem. But it is a situation where   things are already at the point where you can't have a  

[01:08:53] Unknown:

And when we say docs to the freaks that are confused, we mean they release their real their legal names publicly.  

[01:09:00] Unknown:

Root identities.  

[01:09:01] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:09:02] Unknown:

And, yeah, the the the point is that situation is already,   at state where there can be   a reasonable or quality outcome.   And it it more   the problem is earlier than that. The problem is   Solana  

[01:09:21] Unknown:

that, you know, they need to have this fake traffic. Right. If you can have a if you can have a metric faked, then no one should follow that metric anyway. If a metric can be gamed, you assume it's gamed.   Yes. And then I would also say on but on the other end,   there is   it's definitely valid that, you know, those guys should assume that people are gonna try and dox them and   make it as  

[01:09:46] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's it's just a shitty situation out of which you cannot,   draw out quality conclusions.   It's it's just like   once you're at that point, is it okay? Like, CoinDesk is doing it for   clicks. Yeah. 100% for clicks. These people, like, okay. It's already   you you don't have unified outcome. You just have everyone scrambling for themselves and covering their asses. So what you need to do in situations like that is, like, start looking back in order to draw out, like, quality conclusions. Like, don't   once, yeah,   once you're already knee   deep deep and shit, like, you're not getting out of that situation, like, clean. So   so, yeah, should CoinDesk  

[01:10:33] Unknown:

talk them or, like I mean, they coulda released the whole article, everything they wrote, because the big argument they made was, you know,   protecting the public. You could release the whole article without putting their legal names on it.  

[01:10:45] Unknown:

You could, but,   hey, judgment called. They were like, oh, we they did bad to other people, so we are justified.   We want to hurt them.   And you're like, well, did you really need to do it? Like, yes. I did.   Okay.   What can I tell you? The really, the important thing is   don't get   into a situation to the point where it like, you're not controlling information.  

[01:11:14] Unknown:

Like, okay. Right. Ultimately, it was the brothers It's,   hey. What's   your Responsibility to  

[01:11:21] Unknown:

It it is. Protect that information. It is. And it's like, okay.   We we can talk about   standards or how it should be approached, but, hey, you need to control your information. Otherwise,   you're leaving it up to other people to control it and and arrange it in such a way that benefits them, which is what you're talking about, is it? And   you're also talking about, like, what's more important is, like, it's not only your information, but the information of your family and people near and dear to you.   The the reason why you set up signal group for your, you know, people that are close to you is like, okay. Facebook can't have this information. Yeah.  

[01:12:03] Unknown:

So And it gets really challenging. Right? Because you're you're rely   like, if you have a circle, you're relying on the people in your circle to   make good prac good choices as well.   Yep.  

[01:12:17] Unknown:

Exactly. And and what Rico is now also saying, like, Doxy is putting someone's life on the light.   If if you are really in those situations,   it's like, hey.   You need to have multiple layers of identities   so that,   you just do not allow for those outcomes. You can have have a kill switch.  

[01:12:40] Unknown:

So, you know Do you remember when the Wall Street Journal, like, doxed where the guy   who created coin market cap lived?   No. I actually missed that one. It was pretty fucked up. It was, like, 4 years ago or something like that.   Well 3 years ago. He sold it to Binance since then.   Well, if if you're that guy, it's like, well, I guess I'm moving. They literally took a picture of the building he lived in in New York and put it in the paper. That's yeah. That's, like, okay. I guess I'm moving because They were like, this man did a half a $1,000,000,000 revenue last year or whatever, and here's where he lives. Like, that was like the article. It was fucking insane.  

[01:13:19] Unknown:

But that's exactly where we have, like, privacies necessary   for Open Society Digital Age.   Eric Hughes again. Yeah. 1993.   1993. It's it's like yeah.   It is. Because otherwise,   you will have situations like that where   it's just   nonsense. Like, you have all this media that has   amazing amount of power and can blast amazing amounts of information   in the direction of, you know, various people.   If you do not have privacy, how do you even   structure your life in such a way that,   you know, you can survive those blasts?   Right.  

And   to me, like, I referenced   it, the workshop, like, last   70 years ago. 70 years here in US   where you had mass,   media, like, mainstream media,   blast   crazy   types of information in the direction of people, like,   expressing their own frustrations.   And as a result, like, tears so many families apart on, like, trivial issues really when when you scratch the surface. And it's like, oh, it's not trivial. Like, yes, it is from perspective of that family. Right. It's like they were living their life,   and you just, like, took this   crazy information, just, like, blasted it in their direction,   like, separating them. And then it's   really getting to the point where it's everyday decisions.  

It's like, honey, we should buy Alexa. It's like, no, no, no, like we can't. Like, no, no, no, we need to buy Alexa,   and you suddenly have a conversation that needs to. Your lady bought Alexa?  

[01:15:01] Unknown:

Well Or is it you're speaking figuratively?  

[01:15:03] Unknown:

I'm speaking completely figuratively.   I yeah.   But,   yeah, that's that's also the point is like Fucking Alexis, man.  

[01:15:12] Unknown:

It's  

[01:15:13] Unknown:

it's then 30 minute conversation that you need to have. Alexis. Turn off the lights.   No. My favorite one is with Alexa is is when you go to like I had I had this situation like in 1 household   where like   child started crying, like, was upset, didn't get candy, and it was like Alexa was like, hey. How can I help?   You know? Like, do you need do you need 911? He's like, what's going on? I was like, okay. Now you need to explain to Alexa, like, what is happening. So It's just amazing that we're in a world where, like, people just install wiretaps in their house for convenience.  

[01:15:46] Unknown:

Literally an always on listening device that pipes right into a surveillance company's servers. Hey. It's it's a more interesting world, but the whole point is, like,  

[01:15:56] Unknown:

now   now you have another point through which you need you need to feed information.   Like, now you need to explain to your Alexa,   like, why why there was a kid crying.   With government going in the file. Yeah. That's going in the file. I know, like, government needs to process it. Like, why The really bad one recently  

[01:16:18] Unknown:

is   because, like, look. If people want to just put if people wanna put wire taps in their house,   I'm not gonna go into their house.   So A good one with that. It doesn't affect me as much.   But the Ring cameras   that people are putting, the Amazon surveillance cameras on their front door. So convenient. And you're walking down the street, and you walk past, like, 10 of them on your, like, morning walk or something. Yeah. You're captured.   It's it's so fucked, and they spread so quickly. They're everywhere.   They gave they gave there was 11 times this year. It just came out 11 times this year. They gave footage to police without warrants because you're not protected by the 4th Amendment because Amazon has possession of the video. It's not your video. It's Amazon's.  

So it's not warrantless search and seizure.  

[01:17:08] Unknown:

Well, that's where we need to improve free open source   software and provide a stack where people are hosting. You know? Like, okay. I'm hosting my own videos. I'm in control. So it is protected under 4. It's funny because that's how all the video cameras used to work.  

[01:17:24] Unknown:

Yeah. We used to have, like,   a server on on premise that that would hold all the video.  

[01:17:31] Unknown:

Yeah. And this That's what we have at the park. The yeah. But we've come full circle. It's like It's more convenient,   and if you see, like, even people like to say got docs by Casa today. Oh, did you see the Casa docs today? Yeah. It's and it's terrible because okay. It's, like bad. It was a pain. Means addresses.   Hey. It's   it's how it is, and you have all these regulations   that that are like, oh, you should   like, in their case, was it EVA? Like, were they required to to send that, or they were just It was using it as a hardback?  

[01:18:06] Unknown:

It was their store where they sold, like, hardware wallets and Faraday Faraday bags and stuff. So it wasn't   all of their users. It was anyone who bought   items on their store.   And they used a 3rd part third party payment processor,   and   as a result, that 3rd party payment processor,   got compromised.   Well,   that's that's how it goes. I   What was the list? The list is crazy. Names, emails, phone numbers, shipping and billing addresses, and products ordered.  

[01:18:43] Unknown:

That's why we're talking about privacy and creating systems where all that information okay.   And, again, Cypherpunk's manifesto where it's like, if I if I wanna buy a magazine,   I will give you a,   you know, cash and give me back magazine. Like, you don't need to know everything about my history to, like, complete this transaction.   And once transaction is completed,   like, that piece of information needs to okay. It's, like, 1 month   and delete it.   Because if we do not   really come together and build systems like that,   it will be chaos. It's it's a society in which, like, yeah, you don't wanna live because what you're mentioning with ring cameras, it is funny. Like, someone gets access to all those videos, like,   in real time, which is quite possible.  

You can identify exactly, hey. This person is here. This person is there. Yeah. So, I mean, there was like this there was,  

[01:19:43] Unknown:

I think a book was written with the title, and then it became almost like a   a very common saying or meme, which is, you know, data is the new oil,   because all these different companies basically monetize data. This it was like the this new web   business model, which was surveil your users,   get us collect as much data on them as possible, and then use that data to monetize the users and manipulate them to increase our revenue even more.   But the way I've always looked at data is that it's this massive liability, and we have Raj saying that in the comments,   where it's it's the opposite of oil. Oil is a profitable thing that you have.  

To me, data is almost toxic as a company. You wanna have as little data as possible on your users because it makes   it makes it more secure for everybody, and it reduces your own legal liability in that situation or moral liability.   And I wonder   if we will see a pivot there, if we will see a situation where because we already see it in the   we see it a lot in the Bitcoin ecosystem where   projects try and limit the amount of data they have on their users intentionally.   You don't really see it as much in the wider   world, but to sometimes, you see it. Yeah. Like, Signal, I think Signal would be a good example. Right? Signal has   it tries   to hold as little data as possible on their users.  

Yeah. And  

[01:21:17] Unknown:

it's it's really about understanding   how much information you can control   because information wants to be free.   And   if you   you try   to keep information contained in such a way to, like, facilitate a robust system.   But if you   throw too much information at the system and get to the point where   information can be processed.   Like, that's where all the problems are happening.   And I am glad   that   there is, yeah, that moment, the realization of, like, we actually don't want to hold   the user's information, which is also the decision in BTC based server project. It's like you saw a privacy policy of, BTC based server. Was it just Doria's face?   Yeah. Kinda. It's like, yeah. That's like the 404. Right? Or whatever. Yeah. It's 404, but privacy policy, like, we don't collect that information by. Like, that that's the privacy policy. Seen that. So   that's   and the thing is also That's beautiful. It is, but that's as a developer you want to contribute to, like, system like that. You don't want to be   contributing to a system where, like, okay,  

[01:22:36] Unknown:

this is my weekly meeting with lawyers. Let's go over some updates. You must feel a battle there because you contribute to both. Uh-oh. I, I do. You have a strike in BTCPay.  

[01:22:46] Unknown:

I   yeah.   Let's not even get into the subject, like, how much more time we have or it will be, like, 4 hour episode.   But my point there is what? I said we've done it before. Yeah. But my point there is, this is also where our discussion about nibs is is so important. It's because,   hey, that root identity of yours that you, like okay. You you you don't you don't wanna change it. Like, okay. You don't wanna change name. You can change address, but, okay, you don't wanna change name. Hey. Don't use that identity for anything.   Like, just   just take,   at least   an effort to come up with different first name, last name if you're still ordering to that mailing address.  

And   then you will at least have that level of disconnect. Like, okay, it's it's not tied to,   your other information. It won't be as easy to tie.   Or,   can get traveling mailbox, like, get get those forwarding services,   especially if you're ordering   something that's related to,   you know, in this case, like, money, Bitcoin.   Because if you don't   yeah.   It it it is a it is a problem that's that's festering. And then also   companies in this space, like, there are, like, companies in bit Bitcoin space, like, okay. Let's   let's make an effort to go towards   deletion of data.  

Like, did you really need to have that data   on the service for a year?  

[01:24:28] Unknown:

Right.   So let's That's what we see. I mean, NVK does that with CoinKite.   Yeah. Amazing. They do auto deletes, I think, 90 days.  

[01:24:38] Unknown:

Perfect. Let's let's  

[01:24:40] Unknown:

start piloting the point where is it? Hey. I mean, we've seen so many data leaks, especially recently.   I mean, Swan got hit this week as well.   Cool.   It was the second time Swan has gotten hit in a couple months, I think.   Unchained had been hit previously.   A lot of the crypto services. BlockFi got hit really hard.  

[01:25:05] Unknown:

Yeah.   So  

[01:25:08] Unknown:

That's what I'm telling you about is that And one of the reoccurring things that you see is is not only, okay, so reduce the information you collect,   reduce the amount of time you hold it for to the bare minimum, sometimes regulations and stuff require you to hold things,   But then the third thing is reduce your reliance on trusted third parties as an organization. So, like, everyone in Bitcoin pretty much   coalesces around, you know, Nick Szabo and and trusted trusted third parties or security holes,   but there's there's, like, a disconnect there as soon as you get to the company because then the companies all are using their own trusted third parties. So not only are you trusting the company, but then you're trusting it's like a Russian doll thing.  

There's trusted third parties all the way fucking down. Yeah, because regulation requires it. There are companies that specialize. But there's some there's some there's some businesses where it doesn't. So, like, Ledger's third party marketing   email service, whatever, got compromised, and that's how the 1000000 Ledger users got docs. Yeah.   There was no regulation that required them to use that trusted third party. NVK does all of his marketing in house.   Right? It was just treated with a lack of regard.  

[01:26:22] Unknown:

It it is what is happening in wider society because what that convenience factor you're mentioning,   it allows you to get ahead.   Because you're using that service, and now you don't need to actually spend time building robust service. But it's all trade off, so cost benefit. But it goes back to what we are talking about NIMS. Is it   would it be great that others   treat your information   and, you know, your identity with respect? Like, yes, it is. But at the end of the day, it's like it's it's up to you. And it's   positioning yourself,   and putting yourself in situation where, okay,   something happens,   it's not catastrophic   loss. It's basically,   yeah, what can you do?  

So that's like, I'm telling you, this this whole thing also with Rockstar,   I I don't need to die tomorrow,   but   my identity and and my, you know,   the way that I structure interactions with the world, Like, it will be much better if I die tomorrow than in, like, 2 years. What do you aim to get out of ending the SNIM?   Control of information. Like, Rockstar persona is already   at the point where   so much stuff is happening that's, you know, beyond my control.   And it's not obvious because it didn't bubble up to the level of, you know, public discourse.   But, you know, like, DMs that I'm getting, like,   pictures of me, that type of stuff is it's just like   Time for a fresh start. It is time for a fresh start, and   it's it's it's also like, I'm telling you, it's it's good to have those closures,   because   Rockstar persona takes a lot of time.  



[01:28:13] Unknown:

I mean, you know, like preparing this funeral, like I mean, obviously, there's a trade off here. Right? That if you had   just   if you just stopped   interacting with the world from the rock star identity   and cycle to a new identity   and didn't,   you know,   host a funeral   at   publicly   and talk about it publicly, it would have been an ease it'd it'd be easier to do it. Right? Like, you're definitely,  

[01:28:45] Unknown:

yes, but it would So what do you aim to achieve by making it   a public thing?   Inspire others. Like give a blueprint.   Get people thinking about, hey, you know, can do the same.   Like, experience it as well. I mean, I,   yeah, you could, like, have just, like I could just stop responding to your messages and, like, what happened? Right? Yeah. But   it's   it's nice to have this kind of closure,   right, with with you joining tomorrow and, like, Rivera and Zuko and   see,   there is a reason why funerals exist.   So to me, it's it's also yeah. It's it's that closure, and it's it is okay. There there is a selfish component as well, like me experiencing that.   So when time comes for my root identity, I will be better prepared. Right?  



[01:29:41] Unknown:

I But when you actually die? Well, yeah. Like, well, you.  

[01:29:45] Unknown:

My root identity, when when it dies, yeah,  

[01:29:49] Unknown:

it will be better prepared. I feel like you should we should, like, lock you in a closet or something while we're doing the funeral because, like, people shouldn't be able to observe their own funeral.   It seems like it's unfair.   Why? We like, we have this see this producer's closet here? It's completely soundproof.   Like, not only can you not hear anything outside, but, like, no one would even hear you scream in there.  

[01:30:15] Unknown:

So so you gotta lock me up there with Lock me in there, do the funeral,  

[01:30:20] Unknown:

and then you can come out as a new a new identity.   And, I mean, you didn't know who Rockstar was because you were just born   tomorrow.   So, like, you didn't miss anything.   You just fucking died. So I'm I'm not, like, even listening to the funeral as it's time. No. You can never listen to it. No one's ever able to listen to their own funeral.  

[01:30:41] Unknown:

Now this is how old you wanted to be in control.   Or or eulogy, like, absolutely sucks, so you don't want to hear it.  

[01:30:50] Unknown:

Usually, you don't have the pressure of the person who's dying getting hearing the eulogy. Right?  

[01:30:55] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well,   sorry, Matt. You gotta do this for me. And, well,   I could you could just roast him, Rico is saying. Well, that's why Zuko is there. Like, if anyone can roast other people, it's him. It is nice that that it's  

[01:31:10] Unknown:

it's probably it's usually not cute to roast someone   at their funeral, but,  

[01:31:16] Unknown:

no. You should absolutely roast them. Than it is. That that's exactly what it's all about is, like, you should do as much remembrance   of crazy moment as you can. Like,   you you and I like those moments that   you remember. Like, okay. Yeah. We'll talk about them.   Then with Zuko oh, fuck. With Zuko, actually, I'm not sure he can share some of the moments, like, some of the best moments because,   yeah, they were tricky. But, Lavera, oh, same thing.   But Lavera's gonna sing? Yeah. He will. I mean, you you heard it today. Like, it's pretty good. Right?   Why are you laughing? It was pretty good. It was it was pretty good. Yes.  

And, you know, like, look at the fact that   you're like, oh, you're doing this funeral funeral. Like, what's the point? Now with Rivera,   listeners of of dispatch can know, like, he will sing American Funeral American Funeral, American Anthem.   So imagine the gift to the world was spangled banner. Yeah. Like,   how how Rivera said it. He's like You know, we don't, like, do that at funerals. Right?  

[01:32:27] Unknown:

Why not? Is that, like, the stereotypical American funeral? Is that what you think? Yeah. It should be. Yeah. B is immigrant like that. Some of them, they do, but  

[01:32:35] Unknown:

Hey.   I would I like yeah. I will be, like,   even press f to pay respect. That will be the the whole deal.   But now with Rivera, he said it well. Like, so he's,   yeah, whatever. That bold, shiny head singing. Oh my god.   See? Like, it's already becoming a meme. Probably just, like, blindly read you just, like, blindly read the comment. Hey. I needed to read this comment,   but it's not boldy,   bold, shiny head. It's absolutely polished podcast. Like,   we love   the Aussies. We love Lavera. So   grateful for that. Yeah. It'd be a good time. I mean, we have we have a lot of people come in just for it, which is cool.   It is. And, again,  

[01:33:20] Unknown:

if it inspires You have 2 people in the studio who came in just for it. Yeah. They're like They're saddened for the conversation.  

[01:33:27] Unknown:

Live listening, but if it inspires at least one more funeral, like, I would be   I would be happy. And,   then we can start iterating on nibs. And Gigi also tweeted well, like, 1 dies, 21 rise.   You know? When   the rock star is dead and there is, like, a need to contribute more in the space, like, some other developers are gonna step up. I know it. So   need to free up the space.  

[01:34:00] Unknown:

Are you ever gonna come on dispatch again on your new identity?  

[01:34:04] Unknown:

Well, I don't let's first get you Durov. Right? And then  

[01:34:10] Unknown:

if I come, I'd also need to set up the voice synthesis as well. Are you concerned about the voice? Because your voice is pretty doxed on this identity.  

[01:34:18] Unknown:

Yeah.   I,   if I'm ever public on another identity, it will need to be a voice   synthesis because   I kept telling you, may maybe it's my professional   the the deformity,   but   I I love   well structured systems   as as, like, engineer.   And   I   I really want to, like,   stop the spillover, and I want to   wrap up Rockstar identity and, like, okay. It's closure because every idiot can start a thing.   It's hard to, like, finish a thing. So   so, yeah, if if there is a public identity, I definitely need to do voice synthesis.   I'm ready for,   online podcasts, so you like most people saw my setup, usual, with Right. Body burning into the background, and you have voice instances easily.  

But for this, like, in person setups, I kinda need to figure something out.  

[01:35:25] Unknown:

There should be something you can just   like, I have this mixer that I'm looking at right here. It's gotta be something you can do with it.   Well, first, yeah, let me die. Rest in peace a little bit. Figure it out. First, we have to make the funeral happen.   We will.  

[01:35:41] Unknown:

It will be amazing tomorrow, and,  

[01:35:43] Unknown:

yeah. Rockstar, it's been an honor and a pleasure. This has been a fantastic conversation.  

[01:35:50] Unknown:

Well, we didn't spend too much time this time.   Yeah.   Being, how how did you call it last one? Therapy.  

[01:35:59] Unknown:

Last time was a was an Odell therapy session. I appreciated it. Oh, yeah. I'm in a better place now. Yeah. But now it's actually Now I think I need to review therapy. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what friends are for. Right? We got As long as we don't both need it at the same time, then we're good.   Yeah.   Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap up?  

[01:36:21] Unknown:

I do. I wanna say I love you, man.   So you were right. I was hitting on you. And   the reason why I'm I'm doing it is just, like,   when I'm gone, like, keep inspiring people. Like, I know it's not easy. I know   we're draining you with all the demands and, like, Matt, like, moderate this panel. Matt, organize this open state open source stage.   But, hey, man.   Who else   if not you? So   you should also consider starting uncle program.   Like,   get nephew. See? I have my nephew here in studio.   It helps out.   So whatever you struggle, Matt, remember this, and,   keep pushing on until you decide to die.  



[01:37:13] Unknown:

I appreciate you, brother.   The feeling is mutual.   Yeah. Heck of a rip. A heck of you know, shout out to Rockstar, man.   It's been a good run.   It has. It's both beautiful and horrible to see it ending,   but I'm glad to be a part of it.  

[01:37:34] Unknown:

Oh, man. What's the I remember when you were just a little rock star. Tidy. The little tyke  

[01:37:42] Unknown:

arguing arguing about shitcoin support.  

[01:37:46] Unknown:

Well, that got me a brother that will carry on in my name as well. But it's it's been a true pleasure.  

[01:37:55] Unknown:

Well, thank you, my dude,   for joining us.   Always good having you in town. Always good kicking it. I hope,   whoever you become   visits us in Nashville very often, and,   hope hopefully, we we have many good times in the future   with whoever the new  

[01:38:17] Unknown:

No. No. No. I will always be a rock star to you.  

[01:38:22] Unknown:

I wanna thank all the freaks who joined us,   today.   It's been a been a great day. It's gonna we have some great plans tonight, so it should be a lot of fun. I hope you all have good plans,   spend time with friends and family this weekend.   As always, you know, I skipped the intro this for this one because we did a doubleheader,   but I really do appreciate all you who join us in the live chat, whether that's on   Twitter, Twitch,   YouTube, or in Matrix.   Appreciate you all who subscribe to the show and share with your friends and family,   and I especially appreciate y'all who   continue to support the show, whether that's through podcasting 2 point o,   or the BTC pay server instance   at dispatch.com   or the pay   name, appreciate it. I really do.  

Usually, I read the top 4 boosts from the previous   episode,   but the previous rip was with Sid   about 5 hours ago.   The amazing thing is   there's already more than 4 freaks who have submitted boostergrams.   We have Blockchain Boog,   5,000 sats saying time to go to a meetup. What an inspiration. And then we have   Tron Sington,   a 100 100 sats, no message. Boshko, 50 sats, no message. And f dub 7, 50 sats, no message. And Slim Shady, 50 sats, no message.   Appreciate all you freaks.   If you haven't listened to the other 2 pods I dispatches we ripped, this week, consider going back and listening to them at your leisure.   I am well aware that I am doing these   in kind of a crazy schedule, but the way I look at it is I could hold on to them myself and curate it for you   and decide when you get to listen to them, or I could drop them all on you at when they record it because I love these live shows, and you can listen to them or watch them at your leisure, whether that's on Bitcoin TV or   Telegram or your podcast app. So   gotta just practice some of that personal responsibility we like to talk about all the time. Rockstar, it's been a pleasure.  

It's been a pleasure, Matt.   Cheers to you.   Stay humble, StackSats freaks.   Peace.