Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 65

BLOCK: 739752

PRICE: 3342 sats per dollar

TOPICS: Bitcoin Park, privacy, freedom, pain points, touching the stove, learning from mistakes, is bitcoin inevitable?, fedimints, listening is not reading

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@sethforprivacy: https://twitter.com/sethforprivacy
seth's podcast: https://optoutpod.com/
@bitvolt7: https://twitter.com/bitvolt7
nico's podcast: https://simplybitcoin.tv/

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[00:00:36] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   I know it's been a few weeks since you've last heard a dispatch.   That is on me,   but I haven't been on vacation.   I have been working around the clock   on the next chapter. Got a lot of big things planned.   First and foremost, I was in Oslo   for the Human Rights Foundation Freedom Forum.   That was an extremely rewarding experience.   You will hear more about that, in the future. I shot a small documentary series,   that we hope to have edited and released, at least the first couple of episodes soon.   So there'll be more details on that.  

In addition to that,   we have launched something called Bitcoin Park, a very special initiative   in Nashville.   It's going to be a mix of a community center and social club. We have all dedicated to Bitcoin. We have an event space.   Nash Bitcoiners,   is gonna be held here tomorrow.   Over 200 Bitcoiners will be there.   You'll be able to buy burgers with sats.   There is going to be workshops here. There's a whole co working space.   We're right near the 2 colleges,   in Nashville, Belmont, and Vanderbilt.   So we will be ideally   doing dev workshops   with,   the youth of our nation   to hopefully bring them into Bitcoin development. We'll be doing self custody workshops,   all different sorts of events here at Bitcoin Park. And in addition to that,   we have a brand new Bitcoin TV studio here, which dispatch will be broadcast from going forward.  

I'm hoping to do   more in person conversations on dispatch than through the Internet. It's always   just more enjoyable,   and I think the conversations come out better.   Starting with today's conversation,   we have oh, and, also, this is literally   I've just been setting up the studio today   all day.   It's a very minimal viable product in here right now.   So apologies to our guests who are here, but also apologies to the listeners. That is why this is the 1st dispatch without a bumper.   You know, some mainstream media clip that we can all laugh at together in 5 years does not exist on this one, and we will not be ending it with a music video.   On that note, though, I am gonna be doing another rip here for dispatch,   tomorrow that will also go live. I'm thinking that's going to be   around 1700   UTC tomorrow,   and, hopefully, I will have the setup fully set up for that,   and you will get the dispatch you know and love.  

So to the rider dive freaks out there,   I just wanna thank you again for supporting the show and keeping it ad free,   sponsor free, dedicated purely to actionable discussion.   I really do appreciate you. I couldn't do it without you.   Once again, the easiest way to support the show is go to sidledispech.com.   I have a BTC base server there. You can also use podcasting 2 point o apps, like Breeze and Fountain Podcast to stream sass to the show.   And if you remember,   at least the rider dies, remember I said 3 weeks ago   that if you use the boostogram feature on podcasting 2.0 apps, which is where you put a message   and choose how many sats you wanna send, that I will read the top ones.  

I know it has been 3 weeks, but   gotta give credit where credit's due. We have Chad Farrow here.   He   contributed 50,000 sats to the cause and says, loves the idea of reading the top boost on each episode.   I'm curious to see what the freaks have to say. FYI, a boost with the message is a boostogram, but I'm just being picky.   Thank you, Chad.   And we have Mary,   Oscar said, amazing episode. Hoping all the Fountain users can help you realize your goal of staying ad free and a 100% audience funded. He contributed 30,000 sats.   And then we have Bon who contributed 25,951   sats, very specific amount of sats.  

And he said, I started an experiment in April, and this is now the 2nd month of doing it, and I like it. I load up fountain with a Netflix subscription amount of sats every month.   Instead of streaming sats per minute, I now just boost an amount at the end of a show based on length. Shows with ads get 5 seconds per minute, and no ad shows get 20 seconds per minute. At the end of the month, if there's a balance in fountain, I then dump the remaining sats to shows with no ads.   This boost of 25951   is an example of that value for value.   And then,   vague said for 4,000 sats, stay humble. Vague.  

Thanks, vague. You're always you're always a supporter. But, anyway, if you use a podcasting 2.0 app, you can read everybody's boosts after they send them, which is pretty cool on each episode. So if you wanna support the show, that's a fun way of supporting it.   If you contribute one of the highest boosts, I will read it   tomorrow, I guess. So get those in. Maybe you can get a nice cheap one in, you know, if no one else gets it in.   Okay. So with all that said,   this is a special rip because it's the first one in the new studio, first with the new chapter.  

[00:06:01] Unknown:

I have return guest, Seth, for privacy here. How's it going, Seth? Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me on, man. I'm, really excited that worked out to to jump in, check out the new studio, and chat with you. It was nice. It was just a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding.  

[00:06:14] Unknown:

I figured out figured out he was in town.   Was it was it last night or this morning? Figured out this morning you were in town. Yeah. I think this morning. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Love to see that happen. And then we have Nico  

[00:06:25] Unknown:

bit volt 7 from Simply Bitcoin here. How's it going, Nico? What's up, man? I'm super happy to be here. I just wanna say Matt completely undersold the studio.   I've never heard better acoustics in my life. There's literally no   was it reverb? What? Echo, reverb, anything. Yep. There's no echo. It's it's perfect. I love it.  

[00:06:46] Unknown:

But, I mean, the irony thank you, Nico. The irony of Nico saying that is I do have him on a   I have him on a wireless mic. So if he's a little bit lower, worse sound quality than me and Seth,   don't hold it against him. That is that is my fault. I take personal responsibility for that. And,   if we didn't completely bankrupt ourselves on Bitcoin Park, we'd invest in some some new mics,   for the 3rd and 4th guest because I wanna have I think I really like party episodes. I wanna have more party rips in here. Yeah.   I feel like it's a really good room for party rips. Yeah. You could do a big group in here.  

So what do you guys think of Bitcoin Park? I, like, gave you both the tour.  

[00:07:26] Unknown:

I, had no idea where I was pulling up. Uber dropped me off, and it's, yeah, it's pretty mind blowing. I mean, this place is perfectly set up for a lot of stuff that you've been doing and and obviously want to do,   but it really looks like a a haven for   Bitcoiners and and just really kinda freedom loving people. So excited to see where the cafe goes, where all the event space Yeah. We have a fucking cafe.  

[00:07:47] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I'm pretty excited. I'm I'm bummed, Seth, that you won't be here for NASH Bitcoiners. But,  

[00:07:54] Unknown:

I know. I may have to see if maybe I can move my flight or something. We'll see. Because it would be pretty sweet to be able to tag along while I'm in town anyways. Yeah. You should consider it. It's a good time. It's gonna be Nico's first time. He's gonna fucking love it.  

[00:08:06] Unknown:

It's a special group of people that you have that come here. I might move out here. This place is awesome.  

[00:08:12] Unknown:

The the the the this is a complex. I mean, it is that's what it is. You gotta call it for what it is.   I'm just excited to see how this plays out.   I think when Bitcoin, we always say, you know, Bitcoin is going to take over and all that. I think this is part of the process, man. I think this is definitely a step up.  

[00:08:32] Unknown:

Gonna move into that producer studio right back there. This lay down Yeah. Just give me a closet. I'll be happy. We got a bunch of couches here. Perfect.  

[00:08:40] Unknown:

Well, anyway, we'd love to have you. So, I mean, I just like both of you guys, so I   don't really have any someone asked me what the topic of today's conversation was, and I just don't have a topic.   We just have a new studio, and it's a Bitcoin Tuesday, and the freaks haven't heard from dispatch in 3 weeks. So   you guys are both in town. I just kinda made it happen.   Well, I guess before we get started, I didn't chill the matrix chat. If you're not on the matrix chat, go to dispatch.com   and, click that dot   chat button. Even though we haven't   had a dispatch in 3 weeks, that conversation in that chat has   been fucking fire as usual. So if you're in that chat,   not only are you participating in the live chat for the shows,   but there's also just really great discussion on privacy, freedom, and Bitcoin   in that chat.  

Yeah. So, I mean, where do you guys wanna start? Do you have something you wanna talk about? Or  

[00:09:43] Unknown:

I just wanna do, like, a notable mention,   because I saw it, and I think it'd be   interesting to get your guys' opinion.  

[00:09:50] Unknown:

The Lummus bill. Right? Oh, that's a fun thing to talk about.  

[00:09:54] Unknown:

I didn't get a chance to look into the details. But,   I don't know. What do you what do you guys think the look, I'm not a fan of government of regulation, but   I don't know. What what are your guys' opinion on this? I have no I don't know what to think because I haven't looked into it.  

[00:10:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I haven't I haven't read the bill. I mean, obviously, like I said, it it just dropped, and she's been kinda teasing it for a few days now.   Definitely always wary of stuff like that. I mean, I think,   a way that the state could kind of prevent a lot of Bitcoin's power and a lot of Bitcoin's good use cases is just trying to kind of co opt it and fold it back into a broken system. So I'm I'm very wary of, like, state sponsored pro Bitcoin stuff.   But that's not to say that good things can't happen through regulation. It's just that regulation,   especially cryptocurrency focused regulation, is usually   a tool that gets used against freedom and doesn't promote it.  

But like I said, I I know nothing about this bill specifically, so I'll have to dig in and and see a little bit more of that. I guess it literally got released this morning. Yeah.  

[00:10:55] Unknown:

I mean, I tend like, in general, what Seth what Seth said is kind of where I stand. I always say, like, when you see, like, the headline, like, breaking Bitcoin legalized somewhere, what it really means is is just, like, Bitcoin users in that country now have even more overbearing k y c regs. Yeah. It's usually the case.   In this case, I did read through it briefly.   First, I will say   not to be a Debbie Downer, but   probably zero chance this thing gets passed. But it's still good to see that it was proposed, and it was I'm not a big politics guy, but it was proposed. Lummis did it with Gillibrand, and Gillibrand is a big on the progressive side. So republican woman,   democrat woman together to the bill. Good to see.  

But the one thing that was in it that was   I I really liked seeing was   a de minimis tax exemption. So Bitcoin spends under $200,   which is a very low amount regardless, but   at least it was in there. Right? This idea that, you know, you shouldn't be if you're just using this as a currency day to day.   And And it's not even just the, you know, actually   paying taxes. I think a lot of people   support paying taxes if it's   being spent efficiently or whatnot.   It's the mental cost of actually, like, every time you you do a,   you know, $5 transaction or $6 transaction or something,   that you have to, like, keep track of it and and do that. So that was good to see,   but,   I kinda just saw that part, and I was like, oh, well, that's that's awesome. And then I just didn't really read the rest because I was setting up the studio this morning.  

The other thing that was really cool that came out today   or I maybe even cooler than than that because I don't know if that's the coolest thing,   is Gladstein and a bunch of activists basically did   did you see the   the tech innovators? I'm doing quote, unquote tech innovators that, like, post it they, like, sent a letter to congress. Yeah. And they were like, Bitcoin and cryptocurrency   is is just bad for people. And   they were like most blockchain projects have horrible privacy and the ones that do are safe havens for money launderers. Like they just like attacked on both sides, like damned if you do damned if you don't, and they were like, stifle us with heavy regulations.   Gladstein and, like, 19   human rights activists from around the world   basically did the opposite of that letter today to US Congress. And I think it was financial inclusion dot tech is where that letter is. Yeah. Shout out to David Zell of the Bitcoin Policy Institute.  



[00:13:33] Unknown:

Absolutely crushing it.   That I always say this,   they function as the Bitcoin lobbying arm. That's really what they do, and I think that   in the next couple of years,   it's gonna   it's gonna be very important. Every time I talk to David, I'm like, when are you gonna move to DC?   And he absolutely hates that question because I think he think he knows it's inevitable.   He's a Nashville boy. He is a Nashville boy, but you gotta you gotta get into the heart of the swamp, you know, to deal with the creatures.   So, yeah, shout out to That sounds like a horrible life. It totally   ends. That's what it is. That's what it is. But, but someone's gotta do it. That's the thing. Maybe, like, Zelle hires someone underneath him to do it. This someone's gotta do it. Someone has to do it. And it can't be coin center. Okay? Because they totally dropped the effing ball, even though Jerry Brito, I know he works hard,   but I think it's important that   Bitcoin has its own  

[00:14:29] Unknown:

lobbying arm. It's kinda cool that there's a bunch   like, I'm   I,   the whole lobbying politics thing is something that I I think the whole point of Freedom Tech is that you can ignore that shit. Yeah. But it is good to see that there are so many there's there's multiple now Bitcoin only lobbying firms that aren't, like, focused on DeFi and tokens. And I think during the transition,  

[00:14:52] Unknown:

they're gonna be very important.   Because, look, whether we like it or not, I think fiat's gonna be around   for a good amount of time. Right? So until we get into a Bitcoin standard, I think,   you know, as much as Bitcoiners hate politics and whatever,   I'm a strong believer in look. I'd rather have these as many of these people on our side, then   have some adversarial people. Right. So that's kind of the logic that I have, even though I   I think politics is a shit coin, and, hopefully, Bitcoin makes it irrelevant.  

[00:15:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely one of the ways always those interesting pieces because, like, lobbying has obviously a lot of bad   connotations, and people understand that it it's something that's leveraged for a lot of very, very negative things   kind of in the political world. So doing it for Bitcoin has always been a weird kind of paradox for me. I I understand the point, and it's one of those things where, like,   I would never get involved in it, but, like, I have respect for the people who do it and do it well and are actually trying to promote   things that promote freedom and not just kind of fitting Bitcoin into a broken system. So I think there is a space for that and, like, especially the explanations to people to get them to understand, like, what Bitcoin actually is.  

But I definitely do think we need to be   be wary that we don't kind of just get slowly boiled in a regulatory   pot   where they're able to kinda slowly take control and make it so that, yeah, you can have your Bitcoin, but you can't use it the way you want. Because, ultimately, if we lose that that freedom money, that freedom tech piece of it, we're losing what Bitcoin ultimately brings to us.   So that's always where, like I think there's a hard line to to ride there, but there's definitely been some some interesting and good work done   specifically on educating people within the government and educating   people who are big names at least on what Bitcoin is.  



[00:16:48] Unknown:

I,   I mean, so Gladstein I was just in Oslo,   and Gladstein,   He, like, got a bunch of, the activists and some some Bitcoiners and brought them to Norwegian parliament to educate them.   And I was not invited.   And I'm pretty sure it's like every Bitcoiner has different strengths or whatever, and he was just like, he's gonna walk into Norwegian parliament and just be like, fuck all of   you.   I don't want your regs. I don't want you involved.  

[00:17:18] Unknown:

Probably not the per the perfect person to   be the pro regulatory  

[00:17:22] Unknown:

Bitcoin person. I mean, but that's the beauty of this kind of thing. Right? Is that is that Bitcoiners find, you know,   what they can   contribute, and and they help everyone has their different skill sets, and they focus on different things.  

[00:17:35] Unknown:

And I think it's it's a very optimistic   approach too. I I think, like, one of the reasons why I trend against   the regulatory   lobbying, all of that,   is because I I guess maybe I'm a little bit less optimistic about the way that a tool like this   can work in the current system. But I I do like that, like, there's a lot I think there's a lot of optimism in the people who see that that maybe   Bitcoin can fit in as a tool to to slowly improve the system rather than, like, burning it to the ground because, like, anarchy has a lot of problems.   So if we can do it in a way that's   peaceable and slow and yet still get the most out of Bitcoin and and the things that it can bring as a tool, I think there there may be value in that, and it's a very optimistic view. I I just and I I think that, you know, part of the reason that Bitcoiners  

[00:18:20] Unknown:

well, let me speak for myself better said.   I think that we know deep down inside that   if a politician supports Bitcoin, what they're really doing,   whether it's directly or indirectly, they're they're really   sacrificing their power,   then they're giving it up.   So I mean, the people that are meant to so called regulate the industry,   the incentives are not aligned whatsoever.   That's kind of the way that I see it.   Obviously, you know, there's some, but I think that a lot of a lot of these   bureaucrats are   their parasites, and they feed off the   the fiat system, so they're not incentivized for that system to go anywhere. And these are the same people that are supposed to regulate.  

Like,   I don't know. That that's how I feel about it.  

[00:19:12] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think definitely a little bit of pushback there on my end. I mean, I   I don't know. I don't know that they are trying to give up power as part of that, and I think most of them there are probably some ones that are   very   that very much want to bring freedom through politics, which are very, like, good,   sincere people. They're few and far between in the political world, but there are some there.   But I think   Bitcoin can very much be leveraged as a tool to continue their power. It's not something that just, if we do nothing,   will break down a broken system and bring a perfect world. And I think that's   one of the traps that I see a lot of Bitcoiners and other people. I mean, I even think people in other projects,   talking in a way that kind of like, kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable   thing. And I think that can lead to a lot of dangerous things, like the current   very KYC friendly,   crowd that has a lot of big winners, but really just a lot of people in the whole cryptocurrency space, very per regulation.  

Many are pro chain analysis, which is absolutely nuts, but there are many people that are like that. And a lot of that stuff comes from   politicians who know that they can actually turn Bitcoin into a tool that, if nothing else, does nothing to break down their power,   and in some ways, could even improve it. And I think, like, the KYC StackSats thing is a an example of that because it   it feels like   what, Matt?  

[00:20:36] Unknown:

I I just gave stuff to look. I don't know. I just feel like  

[00:20:40] Unknown:

Stack Sats is is a bigger meme than KYC Stack No. No. That's why I was trying to be specific. I was trying to be specific because, like, people who are stacking sets in a way that is KYC free and, like, they're using Bisque. They use Or miners. Deco. Yeah. Or miners. Shop owners. All those all those are, like to sellers the right way to approach it. Yeah. Building circular economy, great way to stack sats working for Bitcoin.   There are are really good ways to do it, but I was trying to be specific in, like that I'm I'm talking bad about the KYC stack sets. Like, you just set up your your dollar cost averaging, and you walk away. Post the screenshots on Twitter.   Exactly. Of how much you just bought in Cash App every every 3 hours.  

That I think just that kind of thing, people can get pulled into this trap of thinking Bitcoin is inevitable. And even though I sacrifice all of the freedom principles that I care about now, if I do it and have more Bitcoin, that's gonna fix the world, and that's gonna fix my future.   And I think that's definitely something we should be wary of and and is something where that could be leveraged to be an easy trap for the few people who actually are freedom focused because then, man, I know Matt's talked about this a ton. This is a common topic is how KYC can link to a nice tidy list of Bitcoiners that they can go to. Most are just gonna give in, and and the few that fight, they're gonna now have their their name on a list and all that. So I think just a little pushback on that idea and a lot of what I hear about the kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable   thing and and sacrificing   for that Bitcoin is inevitable beam, I think, is is a a dangerous value problem. So one sec. So the first thing is,  

[00:22:12] Unknown:

circular economy. The idea of bootstrapping a circular economy is something,   that I've become very passionate about, and I think there's a lot of momentum there.   And it's one of the focuses with the Bitcoin Park initiative.   And, also, this idea of, like, these grassroots Bitcoin communities popping up, like, it's really fucking cool, all these meetups that are just growing around the world, and they're they're happening at a time when everyone was locked down and most people weren't seeing each other. But these Bitcoin communities were growing, and they they all pretty much grew organically. There's not, like, a top down thing that's happening.   So, ultimately,   on the KYC conversation, I always   kinda go back to,   it seems mostly like it's a pain point of our current position in the adoption cycle because most people will not be buying Bitcoin in the future. They will they will be earning Bitcoin, and most people will not be selling Bitcoin. They'll be spending Bitcoin.  

I actually I forget who said it, but someone said, like, a good   I don't love the meme.   I actually love the meme, we're still early, but I don't love the comment, we're still early. But someone made an interesting comment,   that as long as you're buying Bitcoin and selling Bitcoin, you're still early because 99% of people that interact with Bitcoin for the lifetime of Bitcoin   will not be buying or selling it. They'll be earning or spending it.   And I don't think we're late. I think everyone who comes into Bitcoin   always thinks they're late. Like, I thought I was late when I came in. But I wanna point the question at Nico because   this is something that I've drunkenly been asking Bitcoiners a lot. All over us, I was asking this. The question is, is Bitcoin inevitable?  



[00:23:50] Unknown:

Absolutely. I think that   the sorry to push back a little bit on stuff. For it. I think that the incentives   are   irresistible.   A good example of that,   in my opinion, I think this was the 2nd biggest stress test that Bitcoin ever endured.   And it passed it   with such flying colors that if you weren't plugged into Twitter   or you weren't checking the hash rate or you weren't checking the news, if you were just using Bitcoin, you would have you would have had no idea.   And that is the Chinese Communist Party   banned Bitcoin mining   within its borders   without any central authority or nothing.  

The Hash rate decentralized went all over the world. There's a bit of a concentration in the US. I don't like that way too much in the US.   No coercion. It was all incentives. And the incentive is so strong,   that in China,   it's estimated that between 10 to 20 percent of the hash rate is still located in there. That means that there's Chinese that are risking to lose it all, or the government themselves or corrupt corruption   that are still mining it. And that's the incentives. That's how strong the incentives are. And I think that   government money, specifically CBDCs,   will own they'll have to rely on coercion.  

So   I, in my in my head, the equation is simple, right? I think incentives are much stronger than coercion.   And I think that over the long run, that will prevail.   But that doesn't mean that   specifically in totalitarian governments   that don't wanna give up that that power.   They're gonna try whatever it takes,   use whatever coercive measures,   whether that's,   try to   make it on the App Store where every single wallet that you use is KYC or some BS because you know they're gonna try that or try to ban selfless app. Store attacks haven't really happened yet. That's definitely gonna  

[00:25:55] Unknown:

That's 1,000%.   I feel like 90% of Bitcoin users, if their Bitcoin wallet gets removed from the app store, they can be like, oh my god. What the hell's going on? It's gone. And what worries me and what keeps me up at night. Right? So, again, so to answer your original question Yes. Right, it's inevitable.  

[00:26:10] Unknown:

And to kind of pivot a little bit, if I'm if I may, you could your floor is yours, bro.   We were talking about this a little bit when we were having those delicious burgers.   Dude,   I would scares me   is people I don't think people are ready for self custody. They're just not Like, I don't think they're ready for that. Like,   and I see it in people's faces, especially like the older generation. I'm like,   you just gotta write down those 24 words. You gotta put them on metal. You gotta put it in the safe plan of their life.   They're they've been so in the matrix for the majority of their lives, the fiat matrix,   that you just shock them with this, like, better system. My opinion, it's a lot easier and a lot safer   that   their brains just can't compute it. And I think the vast majority of the world is like that. Are you telling me that that person, El Salvador, is selling those pupusas   knows how to properly store their seed?  



[00:27:05] Unknown:

Or they use they might be using a mobile wallet that is self custody, but that's a lot of trust and that but they might not be actually backing it up. They're probably not using their own node.  

[00:27:14] Unknown:

That's a lot of trust. And when trust is involved, governments could exploit that. Right? You get a government agency's like, okay,   only government approved   wallets in the App Store. And then you start exactly where where you started.   Right? This is the whole FDR thing over again. Right? You give me your gold. And I'll give you this dollar. I promise it's backed by gold. Right? So we're we're right where we started. So I think that   the the fight for self custody and the educational thing is so important. And I think that that's something that they're definitely going to attack, just how they're attacking proof of work right now.   I think that the next inevitable step is attacking the right to self custody,   because it's such a revolutionary  

[00:27:57] Unknown:

thing. That was in the Lummis bill.   Self custody? The right to self custody. That's Polish. The right to self custody, the terminology was digital assets. Hold your own digital assets.   So she they were definitely on point on that to have that on. I mean, I look. At the end of the day, right, this whole movement is a movement of personal responsibility,   and most people   have lived their whole lives   shirking as much personal responsibility as possible. Like, our society is literally set up in a way   to have the least amount of personal responsibility   to to to even, like, little things, right, where   every I mean, everyone's getting sued for everything, you know, because it's never someone's   own personal fault   that something happened. There's always, like, 3 people you can blame that might have big money bags that you can hit them with. Or,   yeah, just every single aspect of our society lacks personal responsibility, and it's gonna take a while for people to   to learn to take personal responsibility back.  

And I'm   this weird pessimist optimist where, like, my optimistic take is always that   children need to touch the stove, and, like, people learn   by getting burned. Right? So I expect a lot of fucking pain,   and but then, ultimately, people learn and get rewired a bit into how they handle it. And, I mean, I was talking to you earlier   about my conversation with Dario   of Moon Wallet with 2Us.   And,   you know, he's from Argentina, and he just there was, like, all these Argentinians, and a lot of them use stable coins,   which, you know, everyone has different threat models. Everyone has different things that they're working on. But the most important thing to me when people are using these tools is that they understand the trade offs. And he was he   he had spent years trying to educate people on the trade offs of using stable coins and centralization   risk,   and a lot of them got burned on Terra.  

They were all holding Terra because they thought that was the decentralized stablecoin, quote, unquote, compared to Tether,   and they all lost all their money overnight. And that did more for education of the risks of centralized,   you know, centralized   currencies   than any kind of education effort that ever came before that. Right. But the unfortunate part is that people got burned.   To the inevitable point, I kind of fall in between the 2 of you.   I honestly do believe Bitcoin's inevitable.   I'm just   I don't believe freedom money   is inevitable. I don't believe Bitcoin as freedom money is necessarily inevitable. I think   Bitcoin is code, and at the end of the day, it's a movement of people and relies on people to actually stand up and fight for their freedom   and defend their rights,   and use the tools.  

There's a very real possibility to me   that, you know, Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency of the world, that the purchasing power is significantly higher than it is today.   But maybe 5% are actually using it in, like, a freedom sovereign way, and 95% of people are just using it in a completely cucked way.   And so, I mean, that nuance, I don't think, is ever really captured in the Bitcoin is inevitable conversation.  

[00:31:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really good middle ground. I think that's probably even closer to where I fall than I had thought about,   just that, like, the   Bitcoin, the chain, Bitcoin, the currency is   I feel like we're probably at that point where it's not it's not gonna disappear. Like, I don't think Bitcoin's gonna die. I don't think it's gonna   fail in a catastrophic way, but, yeah, that way of, like, what is its   success in quotes actually mean in the future, I think, is a very important question. And that's where a lot of the the questions around   mining centralization,   around private usage, around lightning, around all of these, around self custody, all of these topics, I think, are vital to decide   what is this future that has Bitcoin in it, whether that's a Bitcoin standard, hyperbitcoinization,   or just Bitcoin being another thing that's part of the the current system?  

How how are people who actually do wake up, who do get burned, who do realize the necessity of of personal freedom and financial freedom, specifically?   What can they actually get out of Bitcoin?   And I think that's where a lot of the a lot of the wake up calls for people need to come in those situations where people get burned. I think, like, the Freedom Convoy was a great example of people getting burned, and I think a lot of Bitcoiners woke up to some of the the issues with Bitcoin privacy and with the approach to using Bitcoin for that specific use case and the things that that go into that, the OPSEC, all of that. But I think more and more scenarios like that are going to happen,   and it's really going to be those are gonna be the deciding moments in how useful will Bitcoin be and how much   change will it bring for those people who do wake up, based on how we respond in those situations.  

So I'm   I hope that Bitcoiners stay open to feedback, stay open to the possibility of Bitcoin not succeeding perfectly,   so that we can keep an eye out for the things that we need to focus on, the things that need to be improved, the things that need extra dev time, the things that need,   potentially changes on chain, like, whatever needs to happen to make this the most useful thing. People kinda need to stay open to that. But it'll be it'll be interesting to see what the next kind   of touching the burner moment is because, ultimately, I mean, the the same applies for Bitcoin. It applies for personal privacy. It applies in almost every area where self responsibility is involved.   You something has to make you decide, I actually want to put in the time and effort and be responsible   because I know that what I gain from it is far more important.  

And so that's something where I'm curious what the next kinda moment of that is with Bitcoin.   The North American mining centralization   coupled with the push against proof of work should be scaring people, I think. I don't know. I would love if they if they,  

[00:33:36] Unknown:

put mining restrictions in America.  

[00:33:38] Unknown:

Yes. That would actually probably be kind of bullish because specifically, it'd be the warehouse public companies that got fucked. Mhmm. And then you know what's everyone's gonna do? They're gonna turn up that old s 9, and they're gonna spin it up in their garage. It'll be great.   But I kind of wanted to add to that thing. You're talking about burning   your finger on the stove.   So   what I've noticed, I've picked up a pattern.   And it's a very striking pattern. And   look,   you try to convince someone about Bitcoin and they live in a western country, to use Gladstein's own words, they have financial privilege,   Very hard sell. They're like, to use too much energy,   I have Cash App. I have PayPal, Venmo. I was like, why does that need to exist?  

I pitch a Venezuelan or a Latino team. I say,   nongovernment   money that is hard to confiscate that can't be debased. And   in 10 seconds, they say, how do I sign up? Because the difference between the two is that as an American,   specifically in the in the beginning, you see Bitcoin as an investment.   Whereas in the Argentine,   the Venezuelan, the Afghani,   right,   they see it as a necessity.   They don't have another option.   And this is kind of the tragedy of stable coins. Right? And this is why I'm like   hate is a strong word, but I'll use the word, whatever that word is, below hate.   I don't like them because they provide   they   they prove they give this sense they give a false refuge.  

And and, Matt, you were actually   telling us a story about the Argentines using Luna because they bought into the whole tether fund.   And they got totally wrecked. And here's the thing, stable what?   It's stable on the way down?   Is stable 2%   like lose money slowly? Is that stability? Or is in Bitcoin? It's like, fine. Yeah, it's volatile.   But you look at the purchasing power of Bitcoin over 2 or 3 years, that thing's just going up.   So the how do we convince more people specifically in countries that actually need it, right? And I would say in the West, they need it too, but they just haven't found that out yet.   How do we convince people   to stay away from these,   these false safe havens   and actually   use something that will actually give them financial sovereignty.  

That that I think is is a very difficult problem to solve. But I think that I think it's a solvable problem.   Because the incentive like, they're incentivized to understand something like that, right? Because in the in the United States, you're not incentivized,   Right? Like you, let's say you get a you have a good job, you have a good salary.   You know, you have your 401k.   Like okay, yeah, I like Bitcoin. It's cool, but you don't really understand the revolutionary   aspect unless like,   you know, you start asking a little bit of questions, right?   But the Venezuelan   the the personnel Salvador selling pupusas is a whole other   whole other debate.  



[00:36:41] Unknown:

I mean, so there's a couple of things here. First of all,   just a little bit of history lesson for Bitcoiners.   A lot of Bitcoiners think that stablecoins   were   something that was, like, added   post Bitcoin. But, really, if you look at most of the pre   cypherpunk money   before Bitcoin,   they all basically ended up having a trusted third party that was that had some kind of USD in a bank account or some kind of pegged value.   The novel thing about Bitcoin is that you actually have this this bearer token that exists only in the digital realm.   So you're actually able to eliminate that final centralized third party.  

So I mean, and just in general, I think that's probably where most people heads go first. Right? Which is okay, I want digital money, and I want it to be the same money that I want already. Right? That's a whole different education   thing that I don't even know   if it necessarily needs to be a top down education or even a grassroots education. Like I think that's just   that's a reframing of what you think about money, which is that that money is is not something that's issued by a state or corporation.   It's something that exists on its own in this in this digital realm.  

The idea of being able to send payments   around the world   with minimized   trusted third parties and minimize censorship is something that people can grasp really quickly, which is why I think stable coins have been very successful, particularly in parts of the world where their own government currency is fucking horrible. So they're like, okay. I can and they a lot of these people, they can't use, like, PayPal. They can't use,   Western Union or something because they get blocked out.   The other thing is so when I was in   one of the interviews I did for this this documentary series that's coming out is with Roya.  

And Roya started she's from Afghanistan. In 2010, she started,   I might butcher their name, but I think it's called Citadel Software Company.   Way ahead of the curve on the Citadel meme.   I asked her how she was way ahead of the curve, and she started it in a town that had like an old Afghani citadel in it. So   she had a very good reason to use that. But   her big thing was empowering women in Afghanistan. She was a woman in Afghanistan. She wanted to empower women in Afghanistan.   80% of her employees were women in Afghanistan,   and these women aren't weren't allowed to have bank accounts. They needed permission from a man or a family member to have bank accounts.  

They were completely excluded from the financial system in their society.   So the sell for Bitcoin, like you said, when you talk to, like, Venezuelans or Argentinians, was a very it wasn't even a sale. They had no other option. They had this need. They they wanted to get paid. They wanted to be able to hold their own value,   So they moved to Bitcoin. So in 2013, she started paying them in Bitcoin.   She did massive education campaigns   throughout the country, but they were all mostly focused on women because the women were excluded from the financial system.   She had a good friend who rose.  

He became a very,   powerful politician in Afghanistan.   And they would have these, like, spirited debates on Bitcoin. And he's like, our financial system is the best it's ever been in Afghan history.   There's no need for me to use this thing that's, like, super volatile, blah blah blah.   Taliban come into power,   take over everything. They seize all of his assets,   seize absolutely everything he owns. He he escapes from the country,   like, by foot across the border with just a backpack.   Gets the other side, him and Roya start talking. He's like, I completely see why Bitcoin should exist. Right? And but he so so you have this situation where one of the cool parts about Bitcoin to me is the disadvantaged   see the the power of this technology first. Right?  

Because the people that are in power, the people that benefit from the current financial system   have no need to see it. They're gonna get burned at a later date.   But, ultimately, it's inevitable for for people to find the need somewhere to get canceled out of these systems somewhere.   Absolutely.   She's awesome, by the way. Rory is really inspiring.  

[00:40:46] Unknown:

She sounds she sounds like an OG.  

[00:40:48] Unknown:

The OG of the OG. Even came up with Citadel because there was natural Citadel. The Citadel software company. How cool is that fucking name? That's great. While I was interviewing, I was like, yeah. I have another show, Citadel Dispatch, but, unfortunately, that's not the one we're recording on right now. It would've been too fucking perfect.   I wanna go back to   the Freedom Convoy,   because I think this was a pivotal thing on the western side of the world Mhmm.   That I thought was gonna be a   like, I thought when people go back and they're like, what are   the biggest events that happened   in Freedom Technology   in general or Bitcoin in general   over the last year, Freedom Convoy would be probably the top thing that someone said. But I think if you ask the majority of people right now,   they might not even remember that it happened.  



[00:41:38] Unknown:

Just like most people don't   know that the hash rate   migration,   but they don't know unless you   have your finger on the pulse. Right.   I, you know, I know I have a different opinion   than you, Matt.   But I think it was a very big   middle finger because it was like, there's definitely a middle finger, dude, the state couldn't because state couldn't seize all of it.   Like, they they didn't get their way. The the they only got their way. I think it was, like, on 20%.   Right? And they scared the crap out of a lot of people, but   the vast majority is nonrecovered.  

Like, when the hell that never happens. Yeah. But the I mean  

[00:42:18] Unknown:

so, so, like, with GoFundMe, they, like, pressed a button and and just all the money was taken. Right? So, like, with Bitcoin, you can't do that.   But most of the public organizers of that freedom convoy  

[00:42:30] Unknown:

are engaged in civil lawsuits right now with the government for 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars. What about So I don't think that story is over yet necessarily. Right? It's not over, but what about all the other unknowns that people the I would say, you know, this is why every time I see Ben, like, I'm like, dude, you're the man. And I was actually really lucky because   I was on the first podcast   that he did when he got back.   When he when he stopped podcasting for a while, he stopped doing his his show. I love the show.   Stopped doing it for a while, man. And he first he came back.  

1st show he did. It was me and James Lavish. And dude,   like   you, the look on his face is like he went to war.   But how many people benefited because of his actions?   And if this is really a revolution, like we say, we like, we say it is,   isn't this part of it? Isn't this part of fighting for freedom?   I don't know my and again, like, I'm I understand. And I might be a little bit biased here because   I come   from   I come from a country that was destroyed by collectivism,   or Venezuela, and I come to America.   And it's the last bastion of freedom.   And when I see people attacking that,   I react very negatively,   more so than someone that grew up here,   because they don't understand how bad things could get.  

So   I really see it from that angle, and I really appreciate all those guys, Jeff Booth, Greg Foss,   BT, Ben. There's a couple others, man. Nobody Caribou.   Yeah. They they they are warriors.   They in this different type of war that we're fighting. It's not a kinetic war. It's a different type of war. I   can't really describe it.   But,   yeah, they're they're they're legends, man. Even if they're even if it's not known to most people, I I think that   history will show otherwise.  

[00:44:32] Unknown:

What's your take here, Seth?  

[00:44:34] Unknown:

I mean, I think the I think it's mostly forgotten because it doesn't mean anything to people who are just in Bitcoin for financial gain. Like, the the speculators could care less that the Freedom Convoy happened.   I think there is something to say even if you are just a speculator that if   Bitcoin didn't succeed   in that scenario, and I definitely would not say that Bitcoin succeeded in that scenario or that Bitcoiners did. I'm I'm definitely much more on the   the negative side of that whole thing, but I I think it it should be a it should have been, and I think it was not as much of a wake up call as I expected. But I think it should have been a wake up call to people that Bitcoin in its current state   is not   an amazing tool for freedom in these use cases. And we saw I think a lot of the problems came down to just poor OPSEC and poor decisions,   and that applies no matter what currency or cryptocurrency you're using. Of it wasn't even Bitcoin related. Right? Like, there's the fact that Nikko just rattled out all the names that were involved. Yeah. Everyone who was involved, so they videoed all of the truckers who they gave funds to with their truck info and everything. Like, I mean, all that stuff was   a major mistake if you actually wanted those people to be able to use those funds freely and not get tracked down.  

But I think we also saw saw with Bitcoin, like, yes, the some of the funds were not complicated as far as we know. We actually don't know if any of them are free and being used.   We know that soon afterwards, 75% had not been moved from the wallets they've been sent to. All of this is transparent on chain. All of the wallet or wallets are tagged. Every output is blacklisted.   We know that 75% hadn't been moved, so they hadn't been claimed by the people who'd they had been given to. And then we know 20 to 25%   were confiscated because they were sent to KYC exchanges, where the exchanges obviously are   cooperating and and giving over names, IDs, and Like, talk about it talk about an education short fall when you have truckers who are, you know, fighting an oppressive government, and they send it to Coinbase. But the the problem and I think the real problem comes down to what you mentioned earlier about needing to drive circular economies. Because the problem was you give out this Bitcoin to people, which I think is a it's a fascinating idea and   very well meaning. But you give all these Bitcoin to truckers who,   all the politics aside, they needed fuel, they needed food, they needed real life things, and you gave them Bitcoin where there's no circular economy   for the most part. There is some like, maybe they could have used, like, Bitrefill or something. Did you see my tweet at the time, my idea?  



[00:46:52] Unknown:

That, like, if we normalize protesters raising   Bitcoin donations,   we should also normalize   Bitcoiners going to protest for no KYC free sets. Yeah. Yeah. If you just show up to a protest with, like, 500 local fiat, you know, and  

[00:47:06] Unknown:

you just you just find a protester that has a bunch of Bitcoin they need to get rid of? That would have been perfect. I mean, they needed people who could have taken Bitcoin and fill a gas pump, like, pay for the gas pump. Right. There's   that's one of the other problems is, like, if we have no circular economy, in those scenarios, Bitcoin's kind of useless. Because you can store value, but you can't actually spend it and get real life things. We have, like, the stepping stone stuff, like,  

[00:47:28] Unknown:

the gift cards. Right? Like, so with, like, Yeah.   They might hate me for say well, their lawyers will hate me for saying this. But, like, the Bitcoin company, you can buy Visa cards   via lightning.   Right? So, like, those truckers,   even with blacklisted UTXOs, they could have opened or, like, if if if someone goes there and and gives them cash for their Bitcoin, and they're a Bitcoiner that knows what they're doing, they can then,   you know, spend via lightning to the Bitcoin company. The Bitcoin company doesn't know which UTXO has opened,   that channel,   and then,   have a Visa gift card where they can spend everywhere. Like, is that is that ideal? No. That's not ideal, but That would have been the best case for me. Talking about it all the time because, like, the Monero community loves coin cards. Right? Yeah. No. And it's a stop gap that is useful.  



[00:48:18] Unknown:

And that's what I that's what I was saying. Like, that's the only thing they really could have done is convert to gift cards and use those. Although, to be honest, then wouldn't the better solution be just giving them cards and not Well, no. That's the problem. It's hard to give them gift cards. Right? It's easy to send Bitcoin around the world. It would be hard for well but people could have donated Bitcoin, and then they just bought gift cards and handed that out to truckers with the donation. Idea. Or, like, take the Bitcoin and just buy   fuel and shit the truckers need and then give the truckers that instead of just handing them Bitcoin and being like, good luck. Yeah. The problem is it's fitting this use case. It's not just the self sovereign HODL thing. It's that we actually need to spend and use it, which is, I think, been less of a focus on Bitcoin   in the Bitcoin community, but I I think there is a good push right now. It feels like it for Circular Economy, for really kind of driving things. And   whatever you think about Lightning, I think that's been one of the good things with Lightning is it's kinda brought back a lot of circular economy topics and a lot of actually spending Bitcoin and   making it a useful tool, trying to drive merchant adoption, all of these things, which is really valuable, and I think a lot of the the crux of the issue. Because even if the UTXOs were known and blacklisted,   if they could actually spin them and then if the merchants knew how to properly handle them,   it could have been okay.  



[00:49:28] Unknown:

But, obviously, the way that things went down was Because the blacklists are enforced at the regulated on ramps and off ramps.   That's where they're enforced.   There's no  

[00:49:38] Unknown:

I mean, I guess some of the gift card providers are probably also enforcing them as well. Yeah. I'm sure pretty much anyone who could have received Bitcoin would have been liable for that, and they would have I mean, they the RCMP was actively monitoring   those UTXOs to see when they moved to track them down. So I mean, if you sent them The Royal Canadian Mounties  

[00:49:56] Unknown:

Which I think is hilarious. The Mounties were tracking Bitcoin, but They show up to your house with like ARs on horseback.   You know the red suit that they  

[00:50:05] Unknown:

We're here for your Bitcoin.  

[00:50:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Look. What I I I disagree with you a little bit, Seth. I would say that   if we look back in history sorry, Matt. I have to lean in. If we look back and It sees me, like, juicing this thought. I was like, okay. Absolutely. And then so I think if we look back in history,   I think,   you know, if we do the separation of money and save, we're right. Right?   I think that the Canada event and the China event banning   Bitcoin mining, the incentives come through, it's still there.   The Canada thing, that's the only thing that the government could just couldn't snap their finger.   And you could tell it put the fear of God in them. Russia to that Russia at a press conference, right, with the Russian sanctions. I mean, Russia got cans like, average Russians  

[00:50:57] Unknown:

like, you people can disagree on the whole political situation in terms of the Russian government, but, you know, just average Russians got completely canceled from the global financial system. Yep.  

[00:51:05] Unknown:

Of course. And is that and the thing is, like,   is that worth it? Because the US has done that to Cuba.   And the US did that in Afghanistan.   And it the the example that you brought up earlier with this guy was like, no, the Afghan system   is great.   And then he fully understand.   Bitcoin is the only thing I mean,   not Bitcoin. It's Bitcoin and the goddamn stable coins. Okay?   And,   those are the only things that still work. Everything else   doesn't work. So I think that it if you look at it from   a macro perspective, I think it was a very historical moment. I don't think Bitcoin failed.   I think people   using   they didn't   use Bitcoin's tools properly to fully exploit  

[00:51:52] Unknown:

this to fully go around the system, so to speak. But don't you think it's a failure, at least maybe not a failure on Bitcoin, but it's a failure on Bitcoin   promoters and educators   and builders   if if it requires   it shouldn't require so much education. Like, I have so if you go to dispatch 57   in your favorite podcast app, like, I did 2 hour episode following the freedom convoy because I was so   broken by it,   on how to raise Bitcoin crowdfunding   in an authoritarian   environment, an environment where you have an oppressive government that's actively trying to attack you and make your life miserable, close your bank accounts, put a gun to your head, seize your keys,   and go after your donors, like people who are donating.  

And I think it was a very comprehensive conversation. I think most people could   potentially   we tried to make it as accessible as possible, and I think most people could go and listen to that and definitely be in, you know,   a 100 x better situation than the Freedom Convoy where they reused addresses and   made a lot of rookie mistakes, filmed the people they were donating to.   But   and I know it's   I know it's still early.   So I I I wanna lower my time preference a little bit and not be,   you know, the angry impatient person in the room.   But I've been I've been publicly talking about Bitcoin for 3 years now, so I get more   grumpy old man as I go.  

But,   like, it shouldn't   the end case where we're going with Bitcoin,   the ultimate goal should not be that someone has to listen to a 2 hour podcast   before they raise Bitcoin donations in an authoritarian   environment.   Right? Like, that's a failure on   maybe not on Bitcoin, but it's a failure on the the people working on Bitcoin and working around Bitcoin.  

[00:53:45] Unknown:

I mean, as you said, Bitcoin's code. Like, Bitcoin is the people behind it. So if if Bitcoin failed, it's the people who have been   working on and building Bitcoin and educating all of those things, not maybe missing the point or missing the memo or not focusing on the right things.   It it's not that there's some, like,   sacrosanct thing that has failed, but,   I I think a lot of it comes down to, like,   are are we still early? Like, we're over a decade in this experiment. Yes. It's code, but we've known about the majority of these issues   for a long time.  

Chainalysis   has been around since 2014.   Like One of the most valuable companies in the space. Which is nuts and should tell you a lot about what you need to know about, some of the issues that face Bitcoin.   And I just I don't know. I I   the we're still early thing, I the the same thing hits me for lightning, that it just feels like it kinda feels   copy   because I don't think we're that early. I know. That's why I, like, smile when I say it a little bit. Yeah. I wish there was video so they could've seen that. But it   just   by projects that shall not be named.  



[00:54:57] Unknown:

But Lightning hasn't, like so   so one of my frustration I've   I've been very,   publicly frustrated about some of the priorities in lightning development Mhmm. Lightning businesses.   But these systems, you know, they exist, right, without centralized   authority. And, I mean, Lightning less or so. But with Bitcoin, like, one of the key value props is extremely hard to change.   So you need a lot of   and it's hard to measure what that threshold is. It's it's a rough kind of consensus type of situation, but you you need a lot of motivation and momentum among all stakeholders to get any kind of real changes going on.   Holders to get any kind of real changes going on.  

Lightning to a lesser extent. But with lightning specifically,   it just has not existed in an adversarial environment.   Like, I had,   I've had this public lightning node up since 2019.   This this is it's a node that's being used for CITIL Dispatch,   podcasting 2.0. So if you stream stats, it goes to that node.   0 on the node. It's called cildispatch.com,   you know, is the alias. Like, you know, it's it's   it's my note. Ironically,   when they were when the shit corners were saying, like, it's gonna be illegal to run a lightning note, I sent out a drunk tweet during, like, consensus 2020,   in New York, because I was, like, drinking with a bunch of big corners. I was like, ah, damn it. Someone stole my note and put it behind Tor, But they're not closing channels. And they're still keeping fees low. And like a bunch of shit corners were like, quote, tweeting me. They're like, see lightning is a failed experiment.  

I was like, okay, guys, but anyway,   I had a buddy. He texted me the other day, and he was like,   I'm doing some lightning privacy work, and I'm trying to, like, probe for private channels.   And he's like, can I probe your node? And I was like, dude, it's a public node. Like, anyone could probe my node. Like, you don't have to ask permission to do this.   And he was like, yeah. But can I? I was like, yeah. You can. And then he was like the next day, he was like, I hope you're fine with the 30 gigs of extra database entries that are in your note. And I was like, oh, that's why you're asking me. I didn't even realize that, like, any random person It's a lot of failed payments. Can just   fucking   completely fill up your database disk space. Yep.  

So, like, little so my my the point of the story is,   the point of the story is   is is lightning hasn't gone to that adversarial environment yet. Like, you you basically   to to expect lightning to be robust   without being attacked   is just was never gonna happen. What what needs to happen is and what will eventually happen with all of these systems is they're gonna get attacked like fucking crazy. And the crazy thing to me is that it hasn't really happened yet. Like, if you look at the broader crypto space   I mean, we're talking about chain surveillance. Like, the whole DeFi thing that's happening on ETH where everyone just reuses the same account number. It's all, like, publicly out in the open.  

Like, there and there are you hear about tax where, like, certain things are getting drained or certain but there there there hasn't really been, like, state level attacks, really comprehensive attacks.   And these things are just never gonna get robust until these attacks happen. Now the hope is   that the incentive structures   that that Nico was talking about really kick in   once these systems get attacked, and then the improvements are made. But until that happens, everyone's just, you know, on cloud 9 smelling the roses. Yeah. I mean, Lightning's a whole another ballpark because it's also immensely complex compared to  

[00:58:31] Unknown:

Bitcoin itself. So that like, that one itself that that will take probably longer than Bitcoin does. So   if we don't have great privacy on Bitcoin But it'd be a lot quicker if everyone's nodes start going down. Right? Yeah. No. For sure. And I think that's why I was hoping that the Freedom Convoy thing would be a little bit more of a wake up call to people for the Bitcoin privacy issues because that that was one of the first   clear, large scale Bitcoin sponsored attacks on Bitcoiners.   And it was a situation where people tried to use Bitcoin against the state.   So I think that was one of the first, like, really good adversarial tests outside of Silk Road and some D and M usage and darknet market usage over the years. But,   that was an interesting piece and kinda why I was watching it and screaming on Twitter about them videotaping all of the truckers. But But it wasn't even a sophisticated state too. It's fucking Canada.  



[00:59:18] Unknown:

But,   look, I'm I'm gonna keep pushing back on you guys. I think that was a massive win. And,   you know, I mentioned earlier that we are in this, like, new type of warfare. And, look, I'm literally, my mic is on a World War 2 book right now.   Kind of state of the studio. If you look at if look. I need a plug mic, I guess.   So if you look at, you know, war in general, right,   World War 2, they they sent Shermans   to the to the beaches of Normandy, but they sunk. Right?   Back in World War 1 with the advent of the machine gun, they would just send cavalry   into the machine guns, and they realize, okay,   perhaps machine gun and horses doesn't work out very well. Let's do trenches. Right? And then they're like, okay, you know what? We need moving metal boxes, also known as tanks. The point that I'm trying to make is that if you see it from, like, a war standpoint,   we won.  

Bitcoin itself   did not fail.   It worked.   What failed was,   okay, perhaps,   we shouldn't send the horses straight into machine gun fire.   Perhaps we should take a different approach. And what I mean by that   is I guarantee you next time,   it will be totally different.   But now we know   as the common, you know, the world knows that   you can raise funds,   circumvent the state   if you really want to,  

[01:00:50] Unknown:

and you better make sure you do it right. Because if you don't do it right,  

[01:00:55] Unknown:

the Canadian Mounted Police is gonna show up at your house on horses  

[01:00:59] Unknown:

in red suits. I mean, they were lucky they were Canadians. Right? Like, I was telling you this story about the Chinese activist who's, you know, her father just wanted   basic civil rights. And this is not even a Bitcoin story. She just wanted basic civil rights for the Uyghurs,   and he ended up in jail. They haven't been able to communicate with him. Right? And   and the the cousin get gets sent to jail because she has a photo of him on her phone, and they find it at a checkpoint. Right? So   I   the the the thing about the freedom convoy is   there was some pain, but there wasn't much,   which could be a very valuable learning   experience without   too much actual pain on people.  

But maybe it wasn't even   enough pain. So people just feel like, okay. It was fine because, you know, no one's in a gulag right now.  

[01:01:48] Unknown:

Yeah. That's what it feels like. Because I I don't know. I just I don't know how we can say that Bitcoin succeeded there. Like, yeah, it processed the transactions. It did better than GoFundMe. It it did better, but is that success? Well, I mean Like, better than GoFundMe in a state sponsored attack is a pretty low bar because GoFundMe is obviously gonna go with whatever the state tells them. So, like, yes, it was better in that they were able to collect funds in a censorship resistant way, which is that that was an immensely powerful use case. So that was a good showcase of what can be done.   Obviously, all the ways funds were handled, everything was poor, but   the as far as I know, none of the people who receive funds were able to actually use them to buy anything to fund what they were doing, anything like that, which I would consider as   failure. I mean, yes. It was better, and some funds got into people's hands. But they're a little bit hypocritical there because, like, if  

[01:02:39] Unknown:

if people did   successfully use those funds and we don't know about it, then that would be a success, and we wouldn't know about it. Right? It would, but we would know about it because you can see what's happening on chain.  

[01:02:50] Unknown:

The last   report that I've seen on it, nobody had moved. Either people had not moved funds or they had been confiscated. Or they had sent There was no in between. Basically. Yeah. So if it has happened where people have actually used those funds effectively, then, yeah, I would consider that a success. And that's really the bar I'd say is, like, was the purpose   of the fundraiser   met, which is to get them funds that they could use to fund their protest? Well,  

[01:03:12] Unknown:

again, like, I'm gonna use the war analogy. Right? What what did it prove? It proved that   you could use an alternative monetary network to   raise money. And it actually makes it very difficult   for the state   to see successfully,   especially if you do it right. And I guarantee you that now   that certain Canadians have burnt their fingers,   if that happens   somewhere around the world next time, I guarantee you Bitcoin Twitter will mobilize.   Matt O'Dell will make   will go live on Twitter and be like, guys,   this is exactly what you're gonna do.   Alright? This is Lucille dispatch 57. So we'll we'll, like, Twitter will mobilize   and, you know,  

[01:03:57] Unknown:

like, the dentists send No. But that's not the case. What happened was really what happened I mean so we've been talking about the actual people raising the money.   Mhmm. Bitcoin Twitter was really disappointing during it. Bitcoin   Twitter, as soon as the pressure turned up,   everyone fucking disappeared. Forces into machine guns. Like, Seth Seth is, I think, a valuable person in the Bitcoin community. I think he might   push back on that a little bit, but I think he's a very valuable person in the Bitcoin community. He was more outspoken than, like, prominent Bitcoin influencers. Right? They they just all were like, oh, shit. Like, this could be the moment we all get called terrorists.   That was And, like, they come for us. Right? Excited. And I mean, you were very vocal. I remember you being very vocal. I was very vocal. There were people that were vocal,   but   the overwhelming majority of people gave me the opinion   that if my back is against the wall, they're all just gonna let me go to the gulag. Because Like, that's what's gonna happen. They don't understand.  



[01:04:54] Unknown:

They don't get it that there is nowhere else to go. Like, there is nowhere else to go. Like, you there is nowhere to escape. There is no,   like, you stand your ground here,   or you lose it. And what a lot of people, they have this false illusion,   where it's like, you know what? I'm just gonna let this slide.   And,   you know, I'm just gonna I don't want my life to get complicated. I don't wanna get in trouble. Like, I don't wanna do this, whatever. But I think we're at a crossroads in history   where the fiat system in general has grown these bureaucracies   to such a size. I was actually reading Road to I wasn't reading. I was listening to it.  



[01:05:33] Unknown:

Road to Serfdom.   Are audiobooks of Shaquen?   I like it. I like it, Matt. Not everyone's as hardcore. Well, thank you for clarifying that you were listening. I hate when people say they were reading something and they're just listening. I I buy  

[01:05:45] Unknown:

I buy the physical books because I like to show them off on my shelf. Be like, I read that one.   I really listened to it. It's kinda the same, but I I I agree. Reading has has more of a Sorry for distracting you. No. It's all good. It's a good comment. It's a good criticism.   I just have too much ADHD, but look, I was reading Road to Serfdom and Listening.   Dude, these these bureaucracies and this collectivism has reached such a size that you could even in the US,   where the the founding fathers, man, the way they designed the country   was great, but you could tell the system is being pushed to   its limits.  

Right? And this is not only happening in the US, it's happening in Canada, it's happening in Europe, and you have these giant bureaucracies that are trying to control people, man. So I think it reaches a point where you have to say enough is enough. And I think that   in a way I'm privileged because I come from a country   that I saw   what happened.   What the what collectivism did to the society. Venezuela went from one of the wealthiest countries on in South America to literally a failed state in 20 years.   And these people have this false solution in the United States. It can't happen here. Oh, yes. It can happen here. And the way that it happens here   is if you just shut up and say nothing.  

So   that's why I was so vocal about it. And I think that if more people are vocal, and this doesn't mean   like breaking the law or anything like you have to color without inside the lines. But if all you have to do is stand up and say something.   In my opinion, that's enough because if enough people do that,   I think we win. That's my opinion.  

[01:07:34] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah.  

[01:07:36] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:07:38] Unknown:

So it was a little silence. I don't know if I said something wrong. No. I mean, it was powerful. I just didn't know how to respond. So I just said, fuck. Yeah. I   look. Once again, I just   you know, we have the meme. I'm in it for the tech.   For the revolution, baby. Yeah. I mean, I'm in it for the freedom. I would like to get wealthy in the process as well. Like, I'm not gonna pretend like But it's a secondary aspect, dude. Bitcoin is so awesome, man. Well, I mean, you can't ever You don't have to worry about it. You'll never be wealthy without freedom. So it's a prerequisite   for for wealth, because otherwise, it's it's not your wealth.  

The the issue is not   I I I pretty much have faith that we will get there eventually.   That, you know,   the concepts are there.   You know, the tech is possible. We're seeing it all unfold in front of our eyes. You know, the cat's out of the bag, the proverbial cat's out of the bag.   Governments can't help themselves, powerful people can't help themselves. They're gonna keep oppressing people, and people will just naturally push back when they find the need.   The fear to me, and the reason I'm so vocal about these topics   is the pain that happens in between.  

And I can see how palpable that pain can be and how brutal it   can be. And   there's an opportunity here to lessen that pain   during that transitionary period. So, like, a perfect example I just keep bringing up examples. A perfect example is I talked to Navalny's team,   opposition   main opposition to Putin,   last year at the HRF event, and they've been raising Bitcoin donations   for for a long time.   They use a static reused address. And I was like, I was like, you have me here with you. Like, can I please just walk you through,   like, just improving this? I'm not like, I don't want you you don't need to be full cypher punk. Like, can we just improve the situation a little bit? And she said to me, kind of echoing what you said about the Canadian Freedom Convoy is, they can stop us on GoFundMe. They can stop us on bank transfers.  

This Bitcoin keeps coming through. We don't care that Putin knows how much Bitcoin we have. He can't take it from us. We're outside of the country except for Navalny, who's in jail,   but his whole operation is outside the country now, and or at least the public's facing parts of the the operation.   And,   they can spend it at will. And they and and another aspect was they're like, we know Putin has the capabilities of spying on us from all these other things, which is something I talked about with Seth on on his pod, which is the meme the real meme that stops people from seeking out better privacy is not, oh, I have nothing to hide, so why should I care? It's really, I'm so fucked that there's no improvement that could be made. So they gave me that argument, basically. Right?   And that it worked anyway.  

About 4 months ago, 5 months ago, it came out that Binance handed over all the KYC information of all the donors   that donated to that reused address. Right?   That's a shit ton of pain that has gone to all anyone who contributed there from inside Russia who has family inside Russia is completely fucked right now.   And so, like, did Bitcoin succeed in that scenario? Like, Navalny has a Bitcoin. Navalny is able to spend the Bitcoin. He wasn't able to do that through any other financial means. But, like, if a bunch of his supporters and their families are all   being subjugated as a result of that usage of Bitcoin,  

[01:11:07] Unknown:

was that a success? Yes. Because this is war.  

[01:11:10] Unknown:

You have to take it. But you still won't go into war with no armor on. Right? You don't, like, go to like, you don't   you you should still not, like,  

[01:11:18] Unknown:

run your cavalry into a machine gun But for your metaphor. But but, Matt, like, we are, like, again, like, we're, like, in this weird place where I wouldn't say weird because it's not weird from our perspective. We we love Bitcoin. We're obsessed with it. We've based our careers around it. So, obviously, we're knowledgeable on how to fully   use the tools that Bitcoin gives us   in order to avoid those situations, but   the world still hasn't found that out yet. And that's what happened   with the Freedom Convoy. That's what happened with the example with Russia that you're giving me. And I'm gonna kind of circle back to what you said earlier on the show about burning your finger on the stove.   And that's why I use the analogy of the war. Sometimes   in war, unfortunately,   whole battalions get slaughtered. And then the next time the commander's like, okay. Maybe I shouldn't send the horses to the machine guns. Maybe we should build a trench instead. If we could reduce the slaughter Yeah. Wouldn't that be ideal?  

Yeah. Horses suck. Let's do tanks. You know, tanks are better. But not land them at d day and have them sink. Yeah. No. That would suck.   That that's a terrible idea. I don't know. I hope these analogies are useful. I like it now. I'll piggyback off that analogy. I mean, I think  

[01:12:30] Unknown:

I think we see a lot of the same problems that have been seen in Warren. I mean, reading through the books that your mic is sitting on, a lot of the problems are   the issues with approaches were known,   and then something bad happens. And the the ways to resolve that or ways to prevent that are forgotten, and it just keeps rehappening over and over again. This is true. And I I think that's a good way to look at what has happened in Bitcoin and that we have known about these problems, like the the Navalny thing. Everyone's known you're not supposed to reuse addresses. It's been, like, a decade that we've known that. The whole Ethereum ecosystem uses addresses.   Well, because they don't have addresses per se. They have an account based model rather than UTXO. So they they have more technical reason to reuse addresses because their system is built to reuse addresses. Horribly.  

The problem is, and this comes back to what you're saying earlier too, the incentives are not aligned   with privacy within Bitcoin.   The incentives, like, with the the Navalny thing, they can get the bare minimum. They can get donations that are not easily seized   with just posting a static Bitcoin address. It works. They get them. They don't care. But then you have all of the other problems that come with everyone knows how much Bitcoin you've received. Everyone knows how to easily watch what you do with that Bitcoin.   Dusting,   dusting attacks are very simple.  



[01:13:52] Unknown:

Binance turning over all the KYC users, because you know if someone sent money to that address, it was to Navalny and his people. It one of my favorite things about that story, by the way, is when I tell people that story, they get outraged, but they're, like, completely cool with Binance handing all that KYC information to the US government.  

[01:14:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, just like I think many people were totally fine with all the KYC exchanges.  

[01:14:13] Unknown:

You're you that that that doesn't it's what, sorry to cut you off. No. No. You're good.   Remember what the Kraken CEO   and Brian Brian Armstrong kinda dipped his toes a little bit, but Jesse Powell that's his name. Right? Mhmm. Jesse Powell. Yes.   I get confused because I'm like Jerome   Powell. Coincidence. Okay.  

[01:14:33] Unknown:

Powell. I know. Right. I'm like, is that the right last name?  

[01:14:37] Unknown:

So   he said it right. He said it. He's like, Listen, guys, I we can't help you. Because I don't use Kraken if you're doing it. It's like, take take self custody. And then you see the the reaction by the real I'm gonna keep saying it because it's funny. Real Canadian mounted police. Yeah. The mounties. Like, we disguise a problem. You know? And all he said, which is crazy to me, which is crazy. I mean, Brian Armstrong could go fuck himself, but Brian actually did as well to a degree.  

[01:15:03] Unknown:

He I mean, and they they also did Jesse was, like Yeah. He was probably selling surveillance software to the Mounties while he was saying that tweet. Right? I mean, they also did their own chain analysis to hand over even more names than they than anyone else had for, like, the Russians. The Russians. They went above and beyond, and we're happy to build special tools for that well, which no matter what you think of the political angle, that should show you the danger of k y z. That was an awesome post because  

[01:15:26] Unknown:

usually these regulated exchanges are their lawyers prevent them from saying things.   But with the Russian thing, they they were really scared that   that their business was gonna get taken down. So they gave,   like, the the Canadian the Coinbase post about the the Russian sanctions, they said, like, everything they do. They went down all the draconian paths of, like, how they control people and surveil people. That was a real I thought that was gonna be another big eye opener, but that's just  

[01:15:53] Unknown:

memory hold as well. Yeah. It's unfortunate. People forget pretty quickly. And if and I think that circles back to, like, what I've been on today and what I constantly harp on is, like, if things don't lead to changes in   the incentive structure for Bitcoin, and not obviously, like, mining that kind I'm not talking that type incentive structure. But with the use of Bitcoin privately generally being disincentivized,   it's gonna cost you time. It's gonna cost you fees.   It's difficult.   That's obviously not to say it's not worth it. It is necessary if you want to use Bitcoin and you want the most freedom you can gain from it. But the incentives are for the opposite. And if we don't use these examples to say,   look at the way   that Bitcoin as a tool was not as successful as it should have been. Maybe we don't say it failed. I don't know we can say it succeeded, but at least was not as successful as it could have or should have been.  

We need to figure out how do we leverage that before people forget   into doing the things that we need to do. And I I think, like, obviously, hard fork in Bitcoin, something like that, that's not gonna happen, to be completely honest. But Well, there has to be at least 1 hard fork. Well, yeah, eventually. Maybe we'll do all of the privacy changes in 21 40 or whenever that is.   But in the meantime, we can do things like incentivize   wallets to start in including paying in bit 47 support. We can start to incentivize more wallets to include things like Whirlpool, ways to easily mix funds. We can actually fund the people who are creating tools that are proven to work   for Bitcoin privacy.  

We can start to do the other optional things that least will improve the lives of those who wake up in some way. I was talking to the Bitrefill guys. What's the number one wallet that's used to spend Bitcoin at Bitrefill?  

[01:17:33] Unknown:

Legacy? What? Legacy?   Like, number 1 Bitcoin wallet that's used.   I have no idea. Maybe it's Trust Wallet by Binance. Are you serious?   Reused address. Address type. Complete reused address. They don't even do a new.   I think number 2 is blockchain.info.   By the way, freaks, no one uses these wallets that I'm listing.  

[01:17:55] Unknown:

So it's like the the shameless.  

[01:17:57] Unknown:

That's what I want. Oh, and then, oh, maybe I got the order wrong. Maybe it was maybe Exodus was number 1 closed source wallet. I'm sure Exodus is closed. And then   number 2 was trust. And number 3 was blockchain. Info. But anyway, those were the top 3. I'm positive of that. I think I mentioned But did you see the disconnect of Bitcoin Twitter? Like, Bitcoin Twitter would never recommend any of those wallets. Well, that's what I think I mentioned it earlier about the the this is the part that worried to me is that the custodial aspect of Bitcoin  

[01:18:25] Unknown:

is such a big leap for most people   that they just wanna use the easiest solution,   but they don't understand the trade offs. Like, they have no idea that if you pick   a good Bitcoin wallet, right,   the amount of sovereignty that that would give you versus   these wallets is day and night, and they don't understand that. Because to them, they're just looking at UI, and they're like, this UI   looks better than that one. So to kind of go back to your point, maybe it's a question of making   the more Bitcoin   privacy centric wallets, the UI is better, so that the normies   like that using Better.  



[01:19:05] Unknown:

Instead of using the horse wallets, they could use the tank wallets. Well, I think, like, look. Everything has trade offs. Right? Everything in life has trade offs. And when you when you wanna talk about someone   being ethical or unethical in the space, I think it's   a a good a good barometer of that is, do they disclose trade offs when Mhmm. They're aware of trade offs? It's one thing if you're ignorant.   That's probably not great if you're trying to educate people and you're ignorant about stuff, but at least,   disclose trade offs when you're aware of trade offs. And I think one of the disconnects in the Bitcoin space,   and it has gotten better, is that you have, like, hardcore wallets   that are very featureful that, you know, the enthusiast crowd use.  

And then you have, you know,   super mainstream wallets that are shield to kingdom come and have huge marketing budgets that are horrible wallets, and that's what the majority of people use. Mhmm. And, really,   the thing that would push the needle the most in terms of the most users having a more sovereign experience is a trade off balance in between   that are, you know, maybe not as convenient as the mainstream wallets   and, you know, not as   sovereignty focused as the the hardcore wallets, but a trade off balance in between where they have a decent UX.   They're accessible, but they're also taking the majority of privacy best practices into account by default.  

And I'm hoping like, I think we are seeing   more go that way. I mean, that is the samurai approach to a degree. It probably leans a little bit more to the hardcore side. Mhmm. But if you look at the shit that samurai gets, it's mostly based on the trade off they made to try and make it more accessible,   which is that you can use it without your own node on a mobile phone. Yeah.   So that was a that was   a noticeable decision that they made, though. Right? Which was, like, how many more people can actually use this tool if they can just boot it on their mobile phone and have no idea what a fucking note is?   They get skewered on Bitcoin Twitter for that. Right?  

And they also, you know, attack people all the time. Can get very aggressive.   But, they're mostly skewered for that technical choice that they made. Yep.  

[01:21:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I mean, I think a middle ground is   would be nice, but it's difficult because a lot of the things you need to do for privacy on Bitcoin are just not   they're not simple, and a lot of them need interaction.   So it's very difficult to find a middle ground that is privacy reserving beyond just the simple,   like, not reusing addresses,   making sure that your change outputs match the script type of the address you're sending to,   these simple things that can break some of the common heuristics.   Implementing those things is definitely a necessity, but it's hard to get a very simple UX that also preserves privacy on chain and Bitcoin.  

[01:21:58] Unknown:

Why does it have to be on chain?  

[01:22:01] Unknown:

Because Lightning's not really ready yet? I mean,   in theory, something off chain could be the solution. I mean, maybe you're trying to shield Fediment. I'm not sure. Oh, you read my mind, Seth. How did you know if Seth brought it up, not me?   Matt was just writing FEDIMENT and huge buttons behind him on the whiteboard. Got a whiteboard.   No. I I think Federman could be that trade off balance that I was base I I was setting up Federman. Yeah. The the hard part is you give up custody. So it's a very You don't give up it's not a single custodian. No. But you give up custody. You're just saying I wanna give up custody to a It's a multi party. It's like a multi party customer. Yeah. Right? So it's better than, like,  

[01:22:42] Unknown:

using Binance Wallet, and they can like, Wallet of Satoshi or something, which is a fully custodial Lightning Wallet. And I I  

[01:22:49] Unknown:

yeah. I don't know. It's it's hard for me to walk down that path because I feel like one of the things that is nonnegotiable for me is custody.   But   the   trade off that you would get in something like Fediment with Mini Mints is you could use people that you have some reason to trust, whether that's Bitcoin Twitter plebs or someone you know by name. Community members or something. A community member maybe in your local town. Maybe it's people in a meetup that you go to that you work together. Like, there are some interesting ways that you could have   yes. You give up custody. You no longer self custody, but the people who have custody are at least not a nameless corporation that's benefiting off of you.  



[01:23:26] Unknown:

So, I mean, like, Obi, who's one of the leads at Federman Mhmm. That's what he believes is gonna happen. He believes there's gonna be a bunch of   small community Fedimint wallets that are all interoperable with each other because they support lightning and on chain.   But within   but they all are providing privacy to each other, and they're all handling that. See, the thing is, so custody is a nonstarter for you. Right? But what Nico was saying earlier is, like, one of the main trade offs is people taking custody. So   to me, it's almost a feature, not a bug of that, like they like people could still use the hardcore wallet they wanted to, and they can go the full sovereign route. You know, they can learn how to use coin join, they can learn how to do collaborative   transactions, use lightning with a full node, and get rid of their lightning node after they use a little bit and refresh and go through all the fucking different trade offs. The cool part about Bitcoin is that it is this protocol and this open monetary network that people can choose how they wanna use it. Now   Fedimans   could kind of   be that nice stepping ground for people that are not comfortable with custody because   instead of trusting regulated exchange, you're trusting, you know,   15 community members and, like, a plurality of them need to steal your money or doss you. And, basically, you're you're relying on them for uptime as well,   not just stealing your money, like you need them to make sure the system is running.  

So your funds can basically be effectively frozen because you just can't spend them because they they're not online.   But and the result is you get very strong privacy guarantees.   And then you get lower fees,   and better user experience   and potentially easier onboarding than than definitely easier onboarding than self custody.   So it could be,   you know, it it it could be a massive improvement   for the average person using Bitcoin. And if you think about it from,   the Canadian trucker point of view,   Canadian truckers are using a Federman wallet.   And now here's the key.  

I think the biggest pain point of I mean, the privacy stuff really was very frustrating.   The biggest pain point of the Canadian truckers to me was that   Bitcoin enables us to be in a situation where you don't have to have a centralized fundraiser. Like, you like, GoFundMe relies on you to have your GoFundMe captain of a freedom convoy that raises all the money and then deploys it. Mhmm. But with Bitcoin, really, the ideal situation should have been that all those truckers were choosing because a lot of them were streaming anyway. They were on Instagram Live and Twitter Live, and they were streaming their faces. While they were doing that, they should have been able to say,   and you can send me money to my wallet here. Now, with a Fedimint that opens up that possibility.  

And the question is, okay,   is, you know, is that as state resistant as something like,   you know, Bitcoin as a protocol? No, of course not. But it might be state resistant enough if everyone if anyone anywhere in the world, including NIMs, can   launch these federated mints,   then maybe it's   decentralized enough. Maybe it's censorship resistant enough.   That's yet to be seen. There's no working product out yet. You know, I don't really like talking about things in theory, but it is they seem very close,   and they have a good team working on it. So I'm I'm pretty excited about it. But that's the kind of my point is that's the kind of project that I wanna see more of that kind of stuff where it's it's practical   benefits for average users   that aren't don't rely on any protocol changes or anything. It's like, okay, these are the tools we have available for us now. People are gonna use the worst tools if you don't provide better tools.  

And,   you know, it can improve things today.   Is it gonna be perfect? No. But it can improve things today. So I I personally think   I personally hope that a year from now, the conversation becomes very different,   just because  

[01:27:31] Unknown:

the Fedimin project exists, and the Fedimin wallets will be out in the wild. Yeah. My my, I think, optimistic view for that is that it turns into an onboarding tool,   a tool for spending. Even if you can self custody and you can do all these things, it it will probably be a lot easier to use something like pediment where you use it as, like, a checking account. Like, you don't put your life savings in there because you are giving up custody, and you should not do that lightly.   But   if, obviously, all these things come to fruition, you can use it as a checking account. You you peg in or whatever it would be called to to get in to Fedimint, and then you use those funds to spend, and you just top up when you need to. But, also, obviously, the onboarding tool where you bring people in, and then you teach them about self custody, and it can be a better on ramp   with people who you trust. And I think a lot of it may have a lot of similarities in kind of how the the privacy tool ecosystem works, where a lot of companies   bootstrap or exist in   good jurisdictions that are friendly towards privacy, that have good data laws, that won't be oppressive.  

And we may have to say something similar with something like Fedimint because, I mean, the a big concern for me is still   there are now less people in control of more funds, and so there's easier pressure points for governments.  

[01:28:38] Unknown:

The other thing, though,   I've just been obsessed with FedRAMP. And I've, like,   I mean, I had the fortune of of   I was in I was in,   rural Norway, like, all the way above, like, in the Arctic Circle with Obi for 3 days, and   I I just wouldn't let him not talk about it because that's all I could talk about. But one of the interesting trade offs that they chose to make is that the federation doesn't choose who the lightning providers are. So anyone it's actually   technically a permissionless   way of of being LSPs.   So, like, you could imagine, like, a Fedimint wallet where,   okay, you have 13 of 15 or 10 of 10 of 14 or something in the federation,   but then you have 4 different Lightning providers for that whole wallet.  

And, basically,   the Lightning provider, the person running that node and collecting the fees and running it as a Lightning service provider,   they're they're trusting the federation to a degree because they're choosing to accept the mint tokens. Mhmm. Right? They're accepting the IOU shit coin.   Yeah. That is running in there that is technically pegged to Bitcoin.   But the   the   participants   in the actual Fediment   aren't trusting the Lightning node.   And that was an active decision they made because that is a clear pressure point, right, which is you get all these funds in a Fediment wallet   who's running the Lightning node.  

So it doesn't have to be a federation member? No. You don't even they don't even necessarily have to know who's running the Lightning node. Interesting.   It just has to be someone who's willing to take  

[01:30:15] Unknown:

trust that they can take the tokens and convert them back to Bitcoin eventually. But then that Lightning service provider would have to have their own Bitcoin to match the liquidity Correct. That the Fed amount that Mini Mint, I guess, would actually need. Yep. So you'd need people with a lot of Bitcoin,   but that's very interesting. I I just assumed it would be the Bitcoin that was custody that would be used in the Lightning node, but I guess not if the Lightning service provider can be something The Lightning my understanding is the Lightning service provider can do redemption transactions on chain for the mint tokens to Bitcoin. Mhmm.  

[01:30:44] Unknown:

But, yes, they need they need original liquidity when they first come in and start providing.  

[01:30:49] Unknown:

Fascinating. Let let's talk a little bit about the unintended consequences   of this.   Wouldn't you say this would still be normalizing  

[01:30:58] Unknown:

something that isn't self custody? Yeah. But, I mean, also, like, hardcore Bitcoiners, like, go to El Salvador and pay with Walla de Satoshi, so I'm, like, kind of done with that conversation.   Like, you can let you can let the perfect be the enemy of good, at least for, like, short term stuff. Look. At the end of the day, the trade offs need to be made clear.   Right? Just like Seth said, like, you're giving up custody. You are there. This is a trust minimized system. It's not a trustless system. Right?   But it's very practical. It's it's it's a cool practical tool.  



[01:31:31] Unknown:

I like the practical shit that like you can use sooner rather than later that actually bring tangible benefits to people. How how could it fail? Like, how could you because I'm I'm really not I'll be honest. I'm really not familiar with this solution. How what I mean, no one really is. What are the downgrades? Like, I'm sorry. What are the what are the trade offs? Like,  

[01:31:50] Unknown:

what if those 15 people aren't available? Yeah. I mean, that's a major trade off. Then all this Just like if all of Satoshi back end go down goes down or Oh, yeah. Or like Well, at lnd hub I think, like, liquid is probably a good example there. Like, liquid's gone down in the past. How many of those 15 people do you need?   Well, so, like, it doesn't have I just keep using the term 15. Like, OB thinks, like, small communities will be, like, a 3 or 5   or something like that. Multi sig. It's essentially a multi sig. The way you can conceptualize it is that it's a multi sig custody.  

[01:32:19] Unknown:

Those 5 people   always online, always willing to sign.  

[01:32:23] Unknown:

Is that type of the model? The the threshold needs to be online or whatever. So the threshold that can steal is the same threshold that can Is there, like, a verification process? Like, is it That that's part of the beauty of it is anyone can start a mini mint. So it it What? Sorry. I think Mini Mint is, like, the concept of this the actual that's the software's name itself and what the idea of the   smaller federation is.   So, like, you and I and Matt could just start at 2 of 3. I don't know if you wanna do a 2 of 3, but we could start at 2 of 3 Minu Mint, and we could have our own. And no one needs to know that it's even us if we didn't want to, but we probably wanted to want people to know it's us so they trust us. I think you'll have, like, big public ones,  

[01:33:06] Unknown:

and then you'll have smaller ones that are run by NIMS or community members and stuff like that, and they're all interoperable with each other. But what what's the point of big public ones? Isn't that doesn't that   end you right where you started? It it's it's certainly No. Because you have privacy from the custodian. So so, I mean, a good example here, it just doesn't work that well as an example because of,   just most people aren't aware that how it even works. But, like, the Bitcoin Beach wallet, Galloy's wallet Mhmm.   Is   most funds are held on chain. That's a community multisig,   and then they have a lightning node that they run.  

And so the whole is a custodial wallet, but it's   trust minimized to a degree because   the majority of funds are held in a multisig, so not a single entity can go and take the funds.   Now   the result is a wallet that was extremely easy to use for, you know, tech illiterate Salvadorans.   And it's been very successful in least terms of adoption. No one's gotten rug pulled yet. Obviously, they could get rug pulled at any time. But the big thing missing there is privacy. Like, the those custodians see every transaction and every balance you make, every balance you have and every transaction you make. With this setup,   you have privacy from the custodians, and that's more important than just trusting the custodians. I mean, the custodians   are obviously an easy pain point that, you know, a government can come in and be like, okay. Give us the roles of everyone's transactions.  



[01:34:34] Unknown:

But they couldn't even one of the beautiful things about using Show Me and Ecash as, like, the core of the system is they couldn't turn over any transactional details about you. And they can't know even you make a Lightning transaction or receive, they can't know who, within the users of the Mini Mint, that's actually destined to or from. So that is one of the great things is, like, if the government's knocking, yes, the government could confiscate funds. So that is a problem, and that's what people should be aware of. But I can't give over   the information about what you've done, who's transaction with who, that kind of thing. So that is the part could be even more important sometimes than the funds, depending on people's start models. Yeah. Especially if you're using it as, like, a checking account where it's like, yeah. I lost $500,   but they'd know nothing about the transactions I made. They don't know that I donated to Navalny or whatever,   which is a very important   piece of   it.  



[01:35:25] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's  

[01:35:27] Unknown:

it's not a tank. It's not a horse. It's like an armored car. I love your analogies. It's an armored car, bro. Make sure you go listen to simply Bitcoin if you if you like if you love Niko's analogies.  

[01:35:39] Unknown:

What do you what do you think is an armored car? Why is it an armored car? Because it's, you know, like, look You trust driver? No. No. But, like, think about the machine gun thing. Right? The armored car could only take so many bullets. Right?   And, you know, the windows are gonna get, you know, kind of   messed up a little bit. The horse is gonna die, and the tank's not gonna care. So it's an in between. That's why I think it's an armored car. I would say maybe it's like  

[01:36:06] Unknown:

like a Toyota Camry with tinted windows.   Like so so   let me explain my analogy. Obviously, I'm not the analogy guy here.   We've talked about it a lot in Bitcoin for a long time,   which is that   we're never gonna really have accessible privacy if it costs more and is more difficult,   to use Bitcoin privately than not. Because it's just incentives. Yeah. Everything in this space is incentives, and it's   and if you look at most of the brokings in our current society, it's broken incentives.   So   with this, you know, if you were just a dumbass user and you were just sending,   you know, all your funds on chain,   in the cheapest consolidated   transaction possible, like this most compact on chain transaction that's horrible for your privacy. Like, every time fees go up on chain, you see, like, all influencer accounts are like, oh, combine all of your UTXOs because fuck privacy. You just wanna have, you know, you wanna have cheaper fees.  

You compare someone doing that, the most naive worst Bitcoin transaction from privacy point of view. You compare them doing it on Federman. They they have a cheaper transaction. They have a faster transaction. They have a more user friendly transaction with no confirmations or anything,   and they have more private transaction.   So it actually hits the incentives,   at least from the user point of view, extremely well.   And I'm you know, once again,   jury's out on on how effective   how, you know, how much these claims will be true and when this stuff   important enough project that I'm trying to get them out extra developer help. So I by talking about it, it gets them more support there. And I you know, that's why I'm talking about it. But I'm also talking about it because I think it's a good,   role model of a type of project where they're they're thinking out of the box, and they're using the tools we have today, and they're not expecting some kind of protocol change in Bitcoin that we're never gonna fucking have.  

I understand the the tinted window. Right? Toyota Camry with tinted windows. Accessible privacy.   Now Anyway, guys,   we're at the hour and 40 minute mark. Seth has another interview he's gotta do after this.   I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and we didn't really know where we're gonna go with it, but I think, Kinda like the no topic chat. Yeah. It was fun.   I appreciate you guys joining us. I,   there'll never be a 1st rep in this in this studio again, so you guys are officially the 1st rep in this studio.   The honor is mine. I'd like to wrap up the show with final thoughts.  

Seth, final thoughts.  

[01:39:01] Unknown:

Oh, hard to sum up all the different things we touched on today.   I think final thought would just be try to try to leverage these adversarial events that Bitcoin's gonna wade into   as   fire for you to to work on how you handle Bitcoin, how you approach privacy.   And then also try to use it to push your favorite wallet, your favorite tool within Bitcoin, your favorite merchant, whoever,   to think more deeply about   maximizing the freedom that Bitcoin can bring. And with the way Bitcoin is today, that means going through some hoops to use it properly.   But, hopefully, with things maybe like Fedimint or other tools, we'll be able to improve that over the long run and give people different sets of trade offs. Like I said, always gonna be trade offs, but different sets of trade offs. So, yeah, don't don't let these events become just kinda memory hold and loss, but use them as incentive for you and incentive for others to to improve and grow and and take on more responsibility.  



[01:39:53] Unknown:

Thanks, Seth. Nico, final thoughts?  

[01:39:56] Unknown:

Yeah. First of all, super honored to be here, man. Thanks for the invite.   It's been a long time coming.  

[01:40:02] Unknown:

Appreciate it, brother. Awesome studio. I I see the potential. I see it. We were supposed to record simply Bitcoin, what, yesterday? We were. So instead, we did dispatch in person. We'll do simply at the end of the month. That's a great surprise, man.  

[01:40:15] Unknown:

So here are my final thoughts. I'm I'm a little bit more militant and stuff.   That's highly militant. We we have a chance, for freedom.   Right? And   it's gonna be casualties. It's it's going to get a whole lot harder.   So you have to really ask yourself, what are you in this for? Are you in this for just the wealth?   Are you in this for freeing mankind? Do you want your children to be free? And these are all questions that you have to ask yourself.   What are you really in this for?   And I think that if enough people take self custody, if enough people are in this for the freedom, I think we have a really good shot at winning this.   Just gotta bunker down and, to steal your line.  

Stay humble, Stack Sats.  

[01:41:01] Unknown:

Let's fucking go.   I wanna thank our guests. I wanna thank all the freaks who tuned in and listened live.   Huge thanks to all the freaks who continue to support the show and keep it ad free.   Reminder, you can support at cildispatch.com   or in your favorite podcasting 2.0 app.   If you don't have stats to spare, consider telling your friends and family to type Zillow Dispatch in their favorite podcast app and press the subscribe button. It does help. I will see you freaks tomorrow   since   I left you hanging for 3 weeks. I'm gonna do a back to back dispatches. And tomorrow in the same studio, we're gonna be recording   with Texas Slim,   who I guess is Tennessee Slim this week,   and Carlino   from IBEX, and Michael Atwood from Oshi. It's gonna be a great conversation on bootstrapping a circular economy. I'm really excited for it. I hope you guys are excited for it. To quote Nico, stay humble, Stack Sats. Cheers.