Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 53

BLOCK: 721418

PRICE: 2576 sats per dollar

TOPICS: threats to bitcoin, aopp, kyc services, taproot, open source licenses, lightning privacy

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[00:00:02] Unknown:

You know, I just,   fired up   a a miner in my house, an ant miner in my house. And it's   just chugging away, and it's sending   all this Bitcoin to   Slushpool, which then sends it to my Moon Wallet. And then I can take my Moon Wallet, and I can go out,   and I can buy a taco.   And just the fact that I was able to do that   is  

[00:00:30] Unknown:

incredible.  

[00:01:04] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your it's your boy Odell here for Citadel dispatch 53.   Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   You can join our matrix chat, which is,   allows you to participate   in   our discussion live at citadel.chat.   If you type that into your browser,   consider joining us. Don't be overwhelmed by matrix. It's a lot easier to use than you might think.   As I always start off the show, huge shout out to our supporters   who help keep dispatch a 100% audience funded,   ad free without sponsors, purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.  

This is,   a slightly new format for dispatch.   As you can see, if you're watching our live video streams, whether that's through bitcoin tv.com,   Twitch, YouTube, or Twitter,   I might appear as the only icon   on the screen talking.   But in reality,   I got a whole crew here   in person, and we will be having an in person discussion on this dispatch,   broadcast to you live.   If you're listening on the podcast apps,   I hope I hope the audio quality sounds sounds good. I mean, we have   a very elaborate setup here that was expensive.   So   it cost a lot of sats. I hope it I hope I hope,   you guys appreciate that.  

If you do wanna support the show, I now have a BTC page server up at sidledispatch.com.   You can support with lightning   or Bitcoin   on chain.   This is a nonfiat   operation, so that is the only way you can support the show is with Sats. You can also stream Sats using podcasting 2 point o apps. I really like Fountain Podcasts   and Breezewallet.   I heard that Podfriend is also pretty good.   If you're used to podcast apps, it's just like you'd be comfortable with already.   You install the app, You load it up with sats. You search Siddle dispatch.   Press that subscribe button,   and then you choose basically how many sats per minute you wanna stream to the show,   and that goes straight to my notes. So it is really appreciated.  

The freaks who continue to support dispatch.   A lot of people tell me I can't make this work and that the ad model is the only way, but I'm looking forward to proving them wrong.   So with all that said,   and pardon the long intro here because I'm a little bit out of my element in this new studio,   we have a very fun discussion,   set up here. I mean, when I say that, we also don't really know exactly where we're gonna go with it, but I'm pretty excited about it. We got some good big winners here.   First off, we have Ben Decarman here. How's it going, Ben? I'm pretty good. The new studio is pretty nice. I enjoy it.   He's our,   he   he's our ambassador from the council of Benz. Do the Benz tell you to say anything?  



[00:04:18] Unknown:

Yeah. We stand support with the Niels. We we appreciate their support and, Remy as well. This has been trying times for the Vans, but,   we're making it through with our friends. Is Remy, I guess, is on,  

[00:04:31] Unknown:

he's just on his own. Right? There's no there's no Remy counsel. It's just a single Remy. Counsel. No.   And we got we got Tony here. How's it going, Tony? Repeat guest on the show.  

[00:04:42] Unknown:

Pretty good. How's it going, guys?  

[00:04:44] Unknown:

Let's fucking go. And we also have Justin Moon in the studio.   He says he's not gonna participate, but I already have a mic set up for him. So I'm hoping   in the next half an hour, he's not gonna help himself, and he's gonna   walk up to the table, sit down, and grab the mic. So I'm looking forward to that.   So I titled this episode, threats to Bitcoin and the state of the network.   The state of the network aspect to me, I'm kinda thinking,   like, kind of a state of the union,   but with Bitcoin,   where do we stand?   As for threats to Bitcoin, I think we should start with that.  

It's been a very interesting week in terms of   Bitcoin   and the state or governments.   We had   Biden say president Biden say that he wanna do an executive order. Not sure exactly what he means by that. Not even sure if he knows what he means by that against Bitcoin.   Then but there was, like, some Russia back and forth.   There was   what else? There was a couple other There's that one bill in,  

[00:05:53] Unknown:

what's it? Oh, yeah. That one has, like, legal tender. Well, that that was a positive bill. There was  

[00:06:00] Unknown:

there was the one Coin Center reported on   that was included in that.   It was one part of a big ass bill. It was, like, pay it was, like, right in the middle of, like, a 2,000 page bill,   that said the treasury has the ability to just stop any transact, financial transaction they wanna stop, including Bitcoin transactions. Yeah. Good luck.  

[00:06:21] Unknown:

As AOPP  

[00:06:22] Unknown:

Yeah. We had the whole AOPP fiasco. So where do you wanna start?   I don't even know, man. I feel like Let's start with AOPP. So AOPP was stands for address ownership  

[00:06:36] Unknown:

Propose proposal. Proof pro proof Protocol. Protocol. I think so.  

[00:06:40] Unknown:

I think so. I think it's a0pp.group.   Make sure you have a VPN or tour when you go to that website.  

[00:06:49] Unknown:

So do you wanna talk about what that is and and and why there was backlash? Yeah. And there's it's basically just like a like, in Bitcoin, if you wanna prove that you own an address, you sign a message.   But, you know, you need to know what's messaging to sign before you actually do that to prove you on the   address. So AOPP is just like a thing that I think, like, the Swedish government enforce on exchanges to The Swiss. A Swiss. Okay.   But so it's just like a protocol for signing messages, and it's like a specific message. They have, like it's like super basic. It's just like a version number, a message,   and, like, the address type. And then you give, like, a URL to where to send this message afterwards. And   a bunch of hardware or no. A bunch of, like, mobile wallets and Trezor   implemented it, and then everyone got in a tizzy.  



[00:07:35] Unknown:

And then all of them, like, removed it or a lot of them did. Well, yeah. Treasure removed it. Shift crypto didn't remove it. And Shift crypto is the makers of the Bitbox. They're a Swiss company.   Mhmm. Yeah. I think they're the main people behind it too. Yeah. They helped create, the protocol. So the thing is it's interesting with the whole AOPP thing because,   obviously, it blew up on Twitter recently,   partially, I think, because Trezor had just integrated, and CoinDesk reported on it. But   Swiss Swiss exchanges,   have been required by their government,   their interpretation of the travel rule, to to prove withdrawal addresses, to prove ownership of withdrawal addresses,   I believe, a couple years ago.  

I think this started in 2019.   I might be mistaken on that, but it's been around for a bit. And and   what users were doing was they were going and they were they were signing a message with their Bitcoin transact with their with their private key,   which is a native operation that you can do in the Bitcoin protocol and a bunch of wallets supported, including Bitcoin Core.   Obviously,   for new users using, you know, a KYC   exchange,   this was a difficult task for them to complete.   I'm sure, you know, a lot of these   wallet providers were getting a lot of support requests, stuff like that.  

And the Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, or I guess a couple Swiss exchanges in partnership with Shift crypto, were like, let's make a signing protocol   that can just be, like, click a button, prove the address you own.   And then Shift Bitbox integrated first, and then I guess they've just been trolling open source projects, like submitting pull requests, just trying to get people to implement that, like, URI scheme or whatever. Click the link, automatically signs the address.  

[00:09:32] Unknown:

And without the KYC stuff, it's actually kinda useful. Like, if you wanna prove, it's like that you own an address or either, like you know, people always argue if, like, exchanges to prove funds or Or Craig Wright. Yeah. Like Craig Wright or, you know, it's like anything like that. And it's cryptographic  

[00:09:45] Unknown:

verifiable proof. So, like, if if Craig   is actually Satoshi, he should be able to sign a message with   with early,   Bitcoin keys,   and then we would be able to easily verify that message   was was made by someone who controls those keys,  

[00:10:05] Unknown:

which he hasn't done because he's a fraud. What maybe we need AOPP so we can make it so easy for him to get it. Difficult. Yeah. So the thing in Bitcoin is easy, but this is too difficult. So there's a couple nuances here. First of all,  

[00:10:20] Unknown:

the the way the regulators have it set up, it doesn't really stop anything   in terms of, like, criminal activity or anything because it just   even if you sign a   even if you if you even if you sign an address and prove that you own that address,   you're just adding an extra hop between, like, if you, like, send from that exchange.   The second thing is,   like, I feel like based on the outrage   that happened on Twitter   compared to the lack of outrage that happens with   pretty much every single Bitcoin company keeping track of our withdrawal addresses and our personal identifiable information,   passport photos, driver's licenses, home addresses, emails, phone numbers, IP addresses.  

I feel like people don't necessarily realize that even without the signing protocol,   you know, 95%   of users' addresses are   linked to their ID anyway if they're coming in through a KYC exchange, especially if they're not doing any   forward privacy techniques or anything. They're not considering privacy going forward after they withdraw.   With all that said, I mean, obviously, it was great to see the pushback. I just think it was a very interesting dynamic. I'm, like, curious   what you guys think about, like, the response. Was it warranted? Could it should it have been harder?   Like, where do we go from where do we go from here next? Like  

[00:11:51] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm actually,   because   they've they've had it for a while now, and it's it I don't know. I guess, like you said, the whole the article made it blow up, but,   I I don't know. I think the I think the response was warranted. I mean, we we need to be pushing back as much as we can and and telling everyone, you know,   that, you know, when we see something happening in the space, we, you know, we speak up and, like, try to try to get it fixed. So,   the fact that, like, companies, you know, I think BlueWallet, Treasure, like, so many different ones, actually, like, came forward and said, okay. We're we're actually gonna remove it.   I don't know if any, like, exchange or regulated entity that had it implemented in the Swiss. Like, the countries actually, like,   came out and said whether or not   they had any opinion about it because, I mean, they're not really supposed to speak much about regulations publicly.  

But I don't know. Like, the   on one hand,   it makes it harder for people to withdraw their funds if if the exchanges are gonna keep doing it anyways. But on the other hand,   good. Like, you know, these exchanges that are just complying with all these regulations and and, you know, not really caring about user, any user privacy at all or any any you know, just not even caring about the users that yourself or profit, whatever.   You know, make them make them push back themselves. If they really care about their profit models and, like, oh, you know, it's so so hard for users to withdraw, then actually fight back. I think the Bitcoin Magazine article that came out,   kinda like analyzing the whole AOPP,   stuff that went down,   actually, like, highlighted a good point that, like, there has been instances where, like, exchanges have tried to go to court and,   to fight these regulations, and then they ended up dropping the some of the regulations completely. They're like, okay. Well, this isn't worth the battle or, like, maybe this was just a broad overreach of the interpretation. So, like, we're not gonna we're not gonna fight any further. So until you actually try to get pushback, I I think I think pushback does does, does matter. I think we can try to create a change and then not set a bad precedent because there's there's another spot about regulations where if you're not doing what every other company does, like, there's no, like, laws around some some most of the stuff anyways. So, like, okay. You know, there's there's interpretations of, like, regulations, and then that's what people go for. And and if a company is, like, not doing what every other company has established as the these are our interpretations, then all of a sudden they're in hot water and they're on their own, and they're gonna be, you know, be, singled out and gone after for not complying   like everyone else. So I think we do need pushback, and I think,   you know, time will tell whether or not it it it, it actually works. But Yeah. I mean, I think that  

[00:14:29] Unknown:

that is the most solid argument against   something like AOPP, this this idea that, like, we shouldn't have   open source,   well regarded wallets,   making it easier for burdensome regulation   to be complied with,   because when you reduce that friction, you're basically   endorsing the exchanges that go through that process   and the regulations that they're complying with.   I I I think it it might be interesting, though, because   the wallets that they did choose were some of the best wallets in the space.   You know, BlueWallet is, you know, one of the best mobile wallets on the space, fully featured,   Bitcoin only. Sparrow wallet. I fucking love Sparrow wallet.  

I wonder if there's going to be and this is just, like, speculation. Like, I wonder if there'll be   more shitty wallets   that add support so that when, like, a Relay,   rela,   I, or one of the other Swiss exchanges,   like, needs to direct their users somewhere, they'll just direct them to the shitty wallet that has has the support.   You know, something like   Trust Wallet, which nobody should use,   has become very popular, especially in, like, the shitcoin community, and they don't even rotate addresses. Like, they just give you a fixed Bitcoin address.   So, like, when Trust Wallet adds AOPP,   are a lot of those users gonna then go and use those services? And I really feel like, to me,   the functional argument should be,   as a community, being more outspoken against KYC in the 1st place. Because if you withdraw from Cash App,   yeah, the majority   yeah. They don't know for sure that you're not paying yourself,   that that you're not paying someone else. Like, oh, I'm I could send a transaction to Ben from Cash App. Right?  

And they don't know that for sure. But if   if every week you're sending, like, the same amount   to an address, even if you're not reusing addresses, which, let's be honest, a lot of people are reusing addresses,   they can get a pretty good idea that it's you like, they'll have beyond a reasonable doubt that it's your address even without you signing.  

[00:16:47] Unknown:

No. Ben's Ben's my baby mama, so, like, I need to pay him weekly the same amount every time. Whenever I use a KYC exchange, I only withdraw to Ben. Yeah.  

[00:16:56] Unknown:

So there is a, like, a there's a question there. Right? I don't know.   I feel like I feel like the real argument should be pushing back against KYC   as hard as possible, but it's good that people also push back about this AOPP thing. And then the other question is, like, these are open source projects.  

[00:17:14] Unknown:

You can just, like, use the older version if you don't if you need the support.  

[00:17:18] Unknown:

Or, alternatively,   like,   someone could maintain a Sparrow or a BlueWallet with the AOP. It's already been written. They already they already know what what to merge for that. It probably doesn't break anything else in the wallet. Yeah. It's probably pretty simple.  

[00:17:33] Unknown:

Funny enough, it might actually, like, hurt privacy by removing this too because   if someone's like on the exchange now and like they don't know how to resign a new address, they might just start reusing old addresses that they withdrew from that they already   signed for. So it could actually, like, hurt user privacy that way too, sadly.  

[00:17:50] Unknown:

Right. Or using one of those terrible laws Yeah. Like like trust. Yeah.   Or even even worse, just holding it on the exchange the whole time and never withdraw because it's too it's too hard to do. And honestly, I've heard that argument. Yeah. Like, the AOPP the pro AOPP people, they were saying, like, we're doing  

[00:18:09] Unknown:

we're we're helping people get off of these custodial exchanges. And and let me be clear, like, I think, ultimately, a lot of these regulations are gonna end up where we can't withdraw anyway. Yeah.   So I feel like you just end up complying, complying, complying, and then it gets to the point where you're just stuck in these custodial loops. And then maybe, like, Cash App has a partnership with Strike or Bidstamp or something. You could send between those   regulated entities, but you can't actually withdraw and take custody. Like, I still think that is coming.   Do you guy like, do you guys think in America that's a possibility that   that regulated services won't even let you won't be allowed to let you withdraw, period?  



[00:18:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I know they're working on the whole VAST to VAST stuff currently, and and, you know, once that's in place, once they get all the exchanges to support it, they almost need that first. Right? Like, you know, trying to outright ban,   you know, Bitcoin, quote, unquote, you know, quote, unquote, ban Bitcoin,   without, like, at least a way to, like, you know,   herd users and herd Bitcoiners in a way where it's like, okay. Well, you know, we didn't quote, unquote ban it. Like, we can't do that. Right? So we're just gonna try to, like, keep them contained, and they can only, like, trade or they can only, like, buy and sell or they can only, you know, we know where they live, like, all the all these different things. Like, that's one that's one vector. And and I think they I think they are working on the whole vast vast stuff right now, and I think they almost need that in place before they can go, like, full full ape shit, really.  

[00:19:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   We have we have a user in the we have a freak in the comments. Mark Marcus Maximus says, it evolves into selfie check, holding up your signed message with a copy of your passport for any withdrawal. Reminds me of that Vitalik,   picture that he took. But, also,   supposedly, right before we went live,   someone sent me that, like, YouTube in Europe is requiring ID checks now   based on European law,   to make sure you're of age,   for certain content, and that was either credit card or ID scan. So k y c is really first of all, fuck YouTube,   bitcoin tv.com.  

But the second   the second thing is, like, KYC is just insidious, and it's just it's surrounding everything in our lives. Like, as Bitcoiners, we're very focused on   it entering Bitcoin land, especially since if you've been around for a little bit, there was, like, no KYC anywhere, so it was very obvious.   But it's literally   it's literally   permeating everywhere.   The other thing   while we're on this conversation I mean, I don't know if you guys saw the new Spectre release today.   Another great wallet, open source wallet,   focused on self custody, using your own node, multisig.  

You see, they integrated Swan,   not because of a regulator, but they integrated Swan because of,   my guess is mostly because of monetization. Like, they're gonna get a cut out of out of Swan dollar cost average users because you can sign up from Swan directly through,   Specter. Yep. And their integration   is   so I fucking   hate   KYC. I think KYC puts a lot of you it puts honest users at risk. I think criminals get around it. They either buy or   use stolen,   KYC information, ID information to get around these regulations, and the and   meanwhile, honest users are put at risk   all all sorts of different,   risks to themselves   that we see in these massive leaks that almost inevitably happen because the KYC information isn't stored very securely, and it's kept forever.  

With all that said,   I do believe   that   the KYC services that do exist, the regulated Bitcoin companies that do exist,   should try their best to basically,   guide their users to best practices.   And Swan has   done this in a couple ways. First of all, Swan has been pretty outspoken about providing education material to their users, including the risk of KYC. I've been on their podcast multiple times about it.   I know,   Gigi, when he was working there, he wrote up a whole thing on privacy and the different trade offs and risks with Bitcoin. I think the number one thing is just having this discussion over and over again so people are aware of the risk. Most people aren't aware of the risk.   But they also have no shit coins, and they do this   they're focused on they basically they try they monetize the stacking stats meme, but the idea is, like, a long term savings, dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin.  

Basically,   if if you're talking about actual financial loss, trying to reduce that risk in in that regard, try and make it a more conservative product.   And coupled with that, auto withdrawals   so that when you're   when you're buying on Swan, you don't have to think about it. What happens to a lot of people is they end up, you know,   their dollar cost averaging, then Bitcoin price goes up. They don't even think about it, and then, ultimately, they have way too much Bitcoin on a service. We saw this happen with Cash App. The limits are a certain height. You know, the limits are maybe too low in a lot of respects, and you can't actually get your Bitcoin off that quickly, and you end up trying to, like, meet the limits every week. It causes this whole this whole clusterfuck.   So Swan has auto withdrawals.  

They originally   and I I promise you, Freak, there's a reason for all this context here. They originally had you just put in an address, and you were getting auto withdrawal to that address, which, by the way, no a o p p, but that's obviously your fucking address. Yep.   Then they added this new feature where you could   provide an XPub   to them, and they would take, like, the first   so many addresses from it, and they said they'd delete the XPUB. And they actually have this open source tool that you can do that all locally if you'd if you don't wanna trust them, which you shouldn't.   Now Spectre   integrated this into their wallet. Right?  

So on Spectre,   you can either use an existing wallet or set up a new wallet. Best practice would be to set up a new wallet. And then Spectre automatically uploads the next ten addresses   to Swan,   which, by the way, no AOPP, but those ten addresses are obviously yours in that situation. Right?   Should the community   be angry at that? Like, where do we stand on that?  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

I mean, it's kinda a similar thing. Like, there's no actual signature, but it's very clearly saying, like, this is my address, and I wanna withdraw to it in the future. So And especially if it's coming from Spectre, there's certain there's a certain element there where they they know that, you know, Spectre has this flow where they're sending  

[00:25:05] Unknown:

There's probably sending 10 addresses.  

[00:25:07] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's very obvious that what's happening there. So that is, like, basically, this, like, you know, different flow, but basically the same effect. And, yeah, people are, like, celebrating it. So, I mean,   know, a lot of Bitcoiners just kinda, you know, celebrate the number go up things and don't fully think about it. But,   I don't know. And, like,   you can just simply not use the feature luckily.   But, it is kinda sketchy to, like, put that in, like, you know, your it's like Spectre's like a a deep deep cold storage kinda wall. It's not like your mobile blue wall that you, like, take for buying tacos. It's,   you know, this is like for your, like, life savings that you, like, give to your kids, which is, like, even worse that I think that's happening with. But you don't think if you're if you're using it if you're using a KYC service  

[00:25:51] Unknown:

already, you're already using Swan,   you don't think there is an advantage   to   basically,   dollar cost averaging with auto withdrawal directly to your cold storage multisig   without reusing addresses?   Because, obviously, you're still trusting   you're still trusting   Swan with that information. They have to keep it forever. They're gonna share it. It could be stolen   and then bought or whatever. Like, it probably will be.   But on chain,   you're not reusing addresses.  

[00:26:24] Unknown:

And you can do that without this like, what they implemented. Like, it's not that hard. And, like, ideally, you should be, like, withdrawing to, like, your, you know, coin join wallet and coin joining into your multisig,   cold storage. So, like, you know, this kind of inhibits that a little bit too. So you could argue that it's worse. But   and, you know, if you're just, like,   you know, if that's too much for you and you you you haven't gotten to that point yet, then maybe this is nicer because you might just have, like, one address saved and they're withdraw to it every time. So and maybe for, like, the total new, this is a UX improvement. But I I I think for  

[00:26:58] Unknown:

in in most cases, you could probably even assume, like, whether or not the user is, like, withdrawing to a quote, unquote, their address or or not, like, just based on the amounts. Like, was it was it an entire sweep? You know, did I log in and then, like, sweep my entire balance to a wallet? Did I just do a partial payment?   I think, eventually, like, you can have enough assumptions that,   that it is the user's wallet. And   I think in this case, you are right. Like, it's pretty much a 100% guarantee that it's gonna be their wallet that it, like, auto sucks you, but it it could not be. It could maybe it's your child's inheritance. Maybe it's like maybe it's like, you know, different type of,  

[00:27:37] Unknown:

I don't know. Maybe it's your baby. What does it matter? I mean, if it's your child, I think.  

[00:27:42] Unknown:

Right. I mean, yeah, for all intents and purposes, it's it's it's yours. I get it. So, like, yeah, there is a 100%   pretty much guarantee that it's it's really gonna be yours. But in in a lot of cases, like, if a user's just logging in to your service to do a withdrawal and, like, it's the entire amount, then boom. They know from there that it's, like, your entire that it's your address that you're doing a full withdrawal to. Right? So,   I see I see what you mean. I never thought about it in that case. I I do think, like, yeah, if you're gonna give your expound to to something like Swann, you should definitely be like a whole new   a whole new wallet or your, you know, your next 20 addresses or whatever,   should be a whole new wallet. But,   at least with at least with, like, Bitcoin, you can spin up, like, a new address relatively easy. So if it is, like, it's a brand new address, it's, like, never been seen before.  

You know, what what almost, like, it gets to a point, like, what does it matter if it was, like, was yours or not? Like, you know, you can mix right after, and then, you know, no one really knows. You can spin up a new address. You can do mixing, all kinds of stuff. But,  

[00:28:43] Unknown:

CoinJoin, collaborative transaction. Yes. CoinJoin. Not Not mixing. Yeah. Don't mix. I mean but I this is why all this stuff goes hand in hand. Right? Because we're also seeing exchanges crack down on people using CoinJoin after,   they withdraw. So when you combine these things together,   it gets pretty dangerous. And, also, most users aren't using   CoinJoin.   Most users are just keeping in custody. I mean, I have,   and almost all of them 99% of new users are coming in through KYC. They shouldn't, but they are. Most of them are keeping it on custodial exchanges. I mean, I have friends   from college,   that you know, like, I find out that they still have the they just keep their Bitcoin on Coinbase.  

I have one friend who is using Swan,   and he has auto withdrawal set up, and he's just been reusing the same address,   for the last year and a half or whatever.   Yeah. Your friend, dude. What the hell? I told him not to. You know, I'm just I I'm I'm honestly, I'm happy he's withdrawing. Yes. Right? And he's withdrawing too. I believe he has a ledger   that, like, I set up for him,   you know, like, two and a half years ago, 3 years ago,   that he, like, wrote the seed words down ineligible   like, you couldn't read the seed words, and then he he fucked up his ledger or lost it or something, and I had to restore it onto a new ledger. And we were guessing seed words, and we finally recovered it.   You know? So, like,   I feel like a lot of times we go, like, really deep into the weeds   and but the majority of people are just getting picked off left and right. And, of course, Bitcoin is,   at its at its core, is is basically a direct and center to practice personal responsibility, and we can never really put training wheels on that. Like, you're always gonna have to take, you know, responsibility of yourself.  

But I just wanna unpack this more. So, like,   Casa,   you can   DCA   through Casa. Casa has their own   onboarding service now directly to your Casa Wallet.   Casa  

[00:30:50] Unknown:

Same with Unchained.  

[00:30:51] Unknown:

Cas well, Unchained is more like, white label. Right? Like, it's I mean, white glove. Right? It's only for, like, more rich people.   Rich people need privacy too, though. Yeah. I know. But I I feel like there's a little bit of a difference there because,   I mean, if you're if you're,   You're not gonna have, like, 10,000,000 users. Yeah. And if you're onboarding if if you're trying to, like, put in a $1,000,000   into Bitcoin or   2,000,000, $3,000,000 into Bitcoin,   and you're like an oil baron or something,   no KYC options are a lot less accessible to you. Then maybe a Casa user is putting $50 in.   And I think I mean, obviously, I don't see their internal discussions. I think Unchained is   pretty good about it. I mean, we're all very close with a lot of the guys over at Unchained are pretty good about explaining the trade offs. A lot of these things is, like, I feel like Bitcoiners should have options,   but they need to be   aware of the trade offs so they can make an actual educated decision. Right?  

But, anyway, let's get back to Casa for a second. Casa   has a has a service where you can buy KYC,   optional, buy KYC with fiat to your Casa wallet.   Casa does not allow you to use your own node.   They have a closed source app. They obviously can   they can obviously track your transactions   going forward as well if you're keep continue to use Casa and your balances because you're using their node.   Worse than AOPP   or better than AOPP?   Oh, man.   I mean,  

[00:32:25] Unknown:

from a privacy perspective, it's it's it's worse.   Because, I mean, they I mean, they basically   it's a security versus privacy trade off,   with with something like Casa or Unchained. Like, they're they're gonna see a 100% of, like, what you own, and that's pretty much we're not a 100% of what you are, at least, like, what you put on to their platforms. I know that's that's a 100% you. Right? Like, they they know it's your addresses, your ex pubs, your, you know, multisig quorum, whatever it is. And,   I think there's some, like,   like, I think you can sign up sort of, like, anonymously on Casa, but then, like, once you use their KYC buying service, like, you're already you're KYC'd right then and there. Yeah. I will give Casa the the benefit that they allow you to sign up under NIM,  

[00:33:10] Unknown:

and you can pay for their subscriptions or whatever for their different levels with Bitcoin.  

[00:33:16] Unknown:

But then once you upgrade so far with Casa, then it's like this whole suite, like, where, like, you know, they do, like, additional identity checks. Yeah. You're you're not just some hacker that's, like, trying to break in or social engineer Casa. They have your IP address from the app unless you're, constantly running a VPN.   Right. Yeah. So I don't know. From a privacy perspective, using something like Unchained or Casa, like,   isn't really   a good model at all. You're you're you're you're trying to you're trying to improve your security at that point. And, you know, maybe,   you know, maybe at the end of the day, we just have to, like, come to that decision. Like, talk to talk to our friends, talk to our people and be like, you know, what what do you value more right now? Security, privacy. Ideally, you can combine them both, but, like,   you know, like like you said, line with your friend. Like, it's it's it's hard. You screw up your seat and then boom. That's that's you're over. I think Matt does bring up a good point, though. Like, no one's really out like, people are, like, constantly showing Casa  

[00:34:12] Unknown:

and, like, at the same time outraged by AOPP. But, like, there's at least one user that's, like, using AOPP and what's drawing to an address coin joining to his cold storage on his full node. And he has way better privacy than someone that's not using AOPP that's just using   Casa. And, you know, no one mentions that. And it's, you know, like,   people need to, like, you know, really break things down to, like, their core. And, like, okay. What like, what are we trying to achieve achieve here? Like, sovereignty and privacy. And, like, AOPP is a step in the wrong direction, but it's not the one thing to get mad about. Or, like, we need to, like, focus on, like, the real tools and, like, you know, like, running your own node using CoinJoin, all the stuff that, you know, people aren't always advocating.  

[00:34:49] Unknown:

I mean, even so, like, I jumped to Casa, but, like, this whole AOPP conversation started   with Trezor.   Trezor has a buy service built into their   Web Wallet, or they they now have Trezor Suite, which is, I guess, prob I think an Electron app anyway, but it's a new Web Wallet.   And that uses Trezor's node   to look up your transactions. Right? So that whole pros like, they know   that those are your addresses. It's hooked directly into, like, the Trezor's whatever flow they have.  

[00:35:24] Unknown:

Yeah. No. They That also seems to be a o p p. These these hardware wallets that, like, you know, give you this whole software suite that, like, connects to all their services.   Treasure,   Ledger. Ledger as well. I know they have, like, an open source Bitcoin only one that you can connect to your own node, but, like, most users aren't using that. Well, you can use all of these with your own node with, like, a Spectre or a Sparrow or Electrum or Blue Wallet. Right. Well, I mean 99% of Treasure and Ledger users are just logging into Ledger Live, using Ledger's What I meant was, Ledger Ledger Live has an open source version of their software,   that you can connect to your own Bitcoin node. That's that's what I meant. But, yeah, you can use all these hardware wallets with, like, different software that doesn't connect.  

So, like, yeah, like   like Ledger yeah. I mean, we we can only, like, sound the horn, like, so many times on, like, Ledger and Treasure. Right? Like, at least with AOPP, like, it just came out or at least It didn't, though.   The information just got out there into the public opinion, and then and then we all, you know, went outraged about it. But, like, you know, you're on TFC Sabre every week, you know, sounding the horn on a lot of a lot of the stuff. And, and, you know, it's   it's kinda I I don't wanna be, you know, pessimistic and say it's, like, old news at this point, but at least it's almost like what you said, Ben. Like, at least we're not stepping in in the wrong direction. Like, Casa is like an established business, and, you know, I don't know if they can ever get away from this whole idea that, like, you know, they know, you know, some of your information because you're literally trusting them   with, with this information. So,   you know, I don't know if that yeah. With a key and, you know, the part of your quorum and other that, like, there's there's almost, like, no way to change that, like, business model at this point. But at least we can take a, we can stop when, like, people are trying to go in a step in the wrong direction. Be like, no. That was a bad step. Like, backtrack.  



[00:37:10] Unknown:

Yeah. To, like, you know, everyone was, like, mad at Blue Wall for having this implemented, and they got to remove it. But, like, BlueWallet still has you know, it runs by default on their Electrum back end. And who knows what they're doing back end there? So, like, you know, it's the same thing. Or is this, like, you're just, like, sure. You got a small privacy one there, but you're still then just doxing your entire expub to this And their lightning wallet is custodial. Yeah.  

[00:37:34] Unknown:

They got more shit about AOPP being integrated than their lightning wallet being custodial. And that's not even just new users. Like, when everyone makes their pilgrimage to El Salvador, like, half the demo videos of people, first of all, shopping at McDonald's, which   McDonald's can go fuck itself.   But it's with Wallet or Satoshi or Blue Wallet, which are both custodial lightning wallets.  

[00:37:55] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's it's all fucked. That's the problem.   And like, for like mobile lighting laws that are like privacy preserving, like, it's hard. It's like, there's only like, you know, you can use Zeus, but you need to set up a node somewhere else. And a lot of people don't know how to do that. And then connecting it is even harder.   Or you can use, like, Moon, but, it has, like With 2 u's.   What do I use? I use Zeus. No. No. Moon has 2 use.  

[00:38:19] Unknown:

We had we had Jack Dorsey lead off this episode, by the way. He was the one talking about,   mining the slush pool and then buying tacos with his no k y c sets. Yeah. And he also did a moonshield and forgot to tell everyone that it was 2 years.  

[00:38:33] Unknown:

Yeah. But on on on the lightning side of it, you know, these custodians like, yeah, they're using, you know, blue wallets because I love Zeus.   Zeus Zeus is amazing.   That some of the new redesigns,   that Evan's been working on is fantastic too.   But honestly, from a privacy perspective, like with the current state of lightning, like, I love these, like,   non custodial or sorry, non KYC lightning custodians   from a simple fact that like I can hide like my true destination whenever I you know, share invoices and stuff. So,  

[00:39:05] Unknown:

right. But that's exactly why they're gonna have to add KYC. Oh, sure. Like, I don't know how they're getting away with it right now. What Tony is alluding to first of all, Tony came on the show and   ciel dispatch 21. So ciel dispatch.com/cd21,   and all we talked about was lightning privacy trade offs   and techniques. So if if if you're interested in learning more about, you know, the nuances of lightning privacy, because there are a lot,   go listen to that dispatcher. Go watch that dispatch. All the archives are on bitcoin tv.com if you wanna watch.   But   what what Tony was alluding to there is   that when you use a custodial service, it   the the the footprint   looks like as well, if you use an on chain custodial   service,   the footprint looks like an on chain mixer.  

If you use a lightning custodial service, you're basically combined with all of those other transactions.   You are still trusting the custodian   who can see everything.   But all else equal, if the is acting in good faith, if you use multiple custodians and the custodians have to include, there is a privacy benefit   to an external  

[00:40:19] Unknown:

actor if you use a custodial service. Right. Or and and, you know, and if if these, custodian, like, nuance, like, don't know your real identity either. Like Right. They don't have the KYC information. Exactly. And and But they have, like, your device ID, your IP address and stuff. Yeah. There there's some of that. So, like, definitely have good device hygiene, you know, when you're using some of this. Like, Wallace, Satoshi, there is an optional, like, sign up with email. So, like, you know, don't use that if if you're gonna use it. And and then, you know, immediately withdraw your funds when when,   when you actually get off. So they know some of that information. Wipe the apps often. There's a lot of foot guns. Yeah. Yeah. And and then even then, they can start correlating. Like, if I wipe my device and then I, like, you know, install it on a whole new one, and then I'm still sending it. I'm the only person sending it to this one note. Then you can even correlate the 2 devices,   the device IDs, and be like, yeah. That's probably the same person. This is the only device in the world that has ever withdrawn to this address. Right. They're sending to the same node pub key over and over again. Exactly.  

Yeah. Receiving on lightning   It's pretty  

[00:41:20] Unknown:

shit. Privately. Privately. Yeah.  

[00:41:25] Unknown:

It's all fucked. You run your own node.  

[00:41:27] Unknown:

Well, you know, run your own node, and and then there is a there is a post on the mailing list about how, like, lightning is using you know, you can kind of do   AOPP style things with lightning right now. Like, some people are using it for, you know, putting PII in memos and then having the user sign that. Posted that to the lightning mailing list. Yeah. That was yes I think it was yesterday or day before.   Yeah. There was some discussion on that as well. Like, you know you know, let's not like, the it was the advocating, I think, some guy named Arm d something, but,   there is an aspect where,   you know, memos aren't bad itself. Like, memos describe, you know, what the invoice, you know, you're paying for.  

But,   when you start, like, putting PII information into these memos and then getting users to to, like, write this into the memo and then, like, create the invoice, what's actually happening is that invoice is basically a signed statement from your Hub key note. Right. Because memos are all signed Exactly. By default. Yeah. So you give out this invoice. It's a signed statement from your note. Like, people don't really And it's not even just explicit PII. Like, the story I always tell with MemoGate for me was that I was I was running,  

[00:42:37] Unknown:

I was not running. I was participant in a poker game with a bunch of Bitcoiners,   and we had played, like, 5 or 6 times, and I'd always successfully not been the bank. And then one time, I got peer pressured into being the bank,   And everyone wanted to pay with lightning because it's a hot new thing.   So I   sent out a bunch of invoices to people, and I put   how I knew them, their NIM,   dash poker,   and one of the guys paid with Strike. And so now Strike knows   my pub key and my node,   so they know which,   you know, fortunately, got stolen, but before that, I didn't really have good hygiene on that. So they knew I was in the poker game and that I was the bank,   and then they knew his NIM connected to his personal information because he paid it.  

And in his defense,   unless he goes and actually decodes the lightning invoice before scanning with strike, he doesn't even know the memo says there's NIM in it until after he scans it with strike. Right? He scans it with strike, then he sees the memo. At that point, it's already on strike servers.   The doxing has already been done. Right. So this proposal   on the mailing list was,   fuck it. Let's get rid of these memos altogether.   Each person in a lightning transaction can keep memos locally if they wanna keep track of what their payments are,   but they don't have to actually be transferred in the invoice. Right? Yeah. Exactly.  



[00:44:06] Unknown:

That that was my interpretation as well. Like, because you, you know, you shot yourself in the foot by putting this, you know, poker information in the invoice, and the other person shot themselves in the foot by, like, scanning something they didn't even know. And then all of a sudden, okay. And then they went through and they paid it. So, you know,   now imagine, like, you know, in this case, Stripe knows that. Right? But chain analysis a few months back, just like, you know, said that they're, you know, somewhat supporting lightning. They weren't, like, super public about how they were doing it, but there is a podcast,   for the Casa, you know, privacy thing that they had at the beginning of the year with me and Lisa and and Nava,   Nadav,   where we kinda, like, came to the conclusion,   most mostly,   she did like that.  

Basically, like, they could be aggregating all of these, like, custodian,   you know, invoices. Like, if they're doing anything, like, the laziest thing that they could be doing to support, like, chain analysis on lightning, it's just to, like, be tracking invoices. Like, who is what user is paying, what invoice, and, you know, what's the payment reason, and where's the note it's going to? Like, that alone   is a scary thought that, like, people there's this aggregator of, like,   associating payment reasons with notes. And I think, like, sure, there could be, like, some use cases where, like, you know, memos are useful.   There is there is someone on the mailing list that was kind of advocating, well, at least at least, you know, if we get into the scenario where, you know, you can start using lightning privately and you have a really, know, good access to send it to, like, a private node. And then from there, no one can see what you're doing. Like, that's that's great. But, like, the current situation is, like, you know, users are getting fucked right now creating invoices, not realizing that, like, it's perfectly it's it's verifiable to the whole world if if someone were to get that invoice. So imagine everyone just tracking invoices   and, you know, who's paying what note. It's,   scary thought.  



[00:45:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's fucked. Like,   what I try to do nowadays is, like, if some if I'm gonna guess on an invoice, I would say, like, what are you paying it with? And they say strike. Okay. Oh, I put no invoice or or no memo. Or if they'd say, like, you know, oh, my Zeus or, you know, it's their local note. Okay. Okay. I'll put in the memo now so we can actually, you know, have accounting. But it sucks because it's like it makes the UX works.   And, it's kind of sucks out. This is like ingrained into Lightning where, you know, it's like a Bitcoin address. There is no memo attached to that. So, you know, even if you're reusing an address every time, you're at least not telling, you know, Coinbase, like, oh, this is my rent payment. This is this. This is, you know, me buying drugs. You're just putting that at you're just giving them an address and it's you know, there's no context to it versus,   the the lightning. It's all contextual. Like, the custodian can see that. So,   it's nice. Like, lighting does have a fix for this already baked in with the description hash.  

Or you can, just give a hash of, like, the description, and then you can, get around that where, you know, there is no, like, easily readable memo, but it makes where selects where either the user needs to verify that description hash, like, outside   or, like, a lot of people might just dumb. We just give the invoice with the that has the hash in it, but also give the the actual,   memo. And then, you know, the wallet has it anyways now, even though it's not included in the invoice. So you need to like   it's a hard problem to solve. And   I don't like for like a opera turn bot after his   talk on the lightning, you know, privacy thing, I changed it. So it does the no longer it does the memo saying opera turn bot and it just says,   you know, the, the head description hash and the user can verify it themselves. But,   you know, my nose is the only one behind return button, you could just go through the messages and It doesn't work right now. Yeah. It doesn't work right now. Don't try it. But,   like, the the the memos are pretty easy to figure out. Just off return back call and then the message that the,   the the custodian could just go through all the messages that it's   done and because those are all public and just find which invoice was there. So it's not a total solution, but,   you know, it's hard. That's the problem.  



[00:47:56] Unknown:

Yeah. It it is. But I just I just feel like if we could just remove memos completely, like And then some wallets don't even let you pay without putting in a Yeah. Lets you create a lightning invoice without even   putting in a memo. You said, you know, sometimes you'll ask people how they're gonna pay you.  

[00:48:13] Unknown:

Yeah. It was crazy. Like, even the Chivo Chivo wall when it first came out, like, the very first day, Matt all allberg.   Yeah. From,   I forgot where's from tulips. Useful tulips.  

[00:48:24] Unknown:

Yeah. So he found out that, Chivo Law was creating invoice with PII, and then, like, you know. The memo was their full legal name. Yeah. Exactly. And then he discovered it, and then they changed the memo the default memo to thanks, Matt Albor. Yeah. So for, like, a day and a half was that PII in there. Yeah. That's right. A day and a half, every Chivo invoice was thanks, Matt Alborg.  

[00:48:46] Unknown:

It's it's it's not common common knowledge, and I think that's you know, I think we need to bring some awareness to that. Like, let's just get rid of memos. Like, too many people are are shooting themselves in the foot with that. So, I mean, this brings me to another conversation, which is  

[00:49:02] Unknown:

something that I don't really like talking about because I feel like it's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, but I know it's gonna happen. So   I like to talk about it so we can try and preempt it.   What I think the narrative around Bitcoin privacy is gonna be   is that   we're gonna see, you know, thought leaders and industry leaders and companies and stuff say,   it's hard to use Bitcoin privately,   but   if you use it in a self sovereign way.   But if you use us, we will give you bank level privacy,   which is this idea that   the person you're paying doesn't know information about you, or the person who's paying you doesn't know information about you, but instead, you're just trusting your whole financial life with a single regulated financial institution, which is the current banking system.  

It's the PayPal model. It's the Cash App model,   in those so called peer to peer transactions. Like, if I pay you using Cash App, Fiat, or whatever,   I don't know what you do with that money afterwards. I don't know how much money you have. Obviously, Cash App knows everything.   So I kind of see that narrative   happening,   and   what reminded me of it was Ben saying when he asked people how they pay them.   Because what I do when people pay me on chain   is I always try and look back at their transactions   on,   a block explorer.   Right? So you open mempool.space,   you put in the transaction ID or your receive address, and then you start clicking through and seeing,   you know, how did they send this payment? Did they use CoinJoin? Did what do they do? Like, did it all just come from a single transaction?  

And a lot of people pay me directly from Cash App. And I confronted some of them, and they were like, Matt, we know   that you're gonna look at our transactions.   So I pay you from Cash App so you can't see what my Huddl stash is. I pay you from Cash App so they have no   so that that you have no sight into there. And they basically just   say, I'm gonna trust this financial   regulated party with my because   I don't think I can do it myself.  

[00:51:05] Unknown:

Good thing Cash App doesn't have AOPP.  

[00:51:07] Unknown:

Not yet.  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there are, like, some solutions to that, though. Like, like, Blockchain, they're funding that, Chaumie and Mint thing where you could have, like, the fully custodial thing with, like, nice UX,   also having perfect privacy inside the system.   That kinda solves it where you can,   have these, like, you know,   these, like, easy, you know, custodians. We don't have to worry about coin joint and all that stuff, but then you can send out outside of it. And, like, but internally, you're still, like, perfect privacy, which is really nice. It's,  

[00:51:39] Unknown:

Do you think, like, a heavily regulated   institution like Cash App would would implement something like that for their users?   So that's that's that would be the problem. I would hope they would, but, yeah, it's  

[00:51:50] Unknown:

that's a long the big ask. I mean, I think, like, it'll probably start out like,   like, you know, the blue walls and walls of Toshi's of the world where, you know, there's improved privacy in the app, and then eventually,   maybe someone would adopt it. I mean,   I do like, like, what,   like, bull Bitcoin. The reason they coin join all their user funds before sending it out is because they they say, like, their interpretation of the   Canadian law is that if they don't do that, they're hurting the user's privacy. And that's against the law because of, like,   GDPR or whatever privacy laws they have. So I think, you know, maybe you could try to get a lawyer to find that approach, but, you know, that's But even in that situation, I mean, I applaud Bull Bitcoin,  

[00:52:32] Unknown:

for actively using CoinJoin and supporting collaborative transactions,   but it doesn't give the user any privacy from Bull Bitcoin.   No. The user still needs to go and manually,   you know, use CoinJoin or use another privacy technique after that. What we need are like the, you know, regulated entities, like shuffling people into  

[00:52:51] Unknown:

coin join solutions, like, you know, use, you know, use samurai wallet for all your,   you know, receives. Like, you know, we suggest you withdraw to this wallet and then, you know  

[00:53:02] Unknown:

you know, do do Well, that was kind of with AOPP, what was happening with Sparrow. Sparrow was the only one with AOPP.   They're a self sovereign wallet that has, you know, collaborative transaction tools built into it.   Right.  

[00:53:16] Unknown:

So what so let's go back to that a little bit. I mean, wouldn't wouldn't that have been a great scenario? Like, you're you're being able to, like, you're being able to, like, verify that you own this one address. Right? But then you, like, you Coin join. Coin join right after. I guess the Already built into the law. The problem is the fact that, like, they know it wasn't a payment and that it was you. At least, like, if I don't verify, you know, my address via AOPP, like, I could have just been giving it to, like, you know, this one person on the Internet, and they they were coin joining run after. So, like, hey. Don't get mad at me. Like, you know, that was just I was just paying a person for that. Like, if the regulators start cracking down, they're like, okay. You you meant, you know, you were coin joining one day. Like, you know, we're we we put you on a list. Like, well, no. It wasn't me. That was that was a payment. So I guess with AOPP, even Sparrow Wallet, even if users were coin joining right after,   it's still it almost it's almost worse. It almost proves that they were coin joining right after Or you could do a hop.  



[00:54:08] Unknown:

You could do a hop. Right? But, like, you know Yeah. Nicholas Daurier, who's, like, one of the lead maintainers of BDC pay, was saying he could he was thinking about adding AOPP to b c PTC pay. So when you're paying a service Yeah. You could, like, pay it directly from the exchange and say, oh, that was just a draw. Yeah.  

[00:54:24] Unknown:

6102 had that idea. 6102 called it,   AOPP   relays.   So, like,   so, like, if you built it into the wallet where, like, you were running Sparrow and, like,   if if we were,   I don't know, synced somehow,   you could just manually   feed me   signature information.   And you only need it at the time of payment and, like, you know, it's nice. It's, like, a BTC pay server is gonna be online, so you could just But I still think I go back to just this all being bullshit, and just the focus should be on educating users on the dangers of k y c and pushing back on  

[00:55:00] Unknown:

a fully KYC ecosystem. Right? Right. Like like like, let's say we're in a scenario where, like, AOPP is, like,   like, forced on a forced on a people,   and that you know? Like, what is the only way to withdraw from Coinbase? Right. At that point, we just have to an address. Like, we just have to be more aggressive in just recommending,   you know, solutions like peer to peer or or or or or Bisc or something like that. Like, would that be Or mining. Right. Or mining. Or selling goods and services.  

[00:55:28] Unknown:

We have to make that that Or Bitcoin ATMs. You know, there's Bitcoin ATMs in a lot of places, including in America,   depending on how cut your state is,   where they only require a phone number, and that could be a burner phone number. Right. But how many Bitcoiners do you know like, even even the hardcore  

[00:55:45] Unknown:

people that are still using KYC services, and they say, well, you know, I'll keep using Cash App. I'll keep using this and that. We're not even showing them   that we can we can do it in, like, the most self sovereign, like, peer to peer way. Like, we're we're saying all this. Like, yeah, don't use Coinbase, and, like, we're still using Cash App. Like, we're not even proving the point that we can we can do this ourselves. So, like, we're not leading by example, I think, enough. Like, I recently deleted all my KYC services. I don't use any KYC services  

[00:56:12] Unknown:

anymore,  

[00:56:13] Unknown:

but I have in the past. Right. So you won't sign for new ones. I've both used Coinbase and Cash App in the past. Yeah. But but still, though, I mean, I don't think we're we're leading enough example, like, showing users that, like, you know, it is possible. Like, this is the ideal. Like, we need just to stop saying, like, go to, you know, go to Cash App. Go go here. Go to Swan. Go go anywhere. We just we just need to say those aren't options. Like, none of them. Let's just just just, you know, push back completely.  

[00:56:37] Unknown:

And it's hard, though, because, like, you know, like, I'll, like, recommend my friend, like, oh, you could buy it on Bisk or find it. Like, I have a friend that's an S TECHO deal. You can buy it from them, but it's, like, such worse UX than Cash App or, like, Robinhood was already KYC'd on. So there's a lot of people just, like, fall into that trap and use it. But, you know, like, you know, like, I think a part of the pitch you have to to get people to use that is they need to truly understand Bitcoin   before they, like, realize that   they wanna know KYC. But a lot of people, you know, they need to own a lot of Bitcoin before they started really understanding, like, why they want to own this thing. So it's it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem, which is hard. But,   you know, it's just like more education is, like, kinda what we need to do, I guess.  



[00:57:16] Unknown:

And UX.  

[00:57:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Tools and education   are the key. Yeah.   But   so if you were   there's still   I I assume you don't believe that there's no room for KYC services.   And if that's the case,   then what does the ideal   KYC Bitcoin on ramp look like?  

[00:57:41] Unknown:

You coin joint straight out of it, and   is you have, like, a chammin inside of it, so you could you know, the the exchange never knows who you're sending to. That'd be ideal. And then But how does that look how does that look in practice? Does that look like,  

[00:57:57] Unknown:

is there a separate   is there is is there a separate,   open source wallet that the user is withdrawing to where it happens? Because if it happens at   if it happens prior to withdraw, it doesn't really help anything.  

[00:58:11] Unknown:

Yeah. You'd have to build a wallet, like, specifically. Like, you'd have to create a protocol around it. But, I mean, I wanna be, like theoretically, it's You could call it AOPP. Yeah.   Trying to get a clever   renaming of it. But, yeah, I mean, theoretically, you could, like, do the same thing of a coin joint instead of, like, registering your inputs. You just register, like, a blind exchange   withdrawal from the exchange. And the exchange only knows that, like, these 5 users withdrew in this   coin join. They don't know which address belongs to that user afterwards.   So you could theoretically do something like that where the the exchange just doesn't know your withdrawal   addresses. They just know which one you're in this transaction   of how many people.  



[00:58:51] Unknown:

But wouldn't in that situation I mean, you're coming from a custodial wallet, so the exchange would   first first of all, the Tommy Mint thing you keep bringing up, I had Eric Serian on dispatch. I don't I'm not Stefan Levera. I don't know which episode it was, but it was a really good conversation on it. He thinks it's, like, 2 and a half years away or something like that. Far away. And that's, like, the optimistic take. So  

[00:59:14] Unknown:

Right. But I I I see what you're saying though with with the whole,   you know, if if if you you could do something like there's a withdrawal request and and and you, you know, you you know, you're about to withdraw with, like, a whole bunch of other users and, like, people can anonymously,   in a way, submit like, they can redeem their request and, like, submit to, like, a random,   like, random address that, you know,  

[00:59:36] Unknown:

like, the same way you register   a withdrawal from,   not withdrawal, but, like, the same way you register a coin join in, like, samurai, wasabi, or join market, you could register withdrawal the same way. It's from an exchange and,   you know, just you know, you're just dishonestly giving an address.  

[00:59:52] Unknown:

And But when you register with with Samurai or Wasabi,   when you're when you're doing that CoinJoin transaction,   it's basically a bunch of partially signed Bitcoin transactions.   You're   you know which address you're sending it to. You alone know which address you're receiving it to. The other participants don't know which participant it it is. Right?  

[01:00:16] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like like, in samurai or sabi, you,   everyone has, like, inputs and they give, like, a blinded,   output to the coordinator.   And the coordinator signs it, and then you use that sign thing to prove that you did register inputs,   and you give it unblinded to the   coordinator. So they say, like, oh, okay. Here's this person, I signed it there. They already signed the registered inputs. I don't know which inputs. And then here's their address to withdraw to, and then they get it. In the exchange, you're instead of, like, registering inputs, you'd, like, go and, like, register a withdrawal, like, you know, same way that you do in, like, a GUI. And then you would just,   you know, the app would separately would request the   withdrawal with the, like, the signed with, edge address with the blinded signature. So it's kind of like the similar thing. It's just instead of giving a Bitcoin input, you just say, here's a   request withdrawal. So it's theoretically possible. It's just, you know, I don't know if that exchange would stay up long. They actually implemented it. Because of regulators. Yeah. Exactly.  



[01:01:15] Unknown:

I mean, the key is right? I just to break that down a little bit. I mean, the the key issue that's being trying   that you're trying to solve in that kind of situation is   the exchange   not being able to know what the withdrawal address is. Mhmm. Right? Because right now, the exchange knows your full,   identity information that they   ask you for,   and then they know your withdrawal addresses. And from there, that information could be used to track future transactions and balances. Right. Like, if we could get something like blinded pass on lightning and,  

[01:01:49] Unknown:

also get exchanges to to support lightning withdrawals,   specifically   blinded pass because I don't think you can just think the center has to be aware of it to be able to do it.   And so who who knows if if exchanges would even want to support that or or can support, like, not knowing where the payment is gonna end up. But I I hope line of pass become a thing online. I think it'll be a lot better once it is, but, you know, exchanges may just, like, decide not to support that. And, optimistically,  

[01:02:15] Unknown:

they should be able to. Like, Gemini supports withdrawals of blinded CCaaS addresses. Okay. So, I mean, here's so here's the case study for you. Right?   Does Gemini support shielded,   shielded?   And there's somewhat Monero too. Right. So so here's that's the example I'm gonna say is Monero. Right? Monero has stealth addresses.   Theoretically,   the way it's designed is you would draw to   to   to this Monero address that looks like a Bitcoin address from but that from that point forward,   they can't,   tell where your your Bitcoin where your Monero goes from that point.   There's still a massive contingent of   of Monero users that believe that that KYC Monero is an attack on Monero.  

Like, the the is that KYC threat still exists in that situation. Right? Yeah. Because it's still, like, you know  

[01:03:11] Unknown:

you know, Matt O'Dell, Bob Monero, and then they can come and knock on your door and be like They know how much you bought and when you bought it. Exactly.  

[01:03:18] Unknown:

Even if they even if you and I guess the same case study could go with just CoinJoin. You withdraw Bitcoin from an exchange.   You use CoinJoin.   Let's say you don't shoot yourself in the foot and you use it properly, and they the exchange can't tell where your transactions go forward.   Right. Does it does it mitigate some of the rest risks of KYC? Yeah. But it doesn't completely  

[01:03:42] Unknown:

Yeah. At least it minimizes the information that they know.   Like, sure, they know you bought Bitcoin, that you made a withdrawal, but it's afterwards that you you wish the exchange   doesn't know or any regulated entity knows at all.   Like, you know, enlightening your node pub key, like an exchange shouldn't need to know that at all. They just need to know that you withdrew. Sure. They know that like, ideally, they they don't know anything. But if you're buying Bitcoin from them, then they're gonna know that.  

[01:04:09] Unknown:

Right.   And  

[01:04:12] Unknown:

it kinda depends, like, what's just your, like, what's your model? Like, if it's   that someone's gonna, like, buy my name and picture of my ID on the dark web and use it to, like, steal my identity and rack up like that, then, yeah, then KYC is, like, the only threat there. And who cares if I coinjoin?   If If your concern is, like, the government's gonna come knock on my door and try to beat me down for my Bitcoin,   KYC then is also important threat there. But if it's like, I don't want,   Matt to know my, you know, HODL stack, then KYC doesn't really matter, and I want to coinjoin. Like, it's kinda depending on what you're trying to optimize for here. Ideally, you wanna, you know, avoid all of those things. You do everything. But,   you know, it's hard. If you if you don't think the government's gonna break down your door and kill you,   then maybe, like, KYC is a okay trade off if you're not gonna, you know, take the chances. But, you know, obviously, we don't think that's worth it. But yeah. But, I mean, it's not just our it's not your own government that's the only threat. Right? Yeah. Like, we we've seen I mean, China has,  

[01:05:10] Unknown:

they've hacked government employee databases of their own state employees. Right? Like, they can't even   our government can't even protect,  

[01:05:19] Unknown:

you know, state department employee databases. Yeah. They're just honey pots for attackers. So, like, you know, if our own govern yeah. Another government could come in and hack it. Right? Or or just like some some random hacker out there, like, you know, hacks into, like, just my own Coinbase account, right, and then sees all that information. So, you know, know, you don't want you don't want that either. So they're just honeypot's information,   just prime for it to be attacked completely.  

[01:05:44] Unknown:

Indeed.   So that was a somber conversation.  

[01:05:53] Unknown:

Do we have a conclusion to that? Do we have actual data for people? Like, don't use don't use k y c. I mean, look.  

[01:06:00] Unknown:

If you're gonna use a KYC service, understand the trade offs,   limit yourself to your exposure to KYC,   don't go and sign up for, like, 8 different KYC services, which a lot of newcomers do. They sign up for everything fucking under the sun, handing their information to everybody.   Ideally, avoid KYC altogether.   And regardless, in either situation,   you should learn about privacy best practices and improving your understanding of Bitcoin so you can use it more privately.  

[01:06:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I think people underestimate how hard it or overestimate how hard it is or no.   Or they think it's too hard to get KYC free Bitcoin. It's, like, it's not that hard. Like, Biscuit is not that bad to use.   And, you know, if you go to your local meetup, there's, you know, like if you're in Austin, it's like 200 people there. There's there's gonna be one person selling Bitcoin there.   And, you know, or if you're,   you know, there there's lots of, like, different ways to do it. And if you try hard enough, you'll find it's not that hard. Like And yeah. And when it comes down to, like, I think in terms of, like, the dispatch  

[01:07:00] Unknown:

audience,   to, like, all the people that are listening to this, I mean, when you go and onboard your friends and family,   like, don't just hand them off   to a KYC service. Like, they should get their first stats from you,   but no KYC   and a self custody wallet,   that ideally you've done some research on.   And, like, a perfect example of that to me is, you know, first of all, I love, you know, giving wedding gifts and birthday gifts as sets.   Open Dimes are fucking awesome for that.   Or, like,   you go out to dinner, right,   and one of your friends decides to pay with his his, you know, surveillance capitalism card, his credit card,   pay him back in sets. Right?  

Let them get a taste of  

[01:07:51] Unknown:

of of what real Bitcoin is. Yeah. I mean, I would love to see more of, like, a circular   local economy of of of people just, you know, buying and selling stats   to each other,   just on on a normal basis.   Whether if it's the cards or whether if it's, you know,   I'm buying something from you, and I'll just, you know, 30, 20 $20 worth of stats for it. I would love to see more local local as a spin up. And I think, like, you know, there's meetups spinning up all the time. And so it's like, yeah, like what Ben was saying, like, just walk in your meetup and say, like, hey. I'm I'm having trouble, like, you know, where where should I really go to, you know, to buy Bitcoin or or whatever. And and, if I'm trying to be, like, the most private, like, people will help you with that. Yeah. Like, there's usually gonna be one guy that is trying to sell or there's gonna be, like, 4 people that know the best ATM in town that can get you some. It's like, you know, definitely just talk to people. You know, your local community is, like, one of the best places to to find help on that. But the key is the key is the KYC requirements. Like, if you start  

[01:08:52] Unknown:

like, the Bitcoin privacy discussion is much more difficult in an environment where everyone is KYC KYC ed. When I say everyone, obviously not everyone, when the overall majority of people are going through KYC services.   That's to me, that should be the crux of   debate and improvement. And I feel like a lot of times, like, we have these technical Bitcoin conversations about how to improve Bitcoin privacy,   and it's almost like the KYC element isn't even really considered.   Mhmm. Like,   where we have and, like, I have so much respect for   our open source developers and all the people that make   these projects possible,   but a lot of times it's just, like,   it's kinda, like, just hand waved away, like, don't they shouldn't be using KYC.  

So, like, I go back and forth where, like, I feel like   first and foremost, we should be trying to educate people on the dangers of KYC. We should be ideally having people avoid KYC.   We want to nurture   a circular economy where people aren't buying Bitcoin.   They're earning Bitcoin. They're not selling Bitcoin. They're spending Bitcoin.   All of these things help mitigate the issues, but at the same time,   when we're talking about tools that are being built on Bitcoin,   at least right now,   especially when it comes to privacy, those tools should be   operating   under the assumption that most of those users are KYC users. Right?  



[01:10:18] Unknown:

What do you mean? Like, what what's an example   of of that?  

[01:10:25] Unknown:

An example of that is,   using your own node, practicing coin control, labeling your addresses, which is something we didn't talk about right now, which everyone should also be doing.   I think that's probably the bare minimum in terms of trying to use your privacy,   but all of that information is also saved   by KYC parties,   right,   regardless of you doing that   in practice.   Or talking about   improvements   to how,   Lightning privacy works in terms of opening channels.   But the reality of the situation is you do a collaborative transaction to open a lightning channel in the future maybe when that's possible, which should be awesome.   And then, you know, 9 of the 10 participants are KYC'd.  

Did you really gain much? I mean, you gained something on chain there in terms of on chain footprint, but in practice,   you didn't gain as much as you thought you did.  

[01:11:28] Unknown:

Right. So, like, the anonymity set isn't isn't as strong as it it could be, and, you know, even us is, like, like, yeah, we'll just we'll just, you know, coin join or, you know, wasn't there an argument of like,   I don't want to get into like   coin join wars or anything, but wasn't there an argument of, like, you know, one implementation is a coin join. It was just mostly like a single exchange, You know? So it's like, what what do you what privacy are you gaining if if, like, all the users you know, if one exchange is, like, all the all the all the, you know, outputs, then it's like, you know, you're not not as private as as you think you are. And and I think you're,   and   I think you're right. I think there's still a lot of better privacy improvements that we can we can have, like, on individual nodes and wallets and stuff. Like, I don't know any lightning wall besides Zeus that has, like, you know, you can tag, like, on chain transactions or or things like that. Like, I definitely love to see, you know, more, you know, more privacy stuff in the open source realm, and there was a wasabi grant, not too long ago, like, you know, designing the most, you know, private,   lightning wallet that you could. So there's still a lot of improvements to have.  

It's just like getting the developers to, like, focus on that when it's not necessarily, like you know?   There's no, like, business model there in a lot of ways sometimes. You know? But that was what's interesting about the centralized coordinated  

[01:12:43] Unknown:

CoinJoin. Right? Because up until that point   just to bring us back to the earlier conversation, up until that point,   the main way that   noncustodial   open source wallets monetized was by integrating KYC services.   Right? But all of a sudden, with these CoinJoin fees, there was a way for them to monetize directly in Sats,   ideally incentivized to help their users' privacy at the same time without collecting   personal information or taking custody of any funds.  

[01:13:14] Unknown:

I think it's brilliant. I'm glad they found that business. Yeah. I would like to see more projects kind of  

[01:13:20] Unknown:

try for that. I think people are a little bit frightened,  

[01:13:26] Unknown:

even though it's not explicitly illegal. Yeah. Yeah. That's the scary part. Like, it's not explicitly illegal, but they could just change the law and then knock on your door. So, like, you can do it anonymously, but then it's harder to, like, get users and Right. You know, it's,   you know, it's a whole thing. And, you know, no one's perfect. Unless you're Satoshi, no one says, like, really mastered perfect privacy. So   it's hard, but   I I do hope people start doing it. Like,   I don't know.   Sabia and Sam are doing pretty well. And, like, kinda like, you know, when wasabi was a single address, you could tell how much money they're making and, like Yeah. 1st year, they made 50 Bitcoin and fees, like Yeah. That's a good amount of money. Like   so  

[01:14:07] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe lightning knows, you know, start to get into the mix a little bit. You know, you can  

[01:14:12] Unknown:

do, liquidity providing Right. Like the LSPs.  

[01:14:15] Unknown:

Yeah. You can have some, you know, privacy focused LSPs or or, you know, you're you can try to set up an offer term, but set up an offer term. I mean, but more so on the privacy side, you know, even just like funneling   funneling,   funds through the lightning network and, you know, paying for those fees. So you're, like, helping all the nodes on the network   that are providing liquidity,   things like that.  

[01:14:44] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think that is,   good points all around. I think we have provided some good actionable   steps there. Also,   2 episodes ago, it was just we just straight talked about KYC as well. So,   if that element of the conversation interests you,   consider going back and listening to that seal dispatch   51.   Just did some basic math.   So, guys, you wanna switch to maybe   something a little bit more positive.   What are we what are you guys most excited about in the next couple months   in Bitcoin land? What should we have to look forward to?  

[01:15:27] Unknown:

All the Taproot stuff, I think. Like,  

[01:15:29] Unknown:

Yeah. So you just released your first, mommy blog.   It was very good. Was it Benz Bites? Yeah. Ben's Bites dot I o.   And you were talking about Taproot a little bit. You wanna go into it? Or Yeah. Like, I Taproot was, you know, activated  

[01:15:44] Unknown:

2 months ago.   And, I tried to highlight in that, like, just basically, like, it happens, and these are all the things that are happening next or should be happening next. And, like, we're making a lot of progress, it seems like. It's like Bitcoin's like this like, so, like, when bit when Taproot activated, a lot of Sharecoiners are like, oh, look. No one's using it. What a failure. But it's like, no.   Like Right. We're actually decentralized. We don't just have products ready.   So,   so, like, the things are happening now where   like, music too, the implementation of that just got merged. So that'll allow,   people to do, like, multisig that looks like single sig in a clean way. That's, the, like, the actual cryptography. If library merged that, it's now like they're working on a BIP so they can standardize the process of how to do all that stuff.  

What else did I have in there? There's, like, frost, which is, like, the even better version of that. So you could do threshold signatures.   Fuck. What else is in there?   So but what does this mean for the what does this mean to the average Bitcoiner who who's listening right now? Like, what can they what can they look forward to? So and there's just a lot of, like like, you know, it's some of the stuff is probably, like, a year or 2 away, if not more. But it's like I thought we were about to have Justin join us. Almost. He just brought us a laptop.   But,   you know, it so, yeah, music and Frost is the 2 first two things I had where, like, these are, like, really important things that just, like, for 1, it helps with user privacy, whereas you're, like if you're using something like Casa or in chains, it's very obvious on chain that you're using a multisig and that can they go. But see, that goes back to my earlier example. Right? We're, like, oh, like, you can hide that you're using a multisig, but they're just doxing all their addresses to this regulated party anyway. Yeah. So but, like, say for the, like, the multisig we're in for the,  

[01:17:31] Unknown:

the joint market bounty, like, it's very obvious that that You still have your key? Yeah. Good. Because I lost mine.  

[01:17:39] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like, for that, you,   you know, it's obvious that we're using a multisig there. So, you know, if we had a new sig, they they feel like you could have said that and be like, oh my gosh. All the funds are gone. It's on a single sig.   So, like, you know, there's that nice, like, you know,   privacy aspect. And this will be like even more useful for things like off chain protocols, like lightning or liquid or DLCs where these things that, like, just basically just is it just a big multisig on chain? Can just hide now and just look like a normal user wallet. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.  

[01:18:11] Unknown:

So, again, that's far away. It could be very helpful in lightning. Mhmm. Because every   every lightning channel open is a multisig   transaction.  

[01:18:20] Unknown:

Yeah. And these are, like, Schnorr as well. So we could do things like ring signatures and stuff where instead of just saying, like, this is my output, you could give a ring signature saying this I'm one of these 10 outputs. You can figure it out. So then you have, like, even better,   like, plausible deniability. You're not just doxing exactly what channel, UTXO you own.   What else I have here? Oh, yeah. And then I went into stuff on Bitcoin Core and how it treats Taproot   or all soft forks. And then Liquid also activated Taproot, which is pretty cool, where they  

[01:18:53] Unknown:

I thought what was cool about liquid was that they activated,   Jeremy Rubin's proposal.   CTV is on there? Yeah. Because, like, no one uses liquid, so they might as well use the experimental shit that people disagree on. Right? Yeah. They got, like, more federated members than users.  

[01:19:12] Unknown:

They're up to, like, 60 now, I think.  

[01:19:16] Unknown:

But, like, that that is a perfect example. Like,   I mean, like, when people talk about liquid, they talk about, you know, the fact that they have confidential transactions built in.   But, you know, I'm good friends with Josh, the guy who runs the single best Bitcoin events or any event that exists, which would be stake.   And he added liquid support. And only a single person bought their ticket via liquid, and I knew exactly who it was because   there's a handful of them.  

[01:19:47] Unknown:

I can take a guess. I have no idea. That's funny.  

[01:19:51] Unknown:

Don't tell me.   Justin says the 2nd best event.   It's heckling.   Yeah. So they added, like,   things like off check ops checksig from Stack  

[01:20:04] Unknown:

and, like, some different hashing. But, Ben, stop reading your newsletter. Like, what what are you what should the average big as a as a Bitcoiner user, like, what   what what are we excited about for the year coming? Like, is there  

[01:20:19] Unknown:

Are there any, like, new companies that you know that may be, like, launching cool products?  

[01:20:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the company I work for, we're launching, like, some private something like it's gonna be nice where,   where we're launching, like, really, like, the ability to buy gift cards with, Lightning,   initially, and then building, like, all your banking services. So the idea is, like, have, like starting with, like, a no KYC app. There's very good privacy so you could spend your Bitcoin without being able to, like, you know, dox yourself and go to the rest of the world. Because, like, we have, like, friends in Austin, like or one of them, he doesn't even own a bank account and he just uses Bitcoin to buy everything, like, either through, like, gift cards and stuff. But, like, it's really annoying where he's, like, either, like, taking, like, a 6% cut buying a gift card on Amazon   or   or just, like, going through friends and stuff. And that's not, you know, not usable because, you know, maybe when I go, I don't have time to go buy a gift card for you, bro. So   but this where you can buy up up to a $10,000   worth of Visa gift cards a day and get stats back on it. So, like, you could really live on your Bitcoin.  

Yeah.  

[01:21:23] Unknown:

Nice much. Yeah. I mean, I I that'd be fucking fire, but   just on the record, don't think that's gonna last.   I mean, what's this? Davis Moon's doing it. I see, one of the Bens is in the matrix chat. Hell, yeah.  

[01:21:41] Unknown:

Ben company, TBC.  

[01:21:44] Unknown:

The Pay with Moon is what is what is Pay with Moon's offering right now?  

[01:21:49] Unknown:

With them, you can buy   Visa gift cards with lightning   or I think on chain too.   And,   it's the same, like, concept where you could just, like, you know, if you wanna check on Amazon, you just buy a Visa gift card then check out. And, you know, you're not doxing.   For 1, like, you're   banking info with your, like, your credit card, and then you can spend your actual Bitcoin.   So that's, like, the main benefit.  

[01:22:15] Unknown:

Theirs is, I mean, if you can buy $10,000   worth of   Visa gift cards   or, like, prepaid Visa credit cards, basically. Right? Yeah. Without KYC,   there's really no reason to sell on the KYC exchange unless you Yeah. Wanna panic dump your whole fucking stuff. The main problem is, like,  

[01:22:37] Unknown:

well, my my main problem is that you can only have, like, $1,000   on on a single card at at once. So, like,   if I wanted to buy, like, a brand new laptop, I couldn't use something like this unless they support, like, the purse the merchant Well, it's credit card. Multiple credit cards, and I don't I don't really see that very often if at all.  

[01:22:55] Unknown:

So, like, that's You go to, like, buy a car, and you have to bring, like, 25.  

[01:22:59] Unknown:

Yeah. They're accumulating over the  

[01:23:02] Unknown:

Right. And then they all, you know, they all expire.   Well, at least with payment moons, it expires after 60 days.   They've added some cool features where you could, like if you still have a little bit of balance on 1, you can, like or or a little bit of balance on, like, multiple, you can, like, turn   those cards into, like, a single card so you can consolidate. You you're basically, like, creating a whole new card.   So that's very, like, iffy on, like, you know, like, how are they how are they doing this? But,   they are, and, they're, you know, they're working closely with Visa to, like, make sure they're, you know, doing the right things that they're supposed to do. But,   my main problem with it is, like, it's just an extension extension for Chrome right now, and, like, you can't use it any other way.  

So I'd love to see, you know, something where I could, like, you know, load up an app or or, you know, just something that's not a Chrome extension,   to be able to to use some of these services. It's hard to use an extension privately. Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:23:55] Unknown:

Look. I just want a nice clean web app.   Just give me, like, a nice web thing, pop up a lightning invoice, let me pay for it,   and then give me the fucking card. Yeah. Exactly. But, like, companies don't like that because they like the stickiness of the extension and probably all the data collection that it brings. Right?  

[01:24:14] Unknown:

Yeah. And, you know, we've been looking at, some of the history of Pay with Moon before, and, you know, they didn't have, like, the cleanest,   track record when they originally launched with Coinbase support and, you know, some of the information they were tracking on users. So,   you know,   you know, have, you know, use VPNs and other stuff and, you know, have, like, a fresh browser instance. You know, like, I have I have, you know, a Chrome for just for like, I don't even use it. But I use it just for pay with me. So it has, like, literally no other information on it. And it's just it's just I just have that extension just for pay with me. But like a dedicated browser.   Exactly. Yeah.  

It's like the only way to privately use an app. Yeah. At least semi privately. When you could probably I could figure out how to reverse engineer their APIs and, like, use it anyways, but,   haven't gotten there yet.  

[01:25:03] Unknown:

Well, we'll have a website. You could just go through a tour exit node and used   with an anonymous account.  

[01:25:10] Unknown:

Perfect.  

[01:25:11] Unknown:

And  

[01:25:13] Unknown:

freaks in the comments. I mean, tell us what you're excited about. I'm kinda curious.   Tony, I mean, a lot of a lot of people seem pretty excited about Impervious Browser. Should they be excited about Impervious? I'm excited about it.  

[01:25:27] Unknown:

Yeah. We'll be we'll be launching a browser   around the yeah. We're planning on Bitcoin 22. I mean, Bitcoin 22 by itself is, like, something to be excited about. But, yeah, planning on launching our browser,   around that time. So it's been   a it's been a lot of hard work. You and everyone else is trying to launch things for the comp. I know. Like, I'm I I probably shouldn't be, like, spending so much time sitting on a podcast. I should be coding. But,   but, yeah, there's there's there's just been a lot of,   a lot of crazy ideas that we've had over the last, like, you know, since since I joined last year. And,   you know, I'm really, really looking forward to kind of just seeing, like, the vision of the whole, like, decentralized peer to peer web, like, take place   just to just to see if it you know, if we can actually bring this to for, for for for   bring it to bring it to to the market and see.  

Don't worry. I don't know. Fruition. I'm fruition. There you go. Thank you. I'm a few drinks in. But,   just trying to see if, you know, we can we can bring, like, this whole, like, peer to peer and then, you know,   you know, use the whole Bitcoin Lightning Network as part of it.  

[01:26:35] Unknown:

So how does   Google Docs the Google Docs work?  

[01:26:39] Unknown:

You're just gonna have to find out. But Like Google Docs without Google? What was it? Google Docs without Google? I think it was something like that.   Right. I mean, a lot of that is, like, instead of just going PayPal without PayPal. Right. Like, instead of using these these third parties, like, you're you're communicating,   like, especially, like, on the Google Docs part, like, you know, you know, being able to collaborate on documents, like, having that without Google servers. Like, you, you know, you can do peer to peer   collaborative editing. Like, you know, so that way, like, our docs like, we had this problem, like, a few few months ago. We were, like, trying to, like, come up with, like, ideas about how to, like, you know, to do this one privacy project we wanted to do. And we're like, how do we collaborate on this document? Like, what's the most privacy Yeah. Privacy way privacy preserving way to do it? And,   you know, we gave up and use GitHub. We just use GitHub anyways. You know, but,   you know, things along those lines. So, like, it's not just, you know, Google Docs or your Zoom that that we wanna enable. Like, the whole idea that we're instead of going to, you know, centralized third parties for not only our identity, but also all the services we use. Like, we can do a lot of that in a peer to peer way.  



[01:27:47] Unknown:

So that's kind of, like, the vision that we're we're kinda going for. And then there was, like, a little bit of controversy about the fact that  

[01:27:57] Unknown:

Impervious is not open source yet. Right. Well, we haven't launched yet. So Yeah. Yeah. Will you be? Yeah. We will. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Will, like, source viewable or false?   I don't think, I don't think we've announced, what, like, a license or that we'll be using yet, but,   yeah, it definitely will be open source. I mean, no one's gonna run a browser unless it's open source. Right? Like, that would be that would be idiotic. So As in source views viewable. At at at, you know, at the very least. Right? Like, at the very least, it at least needs to be that. But, you know, I'm I'm,  

[01:28:29] Unknown:

you know, we'll tell you. Think? Do you think we should be calling,   do you think we should be calling things open source if they're source viewable, or is should that distinction be made as open source is a non restricted license and source viewable is a restricted  

[01:28:43] Unknown:

I think it's Viewable license. Sources, you can view the code. Free open sources, you can view and edit the code.  

[01:28:49] Unknown:

That's my opinion. That's what I always operated under, but  

[01:28:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I've been swayed a bit. I I think we should just say fuck it to all the licenses and just say, like, if the source code's out there, just fucking use it. Like, I think I think we're   I don't know. I think licenses need to go. I think like information wants to be free. Like, if the code is out there, even if it doesn't like if if something doesn't have a license at all, it's like the most restrictive ever. Like, I don't even think you can look at it. Like, it's just like, it's just it's just default. So like, no one can use this like, and if someone doesn't have a license and someone else, like, collaborates and merges some code into it, then it's like you can't even use it because you just added someone's code that doesn't have a license. And it's just the worst thing that there possibly could be.   But so I think we just say, you know, fuck it to licenses. Like, if code is out there, like, just fucking run it.  

But, that's just my my own opinion there. Does that mean impervious is Look at source? Look at that matrix notification.  

[01:29:42] Unknown:

Spook changed their avatar, changed their name, and left.  

[01:29:47] Unknown:

It's perfect.   I mean, we probably have spooks in this room right now. I'm I wanna have,  

[01:29:56] Unknown:

I'm, like, pretty involved in the programming for the open source stage at Bitcoin 2022, and I wanna   have   a I wanna have a license debate on stage.   Yeah. So all the hardware wallets get on stage. Like, a thousand people in the audience, and just everyone just argues over   over software licenses.   It's like a boxing match afterwards or something. Or we can put them in a ring or a cage or something.  

[01:30:23] Unknown:

Yeah. No.   Yeah. That that whole   I don't know if we wanna get into that at all, but the whole thing with cold card and Let's get into it. Session. Alright. Like Since you guys aren't really excited about anything coming up this year.   Pretty excited about about about a lot of things, but,   I don't know. Like, I I don't know. I I think it was, like, Citadel dispatch episode, like, 2 or something with, with with Paul Miller talking about   licenses.   Paul. Yeah. No. That was that was a good one.   But I don't know. I think I think the   there's no easy way to go about it. I mean, even when you look into the The node 1 was a really good license to be. Yes. Love that even though, you know, the one of the most contentious   node licenses   didn't didn't join that conversation.  



[01:31:08] Unknown:

Yeah. But star 9 has a similar license to them. Right.  

[01:31:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. And they were there. That was a good mad holler. Like, the more I look into, like, the whole g b g p v,   l 3 or GPLv3.   Sorry. I can't even say it right.   The more I look into that, the more I'm the more I'm just like, you know, you you you I like gplv3. 3. Right. But even you as the author yourself, like, you you, like, restrict what even you do. Talk about let's talk about Right. So what GPL v 3 is. So you have  

[01:31:39] Unknown:

you have the crown jewel of open licenses is the MIT license,   which is what Bitcoin Core uses,   which is what BlueWallet uses.   Bunch of projects use it.   That means you can do anything you fucking want with the code.   Right?   Then you have GPLv3,   which says that any derivative works. You can do anything with the code, but any derivative works you do with it need to also be GPLv3.   They have to maintain   the the license of the code they borrowed.   And then you have, like, a whole smattering of restrictive licenses that dictate all these different things. You can't use it commercially. You can't modify it at all. Bunch of different variations   from that point on. Now you want me to give you so the the argument you're you just made the argument against GPLv3.  

Well You wanna make the argue make the argument against GPLv3,  

[01:32:33] Unknown:

and then I will make the argument for GPLv3. Well, one of the things that did happen, you know, I think all licenses should go away.   One of the things that did end up happening is, like, you know, MVK wanted to change his license away from from GPO, and,   he so, you know, if there was a contributor on a certain file, he actually, like, needs to get permission from all the authors to be able to do that. So,  

[01:32:59] Unknown:

like, he doesn't But he changed he changed it going forward,   not the not the historical  

[01:33:05] Unknown:

code base. You can't change it after the fact. From what I've read, he does not have the permission to change that code base or even going forward without   without   the authors all the authors that contributed   from from what I read. Like, so like, because he just took he just took GPL code,   and   he licensed it under a different license.  

[01:33:29] Unknown:

The new code, not the old code.  

[01:33:31] Unknown:

But it it was derived from the old code. He just, you can imagine if he just did a whole complete hard fork and then made a new license.   You know, if you think That kinda makes sense to me. Right. So he took GPL v 3 because the whole point of GPL v 3 is that He took GPL v 3 code.   I will not say that right.   And which was, you know, quote, unquote, his. Called GPL going forward.   Quote, unquote, his. And then he turned around and took that code and and and, you know, had a more And the whole reason this happened was because another project  

[01:34:03] Unknown:

came out,   after   after   NVK and his partner,   Peter, spent all these years building out this hardware wallet, best in class hardware wallet, everyone loved it,   Another company came out and just took the exact same code base. They were like, we're just gonna make different hardware,   but we're gonna use the same code base, and then raised a bunch of VC money   off of that pre product without even releasing anything.   I mean, now they've released something, but they at that point, they didn't.   And that was a,   panic's the wrong word, but that was a  

[01:34:47] Unknown:

Reaction?  

[01:34:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, a a quick reaction to that.   I would say it was a bad reaction. I've been pretty consistent about that. Even when MBK is on the show, MBK is a friend.   Like, I think he should've just taken the high road. We have the better wallet, just kept his license as is. That's a whole different argument than whether or not he's allowed to change his license. Right. Okay. So you wanna hear my argument Yeah. For   GPL v 3 over MIT? Yeah. Because this is something that people so I had SeedSigner on the show,   when SeedSigner was a very little project, and now,   they've grown into quite a big community, which is awesome to see. I fucking love SeedSigner.  

I love what they're doing over there in terms of building, like,   a open source hardware wallet with off the shelf parts.   He had to figure out what license he was gonna use, and he had a bunch of people screaming in his ear, and he chose MIT.   And he was on air right before he chose the license,   with me on dispatch, and I told him to do GPLv3.   And the reason is   is because if you do the MIT license,   like, Apple can come in and just make they could take everything from seed signer,   add a few cherries on top,   make it all closed source,   literally the exact opposite of contributing everything back, just not even open the code,   And they could be like, this is the Apple Bitcoin wallet.  

And they can just take all of that and not make it open source. But if it's GPLv3,   then if they take that code, they're legally required   to keep   their derivative work   as   GPLv3.   So I see a situation   where   a lot of our Bitcoin, our favorite Bitcoin open source projects, are gonna basically get   they're gonna get picked off 1 by 1 and combined into larger tech projects run by, like, all these, you know,   massive tech companies.   And I have I'm not gonna name names, but, like, I've seen some oh, gee. I we have Paul and the our good friend Paul in the comments   telling me I'm wrong and dumb.  

We've had this argument many times.   There are   some there are some,   providers of open source grants that will not give open source grants to GPLv3. They ask for you to change it to MIT.   Mhmm.   Because I'm pretty sure   if if it's GPL,   you can go to MIT, but you can't go   from GPL to more closed. You can go to more open.   And they've asked projects   to go to MIT   Mhmm. To receive the grant funding. And why would they do that unless they wanted to   have, you know, just go to town with that code?  

[01:37:39] Unknown:

Right. It does, like, incentivize you to go back and contribute, though, like, I guess either way. But, like,   so, like, at the Bitcoin company, like, we're we're using Bitcoin s in the back end, which is a Scala library in Bitcoin.   And that's, has an MIT license. So those GPL 3, we'd have to open source our back end code, which obviously don't wanna do. So, like, you know, but because that we use Bitcoin s in the back end, I go back and contribute to the projects all the time to add things I need. So, like, you know, there are incentives there where, like, you know, if this is, like, GPL 3, now you literally can't use this in our closed source back end and stuff like that. Right. I think it goes back to, like, what's your what's your motive behind whatever project it is that you're trying to or even just your philosophy of life. Right? Like, here we are. BTC pay servers, MIT.  

[01:38:26] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:38:27] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. Now So that means that means that means,   going back to, like, Benson Aero, that means, like, Tesla could use it in their back end. And, like, Tesla was actually trying to plan on, like they were doing audits on it, and then they eventually But they could still use   it if it was GPLv3. They would just have to They would have to open source their whole, like, purchasing system that they use it. Well, if they if they use BTCPay for for the the portions of the open source code they use would have to be open source. Okay. Well, they would probably just end up using something like, you know, Stripe in the end. Right? But there's but what happens if  

[01:38:58] Unknown:

there's there's a clear scenario where, like, Stripe comes out   with just a closed source version of BTC pay server with a few cherries on top Right. And then dominates the market,   and it does more payment processing than BTC pay does. I I think I think it goes back to, like, people And doesn't actually fund the developers. They don't actually even go and fund the developers that are building BTC pay server. They're just a leech on that system.  

[01:39:24] Unknown:

I I I think once information is out there, information is out there. And I don't think a license, like, put on top. I don't think this government enforced code, it should be a thing. I think, like, I think IP is bullshit. I think government I agree with that. Code and licenses is bullshit. If you write code and you publish it on the Internet somewhere, it is out there for anyone to use at any time,   end of story. So, like, this whole, like, license debate. Like, I like to theorize about some things, but, like, the fact that, like, NVK, like, can't just switch GPL. You know? Well, he did, but, you know, there's some legality. But that's all bullshit anyway. Right. Like, I think I think it's all bullshit. I think information's out there, and I don't like, if you're trying to, like, be restrictive on code, then I think I think it's bullshit. And like to be fair, like, sure, I run it. I work at a company and will probably have a license on it, whatever. But like, I think my own philosophy in life is just like if code is out there codes out there like, yeah. You're just saying all this and the purpose is about to release a source of people to buy it. Well, I don't know what The highly restricted license. You know, we don't know what their license is gonna be yet. It's not it's not out there, but so don't say it's gonna be a highly restrictive license. But,  

[01:40:29] Unknown:

Prove me wrong, Tony. Prove me wrong.  

[01:40:32] Unknown:

But,   you know, I don't   know. I don't I don't have a I don't have a you know, if I'm doing something on my own self, like, I, you know, I hope to license is just like, hey. I don't know. I would love to submit code and be like, you know, there's no license. If you want if you wanna use this code, like, you know, don't worry about the law. Like like, be on that. Stuff like that. Right? Well, I mean, MIT kinda fits that bill, but also, like, unlicensed. Right? Or I'm you're literally, like, you're writing paragraphs of legal code when or sorry, legal legal paragraph. Like, copy and paste the MIT license. Right. But you're you're It's control c, control v or whatever. I know. But, like, you're you're stating something, and I think, like, the whole idea of information should be free. Like, that's it's it's free. It's out there. Like, source viewable or not. Like, the information is free. Go go fucking use it. Who cares what the government thinks? To be fair, like, if you had, like, say, like, something like cold card, it's, like, source viewable.  

[01:41:21] Unknown:

If you, like, just went and implement that in your closed source back end, like,   they're probably never gonna know. No one know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it'd have to like, either get leaked online or, like, some lawyers starts looking through the code and throws a hissy fit. But, like, reality, that that doesn't happen. Like, even, like I think it was on Twitter last week.   Rodolfo was like,   saying Foundation stole some of their   their non open source code. And   I was like, well, okay. And what are you gonna do? Like, get lawyers involved? Like, this is gonna be more of a headache than it's worth.  

[01:41:50] Unknown:

So Stealing code. That's what we're talking about. Stealing code that was published on the Internet. That's what we're talking about here. Like, this it's all it's all bullshit. Like The other interesting thing in this  

[01:42:01] Unknown:

debate or whatever is,   there's actually precedent in the Bitcoin hardware wallet space because Eric Voorhees   took treasure code and made the keep key.   Mhmm. And I   and the treasure guys never closed their code   over it. And, but I think they thought about it. There was, like, a whole back and forth about it. And, like, you hear it a lot. Like, exodus,   isn't even source viewable.   A lot of people use Exodus,   and their argument on their website   in the FAQ section   is, if we make it source viewable,   there'll be copycats   that trick our users and steal their funds or whatever.  



[01:42:45] Unknown:

I just I mean, it does happen. I know, like, you know, lots of wallets get, like, or like, Wasabi had like 1,000 on, like, Google hits of us, like, changing the a's like an a with an asterisk. And then you download, it looks like it and steals your money. Like, it is possible, but, you know, yeah, fuck that. Like What they call the light they have, like, a light coin fork of it that was called mustard wallet, I think, or something. Yeah. Mustard wallet.  

[01:43:09] Unknown:

I don't know. Like, if you're just, like I don't know. I think the honest is on the users there. Like, they should just, you know, make sure that they're installing the right thing correctly. Right? Like, like, we're Bitcoiners. Right? We're supposed to be, like, you know, fuck the law. Fuck what the government says. Right? And here we are, like, suing each other and saying this is this license and that license and this legal text and that legal text. It's all   it's all a bunch of bullshit.   I'm gonna fork impervious and call it pervious browser. Do what you want, man. I I I personally will not sue you. I'll tell   you   that.  

But yeah.  

[01:43:43] Unknown:

Well, that was a really good discussion to have. I'm glad we had that. I still think GPO v three is the best license.  

[01:43:51] Unknown:

You guys start writing some code and then But it it no. It  

[01:43:54] Unknown:

yeah. Right. That's true. It it matters what the project is. Right? Like, obviously, for something like Bitcoin Core, it should be MIT. It should be as free as possible. Right?   But I'm torn on whether or not something like BTC pay server should be MIT.  

[01:44:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm glad Vivek found that funny. Yeah. Do you wanna know my license and what it would be? And Justin found it funny too. That's his contribution to the chat. I hope people can hear him laughing in the background.  

[01:44:21] Unknown:

It is your award champ? Yeah. So,  

[01:44:24] Unknown:

if I had a you know, I'm gonna start applying this license   on a lot of things. But,  

[01:44:29] Unknown:

It's your new license. Right? It's my new license.  

[01:44:33] Unknown:

May you do good and not evil. May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others. May you share freely, never taking more than you give. Assume nothing works, and you may be pleasantly surprised. And when it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.   It's   a lot of inspiration from, like, you know, SQL,   you know, principles a while back. Feel like there's a lot of legal holes in your fucking go good. Like, it's like sort of a sort of a middle ground between,   you know, I'm not gonna, like, legally, like, say something. Right? But I'm just like, hey. You know?   Use this if you want. It's probably it probably doesn't work anyways, so who cares?  



[01:45:09] Unknown:

I love it. Well, I mean, I I'll say one thing. I do love the passion about all of it. That's great.   Yeah.   I don't know.   Vivek Vivek thinks your,   your life is poetic as fuck. Thank you. Bye bye.   So do you guys have anything else you wanna talk about?   What are you thinking?   We're at the hour and 45 minute mark.   Our comments are just   Vivek now and Paul.   Well Uh-huh. I don't know. Vivek is hopefully giving us some feedback on what we should talk about next.  

[01:46:00] Unknown:

What are you positive about?  

[01:46:04] Unknown:

I mean, I I I think   I think our   it is it is extremely   it is extremely awesome   that, we're seeing so many new open source projects, like, in the Bitcoin tangential space.   You know, I just spent,   like, the last 2 months trying to come up with like, set up this program for Bitcoin 2022   for   giving tickets to open source contributors. And, obviously,   we've been working on open sets to fund open source contributors for the last year.   So I've, like, been very focused on, like, watching all these projects develop, and it's pretty fucking remarkable. It's it's,   I feel like that's really what gives Bitcoin its robustness,   right, is that you have all these open source contributors around the world,   and that even even that you can, like, have a list of 32 projects   that   that aren't garbage,   that are the exact opposite of garbage, right, that are promising, that are building, that are making progress every day   is, like, fucking remarkable. Like, that is crazy, all related to Bitcoin. And I think one of the bigger two things, it's not just, like, 1 guy building a lot of these. They're, like, the team of, like, 8 people that build this, like, product. Yeah. Or even even more. Like, you have, like you'll you'll have, like, random projects with, like, 45 contributors, and they have no idea who each other is,   and they're not getting paid for it.  

That is fucking powerful.   Vivek wants me to ask you about Vortex. What is Vortex? Oh, god.  

[01:47:48] Unknown:

Vortex is a lightning coin joint thing I built that I haven't released yet.  

[01:47:53] Unknown:

Oh, that's cool. Why don't you tell us about that?  

[01:47:56] Unknown:

So the idea is to be able to open a lightning channel inside of a coin joint.   And,   I don't know, I built it from the ground up, and it it's, it links into   c lightning and lnd.   So the idea is, like, you know, in a perfect world, you can   you want every spend as a coin join. And today, there's no open channels in the coin join. So this was like my attempt at doing that.   I've I've done it on reg test, so it works. But   I, like, hacked it together and it needs a lot of work still where,   so, like, the the way it works now is you just, like,   you just, like, immediately open in a coin join. So there's no, like, remixing or anything.  

So you could very easily dox yourself by, like, opening a channel in a coin join and with your change output. It's like opening another channel and just, you know, you're   linking yourself to what she did like, what's change output was yours   and stuff like that. So the I, I need to work on it more where it it lets you, like, kinda like what samurai does today where you can just enter in the remixing pool, remix a 1000 times,   and then open a coin join from there. So your your change is much more, far links from your Open a channel from there. Yeah. Yeah.   So then your change is much more like far links from your actual channel. And,   that's the idea.  

It's,   if anyone wants to finish it, that'd be great because I have no time anymore. What is the license? It's MIT. There you go. I do MIT on everything. I have a question for you guys. Is GPL v 3 an open source license?  

[01:49:24] Unknown:

Is the license open source? Is it an open like, in the debate in the debate of is it a false license?  

[01:49:31] Unknown:

Yeah. You're not you're not free to do whatever you want with it.   There are there are restrictions on what you can do. So,  

[01:49:40] Unknown:

I mean, free in what sense? I don't know. I think I'd say it's fast because you can go in and, like, copy and distribute it. But,  

[01:49:49] Unknown:

oh, that's, like, my interpretation. You can modify it. You can distribute it. Yeah.  

[01:49:54] Unknown:

I don't know. Free is free, man. That doesn't seem very free if I have restrictions.  

[01:50:00] Unknown:

That's fair enough. I I kind of I feel that argument.  

[01:50:06] Unknown:

But this this project seems that will you be able to do, like, channel closures in as a coin join too? No. I don't know. Does LND support, like I don't think they do. Anything from IP? I know you can I know you can close it? Like, you do a co co op close into, like, your own address, like, a new address. Yeah. Like, it doesn't have to be your lightning node address, but I don't know if you can do anything, like, super advanced. Does LND even have coin control yet? Yeah. Mhmm. LND and c lightning do eclair. It doesn't  

[01:50:35] Unknown:

that's why I don't have a clear support. But, like, it's like the way you support it is like you do like a open a channel through a PSVT. So it's like you kind of have to hack together   like coin control, which is really hard. But yeah.  

[01:50:49] Unknown:

I think this is dope. At least like Yeah. We need more of this. We we need more of this. I mean, yeah. Lightning users will shoot themselves in the foot if they can't, like, you know, actually, like, go through the Me and Tony spent, like, 2 hours of talking about Lightning privacy, and the conclusion was, like, you just do a single coin join UTXO. You open up a single channel, and you use the channel, and then you fucking close the node and start fresh again. Yeah. Yeah. My like, my goal with this is like Which is so broken. It's terrible.  

[01:51:14] Unknown:

Like, my goal with this is, like, everyone, like, you know, after this last, like, 6 months, everyone's on ClubNet now and has an umbrill that's like always on in their closet.   And so ideally, like if we have these nodes that are always on, they should just be coin joining always.   And then when you want to open a channel, you just open a channel and the coin join as well. So like that's the end goal. But,   you know, I'd have to work on it more. I need to find time. But yeah.   So you were you gonna publish it to the Umbrel app store? Yeah. That was the that was the goal for, like, on Umbrel and start 9 and, RAS Pipelits. And then also, like, a daemon that you can run locally   if you don't use any of those. But   yeah. If anyone well, there's not many Scala devs in Bitcoin. No. I don't work on it. Scala? Come on. You can't work with us on me. Chris, are you out there? Yeah.  



[01:51:59] Unknown:

The other Scala dev?  

[01:52:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   Umbrel has a very restrictive license.  

[01:52:08] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:52:09] Unknown:

I do like the idea of the App Store, though. I think that's that's a really good idea. Making it easy for users to, like, install apps on their notes. The App Store model is a cool model. Yeah.  

[01:52:18] Unknown:

The problem is like the centralized control of the App Store model. Right?  

[01:52:22] Unknown:

Yeah. It's very weird where you just, like, you just give them, like, a Docker container, and then they just do the next release of Umbrel has that image. So, like I think star 9 has, like, a good approach where, like, you can import any,  

[01:52:34] Unknown:

quote, unquote, store URL that you want so that, you know, I could host 1. You could you could host It's like Android. Yeah. Repositories on Android. Where, like, you can have  

[01:52:43] Unknown:

like, theoretically, Google doesn't stop you from having other app stores on your Android phone,  

[01:52:48] Unknown:

but 99% of people are still gonna use the Play Store. Or like Linux too where you add your own like, someone else's repository, and you can get their app that's on only their repository.  

[01:53:00] Unknown:

Right. Okay. Awesome.   Ortex sounds freaking awesome.   We have someone mentioning Fulcrum. Did you see Fulcrum?   That's something that's cool. So that so Craig of Sparrow has been doing all these performance tests, and Fulcrum is a different Electrum server.   It blows Electromax and Electris out of the water in terms of performance, especially on   single board computers like ResPods or RockPros or something.   The project is funded by BCash,  

[01:53:35] Unknown:

though. Oh, I didn't know that. That's so that was the first one. It's, like, funded by a BCash company. It's, like, pays the developer salary. Is it free and open source license, though?  

[01:53:45] Unknown:

I don't know what the license is.   And I don't know what the definition of free and open source is. No. I think   I've hopefully, it's MIT license,  

[01:53:57] Unknown:

but we'll see. Yeah. I I I remember reading that. I think Craig wouldn't fuck with it if it was I think he would've mentioned it already, but I should've checked myself, and I haven't. It was a little weird that, like, that was I haven't heard of it or anything. That was the first time I heard of it, and it was, like, a big show for Fulcrum. Like, here's all the analysis, and then, okay, Fulcrum's the winner. It's like, oh, what is what is Fulcrum?  

[01:54:16] Unknown:

So it was kinda crazy. But did you see, like, the performance difference? It was, like, fucking crazy. It was,   8 x and, like, the worst. Oh. There was initial load. Fulcrum is 22 times faster than Electromax,   300 times faster than Electris. Most most of these, like, full node implementation boxes or whatever using Electris.   300 times faster than Electris on initial load. Wallet refresh, 8 times faster than Electromax, 1 and a half times faster than Electris.   That's pretty impressive. It's GPL license according to Paul. There you go.   Throw it in the trash. So it may or may not be open source depending on your definition.  



[01:54:54] Unknown:

But that's that's   that's pretty legit. And I think it said only, like, a 100 gigabytes of storage needed, so, like, that's not that's not too far fetched.   There are some implementations that are, like, 800   to almost, like, a terabyte.  

[01:55:07] Unknown:

Really? Yeah.  

[01:55:08] Unknown:

I think the,   elect yeah. One of them that's, like, meant for, like, more   more business use cases. It's, like, 800, but,   seems pretty impressive. I I haven't used too much of those   myself, but  

[01:55:24] Unknown:

it's pretty nice. Well, because it's interesting. Right? Because   I feel like a lot of the pain points,   that we're gonna hit in Bitcoin that we like, the one of the beauties of, like, an open system like Bitcoin is, like, I feel like as you hit pain points,   the underlying system becomes more robust because you fix based on those pain points, but you need to hit the pain points first.   And, obviously, in Bitcoin land, there's been a very much of a   buy and hold mentality rather than   spend it or earn it.   And on top of that, of those who do spend and earn, a lot of them use centralized services. Right?   So the whole reason Craig is even exploring this is because in Sparrow, he added Whirlpool.  

And when you add Whirlpool,   all of a sudden, your wallet gets very heavy. You use a lot of UTXOs.   Right? And you go really deep into those addresses,   and the Electrum servers were buckling.   But, like, people weren't using their own Electrum servers   with heavy wallet use   until they integrated.   Right? It wasn't it wasn't a pain point that was immediately obvious until people started, you know, actually   using Bitcoin hardcore in that respect.   And now he needs to go and he basically got a bunch of support requests that people's electrum servers are, like, stalling when they were trying to go   deep in these   in these address steps. I think too because,  

[01:56:51] Unknown:

SamRite did like, they they heavily check against the address reuse. So   I I know the coordinator checks, like, for that. I don't know if the wall actually checks. But if you need to check, like, all your peers' like addresses if they've been used before, that's a ton of extra data too that you need to, like, quickly look up. So, yeah, it's very important. I'm pretty sure the coordinator enforces it Yeah. For what it's worth. But Right. So if everyone's,  

[01:57:14] Unknown:

Electrum, like, servers on their own Raspberry Pi are, like, going down, then they're like are they, like, switching off to, like, someone else's Electrum server? And then and then Well, no. That's the beauty the beauty of Sparrow is  

[01:57:26] Unknown:

I mean, you can just it's very it's very clean. With Electrum   with base Electrum, it it was, like, kind of easy to accidentally dox yourself to public Electrum servers.   But with Sparrow, like, he made it so it's just, like,   from start up, you can say only connect to my Electrum server, and it just will never fall back. Okay. Good.   But then their wallet doesn't load. Yeah. Right.   But at least you don't have the privacy gotcha necessarily.   Yeah. And I I expect to start to see, like, this kind of situation happen in terms of Bitcoin circular economy   because of stuff like El Salvador. Like, all of a sudden, you'd put 6,000,000 people   with a proper circular economy,   that instead of government restricted, it's government mandated.  

And all of a sudden, you start to see real world examples of pain points and enlightening and spending Bitcoin and receiving Bitcoin and stuff that can be resolved, but they need to be exposed first. Right?  

[01:58:23] Unknown:

Right. And then and then there's also, like, a a privacy argument there too. Like, their number one concern may not be, privacy. It's to save themselves from the collapse of the US dollar from a from another nation. Right? From a developing nation. Or they just don't even have the resources to, like, do it or, like, if they wanna run run their own electric server, that's like you're saying, like, it's 6, 700 gigabytes. Like, that's a whole lot of data and a lot of, like, space that they might not be able to maintain.   So,   you know, it's trade offs they have to make.  



[01:58:56] Unknown:

Yeah. And just bandwidth requirements.   Yeah. And then and then and then if it's down, it's like, okay. Well, now my wallet doesn't work. Like, I gotta go Yeah. I mean, he's using Ben's using his own node for the op return bot, and fucking it went down, and now the service doesn't work.  

[01:59:12] Unknown:

Wait a wait a docs at his nose. Yeah. I'm gonna get bro. People are gonna try to don't, you know, try to force close on him now.  

[01:59:20] Unknown:

Uh-uh. Please don't.  

[01:59:22] Unknown:

He's got a large shower.  

[01:59:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Hopefully.  

[01:59:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.   We're hitting the 2 hour point.   I like to wrap it up around here. Before we wrap it up,   first of all, thank you guys for joining me with this for this conversation.   You're obviously both better men than Justin Moon. Yeah. Who's He could still come up and talk if he's literally sitting. You wanna say hi? Don't say hi. Work, and then you just sit there sat there the whole time. Wave heckling. He's waving he's waving at us, so you're you're both better men than him. So thank you for joining us.   Let's wrap up with some final thoughts. Final thoughts, Ben.  



[02:00:06] Unknown:

AOPPP   isn't the worst thing. We need to focus on real privacy,   like KYC stuff and, coin joining,   and the future is bright.  

[02:00:17] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Thanks. Thanks, Ben. Yeah. Thanks for Final thoughts,   Tony.  

[02:00:23] Unknown:

Thanks for having me, Matt. Always always a pleasure.   Always great to be talking with Ben too.   I don't know that the, you know, the the future is bright. Like, you know, take control of your own coins, you know, contribute to the local economy of Bitcoiners.   You know, get off get off, get off KYC services, and, I don't know. Enjoy life.  

[02:00:44] Unknown:

Thank you, guys.   Thanks to the freaks who joined us. Thanks to the freaks who continue to support us. Reminder, you can go to ciel dispatch.com   to send stats to support the show. It is really appreciated. I do wanna keep it ad free and sponsor free. I think part of the issue with the whole KYC debate is that   the KYC companies   regulated companies spend the most money on   sponsorships   regardless of whether it's podcasts or other content in this space, events, stuff like that,   and it's kind of insidious. It is very insidious,   and I would like us to, as a community, start to move to a value for value audience funded model,   and dispatch is   mission focused on trying to prove that out and trying to model itself out of open source projects even if Ben   wants to come at me about   not being a programmer.  

I am trying to model this project   after what open source devs have to deal with, which is not direct monetization schemes and support from the audience. And, obviously, lots of focus on actually actively supporting open source development.   So dispatch.com   to support the show,   podcasting 2 point o,   download an app, search dispatch,   load it up with sets,   and, sidildispatch.com/stack   if you want merch,   if you prefer supporting the show that way.   With all that said, I love you, freaks. Thank you, guests. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Tony. Appreciate you all. See you next week. Talk Justin in. Yeah.  

[02:02:50] Unknown:

Wait till I   told god I'll be back in a second. Man, it's so hard not to act reckless.   To whom much is given, much is tested. Get arrested, guess until he get the message.   I feel the pressure   under more scrutiny.   And what I do, act more stupidly.   Bought more jewelry,   more Louis V. My mama couldn't get through to me.   The drama, people suing me. I'm on TV talking like it's just you and me.   I'm just saying how I feel, man. I ain't one of the Cosby's. I ain't go to heel, man.   I guess the money should've changed them. I guess I should've forget where I came from.   Excuse me. Is you saying something?  

Uh-uh. You can't tell me nothing.   You can't tell me nothing.   Already graduated,   and you can live through anything   if magic made it.   They say I talk with so much emphasis.   Oh, they so sensitive.   They'll never fix your lips like collagen to say something where you're gonna end up polishing.   Let me know if it's a problem then.   Aight man hollering.   Excuse me. Was   pressure,   what show pleasure?   Life is a up depending on how you dress her. So if the devil wear Prada, Adam, Eve wear nada, I'm in between but way more fresher.   But way less effort   because when you try hard, it's when you die hard.  

Your homies looking like why god when they reminisce over you, my god.   Would you like getting my   Excuse me. Was you saying something? Uh-uh. You can't tell me nothing.   You can't tell me nothing.   Uh-uh. You can't tell me nothing.  

[02:07:26] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. I'll see you for Bitcoin Tuesday on Tuesday because it's called Bitcoin Tuesday, and, I'll see you for a rabbit hole recap on Thursday.   Love you all. Stay humble, sex sets.