Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 69

BLOCK: 743883

PRICE: 4918 sats per dollar

TOPICS: decentralized identifiers, credentials, tradeoffs, "web5" proposal, lightning privacy work, unannounced channels, probing, the next week of dispatch is loaded

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[00:00:33] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks.   It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.   Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech   coming from you live from the studio with a repeat guest here. Very excited. But before we get to that, I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show using podcasting 2 point o apps   and our BTC pay server located at sill dispatch.com.   Sill dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsored,   focused purely on actual discussion. That would not be possible without you.   When it comes to the podcasting 2 point o apps, my two favorites are Fountain Podcasts   and Breeze Wallet.  

You simply   load it up with some sats,   search it'll dispatch, press the subscribe button, choose how many sats you want to stream to the show.   And then as   stats per minute, you wanna stream to the show. And then as you listen,   it will stream stats directly to my note.   Just a little warning. If you use Fountain Podcast, it is a custodial wallet, so do not load it with   too much money   because you have to trust them. Well, actually, you trust lnpay.co,   which is the custodial pry provider they use.   The show is also supported using a feature called boosts. Boost   allow you to well, Boostagrams   allow you to send a   onetime payment and include a message with it. As always, I will be reading the top boost from the previous episode,   to shout out the freaks who continue to support us.  

Since last episode,   I have changed   the set split   on the show. So   you were already supporting   dispatch, and you're already supporting open source development through OpenSats.   But now, also, direct funding will go to the no bullshit Bitcoin audience funded news desk, the raspipe blitz dev fund, the robo sats dev fund, the seed signer dev fund,   the Zeus lightning wallet dev fund, and podcast index.org.   So when you support dispatch, you don't only keep this show ad free and sponsor free, but you also directly support other community   funded Bitcoin projects, which is pretty cool. It's kind of almost like a reverse sponsorship.  

So I'm pretty excited about that. I've been told by the various podcasting 2.0 teams   that I've had   I'm pushing the splits   to their limit. It is the most splits for a podcasting 2.0 podcast.   And as a result,   they told me the boost might be slower, but I like pushing the limits. So we will see how it goes. You freaks test out the boost, and we'll reassess next week if I have to remove some projects. But I'd actually like to add some projects, so, hopefully, that's not the case.   Let's get to reading the top boost.   We have the highest boost dispatch has ever gotten from athut.  

He says, internal gratitude, Matt.   Can't tell you the impact you've had.   Much love to you. Stay humble. If you make it to Vancouver Island, I have a bottle of whiskey with your name on that.   That also goes to all plebs listening. Shout out to Hut for 210,000   sats.   We have our boy, Chad Farrow, who gave 10,000 sats without a message. I think he was testing out if the splits worked, and they did.   We have CA Danner saying,   MBK is never boring.   She's awesome. She's actually got some artwork in Bitcoin Park, that we have up on display and available for sale, which is pretty cool.   We also have Roughneck Miner coming in at 10,000 sats. Always great signal coming from the dispatch. If you're ever in North Dakota, hit me up. I'd be happy to host you and any others you bring to all the ND Bitcoiners. Let's get a meet up going.  

So those are some of the top boostograms.   What's pretty cool is if you open fountain podcasts   or other podcasting 2 point o apps, you can see all the boostograms yourself,   in their entirety.   Also, huge shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat, both on Matrix and through Twitter   and Twitch.   I know I told you, Freaks,   that I heard from a lot of you that you wanted a YouTube stream.   I did attempt   to upload all the the whole archive of Ciel dispatch and start streaming onto YouTube as well to give you that option,   but they banned my account saying that it promoted scams, spams,   and deceptive content.  

So don't hold your breath on that one. I did press that appeal button, but they can go fuck themselves.   You can obviously watch the show on Twitch, as I said, bitcoin tv.com.   I'm also posting the archives to Rumble and Telegram,   and you can listen in any podcasting app. My favorite that's not podcasting 2.0 is antennapod by just searching   CITIL dispatch   in that app. If you do not have stats to spare, it does help the show if you press the subscribe button, leave a review. Thank you. I do appreciate it.   Okay. With all that out of the way, I know it's a little bit slower this time, but we've been having a fun day here at Bitcoin Park,   so my mind is a little bit all over the place.  

We have good friend, ride or die freak, and repeat guest, Tony here in the studio. How's it going, Tony? Let's fucking go.  

[00:05:59] Unknown:

I'm really great. This is   kind of incredible what you guys have got here. You know, I was in Nashville, I guess, last,   4 or 5 months ago.   You guys had a solid operation. I was impressed even back then. And,   yeah, let me just say this is pretty amazing.  

[00:06:18] Unknown:

While Tony is in here, he's also looking at one of the other cofounders of Bitcoin Park, Rod. If you heard   a door close and chairs moving, that was Rod being extremely loud as we started the podcast. That's also why I was a little bit distracted.   This room is extremely soundproofed, but it does not account for Rod entering   while we are starting the recording.  

[00:06:42] Unknown:

Hello, Rod.  

[00:06:45] Unknown:

Anyway, guys, so what are we gonna talk about today? We're gonna talk about decentralized identifiers, formerly called, often called DIDs. We're gonna talk about this concept of Web 5 that was proposed by Block,   formerly Square, and we're gonna talk about lightning privacy. Tony was actually on the show   for dispatch   21. I think we we spent over 2 hours specifically on Lightning Privacy. So if you haven't listened to that, consider listening to that after this dispatch.   Tony has the honor of having both episode 21 69.   Completely coincidence too. I did not plan this. And you have a couple others. There was one, that I just   shield today that was 57, which was the crowdfunding one, which I thought was really good. Yeah. I met, Sat Sail in Austin for a hackathon,  

[00:07:32] Unknown:

like, 2 weeks ago.   We just randomly stumbled into each other. I was like, hey. You were Tony on Citadel Dispatch. Right? We had never met each other in in person. He's I still haven't met him yet. He was, like, locked in Australia for a while. Apparently, he got out and made it to Austin.   So it was kinda beautiful to be, like, wow. Okay.   You know, I I don't get the honor of having, you know, so many podcasts. So, like, every now and then,   someone will come up to me. It's kinda surreal. They'll be, like, yeah. You're you're Tony. Right? You're you're on Citadel Dispatch Let's fucking go. All the time.   And it's kind of an honor. It's kinda crazy to see, like, especially on the topic of privacy. You probably get this way more,   and quite often, but, like, just normal people that care about privacy coming up to you and saying thank you for your work and privacy.  



[00:08:16] Unknown:

It's surreal, honestly. It makes it all worth it. Yep.   Especially since when you publicly talk about privacy, you hurt your own privacy.  

[00:08:23] Unknown:

Yeah, exactly.   It's not easy. It's like the privacy paradox, right? Like, the more you know, you have to lose and the information you leak out, but then you're still doing it anyways. It's like this, paradox inside your head,   kind of fucks with you a little bit sometimes.  

[00:08:38] Unknown:

100%.   So just to the freaks, I mean, I know we're all still getting used to me deviating   from the usual dispatch schedule rather than every Tuesday. We are doing,   whenever I have good guests that are in person in the studio because I like the in person rips.   We actually have a massive meetup.   Looks like over 200 people are gonna be here next week,   including a huge contingent from the Austin side.   So just you know,   I don't know if you wanna use Twitch. I don't really wanna tell you to get a Twitch account. It is controlled by Amazon.   But if you join our matrix channel, which you can go to at citildispatch.com,   and click the chat button. I will notify people when we go live,   try and give you some heads up,   but there's gonna be a lot of fucking rips over the next   week and a half because so many people are gonna be in town. It's just gonna kinda be nonstop. I'm gonna overload you.  

And then there might be a little bit of a break after that because I'm going to Colorado for the beef initiative to do   to help ranchers learn how to use Bitcoin and for them to help me become a wannabe rancher.   So I'm pretty excited about that. I think I will have a mobile recording set up, so there might be some seal dispatches during that. But just, anyway, I just wanna give you a heads up that there's gonna be a bunch of dispatches. Go through them at your leisure in your favorite podcasting app. Join us in the live chat. However you wanna do that, you do that.   Okay. So with all that said, Tony   and, also, I imagine Tony is gonna pee on a lot of those too, so get used to his voice.  

Tony, so decentralized identifiers,   DIDs,   they get a lot of hype.   I know you're pretty bullish on them. You wanna you wanna give us your best shill? Why should we care? Yeah.  

[00:10:31] Unknown:

You know, I'll I'll say right ahead.   You know, this this isn't exactly the hill I wanna die on on decentralized identifiers. He's dying on this hill. I'm dying on this hill right now. But,   honestly, like, I see it more as a means to an end.   As as far as, like, progressing   towards a more decentralized web, a real decentralized web, none of that crypto bullshit.   I don't, like, quite care exactly how we get there and exactly how it looks like. I know there's a lot of different options, a lot of different proposals, some competing, some not.   But all that said, I do I am pretty bullish on decentralized identifiers, and I think,   you know, there's some trade offs. But I think all in all,  

[00:11:14] Unknown:

there's a Diz get a lot of hate too because they You did get a lot of hate? They get a lot of hate. I thought I was the only one that I'm a I'm a little bit skeptical. No.  

[00:11:23] Unknown:

I I see a lot, and the common thing I always hear is the fact that they think the government's gonna have, like, a new world order and, like, dudes are gonna be You see it. Identities and This is the problem. Like, I had a very long, great conversation with Tony the other day, and he's just preempting  

[00:11:38] Unknown:

my talking points. But, anyway, continue.  

[00:11:41] Unknown:

No. I mean, that's like the number one thing I hear, and it's it's honestly like valid points. But I guess, yeah, I guess we are jumping into some of the weeds there in in Yeah. Give us the basic shit. Why should people care? You should care. What the fucker did? Yeah. So their own your their your own identity.   No one controls them. No one   except for you. No one else controls them.   That'd be pretty bad if you didn't control them. Yeah. You just there's a bunch of IDs out there. You don't even you can't even touch them.   Only you control them.  

They allow you to   interact with other decentralized identities as well.   You can spin up a whole bunch of decentralized entities too, so it's not like your own, like, single,   digital identity that, like, tracks you and, you know, you have to use 1 did to sign in to every services. So it's, there are some privacy benefits to using decentralized identifiers at its core.   It's not just like one big surveillance network and one big, you know, ID tracking system.   But really it's just for being able to coordinate with other other people that have DIDs, be able to chat with them, communication,   access their services that they may offer.  

And you can have a whole array of self sovereign identity stacks, like, on your own Raspberry Pi. You can have it redundantly also in various clouds too. Like, I mean, you stream to both,   Bitcoin TV,   and and and YouTube and and other Not to YouTube. Not to YouTube right now. Yeah. Twitch, Twitter, bitcoin tv.com.   Exactly. And you do that so in case one goes down or one gets censored, you have backups. Right? Well, the whole that concept can also apply to dits as well.   So I consider it more of just like, you know, represents a person, but it doesn't,   you know, that's not the whole picture. You can spin up a whole bunch of identities, and you'll you control them all, and no one no one can take that away from you. So I guess if we're gonna talk about DIDs, which  

[00:13:40] Unknown:

I mean, their IDs. So we should start with   what are what is our current ID process? Right. Right?   Which is   we are we literally you go to your local government,   and you get permission from them, and they give you this document usually in the form of a card.   And   you, you know, you have to go through whatever identity procedures they require from you.   They take a picture of you. They put it on the card, yadayada yada.   So   when you have those IDs,   then you try and interact with digital services.   And they   if they require ID verification, they do   the standard KYC procedure that a lot of Bitcoiners   have turned a blind eye on but have gotten used to, which is, you know, upload your your passport or your driver's license,   maybe take a selfie,   put in your address, your email, your phone number, Social Security number,   firstborn child's blood type.  

You gotta go through that whole procedure, and then they do their own, like, fraud thing on the side   to try and prove that that's actually you because there's there is a shit ton of fraud that fakes the KYC system, or they use stolen credentials, or they use bought credentials. People don't realize there's, like, marketplaces where you can just buy ID information for these KYC services or already KYC'd accounts.   So with with digital IDs, the promise is   a more open system   or decentralized identities   in general. But I I guess, I like calling them digital IDs, but I guess it's not as,  

[00:15:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Because digital IDs can mean that Centralized. It's it's centralized. Right? Like, it's the government's database of an ID for you. Right. So at at its core,  

[00:15:27] Unknown:

decentralized ID is   I like to think of it as, like, a public key, private key pair similar to your Bitcoin keys,   that you and only you control   that can be cryptographically verified,   like ownership of a Bitcoin key can without giving up control of it. So it can be instantly proven that you actually have control of this ID.   And then   the way I understand the main proposal for it, which is coming out   of block now, formerly Square, but previously   at Microsoft during their ion project because   the lead dev CSU Wildcat went from Microsoft to Block, but I guess there's a bit of a partnership there,   is so you then you have that base layer   decentralized   ID,   and then different participants   can sign   proof from their own ID   that   you are who you say you are or   a different information about you. Right? So they can,   and that could be Tony signing mine saying, like, Matt's a good dude, or that could be the New York government saying, Matt's a resident of New York,   or that could be Facebook saying,   Matt's a Facebook user, and this is an account.  

Or it could be   any type of service.   Airbnb could say, you know, Matt has rented this many Airbnbs,   and he's always been great or whatever.   And different services can choose   how much weight they put for those different identifier,   different  

[00:17:10] Unknown:

signatures. Is that would you agree with that? Yeah. And a large part of of what you described too is,   even a separate system in in and of itself.   All of the stuff around this person says this thing about another person,   all of that is along the lines of verifiable credentials.   That's actually how I got my start in the Bitcoin space back in 2018.   Joining some of these w three communities   and   working at a company where that was our bread and butter just to verify what credential aspect. And it and it really is. It's it's not you don't need deeds   for verifiable credentials, so that's why it came out first.  

There's been previous,   you know, ID system, like like Open Badges and and a few others that are you know, could be centralized or not.   Verifiable credentials in and of itself are not opinionated about   what kind of ID you use to represent a person. So much of what you kinda had said there is on the verifiable credential side, but they work hand in hand with digital identities because   exactly or decentralized identities exactly for that reason because you may not actually have any other information about a decentralized identity   besides, like, some very basic information such as keys.  

There's you can the cool thing is you can list many different keys inside your digital your decentralized identity.   All it is really is and it's so funny too when I hear people get scared of DIDs and the way it's heading. It's literally just a process for taking an ID. So, like, did colon something colon 12345.   Taking that and getting a JSON document out of it. And then that JSON document has common properties such as,   a list of public keys, and it could be any public you know, it can support many different types of public keys too for different crypto. Like, you know, some keys are meant more for signing, some keys are meant for for encryption.   You can delegate those keys too so you can have you can say this key is, like, my master key. It can do all the things like delegation, authentication, authorization, and I think there's a few other property types for keys and, capabilities.  

Or you can have one key that, like, you keep on your mobile phone and that, you know, that's good for logging in to websites or something. So you have a list of different keys. So it's not just like one key,   which actually kinda makes things simple. You can, like, scatter keys across all your devices,   but then you can also have,   a list of services that you support. And to me, that's the big one. I often get, like, what's the difference between PGP and DIDS? Like, you know, you take a key and it represents an identity.   And I I think And we've had PGP keys forever. Exactly. And I think there's 2 main   2 big distinctions to me that really   changes the game is the fact that you could have a process, like, they call it a did method, but you could have a process for taking an ID, a certain type of ID, DID,   and turning that into adjacent document, and everyone across the world sees the same picture.  

And, you know, there's this, Bitcoin based,   that caught eye on as as you kinda said Microsoft had kinda started with   Daniel started it under Microsoft.   I think most people from Microsoft working on that project or around that project has have actually left. It was way more than just Daniel too. I think they I think they all scattered after that,   after Microsoft started getting   super ESG woke about Bitcoin.   But, to me, the big distinctions are you could have the Bitcoin global state that we do have,   through the use of Opera turns.   And   me and then another person on the other side of the world could have the latest state for someone's, you know, JSON document that represents   their keys and services that they support.  

That's the big one. And then the second one is the fact that you can list services inside of your,   identity too. And with services, I mean things like,   communication.   You can have, like, your Dropbox is one of your links so people can go view your public pictures if they wanted to.   Literally any service, and that's just kinda why I love Dids too. It's, like, not opinionated.   You can have literally any app and service that you have on the Internet today could fit inside the DIT model because you've listed as a service endpoint.   And then some of the web 5 stuff that they're working on too is even abstracts that further. So, like, there's so many different applications you can build on top of it just from the fact that you have,   you can resolve the ID   from anywhere.  

And and, you know, if you're using Ion, you know, you just need access to public Bitcoin blockchain,   and then the fact that you have keys and services listed inside of that document. And from there, you can do communication and anything else, and you can do public key, you know, cryptography and encryption and signing,   just from those,  

[00:21:54] Unknown:

3 You can send messages. You can do file transfer.   The   so the way I look at Dids,   I would not say I'm I said earlier, maybe I'm a skeptic. I wouldn't say I'm a skeptic.   I'm I think someone needs to push back on the hype a little bit   because,   and that doesn't mean I'm not bullish on dids. It doesn't mean I don't want dids. I think they are a   massive improvement on how current identity is handled.   But the way I look at it is actually similar to the way I look at Bitcoin, which I'm extremely bullish on. Right? Like, I've dedicated my life   to working in the Bitcoin space, right, and supporting   Bitcoin projects and and working on education and whatnot,   which is that it's a tool,   but, ultimately, it depends on how you use that tool.  

And the way I look at Bitcoin is I do think a large   majority of people   will end up using Bitcoin   in a very compliant,   permissioned   way using centralized   regulated parties.   And with Dids,   I see a similar trajectory where I see   people using DIDS that are signed by Facebook, people using DIDS that are signed by whatever government,   they are subject to. Right? And   the concern I have is that with Bitcoin,   we have   the the financial surveillance mechanisms   are already in place   in all standard digital   payment methods. Right? You use Venmo. You use PayPal. You use your credit card. You use your bank.   They're completely surveilled and tracked. They're sold to countless third parties,   data brokers.  

They're leaked.   They're shared with governments. Like, financial surveillance Panopticon is already here. So people use Bitcoin in a financially surveilled way,   you know, it that's a continuation of the status quo, but at least   a minority of people   can learn, educate,   take control themselves, and use Bitcoin in a private way.   With Dids, my concern is   that we're speeding up this Panopticon   digital ID because we're setting up a robust system   where, you know,   a government just simply needs to, like,   bolt into the system, or Facebook simply needs to bolt into the system, and they have it all ready to go.   What do you think about that concern? Is that like, is that a real concern? Or Oh,  

[00:24:44] Unknown:

am I just being contrarian for contrarian sake? It's a concern, but it's also true, and it's also   already happening.   Some of the   it's funny. Some of the biggest funders of a lot of decentralized identity projects and verifiable credential projects   are actually the DHS themselves.   Department of Homeland Security. Yep. Their Silicon Valley initiative where they   kind of throw money at startups, don't take any equity, they just throw money at startups and ask them to solve different problems, and they'll have,   like, a use case that they're trying to solve. So as early back, I think, as 2019,   they've been funding some of these projects   around verifiable credentials and decentralized   identity. So it's already happening, and they've already,   I've been in on some of those meetings too. And the the, you know, one of the times that we all kinda ask the question, I'm like, okay, so, you know, we're doing a lot of like DID development and we're trying to create this interoperable system here.  

You know, what what,   Blockchain or or, you know, application type do you want, to kinda see your,   some of your use cases. And   the answer we got back from that was basically, oh,   the government will run the identities for everyone. Right. They just want the interoperability,   and they want the ecosystem. They want all the hard work that the government doesn't do.   And then they want us to build that, and then they're gonna interoperate with it, because everything's already using it. So   what you bring up is a concern because it is actually literally what's happening.   Do I think that we shouldn't still do it anyways because   any good tech, if it's actually good tech, can be used for evil as well.  

But I think you have a point in, like, are we accelerating that,   too fast?   But the alternative would be, okay, if we go too slow,   then they're just gonna roll out a a comp I mean  

[00:26:45] Unknown:

So, I mean, like, the perfect example is we literally went through,   the last 2 years   was an attempt to attack the movement of individuals around the world Yep.   In the in the name of COVID response. Right? They had what has essentially amounted to movement licenses,   in these in these new   health passports. Right?   And the way they chose to implement that,   you know, the most powerful government on Earth, the US government,   chose to print out paper index cards   and have you write your name down. And, you know,   I my understanding is that   it was a felony to fake them,   so no one should, you know, go out and break the law.  

But   a lot of people fake them. They were very easy to fake. And they were just basically relying on that scare tactic of if you get caught, like, we're gonna throw the book at you and make an example of you.   If there was a robust protocol   ready to go for them on DIDS.  

[00:27:52] Unknown:

They would a 100% do it. Right? They would a 100% have used the DIDS instead. And in fact, it was actually kind of sickening.   I was in transition out of the job that I was using verifiable credentials and DIDs for. And actually, I was in progress of working with some of the, DHS people,   at that time. And whenever some of whenever COVID happened,   immediately,   so many people from the w three c community were, like, posted on the mailing list. Oh, here's how we can apply COVID   vax passes to decentralized identities and verifiable credentials. And, like, overnight,   I saw, like, startups launch their, like, web page about how they're gonna do tracking to walk into a grocery store,   using Dids. And they're like, oh, this is this is using this technology. And it made me fucking sick. It made me so sick. I was like, fuck this community.  

I ever I can't believe everyone's going along with it. This is literally surveillance. This is literally what we're trying to stop, and the argument at the time was sort of like well, this we're just letting people choose.   Right. We're giving people options. We're giving people options. At least they can own some of their data. At least they can hold on to one of their keys. It could be worse. It could be worse.   But, yeah, it it it they would a 100% use it, and they would try. And if there's already an interoperable system in place, they're gonna use it. But it's like, if we don't build it right now, they're gonna build a very shitty deep digital identity   version of it. And I don't know. Maybe we can kind of go along,   you know, quite far before they catch up to some of the innovation and some of the self sovereign stacks that we can build in the meantime. Because I mean, rolling something out at scale, like right now okay. Let's say the did spec, I think it just got recommended,   last week,   as a w three c recommendation. I think it finally went through.  

Okay. Let's all start now. Let's see what we can build in a year or 2.   And I bet you we beat out the government. So it's like, let's see, let's see what cool stuff we can build in the meantime.   Are they still gonna use it? Yes. But, you know, China doesn't need   decentralized a decentralized identity spec to be doing   some digital ID rollout over there. So it's like they're gonna do it regardless.   At least let's hold hold one of the keys.   You know, and maybe fight back. I might joke a little bit, but, you know So, I mean, first of all, I have two things there.  

[00:30:16] Unknown:

And and freaks, this whole conversation isn't gonna be on dibs.   The   first off,   it's it's unfortunate that that YouTube   banned the dispatch channel after 5 days for   supposedly promoting scams. Was that after the Monero one? Because   because I didn't know   that we were gonna be talking about vaccine passports, so they would have definitely banned the account,   once that's this stream went live anyway. Oh, yeah. So, anyway, YouTube can go fuck themselves. But,   and I'm sorry, freaks, for those freaks that prefer YouTube. It is what it is. I press the appeal button.   Don't hold your breath. The second thing is, do you see a lot of   there's definitely some I mean, I've never been in the verifiable   credential community, but there's definitely a lot of similarities there with what we see in Bitcoin, where you see, like, the people that are like, oh, we need regulatory clarity or, you know, AOPP.  

Like, the address verification method is just an option. It just makes it easier for users. It's opt in. They don't have to do it. Like, we see a lot of that   in the Bitcoin community as well.  

[00:31:24] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:31:25] Unknown:

There's a lot of parallels there between Dids and Bitcoin. Like, it's a tool. It's an open protocol.   It's how you use it.  

[00:31:32] Unknown:

Stakeholders will have different opinions on And honestly, it's it's it's kind of beautiful to see. Right? Because that means it's, I guess a non partisan issue like that both sides can appreciate   what it could give   each side. So   the people that are actually for   more regulation and enforcement,   they may like it because now instead of taking a picture of a fake ID and uploading it to some service and having them, like, do a check you know, have another service process whether or not that image was   authenticate,   like, authentic or not,   We get better we could get better in enforcement on the regulation,   the regulations that do exist, like driver's license and stuff like that. You know? Not, I guess,   not all and maybe this is the hill I die die on, but, like, maybe not all like you're dying on this side. Regulations.  

Like, I'm not saying we should have zero regulations ever, like, e even under an anarchy system. What regulations do you agree with? I don't know.   Being older than 10 years old at least to to drive a car, I mean, like, there's, you know, maybe some loose level regulations that we have. Maybe better state enforcement   instead of federal enforcement, but, you know, maybe I don't know.  

[00:32:44] Unknown:

You know, maybe we should If you disagree with Tony's,  

[00:32:47] Unknown:

opinion with Tony. Maybe we should driver's regulations,  

[00:32:50] Unknown:

make sure you you leave a note in the boostograms.  

[00:32:53] Unknown:

Yeah.   But then on the reverse side,   it is a tool for be for people to be able to have a lot like, how many times have you logged into a website and you hated the fact that you had to provide a email at all? Like, you know, I Right. I hate that. It's hard to even get a private email. I mean, Twitter is a perfect example. It's the only social media I use.  

[00:33:14] Unknown:

Like, Twitter basically requires soft k y c   in that,   first of all, you need an email. It's hard to get an email that's not attached to your identity. And a lot of times, they'll lock your account if you don't have a phone number, and it's hard to get a phone number without identity.   Yeah.   So I I think it does suck as logins. Yeah. Exactly. And then there's another thing. There's there's the,   like, in the broader crypto community,   we have Masaki in the comments saying use burner emails, Kek. Yeah, you can use burner emails. I'm just saying it's getting harder and harder to easily access. I mean, what if you want what if you want a service that you want to use again?   Right. Oh, but the one time use emails, like, a lot of times Twitter will fuck you on that too, because they'll be like, we just sent an email confirmation to unlock your account. I don't have control that email anymore. But what I was gonna say is there's that company,   what the broader crypto space is looking at is, like, there's this company that raised a shit ton of money from Anderson Horowitz and a bunch of other,   prosurveillance   venture capitalists,   and   they   allow they have you sign in with your full financial transaction history. Like, you sign in with your ETH account.  

So, like, if you're talking about, like, dystopian shit,   it's not just coming from the government side. Like, the private sector is also proposing even worse shit.   I can't even like, can you imagine,  

[00:34:39] Unknown:

like, who's in that meeting room that says, like, oh, like, when we sign up for our services, we should expose our full financial transaction history. Yeah. I mean, that that just comes out of the fact that, like, Ethereum has very shitty privacy, and they don't care about their users. And they actually lean into the fact that,   you know, there's bag lists and people that are rich lists, and they hope, they hope for more proof of staking systems and stuff like that. So We had Chips Ahoy in the comments on Twitch saying, I was driving a 10 goddamn commie.   Well, no. If you're 10, that's fine. You know? When I said older, you know, as long as you're 10 or old.  

Maybe I just said older older than the 10. I'm sorry.   But it's,   I don't know. I mean, at least you can, I forgot what we were saying there, but at least you can kind of, like, log in to websites without, like, using some Twitter login auth or Right? You know, at least the service that you wanna log in again at some point.   So. It sounds like a strictly better system. Right. But you could argue on both sides, but you you do see people on the left want, like, more regulations than they kind of like more regulated   enforcement, and you can do that better with digital signatures and stuff like that. On the other hand, at least I can use a website and have some of my own identity,   that can even live beyond that website into a different one. You know, kinda like Twitter does their off stuff, so you can have your Twitter account log in to it other way. You can do the same thing with decentralized identities too. So it's a way to kinda persist your data.  

You can even, like, interrupt your data too amongst different websites. Like, if you have,   your data store on your server   at home, like, on your Raspberry Pi or something up with a list of tweets,   you can go into like, I I love the idea of, like, dumb front ends. Like, front ends in this, like, DID world that just, like, access individual data stores and pulls them down   and creates a beautiful UI from it, and we all compete on creating beautiful UIs and a beautiful user experience. We're all in we're all working with the same data.   It's just about creating a better user experience,   for that data, and that data doesn't list, that data doesn't live on AWS's   servers and and Microsoft's servers and and all those places.  

Ideally, they live on your Raspberry Pi. But someone viewing   your Twitter account,   pulling tweets from your Raspberry Pi looks the exact same as me pulling, you know, Jeff Bezos'   Twitter account where he keeps his tweets on AWS. So I like the fact that we can have options,   under a kind of DID system.   And, you know, at least, you know, some of the options are very self sovereign friendly.  

[00:37:15] Unknown:

I mean, when it comes down to it, it's you know,   one could argue that the Internet   brought about the greatest surveillance mechanism the world has ever seen.   Bitcoin might bring in, you know, surveillance money for a large amount of people.   Dids might bring in surveillance digital IDs for a a large amount of people. But, ultimately, all three allow   sovereign individuals to take control over their lives, and   it it empowers them. And and I I would say that most people would say that the Internet was a massive net benefit.   I think most Bitcoiners would say that Bitcoin is a massive net benefit, and I think we will see that play out. And it's probably the same exact thing with Dits. Right? Yeah. I think so. I I think I one of the things I like to say is, like, you know, Bitcoin fixed  

[00:38:02] Unknown:

the money problem. Right?   But we still have an identity problem that we have to fix.   Like, we can't live our lives with 0 reputation anywhere and no identities, no trust   in anybody.   I think even under  

[00:38:16] Unknown:

some anarchist local economy system, you're still gonna have trust in your friends and family. If any I mean, deeds are super important in that situation. Yeah. You need to have some kind of easy   interoperable   identity system. Right? At least world, at least Yeah, at least in this digital world. Because if you're talking like an anarchist   world filled with citadels,   like, you're talking about, like, local   economies   and all these different independent trade   agreements and stuff like that. And   you you need some kind of interoperable identity   layer in there as well. Right?  



[00:38:52] Unknown:

I mean, I think it helps, especially if you wanna interact with, I guess, people from other other citadels.   You're still gonna probably wanna do trade with, you know, the the Austin citadels. Gonna wanna trade with the Nashville citadel. Occasionally, you guys are gonna wanna beef. We're gonna want your what you guys do here, chicken.  

[00:39:07] Unknown:

We're we're gonna want your chicken. We're you know, we still need We we just launched the Tennessee beef initiative, buddy. We have a lot of beef here as well. Okay. Okay. So We don't need your beef. I'm sorry.   But, yes, there will be trade between the 2. Yeah. We need your chicken still.   We'll figure out something to give you. You must have a lot of chicken and   Probably. But you guys have hot chicken. Yeah. Well, we can send you spices.  

[00:39:28] Unknown:

But we're still gonna and especially if we're living a world without, like, the government and, like, smaller,   privatized companies,   you know, we're we're still gonna need a way to contact somebody else, and, hopefully, it's not always through Twitter.  

[00:39:40] Unknown:

You saw now like the Supreme Court is now wanting social media history to like buy guns and have your second Well, no, the Supreme Court is not a the Supreme Court knocked down the New York law. So New York added a it looks like New York is gonna add a new law that requires social media history Right. I said that. To get a concealed carry permit. Exactly. And then that fucking sucks. We shouldn't need Facebook's permission to fucking get a gun. Well, Facebook's gonna have to sign your did in order to get a gun in there. Still gonna be some of that. You know, the whole  

[00:40:08] Unknown:

the whole scenario where you go to the DMV open system. You go to the DMV, and they'll you know, under that kind of system where we still get some   verifiable proof from the government, such as our age. You know, there's some basic things that kinda help, but, like, age and and whether you can drive and things like that. But,  

[00:40:26] Unknown:

you're still gonna go to the DMV. You're in extreme status when it comes to driving. You just keep bringing it up.  

[00:40:32] Unknown:

Look. I don't wanna there's a lot of idiots on the road already. Like, I've been on the road the last 2 months.   I I don't wanna deal with, 10 year old idiots. I'm sorry, dude. I'm sorry for that guy in the comments. But,   you're still gonna go to the DMV, but hopefully, ideally,   I bring my own did   with my own data and my own keys, and and it could be a Bitcoin based did.   And I bring that to the DMV. And I said, okay. You know, I can drive,   sign a verifiable credential, tell tell the whole world that, you know, and sign it to my DID and say that I can drive. And it doesn't and someone can go someone can walk in with Ethereum data. I don't I don't give a fuck, but they can sign their DID.   You know, their verified credential specifying that their DID can drive. So we're still gonna have some level of proofs and attestations   in this world,   even from the government itself. But, ideally,   it's from an ID that they can't just rip up and throw away. So you said this you said this term Bitcoin based did.  



[00:41:30] Unknown:

The ion   the ion proposal   and   what what CSU is continuing at at Block  

[00:41:39] Unknown:

involve Bitcoin? How do they involve Bitcoin for the freaks? Right. So the way it kinda works, it it uses op returns,   but it uses them in a little bit of a different way   where it's not just one ID per op return.   You can do up to 10,000 different ID operations. So it could be, like, updating your ID, updating the keys or services or whatever, or it could be adding a new one or deleting 1.   But, essentially, you can have up to 10,000 in a single Bitcoin transaction.   So that's already a huge improvement.   But you basically do a Merkle tree hash and of of all the different   did document,   operations you wanna do, whether it's add or delete or update.  

You hash them all together. You put that into IPFS documents. So there's a little bit of IPFS play here.  

[00:42:27] Unknown:

How does IPFS work?   I have no fucking idea. I just I don't think it's kinda works. Sorry. Continue. Yeah. It's it's some distributed hash. I know I know, Is it really robust? Like, it feels like it's not robust at all. It's it's really   slow for most of the time for general users from So IPFS is, like, you can think of it as, like,   a it's supposed to be a distributed Dropbox replacement. And it's content. You can use as cloud storage,  

[00:42:51] Unknown:

but distribute it. And and it's really cool because,   if all I have is a hash I'm pretty sure it's not robust.   It's it, you know, it's it kinda works. The incentives make no sense to me. Yeah. There's there's there's,  

[00:43:04] Unknown:

yeah, I can get into that in a second, but I didn't realize that DIDS are completely relying on IPFS.  

[00:43:09] Unknown:

No.   Ion is.   Okay. So and that's another distinction too. We there's some people that say, like, oh, we don't need And by the way, IPFS stands for interplanetary  

[00:43:19] Unknown:

file system Yeah. Which just immediately reeks of shit coin to me. I mean, you guys were talking about interplanetary stuff last week. Yeah. But we were actually talking about between planets. It wasn't like a tech stack. Well, this could work between planets. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. So the the cool part about,  

[00:43:34] Unknown:

IPFS, and I'll I'll continue explaining a little bit more of Ion too. But,   is that it is content addressable. So if I   if I have a hash and it, like, represents an image,   I can get, if anyone on IPFS is hosting that,   you can grab it from anyone, and you know it hasn't been altered.   So the image you pull down from any node on the network that has it,   you get that back. The problem is getting it from nodes that have it. If you're just like a random person and you have an IPFS file and you have it on your laptop or your node,   and you shut it down and and, you know, go, you know, go off along your day,   no one's gonna have access to that. Like, no one. Because you were, like, the only person hosting it. Right. So, like, as there's this whole, like, gossip system, I think, of, like, trying to figure out where the files are hosted.  

So it takes a while for a file to actually reflect it. Or you can pay some of these you can pin,   files. You can pay some of these bigger nodes that already have that are already well connected with each other. So there's some sort of, like,   distributed sense to it.   So presumably, you could keep this   this DIV file anywhere. Right. And you'd and it's okay if, like, it can't be accessed at that point time. Right? Because you if you wanted to, I could create a did. But IPFS is, like, the easiest solution right now, at least. Yeah. And it it's at least a solution for,   Ion currently. So they'll write and in theory, you could maybe have one where instead of an IPFS hash, if there is a better   content addressable   solution for hosting files,   you write that off, return in it, but you can have the same kind of ion system,   just not on IPFS, just on, like, I don't know, a better storage system. But the fact is, like, all decentralized storage systems kinda suck. Anyway Right. So, like, it's ION's, like, the best or sorry. IPFS is just the best we kinda got right now. There's another one. I think it's some DAG. It's called some DAG thing, I think, Synonym's doing, but,   there's not, like, fantastic options   for decentralized storage anyways. And then the incentives, yeah, the incentives don't really line up anyways. You can pay someone and trust that they're actually going to   host it for you because they may decide not to or they may decide, you know, they may not be able to handle the load for how much traffic you think that file or something's gonna get.  

And that's why, like, Filecoin   got birth, which is just it's just complete shit. Shit coin. A complete shit coin. But,   I I I think it's fine. The incentives, like, if if if I ask, you know, Bitcoin TV to host my content and then they go away, well, all of a sudden their reputation's burned. I'm never gonna even remember again. So I think it's okay that there's some trust. Like, I may pay Bitcoin TV or I may pay someone else to host my IPFS file. There could presumably be providers   that are getting paid probably with Sats. Yeah. And you don't need some, like, cryptographic   atomic proof that they're gonna do it. You just say, well, if they ever stop, I'm never I'm gonna leave their And then in simple speak, where the Bitcoin chain comes in is it basically proves integrity of that file Mhmm. In the most secure ledger the world has ever seen. Right. And especially at that point in time So you're not trusting  

[00:46:40] Unknown:

the hosting provider of the file   with the integrity of the file because you can confirm it with the hash that's on chain. Exactly.  

[00:46:49] Unknown:

In a cryptographically verifiable way. Yeah. And then and then if you have those IPFS files, you do have to, I think, like, unwind the Merkle tree. So you do have to, like, pull in individually But presumably, like, software can just handle all of that. Exactly. Software handles all of that, like, the root hash that is put into the opportune. Like, most did users are gonna have no idea what any of this is, is, and that's fine. Yeah. And you don't need to. And in fact, and that's, like I said, just Ion's way of doing it.   There's, like,   a 100 different did methods. Most of them are shit coins,   for a way that they anchor identity to a blockchain, but you don't need a blockchain at all. That's also like a common misconception   is that, oh, why would you spam Bitcoin's blockchain?  

Putting this on Bitcoin, you don't like, did suck. They don't, you know, we don't need identity on a blockchain. So okay, cool. You don't,  

[00:47:35] Unknown:

you can have that integrity aspect super important?   It's important. Okay. There's And they're paying a fee anyway for the transaction, so it's not spam. Yeah. It's not it's not spam. What like,   I mean, fees are not non existent on Bitcoin. What do we care? Right.  

[00:47:51] Unknown:

And and then our nodes don't,   index op returns anyway. So it kind of it kinda saves a little bit. They don't get indexed in our TX. If fees go up on Bitcoin, then you can further optimize in the future. Right. And then right now, the cap is 10,000 operations per op return too. So you can do a lot of different,   identity updates.   And then maybe, you know, if the if the fees did get outrageous,   I believe that's just like a node imp like an ion implementation. They could probably just raise that if they needed to.   Presumably, there's some limit somewhere.  

Yeah. It's   the reason they have that limit is because they don't want because there are IPFS files that each ion node is gonna want to hold on to. They don't have to. Each Ion node can my Ion node can decide to only store documents for my identity.   And that's the cool thing. I can forever store   my identity on IPFS and, like, close my laptop and, like, or maybe, like, print it off or something, or I don't know. But I could, like, close my laptop and, you know,   no one would be able if if I was the only eye on the IPFS note that had   some of my document files on IPFS  

[00:48:59] Unknown:

Right.  

[00:49:00] Unknown:

If I was the only one and then I shut my laptop and and ran off,   no one would be able to resolve my DID or at least get the latest state or whatever whatever documents I was trying to access to resolve my DID.   Those won't exist. So they won't have,   the latest version of my DID, my identity.   But at any point in time, I can come back   with the files, and I go, oh, I didn't know if I shut my laptop,   I wouldn't be able to access my like, other people wouldn't be able to just resolve my identity. So they can, you know, they can pay to have it pinned elsewhere.   They can have they can ask their friends. They can go to the Raspberry Pi and host their IPFS files there.  

You don't even need to be running   a full Ion node. You just need to have access you just need to know what IPFS files   that are so you can have your identity. I can host yours. You can host mine. Exactly. We could be ID buddies. Right. So as it currently stands, Ion nodes will just  

[00:49:57] Unknown:

So they're mostly using IPFS as, like, an interoperable standard.   You're not actually relying on the robustness of the system because you could have   Right. And you could have, like, kind of uncle Jim networks Right. And friends and family, like,   group holding each other's ID  

[00:50:12] Unknown:

state. Right. And even if only, like, your local community can resolve your DID, at least, you know, at least that, you know, works. But as it currently stands,   all Ion nodes   do actually save all IPFS files to their storage,   that make   up Ion identities. Okay. So the problem I said were, like, I create an Ion data and I close my laptop and run away. Now no one can resolve it. That's not a problem right now because because each ion node's keeping a copy. Exactly. But presumably, if we hit, you know,  

[00:50:43] Unknown:

a 1000000000 people or something, that's gonna be prohibitively expensive.  

[00:50:47] Unknown:

Right. And I I believe they have done some numbers before,   and they've arrived at, like, some worst case scenarios,   in the orders of magnitude of terabytes.   But some of their models that's like, I think it's unlike I mean, that's not horrible. Right? It's not the worst thing in the world. If it if if you say, like, you know, a few a few terabytes can have, like, millions or 100 of millions of of IDs,   that's not the end of the world.   And then especially in 10 years, who knows how much, like, a terabyte is gonna cost?   So   there there's a 10,000 operation limit because it it at least stops someone I guess it's crazy Millions of data. Like the Bitcoin threat model, though, where, like, if you  

[00:51:29] Unknown:

the bigger issue is bandwidth   than storage.   Like, it does it become prohibitively expensive to run an ion node so there's only, like, 3 of them, and they're all run by   evil mega corpse.   I think the bandwidth issue would probably have,   IPFS would have  

[00:51:48] Unknown:

have a lot to that, I think.   I don't know what the stress test on IPFS are, and I don't know how   good being able to retrieve documents on, like, a huge massive scale is actually gonna work. The ion nodes are key to the whole system. Right?   Yeah. And the ion node is basically the ion node would Can anyone run an ion node? Anyone can run an ion node. You point it to your, Bitcoin  

[00:52:07] Unknown:

instance. Can you run an ION node without storing everyone's   credentials?  

[00:52:13] Unknown:

I don't think there's a way to turn that off. But, presumably, someone could Right. Create a fork and do that. Right? And you could say, I just want to be able to create Ion identity. The cool thing is you can actually   have someone else publish your Ion updates on behalf of you.   You still sign it with your keys, but then you give the document to someone else and you say, hey. You're about to like, if I'm about to update my Ion identity, and you come to me and say you didn't wanna pay any on chain fees, but you know I'm already gonna pay some on chain fees,   I can just include your update with my blockchain  

[00:52:45] Unknown:

posting. So we have   a a man from the tribe of Benz,   Ben DeCarmen, saying, I think the gate to running an ion node is doing all the op return transactions. Is there a specific signature that has to be done for the upturn transactions?  

[00:53:01] Unknown:

Yeah. You have to you do have to parse,   all the upturn transactions. And then I believe on Mainnet, it starts with, like, 1 But what about submitting the opportune transactions? Is that permitted? Is that permissioned? Or No. Can anyone do that? Can do that. So anyone will post a specific opportune,   and all the ion nodes will look at it and judge whether or not that's like an ion one. And if it was an ion operation, then they go fetch the IPFS file, and then they say, okay. This is a valid ion update or not. And if it is, well, let's say it was just something random, then they throw it away. But let's say it wasn't signed correctly, then they they throw that update away. But if everything was Gucci, then they would just take that update and apply it to the did that they already have in their system. So if you want to trustlessly   resolve other people's dids,   you would want to run an ion node that does,   store all the IPFS updates,   from all the other  

[00:53:57] Unknown:

contributor the all the all the people posting. Because you have to check them anyway, so it's a performance thing.   Carmen was saying he meant the fees. Like, it would just it could be prohibitively expensive for people to   run an eye on node that's submitting op returns if fees go up.  

[00:54:14] Unknown:

Yeah. But that's where you can do up to 10,000 operations in a single   Yeah. Single op return. So that, like, you know, that helps a lot. And you can like like I said, you can have your buddy do it for you. And I was, like, thinking more of I was thinking more of a check, like, if I was running my own Ion node, like, I wouldn't, like, try and  

[00:54:35] Unknown:

I wouldn't try and submit everyone's updates to chain. It would just be, like, my buddies if   if the main ones weren't doing it or whatever. It'd be more of, like, a check on power rather than  

[00:54:46] Unknown:

Exactly. Everyone's updates. And you can run an eye on node and, like, not do any updates, and you're just, like, resolving other people's identity, and maybe you don't have one yourself.   But then the cool thing is there's there's also, like, peer to peer based it that, like, don't broadcast to a chain at all.   There's still there's still keys involved, and you basically   you take   the document and you have your own peer to peer based ID that's, like, derived from that document, and then I give it to you through, like, a text file.   Or it's like how PGP is kinda handled anyways,   where you take your you take your blob of p PGP file and you, like, host it somewhere.  

You can do the same exact thing   for, peer to peer based DIDs without a blockchain involved at all. So but the cool thing   is that you're still interoperable   with ever everyone else's DIDs no matter which one they choose. If if someone's using an Ion DID and they wanna talk to a person that's using just like a peer to peer DID and they gave them their DID,   You could do that.   And and and you can use the same applications.   You talk to them exactly the same.   It's just the resolving of I have this ID,   and I need a document.   How   what's the process for this ID type to get that document? And that's all that matters. That's all DIDs are, really.  



[00:56:02] Unknown:

So, I mean, let's transition here. We somehow spent   50 minutes on DIDs. Died on that hill, I guess. You're dying on the hill. You're the you're the main Didd guy now. It's you and   it's you and, CSU Wildcat.   Shout out to Dan.   He's CSU Wildcat. Yep.   The   so are you familiar with Block's Web 5 proposal?   A little bit. So, like, where did did for the freaks, where did dids   fall into that vision? What is that overarching vision?  

[00:56:38] Unknown:

The overarching vision, and I and, of course, they would probably say it better than I,   but it's a   basically a stack   of did adjacent   technology.   So dids are,   I would say, one of the biggest aspects   for their web 5 vision.   The IDs themselves, the identity layer itself. Right. But then I would say that web 5   now is like building this application or developer tooling suite   of tools around   DID. So I believe there's   something they're calling a decentralized web node,   which is basically your they want that to be, like, almost your application stack that you have somewhere.   They want verifiable credential tooling amongst their web 5 stack where they have,   you know, tools and and processes in place and maybe some applications where you can actually, like, share. Yeah. I think Matt's a good guy, and you can have you know, build reputation systems from that or whatever.  

And they have, like yeah. I believe   all the stuff around decentralized web node and,   some of their tooling and verified potential stuff,  

[00:57:44] Unknown:

They're building that around. And they have the TBD project   Right. Which is their, like, decentralized exchange protocol.  

[00:57:52] Unknown:

Yeah. And I believe that Which relies on DIDS as well. Relies on DIDS as well. So the whole  

[00:57:57] Unknown:

basically, the whole basis for   the build out of web 5 is built on the bedrock of Dids. Yep. Which is beautiful to see because, it's been in the works,  

[00:58:07] Unknown:

I think even well before 2017,   and,   I hope we're finally kinda seeing the vision of that play out. So I actually get some cool applications that   hopefully release soon this year,   using them, and we can kind of play it with them ourselves and see   see if, it's actually real or not. But, like, as it currently stands, I don't think you can do any of that web 5 stuff right now, but there are,   I think they are working on that.  

[00:58:35] Unknown:

And the most important part of web 5 was that it was an elaborate troll on web 3 devs.   Yep. Because it's 2 it's web 2 plus web 3. It's 2 times better than web 3.   Yep. Oh, no. It's  

[00:58:47] Unknown:

No. Not. It's just 2 increments better. It's 2 increments better. That's  

[00:58:53] Unknown:

that's your your daily dose of live math.   Did did better than Marty.   2 2 times 3 is 6.   So, I mean, I assume we're gonna talk more about this topic over the next 2 weeks as more people come into town.   So we'll keep coming back to this topic among other topics.   Let's pivot into   your recent lightning privacy work.   Yeah.   How's that going?  

[00:59:22] Unknown:

It's good. It's a lot.   A lot of different things.   So I can dive into some of that. I think, I think the one that you're familiar with is some of the probing that I've been doing. Yeah. What's the deal with that? You added,   30 gigs to my fucking storage requirements, my node. Yeah. I know. I apologize for that. I did not even mean to.   I think I had, like, asked you if I could probe you, and you're like, yeah. Sure. No. I said you don't need my permission. Anyone can probe.   Yeah. It's an open system. So I started that. What is probing? Yeah. So probing. On the Lightning Network,   there's this problem where you basically anybody that has a channel   can basically probe anyone else. And probing itself is the act of sending a fake payment,   either to a node or through a node to kind of gauge information about   information that they can drive from whether or not that payment that fake payment made it past that node or if it got kicked back   because of things like maybe there's not enough liquidity. So probing is historically used for balance probing.  

See how much money you have on lightning. Yeah. And, typically, it's not a malicious thing.   Services will do especially custodians, they have to they almost have to do this because the problem with lightning is you you don't know the fee that you're gonna actually pay until you get, like, that final confirmation screen of, like, okay, this fee is gonna be a 100 sats.   The only reason you know it's gonna be a 100 sats is because the wallet did a pro behind the scenes. Typically, it's like it it shouldn't really show you a fee.  

[01:00:59] Unknown:

You hit send, and then it does its route finding, it does its path finding, it tries different paths, and it fails, and it eventually goes through. Well, because some laws will they let you pick your you don't know the fee ahead of time, but you're like, my max fee is this. Yeah. So attempt the payment. If it goes over the max fee, then come back to me and be like,  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

you need to Exactly. Raise your money. Or it'll only try to go down paths that are below a certain fee.   Some of the routing algorithms have gotten smarter too where they understand that the cheapest path   may not work very often, so they'll go a little bit above. It's like they don't want the bottom lowest 1% cheapness. They would rather, like, go, like, 5%. Because cheaper fees would normally be mean, like, a worse note operator or something like that. Right. Or yeah.  

[01:01:45] Unknown:

That's the I mean, I know there's another thing, like, I don't know if anyone's actually doing with this for their path finding, but,   the cheaper fee could be less private because you go through less hops. Exactly.  

[01:01:57] Unknown:

The cheap yeah. Exactly. The cheapest fee, the less hops,   that could end up being, the least the least private.   Honestly, yeah, if you want more privacy when you're, like, making payments, going through the most amount of hops as possible, not just the most amount of hops, but the hops that aren't the lowest path. Because you can even do like, if I know   where your node is and where it sits, and I know, like, another node and where it sits,   I know I can compute   the lowest path between you and   and and and Rod or you and someone else. I already know what that is. So if you actually take that path,   and their observers in the middle, they can kind of hypothesize of whether or not, okay,   the the payment came from this channel   and I routed it out that channel. Like, how many lowest path algorithms   fit that profile?  

So, yeah, there's there's a there's an advantage to kind of sending it down not the lowest path or not the lowest amount of hops. But probing itself is basically they're doing that to find out what payment actually succeeds.   It's funny because it'll succeed in terms of probing means it made it to the destination and then it failed.   But you can see if it made it to that destination.   So you try a bunch of fake payments. It makes it to the destination.   You know what it you'll you'll calculate the fee on that, and you say, okay. That's gonna be a 100 sets. And then you go back to the user and say, it's gonna be a 100 sets to make this payment. Do you want to do this? Yes or no?   And at least they have an exact amount for the fee.  

And custodians have to have that exact amount. They can't just be   charging everyone at scale, like, willy nilly. They need to actually have   an exact fee to   see. They want the cheapest fees for the user for 1, but they also want to make sure that they can account for their own fees and they can get paid too. So these services are just probing left and right all the time. Yeah. Typically, just in time probing, which is just like right when the payment's about to be made. They send out a probe first. Right. But they can also just be probing constantly. So   I took that probing concept,   and I wrote about it a year ago, and we talked about it on Sedalia dispatch Alright. So 21.  

You can probe for the existence of unannounced channels too.  

[01:04:11] Unknown:

Right. So called private channels. So called private channels. But you don't like the term private channels, so we're calling them unannounced channels. Unannounced channels now. Stop because they're not private. They're not they're not. They're,  

[01:04:21] Unknown:

I mean, they're a little bit more private in terms of, like, you're not   announcing them to the rest. You're not gossiping about them to the rest of the Lightning Network,   but there's   a variety of ways you can figure out,   that a unannounced channel exists as in, like, it could be in your invoice because you need to get paid down your unannounced channel. If you need to use an unannounced channel to receive a payment, you have to give something called a root hint, which puts it in the invoice. Exactly. And you give that invoice   to a user, and that user may pay with strike. And then all of a sudden, now Stripe knows about all of your nodes unannounced channels. Stripe knows a lot of shit. Stripe knows a lot. General. Yeah. It's funny. If you ever And every invoice has your note ID. We've gone over the Exactly. And,   what I like doing is, like, writing in the memo, like, this is for drugs. Right. Just try and get their strike account frozen. Exactly. So if they pay in strike, I'm like, oh,   It's funny because they'll scan it, and then it pops up on the strike app. Oh, you're paying this for drugs. It says it on the memo. At that point, they already know. It's too late at that point. Too late.  



[01:05:21] Unknown:

Well, that's what I think we talked about previously just getting rid of the memo field, right? Because it's a very user foot gun. Yeah, and there's something called memo hash. And like the story I always give is the story of I was playing poker.   And I put the guy's nim   dash poker,   and then he paid with strikes. So then strike knew his nim and that he was playing poker and could correlate my note ID with the poker game. Exactly. So what's a memo hash? It's a hash of the memo instead. Right. So you put that in there, but there's still a problem of, like, okay, if you  

[01:05:54] Unknown:

write the same thing, then the same hash   would be, like, for everyone. So if everyone put 4 drugs, then, like, all you would do is hash the word 4 drugs and Right. Everyone You'd have to put some kind of salt there, like Some salt. 4 drugs 69 or something. I I like putting  

[01:06:11] Unknown:

44 100 milligrams LSD. But then why how is that even helpful for the recipient,   for the sender? Obviously, it's helpful for the recipient. Right. It's The sender can't reverse engineer the hash, so they can't see what the memo payment is. So you have to send the hash out of band, and that's the pro I think that's why it's basically unusable to use the memo hash because So you put the memo hash in band, and then you put the actual context of the memo out of band, and then the sender can verify   based on that   Yep. That it was, in fact, the real memo. Yeah. And if you wanna see this over or over or just not having a memo. Exactly. Just don't have a memo. But if you wanna see this in fact Each individual can put their own memo. Like, if I'm paying you in my wallet, I could just put I'm paying Tony. Exactly. And in your wallet, you could be, like, I'm receiving money from Matt, and we don't have to actually exchange that information. No. I would rather peep we get rid of rent memos in lightning, and whenever someone goes to pay, the sender just manually types a description, and it just saves it in their phone.  

Which is what we do with labels for on chain transactions already. Exactly.  

[01:07:11] Unknown:

It's it's not and then but if you wanna see memo hashes be done in practice, Ben Carmen,   he has,   his options for me. Coming here next week? Yeah. Awesome. Alright. So I gotta just talk someone on stream, but I think yeah. He'll be on dispatch.   Yeah.   I think he was just on Stephane LeMaire last night. So Great podcast. Episode. Yeah. I don't know what number it is. Sorry, Stephane. Stephane knows. He knows.  

[01:07:35] Unknown:

But if you wanna see him on the podcast famously, like, out of he he out of nowhere he can name any episode that he's fucking done. He's done 100.  

[01:07:43] Unknown:

Yeah.   Madman over there. But   Opera TurnBot, made by Ben Carmen, it uses the concept of memo hashes.   So if you wanna see this done in practice, like, you know, pay,   pay a memo from   opportune bots and,   see how that works.   I mean, it's a bad u x in general memo, hashes.  

[01:08:03] Unknown:

Okay. So we're getting sidetracked. So probing is sending a bunch of fake payments to learn things on the Lightning Network. Right. Whether that's fees,   how much you're holding on the Lightning Network,   or   unannounced channels existing.   Yeah. So that one was a new one. So you sent a shit ton of unannounced   shit ton of fake payments   to my node, to the dispatch node, the same node you guys used to stream stats to.   And   what was the result?  

[01:08:31] Unknown:

The result was your channel DB size grew 30 gigabytes. Right. So you denial of service attacked me with storage space. Right. I hope freaks didn't have a problem paying Matt during that time. No. Payments are still going Cool. Going great. The note is I specifically didn't jam your channels at least, so I made it a little bit lower. So I would send up to How could you jam my channels? How does that work? Oh, channel jamming.   You just hold you do a lot basically a lot of HODL   invoices Okay. And you just hold, and you exhaust all 483   HTLCs at each of your Per channel? Per channel. And then how how long does that last, that gym? I think you can go for a few days,   and then you would have to do it again,   which is not that hard. You can just keep You're gonna have it automated. Over and over and over again. So So would and so anyone can just take down any lightning node. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And Yos highlighted this about a year or 2 ago, Yos Jager.  

And I think he did the trial. He did it with, like, I think, bit refill and,   Amboss   or or just for himself.   And they did that proof of concept on main nets, and he actually went through and jammed the channels between you can you can send a payment that just keeps going around in the circle,   going through the same channels. So you don't have to send multiple. You don't even have to send multiple. Keeps taking spots. So, like, one payment, you can you can jam, like,   you can jam up to 20 h t l c slots. But this is specifically an issue with Huddl invoices?   This is just an I guess it's not I that's just the way I described it. It's not Huddl invoices themselves. It's just like I guess it is. Yeah. I mean, you it doesn't have to be an Huddl invoice per se. But Can you my point is can you disable that on your node? No. So you're you're routing,  

[01:10:18] Unknown:

and you have no idea how But why hasn't someone done this to, like, Kraken or   Bitfinex or some shit?  

[01:10:24] Unknown:

Because we don't operate under an adversarial environment. As I always say.  

[01:10:29] Unknown:

So so so you're you're you agree with me under the belief that that lightning is is kind of just,   it's been operating in this honeymoon phase, basically, where you don't have really active attackers out there.   I I would say so. And it probably won't get more robust until there's really active attacks. Right?  

[01:10:48] Unknown:

Right. So   part of my hope for some of this proven too so, okay, besides the fact that you went up your d b went up 30 gigabytes Right. I was able to find, I think, 15 or 16 different unannounced channels on your node.   I don't know if you ever went back to confirm if that's how much you had or not. I was kinda pissed off about the extra 30 gigs. I'm just like   Probably couldn't log in to your node because it was locked out.   But I intentionally didn't oh, yeah. That's why I said it. I intentionally didn't jam your channel so you can still operate. I, at most, sent, like, 450   HCLCs at once,   instead of 483.  



[01:11:21] Unknown:

Really kind of you. Yeah. You're only   you're only, like, 90% jammed my fucking channels. Right.   I I apologize. Guys should see the smile on my face. I I fucking love it.  

[01:11:34] Unknown:

So I was able to I don't know if that was all of your your your on and out channels or not, but I found some as far back as, like, 2019.  

[01:11:42] Unknown:

And the nodes are really old node. Yeah. It's a it's I like to the way I learn is I just   I like to push limits, like we said earlier on the show. So I just kind of aped into lightning. Yeah. And I just, you know, I I've learned a lot of expensive lessons since.  

[01:11:58] Unknown:

And and one of the things learn. That sucks, and I guess going back to on an like, okay. So we said we're gonna this this shows your unannounced channels. What does that actually mean? It means that the UTXO   that is backing that channel, you thought you were making it private by making it a private channel,   and you you didn't announce it to the whole network.   But then,   it gets probed out or it gets leaked in an invoice, and all of a sudden, they can see your UTXO that you You can connect the UTXO to it. Right.   The amount.  



[01:12:31] Unknown:

Do you know the active balance, like, remote versus local? Like, how much is on each of the notes? If I wanted to go that far and actually do if I did the balance  

[01:12:41] Unknown:

probing attack after doing the private  

[01:12:44] Unknown:

channel attack, the unannounced channel probing be a second attack. It would be a second attack, but I could. I could. And what? You just keep increasing the payment amount Yep. To see how much can go through. Yep. And then once I actually With all fake payments. Exactly. So presumably, you just add another attack on top of that. So you first find the private, the unannounced channel,   and then you do the balance probing version of that attack to figure out how much is on each node. Because because the way I like to think of lightning for the freaks is it's like an abacus,   which most people probably don't even know what an abacus is. It's those it's like the things they use as calculators before calculators existed where you have, like, little beads on a string. So you have some Bitcoin on one side of the channel and some Bitcoin on the other. One's controlled by one node. One's controlled by the other node.  

And natively, by the gossip protocol,   you can't  

[01:13:33] Unknown:

you can't see how much balance is on each side. But with this balance probing attack, you could. Yep. And if I wanted to, I could add another attack. So I find your unannounced channel. I see what,   how much is on either side. And then I just go ahead and jam it just to, like, put the cherry on top.  

[01:13:51] Unknown:

So first, you discover the unannounced channels, then you figure out how much money everyone has on lightning,   and then you shut down my node. Yeah.  

[01:13:59] Unknown:

And at no cost to me.   I just have to open up a bunch of channels, and I'm ready to go.  

[01:14:07] Unknown:

Well, we got a long way to go, I guess. Yeah. Oh, okay. So the positive news. Yeah. Let's hit us with the positive. The positive news. Let's get let's get cheery here.  

[01:14:15] Unknown:

This is in progress of being fixed. Nice. Yeah.   LDK has added it. I believe there's a PR for LND. I'm not sure about Corelightning   or Eclair, but they're all gonna going to add it.   It's they're calling it like this the 0 comp channel feature. So like that doesn't sound like a great feature to have   for most users. Like, no one's gonna wanna open 0 comp channels, between just, like, normal people, but it's mostly for LSPs.   But with that, they had Lightning service providers. Yeah. Lightning service providers. With that, they had to add the feature that you could make up a fake channel   ID for your unannounced channels.  

Okay. So because it like, the whole reason this is possible is because the channel ID is derived from the UTXO information. Right. So once you have the channel ID, you can figure out which UTXO opened it. So now there's for unannounced channels, there's not well, you know, once your software supports   it,   you're not gonna have to you don't docks your UTXO   based on,   the channel ID. So you can now again put it in a bunch of invoices, and they won't know what UTXOs are associated with. Still do the balance probing.   Or no? No. Because because you can't probe   the on and out channel at all, because for for 1, you also well, okay. I'll take it back a little bit. If you knew the channel ID,   it would be possible to still probe it, but you would not know what UTXO was derived from it still. You could maybe do a Wait. So you couldn't just do the probing attack that you're already doing?  

No. Because,   the way it works look. It's an channel ID is a number, basically.   And it would be too it's too hard to just guess the number because it could be any random number.   I am actually looking at every I scan the blockchain for every unspent p 2 WSA transaction Right. Which is the kind of transaction that an open lightning channel,   is.   There's about   860,000   unspent,   PHWSH   transactions. Okay. And you need it to be unspent because, like, that means it's still in a channel. Right. It's a channel open, but no closed. Exactly.   So that's the set I get to work on. Instead of, like, a number between 1 and, you know, I don't know, 2 to the power of 64,   I'm literally just dealing with, like, a binary amount, like, just a a numerical amount of probes.  

So if I wanted to scale this up, like, I think I spent, like, a day or 2 doing a complete   800,000   probes against you because we're we're also going through TOR.   It's also taking a while. Right.   Maybe The shittiness of tours. Maybe maybe my pro starting up is what made tour go shitty. I don't know. Yeah. You'd you'd you'd DDoS the tour network.   That'd be great if that's, like, what I accidentally did.   But no. So we were even going through Tor, and I think it was, like, I was only able to do, like, 5 probes a second, which is still pretty good on tour in the grand scheme of things.   What was that, like,  

[01:17:18] Unknown:

that young   or whatever that   remember when he, like,   he fucked up the multisig because he, like, called the function or something. He was just, like, fucking around, and then he posted   he posted on   the on the forum or something. He's like, I think I killed it or something. So that was Oh, yeah. It, like, shut down the entire smart contract. Yeah. Yeah. They lost a bunch of ETH on that.  

[01:17:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I It's like that, but you and Tor. Yeah. You and Tor or or me and lightning.  

[01:17:44] Unknown:

But, like, that's that's that's the thing. Wait. So just to go back here a little bit. So the probing attack as currently stated,   you're able to basically,   with a fake payment, go down those unannounced channels. But I thought you can't like, unannounced channels aren't used for routing.  

[01:18:02] Unknown:

But they Without route hints. Right. They can't, though. You can't actually use them. If you force your way through. If you force your way through. And the reason that has to be, you can say, oh, well, what if I tell my no not to just route any payment? Well,   the other no doesn't know if it's just paying you.   So it has to give you Right. That payment, and you like, you would want it to get to your node. Right. And then your node decides whether or not it was a payment. If it wasn't a real payment, then it throws it back. So then let's go back forward.  

[01:18:30] Unknown:

The   so with this change   that's   soon to be implemented,   you couldn't just do that same probe and then do some kind of, like, timing analysis on when that channel was created   with the UTXO   set?  

[01:18:50] Unknown:

No. Because   since it's not   since the channel ID is no longer derived and and and if we're moving to just random channel ID aliases,   it's too big of a number set to be able to actually   reasonably Right. Guess any a single So would you be Even if I did, even if I got I could maybe figure out that there was a channel between 2 nodes that's unannounced, but I won't know it's I won't know it's UTXO information or it's amount or any anything like that. And you but you could still balance ProBit. Right? Yes. You could still balance ProBit. So you wouldn't know what UTXO is based on, but you know the channel existed and how much Right. Was in there. So in theory, if you leaked out   that channel ID,   through an invoice,   someone with an invoice, one of your invoices   can probe that and also route down it if it wanted to.  

The main reason, honestly, to have unannounced channels in this day and age, not for privacy at all.   It's it's mostly just for the fact that   you're signaling to the network. You probably don't want to use this channel   because it's from a mobile node that's gonna   be on the it for routing. Don't use it for I'm telling you not to use it for routing. I'm asking you not to for your own benefit. You can, but, like, you're not gonna get anywhere. So what's the name of this change we're talking about? We're talking about 0 zero confirmation channels? So zero confirmation channels or   SCID   aliases.  

They're kind of the they lump together.   And but the cool thing is, like, I Would you call them  

[01:20:23] Unknown:

private channels again after this update, or would you still call them unannounced channels? I would still call  

[01:20:29] Unknown:

them unannounced channels because   I mean,   I don't know. That's a good question. Because at least you get to hide the UTX information now.   And even if you dox the fact that you have a channel,   you don't dox the UTXO. So I don't know. That's a good question.   Maybe they are gonna be private channels now. You know?   You're still telling it to your node partner, so, you know, they could, like, tell other people, I guess. But  

[01:20:56] Unknown:

But but your node partner can't tell the UTXO either that was used. No. They know.   Your node partner knows. Yeah. Your node partner knows. Even though the channel ID isn't derived from the UTXO. Correct. Yeah. Because they're both waiting on the fact Alright. They have to know. It's part of the Yeah. It's it's what Part of the trust model. Exactly. If they didn't know They're looking at the collateral as it's Right. Gonna have to be able to do the penalty transaction to take your UTXO if you fuck with them. Yeah.  

[01:21:23] Unknown:

But the cool thing is, like, besides your node, I probed,   2 other nodes, and   one of them was, the async node.  

[01:21:32] Unknown:

Okay. 1 of the largest nodes of the network. Yeah. Like, the largest node.  

[01:21:36] Unknown:

Is it the largest node? I think it The the largest node oh, per channel. Per channel it is.   I was able to find 400 How many gigs did you add to theirs? I don't well, actually, so because they're not running l and d, I don't think I added very many. Oh, because they're running async. Right.   So they were fine, and c lightning is fine, and l and d will be fine soon with some updates.  

[01:22:01] Unknown:

But I was able to find 4 105 don't even wanna be running l and d, but I I don't wanna close all my channels. I have so many channel I mean, you know better than most how many channels I have on that note. So Yeah. I know the exact number.   Okay. So sorry. You you probed the async node.  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

And I was able to find with just,   I only sent out 30,000 probes.   And I found   445 on announced channels that they had opened. How many? 445.   Okay.   Totaling over 10 Bitcoin worth.  

[01:22:31] Unknown:

Wow. Yeah.  

[01:22:33] Unknown:

And and some of them, you know, went back for a while, but, someone did some visualization   for me on some of my data. So I open sourced all of this data. The all the codes to do to do this is out there. So Where can people find that?   Hidden lightning network dot com. Great domain. Yeah. Which just redirects to a GitHub page.   Go there. All the code is there. There's, like, a data folder to or a results folder to go and find the actual data results for this.   Someone did some visualization   for me, and it actually is kinda cool. He was able to see when   all of the   channels were open and how much were opening. And it's like the start,   you know, the the I think their new,   LSP that they launched, there's a huge uptick in unannounced channels being open because they're an LSP and they're they're mobile app and it makes sense that,  

[01:23:26] Unknown:

you know, someone like them. I wanna I wanna eventually probe Breeze and But that can't be all of their unannounced channels. Right? No. They must have way more than 400. I only probed  

[01:23:36] Unknown:

30,000   out of   800.   So I did, like, what?   Out of 800,000. 800,000.   Yeah. Sorry.   I only did, like, like, a few percent. I'm not gonna try and do math right now. Yeah. I'm not. Like, a few percent. I think   that's, like, 5%.   Yeah.   And I I those 30,000,  

[01:23:56] Unknown:

less than 5%. Because 5% would be 600 k. Yeah.  

[01:24:00] Unknown:

Math. Math.   Out of that 30,000, I the reason why I got so many just from that is because I just used UTXO so it looked like they could have been lighting channels.   So, like, a very   round number that's, like, a 100,000 or a 1000000 sats. Right. The round number ones are round numbers. Round number  

[01:24:18] Unknown:

is. People love their round number channels. I know. Myself included.  

[01:24:22] Unknown:

And and then the fact that it was, like, only 1 of 2 in the change output because, like, you're not doing batch people don't batch channel open.   Right. You can now, but people don't. It's too hard, honestly, to do it.   And yeah. So everyone uses just round numbers, and it's usually the only transactions in that,   output.   Just 2. So it was able to I'm like, that's probably a high percent like, 445   channels from that 30 k. It's pretty high. Right? It's pretty high percentage wise. The rest of the,  

[01:24:54] Unknown:

you know, 800 k probably won't be the same percentage that I find, but I'll probably still find But if it was the same, I guess you could extrapolate. I mean, if we're just gonna multiply by 20   over 8,000 private channels.   Yeah. Could be. But that   it's it's even it's even it would be even more than that. It would be, like, 10,000 channels. Something like that.  

[01:25:15] Unknown:

Right. And then who knows how many Bitcoin? Maybe   50. I mean, it's an interest Why did you stop?   So I stopped because my l and d note kept fucking up. No. So a little bit about how this project works. I'm I'm using LDK   Okay. Which is really cool. I've been playing around with that for the last few months.  

[01:25:33] Unknown:

And but because I don't trust The new lightning implementation The new lightning implementation. Championed by the spiral team. Right.  

[01:25:40] Unknown:

And it's it's gone a long way. Like, a lot of people have been using it now. It's gone a long way.   You still have to do a lot. Like, there's no batteries included. So, like, you have to figure out how to create your LDK project.   And quite honestly, I didn't trust myself to just connect to any node on the network with my LDK node that I hand, like, hand built.   But shout out to Paul Miller. He helped a lot on,   on my Future Paul on Twitter. Future Paul. Go follow him.  

[01:26:09] Unknown:

Give him engagement. He's a ride or die freak too. Yeah. Love the guy. He'll be here next week. Yeah. He's gonna be on dispatch as well.   He's gonna be on dispatch. Love it.  

[01:26:20] Unknown:

But I didn't trust my LDK implementation.   So,   I connected it to my LND node at home,   but that started slowing down. That started getting fucked up. After so many payments, I had a hard time   compacting the DB. I had to fork LND,   and as advice against   from from Alex Bosworth, he said, don't I wouldn't do that.   And I'm like, I'm gonna take this PR, and I'm gonna patch it onto my LNDs. Don't do that.   I did it and it worked. I got my 30 gigabytes compacted down, like, a 128 megs.   And I'm worried about updating in the future. But it's still not merged, and they're still fixing some of the issues. But so long story short, your LND node failed while you were probing. Right. And it was in the middle of the Austin hackathon. I'm, like, trying to get this data out there to, like, be able to talk about it, and my note keeps fucking up at home. So I'm like, okay. That's it. I'm going. Whatever partial dataset. Partial dataset. It's out there. People can view it. It's actually a kind of a nice warning. I can warn people. Okay. If you actually like, I warned you a year ago with that article. But if you actually still think private channels are private,   then close your channels now if you don't wanna be probed. So,   hopefully, sometime this week, I started again. I'm gonna set up a c lightning node. Hopefully, it's more reliable.  



[01:27:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Because in the privacy game in general, every like,   there's pretty much wide agreement that, like, the worst case scenario for user privacy is when a user thinks they're private but they're not. And the thing that's gonna suck is it's better if they just assume lack of privacy and don't have privacy. Exactly. Then it's the opposite. Hide your UTXO.  

[01:27:55] Unknown:

It's like, don't   do it in a lightning channel. Right. There's other ways to do it. I think I in the article I wrote, you can go back and read some of the suggestions I have if you want privacy on lightning.   But   with this short channel ID aliasing stuff that's gonna be fixed,   you're gonna everyone's gonna have to close their private channels to take advantage of that,   and open them again.   Well, that fucking sucks. Yeah.   Well, these fees are still cheap. Yeah. So people are like, oh, well, why are you probing? This is gonna be fixed. I'm like, it'll be fixed when when I don't find any results anymore, and no one has private channels anymore.  

[01:28:31] Unknown:

Okay, freaks. Well, you heard it from Tony.   Keep all this in mind. Tony, we have a comment,   from citrinity, ride or die freak.   Fucking love these dudes. This   is a real one.   When you get a chance, would love to hear your thoughts on privacy implications of using CLboss   automated node manager to open and balance channels with, say, a large single post mix UTXO. Do you have any thoughts on this? I haven't used CL  

[01:29:00] Unknown:

BOSS,   itself.  

[01:29:02] Unknown:

Carmen says, by the way, they're adding a migration mechanism.  

[01:29:05] Unknown:

So to between l and d  

[01:29:08] Unknown:

and others. Thanks for filling the gaps here, Carmen. Appreciate it.  

[01:29:11] Unknown:

CL boss,   I don't know too much about it, but I believe   it's not using, like, a centralized server or anything. It's only using your nodes metrics to be able to try to   rebalance your channel. So I don't I don't yeah. There's not really a privacy concern there too much.   And in fact, actually, I would say, like, rebalancing channels kind of helps your privacy a little bit because you're sending payments out   down one channel, and they're succeeding.   But   those channels don't know it's coming in a different way. It's coming back to you. It's coming back to you. So it's almost like if you were to do It's a pump fake in football. Right. Pump fake or or or, what's what is it? Is it ricochet in in samurai where, like, you just send a bunch of payments amongst yourself?   You just add hops to your own Ricochet is the one that adds hops. Right. Yeah. So that would be, like, the equivalent. Like, doing rebalancing actually probably   helps your payment and onset because And in general, using lightning  

[01:30:07] Unknown:

privacy wise,   using,   a single   post coin join collaborative transaction, UTXO,   with 1 or 2   largest channels and then just getting rid of the node and starting fresh is, like, the best. Right. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we can talk about it a little bit, but,  

[01:30:27] Unknown:

me and Paul,   we worked on   PLN,   which is like we're calling it, like, the private lightning wallet. Right. So we've started that, and its only feature right now really   is   whenever you open a channel, it's it spins up a new node.   So every time That's cool. The other channel spins up a new node, You can only send, if you try to if you try to receive, you get a a funny meme pops up,   because receiving is not private.   Sending is has pretty good privacy. So it's it's like, ideally, you have one node You're calling it private lightning wallet? Mhmm. PLN. Great name. Yeah.   It it gets the job done.  

But that's its only purpose is to just spend Bitcoin. Can people use that today?   It's it we just started we just started at a hackathon, so we really only spent, like, 48 hours on it. So no.   But we do have a GitHub for it.   I think it's just bakeshop/pln.  

[01:31:23] Unknown:

So when we have Paul in, we'll talk more about that too. Yep.   So, I mean, we're at an hour and 30 minutes.   This is a fantastic grip. I always appreciate you joining us.   I'm sure I'm gonna have you on multiple times over the next week. If you would do so be here. That'd be fucking awesome.   Before we wrap up, hit us with some final thoughts.  

[01:31:50] Unknown:

Final thoughts.   I don't wanna die on the dead hill, but I think they're cool.   Lightning privacy is really hard. Join   matrix.lightninghackers.com.   Chat about some Lightning privacy stuff if you want.   And,   yeah, stay safe out there. Stay safe out there.  

[01:32:11] Unknown:

What? Lightning Hackers   is a matrix group? Mhmm. So yes. And that's on the matrix dot org server?  

[01:32:18] Unknown:

No. I'm running it myself. So it's just matrix dot   lightninghackers.com.   Okay. To to join it. Okay.   But that right. I think you can find it if you search the general,  

[01:32:30] Unknown:

because I'm on a different instance. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how that works. But it's hosted on lightning hackers.com, not matrix.orgserver.  

[01:32:36] Unknown:

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.  

[01:32:39] Unknown:

Okay. I will join that as well.   Shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat.   Real quick, BTC Waterpants   said on Twitch, I like CL boss. I wouldn't have channels without it because I'm not fucking managing them. Great comment. Nice.   I appreciate all you freaks.   Remember,   the easiest way you can support   dispatch is through podcasting 2 point o apps.   Specifically, I fucking love the boostograms and being able to send messages so I can read them.   But if you have no stats to spare,   subscribing on your favorite platform, whether that's bitcointv.com,   Twitter, Twitch, or your favorite podcast app by simply searching CIL dispatch.  

Like I said, I did put the appeal into YouTube. Don't hold your breath.   But, ideally,   it   will get overturned, so you can get notifications on YouTube. But right now, you can get notifications   on Twitch.   With all that said, I love you all. Stay on bone stack sets.