Citadel Dispatch

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Live from Miami with an in person audience. Sorry for the poor sound quality, tried our best, acoustics were not great in the venue.

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[00:00:05] Unknown:

What is up Miami?   To everyone listening,   from afar through the broadcast, we apologize ahead of time for this audio quality is horrible.   Having a great time to get back to some peers in the anniversary of executive order 6102 when MTR trying to steal all our grandparents gold and Satoshi used to invalid her birthday.   So they're our priority, and if this broadcast doesn't come out with quality, I will try and upload a better quality one afterwards.   So with all that said, I think this is our first ever it is our first ever   really in person dispatch. Last year in Miami, we did 1 in our penthouse Airbnb   because we thought it was gonna be 200 k by conference day.  

But this one, we actually may have been trying to make it as soon as possible. I wanna I wanna thank,   Ross for for putting this all together. He he was really fucking awesome when he came to me. He was like, we're doing good jobs in Miami. We got Jay coming to town. We would love to see this batch opened up.   It really could not have happened without him since you're sitting in.   With all that said, I think we have our great guests here. All of them are return guests on. So the dispatch, we got MBK. How's it going MBK?  

[00:01:42] Unknown:

Hey. Hey.   Hi. Can you oh, it's it's Is it working? Yeah. Just speak loudly. Yeah. So yeah. Hey. Nice to be here. It's like Bitcoin Twitter.  

[00:01:55] Unknown:

Thanks, MBK. We got our good friend Evan here. Evan, who this what's up? Hey, y'all. How's everyone doing today?   Thanks, Evan. Do you wanna go? What are you saying?  

[00:02:06] Unknown:

I just want just wanna say, you know, it's been awesome seeing the show grow the last year. Had to for putting out high quality signal every week.   Just   humbled and honored to be a little part of it.  

[00:02:21] Unknown:

Thanks, man. That means a lot.   And thanks to all the priests that made this possible, especially our not super turn guests. Paul, how's it going? Hello. Thank you for having me. We got Paul Miller here. What's up, Paul?   And now we have Tony. How's it going, Tony? Good with you.  

[00:02:45] Unknown:

So I can't We became friends from Sid. I'll dispatch Chad. Really? Yeah. That's because he was chatting, and I was on an episode, and I was like, I like I like this the way this guy thinks. The cut of his jib. I like the cut of his jib.  

[00:02:59] Unknown:

And now you guys are just constantly working together. Right? Look at this as jib.   So where do we wanna start? What are we what do you guys wanna talk about? I have a pretty open ended   I was thinking   we only have an hour. I was like, I don't want to make it a little bit juicy, and we have MBK here, and we have Paula here.   So we have a little conversation about open source licenses?  

[00:03:28] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:03:31] Unknown:

So, I mean, I I guess I guess to get started I guess to get started, why don't you go through MBK?   Your your thoughts for the change in cold cards open source license, and then we'll have   one of these guys jump in. Yeah. So  

[00:03:47] Unknown:

I I think   I think   what happened with us is that we are realized that   the business   is as important to the security of the device   as the software and the device itself.   So you cannot make,   like, really secure hardware without having a profitable business.   Right?   And Coinstrike has always been sort of like it's a lifestyle business for us. We do it because we want to.   And   we figured out that unless you have the the rotating revenue and capital   to invest in, you   know, security research and you have, like, real equipment   and   you have, like, you have to have, like, very large orders of manufacturers so you get the the good   stuff that's under NDA from the manufacturers of the chips. Because you wanna know all those little flaws.  

And to do that is very hard when you have   very turnkey cloners.   Right?   You can have somebody,   you know, sort of   contribute to your cold base,   that'll be great. But when people just take and don't give,   it makes it so that it's very hard to have a business around it. And,   you know,   we   for us, it's more important to have a a secure device   that that it is for us to  

[00:05:27] Unknown:

to have something that is, like, pure on the on the license base. So so let's just unpack that a little bit. So so the people who don't know what the controversy is,   Cold Guard was historically   a free open source license that was non restricted.   Anyone can modify it. Anyone can change the code so they could they could add to it. They could distribute it. They could sell it. They could do whatever the hell they want to do with it.   And then this company Foundation Devices came out.   And we didn't wanna mention it by name, but I just did. And they took that code base, and they raised a bunch of VC money off of it,   before they even shipped anything.  

And then   and then MBK   changed his license   to a more restricted license that was not free and open source, that was source vehicle   that basically allows people to modify it, but they can't distribute and sell it. Yeah. So it's it's even more permissive than that.  

[00:06:25] Unknown:

So we what we had is actually an extremely restrictive license,   copy left. Right? You're restricted   to have   the left   like, that that license has to survive.   Right? So that means that anybody who copied the source code needs to make it public again. It was specifically GPM. Right? It's it's specifically GPM. And   and and funny enough, you actually required the state to enforce that license.   So it's very non libertarian.   And funny enough, Satoshi chose, in my opinion, MIT because you can build a business on top of MIT, and you can have the whole base inside your whole base and do whatever you want. So, you know, in my opinion, truly   false   is MIT. Right? GPL is a complicated license that is a product that's of its size.  

And,   I think it's about the same. Anyways, so   it's it's   it's important   that,   you know, you have to essentially, like, be honest about the fact that, like, if there is people contributing,   it's great.   But we were essentially a single source   source code. Right? Meaning, we pay people ourselves   to write that source code.   You know, we have, like, the contributor here and there, but, you know, 90 and a half percent of the source code is ours. So it's not like a community project.   It's not like   you're just converting   the work of a lot of people into a new license and sort of screwing out. There's no rug pull. It's just ours. So much so that we were allowed to do that change.  

Anyways   so so that's where it stands. We we just we just don't wanna be in the same position that a lot of open source projects are, where the only people who reap the benefit   are, say, Amazon,   Google,   and the developers are then laughed sort of like begging for money.  

[00:08:19] Unknown:

And, you know, it's just not something I'm I'm for. So how could a business be competitive with your business   if you were using the same open source code? If you're saying   that that your business model doesn't work if anybody can easily clone you,   how does their business model work? How does any is nobody making any money? So, you know,  

[00:08:42] Unknown:

hardware is hard. Right? So there's, like, hard sort of, like, science involved and and, like, very sort of   it's   it's a it's a a much larger upfront investment in codes that you'd normally find in standard software projects. Right?   And,   we lose in different ways. For example, there is the affinity scamming,   right, where,   said cloner will go in podcast and say, hey. This is as secure as this other device.   Right? This is as good. And then they fuck up,   and   then people think that because they have the same code as we do   you know what I mean? Now we have a problem too. So for example, this device that's a corner is using a pound secure element.  

Right? There's not a lot of information out yet because everybody's on their NDA, but,   everybody has moved on, for example, from the the secure element version. They haven't because they don't have inventory of the new secured chip. Right? But now, again, it's just saying, hey. But we are the same security architecture. Right? So so there is the issue with that.   And then there's the issue of, like, chipping away from our market, Right? From the product that we built, the brand that we built, and and all the effort that we put into this.  

[00:10:00] Unknown:

I just I don't it's not my spirit to stand for that. So I guess my main two objection are are the first one is is the idea that I'm gonna have the state solve this, which is any any license that's at all restricted That's GPL. It's GPL, the state. All licensing all licensing is saying that the state is gonna solve Sure. Other than fully permissive.   But then the other side would be from a security standpoint.   I feel like I would be reticent   to look at your code   based on how you have,   talked about people who have copy pasted your code.   Yeah. And I was like, oops. Am I I was I was I was browsing through here to check your Yes. Security.  

I'm my finger slipped. I hit command c, and now I have one of your functions in my code base, and you're gonna, like, drag me. We don't care.  

[00:10:51] Unknown:

So our license That's one hell of a finger screen. So so yeah. That's that's, it's kinda funny because they use the codes that we wrote a 100% in their marketing materials, a picture. It's kinda hilarious. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The comments are changed. Yeah. The comments were changed. A lot of people pick up on that. But   the point is this,   first,   you know, most people are not like, it kinda sucks, but they're not qualified to review this kind of security level. There's, like, very few people that can.   What we need is people to review that is is building. Right? What you need is to write them, Russ. The what? You need to rewrite it or not. Right. Exactly.  

Rest is a shit break.   So   so, anyway, so   all licenses are state based, of course. Right? Otherwise,   like, you know, if you go back to, if you're gonna go back to proper libertarian principles, you'd say the way to resolve that is by having trade secrets. You cannot have trade secrets in open source   by definition. Right? So those two things are kinda still incompatible. We don't have a good answer for that.   The other thing is, you know,   raising VC on top of somebody else's code is also fiat. Right? It's also based on the same system that licenses are based on violence, whatever you wanna call it. So,   you know, in a world in which   I can build my thing and there isn't VCs available for a cloner to go shop around my stuff, it's cool. We're we're listen. We tried.  

That was the goal. We're gonna try to make this that way. It didn't work, so we switched it. Right? We're a defensive company.   We will behave defensively.   Right?   And I guess, like, another   yeah. So so there really is is is the issue with the VCs that they will just willy nilly sort of, you know, invest in a company like that, probably because they didn't even know that that it was essentially on source code.   And we actually put out an extremely permissive license.   It's extremely permissive. You can do whatever you want to the call. You can copy. You can sell it. You can do whatever you want. You just cannot build a cloning company.   That's the only restriction.  

Yeah. What is it simply? You can't make a commercial product out of it? Exact that's it. So you can't just you can sell it. No. You can sell yours.   So you as the user is protected.  

[00:13:18] Unknown:

What do you mean you can sell yours? Your your unit.  

[00:13:21] Unknown:

Right? It's your property.   Oh, and you can sell your individual company. You you yeah. Exactly.   You just can't start a competing. Hey.   You only bought 1.  

[00:13:33] Unknown:

Right? You only bought 1. Right? I mean, I lost some all my Bitcoin and Treasure fishing fishing hacking. I don't use I don't use your devices.   So, I mean, you guys are all major proponents   that free up to our software.   Do you not have any   comments for MBK? Is he in the right year? Is he   Yeah. I mean, I like, at the end of the day, like, we're  

[00:13:56] Unknown:

all having our personal money. Like, you know, we're we're running, you know, we're we're using, like, an open source, and,   no permission. Like, we don't need the same permission. Right? But the real kinda turnaround, we, like, all have permission, like,   you know, government,   permission based combos.   So, like, at the end of the day, like, you know, like, what Paul said, you know, we are asking the states for divorce licenses, basically. Yep.   That's just kind of the reality of the situation right now. Like, you know, if you wanna like, honestly, I would be all for, like,   and on out there just, like, take just, like, ripping off, like, you know, just licenses left and right or, like, code that's licensed left and right and not give it a fuck because it's like, well, if they created this anonymous, like, quote, unquote business and anonymous, you know, like, you know, they're not gonna solve they're not gonna go to the state to solve the problems. You know? I would be all for,   you know, quote, unquote rip offs, you know, some of the stuff. I would love to get into a situation where we aren't going to the state to, like, have businesses we operate, and then and then we can actually kind of solve all that. I guess, like, the reality of the situation is, like, you know, that's kind of the environment we're all in right now. We have to sort of be offensive.  

Yeah. So I don't know. My thoughts have sort of, like, changed over over the last couple of years. Just just to add to that,  

[00:15:13] Unknown:

I think there's a general   sort   of camaraderie   and sort of, like, morality that comes with all this.   You know, there is a difference between you contributing to a cold base and then forking off because you don't like it or because you wanna try something different   as opposed to just taking the whole code base, removing the comments,   and starting a company.   Right? That's what I call a dick move.  

[00:15:38] Unknown:

Well, that's why my original suggestion is just add to your license that if I clone this and start a company, I'm a dick.  

[00:15:46] Unknown:

Yeah. No. No. We we actually I call it a dick. Asset. Yeah. The dick clause.  

[00:15:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Put a dick clause in there, and they have to keep the dip. It it it would Yeah. It's like a virus. On the screen.   So yeah.   It's but how do you want? So, like, you know, if they if they get hacked, it because they were actually bad at what they're doing. You know? Well, it's like, well, it says I'm a dick. I don't know. That's right. I don't know. Like You know, funny enough, we actually thought about making a joke license where but for real on the product, it's like everyone can use this for commercial purposes but  

[00:16:17] Unknown:

you.  

[00:16:20] Unknown:

I know you do. I mean, so I I just to zoom out, like, I why I like open source so much, I think we because we live in a world with so much regulation.   Like, I just thought the other like, a little shower thought of of,   we have sales tax. Right? So every time you wanna sell something so every time you transfer ownership with, you know, paid for by money,   there's a tax.   That   limits all activity where we might wanna have a high frequency exchange of goods. Like, I don't I couldn't even imagine, like, why   someone is, like, selling a toaster back and forth, you know, like, a 1000 times a second. Like, that's literally impossible. So I think   every, regulation   has a sort of hidden cost like that. And I think,   information   cannot be owned. That's a ridiculous concept.  

And so when we add some state based enforcement,   and now, like, you know, Katy Perry's getting sued   for her song because it sounds a little bit like other song. Well, it turns out most of the music I like sounds like other music. Yep. And so now you you know, so we're always when we're we're allowing the state to dictate our actions in this way, we're really limiting the what is possible   and and hacking with,   with code, we're we're limiting   who can be involved, how fast we iterate, who can verify,   you know, who can run by, who can who can sell it. And so I'm, you know, I'm just I'm just worried about it in in that sense. That that said, I haven't built a business   based on,   you know, like a hardware business based on open source code. That is,  

[00:18:05] Unknown:

a pretty rare thing right now. It is. And there is a reason why you don't see open hardware out there. Right?   It's not like you can just, like,   sit   and apply your knowledge and boom, you have a product. Right? With hardware, like, you have to buy all this stuff. You have to either rage with all the stuff that has hard costs. Right? There's all this overhead that's completely upfront.   That's your r and d, right, that you have to recuperate if you wanna still exist.   Right? And if you have unfair competition,   right, you're gonna it's possible that you simply won't exist, right, because they can undercut you because they haven't spent all the money doing their r and d. So they can technically   take the margin out of their product, right, and just go compete with you unfairly.  



[00:18:52] Unknown:

This is another shout out. Sorry. Sorry about too many shout outs right now. But,  

[00:18:58] Unknown:

we we basically we   had an industrial revolution,   and we made so many products cheaper, and we were kind of ramping up in the, our civilization level.   And then I don't know what year it was, but so we kinda leveled up, and we never got to the point of industrializing   industrial  

[00:19:18] Unknown:

I I I think we did. Like, if you if you look at iPhone   for for all the hate that Apple gets,   it is absolutely   remarkable what's inside here. Like, this is this is like   a pinnacle of civilization what's what's literally done inside this thing. You have one of the most modern computers   that exists. You have 17 radios.   This thing can talk in any country.   Okay?   It's just   most people just can't understand   side. Right? What I'm saying is that we, like, democratize  

[00:19:55] Unknown:

having service because we made dishwashers.   But we didn't democratize   industrial production.  

[00:20:01] Unknown:

Like, it's they're very because The production we did is the inventing of the things that go into production that has it. Right? Because you still need a human to invest time, capital, opportunity, cost to go invent something.   Like, we don't make pull cards in my house.   Right?   We   we have a factory that then makes cold cards. It happens that we now, like, have most of the production of the factory. But, like,   it really is just us sort of inventing a thing, make it into a thing that can be actually produced   in quantity, which is completely different. Right?  

It's not like a Raspberry Pi that, like, has some stuff on top that like, no. This is, like, a thing   that has access to parts, has access to manufacturing methods,   right, that then goes into production and can be sort of, like, made many times so people can sort of use it in an industrial capacity.   And and I think, like, a huge part of the FOSS movement,   especially because Stalin was a bit commie,   is that that's why I'm more on the MIT side, right, on that sort of discussion, is that   people don't understand business.   So it pisses me off. I know so many people who are absolutely brilliant, not making money.  

I want them to make money to make even more brilliant things.  

[00:21:22] Unknown:

Yeah.   But I but I also think of I think of open source as as as really as as charity.   Like, it is a gift you're giving to the world. I And and you're trying to you you instead of   instead of making a product that is a one to one exchange,   they get something out of it, you get something out of it. You're you're giving something to basically everyone all at once. People are not equal.  

[00:21:46] Unknown:

And,   and charity is not   a way of moving society forward. I I am a huge fan of charity.   Love you. Yeah. So, like, I love charity on a personal level. Right? Like and helping people that may need.   But charity   is not how you invent everything.   Like,   again, I like to use that for example because they are as close as it gets. Right? Like, it's also adult days to have real units.   But, like, you wouldn't be able to invent, like,  

[00:22:22] Unknown:

a a process to make Sapphire in scale if it wasn't for Apple. Well, we also you know, we can't, do spatial of the scale. You know, that was just like Fiat   folly, you know. Like, let's do all these ridiculous engineering things that we can do because we're stealing everybody's money. They can do those things because they have, you know, sort a sort of a monopoly position. Well, it's not really. I mean, like, you know, Android copied  

[00:22:45] Unknown:

most of the things that they did successfully. Right? So much so that now we have 2 options, a bar of soap and a bar of soap. Right? There is no creativity in phones anymore. We've achieved   phone Nirvana in terms of design, which is   flat screen with some 50 cameras on the other side. Right?   Because this is this is what people need. Right now, all the advancements that they're doing, which are absolutely remarkable,  

[00:23:10] Unknown:

are inside the box. I don't know that it's exactly what what people need. We don't really know what people need. Most people can't make what they want. So people can't make their own tools, so they have to receive  

[00:23:22] Unknown:

tools from whoever has enough capital to build. If, you know, if you ask a user what he wants, is that meme of Homer Simpson making his car.   Remember? Like, with all the poster,  

[00:23:32] Unknown:

the dash, and the The the kids are in the back. You know? So Exactly. Right?  

[00:23:39] Unknown:

Users don't know what they want because they don't know what's possible either. Right?   It's,   trying to make a business out of open source. And listen, listen, we still have another 50 projects that are all open source, and we contribute to open source, and we found open source, and all we should. It's just this specific whole base has some restriction. Right?   It's not simple. Like and there is very few companies that do it, like, especially on hardware. And, like, I'm trying stuff out.   Some things work, some things won't, some things people love, some people who, like, hate us. You know? It's like  

[00:24:15] Unknown:

So,   since the cloner came out,  

[00:24:19] Unknown:

do you think it's significantly   her coin cut's business? No.  

[00:24:24] Unknown:

I mean, you know, I know the numbers because,   you know, people people talk, but, like, it's it's not like no. It didn't. So  

[00:24:34] Unknown:

maybe it It may be too much difference to your bottom line if we had a full flash license. So here's an interesting thing.  

[00:24:42] Unknown:

Since they started,   all their users are asking for all the features that we added after the license change.   So they haven't   they haven't introduced any single feature   or bug fix since they changed the code. You know, they changed some stuff based on their things. But,   and their users are asking for the stuff that we added after, and they can't just pull and merge.   It's fascinating, isn't it? That they were not capable of doing those things, but they would get those things for free   if we change the license. So who knows? Maybe they go out of business, we change the license back.  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

I think you have like a really,   you know, passionate consumer base, but you have a great product. And I think, ultimately, even if you did have that false license, I think you guys would continue to strive and prosper. Probably. That that's that's all I really say on, on this run. Well, thanks for liking the product.   But yeah. I mean,   I really don't have a problem   really with these restrictive licenses   in commercial sense as long as the users really,   you know, have the liberty to do with it what they want.   More so, I I have more problems with people, like, you know, falsely   advertising their licenses fast when they're not. I think you guys did a good job switching in on the website to a big source viewable. That's that's a good step. You know, I did that just because sort of tired of drama. I still disagree with OSI. I I there's some nuance to the debate. OSS   versus FOS.  



[00:26:15] Unknown:

What's what's OSI? So OSI is this org that claims to be the arbiter of what definitions exist for, FOS, non FOS, FOS.   So I think there is a I think we'd lose a lot in this space because it turns off a ton of extremely talented people that are not into   the true,   like,   fully   open source thing, the free is free as in freedom,   right,   of that license,   they they would gladly contribute,   and their contribution would be massive. There's a lot of people, like, that are incredibly talented working in a basement somewhere getting paid that would totally contribute to this if they could have some restrictions.   And and I think there's a massive difference. Right? Because   people try to use the FOSS, meaning free open source versus open source, just open   source, as a way to send back projects that are not free open source. So they say, you know, oh, if you if you if you're just source viewable, you're closed source.  

Right? Because they're trying to   to, like, guess, like,   the fact that it is viewable   and it is verifiable   and it is maybe editable and poppable.   Because they may have a competing product. So they they want to sort of, like, create this this flame wars around us, and it's such a shame   because the only people who who gain from that is, you know, is Amazon and Google. Like, I mean,   the money that Amazon and Google make from open source software that devs are now making is monumental.   I mean, AWS makes more money than Amazon   products,  

[00:27:58] Unknown:

and it's all, like, essentially false. Isn't that an argument for GPL over MIT? No. Because GPL wouldn't matter. Right? They because they don't they don't use GPL software   because they don't want, like, a poison pill of needing to contribute back to open source in that situation.  

[00:28:22] Unknown:

Product in your stack, right, the rest of the stack pretty much has to be opened up. Kinda. So, like, if someone wants to, you know, perhaps,   you know, pull in an open source project into maybe a more greater commercial thing, maybe they're getting out grants,   you know, in a lot of cases, they might ask you to move your license from GPL to MIT or at least do, like, a dual licensing thing. That's, like, the big thing   between  

[00:28:46] Unknown:

the Yeah. License. Yeah. CopyLabs gets very complicated very fast,   and and it gets complicated very fast because people get lawyers involved very fast too,   because it's copied left.   Anyways  

[00:29:04] Unknown:

Well, I mean, thank you guys for this conversation. I mean, I feel like everyone was   pretty fair with it. I was hoping it was gonna be juicier.   Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.   It's not me.  

[00:29:16] Unknown:

Oh, it it's me. Yeah. You're Wait. You know, can we get a little juicier? Yeah. Cameron. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So my so my main problem   with 8 big source licenses. I mean, number 1, misrepresenting   what kind of license you really are. That's a really big one.   But the other thing that really grinds my gear is, when you when you steal someone's source code.   And,   Rodolfo,   this sort of goes to you. This is not about the treasure license,   but rather an another project. I feel like, you personally took out from,   and, it's it's called Bitcoin bounties.  

And and funny enough, the the funny thing about this is that we have the guy  

[00:29:57] Unknown:

who started the Yeah. He is.  

[00:29:59] Unknown:

No. No. No. No. He he he's on the panel right here, and, I'm gonna I'm gonna just set this bottom up in the stinker and some follow-up.  

[00:30:18] Unknown:

Yeah.   And We are listed there.  

[00:30:21] Unknown:

It decays the hands slipped in the hands. Yeah. 100%.   Yeah. Yeah. No. I was so I was so grateful because it   here's my mindset.  

[00:30:41] Unknown:

This is charity.  

[00:30:42] Unknown:

Yeah. No. That's a full charity version. We pay for people to develop that site  

[00:30:47] Unknown:

and, like, here. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love it.  

[00:31:16] Unknown:

See, this is how bad the licenses are. If there is no license   on a project that's out there,   you essentially have to inform that it's closed source.   But the source is open and it's beautiful.   It's a clusterfuck. So, like, what happens what happens, you know, post type of big organization,  

[00:31:35] Unknown:

post Bitcoin world, the state's way smaller.   Do we just does everyone just use everyone's codes, copyright No.  

[00:31:43] Unknown:

People are gonna move back to the old days, which is trade secrets.   I see, this is like a lot of open source people don't understand   that, like, the default state   of a of, like, a business,   right,   is to protect   the value that it created so that it can generate a profit. Right?   You know, we're all more permissive. We're all trying to build a better world, so we're trying to do this things in an open source way. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it succeeds.   But,   the default place before this licenses   was   what means this this practice   himself as a secret.  

Right? So if people cannot find a way to protect all the effort they put in,   me, if they are building stuff that can be easily sort of, like, wrapped up and clone, is they just close it.   That that's kind of what happened to Ledger, by the way. Ledger,   way, way back then was BTC chip. That was the name of the product.   It was actually old,   but but your phone is starting to show up. Transfer   actually changed their license to Microsoft's   viewable library only. And then they got so much flack from the community   that they they then rolled back that commit to GitHub and change the GPL   from MIT.  

So they themselves are the same thing. It's just we don't give a fuck. So, like, we're like, okay. We're gonna move this to something that we think should be. I I just feel like it's  

[00:33:15] Unknown:

what what are why are they so scared?  

[00:33:18] Unknown:

What is it? They're scared. It's like you write something down and people copy it and do  

[00:33:31] Unknown:

What are you so scared of? What are you so scared of? You're making the strength. You have the the the beloved cold car. We're gonna make peace of position in state. Well, but but you're asking your mom, the government, to protect Yes.  

[00:33:44] Unknown:

The same way you're asking your doctor to make sure your airplane is checked before we flew you.   You know, send it for me. No. Yeah. Yeah. I would abolish the TSA. I mean, literally, I I No. No. That's not the TSA, the FAA.  

[00:33:57] Unknown:

Well, this is Boston too.   We have a low light frequency because of all this spacing. We don't have flying. We have all these regulations that make our our our business coming   a 100 times more expensive than that after the year. Preaching to the fire,  

[00:34:14] Unknown:

The problem is we do live in a fiat world. Yeah. And as long as we have fiat capital available   for somebody to just clone stuff. Okay? Because here's what could happen. Okay?   So let's say it is still subpar.   Right? The device that a clone has.   But   they find they're very good at sales to receive. They find, say, a 100 x capital.   They could do exactly what Uber did to taxi drivers. They can go. They lower the price. They take everybody out of the What is?   They lower yeah. And then, you know, they I'm not gonna be your They raise. Before people over   they   They they they they run the pool. They took half of the taxi drivers out of the out of business. Right?  

And then plain matured. Right? Because the the poor tax drivers in Florida don't have a choice. They have to buy that stupid fucking with that. Right?   And so they have to charge them a lot more. And their price is actually gonna be there too. It's just like you can't escape the tentacles of the state   leaving in a world  

[00:35:21] Unknown:

that we live in. The state is designed to have you have a successful business, you   become friends with the state, and you have a state to, like, get to your position. And what we need is a lot more freedom especially when you business going down the business all the time, failing  

[00:35:37] Unknown:

all the time because they're not actually   serving people anymore. How they put in   the VCs in that? Because see Screw the VCs. Yeah. But but see,   you know, you Not awesome. Yeah. No. Listen. I know some good VCs. VCs, but, like, just in general, the the the dirty VC, not the gig VC. Right?   So you you don't live in a vacuum.   Right? You can still have somebody come and essentially undercut you by getting free product for a year.   Right? And then you go out of business.   Right? And then they jack up the price again. Consumers are just too fucked, and the consumers not have a worse product.   This happens in a lot of this is literally,   Peter Teals, like, model. It's like you find an industry.  

Right? You you break the legs of every competitor. You become a monopoly.   And then   and then you go and you check up the price.   So so   I still don't have an answer on how to handle that model. Right? If I find that answer   and that includes   having even more permissive licenses,   I would.   I just don't have an answer.  

[00:36:53] Unknown:

Abolish the FAA. Abolish the FAA.  

[00:36:55] Unknown:

I don't know, man. See,   if you look at the accident rate   on, private airplanes, which is 2 FAA certified,   but now the pilots are not as much because it's the duty who flies on Sunday, they fall a lot more than flying for March. The FAA  

[00:37:10] Unknown:

was dismissed to the mass mandate.  

[00:37:12] Unknown:

You know, I I struggle with this a little bit because, see, amateur radio, right,   is a licensed,   privilege in pretty much every country. Right? Because,   you know, with the right gear, you can literally stop all flights   within, like,   30 kilometers of your house.   And and it's, like, talk about 2, $300 worth of gear. Right?   So what they did is they licensed everybody because at least the people learn how to do it. Like, I hate licenses. I hate the barrier of entry for people to have this thing, but I also don't have a good answer to that because Yeah. Just round all the planes. They'll figure it out.  

[00:37:50] Unknown:

It is, it's like I I I I couldn't understand all the last time. Already told all the timelines, but, you know, the reason we have Wi Fi is the 2.4 gigahertz Yes. Not used because our bodies are made of water and water absorbs 2.4 gigahertz so that so it's like it's like the shit coin of Spectrum.   So nobody wanted it. And, and and so they like, what what if we tried, like, to solve all this interference and they made white line because it was it was unreserved. But, you know, 2.4 actually goes through walls, which is quite nice,  

[00:38:22] Unknown:

while the original cordless phones were about 7 to a 100 megahertz. Right? And that's the same as your microwave. That's why your cordless phone never worked to the microwave or so on,   but and it shows the leaks. But,   those didn't go through well as through walls as well.   Yeah. No. Spectrum is complicated.   But it it it gets tricky. Right? I mean, we do live in complex societies with very complex, like, infrastructure.   Maybe that's a product of government getting their hands in everything.   But, you know, I don't wanna also subscribe to the all or nothing either. Right? I mean, like, you know, no government, but governance.   Right? Like, humans still need to organize themselves and and find, like, some way around that. And as we invent technologies that have, like, more outsized,   secondary effects and more externalities,   you do have to find ways of of, you know, dealing with that.  

It's like, you know, your neighbor not having, you know, fire alarms and you having addressable ones. Right?   Do we want to manage for alarms? No.   Heat's house could get my house on fire.  

[00:39:27] Unknown:

All fire alarms.  

[00:39:33] Unknown:

Anyways,  

[00:39:34] Unknown:

I mean, at least, like, firewall on Craigslist. You can still have your own firewall on it if you want. Right? Yeah. So I could. So,   I mean, we have 20 minutes left. I   you know, one of the close course of the dispatch needs audience participation.   And, obviously, you guys are in the live chat right now.   I was kinda thinking about it. Like,   I see a hand over there. There is a hand. Can someone pass   pass him on mic? Hello, bud.   Thanks,   Bob.  

[00:41:14] Unknown:

Will publish open source partner schematics.   And the idea is that they're trying to attract business   by   democratizing the knowledge, and they have a specialty to build them.   So that's not obviously you know, and so, basically, you have the United States IP heavy, a lot of big innovators.   But where you guys should make it, you you make it to China.   So I I think there's something really interesting there, but I think what the the big principle is is, like,   trade secrets and redeem and don't live with fear. Like, just stop me. I'm so afraid. So this is fascinating thing. Do you know why  

[00:41:52] Unknown:

China does that? Because China doesn't build software.   It only builds the hardware.   And the hardware can be reverse engineered. So you take the design they already know. Like, you know, my design goes to Chinese factory. They can just, like, you know, in in 10 minutes, remake my software. To be reversed.   Well, yes.   But the kind of talent and the kind of culture you need to have to make good software still doesn't exist in China.   Right? So much so that most of Chinese projects are still still have either cracked software.   Right? I mean, if that anybody use DJI,   drones. Right? I mean,   it's something,   the app that they use. But the hardware is absolutely brilliant.  

Right? So   hardware and software are very different. And but when you make the whole banana as a company,   right, you have both   problems   and both solutions. Right? So it's like,   you really try to, like, straddle a very complicated line there of, like, how do you handle this stuff? Right? How do you handle competitors? How do we handle the factory trying to copy you? For example, we don't make the stuff in China mostly for security. But   it's not a simple thing.   And all the chips,   there really is where the magic is, not the PCB and, you know, some stupid LC circuit or whatever. Like, the actual chips are fully fully closed  

[00:43:18] Unknown:

nice. I'm worried about that when we have a lot of special magic and maybe there's an argument against trade secrets. But, like, you know, we are it is not a guarantee that civilization progresses up and we get smarter and we know more and we learn more. It's very easy to lose knowledge with civilizationally   and to drift. And if we don't manage to pass along information because we're gonna have to hide it or we protect it, some people don't feel like they can look at it.  

[00:43:46] Unknown:

But that's why, like, I I wish we had just, like, better, more of compass because none of the shit would be necessary. Right? If people just didn't come and, like, do the business on top of your stuff immediately,   you know, we wouldn't have changed our license.   Right? Or, like, other people would have contributed back. They they could have contributed back to our project.   Right? And then we would not feel morally entitled   to to do that either. Right?   That's where the the the trust and verify part comes in. Right? We're still humans and we still need some trust. We still need to, like, sort of find   some cohesion and sort of work together towards things.  

So we have to trust each other to not be dicks.   It's like, don't be a dick really is the best way of handling business. And when people are dicks, you need a solution. Try to a scaling solution. Exactly. The exact  

[00:44:39] Unknown:

opposite of that. Right? Just assume everyone's a dick and still  

[00:44:42] Unknown:

Exactly. Right? Because That's the beauty. But but also, Bitcoin is also in IT, and it can be embedded in any other thing. But then also, like, open source  

[00:44:52] Unknown:

software that you can verify is also operating on the same assumption. You don't have to trust that people aren't a dick because you can verify yourself.  

[00:45:00] Unknown:

Well, that that's the challenge that was found. Right? Like, we cannot have trade secrets.   Right. Right? Because then you're gonna be able to verify.   So, like, it's it's a their culture gets to be Oh, yeah. I have another question.  

[00:45:13] Unknown:

Sweet.   Is licensed. Right? But then  

[00:46:00] Unknown:

in all that may come dates if their code isn't open  

[00:46:43] Unknown:

The like, from a, like, a libertarian or anarchist   perspective,   you can't steal information.   So in a sense, nobody's being harmed   in that   act. That's not how I do it. So, yeah, they went and copied a bunch of code.   And as far as the it was illegal. I mean, that's just a whole whole mess.  

[00:47:06] Unknown:

Yeah. So when someone,   like, hit at 4 of them, they start building it out. Right? It's still not  

[00:47:13] Unknown:

forking the reputation of the company. They're not forking their customer base. There's a whole other social component to it that, you know, just can't be recreated   at the click of a button.  

[00:47:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   Again, it's one of those things that it depends on what the scale and and what parts of the system it touches to.   You know,   we assume   that all our new text,   suite is being used by, say, Cloner. Right? But we can't prove it. Right? And,   you know, they'll probably delete it from their computers if there was ever a concern.   And   it's,   I I think I'm a capitalist first   in a sense.   I want   people who create value to society   to be   remunerated   for the value that's created.   I see   I don't like to see brilliant people having to beg for money,   and   we do live in a 5th world still. So   I'd rather they be pragmatic,   figure out a way of monetizing   their brilliantness   so they keep on doing that and adding value to society.  

Right?   And, you know, maybe   maybe they release they change the license as the last version went or something. You know, there's no clear answers.   But, you know, for as long as we have the money printer, the incentives are malaligned.   Right?   And and then malalignment is what causes people to be dicks.  

[00:48:50] Unknown:

And so how does it change post Bitcoin then? Keep saying, like, we live in Fiat work. We have Fiat problems.  

[00:48:56] Unknown:

What is Well, I mean, for for 1, I mean, you can't just go and build, you know, hardware and then under a petro competitor because you're not gonna have access to free capital.   Okay. Right? Who's gonna give you free capital in a world where the liquidity cost is high?   Subscribers.  

[00:49:50] Unknown:

And it actually they, you know, and so you make some chips when I'm you gotta remember. Chase.   They have, like, some kind of, like,   you know, that's why specifically   with marble slices.   You as a plumber cannot   attain that piece of hardware because   they're gonna excel because you violated that final license. So  

[00:51:03] Unknown:

I mean, if you just start from reality,   like, a little bit, it's like all wires close.   Okay? Everything. All your Raspberry Pis are closed source. Everything that you have It's found. It's found.   Every single   chip that you have on something, even if the source of it is viewable, it's closed.   Okay, boom. All every single block that goes in the die.  

[00:51:27] Unknown:

Say sound, please. Say cone.  

[00:51:29] Unknown:

Pound. Pone.   I can't do this.   So,   you know, it becomes a sort of like LARPing exercise of, like, which part of the stack is closed, which part of the stack is open.   It,   you know, like, I   choose not to live in a LARPing world.   Like, I I just find it very counter sort of productive in that sense.   I I rather sort of, like, try to just, like, move forward a little bit with the stuff where possible   and commercially viable?   Because,   you know, DIY   doesn't scale, and it's not really as good as most commercial stuff, Right? Realistically speaking. So   how can we make sure that we have high quality commercial stuff that has some decent values in it, right, and move society forward.  

So that's sort of like the space I'd rather be in. And then, like,   you know,   I love the in cap stuff.   I still don't have a lot of answers, and I don't think anybody ever did. And if you read even miss this, like, there is no full answer there to to handle especially modern complex societies. Well, if we did, then it'd be an argument for sex plan.   Exactly. Right? We like, it's messy. Right? And you you just progressively become even more messy as we have less government.   You know, governance without central planning,   by definition, is decentralized. Right? And rough consensus   is gonna be true on all this stuff.  



[00:53:02] Unknown:

Well, we argue that the complexity that gets added without the central planning is worth it, and it outweighs the negatives of the central platform.  

[00:53:09] Unknown:

It it depends on what we consider central planning and, like, you know, sure.   Stupid, like, modern government democracy stuff is all, like, done in bed. But, like,   you know, you can still have, like, say we run a Citadel. Right?   We we still gonna have some centralized   committees,   like, sort of sorting out stuff because we don't wanna make duplication.   Right?   We don't need more than 1 podcast.   Bumps?   No. See,   there is no answer to any of this stuff except from like, you know, like, you put your ass on the line, you build something, you try to sell it, and then you just handle the market as it comes. Twitter fact checkers have determined that statement is misleading.  

[00:53:55] Unknown:

Awesome. It does have to be related to Yes. By the way. Yep.  

[00:54:50] Unknown:

Yeah. That's fair. Source. That's I just think like That that's totally fair.   You know, I can see how from a user perspective,   like, you know, the the QR thing is like it looks like this big thing. Right? But that's, like,   0.3%   of the bulk base.   Right? The true value of the fame is that we don't lose your money. Right? So no. That's totally fine. Right? But now   if first of all, there is what Peter wants. Right? Like, Peter says he wants some QR or something like that. Like, that is not true for the market. Like, so much so that, you know, Tresno is still selling a design from   2013 that is gonna secure. Ledger   sells Jesus Christ.  

Concealed   devices   and the device, like, you could barely read the screen. Right? So there is sort of like a a fake demand for it.  

[00:55:42] Unknown:

It's cool and all people wanna do it. I don't think you'll know the demand to product yourself.  

[00:55:47] Unknown:

Sure.  

[00:55:48] Unknown:

She's a fake Or you just use it, you know, never shared with people that know about it.   Clearly   ways   you're having through SD cards and just  

[00:55:58] Unknown:

Wait. Because you haven't lost money on a bed of QR yet. Right? Or  

[00:56:03] Unknown:

I mean, like, Spectrum is designed to use a particular wireless camera system and  

[00:56:08] Unknown:

But we don't know when it's from the other device. No. But it gets complicated. Right? So a stack of complexity there.   I can appreciate that some people may want that,   but, you know, it the demand is so low that the phone didn't sell even, I think, about half of the devices they had.   Right? They just gave it away to try to sort of build some some, like,   you know, like, influential demand or whatever. Right?   Yeah. I   I I totally feel that,   but, you know, first, we cannot appease everyone.   Right? Everyone wants something different.   You know, we can't make more business decisions based solely on these things because, you know, the world is not fair,   and people don't act morally and and, like, you know, they're gonna do stupid stuff. So, you know, we may lose a few customers.  

That was a known   sort of, like,   problem with changing dial license, and I appreciate that. But you know what actually happened?   We actually innovated more. Right? We we've been continuously adding more features, and we actually grew   by,   like, almost, like, 10 x.   So so, like, the market is is rewarding. That no no more. So what? Make other products as well though. So, like, you grew,   Well, it it did. Like, we're gonna learn about art to this tomorrow.   Do you build stuff? Do you build stuff?  

[00:58:12] Unknown:

Not too much.  

[00:58:14] Unknown:

No. But, like, see, this is the fact. It's very   if you're not shipping a product,   right, yourself,   it's a lot easier to have opinions like that because   you are not the one who actually pays the bills   to get a factory to build inventory or to source parts or to develop the stuff. Right?   I forego opportunity cost to make that happen.   Right?   While you're not shipping it. Right? So you're not feeling that pain. And and, you know, to you, it may seem like a simple   sort of, like,   moral   understanding of, like, you know, like, respect versus not whatever. Right? And it's   fair. Right? But it it's a very unwise view because,   again, it's no skin in the game. Right? And   again, it sucks that we may lose people like you I'd love to have as a customer.  

Right? Because mark 4 is awesome.   But,   you know, I I really I can't appease everybody. And and I'm following the market here, and we're trying to make the thing that we actually like. The thing that we wanna make.  

[00:59:23] Unknown:

I just wanna say I really appreciate your questions and comments. Yeah. We have one more question and then we gotta wrap this video.  

[00:59:58] Unknown:

I I I think, like, what happened,   like, just from our perspective is just a lot of noise   and sucking of oxygen   based on our   sort of work.   And,   you know, just fuck it. Like, you know what? I'm gonna cut you off. If you're gonna be a dick in my stuff, I'm gonna cut you off. I have no issues with that. I don't see that as a bad thing.  

[01:00:23] Unknown:

Just that.   This has been a great conversation. I'd like to end in the final thoughts.   We are closing up on time. Tony, final thoughts. So we did that man to Mike as it's still been a while. I'm just, your good, good face.  

[01:00:37] Unknown:

No. I can Accomplished.  

[01:00:38] Unknown:

Yeah. What did you do with it?   That's fucking good. We appreciate your help with that. It's been a long time for me.   Final thoughts, Evan.  

[01:01:19] Unknown:

Looking very much for,   Goldkart or reverting their license at some point. In the meantime, I still need for.   Maybe begrudgingly.   Run your end mode   and, download, please.  

[01:01:32] Unknown:

Thanks, Evan. I mean, David, what books?  

[01:01:35] Unknown:

Mark   Forrest,   we have, like, really oversubscribed   the reservations.   I hope to start shipping it next week.   Nobody heard that.   And,   the cards are coming out. And, anyways, just check our stuff.   We keep on innovating   even though,   it is a complicated license.  

[01:01:58] Unknown:

Thank you, MJ. And I wanna thank everyone for joining us. I wanna thank Ross for us, the team, and help put this together.   I'm really looking forward to mid depths.   We have food and drinks in the back. I'm helping yourself before mid death starts. It should starting about 25 minutes.   I hope to see most of you in the open source stage over the next 3 days. It's absolutely massive at the conference.   It was way bigger than I expected,   and,   cheers. I love you all, Sam. Success.