Citadel Dispatch

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TOPICS: nostr, twitter, mastodon, bluesky, tradeoffs, pain points, spam, discovery, different use cases, more dev attention
 
@fiatjaf: https://twitter.com/fiatjaf
@jb55: https://twitter.com/jb55
@MrKukks: https://twitter.com/MrKukks

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(00:00:04) Intro Clip: Fidelity Investments allowing Bitcoin in retirement plans

(00:08:39) Building a censorship-resistant alternative to Twitter

(00:43:46) Using proof of work to prevent crypto spammers on threads

(00:44:18) Different approaches to filtering and preventing spam

(00:45:19) Implementing proof of work on the relay side

(00:46:35) Other approaches to prevent spam, like Google reCAPTCHA and invite-only relays

(00:50:14) Using SATs as a direct incentive for relay operators to prevent spam

(00:53:12) Selective filtering of posts based on tags or metadata

(00:56:01) Different use cases for Nostr, such as private Twitter, Slack-like organization communication, and decentralized marketplaces

(01:09:49) Potential use of Nostr for encrypted messaging and alternative to onion messages

(01:25:44) PGP sign message and character count

(01:26:10) Implementing likes, retweets, and lightning tips

(01:27:04) Reputation system and decentralized marketplaces

[00:00:03] Unknown:

Bitcoin bull. You might like this news. Fidelity Investments plan to allow investors to put a Bitcoin account in their 4 one k's, the first major retirement plan provider   to do so. It'll be up to employers that use Fidelity to decide whether   to put Bitcoin on the menu of options under the plan. Fidelity would allow savers to allocate as much as 20% of their retirement savings to Bitcoin.   Company expects to expand offerings to other digital assets in the future. The price of Bitcoin,   right now is $40,493.   It had been at 38,000 just yesterday. So,   maybe moving a little bit on that news.  

Pretty amazing. I don't know if I want up to 20%, but I imagine employers   might might control that. I mean, it's, a, whether it's on the menu onto itself, and then, b, how much you could put in. It's got a long way to go. It is pointed out in in some detail with with the labor department has issued guidelines  

[00:01:00] Unknown:

that make it very difficult for employers to CYA,   if they were to do this. It says extreme caution,   exercise extreme care before consider,   before they consider, adding a crypto option to 4 1 k plans.   If they do so, they're they could expect regulators to ask questions like,   how the hell do your duties of prudence and loyalty  

[00:01:25] Unknown:

with that guidance from the labor department, how do you square that? Well, if you have to be very, very difficult. Lose a lot of money in it, you might be on the hook. You would. Point for making them whole. And Bitcoin,   which has soared depending on when you got into it, is down what? 40% from its highs? Yeah. I mean, it's the You're talking about a pretty volatile move. However, the story in the Wall Street Journal does point out just how mainstream this has become. I think Fidelity estimates that there are 80,000,000   US individual   investors who at low own at least some form of of a digital currency and that's that's pretty significant. It it the Labor Department guidance is so  

[00:02:00] Unknown:

I don't know, prohibitive that Fidelity   along with other trade groups have asked   have written to the Labor Department asking to withdraw that that comment that guidance. So So I don't know how how widespread the adoption would be. Abigail Johnson, who runs Fidelity, has been one of the she was an early  

[00:02:18] Unknown:

crypto and Bitcoin bull. So she's she's I mean, she and she's been running Fidelity.   I think they've been wanting to do something like this for a long time. Also, curious  

[00:02:26] Unknown:

trading platform for this since 2018, so they did get into this pretty early. It it it's What the what the fee structure  

[00:02:32] Unknown:

would be, I imagine it might be a higher fee   on buying and selling Bitcoin. That's cynical. One of the fascinating things Yep. That actually Warren Buffett,   has mentioned over the years, I think, Becky, is some of the 401 k plans that that charge high fees, charge low fees to the company, meaning high fees onto you, the individual, low fees on the company. The ones with low fees for the individuals usually charge high fees to the company. So it'd be very interesting to see what companies are willing to pay for this option. In fact, that's how it's structured. Sidelity is a behemoth. And it just in 401 k assets, 2,700,000,000,000  

[00:03:06] Unknown:

Yeah. In assets under administration.   And they do have you know, they're they're kind of crypto friendly, but, they're they're kind of ahead of of regulate  

[00:03:15] Unknown:

later regulators where in the Labor Department. We'll see. And you make the fair point. This is gonna be up to employers as to whether or not they wanna Right. Go head to head with it.  

[00:03:58] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show about Bitcoin, freedom, privacy, and open source software.   As always,   dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors,   purely focused on actionable discussion.   Thank you all who continue to support the show   and make it possible for me to   run dispatch week over week   without any   corporate sponsors.   Easiest way for you to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.   My two favorites are Fountain Podcasts   and Breeze Wallet. You simply   download the app, load it up with sats,   subscribe to dispatch,   and then you choose how many sats per minute you think,   dispatch is worth it, and, they stream those sats directly to my note.  

If you prefer to use a different podcasting app, I really like antennapod,   which is fully open source,   just a really fantastic app, and you can still support the show using my BTC pay instance at sildispatch.com.   Lightning and on chain is supported. I also have a BIP 47 payment code there.   If you are using a BIP 47 supporting wallet, such as samurai or Sparrow, you can pay on chain via that.   If you don't wanna part with your stats,   I do understand.   You can still support the show by subscribing on your favorite podcasting app. It's literally on every podcast app. You just search Siddle Dispatch.   Dispatch is also broadcast via video live on Twitch and Bitcoin TV with all archives on bitcoin tv.com.  

Last but not least,   shout out to all the freaks,   who join us in the live chat during the show. Our live chat is self hosted on Matrix. The easiest way to get there is citadel dispatch.com   and clicking that citadel chat link.   We have over a 1000 ride or die Bitcoiners   in this chat.   It definitely pops when we are live.   We   love the participation that happens   during those during these live shows, but it's also constantly,   just having really great Bitcoin conversation   and associated topics,   during the week. So   consider joining us. It is it is a really great chat, and it's you know, I know I when I say the word matrix, a bunch of you freak the fuck out and   think, I'm overwhelmed. I can't handle it. Just follow the steps. It's easier it's easier than you think it is.  

Okay. Well, with all that said,   we have a very important topic today, a very,   timely topic,   and that is   building a censorship resistant alternative to Twitter.   The project in this case is called Noister,   or it's pronounced some way. No one really knows because it was born online in text.   We can debate how it's how it's supposed to be pronounced pretty soon.   But we have 3 guys, 3 great guys,   joining us who have dove deep into Nostra,   to join us for this conversation and go through the ins and outs   of of what trade offs lie with Nostra and what it attempts to solve.   So with all that said, I will introduce our first guest who's a return guest, Fiat Jeff. How's it going, Fiat Jeff?  



[00:07:31] Unknown:

Doing fine. Yes.  

[00:07:33] ODELL:

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for coming back on. I know you you were a little bit hesitant,  

[00:07:37] Unknown:

but it's great to have you back. Yeah.  

[00:07:41] ODELL:

And we got, JB 55. Will, how's it going?  

[00:07:46] Unknown:

It's going well. It's great to be here.  

[00:07:48] ODELL:

Thanks for coming on. And we have mister Kooks. Mister Kooks, how's it going?  

[00:07:53] Unknown:

Doing good. Thanks for having me. Awesome.  

[00:07:58] ODELL:

So, obviously,   Twitter has been in the news recently because Elon Musk decided to purchase it.   I guess before we go there, that intro conversation, that was CNBC.   I know it's completely unrelated to this, but I just feel like I should mention that it existed.   But if you if you were listening to that intro conversation, it was,   the Squawk Box hosts talking about,   Fidelity moving into the retirement account game in Bitcoin land   because, I guess, most people are gonna just hold Bitcoin with 3rd parties and have a bunch of labor regulations attached to them, but that's for a whole different discussion.   So, anyway, Twitter, was in the news today this week.  

It's being bought by Elon Musk.   All of a sudden, a bunch of people that disagree with the politics of Elon Musk,   realize that Twitter is a massive centralized third party,   and whoever controls it,   controls the narrative that goes on on on Twitter and can silence voices they disagree with.   Obviously, people who disagreed with the previous Twitter leadership have already dealt with that, and they're now happy that they have a a new leader,   at Twitter.   But you guys have all been quietly working on and building   Nostra,   which attempts to   solve that centralized third party issue to a degree.  

So now more than ever, I think, you know,   it is a very important topic for discussion, which is this idea of having   essentially a technical solution,   to broad censorship of speech on the Internet.   So where should we start? What is,   you wanna Fiat, Jeff, you wanna start with just a no stir show. Why should people care?  

[00:09:54] Unknown:

Well, I don't know if they should care now that, you know, must but we should just give up.  

[00:09:59] Unknown:

And just give up. And cancel.  

[00:10:03] Unknown:

But but no. Yeah. I think I think no, sir,   is conceived as an idea that could work, like, that could scale.   It's not like the future peer fantasy that's completely that has been tried many times and failed.   And because people don't wanna run demos on their computers that are online all the time, and   they don't wanna   yeah. Because these feature peer,   attempted that we're trying to pass, they all   more or less require   some involvement that most people would have. So   takes a different approach, and, also,   it's a different approach from stuff like methadone that   because Methodon   has a mistake has a problem is   the   the names the Macedon servers,   they own your identity, so you can't move very easily. You can't you can't be banned, and then you lose your audience, etcetera.  

And I think it combines   these these 2 things, like the,   public key cryptography,   with the the idea of   servers,   like, floating around the Internet   and people using these   rogue servers to connect to each other.   Yeah. That's not a very good explanation, but it's the   the idea.  

[00:11:22] ODELL:

So if I recall correctly,   if I recall correctly, I   mean, obviously, Bitcoin Twitter has had a bunch of issues with Twitter censorship.   I mean, I've been personally shadow banned for 4 months now.   And just Bitcoin ideology in general, it's a little bit ridiculous that we're all basically relying on this massive centralized third party.   So in the past,   I mean, I think there's been maybe, like, 5 or 6 large attempted exoduses   to Mastodon,   which is a Twitter alternative,   that have essentially failed. I mean, people have moved over there, used them for a little bit, but everyone just kinda comes back to Twitter.   And then Twitter itself announced their blue sky program   or their blue sky project, which is supposed to be separate of Twitter that's trying to attempt to kind of solve the same thing.  

And then after that announcement,   I feel like   you, Fiat, Jeff got a little bit,   disillusioned. You were like, everything has trade offs, and the trade off balance they're making is just does not make any sense. And then you launched Nostra. Right?  

[00:12:42] Unknown:

Yeah. The Blue Sky, I think it was launched so much so much time ago. I don't even remember what I thought, but   to this day, they they don't they   didn't publish what they're going to do. Like, they have no idea or maybe they have, but they   they're not telling us what's the idea. But from the from the things I've read and people they hired,   it's going to be something   IPFS based or   something very peer to peer.  

[00:13:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I joined their Discord, and it was just very, like, a lot of nonsense, a lot of shit. I'm sorry, like, blue sky people if you're, like, really sincere about it. But, like, last time I joined their Discord, I'm, like, are these guys serious? Like, I don't know. It was just disappointing. So,   luckily, we have Nostra as an alternative. Yeah. Like, 6 months  

[00:13:30] Unknown:

into after the blue sky thing was announced, I think I I came up with the roster, and I sent to a bunch of people to talk. And then I think,   someone   someone from Twitter,   a guy   contacted me and told me to join a private   Blue Sky Chat. Then I joined there, and all I saw was a bunch of like, there were, like, 20 people there.   And   each of these were creators of   peer to peer projects that were trying to do more or less the same thing.   And they were just talking about their their own projects. And I saw, like, how can a new protocol emerge from this?   These people, they all have they all have their own interest,   and there's nothing that's going to emerge from this.  



[00:14:22] Unknown:

Yeah. What I really liked about when I when I first jumped in and started reading the the Nostra, I really recommend people go to fiatjaf's,   GitHub repository and read, like, the motivation, which kinda spawned this idea. And it really just comes out of all the pain points, because we're all really just searching for this decentralized protocol that will be the Twitter replacement. And maybe Mastodon or Activity Pub was you know, it was a potential solution, but it has so many it has so many censorship problems, if not worse censorship problems than even Twitter. So,   I really like how, you know, his post on his GitHub repository really explains why, and I'm sure we'll get into that, but some of the motivations behind its creation. So  

[00:15:01] ODELL:

Well, I mean, let's unpack that a little bit. Right? So, I mean, I think everyone knows why Twitter has censorship issues,   because it's literally just run by a company   that can choose what what happens and what doesn't happen.   What are what are the issues present? So everything has trade offs. Right?   What are the trade offs? What are the issues,   with the Mastodon activity  

[00:15:26] Unknown:

sub approach? So maybe I could explain through my, lived experience of going through multiple Mastodon instances.   What you really   is these small communities, and this is fine. You have these small communities where people, they like they like to talk to be like to talk to each other. So one example is the Bitcoin hackers community, and you typically talk about Bitcoin, and that's   fine. But it's really hard to find   a not non politically charged community within Mastodon. So if you feel if if it feels like if you ever step out of line for, like, that of that particular,   political alignment of that instance, you're banned. And once you're banned, it's kinda hard to move your followers, move your list to a new instance. You can do it, but it's just a pain in the ass. So I I feel like I'm constantly have anxiety when I'm on acid on because I'm like, oh, I'm always trying to, like I'm thinking that I'm gonna I I'm forcing myself to censor myself more than I would even on Twitter, which is I don't I don't feel like that was a good headset,   like, place to be in, and I didn't really feel right if it's gonna be the successor to the censorship resistant successor to Twitter. So  

[00:16:26] Unknown:

Yeah. My my experience from Mastodon I joined,   Mastodon instance many years ago. It's called tooth.cafe.   I don't know how to pronounce this. Anyway, I just found this and and joined. The guy was saying, oh, I'm accepting people here, so I joined. And then I started using that to talk to the Bitcoin people more more recently.   The guy the the owner of the incident sent me sent me a message short saying that   some things I was saying were not allowed on the on his system his instance. So I just stopped it. I think he didn't ban me, but he threatened to ban me. So so it's very sad.   But one thing I, one problem with the with, like, if if they want to ban you, you you have no recourse and you can't move your followers. There's a thing to move followers, but   I don't know how how it works. It it only works if the the server cooperates with you. So,  

[00:17:20] Unknown:

you need to get permission from from the server admin to actually move your context to the other server, and you need to get permission from the other server as well to go to go through that whole migration process.  

[00:17:33] ODELL:

Right. I mean, that's gotta be that's gotta be the key failure of Mastodon. Right? That it's hard to move your own data.  

[00:17:41] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's another fail I see is, like, their model   of replicating content,   being servers. Because   if that if there's a bunch of servers, but people from each server are following people from other servers,   then it ends up, like, all servers having to archive and store all the content from all the other servers.   And   it it goes against the idea they had that   that are niche servers that niche how do I say this? Niche. Whatever.   Small servers with communities   that you talk inside, but you always want to talk to other communities too. You you don't always you you you can't choose a community   and be there forever. Like so you end   up spreading   content around multiple servers, and I think this is not good for scalability.  

And Nostra Nostra solves this in a nice way. Like, in my mind, you don't have this yet, but I imagine there will be Nostra relays   for small communities.   And the content will be there only. The the content doesn't have to propagate through all the other servers.  

[00:18:49] Unknown:

Yeah. And another big issue is that in federated instances would just ban, like, outright in like, whole instances. So, like, I felt like Bitcoin hackers was mostly isolated from the fediverse because most instances would just ban it for, like, right wing content or something even though it's pretty pretty, it's mostly about Bitcoin stuff. So I don't know. It's just so many a lot of issues. It's it's the probably the boiling ocean thing.  

[00:19:12] Unknown:

Maybe  

[00:19:14] ODELL:

yeah.   Yeah. I mean, we saw I mean, the biggest example of that was  

[00:19:21] Unknown:

Gab.  

[00:19:24] ODELL:

Gab uses,   Mastodon, and their instance is, like, completely blocked off from the rest of the network,   almost immediately,   by the other   by the by the other instances.   They just block they just block you off,   which is just it's kind of ironic just   that you you would think that, like, most Mastodon servers would be led by people who value free speech.   But for whatever reason, their community over there is just not,  

[00:19:58] Unknown:

very far left, I found, just politically, which I felt very, like, it felt very strange for me. Because it was, like, a lot of extremist, like, pro censorship people, which was, like, bizarre.   I don't know.  

[00:20:08] ODELL:

It's weird how that happened. Like, just that the culture developed in a different way. I mean, like, a lot of a lot of what we talk about   on dispatch is   open source code, but at the end of the day, you know, there's also a degree on on who is running the code and what their principles are.   But anyway, so Mastodon   has been around for a while.   It seems like it has a lot of technical debt. It's pretty bloated.   Their trade off decisions didn't really seem like they made the the   best trade off decisions.   And so   you decided to   start from scratch,   with different trade offs.  

So how does how does Noister work under the hood?  

[00:20:56] Unknown:

Well, the the basic idea is that you have a client, and the client talks to servers,   different servers or single server, multiple servers, and you fetch posts from these servers and you send posts as well. And everything is signed. We're sure everybody has a a public key, and you sign and you verify signatures.   And that's it. That's the basic the basic idea.  

[00:21:20] ODELL:

So how does that look in practice? Like, I   I went to,   so, I mean, I'm a noob.   I   kind of on principle the only social media I have left is Twitter.   And I kinda on principle was like, I don't want to do any other social media. I'm just gonna let Twitter die,   and then be done with social media and just have, like, group chats.   But then for this show, I obviously was like, well, I gotta   play around with it before we have no show. And all the all the freaks wanted to wanted to talk about no show. I think it's a really cool project. I have been, like, loosely following it,   but I haven't really played around with it at depth. So   I'm gonna be leaning on you guys, but, like, from a new perspective,   I went to   well, I went to, like, this website.  

Is it run by you, Theo, Jeff? It's, like, blinky or something?   You know what I'm talking about? Maybe.  

[00:22:24] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:22:25] ODELL:

Yeah. Bromley.netlify.app?  

[00:22:28] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That's the first client I did, like,   proof of concept thing. Actually, I had done all this before, but they were they were very bad, so this one works.  

[00:22:38] ODELL:

So you're running that server.  

[00:22:40] Unknown:

Right? No. It's it's a that's that's that's a client. Like, they that that's what was entirely on the code side.   Yeah. It's served by Netlify that is just Oh, but it's running in my browser? Yeah. It's running in your browser.  

[00:22:54] Unknown:

You can run that on your on your machine locally. Like, you don't need to trust the FITJEP server at all.  

[00:23:00] Unknown:

Gotcha.  

[00:23:02] Unknown:

Yeah. And I I don't even use, like, Burnlight. I just use, like, my command line to do posts,   and my iOS set that I'm working on. So it's, like, you have a lot of variety on types of clients you can choose.  

[00:23:13] ODELL:

So the the servers in question are the relay servers?   Yes. Yep. Yep. And that's, I guess, where I'm my client is broadcast  

[00:23:28] Unknown:

Yeah. Your your brand   comes by default   subscribed to, like, 5 different,   Relay servers.   And   when you and and you try to read like, when you post something, you send to all of them   whatever they have said except for not. They they for now, they all will take your post.   And   and you follow someone, you follow by PubKey, and then you send a message to all the servers you know. And say, do you have anything from this PubKey? And the servers will send you. Then you they try to show your   your home screen. Basically, that then you visit a profile of someone   to ask again to the server, like, what do you have from this specific guy? And then you they'll send it.  



[00:24:16] Unknown:

Yeah. So I think that someone distinction to point out in why this is really interesting compared to the other approaches   is that   you don't actually have to do a lot to get into the system. Right? So to create an account, you just generate a a private key,   so your public your public key becomes, like, your account ID, and then you can just send a message. Obviously, this is also could be a downside where you get bots, could be creating accounts and messages all the time,   but there are some ideas on how this is going to, not be an issue in the future with, like, proof of work and paid relays.   But the it's just a very, these relays are just very dumb. Right? They just take they take in events. You can subscribe to events,   so and based off of certain keys. So   if I wanted to follow all updates to people sending me, note sending me notes, then I can just subscribe to my pub key, and then I'll only get events from my pubkey. Or if I wanna,   filter it even further, I could say,   you know, I want to just listen for all encrypted DMs and maybe not   specifically, you know, random notes. So it's it's just a very flexible protocol for querying,   documents from a server and filtering it based off of things you're interested in.  

And, and it does it in real time. So it has this, real time aspect, this pub publish subscribe aspect where you can just receive them in real time, which is nice for chat rooms and things like that. So  

[00:25:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:25:45] Unknown:

So go No. Go ahead. Sorry. No. No. You you   Yeah. So so with with Nostar, I mean, it's very simple to just kind of   create any model you want. Like, if you wanna create the Twitter model where you just have an account, you create a which which is, which translates to just creating a private key, and then you have a public key, and that's your username,   and messages on Twitter. So if you wanna create the Twitter model, it's basically to create a tweet. It's just an you create one event, which is signed by your username.   You push it to a relay, and that would be basically like twitter.com.  

But you can actually create, like, a federated system as well. So it's like,   let's say you don't like Twitter. You wanna have your own world. You can do a Twitter   twitter2.com,   and that would be your another reading. Just post your messages there as well.   So it's kind of   it's very easy to model it after   after   basically any live   directory of messages.   Like, the way I was looking at at Nostra at first was more like   a like a marketplace   or or like a directory of sorts.   But,   some of the tests I was doing first, like, some prototypes for for clients for my own self was more like like just emulating Reddit just for the sake of having something a little bit different than a Twitter clone.   And everything is just really easy to translate between between things because Reddit is really kind of the same system as a Twitter post, and then you just have replies and   communities. So it's like traded replies in different areas.  



[00:27:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm ranting a bit. No. You know, but, like but that's what makes it somewhat interesting is that, these notes that you're posting   can be viewed and interpreted in different ways. So, you know, let's say I do a post and I you know,   one client might interpret it as a tweet.   And it has has some additional features on the note, which is you can reference other notes. So you instantly from that, you get replies. Right? So now you can reference a thread and and then you can reply to users within a thread.   So this is what Broadlight and Damas, my client, that's what it it kind of renders Twitter like threads. But you could also use it for other things. Like, you could have your server generating   events,   for your for your business. Right? And this is, one idea I had where, let's say, you run a private relay for your organization,   and there's different, you know, systems that are generating events within your organization, and you can maybe retweet that within your organization   or, like, reply to it and, like, cc people in your organization. But this could all be within your internal relay   that you could maybe even   if you want to, you can selectively publish it to the to the outside world. So there's all these in in some sense, it's just a a generic information relay system where you can reply,   where notes are linked and and notes can be interpreted in different ways depending on your client. So another example would be imagine you create another view for that thread. Instead of a tweet thread, it's now a document editor. So each post within that Twitter thread is now, like, a paragraph in a document, which is you are now collaborative collaboratively editing,   because there's no reason why you can't have edit events that unmodify other events.  

So I think the great thing about no not sure is that it doesn't spec any of this. It just it's, like, it just specs this really dumb,   relay protocol for for notes, but you can write a variety of clients,   that are all kind of interop with each other, which is really fascinating to think of what that could bring about.  

[00:29:15] ODELL:

I mean, at the at the base level, it's just cryptographically   signed messages being broadcast.   Right?  

[00:29:22] Unknown:

Yep.   Yeah. It's basically this, and then but then we have, like, as well as very small spec of   the basic format for these messages. And then we have, like, optional   optional specs   that they're they're just if someone wants to interrupt, you know, like, if they they want to 2 clients want to implement the same thing and be compatible with each other,   You could have, like, the the   direct messages thing or group messages   or   Twitter like stuff. But then you can render that as that as Reddit stuff, or you can have, like, messages that are meant to be rendered just only as   red threads, not as Twitter posts, for example. And then the client needs to support the Reddit thing to to render these. And I think,   multitude of clients when they're, like, having different interfaces   will rise, but they all will talk the same   the same interface with the relays. And I think the the this interoperability   automatic interoperability   will be will be very nice.  



[00:30:25] Unknown:

Yeah. And and one thing that and and since nothing is really spec'd, I've been actually working on a few, NIPS right now. So those are called those are what they're what we're calling, they're kinda, like, similar to DIPS, but they're Nostra improvement proposals.   So you get a little chuckle on that one. But,   but there's, you know, there's some things that are just not specs such as block list, so that would be an easy spec to add. Just being able to upload a a list of pub keys that you blocked on a particular on your user.   I'm working on, boost the boost specs to be able to, like, retweet,   also edit edit messages. I think there's a delete,   note. So, like, just you know, you could publish a a note that says delete this note, and then it just deletes a note or edit the note. Yeah. We can get editing. You know, we don't have to wait for someone to buy Twitter for $44,000,000,000   and to get editing. You know, we can just implement that. It's an open protocol. Anyone can propose stuff. So I think that's what I really like about Nostra is that you can it can be incrementally   improved upon. Or even just this morning, I had this idea where imagine if I wanted to show what you wanted to show, lightning tips on a note.  

Maybe you would just, give the note ID and your pub key and put that in a lightning invoice, and then that lightning node can send a nostra event saying that, hey, I was paid. And then you can and clients can then read that note and display the tips on an on a note. So there's, like,   so much, like, innovation that could happen on this protocol, which I'm I'm fascinated about. Yeah. It's kind of interesting because the most of the functionality  

[00:31:46] Unknown:

happens   on the client side. So   they really, really doesn't have to know about any new features you add. Like, as long as they really is just accepting messages that are signed properly by a by a private key. Like, it doesn't matter if you build, like, a whole, you know,   decentralized exchange on it or something. It it will just work, like,   as long as the clients obviously support it, but it will just work straight away. Like, you don't have to wait for a server to update at all.   And even going back   to, like, the if the basic construct of systems is the same,   you can easily have a cross compatible,   different view. So if you have Twitter, Reddit,   a message board, all using nostrils to protocol, they could easily just be cross compatible, which is very different views for the user.  



[00:32:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, one example would be imagine you could reboost,   a a Reddit comment and then, you know, I could see that in Twitter, and and people could be replying to it on Twitter, but it would also show up on the Reddit side. So, you know, the these are the things you could do on a open protocol.  

[00:32:48] Unknown:

Now one thing I did that no one used because it was very shitty is that extension you can comment on pages,   and then you can add a comment to any page.   And it shows on your brand, wherever   your client's   feed,   but it adds a tag with the website. And if the client knows,   it it should show that the website you're commenting on. And that could also   be the same the same format message format could be used for   for someone that just wants a a   comment section on their website. They just embed a widget that since comes through to Notar.   And this is all this way we would like. Show  

[00:33:28] Unknown:

on people's feed. I wouldn't say it's shitty. I think the issue right now is that literally no one is using Nostra. Like, I I subscribe to, like, the global feed on my app, and, like, no one's using it. So I think that's kind of the bigger issue right now. Not that it's a better issue. Regardless  

[00:33:41] Unknown:

of that. So  

[00:33:43] Unknown:

It depends as well on which relays you're listening to. Right? So, I mean Sure. Yeah. Somebody could be running a real like, Twitter could be running on a nostril relay, and you wouldn't know either.  

[00:33:52] Unknown:

Yeah. If Twitter wants to implement a nostril, like a read only nostril relay, that would be amazing. Because then I could just subscribe to everyone I'm subscribed to on Twitter, and then I could stop using the Twitter app. Well, I mean, supposedly, Elon listens to the show. So, hopefully, he implements that. Alright. Elon, get on this.  

[00:34:09] ODELL:

Wait. So so you mentioned something there. You subscribed to a global feed. So, like, my first two pain points that I noticed, one of them was was discovery. How do I subscribe to a global feed?  

[00:34:21] Unknown:

Yeah. So I was talking because Francis Francis mentioned this as well when he joined. He's like, how do I find people to follow?   So there's a bunch of different ways. So, you know, I I subscribe to the global feed. This is not gonna work once, you know, Nashra gets any amount of popular because it'll just be a fire hose of events. But for now, it's fine. Like, it's, like, the bootstrapping days. So all you do is create a you need a client that does this. The client that I'm working on does this one, which I'm hopefully gonna release soon.   But you just simply do a query that subscribes on everything.  



[00:34:50] ODELL:

Got it.  

[00:34:51] Unknown:

So the Brandy client doesn't support that right now. Right. For a good for probably good reason, you know, because it probably will break in the future. But for Discoverability, it's really nice because I always just say hi when people say hi. So it's good to have that at the start. But Yeah. It feels really lonely when you first launch it.  

[00:35:08] Unknown:

Yeah. It's really easy to Everybody It's really easy to do it. So, I mean,   Nostar has this thing called tags where, like,   if you just do a tag saying, I don't know, maybe   mentioning Bitcoin or something, you can easily do a filter that just finds everybody posting about Bitcoin in one go. Yep.  

[00:35:26] Unknown:

When you first join Twitter, what do you get?   Because everybody says it's it's lonely, but if you open a new Twitter account, it would be very lonely. No? That's why, you know, it's They put a bunch of, like, promoted shit in front of you. Like, the algorithm Yeah. But it's it's out of the thing. Worse than lonely.  

[00:35:42] Unknown:

So I recently did this. I created an account. I didn't follow anyone, and the thing and they would just put furry in my feed. I'm like, like, furry shit. I'm like, what is like, is this the like, what? Why is it the default thing you're putting in my feed? I I don't know if Surely you're not using a VPN and and you enjoy furries.   I guess so.   I don't know. It's very strange.  

[00:36:02] Unknown:

But the way you view that you the way you view that feed on Twitter should be done on Monster 3. It's like you find someone you you like and you add that manually, and then you watch as they interact with others. And you   pick people and start following other people.  

[00:36:18] Unknown:

But the the other the other thing is, like, how do you choose the delays you're going to subscribe to? And I think this is a bigger problem, but also a very fun problem to work out. Yeah. Fortunately, right now, most relays seem to be mirroring each other. I mean, someone's wrote So you can actually write a script that, like, does a query that pulls all the events from one relay and pushes it to another relay. So it seems like some people are running those right now. But that is a big issue that if it if someone is trying to send me a message and they don't know what relays I'm connected to, then I won't see their message. So   there is a way we   somewhat handle that in the contact list. We can you can put in, like, what relays I typically connect to so people know where to send,  

[00:36:58] Unknown:

the notes that'll get to me. But yeah. Even the domain, like, even in the messages, you've got that recommended relay thing. Right? So   it does help as well a bit. If you find someone   at some point like, if you find a message you actually are interested to interact with, you can easily find, like,   like, there there is some data involved there where it can tell you to just connect to a different relay to actually get the full list,   full list of related data to it. Right?   So that could work out.   I don't know if people actually use the recommended relay list, though.  

[00:37:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I I haven't implemented this in my client yet, but I do plan on, like, you know, add relays to the relay pool whenever I see them. It's just yeah. It's more work on the client side.  

[00:37:46] Unknown:

Yeah. But in practice  

[00:37:48] ODELL:

in practice, won't most people just use whatever relays are set as default to whatever client they're using?  

[00:37:54] Unknown:

I mean, it depends if you're trying to do something very specific. Because eventually,   like like, I I from from my perspective, Gnoster is   is a fun toy to play with if you're trying to build a Twitter or social media clone, but I think there's much better use cases as well long term. Like   so you might end up connecting to relays that do very specific use cases. Like,   so I work in BDC Pay. Right? Like, what what's one thing I wanna build at some point? Probably   probably having BDC pay server instances talk to each other to do some, I don't know,   coordination or some of some sort.  

Like, I intend to I would intend to use, like, Noster for that kind of stuff as well.   Yeah. Isn't there like a joint market? There's like a joint market formation, like, bounty out? You can do that stuff too. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Like, joint market would be an awesome candidate for using Nostar as well.   Instead of IRC, you could just switch over to using a Nostar really to broadcast your your bids and offers.  

[00:38:54] Unknown:

That's interesting. Yeah. And I so another thing I've set up is a private relay on my WireGuard VPN at home. And my Bitcoin node, whenever it gets a transaction, it'll create a nostril event. And whenever my c lightning node gets, like, paid, it'll send send out an nostra event. And only my client on my phone that's connected over VPN can see those events.   So they'll just show up, like, in my Twitter feed or whatever, my nostra feed.   But I can so I I sure only you can see those events? I thought I saw them when I was So here's so I've I've, I've implemented a feature in, in Domus, which allows you to rebroadcast private events to a public relays. So any anytime you see them, there's it's a very small subset. It's things I'm choosing to publish. But   yeah. So that's another kind of cool use case where it's like you can have a private,   Twitter feed for your events.  



[00:39:40] Unknown:

So just to answer   the the previous comment from from Matt, I   the the client, like, the client shouldn't have a hard coded list of relay. It should be it should have   an easy way for people to add relays or an automatic way, like, based   on based on some criteria to to add new relays to your pool and remove others. And I think stuff like   following a relay, but only for this specific person and the other relates for other people, this kind of thing could be done.   And for example, if you want if you just follow a set of people and you had know the relay they are in,   but you you also want rip to see replies to   to post from random people. But you don't want spam. So for the replies only,   you will follow only the relays that filter spam better, that they charge for posts or they charge they they ask for proof of work for posts. So the the replies won't have spam on  

[00:40:39] Unknown:

them. So stuff like that. You you implemented a relay with with the   with the cost concept. Right,  

[00:40:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I implemented a relay, and we have to pay,  

[00:40:51] Unknown:

500 sets to Is that per post or, like, does it whitelist your pub key? Because I'm pretty sure it's broken right  

[00:40:57] Unknown:

now. Yeah. It's a single single payment and you Okay.  

[00:41:01] Unknown:

Okay. That's broken in because I paid 3 times. It's not working. So you you owe me money.  

[00:41:05] Unknown:

It's not working.  

[00:41:06] ODELL:

It's a feature, not a bug.  

[00:41:08] Unknown:

I tried. It's not working.  

[00:41:11] Unknown:

Maybe it's offline.   I don't know.  

[00:41:14] Unknown:

Ragged folder.  

[00:41:16] ODELL:

I mean, so that was my next question.   So the 2 the 2 pain points that I immediately saw was discovery   and spam.   I mean, I didn't see any spam because there isn't really any right now.  

[00:41:31] Unknown:

No. I Spam   spam is definitely gonna be a big issue. If if it gets adopted by any by any, you know, notable user base, it's gonna be an issue for sure.   So   you can go for the for, like, some HashCash   kind of solution, but I don't think that would slow down bots in general, especially,   like, even if you look at Twitter, you only notice, like, maybe 20 comments on every post you do,   like, you know, trying to, like like like, even on the Citadel dispatch post, it was, like, some random bot just saying, look,   and some tiny URL link and trying to trying to rug pull the shit out of you, but it's, like, only 10 of them.  

HashCash   ish kind of situations   might not stop that because it's only 20 posts. They can probably do the proof of work easily enough. So here's why I completely disagree, and I've been thinking about this a lot. So,  

[00:42:23] Unknown:

I so you there's a really cool feature about so me so me and Kamri have been working on so Kamri, I think that's his name. He's another Nostra dev. We've been working on a proof of worse proof of work system for, Nostra events. So, basically, the way that it works is that we just, you add a nonce tag to the note, and you just keep increasing the nonce until you get a certain number of leading 0 bits on an of on the, the note ID.   So what's what's interesting about this is that,   you can you can do interesting things with this. So, for instance, if I created a thread and I said, I want a certain number of leading 0 bits   to only show up on the replies of this thread.  

And you can make this make it really high. Let's say, like, 50 bits, which is actually pretty hard. You could actually pay   a miner to to,   create this event for you because the signatures, they don't commit   or the ID doesn't commit to the signature. It's just the pub key and the and the data of the note. So you can actually export, proof of work to a to a service, and you could pay that service   to,   to do that work for you. And then so this might be another roundabout way to to, like, disentangle   the payment method from   paying for proof of work   for you know? So   the reason why this is interesting, because if I if I'm replying to a thread,   the biggest issue on Twitter right now, like, the most annoying thing even with your when you did this tweet, Adele, it's like, you just get a 1,000,000 spam messages. Right? There's, like, these crypto snippets   immediately. So they can't do that because in in Austria, if you did use this proof of work system, because they would have to start doing the work immediately based off the ID of your post.  

So if you said there's something like 50 bits, they would either have to pay for that or get a minor to to reply.   So, no, I was I was thinking maybe using proof of work for could prevent those types of crypto spammers on threads might be interesting, but I don't think there's any implementation that   does that yet, though.  

[00:44:15] Unknown:

I have So I think   Oh, go ahead.  

[00:44:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think the proof of work thing is interesting,   but I think other approaches can be used.   In my opinion, you you would do the filtering by relay, but you could also do that the client anyway, clients can can can implement different approaches here. There are many ways many ways, and they all   will deliver some some level   of success.  

[00:44:41] Unknown:

I'm scared that if you implement it on the client side,   the bandwidth might be a bit much on the on the end user as well. Like, I mean,   and also the relay as well because then you'll they'll just end up with, you know, a buttload of, spam messages just,   saved and persisted to the server. Right?  

[00:45:03] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like   because I was considering running a public relay. I'm, like, what are the things I have to think about it? You know, you could just create you know, botnets could just spam my relay, fill up my hard drive.   So at the very minimum, I would want proof of work requirements for every note coming into the system.   You mean on the relay side? Right? Yeah. On the relay side. Just just for that. Just to prevent, like, just people spamming my relay. Yeah. I I would do that as well as a base minimum as well. But also,  

[00:45:30] Unknown:

so I started   on my relay implementation, I started doing,   kind of like a a balanced concept for every pub key.   And then you can configure the the serve the relay so that   every pop key can have a cost associated to register it just like, Fiat Jeff system does, but also for every message and every message kind type   can have a different cost to it,   just to just to be able to control it a bit more. So, for example, if somebody is just   sending a message   to   a white listed amount of add of pub keys,   then it could be free or else it could be, like, it it could have a specific cost to it in SaaS,   at least in my in my relates   the the monetary basis SaaS.  

But,   yeah, I mean, I I think some money penalty could be quite important to actually make sure that your data   doesn't get overloaded, at least on the on your server because I I think spam bots will just try to wreck you.  

[00:46:35] Unknown:

Other approaches, I think, that could be fruitful   are,   Google recapture for stupid people that don't use Bitcoin   and, like, invite only relays for small communities with   human moderators.   Like,   this relay is only for   football content   and whatever we will ban. If you should talk about other things and   stuff like   maybe KYC, whatever.   Not not recommending that one. But   these  

[00:47:07] ODELL:

solve the no stir spam problem with KYC. That's the plan?  

[00:47:11] Unknown:

No. That's that's one possibility that we will allow people to do, We don't we won't recommend. And   and what what was the other one? Like, the algorithm.   Someone could make a relay that has an algorithm   to the spare,   like like, to the drive.  

[00:47:29] ODELL:

Well, so if   so the big difference here well, I mean, one of the big differences here with something like Mastodon is it's all client side. So if if I'm using, like, the private football relay   and I decide to talk about basketball and they banned me,   I have   I have my private public key pair,  

[00:47:50] Unknown:

and it's all client side. I can just switch relays, and that that's all I have to do. There's no So Yeah. And you would typically be connected you'd be connected to other relays, like so you would post it to that particular relay, but you'd also be posting it to other relays. So the other relays would all potentially be storing your messages as well. So if they banned you, you would still you could still pull all those messages from another relay. So and and even just move them to another relay. So it's the data is much more movable in this in this, architecture. But is my client not keeping a copy of all my messages that I've sent?  

[00:48:21] Unknown:

It it depends on your client. Right? So   we can always just copy all those events in one go. And just like, if the client is saving all the events, then you can actually just post them on a different relay, and you'd be back up to speed   with your conversations.  

[00:48:36] Unknown:

Yeah. And even just in my case where I run a private relay over v VPN, all my notes are backed up. I know that they're backed up on on my machine at home. So I can always pull those and push them to other Elays.   And that includes my contact list and block list and my metadata, my profile metadata, all that stuff. Oh, so if we go back to the spam conversation  

[00:48:58] ODELL:

so, I mean, I well, I think it's kinda interesting how you basically say, like,   using the proof of work method is you kinda, like, disintermediating   the payment method because people can go and pay   a proof of work provider in whatever payment method they want, and then that proof of work could be submitted.  

[00:49:17] Unknown:

Yeah. So the difficulty adjustment is the market. So I was thinking about this this morning in the sense that, let's say, spam gets even worse and even spammers are paying, you know I don't know. Like, maybe they probably wouldn't be paying money for proof of work, but, let's say, you know, they're running their own ASICs and they're able to spam. Like, maybe, you know, spam proof of work providers could, you know, build bigger ASIC farms, and you can pay more so that you make sure that but the the in some sense, the market should be difficulty adjusting the amount of,   yeah, bits you need in the proof of work. So I I just think that was an interesting idea. And another cool thing about the protocol is that it allows you to,   filter on prefixes of IDs, not just IDs themselves. So I can say I'm looking for 8 bleeding zeros   on this ID. So if I'm if I wanted if let's say I marked my thread as I I expect   8 zeros on the front of my ID, then I can easily filter all spam from my thread that way. So that's another benefit.  



[00:50:15] ODELL:

But so then my next question is,   why not just accept Sats directly?  

[00:50:21] Unknown:

Yeah. So I was   one issue with this is that,   so okay. Now you're saying to to post this particular   relay, I   I need to be able to I need to pay SATs   to, like, to get my message on that particular relay.   But if I don't have SATs,   then and I want and I wanted to get a message to that relay that so that other someone on that relay can read it. They might not be able to do that. Where I feel like proof of work kind of it doesn't really matter the way the way you pay.  

[00:50:49] ODELL:

It just really comes down to the market. So, I mean, that's more of like an adoption issue. Right? Like, in a post Bitcoin world, everyone should be able to pay stats?  

[00:50:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean and I think that's kind of the what we're trying to get across here is that, you know, Nostra isn't really like a Bitcoin project, but,   you know, Bitcoin is I I I think Bitcoin's gonna be a big part of it, lightning, lightning payments.  

[00:51:10] ODELL:

But it doesn't need to be. It's more of a more general, like, information relay system where there could be many different ways to do things. Well, I mean, I think it's cool that there's optionality and that the different relay operators can choose what they wanna do and that they're still interoperable.   But, I mean, there's got isn't there a strong argument there that   by doing it with SATS,   you're basically providing a direct incentive to the relay operators to basically run a reliable relay   that isn't inundated with  

[00:51:40] Unknown:

spam and garbage and stuff? Yeah. I mean, I personally would I would do it with Sats. I don't I can't imagine I mean, if I really wanted to make it easier for plebs, I can or the normies, then I can, you know, make a stripe integration or something. But, yeah, I mean, SaaS is the a way to go. Because I feel like one of the failure points of  

[00:51:57] ODELL:

Mastodon   is   there's only really two reasons I guess there's three reasons to run a Mastodon instance. One is that you're just using your own instance, so you don't have to   be subservient to anybody. So you're just basically running it for yourself and maybe a few friends.   And then the second reason is ideological.   And then the third reason   is the control play. Like, if NVK is evil and he runs the Bitcoin hackers instance, he can make sure that, like, foundation devices and all of his   all of his adversaries aren't allowed to have access to it. So, he gets some kind of indirect   benefit from having control. But there's no   there's there's no direct incentive for someone to run a Mastodon instance. But in this case,   there could be   for a Nostrilay.  



[00:52:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, authoritarians love, like, activity pub and Mastodon instances because they get to, like, have that power, like, banning people and controlling their only, like, feudal society.   But, you know, I feel like Nostra is definitely more of the free market. You know, you can charge   in different ways and, you know, I I know. I kinda like it for on on that aspect.  

[00:53:12] Unknown:

So another point I I had here is, like, a problem I have on Twitter   today is that sometimes I want to post something in Portuguese to   some some completely unrelated Bitcoin topic, but I I I got   a lot of people that   like my Bitcoin   related English posts.   So I I think that we would annoy them, so I don't do it.   And   and I I also see sometimes people I follow because their Twitter their their Bitcoin stuff, and they post stuff in Turkish or Russian or whatever.   And that's very annoying for me.   And I think if you had if you had different relays with different communities, like and you could, like, oh, my post is about this topic. We'll go on to this relay, and my post about the other topic will go to the other relay. That would solve   this problem.  



[00:54:04] ODELL:

I guess in my head, that kinda goes with Kook's, like, Reddit concept.   Right? Because Reddit is already separated into communities, but you use the same username.   But you can post in,   like, maps r/maps   or, like, r/bitcoin,   depending on what you wanna talk about.  

[00:54:21] Unknown:

And there's an there's another way to do it. Like, one issue I have on Twitter is that I like to tweet about a variety of, topics. And some people just follow me for, let's say, Bitcoin. Maybe not Nostra. And they're like, stop talking about Nostra. I'm like but I'm obsessed with Nostra in the past, like, months. So that's all I've been tweeting about.   So Nostra has a way to add tags,   like, metadata to a note.   So I was thinking maybe if you you could just say, hey. This this post is about Nostra. This post is about Bitcoin, and people can selectively filter that out. I think that'd be really cool.  

[00:54:51] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:54:53] ODELL:

But this is not this is not really possible today.  

[00:54:57] Unknown:

Or it'd be easy to implement, but it is not implemented. I mean, I definitely can implement in my client, but, yeah, other clients would have to implement it. We have to start spec in this stuff so people can start implementing. We need more developers.  

[00:55:08] Unknown:

The beauty of Nostra is that it's so easy to implement these kind of things. It's like once you agree on a specific,   you know, either a tag or a kind or something, it's like super simple to just say, okay, I'll implement it in a day or 2. Like, it's really not that much of a hassle. Like,   like, literally, Nastar, at the base of it is literally just a piece of JSON content that he just creates.   Like, there's really nothing not much to it. It's JSON and WebSockets. Like, there's not much to it. Like, any any website developer can build a Nostra client or Relay.  

[00:55:44] Unknown:

And this was my issue with Activity Pub and Mastodon is that their protocol is extremely complicated. I probably spent, like, a year trying to build an an Activity Pub node, and it just was so like, such a pain in the ass that I just eventually gave up.   But this one, it's, I don't even have to write a node. Just write a client, which is easier. Maybe not easier, but  

[00:56:01] Unknown:

I mean, the the relay code is almost just as simple. It's more about   like, the only complicated part is making sure that you like, the extra   the extra complication is that you have a database involved, and that's really all to it.   But, yeah, I mean, if you can write a a client, the relay part is just getting those messages and putting them into a database somewhere. Yeah, guys.  

[00:56:27] Unknown:

Without the databases.  

[00:56:29] Unknown:

Nostra is cutting edge tech. It's just databases   that you can, like, replicate to each other. It's, like, pretty mind blowing innovating tech.   Someone suggested to have a relay that doesn't have a database. It's just stateless, and it keeps stuff on memory for a while, then delete it. So I'm actually going to implement that. So it's funny you mentioned that. I'm gonna go implement that for my iOS notifications because I realized I don't need to store anything. I just need to look at a pub key and associate that with the device. And the minute I see that, I can just send an iOS notification. So that's gonna be one of those use cases.  

[00:57:00] Unknown:

I mean, you can also like, that could actually work as a use case for some specific   styles of how to use Nostar. Like, if you wanted to build,   let's say,   some kind of   coin joint coordinator for Bitcoin, which needs to live for only a short period of time,   that could actually work as well. Like, you don't need a database to persist the data to it. It just needs, you know, a memory   just a memory storage of who who is joining, the inputs, outputs, boom,   broadcast transaction. You're good to go. But we are eventually  

[00:57:36] Unknown:

server a game server, like, the people joining a game of   worms Armageddon or something, and   it it just need the state to be kept through for the duration of the game.  

[00:57:47] Unknown:

But but we are gonna switch to Solana. Right? Just for, like, maximum speed and scale?  

[00:57:54] Unknown:

Yes. Yes.   That's planned for the end of the year.  

[00:58:01] Unknown:

That was a joke.  

[00:58:03] ODELL:

I think I hope most people are aware it was a joke.   It hits a little close to home though.   So, I mean,   what are the, I mean, you guys seem pretty glowing about,   no strip, but what are the, what are the pain points have you guys seen? Have you seen any pain points yet? Like, what are your concerns as this thing gets built up?  

[00:58:28] Unknown:

Oh, one thing, I I wanted to mention is that   some people come to to the chat and ask, like,   oh, I want to experiment with NoStar,   what to install, and   and it's there's not that I think the mentality shouldn't be that for now at least because there's no you can install. That's just the idea, and sometimes they're implementing parts parts of the idea. So if people come thinking they get a full product, like, completely built and they can just judge   based on that, that won't happen. We need more developers  

[00:59:03] Unknown:

implementing more of the ideas and still making more of the stuff. Yeah. I think, yeah, Jeff said that, yeah, don't expect   don't expect, like, this rose rosy garden or anything. It's your if you're gonna get into it right now, you're you're gonna suffer.   But it's not really meant for it. It's not really meant for users at the moment. I think we need more developers, we need more people experimenting.   Our clients are crap. I'm trying to make a better client, but it's only for iOS. If we could get some an Android client, that'd be great. Android developers, we need those.  

[00:59:33] ODELL:

Some more web clients. Just yeah. No more developers to get people into get people into this. So, I mean, for the developers that are listening, like, what's the best way for them to  

[00:59:43] Unknown:

contribute? I mean, there there's probably a client in, like, 3 or 4 or 5 different languages at this point. So   there's there's multiple options for most devs to to be able to join in. I have a c sharp client. I have a c sharp library. I have a c sharp   relay as well. So, you know, I'm hitting every point from my end, but, I'm sure there's,   I think I think   has one in Go,   if I remember correctly.  

[01:00:09] Unknown:

I have a library in Go and a a command line client that is very incomplete   but could use some help. I have a Go   Relay library that you can just,   like, you can just reuse it and implement the parts of the Relay that you wanna customize, and it it does the basic stuff for you. There's the brand   web client. There's a guy working on a Haskell   desktop client. There's a guy working on a Android client, but we don't know exactly what he's doing.   Maybe he's just saying he's not working. And, actually,   there was there was a client enclosure that are, like, very much for desktop   that was made by a friend of that guy, uncle Bob Martin, that some people know.  

Uncle Bob Martin also was working on a client for for a project, I think.  

[01:00:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I love that uncle Bob's on this. Like, I see him posting on this client every now and then. I'm like, this is so   cool.  

[01:01:02] Unknown:

Yeah. I I didn't know this guy, but apparently, he's an idol for a bunch of people.  

[01:01:09] Unknown:

Yeah. And I'm working on a, an iOS client,   in Swift. So hopefully It's fine. Release soon.  

[01:01:15] Unknown:

I mean Can you run that on desktop or something?  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

You can run on macOS, but I can't do a desktop.  

[01:01:23] ODELL:

What,   so, I mean, I mentioned discovery earlier, and Fiat Jaf seems like he's pretty,   he's pretty content with the discovery model of just   following one person and then seeing who they talk to and then following those people and seeing who they talk to.  

[01:01:44] Unknown:

Yes. What about you yeah. Go on. So I yeah. I think I I brought this up before, but, Francis came on. He was talking about how do I discover people. So I actually created a cool Bitcoiners   account, and I started adding people to that contact list. So, like, kind of, like, kind of cool Bitcoiners. Right? And I gave the private key to that account to Francis.   So this is, like, an interesting idea where you kind of and maybe down the line, this will get into, like, multi shakes multisiction or something where you can share an account with other people. But I I gave him the private key, so he can add people to that list. So, you know, contact lists are a part of the protocol right now.   So you can actually   they're kinda like Twitter lists. So I thought that might be one interesting way to do discoverability, so to have these lists that are that are published. So my client says that you are currently following  

[01:02:31] ODELL:

maybe 25 people. Is that correct?  

[01:02:34] Unknown:

Sounds about right.  

[01:02:36] ODELL:

But most of them are just   bear pub keys.  

[01:02:41] Unknown:

Yeah. So this is, again, an issue, I guess, with the Braun Lake client.   With with my client, it actually syncs all contacts, so I you it'll render the the names. But, again, you can't really rely on the names because someone could be   faking that,   and it's trick you. So this is why there's  

[01:02:58] Unknown:

My my in in I'm very like,   I don't like JavaScript loading my browser, so I try to limit the the amount of data   and   connections,   but I think that's a a mistake for me. So the the client only loads stuff when you click. It loads a little bit of them, but if you click on the others, it will load the others.  

[01:03:19] ODELL:

Yeah. As I click, the names are coming up. Like, I just found Cool BitCointers.   Now I can't  

[01:03:26] Unknown:

I just found Keegan, but I can't see their follow list. I guess it's gonna take a little bit Yeah. I wouldn't use any shit on that. I wouldn't I wouldn't judge not sure based off Bronle. I mean, I I mean, I love Bronle. You don't get me wrong with the VHF, but it's got some optimization to do.  

[01:03:43] Unknown:

Well, the idea was I I had to master idea   for a long time, and a lot of people were liking it. And there was no client. No one was using it. No one so I but I said, oh, I must do something that's usable at least. So I did better.   And then more people became interested, so I think it it served his   his role, like, in the segment.  

[01:04:05] Unknown:

But I think the plan is that it's gonna it's gonna be killed after we get a good client.  

[01:04:10] ODELL:

So is there a better client that's usable right now that's got a GUI?  

[01:04:16] Unknown:

I'm not sure about that. My client is worse than Bronle for sure.  

[01:04:21] Unknown:

I I just use my command line. I just I don't know.  

[01:04:25] ODELL:

That's where I put the GUI,   clarifier in there.  

[01:04:28] Unknown:

See, that's why we need devs. We need devs. Help us out, please. So I'm just gonna start with  

[01:04:33] ODELL:

Mister Kooks, like, how do I find your account? Like, what's the easiest way for me to follow you on this shit? Man,  

[01:04:40] Unknown:

honestly, like,   I don't even use,   Nostril in a   persistent way. Like, my my client is, like, literally with no with no backing to it. So every time I load up my client, it just creates a new pub key for me. So   Fair enough.   Yeah. So I'm, like, in no persistent state whatsoever   in this world.   I think we will end up with better clients.   It's more about actually finding a proper, you know, market fit for it. Like, you know, it's very easy to build these very simplistic things where you can   browse events,   have a new private key generated,   follow a bunch of people,   message a bunch of people, but you actually want   some random guy to show up and like, hey. I'm building a start up on your Nostra idea. I'm I'm gonna make a bunch of money off you guys. I hope that's okay.  

And you want him to you want us to be like, oh, that's awesome. I hope you I hope you make a buttload of money and actually promote the idea a bit better. Because that's the guy that's gonna fund devs and UX guys to actually build a proper   client for for you.  

[01:05:45] Unknown:

Yeah. That is kinda my master plan right now. I I do wanna turn Domus into, like, a Slack, or even just like a Slack slash private Twitter for your organization.   That's kinda my master plan for my app. So hopefully, I get there, and Sonos charges this a bit. But   for now, we had yeah. We need more clients.  

[01:06:01] Unknown:

So since,   since William has told me has reviewed here that I'm terrible making clients   And demos demos or whatever is going to conquer the world. I think we should focus I I that's my plan, at least, to focus on some of the other use cases like   the during market stuff that Cook's mentioned.   And I think there are a bunch of other ideas that don't fit the Twitter model,   and they're, like,   a Wiki. Some guys suggested a Wiki that like, a global Wiki that you can find posts from any any anyone, and you can choose   the edits you want.  

And the post would have tags with the name of the article, and it would link to other articles. And when you click, like, if you're browsing football and you click the ball, you'll get an article for the ball, but you you get multiple options   from multiple people, and then you you can choose the anyone.   And other stuff like the DLC stuff, the DLC   guy, they're I think they are looking for a way to solve the DLC   liquidity thing because you can't really find other people to bet with unless you know the person and you talk to to the person, etcetera.   So I think it'd be nice to have that centralized   or the book of the OC bets bet offers and stuff like that, and also for the oracles to announce themselves.  

I think Monster will fit very nicely in that.   One idea that, like,   inspired,   Nostra was the Diagon Alley idea that, Ben Arck   created for when when he just invented the created the LMBits,   he wanted to make LMBits   on LMBits   app that would allow you to to register some products, and then it would create you for you a list of products   you would you will be selling.   And then people wouldn't have to connect directly to your LMBs instance to browse your your products because these products would be sent through an indexer,   and the indexer   is a server running somewhere   that would   render   both, like, the the   offerings from multiple   shops.  

And when someone wants to buy stuff, they would go to the indexer, not to the to the shop directly. And I think this matches perfectly   to Naso.  

[01:08:20] Unknown:

That would be awesome. Yeah. That that would also be awesome. It's because it's in B2C Pay as well, we have this concept of,   point of sale apps with items in them and crowdfunding apps with with perks inside them. And at one point, I was gonna do it so that you can connect,   you can connect them all together so that you can get the directory of items, but it would be so much better if you just had, like, a a relay where you can just post these products to it, then they would just show up for everyone in a unified way.   I guess you can kind of recreate the experience of, OpenBazaar,   but without the centralized sir well, I mean, there's still a centralized server, but it's still,  

[01:08:58] Unknown:

you know, more portable. Yeah. Yeah. More more more per servers and  

[01:09:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly.  

[01:09:04] Unknown:

That would be The is such a failure because no one would install that big bloated thing to be able to browse some some.  

[01:09:14] ODELL:

But Exactly. If you just visit the page and see the product, it's much easier. I totally forgot about that project. Yeah. But they added they legitimately added Solana, so they have that going for them. Oh, they did? Okay. I don't know. They rebranded.   Right. It's a different name now.  

[01:09:30] Unknown:

Closed bazaar.  

[01:09:32] ODELL:

They took a bunch of VC money too, which is always the poison pill.   So, I mean, so all of the a lot of the it seems like all these use cases, we're talking about sign messages.   But, presumably, because you have a public key, private key pair, you could do encrypted messages too. Right? Yeah. There is.  

[01:09:51] Unknown:

Yeah. There is there is direct messages between between users, which is, you know, like, encrypted end to end. So you don't have you can post   you can put them post a message specifically between 2 persons, and only those 2 people can actually look at the message and decrypt it.   So you can actually recreate,   like, a, like, a signal experience,  

[01:10:12] Unknown:

except Yeah. Group messages because that's still not possible. But you can recreate these kind of things to do. Yeah. And you could definitely do group messages. It's just a and we were talking about that in the This is an implementation thing. Right? Yeah. It it's all about how, like, how do you, you know, generate that shared secret. In the case of a DM, it's you take the pub Yeah. Pub key in your secret key. But in a group, setting, it could just be a different way to generate that shared secret. So you could definitely do it. But so then,  

[01:10:37] ODELL:

presumably,   like, every   every,   project that hates on lightning that uses the wants to use onion messages could use no instead.  

[01:10:53] Unknown:

Yes. I would really recommend that instead.  

[01:10:57] ODELL:

What projects are using Onion messages? I don't know. I just feel like you're always complaining on Twitter when someone once sees onion messages.  

[01:11:03] Unknown:

Are you just not a big fan of onions? Like, do you have something against onions?  

[01:11:07] Unknown:

I want to leave the onions for me to eat.  

[01:11:10] ODELL:

No. Stop using the onion. So, I mean, there could even be, like,   I mean, like, a a big thing is, like, this idea of, like, reusable   invoices   on Lightning,   you could just serve you could just serve invoices through Nostra. Right? Like, it could just hit a Nostra Relay and ask  

[01:11:33] Unknown:

for you to give a new invoice and you hit them. Right? Yep. For sure. You you can do I you can kind of do the DNS resolution stuff   through   through a through a really instead of, like, a domain name if you wanted to.   Like, I was actually thinking about that the other day as well. Like, you can even like, you know, how bit 47 requires that transaction   to do the handshake?   Maybe you can you can bypass that and just do it over   Nostra. Over and over Nostra events. You know? I mean, you can do so many things over Nostra, and it won't cost you and blow the the blockchain just to do it.   So so bit 47   notifications,   lnurl,   that kind of stuff can happen over in Austria instead of DNS or or blockchain,   you know,   operators.  



[01:12:22] Unknown:

One thing I wanted to mention   was, you know, we could actually create a signal   alternative if we if we have some smart crypto people to come in and put together a double ratchet spec on Nostra. So, yeah, we have encrypted DMs, but if your key was ever leaked,   then all your DMs are leaked, which is not ideal. But there's no reason why you couldn't implement something like signal on top of Nostra. So that is something I would I would be really interested in. I'm not a crypto person. So if anyone is, like, would like to think about that on Nostra, I would love to hear them. And I can implement that in my app.  

[01:12:52] Unknown:

The the big problem with that is,   the metadata that leaks. Like, if you're using public relays, could be solved if you use, like,   a private relay that promises to not give you metadata.  

[01:13:05] ODELL:

I don't know if there's a better way. And then you're still trusting them in that situation that they're actually not keeping logs. Right?  

[01:13:12] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   I think   for for now, I think you should maybe focus more on the   public   public stuff, like public group public chat groups and public hosting and Yeah. These other protocols   that are interesting that, we didn't make a made a notable thing that I I wanted to use, but I don't have a an iPhone.   Anyway   Yeah. It could be a a separate app instead of being stuck inside   the the apps that do social thing.   Most of you guys  

[01:13:48] Unknown:

Yeah. So what Fia Jaf's referring to is I created a, a Nostra account that's called my [email protected],   and I've been using it as a notepad as, like, Twitter threads.   So and I'm like, oh, just as an experiment. Because in in the future, I could potentially create a view or someone could create an app as a view that renders that thread as a notepad, like a thread in notepad, which might be interesting.  

[01:14:11] ODELL:

And what is this?   A little bit unrelated, but in my settings, I have, like, this NIPO 5   identifier.  

[01:14:20] Unknown:

I don't know if yeah. I I can explain that, but if you unless you want to.  

[01:14:24] Unknown:

I think it's better if you   explain.  

[01:14:27] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's it's really simple. It's very much like that whole if you're if you're familiar with lNurals or,   basically, there's a well known path on your web server. So it does require you to run some infrastructure, some web servers. But, you know, it's like dot well known dash. I think it's, it's like It's the lightning address resolution thing. Yeah. So it's / nostra.json. Inside that JSON file, you have a mapping from,   pub keys to a   username. And and so, basically, clients can use that to confirm that a pub key,   maps to your domain. So that's just a way to   And this is why you and Fiat Jaffe are blue checks because you own the website that is your username. Yeah. So you can imagine one day, there's, like, a domus. Io. And people it's like a Twitter where people can sign up and they would get like a their username at damas dot I o. And then,   yeah. And they would have like an official username.  



[01:15:21] Unknown:

Yeah. And just to clarify, like, this this gives you a human real goal username that's pretty much like the Mastodon stuff.   But you're not you're not   that username is not your identity. Like, once the the person finds you, they will follow your puppy It's a puppy. Your name. Yeah.   But what about  

[01:15:43] ODELL:

I'm sorry if any of these I'm just brainstorming live on air.   Is there something there about using, you know, your lightning pub key, signing a message with your lightning node   instead of running a web server to prove your  

[01:15:59] Unknown:

who who you are? You could totally create lightning or, Nostra messages from your lightning nodes private key, where it might be interesting. And then   I don't know if it would map directly to,   Nostra pubkey, but  

[01:16:13] ODELL:

I was just thinking, like, if the client just allows you to   oh, I guess the relay would have to do the challenge response. Right? Not the client.  

[01:16:24] Unknown:

So that would work. Could be any of those.   Yeah.   You mean, like, the the the lightning node could could use it its own port key, and then   the relay or the client could check if that lightning node exists and has channels?   Like, this is this is one way to prevent spam, I think.   But,   I don't think it's very easy to do it now to reduce your lightning or top key, right, like that.  

[01:16:52] ODELL:

I mean, I was thinking, like, the way,   like, you can sign a message with your   key your lightning keys to, like, access a website to sign in.   But this is on the client that's on the client side, so it can't it wouldn't really work in this situation. Right?  

[01:17:10] Unknown:

It would. It would. Definitely. You could sign an event and use it to log in with your nother identity   regardless of where that what he came from.   But I I was thinking, like, the idea you you reminded me of, another way to prevent pain is that you could   take a a a key pair and make   a Bitcoin address from that. And then   some relay or some client would require you to have some money on that address,   some some out there to allow you message from you. So   you that's an anti spam way too.   Anyway  

[01:17:51] ODELL:

I just stumbled on,   not jb 55, and it has all capped flocks key compromise. This is not my account. What's the story of that? Oh my god. I was test I saw I was working on a command line app called nostril. I know I'm really good at naming things.  

[01:18:08] Unknown:

But it's, basically, just a c application that can generate nostril events. And I, like, fudged the environment variable so that I'd made a post that just broadcasted my secret key.   So I'm like, oh, shit. But luckily, it was actually pretty easy to migrate just to a new key. I just, like, copied my old contact list to a new key, and then just, like, move my net zero five   to to the new account, and it was done. And I and I migrated easily. So that was an that was a pretty it was a nice learning experience, but,   since then, I've actually I'm working on a spec that,   where so, like, private key material,   is actually encoded differently so that,   if you actually try to accidentally tweak your private key, maybe clients can detect that and stop you from doing something stupid. But yeah.  



[01:18:50] Unknown:

Yeah. That's very much needed. I'm I'm very confused about the the key formats as they are.   Yeah.  

[01:18:57] Unknown:

Yeah. So we're thinking about just using, batch 32,   and then and then having a specific prefix for private keys and public keys kinda   might be ideal.  

[01:19:13] ODELL:

Sorry. I'm just clicking around No Str right now. I keep getting distracted.   So you guys have anything else you wanna talk about? I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.   I don't really know enough about Nostra to know what my next question is.  

[01:19:31] Unknown:

I mean,   from from my end, most of my use cases around Allstar are gonna be around not building the alternative to Twitter.  

[01:19:41] ODELL:

So I fucked up the title of the the podcast.  

[01:19:46] Unknown:

No. No. We don't need to do that. Those use cases. I love Twitter. I love using Twitter. I actually don't mind that Elon took over Twitter. I think it's fine. I think it's the better situation than we were before, but we're always going to run-in that situation where,   you know, you know, maybe Elon won't be there all the time. And we're still we're still gonna need a decentralized solution of, like, a decentralized information relaying protocol that doesn't currently exist.   So regardless, I think it's interesting to be working on this and to,   I still like the I really like the private Twitter use cases to have that within your own organization,   and then having events being generated from your from your business, and you can and you can respond to it, and then jump into a Slack room,   based off those events and things like that. I don't know. There's a lot of interesting use cases, which I think are, have yet to been kind of discovered. So  

[01:20:32] Unknown:

If you want, I can cite more use cases I've been noting.   Like, one is that remember that,   these websites are very popular in Brazil called forms Palm Spring.   When you like the social network of people asking questions through others, it's a very fun thing. And you you just ask questions, then the person will respond. With something that's that has died. Those networks where you post   where you are, like, you oh, I'm in this   shop, whatever. These things, they could be done on master too. Yeah.   You could have git over master.   I'm not sure exactly how, but  

[01:21:08] Unknown:

it's possible for for sure. Yeah. And just give replace radical. Right? You don't need to Yeah. Radical is very, very cool, but it's They're still in the shit quite now. Yeah. Too much. It's going there. You you have 4chan on Nostra? You wanna do a 4chan thing? Wait. Like, it it gets rid of messages after a couple days or something?  

[01:21:25] Unknown:

You could have you could have to, like,   a central   closed website,   like like many websites exist, they're closed. And they if they use Nostr as their back end, they become, like, an easy export   exportable thing.   And   I think that could be a marketing marketing thing for them and also for you. This is true. Blog comments.   Yeah. Blog comments.   Decentralized Uber,   Uber,   Coworking, Airbnb,   Whatsapp coordinator   announcements. If there are multiple Whatsapp coordinators   that want to announce themselves, we could have  

[01:22:04] Unknown:

a marketplace. Can't Nasr do, fiat, Jeff? What can it do?  

[01:22:08] Unknown:

Well, it can't do stock rep networking.  

[01:22:12] Unknown:

Oh. That's that's the thing, Cooks. If you give me that challenge, I'm gonna try to do it.  

[01:22:19] Unknown:

Mister Cook said we were going to do that, but I don't know if it's a better a good idea.   You you remember that sneaker proposal   for Yeah.   Sneaker, I think it would be nice to do it on Oster instead of using the blockchain, the Bitcoin blockchain for it. Yeah. It's the same with all these off return  

[01:22:37] Unknown:

either off return or   analyzing the entire UTXO set to find something compatible with with your with what you want to do. You can replace all that blockchain bloat or   or scanning with just posting a message to an Oster instead.   I think that will be a lot more useful.  

[01:22:55] ODELL:

Seems like a great complement to Bitcoin tools just across the board.  

[01:23:00] Unknown:

I'm already seeing that with my just my my 2 my my Bitcoin core node and my c lightning node and just getting events from them. It's just been because I you know, I think Bitcoin has created this new situation where I I actually really care about the privacy of my UTX UTXOs, and I run these nodes at home. And I wanna make sure that, yeah, I have private info that I can still access on my phone. So   I don't know. I I think it really complements, a lot of the Bitcoin tools.  

[01:23:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. You you see that Agora, that that thing that you sell files? I think selling files is nice, but the way it's being done, like, you have to   you don't have a central place to go browse files to buy. So, like, you know, there's so much that you open an issue in the repo to take the but, of course, they they   I'm just   off offshooting the work to them.  

[01:23:46] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. So one huge issue on Nostra right now is, image sharing. We have there's no really way I mean, it's not really it doesn't make sense to spec it into Nostra because Nostra is not meant for, like, sharing large media. But it's actually pretty important. Most people like to share a picture, like, on the   Twitter feed or something. So, yeah, that's something I'm thinking about right now in my client. Like, how do I do image posts? Because it's, like, it's not a part of the protocol. So  

[01:24:09] ODELL:

How are you gonna do it?  

[01:24:12] Unknown:

I don't know. Paid service. I I don't wanna   charge people for, like, to do file uploads just for file uploads, but and maybe I'll make make it more of an experience. It'll just include file uploads.  

[01:24:24] ODELL:

Like, you pay some sats to host a host a file? Some people suggested, like, be able to configure. This is  

[01:24:32] Unknown:

these are pretty advanced, but, like, configuring SFTP or s their your personal s 3 or maybe s s 3 bucket, a d AWS credentials or like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're, like, technical, but for nontechnical people, they I don't know if there's a good solution other than  

[01:24:45] Unknown:

Oh, AWS is not a good solution for technical people either.   Like, how many API keys or whatever you have   to create an IRM account or I don't know.   Yeah. I think paying is good if you could pay to host host files.  

[01:25:02] Unknown:

If anyone has ideas, someone suggested, like, a imageral image Imager API or something. Like, oh, I don't know if that'll work. But  

[01:25:08] ODELL:

I mean, then you're just holding all the photos on Imager's servers.  

[01:25:13] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's open question. Anyone have any ideas,   to hear them?  

[01:25:21] ODELL:

So I noticed there's a character count.   Is that on the client side or the relay side?  

[01:25:27] Unknown:

Either.   Could be either, though. Yeah. On Bradley on client side, it's very bad. I should I should have removed that. Yeah. And, I've actually I'm actually using it as a pastebin. My client doesn't have a limit, so I just been, like, posting code snippets that are referred to,   which is I don't know if that's  

[01:25:43] ODELL:

kinda frowned upon, but I know it's kinda cool. I mean, because I wanted to when I posted the first time, I wanted to post a PGP sign message,   and I couldn't fit it.   So it'd be nice if Could I use a different app? If the character count was higher if I'm just doing requests. Could I could I use a better app? What about upvotes and likes? Stressing my app.  

[01:26:03] Unknown:

Sorry. It's so easy.  

[01:26:06] Unknown:

What about I can do both.  

[01:26:08] ODELL:

How do we feel about that?  

[01:26:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm implementing likes and retweets right now.   I think lightning tips are gonna be next after that.   Yeah. Totally doable. There's another note type that you just Is that client side or relay side?   It's gonna require   I mean, it doesn't have relays don't have to change anything. It's just gonna clients are gonna create a new note type that you query on. So So basically sending a note that says, I like this.   Yeah. And you gotta be smart about it in the sense, maybe not count the same. Like, if someone creates multiple like events, you don't wanna count those twice. But for the most part, it's okay. And there's also issues, let's say, spam bots are creating lots of like events and, like, you count those. So maybe there's a reputation system around it, so it gets kinda complicated. But most people aren't even using Nostra, so I don't I'm not really worried about that right now. Right? So just just, something simple to start, I think.  

[01:26:56] Unknown:

I know there's a   I I think has an open pull request for a reputation scheme, but I haven't looked at it yet.  

[01:27:05] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. It's very, very simple   web of trust bank, but with with   categories. Like, you you you would trust someone on some category, but not on others.   And it's it was meant to be on the marketplace thing I would I was going to work on, but I jump into other things. I'll go back to it someday.   And, like, all these marketplaces,   decentralized marketplaces, they need some reputation thing. So, like, basically oh, yeah. One one big use case I wanted to make, but I couldn't get this.   Just if you go exchanging Bitcoin for field   based based on reputation only.  

This would not so would be the marketplace. I guess  

[01:27:46] Unknown:

I guess that could kind of   emulate   the workflow that happens on on BISK. Right?   Yeah. BISK.  

[01:27:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. This is so complicated.   Yeah. You can make a simplified version of it. I I want I was thinking just a trusted thing. Like, I send you the money, and I trust you for giving me my coin.   That works in many places. There are many people that do this kind of deal.   I think a little reputation goes a long way. And you could do, like, small small amounts too. So   but you could do the disc style too   if you want.  

[01:28:31] ODELL:

And then we have a question.   By the way,   as you were talking about spam, one of we got a spam message in, Twitch, which I thought was hilarious,   by followers, primes, and viewers. But we got a different,   message in Twitch   asking about, the origin of the name.   I know it stands for notes and other stuff transmitted by relays,   But is there a story behind that, or   did you just, like, decide one day that you're gonna  

[01:29:04] Unknown:

Well, I'm very good at anything.   So I just came the inspiration came. No. Actually, I was asking about people what name should be, and Supertestnet   gave gave me an idea. Like, he suggested something that was like that. And then I just speaking it to to and found,   like, a   a  

[01:29:25] Unknown:

good  

[01:29:26] Unknown:

a good, like, full name for the economy.   I don't know if it's a good name or whatever.  

[01:29:31] Unknown:

That's I mean, I none of us know how to pronounce it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very good name. Yeah. That's that's a great deal. I think we can all agree that you're not a bug. I think we can all agree that, yeah, Jeff is really good at naming things. So  

[01:29:43] ODELL:

Well, l n t x pod is a good name. It is. Yeah.   Very straight to the point.   Yeah. Well, guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I implore all our listeners to go check out Nostra,   provide feedback,   play around with it. If you're a developer, consider contributing.   Do you guys have any while I have you here, do you have any opinions on this,   bit 1 19 controversy?  

[01:30:19] Unknown:

I've been trying to stay out of it. I mean,   I I can see why people want covenants, and I'm, like, I don't know. I I'm personally not interested, so I've been trying to stay out of the fight. But I do I am concerned that it it was kinda getting pushed through pretty quickly without the lots of other review and other ways of looking at it. I don't know. I just it just feels wrong the way that it's been that it went about. But  

[01:30:41] Unknown:

yeah, I I love covenants, but I'm staying out of it.  

[01:30:47] Unknown:

Oh, I'm I'm for it. I think we should do it as quickly as possible.   And   what I think some of the arguments   or people that don't want it are are not   very sound in my opinion. And,   anyway, you should read what Jeremy is saying. Jeremy is is being very insightful   in the things he's   posting.  

[01:31:08] Unknown:

I do like the I do like the Vault use case, and then,   James's demo of it of that is pretty cool. I don't know if that's enough to, like, warrant pushing it through, but it is a really cool use case.  

[01:31:19] Unknown:

Well, I'm interested in space chains because I want to make a space chain to for domain names and replace DNS, and I can.   That's all I care. That's all I want. Like,   Bitcoin has so many money, and now Bitcoin will solve   DNS. And I don't think there's there's any man anymore anymore.  

[01:31:38] Unknown:

And if you don't You want a you want a space name coin?  

[01:31:42] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's a space chain without any coin. It's just the names and anchor it on Bitcoin.   No shit coins. No tokens.  

[01:31:51] ODELL:

Yeah.   On the note of shitcoins,   if you had Jeff, what are you what are your thoughts on Taro?  

[01:32:00] Unknown:

Oh,   I I don't like the shit coins. I don't I don't like token. I I understand that people some people want these things and as market.   And so it's fine. It's fine. But I also I think space chains are a better solution for people that want to to make tokens.   I just said no tokens, but you could have a space change for a space change for issued assets,   like like like   dollar tokens, etcetera.  

[01:32:28] ODELL:

So if we have bit 119 with CTV, we get space change without anything else? We get a space change. Yeah. Or either b 119 or b 118.  

[01:32:38] Unknown:

You can do with any of those.  

[01:32:41] ODELL:

Yeah. And what's the trade offs of space chains?  

[01:32:47] Unknown:

It's a separate blockchain   that you can publish stuff on it, but it doesn't have a native currency. So   you   there's no trade offs, basically. It's it's Netco.   There's definitely You have to mine you have to mine that that separate blockchain, and you mine it by entering   it on a on a Bitcoin transaction. Your an entire block of an entire space chain block fits in one transaction 1 Bitcoin transaction.  

[01:33:15] ODELL:

And then do you get paid for that?  

[01:33:17] Unknown:

Yeah. The miner is the person that gets paid for the space chain users and pays for the for the Bitcoin transaction. And you're they get paid in?   Yeah. That's that's the, yeah, that's the trade off. That's the problem. My in,   Rubin Thompson proposed the idea of having   Space Coin. That is a coin that is created from burning Bitcoins that use it to pay miners on the space chain, but I I don't like that. I think they could be paid off band, like, in a trusted sense. Like, you go to the miner website and say, mine this block this for me, and they mine it. And   it's censorship resistant because you have you can have multiple miners.  

Anyone can be a miner at any time. And the miners compete with each other by by bidding on the transaction that goes on the Bitcoin blockchain, and they they just if there are more than 1 miner competing,   they can outbid each other and not load the Bitcoin chain. They just in the end in the end of the bidding,   they one of them will publish one transaction   with a high bid a high fee to the bit Bitcoin chain. So could you use Noister in that bidding process?   The bidding process happens directly in the Bitcoin man pool. Like, you try to publish the next block, and you see that there's someone else outbidding your transaction. And you'll get you do outbid   it if you have more more money to be like. If you have more clients who are willing to to pay you for or you you can wait for the next block to   but you don't need an answer for that for that part. You could need an answer for the space chain part that coordinates the transaction being sent. If you don't wanna build a new peer to peer system like Bitcoin for the space chain, if this pure space chain is very simple, you could use Nasr   to propagate transactions there.  

So your transaction will change. Yeah. There are there are many ways to do it.   But the the basic idea is that all cool blockchain use cases,   you can do them now without any tokens, without coin, any shitcoins. And there are some there are these   issued   stable things. There are maybe NFTs that I don't like them, but maybe there some people   like. And   and also the domain name thing that's more the most important connection.   Why do you why are we laughing?  

[01:35:33] ODELL:

No. I'm just I we just we've just gone completely off track.   I mean, I appreciate the insight.   Before we wrap up, I guess, let's wrap up with some final thoughts.   Final thoughts, mister Kooks.  

[01:35:50] Unknown:

Yeah.   We should really just keep on building on Noster and not NFTs.   Yeah.  

[01:35:58] ODELL:

No NFTs.   Thank you, mister Kooks. Final thoughts via Jeff.  

[01:36:03] Unknown:

Well, try Browning,   but try to make a better client.   I I challenge you, listener.   Or  

[01:36:14] ODELL:

maybe Awesome. Rally. That's that's better. Thank you, Fia, Jeff. Will, final thoughts.  

[01:36:21] Unknown:

Yeah. I think,   I think we got we've gotten to the point where people think that these open protocols are just too hard to use or even just, like, it's too hard to run your own nodes. And,   but we're we're starting to see different trade offs in this this this, like, larger design spaces. Actually, it's not too hard to create this decentralized open protocol and to get into the network without without without having to run any nodes. Right?   So I think that is   one important insight that Nostra provides, and I hope there are more protocols like this. And, yeah, protocols are awesome, and we should try to avoid we should try to use protocols instead of, closed platforms.  

[01:36:55] ODELL:

Fuck. Yeah.   I actually just   I just one quick question,   before we end.   The most relays are holding all of my messages. Right? So I don't need to have my client online for you to view them.  

[01:37:11] Unknown:

Correct.  

[01:37:12] ODELL:

Awesome.   Okay. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming on. Appreciate your work with Nostra.   I came into this very   undereducated   on on the implications of Nostra, but it seems like   it is way larger than just a   Twitter replacement,   and I'm very bullish on that aspect. That seems really fucking cool and powerful.   And, I hope,   the freaks also   found this conversation helpful and and will contribute back and and help this project grow.   So with all that, I wanna I wanna thank our guests one more time,   and I wanna thank everyone who joined us live. Cheers, guys. Thank you.  



[01:38:02] Unknown:

Thanks. This is great. Thank you   very much.  

[01:40:19] Unknown:

What you'll get.   This is what   you'll   get.   This is what   you'll get   for your  

[01:42:33] ODELL:

Love you, freaks.   I think I'm gonna kick it with some Kendrick   on vinyl.   Stambled stack sets.