Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 57

BLOCK: 724509

PRICE: 2643 sats per dollar

TOPICS: donations, crowdfunding, btcpayserver, satsale, address reuse, bip47, circular economy, best practices for using funds after receipt, reducing friction, hosting donations for others

@coinjoiner: https://twitter.com/coinjoiner

@pavlenex: https://twitter.com/pavlenex

Full Transcript: https://chowcollection.medium.com/matt-odell-citadel-dispatch-e57-bitcoin-crowdfunding-donations-with-coinjoiner-pavlenex-6e30817b7736

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[00:00:01] Unknown:

Volatility ahead. This is scary moment. Marty Benn is the founder of Tales From the Crypto, a Bitcoin podcast. He joins us tonight to explain. Marty, thanks so much for coming on. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this, and it's easy to, you know, play the tape of people getting run over by horses, but the idea they could just seize your digital currency   strikes me as a very big deal.  

[00:00:23] Unknown:

Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, Tucker. But, yes, they can only seize your digital currency or Bitcoin if you're holding it on an exchange like you Right. Like you mentioned. It's much harder for them to seize it if you're   in control of your Bitcoin   by holding your own private keys, which is the beauty and the importance of Bitcoin as a monetary revolution. It allows you to actually control your money. It is a digital   bearer instrument. It is digital cash. So as long as people are taking control of their own private keys, it's it's significantly harder to   stop the spread of Bitcoin and prevent people from sending transactions.  



[00:00:58] Unknown:

So that's without getting too technical here, and thank you for saying that. So the the promise of cryptocurrency   is still in place that you can   operate transactionally without government oversight. How complicated is it not to use an exchange but to hold the keys for yourself? Would the average person   do something like that?  

[00:01:18] Unknown:

Yeah. It's very easy. I mean, there's plenty of mobile apps that you can go download,   whether it be Blue Wallet, Green Wallet. You can find those in your iOS stores or Android apps. These are open source wallets that anybody can download and easily create private keys and their their Bitcoin from an exchange directly to a wallet. They can back up their wallet with 12 words   that if they were able to memorize them, theoretically, they can walk around with their Bitcoin in their heads. So it's it's very simple to to access the software that enables you to take control   of your of your Bitcoin and and actually custody it yourself.  



[00:01:52] Unknown:

God. I mean, you gotta think if they're zeroing up people's bank accounts for political reasons, there's gonna be a rush to cryptocurrency. I mean, in in one sentence, do you expect that? Do you expect crypto to become more popular after this?  

[00:02:05] Unknown:

Oh, I I think certainly we've seen   the actions by the Canadian government,   wake people up. Like, oh, if they can do this to our bank accounts,   for protesting   about civil liberties. Like, how how far   will will they go to to stop us from transacting,   using the traditional system. And so I think over the last few weeks, people are really beginning to recognize the beauty,   of Bitcoin and the utility it provides as a distributed network that nobody can control as long as you're controlling your own Bitcoin and you have those words written down secured,   you   you have the the freedom to control your money.  



[00:02:43] Unknown:

Which is,   it turns out the core freedom.   Marty Bent, thanks so much for that explanation. Good to see you.  

[00:03:25] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy, Odell, here for Citadel dispatch 57.   Citadel dispatch is the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   If you're used to listening and watching us   on YouTube,   Marty had a controversial doctor on, so we are suspended from streaming to YouTube.   So if you're watching this on, Twitter and you're looking for a better platform to watch it, you can go to twitch.tv/citaldispatch,   or you can go to our bitcoin tv.com channel.   It's streaming from both of those places.  

As always, I wanna thank,   the many freaks who continue to support the show.   Dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsors.   Your support keeps us purely focused on actual Bitcoin discussion, and I really do appreciate it.   The easiest way to support the show is going to citadel dispatch.com/contribute.   We have a BTC pay server set up. You can contribute via lightning or on chain.   I also have a BIP 47 payment code there.   The most common I mean, the only way to send to that right now is samurai wallet, but, hopefully, in the future, looks like we're gonna get some more BIP 47 support, so other wallets will be able to send to that. That is on chain.   Another way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps.  

My two favorite are Breezewallet   and Fountain Podcasts. They work like regular podcast apps.   You   download the app.   You load it up with sats.   You search Siddle Dispatch, press the subscribe button, and then you can pick how many sats per minute you think, dispatch is worth. And then as you're listening, it'll stream sats, directly to my node.   You can also support the show via merch. We got our dispatch hat, cildispatch.com/stack.   And we have other partners that are providing merch,   other freaks,   which is which is greatly appreciated, including Quinsolo and BTC Pens. There's a flask up there, and   there's a pin and a magnet. Or maybe there's just a magnet for sale now. Maybe BTC pins, that was a limited time only on the pins.  

Anyway, we have a really important conversation today, very topical.   It's Bitcoin crowdfunding and receiving donations,   ideally with privacy best practices followed.   We're gonna try and model this conversation   off of the beginner's guide I did with   Bitcoin q and a. So we're gonna start it with a, basically,   a   clear, concise way of if you wanna start accepting Bitcoin donations or do a crowd fund, what is the best way for you to do it? And then from there, we're gonna go into deeper conversation.   As always, you can join the live chat. The easiest way to get to that is citadel dispatch.com, and then clicking that Citadel chat link and then following the instructions. It's hosted on Matrix.   Even when the show is not going on, we have   over 800 Bitcoiners in that room now, and there's just a lot of actionable Bitcoin discussion that happens throughout,   the week. So consider joining us there. It is   quickly becoming my preferred platform over Twitter   for actual Bitcoin discussion.  

So with all that said, I got some great guests for this topic.   The first guest is, Tony, who's joining for maybe the 5th time on dispatch. He's live in person at the studio with me. How's it going, Tony? It's good. Good to be here.  

[00:06:54] Unknown:

This is a super important topic. I'm glad that we have the guests that we have. Fuck. Yes. Thank you for joining us.  

[00:06:59] Unknown:

We have Pavel next from BTC page server. How's it going, Pavel next?  

[00:07:04] Unknown:

Hey, guys. Awesome as always. Super excited to discuss this important topic with you, gentlemen, so let's go.  

[00:07:12] Unknown:

Cheers. And we   have CoinJoiner. We have Nick, who's the lead maintainer of SatSale,   a lesser known  

[00:07:22] Unknown:

a lesser known project to accept Bitcoin donations that is extremely promising. How's it going, Nick? It's a pleasure to join the Freaks live. Thanks for having me. Likewise. To get into this.  

[00:07:33] Unknown:

Well, thank you for joining us. I'm very excited for this conversation.   So, I mean,   when we start here, we have,   obviously,   the elephant in the room is,   the Canadian government blocked,   traditional financial support,   crowdfunding platforms such as GoFundMe and GiveSendGo,   for the Canadian freedom protests that have been happening.   And a lot of people have moved over to Bitcoin. And there's a there was specifically one major fundraiser   that was using Tali coin,   which is   a a centralized platform that allows you to do self custody. So you don't host the whole thing yourself,   but you're able to actually hold your own keys and accept directly to your lightning node.  

That is maintained by DJ Booth.   Unfortunately, given, you know, government pressure and whatnot, he wants to lay low. He was invited,   to join us as were other people that were involved, in that   raise.   But I wanted to where I like, where do you guys think is the best place to start? If someone is   trying to,   is is trying to   raise Bitcoin,   for a cause, whether that's donations or whether that's a crowdfunding type of situation.   What are some things that they should be considering before they even begin that process?  

[00:09:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, maybe, we can start with what people have done traditionally,   which is sort of you see quite a lot is they post a Bitcoin address sort of in their bio or like the footer of their website.   And and the consideration you should really think about there long and hard is,   what privacy you're giving away when you when you post that address publicly and you reuse it for all your donors.   So I'm sure we'll get into sort of the consequences of  

[00:09:33] Unknown:

that. That yeah. That's a great point, Nick. So let's let's talk about that. So so tally the tally coin raise was using a fixed address. It is definitely the most common way of raising Bitcoin, just taking a Bitcoin address and pasting it   into whatever   medium you want to publicly post that in. It could be, you know, Twitter. It could be Facebook. It could be your website.   What is the downside of that, and what should people be considering there?  

[00:10:01] Unknown:

So so when you post an address like that publicly,   basically, everyone can go and look that address up in a block explorer. So, like, menpool.space   or,   any other block explorer. And they can go and look at all the donations that have you you've received,   and   they can so they can see, that that you've got you've received, like, 2 Bitcoin donations.   And they can also, like,   do some sort of analytics on that and just try and figure out maybe who donated   or that could link,   your donors,   to that donation,   fundraising.   And the other thing is that   when you go to spend that money,   now those that those UTXOs   have sort of been   publicly linked to your identity.  

So   you're receiving all this Bitcoin in the address, and everyone knows   that that address belongs to you because you posted it on your website or on your Twitter.   So people can sort of follow what you do with that money once you've raised it.  

[00:11:11] Unknown:

Yeah. For   me, just naming it an address is a little bit of an UX problem because people   know that they have single email. They have address where they live. So it's like an an unique identifier that they use to receive donations. So   addresses, I like to tinker them as invoices. You   generate an each invoices   invoice when you are getting paid,   traditionally. So if we were to call address,   payment request in a way or an invoice, I think   It could help people understand that they shouldn't be,   reusing addresses because that's one of the basic   privacy new news as Nick explained.  

So I I think it can also be, you know, then just just the naming problem because people you know, I generated an address, and now I can put it in. As you mentioned, traditionally, they've been putting it everywhere, and it is so easy to   you know, be able to think Bitcoin is, you know, anonymous, but it's really not. And it's very easy to see through blockchain what's going on, who donated, and you   can very easily, basically,   the an deanonymize the the   donors and people who, you know, are supporting your cause, which is exactly what happened with the Canadian Truckers. Right? Right. So you wanna talk about what happened with their fixed address  

[00:12:35] Unknown:

for the freaks?  

[00:12:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. Like, I haven't been following the story,   like, very closely, but   on   most basic level from what I understood,   they've been reusing   address in order to, receive   payments in Bitcoin through the from their donors. So,   basically, Canadian government and please correct me if I'm wrong because I've been just following this on Twitter. So, Canadian government basically blacklisted those addresses, and now they cannot use those funds. Am I am I right? Or is Yeah. So they they they reused an address or, I guess, they reused an invoice if we're gonna go by your nomenclature.  

[00:13:19] Unknown:

And that was very obvious to determine. You just went to, the donation website, and you could just see that every time you clicked on chain, it was the same address. You could put it into a block explorer, whether that's a hosted block explorer like mempool.space,   or if it's a local block explorer that you're running with your own node,   which could also be mempool,   they or, like, a block stream dot info. You put it in there, and you could see all donations. Now   what happens in that situation? 2 things happen. First of all,   your transactions after,   donations are received. What you do with that money afterwards,   can be tracked.  

And it's important to realize that   even if something's not being actively tracked, the blockchain is forever. This ledger of transactions that we have of Bitcoin,   if we are correct, will outlive all of us,   so it can be used in the future against you. But not only can future transactions be tracked,   it can also be used to determine donors.   One of the traditional financial   tools that was used,   before the ban came into place was this website called GiveSendGo,   and they required KYC to donate,   using fiat. And what happened was they got hacked, they were storing that information insecurely,   and now there's a list of donors out there,   that are being doxxed,   that are being harassed, that are being there's articles being written about them. These people are in your community. They're supporting,   these protesters. You should cancel them. So it exposes the donators, and it also exposes,   the people or   the flow of funds after the fact.  

Now the Canadian government,   in this specific case   chose to basically issue a quiet blacklist order,   alongside   a freeze order that was a court order that was public.   The blacklist order went out to regulated services,   in Canada, regulated Bitcoin services in Canada. It said if if you interact,   with this address or   a derivative address, so an address that comes after it,   please report all that information to us, you know, the identity of the people that interacted with it, what they're doing with it.   So they don't have and, by the way, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this opening clip that we had on CIL dispatch 57   been showing,   mainstream media clips for 56 episodes. Now 57 was our own boy, Marty.  

He was on Fox talking about this. So shout out to him. It's a massive fucking accomplishment. Very proud of him. Watched that live.   He actually,   he's he's on a family vacation staying at an Airbnb, and Fox drove a studio van outside of his Airbnb.   And Marty walked out barefoot and did the interview barefoot, which is fucking baller.  

[00:16:06] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah. I saw that, the Photoshop of him doing it in the pool.  

[00:16:11] Unknown:

That's so good. Yeah. That's because he did the rabbit hole recap previously with me in the pool, and someone photoshopped it in. It was one of the best photoshops I've seen.   But yeah. So so they can't actually freeze   Bitcoin that is being held self custody. And Marty made a very good point of saying that on Fox.   But what they can do is they can track it, and they can make your life as difficult as possible and stop you from interacting with regulated exchanges. And that's what they did. They issued this freeze order.   The funds were still distributed to truckers that are involved in the protests.  

Those those transactions are very obvious on chain. You can see the flow of funds to those people.   They also went   another step, and they took videos of of them giving it to the truckers. So the actual truckers that received it are known. So we know how much Bitcoin they have. We can watch their transactions. We know,   who they are specifically. So they've already had their banks account seized. In most situations, they've had their insurance cut, and now they're known to be holding this Bitcoin,   and their transactions going forward can be tracked.   So,   that's what happens when you're reusing an address.  

Fortunately, in Bitcoin,   we have the ability to   not reuse addresses. Oh, and, actually, I would add on top of this,   the tally coin fundraiser accepted lightning   as well as on chain.   The Lightning,   transactions   far outnumbered the on chain transactions, but the actual amount   was significantly less. It was something like, you know, 95%   of the value that was transmitted to the fundraiser was done so on chain,   but,   maybe 60% of the actual number of payments was done via Lightning. And this doesn't   they have not been able to necessarily actively track those Lightning payments.   It was obvious that it was going to BTC Sessions node.  

So there's other aspects there,   that people should keep in mind.   If you go it we'll probably keep the lightning side minimal, but if you go to cildispatch.com/cd21, cildispatch 21, that is where we discuss all the nuances of lightning privacy, so people should go there if they're they're interested. But, anyway, fortunately, we have the ability   to receive   Bitcoin   without   re address reuse. And 2 of the ways of doing that is BTC pay server, which Pavel, next is is   a major part of that open source project. And the another way is SatSale, which Nick is the lead maintainer of. So should we go into   should we go into how how someone could could set up one of those instances to receive Bitcoin in a more private way?  



[00:19:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure.  

[00:19:04] Unknown:

Do you wanna start?  

[00:19:07] Unknown:

Well, BTC pay server is older, so I guess they have a kick start.   So, yeah,   like, BTC pay server is an open source   payment processor,   which allows you to   basically accept Bitcoin payments whether you're a merchant or just   trying to raise fund funds for your cause. It's a self hosted piece of software, which means you're hosting it on your own terms, on your own servers,   and you're in complete control of the private keys that you have.   So you you basically own the entire payment   platform, and I'm assume it's very similar to,   your project, Nick. Right?  



[00:19:51] Unknown:

Mhmm. Yep. Yep. Very similar.  

[00:19:53] Unknown:

From from what I understood, like, yours is a little bit more lightweight, but you probably wanna pitch it in a better way than I do. Why don't we I think a good format here is, Pavel, why don't you go through BTC pay server? It's the one that most Bitcorners are more familiar with.   And then we'll have Nick,   talk about the different trade off decisions he made that differentiated,   from BTC Pay. And, also, like, let's highlight the fact that I mean, Pavel, you have run crowdfunding   through BTCPay.   Big one was bitcoin smiles, I believe, dot org,   in El Salvador. So let's talk about that a little bit and your experiences and how someone might go and use BTCPay. Like, in practice, like, okay.  

I wanna raise funds with BTCPay. How do I do that?  

[00:20:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Okay. Let's let's talk, with by giving an example.   Actually, that's better. So I'm sure the listeners are familiar with, for example, software like WordPress, which you basically allows you to create a website, you host it, and you can, you know, write your own blog post. It's very similar with BTC based server. It's a self hosted software which you're running,   which allows you to accept Bitcoin payments.   We do allow you to connect with your ecommerce platforms like, WooCommerce, Shopify, and others, Magento, and a few others. But, also, we have a software.   Actually, we call them apps, which allow you to run an entire website   on top of your payment platform. And, you can have   point of sale application if you're a merchant accepting Bitcoin in in retail. But for our discussion, I think the one which is very interesting is a crowdfunding application,   which we built, I believe, 3 years ago now now, and, we had several successful big campaigns. If you remember, Matt,   Huddl Note campaign was hosted on BTC based server crowdfunding. It was our first use case where we raised, funds for our   fellow Bitcoiner who had the, you know, loss of problems. Let's know maybe go into that specific case. But   then we did,   one of crowdfunding for Bitcoin for Tor.  

And now we have,   bitcoin smiles dotorg, which listeners can go ahead and, you know, type in bitcoin smiles dotorg, and you will see,   a website where when you click donate, it leads you to a separate   server payment server, which,   you know, they are hosting, and you can simply send payments to them. A BTC pay server is you can think of it as an invoice management system, which generates invoices for your donors.   It is unlike the example we gave earlier. BTC based server does not   reuse address. So we create whenever a payment is detected   and wherever an invoice is generated. Whenever somebody clicks donate on Bitcoin Smiles, for example,   we generate a brand new invoice. And when it's paid or when it expires, we will simply show another one for, you know, whoever else wants to donate. So there is never address we use   with, BTC pay server, and that is, like, one of our first things that we built into software is never reusing addresses. In in any way, we strongly discourage   that.  

So I'm not sure. Was that clear, or do you want me to go a little bit deeper on how it works? But maybe for this, it's  

[00:23:09] Unknown:

enough. One of the things I'm curious about specifically is since you do have so many different options for BTC pay separate donations,   like, what what is one that you would suggest over the other and and and why? Like, you have crowdfunding and then you have, you know, donation pages, as an option. Is there one particular reason to use one over the other?  

[00:23:28] Unknown:

Yeah. So they have different features for crowdfunding.   For example, you can, set up a goal. For example, I'm raising 1 Bitcoin, and then it will show you progress bar, and it's very interactive way. Peep you can even have special sound effects,   you know, animations when people donate, things like that.   If you want to go a little bit more lightweight or simpler way, you can have,   for example, a simple page which just, has a payment button on our end where people can just input a number of $5   or 5 Bitcoin or whatever currency you set up on your end, and then it will do the same thing. It generates an invoice, shows it. So on,   like, very simply explain, it's very it works in a similar way. It just has different,   user interface, basically.  

We,   we built it with flexibility   in mind, so we try to have, like, as many options and give freedom to people to customize their own pages   and things like that. So that it's   technically, it works very similarly. It's just the UI that's different for all these features.  

[00:24:32] Unknown:

Right. And then with the crowdfunding approach, you can actually,   people can visibly   not on the block explorer, but through your through your UI, they can see kind of the status of the crowdfunding. And that almost, like, builds a network effect. And, you know, if you're, like, 80% on the way there, everyone comes forward and tries to get the last 20%.   So but it does that in you know, while still not using the same address. Like, it I'm guessing that uses, like, the XPub behind the scenes to kinda visibly so show outsiders,   that status.  



[00:25:02] Unknown:

Yes. Yes. That's entirely correct.   It it uses, yeah, XPub or public key, which you just input and you can have your   private key stored offline.   And, you know, we just generate addresses based on that,   public key that you input. So   it's very simple.  

[00:25:24] Unknown:

And,   for actually setting up a BTC pay server, I think, 2 of the things you guys have done really well. I mean,   BTC pay in a lot of ways has kind of become   the   the classic project someone points to in terms of a successful open source project in the Bitcoin space that's not Bitcoin Core, because you just have such a huge community of open source contributors there. And that's not just developers. You have all this documentation   in terms of how to actually set it up. Right? So you can use any VPS,   and and you guys have, basically, step by step instructions.   A VPS is a virtual private server. For these types of things, would you guys agree that you usually should have,   basically, like, a a a a cloud server that is running your donations rather than actually running it from, like, your closet or something like that.  



[00:26:22] Unknown:

Well, yeah, I agree. Because,   for best performance, I guess, it is better to have it run on a virtual private server on a cloud because it is available, like, 247,   you know, at home. You can have you you can run BTC based around a Raspberry Pi, but I'm not sure if it's, like, as reliable as it is on a VPS. But, you know, these small devices are getting better and better, and who knows? Maybe one day it will be even better to to run it that way. Though it also has some privacy implications   by running it on a virtual private server, you're basically giving responsibility   to whoever is hosting that server where you can have,   your Bitcoin stored in your wallet at home.  

And your IP address can be, you know, somewhere in Germany or wherever the server is hosted. Of course, that is the attack factor on itself because then government can shut down that server, but then again, you can easily   redeploy it on a different environment. So or or a different provider in this case. And that's, I mean, that's more risky. So I actually was I  

[00:27:33] Unknown:

that's one of the things that I just have in the back of my head is, like, the question of, you know, how far the Canadian government wants to go because, you know, one of the providers that you guys constantly recommend is Luna Node because it's so cheap,   yet reliable,   and they're based in Canada. So you could see a situation where governments actually go and try and shut down,   these server accounts,   because it is visible, and anyone can really tell. I mean, a sophisticated actor can tell,   where you're hosting it based on IP address.   But at least with the on chain funds, the on chain funds, your actual private key, the spend key for your funds is not on the server,   so your funds aren't necessarily at risk. You just need to go and redeploy. Now on Lightning,   that's a little bit different, right, because you have a hot wallet on the server.  



[00:28:24] Unknown:

Yeah. That's correct. That's the way Lightning works. It needs to be a hot wallet, and it needs to be available online in order to, you know, accept,   payments. So   that's a technical challenge.   But, yeah, for, probably, for, if you're, like, concerned about,   somebody's maybe, you know,   shutting your server down and stealing your Bitcoin, you can either withdraw regularly   or,   yeah, basically, keep it on chain and secured,   offline as you mentioned, Matt.  

[00:28:57] Unknown:

And then the other thing that I feel like is important to highlight when the BTC pay server conversation comes up is right now, our friends at, voltage,   voltage dot cloud,   they are a Bitcoin infrastructure company that offers   VPSs   that you can pay with with Bitcoin without KYC.   And right now, they offer LND for lightning, and they offer a one click BTC pay server. So you can go there, and you can literally just pay them Bitcoin,   go through the steps, follow their instructions, and get a BTC pay server up and running, fairly easily.  

[00:29:36] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's right. Voltage guys are really doing awesome job. It's probably becoming even easier with what we had with Luna node. But all these hosting providers are just doing their best to provide, you know, best hosting server   service for the software that we are creating. So for us, it is, like, very important that,   these people in a way compete and try to provide better service and that we have,   many alternatives. Ideally, we want, you know, BTC based server to be available like you have WordPress now. Like, any hosting provider can allow you one click installation   of WordPress. Any BTC based server becomes popular, and   I can see, like, even more,   companies basically wanting to, you know, generate   money just by having an easy way to deploy BTC based server and, in that regard, decentralizing.  

But, you know, BTC based server isn't just limited to these providers. You can run it with 4 lines of command line on any virtual private server that has, like, 2 gigabytes of RAM and 60, you   know, storage. So   it's,   really easy to it's not as easy to do it with the with these Vault Edge and Luna node managed hosting, but it it you can really do it on any any virtual private server that, you know, meets these minimum requirements. And which aren't ideal, like, you know, it requires   some resource resources because we are doing lots of things in the background for you so that you can, you know, easily   have a a UI to to accept Bitcoin payments. But yeah.  



[00:31:12] Unknown:

Do you ever see any,   Tor options,   for some of these provide some of these providers? I love the whole one click deploy thing, but I don't know if I've ever seen, like, a Tor option.  

[00:31:23] Unknown:

When you say Tor, do you mean, like, your payment Yeah. Just payment gateway   would be like an onion site?  

[00:31:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. So, like, just onion only for those that don't want to reveal, like, what, you know, VPS or IP that they may be using.  

[00:31:39] Unknown:

Yes. We we do that out of the box. BTC based server can be so,   if you're from looking at from the perspective of people wanting to donate, for example, if you go to a payment page of Bitcoin Smiles, like, not the main site, but the   donation,   and you access it through Tor browser,   it will pop up an onion address where you can, you know, be directed to to access it that way if that's what you're referring to. I'm not sure. Yeah. Exactly. But, I mean, the main trade off there, Tony, is that  

[00:32:09] Unknown:

someone needs to be running Tor. Yeah. And the easiest way of being Tor Browser to access your donation page, so you're gonna get less people.   If you're gonna do that, though, if you're if you're fine with that trade off, then all of a sudden, you might not even need a VPS in the first place. Because I would say   the biggest,   the biggest bottleneck of, you know, using one of these 247 node boxes at home to run your BTC pay server   is if you don't wanna expose your IP address, it's Tor only. But if you're fine with Tor only,   then it's not I I I don't I don't think it's that impractical to necessarily just, like, run it from a closet somewhere,  

[00:32:48] Unknown:

at an office or home and and just have it out there on on an onion address. Yeah. Exactly. Especially for those that may already be running their lightning node on their Right. At their home, but they're not using IP at all. They're just using Tor. So I'd imagine, like, being able to you know, maybe for something as, like, you know, global and widespread as as, you know, what's going on in Canada, you know, your box maybe get hit hit a lot. But if it's just like, you know, the everyday user just trying to, you know, raise some funds, from, you know, just people out there, not like a super popular thing that's gonna hit get hit a lot, You know, Tor may still be a good option for you.  

[00:33:24] Unknown:

Yes. Right. Yeah. This is only   yeah. Sorry. But this is only, yeah, the the UX, I guess, and the people   wanting to access the website through   their browser. But, one good thing, there is that if you're using Tor and accessing,   for example, I'm, now referring to Bitcoin Smile. But if you're accessing that donation,   crowdfunding patch, it will just pop up a warning and say, hey. This one is available in that onion. Do you want to, you know, be directed there? And people using Tor can go there, and the ones that aren't will just, you know, see normal page. So that's a little bit of UX improvement that we also did. But I agree. It can be done. It just depends,   if you're willing to sacrifice, you know, what a a little bit of, you know, u usability   and UX in order to be more private and more secure or whatever. But  

[00:34:18] Unknown:

Yes. So you could run BTC pay server or Satsail,   from your home, like, on a Raspberry Pi,   without Tor.   But, yeah, I I sort of really tend to to discourage that because you are every time someone goes to make a donation,   the payment page is gonna make a request to your IP address,   to to fetch a new address   or a new address for every donation.   And   that could leak your public IP address, which is probably not something you wanna have happen, especially if you're also running your Bitcoin node on that IP.   It could open you up to a number of, like, attacks and,   whatnot.  



[00:35:01] Unknown:

And, I mean, it it lets your ISP know that you're using Bitcoin. It lets people know,   it lets, like, the average user know your rough location down to, like, the city level. A sophisticated actor could actually   figure out your exact, you know, home address or office address that you're running it in.   There's a lot of privacy leaks if you're if you're running ClearNet from home. Right?  

[00:35:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's,   it's a bit of a tricky problem. So, yeah, VPS is a a sort of   I agree with Pavlinx that that's that's the way to go, I think.   Because, yeah, at the moment, I don't think enough people are using,   Tor sort of natively or or frequently enough to make it sort of viable to get enough donations through an onion,   payment gateway.  

[00:35:51] Unknown:

I would I I tend to agree with you. I would say that Bitcorners are probably,   more,   predisposed   to used for. But even among us,   it definitely feels like it's still the minority.  

[00:36:06] Unknown:

Yeah. It's not the first thing I use, but at least, like, if you're setting this up and you care about that, at least as an option, like, that's you know, in the back of your head, you can at least think about that when   when, you know, evaluating using, you know, one of these services.   That's a good point.  

[00:36:20] Unknown:

So, I mean, I think that's a pretty good quick overview   of what BTC page server brings to the table.   Nick, you wanna talk about the differences with Satsale and what you're attempting to do with that project and the different trade offs you've made?  

[00:36:35] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure.   So Satsale   is a lightweight,   Bitcoin payment processor,   and it connects to your own Bitcoin node or or lightning network node.   And so we have,   definitely not as many features as the BTC pay server guys have.   So we do have donation pages, and you can embed like a like a donation button on your website.   We also have a payment gateway for WooCommerce, so you can use it for sort of, merchant payments.   And you can also use it for sort of more general applications. So it does have this,   sort of payment API in the background. You could use it for a variety of other,   Bitcoin,   payment things. For example, I've seen it used as actually as a CAPTCHA. So a lightning CAPTCHA. So every time you wanna leave a comment on a website, you might have to pay, like, a 15 sat lightning invoice,   and then sat sale will confirm that that that invoice has been paid, and then you're allowed to, post that comment,   on that website.  

So   so SatSale,   you can   the the there's sort of 2 ways to to use it at the moment.   The first   is you can download it in your Umbrel app store. So if you're running Umbrel,   Bitcoin node on a Raspberry Pi, you can find that sale,   in that app store. But the one of the problems with that is that, yes, it's not on a VPS. It'll be at your home IP, and that's that's not really,   ideal,   for the reasons we just discussed earlier.   So the the way I recommend that people   set up sat sale at the moment is to yeah. You you like BTC pay, you might rent a VPS for, say, 2, 3, $4 a month.   And what you do is you would,   point that VPS to to look,   at your Bitcoin nodes. You might have a Raspberry Pi at home,   and you're renting this VPS somewhere in another country or wherever,   and,   you install sat sale on the VPS,   and you give,   SatSale   sort of the your your home IP address and and your Bitcoin,   it's called RPC   authentication,   username and password or or cookie file.  

And and then when you run SatSale, it's like a a web server that,   you can you can   initiate donations through. And so when you go to   make a new donation,   Satsale   will reach out to your Bitcoin node at home. So it'll it'll   fetch a new address, and it will display that,   on the web server, the Satcell web server,   and it will continuously monitor that address to check that a payment,   has been made.   Is there anything else I missed there?   So, yeah, SatSale is sort of like a it's a lot more smaller.   Definitely nowhere near as many features as BTCPay.   For example, BTCPay has pay joins, which I think is really, really, really awesome.  

Something I definitely wanna   look into at some point.   But I like to think it's quite   modular and extendable and   customizable for for whatever you might need. So for example,   the   the the payment page, like, the donation button itself is all very   very very,   basic,   HTML and sort of CSS. It's very it doesn't look great. I'll admit that.   But it means it's,   modifiable and and you can customize it. So you could very easily, like, replace the logos with, say, your company business logo, and   you could you could change it all around quite easily to to customize it for whatever purpose you have.  

[00:40:33] Unknown:

That's awesome. So   right now, SatSale   has,   you know, has a store option. It has, like, a donation option, like, an HTML snippet option.   And I believe you're also on on WooCommerce as well. Is that is that correct? Yeah. Just WooCommerce at the moment,  

[00:40:49] Unknown:

for for the ecommerce sites.   We don't have a   a crowdfunding   page just yet. So we don't have a page that sort of adds up the sum of all the donations and displays,   like a goal or anything like that, but it's definitely something I'm I'm pretty keen in building.  

[00:41:11] Unknown:

Another thing I noticed about,   Satsale is that   is that is that you have, BIP 47 support.   What are your thoughts on that,   and how do you see it playing into   the offering at Satsail?  

[00:41:30] Unknown:

That's a really interesting question. It'd be very topical of late.   So bit 47   are these, for those who don't know, they're,   reusable payment codes.   So, essentially,   everything we said it before about not reusing addresses,   you could actually sort of get away with with bit 40 seven. So you can have a a single sort of payment code   or QR code,   and   every individual user who scans that,   payment code, it sets up   sort of like a like a,   like a private   address channel.   So   you and the recipient   are both able to produce addresses,   that no one else is able to to derive. Only you as the sender and the recipient   of those   donations are able to,   derive these addresses from the payment code.  

And so for that sale,   on the main donation screen at the moment, you can you can we've got a little script that can inject   your   your pay name. So in the config file, you can just type in, you know, my pay name is royal cell 593.   Satsale will go and grab your   your   bit 47 payment code from paynim.is,   and it will,   display that that QR code and as well as a link to your paynim,   on the on on the front donation page.   And that's, that's sort of an alternative way of,   donating to someone.   It doesn't actually   there's no way at the moment for SatSale to confirm that you've made a donation   using a bit 47 payment code,   because those payments are very private. Because that's the point. Recipient.  

Exactly.  

[00:43:24] Unknown:

So,   first of all, we have someone in the chat saying that they can't find Satsale, and they spelled it like the boat sail. It's spelled it's spelled like, you know, like a fire sail. So satsale.org.   If you're listening via the podcast,   and you and you want more information, that's where you go.   So, I mean, I thought this was interesting because to me,   so first of all, I   BIP 47,   is fucking awesome.   And, unfortunately,   even though it was proposed,   maybe 5 years ago, 6 years ago,   it's a couple developers, a couple core developers   decided that it was a little bit spammy on chain. They considered it spam because there's a notification transaction,   and,   they universally discouraged it for implementation. So the only,   2 wallets that currently support it are Samurais and Sparrow,   and Samurais the only one that supports sending to it.  

Samurai also has a feature called   Pay NIMs, where they take   your payment code. So your payment code is just locally generated   text string. It it can it looks like a Bitcoin address.   You know, it doesn't start with b c one. It starts with,   I believe, PM,   but it looks like a Bitcoin address. It's just letters and numbers.   It's locally generated. It doesn't rely on a centralized server.   Now they have this website, paynim.is,   that links a human readable name   to that payment code.   That is a trusted directory of payment codes. So if you're going and fetching a payment code from there, you're putting trust in the samurai team that they're not putting a incorrect payment code. They're they're not putting in their own payment code, or they're not getting man in the middle of them putting in a different payment code. So the ideal situation is you're hosting that payment code in many different places,   so people can verify it. And one of the cool aspects of BIP 47 is once you have that payment code,   you never need to fetch it again. You can generate   new addresses that only you and the receiver know every time you wanna pay them, and you never have to go back to it. Similar to, like, if you have someone's PGP key,   you can just hold on to that PGP key and just constantly use it for encrypting.  

Now I brought up PGP   can be very useful in a BIP 47 environment because if someone knows your PGP key, you can sign   a bit 47 payment code with your PGP key so they can verify it that way as well. Now PGP has its own set of adoption issues. Unfortunately, a lot of BitCorners don't use it. You can find my p g p key at sidildispatch.com/pgp.   I would like to see more people use that. But, anyway, my question to you, Nick,   is, to me, one of the cool parts of BIP 47   is that   I don't need to run something on a VPS. I don't have to run SatSale on a VPS. I don't have to run BTCPay   on a VPS. I don't have to pay a server provider   or have uptime. All I need to do is post this payment string somewhere,   and someone can pay me from their wallet.  

Do you not see it as almost, like, an alternative   to something like SatSale rather than having like, it's interesting to me that you have it integrated into something like SatSale. Because if you already have   if you already have the SatSale instance,  

[00:46:41] Unknown:

Right? It's like Why would you? Why would you? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point.   I I like giving people the option, so I'll probably   add some   other   payment methods like bolt 12,   for for lightning,   reusable   payment codes.   Yeah. It's it's sort of it's not it's like so you can't SatSale itself can't actually   monitor payments   that have been made to that that bit 47 payment code like you said.   So,   you wouldn't be able to, like, use bit 47   if you were doing things like a merchant checkout. Or you could, but   not not just yet, at least with how,   no platforms exist for that just yet.  

Because   Satsale doesn't know,   the secret,   for to or it doesn't know which addresses to look to look for,   and and check whether a payment's been made to that address.   So so, yeah, it is it is quite different,   and it and I I really like it. It is it's a really useful   sort of solution to this problem is you wanna receive money   and but you don't wanna have to host a a web server that spits out a new address every time.   So BIPs 47 is a really cool solution for,   just being able to paste something in your bio or at the bottom of your website, and people can just reuse it over and over, and you don't have to worry about any privacy issues.  

[00:48:13] Unknown:

So, I mean, I'm gonna do the thing where,   I ask the question, and then I answer the question that I asked.   It's to me to me, the reason you have,   the ability to display your bit 47 payment code   directly in SatSale interface   is because at the end of the day, it's good to give Bitcorders   options. More options are better. And as someone you know, Citi dispatch relies on donations, and right now, I'm using BTCPay.   So if you go to sidlaldispatch.com/contribute,   you can donate through BTCPay. But because I can't   show that payment code directly into the flow, the payment code is right underneath it. Right? So it's nice Mhmm. If someone's accepting donations that, you know, you go to this one page and just, like, nice, pretty,   everything is that you want displayed there for all the different options that people can pay.  

And then the big advantage of of something like BTCPay   or   SATSale over just a static BIP 47 code is that you can receive,   Lightning as well.   Mhmm. And a lot of people like paying with Lightning. Lightning does give the sender some additional privacy benefits.   It's not great for receiver privacy, but it's pretty good for sender privacy.  

[00:49:26] Unknown:

Yeah. And then at this point, like, all the options explained. So, like, if I'm going through and I'm about to donate to you and and I see the option that is, like, the most, you know, private or,   the most private option donate to you, like, you could be a controversial cause, and, you know, I I really don't want that linking back to me. So I'm gonna, you know, pick which one is is the best for my privacy.   And I I think I think it goes along. Give the sender options. Yeah. Give the sender options. You know, give the Bitcoiners,   you know, the options for the most private. So, you know, I would use something like paying them or or lightning as a sender,   in those scenarios where I'm donating.  



[00:50:02] Unknown:

Pavel, you have any opinion on on BIP 47?  

[00:50:07] Unknown:

I have a lots of thoughts as you guys were talking.   So   I think, you know,   it all comes down to,   why is this sit why are we in this situation that for a simple donation, you need to run a server.   It's not on BTC based server. It's not on Satsail to, you know what what we are trying to do is just, you know, find,   our way to offer people   a a way to donate in a way that it doesn't infringe their privacy. So we're, in a way, hacking around the protocol   in order for people to be able to accept Bitcoin, but that   that shouldn't be the case. Like, payment processors like BTCPay   and Setsail should be there to allow   merchants and people wanting to manage invoices   and people wanting to connect to the   WooCommerce,   Magento. I don't know. Whatever,   CMS or content management system they have out there.  

Bitcoin as a protocol   needs to evolve beyond, you know,   people reusing address. We need to have these unique identifiers that, protect people privacy in my way. And I think,   what Samura has done is   been there for quite a while, and it's, at least encouraging to see people adopting it. I personally haven't looked, into protocol, and I don't see how we can implement it into BTC based server.   But I envision the future where we could be able to pay,   to one another without thinking about invoices, addresses, or whatnot. I'm just Pablonex sending to Matt, and it will payment will be made. I enter Matt   at unique identifier or whatever similar,   in which way,   bolt,   12 or lightning addresses or URL work.  

That's the future I want to see. I want to see future where you as a user can just install a wallet and accept a damn donation. You don't you don't have to run this complex infrastructure,   But, yeah, we are still not there, but one day, I I believe we will be. For now, these are your options. You know?   Bitcoin will evolve.   Lots of work is being done   on these,   you know, unique identifiers I like to call them. I'm not sure if it's even technically correct, but   yeah. So,   what we are doing is trying to hack around for now.   BTC based server has always been a project,   implementing others people idea, trying to, you know,   give other projects and protocols a way to evolve and find the user base. So that's why we do all these things. But at the end of the day,   when we think about it, it shouldn't really be that hard. Like, people should just be able to put a damn QR code in the website or something very unique, and people should be able to send them money. Like,   if you're for example, I don't know, Wikipedia   or, I don't know, Tor project, and you want to have invoices. You have an accountant willing to, you know, you need accounting. You need to maybe give prizes to people donating. Of course, you need a payment server,   to handle all these complexities for you. But if you're just, I don't know, guitar player wanting to get donations for for whatever, like, it really should be just your wallet. So giving you,   unique way to to accept Bitcoin without you having to think around with servers and whatnot. I'm not sure if you guys agree, but, I really wish that the future. So I mean, I I think I mean, look, a perfect example of the power of something like BIP 47  

[00:53:36] Unknown:

is well, first of all, I just wanted to add that if you are using the crowdfunding feature of BTCPay,   you guys don't actually even need to do any development on your side. Someone can just put their payment code in, like, that description field of, the crowdfund,   if they want to. But if you wanna talk about, like, the power of something like BIP 47,   like, my Twitter banner just has my BIP 47 QR code. It's just fixed there.   I don't use any other social media, but you could imagine you could put that in your your Facebook banner or your LinkedIn profile picture or whatever   fucking social media you use because it's just a static QR code that can always stay there without address you use. It's massively powerful in that regard. Right?  



[00:54:16] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really is.   So at the moment, the biggest criticism   of bit bit 47,   is that when you wanna make a payment to someone for the first time using their payment code,   you have as you said, Matt, you have to make that notification transaction.   So this notification transaction,   it it's   it lets the recipient know that,   they should start looking   they should start scanning these sort of addresses   and check for incoming payments.   And   and so there's some criticism of of that is that it requires   more   transactions   to   to sort of make one payment. You're sort of making 2 transactions   for 1 payment.  

But but I I don't I don't think that should sort of get in the way of,   what is really a a really strong privacy tool.  

[00:55:14] Unknown:

And, I mean, the reason just to add here, like, so you could do something   like BIP 47. You could do these payment codes without the notification transaction.   But then your your your base this is my, you know, basic understanding of it.   You're doing that communication out of band, so you're you'd have to be doing that off chain.   Now the cool part about the notification transaction you know, Nick just went through the negative, which is you're making additional   Bitcoin transaction, and that's the part that was considered spam. The cool part means that you don't have to do any additional backup. If you just have your seed phrase, your secret words,   it can recover your payment code. It can recover all of your different generated addresses with all the different people that, you've you made transactions with before, all from that single   seed. If you do it out of band, then all of a sudden, you need to actually keep, like, a digital backup   that ideally is encrypted,   that can have, you know, bit rot, and, like, the the computer drives can fail. It it's it's way more difficult   to back up a digital file than it is,   you know, to put a bunch of words on a and it should into steel and have it being waterproof and fireproof and whatnot. Right?  



[00:56:27] Unknown:

Yeah. That's a it's a really good point.   And, actually, I I saw the other day that   there is a proposal,   for   something very similar   to bit 47. It's it's called efficient reusable taproot addresses.   But, actually, I think it suffers   from that point you just mentioned that because there isn't a notification transaction,   it makes it a bit harder to,   sort of, yeah, restore from just a seed. I think I think something else has to be saved, at least that's my understanding of it.  

[00:57:02] Unknown:

Before we get to those, I just wanna jump in real quick. I think, Pavel, you have a hard stop in, like, 2 minutes. Correct?  

[00:57:10] Unknown:

No. I'm having so much time,   so much fun with you guys, and I'm drinking. So,  

[00:57:15] Unknown:

I delayed all my obligations just for UMASS, so I'll be here until the end. I love to hear it. I like to think the freaks are a big part of it too. Okay. So let's talk about this. The I, like, kind of looked into it.   It looks like a normal Taproot Bitcoin address,   and has similar properties. It so   it it doesn't have a notification transaction.   My my my biggest confusion there is how does someone know   like, if so if I post my payment code on Twitter   Yeah. You know it's a payment code, and you know it's not,   a fixed address to reuse. If I post a Taproot address, and even if on the receiver side I'm set up to take reusable payments out of it,   I'm gonna expect that the majority of people are just not gonna realize and just send to this fixed, reused address anyway. Right? That's my biggest concern, and that's not even a technical concern. It's just a   a user flow concern. Right?  



[00:58:17] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm I'm not too sure of the details of,   these reusable Taproot addresses, but,   yeah, that that makes sense to me. That that it's, that   yeah. How do you know   yeah.   I don't know quite how how the   like, if you don't have the notification transaction, how does your wallet know   that it's expecting   to receive a transaction?  

[00:58:44] Unknown:

Yeah. How do you know the receiver's   expecting a reusable address? How do you know the sender is even gonna realize that it's a reusable address   on both sides? It's kind of odd there.  

[00:58:54] Unknown:

Maybe   maybe it still uses, like, a similar   payment code.   I'm I'm just talking on top of my head here. I don't I don't actually know, but maybe it still has, like, a payment code sort of format. But instead of using   BC 1 addresses, it uses   Taproot addresses with some slightly different cryptography,   so that it doesn't need a notification transaction.  

[00:59:21] Unknown:

At least that proposal,   like, one of the cool parts that was highlighted about it was that it looks like a regular Taproot address. It was, like, a key aspect of that specific proposal.   Now, I mean, obviously, it's just a proposal. It's very early days. Maybe there are cool things that can happen with Taproot in that regard.   But I think in the meantime, there's obviously a critical need   for some kind of reusable payment code.   BIP 47 seems to fit the bill.   If the concern is that on chain fees are, you know, gonna be increasing because people are using BIP 47,   I would point them to the live view   of mempool.space   right now where one separate byte confirms right away. So I think, you know, we implement that now.  

And, you know, if fees go up   ever,   then we can at that point, we can,   you know, start to phase them out and try and be more efficient on chain. But right now, I mean,   they're just mining empty blocks, and you can just do one separate bite. Right? Yeah. If anything, you can go ahead and already set up that notification  

[01:00:22] Unknown:

transaction with a person you think you may be paying in the future. And then whenever you need to pay them, you know, maybe there's a big congestion. You you already sent that notification transaction   when it was once sat, so then you can just keep making payments to them afterwards.  

[01:00:35] Unknown:

Yeah. And, like, lightning, like, it it just seems like a double standard because, like, on lightning,   I gotta open and close channels all the fucking time.   Yeah. And, like, Lightning is one big batch transaction,   which is cool,   and it's like an automated way of doing that.   But, with BIP 47, like, I already have   there's already, like, a 100 people linked with my payment code. They've already linked. Now they don't have to link again unless they create a new wallet.  

[01:01:03] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[01:01:04] Unknown:

Pavel, do you have you looked into this reusable Taproot addresses at all?  

[01:01:08] Unknown:

No. I haven't, unfortunately,   but I've added it to my list of reading things of Bitcoin protocol.   So, yeah, I will I I'm reading as you guys speak. It seems   very interesting, but, yeah, I have to, you know, have some time to tinker about  

[01:01:27] Unknown:

potential downsides of it. The ever growing to do list.   Yeah.   So   so first of all, on the BIP 47 front,   it seems like this whole, you know, Canadian trucker stuff has really prioritized it for a lot of people.   I know BDK   is   considering   merging it, which is intended to be a project that is used as a back end for other   wallets,   for all assortment of wallets. And then BlueWallet,   which is available both iOS and Android, there's an outstanding bounty right now. The last I checked was 12,000,000 sats,   to integrate it into BlueWallet, which I think would be massive. Because right now, like, forget the notification transaction. The biggest issue with BIP 47 is someone has to have an Android phone,   a donator has to have an Android phone, and they have to specifically have a samurai wallet installed. Right? And, like, when you're talking about donations,   you wanna try and reduce the friction of the people who are donating as much as possible,   and that is obviously the biggest point of friction. So, hopefully, we see, you know, over   the next couple of months, you know, start to see while it's implemented,   besides samurai and ideally cross platform, you know, desktop and iPhone.  



[01:02:40] Unknown:

Yeah. One of the one of the things though on that is still,   you know, if if you have a bunch of donors and, you know, they're all let's say they are all using PayNex. Like, eventually,   you know, consolidation   may end up happening and you'll and specific donors will be linked,   to each other. You may not get all the donate donators,   but you still, like, probably would want to, you know, after you, you know, maybe crowdfund,   or, you know, wanna   start using your donations, like, still coinjoin afterwards, you know, after the fact just so you don't, don't, unintentionally   leak link. Like you said, you you you have 21.5,   or sorry, 2.5,   Bitcoin,   UTXOs   and from 2 different donors, and then you spend 1 Bitcoin. And then all of a sudden, you kind of blink those 2. You have linked them on your end. You have linked those 2 donate donators as, like, 2 individuals that have both donated at that point.  

You don't exactly know,   you know,   maybe, you know, you you can say that they don't exactly know that it was,  

[01:03:44] Unknown:

you know, for a specific cause, but, eventually, you know, there's Well, you know, at the very least, they paid the same person or something.   So let's maybe this is a good time to just whether it's paid NIMS or whether it's   BTCPay   or SatSale   or TaliCoin,   you you you're not reusing addresses.   You're receiving all these on chain funds.   How does someone who's crowdfunding,   who's controlling those funds that are received, how should they go about   thinking about   their privacy   and, their   their privacy,   going forward? Like, how do they manage those funds? How should they think about it?  

[01:04:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I think, Tony raised a really good point that you should you should probably,   do some coin join after you've received the donations.   So that that once you do a coin join where you there's a whole bunch of inputs and a whole bunch of identical looking outputs,   it breaks these really deterministic, really easy to follow links in the Bitcoin blockchain.   So that not it would not only protect your privacy as, the recipient of those donations because it makes it hard to follow,   what you're spending that donated money on,   but it can also protect your donors that,   it will be a lot   more it'd be a lot more difficult to figure out,   who donated and and, which address is used for what, because it would just look like a whole mess of,   inputs and outputs, and who knows what belongs to who.  



[01:05:17] Unknown:

I've I figured you'd have strong opinions on this considering your Twitter handle is at coin joiner.   So, I mean, let's talk about this from a practical point of view. First of all, there's these chain surveillance firms and freaks who have, you know,   listened to a lot of dispatch. I've heard me explain this a 1000000 times, but it's always good to explain it just in case someone's coming in here fresh just for this episode   to do crowdfunding.   We have these these mercenary firms, these chain surveillance firms,   that their only job is to track people's transactions, Collate known Bitcoin addresses track people's transactions.  

They work with corporations. They work with governments. They work with authoritarians.   They share that information around. They have different automated tools to do   it. And the the whole method to their madness   is probability analysis. So with Bitcoin,   I can send transactions to myself all day if I want to. So their job is basically determine   when I'm not sending a transaction to myself, I'm actually sending it to Tony or someone else. When does that change of ownership happen? And they they attach probability scores to that, and they have different heuristics   that enable,   that that affect those probabilities scores. So,   one that Tony was just talking about is   on in your Bitcoin wallet, it might say that you have a a total balance of 20,000,000 sats, but, really, it's made up of a bunch of UTXO's. UTXOs. You can think of them as, like, bills in your wallet. So you might actually have 4, $55,000,000   SAT UTXOs.  

And if you construct a transaction that's paying out 20,000,000 sats, all 5,000,000 of all 4 of those 5,000,000 sat UTXOs are going on the input side,   and there's something called the common input ownership heuristic, which is this idea that all the inputs are usually controlled by the same person because they're constructing a transaction. Now you can break that with a 2 person coin join.   You can break it kind of with a simulated 2 person coin join,   and and the reason is is because multiple people are providing inputs   instead of instead of just 1 person. And one of the cool aspects of that   is,   one of the cool aspects of that is the more people that do that,   even if you're not actually doing a 2 person coin join, you're you're breaking that common input on ownership heuristic. Another way is something called PayJoin, which actually BTC pay server supports. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't using it,   but, it's this idea that when you pay someone,   the receiver is contributing   a input.  

So on the input side, it's not just,   the sender's input. It's also one of the receiver's input, and it, like, breaks that probability analysis.   Now the the reason I bring this up is because   if you have a nonreused   address fundraiser   so with with the Tali coin fundraiser, it was obvious. Right? It was a fixed address. Everyone could see how much was being raised on chain. They could see who was donating to   it. If they were sending from KYC exchanges or if they were KYC'd a couple hops away, they could combine that. So, like, a chain surveillance firm could see, this donation came from Cash App. I'm gonna hit Cash App up and say, who made this withdrawal?   Cash App then sends, you know, their their their full name, their address, their phone number, their email address,   you know, a picture of of their face,   and then they can use that to then track more people. Now if you're not reusing addresses, it's not as easy for them, but one of the common techniques they'll do is they'll basically donate to the to the fund as well,   and then track   that transaction flow.  

So if if I wanted to track,   like, the Bitcoin Smiles fundraiser and and see, you know, how those flows are moving,   I would basically just keep sending my own Bitcoin as donations and then track each of those outputs   and see are they getting commingled with other outputs and then try and track from there. That would be the technique that would be done. Right?  

[01:09:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And so, ideally, after you've received that money,   it would best to   it'll be best to coinjoin it   after you received it,   and and in a way that doesn't   merge all your UTXOs   into as sort of one big input.  

[01:09:33] Unknown:

Yeah. You don't wanna do, like   if if your if your coin join is just merging all of them together and doing a coin join, that doesn't help either.   So then there's another aspect, coin selection.   So should we talk about coin selection? Nick, you wanna talk about coin selection a little bit? Yeah. Sure.  

[01:09:50] Unknown:

So so when you're constructing a Bitcoin transaction,   you can choose which UTXOs.   If using a good wallet, you can choose which inputs,   are gonna be used for that Bitcoin transaction.   So ideally,   maybe if if you're receiving donations,   and and you would hide the privacy of your donors and and yourself,   You would say you would you might select each,   donation   input   and and use each input individually,   like, one at a time,   in in a coin join transaction to break that link, without yeah. With instead of sort of merging them all into 1 and then and then coin joining,   sort of defeat the purpose a bit.  



[01:10:35] Unknown:

So not all wallets have, coin control.   I think it's kinda cool that BTC pay server actually has an integrated wallet.   Pavel, do you know, is that in does that integrated wallet have coin control in it? It does. Right?  

[01:10:52] Unknown:

Yeah. It does. Also,   we do label   certain   invoices. For example, if you have a crowdfunding, we'll label it crowdfunding for you,   and we try to auto label as much as we can so that we can make it easier for you to know where your, you know,   what you ex your tech service belong to, what store, or what app. So we try to do a little bit automation on on that end.   So, yeah, you you can with BDC pay server pretty easily, like, you know, label use labels in order to send funds from from the wallet. Also, that wallet, if you're a self hosting server, relies on your full node   and on top of that has a full,   hardware wallet support. So you can use your hardware wallets,   with your full load,   on your own server. So you don't have to   leak information to third party servers or whatever web, wallets that, third parties are hosting. For example, I know,   Trezor or whatever wallet we are talking about.  

So our wallet is, pretty good privacy wise, but I'm not sure how, many people are actually using it to do. It it is we recently, like, released an update and improved its UI as well. So I think it's we're we're getting there when it comes to usability of our vault.  

[01:12:15] Unknown:

I guess one of the problems with,   with with with, I guess, like, obfuscating   all the donors and and, you know, doing coin joining afterwards is that,   the reality is that, you know, you do lose some visibility   as as as a donation and crowdfunding source. So,   you know, on one hand, like, it's great privacy, like, no one should know what I'm doing with the funds, but there is one trade off in in the fact that, like, you know, if you are trying to be as visible as possible, just trying to be accountable, trying to, like, you know, if if I think we've we've seen it a little bit with this tally coin stuff is is, you know, there were people,   out there kind of threatening, like, hey. I don't think you're actually, like, gonna donate the funds. I'm I wanna hold you accountable. I wanna see, you know, the donations going off. So I guess,   there's sort of an aspect of   of of having, like, super visibility for for transparency   sake, and then also just wanting to protect yourselves,   from from a privacy perspective. I'm not sure if you guys have any thoughts on that. Yeah. That's a really good point. So, actually,  

[01:13:19] Unknown:

Telecoin,   in defense of them, they actually do support,   a unique address for each donation, and they also support,   Pay NIMs and other things.   But the people running this fundraiser   chose   they they elected not to use those, and they elected to use a single address in the name of transparency.   So, yeah, I I definitely think there's a there's a conversation to be had here as as to what,   trade off you're gonna make. Is is the transparency really worth,   how much privacy has been given up, for the recipients and and the donors.   Because personally, I I would I would think that there there's gotta be better ways to prove that you're gonna use the funds in a in a   appropriate   manner. I think there's there's probably some better way to do, like, a proof of reserves in some,   maybe more private way,   and and also prove that the donations are going out in sort of a,   using the fund putting the the funds to good use.  



[01:14:25] Unknown:

I mean, you're not really getting, like, that much of a transparency benefit from reusing address except for total amount raised.   Because at the end of the day,   unless you go and, you know, film every person you give the Bitcoin to, you could   which has its own privacy risks, you could just,   you know, send out those funds to a 1000000 different addresses,   and you control all those 1000000 different addresses anyway. Yeah. You go out and you say these 1000000 addresses are truckers and not actually. But the alternative, if you don't reuse an address and you use Coin Control and you use CoinJoin,   you can still if you want to docs all recipients   on video, you could still do that. Right? Like, you like, is   I wonder, like, is there, like like, on GoFundMe   on GoFundMe when someone raises money on GoFundMe, which   is is is by far, you know, getting way more volume than Bitcoin fundraising does.  

You're trusting GoFundMe of the total amount that has been raised.   Right? There's no transparency in that regard. You're sending bank transfers or credit card payments, and then you're you don't have any visibility into where it goes afterwards. Is there, like, really that much   is there are you really even getting that much of transparency benefit? Is it even demanded by the market? Like, is that even something that Yeah.  

[01:15:45] Unknown:

I don't think so. I I think, yeah, I think there's gonna be better ways to to sort of prove that you're a trustworthy,   recipient of these donations and that you're that you're spending them in in good ways.   I don't think,   reusing   an address and having having, like, a publicly visible   total donated is really   is really necessary for for things like this.   Yeah. As you say, if you still want to go out and film handing the money out,   the only   only discrepancy there would be that maybe   the the fundraiser received more money than you gave out, and and no one's able to prove that.   But I I think that   that's not really the biggest concern.  



[01:16:31] Unknown:

And, like, when, like, I'm donating to something,   I'm choosing to trust the organizer of the raise. Or if it's just an individual, I'm trusting the individual. I, like, I don't   I don't need to have insight into what happens to that money afterwards, but maybe I'm  

[01:16:47] Unknown:

Yeah. And I do wanna trust relationship already. Yeah. And I do wanna touch on that. Like, there is,   there is a a difference here between, like, being an individual and accepting crowd fund. Like, you know, say I'm an individual, and I can go out and set up my BTC pay server or sat sale and and go out there and, like, pitch myself as and, you know, advertise and say, hey. You know, I'm a trucker. You know, please donate to me. But then there is another there is a trade off here, like another side of the coin where,   we don't actually, like, know all the truckers addresses. So we actually have to go out there and and sort of be,   you know, a   a custodian for for donations.  

Like, you donate to this master.   You know, it could be multisig, you know, so you're so you're trusting,   multiple individuals,   instead of just having to trust a single one. But there is kind of a difference here   in in in setting up,   this for yourself. And then and then how do you go out and find all the truckers to donate to? So, like, there's a little bit of a problem here, and I think, PTC pay server. I was actually, like, you know, looking at your sites and everything. I actually like your your guys' approach.  

[01:17:53] Unknown:

If I'm an individual and I wanna just, quote, unquote, donate to BTC pay server, like, there is, you guys do list individual contributors and point to their own Yeah. BTC pay servers. If I if I recall correctly, they don't even have a master fund that you can donate to. You choose who you wanna donate to. And, I mean, this is a key point here. Right? It's because the whole point to me of Bitcoin is p to p commerce   and this idea of lowering friction. Right?   And so maybe to to me, when you're especially when you're talking about a situation   where you're dealing with a hostile state,   Bitcoin should be able to obviate the need for large centralized   crowd funds. If you have many small individual   raises,   that are going direct to those individuals and we already see this with the protests where where individuals at protests   are posting   social media posts about their experiences. They're posting videos.  

Now you can imagine a world with BIP 47   or   Bolt 12 or something like that on the lightning side or lightning addresses or something like that, where, like, a trucker can put a QR code on their truck. And if you see that if you see that QR code on the thing, you can pay to it. And the reason almost is, like   the reason we don't see that as much is because there is a level of friction to running a BTC pay server or sat sale. Right? Like, individual truckers can't figure that out, or maybe they   can, but it there's definitely a level of friction there as opposed to just downloading a mobile wallet,   getting your BIP 47 QR code, and, you know, painting it on your truck or posting it on social media or something. Right?  



[01:19:32] Unknown:

Yeah. That's very true. It's, it's a lot more accessible. I I'm not gonna pretend that   installing Satsail is the easiest thing in the world.   It's it's definitely not the easiest thing to set up sometimes, even though maybe for Bitcoiners, it's not too bad. But for people who have never touched Bitcoin before, they don't know what a node is. They don't know what a VPS is. They don't know any of these things are.   It's much much easier for them to download a mobile wallet that would support,   these, yeah, reusable,   payment codes and and other,   more private methods of receiving donations.  



[01:20:09] Unknown:

Pavel, what's your thoughts here?  

[01:20:12] Unknown:

Well, you know, I just think it is beautiful that we have many options, and that, different use cases can be fulfilled through all these options. And that,   at the end of the day, we still don't have a perfect solution. So   I'm just   excited   about the future development and what people will come up with and may perhaps make BDC base server obsolete one day, you know, making better things and improving protocols   and developing things that,   are easy for,   I guess, newbies to use. So I agree with you. It is much easier to just paint a QR code, on a truck or, you know, just print it out and put it in store then installing a payment server. But, yeah, payment server have their own use case.   It's just a different,   you know, we are just trying to help people out any way we can, but   there needs to be a much easier way to to, you know, accept, basically, donations. And, yeah, I'm just excited and hopeful   that we'll have a solution one day. Maybe not tomorrow, but who knows?  



[01:21:19] Unknown:

I know, BTC pay server   don't you guys also have that sort of,   uncle Jim sort of setup where I could   host my BTC pay server, and then I could make sort of like   sub servers. I'm not sure what you call them, but like sort of different donation accounts for, like, a whole bunch of my friends, for example. And and they would have their own individual,   donation portal,   that would be sort of specific for   those those funds for receiving for them.   Would you be able to speak a little bit about that? So I think that's a really cool idea that   maybe, for example,   instead of having 1 big crowdfunding platform, you could have sure. One person might host it, but   the individual,   donation   the the donations go to, like, a specific individual. So you could have, like, one,   donation gateway for each trucker, for example,   and it would go directly to them, and it would still be in a more, sort of privacy enhancing way by not reusing addresses.  

What are your thoughts?  

[01:22:25] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's awesome that you mentioned it. I didn't, even think about mentioning it because, you know, it involves a certain trust in whoever is hosting a server. But, yeah, BTC based server does not mean that you need to, like, host it. You can,   we call these people third party hosts. So,   we obviously don't envision a world where and everybody needs to run a server in order to accept Bitcoin payments,   but we   like to think about it as having, as many,   BTC based server factories around the world, community members running BTC based servers. For example, in El Salvador, we have community members running us BTC pay for, you know, their local community and the onboarding merchants on their own beat on on their BTC based server and later on educating merchants   about, you know, them them deploying their own servers. So for on chain transactions, this works well. People just need to input their own x pub key or public key, and it is easy. The the tricky part to,   which   we have problem with right now is lighting network and how do we, you know,   allow people to accept Bitcoin payments in a non custodial way. Because if you're sharing your BTC based server with your local community, you need to take custody   of of of their funds while the Lightning Network, and this is where we are struggling at the moment. There are some things   that we are, thinking of. For example, having a dedicated b two c pay server app, where one day you will be able to run a node on your phone, lightning node, and then connect to that server.  

So,   you know, we there are solutions, but we are just, you know, exploring all the options. But, yeah, simply said, people can open up their BTC   server to anybody or to their friends and invite them or, you know,   so that anybody can basically accept payments, and you are just hosting a server. So, yeah, it's uncle Jim type of thing as you mentioned. So I'm really glad that you brought it up because I completely forgot   about it.  

[01:24:30] Unknown:

Maybe with lightning,   something I was thinking about. So   maybe,   like, the main so the person who's running the the shared BTC pay server,   maybe the lightning payments go to them and they hold   automatically   withdraw after, say, like, I don't know, 10,000 sets or something that it makes   an on chain transaction   going to,   going to the   to the   the actual,   the specific individuals. So you you make a lightning payment.   You're intending it to go to,   someone who's using that shared BTC pay server.   The the lightning payment actually goes to the the sort of the main the main, person who's running the payment server, it goes to their lightning node, but then say maybe after,   some amount of sets have have built up in that in that,   on their side, then they could, like, automatically withdraw it maybe,   to to the individual  

[01:25:34] Unknown:

using the XPOD. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is already possible. We have a, like, a built in solution called lnbank, which is basically   a layer 3 running on top of l 2,   which allows people to have, like, internal BDC pay lightning bullets, but it all goes to one node, and then it is distributed   to them in a way.   Yeah. There there are, like, ways to, you know, hack around it, but for having it, like, to truly known custodial,   it is a bit tricky. And,   yeah, we are just exploring solutions   because we don't want to put, a target on people running instances. There are instances of BTC pay server that have 10,000 users. So you have one guy hosting it for 10,000 merchants around the world, and he's doing it for on chain completely free of charge. People import their own, public keys.   They accept they receive payments. He's not a custodian. He does not really, you know,   have custody of their funds. He cannot steal their funds. But with Lightning,   yeah, it's a hot wallet. It's a little bit of tricky. And,   you know, in some wicked world, per perhaps it can even have some, you know, legal implications for whoever he is hosting because he can be considered if, you know, government is stupid enough to try   to do it. He can be considered,   you know,   basically a money transmitter. So,  

[01:26:58] Unknown:

yeah. Yeah. The the custodian.   Yeah. At that point, they're they're receiving the funds, and they've got some responsibility.  

[01:27:05] Unknown:

Yeah. But, ideally, if we could make it that, lightning nodes are run on mobile phones and that they are online   with the ability to accept payments at any time, then, ideally, you can onboard people to your instance. They just install b t c pay server remote mobile application that allows you to connect to a server,   and then everybody are happy. Nobody's custodian euro funds. You're running node, lightning node on your phone.   And yeah. But yeah. That's,   hopefully, we will get there one day. We are, thinking about it. It's one of our goals this year to create a dedicated app so that anybody can install it, then choose a server,   or, you know, host their their own and then accept payments. But, yeah, it's it's tricky. It's not an easy things to thing to solve, but we are we are very committed of it. It's one of our top priorities this, I guess, year and next as well. Yeah. I could definitely see something very,  

[01:27:58] Unknown:

Moonwalet like, m u u n, where, you know, you're basically an LSP and and and all the invoices that come in get turned into, like, on chain transactions in the end. You know, you do kinda pay a little bit more on the fees. You know, you just take that out of the receiving user. But,   I can definitely see something like that where, like, the BTC pay, uncle gyms can can kinda still accept lightning without being, like, a custodian.   There's arguments of, like, whether or not there's, like, you know, at any point, they can run off with the funds, but, you know, at that point,   you know, it's like donations or payments or something. You know, it's just temporarily trusted and,   Uncle Jim. So, ideally, you know, maybe it's not like tens of thousands of users using   using 1, but I would love to have seen, like, a situation where it's not just,   you know, like, 3 or 4 people taking charge of   of a such a massive, like, you know, donation   crowdfunding effort, and it's more like,   you know, like, 20 to 100 different uncle gyms.  

But at the same time, like, we almost go back to it. Like, you never really know how big   something's gonna be or how, you know, how mad the government's gonna be at you afterwards,   when we're doing when we're talking about Bitcoin. Like, you know, once an address is out there, it's out there. And then everyone in the world can decide that they wanna donate it.   So it's it's kind of like things that we kinda have to think about before,   you know, goes back to, like, the transparency thing too. Like, sure. We wanna be super transparent,   and then they just use one address.  

You know, the things that we have to sort of think about before,   we get involved in in, like, crowdfunding,   especially if we're doing it on behalf of other people. And,   yeah, I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Just just the idea that I would love to see more, like, uncle Jim's involved in in crowdfunding efforts and, you know, maybe even, like, you know, rotating out uncle Jim's when when the time is right where it's just not, like, one single point of failure or, you know, 33 or 5 single point of failure or things like that.  

[01:29:59] Unknown:

Yeah. I I completely agree. Reducing, you know, the centralization   in a way and having as many options out there   and, you know, decentralizing, making it harder for people to attack a single point, it is.   I guess, that's that's what matters. If you we I don't envision a world where everybody needs to run a node, but, yeah,   if we can make it easier so that, you know,   we have, like, servers all around the the world, it it will be harder for government or whoever is trying to attack.   Yeah.   I guess that that that that's one of the things I'm also excited   excited about when it comes to B2C based server. Just, you know, making it hard for people to,   have a centralization of power   against us. So just having as much options and as much as alternatives. Because at this point, you have, like, maybe I I haven't counted it, but you maybe have, like, 20 or 30 or 50,   in a way,   small BTC based server providers and people, you know, just backing BTC based server locally,   translating it to their own language, and, you know, making their own payment customized payment processor for their local communities.  

That's that that's our goal. We are just here to make software, and it's up to people how they will use it and distribute it and, you know, make it hard, for for government or or the attacker to, you know,   chase them or stop them. And it's also about circular economy, I want to say. With Bitcoin Smiles, for example, for us, it is very easy.   We don't have, like, concerns,   like,   Canadian trackers have, but it is very easy for us when we don't have to, you know, convert Bitcoin. Because I've been working with nonprofits for now 4 years with BDC based. Right? I constantly try to assist them, and there are so many things. I mean, we we are talking here about all of these technical things like coin join, pain join. But when it comes to these nonprofits,   trust me, for them, they barely know how to use the wallet. It's so confusing for for them.  

They then try to, you know, sell it, and then they get back to us. So we should have sold the Bitcoin. We should have kept it and things like that. So, like, circular economy can also make, things way easier and much more resilient in in my opinion as well, reducing the essentials.  

[01:32:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Let's unpack that because, I mean, to the listener, they might not realize Bitcoin Smiles is a El Salvador, is is based in El Salvador. It's a fundraiser to,   have dental care,   for local Salvadorans.   El Salvador has this, you know, this legal tender law. If you don't if you're not aware that Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador,   you're probably living under a rock. But, that means that   all the all that money that is raised, all that Bitcoin that is raised can directly be spent on whatever items they need.   Right? But in,   in the in the case of,   the Canadian protesters,   there isn't   necessarily that ability to spend the Bitcoin directly.  

And and as a result, what you usually see people recommend is, okay, then go cash it out at a regulated service provider,   a regulated brokerage.   That comes with KYC. That comes with the potential of getting blacklisted at one of those exchanges.   So, Pavel, like, in your experience when you're when you're when you're doing these raises   for places that are not El Salvador, like in any of the other countries besides El Salvador.   From, like, a practical point of view, like, how do people go about that? Like, how is what techniques they use? What is what are the strategies that people think about in terms of turning that fundraise Bitcoin into,   actual real world things they need?  



[01:33:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. So one just one one thing about, Bitcoin Smiles.   The reason why it was   so easy for me to, you know, work on it is because   we just did,   did entire setup on top of Bitcoin. So we did not Bitcoin Smiles is basically just a community project. It is not a proper nonprofit. We didn't we don't have any,   paperwork setup. We didn't have to do any of that in order to to raise funds and change people life. It it basically was the 2 of us having a chat like we are now. And I asked him, like, okay. What can I do to help you? And then he told me this story about, you know, people having dentures and not having access to medical care. And I was like, okay.   Let's create a crowdfunding. And he was like, well, you know, I'm not really a num you don't have to be. Like, you can just do things on top of Bitcoin, and you don't have to care about all of these things. Because if you don't convert it,   if you, you know, just spend it directly on patients and medication and, you know, all sorts of things. Like, you   you don't have to go through all of these complexities. And the reason why we were able to move this fast with Bitcoin Smiles is we removed all of these government complexities that,   people usually have problems. Because,   with BTC based survey, the foundation a foundation that funds, of of couple of, you know, developers to build BTC based server, It's a proper nonprofit, and it was pain in the ass to to form it to I think it took us a year and a half to to do it properly. Like, that is insane. With with Bitcoin Smiles, it was just 2 of us. We we raised 2 Bitcoin, and we were immediately, like, able to change people lives. So that's, one thing I want to point out that you don't, with Bitcoin, you can do things that, you know, depends on the way you use it. But, yeah, I I you get the point what what I'm trying to say. I'm just, you know, too excited.  

Yeah. So  

[01:35:32] Unknown:

I guess, so so, yeah. It works in El Salvador when people are receiving   Bitcoin directly and and it's legal tender there. It's very easy for them to go and spend it.   But for the Canadian truckers who have now received this Bitcoin,   and and they can't even go and cash it out because these these UTXO's are all in this huge blacklisted,   this huge list of of,   transactions that UTXOs that these or the exchanges aren't allowed to process.   So how how do the truckers actually go and spend that Bitcoin that they've now received? I think it's a bit of an issue.   And I saw some people suggesting that   that,   bitcoin is in Canada should should go and   go on and and buy bitcoin. Might have been me. Yeah.  

It's a really good opportunity to go and and and get some, like, no k y c Bitcoin perhaps,  

[01:36:26] Unknown:

directly from them. It it would be Well, my argument was that forget the Canadian protest. Just protest in general. Like, if you have a protest that's locally by you,   it just might be a good opportunity to get no KYC stats because,   it's just something that I do. I like Bitcoin.   If I if I know I'm gonna hang out with Bitcoiners, like, I always make sure to have some cash on me so they could buy their drinks for them, and then they they pay me in Bitcoin. Like, I know at at some point at 2 in the morning, they're just gonna only have sats,   and I don't see why it would be a especially if Bitcoin fundraising for protest becomes more common,   because, I mean, obviously, it's highlighted now for the Canadian protest. But my work with with with Alex Gladstein at HRF,   it it became really obvious. Like, that's that's the main use case for   dissidents and activists around the world. Like, if you live in an authoritarian country   and you are a political you're politically persecuted,   against the government,   you are gonna be completely financially blockaded.  

A 100% blockaded.   If you tell them they can just receive funds from anywhere in the world,   their eyes light up. It's obvious. It's an obvious use case to them. Now once you start going down the rabbit hole of you gotta use BTC pay server and you gotta,   you know, you gotta you gotta run you gotta run a server, and then they're like, how do how do I make sure the government doesn't know I'm running server, and then you gotta maintain coin control and all that stuff?   It gets a little bit   more dicey for them. But even if you see someone like Navalny of Russia,   they're still using a fixed used address a fixed reused address because they're like, it is so powerful for us to just be able to receive the funds in the first place.  

I was talking to one of his head lawyers at HRF's most recent, Oslo Freedom Forum, and I was trying to convince her to switch. And she's like, I honestly, like, I don't care.   I Putin can know how much we're raising. He can't take it away from us. Now I strongly disagree with that premise, not only for them, but for their people that are donating to them.   But   that then the pain point immediately becomes,   how do you actually utilize the funds?   And in El Salvador, that's obvious.   And I'm curious, Pavel. And and by the way, your the the thing you mentioned about the nonprofit makes a lot   it hits really hard for me because, you know, I'm helping I'm a cofounder of OpenSats for open source funding,   and it took us fucking forever to get our nonprofit status. Like and there's so much paperwork. It's just a pain in the ass.  

But yeah. So so how what do you advise them to do, dude? I mean, gift cards, I guess, is an option. It's not an ideal option.   Maybe, like, linking up with other Bitcoiners that are maybe ideologically motivated   that, you know, rather than just selling it to random bit corners at a protest, it's like, I'm ideologically motivated.   Reach out to them via, like, signal or some kind of encrypted channel   or even better at, you know, in person in a dark pub or something,   and be like, you know, will you buy   a couple $1,000 worth of Bitcoin so that I can go out and buy fuel or whatever, food or whatever people need? Like, how do you how do you frame it? How do you think about it?  

[01:39:43] Unknown:

Yeah. So HRF recently   has really been helpful in, you know,   onboarding all of these nonprofits.   Usually, they would go to us and then we would have to onboard them, but Alex and the team   have recently really done a great job in creating resources and also offering them help to set it up. So, basically, they offloaded all these,   complexities on our end so that we can develop software, and they basically educate people about,   how to use funds and, how to convert them. So   I think,   Alex may have, a better answer for that one. But, usually, my experience so far, I'll I worked with, I think,   15 at this point. What they usually do is they just,   hold a little Bitcoin for a specific period of time. And then once a month or once in a few weeks, then they go to an exchange and convert it. And then you have those that,   basically auto convert it or auto sell right away. We do have some things,   on BTC based around set up so that you can auto sell basically right away  

[01:40:46] Unknown:

To a KYC exchange. Right? Like, with an API. Yes. That's, yeah, that's very  

[01:40:52] Unknown:

it I guess it all depends on the, you know,   your concern   and how privacy,   how how much you care about the the privacy. So and also about   how capable you are technically in order to do it because, obviously, everybody will love to, you know, do it in a private way so they don't have to, you know, think about it. But, yeah, it's not really, like, we really have to handhold   most of these nonprofits. And it is sad truth that we mostly need to, you know, communicate bet back and forth with them, explain them, you know, go to this. You can buy gift cards if you're you know, just call it or, you know, find the local people,   to sell it to or, you know, things like that.  

I think, Alex, really, they have some setup, but I cannot remember which exchange and how do they actually,   advise people to maybe it is best. I'm not sure. But, yeah, I think He really  

[01:41:44] Unknown:

likes Paxful   which does have KYC, but is peer to peer.   But, obviously, Bisc could be a good option. Huddl Huddl could be a decent option.   With Huddl Huddl, it's,   yeah. With Huddl Huddl, it's centralized, but non custodial. With BISK, it's it's more censorship resistant because it's actually,   you know, like, run the software on your own computer and connect to people peer to peer.  

[01:42:10] Unknown:

And you can even do the face to face option as well. So you Yeah. If you are doing, like, you know, protest level stuff, you can say, oh, let's meet where the protest is. Depending on your jurisdiction, ATMs could be a possibility.  

[01:42:22] Unknown:

Gift cards like Bitrefill could be an option.   There are some options.  

[01:42:30] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think it's,   it's a really big motivation   for really fostering that that circular economy of Bitcoin because   if, yeah, if if people do wanna cash out,   and they they can't go to a a k y c exchange,   then, yeah, I think we we really have to make sure that there are people,   willing to   to to buy the Bitcoin off them and transact in in Bitcoin.   So so, yeah, people actually need to use Bitcoin, not not just a sort of buy and hold sort of number go up. I think it's really important that actually,  

[01:43:06] Unknown:

these circular economies are fostered in this peer to peer way. And I feel like, I mean, this is a good a good point for people to realize.   Even in a world where the majority of donations are coming in through BIP 47 rather than something like, SatSale or BTCPay server,   Satsale and BTC pay   actually   could benefit   people who do these types of raises   indirectly because   they make it easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin without a trusted third party. And why is that important?   That's important because if you're accepting through BitPay or OpenNode, they can also get the blacklists.   But if we have   merchants around the world that are onboarded with BTC pay server or Satsale,   they can make their own determination of whether or not they're gonna be doing chain surveillance, whether or not they're gonna be complying with,   burdensome government relation or or regulation or authoritarian   policies.  

And all of a sudden, those all become off ramps   for real goods and services. Right?   So   when you guys think about, like, merchant adoption, like, how like, is there anything like, how how can an average Bitcoiner   besides,   you know, if they actually run a business that, you know, sells goods and services and starts accepting Bitcoin in a sovereign way through something like BTCPay or SatSale?   Like, how can Bitcoiners   encourage, you know, this kind   of circular economy? Because I think the circular economy of Bitcoin will happen   eventually.  

The question is, how do we accelerate it? Right?  

[01:44:51] Unknown:

Yeah. I I really like your idea of,   paying back friends in Bitcoin. So if they they buy you a drink or they buy you dinner, you can pay them back in sets or or vice versa.   I think that's a really, really good way to start just   getting people used to it, getting people on board. They get a a mobile wallet.   It's it's quite easy to do. You can you can teach them, like, show them show them the ropes.   I think that's a really good way to get started.   For for actual merchants who   are wanting to receive   for getting merchants to onboard with Bitcoin, I think it's a bit trickier.   Getting getting them set up in a way that works for their business   while keeping it sort of not too technical,   is a little bit tricky.  

So so with that sale, something one of the the major motivators for me to build an Umbrel app,   was that it's sort of like a plug and play thing now that you could buy an umbrella or get one of the Raspberry Pi and install umbrella on it,   download Satsail from the app store,   and then you've essentially got a a point of sale ready to use in your in your biz like, in person point of sale,   ready ready to go for your business.  

[01:46:08] Unknown:

Because then you don't have the tour issue if it's on the local network. Right? Exactly. Exactly. That's alright.  

[01:46:16] Unknown:

Yeah. For me   for me, it's all about   local communities and, you know, having all of these people educating   merchants and us creating software resources,   documentation on how people can   basically take the initiative,   and change their local communities. Like, it started   very small in El Salvador and look at look at it now. I think that's a perfect   example of how, you know, impactful these small communities can be, and,   we should encourage, you know,   circular economy and people adopting Bitcoin on a local level. And I think that's that's the way to fight this. Because if we continue to,   do it in a way that we have all of these centralized services and that Bitcoin equals fiat, like,   we will get all these pain points and all these, problems. But once you start thinking about Bitcoin the way it's supposed to work without all these centralized parties,   lots of these complexities   actually,   don't exist anymore.  



[01:47:21] Unknown:

One thing I would, just thinking about now, talking about all the different topics like dispersing the funds and local economy and and tying the merchants   into this. You could even set up something where,   you you know, at at protests, I would imagine, you know, there's still a lot of people out there, like, you know, buying water for everyone and distributing that to the the protesters,   water, food, you know, utilities, things like that that they need on the ground floor. You could even see just a pop up of, like, various, like, different, you know, stores as individuals and, you know, you say, okay. You know, you can you can tie in something like BTC pay server or or set sail to merchant services. So it's like I'm actually, you know, I'm going to list a water bottle for sale or like 24 water bottles or like food and anyone that donates to that, you actually, as an individual or, you know, maybe a team of small individuals, you go out and you actually buy the utilities that someone had just donated. So you can list all these these different, you know, protester friendly,  

[01:48:16] Unknown:

stores that are all, you know, BTC pay servers or sat sales. And then You could even, like, go into, like, the local stores, like, in Ottawa for since we keep using as an example. I mean, Ottawa, there's all these local stores there that are obviously selling a bunch of things to protesters.   You could go there and try and onboard them to Bitcoin, be like, these protesters have Bitcoin.   I can get you set up, you know,   maybe   even charge them a little bit of money to to do it so it's not just completely,   charity,  

[01:48:48] Unknown:

and then get them set up and then be like, big corners can go there to spend their their money. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So if you don't get if you don't have a merchant set are that you can set up, even just like the approach of of, you know, being that middleman   to, like, you know, buy basic necessities like food and water.  

[01:49:08] Unknown:

I like that idea. And, I mean, another thing that's just very simple is, like, engage your local merchants. Right?   Regardless of protests, engage your local merchants. Be like, are you accepting Bitcoin yet?   You know, I might be a Bitcoiner, but I love cash for the privacy reasons.   And,   whenever I see a place that is credit card only, even if I see the sign, I always say to them, I always pull out my cash and make it as friction full as possible so that they see that I want to pay with cash. Right? And I think,   you can do that in a in a friendly but an insistent way then maybe you should start accepting Bitcoin. And here's the ways you can start accepting Bitcoin. Here's some guides. You know, I can help get you set up,   and you get to save on credit card fees. It's a very obvious selling point. You have no chargeback risk.  



[01:49:56] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's why I like something, you know, what what what Michael's doing with Oshie, down in Austin and and, you know, traveling around the United States   literally trying to do that and onboard business and try to create, like, an evangelist   sort of network where, it's not just him doing it, but other people as well trying to onboard onboard merchants and get sats back even as a result. So,   yeah, even as something simple as saying, you know, walking into a store and saying, you know, immediately saying, do you accept Bitcoin? Can can go a long way. And eventually, if enough people are doing that, you know, maybe maybe it's something to look into.  

[01:50:31] Unknown:

Yeah. I I 100% agree.   So actually, someone did a study on,   what drives Bitcoin adoption by retailers. And it's a few years old, so it's pretty out of date. Like, I think it was 2016 data or something.   But the top two reasons for crypto acceptance or Bitcoin acceptance was,   that the cuss 1, that the customers ask for it, and 2, that,   them accepting Bitcoin will bring in extra customers. And I think,   both of those are quite easy to convey if you if you if you ask, do you accept Bitcoin? Or if you make it if you make it known that there are a whole bunch of Bitcoiners wanting to spend their Bitcoin,   then I think that's a really big motivation for the merchant.  



[01:51:16] Unknown:

I mean, you can piggyback it off of,   this, like, growing, blossoming   global meetup community   that is happening. Right? Like, there's meetups all around the world, Bitcoin meetups.   You have a   a a condensed amount of individuals that are ideologically motivated.   And I would say to meet up organizers that, like, one thing that you can do that is very actionable   is encourage local businesses to accept Bitcoin. And then once they do start accepting Bitcoin and you help them accept Bitcoin and and I'm it needs to be clear here in a sovereign way because, like, there was a movement   in 2013 where everyone was just trying to get them on to bid pay. It was a centralized service. They were auto selling to fiat.  

You get them on in a sovereign way, and then you give them basically what amounts to free advertising at your meetup.   You don't even have to you know, I I've seen with,   like, OC Bitcorners,   in California,   which, by the way, if you're a bit cornered in California, I don't know how you circle that square, but that's besides the point.   There's some great Bitcoiners over there. They actually host their meetups at the different, like, restaurants and bars that   decide to accept Bitcoin. But you don't even have to do that. You can just be like, you know, this great establishment   that is at this location started accepting Bitcoin, and you just mentioned it at your meetup. It's extremely powerful.  

A 100%.  

[01:52:40] Unknown:

Yeah. In, in the Australian Bitcoin meetups,   so the one in Melbourne, we we go to a place that accepts Bitcoin at a bar.   And, actually, we've been to other places before, and you often find if you offer to pay the bartender in Bitcoin, and and you show them to download a a mobile wallet, and you give them a pretty decent tip,   which by the way tips,   never happen in Australia. It's not a not a common thing. It's,   they love it. They, I've seen, some bartenders bouncing off the walls. They've got, like, $300 in Bitcoin by the end of the night.  

[01:53:15] Unknown:

Bartenders are the easiest to onboard, especially, like, 2 hours into being at the bar.  

[01:53:22] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a really good start. We can run protests off of   of beer and beer. Yeah.  

[01:53:30] Unknown:

But yeah. No. I do definitely agree. I've onboarded a a bunch of bartenders myself.   So, I mean, we're an hour and 50 minutes in. We're probably gonna wrap it up kinda soon.   But we we,   usually, I like to, like, leave, you know, the more controversial nuanced topics   towards the end because usually only the rider dies get to this point.   I'm curious on your guys' opinion. So, I mean, we go through all of these different trade offs,   and, you know, we're talking about running,   you know, running an always on service on a on a virtual private server that is, you know, hosted in the cloud that usually requires KYC.   That's one of the reasons why I really like Voltage is because they don't require KYC. You just pay with Bitcoin. But I I do think, eventually, they might have to start requiring KYC.  

You know, Luna Node is a recommended one because their KYC is light, but they still require a phone number.   I do like I will always shill silent.link   where you can get a burner phone number,   and pay with Bitcoin and just download it as an eSIM,   or, alternatively, you know, you go and pay cash to get one.   So with all these different trade offs, and we're talking about, like, you know, you need to do you should do coin control afterwards, and and you should do coin join. And we're talking about in a   situation where you have, like, a state level actor. You have, you know, the Canadian government,   actually going out there and doing surveillance and doing chain   surveillance   and blacklisting addresses,   I'm gonna say a very controversial thing right now. Do you think   I was on your guys' opinion. Like, to to me, in that kind of situation,   it seems   way better in terms of a   trade off balance   to   accept Monero   as your donation and then swap into Bitcoin. Like, if you're gonna keep savings, you swap into Bitcoin.  

But for the actual   donation collection and then spending of it,   you accept Monero. Am I   off base here, or is that something that people should be considering in, like, a state level type of situation?  

[01:55:43] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's definitely preferable to using a single reused address.   And, yeah, depending on how much privacy you need, it might be the best,   option.   Yeah.   I I I don't I don't have any big problems in there. I think it's pretty cool. The cryptography is pretty awesome.   Pretty cool community too. Good values. So, yeah, no issues there for me.  

[01:56:13] Unknown:

I'm   still I'm still in shock. How dare you, Odell people.  

[01:56:21] Unknown:

Tony's giving me a look. What are your thoughts, Tony?  

[01:56:23] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,  

[01:56:25] Unknown:

I don't know. If if you can do something that's just as simple as posting an address and receiving privacy. But, I mean, there there are and I'm talking about a world where BIP 47 has been adopted by wallets yet. Right? This is, like, one of the reasons why I want BIP 47 to be adopted. But even in a world where BIP 47 is adopted, you're still doing coin control afterwards.  

[01:56:44] Unknown:

Right. And and,   I mean, I I still think about the UX issues, and and, you know, we talk about all the complexities of even just using Bitcoin itself, like, today, less this whole 2 hours, the complexities of receiving Bitcoin. And now we're now we're throwing like, sure. Like, from a privacy perspective, you know, there's a lot of great properties there, but now we're throwing the UX issue. Like, okay. Let's explain, you know, Monero. Let's explain how to do swaps. Let's explain how to do trustless swaps. Let's explain. Well, you might have to do trustless swaps in that situation. You post, like, a Monero address, and then you just go to sideship.ai,   and you just swap it into Bitcoin. True. Okay. But still there there are, you know, there's still a little bit of trade off of like explaining that to people as well in addition to all the other,   you know, Bitcoin   caveats that that we throw out there. There's,   and there could be timing analysis, there can be other things, you know, associated with these swaps. So like that's that's my only thing is from, like, a a UX  

[01:57:38] Unknown:

perspective, I guess. I think, by the way, to people watching the video, I'm pretty sure mem pulled that spaces down. I tried to   Rod, you wanna check to see if it's down?   It looks like it's down on my side.   It's up on your   side? Weird.   Well, there's my controversial thought for the day.   Yeah. I I feel like it's I it's definitely a conversation that should be had in this particular situation. I mean, if you if you talk about, like, these actual specific,   this this most recent fundraise,   if they had done that,   they'd be in a way better situation right now. And they could still hold Bitcoin at the end of the day.  



[01:58:18] Unknown:

Would they though? Because they they are still, like, out there,   saying, you know, we are the like, 3 to, you know, 5 individuals, like, you know, that are crowdfunding   for, you know, the truckers themselves. So, like, they will still be   the,   custodians in a way. Like sure it'll help like the government can't come in and say, okay, we're gonna blacklist these addresses and and everything like that. It helps on that side, but they're still like, you know, they're still single points of failure here that they can they can target. If they know who those, you know, 3 to 5 individuals are,  

[01:58:51] Unknown:

they'll still come attack you regardless. Maybe they don't know But the point is you wouldn't need to have 3 to 5 individuals doing it. Right? Like, individual truckers could post it, and then they could swap into Bitcoin. Right. But they don't download a mobile wallet. They could post it. You wouldn't know how many funds went to the address. You wouldn't know where they sent it afterwards. But we don't even we don't even see them doing the very basic thing today of just reusing an address. So, like, I don't know if we can't even get people to reuse a Bitcoin address.  

[01:59:16] Unknown:

Yeah. Even if we say it's, like, not the most, you know, private way, well, then then how are we gonna, like, get them to reuse something that they've, like, never in their life have heard of before?  

[01:59:26] Unknown:

Like, at least most people have heard Bitcoin, I think, at this point now. Right. That is the big the biggest the biggest trade off is that I think you you lose a donation pool. Right? Like, you have less   you have less people willing to donate to you because they they don't they don't have Monero to donate. Right? They have Bitcoin that they wanna donate.  

[01:59:46] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:59:48] Unknown:

Yeah. And and it could be hard to convince them to, swap it back into Bitcoin once they've received the Monero. It might be Oh, someone with more converse controversial hate than me. It'll it'll just be like another step. You don't have to go to side shift dotai or and then there might be some significant   fee there as well.   Yeah. I think I think, we should definitely   try and build the software that makes this possible to to raise money using Bitcoin.   But, yeah, maybe in some circumstances,   if there's no other option, then Monero might be your your best choice if if, you've got a pretty pretty strong adversary who's   watching very closely.  



[02:00:31] Unknown:

Okay. Well, I'm glad that I at least brought it up. I think it's, you know, something that we should be willing to talk about without canceling people,   and we'll see what happens.   You know Pavel's not gonna be canceled because he just does not wanna talk about anything, I guess. When, when Monero fork for BTC pay server?   Well, I mean, Monero is, like, completely different than Bitcoin from a code base, so that's pretty difficult.   But, anyways  

[02:00:56] Unknown:

Well,   there is a community docker,   plugin which allows you to accept Monero on BTC based servers. So   the I guess we we continue with controversy.   So cancel BTC based server. Cancel, they'll cancel Palonext.  

[02:01:11] Unknown:

And make sure you cancel, Tony, while you're at it.   Guys so, I mean, I think this was a great conversation. I think it'll be very helpful for people, especially in adversarial environments who are trying to   raise money and getting, you know, financially blockaded.   I usually like to end it with final thoughts.   So   but with you guys specifically, I mean, you both,   are heavily involved with these open source projects. Make sure you let people know how they can contribute, whether that's through donations   or actually, you know, contributing to open source work, with your projects. So we'll start. Final thoughts.   Pavel, final thoughts.  



[02:01:49] Unknown:

Sure. Final thoughts if you wish to contribute to an open source project, btcpayserver.org.   We currently need a lot of people,   not only developers. We need help with our documentation,   content, and things like that. So if you have any skill, feel free to hit me up on Twitter at pavlonex, and I will happily onboard you. Also, bitcoin dot design for those interested in design   and UX.  

[02:02:15] Unknown:

We also need, quite a lot of contributors there. So yeah. Thanks, Pavel. And I I would say that,   I I think it's important to realize that, you know, BTCPay is a massive project, and it's not just programmers that you're looking for. Right? It's people doing documentation, design, all these sorts of things.  

[02:02:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.  

[02:02:35] Unknown:

Thank you, Pavel. I I really appreciate your time, and thank you for,   you know, going longer than you expected to go. It is it is truly appreciated.   Nick, final thoughts.  

[02:02:46] Unknown:

Yeah. So you can find satsale,   or satsale.org,   and there's a link to the GitHub.   I've got there's not many contributors   just yet. It's,   still pretty small project, but I like to think it's a very small code base and very accessible,   and especially because it's written in Python, so it's quite accessible to junior developers especially.   And so I'm actually currently getting some Satsale t shirts printed, and I'll be sending those out to all,   substantial contributors,   past and present. And   if you if you wanna support that sale, you can donate on the website as well, and I'll be using that money to, to to get some shirts printed.   Yeah.  

And actually, could I plug, one other thing I've been working on lately? Go, go, go away.   Thank you. Thank you.   So   gun dot fun.   Gun is a command line Bitcoin wallet,   and it supports peer to peer betting using bit Bitcoin.   It it's written in Rust. It uses BDK.   It's really easy to set up with a cold card wallet. So I've been working on that with,   Lloyd LL Fawn on GitHub.   And, yeah, I think Lloyd's gonna be making some,   some bets tonight or tomorrow.   So we've got a we've got a lot of bets coming in to try and onboard new users, and I think some of them will have some pretty good odds. So keep an eye out for that.  

[02:04:14] Unknown:

Awesome. I was not aware of that project. I I look forward to diving into it.   Thank you, Nick. I really do appreciate all the work you do, and I appreciate you coming on the show and and discussing this all with the freaks.   Tell me, ton of thoughts.  

[02:04:28] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Awesome discussion, guys. Really appreciate,   us having this.   You know, not only, you know, if you're out there listening, like, you know, contributing to these projects,   you know, from a technical standpoint or, like, documentation, whatever it is, but also, you know, donation donating is, like, such an important topic too. Like, you're really changing lives out there. So, yeah, we all wanna hold our Bitcoin and never spend it. Right? But there's, like, people out there that need this. And and, you know, even if we're, like, you know, doting into causes and, you know, they may not exactly know how to distribute the funds very properly or, like, or what to do afterwards, like, you know, go out there and and and do it. Don't be don't be too stingy out there. Like, you you know, we do try you know, we are trying to change the world out there. So, you know, be the change you seek. But  

[02:05:11] Unknown:

The support goes a really long way. Any donation really, really matters a lot. It allows us to spend more of our time on these things that we really think are important.   And, yeah, download download Satel. Get your hands dirty. Give it a try. Try connecting to your Bitcoin node. I think you'll you'll find it pretty fun.  

[02:05:30] Unknown:

Awesome.   Thank you, guys. And I'll just echo what what Tony said.   Your your work is really appreciated,   not just on the facilitating donations front because I think that is a major use case that Bitcoin,   can fix,   and that will fix, but we, you know, we need to make it easier.   And you guys have made it significantly easier than it was, you know, just 2, 3 years ago, but I think we can go above and beyond that.   And I do appreciate all the work you do there, but also in onboarding merchants and being able to onboard them in a sovereign way without centralized third parties   and without address reuse,   so that   privacy best practices are taken into account is absolutely massive. It feels like we actually have a foundation where we start trying to build a circular economy rather than building on quicksand using something like BitPay or OpenNode.  

With all that said, Breaks, next week,   dispatch will not be happening.   I need a little bit of a vacation.   We are coming back,   March 8th.   I have a great crew. I have Brother Rabbit, Goro Moneta Moneta   from   Ronin Dojo, Rod and Weil,   maybe a couple other people, and we're gonna be talking about distant tech and privacy in relation to Bitcoin.   So stay tuned for that. That should be a lot of fun.   I think our our YouTube now is at 2 strikes.   Marty's not gonna stop doing controversial   controversial interviews, so we will probably get banned there pretty soon.   So,   if if you wanna use a mainstream platform to watch,   make sure you go to twitch.tv/sil   dispatch and press subscribe there. We will continue to broadcast there.  

And, also, you can always watch it at bitcointv.com.   All of our archives are there, and   the live shows do get streamed there. It doesn't have   I I think you can subscribe there, but, you basically have to have your own peer 2 instance. So,   it doesn't really give you, like, a notification when we go live. But if you are in the live chat   or on Twitter, I notify people, what time we're going live, and it is always on Tuesdays unless I say otherwise.   So don't forget to join the live chat. If you go to sidlaldisbatch.com   and click sidlildot chat,   you can join the live chat.  

With all that said,   I wanna thank you guys.   Thank you for joining us. I wanna thank the freaks for joining us.   Cheers, and keep up the great work. Thank you.  

[02:08:00] Unknown:

Thanks, guys.  

[02:08:02] Unknown:

Thank you.  

[02:12:08] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. Hope you found that conversation,   as awesome as I found it, and I hope you found some use out of it.   And, just keep learning, keep educating yourself.   Take personal responsibility,   and improve your situation.   Be humble enough to realize you do not know everything, neither do I.   Together, you know, we'll we'll be better for it. I love you all. Do rabbit hole recap on Thursday,   from my vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap.   Then I'll do rabbit hole recap again next Thursday   from vacation because we never skip rabbit hole recap, but I am skipping dispatch, and I will see you back for dispatch on 8th.   Appreciate you all. Stay on the stack sets.