Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 60

BLOCK: 729598

PRICE: 2093 sats per dollar

TOPICS: bitcoin circular economy, privacy, the power of meetups, onboarding local merchants, kyc tradeoffs, buying a laundromat and using it to stack sats

https://citadeldispatch.com/cd60

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[00:00:02] Unknown:

Couldn't get through an interview without asking about crypto, but in particular, Russia just said that they would accept   Bitcoin as a payment,   for   their energy,   resources.   What does that say to you about where we are in the crypto conversation?  

[00:00:20] Unknown:

Well, crypto has obviously   grown by leaps and bounds, and,   it's now playing a significant role, not really so much in transactions   Right. But in investment decisions of lots of Americans.   And,   the president just issued a couple of weeks ago   an executive order   tasking us and other agencies   with   thinking about the regulation  

[00:00:49] Unknown:

of crypto. I mean, you're less skeptical about it than in preview I mean, we've been talking about it together for a long time now, and I think you've had a skepticism about crypt crypto technology. I have a little bit of skepticism  

[00:00:59] Unknown:

because I'm,   there are, I think, valid concerns around it. Some have to do with financial stability,   consumer   investor protection,   use for illicit transactions,   and other things. On the other hand, there are benefits   from crypto, and we recognize that innovation   in the payment system   can be a healthy thing. We would like to,   come out eventually with recommendations   that,   will create a regulatory   environment in which healthy innovation can get. And finally,  

[00:02:09] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy Odell here for Citadel dispatch 60.   If you're listening to this after the fact on the podcast feeds,   that was   treasury secretary Yellen talking about a Bitcoin circular economy on CNBC   this week.   Citadel Dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.   I appreciate all the freaks who continue to support the show. Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.   Could not happen without your support,   keeping   dispatch purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion and Freedom Tech.  

The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2.0.   My two favorite podcasting 2.0 apps are Breeze and Fountain Podcasts.   They work like a regular podcasting app,   but you load them up with sats. You choose how many sats per minute   dispatch is worth to you, and those sats stream directly to my note as you're listening.   Another way to support the show is through my BTC pay server, which is at sedildispatch.com.   You can support with Onchain or Lightning.   I also have a BIP 47 payment code and associated   samurai pay NIM, which you can pay from   Sparrow Wallet or Samurai Wallet.  

You can also find that on civil dispatch.com.   Hopefully, other wallets will join soon.   Dispatch is broadcast on Twitch, Twitter, and Bitcoin TV.   Bitcoin TV holds all the video archives.   You can also find all the audio archives on your favorite podcast app. It doesn't have to be a podcasting 2.0 app. I've heard some issues   with   fountain podcasts. I've experienced it myself as well. It is definitely still early in development over there. They are listening to your concerns.   Just to be absolutely clear, my single favorite podcasting app   is antennapod.  

Hopefully, they will add podcasting 2.0 at some time. But if you're looking for a good podcasting app that's free and open source software,   highly recommended Tenopod, works really well on Calix and Graphene,   and just general Android phones. I don't think it's available on iPhone. And if you still wanna support the show in that situation, you can use the BTC pay server   or my bit 47 payment code.   With all that said, before we get started, I also have a special announcement   that   a bunch of us are gonna be in Miami, obviously, for Bitcoin 2022.   I will be doing a live Citadel dispatch there   on April 5th,   the anniversary of executive order 6102 when FDR tried steal everyone's gold,   which also happens to be Satoshi's symbolic birthday. It'll be at 2 PM,   same venue as bit devs right before bit devs, so it'll be   that at for an hour. It's still dispatch for an hour, we open up,   and then   there's, like, a 45 minute little happy hour there, and then bit devs happen. So if you're interested in that, that's sidleldispatch.com/miami.  

I'm charging a 100,000 sats for that,   includes entry and free drinks.   So once I get that venue covered, I'm just gonna basically come in with, like, cases of beer   and ranch water and maybe some regular water so people stay hydrated.   And maybe there'll be a little bit left over that will go towards supporting the show, but I'm trying to keep it obviously as as low cost as possible. To you Fiat Maxi's out there,   when I listed it at a 100,000 sats, that was about $42. Now it's about $48.   So with all that said, we have a really great show today. It's focused on building a Bitcoin circular economy.   A lot of you guys have probably heard me talk about this in the past.  

A key aspect of our threat model when we talk about Bitcoin and privacy   is this whole idea of KYC onramps, these regulated onramps that are keeping   extensive lists of Bitcoiners in our transaction history.   Privacy tools help.   Learning how to   obtain Bitcoin without   those burdensome KYC regulations that often put Bitcoiners at risk help.   But long term, what really will help is a proper Bitcoin circular economy where people aren't buying Bitcoin. They are earning Bitcoin.   They're not selling Bitcoin, they're spending Bitcoin. It distributes,   us away from these central points of failure.  

So with that topic in mind, we have a great group of panelists that are been very focused on build making this vision a reality sooner rather than later. I personally think that,   the circular economy is somewhat inevitable, but the question is, how long does it take us to get there? And and these   these great dudes have been trying to make that reality   way quicker than it otherwise would be. So   first off, we have Brian Harrington here. Brian, how's it going?  

[00:07:04] Unknown:

Hey, guys. Thankful thankful to be here talking about this. Number go up and payments go round   are both both so important, and that's how we win. Let's fucking go. Brian is focused on  

[00:07:16] Unknown:

building,   you know, helping grow the Bitcoin circular economy in Southern California.   We have Santos here,   from Chamber of Satoshi   focused on building the Bitcoin circular economy in Arizona. How's it going, Santos?  

[00:07:31] Unknown:

It's going great. Very bullish.   I think there's more ways to earn Sats   than ever.  

[00:07:38] Unknown:

Let's fucking go.   And we have Michael   from Ocea app, which is a project that is specifically designed to to build out the Bitcoin circular economy. How's it going, Michael?  

[00:07:50] Unknown:

Hey. It's going great, man. Thanks,   thanks for having me. Yeah.   I I can't wait to talk about why bcommerce   is so much better than any other form of commerce out there. You just call it bcommerce?   Bcommerce.  

[00:08:04] Unknown:

For sure, man. The evolution of ecommerce? Absolutely.  

[00:08:07] Unknown:

Absolutely. Make no mistake.  

[00:08:11] Unknown:

Well, I love it because, for for whatever reason, this is the first time I've heard the term b commerce, but, I dig it. Do you have the website?  

[00:08:19] Unknown:

It's been taken by some bank,   but don't worry. Don't worry. We'll be able to buy it off from there. You're lucky I even asked. I was just gonna just  

[00:08:26] Unknown:

throw a question at you and then just try and go to Namecheap and buy it. So  

[00:08:31] Unknown:

Yeah. It's definitely b commerce. Everybody can use that. That's that's how we're gonna position ourselves to take over the world of ecommerce.  

[00:08:39] Unknown:

So, I mean, let's get started here. When you look at let's start with Michael since,   I don't know. Let's just start with Michael. Michael, when you look at, you know, trying to grow the pie and get more businesses to start accepting Bitcoin, you know, how do you frame it? How do you think about it?   You know, what what is, you know, what is your framing here?  

[00:09:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I spent a lot of time, trying to figure that out. And what I learned over time is if we, like, just run-in there and we're like, hey. You should accept Bitcoin because, like, central banks and inflation and all of these other things, you know, privacy concerns, tyrannical regimes,   most businesses do not care.   They they don't. Right. Like, they have enough to worry about their,   you know, labor costs are going up, if they could even find labor,   their rents going up. They have a ton of problems,   and how I frame it is, hey, like, how about we bring you   more customers? How about you offer your customers Bitcoin rewards to actually incentivize people to spend   Bitcoin,   while also getting people to earn Bitcoin   and getting businesses to   potentially hold the Bitcoin,   utilize   utilizing the network and the asset if they want, or, they can utilize the network without actually holding on to the asset. It's their it's their choice.  



[00:09:57] Unknown:

Do you see do most merchants   so when you say they can utilize   the network without holding the asset, you mean just immediately convert to USD?  

[00:10:08] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. In this case, this would be as kind of a stepping stone for them, but most businesses are actually choosing to just hold the Bitcoin.   But just having, I guess, you could say, like, that backboard as they're just dipping their toes into Bitcoin is really helpful.   Just giving them that option to say, hey. Like, I know you have a business to run.   Maybe you're you'd be interested in converting a certain portion of this to dollars.   Again, you know, that's not what I recommend, but the reality is these businesses,   have bills to pay and they have businesses to run. So they're still often having to pay these fiat based bills. So,   it does help to have that option for them. And specifically with Oshi  

[00:10:45] Unknown:

on the merchant side   so, I mean, why don't you just go into real quick, like, what is Oshi?  

[00:10:53] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's just a really easy way from the from the, you know, business side to introduce them to Bitcoin.   We can get them set up with a Bitcoin payment provider of their choice, whether that's, you know, OpenNode or Ibex or even their own b t z pay server,   on the slim chance that that these, you know, businesses   have one of those.   We can get them connected to our platform,   via just invoice API keys, and,   they're effectively able to promote their products and services by offering Bitcoin rewards. So if you wanna   purchase your, you know, sell a coffee, you can say, dude, yeah, we're gonna do, like, 5% back in Bitcoin   rewards   if you purchase this coffee, you know, using,   say, either your own Bitcoin lightning wallet or using strike or what whatever the customer wants to use. Right?  

We're definitely not here to to make perfect be the enemy of good.  

[00:11:49] Unknown:

But from this what we're here for.   Sorry to continue.  

[00:11:53] Unknown:

Yeah. So so the the consumer   is is then incentivized to actually want to participate in the Bitcoin economy because there is an incentive,   because the novelty of payments,   you know, you know, sending and receiving Bitcoin payments wears off over time, and then it's just effectively sending money regardless of how profound,   you know, the Bitcoin network is.   And   the   the,   yeah, just that excitement wears off and then the   ideology of Bitcoiners, you know, all over the world,   that will only get us so far in terms of,   you know,   get making the Bitcoin circular economy go around. So So when I when I open the Oshi app,  

[00:12:39] Unknown:

there's a map.   Right? I guess it it pulls my location. There's a map, and then I can   see which   where there's Oshi merchants and how what they offer   Sats back I get. Right?   Exactly. Yeah. Now do you   we've in general, on the show, we don't like location permissions. Or do you have any intention of monetizing   our data or storing our data or location data?  

[00:13:06] Unknown:

No. We have no intention of doing that.   Okay. By all means, you can please turn that off if if you don't want it. It's only, you know, whenever we see a lot of people using the app because in general,   like I said, the   ideological,   you know, users and the people that just wanna spend Bitcoin as a novelty,   that will that will kind of run dry. You have to provide a really awesome experience for users. And oftentimes, whenever they open up the app for the first time,   they're, like, trying to find businesses near them.   And,   if if they can't see that little blue dot on their map that shows where they are. The blue dot. Yeah. People freak out. They're like, where am I? Where are these businesses?  

Like, so   we just added that as a as an opt in kind of thing. Fair enough.  

[00:13:51] Unknown:

Do you see any merchants,   are any of your merchants Bitcoin only?  

[00:13:57] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   there actually are quite a few of them. I would say most of them are just holding the Bitcoin.  

[00:14:04] Unknown:

Oh, no. That's not what I mean. Like, are there any that don't accept   credit card, that only accept Bitcoin?  

[00:14:10] Unknown:

No. No. None of the merchants.   Well, okay. In El Salvador, yes. We do have some merchants in El Salvador. You have Oshi merchants in El Salvador? We have some Oshi merchants in El Salvador. Yeah. We were kinda testing it out down there. Your fucking hustler.   You you could you can buy, you know, fresh coconut water for, for a dollar 25 on Oshi. And this guy who's never accepted a digital payment before in his life, he's always operated on cash. He's been, you know, unable to participate in any sort of digital economy   his entire life  

[00:14:42] Unknown:

now can give you, like, 5% cents back on a coconut water to anyone in the world over lightning, and then That's awesome. Straight to his Bitcoin Beach wallet. I mean, the reason I bring it up is because you say, like, the novelty wears off, you know, from, like, the ideologues just trying to, like, spread Bitcoin.   To me, like, the incentives to to spend Bitcoin   are, I guess, with the addition of Ocea app now is threefold.   It's   because I'm looking for a more private spending option. You know? If I can spend in cash, then, obviously, cash is the most private. But if it's between credit card or Bitcoin, you can get a privacy gain from spending with Bitcoin.   The second reason, which is probably one of the more common reasons, is the merchant just only accepts Bitcoin.  

So for instance, you know, if you wanna go to the Citadel dispatch live event in Miami,   I do not accept fiat. So you have to either decide to send me SADs or not come.   Same with, you know, the Nodl, for instance. If you wanna buy a Nodl node, you can't pay with credit card. You have to pay with Bitcoin.   And then I guess the third reason is Sats back. I mean, everyone loves a good discount. Some of your discounts are very in very intense, whether I've seen, like, 40%, 50% discounts.   I guess they're not discounts. They're stats back. Technically, it's   a important nuance. But Right. I guess those would be the 3 main reasons.  

So that's why I asked that question.   Yeah. And, also, what I was thinking is, you know, I don't know if you guys remember, but in 2013   I mean, I don't know if you guys were around in, like, 2013 or 20 14, 2015. Before the b cash hard fork happened, a lot of the b cashers were very pro Bitcoin circular economy.   And but what happened was it was all onboarding towards, like, BitPay and stuff where people were just   where the merchants were auto selling for Fiat. And I I understand that there's a there's a point there in that, you know, businesses have Fiat expenses,   but   there's   well, you know, one of the things I like about how Ibex and OpenNode work   as opposed to BitPay is that you can have, like like, on OpenNode, they have, like, a slider. Like, you decide, you know, I wanna keep 70% of Bitcoin, 30% in fiat or something because I have my expenses.  

But I just felt like it wasn't it wasn't like the merchants were actually being convinced of, like, the benefits of of Bitcoin. They were just being convinced that, like, bit Bitpay could onboard them really easily,   and they just it wasn't sticky or anything. And it was just, like, I was just, you know, why do I wanna pay, like, my AT and T bill with Bitcoin and just have them auto dump it for Fiat through, like, a regulated party that hates Bitcoin?   Can I jump off that? Yeah. So, Brian, just real quick. Like, I forgot to tell you guys ahead of time. Like, don't consider me the host. All you guys Yeah. Should just jump in and out. Feel free to go. Yeah. Alright. Let me jump off that and hit just a few high things that, like, I wanna say.  

[00:17:38] Unknown:

The   the   OG Bitcoiners   were great at talking about Bitcoin.   They were not great at talking about personal finance. Okay. Why does this matter for Circular Economy? And the why does this matter for Circular Economy? Because   the then you're right. And when the b cash fork happened,   we, I think, are just now only now realizing   the the, like, social layer impact of that as well because we lost a lot of that circular economy and momentum. So super, like, in   in my whole theme of 2022, I've been trying to just, like, leave all baggage behind and just start from where we are. Because the other thing was Circular Economy that, like, dude, the lockdowns radicalized me on Circular Economy. Like, I don't I don't appreciate,   like, the way that we were, like, treated   by, like, people in power. And so it really needs to be like a Bitcoin is happening right now in person and needs to, like, start creating,   like and it is creating, like, value and freedom for people right now in person. But that's what kind of got me down this path of, like, I don't love saying, like, we're so early anymore because saying we're so early, I feel like just comes across as, like, very, like, apathetic.  

Like and because we do humans do have the ability to, like, impact the world. And so there's all that combined with, yes, the be cash hard fork.   We lost some of that social momentum of those people that wanted to see Bitcoin replace fiat,   like, in transactions. Okay. And then I can't fully, like, put it on the OGs of not being good at personal finance because what has happened since then? What has happened since then is that the apps have come such a long way. Like,   the the apps have come so far to where if Stripe and Cash App are gonna continue to pay   athletes   to use the word paycheck and Bitcoin in the same sentence, and this whole pay me in Bitcoin thing is happening.  

Then when normies normies already   will ask you when you talk about Bitcoin. Hey. Bitcoin's like, it's a big deal. It's taking over. Oh, yeah. Well, how can I spend it at Walmart? That normie is not trying to, like, needle you and be like, oh, it's never gonna work. Can't use it. They're not trying to say that. They're not asking for a lecture in Austrian economics. They're asking you to tell them how to do business outside of the dollar. Like, I think what's wild is that normies and, like,   hardcore, like, Bitcoiners that wanna watch, like, Bitcoin or place fiat are actually more on the same page than we give them credit for. So, like, I don't think, like yeah. I just I think by normies being ready to, like, spend Bitcoin, they don't need, like, a lecture. They just need to you just need to tell them, like, when and where they could do it. And then just closing kind of a little bit again on this personal finance thing, it's the tools are now here for you to take 100% of your paycheck in Bitcoin, and the math is now here.   The holding peer like, the the inflation   per day on the dollar is is, like, closing the reasons for holding dollars at all, even for a week. And so what's wild and combined with number go up, obviously.  

But so what's wild is that,   like, we think we think   that by using dollars as our checking account and using Bitcoin as our savings account, we're savings on taxes, and we're also, like, causing number go up because we're not selling back for fiat. I don't I don't think either of those things are true anymore. I think, actually, in a weird way, by taking 100% of your paycheck in Bitcoin and then buying the foreign currency dollars when and if you need it, you're actually,   like, you're then net sitting on more stats for more days per year, which is literally making your family wealthier.   And none of that was there back in, like, any so the tools weren't there. The inflation wasn't there. Like, that's why this whole thing is, like, coming full circle.  

Because the tools are now here for you to 100%   hold Bitcoin as your base money. The financial incentive is here to do it as your base money.   And then   then we can talk about, yes, all the game theory of the merchants getting to the point where it's like, hey,   yeah. Like, due to COVID and due to the lockdowns and due to rising inflation, like, we accept Bitcoin now. Like, please pay with this or pay a higher price to use fiat. Like, so, but it because people love to say, people love to say it doesn't make economic sense to spend your Bitcoin, so just huddle your Bitcoin. Okay. But then what if there's actually the economic incentive to get paid a 100% Bitcoin   and still eat the cap gains,   because   number go up is actually, like, going up enough to even cover the cap gains and your families ending wealthier.  



[00:22:09] Unknown:

You wanna talk about the cap gains spending issue?  

[00:22:13] Unknown:

Sure. Yeah.  

[00:22:16] Unknown:

Why why don't you explain it to me? About it?  

[00:22:18] Unknown:

So yeah. I mean, so Bitcoin is property. Like, so they're gonna they're asking you to pay, like, capital gains taxes when you swap it back for dollars. What I foresee happening is these Or when you spend it.   Yeah. Or when you spend it. And I think what I think is gonna happen is   so with Cash App wants to be your bank. NYDIG is partnering with Credit Unions. Strike wants to be your bank. Fold wants to be your bank. And there's this thing where it's like, what do we even use banks for? Wells Fargo, like,   Chase, Bank of America,   the really only thing we actually use them for is they're an ACH portal. We we all Bitcoiners need to learn about the ACH network.  

Like, in in because   the ACH network is the only thing we use banks for. But now all these Bitcoin apps are now adding in like ACH portals to where you can receive your paycheck directly in Bitcoin. And so they also are going to all add, I feel like they're all going to add ACH out. So you're gonna be able to hold your Bitcoin up until the very last day that your mortgage is due and then ACH out into,   your mortgage payment. And then that Bitcoin checking account will spit out   a regular, like, report that then you plug into TurboTax. And so, yes, your   Bitcoin and right now I'm, like, diving into the personal finance element of it. What I'm trying I understand that a lot of this will run counter to, like, some other,   like, ways of seeing Bitcoin. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that from a personal finance   on paper Bitcoin checking account perspective,   you can beat the capital gains taxes and still end the year wealthier because I believe that's then a flywheel for more and more businesses jumping onto this, which then provides cover for those that are using Bitcoin in different ways to still shop at those same merchants. So it's still like,   I, I have this whole thing in general that I actually believe that like suits and anarchists are, like, more on the same team than they give themselves credit for. So just understand that with a lot of what I'm saying. But so I believe the math is there for Bitcoin checking accounts.  



[00:24:17] Unknown:

What's that? Sorry. I said fuck the suits. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.  

[00:24:24] Unknown:

I believe the map is there I believe the map is there for you to use a Bitcoin checking account,   and hold a 100% of your money in Bitcoin   and become comfortable with either buying the foreign currency dollars with it or buying something directly with it. And I no longer believe that, like, buying the foreign currency dollars,   causes the number to go down. I used to believe that, but I don't believe that anymore. My favorite part about, like, the whole argument about holding, you know, a 100%  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

Bitcoin   is, like, the argument on Twitter was between people who hold, like, 98% Bitcoin and a 100% Bitcoin, and they just argued over the 2%, like, vehemently.  

[00:24:59] Unknown:

Everyone's just not sure, though. I'm not I'm not sure, though. Like, though there's definitely a mental   like, I think I think,   like, that last part of, like, paying your mortgage with it, I definitely think, like, changes brain cells. I think it changes brain cells.  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

Fair enough. Fair enough. Santos, what are your what are your thoughts here? I mean, you've been onboarding merchants in in Arizona.   Well, you know, what what have they said that you agree with? You know, how do you how do you think about it? And what do you disagree with?  

[00:25:34] Unknown:

How how I think about it is, like, comparing it as a technology to the traditional banking system. I came from a background of banks.   I worked at Bank of America in 2015 and then quit my job. I had discovered Bitcoin, and, you know, I didn't wanna work in that industry anymore.   So I taught myself.   So I did preferred sales prior to leaving, and it was mainly, like, tailoring the bank's benefits.   So when you look at lightning,   as a as a payment layer, it's superior nearly in every respect because,   one, banks can shut off your account at any given time to conduct a financial review.   I I worked in a risk department before that did that, and,   you don't have to worry about that if you're essentially, like, managing your own funds.  

So I think about it from that perspective. Like, you you don't have to worry about your accounts payable nearly as much. And then you think about it from the payment processing side.   You know, Stripe charges 3% plus 30¢.   Square Terminal charges 3% plus 10¢.   Even using, like, a lightning service provider, you can lower your cost to 1%,   which is massive,   especially if you're doing anywhere between $5.10   transactions.   That lowers it from roughly 9%, 10%.   So then you also don't carry the risk   of, like, fraud   or billing disputes, which often as a merchant, even if someone's submitting a a legitimate report, those funds are taken out of your account anywhere between 30 60 days. It's just debited   while the bank continues to to review that. So merchants understand this. They have to deal with this on a frequent basis. And if you can explain to them, well, you're not only gonna reduce your operating costs   and keep more of the money for the value that you're producing,   you're also,   going to lower your risk dramatically.  

So that's kind of the way that,   I think about,   payments,   using Bitcoin.  

[00:27:32] Unknown:

Do you notice that, like I mean, specifically, what what you were comparing it to seems to be credit cards.   I mean, like, I know in, like, the Austin area, there's a surprisingly amount of of no cash businesses. Do you guys see that,   like, most of the time you're really Bitcoin's competing against credit cards and not cash, and cash has kinda just disappeared from the equation for the most part?  

[00:27:55] Unknown:

Yeah. I think people,   particularly like paying with credit cards because of the benefits associated with them, such as rewards, you know, fraud protection, those sort of things.   And, I think with cash,   like, it's a bit outside of the circular   economy. I think of the circular economy as, like, earn and spend,   completely in SaaS.   And outside of it, you have Fiat to Bitcoin kind of conversions, which I think, like, what we're kinda experimenting with,   one of our partners at the chambers of Potosi and the Arizona Bitcoin network.   They they basically provide a SECO terminals,   to merchants and meet up members with very low risk. So then   people that have never,   ex you you know, used Bitcoin,   never really learned much about it, can now get onboarded,   on chain or lightning with essentially,   there's no KYC that's required. It's just a cash exchange. So I see that that then at that point, they can use cash to purchase Saks, which they can use, like, l n basically, it's an LNUR withdrawal and a receipt. They can scan and load into whatever their their choice of lightning wallet can be or have it sent to, like, an on chain address and then enter,   the the circular Bitcoin economy. So that that's how, like, I'm imagining it and how we're setting up the Satoshi day, which is, an event celebrate,   celebrating,   a business beginning to accept Bitcoin.  

So I I I don't really see it competing   as much with cash because then you can even,   have your operating costs lower. But I think the problem with cash is the friction,   that it has. So with lightning, the payment flow is also better. One of the worst experiences you can have and may a big complaint by consumers   is, like, point of sale decline. With lightning, you you don't have to worry about that, especially, if you're using,   a lightning service provider or you have a self hosted solution where you know how to do to do the channel management.  

[00:29:57] Unknown:

So that that's kinda how I see it. Yeah. And then and I would just say, like,   you know, for for 1000 of years, like, let's let's just say   the past few decades has been an anomaly.   Okay? Like, in terms of the the Internet spread it up, everything,   is now digital,   Payments are now digital. To participate in ecommerce, you have to have a debit or credit card, generally speaking.   For 1000 of years, that was not the case. Right? Commerce occurred between the buyer and seller without any financial intermediaries, without any payment processors, for 0% processing fees.   Settlement was final. It was instant. There were no chargebacks,   right, unless you wanted to, like, beat the dude up after you handed him your money or whatever. So, like which is inherently risky. Today, people can just call up the bank for whatever reason they want, and they can charge it back.  

So my point here is that   what   Bitcoin, you know, and and Lightning specifically   enables,   at the very least, like, at the protocol level is for, you know, near instant, near free settlement. Now currently, we're using these different,   third parties that are providing a valuable service. Right? Like, let's say, OpenNode or Ibex,   you know, or or, like, you use Voltage maybe and you you spin up your own node there. Like,   they are providing a very valuable service to help you process these payments. But for all intents and purposes, like, as we all know, Bitcoin is digital peer to peer cash,   and we are reinstating that, like, right before our very eyes. And this is where I like to talk about this whole, like, b commerce, ecommerce thing.  

Like, most of the world cannot participate in any form of ecommerce, and even in the developed world,   they barely participate.   Like, the small businesses are getting fucked. Like, they have access to participate.   They can use a bunch of different third party services to participate. Like, let's say, small restaurants, coffee shops, they could use   DoorDash or Grubhub or all these things that are charging them anywhere from, like, 10 to 30%, let's say, just to participate in ecommerce because   people aren't really going to their website. Right? They're not really going or reading their email blasts as, like, this   single small business. Right?  

Anyway, with that being said, like, roughly,   15% of all retail commerce   is done online in the United States. That's it.   15%   of online   of retail commerce is done online. 85%   does not do not participate,   right,   in ecommerce   or not know, obviously, 85% of retail sales Or 85% of the store. There's a brick and mortar.   Let's just say, I would I mean, basically, with the swipe of a card or handing somebody cash, 85%.   And this is, like, in the most, you know, technologically  

[00:32:43] Unknown:

advanced country in the history of the world, arguably. Right? Right. I would think it was I I would think that there would be more ecommerce. I didn't realize that. Yeah. And then Especially after all the COVID policies and stuff just destroyed small businesses.  

[00:32:55] Unknown:

Exactly. So what happened during that was, you know, in in 2020 I I don't know where it's sitting at now, but in 2020,   ecommerce jumped up 30%,   and businesses were forced to effectively, you know, pay these higher fees to participate in ecommerce because it's inherently more expensive as well to accept debit or credit cards online than it is to swipe the card in store. And this is where ecommerce comes in because for the first time   ever, it's actually cheaper to accept an online payment   online than it is in store.   The settlement is near instant. It's near free depending on how you choose to go about accepting that Bitcoin payment.  

And in my opinion, this is going to be like this is b commerce. Like, this is going to revolutionize   how we see ecommerce. There are people in countries that have never had access to debit and credit cards at all are now able   to accept online payments.   Like, it is going to be insane. And it's it's basically the reinstatement of a cash like, you know, money   in the digital world, and that's, like, fucking exciting.  

[00:33:58] Unknown:

Yeah. That is that that's a great way to put it.   100%   agree. One thing that,   one of the merchants that we partnered with, Beal Beans, one thing that really resonated with them is they have all kinds of relationships with with farmers all over the world, like Brazil, Ethiopia.   And one thing that excited them is   they are now able to form a direct relationship. Like, their model is entirely, like, building customer relationships, farmer relationships,   and that's how they differentiate themselves.   So now they can use digital cash to send, you know, across borders   directly,   to their farmers. And now there's more ways than ever,   to to be able to use   that Bitcoin, and there's only gonna it's only gonna continue to grow. So now, like, they can own their relationships,   and they can transact with whomever they want and maximize   the value that they create. It becomes much more cooperative.  



[00:34:54] Unknown:

So, I mean, Santos, that's a really interesting point. So, I mean, earlier on, Michael was talking about how this there's   this there's this issue in this bootstrap phase, right, where,   these merchants have fiat bills to pay,   but they're receiving Bitcoin.   Ultimately,   the ideal situation is what you just described where they're actually able to pay their downstream suppliers   Bitcoin for the supplies they need   the services they need. Is   this   and and we kind of saw this in El Salvador because just the government mandated it, so all those businesses don't necessarily need to convert into fiat because all the other businesses have to accept Bitcoin, so they're able to pay their suppliers inherently.   Was this something that you specifically   set up with this merchant? Like, did you put them in contact with their suppliers, or was that just coincidental? Is that something, like, you think about connecting   maybe 2 different   businesses   that can   have basically have a circular economy with together?  

Is that a thing you consider, or is that just kinda happened?  

[00:36:01] Unknown:

Yeah. That's something that we consider.   That's something that Blake and I, the owner of Beal Beans, it's like a family owned, coffee roastery and and pour overs, and that's something that we've talked about,   extensively.   And that's something that really resonated with him is the freedom aspect of it and owning the relationship.   It's pretty horrible to, to essentially go through, like, a wire transfer   where the end you know, the farmer is losing out significantly on the value that they created.   So it's really exciting to them to be able to then pay them directly.   And we've gone over, you know, many different use cases in terms of, like, spending   the SATs as well.  

You know, there there's more and more options that are being developed in terms of products. More regions are being covered.   More open source tools that you can use,   to be able to enable your customers to purchase from you.   So I think that's kind of the the way that we've,   discussed it and thought about it.  

[00:37:04] Unknown:

I just want that's fantastic. I mean, I just wanna do a quick shout out to Anarcheo Crypto.   I invited him on the show, but he didn't wanna dox his voice, so he's participating in our matrix chat,   live while the show is going on. So I just wanted to say I appreciate him and   glad to see him in the live chat.   Brian,  

[00:37:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Go ahead. I appreciate what he said too and was gonna reply to the comment. Yeah. If you want me to. Hit us. What what was the comment? Yeah. So Anarko Crypto makes a great point. He's and and there, as they're describing Bitcoin Circular Economies, they're saying, rent for cash slash Bitcoin without KYC. Build Circular Economies outside of the state. No government ID required for jobs, apartments, healthcare, etcetera. Cash in hand, gray markets already offer this. Bitcoin doesn't only fight the state's monopoly on money, but also it's monopoly on identity. Bitcoin uses synonymous public private key pairs for authentication instead of a state signed identity as with banking.   So you have any comments first or I was gonna let you okay. So to go off of that,   I agree with those strategies.  

I think those strategies will only work for a certain, like, certain sec like, segment of people. Right? And I think this is the classic case of the way I liked the way when Odell was the way that b cashers were trying to talk about circular economy back in the day or just Bitcoiners in general were trying to talk about circular economy back in the day versus kind of what I'm trying to see in 2022 is kind of this blended model of, like,   there's going to be Bitcoin checking accounts. And I know, like, coming on to Citadel Dispatch and, like, being the Bitcoin bank account guy is, like, not a great like, that doesn't make me, like, the, like, awesome guest of the day. Like but what I wanna say is, like, people running having Bitcoin bank accounts and, like,   the,   like, financial incentives at the personal finance level to hold the Bitcoin bank accounts and still have them be able to, like,   print off a statement from that and get a mortgage, like, with that bank statement,   is those people   are still shopping at the same places that Santos is onboarding and that Michael is onboarding. And so I also had this discussion on Twitter, like, back in the day when Orange County Bitcoin Network got our 1st taco shop on it and our 1st,   burger place on it. Some people were saying that, like,   oh, you know, if they're using, like, open node, like, I can't use my, like, non KYC wallet to, like, shop at OpenNode. And I was like, dude, I fully disagree with that. Or there was a reverse thing where some guys were talking about if a 3 d printed gun site is, like, running BTC pay server, they were trying to say that, like, oh, strike app isn't good   because strike has KYC. And if they pay the BTC pay server, that's bad then for the, like, gun shop owner. And I was like, again, I fully disagree with that. Like,   Bitcoin fixes that.  

Bitcoin fixes that. It allows   like, the very fact that someone with a Bitcoin bank account through   whatever app   and someone who's fully, like, non KYC running their wallet and are their own bank from their phone can buy coffee together at the same shop that chooses to either run OpenNode or run b two c pay server,   like, that's beautiful.   Like, that's literally beautiful, and that's Bitcoin is winning. That's commerce   happening outside of the dollar. Like, that is then the dollar is going to lose traction,   and more and more entrepreneurs are then going to be able to say, hey. Sorry. Dollars are no longer accepted here because,   you know, please step out of line and go use the Bitcoin ATM. It's like you're still not up to speed. And so that's that's just the reason why I'm, like, kind of bringing the personal finance today is   that's that's the way I see it sending traffic   to all these businesses we're onboarding.  



[00:40:48] Unknown:

Yeah. That's a really excellent point. It's like there's there are different options for different degrees   of, like, understanding and technical capability or relationships.   It's   there can be, like, different phases or levels to it if you kinda want to gamify it. You can start off with,   you know,   a custody wallet to some extent and then move on as you learn and go deeper down the rabbit hole and understand   the different terminology, the technical aspects, the systems engineering,   and move on to your own. And there are a lot of companies that are even making it easier and more frictionless   to begin and explore that and to be able to start hosting or operating your own node and then to branch out to then even doing, like, a completely self hosted solution depending upon, like, the size and scale of your business and where you're conducting transactions.  

Obviously, if you're, like, an ecommerce business, you're gonna have significantly   more traffic, and you'll need more resiliency in your notes.   So maybe that, you know, the voltage voltage solution can be, like, fault tolerance.   If your own cell phone solution fails, then you could forward your payment to,   you know,   another,   note posted in the cloud. Or maybe if you're like a business that is brick and mortar or, like, literally person to person, in person,   then, self hosted solution will completely cover all of your transacting needs, and you won't need to have, like, the same level of infrastructure   requirements.  

So it's, like, amazing to Brian's point that these 2 different individuals   all speak the same language, which is bitcoin. It doesn't, like if you look at, like, Zelle and Cash App, they cannot talk. They're not speaking the same language, even though they're still transacting in the dollar. It's essentially, like, not possible for them. But using lightning,   and lightning address, it even makes it, like, even easier to do so,   and speak the same language.  

[00:42:40] Unknown:

The reason why circular economies matter is, like, the   the gray market circular economies that already exist today on cash are not large enough to make a dent into, like, the establishment and clown world. Like, what   what Bitcoin commerce   available to everyone does and the mindset of Bitcoin commerce available to everyone does is it shifts everyone away for you from using dollars, and it creates an overlapping   circle   with the gray markets that are already there. And so, like, that's why I think, like, both   anyone working on   commerce   in Bitcoin instead of dollars, I think is like   that I I just think it's like the highest leverage piece of freedom, like, freedom   things that you could do because you're physically changing brain cells and getting people to use a currency that they didn't grow up on.  



[00:43:32] Unknown:

Yeah. And, like, I just wanna say, like well, first of all,   tip of the hat to an r q crypto. He probably has, like, one of the best,   bitcoin circular economies articles I've read to date, so definitely check that out.   But I mean, like, Bitcoin changes people. Like, whenever I first got started on Bitcoin, like, I was doing everything wrong. I didn't know what the hell was going on. I I had, like, very little regard for privacy.   And over the years, like, learning and understanding Bitcoin, like, it totally changes. Like Brian keeps the same, like, it changes your brain cells. Like, you're you're changing people's perspectives on things and letting people get into it, like, whatever way they're gonna get into it, but then, like, leveling up over time, like, becoming more self sovereign as an individual, like a consumer, as a business, and, like,   leveraging the the the inherent,   like, incentives of bitcoin, like, it's gonna be cheaper to do all of these things on your own if you're just willing   to to, like,   level up. Right? You're willing to learn about how to self host and about how to attain, like, KYC free coin and so on. Like and and, like, that's   that's where it gets into the thing. Like, let's not let perfect be the enemy of good,   obviously.  

It's like, man, people are gonna start flooding into this.   And,   like, I don't know, like, I'm just so bullish on how Bitcoin   affects people. Like, the statists will inevitably no longer be statists. Like, the people that don't give a shit about privacy inevitably will. There will always there will always be statists, but, it's just gonna be dwindling   over time. Right?  

[00:45:07] Unknown:

Won't be using state money, but they'll still be status.   I  

[00:45:11] Unknown:

Yeah. There are people on Bitcoin right now that are statists, so I I don't know.  

[00:45:15] Unknown:

I I mean, we definitely have I Bitcoin's for enemies. Bitcoin is for everyone. So there's gonna be people of all walks of life. And, I mean, if if if Bitcoin can't succeed in that situation, then it was doomed to fail anyway.   But I expect it to succeed in that situation. I mean, there's a lot of good points made all around. I just wanna pull back a tiny bit   on Brian's KYC   comment.   So   you   I I I agree with the premise   that if a merchant is   accepting via OpenNode   or IBEX,   and I have a no KYC stack,   I can obviously continue I can use that infrastructure just as if the merchant was using BTC pay server.   Now there's there's benefits and and negatives to the merchant.  

Obviously, the major negative to the merchant is is privacy,   but also custodial risk. They can get their their account canceled just like they can get account their account could get canceled on   their account could get canceled on, like, a PayPal or a Stripe or   Square   terminals or Toast terminals, whatever terminal the business uses, that is for Fiat.   But let's go to the consumer side. Now on the consumer side,   you mentioned   specifically   so with Lightning, what's nice about Lightning, first of all,   to the freaks that haven't   listened to the full sale of dispatch archives, I had a great com   great, conversation,   with Tony about   Lightning privacy. I think it was episode 21,   if you wanna go check out the nuances of Lightning privacy. But the the the on the   big scale of Lightning privacy,   the sender has a lot   better privacy guarantees than the receiver.  

The so   a lot of those pain points that, like, if you pay an open node and you potentially are are doxing yourself to a KYC merchant,   go out the window because if you pay with lightning,   the sender gets better privacy,   except for one key thing, which is the memo   and the node pub key.   So you specifically,   Brian, mentioned, like, supporting the 3 d gun community with strike.   Mhmm.   If that memo in your lightning memo says,   you know, supporting the 3 d gun community or   buying this Right. 3 d gun part or something.   Strike, a regulated service, knows that. They also know the pub key you're paying.  

So,   you know, Bitcoin can fix that,   but the tools as they're currently set up, there's gonna be some   issues there.   People get their accounts closed. They're gonna end up on on unless they didn't think they were gonna be on, stuff like that.  

[00:48:15] Unknown:

The person sending will. Right? But the receiver is the receiver able to block a payment from Striker or from Cash App and say we don't want the payment? No.   Because, like, I donated, like, I donated to the,   I sent money to the Canadian truckers through Cash App.  

[00:48:31] Unknown:

Right. The guy knows that. And if if the if the government wanted to,  

[00:48:37] Unknown:

if the government For sure. Put every American on a list that sent that money, you'd be on that list. Yes. Look. And that's so to me, that's what's so beautiful about it is that the the reliance is on,   like, the   the onus is on the sender. And so I think, like, by businesses,   if a bunch of businesses   start running open node,   as as they will. Right? Like, it's opening   the amount of places   that no k y c people can shop. That's why I see it as, like, a benefit.  

[00:49:10] Unknown:

Right.   Right. I agree on that point.   No. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, and that's it's extremely powerful because it's an open monitoring network.  

[00:49:21] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's what makes the pitch like, what's so amazing is the pitch   do pitching businesses is is so much easier than it, like, than it used to be already.  

[00:49:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I have   I have businesses.   I I didn't know if you were pausing there, Brian. Or No. Go. Go. Go. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I have businesses where I walk in,   and I'm like, hey, do you wanna, like, offer Bitcoin rewards to your customers? And some of them, like,   granted, this doesn't happen often. It happens often enough to where they're like,   hey, like, I've actually been meaning or wanting to get involved with Bitcoin, and I just didn't know how. Like, nobody's   talked with me about it yet. Like, I didn't know where to get started.  

[00:50:06] Unknown:

And, like, am I gonna get them started on a BTC pay server? No. Like, they they don't know how this works at all. Am I gonna get them started with, like, Ibex or OpenNode? Yeah. And and as they go through this journey, like, they're gonna level up and, like so, yeah, it's getting so much easier. Yeah, dude. Okay. And I thought of what I wanna say because you're it's getting so much easier on your side. And then the reason why I'm coming in, like, so hot talking about the personal finance and that stuff today is because what's so annoying to me is back when we did our first taco shop, just getting hit with the, like, man, like, what about cap gains? Ma, like, don't we have to huddle? Like, what'll like, all this stuff or whatever. And what's enjoying is when you do get someone excited about it and they are like, hey. I've been looking for a way to get involved. And then there's just no Bitcoiners in that community,   like or in that place that are, like, up to speed on why it makes sense from personal finance perspective. And as Odell goes about, like, the privacy perspective to use Bitcoin as your money.  

Like, this is good. Having a restaurant in your town accepting Bitcoin   is good, and the time is now for this and the time's, like, ready for all this. Let me be clear here on the privacy perspective.  

[00:51:15] Unknown:

You know, if you spend with credit card,   it's I mean, it's a hot like, if you spend with credit card, it's the same as spending poorly on Bitcoin. So Exactly. So if the alternative is credit card, you can only improve yourself.   If the alternative is cash, the story is different because cash is just natively private.  

[00:51:33] Unknown:

Except for cash is hyperinflating,   and that's the whole thing. So, like, this whole thing of, like, cash is good because it's no KYC. Like, no. That's, like, a moot point now. Like No. That's not my point that it's no KYC. My point is that it's  

[00:51:45] Unknown:

it's it's private by default.   It   so if if privacy is your if privacy is your priority,   you can't shoot yourself in the foot by paying with cash. But if you if you use Bitcoin   without understanding the nuances,   that transaction might not be private. But if you're comparing it to credit card,  

[00:52:07] Unknown:

it is it it can be worse than the credit card. Which which is fair. And so that's why, yeah, that's why I think   talking about   the personal finance benefits of spending Bitcoin are just good to get out there more   because all we hear are the personal finance downsides of spending Bitcoin. They're all like, oh, well, you're triggering capital gains taxes. You don't have to pay the state and insulate the state. Like, you're not funding the state through paying capital gains taxes. The state funds itself by printing money. Like, the government spends a 130%   of tax receipts every year. And so that's where, like, I'm I'm moving on from the old talking points of, like, you, you know, like, you can't use Bitcoin as a currency because the laws won't change. Like, no. I'm gonna start right now   using Bitcoin as my base money before the tax laws change because that's how we win.  



[00:52:53] Unknown:

I think either way too, you're still paying like, whether regardless of whether or not you're paying cap gains or you're giving revenue to the bank. Like, you're you're still someone's still making money on that transaction, and I guarantee the bank is making significantly more money off of, credit card payment processing systems.  

[00:53:11] Unknown:

That's a super great point. I've never said it like that. That's really well said.  

[00:53:16] Unknown:

Yeah. So I I think there's that part, and then think about all of the human time that's gonna be saved,   because the transaction flows are significantly better. So, you know, the current transaction flow is pretty much like you see an item, you click buy, it generates a charge, the user scans or clicks the charge, confirms the payment,   then the payment succeeds.   That's like the success flow. And then even with, like, order ahead, with the Ocea app, which is something I really like in terms of their flow, you can, like, take your time, and you can actually, like,   click the charge. It'll open up in your lightning wallet, your whatever preferred lightning wallet it is, and confirm the payment and send. And all you have to do is walk up and show the QR code. So, like, think about how much time is wasted standing in line and slow processing through the credit card merchants even with, like, the, e m EMV chips that they have now. It takes,   a significant amount of time. So if you have, like, the entire world,   like, saving,   like, 20, 30 seconds every single time, if not minutes,   every time, like, how much more productive would we be? So not only are you, like, lowering the operating costs or, like, saving tons of human time that could then be dedicated to something else. And on another point in interesting on the no KYC aspect,   with Azteca terminals, you don't need to provide any sort of identity   until up to, like, $1,000.  

And then I thought about it using open node, and I built in, an application.   You could hook this up to l n bits too. There's it just change the endpoint and change the allocation. But one thing I like about the open node is that you can specify   the allocation like Odell was saying earlier. So essentially, like, you could have a dedicated person in the community that has an open node account. Unfortunately, yeah, they have to, you know, I, verify identity, whatever.   But I I still think that enables them to offer,   another revenue source   because then they can be that person for the community that all they have to do is generate a $5 charge with a percentage,   spread to like 2 or 3%. And that's the cost that they pay for having that account. And on their end, they can generate a $5 charge, somewhat plus, 3% spread.  

The user can scan and pay it with whatever lightning wallet that they want.   The merchant receives instant credit for that balance, and if they're using open though, they get the the the fantastic benefits that they offer, which is that allocation.   So then if you're a merchant, you can just sell or or buy bitcoin from someone And it's an automatic FX conversion.   So so you could even take 100%   fee out if you don't want any exposure and just offer this.   You essentially receive $5   plus the 3% spread   minus the 1% processing   fee. So you make 2%, and and then you can give that person cash and know for a fact that that payment has settled. And you could do this for, you know, 10 5, 10, 25, 100, whatever amount that you want to pay the charge.  

And you could do the same thing if you if you wanted to retain your privacy and you're okay with receiving stats and giving cash. It's almost like,   you know, a real life DCA   without any sort of, like, KYC if you were to hook it up into your own lnbits and even,   set the fee rate potentially   to save even more. So there's, like, all kinds of different approaches you could do to enter the Bitcoin circular economy   and to exit the Bitcoin circular economy. And there's options for everyone. So if you're very privacy conscious, you can do the no k y c route. If you are are not privacy conscious and you're more concerned about convenience, then you can approach it from that route too.  

[00:57:00] Unknown:

So, Santosh, do you are you actually you're you're setting up merchants with Azteco payment terminals too? You're onboarding them onto that as well as   accepting Bitcoin?  

[00:57:12] Unknown:

We,   we offer that. So there's basically, like, kind of a flow,   that that we're using. Essentially,   we have a partner,   Their name is BitRamp, and they're an Azteco vendor. And their their model   is completely focused on minimizing risk in getting these terminals into the merchant's hands without them having to put up any cash,   to further terminal itself   or,   set up, like, to be able to have in their account to be deducted as, like, people purchase,   vouchers from them.   So their our partner is doing that, and we connect them with the partner. So we're working on a presentation to open up,   to the general public, and we're gonna market it on, like, Eventbrite, LinkedIn, and Meetup, and Twitter, of course. So it's gonna be called, like, lightning for business. I really like the term,   b commerce, so maybe,   change the name there. But, essentially, it'll cover all the different aspects   of, like,   needs from the business perspective. Like, if you're a sole proprietor, you can use Zaprite or create your own invoice and bill it out. It's it's a great interface and a seamless process. It's easy to get onboarded.  

If you're a merchant like brick and mortar, you can use the Oshi app for marketing and discoverability.   You can I wrote a point of sale app that is is uses the open note API? So if you need, like if you're, like, also wanting to offer, like, quick sales, you can, you know, click to generate charge if someone scans it and pays it,   You know, if they want that novel experience.   So then you you kinda have those aspects. If you're an enterprise, then you could look at, like, converting a portion of your treasury, like using, Swan Bitcoin as an example. If you want, like, a very easy, like, dollar cost averaging in into that position   and begin saving there.  

So that that's kinda like how we imagine the the strategy.  

[00:59:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Just to piggyback off that,   DCA,   DCA thing, you know, whenever a business is accepting   Bitcoin,   a lot of the businesses that we talk with, like, they realize that there's not gonna be some massive amount or group of people that are gonna be paying with Bitcoin,   at least not at this moment.   So let's say they sell like a few coffees a week. Like, is that business gonna be comfortable   with holding on to like $12 worth of Bitcoin a week? Like,   yes. Yes. They are.   So in a way, like, every single time you make a purchase for a business that's accepting Bitcoin and generally speaking at this early stage, I'm finding most businesses are actually holding it.   You're kind of like these businesses are are, like, DCA ing by selling their products and services,   which is which is a really interesting way to think about it.  



[00:59:55] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's like directly injecting them into the circular economy. So, like, right now,   we kinda have, like, a circular economy of, like, earn and spend.   So, like, earning, you can create content, you can provide goods and services, you can play games, you can earn rewards, you can stream and entertain, you can mine. And then just to use it or to spend it,   you can huddle, you can pay others directly in goods and services, you can buy gift cards,   You can use single use,   generated cards or even now there's Bitcoin backed cards, kind of like what Brian was talking about related to, like, a Bitcoin checking account to hold in Sats, but immediately when you spend, there's an FX conversion   to whatever respective currency   and then have, you know, per pay for that good or service. So you could do it that way, or you can just pay directly   in SaaS, which to me, like, makes the most economic sense in, like, the sense in terms of, like, time   and and savings. Because it it then it ultimately makes everyone more productive.  

Like, no one wants to stand waiting in line   to pay for something, and one of the worst experiences you can have from a like a banking or checkout experience is to be declined.   With lightning, you have none of that. You don't have to even worry. Yeah. There may be a failed route, but I think that's where, like,   using a lightning service provider is particularly useful because then you take advantage of not having to manage all of your own channels and having really good routing.   And then the beautiful thing is, like, kinda touched on this before is, like,   getting your funds off. Like, if you are using a custody provider, then you're putting yourself at risk for being shut down. That's 100% true. But the thing is is it's easier now than ever to withdraw. You can essentially specify   a lightning address as as, like, in a setting somewhere. So this is my lightning address, click withdrawal, and it automatically sends   to whatever whatever node is connected to that lightning address. It could be self hosted or it could be another trusted provider. Who knows?  

Ideally, you know, self hosted. So then you can earn using lightning service providers and then immediately withdraw or transfer   off into something that's in your control. So then you're only ever,   putting, like, very small amounts,   at risk.   And even on chain.  

[01:02:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely. Right? Like, I remember   do you guys remember the async, not to be confused with   strike, but they called it I think they called it async strike, which was they were an LSP and you put in an on chain address, and they would just basically accept a bunch of lightning payments for you. And then once it hit a threshold,   it would send to an on chain address, so you didn't have as much custodial risk.  

[01:02:30] Unknown:

The new dollar cost average is self custody average because no one should have any dollars at all. We shouldn't be talking about dollar cost averaging at all. We should be talking about self custody averaging.  

[01:02:46] Unknown:

Stacking stats.  

[01:02:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Hey. Of note, Ibex   actually enables businesses to accept payments on Lightning, and it will,  

[01:02:54] Unknown:

after a certain threshold, get auto directed to an on chain address too if they want. So very similar type of features. Oh, that's awesome. Ibex was just out in Oklahoma. They were he was giving demos. It was awesome. I gotta talk to the Ibex guys and get them to add BIP 47 payment codes for the auto withdrawals   because it's important to make perfect the enemy of good.   So, I mean, we've been talking about brick and mortar a lot, but Santos,   you know, his passion project   is Chamber of Satoshi and onboarding onboarding brick and mortar, but he also works for ZBD. I don't know exactly what you do over at ZBD,   and we can get into that in a second, but,   or, like, what your role is over at ZBD. But ZBD is this idea of   of gaming with lightning, and and that is very much a circular economy as well, specifically on the streamer side,   which obviously I have   as as I don't stream video games, but I stream dispatch, and it's audience funded.  

So it's particularly interesting to me, and I saw you guys announced   today,   a new tool for streamers.   Now   just to fully load up this question before you answer it,   you know, ZBD is also a custodial   KYC'd   LSP.   How how do you got how do you think about the   like, how how do you how do you how do you think about all these different trade offs and stuff in that, you know, type of streamer virtual circular economy?  

[01:04:31] Unknown:

Yeah. One thing I want to touch on though is that we don't require KYC to use our our Xebiti   app. In order to develop, like, higher limits, then you need to KYC, but all you actually need is an email and password to sign up. Yeah. But what's the lowest limit?   You can send up to 250 k SATs per transaction  

[01:04:51] Unknown:

up to, like, I think it's, like, a1000000 or 2,000,000 sat Okay. So it's not that bad on the sender side, but on the on the actual receiver side, it's  

[01:04:59] Unknown:

it's it's Yeah. You kinda have to KYC. Right? Like, it's not? No. I don't think so. Because, like, a lot of the the payments are extremely low. They're they're atomic, actually. So when you're thinking about receiving, like, I I actually, correction, I think it's about 45,000.   And the the beautiful thing about lightning, which I touched on earlier, is you can immediately withdraw.   So you only need to you to actually use the streamer product, you don't need any sort of KYC.   And the transaction the average transaction sizes   are small enough such that, like, users are not running into that problem,  

[01:05:32] Unknown:

right now. So if I enabled it if I enabled it on dispatch,   on the streamer side,   but just an email and a password,   what are my limits? Do you know off the top of your head? Yeah. The minimum,  

[01:05:48] Unknown:

SAT would be or the minimum received amount is 1, and then the maximum per transaction is 45,000.  

[01:05:55] Unknown:

But there's not a there's not an amount?   It's just on a per transaction basis?  

[01:06:00] Unknown:

Yeah. The the limit for the total balance is 250,000,   but you can transfer them off at any time.  

[01:06:07] Unknown:

Oh, so if you keep draining it, as long as it doesn't get above that amount?  

[01:06:12] Unknown:

Correct. And then I think the the weekly or monthly limit is, like, a1000000 or 2,000,000. So we Oh, there you go. Okay. A 1,000,000 SADs for the monthly received total.   I believe so. I need to check the So what is that? That's, like, $500 right now.  

[01:06:29] Unknown:

Pretty   good. Yeah. That's decent.  

[01:06:32] Unknown:

Yeah. So and, you know, you can transfer it off at any time. It's super convenient using,   the lightning address.   Many different, wallet apps do support it. Like, for example,   Wallet of Satoshi also supports,   lightning address, so it's seamless to transfer funds off of our or send them off off of our, Lightning   platform. So there's there's that aspect of it. So with Streamer,  

[01:06:56] Unknown:

what was the specific question there? Because I I know. You answered a lot of the I loaded it. First of all, what's your role at GBD?  

[01:07:03] Unknown:

Oh, my role? I'm the business lead, so   I I work very closely with our CTO,   developing products and   developing processes for engineering. So kind of like   a pro like, kinda lead product and Cool. Engineering   person.  

[01:07:21] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I love the team you guys have over there. So you wanna you wanna so show us the streaming product. What is the streaming product?  

[01:07:30] Unknown:

So I see the streaming product as a way for, like, the digital,   circular Bitcoin circular economy to develop. So, if you go to zbd.gg/santos,   like, you can see there's a lightning address. There's a static charge QR code in any wallet that supports l and URL to essentially scan this and pay you. So you can attach this, like, to your post.   You can play games. We have a model called play to earn. So,   game developers will essentially pay you stats for playing their games,   then you kinda have the aspect of streaming and entertaining. There's a lot of gamers that are also streamers,   and we see that as incredibly, you know, valuable and   another way that people need to be able to earn Sats. Because if you look at it currently,   like, how do like, how have people been able to pay you,   using, like, Twitch as an example? You have to go through, like, US dollars, but then, you know, what if you wanna pay with with British pounds? There's a lot of actual user friction there. But the beautiful thing about SaaS is global money. So then,   you could essentially pay using any wallet that supports the ln URL protocol,   and it's all you have to do is just add, like, a browser source widget or 2,   to begin taking advantage of this. So now it's just an additional way to earn Saks as a creator   where you don't even, like, need to worry about fiat,   whatsoever. So it's that it's, like, another way of, earning, essentially.  



[01:09:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I I think the, like, the virtual economy, it's just really fucking obvious.   And I I think I mean, just in gaming in general,   the overwhelming majority of of young kids' first interaction with sats will be through games, and I think people are really sleeping on it.  

[01:09:23] Unknown:

Definitely. And imagine, like, a kid never having to get, like, a fiat bank account. Like, if you start streaming when you're, like, 12 or 13 years old, you you may never, like, even consider   using fiat. And you'll you'll automatically know, like, that the fiat banking,   experience is, like, significantly   less. Or it's, like, it it's gonna cost you a lot more time and be slower   than, like, a lightning experience would. So they already have learned by about stats and how to use stats, but and how to earn them by that point.  

[01:09:54] Unknown:

Can't jump off that. So yeah. Exactly. So little kid plays games, learn stats. Right? And then say they become 13, 14, 15. I think there is a world where that 13, 14, 15 year old becomes like a freelance   bug tester for software or is doing some other, like, remote job from their parents' Citadel,   getting paid SATs straight to their wallet, straight from their like, straight inside their parents' Citadel, nothing else involved. And so because I think then what's gonna happen at that point is businesses   so businesses are gonna direct deposit Bitcoin to their w two employees, but businesses are still gonna have incentive to hire freelance workers with freelance arrangements.  

And these kids working from their parents' citadels are gonna be able to, like, have leverage. They're they're basically gonna be, like, cheap offshore labor   that they're gonna be able to negotiate and say, sorry, I only take stats, and sorry, I'm not filling out your 10.99.   They're like, do you want my service or not? Like, and then the company is going to   pay off book stats   for that labor because they need it.   That's an example of the way that, like, the direct deposit Bitcoin Paychex and, like, the off book Bitcoin circular economy is gonna work hand in hand.  

[01:11:16] Unknown:

I mean, I do I do think it's gonna be interesting for   just the economy in general, the global economy in general, about how it can be very interconnected.   I think a lot of especially US based businesses will probably not use people that will refuse 10.90 nines, but I I think that's a different story.  

[01:11:34] Unknown:

But the market and the the in the same way that, like, payment Bitcoin payment processors everywhere is widening the amount of places that gray market   participants can shop   because the point of sale can't tell the difference. The same thing is going to happen that like the amount of jobs that will be able to go no 1099   is going to explode.   Because currently currently, it's hard to find a remote job at all that'll be no 1099.   Yeah.   Yeah.  

[01:12:08] Unknown:

I was going to say, like, I I think kind of what you're saying is, like, we're gonna migrate towards, like, a task based economy   where people are going to solve specific problems, but not necessarily work like a like, at a career or a job, like a salary, where people are more, like, using whatever their unique skill set is to then solve the problems that are most interesting to them. And they'll be like this discovery aspect where you'll complete this task, and then all of a sudden, like, you receive stats for it, and then you can move on to a completely different sort of thing. And it it'll be like this transaction,   this very virtuous transaction,   cycle, essentially. Like, you need something done, you create, like, a particular post, and then someone discovers that, proposes a solution, and then it's paid   in in SaaS. And it did a person could be, like, a task creator or task solver to some extent.  



[01:13:00] Unknown:

Definitely. And then you'll still get rehired recurring from the same people because, like, the mental way of not having to find a new person every time will still be there for the business.  

[01:13:10] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. That's really kinda how, like, Stackwork,   works. I believe it's called Stackwork.   Really cool really cool project whereby people can, like,   complete these little micro tasks and earn sats,   from anywhere in the world.  

[01:13:25] Unknown:

Yeah. I was just gonna mention that. That's by Paul Atoy, the same guy, behind Sphinx.   Mhmm. Yeah. And then there's another one. What is it? Is it MicroLancer?   Dot IO, I think, is 1.   But right now, they're, like, kind of very small paying,   almost like micro tasks.   I don't know how like, I mean, this is seems like a little bit off topic, but, like, how do you guys feel about this whole, like,   gig economy concept?   Like, isn't it kind of horrible for   the the   person that's not an employee because they're a gig economy worker?  

[01:14:06] Unknown:

It was so I think it's a great question. And it was feeling a little bit like that.   But I think Bitcoin,   like, fixes that to a certain extent. Right?   Because, like, the money itself, like, doesn't rot.   So it's, like, harder. So, like, it's it's,   easier to, like, do the task and have the money, like, not rot. I definitely agree that there's, like, downsides to it. And I think we're already, like the US already feels kind of like a caste system. Like, if you're a remote worker working inside your house, you just get Uber Eats delivered all the time. Like, that's already kind of like a CAST system.  

[01:14:40] Unknown:

Yeah. And, I mean, you know, at Oshi, we implement sort of almost like a gig economy type thing.   We say, hey. Look. Like, Visa and Mastercard shouldn't have to get, like, 2, 3, 4, 5%   of every single transaction just for, like, the privilege of sending ones and zeros over the Internet.   How about we keep that local? Like, how can we either reward the consumers or we reward, like, Bitcoiners   who go around and they, like, get businesses,   introduced to Oshi or get their family and friends introduced to Oshi to help them take their first steps into   a Bitcoin circular economy.  

To that end, I mean, it's like, you know,   as with all referral affiliate programs, like, once you're in more than $600 in a calendar a year, like, you have to do it to 99.   Of course, you could just say, alright. I'm done with that account and be done, but,   that that's the unfortunate unfortunate thing.   But,   yeah, I mean, I do think   in terms of, like, gig economy, the seamlessness of the money and, like, just the programmable aspect of it and the final settlement aspect allows you to pay workers instantly,   you know, at the at the time of every, like, purchase your referral mix in in this case or at the time of every sale of business mix in this case because settlement's final. Yeah. There's no chargebacks. So it's it's it just kinda changes the game if we're thinking about gig economy type setups.  



[01:16:00] Unknown:

Dude, Michael, we talked about that, about, like, how with payment splits and stuff getting more popular. Like, if you're if you're then a bartender at a bar that chooses to start taking Bitcoin, then you're no longer just a bartender. Like, you're almost in a salesperson at the counter. And if you can close the check for Bitcoin, you should receive a part of that sale.   And Bitcoin allows that to happen.  

[01:16:21] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. And so I'm  

[01:16:22] Unknown:

So let's talk about let's unpack this a little bit more, Michael, because, you know, usually   in in general, I mean, there's a lot of, like, raffling bullshit scams in Bitcoin.   Yeah. And I don't really   I I I usually it's usually a bad sign.  

[01:16:40] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:16:40] Unknown:

But with with with Oshi, in particular,   it's a very interesting concept because   you kind of have these so so   if if an OSI user   onboards   a business,   you   if they onboard them using   their tag. Right? So, like, I have my tag down below   previously, like, oshi.tech/odell.   If they onboard a business with that tag,   1%   of   the business that   that business does through Oshi, that person gets. So you're basically incentivizing   people to go out there,   do the pitch,   onboard businesses onto Bitcoin, and as a result, they get a cut. Right?  

[01:17:23] Unknown:

Exactly. Yeah. We're trying to make   the circular economy go around. We like,  

[01:17:29] Unknown:

we're trying to incentivize people who are already, like, so passionate about Bitcoin as it is that never gets up on the right. Businesses, Bitcoin, and I have not gotten 1% back on them.  

[01:17:40] Unknown:

Right.   So this is that opportunity.   Yeah. Yeah. Basically, you know, like, we we have we have   a a valuable service we're providing for these businesses.   And, we charge we charge less,   than than Visa and Mastercard, substantially less in most cases.   And,   you know, at this stage, we choose to give all that back to the people that are actually participating in this economy and, like, getting businesses onboarded and getting them set up. And I I'm not saying, like, you have to go into the trenches with these businesses and be like, alright. Like, let me show you how to set up your your BTC Pacer. Nothing like that. Like, we don't expect Freaks. You should do that. That would be amazing if you did it. Michael's not telling you to do that, but I'm telling you to do that, and Santos is telling you to also onboard them to Azteca at the same time. So Yeah. Do all of those things,   but it's not a requirement.  

It's not a requirement. You share that ref link. They hit us up. They're like, hey. We wanna accept Bitcoin. Oh, and, you know, my friend over here that gave me this ref link said that we we should do BDC pay server.   What you know, what do we do? Oh, perfect. Yeah. That would be great. That'd be the dream, actually. That's the dream.  

[01:18:48] Unknown:

I guess, like, my biggest concern is   is that, you know, we onboard all these merchants, and they're on, like, 1 or 2   custodial regulated LSPs.   And then it's just   it's really easy to   blow that thing up.   Yeah. And I understand. I respect the fact that it's   it's,   maybe part of the process   because they're already using custodial   regulated   fiat methods anyway.   And,   and and maybe   just the fact that we have more competition than just the BitPay. I mean, as this is not theoretical. Like, we literally had,   BigHorners spent, you know, 2 years   obsessed with onboarding merchants,   and it was all onto the same custodial regulated provider   who turned out to be evil.  

Mhmm. And that that was good pay.  

[01:19:45] Unknown:

That's why changing that's why changing, yeah, like, the social conversation around   the, like, payments and, like, the reason why   they matter, like, is important. Because I still think, yeah, the,   like, a lot of people try to say, like, oh, the the we're so early. Like, we're so early. Why, like, struggle with this? And they point back to that and how, like, oh, it's not it's not for payments then. But it's like, dude, the, like,   the dollar sucks. Like, we all know that, but, like, doing business not with it is how   you, like, win.  



[01:20:28] Unknown:

I   just wanna say that, you know, Michael said earlier, like, the way to win over businesses is not to, like, go in   and, like, you know, tell them, like, the dollar's fucked and shit. I I most of the businesses that I've I've I've onboarded have just been with the fuck the state type of   onboarding. So there are multiple methods.  

[01:20:51] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. It's   there there's there's a lot of people trying a lot of things. And, fortunately, now   we have more than just, like, BitPay,   And we have more than just like, yeah, just like download this wallet and, like, we have so many different different payment providers.   And,   you know, if one of them turns out to be a bad actor, fortunately,   you know, everybody that's building apps right now,   for for anything of this particular use case, make sure that you're interoperable with as many payment providers as possible because we're   we're   using   an open source, you know, in a fully interoperable monetary network, like,   leverage that. So, yeah, if there's a bid pay scenario, well, hey, guess what? Consumers, like, businesses, we we recommend you use this service now.  



[01:21:36] Unknown:

And and Well, and you also got that habit. All the customers are now in the habit of you taking Bitcoin. Like, so switching service providers is, like, gonna be easier. And then,   also, I think to the point earlier about, like, bit even spending Bitcoin poorly is like better than spending,   credit cards. And I started thinking about that too, like holding if you're   okay, if you're fully Bitcoin and then just fully cash, that's one thing. But a lot of people on Twitter, like are still holding dollars at Wells Fargo and dollars that chase a dollars at Bank of America, and then still kind of like armchair quarterbacking about like   the just circular economy stuff and why, like   just why there's barriers to it. But it's like holding  

[01:22:23] Unknown:

you.  

[01:22:26] Unknown:

Like, I just don't the in the same way that spending Bitcoin even poorly is better than spending credit cards, like, holding Bitcoin fully as your base money is better than holding dollars as your base money. And then your brain is gonna start moving towards, like, understanding   the mechanisms of, like, why a business would do it or, like, why you spending Bitcoin at that business,   like, makes sense to yourself, like, personally.  

[01:22:58] Unknown:

Good points. Good points.   I mean, this has been a   this has been a fantastic conversation.   I'm trying to think about where we wanna go next.  

[01:23:10] Unknown:

But what about,   like,   there's a lot of Bitcoin meetups   that I would say Yes. They are they are the people that are going to usher this in. Like, if you want one group of people in every single city across the country where you go, hey. Here are the tools. Here's the payment providers.   Here's, like, the cash apps or the strikes or the blue wallets or the moon wallets.   And for them to be able to take that information, package it up, and disseminate it out to everybody in their community, like,   that is, like,   that is huge, and we're seeing it already.  

We're seeing it,   with the Chamber of Satoshi,   Charlotte, Bitcoin meetup just had,   you know, their introduction to Bitcoin,   for businesses.   You're you're having things going on in Kansas City. Obviously, Brian's already done, like, a lot of work in in the LA area.   Austin's blowing up with that. Like,   this is the way, and it's grassroots, it's bottom up, it's not top down. The more we wait for the top down and sit in our hands,   that it's just not gonna be good in my opinion. Like, Bitcoin wins no matter what. But going back to the like, I think one of the first things you said on this on this pod, Matt,   you were like,   you know, when   when is it gonna happen? Like, are we gonna wait decades?  



[01:24:29] Unknown:

Or is it gonna be like 5 to 7 years? My time preference is low, but I'd prefer not to wait too long.  

[01:24:35] Unknown:

Exactly. And this is how we do it. It's bottom up. Like, hitting the streets, talking with businesses  

[01:24:41] Unknown:

with whatever you have. Don't don't don't stress. Like, just be like, hey. Talk something else. Meet up the meet up point is really strong. And, I mean, I think it's a point,   that's relevant to both,   both shows like Dispatch   and on Meetups is this idea that that to scale is basically   is is is educating people to the point where they can go out and they can educate 10 more people, that they those 10 people can then go out and educate 10 more people. And all of a sudden, you have a bunch of people   who are aware of the trade offs, are aware of the options, are aware of   the the the pros and cons of everything, and and can actually be on the ground helping friends and family, helping local merchants.  

The meetups in particular   over the last 2 years and it's absolutely amazing because it coincided   at the same time   with, basically, global lockdowns.  

[01:25:37] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[01:25:37] Unknown:

Where people were being prohibited from meeting in person.   The global meetup scene Bitcoin meetup scene has absolutely blossomed. It's one of the single biggest bullish fundamentals in Bitcoin that I have noticed over the last couple of years.   And so so to the freaks out there, like, if you're not participating in a local meetup, look to see if there is one. If there isn't one, maybe there's one that's, like, crypto.   Those suck.   Start your own. You know? Start your own Bitcoin meetup. Find 2 or 3 like minded people. Just start. You don't have to do anything fancy. You don't have to run a bit devs or something. Like, meet up at a local pub or something. Convince the pub to accept Bitcoin. Bartenders   are the number one easiest target to accept Bitcoin. I don't know what it is.  

Maybe it's just because I'm drunk at that point, but for whatever reason, it seems like if if if you stay at a bar for an hour and a half,   you should be able to convince them to at least accept Bitcoin at a bare minimum fashion.   So I wanna talk a little bit on the meetup note, Michael, you had this this Bitcoin block party in Austin. You wanna talk about that a little bit?  

[01:26:45] Unknown:

Yeah. So, you know,   I I overheard,   Kyle Murphy talking on, like, a John Vales podcast, and he's, like, talking about Bitcoin and community. And I'm like,   yes.   Like, absolutely. So   I, I got out of my car and I drove down to Austin, and we onboarded, like, I don't know, 13 or 15 businesses on a very,   like, small,   you know, popular street in Austin. It's called Rainy Street.   Majority of them were food trucks. It was so easy just to, like, walk up and, like, talk to the owner and be like, hey. Do you wanna accept Bitcoin and offer Bitcoin rewards? And they were like, sure. And some of them were harder to convince than others, but some of them were like,   I've been looking for this. And I was like, you know, obviously, that brought a smile to my face.  

And   so we set it up and, you know, normally, the Dawson,   scene is is really strong. Right? Always. There's, you know,   a couple of 100 people at at the meetups, each meetup, and so on.   We're estimating around 600 people showed up to this block party on a Thursday night at 8 PM,   to come out and support these businesses that are accepting Bitcoin. And we provided some incentives, additional incentives,   for the consumers in the form of rewards to actually get out there and and participate. Right?   The businesses saw the value in it. It brought them more business than they've probably ever seen on a Thursday night.   The the bar was happy as well. Like, it was a really cool thing. And this is something that's replicable   all over the country as well, and it's it's already it already is happening. Like,   Santos' Satoshi Day that they were talking about, you know, it's kind of very similar in nature. Like, you're coming out and you're celebrating businesses that are now accepting Bitcoin. You're showing your support for them. Kansas City is gonna have one as well. These are gonna be everywhere.  

So, again, like,   the time is now. Like, this this is this is, in my opinion, a fairly critical moment,   in Bitcoin. And,   you know, I it's funny too because, like, whenever you say anything like that, you always think about, like, say Roger Ver. Like, everybody needs to accept Bitcoin and, like The babies are dying. The babies are dying, but it's like, you know what?   Like, this time, we have lightning, and we have tools and infrastructure   and   to to make this work. And so we're gonna try it,   you know, on layer 2. Right? See what happens.  

[01:29:11] Unknown:

One one thing too, I think, that's really interesting is, like, the meetup,   you you kinda start talking about different ideas, different presentations to help the local community   get inspired by one another. One of our meetup members, Adam, was talking about wanting to do,   a presentation to help   seniors   essentially begin stacking sats and then how to transfer it to,   a cold storage,   wallet,   or basically transfer to cold storage   using, different cold cards at his house   to get them the education that they need with while risking,   like, very minimal. So then you start thinking about, like, how can you serve more people? You can take those sort of presentations. You can either record them individually,   like, tailored,   for, like, a online format, or you can do it locally at the local level. So then you have options to select from. Whether, like, you're an individual that feels comfortable,   like, executing it on your own or you need your handheld a bit,   to get there. And then eventually, once you have enough educational resources,   create a help and support portal   along with many different guides to get from get to level 1, to get to level 2, to get to level 3,   and kinda take you through throughout your Bitcoin journey. So that's something that we're thinking about a lot, like, at the Arizona Bitcoin Network. And a lot of people are very passionate and very knowledgeable, and it's it I think it's on us to, like, lean on the community a bit and open it up to where people can have those presentations   to to broadcast that message or to share videos.  

So, like, the community is incredibly powerful.  

[01:30:51] Unknown:

Yeah. And and, like, let's not forget about   economic development centers or corporations in these towns and cities as well. Right?   And I think you kind of alluded to some of that too, but it's like   a lot of these,   you know, like in Redding so I I started this in Redding, California,   and I actually had some support from the local economic development,   committee.   And, like, they were interested. You know? They were they were very curious. Like, just like, the mayor of Miami and, like, all of these politicians are are starting to talk about, like, Bitcoin and stuff whether or not they actually give a shit about it.   That's game theory.  

So tap into local, you know, community organizers. Right? Like, we're not going to the federal government for this. Like, ask ask,   someone in your community that that focuses on economic development and, you know, the local chamber of commerce. And and if you're not getting anywhere with that, then, just start your own. Right, Sautos?   So, like but but pretty soon, they're gonna they're gonna be coming to you,   and they're gonna be asking how they can empower their community.   Maybe how they can get   Visa and Mastercard out of their community.   And,   Yeah.  



[01:32:03] Unknown:

One cool thing too, like, you can align the incentive. So, like, if you start a meetup and you're like, how do I get money to pay for a venue? If you're out there onboarding businesses using Oshi, I think it was touched on earlier that there's, like, a referral. You earn,   essentially Sats for whenever Sats are transacted, use it using the app. So then you can essentially be out there onboarding businesses,   earn the 1%,   to support your non profit. And then from there, use that to book venues,   to purchase books or educational resources,   marketing materials for the business, which is something that we've developed over a year, taking inspiration from, like, Amex's shop small and tailoring that to Bitcoin.  

Those are all things you can do to massively impact and increase,   the the, like, the understanding of Bitcoin and getting access to it,   and to be able to fund your operations   without even necessarily, like, needing to, like,   to to sell, like, products or services or or fundraise.  

[01:33:08] Unknown:

Yeah. That would be,   Yeah. We we were talking about this the other day. Right? And it's like,   if that   if that works out in that way, that's gonna be pretty powerful.   Yeah. Before you know it, you could have   you could have cities really pushing for for Bitcoin adoption because it helps   the city.   So it's, yeah, it's gonna be pretty crazy.  

[01:33:32] Unknown:

What,   what do you guys thought? So, like,   nowadays, you go to a merchant. Right? A brick and mortar merchant. Most of them are   using, like, Toast or Clover or,   Square.   There there's, like, what? There's, like I I assume Michael knows these stats. Michael, do you know the stats of the brick and mortar payment terminals?  

[01:33:56] Unknown:

I think Square so so Toast, my understanding for restaurants, has about 30% of the market.   That's my understanding. And, Square has a quarter, I think, of, like, let's say, all, like, small businesses in in the United States.   There's Clover.   Clover has different apps. They they have, like, a much more open, like, app app store type thing that you could develop on. Yeah. For those that wanna wanna get into that,   Square has a nice open API as well to do cool stuff. Toast is completely closed. Dude,  

[01:34:28] Unknown:

I have a good Toast story, if that's what you're asking. Well,  

[01:34:31] Unknown:

I I I'm my my question was, do we think   is one of them gonna come out with Bitcoin support? And how does that   change the equation?   Is is that something you guys think about? Or  

[01:34:44] Unknown:

Yeah. I I've more   like, I think it's gonna be slower to roll out than people realize. That's my understanding. That's my impression.   I think it's far more likely that there's gonna be some sort of acquisition   to to do that. Like, even Cash App   is moving a lot faster than Square even though they're under the same block umbrella, like,   you know, I I'm I'm optimistic they'll be rolling out a bitcoin terminal but I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon   personally.  

[01:35:16] Unknown:

But I think that's also a really big opportunity for other companies to help provide bridge services by But I'm not even saying, like, a specific terminal. Right? I'm saying just an update to their existing terminals.  

[01:35:28] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:35:29] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean It just displays a QR code, and then anyone can pay it from any Lightning Wallet.  

[01:35:34] Unknown:

Yeah. My understanding is still that they're mostly looking for for acquisitions.   Like, Toast, to my knowledge, doesn't have a Bitcoin plan.   I don't have, like, insider information. I side  

[01:35:46] Unknown:

loaded BTC pay server on a Toast tablet, and we had to use an SD card and load the, like, SDK SDK as a as a web URL in order to get it to run on there. And we still got it to where they could close the Toast terminal and then open BTCPay. So that was sick. And then I ended up with a on the phone with a guy from Toast who was, like, an outside salesperson for them who is a Bitcoiner and learn and listens to, like, all the, like, all the shows. And so that was awesome. But, yeah, agreed with you, Michael, that Toast is probably the lowest   lowest,   like, of who will move first.  

I do I   I do think that, like,   I'm hyper bullish, and I think Square will move this year, like, or early next year. And then I think what will happen after that is either McDonald's, Taco Bell, or Starbucks. Basically, all the Fortune 500 companies that are the 2 next   pill like, dominoes to fall are you're right. 1 of these guys either doing it through acquisition or turning it on, and all the Fortune 500 companies that are running their pilots in El Salvador, so like Starbucks talk about McDonald's.   One of them, my gut says that their CFO and their financial people are gonna realize that it's going well, and they're gonna turn on a US based pilot. So I think you're gonna see some sort of, like, you're gonna see some sort of, press release from McDonald's that says like, hey, like, select markets now have Bitcoin turned on.  

Like, I think you're gonna see something like that as a big,  

[01:37:11] Unknown:

next domino. So let me I I mean, I I tend to agree with Brian that's gonna happen sooner than people think.   Do   let me rephrase the question.   If, let's say, hypothetically, in a month, one of the major existing   terminals   starts accepting lightning payments   by showing a QR code that any wallet can pay. Does that change   any of your strategies,   or does it just speed things up?  

[01:37:43] Unknown:

For me,   personally, it just speeds things up. I mean, I'm   with Oshi, personally, I'm   are you talking about, like, the projects that I'm working on? Or No. No. So yeah. So so with with with Oshi,  

[01:37:57] Unknown:

let's say in a month,   one of the major terminals starts accepting Bitcoin. Mhmm. It's just like a software update. They don't need new hardware.   Oshi   that's great for Oshi. Right? That's great for the Bitcoin circular economy, or am I  

[01:38:12] Unknown:

Absolutely. Yeah. We we are not a POS.   We we get businesses connected with POS systems.   We aim to provide, like, the Bitcoin rewards   loyalty   marketing for small businesses   that are willing to do so, willing to incentivize and entice customers with Bitcoin. So, like, let's say let's say, like, if striking Square has a partnership or something, right, and then it, like, gets rolled out. Okay?   Like,   that would be fantastic.   That would be phenomenal.   And and even so, like, businesses could still choose whatever payment provider they want. I mean, granted, like, let's say if that happens and whoever, like, if it's if Square partners with somebody and then they roll out lightning,   like, everyone's gonna use that if they're already using Square. But the cool thing is is that they don't have to.  

They they can, you know, opt into the monetary network using a lot of different things.   So   that's that's what's really, really exciting. It'll hasten things. It'll also legitimize it, and it'll make it far easier for me to walk into a business and say, hey. Like, did you know that your terminal accepts Bitcoin payments? Wanna do Bitcoin loyalty just like, you know, Shake Shack is doing or just like, you know, these cash, cash cards are doing on Cash App and all this stuff. Like, do you wanna do it yourself? Like, do you wanna be empowered and have that ability? Then so yeah. I mean, that would be   fantastic.  



[01:39:40] Unknown:

An interesting thing too, I would like to piggyback off of that, is, like, the definitely the rewards aspect. Like, with play to earn, we're seeing significantly higher rates of retention.   So, like, what does,   enabling a business to be able to, like, offer Bitcoin rewards back,   enable for them? Like, they'll be able to lower the payment processing costs,   offer a percentage back on the purchase.   And I can imagine, like, many people,   like, going back to that restaurant specifically because it has a Bitcoin loyalty program.   So the the Bitcoin isn't the businesses that are Bitcoin powered essentially will retain their customers better as well, which is incredibly powerful for for them because acquiring new customers is always significantly more costly than retaining your existing customers.  



[01:40:31] Unknown:

Yeah. And and just playing that game theory out,   let's say there's a business that is opted to take a certain percentage   of all Bitcoin payments and hold them on their balance sheet. Let's say they hold   the full amount, every coffee they sell.   They're gonna give 10% sats back on this cup of coffee.   In a year's time,   if they're if they if they're quote, unquote feeling lucky, right, they they could hold on to that Bitcoin. And do they anticipate that the price of Bitcoin is gonna go up more than 10% within 12 months or within 18 months. If they're willing to hold the Bitcoin for that time, that 10% discount or Sats back promotion to acquire those new customers was was free.   It was free. Yeah. And and that gets   absolutely insane. Like, if that particular  

[01:41:18] Unknown:

flywheel effect plays out, if that game theory plays out, that would be the craziest thing that I think ever happened. Look. And to get hyper bullish on that, dude, Bitcoiners need to be buying Fiat businesses for Sats on the dollar.   Like like,   Bitcoiners need to be focused on their own Sats flow. Like, that's the reason why I don't like the, like, dollars as checking account, Bitcoin as savings account thing because every single Bitcoiner is a business. Like, every single Bitcoiner is a merchant. Like, you need to be focused on your SaaS flow, and we need to be focused on acquiring   fiat, like like,   physical   places   so that we can continue to, like, make the world a better place. Like, if these businesses are not gonna start upgrading to the new money, then we're gonna buy them. For sats on the dollar, we're gonna upgrade them, and we're going to continue,   like, doing this.  



[01:42:18] Unknown:

Love the energy, guys.   And, look, this has been a fantastic conversation.   I appreciate all of your time.   I think it's a very important topic, especially   the whole meetup grassroots,   being the change you wanna see in the world in your local community,   be good to your neighbors.   I like to we're about to hit the 2 hour mark.   I want to be courteous of your time. I like to wrap this up with   final thoughts.   Santos, we'll start with you. Final thoughts.  

[01:42:54] Unknown:

I love the conversation.   Absolutely honored to be here and, like, share some of these ideas and strategies,   discuss what's going on in Arizona. So if you're ever in Arizona, please just check out,   you know, meetup.com/,   I think, az bitcoiners, or that might be our Twitter handle, and and, join us for a drink.  

[01:43:14] Unknown:

Cheers. Thanks, Santos.   Brian, final thoughts.  

[01:43:18] Unknown:

Final thoughts. Look, the lockdown changed a lot of things for me. Like, it made me realize that Bitcoin's happening right now in person. And when I heard, like,   just appreciate, like, what you and Marty do. And when Marty interviewed, like, Mike from Bitcoin Beach, it made me realize, like, all the tools are available right now. And so having, like,   Osheyap and Michael come down to Southern California, like at Next Burger that day when we had that party and then watching what Michael has done,   and watching what Kyle's doing in Austin and, like, meeting the guys in Kansas City, just got back from Oklahoma. Like, that all means, like, a really lot to me. So Bitcoin means a lot to me, and I'm thankful to, like, do this with all of you and, like, honestly, helpful.  

[01:43:56] Unknown:

Cheers.   I appreciate you as well, Brian. Thanks for coming on the show. Michael, final thoughts.  

[01:44:02] Unknown:

Yeah. I love all you guys. Thanks to everyone in in the chat as well for showing up, man. Like, I was telling you before, Matt, like, I grew up on on TFTC   and, Citadel Dispatch,   basically, like,   religious religious following there.   Yeah. I think I think it's just time   for,   for people to kinda get out there and, like, shake a business owner's hand, right, and and just start the conversation.   Like, what what Brian was saying, what Santos was saying, like,   it's happening.   We can we can start, like, a little piece of Bitcoin Beach,   like, in in cities all across the country,   all across the world.  

What the tiny,   like, town of El Zante, El Salvador, right, with a small group of people and a lot of passion were able to do, like, that should be   the thing that gets people going that, like, this can happen anywhere.   Right? And even if the reasons are a little different for why it happens. Right?   Like, it can happen.   So, like, we're rolling into Miami to Nashville. The beat ups are blowing up in Austin, like, everywhere. Right? Phoenix.   Just keep it going, everyone.  

[01:45:13] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah. Thanks, Michael.   It's it's   it was a pleasure kicking with you. Are are you guys gonna be in Miami?   Yeah. We'll be there. Brian will be there. Michael, you'll be there? Yeah. I'll be there. We'll have probably  

[01:45:30] Unknown:

a couple dozen businesses as well that are that are, on Ocea up there, accepting Bitcoin.   It's gonna be cool. So, yeah, go out go out and support them. Santos, you'll be there too?  

[01:45:42] Unknown:

Yep. Definitely gonna be there. Well, Santos, I look forward to meeting you in person. Michael and Brian, I look forward to kicking it with you in person again.   So I guess, Michael, like, people should download Oshi app before they go to Miami so they can see which merchants are available there.  

[01:45:58] Unknown:

Yeah. They should. Yeah. If if you guys, you know, are interested in, you know, slinging some stats around to local businesses, then, yeah, you should check out the OCF.   Should should I show your code, Matt? Yeah. Show show my scam code. It's a scam code. So oshi.tech/odell.  

[01:46:15] Unknown:

If you wanna support the show. I joke around that all reps are scams, but,  

[01:46:20] Unknown:

Hey. This one is gonna support, you know, whatever you want it to support, Matt. So whether it's sealed up dispatch or open Support sealed dispatch and,  

[01:46:28] Unknown:

Bitcoin circular economy. 2 not 2 noble goals. I would say the circular economy is a more noble goal, but I I think the money needs to go to Matt because we need Matt to be acquiring laundromats and Dude, I'm not buying any Fiat businesses. Brian, you could buy No. And then you convert them into Bitcoin and then you can dude, we're this is gonna be a show this is gonna be a show on CNBC. It's gonna be, like, the sit the bar rescue, but it's gonna be Fiat business rescue and biz Bitcoin business owners are gonna go in and help people.  

[01:46:57] Unknown:

Okay, guys. If you use if you use my ref link, I will put the stats away, and maybe I'll buy a laundromat in the future  

[01:47:04] Unknown:

and convert it to a Bitcoin standard.  

[01:47:06] Unknown:

Yes. No promises.   I love all you guys. This is a great conversation.   Thank you to all the freaks who joined us. I hope you found this conversation as helpful   and as   as interesting as I did.   Reminder, next week's dispatch will be in person in Miami.   If you wanna join us for that, that's still dispatch.com/miami.   Space is limited. Drinks will be included so we can kick it and have a good time.   I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to broadcast that live. I'm gonna try to if I can. If not, it'll be posted, you know, immediately following,   the live conversation.  

Yep. With all that said, thanks to our guests one more time, and thanks to the freaks. Cheers, guys.  

[01:47:53] Unknown:

Cheers. Thank you.   Very.  

[01:52:01] Unknown:

Thank you.  

[01:52:05] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. Looking forward to kicking with you all in Miami. Stay humble, Stack Sats.