Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 59
BLOCK: 727490
PRICE: 2529 sats per dollar
TOPICS: privacy, open source software, information velocity, signal through the noise, wasabi blacklisting, nyms, social media, tradeoffs, personal responsibility, support your tribe

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[00:00:01] Unknown:

Published then removed comments on an upcoming executive order on cryptocurrencies.   The prices jumped on that, release, and now the details of the actual executive order   are out and even   you can remove it a lot. It's like when I delete a tweet, you know, when I think better of something. Someone's got it already. I it's like too late. You know, once you've done it, you've done it. And I saw the executive order, and it was like, you know, exactly what you would have thought. We wanna make it safe for investors. We wanna lead in innovation, but, we wanna make sure we have the right kind of regulation that protects people. We wanna, you know, protect the environment. All the normal things that but not very specific,   I don't think, about how you're gonna do all that.  



[00:00:44] Unknown:

Right. What they're saying is that this is responsible innovation. President Biden will sign this executive order today   calling for just that in the crypto industry.   The White House is directing a government wide audit of the risk and potential benefits focused on a list of 6 key priorities, and those are consumer and investor protection, financial stability,   illicit finance,   US competitiveness,   equity and inclusion,   and a host of other factors like privacy, security, and climate. Now treasury is tasked with developing policy recommendations for the industry as well as issuing a report on the future of money and on payment systems. The commerce department would take the lead on creating a framework for the best ways to use the technology,   and the administration is encouraging regulators   to provide sufficient   oversight and safeguard against systemic risk. Now this order calls understanding how a central bank digital currency might work urgent, but a senior administration official said that foreign CBDC do not pose a threat to the dollar. The White House said that they were having extensive engagement with the industry before announcing this directive,   and in fact, they started calling those weekend meetings crypto Sundays.  

So as you mentioned, the initial response   to the,   inaccurately posted or incorrectly posted treasury   statement was positive. But now that folks can dig the details, we'll see if that sentiment holds. It just seems  

[00:02:42] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.   Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   That clip you saw   just previously was about the executive order,   that appears to be a massive nothing burger,   and they were talking about it on CNBC. That was the US executive order.   If you're joining us here live, you're either joining us on Twitch at twitch.tv/sitoldispatchorviabitcointv.com.   If you just click civil dispatch after you go to bitcointv.com,   you can see the stream there as well,   and on Twitter.  

Dispatches also broadcast to your favorite podcast app after the show with all archives   video archives posted to bitcoin tv.com.   I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show, keeping dispatch a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors, purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.   Really could not do it without you.   Also wanna thank all the freaks who joined us in the live chat, which is self hosted on Matrix.   You can get to that live chat by going to citadel dispatch.com   and clicking that big citadel chat link,   on the site.  

Our live chat now has over 900 ride or die Bitcoiners   that are constantly having really great   discussion throughout the week, not just on Tuesdays for the show. So be sure to join us.   I know it might sound complicated because   the the name is called Matrix, and I said the word self hosted, but it's actually rather simple. So if you just click that link and and follow the steps, I I have faith that you can figure it out. Like I said, over 900 other people figured it out.   The two easiest ways to support the show is either going to ciel dispatch.com   and,   clicking our BTC pay link there. You can you can send,   either on chain Bitcoin or Bitcoin via lightning.  

I also have,   my samurai payment there and my which links to my BIV 47 payment code. If you know what that means,   it means you can send me on chain payments via either Samura1 or Sparrow.   The other easy way to support the show, which a lot of freaks seem to be enjoying, is podcasting 2 point o apps. They they work like a regular podcasting app,   but you're able to load them up with sats and choose how many sats per minute you think,   dispatch is worth. And then as you're listening,   it will literally stream sats directly to my node. Every day of the week, I, like, open up.   I I I go and look at my node, and I just see,   you know, 1 sat, 2 sat just coming in every minute.  

It's it's not necessarily much, but it's, extremely rewarding,   just just seeing you guys listening and supporting at the same time.   And on that note,   it's come to my attention that,   since dispatch is one of the most popular shows on fountain podcasts   so my 2 favorite podcasting 2.0 apps are fountain podcasts   and Breeze Wallet, and it's come to my attention that Fountain Podcast is running a promotion.   So if you listen to any episode of dispatch through fountain podcast and you're a new user,   I believe they are going to send you a 1,000 free sats,   and one random person at the end of the month will get 50,000 sets.  

So just keep that in mind if you haven't checked out fountain. One disclaimer on that fountain thing is right now as it stands,   it is a custodial wallet, so don't put too much money into it,   and it does require an email address. So consider the privacy implications of providing an email address, maybe make a burner email or something like that.   Okay.   With all that said, I know I was a little rough around the edges on that intro.   This is still dispatch 59.   We have the 1 and only rockstar dev,   famously known for his work on BTC pay server and now strike here to join us for the 2nd time ever.   What's up, rock star? How's it going?  



[00:07:06] Unknown:

Whenever I'm with you, Matt, it's going amazing   here to   encourage and inspire, as I said, in our exchange when you were announcing this   podcast.  

[00:07:20] Unknown:

Love you, bro. Do you remember what episode,   you were on originally?  

[00:07:26] Unknown:

Well, I don't remember the number, but I remember being with Suheb and talking about lightning   and RTL and all that stuff.   And then   by 12 Citadel dispatch.com/cd12.  

[00:07:41] Unknown:

If you haven't listened to that, that was a really fun rip.  

[00:07:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. You just okay. Now I know it's inverse of 21. It's 12. I did I did duck, duck, goose it. I'm not on Lavera, so I don't remember  

[00:07:55] Unknown:

I don't remember all the not only not only do I not remember all my episodes, I don't prepare before my episodes, so I didn't look it up at the time.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

Listen, we can't all be polished, Estefan. I mean, come on. That angel voice when he sings,   maybe we should play some clip of him singing, and then, you know, it can inspire you and me to be better, like, do more. If you haven't seen Stefan,  

[00:08:20] Unknown:

at 2 in the morning doing karaoke, are are you even a big winner?   Yeah.  

[00:08:26] Unknown:

I'm so glad that we are so early, like, already asking the questions that really matter because  

[00:08:35] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I I have a feeling that this conversation so the topic of this conversation is the viral nature of information and the power of open source software.   I feel like   there's been a lot of darkness lately in terms of, like, the news and current events   and things that impact sovereignty and privacy,   So I have a feeling that this conversation is gonna get   pretty solemn really quickly. Not hopeless,   but solemnly optimistic.   So, like, on that note, like, it's kinda nice to, you know, start it up with a bit of of cheer.   So I think bringing up Stephan's beautiful voice is is one aspect of that, but another is right before he went live.  

I know you're a relatively new American,   but it appears that the US government   what?  

[00:09:28] Unknown:

Docs. But, yeah, let's keep going. Yeah.  

[00:09:31] Unknown:

The US government,   did   the most effective thing they've done in my whole lifetime, which was repeal their horrible policy of time changes twice a year.   So now we will not have time changes anymore is my understanding.  

[00:09:48] Unknown:

Oh my god. I missed that one. Like, is it real? Or you're like, an hour ago. I'm I'm like, I'm pretty sure I did, like, a triple  

[00:09:54] Unknown:

triple double triple check, triple double check. I did a I did a 6 time check,   and, I'm pretty sure it passed the house and the senate, and we're good to go. In typical US fashion or typical government fashion, it's permanent daylight savings time. They couldn't just do permanent time,   but at least there'll be no time switch.  

[00:10:14] Unknown:

Well, this is also why it's great that you're doing this,   this podcast with the live chat, live audience. See? Like, we are we get connected in the real time. Just said? Yeah. It's, like, only senate does not house yet. Yeah.  

[00:10:29] Unknown:

I'm pretty sure how the house passed it. Did the house not pass it? Does it all do things always go to senate first and then house? I don't know how it works.  

[00:10:36] Unknown:

Matt. Matt. What you need to embrace is the fact that you're a dream boy. So you see you see the future road   No, no, it will,   it is passing the house as well, man. Just you see the future and that's why also people love you. And that's why it's so hard on you because you see the best possible futures   and then the rest of us can't live up to that standard. But as I said, no worries.   I'm here to talk about all of that because you you scared me, man. You you said,   government and I immediately thought we were going to, like, discuss this bill, whatever it is.  

[00:11:12] Unknown:

Which one?  

[00:11:14] Unknown:

The one that's   about,   regulating   crypto currencies? Like, what is that   the the one you played in the intro video?  

[00:11:24] Unknown:

That was the executive order that Biden,   Biden, like, pulled to Justin Sun. He did an announcement of an announcement.  

[00:11:34] Unknown:

No, man. I'm telling you, as as soon as I now see equity and inclusion in in paragraph, I'm like, okay. They ran out of ideas, like what to add here, but they needed announce announcement of something. Oh, yeah. I mean, before we continue, I just wanna say that if if the house doesn't fucking do this, I'm gonna take  

[00:11:52] Unknown:

I'm gonna feel personally guilty that I jinxed it. I'm I'm a strong believer in the jinx.   You you wanna you wanna bet? So if we do get rug pulled if we do get rug pulled on this, I'm gonna say that,   that that that's on me, freaks, and I apologize.  

[00:12:08] Unknown:

No. We we can bet it's it's being it's getting past. I can win the same way. Inside man?   I just believe in your visions, man. And I believe in you, so   I know what's what's happening. And   I as you said, I'm involved with BTC based server. I'm involved with Strike. I can recognize   correct vision early on. So  

[00:12:32] Unknown:

yeah. Okay. Well, BTC PINs is saying that it'd be weird if the house held it up. The senate passed it unanimously. So,   fingers crossed.   I guess my fact checking was absolutely abysmal then, but I was rushing to get dispatch up. So   there's that. So let's talk about this executive order. Do you have any thoughts on it? Did you look into it at all? Or   it doesn't say Bitcoin once in the whole executive order.  

[00:13:01] Unknown:

My,   my only comment is is what that,   what is, like, rich dad, poor dad. He he was he explained it the best.   It's like everything   piled on and,   doesn't make any sense. I'm telling you at this point,   we're just living in in completely   information   mad world, and politicians are just announcing thing after thing after thing that doesn't mean anything.  

[00:13:29] Unknown:

Except for the permanent no time change thing.  

[00:13:34] Unknown:

That's why I was so surprised when you announced it to, like, thank God. So something useful after It seems so practically useful. Right? Just, like, don't don't fuck with my time twice a year.  

[00:13:47] Unknown:

Now I want us to the next thing is we just need a standard time zone. What do you what do you think about the standard time zone idea?  

[00:13:54] Unknown:

So   what is it like?  

[00:13:57] Unknown:

It We're just all in the same time zone.   No. I mean, ideally, I want it to be global, but if if not global, like, at least America is just all on one time zone.  

[00:14:09] Unknown:

No. No.  

[00:14:12] Unknown:

Was What does it matter what the number is on your watch when it's dark or when it's light? It should just be the same number regardless if you're in in New York or Texas or   I mean, no one should be in California.  

[00:14:25] Unknown:

Because when you when you start to travel   around the world, it would be completely like crazy,   this way what you do,   because you would have people   used  

[00:14:37] Unknown:

to 2 AM, meaning something completely different than another person, like, is But if you got if you got on a plane and flew 7 hours, you would land   7 hours later than when you got on the plane.  

[00:14:51] Unknown:

No. You're optimizing the wrong thing. No. It's like   the we spent 1,000,000 of years   in   certain   rhythm and just changing that rhythm because it's a marginal gain for, for something like, you know, flying across.  

[00:15:09] Unknown:

It is. It is. No. You shouldn't do that. I mean, you work you you work on 2 remote projects. Right? Strike is Mhmm. Got a lot of remote employees, I presume, and I know BTCPay has a lot of contributors from around the world. Yeah.   Isn't it a fucking pain in the ass coordinating   what what time zone you're talking about and stuff? Like, what time is it here? What time is it there?  

[00:15:35] Unknown:

No. No. You you just get used to   the tools, like,   every time zone, use calendar.   It's just you use tool to abstract that in a much better way, because   otherwise, when when I would say, oh, it's 9 AM here and I'm just waking up, then that would have completely different   meaning for people that would have, oh, I'm waking up at 2 AM. So no.  

[00:16:02] Unknown:

Sorry. Engineering is rejecting your, you know, full request. Well, I'm gonna continue with UTC as my standard time. And, whoever wants to join me whoever wants to join me can join me. I do announce dispatch.   I use eastern time and UTC time when I when I announce dispatch.  

[00:16:21] Unknown:

Here we go.   You go with your standard and see how many people will join you because,   when it comes to using UTC,   that's one of the engineering best practices because you always use UTC. The  

[00:16:35] Unknown:

whole world to just use fucking UTC.  

[00:16:38] Unknown:

No. No. That's why you have front end, and then,   front end developers do the whole load, detect in which time zone the device is, and   display it nicely for the user. We have a freak saying,  

[00:16:51] Unknown:

Nick b is saying that time should be measured in block height.   My personal belief is that block height should be past times,   and in the when you're talking about present or future times, you should be using UTC because block height, you you know, it's a poison distribution or   poisson. I don't know how to pronounce it. So you don't really know when the block's gonna come in. You need, like, an   actual objective time period for when you're gonna meet someone. You can't be like, I'm gonna meet you in 3 blocks, and you don't know when they're gonna come in.  

[00:17:24] Unknown:

Yeah. But I'm I'm telling you, like, I I do like that idea because   the way humanity advances is through those paradigm shifts and,   simply   clocks and times,   and in time zones, they are too embedded into our current system. So if we do come up with, like, completely new system,   I am more for that. But,   going back to the topic of this podcast, like that's exactly no. But that's   and it's extremely   hard, and and we are optimizing   beyond the point of usefulness. So   yeah.  

[00:18:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I feel that.   Mhmm. Okay. So executive order to me was just,   was was mostly just like politicians patting themselves on the back saying, like, oh, like, we're taking this, quote, unquote, crypto thing seriously. Look. We have an executive order. We're doing things. But   it was really a a nothing burger in terms of, like, actual   practice.  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

That's absolutely what it was.  

[00:18:43] Unknown:

But,   on on the opposite side,   I mean,   would you agree that just this whole idea   of of even, like,   taking the time to   maybe worry about politics or try and change politics is   pretty much a wasted effort, and the focus should be more on   on on building code and running code and   and actionable changes that we can do as individuals.  

[00:19:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I,   I do think we all need to recognize   the   impact that politicians and politics have on our daily life,   but absolutely, yeah, work in direction where   it doesn't really. I mean, you know, you just   donate, like,   US is so great as you because you already doxed me as a new American man. Like, back in Europe, we call that corruption. Here, it's like   lobbying,   whatever it is. Corruption. Right? It's just a different word. It's such a better word, man. It's like lobbying for a goal. No. It's it's beautiful. Like, I'm telling you marketing, and then how you wrap it is, like, all the difference.  

[00:19:59] Unknown:

This is not a bribe. This is just fundraising.  

[00:20:02] Unknown:

Yes. And you know, it's,   yeah, don't, don't even get me started because I'll just go off rails. But for me,   it's just recognizing   what has impact on you and,   trying to build an environment in which everything that impacts you   is, is, is kind of you, you opted into it   because that's,   that's in a nutshell, why, why also privacy is so important.   Whatever is public   and involves   everyone.   It   suddenly you have so many things to worry about,   but things that are private that are between certain parties, it's much more elegant system.   And,   yeah, I'm looking forward to 2 of us discussing   the history of, like, how how we,   where we started,   what was the development, how we got here because   it all also has to do with the speed of information.  

Privacy   like, when people talk about privacy and how things were better   back in the day, I always respond. It wasn't, it's just that   if you   did something terrible, I like made a stupid decision. It wasn't on internet for everyone to, to record it   and be like with a crypto deleted tweets on whatever.   Now now it's just information is so much faster. Information can be killed,   and privacy   importance of privacy grows in, like, order of magnitude,   including the   acts by politicians. So look really looking forward to discussing that with you.  

[00:21:50] Unknown:

But it's interesting. Right? Because it's like,   I mean, information   is is inherently viral, and it's more viral than ever   in this connected world that we have.   But but the we're kind of in a situation right now, right, where we have a flood of information. Right? And it's hard. Yeah. A lot of times, it's hard to verify sources.   I mean, you just saw I just did a very lazy, I guess, a very lazy job of verifying my sources   for this daylight savings thing, but you have, like, you know, these all caps Twitter accounts that just post things without sources.   Then people retweet them, then other people copy their tweet or reuse that tweet as a source, and then there's Photoshop and   VideoShop or whatever,   video deep fakes.  

It's it's almost harder than ever to actually   verify information.   Yep. And you just so much noise.  

[00:22:56] Unknown:

And you just talked about this with, Marty on TFTC, man.   You said it yourself. Like,   not everything is a psy op,   and it's   making critical tinker thinkers like you burn out.  

[00:23:10] Unknown:

The psy op is that everything's a psy op.  

[00:23:14] Unknown:

Yeah. But,   PSIOP is not PSIOP   rather. It's just that information velocity is too much.   Yeah. It's it's what you said about like being a critical thinker, which you are. You are, you are one of the best we have in Bitcoin,   but the critical thinkers need time to process those, you know, important questions like who, what, where, when, why, how. Like, you need to ask, okay, who benefits from this? Then you need to think about it.   But  

[00:23:48] Unknown:

then you get executive order, then you get this, then you get that. And Right. It's like you're just reacting, and then everything is just, like, as quick as possible, react, react, react, react, and then you're onto the next thing. React, react, react.  

[00:24:01] Unknown:

Exactly. And,   that's the beauty of of privacy of Bitcoin, really, because it allows you to to disconnect   and   not   worry, especially when we do get on on Bitcoin standard.   No longer will we   need to follow. K. Yeah. Politicians just gathered together   and got 21% increase. I mean, is that verified?   Because I found that one phenomenal.   Like   with Bitcoin, 21,000,000,   but they also increased their salaries by 21%.  

[00:24:37] Unknown:

I I love their salaries by 21%?  

[00:24:40] Unknown:

Senate.   BTC pins. Can we get   fact checkers?  

[00:24:46] Unknown:

Politics fact checker.   I didn't hear that.  

[00:24:51] Unknown:

You  

[00:24:53] Unknown:

you see I believe that their their salary should be reversed pegged to inflation. So as inflation increases, they should go   they should go down by the inflation rate.   That I feel like that would be a cool rule.   No. They definitely like Watch inflation get get squashed if they if that rule ever got passed.   So, I mean, that that's one of the I mean, you mentioned something there and and, you know, to me, that's always been one of the really cool aspects of Bitcoin   and really just a free open source software movement in general, but just this idea of objective truth.   Right? This idea that,   I don't know if there's any real other objective truth,   besides something that you can actually verify yourself   and know that it hasn't been fucked with.  

And, you know, Bitcoin   encapsulates   that on even a grander scale than, I would say, other free open source software and the fact that,   you have this idea of proof of work. Right? And you have this idea   of   of of that, you know, this this chain is   is is backed by that work, and it's   it's it hasn't been tampered with. It hasn't been fucked with. There's there's no corruption at the base level.  

[00:26:12] Unknown:

Yep.   Exactly. Because,   I have this weekly discussion with my   most successful nephew, Jack Mallers, and we were talking about, like, what is it   that that gives value? And it is that proof of work,  

[00:26:33] Unknown:

We got a freaking,   sorry to cut you off, from Twitch that says   21%   increase  

[00:26:43] Unknown:

There we go. Members representational  

[00:26:45] Unknown:

allowance,   but I don't think it's been passed.   Well, we will see as as our It's in the omnibus bill. You know, they, like, make these massive bills that have to pass,   so it'll probably it'll probably get I don't know which one of them would vote against it. Like, why wouldn't, why would they vote against their own pay raise? I'm surprised they didn't make it more.  

[00:27:06] Unknown:

Well, there there are like   few shreds of credibility   and actual altruism left, I would say, because you saw the, the, the bill   read the bill bill   that, that wanted to cap. Like, if your bill is like 100,   well, 100,000   pages, like we need at least like   10 days to read it.   You saw that 1 or no? Did that pass?  

[00:27:34] Unknown:

No. It was just, like, proposed, but it's like it would but that's the thing. That's like a pat yourself on the back bill. Right? Like they know it's not gonna fucking pass and then they get to go and tell their constituent. It's like this executive order to go and tell their constituents, look, I care. I'm doing things.  

[00:27:47] Unknown:

I actually like that bill because if there is a bill that's 2,000 pages   and it passes in matter of, like, 17 hours. Like like who read that?  

[00:28:00] Unknown:

You know? No one read that.   It's fucking insane. I mean, 2,000 pages is small, I think. Like, these omnibus bills are, like,   80,000, a 100,000 pages.  

[00:28:13] Unknown:

That's exactly where we need to step in, like like, all of us and start acknowledging   failures because otherwise, like this whole world with information velocity   is definitely going to hell. I mean, we, we are just jumping from one thing to the other. Like you, you start looking at the world and it's like   1 giant teenage   ADA   ADHD, man. Like whatever,   whatever goes, basically it's that latest meme. I support the current thing. It's just   exhausting for everyone. And and   I do expect yeah.   Well,   people that are in in like really have power and really have influence, really have money.   They're already out of the system because this current system is   completely unsustainable.  

It's just   people that are in it. Don't have   guts,  

[00:29:09] Unknown:

courage to to recognize it. And yeah. But but, yeah, it's What what what can what can the freaks do in this environment? What can I do in this environment? Because I'm definitely feeling   fatigued by it.  

[00:29:23] Unknown:

Well, because you say this is always actionable Bitcoin discussion, I had a proposal for today's action for everyone,   that's listening or will listen,   and that is   establish your new digital identity,   which is what I will be well, I already did it. I have few,   but,   yeah, let's let's get that over with because,   we mentioned Stephane in the intro.   Yes. Big news, breaking news. We can now tweet breaking.   Rockstar is dying.   And,   I was already telling you Rockstar.   The funeral. Yes. And now date is set. It's August 13th.  

[00:30:11] Unknown:

So You've set the date already.  

[00:30:15] Unknown:

Well, it's it's good to know when you when you will die,   but I wanted to   I wanted to formally invite you to give Eulogy,   UTC, of course. We'll go with UTC,   but   formally invite you to give Eulogy. You'll be the speaker.   Livera is singing. He's already in. Okay.  

[00:30:36] Unknown:

I'm done. So so, I mean   so you're gonna you're still gonna be around. You're just gonna be operating on the other nims.   Right?  

[00:30:45] Unknown:

Well,   we'll see. We'll see.  

[00:30:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, I don't want the freaks to, like, start sending you flowers or whatever. Like, save your sets. Of course. No. No. They should send He's not physically dying.  

[00:30:59] Unknown:

Yes. They they should send hats, not flowers. Send hats.   This is the latest hat present from   my dear Benz.  

[00:31:08] Unknown:

So I wanted to talk about this. I mean, so you you mentioned it as a,   as an actual thing, and I think this is this is an important exercise. I mean, it's I think   I think people, if they haven't yet, should, you know,   like, start getting your hands dirty, like, play around, make nims.   Like, it doesn't have to be perfect in the beginning.   Disposable NIMs, change them up. And when we say NIMs,   we it's short for pseudonyms. So, you know, not your real name,   not your real picture,   not attached to your, you know, the Gmail address that I hope you're not using for absolutely every account you sign up to,   not attached to your phone number that you've used since you were 10 years old,   that is basically acts like a Social Security number and ties all your identities together.  

Like, start practicing playing around with with this as a concept.   I mean, I think everyone should.   But on the on the Bitcoin side, I mean, I actually wanted to talk to you about this because I was discussing this with a bunch of freaks   in the Citadel chat, in the Matrix chat earlier today,   in particular about the whole Wasabi thing, which, I mean, we can get to as well, but let's get to this first. Do you   do you think   that just as a as a industry   in general, like, as a community in general, we just don't,   we have too many known figures and too few NIMs.  

Like, do you especially, like, in the, like, core dev community and whatnot.  

[00:32:46] Unknown:

Yes. Absolutely.   Because it's   game theory is skewed toward identities.   Like,   how how do you even get on these podcasts   if if you're NIM and you do want to, you know,   preserve your privacy. And even podcast is cool, but how do you get on the stage of a conference   and give a talk?   Which is why I've been doing this. Figured that out.   What?  

[00:33:15] Unknown:

Gigi figured that out with his green suit on stage.  

[00:33:20] Unknown:

Yeah. He took it to the next level. So,   I,   what I am doing is I have every   public appearance like that. I am wearing a mask. It's like 2 2 in 1 because it also triggers everyone   that's against max mask mandates.  

[00:33:36] Unknown:

But couldn't you also just have, like,   like, rock star reincarnates and then dies again? You could just, like, have like, the second coming of rock star or the third coming of rock star.  

[00:33:49] Unknown:

Well, maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Because   we were I I was mentioning funeral also in the context of, like, how do you slow down that information velocity and and like dying is definitely one of the ways which I would recommend, but then also it does free you up.   And,   I always talk about like, okay, rockstar dev.   And, man, I've I've had people from, like, Silicon Valley companies. Like, they're coming on a call with me, and then they will be like, ah, rock star.   But   it gives you opportunity to, like, tweak your identity because look at my NIM, look at your NIM.   Like, yours is so much better.  

So   one of the things that when I'm   experimenting with NIMs down the road is, like, I I'm going to go with something that can   pass by for for, like, a real name.  

[00:34:43] Unknown:

Yeah. It always works better.  

[00:34:45] Unknown:

It's like, yeah, people are like,   that's the real name. I was like, no, it's not. So  

[00:34:50] Unknown:

I,   so, I mean, one of the when you mentioned podcasts,   I mean, one of the reasons I launched dispatch was to get more exposure to NIMs.   It is a, you know, voice only show, no video,   so it's more NIM friendly in in that respect.   There is some risk of of of doxing your voice. Like, I mean, if you if you come on the, you know, Citadel dispatch   78 or something,   under a different NIM, like, I think it'll be pretty fucking obvious to people that it's you.   So some NIMs, like, 6102,   I see someone in the comments was asking about where to get burner numbers. Silent.link   is a really   good option that works really well that's Bitcoin only,   doesn't take other identification   information.  

I asked the lead dev of that to come on. He was like, I don't wanna dox my voice.   The lead dev of cypherpunkpay.org,   didn't wanna come on for the same reasons, But that's also why,   I take a lot of pride in being,   the only Live Bitcoin show with a chat that's streamed directly into,   all of our streams   and archived forever because it means that people can participate,   through text,   through the live chat. So 6102   used to participate a lot before he   had his digital death.   Maybe he's still participating under a different NIM, but, that that was one of the main reasons why I started dispatch and why dispatch is set up the way it is set up.   Conferences is is a whole different thing. I mean, I I think there is a very big,   there's a you know, if if you care about privacy,   it's really hard to do in person events, large in person events, period. Gigi has kind of figured it out   to a degree with the green suit,   but it's just everything has trade offs. Right? So you have to assess those risks, and you have to decide what you wanna do. I mean, I do think   meeting up in person is extremely powerful. I mean, we met in person,   what feels like a decade ago, but it was, like, 3 years ago, I think,   And, you know, that was a you know, I had a great time with you, and I got to know you much better as a person, and we got to have conversations at pubs at 3 in the morning that you'll never have online.  

I think you can get a lot of that out of local meetups. That's why I'm big supporter of local meetups, and I think local meetups should have no video and no photo policies,   or at least some of them, the ones that I support, I prefer that they do.   So that's, like, a nice middle ground, I would say. And, I mean, you don't show up as, you know, don't, like, walk up to someone and be, like, this is my NIM,   because that kinda defeats the purpose a little bit. But if you don't do that, they'll have no idea.  

[00:37:47] Unknown:

Yeah. But there is a beauty of   that selectively   revealing yourself. Good. Right?  

[00:37:54] Unknown:

Yeah. It's I love these people introduce me. Like, they're, like, Matt, like, huge fan. Like, I'm Paul, like, blah blah blah, and I just, like, oh, like, great to meet you. Blah blah blah. And then, like, they dropped their name. I was, like, oh, shit, dude. Look, fantastic to fucking finally meet you.   I was like, you should've led with that.  

[00:38:11] Unknown:

It's like, yeah. You're glad to meet me. I'm, like, glad to meet you, man. It's   it's beautiful.   And you were saying such a great things about, the setup for Citadel dispatch and   their their their I'm is a problem. Look at my setup.   Like I I'm   you set this up for voice only, and I have such a beautiful camera and  

[00:38:44] Unknown:

Rockstar has his iconic,   money burning background   with a silhouette of his face and body, so you can't actually see him.   So you actually have figured out a hack to the shows that that require video. I mean, most shows nowadays, I feel like require video,   But on dispatch, you're the exception.  

[00:39:05] Unknown:

Yeah. And then it gets into the whole   how do you,   build reputation? Because it's all about that.   Right. And,   kinda   convention,   normie convention is that that reputation involves a   government issued   ID, first name, last name, your appearance, your,   and,   I   very much look   toward that being changed because,   hey, if I, if I gave my first name, last name, it wouldn't mean anything to   tons of people now.   Like they know me by, by this digital identity   and my reputation is, is bound to that.   So it is about figuring out that reputation building   and, and kind of tweaking the existing   systems and events like Bitcoin conference that's coming up to also be   friendly in that regard because we we will need it in in the future. And then there there is also also a challenge of different mediums. Some people are better at   presenting on stage. Some people are better at podcasts. Some people are better at writing.  

But   the the more we can facilitate   these different   methods of building reputation   in the   the   the the more people   we will be able to leverage   into,   you know, creating better future   because   so many people are opting out   out of existing systems because they're inherently   stupid.   You know, like you need to submit a credit  

[00:40:52] Unknown:

credit score to, like, get a job and and BS like that, man. It's ridiculous. I saw I saw someone on Twitter who was complaining that they applied to a job, and they did, like, a they made him hand over, like, social media handles, and they did, like, social media check.   I mean, you see, obviously,   most freaks have probably tried to rent an apartment, and they asked you, like, your whole fucking life to rent an apartment.   Like, all these and and there's so many different things where, like, you can't even it's very difficult to live a normal life   without handling, you know, handing this this personal identifiable information everywhere you go.  

Even things as, you know, like the driver's license process, or if you wanna register to vote or something, like, privacy is the last thing,   that those policies take in mind, and and in fact, they tend to do the exact opposite.   Traveling nowadays, you know, we talk about travel restrictions getting worse.   Well, it's, like, pretty much impossible to, you know,   travel by plane right now without just pulling your pants down   and giving them absolutely everything,   especially if you're crossing a border.   It's a fucking mess, but I will say on one positive   note that I've noticed, just to fall onto the kids these days memes,   I don't know if you've noticed this because it's I mean, I don't I don't think it's really a a topic that neither of us really follow deeply, but what I've noticed is   esports   esports and drone racing, which is what a lot of kids do now. It's like a big it's it's   really growing industry.  

Like, the best players in the world of both of those   tend to be NIMs. They default to NIMs.   Now once they've become, like, top 10 in the world, they're on, like, ESPN   7 and   their face is on screen.   But up until that point, they're nims, and when they announce them, they're like, this guy just won the championship. They don't say, like,   you know, Paul Jones. They say, you   know, rabid tiger or whatever his name is.  

[00:43:03] Unknown:

On ESPN  

[00:43:04] Unknown:

7. Yeah. Yeah. You get, like, docs for ESPN 7, man. That's how we have fallen. One day one day, you know, as esports grows, they'll get to, you know, ESPN 2 and then maybe ESPN 1 eventually.  

[00:43:19] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. Because to   me,   that will be the also the measure of quality of the world,   and well, not the world. Well, specific environment with which we are talking about.   Because,   I'm telling you, I I so long for   America of nineties. I wish I was here back then   because   it it's just like all these   additional   things that were added  

[00:43:50] Unknown:

after 911 and, like, extra check, extra check, extra check. Combination of, like, 911 and just, like, the digitization   of the world. Right?  

[00:44:00] Unknown:

And COVID 911.  

[00:44:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And then COVID COVID ex extenuated it or increased it.   COVID, I mean, none of it has to be a lot of it, like, a lot of it isn't   necessarily just government policies. Right? Like, so so you have   people voluntarily   people voluntarily   hand out all this information for convenience. Right? It's a trade off between privacy and convenience. They walk around with phones that are tracking them. They have wiretaps in their house. They're sending their DNA out to services so they can see,   a nice pie chart of of where they come from.   And and we have this confluence of things where governments have always tried to track,   their subjects.  

They might call you citizens, but they've always tried to track their subjects because surveillance gives you the ultimate control. Knowing things about people gives you the ultimate control.   But on top of that now, we have companies   so on the on the government side, you know, we're we're we're, like,   essentially treated like data slaves, where they're just trying to   take as much information as possible,   think what we're thinking, use it against us,   constantly be a step ahead, and corral us. And then on the corporate side, we're like cattle or crops. They're like harvesting our data for monetization.   They make tons of money off of us. We're like a re we're a resource to them. We're a resource that can be harvested, our private information.  

And then governments use that   monetization   scheme, all that data that the comp the companies are getting, and they it amplifies everything. It's just, you know, massive circular feedback loop. And we didn't, you know, even without 911 or whatever, like, we didn't have that,   it it just it wasn't there. That that mechanism,   that whole corporate infrastructure of tracking people,   through digital means just didn't really exist yet.  

[00:46:03] Unknown:

And it was developed so quickly.   Yeah. That's where I think a lot of your   how do you say the conversation will turn solemn. Right?   That's where I think, like, a lot of your sadness is coming   through because as a critical thinker, you see all of this as you're like cattle.   We absolutely are information cattle. As individuals, we like generate information   and once   systems and technology   allow it, you can now start harvesting   information from individuals and then get into advanced scenarios of   predicting what will happen,   controlling individuals.  

As as the latest meme says, yeah, MPCs.   It is literally   functioning   now to the point where you don't even need to do too much preparation.   You just start new wave   of media and news articles,   and   it's like you   download like, upload firmware into millions of people   and get them to react in a certain way.   I, one of your favorite tweets,   that you tweeted out, like, I loved it. It was like, some of you will trust the government until your pronouns are was were.   So   so   it it is absolutely like that. And it's it's not only government because at least with government, you can organize some kind of movement, like get them out of the office or   get media on your end. It's about   corporation.  

It's about   that cyberpunk   future, which is, you know,   high technology, low standard of living, which is we're what we are seeing more and more. And  

[00:47:48] Unknown:

the Yeah. The the best part about that tweet is one of the best parts about Twitter is that there was a shit ton of people   in the comments below letting me know that was, were, is, aren't pronouns.   Oh,  

[00:48:00] Unknown:

well, what do you you didn't use the opportunity to to say, like, they're mispronoun?  

[00:48:06] Unknown:

Yep. I mean, no. It I mean, they were grammatically correct. They're they are not pronouns. It was just, No. Yes. They they are. They are my pronouns.  

[00:48:15] Unknown:

The  

[00:48:16] Unknown:

so we have someone in the comments mentioning then don't use Twitter, and I do agree that Twitter is a surveillance   platform. I agree that it's a   a tool used to monetize people,   and to a degree control people. And I I would say that maybe in the beginning, it wasn't as much used for control.   You know, I like to believe that the original ideas were was to, you know,   make information more open and communication more open.   It is to me, it's a balancing act.   I use Twitter pretty much only professionally. I only use it for Bitcoin things,   and I try and limit my usage as much as possible. Me, personally,   a   Twitter is the last man standing.  

I could give 2 shits about all the Twitter clones that are replacing it. I won't even sign up for Mastodon.   I'm at the point where and I'm completely shadowbanned on Twitter now.  

[00:49:17] Unknown:

So   Not completely.  

[00:49:20] Unknown:

I mean,   they had me down pretty brutally.   I had to like, other people complain about being shadowbanned, but,   you know No. You're in the bubble now. Break my they break my tweet threads and shit.   So, like, I'm I'm I'm   pretty close to being done with it.   It's just a question of   of   of of basically, you know, bootstrapping   dispatch, dispatch, bootstrapping   the Citadel chat,   having a tribe that you can communicate with and discuss things with and build things with,   so that you can be relatively immune and you can actually opt out. Like, I will say,   I don't even remember how many years ago I deleted my   Instagram. It was a long fucking time ago.  

But, I mean, there was a whole set of friends   and family   that just   disappeared.   They were just they are not in my life anymore when I left that platform,   and that was   a pretty rash decision.   Like, that was just a woke up one morning. I was like, this is all getting deleted. I was like, who the what the fuck am I doing?   So with Twitter, I'm just being a little bit more calculated about it,   but, fortunately, I feel very grateful that I do feel like I found my tribe. I do feel like,   I could get banned from Twitter tomorrow,   and I could still have the discussions I wanna have. I could still support the projects I wanna support. I could still   build things, and   I I think that's a very rewarding thing when when you realize that that decentralized platforms can't necessarily cut you off and cancel you. They can cut you off from themselves,   from their platform, but they can't,   they can't   significantly disrupt your life.  



[00:51:08] Unknown:

Yeah. Because   this world would have been   much less rich   if you follow through with your cutting off social media. Like you and me will never met probably.   I,   one of my hobbies is going back to Matt Adele tweets from like 2016,   20 7. Like, I don't know how far back you go, but I love reading your tweets when it's like 0 likes.   And you're advocating for something,   which   in retrospect   makes so much sense, but   it is like, that's the balancing act you you're talking about.   I,   last few years,   unfolded for me the way they did, because I created a Twitter account to   mostly to retweet,   Nicholas's tweets when when I joined BTC based server team.  

But from there, as my   persona,   current persona grew, like, it it opened so many doors. I mean, I wouldn't be in strike today if   I wasn't   rockstar developer,   you know,   on, on Twitter.   So   I would advise everyone to,   to,   absolutely be conscious on, on, you know, privacy   and   like not being the information cattle. If you can turn the situation around and make that platform be be a cattle of yours, absolutely do it. And if you see you are losing the battle and, and you're,   you, you're   giving more than you're getting,   then, yeah, like, get get out.  



[00:52:52] Unknown:

I mean, I you you mentioned cyberpunks. Right? And and   and Eric Hughes in the cyberpunk manifesto, like, he specifically says, like, privacy is not secrecy.   Privacy is the ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world and choose what you reveal. Right?   And   when you start to talk about sovereignty, when you start to talk about privacy, it is this balancing act. It's a balancing act of trade offs. It's a balancing act of constantly   being aware of your surroundings and your adversaries   and and what information is being collected about you and used against you.   And it's important   for people to realize this because   ultimately,   especially in the privacy community,   and I would say even in the sovereignty community,   there's a   there's a lack of of open public discussion about it. And why is that? That's because if someone really truly values their privacy, this is the dichotomy,   they're not gonna participate in those platforms. They're not gonna talk about it. You don't see influencers talking about privacy.  

People that care about privacy   and sovereignty are living on their own land, not, you know, with their tribe, not talking to anybody publicly about it.   You talked about, you know, there is an inherent issue with NIMS. This is human psychology. This fact the fact of the matter is that people wanna see faces. They wanna see names. They wanna feel like they can relate to someone.   So in in a lot of ways, it is very much an uphill battle, and I I I always knew this was the case. I've lived it as the case,   and I kind of stumbled into doxing my face and something that I always regretted doing. I go back and forth because I   I feel like it has made a difference,   but   I also, you know, regret doxing my face because my face is forever.  

Names can be changed. Faces can't,   or maybe they can in the future, but it sounds expensive, and I like my face.   But I once I did stumble into that,   I made it a mission to try and elevate NIMS because I think that people that are in public positions   have a unique   unique   potential, unique ability to elevate NIMs that they that they notice have a good reputation, that they notice are building good things. People like 6102,   people like Diverter. We have Diverter in the comments.   Econo Alchemist,   you know, all of these guys, like, they're they're doing good work, open arms, you know,   Chris Belcher. Like, they're they're they're doing good work, and they need to be amplified, and other people aren't amplifying it. So if you're already in that position, if you already have a public platform, if you already have a semi public platform,   like, helping and supporting these people that are working really hard behind the scenes   is extremely actionable, and I I would I I like to think extremely effective. And and one of the things I've been noticing, just to bring it back fully around,   is this is something, like I said, that I've lived through, that I've seen it happening, that I expected it to unfold,   but it really does feel like as   Bitcoin is becoming more mainstream,   the voices of privacy and sovereignty   are going to continuously get drowned out.  

And we're basically in a situation where   the fundamentals of Bitcoin are under attack.   And   if you just do a cursory glance at Bitcoin Twitter or something, it looks like everything is rosy and great   because the influencers just like number go up and everything's gonna be fine,   because that's what gets you engagement. What gets you engagement is not telling people that they should practice personal responsibility or they shouldn't trust you or they should do their own research or they should use their own shit. What gets you engagement is is getting cattle to   to pretty   much trust you completely and do everything you say and rely on you and tell them that they're completely absolved to personal responsibility and everything will be okay.  



[00:57:00] Unknown:

Absolutely, man. It's that paradox of needing to be a public   persona to broadcast information privacy.   And then   starting to understand that, especially with mainstream conditioning of people   not to, okay. You know, I already   scanned my idea, uploaded it to open a Facebook account. Like, why does it matter? Say   some   call. So   but I don't know. I   especially when talking with you and and then talking with people who heard me talking with you,   we are we are inspiring   others. And,   maybe it's it's me being in strike as VP of engineering and and talking with so many engineers   that want to switch from   soul crushing jobs without any meaning at, you know, big tech companies to something that has meaning. Like,   I am optimistic for the future and,   you know,   we, you just accept, you will never be   the most popular,   the most entertaining,   but, you know, that's that's not the point. The point is   you pick this cross of   actually making a difference and, you know, being actionable Bitcoin discussion. So,   you know,   we will not talk about number go up. We'll talk that everyone should read Katan's   article on creating digital identity and   do it after this call. And  

[00:58:36] Unknown:

Yeah. Catan's blog is great. What is that? K3ton.com?  

[00:58:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And   this is   the article I'm talking about, like, starting a new digital identity.  

[00:58:49] Unknown:

I mean, it's funny you keep bringing up actionable Bitcoin discussion, because I feel like this is gonna be one of the least actionable episodes. I'm just shooting the shit with my boy. No. I don't know. This will be the most actionable  

[00:59:00] Unknown:

episode. Believe me, like, I'm sending you   those,   messages. It's like people telling me, hey. Tell Matt, I've listened to you 2 talk   because,   people can feel the energy between us, Matt, and especially between   you and other people, because in Bitcoin, you you're one of the most loved people. And it's just, I'm telling you, you're too too much of a critical thinker, and then you point that criticism toward yourself.   Get out, man. You're you're you're doing a good job. You just maybe need yeah. You maybe need a funeral as well and new NIM  

[00:59:37] Unknown:

and start over. Yeah. I mean, I have concurrent NIMs.   There's the question is if if this gets   if if the I like dispatch. I like rapid recap,   but it's it's not an easy one to throw away.   But, yeah, that's another I mean, that's an important point though.   I have many identities.   That's a very easy step. That's a lot easier than   getting rid of 1 and starting a new one.   It's a very good first step is to have multiple.   So, I mean, if we're if we if we wanna talk about  

[01:00:23] Unknown:

No. Let's let's talk about dying because when you were mentioning in previous segment about,   difference between secrecy and privacy and,   those people that   are individuals that are really hardcore about privacy.   It's always a good question. If you are hardcore about privacy or secrecy, like you can never   test your privacy and your setup too much.   You know, like, oh, you know, me, your private will, will, how, how private are you? How fast can your name and identity be doxed?   Like, you should always test that every few months   and   then start that process of in iteration,   to, you know,   kill the old name,   get a new one, and, and see what sticks.  

What is really you   versus   what is   that current identity that's popular or part of yourself?   Because   that that's also another thing that, that I dislike   about the fact that only those that are most public, most vocal,   most entertaining, like they get all the stage,   identities   like digital or otherwise are such a big topic.   But the   last decades at this point are dominated by   shallow identity talk that doesn't go into specifics of,   you know,   all of us, we're not the same person, a 100% of the time. We're different people   and we need to formalize those identities because,   Matt at work is different than Matt at home,   Matt,   at the bar,   met in this setting, like, is it more personal and Right. There's no reason to tie it all together.  

Exactly. And in in the this environment, in this   world where information is ever faster,   it's also like placing that burden onto you   to be all those people.   Like, oh, you go to work now. It's, like,   not working 8, you know, 8 hours, but, like, 12 hours. And that's   so many people are, like, so disconnected   from all the different identities they're forced to be, to wear a suit, to wear a tie.   But it's really important to to have that discussion   in deep and meaningful way   and then recognize how, like,   how to build that structure   and connections between identities   and have it in sustainable way so that you do not go insane,   essentially.  



[01:03:12] Unknown:

100%.   I mean and that's like a you made an also really interesting point there that in terms of privacy,   it is it is one of those   especially in every digital world where, you know, Barbara Streisand, the Streisand effect   about the   the Internet   is forever,   and it's hard to delete things from the Internet. It's impossible to delete things from the Bitcoin ledger, the Bitcoin blockchain,   and you usually don't notice the privacy break until it's too late. So it is something that you kinda   have to, like, actively be watching all the time and actively be thinking about,   which does give, you know, additional mental cost there.  

I mean, that's just a trade off. I don't know if that's unavoidable.   We have our we have our boy,   Silent Link,   in the Twitch comments. First of all, Silent Link. You know, I love your service. I don't know why you're not in the matrix chat, but I'm gonna it's a very good comment, so I'm gonna highlight it   on on the show.   He's saying stop saying our data is monetized. It's our behavior that is monetized, and our data is the means to manipulate it. I think that's a very good point.   Words do matter,   and I like your framing better than mine. So I will be using that going forward. I do appreciate it.   It is our behavior that is being monetized,   and our behavior is being harvested.  

So I I do appreciate that framing. I and I think,   you know, if you wanna talk about   why words matter,   a perfect example is   what we're seeing right now, which is this this attack on   this attack on Bitcoin privacy tools, specifically collaborative Bitcoin transactions,   the most popular being CoinJoin.   And   there's a separate thing that is   mixing Bitcoin. And when you mix Bitcoin,   you use a custodial service.   That service takes custody of your coins   and gives you someone else's coins.   When you do a coin join, it's a collaborative Bitcoin send, it's a native Bitcoin transaction that has privacy best practices   taken into account,   that you're doing with other people,   that no one is taking custody of your coin, you get brand new coin out the other side,   and it breaks the probability   analysis that is used by chain surveillance companies. And this is a distinction that I've been trying to make very clear whenever I talk about CoinJoin, whenever I talk about collaborative transactions.  

A lot of people have not been doing that,   and the enemies of privacy   continuously   try to conflate the 2, and we're seeing that right now.   There's been a bunch of articles lately.   I did   I did an interview with CoinDesk where there was, like, a little bit of an editorial ahead of it, and they conflated it.   The block   had, like, a horrible article about   CoinJoin that they're like, I I don't even know if they did any kind of fucking research whatsoever.   Things were conflated in it. Feet conflated it.   And now we don't really know   if there was any kind of real regulatory   pressure   on   Wasabi   or what the deal is. Feet released an article   about the   the British regulator,   I think it's the FCA, maybe it's a different British regulator that's trying to go after CoinJoin   services, the services that actually offer the coordination. So with CoinJoin, you can have   collaborative transactions that are not run by a centralized coordinator.  

Join Market does this.   Samurais has two features that do it, stonewall and stowaway. And, basically, it's just like you and one other person, you're doing the coin join. You don't have this this centralized coordinator that is coordinating   the transaction happening.   Now on Wasabi,   you have a centralized coordinator. In Samurai, you have a centralized coordinator.   And previously,   in terms of legal precedent,   running a mixing service, one of these centralized custodial mixing services,   has been considered a criminal act. The users I'm pretty sure there's never been a case where users have been hit,   with anything, but the actual operators have been hit.  

And now there's a conflation   that the operators of a coordinator service would be hit the same way even though I don't think I'm not once I'm not a fucking lawyer, but I don't think there's any legal precedent for it. I don't think there's any laws against it. It's a message transfer service.   But, anyway, all that said, at the end of the day, words do matter. When we're talking about these things,   they   you know, especially if you have a platform, they matter significantly.   But I have to say, this whole wasabi thing, like,   I've been critical   of of them for a while now.  

Previously, I was probably one of their largest shills.   I will own that, you know, years ago.   But I did turn. We had we had,   I had no power on the show   where we had an open discussion about a lot of my complaints.   I'm not Stefan, so I don't know which episode that was.   But   right now, like, do you see that they're gonna they're,   like, first of all, they're, like, a bunch of vague tweets about it. There's no, like, proper statement. Yeah. And then in Telegram, in the group chat in Telegram, Nopara, the founder of Wasabi, said they're gonna   pay a chain surveillance firm   or multiple,   I don't know, I think he said 1,   to screen transactions before they go into coin join rounds   and block transactions,   if they get flagged by the chain surveillance company. And, presumably   I mean, these chain surveillance companies, they gotta share they're sharing all this information around. They're combining with other data they have, other external data they have from KYC companies and stuff.  

So, like, CoinJoin fees paid to will literally be paying,   you know, these   anti privacy mercenaries.   And I just I just don't understand. Like,   maybe they disagree with my technical issues with   with with Wasabi and   and some of the choices. No. You know, the faults. But, like, why why not just shut down the company at point instead of doing that? Like, that's just disheartening. Right? That's just   like, where are the priorities there?  

[01:10:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I've always tried to be, like,   be hard on the issue,   not hard on the people, and they say you were one of their biggest shi shills. You still are, man. See, we're we're giving the advertising.   We're wasabi right now.   Don't use it. Well, yeah, you don't use it anymore, but we are shilling it on them. I'm saying don't the freak shouldn't use it.   Now everyone will use it because you said they they shouldn't. But,   I think,   from my experience of being in startups and being a   developer,   CTO, founder, this and that is just,   there are competing priorities. And that's where I think,   no part of it just didn't have the bandwidth to process your complaints   and is now in position,   where taking everything, like all the information that he has, that we don't have,   he is making judgment call. And,  

[01:11:06] Unknown:

I don't know. Maybe I am too skeptical. I re you know, I respectively think that's bullshit.   Yeah.   I Sure. I I made my complaints very clear.   I was gaslit. I said they weren't they weren't valid complaints.   Wasabi 2 point o, which Wasabi 2 point o, which they're rolling out right now,   attempted to fix a bunch of the complaints,   without ever saying that they were valid complaints.   I was personally attacked about it instead of actually changing anything,   But I'm willing to put all that behind me in terms of this present discussion   and everything else in a vacuum.  

Right? Everything else in a vacuum. Wasabi we're talking today, this conversation is about   the title of this conversation   is the viral nature of information and the power of open source software. And the power of open source software is is it's greater than any individual or group or company. It's not controlled.   Right? It can live on past people. And with with Wasabi Wasabi itself is free open source makes   the   coin   joint fees, and that's cksnacks. Right? So that makes the coin joint fees, and that's zk Snacks.   Right? So that company, if they don't if if they don't have the capability of running a coordinator without paying a chain surveillance firm to spy on their users and block people from accessing   their service,   then they should shut down that company. And if if someone else or some other group you know, there's contributors outside of the company that are already contributing to Wasabi wants to continue on the project, the project will survive. Someone else will run a coordinator that won't be completely   cut. But I just don't understand,   like and then they're doing this double talk where they're   like, anyone can run a coordinator.  

Like, they don't have to use our coordinator. Okay. So then shut down your fucking coordinator. Like, at the end of the day, it's it's   it's I mean, it's a it's a greedy choice. Right? The choice is   they're they're making a shit ton of money off of CoinJoin fees, and this was one of my original complaints to no powers that I was getting personally attacked. But meanwhile, I paid them a shit ton of Bitcoin   in terms of CoinJoin fees   for for a poor product,   and I recommended it to people who paid a shit ton of CoinJoin fees to them for a poor product.   And then meanwhile, I was getting accused of getting paid by the opposition. Like, I literally paid them.  



[01:13:41] Unknown:

Yeah.   I agree. But my whole point is don't shut down the company. Use the fees from normies and everything else, and you fund   development  

[01:13:51] Unknown:

of open source software, and then someone can run a coordinator. As it stands right now, the company is funding change surveillance companies is what the coinsurance fees are doing. Well,  

[01:14:01] Unknown:

news flash is that,   chain surveillance companies are getting funded   by, we have way bigger fish.   So the chain surveillance companies are going to survive   regardless of   whether Nopara and Wasabi, like, give money to them.   So,   I'm telling you, it's never binary choice. It's you need to take   good with the bad. And,   I do understand that position, but I'm telling you, I disagree. I I do like it as long as Wasabi   and Nopar are keeping the software fully open source.   You know? I I'm like, let the market,   figure it out.   And,   if someone is running coordinators   without   surveillance,   ZK Snacks is running it with surveillance.  

Okay, people. Let's let's put money where our mouth you know?   What was the saying?   Put  

[01:15:04] Unknown:

the money where your mouth is. There's already one there's already one Wasabi coordinator that is not doing it, a popular one, which is being run by Chain Case, which is the iPhone version.   There is a coordinator,   the samurai coordinator for Whirlpool is not a is not you can't use it with Wasabi.   They're not running surveillance.   Okay. It's just Use samurai. But then you also have to remember, of course, with these centralized   coordinators regardless,   and this is something that I made very   clear. I have a whole thread about it that is probably shadow banned from years ago,   is is the major trade up you get from a centralized coordinator, which, by the way, no power disagrees with this as a concept,   if you listen to the episode. But but the main trade off with the centralized coordinator is the benefit you get is it's more efficient. It they're able to coordinate larger coin join rounds.  

You you're able to get a a better anonymity set quicker and   faster   because you're coordinating it with all these people.   And as a result, you're also getting all these fees, so you're able to make the UX of the software better and everything easier. But the main negative is is   is you don't get civil resistance from the coordinator itself,   and it's impossible to ever prove. You see all these services. You see this in VPN land a lot. All these services say there are no logs.   It's impossible to prove.   It's it's impossible   to   to prove in a in a verifiable way that someone, the absence of logs or the absence of surveillance.  

So you you're not getting you're not getting protection from from who's ever running the coordinator themselves.   That's the trade off that is being made.   Tools like join market   or Samurais,   Stonewall, these p to p coin joins   mitigate that trade off,   but,   like, they don't have that trade off, but that is that is an inherent trade off with with centralized coordinators.   I don't know. It just all seems so   and then, like, No Power also like, I feel like I'm just venting now, but, like, No Power tweeted out, like,   the attack on CoinJoin has begun,   you know.  

It in my opinion, it really hurts. It's really bad news for Bitcoin fungibility.   Like, this is right now, this is a wasabi thing.   There could be an argument that samurai is next maybe, But, like, it's clearly not an attack on join market. Like, join market was set up in a way that it doesn't have great UX. Hopefully, the UX gets better. I'm part of a bounty to make UX better. There's a great group of guys doing,   the jam project where this idea that you can run   join market easily on on, like, a Raspi blitz or an Umbrel node or any of these   nodes at home, and you get a nice web UI interface. Like, it's not there yet. It's an alpha.  

But, like, join market was built to be resistant to this type of thing. Right?   So   and and this is something that I always thought was,   there there were a lot of there were a lot of people in the samurai camp that that that called this, and I always said that they were being hyperbolic. This idea that   wasabi was gonna make a bunch of mistakes.   They were going to get themselves into a hole,   and then they were gonna say, like,   this is an attack on Bitcoin privacy. Like, privacy is dead even though   it it it was really how they designed their system and how they handled their regulatory issues and how they   expose themselves.  

I don't know. It's just frustrating. We there's just so few allies in the Bitcoin privacy world, and I just Yeah. When I see shit like that, it just makes me   feel even more disillusioned.  

[01:19:09] Unknown:

Get it all out, man.   Don't let information. Yeah. Stick with you because Thanks for the vent.   No. I I now will switch my screen to to   no tweet   when he's, like, glorious days in 2013.   Bitcoin community successfully pushed back against blacklisting. I'm gonna retweet it to troll   you.  

[01:19:33] Unknown:

But no, man. It's it's What is he even talking about in that tweet? Like, okay. So why isn't he pushing back against blacklisting? Like, why is he running a coordinator that's gonna have changed surveillance ahead of it?   Like, what the fuck is he even talking about in that tweet? Like, is it it's just a cell phone is what that tweet is.  

[01:19:51] Unknown:

I am thinking about what is the next stage of Matt. Maybe it's, like, coach Matt, do better, be better because you're so frustrated that they're not being better and that   what happened was called out and it was converted. The ultimate the ultimate LARP  

[01:20:07] Unknown:

by me is that I'm not a programmer.   So, really, what I need to do is just kill this identity,   kill dispatch and rabbit hole recap, and, like Oh my gosh. Spend a year learning how to program   and then come back as a nim and just start building shit.   That that is the ultimate LARP.   And I own that. I own that every fucking day. Don't worry, freaks.  

[01:20:31] Unknown:

No freaks. You heard it.   Actionable Bitcoin discussion   breaking. Matt is becoming a programmer or rock star developer.   Hey, I'm ready, man. Whenever you are.  

[01:20:42] Unknown:

Because won't have rock Rockstar won't teach me, but his next identity will teach me.  

[01:20:47] Unknown:

So, yeah, you you will get into the casket on August 13th with me, and we'll unite together.   I'm telling you, man, like, we were going to inspire and encourage so many people after this podcast because,   yeah. It's about not letting that viral   no. No. It is. Like, that not letting that viral nature of information take over and realize   how to fight back   because there is so much happening   and, you just can't   let it get to you. And, and like big losses like this, that, you know, this was called with Wasabi and it's actually happened. Like, okay, man. It's it's one thing,   but let's keep going.  

It's it's I look at it also as a recognition of how far we have come   to the point where,   Bitcoin and crypto   is so much in crosshairs of regulators. Like it is,   considering my position. I mean, I obviously can't talk much about my professional engagements,   but it is the talk of the town, man. Like,   more and more people are waking up to this realization that, money and the state   will be separated.   And,   it's   a scary thought for for many. It's like, no, woah, how how will we execute or all our plans, all the like great   reset and,   central plan the world, like the best possible world into existence if we don't have control over money. Like, we we see that time is running out.  

And, It does feel like it's heating up, right? Yeah, it is. It is man. Like they, they are becoming more aggressive   and,   I'm telling you, like I did, there's   when you're participating in it as a developer,   that's, that's   what has been like a lot of complaints lately.   Developers, even open source developers being,   chased down personally sued. I mean, we had a whole fake.   Yes,   We we do because I can tell in in my own   experience when you see,   Cody   from   the 3 d printed guns, like shilling BTC pay server on Alex Jones,   you will be glad that you're a NIM and, you know, government can't find all of you that's like building BTC pay server. Right.  

That's a that was a that was a hilarious moment. You know, when he was like Cody on on When did that happen?   That was, like, 2018,  

[01:23:36] Unknown:

even, like, 20. Early.  

[01:23:39] Unknown:

Yeah. It was early. And then,   Al Docs who did it. It's it's like,   Goldstein   Goldie. He also died. But when we were at Bitblock, boom, he was like, right. Did did you like it? Did you like it? I'm like, goddamn it, man. You should've give me a transforming.   So I'm like, coding a software that's   shield on Alex Jones.  

[01:24:00] Unknown:

It does feel like it's heating up with, like, the whole sanctions talk and  

[01:24:04] Unknown:

Yep.   I can tell you well, the the part that I can tell you that   it's public. I mean, it's,   but it's maybe not so obvious with, with people. It's,   it's that OFAC,   sanction list.   Now that you have conflict in,   Ukraine,   there is, like, a real time updating or, like, where what area is under sanctions.   Right. It's ridiculous.   It is that information velocity because 20 years ago, you will be happy if you can like,   put a country under sanctions. Now I don't know what's next. We'll need, like, GPS trackers   and   real time resolving of location addresses. They're like, oh, you know, if you go   20 feet in this direction, you're no longer under sanctions.  

So  

[01:24:57] Unknown:

Well, I mean, with this Russia thing, it's even worse than sanctions. I mean, first of all,   it's it's it's the most intense sanctions I've ever seen,   but there's also, like, this element of cancel culture that is mixed in there, right, where, like, companies are pulling out   and canceling just anyone who's Russian that's not even on the sanction list.   And then also, like, just this idea of   just we live in such a litigious world, a world, like, filled with liabilities, so you just have people   you just have   you just have people that just don't want don't want the liability on their hands. Right? And I feel like that is kind of what we're seeing with Wasabi, where I don't we don't even know if they've got a necessarily illegal order or not. They might have.  

But it could just be a   Yep.   It could just be a, we don't want the liability, so we're just gonna we're just gonna go ahead and over comply.  

[01:25:55] Unknown:

Yep. We we will not hold that banner, that standard.  

[01:26:00] Unknown:

What is this video you're showing that you linked?  

[01:26:04] Unknown:

Well, you said, Russia's getting banned. This is, Russian influencer chick crying about her Instagram account being banned. You wanna hear it? Yes. It's beautiful.   She's crying saying that, like, her Instagram account is, like, her life, her soul. What is she posting this on them?   Well, I think she posted on Instagram before they cut off her access.   But,   you know, you and I are laughing.   Yeah. But you and I are laughing, but it is   very interesting   as a, you know, concept. And I mean, she she is right.   Once   she's demonetized,   her life changes rapidly.  

And that's the environment in which we are going in.   It's not the influencers.  

[01:27:12] Unknown:

They they, you know, they.   It's their main source of income   and they just get cut off.   They build this platform on a centralized platform   on quicksand.   You know, this is why distributed networks and open source software is so important because if you build your life on quicksand   I mean, if we just   throw out whatever, you know,   put to the side any kind of ethics or moral   questions about influencers as a,   you know, as a business,   the or, like, their tactics or their,   in general,   you have all these people. You have all these young people that are just basically building their livelihoods on quicksand,   and they can just get pulled right out from underneath them.  

And you have people whose   life's wealth has just evaporated   in a devaluing   ruble. They can't get money out of the country. They can't get information from out of the country.   They're stuck in their little propaganda silos.   It's it's terrible. No. It's terrible. Now more than ever, we need these tools. You know? We need we need people to support them. We need people to build them. We need people to run them.   We need people to educate people on them. And I I I do My cautious my optimistic take is, like, the most pessimistic optimistic take,   which is, like, I I just think people mostly learn from getting burned.  

So I just what I see happening is just more and more people get burned, and it just being extremely painful. But then when we get out the other side, it's people will realize the need for this shit.   That's my optimistic take. It's just in the short to medium term, it's just super not optimistic,   but ultimately, it becomes optimistic. Right?  

[01:29:04] Unknown:

Hey, man. You you have the best guest on the show to talk about this because I grew up under sanctions.   And,  

[01:29:12] Unknown:

talk about it?  

[01:29:13] Unknown:

Oh,   just,   just briefly to say that   a lot of the people already realize it.   It's just that you need 10 years to, to like, get out of that situation.   It's like at minimum.   And,   that's, I guess, where your long term optimism   comes into play. It's it's just that.  

[01:29:39] Unknown:

Yeah.   What do you mean by that 10 years?  

[01:29:44] Unknown:

Well,   when you are in the country under   sanctions   and,   you also realize that that you're being lied to,   by mainstream media.   There is not much you can do in that immediate moment. I mean, you also have engineers from   Russia now or Belarus who are complaining about they're   being cut off from all the services, all the platforms.   So what is it that they can do in in this immediate moment? Like, they can't do anything.   What they can do is,   they can finish their education,   can find a way to immigrate, but and,   in 5 to 10 years, okay, they will no longer be in that position.   But   I also worry that that approach is, is not sustainable. Like you can only move so many times. Like I've moved here to US and all of you, like rug pulled me with this   broke nonsense and bullshit. I mean,   now I now I need to move to Texas or something or Florida.  

But,   yeah, you  

[01:31:00] Unknown:

that's the advantage we have in the United States is we have the competition of states.   Yes. And It's easy to cross those borders at least for now.  

[01:31:10] Unknown:

We need, yeah, to to preserve it.   But I'm telling you, there is definitely that power in numbers, that collectivism,   that fact that if you're public, if you're in the group, if you're like group think   you're much easier to to navigate in advance, like, navigate challenges ahead.  

[01:31:33] Unknown:

You have to you have to you have to navigate them ahead. Because if you don't navigate them ahead I mean, I think between what happened in Canada and then what happened,   in Ukraine and Russia, like, is a perfect example   that, like, when the crisis hit,   like, when shit properly hits the fan So it's too late.   It's it's way too late. It's, like, it becomes impossible to   whether you're talking about on on a on a larger scale, things like,   like, we have Lola, we have 1 we have a Big Corner that's trying to roll out mesh nets in Ukraine,   you know, with with,   one of the Bitcoin associations   that's based over there. She's accepting donations. Like, you you it's really difficult to roll it out in a war zone. If if you're trying to if you're trying to, like, figure out your privacy   or or access Bitcoin and you don't have it when the when the currency starts failing, when the bank starts failing,   you know, when they start trying to seize your money, when they start trying to seize your rights, seize your speech, put you in jail, at that point, it's already fucking too late.  

So it's important to compare,   but  

[01:32:48] Unknown:

Say no more, man. Let's go then. Let's you see   6102   just merge PR to remove a savvy from bitcoinonly.com.   We have conference in Miami. I'm fully dead. He's still out there. Yeah. He is still out there, but, August 13th, you are also dying. You're getting into casket with me.   Whoever is jealous, they can get over it that you're you'll be dying together with me will hug in the casket.   But let's let's put more stuff on on agenda and let's execute because   with Bitcoin conference coming up,   we need to announce that that you're doing amazing job with open source  

[01:33:27] Unknown:

area within the about that. That's a positive note.  

[01:33:31] Unknown:

Because I want to I wanna pitch because I know there are some,   work,   workspace   workshop tables.   One of the workshops that we're going to do, and here's my pitch, is like,   bring your fiat to turn it into Bitcoin flyer. That will be the workshop.   So Ben Ark,   shout out to him. He supplied me with those buy Bitcoin stamps.   What I propose that we do is everyone brings their, like, dollar bills.   We stamped them with buy Bitcoin and for like a dollar, whoever donates their stamp dollar,   gets that stamp to, like, keep stamping more so that we can propagate the message of buying Bitcoin.   Once we collect all those dollars,   we will start,   distributing. Like, it will be air dropped   across Miami.  

What do you say? Like, are we doing that workshop?  

[01:34:26] Unknown:

I mean, yeah, you're hap I I think that'd be a great workshop.   I'm not I'm not sure if I really,  

[01:34:36] Unknown:

I want you as a note. It's like you, you will be one of the people air dropping. I'll I'll get you, like, $200  

[01:34:42] Unknown:

in the $1 bills. I'm not I'm not sure if we really need to tell people to buy Bitcoin. I think they'll figure it out when they need it, and we just have to be ready for them with education.   I've said in the past that water doesn't need marketing, but neither does and neither does Bitcoin. You figure it out when you need it.   But, yeah, it's a cool idea. So so just to unpack that a little bit, so the   the open source stage, which I've been   spending a shit ton of fucking time on the last few weeks, but we've been planning stages for it for, like, 6 months or 7 months at at Bitcoin 2022   is is 3 full days of   of programming dedicated to open source,   contributors and projects.  

The agenda is fucking packed out with just like, it's it feels like agenda like, space time on that stage is more scarce than Bitcoin at this point.   Full 3 days of content. The room is,   fire rated for 2,000 people.   We're gonna have a 1,000 chairs in it,   massive room, and 12 workshop tables.   The workshop tables will be unstructured. Anyone can use them for whatever they want to do there   all 3   days,   yeah, including this buy Bitcoin thing. I I'm I'm   I'm pretty fucking excited   about it.   I think   on its own, it'll probably,   like, it's for, obviously, it's in the largest it's in the same venue as the largest Bitcoin event in history, which is Bitcoin 2022, which is on track to be 35,000 to 45,000 people.  

But that 1, 2,000 person conference hall is larger than most Bitcoin conferences that have ever happened,   and it's gonna be extremely high signal.   It's gonna be really fucking good.   So I'm pretty excited about that. I think   it should open up the eyes of a lot of people and the importance of of the greater open source movement, not just Bitcoin, and why Bitcoin is   is it's it's essential that Bitcoin is open source and not controlled by anybody,   and that our projects   that are tangential to Bitcoin are as well.   So, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. We're gonna be trying to raise a bunch of money for developers at the same time.  

So, yeah, that that should be great, and I look I just look forward to kicking it with you. It's always fun kicking it with you.  

[01:37:06] Unknown:

I'm just looking forward to sticking, like, $300 in one dollar bills that are stamped with your   hand, and then Matt Todell airdrop. Like The thing is, I'm Like, I'm going to make so much fun out of that on Twitter. Like, Matt,   Dell is participating in airdrop. I just need to find from, like, which building you're gonna throw those dollars. Have you noticed that most people just don't even use cash anymore?  

[01:37:31] Unknown:

Like, most of my peers just don't even use cash for it. They use credit cards. They use Venmo. They use Cash App.  

[01:37:39] Unknown:

Okay.   Let let's make a bet because you lost the bet last year on 100 k by conference day. Let's not make it about price this year. 200 k by conference day last year. Oh, 200 k. Let's get it correct.   Too bullish. Yeah. Let's get  

[01:37:55] Unknown:

People love to remind me of it, so I'll remind them as well.  

[01:37:59] Unknown:

I will I'm going to get $300   and $1 bills. They will be, like, stamped with buy Bitcoin all over them, like, easy.   And I'm going to   to do that for, like, I see who 2 more people will be. So at least, like, a $1,000 we'll have in in, like, buy Bitcoin flyers   in in form of dirty fiat.   You wanna bet?  

[01:38:22] Unknown:

But that's a bet. I I have no doubt that that'll happen.   I'm not gonna bet on that.   Okay. I support I support the cause. I'll help I'll help out with that. I just I I don't know. Maybe I'm just disenfranchised Matt right now. I'm just a bit disillusioned.   That's for you. Yeah. I see. That's your smile. We were getting somewhere. So let's see how much you will raise. If you do wanna kick it with us in Miami if you don't wanna come to the conference, like, you should still come to Miami. The side events are always great.   But if you do wanna come to the conference,   they have not shut down by   the code I the code they gave me, which is open code open source gets you 21% off. And you get I think you get, like, 30% off if you pay with Bitcoin, and then you get an additional 21% off   if you use code open source. But do not share that on Twitter because it's   it's larger than all the other codes. So if it gets shared on Twitter anymore, I'm gonna get the they're gonna cancel on me.  



[01:39:18] Unknown:

Stay private.   Don't don't don't become canceled. And then for open source contributors, thank you, Matt, for Yeah. They get free tickets.   On for free tickets.  

[01:39:28] Unknown:

Yeah. So if they're an open source contributor to the 32 projects listed on the website,   if you just   yeah. If there's 32 projects listed on the website   that I tried my best to pick well,   that was very stressful. Of course, you know, you announced 32 projects are getting free tickets, and   there's, like, always there's always there's always another 30 projects that are, like, why not me?   But it took a lot of advocating to get that going, and I'm   very grateful to the to the Bitcoin Magazine team for backing me on that initiative because I think it's a very important initiative. But we're gonna have right now, we've given out,   probably close to 300 free tickets to open source developers,   which I'm very proud of,   and and that that should be great. And they they will all be joining us on the open source stage even if they're not speaking. So speakers obviously already get free tickets. So it was it was,   it was   303100   tickets in addition to the free tickets of the speakers. So these people aren't being, like, compelled to speak or anything.  

They can just chill in the   they can chill in the audience,   and still get the free tickets, so that's fucking awesome.  

[01:40:48] Unknown:

Appreciate it, Matt. Know that we appreciate it. And Zach's who always tags along with me and will be master of ceremonies at my funeral, you see what he says. He's like, don't share on Twitter while I'm Twitter.  

[01:41:00] Unknown:

Don't tweet it, Zacks. That's all I'm saying. Don't tweet it out in text.   Yeah. He said don't share on Twitter while I'm I'm literally streaming it to Twitter.  

[01:41:10] Unknown:

Too much of a conversation to Twitter,  

[01:41:14] Unknown:

which I think is gonna get like I said, just if if if you want if you want updates to the show,   you do twitch.tv/dispatch,   because I don't know how long my Twitter is gonna go for it. Dispatch.com.   If you want archives,   favorite podcast apps, you'll get updates there. Join the Citadel chat,   and then all the archives go to bitcointv.com   as well. But bitcointvdot   com, like, we we're still working on the kinks there. It it won't, like, notify you if you subscribe when we go live.   But if you subscribe to the RSS feed on bitcoin tv.com when the archive gets posted afterwards, it will notify you then.   So just things to be aware of if you if you wanna keep listening to dispatch. If you don't, that's fine.  

But but, you know, we're at we're at the hour and 40 minute mark. I you know, before we,   like, wrap up, I wanna talk to you more about, like, what you think the future of Bitcoin privacy looks like. Because, like, right   now right now, the goal   you know, one of the key aspects of Bitcoin   is that it's extremely hard to change. It's a key aspect of the value prop. And and why is that important that Bitcoin's hard to change?   It's important because   if it's easy to change, then a malicious entity   will change it for the negative, and the stability is extremely important. This just robustness of Bitcoin.   So as a result, I mean,   unless we get, like, burned really, really fucking hard,   some kind of edge case, I just don't I don't think there'll ever be any kind of real significant privacy improvements on the base layer.  

So   that's fine,   but operating under that conclusion,   the best we have going for us is to try and improve it on the app layer,   and make it so that you can use Bitcoin privately in a relatively easy way that doesn't cost you much more than using it in a nonprivate way that is not much more difficult than using it in a nonprivate naive way,   based on how apps interact   with Bitcoin.   And what I really wanna see is I wanna see   this distinction between, you know, so called privacy wallets, things like Samura or Wasabi or JoinMarket,   kind of go away. Like, I think, like, all Bitcoin wallets should incorporate privacy best practices. They should be thinking about this when they're developing things. I think BTCPay has done a really good job about this. I mean, BTCPay, I had the whole conversation with Pavel   about receiving donations in a relatively easy privacy preserving way, and that was not positive. That was not possible really,   not at least not an easy way before BTCPay   existed. Right? And we saw the central point of failure in BitPay.  

They came in with KYC. They came in with horrible policies. They supported BCash.   The community got burned,   and BTCPay was born. Since then, we have things like Satsail. We have CypherpunkPay.   You know, we have BIP 47 now supported by 2 wallets. Hopefully, we see more.   And then also on top of that, you have, like, the layer 2 stuff,   things like lightning   and and and whatnot.   And this is why I said earlier that I always feel like a LARP kind of when I talk about these things   because I'm not a programmer, and I'm not, you know, necessarily building these things myself. I am not building these things myself. I provide feedback. I'm a user. I try and support monetarily. I try and   have open discussion about   feedback and improving these products and building support for these products.  

I, you know, I have open stats where, like, we're we're trying to fund devs. We have Bitcoin Dev list. We're trying to fund devs. I personally fund devs.   We have all the open source initiatives at the conference.   But, ultimately and I say all this because I always get accused of saying being a LARP when I say things like this,   and also because I feel like one.   It really does feel   like   privacy is, like, the last thing on most people's minds when it comes to Bitcoin.   It feels like   it feels like most Lightning developers could really   they don't even think about it. They don't even really consider the privacy implications. It feels like most wallet developers don't think about them. It feels like influencers   attack, you know,   one of the few like, I I'm not saying, like, samurai is, like,   super nice on Twitter. They're fucking assholes on Twitter.  

But it feels like they get attacked all the time for, like, not being private enough because, you know, you can use it without using your own full node, and then you use their node, but it defaults to Tor when most wallets don't default to Tor where they have coin control, where most wallets don't have coin control, where they don't have they don't take custody, they don't have KYC,   while the major lightning wallets have KYC and the   and a lot of people are most people are coming in through KYC.   I mean, the major lightning wallets are custodial, and most people are coming in through KYC.   And it just feels like there's just not that much focus on privacy in the Bitcoin space.  

And I just   like, what is what are we   what what is the next 5 years look like for Bitcoin privacy? Like, what what,   ideally, what is the optimistic take? Give me your optimistic take   on people using Bitcoin privately.  

[01:46:45] Unknown:

Yeah.   You know, I do preparations before podcasts, but   I was really trying hard to think   strategically about next 5 years and what are   5 most likely scenarios that will play out.   And,   if I am,   Yeah. That's a disappointment. I couldn't come up with any really optimistic scenario   because the most optimistic scenario for me   is that we start with,   names from ground up. Go back to what it is was, like, 2012   when Yeah. Well, that's not true.   Gavin   and what's the name of Mike Hern. They were like, oh, you you can't use names. You need to dox yourself in order to contribute to Bitcoin Core.   Yeah.  

Like, go back and change that because   I would like   to, to see me first way, way, way more like NIB developers in Bitcoin core,   but it's, it's hard to do that,   without getting the whole, yeah, public persona going on podcasts,   being presentable face of Bitcoin   development,   which has its benefits.   And I   it's an interesting strategy. But   the most optimistic scenario definitely would be that that we normalize   NIMs in Bitcoin core development,   work.   I mean, I will actually look a little bit into it, building a shadowy supercoder team,   but also not make one team, but make multiple teams.  

And then also normalize everything else that that you are saying that,   there is community wide support for,   coin selection, for coin join that we as a community are fighting this   insane regulation   in in a robust way,   and that   it's just all this stuff that should be normalized is normalized.   Way more likely scenario that I see is is   we'll just see more of   a sailor approach, which,   unfortunately,   he was public few times about, yeah, working with regulators, regulating preserving Bitcoin more as an investment   because that future still leaves   a lot of space for privacy. It's just   is it   it's not   maximizing   the number of people that are enjoying those?  



[01:49:39] Unknown:

You know, privacy is a is a fun way to be able to some people can I mean, people can use Bitcoin privately today? Yes. Like, don't get me wrong. Like   and I think it's achievable. Like, I I think I think the current tools we have right now are better than they've ever been in the past.   Both summary and join market are great.   Try and use them. Use your own using your own node is easier than ever.   A lot of the wallets we have   besides Bitcoin core like, Bitcoin Core is a great wallet.   It could use some UX improvements, but it's a good wallet. Sparrow's a great wallet. BlueWallet is a great wallet if you use it with your own node, same with Sparrow.   Moon is is is awesome for beginners in terms of UX, but, like,   the overwhelming majority of people are coming in. They're coming in through KYC.  

They're being fully surveilled in a way that the cash based economy didn't surveil them,   and they just don't even realize the trade off they're making. They just don't even realize   they don't even realize how much privacy they're giving up. They're just not even aware they're blissfully ignorant to it.   And, like, if you if you follow the sailor's school of thought down that line,   like, I mean, there's no reason to ban Bitcoin in that situation because just 90% of users are completely captured.   And they I don't even know if that's a better situation.   It's definitely not a better situation than a cash based economy.  



[01:51:14] Unknown:

Listen. It is a better situation economy anymore. So   It it is a better situation than,   CBDCs,   man. It's it's it is a better situation because when we are talking about, you can do this today, you can do this today. I mean, this is a link from your own page   about, hey. You can always go to a local meetup and buy,   Bitcoin non cable  

[01:51:39] Unknown:

ATMs too. I think people are sleeping on the ATMs. They're gonna get, we just   saw the UK banned a bun I think it was the UK banned a bunch of ATMs or banned all their ATMs.   But in a lot of places, especially in America at least,   you can still you can still buy Bitcoin at ATMs,   with just a phone number, and you can use a burner phone number. So,   and even if you don't use a burner phone number,   you know, everything has trade offs.   Using your regular phone number is definitely way better than, you know, providing a selfie and your passport and your Social security number and your bank account information, your home address and all that other shit.  

[01:52:19] Unknown:

Yes.   And,   this then brings us back to what you were saying is, is by the time that,   conflict starts, it's already too late. So   I would say, man, just like keep preaching because for people,   then people will realize that it's not only about,   number go up.   It's about having a stack of Sats   that is not, you know, no KYC.   And that in 10 years   frees you completely.   You know? Like, you you're free to transact while everyone else will be, like, cbdcs,   CBDCs are coming.   It's it's not something that we can stop.  

[01:53:01] Unknown:

Right. I mean, I I don't think CBDCs   are a threat to Bitcoin. I mean, obviously, Bitcoin is better than  

[01:53:07] Unknown:

that. It is better, but what what   you are worried about and, like, it's a worry that I share, but I look at it, you know, may maybe it's some I'm old. I'm uncle rock star. I'll die soon. But it's like, you can't wish more for people than they wish for themselves.   That that's just realization   that that after   being   idiotic altruist for most of my life,   I've I've just accepted it. So I am still altruist, but I try to focus my efforts   toward, like, who are the people that want my help?  

[01:53:41] Unknown:

To me, it's not it's not you know? I I   I'm a strong believer that Bitcoiners should have options. I think one of the beauties of an open permissionless system is that people can use it however the fuck they want. If people wanna use it, you know,   in a,   like, a   completely controlled   way where   they maybe get some kind of inflation hedge, but they're basically just asking permission from their government and from corporations for and they're holding a custodial, so be it.   I'm I'm more coming at it from, like, the builder perspective,   right, where   we need, like, we need to have the tools we need to have the tools there so when people get burned and they realize the need,   they can use the tools.  

And there's just, like I mean, you see,   I mean, you see, like, $1,000,000,000   hedge funds or venture funds coming into the space,   and they put it into, like, NFTs and all the garbage and stuff. And then, like, the privacy projects are, like,   struggling by, like, on on fucking   yeah. I'm not even gonna say pennies. Like, I'm sat on bare barely any funding,   you know, barely any support, barely any testing,   and it's like   it's like we'll be like, it feels like I just want us to be ready   when people realize the need.   That's that's   where   my concern and focus is, is on that, not necessarily convincing people of the need. I think they'll be I think they'll just get burned, and they'll they'll get convinced eventually. Like, they're   that's where we're going. We're going to the point where everyone's gonna get burned,   and they'll figure it out. But I just want like, I want the tools to be ready because building out the tools at that point,   especially if we need any kind of little soft forks or stuff,   or, like, any kind of liquidity. Like, a lot of privacy tools rely on this idea of privacy loves company, that you you need other people using it.  

These things take time.   Right? And,   I mean, and if we're gonna talk about specifically Bitcoin privacy,   like, look up timing analysis.   Like, all the   and you see it happen with all the big hacks and stuff. Like, if they if they rush and they get impatient,   they get hit with timing analysis, which is this idea that,   you know, if if you're if you're doing things in a predictable time,   if you send all your if you use Coin Join, but you send all your CoinJoin transactions at the same exact time with the same amount of denominations,   it's probably the same person.  

So these things take time and preparation,   and   and then there's, like, this whole other level of just   we've been groomed to be surveilled all our lives that people just, like, practice self censorship   where they just don't even wanna talk about it.   They don't even wanna have the conversation   because they're scared of the the ramifications, so they just don't even talk about it.  

[01:56:49] Unknown:

Well, we are talking about in fact. Yeah. But,  

[01:56:54] Unknown:

I mean, we get way more if we were talking about   how Bitcoin is designed to pump forever,   number go up, or   on chain metrics,   some bullshit,   Like, we We would get funding. Engagement right now. We would get funding. Yeah. We could just launch a company.  

[01:57:14] Unknown:

Well,  

[01:57:15] Unknown:

There's, like, what like, every every day you hear about, like, a brand new KYC on ramp that's valued at, like, $15,000,000.   You know? It's like, how many KYC on ramps do we need?  

[01:57:27] Unknown:

Citadel dispatch presented by Chainalysis.  

[01:57:30] Unknown:

I know. We  

[01:57:32] Unknown:

do. I I actually yeah. I I wanna see that one.   I don't know. I,   number 2 was, yeah, we we are talking about it. And then number 1, I I think, that,   turn your dirty fiat into bit by Bitcoin flyer workshop just became more interesting because   I'm going to force you to come up with   a wish list of,  

[01:57:59] Unknown:

soft forks in Bitcoin and stuff. Like, I don't I have a wish list of soft forks. I'm just saying, like, if if something require it.  

[01:58:06] Unknown:

You should because   I actually,   I feel pretty good where we are. It's just that you're right. I'm I'm I'm looking at the Bitcoiner dot guide and and instructions there. It's fucking horrible. Like, use Bitcoin privately here. Like, you have to like, you say, stick to buy Bitcoin. Your sticker should say  

[01:58:28] Unknown:

your stamp should be, like,   you need, like, 10 bills to put the instructions on how they should onboard.   No. Why not? The stamp should say buy bitcoin no k y c dot com.  

[01:58:41] Unknown:

Yes, please. Please bring a stamp that says like citadel,  

[01:58:45] Unknown:

no kyc only dot com.  

[01:58:47] Unknown:

Yes. Please do. Like, you were bringing that that stamp? Q and a runs that site.  

[01:58:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I would I like I try and reduce random. I try and reduce the amount of guides now because Bitcoin q and a is just such a legend. And at guides, you have to update all the time, so I just try and link to his guides as much as possible.  

[01:59:06] Unknown:

Matt, actionable discussion. You need to come with that stamp to to Bitcoin conference. I mean, it's already a.  

[01:59:13] Unknown:

I did a serial dispatch with Bitcoin q and a,   that is evergreen. That is, like, bit it's called Bitcoin for beginners, but it's more advanced   than, like, a tip typical Bitcoiners guide, and we try and go through everything,   that people should consider.   I will ask made a point in the chat, by the way, that that that code that discount code is open source, all caps, one word.  

[01:59:41] Unknown:

I would ask you which episode that was with Bitcoin q and a, but you're not Stephane. It's 43.  

[01:59:47] Unknown:

Oh my god. It's the only it's the one that I have to remember because I show it all the time.   Like, when I meet people on the streets, I say sidodisbad.com/cd   43.  

[01:59:58] Unknown:

Well,   you have new episode to show now. What is it? 59. Cildispatch.com/  

[02:00:05] Unknown:

c d   59.   Yeah. It's been a it's been a long run, this dispatch. It's,   we're over we're over 200 hours of of of Bitcoin discussion free, no pay walls,   no ads, no sponsors.   It can be done. It is being done.   And,  

[02:00:25] Unknown:

we have   actionable items after this   funeral   workshop.  

[02:00:33] Unknown:

Yeah. I look forward to kicking in Miami.  

[02:00:36] Unknown:

Digital identity.  

[02:00:38] Unknown:

Yeah.   This was great, Rockstar. I mean, we're hitting the we're at the 2 hour point. This is where I like to wrap up. I thank you for joining us again.   I always enjoy having conversation with you. I hope the freaks enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed it.   Before I wrap up, I always like to give our guests   a chance for final thoughts.   So you wanna hit us with some final thoughts?   He's speechless.  

[02:01:16] Unknown:

I am   because   I just enjoy being with you,   you know, all of you.   You are my tribe, and   we're going to make it.   You know, 10 years ago, we were talking about, yeah, where Bitcoin will be, what will happen? Well,   look at us now.   We thought when, when we were here, we will make it like now we need to keep pushing.   So   as I say,   see you in Miami and let's let's distribute   not only by Bitcoin   dirty fiat, but no kyc.com.  

[02:01:58] Unknown:

Like no kyconly.com.   I don't know what no kyc.com   links to.   Nokyconly.com.   Should probably check when no kyc.com   links to.   Let's go. But it definitely goes to Coinbase. Oh, no. The site can't be reached.   I think that's a great point to end it on. I appreciate you. I appreciate all the work you do. We didn't even really talk about btzpay server, but especially over at btzpay,   but also at strike.   To the freaks,   don't get   overwhelmed.   Don't get disillusioned.   Small improvements   help.   You don't have to do it all at once.   Take account for yourself, your tribe, your family. Try and improve yourself. Get rid of social media.  

Don't rely on Google so much, unplug the Alexa.   Literally, all the little improvements really do help,   And at scale, as more of us do them, it helps everyone.   You are making a difference, and I'm sorry that I'm a little bit,   fatigued recently.   I am   I am bullish on you guys, and I'm bullish on our on our family. We're gonna fucking kill it.  

[02:03:17] Unknown:

We got you, Matt.  

[02:03:20] Unknown:

Cheers. Thank you, Rockstar. Thank you, Freaks.   I will see you next oh, one more thing.   Rockstar, when are you getting to Miami?  

[02:03:29] Unknown:

April 6th.   Should I make it earlier?  

[02:03:35] Unknown:

That Tuesday   is April 5th. April 5th is when BitDevs is gonna be happening,   and then   which is funny because April 6th at the conference, the open source stage is supposed to be, like, modeled after bit devs, so it'll be, like, 2 bit devs in a row. But,   the father of bitdevs himself from New York bitdevs,   will be running bitdevs in Miami on April 5th.   Right before that, we will be doing a live sale dispatch at the same venue as BitDevs.   So if you are going to Miami, try and carve out that day as well if you wanna come join us for the live dispatch.   I don't know who the guests are gonna be yet. That's why I was asking Rockstar if he was gonna be there. I will be there.  

But I have 4 mics set up. I have a really nice venue set up.   I think it's it's gonna be a 100,000 sats a person, like, $40 a person.   And once it covers cost, the remainder is just gonna go into beer.   So if you're interested in that, just stay tuned. I'll probably   I gotta spin up a BTC pay for it. I haven't yet.   I'll have it I'll have it up by   by next   week. So just, pay attention to that and just be aware that that April 5th, there'll be an in person dispatch,   in Miami right before bid devs, and then you can just roll into bid devs afterwards if you if you wanna do that as well, which I strongly I strongly advise. But devs is fucking awesome.   Awesome. Well, much love, brother. Thanks again for joining us, and, thank you to all the freaks. Cheers.  

Cheers.   It'll take me away.   It'll take me away.   Take me away.   Much love, freaks.   Hope you enjoyed that rip as much as I did. Rockstar's a legend.   I'll see you on Tuesday for another dispatch.   Thursday,   it's gonna be an in person rip with me and Marty for a rabbit hole recap,   and then going to BitDevs in Austin. And then we have   Bitcoin takeover   on Friday,   in Austin at the Bitcoin Commons.   Me and Marty are hosting that. We have an insane lineup of panelists that will be joining us. It's almost like   a super meetup or a mini conference. I don't know. Like, 200 people.   Be good.  

And,   stay on both. Love you all. Cheers.