Citadel Dispatch

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Join Matt Odell as he sits down with openoms and evankaloudis

EPISODE: 0.0.6

BLOCK: 667811

PRICE: 3117 sats per dollar

TOPICS: Lightning, Encryption, and Bitcoin Hardware

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Welcome back to the show. You're putting government money into a very volatile   cryptocurrency.   You wanna explain why you're doing that?  

[00:00:09] Unknown:

Sure. If I would have done it last year, I would have made 200 plus percent, so I would have looked like a genius.   But we wanna be one of the most crypto forward, and technological   cities in the country. So we're looking at, number 1, creating a a regulatory framework,   that makes us the easiest place   in the United States to do, business if you're doing it in cryptocurrencies.   We're looking at laws from, Wyoming, Wisconsin, and New York, a regulatory environment. And we have a tremendous amount of interest in tech right now. So we're looking at a variety of things from being able to make payments in crypto,   in Bitcoin in particular, being able to pay your taxes, being able to pay fees to the city. And then, yes, we are looking at the possibility of diversifying   our investment portfolio   and having and holding a percentage of our, investments in Bitcoin.  



[00:00:56] Unknown:

Is this all part of your move to bring   high-tech companies, big tech companies to Miami?   I I know you've got good weather. I know you've got low taxes.   Are you using a Bitcoin investment as a further inducement?  

[00:01:13] Unknown:

It is. I I think, you know, the world is watching, and and the world is, always   seeing all the things that cities do. If you're inviting,   that's something that, cities are benefit benefiting from like like we are. I want other creative and the innovative class to come here and create high paying jobs for my residents.   And, certainly, there is a an enormously large   crypto and Bitcoin community,   particularly,   you know, on social media,   and they are carefully watching as these assets   become more and more mainstream.   The more that, organizations like the city of Miami and others,   mainstream Bitcoin, there's only one direction, that the prices are gonna go because we know that the supply of money is limited. It's only gonna go up.  



[00:02:36] Unknown:

Cheers, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here with a bottle of mezcal   and my 2 good friends, Open Arms and Evan Kaludis,   for episode number 6 of Citadel Dispatch.   I wanna welcome all the freaks that are here with us live,   for our new Tuesday, Bitcoin Tuesday tradition.   It's always a pleasure   chilling with you guys. I know I enjoy it. I hope,   the freaks joining us today are enjoying themselves, and I hope that OpenOps and Evan Kaloudis are enjoying themselves.   So   to the freaks listening in, that was Miami mayor Francis Suarez,   pumping the corn for us on Fox Business.  

That's still pretty unreal to me.   That was a little bit less than a week ago, and it already feels like old news.   To the freaks joining us on the livestream, I have,   the same price display I had on last week. On the top, we have the evil empire Coinbase Pro, which you can see has a large amount of liquidity.   And then we have the good guys, Bisc, underneath,   that's trucking through with their no KYC   sat stacking.   So what's up, guys? I   I'm really excited   to   have this conversation. I think there's a lot of important things we can talk about here.   Primarily, I mean, I wanna do a heavy focus on lightning, but I think we're gonna be all over the place. And I'm I'm pretty I I couldn't couldn't pick a better pair to do this with.  

The freaks might realize that Evan is is our first return guest here on Citadel Dispatch, only 6 episodes in. He was he was on the first episode.   So, I mean, let's just start. I mean, Evan Evan doesn't need an introduction. He already had one. Thanks for being here, Evan. Yay.  

[00:04:21] Unknown:

I'm well, I'm so pumped to be back. You know? It it's great. You know, Bitcoin Tuesday is becoming a great tradition. So,   yeah, I'm just happy to get into it. Thanks for having me back, Ben.  

[00:04:31] Unknown:

Fuck yes.   Sorry for cutting you off there. I wasn't tripping into it. Time is money.   And then we have Open Arms here. Open Arms is a fucking legend. He's a friend.   He's been doing a lot in the Bitcoin hardware space,   with his work with the Raspberry blitz project and join inbox,   and he's been very focused on privacy.   What's up, Open Arms?  

[00:04:56] Unknown:

Hey. Hello. Very, very happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.   Being here live, you know, it's a big thing. I do I do a pop. Oops. I don't know how that went to say  

[00:05:06] Unknown:

That was a great pop. That sounded great.   Yeah. This Better than my week at pop.  

[00:05:13] Unknown:

So the the thing is that middle of the lockdowns, you know, I managed to get this thing right from the factory in from a Portuguese island in Madeira   last month end of December. So, you know, pretty,   proud of that.   So, you know, happy to share that   with you guys. Otherwise, who wouldn't know me, I'm from   20 Bitcoin generation of 2017.   I've been,   like, coming head first into   into lightning basically, and   then being focusing on on security, which is the privacy.   I realized privacy is the huge part of security. So basically I I just went down on the angle,   quite hard learning   programming.  

I cannot say that it's not in the past. It's I'm I'm learning continuously, trying to publish as many things as I can as I learn them,   and, make it available for others.   And,   yes,   all the other privacy tools.   And, yeah, we'd like to, you know, just throw us the questions.  

[00:06:28] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well, cheers.   I,   I wanted to start   with this   with this idea. Sorry. I got a little bit sidetracked.   I wanted to start with Lightning.   And there's been a lot of discussion lately with Lightning,   with regard to   private channels versus public channels.   And I think, like, people are a bit confused here.   I,   people are confused on all sides,   whether that's a a Bitcoiner or, like, a a Bitcoin cheerleader or a Bitcoin denier or, like, a lightning pragmatist.   I feel like there's very few in the room that kind of   see what's going on here, see, you know, how this is developing. And I think YouTube guys are are kind of on the front lines there,   along with me to a degree.  

So   I mean so   my my feeling that I think people are missing   is   is is that we basically have   2 different lightning networks   that are forming, and there's, like it's almost 2 separate theses.   Like, we we have this private   channel   network that is appears to be emerging in the background, that that appears to be emerging, you know, with the strikes of the world   and and, like, all the major exchanges, Bitfinex, you know, maybe Coinbase eventually in, like, 5 years, who the fuck knows with them, but like Kraken, Bitstamp,   where they have these massive private channels to basically allow traders to they don't have it yet, but this idea that they have these massive private channels that allow traders to move between their platforms,   for low fees,   pretty much instantly.  

Low fee is very quick,   and they don't actually go through any routing notes or anything. They're completely that's completely   unaffected by the public   Lightning Network. The the Lightning Network that is self sovereign Bitcoin user that never interacts with exchanges might might   deal with,   It has a completely different trade off balance. It's a completely different product. It's a completely different network, and I almost   see that as, like, a guarantee. Like, I think   that technology makes a lot of sense to me. You have, like, these semi trusted relationships between exchanges.   They're using this trust minimized protocol to balance out their their transfers between themselves. I think that could be successful while the   broader Lightning Network, the public Lightning Network, the self sovereign Lightning Network that someone like us would connect to to make a p to p payment   could could fail, and and the private lightning network could be a success.  

I was curious what your thoughts are here.   I I guess, let's start with Evan.  

[00:09:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure thing. So   as you guys know, there's a pretty big distinction between having a public channel and a private channel.   And, right now, I think the biggest difference is,   between, you know, finding your routes and,   you know,   what the what the goal of that channel exactly is nowadays.   So as far as it goes, like, when you're running a node, you really need to keep in mind, like, what are you trying to optimize for at the moment.   So are you trying to,   you know, make these transactions   and have them you know, your personal transactions and have them as private as possible, have them only pertaining to the parties,   you know, that that need to know about it,   or are you trying to run, like, a bigger operation? Are are you trying to,   you know,   profit off of being a man in the middle of sorts   and routing   payments from hop a to hop b and making money off the fees. So   depending on, you know, what what your   goal is in running that lightning node, you're definitely gonna have a different structure of how your channels are laid out and whether they're public or private.  

You know, furthermore, you gotta be strategic   in   who you're opening channels with and,   you know, who those county who's who those counterparties are and, furthermore, like, you know, the quality of that liquidity. Like,   you know, not all not every channel is gonna,   you know, have the same value to you. It's gonna depend a lot about, like, your flows,   what your kind of usage of the network is. Is it personal use? Or, what are if you're a service, what your users are using.   There's, like, a whole lot of nuance to that.   And then furthermore,   we have   to take into consideration,   like, how,   pathfinding is done.  

Now   is   and, like, the present system pretty much, like, your node   is, like,   pulling the graph of all the lightning nodes and   asking each one, like, who they have a connection to and sort of, like, calculating   itself on the fly.   And as the protocol develops and matures, there's gonna be, like,   more advanced methods of doing that pathfinding.   You're gonna be able to, like, have a third party do that pathfinding for you. You're gonna,   you know, there's gonna be new methods of making payments, like, rendezvous   payments where you can make a payment to someone without even knowing,  

[00:11:55] Unknown:

to Evan. I love you. I love you, Evan, but I think this is the issue why this conversation   never it never hits like, I I try and   the goal with Citadel dispatch is to try and make it more actionable. Right? And,   I'm excited about all these different things that we're gonna see with lightning, but the key I wanna make here is this distinction.   Okay. Right? This distinction that   we've we've heard this argument with Liquid.   Right? With this argument with Liquid, by Blockstream, the side chain, this federated side chain that the main use case is for traders,   which is not us. And the 3 of us, it's we're not the use case for liquid. That traders are gonna trade between exchanges,   to do arbitrage and shit, and time matters and fees matter,   for those people. They want it to be fucking instant.  

And that's why Liquid has their one minute confirmation times. Mhmm.   Private   lightning network usage,   these massive private channels that are going between exchanges,   is that use case but better? Am I right or am I wrong?  

[00:12:58] Unknown:

I don't know exactly. It's gonna   I could see a future where   LN actually   is the p to p network that we're using personally amongst the plebs,   And, you know, l n could potentially,   also be that pipe between the exchanges, but, you know, I think there's also gonna be a battle there between   liquid. Because, like, let's say, for example, you have, like, an arbitrage trader. Right? And they have enough liquidity on the exchange.   They might find an arbitrage opportunity, right,   and end up emptying out, like, the pipe to that you have between those two exchanges,   like, to to make the the maximum return on their arbitrage. So, like, l n could potentially,   see some complexities there   where, you know, the big dogs are, like, emptying out those pipes. It becomes a different ballgame,   though, when there's multiple routes between the exchanges, though, and that's where things get really complex.  

So to say that things are gonna go definitively one way or another right now   is really hard to say. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see that play out over the next few years. I mean, look. We're in the business of taking away the nuance and making definitive concise claims,  

[00:14:13] Unknown:

because that's what gets engagement. But, also, I think that's what's productive.   But I mean, I from my perspective, like, I don't think   that,   and obviously, none of us have a crystal ball, so we're making predictions. Right? But I I don't think this idea of, like, multiple chat like, multiple routes between exchanges will be a reality. I think, you know, if you're Bitfinex,   you're just gonna   have, you know, a a $50,000,000,   a $100,000,000   channel,   with with your, you know, the other large exchanges, and you'll have it direct with them. You won't have any routing nodes in your way.   You won't have any fees besides just you and that   other exchange, so you guys can agree to just no   fees. And you have, like, a semi trusted relationship already.  

So why would you ever end up going through a routing node? That's different than if they offer withdrawals.   That I think that's a separate product. Like, I see exchanges offering these private lightning for traders before they offer actual lightning withdrawals. I think it's a completely different use case. And then I I see people,   like our friend Grubles on Twitter talking about the negative of lightning being the liquidity issues.   I don't   like, liquid has those same issues. Like, am I wrong open arms? Like, how, like, how like, if I wanna send   if if an exchange needs to send 20 Bitcoin on liquid to another exchange, like, they need to have 20 Bitcoin in liquid pegged in already.  



[00:15:40] Unknown:

Yes. And then I mean, now we are speaking about actionable things. You know, we speak about exchanges, which I'm not very interested in. But in any way,   the big biggest difference between liquid and lightning that that   lightning channel,   by the way it can be based on liquid as well, it is a payment channel. So the   the traffic is bidirectional   and   the   whereas   with liquid, you're just showing the things back and forth   The   with Bitcoin main base   they are slightly quicker and   cheaper.   So   and but still, it would be kind of the instead of the end of the day settlement or end of every hour settlement, you you will use liquid instead of instead of, the base.   I mean Right? But for lightning, you would you would just throw things   around   with the speed of lightning. Right? So as as traders move from here to their   arbitraging that digital opportunities where, you know, they make a set there, another set of sheet there,   and and that as you say there will be no routing nodes in between   the exchanges, obviously, and every, like, major nerd   will have direct   channels between them where the transaction is free and   quick and also reliable.  

Whereas   there are users so so from the point of view of the user, why would I want to why would someone want to use a a private channel?   Well, it's   for, basically,   privacy reasons   that   you have   if you have a private channel only,   you don't want to be routing, you know, because   you are exposing yourself to not only privacy risk, but, you know, people for   people are forwarding HDRCs on you, they fail,   the channel gets forced closed, you get incurred costs, and there is a risk involved with that.   Risk of not losing the money from the channel, but   to lose the price of the on chain on chain settlement which can be high just like nowadays.  

You open a private channel or even better, your exchange, let it be Stripe, for example, the the biggest example,   opens a private channel to you.   And what you do,   you are doing your DCA, you are stacking sets so to say. Okay. So,   or every week you you you buy you   know,   you do. And then   you also, you know, pay your coffee or or   or, you know, go for   a meet up with friends and share the cost of the meal or things like that. So   but the   direction of flow of the of the sets is is is two way, but you don't need routing. And then when you have, you know, £2,000   verse or $2,000   verse built up on   that   channel, so it's always it's almost full.  

And I don't even want to speak in fiat. You have like 2,000,000 built up 2,000,000 sets built up on the channel, so it's almost full because it's it's it's a limited size because it's only us 33,000,000   which the exchange opened to you, you would just swap it out. Swap it out to cold storage.   Swap it out with a with a 3rd party provider   with who is providing you great privacy because there is no on chain   kind of where that UTSO came from, which then goes into your core storage.   Or you can, you know, put this through if you can.  

[00:19:31] Unknown:

You're breaking up a little bit over there, open ops, just for whatever it's worth.   I don't know if you can do anything on your side, but we're willing to deal with it because we appreciate you so much. But I just wanted you to know that. I mean, I I think you kind of   you got lost in the weeds a little bit again on me.   This is what, you know, this is kind of what I'm saying. Like, I don't   I wanted to you hit, like, 2 point you hit multiple points there. And and and my point is is that Lightning could be a massive success   on the private exchange side   just as private channels,   and that means absolutely shit all for the average user,   if they're not a trader.  

And that's fine. It is what it is. It's just a different,   use case. A completely different separate use case. And so when someone says, like, oh, but there's really these massive private channels,   which I am guilty of as well. I sent out a tweet. I was like massive private channels between exchanges.   That doesn't mean that it has any effect. It's completely unrelated really to the public lightning network.   In this respect, those private channels, not all private channels. Some private channels matter, but not not those.  

[00:20:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean,   there's a complete difference as far as, you know, the the 2   go, really. I   mean, we have complete insight into the public channels, and they all get graphed on Graph Explorers like 1ML. And,   you know, all the private channels are pretty much a black hole until, you know, you get some insight   into 1 by using it or getting, like, routing hints from someone.   So it's hard to even,   you know, quantify what's going on there or really get an insight. We can only make educated guess   as to what that volume looks like.  



[00:21:21] Unknown:

And then the other thing is I I saw   open. We appreciate you backing out and coming back in. Hopefully, that helped.   You know, the other the other thing here is, you know, Stefan we have Stefan Lavera in the comments section.   Appreciate all of you in the comments,   the live comments. The show wouldn't be the same without you. Saying liquid doesn't have quite the same issues in my opinion.   We have 6102   saying that liquid has a different security model. Yeah. Absolutely.   It does. And   but to exchanges, I think, you know, some of those issues I think some of the issues are similar.   I think the liquidity issue is something that,   liquid proponents,   you know, aren't   it's not as effective argument as they think it is, because I do think the liquidity issue is a issue on on   on liquid,   you know,   in these larger situations   where you're sending large amounts.  

The other thing is,   I mean, with liquid, you have different risk. Right? You have this risk that you're trusting this multisig,   this federated multisig.   Those those you know, they're they're running on HSMs, but it's also hot just like with with Lightning. But with Lightning, you know,   a a Lightning relationship can emerge between Strike and Cash App,   without any   conversation with any other party. They can just simply   use the lightning protocol right now to create a trust minimized payment channel between the 2 of them, not tell anybody about it except traders that wanna switch between the platforms, and they're ready to go. They don't have any third parties that are involved in that process. And I think   that alone, that reduced regulatory risk, that reduced third party risk for these exchanges   makes it a night and day improvement over over using liquid in that situation. And maybe liquid made more sense for these last 3 years, you know, as, like, a stop gap while lightning got ready and got got more prepared.  

But, like, we didn't have fees, and and it it they they missed their they missed their opportunity.  

[00:23:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's a huge part of the the equation too. I mean, you're doing on chain transactions to get into liquid to begin with. So in that regard,   they're  

[00:23:38] Unknown:

very similar, I would say. 6102 is asking me why do I care about exchange liquidity and inter exchange settlement. That's the point. I don't.   Exactly. And but it's happening,   but it's just unrelated. And just it's something that's happening. What do you mean? People couldn't you it doesn't everything doesn't have to be, like, bullish for, you know, average Bitcoin users.  

[00:23:56] Unknown:

But I I think it is important in a lot of ways. Like, think about it. Like, the price differences on exchanges.   Right? Like,   the the the swings right there   can create a lot of volatility. Once you're able   to go from one exchange to another, right, and it doesn't take, like, an hour of doing the trade and waiting for blocks to confirm, and it just, like, happens in a couple of minutes, if not seconds,   you know, you're gonna get much more price stability.   So I think to the greater ecosystem,   it is pretty important. I mean, maybe the average user doesn't exactly care about the average exchanges flows, but it's gonna have a positive effect if you can make that jump   as far as arbitrage goes, a quicker process, and I think we'll all benefit.  



[00:24:40] Unknown:

Yeah. It it contributes to better price stability   between between jurisdictions   and,   yeah, I mean, that that's that's about it, really.  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

But it only it only really helps   if if you have, like, a tether or something on the opposite side.   Like, I I feel like, you know, the the the arbitrage the arbitrage   friction   is not, you know, the 10 minute Bitcoin confirmation times,   for transferring Bitcoin between the exchange. I mean, it is to a degree, but the the Fiat transfer is harder. Anyway, we're getting into the nuances here.  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

I'm not sure if it really matters. What? There are a lot of nuances with the l n. I mean, you know, how deep into the weeds do you wanna get, Matt? I mean, if we can go in, you explain   onion routing, like, we can get really, really nuanced as far as,   you know, liquidity, privacy, all these things go. So Okay. Stefan's coming in hard. It matters, guys.  

[00:25:41] Unknown:

I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It's it's good to have price you know,   better price discovery across the world is what we want ultimately.   We want the world to be priced in SaaS, and you're not gonna get that without better infrastructure.   Yep.  

[00:25:56] Unknown:

Will it allow us to to store   less bits going on exchanges overall?   So if it can flow better, then we have you know, less is enough   so people can trade with less,   which is the trend   luckily nowadays.  

[00:26:13] Unknown:

One of my favorites is is, you know, like, Adam Bak is, like, a fucking   crypto legend   cryptographer   legend,   and, like, he loves arbitrage.   I don't know why. He's, like, he's, like, constantly tweeting about how he's, like, sent you know, he he he used an arbitrage opportunity to make a little spread. I just I don't know. Random.  

[00:26:36] Unknown:

He's manipulating market, is he?  

[00:26:38] Unknown:

Yeah. I I so so   yeah. Let's jump into that. Yeah. You said okay. So first of all,   we saw   you know, this is a little bit not Bitcoin, but fuck it. We saw the whole GameStop thing, you know,   go crazy today,   with Reddit traders pushing GameStop price up.   In my opinion,   in a true free market, there's no such thing as manipulation.   Agree or disagree?   Start with you, Evan.  

[00:27:13] Unknown:

I I I agree in one way in one sense of it.   I would say,   generally speaking,   you know, all trades really   happen with some information asymmetry. Right? Like, no having some sort of inside knowledge of what's going on.   Otherwise, you're just gambling, right, or,   you know, just just being a a guess as to where things are gonna go.   What's really interesting about,   this GameStop thing is just, like, how it's coordinated   and how, like, you know, just these average traders on and what is it? Wall Street Bets on Reddit   have coordinated such a big thing   that's,   like, really crushing   so many hedge funds.  

Mhmm. It's like it's gonna has so much, like, potential to, like, just wreck this industry. Like, hedge funds can, like, end up getting wrecked   just by some, like, Internet posters.   Like, I I think it's gonna be really interesting to see the repercussions of this thing play out.  

[00:28:15] Unknown:

It's sort of nuts when you think about it. Well, it's not just that because, I mean, there's an there's a   you know, Robinhood the way Robinhood makes their money is they sell their flows,   to other hedge funds.   So it's not just Redditors,   that are wrecking   opposing short selling hedge funds. It's also the hedge funds that are using your editors flow to to front run them   and blow them up at the same time.   Yeah. But my point is all is fair all is fair and love war and and free markets. Like, the the world that we're going to,   you know, in a proper free market, in a proper place where you can trade,   privately without KYC, globally without friction,   where, you know, the EMH proponents win and every little thing is priced in appropriately.  

There's no such thing as insider trading. There's no such thing as manipulation.   It is a profit opportunity that is taken, and it shows itself on the market.  

[00:29:14] Unknown:

Yeah. This thing is not going away, and it's gonna only increase over time. It's gonna get nuttier, and it's something you're not gonna be able to regulate away.   So, you know, if you block one venue for this to happen on, you know, so some is gonna appear in in another. You know? And as we're seeing, like, these stocks become, like,   you know,   tokenized,   you know, it's it's gonna be really hard to to work around this. So And Open Arms covered this today. He's you know, he mentioned,  

[00:29:44] Unknown:

on Twitter, you mentioned in in the Netherlands,   the KYC is getting worse particularly for Bitstamp users.   And you said that they should, you you know, people should use BISK and people should use HODL HODL. I mean, Open Arms, like, what do you have to say to the people who would tell you that without KYC,   Bosch Trading is is very easy to do, and insider trading is very easy to do, and market manipulation is very easy to do.  

[00:30:10] Unknown:

Well   and and it is difficult with k y c, you mean?  

[00:30:15] Unknown:

I'm saying, you know, k y c is what stops those things from happening, they would say. Am I am I wrong? Like, that's, like, without KYC, if you don't know who the market participants are, like, how do you enforce any of this stuff?  

[00:30:30] Unknown:

Well, you know, I tried gambling. I I didn't try,   trading to be honest. You know? The this I mean, looking at the stock market as as well, it it looks like the end of 2017   in in crypto, you know, in quotes.   You know, that that that's the peak. I mean, KYC, I mean, what do we want to achieve here? I mean, you want to KYC the trailers? I mean, let it be. But to No. For me to see this  

[00:30:57] Unknown:

no KYC to the freaks open on. Yeah. No. That's what I want you to do. No. Yeah. Absolutely, sir. Bisk liquidity. Like, I'm looking at the numbers right now and and those are rookie numbers. We gotta pump them up.  

[00:31:09] Unknown:

Yeah. But what I think that   KYC is outright harmful for people who just want to convert one thing to another. Right? There is there is no point   to to buy something.   Like I just found out a couple of days ago that if I need to now after Brexit from the UK, I need to send the package to the EU,   it's   they need to know the passport number of the person who actually imports   the the even a gift. Right? What?   Well, I mean this is the same stupidity. Right? If I if I if I send you money and want to take Bitcoin out, why would you need to know why who I am, you know?   What is the purpose of that? There is no   it's not for to stop wash trading, but I'm not going back ever again.  

So   absolutely, I mean the way is as listed in that in that tweet there is the   non custodial   k y c   platforms like BISK, which is, you know, the absolute best. You need to you need to go trade there and, you know, even if you if you are trading with friends or, like, friends who you don't trust that much, you can use their system to   to make sure everything goes as planned. And then hold the order is quite the same. I mean, it takes a bit more,   it's it's more centralized   and takes   more to get used   to their system, but it it it's it's a proper escrow system.   It it is quite nice as well. But then, you know, sell things, work for Bitcoin,   earn it, and   obviously mine it. Right?  

Then you are paying for electricity, getting bitcoin.   And these are the way for the small people. I mean, I'm not in the world of, you know,   big traders.   I I I leave that to Adam Beck.  

[00:33:04] Unknown:

Our pro trader.   Yeah.   I, I, you know, I hate saying this, but but, to the freaks out there, consider liking, subscribing, sharing. It goes a long way. We appreciate you.   Don't get used to me saying that because   it had to vomit in my mouth a little bit while I say it.   I look. I I think, you know, I'm I'm a weirdo a little bit because   I I guess I'm I'm known for, you know, trying to increase   solid,   you know, dollar cost averaging, conservative,   no k y c,   saving for the future,   you know, long you know, load time preference thinking.   But at the same time, I fucking love gambling, and I I   and I you know, the concept of trading, I love the concept of trading even though I know that I would get wrecked and most people get wrecked,   if they do it,   because   and this is why I love the concept of of sat stacking, just in general, just investing,   or saving for your future. It's skin in the game. This idea of skin in the game, like, we live in a world where engagement numbers are easy to to fake,   where, like, every metric is fakable.  

It's like a post truth world people say. But at the end of the day,   if if you put your money where your mouth is, and now we have actually good money to do that with SATS,   There's a there's a winner and there's a loser. There's someone that was right and someone that was wrong. We don't have to argue for years and,   you know, endlessly and come to no conclusion.   You know, like, if if you decided to hold ETH at the top of the 2017 bubble instead of Bitcoin, you have way less Sats today. And that is definitive, it is objective,   and there's there's a beauty to it.  



[00:34:53] Unknown:

Well, there is ETH and there is USD and, you know, British pound and euros.  

[00:34:59] Unknown:

And my favorite one now is the Chrysler building, which keeps going down in Bitcoin value.   So   on another hot topic,   that no one seems to be talking about, I'm gonna switch it again. And by the way, when we leave topics, we'll come back to those topics. I just wanna keep the ball rolling.   Like like to have fun with this,   and keep hitting us with you hit us with questions and stuff in the chat. You know, maybe we don't hit it right away, but we we we will come back to it if we can. So just keep hitting us with stuff in the chat. What? I saw some Zeus questions. We'll circle back to those. Yeah. 100% we'll circle back to Zeus. I love Zeus.   I love that we finally got Tor integrated. Fuck yes. Super excited, but we'll get back to that. Before then,   right now, Coinbase,   the evil empire, they're on the top of the ticker if you're watching the livestream,   trading at about $32,000   right now. Largest exchange in the world,   maybe not by volume because we go back to to fakable metrics and, you know, you can fake those metrics especially if you don't have KYC and you do wash trading,   which is fine by me, you know, all is fair.  

Coinbase is the largest exchange in the world by number of Bitcoin they hold. That's an objective measurement.   We know they have about 800,000 Bitcoin.   What isn't talked about   is their custody side, which is way   larger than that. We know that GBTC,   the fake ETF that is traded,   and run by Grayscale,   Digital Currency Group, which is Barry Silbert's company, the parent company of CoinDesk,   has over 650,000   Bitcoin. And guess who they custody it with? They custody it with   Coinbase. And And no one really talks about this. When you when you share those exchange balance charts that are going down,   they don't include that custody number. And I'm guilty of this too. I've I've I've posted that glass note chart saying, look how bullish this is. All the coins are leaving exchanges.  

They're leaving exchanges and a lot of them are going into regulated custodians,   the number one being fucking Coinbase.   So,   to the freaks out there that may be concerned about this, you know, we have   over,   we we have over we're like 1 and a half 1000000 Bitcoin   at least   are being custody by Coinbase.   Why or why not should this be a concern?   We'll start with Evan.  

[00:37:28] Unknown:

Well,   on one hand,   you know, any centralized party having a lot of share over something is really not good for the genie of a coin. Right?   However, we don't have the same concerns that we would have,   with, say, a coin that's based on staking   and   and this shareholder be having, like, such a heavy weight as far as, like, voting on different features or whatnot goes. So on one hand, you'd like to see,   them to be custodying less, but our network doesn't have the same issues that some of these new tokens and new schemes,   do as far as the POS stuff goes.  

So it's a bit of a mixed bag, obviously,   but, you know, we just gotta keep encouraging people to, you know, take custody whenever possible. And, you know,   the biggest part of this   is education.   Obviously, you know, there's gonna be some people who do want a custodian,   but, like, you know, the the people that are listening to the show obviously are gonna be taking control of their keys. Not your keys. Not your coin, etcetera.  

[00:38:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Not so not your keys, not your coins, and not your nodes, not your rules.   You know, they can fork away. They can   manipulate   the fork as well as as we have seen that happening.   Also,   I mean, there are a couple of properties of Bitcoin. I mean, it depends which one,   people came for. I mean, everyone   likes like number go up. Okay? That happens on Coinbase as   well, except when Bitcoin cash pumps rather instead.   Mhmm.   Mhmm. But the Bitcoin which you hold in an on an exchange is not unconfiscatable,   and it is not censorship resistance. And if you came for that properties, then you have nothing to do with exchanges, and you should just never even touch any cost to your   exchange wallet   or however you call it, or hosted once either.  



[00:39:35] Unknown:

Yeah. And I think, like, the big problem that   we face, I think it's not even just with Bitcoin, but I think in general, our society is like people   really just value convenience   so much more than, like, you know,   sovereignty or privacy. And I I think we all struggle with that. You know, like,   we we're all still carrying a cell phone around on our day to day. Right?   But the thing is with Bitcoin,   the Google there. Yeah. Yeah. The the ease yeah. The the ease of being able to to take control of it   is so low   that you should consider it. You know? And, like, you know, some something   like   like BISK too, right, where you don't have to deal with that KYC. Like, people are still going to the big exchanges because they have the convenience   of their buyers being so so,   so easy, you know, not having to worry about going through all these different payment methods.  

But, you know, you're really not gonna regret   have these regrets about using these, like, KYC places or keeping your stuff into custody until it's too late,   until   that information is used against you, until you sign into the exchange and they say you can't access   your coins until you go to your bank and they say you can't withdraw your money.   So, you know, it it's hard to   to relay   the the problems and the risk to people   if if they haven't experienced them firsthand. You know? Especially if they're in, like, a western country   that that hasn't undergone stuff like,   you know, like like haircuts to their deposits   or or had issues   where with the laws pertaining to Bitcoin have changed.  

So,   you know,   like I said, education is is a huge part of  

[00:41:24] Unknown:

it. And Yeah. I mean   yeah. Go ahead. To sum it up, I mean, I I think both, I think all of us agree here   that,   if if you have if you have your your Bitcoin with Coinbase or GBTC   or Robinhood,   or on any exchange, you know, ours the sponsor of of Tales from the Crypt,   Cash App,   it you don't own Bitcoin. You own an IOU,   and,   you'll learn very quickly in a bad situation that that Bitcoin is not yours.   And you're you're missing out because Bitcoin gives you the ability   to actually hold your own wealth and control your own wealth,   and to maintain your sovereignty, and and you should exert that that opt that option to you. You you should practice that option, and if you don't,   I that's fine. You know, that option is is is open to you, but,   I think you're being a chump if you do that.  

As as far as Coinbase is concerned,   I don't think it's really that much of a threat for Bitcoin. At the end of the day, does it really matter   if if Barry Silbert is self custodying versus Coinbase? It's probably the same threat model, right, with the US government? Oh, yeah. Talking about the government for sure. I mean, you think It's the same idea. Right? It's like, whatever. Stand up for you if uncle Sam comes knocking? No fucking way. So What's the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen there is, like, they I guess they could market sell those Bitcoin, but they'd be idiots.   Yep. Or I I guess it's a honeypot where you you could have, like, a single hacker could could   fuck them. But I I think at this point, they've learned their lesson. They're professionals.  

They probably   they probably have that cold storage down pretty well for everyone except the US government. Right? So, like, the US government could come in.  

[00:43:06] Unknown:

6102.  

[00:43:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 6102. I mean, they don't even have to 6102 it. Those coins are already 6102.  

[00:43:13] Unknown:

You you just need socialism.  

[00:43:15] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. Exactly. You could just tax the shit out of those coins if you wanted to, but they're already 6102. They're already basically controlled by government,   officials just via via a corporate partnership.  

[00:43:27] Unknown:

Yeah. They're they're IOUs.  

[00:43:29] Unknown:

On a positive note, we have,   Randy McMillan in the chat mentioned   that,   one of our representatives in the US government, Patrick McHenry,   has posted the Bitcoin white paper on his government website,   on mchenry.house.gov  

[00:43:51] Unknown:

/bitcoin.pdf. I would love to see Craig try to sue him.  

[00:43:55] Unknown:

Which is pretty unreal,   and I think   kind of is is a good time to bring up this conversation. Right? So so recently, we had fake so Satoshi,   CSW,   long time fraud,   go after our Bitcoin developers, specifically   bitcoin.org,   and bitcoincore.org,   and try and get them to remove,   the Bitcoin white paper. But I believe there's other attacks happening.   You know, bitcoincore.org   quickly removed the white paper from their website.   Bitcoin.org   decided to stay on the line.   And   since then, we've had a Streisand effect where all these people have come in   and posted the Bitcoin white paper on their respective websites,   ultimately, with Patrick McHenry here posting it on the house.gov   website just now.  

So so,   we have Hamish in the in the chat saying, please don't feed the trolls. Absolutely. I prefer not to talk about them, but it is,   you know, they they forced our hand here.   How do we feel about this? How do we feel about Bitcoin,   core.org   removing it from the website? How do we feel about the community response? Where do you guys stand on this?  

[00:45:11] Unknown:

So this is this is a tricky one.   You know, on one hand, it's not great to see   the core devs cave to a like this   after, you know, very little discussion too. I believe the pull request to remove it from the core   website got merged in after, you know, just 3 acts and probably about   2 hours of discussion and post.   So on one hand, that wasn't so encouraging to to see.   But on the other hand, you also don't want   these people that are doing important work as far as core goes,   you know, just going to court and and dealing with these idiots. You know, we have more important battles ahead of us. Like, we we need to get Schnorr and Taproot merged in, and I'd really like to see that happen this year.   So,   you know, it's it's a bit of a wash   there, but,   you know, it's just very encouraging to see the community   just all step up and, you know, host it.  

I think the funniest one was Umbrell   creating an app where you could host a copy of the white paper off your Umbrell note in their app store.   I thought that was great.   So, you know,   this community really thrives when we show our strength in numbers, and that was, like, a really positive and encouraging   thing to see.   So, yeah, I mean,   obviously,   this Greg guy is an absolute fraud, but, you know, we're we're still gonna have to deal   with his actions for a bit longer. But, you know, when we act together like we did and, you know, we saw countless people upload the white paper, you know, we're stronger and we're all better off for it.  

[00:46:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I I I think it's it's absolutely meaningless, you know, what these centralized websites   show. You know, bitcoin core org   is not the Bitcoin core code.   It doesn't matter what's on it until it is reliable source of the Bitcoin core binaries.   But even those, we should take from torrents, we should check the signatures, we should check the hashes.   Everyone   who is running a Bitcoin full node has a copy   with himself   there on the on the blockchain. So just run a node, you have the white paper with white paper there.   You know,   I I think   it's just,   it's exactly achieved what what he wanted to do, that he got publicity   and, you know, a bit of fun or something,   selling more BSV.  

I think it's it is meaningless.  

[00:47:49] Unknown:

What   so I would push back on meaningless. I think it's a perfect teaching moment.   I think I think this is why we're here. Right? This idea that if you have it on a centralized website,   if you have a centralized actor that you can pressure through legal bullshit, through all this other bullshit,   then you'll probably be successful.   The beauty of distributed networks, distributed systems   is that it's not hosted in one place,   that you can't spot it easily. Right?  

[00:48:17] Unknown:

Yeah. And and the fragile. Exactly. So, you know, from this,   what came to be is is the best which came to be is that, the proposal or the kind of block   entry of,   Vladimir van der van der Laan, the lead Bitcoin,   maintainer,   repository maintainer   that which is pushing for the decentralization of the of the hosting apparatus, you know, putting more emphasis on the torrents.   And, I mean, you know, he was looking into IPFS and things like that, which is just   torrents with the DNS.   And   that is actually good. We should do that even without   getting,   you know, pressure from these things. And we get this kind of small   pressure from this kind of, clown actor,   and then, you know, we are ready when there   are real threats.  



[00:49:09] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. Because   this is gonna be like a a fucking walk in the park compared to what we have coming to us in the years to come, I I think, at least from my opinion.   So, you know, if we can't handle this properly, we're gonna be, you know, ill equipped to deal with actual   big state actor threats.   And, you know Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. You brought up Vladimir, and, you know, I just wanna tip my hat to him. You know, he's done such an amazing job as the maintainer of CORE. And, you know, to see his, his blog, to see that he's he's stepping back, you know,   You know,   obviously, I I'm gonna be sad to see him go because he's given us so much, but it's ultimately gonna be for the good of the project to further,   work to decentralize   this thing and make it even more resilient.  

So   and on that note, I'd really like to see some of the other,   implementations   of Bitcoin get some more love. Like, let's give Bitcoin Knots some some love because you know? Yeah. And I like to pet a unicorn.   Knots. And and what's the other one?  

[00:50:17] Unknown:

The BTCD, you'd  

[00:50:19] Unknown:

go. Yeah. BD is another one.   There there's one other pretty big one. But   regardless, even   besides, like, the maintainers getting targeted,   it it's good to just have more diversity in the ecosystem,   in case, like, a bug comes up and, you know, ends up wiping off, like, a majority of the network. Because, like, think about it because,   like, most Bitcoin   nodes out there are running core, and,  

[00:50:44] Unknown:

I don't think that's a a good thing. Yeah. But, I mean, I don't think you can get to any kind of sizable.   I I don't I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know if that I think running older older versions of core kind of solves the same same threat model without   without the hopium involved with having, you know, multiple,   you know, well maintained clients. I I think I think a major argument here for   NIMS as developers is huge. You know, like, I have a   Yeah. Ton of respect for Vladimir and and everything he's done, and he's put in his time, and I respect him walking away. And, hopefully, you know, he comes back as a nim, or maybe he's already been contributing as a nim, and we don't even know.   And that gives you some some extra protection there. Right?  



[00:51:35] Unknown:

SMS.   If I'm not running core,   what do I run?   I can still run core. I I love core and all they've done, but, I've been poking around and messing with a little bit.   So   hope that I'll change it up a little bit with my nodes.   I really would like to see some of these,   prebuilt node solutions, like, like our Nodl or MyNode or Umbrell   or RaspiBlitz,   potentially,   you know, to offer up other options. But, you know, there's also  

[00:52:04] Unknown:

a cost in many maintaining that. So, you know, like that. Yes. But open up, you're heavy in Raspberry Blitz. What are your thoughts here? Why doesn't Raspberry Blitz not run core? Why does it run core? Horrible question.  

[00:52:17] Unknown:

Well, I mean, core is   the one which everything is tested with. So, you know, we we are we are building so many services on top. You know, we cannot just change pull the rug, you know, under,   that is that, you know, that is an impossible kind of, you know, development task. But what I'm was thinking, for example, to offer more lightning implementations, for example, because now we have like, you know, slightly I mean, sometimes they are diverging and then coming coming together again in terms of what functions are of are being offered.   You know, that would be an interesting thing to do, but,   I I don't think that, you know, it would make sense to to run anything else than core. I mean, what we are looking at is is   when when do we update to the latest, you know, because we need to make sure that everything is is   is working and we are on   20   for now. And then, you know,   does   0 21 come with the new lightning release?  

I mean, probably.   We'll see.   Yeah. I think course course course days. I mean, you know, there is   I mean, first of all, not it's quite close to core, isn't it? So why would I want   to go to a fork which is which has less kind of eyes on it.   And then, I mean, things people were like my 2 sets has   mentioned,   b coin and, like, etcd and things. I mean, we can do some   kind of, like, neutral filters were were   basically served by both knots and and,   BTCD   as I recall. But now they are in core as well, so, you know, we should just, go on with that.   I, yeah, I I feel to have one stable thing is is the best, but then I mean, I have run multiple nerds. I might look into, you know, having   1 or 2 different, like, you know, I do like what what,   the BitMEX Research Fort Monitor does in this,   topic that they are just running multiple versions and multiple implementation and see if there is any any divergence.  

But that's not for the, you know,   simple user, I think.  

[00:54:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   it's a lot of challenges in doing it and, you know, especially with all these,   you know, these prebuilt node solutions having so many different bits of software, like, not everything is gonna be compatible either. And, you like I said, the cost to maintain is is really big too.   So I don't know. May maybe   it's best for, you know, someone new coming up to build something instead of trying to bootstrap this to an existing implementation. Or  

[00:54:55] Unknown:

I mean,   I I think I look. I think that this idea of of running   old old core nodes   protects you from most of the risks that we're discussing here. Right? These risks that that maybe the with that has, like, other bugs in it. So, like, going back like that has a lot of problems. I I see it. Yeah. But so does I mean, it's not like there's no trade offs to having multiple clients, and we've seen this, you know,   with Ethereum and stuff. What what happens is is   is a big exchange just has to run all the clients,   and they have to run them all at the same time to see what's the issue. And if if there's a disagreement between the clients, there's no clear set,   you know, what what which way do we go from here? Like, what does what does Vitalik say? Which way should we proceed?  

But with with with Core, it's very simple. If if there's a if there's a fork in the future,   an accidental fork that has to do with something that was was, you know, pushed in   serostipitously,   like, something that we didn't know got put into a new core release,   we go with the older notes. Like, we follow the older notes. It's a very   straightforward   concept.   And then once if if you add this stuff, it's yeah. Can you guys stop trading? If you add this other stuff in there, it gets it gets all convoluted. It's like, what is the objective truth? I don't know if we solve anything. I think we, like, almost add more issues.   A big thing here is lack of auto updates, which is key in core that they don't allow auto updates because if you have someone able to push an auto update,   they could push malicious update.  

Yeah. With these node packages, that's not the case except for Raspberry Blitz and Ronin Dojo, which make you manually update, which a lot of people think is a negative.   You know, I would say is is a a massive benefit. Like, if you're a Minode user and you're doing,   auto updates, that's fine. Like, I understand it's a convenience thing for you or a normal user,   but but you're not protecting from this direct vector. This this threat model that we're talking about right here, you're just not part of that protection.  

[00:57:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think the update should be off by default, but if the user wants to toggle them on, they should be able to. But it's weird. Right? Because lightning, you wanna auto update or you wanna update quickly.  

[00:57:10] Unknown:

I don't know. Right?  

[00:57:12] Unknown:

Only right now because the network is so nascent, and, you know, we're prone to find all these bugs. But, you know, that could easily change down the line, hopefully, as we offspy a little bit more. But, like, things are moving at such like a break net   pace that, you know, if you're updating or if you're not updating, there's, like, a good chance you're gonna, like,   you know, hit hit an issue that,   you know, could lead to lost funds or, you know, incompatibility   as, you know, things are getting ironed out now. So it's probably best for you to keep that updated.  

[00:57:46] Unknown:

Anthony makes a good point, from bottle pay   that if we allow auto updates, then we might have COVID tracking implemented in core. That   is something that we need to be careful about.   Wow.   Feel for that.   Hi.  

[00:58:00] Unknown:

Yeah. My my my other worry   about the kind of note packaging and just kind of this kind of approach of everything,   but then we we we start to   base too many things on Docker, Microsoft Docker to say that,   which comes with packages   which are not even you cannot even check there.   So the unsigned packages which you just downloading   It's, like, worse than the Google Play Store or the or the Istory   or whatever Apple Store in on on the phone that you are just, you know, updating these apps. And it's it's a concern because, basically, every   like, speak speaking about the kind of, you know, hardware and, you know, what what we are   what we are afraid of when we are running these things.  

You know, apart from us,   with the rest of this, you know, everyone is just seem to take the easy route and, you know, just just use Docker. It's so easy. And it's basically it's not anymore it's not just a Bitcoin and lightning node. It's it's a it's a Bitcoin,   lightning and docker node.  

[00:59:04] Unknown:

Yeah. That that's the problem. I mean,   with docker images, it's possible to make the images a bit viable,   but the nature of the of the software and how it works, it's like most of the stuff that you're gonna pull down aren't gonna be verifiable. You're gonna be like most by and large pulling down binaries.   So, yeah, that that that's another risk in having something like Docker in your stack.  

[00:59:28] Unknown:

I mean,   the freak should be building from source. I know the freaks aren't building from source, and most of the freaks if you're not building from source, you should at least be verifying your PGP signatures.   Yeah. I know most of the freaks aren't doing that. You're you can there's a guide at usepgp.com,   if you wanna check that out.   Randy McMillan mentioned and and the reason for both of these things,   is because you wanna make sure and and this is what Open Arms and Evan were just talking about. You wanna make sure that   at least, if you can't read code, you wanna make sure that, like, when Evan   builds Zeus and he has a new update for Zeus Mhmm. Which is the lead maintainer for, you wanna make sure that that that   application file,   that installation file doesn't get compromised in between you and Evan. At least you know that, like, I'm trusting Evan and I don't want it to get changed. And that's what   the verification, the PGP verification does.  

I another thing that people don't really talk about, and Randy McMillan mentioned this   earlier in the chat,   seed torrent releases,   of each release ASAP.   That already happens,   and people don't really talk about this. A torrent by design   verifies the hash of the file that was uploaded.   So actually,   there's an argument to be made that for that average user who's not gonna verify their PGP signatures,   maybe they should download through torrents. Have you guys given any thought to this?  

[01:00:57] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's much harder to do, a man in the middle that way. Way. And as part of the protocol, you are verifying,   you know, the hashes of all the bits.   So, yeah, I I would say, generally speaking, there's a better you have better security   security assurances by downloading a torrent,   versus   downloading   a file directly,   at least if you're downloading the torrent from a verifiable source.   So that that's an interesting point.  

[01:01:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Right? Absolutely. We did I mean, the the rest of it is SD card images, for example, which we, you know, build from source, basically. I mean, we there are some binaries, but even those are verified automatically with BGP.   They are   distributed through torrents   first of all, and then there is a server where you can download from, but it's probably quicker to get the torrents if you are not the first one to download.   And, I mean, all all these things I mean, even if you are,   I mean,   even you could do that with with Zeus just to, you know, put put in a torrent link as well. I mean, you need to figure out how to see it properly   the first time or to how to how to put it in trackers, but then   it is a quite nice way to to download it. And it works on on mobiles as well very nicely. And then as you said,   Matt, it auto checks the the,   hash at least.  

So it it's a good step, which is quite difficult to do on the mobile otherwise.  

[01:02:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, as it stands now, I would just say try to verify the keys that you're pulling from multiple source.   For Zeus, we have one copy hosted on our website, and then we have another copy,   in our GitHub repo. So if you're doing this, try to cross reference. That's good practice.   I see a question from Hamish. He asked, is Umbrell   based on Docker?   Yes. It is.   It manages all its packages   with Docker, so be mindful of that.   Yeah. L and d just got reproducible Docker   builds,   or they're about   to release that, I believe, with   0.12   or 0.13,   I think.  

So,   check that out if you're using Docker in your stack.  

[01:03:15] Unknown:

Well, 61026102   says you have to find the torrent from somewhere. I mean, I I think, like, the average user can confirm a torrent   link or torrent   magnet URL.  

[01:03:28] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's best in the PGP send message. Easier easier than they can do PGP.  

[01:03:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, PGP, you gotta, like, you know,   it's like a harder workflow to just, like, verify stuff, generally speaking, or any  

[01:03:43] Unknown:

But the idea is to pub publish  

[01:03:45] Unknown:

a torrent magnet link in a PGP sign message. Right. Correct. And and that's not gonna verify that. We're talking about the user that's not verifying that. Okay. But even  

[01:03:55] Unknown:

if only, you know, one out of a 100 per 100 people verify that, it's it's already much better.   And it's just, you know, you you would just think why is why is all that code around it? You know, what does that do? So, you know, it just makes makes PGP natural.  

[01:04:10] Unknown:

And we saw that we saw that with Monero, actually.   I know there's some freaks that prefer that I just never discuss altcoins, but sometimes I bring it up when there's a learning experience.   With Monero, a lot of people said that,   a blind shot 256 hash doesn't help you.   You need to have a PGP signed hash.   But it turned out that,   getmonero.org   got compromised.   They changed the file, but the hash was hosted on a different web server and that server wasn't,   that server wasn't compromised. So you didn't actually even need to do a PGP verification.   If you just did a simple shot 256 hash of the file, you saw that it was the wrong   hash, and someone alerted,   the rest of the community within, like, 40 minutes. There was, like, a 1000 malicious downloads or something.  

Which I I count as a win. That's a win for open source software. Right? Yeah. Relatively speaking, that's a really quick turnaround, 40 minutes.  

[01:05:07] Unknown:

So it's good that they have that many eyes on it. You know, that might not happen on a project that gets useless.  

[01:05:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Where where is the magnet link from? Well, you know, I mean, in case of Twitter, obviously.   Yeah. Yes. I mean, you could do it on Twitter, but you could put an TXT file on,   on GitHub or GitLab or wherever you're hosting your repo. I mean, until it is is a p PGP signed, it is fine. And, you know, not everyone will,   verify but, you know, if I if I   I've came into   this situation couple of times that I was, like, downloading, you know, the first,   release candidate release candidate images from, like, or binaries from LND and then, you know, I found out that well, guys this is, you know, it's not   I found who signed it but this wasn't the one   developer who was, written on the website and then, you know, went to the Slack and said, well, look, this is not working out but,   or your your key has expired and things like that. And, you know, I I knew that at   least   I   checked.  

Okay. There's magnet link. Thank you.   I appreciate that. So just to be clear everything there. Yeah. You just take it in in on Windows, the Qbit torrent, q QB,   I think. Yeah. QBIT   torrent   is an open source   torrent client, which you should download   on Windows.   And then, I mean, you have, like, transmission on Linux   and   Mac. Someone else will,   say what to use. And you just paste this link as it is   into the   torrent window, and it's done. That's how you download download things. As you can see, it does  

[01:06:54] Unknown:

have the info which you need. It just needs this little tech tool. Like, Bitcoiners don't give enough credit to torrents. Like,  

[01:07:01] Unknown:

Torrents the torrent technology is in Bitcoin.  

[01:07:06] Unknown:

Mhmm. But it's it's torrents are badass. Like, do we agree the torrents are badass? Oh, hell yeah. I mean, it's, like, only just because  

[01:07:13] Unknown:

that, of of BitTorrent   really that, like, these streaming services really had to come to to prominence and get good, you know? Like, I don't think we'd see Spotify as as soon as we saw it if it wasn't for something like BitTorrent   really putting the pressure on the industry.   So, you know, shout out to, to BitTorrent. It's incredible technology, and you should still use it today.  

[01:07:33] Unknown:

Yeah. And 6102, yes, we should verify. So this magnet link should be   4 times bigger wall of text   within a GPG signature.   And then   the the magnet bit, you should copy paste into your, torrent client. Yeah. That's what that's what that's where we got to. You know?  

[01:07:54] Unknown:

Yeah. My my takeaway is unless you have a verified source of truth with, like, a a PGP key that you've already verified, like, you know Which has been signed by others. Right? Yeah. That's signed by others or or you know through, you know, some other   medium that it's legit. Right?   Then, you know, don't trust any single   source as a source of truth. You know, that's what this whole Bitcoin thing is all about. Like, no one entity   should be   should be trusted. Like, you should be able you should have split up that trust across multiple parties and verify through multiple different sources,   like sources that, you know, aren't connected to each other. And that's what this thing is all about.  



[01:08:33] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I feel like 61 or 2 stopping our friends if we don't make it clear that everyone should just learn how to use,   GPG   and, verify all of their   signatures   for software they download. And if your developer is not providing   signed downloads,   shame on them. Shame them publicly. Shame them loudly. Don't use the software.   Okay. Next subject. Let's fucking go.   Encryption.   End to end encryption. Reduced knowledge   of what is going on by your users.   We are seeing now signal is hitting,   you know well, really, people should use GPG, but they're not   once again.  

The the real game changer is when you provide them easy UX,   with with that same cryptographic guarantees, which is what signal attempts to do. Now is there a trust model there? Yes. Have we discussed the trust model last episode? Yes. So I don't wanna really discuss the trust model that much.   Sure. We are trusting signal. We are trusting the app stores that provide you the package.   I wanna talk about a bigger,   you know, a bigger macro issue   with the idea of encrypted messengers, which is this idea that,   and we we saw an article come out today, I think, in TechCrunch.  

New York Times did a a FUD piece on it. Alex Gladstein did the opposite in Time Magazine.   This idea that   a user of signal, that signal can't   police their users, they don't know what their users are doing, they don't know who their users are, so they can't stop criminals from using signal.   And and and we're gonna see this argument pop its head up more and more. We saw it in encryption wars that basically have never ended and continue to this day. The previous attorney general for the United States was was just talking about trying to end around encryption. They they talk about it like they're not trying to ban encryption, but as soon as you try and add backdoors,   try and add this visibility, you're doing it.  

You know, where   I I I I think an interesting,   interesting metaphor here   is   is cars.   I I don't know. People might think I'm crazy.   Vehicles.   We are driving these 2 ton vehicles, 1 ton vehicles down the road, and people are   for a crime or not. But we don't tell people that they can't use cars, that they're, like, cars cannot be sold.   We trust them that they're gonna use that car in good faith. And if they don't, then we go at them, you know, through basic police work, good old fashioned police work and and, you know, legal repercussions.   I don't see a difference there with encryption, but I know that lawmakers do. So so   I'm curious,   you know, do do you guys think we're gonna see more of this? We're gonna see, like, terrorists use encryption, terrorists use Bitcoin,   you know,   what is your best argument   for why   something like signals should be protected? Why why people should be able to have   encrypted end to end speech where where the provider doesn't know what's going on. They have no idea.  



[01:11:53] Unknown:

This is just comes down to the need of privacy. I always ask people why they have a a door on their toilets.   You   know?  

[01:12:05] Unknown:

Yeah.   Even the guys that are running these spy agencies,   right, they still have   lines on their windows.   Do they do they have anything to hide?  

[01:12:19] Unknown:

Right. But I don't think these arguments are very   you know, like, I don't think I think a regulator is gonna laugh at my car's argue if you know, metaphor. I I think,   we have Rad Vladdy in the comments saying, what about the shoe companies? I mean, every terrorist probably wore sneakers. I mean, some probably wore boots.  

[01:12:37] Unknown:

You can KYC shoes and cars, definitely.  

[01:12:40] Unknown:

Right? You're gonna KYC them and try and thought police them ahead of time. It's not practical.   I don't think that's a effective argument, you know. My my co   host, Tales from the Crypt, Marty Bent, you know, he he constantly hits me with the, do we live in a free country? Do we do this, or do we do not? Do we do that?   And and to me, these arguments always come down to that scorpion   that scorpion,   frog metaphor.   Where, like, the frog is bringing the scorpion across the water, the scorpion pros promises him he's not gonna sting him, and the frog's, like, well, if he stings me, then it hurts both of us. And then it stings him anyway. Right? And that's the same idea with encryption. Like, if if we make it hard for honest Americans, honest law abiding citizens, I'm not gonna keep this America focused because open arms isn't America, you know, just an average law abiding citizen can't protect their own privacy.   We are dooming this country. We we are hurting our own citizens.  

I don't think they care. And I think that's where open source comes in. I think the idea of open source is that if we have like a signal,   that gets banned,   like, at least you can still use PGP. Right? At least you can still use some random open source APK.  

[01:13:52] Unknown:

Yeah. For sure. So so it really comes down for me, it comes down to 2 parts. It's like, okay.   Economically, right?   Like, yeah. Sure. These things like, you know, shoes and cars and planes   and guns and   encryption can all be used for bad things. But, you know, if you were to somehow be able to wave a magic wand and make them go away, we're all gonna be poor off for it because the economic   possibilities   are reduced so much. I mean, think about it. Like, encryption is not just used for our private signal messages or for Bitcoin transactions.   They're used, when we log into our bank accounts, when we make our transactions with our credit cards on Amazon,   everywhere when we will sign into our systems for work. Like, if you get rid of encryption, like, these things are, like,   could hardly function anymore.  

And then furthermore,   like, my other argument would be like the practicality.   You can't, and that by and large because of open source   and because of, you know, the computing revolution and the accessibility that we have with all these processors   to to whip stuff up, and you use   math to, you know,   verify our software downloads or send encrypted messages or use Bitcoin.   You know? Like, at the end of the day, you're not gonna be able to ban it one way or the other. Right? Like, okay. Maybe the US government puts the clamp down and, you know, you can't use GitHub anymore   or, you know, they put pressure on the ISPs to start censoring stuff.  

We're gonna route around that shit.   The Internet was built to route around all of this bullshit, and these centralized hubs that can be censored   are anomalies in the whole system.   And, you   know, you can write whatever piece of bill legislation which with whatever threat of violence or imprisonment behind   it. But the toothpaste is out of the tube. You can't stop this anymore. So why waste our valuable time, right, which is really the most scarce thing we have   debating this? It's over. It's over the debate   Because if someone really wants to use this tech,   they're gonna be able to now.  



[01:16:11] Unknown:

Yeah. A 100% agree. You just, I mean, in the digital world, the problem is   which is getting more apparent that they can stop you to move physically.   But, you know, in the   well,   it it and also it's always a fight. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not over because they're trying always to push back and then,   you know, you need to   find new ways to route around like, you know, ISPs are centralized so you need mesh networks or you need satellites   or,   you know, your hardware manufacturers manufacturers are compromised. So you need open source hardware. You need to   be able   to make your hardware at home at some point. You know? Grow it out of  

[01:16:53] Unknown:

mushrooms.   Yeah. And and I I think if, like, you think it's possible for this monolithic entity in in the form of the state to be able to find a way to clamp down on this stuff,   then that's, like, an inherently pessimistic view against   humanity because I think that   individuals   and   their ingenuity   is is unmatched. You know?   Whatever   arbitrary thing something someone dictates from the state, like,   some new form you're gonna incentivize someone or a group of people to work on something to to work around it, and someone's gonna come up with a new solution   to route around your arbitrary   dictate. So,   you know,  

[01:17:39] Unknown:

do so at your own peril. My dog just got fired up by your   by your speech. I,   yeah. Look. I mean, I 100% agree. I I think the cat's out of the I like the toothpaste   out of the tube. That just sounds you know, like, cats shouldn't be in bags. So when the cat's out of the bag, like, I'm proud of the cat. Cat back into a bag, but You are walking into the bathroom, and the the toothpaste is outside of the tube. Like, what the fuck's going on? I don't know. Yes. This is it's no good. It seems disturbing to me.   But, yeah, I I I do think, like, when you talk about tools that empower individuals that that help,   strengthen individuals and and   create   empowerment,   to argue against them becomes immediately obvious. Like, one side,   wants free choice, wants people to have the option,   and and the other side is just straight up going for bans. And it's a very weird dichotomy, and I think it becomes very obvious to the average individual,   when presented those two situations. Like, you can have,   by all means, someone can argue the efficacy   of   of of our lifeboats and whether or not our lifeboats will hold water and and and protect us. But to to tell us that that lifeboat usage should be banned completely,   from a sinking ship is, like, absolute,   you know, ridiculousness. And I I think most people see through that.  

I'll tell you one thing. The criminals definitely see through it. The criminals are gonna use all this shit no matter what. So any any kind of restrictions you put in on an individual empowering tools, you're just hurting that that average law abiding person who doesn't wanna doesn't want to ruffle any feathers.   Yep.  

[01:19:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Yes. They say they say in the chat that the rules   are, like, ban is on does only work on good people. Bad people don't care about this.   So it is inherently   doesn't serve its purpose.  

[01:19:43] Unknown:

Understand.   And at this point, like,   come on. Are you gonna honestly tell me that the the   malicious   uses of it outweigh, like, the legitimate uses of numbers? Like, no way. Whether it comes to encrypted messaging   or,   Bitcoin, like, that's definitely not the case. We're by and large using it for legal things.  

[01:20:06] Unknown:

So we've been discussing open hardware, open software.   A big pain point that we've seen in our daily lives is   most people's main computer   is their phone,   and their phone is usually either operated by a Google operating system or an Apple operating system,   who they have to trust wholeheartedly,   with both their privacy and their security.   There's a ton of closed source blobs in there.   Yep. What's really cool is   what's called my eye recently is GrapheneOS,   which allows you to install a d Google version of Android that's privacy focused   on, ironically enough, Google hardware,   which is more open hardware that has secure element in it, so that's why they target   it, ironically enough. But, ultimately, what we wanna see is open hardware.  

Before we get to the open hardware   conversation, I just wanted to mention real quickly here   that Graphene has two things that I think are really game changing in terms of open software. I mean, I have a guide on tftc.tv   on how to install it, and I recommend people do. It's easier and more accessible than they think it is. But my guide is about to be obsolete.   They have   a Chromium based version   of the installer, so you don't need fast boot.   And you can just do it all from a browser. And, actually, you can do it from another Graphene phone,   which is a game changer. If you just have a USB c cable, you can install Graphene on a Pixel from another Pixel that has Graphene on it. No computer necessary.  

They also have this verification method where you can verify instead of PGP signatures,   you can verify with a QR code from another Android phone. It doesn't actually even have to be a Graphene phone. So you can you can have a second source of truth from another Android phone, ideally a Graphene phone, but it doesn't have to be a Graphene phone. Those two things combined, I think, are really cool ideas   in terms of trying to make open source software,   specifically, provable and verifiable software,   more accessible for the average user. So I'd like to see more of that.   I know both of you guys are are pretty bullish   Graphene. 6102 is asking us Calyxt OS versus Graphene versus Copperhead. Do you guys have any opinions here? Yeah. I'm running I'm running Calyxt  

[01:22:26] Unknown:

as my day to day now. Managed to to switch over,   from actual Google   and   Graphene I have as well, but I didn't it didn't manage to stick because   for to to sometimes literally navigate in the field life, you know, I I I need the I need the Google services,   which is available   in Calix OS in the form of an open source alternative, which is called Micro g.   So you can have your notifications. You can have your,   all the apps which are which would be dependent on those kind of things. And still the information which is shared to Google, if necessary, it's it's controlled   and stripped to the absolute minimum,   and you can stop it and control it from by   app by app   and see what is being being shared.  

Also, I mean,   the main reason for these all these o s is to use   pixels   to start with because the boot boot loader   that's the main phone kind of brand, which does allow allow the bootloader to be relocked.   Mhmm. Other otherwise, you can install open source Android without Google called,   now it's called Lineage OS or AOS p Android on basically any Android phone. But you cannot reload the bootloader because those most of the phones don't allow us. There is, like, an exception which is called the the it's in Chinese   called Xiaomi   a a 5 m m 2, which is an old phone. It costs, like, less than a 100 USD.  

You can only   probably I mean, you should you should be able to buy it new as well. That's might be 200, but it's it's, you know, there's a huge used market. So it's it's like, you know, it's very cheap thing to have. And then   it it is like more tricky to put the Calix OS on it, but, that that's what I was I was,   playing with and it's it's working great. Right. And also  

[01:24:24] Unknown:

Let's unpack for the freaks why,  

[01:24:26] Unknown:

we wanna lock the bootloader. Yes. Exactly. So so the main thing is that on even on that, the bootloader can be locked. So if I lose the phone, then someone with a minimal knowledge to be able to attach, like, a micro USB,   to their laptop,   cannot   open   the inside. So it doesn't,   it's not not not able to read the contents of the of the of the phone, which is just a minimum security. So what you do when you when, you know, someone   would,   well, let's assume not steal, but find a phone, you know, and there is no way to return it to the to the previous owner, but you either take it to the to the police station, which I wouldn't. But you would you you would you would want to use it or sell it then,   there is no other way just to reset it.  

Except if the bootloader is unlocked   or   broken or whatever,   where it rooted, that's the Android lingo.   The g r broken is the is the iOS lingo. Right?   Yeah. So the phone is rooted and the the,   bootloader is open, then without   resetting the phone, you can change the the,   software on it. And with that, you can   access all the data on it. So anything which is not encrypted then with a different key is open to the   to the prime guys, whether it be a banking application, your notes, your contacts, or  

[01:25:51] Unknown:

whatever. Yeah. For that's called an evil mate attack. So  

[01:25:56] Unknown:

you don't valid.  

[01:25:58] Unknown:

Or or just a simple steal. If someone has if someone has physical access to your device and your bootloader is not locked, they can run any arbitrary software that code they wanna run. Yeah. So so if if you if   if they they can end around your PIN or whatever kind of password you have on there. Now if if you actually have it encrypted,   then they're you're still protected. They have to brute force your encryption password,   but, presumably, they can brute it easier if your bootloader is not locked. So ideally, in terms of physical security on your phone, you want your bootloader to be locked with both Kallix.   With all 3 of the of the questions, Kallix, Graphene, and Copperhead, you can lock your bootloader if you use   Pixel phones. I think,   what Open Arms is saying is there's a random   yao Xiaomi phone,   She only phone. You know, the phone. Yeah. X I a m o. Yeah. I don't know how to pronounce their hardware.  

That that allows you to lock the bootloader, but, of course,   then you're just exchanging, you know, Chinese backdoored hardware,   for US backdoored hardware. Because I'm the opposite. What? It's all made in China.   Alright. Everything's made well, not Samsung makes a lot of their shit in Vietnam. I don't know. Really? Interesting.   Does that help?   But,   yeah. So so Kallax is interesting to me. I think the main thing that's interesting that people don't realize is that eSIMs are allowed.   Yeah. And and we highlighted a freak run business, silent.link,   last last week, and I guess we're highlighting it again this week, that allows you to buy an eSIM with be Bitcoin with no KYC.  

It's all out of stock there. Yeah. Which is dope. I I spoke to our boy, Khitan, who did it on Calyx, said it works fantastic. Now he has a British number.   And,   yeah. So you can't do that with Graphene. So that's the major benefit.   Obviously, the second major benefit is is is that you have Google services, but, you know, someone who uses Graphene would say that's a feature, not a bug. So, basically, if you wanna go super hardcore, use Graphene. If you don't,   use Kallix.   Copperhead   was like a fight with,   with the graph the the founders of Graphene,   it was   called Android hardened hardened Android, something to that effect, and they they got into an argument,   and they split up. So Copperhead is the for profit project, and Graphene is the free open source,   version.  

So Copperhead, you have to actually buy the phone with Copperhead already on,   and there's some DRM elements to it. So I Yeah.   Am am strictly either Graphene or Calix, currently running Graphene. Consider either. They're both major improvements over,   just running like a stock Android or Apple phone. But, ultimately, what we want to see is open hardware. So let's get to open hardware.  

[01:28:50] Unknown:

What's the goal here? What are we looking at? What? Real quick. A freak ask, is there an equivalent for all this for Apple Devices?  

[01:28:58] Unknown:

No. Just   no. Get a pick get a cheap Pixel and install   install Graphene or Kallax on it. There we go. On on   on an iPhone, you can't even install an application   separate from the App Store.   So when they decided, like, I I would never use Parler,   but when they decided that Parler wasn't allowed for iPhone users, you couldn't use it anymore.   At least even if you even if you use, like, completely Google, Android,   and you're just completely,   letting Google spy on whatever you want to let them spy on, whatever they wanna spy on, and you're just trusting them a 100%, they let you install Parler APK separate. Right? They let you when we had Bitcoin wallets banned on iPhone, you just couldn't install a Bitcoin wallet. Like, tomorrow, iPhone, Apple could tell you no.  

[01:29:46] Unknown:

Oh, here's the thing. Here's the real kicker, Matt. By default, in the iOS settings,   if   Apple chooses to   delete the app from their App Store, it will also delete the app from your phone, which is some real George Orwell 1984 shit. There is a setting to turn that off,   but by default, it is on. So if you guys are using any apps you think might get banned, I don't know, maybe Telegram,   they're trying to target that pretty heavily, you might wanna turn that setting off.  

[01:30:17] Unknown:

Yeah. What what do you think yeah. That that's the only reason I'm not using fully noted because,  

[01:30:23] Unknown:

it only works on iOS. Right? Yeah. I mean, it looks like so nice as far as the features go, but, yeah, not an iOS user. I'm sure other people use it. It sounds great.  

[01:30:36] Unknown:

So open hardware. Let's discuss open hardware. Yes. Let's get into it.   Is this is this me is this me petting unicorns again, or, like, is this something we can see   in reality anytime soon?  

[01:30:49] Unknown:

It depends on your time frame, but   I think I hope we   we approach it and then more products come out. Not Nam's just showing us one before the show. Nam, do you wanna talk about that one?  

[01:31:00] Unknown:

Yeah. So so this is this has been,   yeah,   advertised on on or I've came across it on on Twitter. It's called a bigger board, which is,   basically, there is so   we have, like, Intel manufacturing CPUs. We have,   AMD manufacturing CPUs, and then now ARM is coming up a lot, which is like in older as replies and older phones as well.   And then there is like a 4th   reasonably popular CPU architecture   coming to life. So popular that Bitcoin Core has a build for it.   And it runs Linux,   which is the operating system you want to use if you want to have any kind of reliability or verifiability.   And it is called a big o big o 5 or big o v, I think. It's probably   yeah. Big o v.  

Big o board dot org   slashbigov is the is the website. You can register interest. Basically, it's a low cost board, which is, based on this open   architecture open CPU architecture called RISC 5 or RISC v. I'm not I'm not even sure.   And it will be in the ballpark of   100   USD. It has 4 gigabytes of RAM   and 2   2 cores of 1 gigahertz pro processor, which means that you can actually run Linux on it.   I think it would be,   like, comparable to, like, a Raspberry Pi 3, probably.   Certainly, we'd be able to well, not certainly, but but I I strongly hope that it will be able to run at least Bisco and Core. If you're lucky, it   could take, like, c lightning as well.  

And, you know, looking forward to try it because this is the first accessible price   board which is based on this kind of   architecture,   which is which   is much more verifiable than than any other   chip manufacturers or first architecture users.   Yeah. That's a big thing, I think. But, it will take a couple of months to come   into   reality. It will be the 1st batches   will be coming in April, and then widely available from September.   Did did we have the link yet?   Because it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's up. It's up. So, yeah, check it out to register interest. You need to fill out a Google form.   They are not accepting Bitcoin, but it is proper open source hardware.  



[01:33:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Looks sick.   Nice. And and we got the link about how to prevent apps from being deleted,   in the chat. I mean, from iPhone and iPad in the chat. I also tweeted it if anyone's interested in that.   But, yeah, the b cord looks sick. I think I'm gonna put in an order for that.   You know, it's definitely a step up from the ARM chips that we have on, let's say, the Raspberry   Pi and, the ROC 64.   You know, it's just, like, good to have a chip architecture that that's open. It's it's not completely foolproof, you know, that there there's,   you know, places where, you know, bad stuff could lie, but having the architect   architecture of the chip itself be open is is incredible. And, you know, we don't really have another equivalent for that,   other than the open power systems, but those are, like, fully fledged   computers, and they're very expensive. They're so expensive.  

Yeah. And, you know, it's really hard to get things running on there too.   And,   you know, it's just not on a single board computer like this thing is. So this is, like,   a really encouraging sign, that things are going in the right direction, and hopefully, we see more products like this as time goes on. I mean, so do you guys think like, do you think, like, realistically  

[01:34:50] Unknown:

that, like, a Raspberry Pi like, these Raspberry Pi nodes,   the proliferation of them is a risk to the network?   Or is this a purely,   you know, I I I feel like in our threat models, we tend to go a little bit   and we should. We should be adversarial about it, But is it really a practical issue for most people? Is it a practical issue for Bitcoiners?  

[01:35:14] Unknown:

It would be a a bit of a pain if it actually went down, but I don't think it actually risks the the network   long term. I think it'd be, like, a really bad day for us, but I I think we would,   ride around that issue.   So it's, like, you know, calls into question whether   it'd be even worse trying to coordinate an attack like this. It would,   know, it would be quite costly to to figure out how to execute it   and and get it done, and then at what cost, you know, like, points   the wrong chain for a little bit. You know, it'd have to be, like, part of some   crazy scheme hitting one entity or but,   yeah, long term, I don't I don't really think it's that big an issue. It's something to be mindful of and definitely something   to to consider as as these new products are coming on the market.  



[01:36:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's it's rather it's it's not a systemic risk. Like, you know, like, there would be no, like, remote access en masse because all the network chips are compromised.   But it's an individual risk. So   don't   use a Raspberry   Pi for instead of a hardware wallet. Right? Because it that is not it is not not verifiable and it needs, especially so out of all the single board computers, the Raspberry Pi is   slightly worse because it needs a a binary blob   flashed onto   the SD card or well, it's it's mostly or even the SSD that's boost from that to be able to work, which   which runs an underlying operating system like the BIOS or UEFI   UEFI on the Intel machines   and which can even   tell or simulate things for the Linux running on top. So   if   someone   highly technically able takes a machine like this to a lab, then they would be definitely able to extract any kind of thing stored on it, run on it, or, you know, it's it's not a secured environment to that extent. Like, you cannot compare it to a cold card, for example. Right? Or,   even if it's air gapped.  



[01:37:31] Unknown:

But Well, that's when we air gap things. Right? When we air gap things, it's like the least you can do. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So so for example, I'm I'm looking forward to a project of, of,  

[01:37:42] Unknown:

well, mine together with with other people, with with the RespBlitz and and with the,   with a friend of mine who we manufacture these these metal boxes for RespBlitz. But we do do a box for the quote card which is there will be there to house the quote card attached to the Raspberry Pi running a full node   and you just delegate   the signing   and the key storage to the actual quote card in well, not air gap, but in a in a well separated fashion and also running c k bunker, which you might be   might be aware of,   which is basically   the codecard   make 3 in a HSM mode, in a hardware security module mode, where you can just throw it on,   throw a PSVT on it and   give it predefined rules or verify   on the fly by pressing buttons,   to sign   the transaction, the pre signed Bitcoin transaction   on the hardware wallet on the code card,   instead of having it signed on the   on the,   Raspberry Pi Nord itself. So, you know, basically removing that trust issue   and placing it on the court card   in terms of, you know, in terms of,   risking funds   to that.  

And   so and there are many softwares which will be,   able to   to so there's lots of development which is pointing to this direction that this can be realistically done   more and more easier, like LND   and like c lightning working with presigned   Bitcoin transactions and being able to delegate the signing outside from their hot wallets running.   And also,   join markets has a huge support in this.   I think the next major release will have things like, being able to pass   a pre,   constructed PSBT   to the Python script, which is a joint market, and   make it sign. And then the other way as well that it can construct the PSVT, which you can then sign externally so your keys won't be stored   inside the potentially,   backdoors or compromised   Raspberry Pi or other kind of Windows machine or whatever. But you can you can take it and you can air gap sign it if you want on a in a quote card, for example.  

Yeah. So Yeah. You just you just need   to take these things where where where they belong. So you are not running production   environment   on a Raspberry Pi, and you are not making it widely available for the Internet either.   And that's not what that is not what's happening with these home node projects.  

[01:40:34] Unknown:

So Ultimate ultimately, right, whether it's open source hardware, whether everyone's whether it's open hardware or open software, like, what we wanna see is we wanna see it be   easy enough   to be to to be verified   Mhmm.   By advanced users at least.   You you wanna be in a situation where where it's provable and verifiable, the claims that are made.   We we have   a a freak in the comments that's going by some person.   Could be anyone. No one knows who it is.   Asking me because I've recommended in the past Michael Basel for privacy,   and and he says he prefers iPhones. Right? And and and this is where we go back to that same that same trade off balance,   where, like, iPhones might be a more   private option for 90%   of people,   but it's a custodial private option. You're you're there's custodial privacy. In Bitcoin, we like to talk about,   custodial   ownership of coins.  

You also have custodial privacy where you're trusting an entity with your privacy.   Apple says they care about our privacy. They say they prioritize it. There's no way for us to prove it. There's no way for us to verify it. Even an advanced user can't do that.   So you you end up in a trusted relationship,   and that can help   maybe the average user increase their their situation. I mean, we see it with with ledger hardware wallets, if if you wanna talk about in the Bitcoin space. Mhmm.   Maybe that's, you know, better for for 90% of people, the overwhelming majority of people. But at the end of the day, if you really want a trust minimized option, you need to be able to prove it and verify it yourself or at least have an advanced user do that. So we wanna see we have software that you can do that with.   That's what the open source software movement is, and we don't have we don't really have hardware that you can do that with yet.  

So, ideally, what we wanna see is hardware where you're able to do that. Short of that,   as OpenAM said, we do like to air gap things,   which is you just don't connect it to the Internet. So we had Randy McMillan in the comments mention routers.   Routers are a fucking mess.  

[01:42:46] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:42:48] Unknown:

The average user is using a router that is fucking completely closed source and supplied by their monopoly Internet service provider that are assholes. They are like the worst companies that we ever interact with. You know, you got like your fucking gas provider, your electric provider, and your fucking cable company, and they're all fucking horrible.   And they provide you a router that can see all of your Internet traffic.   Everything you fucking do on the Internet.   So I mean, we can talk about, you know, trying to push for more open hardware in that respect. But, ultimately,   if you're talking about securing funds, securing information, you just keep it offline. You just don't put it online to begin with.  

And that that's what cold storage the concept behind cold storage is all about. You can have, like, the most insecure setup, but if you never put it online,   at least that the malicious individual needs to come into your your your your home or your office or whatever and and have physical access   to to compromise you. We do not have that liberty with Lightning. I see someone mentioning it in here.   Lightning is, by default, is a hot wallet. Right?  

[01:43:50] Unknown:

Well, it is   a scale. Right? So there are, like, 6 different keys in a in an l in the   wallet, actually. And, I mean, the main two things the 2 main things. I mean, we can differentiate 3 at least very easily. That one key, which is completely different,   which is   controls the on chain wallet. You don't need to use that at all. You can fund   your lightning   channels from an outs from the outside, and it's very, very, very, very,   it's not difficult. It's quite easy, actually, but it's very important because you have full coin control and you don't get   into any any issues with the, you know, chain surveillance and   tracking the,   peeling chain, etcetera, which has been mentioned in the privacy article recently.  

So those those are keys which you can already decouple and even air gap.   There are keys which are required to open and close channels.   Those are only needed occasionally.   So I mean if the software would,   support it and I'm sure it will   as it being developed, those can be   taken offline after they have been online.   But the keys which are actually signing the   transactions, if you are running a routing note, those needs to be hot because otherwise, you know, you wouldn't wouldn't be able to to go,   you wouldn't be able to forward payments. But they don't need to be able   to pay out. So there could be there are different permissions needed to   reduce your the balance on your note or to forward a payment which which only,   I mean, worst case, the balance stays the same but usually increases with the fees earned.  

Yeah. That's that's that's too light in what I saw. There there could be, you know, plenty of developments there.   There will be.  

[01:45:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I I know know the Lightning Labs guys are working on some solutions to   try to try to have some sort of hybrid model wallet and and not have so many phones hot. So we'll see how that plays out. It's gonna be very interesting. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement there. Oh my god. So much fucking nuance. But, anyway, we're making progress. Right?   Yeah, man. It's it's like, you know, on Bitcoin, everything moves really slow. Right? And, you know, we we try not to break anything. And, lightning is the opposite. Like, things are moving   at, like, a 1000000 miles an hour. So it's gonna be like that for a while longer until, this thing really starts to slow down and ossify.  

But there's a benefit to that. You know? We could keep stuff on the first layer,   you know,   nice and,   not breaking, which is great.  

[01:46:40] Unknown:

So, we have a new section of,   the show,   titled questions from 6102.   And he sends he sends questions ahead of time like he just dropped a question in. We're not gonna get to Watchtower so quickly.   I didn't think he was gonna be in the comments, so he actually sent these questions ahead of time. So the first question is,   what do they what do you guys see for the future of joint market?   Will it slowly grow in popularity as tools improve or remain a more niche tool? We'll start with OpenOps because,   he's kind of dedicated himself to to making the UX easier for join market.  

[01:47:17] Unknown:

Well, yes. Because I love to use it, and it's it's such a versatile tool that, you know, I cannot recommend it enough.   It it comes,   you know, it comes with a short a steep but short learning curve. But after you have mastered it, you have you have a wallet which gives you privacy   and gives you perfect,   coin control, and you can construct the   any transactions you like. You can use page join. You can use   coin joins,   and you can pay with coin join and   well, a lot lot lot of other things which are hidden in the in the scripts.   So the future I mean, the future is   that it is continued to be developed since   6 years now, and there is no stop in the development. Like, you know, if you look back how was it 5 years ago, it is absolutely not the same how it how it is now. And also it's just been changed   to be to default to   native Segwit addresses. So you have some,   not only you have some fee savings there, but now it is much easier to use it as the external wallet for   your lightning node because   that's that's what is most useful in it. And that's why I'm that's why I'm trying to kind of   explain or or I will definitely need to write this up in in more detail how how to do it. But you have a selection of different size of coins, different size UTXOs in your joint market wallet, which is which are, like, individually coin joined to a to a different level. And you can   pick and choose 1 and just open,   a lightning   channel from that.  

And   the drone market developers,   like especially VoxLink, who is the most,   kind of active, who is coordinating the project currently,   is is quite quite interested in the in that direction as well.   To,   you know, use the audit use audit tools available to make make PageOn more inter,   compatible with other implementations   and also,   you know, pull enlightening as much as possible. There is also the work with with working with PSBTs,   which allows   either external signing of   transactions which are   constructed by joint markets or the other way around   to have joint market signed transactions which are constructed outside.  

And then there is   in terms of what would really be a game changer is that there is an API in the works as well. I mean, it is it is a lot of work and it's structural changes.   Right? For and but what would that mean is that you could build,   other applications on top, which would just   call into   the draw market API running on your node   and you   could,   you know, coin join on the fly or use it as in a mobile wallet, etcetera. I mean, that is you know, it it it it takes a lot of time and there is plenty of plenty of things which are which are being done. Will it be niche? I think,   you know, Vita before Snow White and Taproot getting widely accepted   and we get   a huge take up in adoption,   I don't   see   coin joints   to be   viable   and to be available for everyone because it just it will be just getting too expensive.  

So   it will be always a niche.   And that's why a lot of,   so these tech techniques which are hidden and not appearing as, like, huge transactions on the blockchain are very important,   which can be   pay joins, can be coin swaps, can be,   lightning general opens and closes and submarine swaps and things like that are   much more important because they are also,   breaking the common owner ownership hero heuristic, which we are again we we are going against,   but they are not,   wasting,   block space basically.   So,   yeah, I see joint market being you know staying very versatile and you know   being a niche as well, but then it is finding its, you know, place and we'll continue to do the thing. Yeah. Evan, you wouldn't be my boy if you didn't have a strong opinion here.  



[01:52:01] Unknown:

Hit us with it.  

[01:52:02] Unknown:

I think,   you know, it's it's very great to see the UI become more usable. Like, I real I love what you guys have done with Rash Fi blips.   But I really don't see we're gonna think we're gonna see a lot of increased usage,   on   on the market unless   there's, like, someone creates some sort of, like, custodial middleman service for this thing where they could eat some of the fees by doing it in bulk   and, you know, provide, like, some sort of interface where, you know, you could just, like, deposit your coins on there. And and you don't have to go through the complexities of,   you know, just running your own node and connecting it to join market like that.  

You know, however, you know, hopefully, people are able to iterate on the software that exists today and make, you know, more usable   user friendly solutions.   But, you know, it's really an uphill battle. I mean,   we're quite fortunate to have the solutions that we have right now. This wasn't the same story as it was you've been, like, you know, a couple years ago.   And,   you know, as far as CoinJoin go, I'm really excited   for people to keep cranking out on JoinMarket, for people that keep cranking out on Samurai and Whirlpool, which is, you know, become a really solid solution.   And I'm really excited to see, what the Wasabi guys do as far as not even not even just their new interface,   but their new implementation. And Wabi Sabi.  

Wabi savvy. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm really excited for those guys to   learn from their mistakes and build, like, an even better,  

[01:53:38] Unknown:

product. So, you know, should really take solace in the fact that there's a lot of competition right now. And What people don't realize is is people are, like, I'm bearish on   all this CoinJoin   competition,   that that all these different,   you know, tools are competing with each other, and there's, like, a ton of anger and and, fighting on on social media about it.   That is super fucking bullish. Like, 2 years ago, we didn't have multiple platforms to fight over.   It was just joint market. The only thing that existed was joint market.   Yeah. So so I wanna see more competition here. I like that there's a business model associated with it. I mean, the thing the reason I was super bullish on joint market,   originally when it first came out, it was first announced,   in development was was this idea that it provided a financial incentive to provide liquidity. Right? Which is we're all about incentives   in the Bitcoin land. Like, you wanna have strong incentives   that that that reward,   expected behavior, behavior that we wanna see more of.  

Joint Market does that on a more distributed scale, but but both,   Samurai Whirlpool and Wasabi have shown that there's an incentive for centralized companies,   just like Signal   or or WhatsApp or something,   to provide a privacy focused tool and make money off of it.   There there there's a demand there, and then they have an incentive to try and provide a superior privacy product.   I think, ultimately, what we need to see is we need to see it. If it stays niche, if CoinJoin stays niche, if PayJoint stays niche, we have lost. Like, we need to see it in our everyday apps,   And I don't think   that's so hard to see. Like, I I think the samurai guys were on top of it to begin with.  

Mhmm. Maybe not on execution, but on concept. Mhmm. This idea that we're not gonna see the changes we wanna see on the protocol layer.   We're not gonna see those change. As a privacy focused person, we're just not gonna if you wanna see privacy on the protocol level, it's just not gonna happen.   We might get certain little, you know, fundamental improvements, stuff like Taproot,   and and hopefully, ultimately,   you know, cross input signature aggregation.   But we wanna see this on the app level,   and I think   it's possible. Like, I I think, like, even if you talk about something like BlueWallet, which isn't like a privacy focused mobile wallet,   they've taken into into   like, account, like, most best practices.  

And if they wanna keep getting recommended,   like, they're gonna have to add privacy tools in there. Like, they have PayJoin. I think they have the most recent BIP 78 PayJoin.  

[01:56:28] Unknown:

They have Lightning.  

[01:56:30] Unknown:

Yeah. And they have Lightning. Right? Lightning is is is arguably   License.   Is arguably our end user privacy tool that we're hoping for. But I I think,   you know, maybe, like, certain things could   could could be enough for us   if it wasn't for for insidious k KYC.   So, like, we're we're, like, we're, like, set up in a worse position because the majority of Bitcoin users are coming in through KYC onramps.   They're being, like, tagged and bagged as they come in.   So all of your transactions are with tagged and bagged people. Right?   You have a bunch of deer meeting up in the forest.  

Those deer probably wouldn't get identified, but they all have trackers on them.   So, obviously, they're getting they're getting identified. Right?   So so we have to go above and beyond because of this KYC hellhole that we've kind of   found ourselves in. I mean, for no fault of our own, it's just what's gonna happen. Like, our whole our whole world is KYC.   And I think we get past that ultimately through, you know, instead of buying Bitcoin, you earn Bitcoin. Instead of selling Bitcoin, you spend it. But, it it's gonna be a a long process. So, I mean, I this is a great I think this is a great time to transition to Lightning. On Lightning, I think,   ultimately, the sender gets a a massive privacy improvement.  

I I've talked about on the pod that I'm the asshole that when someone sends me a donation or a tip   and tells me they did it,   and they're like, I wanna buy you a bottle of whiskey or something, I do, like, a little minor chain analysis of them, And I tell them I tell them things about their bag,   just to try and teach them.   If they pay me with lightning, I can't easily do that. So for a sender, lightning gives you an additional privacy improvement right off the fucking bat.   For the receiver,   it's not the case. There's a ton of fucking nuance in trying to receive Bitcoin privately through lightning.   We have a recent   paper on,   this subject   that came out.  

I put this in the the video if you're watching the livestream. If you're one of the few freaks watching livestream, we appreciate you. An empirical analysis of privacy in the Lightning Network,   that's arcsiv.org/abs/2003.12470.   You may have   seen this paper in the past. They recently updated it, which is why it's being brought up now.   This was   a question as a part of 61 zero two question hour. Have you had a chance to read the recent lightning privacy paper? He didn't ask, but I assume what is your opinion on that?   Can I start? Yeah. Yeah. Hit us with it. Open arms.  



[01:59:15] Unknown:

So   yeah. I just, put   a link as well about   slides from a presentation which I've done in HCCP,   2020,   which you can download and, you know, have a look. There are a couple of things mentioned there which are part of this   article and, I mean, also been triggered by the previous version version of this of of this article.   Also, just,   one comment before I forget about. So paying with lightning   quite,   private and please do it, especially, like, through multiple hops,   when your peer peer not not seeing your channel balance directly is is absolutely great.   The because because of the onion routing, so it means that you can only see the neighbors   one hop or can only see the neighbors and cannot see, you know, 2 hops,   away either forward or backwards.  

So that's why,   basically, why a payment would be could be quite private   unless you are surveying and separating the wall network every 30 seconds which you go into regarding   paper.   Receiving   on lightning, you don't need to. You can receive on chain. You should use a new address every time. You can use a pay name. You can use your BTC pay server. Just receive on chain. And   when you are running Lightning, you have every all of your spending money on Lightning, you can pay to an on chain address. That is called a submarine swap, and you have multiple ways to do it. The   l and d Lightning Labs do   run a loop service.  

It it is integrated in, like, RTL,   the most, popular kind of node management interface. You have both exchange,   which is   sorry?  

[02:01:10] Unknown:

Sorry. I was just saying that RTL is so great. I I use it when you keep my node on my desktop.  

[02:01:15] Unknown:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then interface?   Yeah. There there is there is a similar   so to loop, there is a similar   thing which is called botz.exchange.   It's it's, bots,   b o l t z dot exchange, which is a sovereign swap service   which where you can pay a lightning invoice and it sends out,   an on chain payment for you. Again, there's, like, half a percent fee, but that's a fee   not   for not just for the service but you gain tremendous amount of privacy there. So if you   pay   your mobile VPN   and you don't go   through the,   you know, third party lightning service, You can go to boss.exchange,   pay your lightning invoice, and have the final amount sent on chain from their wallet has will have nothing to do with you in terms of on chain   footprint.  

Right? So   and if you there you go. My 2 sets,   the developer of of RTLs is that both is coming to RTLs. Well, great. So, you know, the more the better.   So I just want to want to say that that you can   these are interchangeable. It's all Bitcoin. You can receive continue to receive   payments on chain while you are paying everything on lightning.   So okay sorry about that it's just   something which which people do not really see. And all all the mobile address mobile wallets like Breeze, Phoenix,   even wallets of Satoshi   do   support paying to an on chain address straight from the lightning balance, and that is again a submarine swap.  

So that's I mean, that's a long   thing to please please,  

[02:03:10] Unknown:

tell me to stop at some point. Yeah. We are we're I'm muted. I'm muted. So you don't think you don't think that people should receive should should even try receiving privately on lightning right now?   Well, it's it's it's not very possible at the moment. No. I mean, you can use a custodial wallet. Right? And this goes back to the custodial privacy that we were talking about with the iPhone. Right? Like, I could use  

[02:03:33] Unknown:

probably the most private way for me to accept Bitcoin is to use, like, a wallet of Satoshi or something, which is kind of I mean, I'm on lightning. Yeah. Or just another wallet, like, you know, even if you, like, use Phoenix or something which is not actually custodial, but there is some custody of privacy there.   But and someone asked, is lightning a mixer? Well,   like, a cost to your lightning node, yes, it is quite the same as a mixer because you throw in money and you take out another one.   Another kind of sets even on either on chain or or or through lightning. So, I mean, there is   in terms of the way of working,   there are some parallels there   except you call it custodial lightning wallet and not a centralized mixer.  

But, yeah, just just don't go custodial.  

[02:04:25] Unknown:

But that's what I'm saying. That's not really a good argument. I mean, I I don't I don't know if on lightning, if don't go custodial is a good argument. Like, if I'm withdrawing,   from   from go yeah. Don't go custodial with significant amounts. If you're withdrawing from a custody exchange I mean, look, this is where the like,   I wish there was no nuance. If if you're withdrawing from a cust custodial exchange let's say we're withdrawing from Bitfinex.   Mhmm.   And and and I have a Lightning node that I don't want Bitfinex to know about or the rest of the world. Yeah. And I'm KYC with Bitfinex, then I would draw it to Wallet Satoshi, then I pay from Wallet to Satoshi to my node.   Wallet to Satoshi might be able to connect the dice,  

[02:05:07] Unknown:

but at least Bitfinex can't. But it doesn't have the k b c information of Bitfinex if if Bitfinex has  

[02:05:12] Unknown:

you. Right.   So there's, like, an argument to be made on Lightning. There's an argument to be made for custodial on Bitcoin, probably never   use custodial.  

[02:05:22] Unknown:

But yes. But this would be just low amount, right? Because it it wouldn't worth it and you wouldn't be able to withdraw like you know multimillion set of shoes to lightning. You would withdraw on chain and and pay the, you know, 40  

[02:05:34] Unknown:

k, sets withdrawal fee and So open arms open arms. Let me hit you with a actionable example   that that maybe,   at least the freaks that   that are having a good time, having fun staying poor out there, can relate to.   I was playing poker the other day, and they said, Matt,   Matt, you can't be,   you can't be, like, sitting around never being the banker. Like, this is, like, week 10 of poker. You've never been the banker. It's your turn to be the banker. It's like, I don't wanna be the banker. Like, why am I the banker? Like, you guys should just be lucky that I'm playing with you, you know, like, blah blah blah. And they, like, compelled me to be the banker. So I was like, okay. Fuck it. I'll be the banker.   And then some guys were like, I wanna receive I want I wanna pay in lightning. I wanna pay in fucking Onchain or whatever.  

So I I gave people individual addresses for on chain if they wanted on chain.   Otherwise, I provided them individual invoices if they wanted to pay on Lightning.   And   so one guy I provided a Lightning invoice,   and the Lightning invoice said,   this is for 500,000   sats. Right?   Which obviously an invoice would say. And then it showed his NIM, and then I put his NIM in the in the in the,   memo   For my own so I knew that he was the one who paid it. Right? And then I put,   poker.   So I put his nim plus poker in the memo plus the amount, and he paid me with strike.   So now,   Jack forever and anyone who any regulator who he works with has this from his KYC name   has him paying this invoice that says his NIM   poker   and the amount.  

Right? And, like, he would have been way better off if I had just given him an invoice from Wallace Satoshi.  

[02:07:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, what he did is he did not use lightning node node. I mean, not his. He's he withdrew from an exchange to your invoice.   That's what I did. Yep. So  

[02:07:38] Unknown:

so yes. So he did didn't only docs my point is, I guess, my point is not only did he fuck himself,   he fucked me.   Right? Yeah. Because now now Jack has now he's my boy. You know, hopefully, Jack isn't gonna come after me,   you know. But but he but now this regulated entity   has   knows that that that Matt I mean, this is this is my public note, knows that I was playing poker with this specific user   at this time, and this was the amount we paid. Yeah. Absolutely. As a receiver. And that wasn't my that wasn't my chose choice. I provided the invoice, but I didn't know where he was gonna pay it from. I didn't know he was gonna pay it straight from KYC.  

[02:08:19] Unknown:

You you you you made a mistake there because you you any any invoice  

[02:08:24] Unknown:

There's no personal responsibility, open arms. I did not make  

[02:08:28] Unknown:

You know, in terms of price,   I mean, you realize that very well and and, you know, that's why I wrote this example. There is, for example, if you're not not having noticed home, there is lightningdecoder.com   where you can put any landing invoice and it just shows what the content is. It's not   encrypted. It is just in a format which needs to be decoded and shows you the node ID where you are paying to.   And that note I mean, there is no good,   solution at the moment to hide that node ID. That could be if you do kind of fake nodes with through private channels with the, like, kind of, HDLC   acceptor API.  

These are not built yet being worked on. But what I would have done   well,   I'm I'm not saying, you know, I mean, you you obviously, you know, did did did well because you did fulfill the   the,   ask of that friend of yours to play in lightning, which is great. You know, it's a great feeling to play with lightning.   I don't know how to do strike because it's not available in in Europe yet. I haven't used it either, only on the receiving end. I've only been doxed unintentionally by strike. I've never actually used it. Right. So so what you could do is just to take your phone, download the mobile wallet, let it be Breeze or Phoenix. These are non custodial, so you have the keys and you use those as the   as as instead of having a pile of,   you know, cash on the table. Right? People just throw the   the sets in there and then you do what you do with that later on. You can withdraw it on chain or you can you can   send it over to your lightning nodes later on from that mobile wallet. And   you use it only for that and, you know, it's gone. There will be no   no no more thing to worry about.  



[02:10:14] Unknown:

My point is is from a privacy perspective on the receiving side for lightning. Right now, there's a lot to be desired. I mean, I I Absolutely agree. I've I've I've talked to you about this in the past on the podcast, and on Twitter and Mastodon, whatever.  

[02:10:29] Unknown:

If you scroll through that presentation,   which we had just, like, linked previously, that is, like, the 3rd slide. Right. And  

[02:10:36] Unknown:

and and and stating all this. But but my my point my point is is   is is   with lightning as it's currently set up where you you have this fixed public key. Right?   Mhmm. And this your note is attached to public key. I mean, it is it is set up in a way   that if you're looking at it from, like, a regular   regulatory compliant exchange point of view, like, something like a strike or   a bid for next withdrawals or, like, a bottle pay. Like, you're talking about   they're getting they're they're gonna have a database of public keys, and they're gonna have them attached to KYC.   And there's gonna be you know, it it is set up in a way   that the receiver   has very poor privacy.  

And I I I'm I've been told in the past when I brought this up, like, rotating pub keys, all this shit's gonna happen. We're not gonna have to deal with this in the future.   Okay.   I look forward to it.   But right now, as it stands, the receiver   end of story. If you wanna talk about there's all this nuance and stuff the receiver can do. But at the end of the day, the receiver has horrible privacy guarantees.  

[02:11:46] Unknown:

Yep. There you go. So so the so so then   when you receive Bitcoin,   receive to an on chain address   and make it clear for everyone that you can actually pay from a lightning wallet to an on chain address.   And if not,   then send them to, you know, borist.exchange   or whatever other there are plenty of other   services run by, you know, or   other,   companies and things.  

[02:12:16] Unknown:

Yeah.   So, Anthony, we have you in the comments. You're saying, since we're talking privacy, my recommendation is to avoid sending mixed coins to your node. Why? Hit us in the comments. No. I would I would only send  

[02:12:26] Unknown:

coin CoinJoin coins  

[02:12:28] Unknown:

to my node. So Me and Open Arms and Evan are just only we're only sending CoinJoin output store notes. So I'm curious what your angle is there on that.   Right?   Like, that that that gave especially if it's a public note. If it's public note I mean, someone else asked in the comments. I don't have their name. Is it possible for an average user to do a profitable lightning note? And, I mean, we have,   Bosworth,   Alex Bosworth, who I respect the shit out of, you know, thank you for your service,   like, bragging about his his,   revenue that he's bringing in on his routing note. Like, bro,   you named the reputation score after yourself. It's the boss   score. Like, of course, you're making money off of it. I think the average user, like, this average sovereign Bitcoin node operator,   who is running everything through Tor because he doesn't wanna expose his IP address, he's fucked. Like, there's no way that he's gonna ever have a profitable Lightning node. That is fine.  

Like, it's it's it's he's gonna run it for ideological reasons. I run my nodes for ideological reasons. Both of you guys run your nodes, I think, for ideological reasons. Like, am I am I am I misguided here? Oh, no. No. That's what I was trying to allude to at the beginning of the show. Like,  

[02:13:41] Unknown:

either you're running like a personal node really or you're running a routing node. And that routing node   is not gonna have the same, privacy properties that your your private one does use. Right? But you're also   you know, have this chance of   making a a profit on that router. The thing is what the misconception here, right, is that people think, okay. I can just put up,   this capital and create these channels and then sit on my ass for a month and then come back and see a lot of profit.   And if that's what you think is gonna happen, like, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just not how it works. If you wanna be a routing node and make a decent amount of profit,   you need to, a, put up a significant amount of capital, and, b, you gotta be managing it daily. And if you really wanna, like, be cutting it c, it has to be on ClearNet on, like, AWS. It's gotta be ClearNet. You can you might wanna you could have the TOR option on your node, but you can't have a TOR only  

[02:14:40] Unknown:

node. That affects the routing and the path finding. Right? Can't open arms. You your node was offline for a fucking week while I tried to figure out the v three issues.  

[02:14:51] Unknown:

Theoretically, you can, but  

[02:14:53] Unknown:

that's the the way the network stands today. It's not practical to So look look at the look at the node, which is called   Yarls Tor.   And guess what? Who is managing that? And is it profitable?  

[02:15:06] Unknown:

Which node? Which node? Store? Yeah. Yo. It's Tor. So No. No. But it's Tor plus clear net. He has a clear net. Yeah. It has a clear net too.  

[02:15:15] Unknown:

So, anyway, the point is No. It doesn't.  

[02:15:18] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's accessible from both.  

[02:15:21] Unknown:

Y'all's is both. It's not Tor only. No. There are 2 nodes. There are y'alls, clear net, and there is a y'alls Tor node. The main y'alls node is both clear net and Tor. Look. The one I just linked has 26 Bitcoin capacity.  

[02:15:35] Unknown:

Like  

[02:15:36] Unknown:

That is not a minor node   and only has What a tiny node. Yeah. Exactly.   Only has only an address.  

[02:15:46] Unknown:

Let me check. Well, he also has the advantage that he's providing a service there too. Oh, this is his oh, this is his tour only node?  

[02:15:54] Unknown:

Yep.  

[02:15:55] Unknown:

Gotcha. Okay. But, anyway, we're talking about the guy who's, like he fucking design like, he's, like, a main   lightning dev. You know? Like, this is ridiculous. Like, no one should be I have people reach out to me. They're like, Bosworth said that he made, like, 5 Bitcoin.   Like, why, like, can I not make money?   You know? Like, it's ridiculous.  

[02:16:15] Unknown:

Like, I've only lost money. You gotta be very active to be making those numbers, and you've gotta get a lot of capital. You gotta see that buzz on his note. He's got he's got a lot of money behind him. So I've lost so much money on my lightning node.  

[02:16:28] Unknown:

But you're not asking. I've lost so much money on my lightning nodes. You've just You've just just If you want to make money and want to help the network really,  

[02:16:37] Unknown:

then put the money into join markets and offer it. Let's go and join the You don't make any money on join market either, Braud.   You can raise the fees from the minimum   well below   the default so people will still accept just pressing enter. And you will actually make more money than with the same liquidity   putting on the writing lightning notes with plenty of work done. You know, this is just fact. And that's what it wants. Neither of the returns neither of the returns  

[02:17:06] Unknown:

over overcompensate   your hot wallet risk that you're taking.  

[02:17:10] Unknown:

Well, you need to I mean Well, everyone's got their own risk tolerance, Matt.  

[02:17:16] Unknown:

I'm just saying, like, objectively.  

[02:17:19] Unknown:

Objectively.   But this is the answer to the question. Can you make money on your note? You can make minimal amount of money. You can have 2 benefits. With lightning, you can pay instantly.   Mhmm. And with drone market, you can,   gain privacy by being a maker.   And which one you want most   or more or do you want you you can do both   and, you know, make a couple of sets. And indeed, in lightning, you because you have the force close risk of, you know, force closing the channel is hugely expensive,   and indeed you need   significant size channels like close   get to see what is what is the   average in one ml slash statistics, for example,   it's like 2,800,000.  

So if you go, you know, 10 times lower than that, that you are far below the level where it could be any useful.   So, yes, you need you need capacity. And if you want to route, you don't,   you know, 2 peers are not I mean, 1 peer is not enough, 2 is definitely not, but then   2 is, you know,   practically can work, but not enough. You can need to have 10, you know, 20, 30, 100 peers.   So Wait. I don't know about that. Money.  

[02:18:41] Unknown:

For to be a routing node? Yes. You would you would need more than, like, 10 peers. Oh, wait. If you need a I mean, if your if your argument is that you need over a 100 peers to be a successful loud routing node, like, you're fucked if you're Tor only.   Like, what? I I   I I'm running I'm running one of the largest Tor only routing nodes.  

[02:19:02] Unknown:

You know, it's a fucking mess, man. It's, like, it's it's the reliance on tour is fucking horrible. What? Another part of the equation is that all liquidity is not equal. And you did a really generous thing to help bootstrap the Lightning   Network. It was generous. Parties with the freaks. Right? No. I helped the number go up. You did help the number go up, and and we salute you for that. But but it's not the best solution, not the best strategy  

[02:19:30] Unknown:

for making returns as a routing note. That's all I'm saying. No. I definitely fucked it up. You wanna do fewer channels. You could do fewer larger channels is the play if you wanna try and make some money off of this shit. And you want it on a stable hardware, on a good ISP. But look. We got Anthony here. I have a second note. I have a second note that I tried to do it the right way. Okay? And and the second note and and and 6102   and we have Anthony here. He's on tour only with 10 channels. I only make, like, $1 a month. LOL. Well, first of all, Anthony, you have to measure your profit in stats. So you you've already you're already short Bitcoin.   I,   6102 asked me, will channel   closures cost more than yes. They have so far for me.  

Right? I I my channel closures but this was my same issue, right, that Evan said, is that I just went too big. Like, I had, like, 350 channels on my node   all out to plebs. Like, probably, like, 60 of the channels were out to, like, shitty Casa notes.   Matt, I appreciate you. You know? And when the fees went up, they all forced closed on me, and they fucking wrecked me. Yeah. They, like, destroyed me. So   You need to handpick your peers. Yeah. Yeah. That that's fucked up. Right? We that wasn't what we were sold open, Arms. Like, we were sold   we were sold trustless.  

I, you know, I understand trust minimized was really what we should have been sold. But still, regardless, like, this idea that I gotta pick my peers, that I have to know who my peers are is, like, a is a new concept. That's a something that was added after the fact. They were, like, oh, like, why you shouldn't just have random peers. You know,  

[02:21:05] Unknown:

even if you look at the white paper, Matt, our assumptions   Satoshi's assumptions weren't a 100% right. Sometimes we gotta learn some hard lessons along the way in this in creating these decentralized technologies.  

[02:21:17] Unknown:

The best part of the freaks is we got Suheb in the comments telling us $1 a month is awesome, and then we have Anthony Anthony converted it over to Sats for us. Hey, because  

[02:21:28] Unknown:

this thing's  

[02:21:29] Unknown:

gonna pump forever like I know it will. That $1 a month you're getting now, that might pay for your kid's college down the line. So And that was the other thing. Okay. So so we have 21ism collective saying what fees do you set for routing? I remember open arms. Do you remember this? When I when I decided to raise my fees slightly   to, like, 1 hundredth of a percent or something, and you, like, called you, like, shamed me on Twitter.  

[02:21:53] Unknown:

Oh, no. What what did you set it to? From 1 to 400?  

[02:21:57] Unknown:

It's warriors. Okay. Oh, my god.  

[02:22:00] Unknown:

It is a 400 x rays. It was less than 4%. What it was, like, 4 percentiles over percent or something.  

[02:22:07] Unknown:

I think it was, yeah, 0.4, wasn't it?  

[02:22:12] Unknown:

I could look it up. Yeah. And you're like, oh, when someone raises their fees through the roof, you gotta just cut them off and raise your fees.  

[02:22:20] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, come on. I I do,   comment Ellen Biggs   tweets as well and and do he's doing something. You know? Let's talk about him.   Oh, yeah. Well, he or them. Right.  

[02:22:31] Unknown:

Or NSA.   Is Alan Bigg a trustworthy actor? Is it a proper Bitcoiner?  

[02:22:39] Unknown:

I did interact with him a couple of times, and, you know, he is reasonable. He looks like a person who has, like, a a rather explosive personality,   but, you know, logical and seems to   want to, you know, do good for the network. I mean,   I don't know what it is  

[02:22:58] Unknown:

really his aim is, and I don't really have channels with him either. Wait. All of his nodes are are located in the same data center in Virginia,   like,   half an hour from Langley,   which is the CIA headquarters for the non Americans or anyone who's not watched, like, my docudrama.  

[02:23:15] Unknown:

Tracks a little better than what?  

[02:23:18] Unknown:

I yeah. I I almost feel like it's less suspicious that it's located there because why would they do that? But at the same time, maybe they're just playing 4 d chess against us.   But it's, like, half the network. Ellen Big is, like, half the network.  

[02:23:31] Unknown:

Yeah. Still, we should make him, you know, insignificant.  

[02:23:34] Unknown:

I love the 6102 saying that I'm Ellen Bigg, but most people think I'm 6102. So maybe 6102 is Ellen Bigg. Okay. Now we're talking 5 d chess.   Okay. What do we think about Ellen Bigg? Let's riff on this. No one talks about it.  

[02:23:52] Unknown:

We gotta get the network to the size where   he's insignificant, and then we shouldn't care. You know?  

[02:23:58] Unknown:

Exactly. And with with private channels, we we might be already there.  

[02:24:03] Unknown:

But the public capacity is still Yeah. We don't know. That's a thing. It's a black box, really.  

[02:24:09] Unknown:

Well, once again, fuck private capacity. We don't care about that. I'd I I I think it's I think I think that's a bullshit argument.   I understand the private capacity argument. I just I it's not beneficial.  

[02:24:23] Unknown:

No. No. You're right. Even even if we did have all this capacity on the private that we knew of, we we can't, like, take that into consideration. We should just take assume that the capacity there is 1 Bitcoin or something like   just minuscule   because we we gotta keep iterating on this thing, and we we gotta find ways,   so that we're not dependent on just   that number, that black box value   cover saving our asses. We we can't be dependent on that. That that's not like the argument the argument that Bosworth makes, like, for the freaks  

[02:24:55] Unknown:

is that,   we we talked earlier about a completely private channel network, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant to the average user.   There is a private channel usage that is relevant to the average user, which is that if I have   a channel with Evan, it's public node, let's say, as a as a explanation   Mhmm. And and that channel has 16,000,000 Sats total possible capacity,   I could then have private channels that do greater capacity than that, and they will always fulfill any   up to 16,000,000   sat request.   So you can have, like   as long as you have a channel that's large enough for your minimum payment, you can have a bunch of chat you can have a shadow private channel that's way larger,   that can fulfill that payment. So you're basically just broadcasting your largest payment capability.  



[02:25:49] Unknown:

It can be opened and closed without, you know, being advertised with your node.  

[02:25:55] Unknown:

And if you cool. But I just think that's way less used than, like, this, like, random private channel network that's completely unrelated to us.  

[02:26:05] Unknown:

Yes. But if you if you're a routing node operator,   if you want to make make money, for example Who who who are these people?  

[02:26:13] Unknown:

If it's it's like We are these people. We are the routing node operators. Yeah. Exactly.   Exactly. It's actually of us. Yeah. And running We're, like, 3 of the 12. 3 of the 12   sovereign routing node operators are on this fucking chat right now.   Continue.  

[02:26:30] Unknown:

Yes. Exactly. But what what you want is to for your security, you want to minimize your exposure, your your hot wallet risk and etcetera, or your or, at a surface. So you would want to minimize the advertised public capacity of your node. So you don't want to if you have, like,   sets flying into one direction and they need more liquidity in that direction, then you don't want to just open another public channel. You want to open another   private channel so you're not advertising that your capacity is suddenly higher, but you will be able to continue to route. And when that depletes, you will open another,   private channel to that direction and close the old one because it has depleted.  

And, you know, and you close in a way that the sets are   on chain ending up in your,   let's say, your joint market maker wallet. And it just keeps,   you know, coin joined away.   Or you can just use your whole storage as well. You don't even need to touch the on chain wallet, and you don't you won't be building up this problem with the,   you know, peeling chains and whatever merging   changes from private channels to public ones and things like that.   So I'm just thinking that to to minimize the advertised   public capacity   to is   essential   to be   safe as possible. Right? So,   you know, these no nodes which are efficient routing nodes might have, you know, multiples   of shadow capacity,   but, you know, you and me,   we'll never  

[02:28:13] Unknown:

know. Well, in current in the current state, the the safest   method   is is is you don't run a routing node. I mean, you're you're changing your lightning node every 2 months or something.   You're just constantly   closing out your node and and moving to a I mean, and on chain fees aren't that high,   so whatever.   Close out your node, coin join,   move to a new node, new pub key.  

[02:28:39] Unknown:

Well, if you dox if   if you have doxed your pub key,  

[02:28:43] Unknown:

then that's the case. Yes. Your PubKey is doxed every fucking payment. That's my point.  

[02:28:50] Unknown:

But if you're just running routing node, you're not necessarily using it for payments. Oh, so you're never receiving payments from it? Yeah. You might not Do you have your payment node as a separate node that's attached to your routing node as, like, the auxiliary regional If it's a routing node, you are not interested in receiving payments because what you are selling is the incoming liquidity, is is the incoming capacity. So the   that's what you can do. So someone pays through you. So you so you need to have roughly like 50 50 percent of your overall balance   to be your overall capacity need to be   on the distant   side and on the local side. So you don't want to have you don't want to receive payments because that that would reduce your ability to route payments.  



[02:29:36] Unknown:

I just fucking love that he called it the BOS score.   Hey. Listen. What do you know what it stands for?   He made up something. It's balance of satoshis,   but it really stands for Bosworth. Like, who do you think we are? Like, we know we know it stands to your name. It it'd be like if Odell   like, I just I don't know.   Of the I I can't think of it on the spot, but if I tried to come up with some fucking bullshit.  

[02:30:02] Unknown:

I'll think of it tomorrow. You'll see. Yeah. Someone figure out Odell, but but,  

[02:30:07] Unknown:

But BOS score is not is not used for many things. You know? It's just a public score which you can build on. And it's also for loop.  

[02:30:17] Unknown:

For loop? How? Yeah. Loop liquidity.   Mhmm. VAS score isn't as bad as Odell's score for privacy. It's a very good take. I appreciate you guys.   Yeah. We know we know Suheb. We know he's called balance of Satoshi. I appreciate Suheb being here.   So Taylor of my boys.  

[02:30:35] Unknown:

Loop is a submarine swap service. What what would it do? It's Yeah. The Odell score is horrible for privacy.  

[02:30:42] Unknown:

Don't don't don't judge yourself. Loop loop bases your,   bases your, like, whether or not someone goes with you based off your boss score.   Pool.   What? Pool,  

[02:30:56] Unknown:

not loop.  

[02:30:58] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Pool.  

[02:31:00] Unknown:

Easy to mix up. Apologies.  

[02:31:02] Unknown:

I apologize, guys. We're we're 2 and a half hours in here. I mean, there yes. There there is there is a there is a respect, but for example, the autopilot  

[02:31:09] Unknown:

or Yeah. The autopilot.  

[02:31:11] Unknown:

Routing is not based on that. There is LND has another scoring system, which is open source, obviously, which is, like, you know, based on betweenness and,   and fees,   to,   you know, how to construct the payment routes and things. And, I mean, you know, yes. I I mean, I do agree   I mean, I would prefer to have, like, an open source scoring system as well, but also   the argument is if it would be fully open source, then it would be easily gameable.   So, I mean, you know, pool is a gameable But that's why Bitcoin exists. Right? Like, this is a ridiculous bullshit argument. Right? But pool is a centralized service, and you don't need to use it.  

[02:31:48] Unknown:

So Right. I mean, but the idea is What's the problem? Right. Yeah.   I mean   I mean, if if if we were just gonna stand with this idea that, like, you cannot create a game a nongamable,   verifiable   network, then we wouldn't have Bitcoin.   Right?   Yeah. Yeah.   Well, yeah. I mean, it's Oh, he figured it out. 6102   figured it out. Odell, one dude's expensive lightning lessons.  

[02:32:18] Unknown:

Duke's is pretty good too. What was Duke's?  

[02:32:21] Unknown:

Obviously, don't explain low levels.   Yo, Freaks, I love you guys.   I appreciate you guys. I love interacting with you live. I mean, I just just for the Freaks that are here live and and to the podcasters that are here, just I just wanna let you know we have, like, 70 freaks here. We have, like, 80 freaks here paying attention. We're, like, in a small close knit, like, little fuck around group,   just watching the price of Bitcoin on our our favorite exchange and then also Coinbase,  

[02:32:52] Unknown:

and, we're just having fun with it. So I I appreciate you guys Man. Along with this. Look. I mean, I know the price is bumping right now, but that spread is really tiny right now. That's, like, what, less than a percent?  

[02:33:04] Unknown:

No. Yeah. I mean I mean,   I I'm if if the freaks aren't gonna pump this shit to 50 k on bisque, like, are they really freaks? Like, last week, that's what we had. So, I mean, I I just wonder, like, with the lack of liquidity there, like, if you're if you're if you're not pumping that price, are you really a freak? Yeah. Freaks think about it. It's economically,  

[02:33:24] Unknown:

like, smart for you guys to be purchasing on this. If the this price spread   is, as percentage is smaller percent than what it would cost to CoinJoin,  

[02:33:35] Unknown:

then, you know, buying on DISC is a great option. Let's put those talk about numbers up, freaks. Come on. Non KYC sats. Let's do it. So Anthony mentioned what I was talking about, which is is is on pool in lightning pool. If you're if you're not top of the boss list, if you're not top of of the balance of Satoshi's list, you cannot you cannot sell your liquidity in the pool. You have to be a verified seller.   And he named that after himself and then pretended it was balance of Satoshis. Right?  

[02:34:09] Unknown:

I mean, it it's it's it's not Alex making the pool,   code   pretty much, you know. So it is just something they used to put the nodes into 2 tiers. That is tier 0 and tier 1. And to have some kind of guarantee to,   be able to have a useful channel, by default, you are buying channels from tier 1, which is   the, you know, all the nodes who have ever made to the top 300 of the roughly of the boss score, but it's it's not really,   so they can arbitrarily   put a node to tier 1 if they want because that's a database which should manage by lighting labs and and their and their pool server.   So, I mean, that that that's how it is used, but it is not very   significant. And and there is a comment. Again, Anthony says that none of his   is is Tor only notes didn't make it to to the BOS score. Well, I don't even know how to run a a node on Clearnet. All my notes are on   on tour only, and they have all made it to the bus score   bus list just   for, you know   maybe I'm on the same Telegram channel as,  

[02:35:23] Unknown:

as Alex is. Right? Right. He's calling you out. You're on the wait list.  

[02:35:29] Unknown:

Exactly. But he doesn't know my notes, though. He's he's calling you out. Yeah.  

[02:35:34] Unknown:

Well, I appreciate Anthony. He works for Bottlepay.  

[02:35:37] Unknown:

No. No. I agree. I mean, you know, it's a it's a good point,   but I don't think it's a big issue, and I hope that they will get rid of it,   even to be used in pool   or or just, you know, someone should make up a better scoring system.  

[02:35:54] Unknown:

The Odell. Come on. Let's get it out tomorrow. Yeah. We gotta get the Odell. The,   Listen. We're gonna watch it, and then I'm gonna game the fuck out of it. What was what was my favorite acronym of it?  

[02:36:06] Unknown:

I can't even I the scrolling on this shit fucking sucks.  

[02:36:11] Unknown:

It doesn't work, does it?  

[02:36:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. It was good. Everyone heard it.   Yeah. So one dude's expensive lightning lessons. Yeah. There it goes. It does. That's fucking fantastic.   Yeah. I mean,   well, you know, we'll work on it. I I don't think it'll ever honestly, I don't I don't think it'll ever be profit profitable. I'm fine with it. I do like someone who's, like, Citadel dispatch e 0.0.6 BOS score. Like, that's what I should say.  

[02:36:40] Unknown:

Just like the sea lightning release names, they always have a funny release name. Shout out to I I just wanna say I wanna say that,  

[02:36:48] Unknown:

what I'm going for with Citadel dispatch is   both   the   the hangout that the average freak might have fun with, but also the hangout where we have our legend, Suheb, tell us that he was not aware of the boss score requirement for pool mid episode, which is fantastic. Right? So so we're we're helping   Hey, Frank. We're all learning here. Okay? We're all learning learning here. So That's because he he yeah. He didn't integrate pooling to RTL yet. Yeah. He's he's a failure. And, we appreciate you, but you have to improve.   So we have one last question in the 61 or 2 question hour,   which   is pretty important.  

Are there any privacy considerations   after closing a channel?  

[02:37:36] Unknown:

Yes. There there's a huge consideration. As it stands now, you're we we know when a on chain transaction is a channel closed, and that's why we gotta get Schnorr and Taproot out the door.  

[02:37:48] Unknown:

Yep. Close it to your external wallet. Use the flag delivery address,   delivery addr,   and put your   cold storage at or, you know,   or join market or whatever address there   and close it to it.   And then it will be out out and won't be merged again with the   next channel opening and then just have this rolling kind of pinching   thing appearing.   And if you can do a cooperative close because that is less obvious, we can because you can only tell that it is a lightning close,   it's like you cannot tell it certainly,   but you can infer it because it has, like,   a higher than 0,   sequence number   and 2 outputs.  

But that's it. You cannot otherwise tell that it is   and also one one input as from the article.   So, yeah, it is it is likely, but not not obvious if it's a cooperative clause. Also, it's also it's it is   cheaper. If you do a forced close, it will be   quite obvious from the time lock that it it was a forced close, so   avoid that if you can. If your period is online,   it it will be cooperative.   If your period is offline or if or if it's force closing because of stuck HDLC or other bug, then it will be   obvious. Yeah.  

[02:39:17] Unknown:

I mean, the simple answer is yes.   Like, you just doxed yourself publicly.   Like, you're you're you're treat every fucking lightning close as the most toxic fucking thing ever and perceive accordingly. It's only applicable to a public I mean, you know, or to a private channel because Well, I mean, it might get public in the future it It might get public in the future, so you should just assume that any lightning close is the most toxic fucking thing ever.  

[02:39:42] Unknown:

But it's if it's a public channel, it's already out in the open. So UTXO is is be never be never private because your channel point, which is the actual channel,   is being advertised  

[02:39:52] Unknown:

at the gossip network of the Lightning Network. Okay. So if you have a public channel,   then what I said is absolutely correct.   Right? That is the most toxic thing ever, and that's the majority of channels on lightning probably for the average person. And then if you have a private channel, you should probably also proceed accordingly because whoever you have the private channel with knows that shit.   Right?  

[02:40:17] Unknown:

So yes. So use coin control as much as you can and,  

[02:40:22] Unknown:

you know, mix it or coin join it. Sorry. Well, you should coin join in and out. Right? I mean, that's I I think it's it's it's not a it's not a it's untenable position.   Like, you coin join in, you coin join out. And that that that's that's how it is. Because even if you have a private channel if I have a private channel with open arms, he's my boy, but I don't even know his real name. I don't know his government name. Like, I know him as Open Arms. He could be a fucking   he could be James Bond.   You know? He could be double o seven. I don't know that shit. So if I close a channel with him, he knows that channel closed transaction. Right? And he can he can follow me on chain for any transaction from that point. Same as if if he sent me an on chain transaction.   So so you need to treat that transaction as the most toxic fucking thing ever. Right? And you you it should go into CoinJoin beforehand. It should go into CoinJoin afterwards no matter what, in my opinion.  



[02:41:18] Unknown:

Or or it could be swapped?  

[02:41:20] Unknown:

It could be swapped. Yeah. There's nuance. You know? Fucking deal with it, though. Like like, treat it as fucking toxic. It's toxic.  

[02:41:28] Unknown:

Bitcoin is not private.  

[02:41:30] Unknown:

It is, but only if you use it that way.   Not private default.   It's so far from that. Yeah.  

[02:41:40] Unknown:

We'll get there.  

[02:41:41] Unknown:

So so when when we call join be in and out automated, that is why I'm opening my channels from my joint market wallet, and that is why I'm closing into it because then it is bloody ultimate. Hell, yeah. But we we need Zeus to do it for us. Like, Zeus should just  

[02:41:56] Unknown:

I don't know who the dev is, like, the main maintainer for Zeus, but I feel like Zeus should just   it should just be, like, I I deposit funds. It should just automatically coin join, and then it should be, like, these funds are ready,   for for opening channels with. And then when I close a channel, it should just automatically go into coin join, and it should be like, these funds are ready to remove.  

[02:42:16] Unknown:

Hell, yeah. I mean,   the that's the that's the dream. Let let's make it happen. I think we're gonna be making some steps in that direction. We go.  

[02:42:26] Unknown:

Game changer.   That's what I wanna say. Do you wanna talk about anything Zeus related? I mean, someone mentioned something in here about Watchtowers.  

[02:42:35] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. Well, let's let's riff on a couple things.   So someone Okay.   Coin control and Zeus.   So coin control for both doing your on chain sends and for your, channel opens.   It's currently supported   right now only with CLightning REST, which is a wrapper for CLightning that Sue had from RTL made. It's awesome.   The support for LND   is gonna be coming soon,   but their API   is a little wonky right now.   It could stand to be improved. I'm gonna bring that up to them this week, and hopefully, we can get that in soon   because, coin control is a big part of the equation first in private on l and d.  

But Zeus, we we made a lot of, great progress   past couple months. We sort of wrap it up this week   in that, we've got Tor running natively   in the app,   both on Android, which you previously had to do with the Orbot app separately, which was a big pain in the ass, and now also on iOS, which wasn't really possible at all. You'd have to do some   VPN action to access your mo your node remotely.   So we're really happy about that. The guys at Cypher Apps coded that up, and we paid out their bounty.   So shout out to everyone who   contributed to that bounty. Matt helped,   this up with you. Let's fucking go. Yeah. Let's fucking go, guys.  



[02:44:02] Unknown:

So, now we got this great And they say you can't throw money at problems. Bullshit.  

[02:44:07] Unknown:

We fucking did it. React Native Tour. So we're hoping that our buddies over at BlueWallet   and at Hexa Wallet, which also use React Native,   will be using this library too. So we're making Bitcoin just a little bit more private in our own way. So, again, shout shouts to everyone   that helped out with that. Capitalist dog and mister cool b,   Ben Prentice. You guys,   really helped get that over the line, and shout out again to Cypher apps.   But, yeah, Zeus,   we're gonna just be trying to make the experience   better all in all. We're talking with the Bitcoin Design Group on helping us, clean up the user interface.   We're also, like, really focused on privacy, and and that's really important as you guys could tell with the tour release. We're gonna add coin control to lnd real soon.  

And, this next release with Tor, before we get out the door, I'm trying to finish up a new feature where you can pick,   your first hop and your last hop when paying a lightning,   invoice.   So, hoping to have that out with the new release version 0.5.  

[02:45:12] Unknown:

I like that idea.   Yeah. I I think that's gonna really go a long way because, you know So if you could pick your first hop, then there maybe is some hope for a sovereign,   lightning node operator to make a profit. Right? Because they make a profit off of being that Tor only node that you go through.  

[02:45:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I I think that could go a long way, and   I it's right in the lnd API. It's all coded up. I'm hoping to test it in the in the next,   week or so and get it out the door. So, yeah, we're we're just making some improvements there.   That that would be really good.   As you guys know, you know, we support all the big   lightning implementations right now. If you got your own node that you're running, which is the best way to run lightning, you can connect on LND.   CLightnings through Suheb,   CLightning REST and also through Spark.   And, most recently, we got Eclair support.  

If you don't have a node, you can, right now, connect through,   LND hub, which is what BlueWallet's running off of.   But,   we're also gonna be looking at Neutrino as Neutrino support's gonna improve on l and d.   And, I guess we could announce it now. I'm now joining,   Hexa Wallet as an adviser.   Matt helped recruit me, and we're gonna try to bring lightning to that wallet too. Hopefully Disclosure.   Disclosure.   Yes.   Both advisors over there. But, yeah, HEX is like a great wallet, especially for newbies. It really tackles a lot of pain points on getting started with Bitcoin, and hopefully, we can help carry that great on chain experience over to lightning.  

[02:46:58] Unknown:

Full disclosure, my hands are everywhere.   Yeah. Mascot is thumbs in a lot of pies right now. Just trying to I'm just trying to fuck around and make things work until I disappear.   Yeah. For sure. I appreciate you joining us over at Hexa. I think they're doing good work over there. Yeah, man. It's a good project, and I'm excited to I also   I also appreciate Suheb coming in here.   2 hours and 50 minutes in, you can pick the first hop in payments via RTL. I mean, I like, honestly, like, are you really a freak if you're not showing your your product?  

[02:47:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Where's the last hop? Almost 3 hours in.   Wait. You see, I'm a little bit because I when I'm not managing my node with Zeus, I am using RTL. It's RTL's fucking fantastic. I mean, it's  

[02:47:47] Unknown:

I use it all all day every day. I just I I it it's it's my number one way it's my number one way to interact with my lightning nodes, and then my number two way is model? Use it on your own, bro? Is Zeus. What?   Zeus, man. Zeus is my number 2 way. Like, Zeus is how I make payments, because, like, to be honest, Sueb, I'm sorry. RTL, like, really sucks for payments.   And then I use RTL to manage my channels.   It's alright, Sueb. We'll, we'll split the When you when you when you do a payment through RTL, it's like you're just it's like the roulette wheel. You just, like, put it in. You're just like, oh, is this gonna work this time? Like, I don't even this is a is this a future of of of money?   No. No. Like, I'm I'm just gonna put this in and just hope that it refreshes and it works?  



[02:48:35] Unknown:

No. But but RTL's got some great,   advantages in that you could use the loop service and,   hopefully,   we'll soon.  

[02:48:44] Unknown:

It's the node operator's fucking UI, and it's fantastic. It's a good job. Yeah. It's awesome.   WatchTowers. You didn't mention WatchTowers. I'm like, I'm trying to end this, guys. I I appreciate you both being here for Yeah. No worries. Let's do it. Hours and 50 minutes. You guys are are my boys. This is the longest Citadel Dispatch conversation we've ever had.   Here's to the freaks who have chilled with us live during this whole fucking thing. You guys are not real. Like All 69 of you. That fucking tells them,   you know, feel free to leave and come back later if you want. Watch towers.  



[02:49:19] Unknown:

Watch towers. Are they ever gonna happen?   No. They exist right now. So, I've used Eye of Satoshi in the past. I I think they're updating some stuff. I haven't used this much recently.   Messed around with some of the preliminary stuff on l and d, and it works pretty good. So, yeah, WatchTowers exist right now.   I haven't personally   put out my Justice transaction yet, but,   I'm gonna be doing some more testing with WatchTowers. I just really haven't had a real use case to do it, but I'm working on some new projects that are gonna require it. So I'll I'll be sure to keep all you freaks updated on that. But, yeah, watchtowers are out in the wild. They work. So  

[02:49:57] Unknown:

Yeah. The point of watchtowers is is to deep detail   the,   cheaters, basically. So you don't need to   know the the fact that watchtowers are available for all the l and d nodes and also via,   the Ibrance Toshiba for other nodes as well.   You are risking much more if you are trying to   close a channel with a previous state   for an offline peer of yours.   Because you don't know if there is a watchtower listening that you get justice justice transaction and you lose the whole,   channel or the or the whole content of the channel. If not, you might have, you know, the time for a forced close like 2 weeks   to wait   and hope that your your peer doesn't come online and broadcast the justice transaction   himself.  

So I think it's great to have deterrents,   but, I mean, you know, it won't be applied more until it's not incentivized. So you cannot, like, subscribe to, to a watchtower.  

[02:51:02] Unknown:

Yeah. No. No one's using Watchtowers. And,   I do.   Well, are you using Watchtower open arms? Of course. Oh, yeah. I mean, I pretend I'm using I'm also using 1. You know? Oh,   oh, you know, who knows? I'm not actually using one. If you're one of the few freaks that made it 3 hours in, I'm not using a watchtower. No one has fucked me yet. Okay?   I pretend I pretend on RHR that I'm using a watchtower because I don't want people to try and fuck me. But, like, let's be honest here. No one like, very few people are using watchtowers,   especially the tour only people.  

Oh, the tour why why Yeah. Anthony's, like, oh, yeah. I'm using one now. Yeah. Bullshit, bro. I don't believe you.  

[02:51:43] Unknown:

Okay? And guys, guys. But with the with all the exchanges coming on, though, there's gonna be more demand and infrastructure for the wall tower. So, hopefully,   we see more development on them. I think it's gonna  

[02:51:56] Unknown:

happen. So there is an issue in my in my repo, lightning lightning management repo, where there are, like, altruistic watch towers being listed, And those you can add add yourself and   and if you use them, just add your watchtower in as well and then, you know, we can cover each other.   And what I do if you if you have multiple nodes, just set them up to watch each other, especially if they are in 2 different You know, watch me?  

[02:52:21] Unknown:

Somebody Yeah. Will you watch me open arms if I give it to you?  

[02:52:25] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Of course. I you'd you don't need to give me anything. You know? You you can connect to my   watchtower. Okay. It's listed in that issue.  

[02:52:34] Unknown:

Okay. Well, I put it in the comments.   If you're watching this live, you can see it in the comments. If you're not watching live, please don't attack me.   I have a watchtower.   I I just pretended I didn't.  

[02:52:45] Unknown:

Yeah. The problem is that I'm not sure if I don't know. Even if you can correct me on it that it is   so it needs to know about all the previous states to be efficient. Right? Oh, I like this. I like this. If you connect Sorry.   Yeah.  

[02:53:01] Unknown:

Anthony made a good point. Like, me lying about not having a watchtower is profitable to me because if you try and attack me, I'm gonna take all your fucking sats.  

[02:53:11] Unknown:

Okay.  

[02:53:13] Unknown:

You get that justice. Come on.  

[02:53:17] Unknown:

So if if the watchtower doesn't know your previous states,   then when you connect new   to a watchtower with an already running node for, you know, months and, you know, thousands of states,   then would it communicate to   the old states to the rush tower or only the ones going forward?   That's a question to even even if you if you know the answer, but might not. Sorry. I got distracted by a freak on a side channel. Could you repeat that?   No. I'm I'm just wondering if you are if you are connecting to a VowSTAR with an old node, will will it communicate all the previous states or only the ones going forward?   That's a good question. I I don't know for sure. Yeah. I will as that's from the M and D devs, I guess.  



[02:54:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it depends on the implementation. I think,   for example, I have Satoshi probably,   behaved differently than the LND one.  

[02:54:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think we're just gonna blindly just hope that people just assume you have watchtowers,   and, like, maybe watchtowers happen.  

[02:54:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Let's just all lie about having watchtowers  

[02:54:22] Unknown:

and our whole I mean, the threat of a watch tower, like, you only need, like, a 10% possibility that a watch tower exists, and you don't do it because you'd lose the whole channel. Right?   Yes. Sea lightning has been discussing not losing the whole channel, which I think is a bad idea.   Right? Like, I think,   I I I like this overbearing punishment. Like, the punishment should be insane. The   really   fucking dick.  

[02:54:48] Unknown:

And then it it incentivizes people to just not even take the fucking risk. Yeah. That comes with that comes with l 2. So if it had l 2, which would need, you know, more soft works implemented in Bitcoin in Bitcoin base layer, you would,   not need to,   store the previous states. So that is a huge benefit of not not needing to store the previous states, but it also comes   with the trade off that there would be no justice transaction, only the lost transaction being   broadcasted if if the other party would try to cheat.   So, yeah, that's kind of a different technology.  



[02:55:31] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. No. Anthony called me out. Like, I did admit on RHR that I wasn't using your Watchtower, like, a month ago. And then a couple months ago, then I pretended after that that I was using Watchtower because it was risky.   But I still haven't lost any money. So, you know I'll I'll be a watchtower for you, Matt. Don't worry. I'll I'll look at it. I'm I'm messing with some watch tower attack. I actually I actually lost all my Bitcoin because of a watch tower attack. I'm just trying to build up again from 0. And, one day one day, hopefully, I will be a whole corner again.   I appreciate both of you guys. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been 3 fucking hours.  

This is the longest Citadel dispatch live.  

[02:56:13] Unknown:

We're supposed to be 1 hour when you Yeah. Well, that was never gonna happen, Evan, and we agreed.  

[02:56:20] Unknown:

I I I expect   I I one thing that's different on this show than other shows is that there's gonna be a lot of return guests, and Evan is gonna be a massive return guest. Open Arms is gonna be a master return guest. I I I love both of you guys.   You people are are why I Bitcoin. I enjoy fucking shooting the shit with you guys, and that's what the show is about. So, like, let's just have some fun with it. Fuck yeah. Be better Bitcoiners.   I think an idea that is kinda cool,   and I I think is a cool concept to end the show with,   going forward, in the least until the state just realized I'm doing it,   is I I'm curious from both of your perspectives,   how would you kill Bitcoin?  

And we we can start   with   open  

[02:57:09] Unknown:

arms.   Yeah. I would incentivize people to to put money on exchanges   by making the environment very friendly and then suddenly just cut it off.   Like,   take it away from you.  

[02:57:30] Unknown:

Okay.   So how would you incentivize,  

[02:57:34] Unknown:

exchanges? Like, how do you doing that? Like, I would pay interest, would make it very friendly. I would stop all KIC bullshit.  

[02:57:42] Unknown:

Like, 6% interest or something?  

[02:57:45] Unknown:

Yep. Yep. For example, that's a good idea. Re rehypothecate  

[02:57:48] Unknown:

as well. Again, kind of, like, website, like blockfi.com   or something, like, you'd offer?  

[02:57:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Cheap cheap cheap credits. Cheap credit if you deposit Bitcoin   on a on a government exchange, make it very friendly, you know, minimum KYC,   very smooth,   and   may give no reason for people to to   to withdraw   other than their,   you know, principles.   And then,   yeah, just turn on it and   confuse it.  

[02:58:20] Unknown:

Well, I think that's an interesting thing you mentioned there,   low KYC. Like, on the Bitcoin deposit point, you can make it no KYC. And then when they wanna withdraw, then you put the KYC. Right?   But you shouldn't do it because, you know, you should they shouldn't think that it will be a problem because then they're gonna put it in user the user like, you just give them, like, no KYC when they deposit the Bitcoin. And then when they wanna withdraw the Bitcoin and actually take money into their own hands, that's when you give them the KYC. You're like, you you fucking really dig it in.  

[02:58:50] Unknown:

Yeah. And and then make them make them pay,   taxes on the unrealized income.   No.   No. No. That would work the other way. So so you would you would want to appear very very friendly and, you know, like, this is the most   natural   thing of   the world, how it works. Everyone uses Bitcoin and then,   you know, just the next   Jewish decision comes, for example, in the US or whatever and just turn the corner.   That's why, I mean, that's why actually   some attacks are useful,   shouldn't destroy, but everything which doesn't kill it makes it stronger. Right?  

[02:59:34] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that that attack's happening right now, so cheers.   Evan, you got something for us?  

[02:59:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I I would say trying to coop the protocol with a hard fork and trying to steer in the direction, something like we'd see   with Bitcoin Cash or BSV, but, you know can still happen. You're a bunch of fucking idiots, so that's not what's happening.   I would say probably   try to pump something like Ethereum, but that would require getting it to actually fucking work.   And we also got a bailout in that, Putin did a deal with Vitalik, so I don't really see the the West,   putting,   their currencies on Ethereum. So we got we got really helped out there as well.   Guys, this thing is gonna be is near unstoppable. Let's fucking get Schnorr and Taproot merged in,   and   we're gonna win so hard. You're gonna be sick of fucking winning.  

Thank you,  

[03:00:32] Unknown:

So he didn't answer that question. So I just gotta keep that in mind if I ask that question in the future. I liked Vidalik as a   as a slur. I don't know. Like, his name is Vitalik.   Like, I don't like him as much as the next guy, but you pronounce the name incorrectly.   I appreciate both of you guys.   I love you guys. You guys contribute so much to the Bitcoin space, and I appreciate the fuck out of it because I think, ultimately,   if we want a better future, what we need is free open source software. We need open hardware   alongside that shit.  

We need to be able to prove and verify everything we fucking run.   I need people to stand up. We need to stand up together.   Ultimately, we can stand up by ourselves, but we need people to stand up together. I have Open Arms and Evan Kaloudis here. That's at openoms,   open o m s,   on Twitter,   and at   Evan Kaloudis, k a l o u d I s, on Twitter. Follow them.   Enjoy it. Just so have a let's have a fucking good time.   I appreciate all you freaks. Thank you for joining us for 3 fucking hours if you're still here on the live show. You guys are the fucking   you just you guys are fucking awesome. I look forward to fucking chilling with you every fucking week, every fucking Bitcoin Tuesday for the rest of this fucking year. I look forward to having Open Arms and Evan back here,   on this fucking show because,   this show is just about   enjoying the time of the boys.  

So cheers to all you freaks.   Stay humble, and stack stats.  

[03:02:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Thank you so much.   Peace, guys. Love y'all.   Some cat was laying down some. Get it all rock and roll, he said.   Then the loud sound, it seemed to fie, hey, hey. It came back like a slow voice on a wave of thigh. Hi. Hey. Is that  

[03:05:50] Unknown:

Love you, freaks.   Enjoy the week, and stay humble. Stack sets.