Citadel Dispatch

Share on social media:

EPISODE: 51

BLOCK: 719340

PRICE: 2358 sats per dollar

TOPICS: tradeoffs of kyc bitcoin, bitcoin companies keeping lists of bitcoiners and our transaction history, acquiring bitcoin without providing intimate personal information, personal responsibility 

@BTCxZelko: https://twitter.com/BTCxZelko

@LaserHodl: https://twitter.com/LaserHodl

@Diverter_NoKYC: https://twitter.com/Diverter_NoKYC

@stephanlivera: https://twitter.com/stephanlivera

streamed live every tuesday:  

https://citadeldispatch.com

twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch

bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos

podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch
 

telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch
 

support the show: https://citadeldispatch.com/contribute

stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/

join the chat: http://citadel.chat/

[00:00:00] Unknown:

Love Bitcoin ever wondered? Well, it's because they know they're excluded from the country's traditional systems of wealth creation.   America's economy is closed to them. The ladder has been pulled up and they know it.   Our elderly political class should care about this. They don't care at all.   Here's 68 year old Paul Krugman explaining on Twitter that growing inflation is not a big deal. Quote, is there any good reason to believe that inflation hits low income households especially hard, end quote? Well, yes, Paul. There are in fact quite a few good reasons to think that. Like, look around, Dumbo,   but he hasn't and he won't. Keep in mind, this man once won the Nobel Prize for Economics.  

So we're mocking Paul Krugman, but imagine   what he sounds like to young people. Imagine how this sounds to a 30 year old, someone still living with roommates, someone who's too poor to get married, too poor to have kids, too poor to start an adult life.   There are many young Americans in that position.   If you wanted to set the stage for a revolution, this is exactly the kind of way you would talk, and it's exactly the kind of society you would create. It is deeply unwise.  

[00:01:39] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy O'Dell here for Citadel dispatch 51.   Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.   To ring in the new year,   we got some we got 2 big changes that I wanna let you guys know about ahead of time.   The first one is this will be the last,   dispatch   that is available on the TFTC   podcast feed. So if you're listening to this on the TFTC podcast feed,   open up your podcast app, search little dispatch, and press subscribe because that's the only way you will be able to get dispatches going forward. I have a very good lineup   over the next few weeks,   that I'm very excited,   to share with you guys. Some very good discussions are gonna happen.  

The second major change is I have moved the audience chat over to Matrix, a distributed self hosted,   free and open source   chat solution,   that is federated, so you can run your own server, you can connect to our server,   you can use whatever server you want, and you can communicate that way.   That chat is located at citadel.chat.   So if you wanna participate in the live audience conversation going forward, you're gonna wanna go to citadel.chat.   If you're gonna wanna listen to the podcast feeds going forward, you're gonna have to search CITL dispatch   in your favorite podcast app.  

If you are commenting through YouTube, Twitter, or Twitch,   I can see your comments still.   So I will   highlight   key comments, but the main chat is gonna be, in in matrix on sidolil.chat.   Huge shout out to our supporters.   Dispatch is a 100%   audience funded.   You guys make it possible to keep Dispatch ad free without sponsors and purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussions, so cheers to you. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Font Fountain Podcasts   and Breeze Wallet.  

It acts like a regular podcast app. You search Zillow Dispatch, you load it up with sats, those sats go straight to my node. You can also support the show through my samurai Pay NIM, also Sparo Wallet compatible now.   That Pay NIM is Odell   or through,   just a normal lightning payment. Both of those are available at cildispatch.com.   As always,   this show is livestreamed   through Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube, and now bitcointv.com   as well. Bitcointv.com,   we need to I need to acquire and buy   a GPU so the transcoding is better, so the quality will be slightly worse on bitcoin tv.com, but you don't have to deal with trackers,   or ads or anything like that. So,   trade offs trade offs everywhere, but I am working,   to get that GPU so the quality will be better.  

This is a   a conversation that I'm very excited to have.   We got some great guests here. This is still dispatch 51.   The topic is Bitcoin companies keeping lists of Bitcoiners in our transaction history.   It's focused on the trade offs of KYC,   AML regulations,   and how they interact with Bitcoin.   We got some return guests, and we got some new guests. I'm gonna start,   this introduction with our new guests. We have,   steamed podcast host and good friend, Stefan Lovera. Stefan, why don't you say hi to the freaks?  

[00:05:17] Unknown:

Hello, everyone, and thanks for inviting me.  

[00:05:21] Unknown:

Stefan is, he made some time zone sacrifices for us, to be here, so everyone should give him extra props. We appreciate you, Stefan.   We have   we have, Laser Huddle here.   First time on dispatch, but he has been on TFTC with Marty in the past. How's it going, Laser?  

[00:05:40] Unknown:

Hey, y'all. Big fan of yours, Odell and the dispatch, and so excited to be on. And and a lot of names on here that I followed for a long time. So this is pretty cool, and thanks for having me.  

[00:05:52] Unknown:

Cheers.   Thank you.   We have return guest, Diverter. How's it going, Diverter?  

[00:06:01] Unknown:

What's happening? Yeah. Glad to be here.  

[00:06:04] Unknown:

And we have return guest, BTC Zelco. What's up, Zelco?  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

What's going on, man?   Other than that, I'm pretty good other than the fact that it sounds like Divert is over there eating a sandwich, but, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excited to be a fun talk.  

[00:06:19] Unknown:

Awesome.   So it looks like   in the live chat that everyone's having issues with bitcoin tv.com.   What What are you gonna do? We're doing it live.   So where should we start? I was thinking maybe we should start on   what is KYC,   what is its impact on Bitcoin,   and then take it from there. Who wants to who wants to give that a shot?  

[00:06:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. I'll take a go. So KYC stands for know your customer. It relates, generally speaking, to having to give   specific identity   information   to a company or to an individual   in order   for them to be able to provide you in general   it normally is a legal obligation   given the AML, anti money laundering laws. Now, of course,   we   might not agree with those laws that we might wish,   you know, for market regulation as opposed to government   regulation, but the impact for   Bitcoin is, obviously, is that   and this is a question many of us have all spoken about and explored,   even the risk of potentially   capturing of Bitcoin, and does this mean that everyone is bagged and tagged as it were?  

Does that create a risk for the individual   if their information were to be   stolen or lost? Or potentially in the future, would that create a target on people's backs   either   from the government perspective or from a private   adversary's   perspective.   So I think there are different ways to think about it. Generally speaking, it relates to having to   provide   information about yourself, such as your passport or your driver's license,   and that's for an individual. And then, of course, companies can also be required to   KYC,   and that might require things like company formation documents and so on.  

Broadly speaking, we're talking about this idea of having to show some identity   documents.   Now in other   requirements around AML and KYC and sanctions and things like this, companies might be required, and this is normal banks, might be required to do various activities, things like transaction monitoring and so on. So I'm sure we're gonna get into a whole bunch of things like that.   So   I think   the those that's, like, the general idea, and, of course, I guess it's it's it's   theoretically, are you even in a peer to peer interaction, are you still having to provide some KYC or some in identifying information?   But, of course, the the question is around who are you KYC ing to and, how much information are you having to give? So I think that's probably  

[00:09:06] Unknown:

a, just an overall summary for people. Anyone else wanna know? I think that was a I mean, that was a pretty good summary.   Just to be clear, KYC   AML stands for know your customer   anti money laundering.  

[00:09:19] Unknown:

Right. And   and one thing, though,   KYC is used colloquially,   you know, amongst the big corners. It's just basically,   it's taken on this kinda catch all form now to where,   anything described where you've where you've provided any sort of personal information or maybe it's not completely anonymous,   then it's referred to as as KYC or it's not non KYC.   So I think it's important, especially for the purposes of this discussion, the KYC is an actual procedure. Like, there it is an actual technical procedure that you have to do. You you go through. You provide all the information and details   to a company that stored that information. So we're not talking about, like,   if you're if you're mining at home and you're not using the VPN, well, that's not non k y c. Of course, it's non KYC. It's it's not anonymous.  

It may not be, quote, unquote, perfectly private, but it's non KYC. So, that that colloquial use of the term kinda muddies the waters I feel like in a lot of the debate.  

[00:10:22] Unknown:

Yeah. And it it's probably also useful to just kind of recognize that   in a way it's an extension of the fiat system. Right? Like, if you go sign up for a bank account,   you know,   you are providing   legal documentation   as to your your legal identity.   So one way another way to think about KYC is it it it kinda starts when you get your paycheck. Like, the minute you have money in a checking account in the fiat system,   that that that monetary energy is   is be it has to be accounted for. It's tracked and it's tied to your legal identity.   And so then the question is, as you go into the Bitcoin   ecosystem, how far does that extend? And, you know,   most of the exchanges, a large degree of them,   continue that tradition. Right? They collect all this legal documentation so that the the Bitcoin that you own is tied to that same legal identity,   so that they can track from when you got paid in your career all the way through to what assets you own.  



[00:11:25] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm just gonna   quickly double down on what Diverter was saying. You know, sometimes you hear people say,   well, if you buy something from a merchant,   you know, then you're you technically   and they collected your shipping information, then that means you KYC'd yourself.   And that's that's not, like, what this is referring to. We're talking about that long term collected stored data,   that ties you down to how much Bitcoin you bought, when you bought it, and,   and then it assumes, right, that you still maintain that amount of Bitcoin. And that's kinda where I think that this whole conversation starts,   at least in my opinion.  



[00:12:03] Unknown:

So, I mean, this is why I thought it was an interesting place to start is, like, the definition of KYC.   I   in other aspects of our lives as Bitcoiners, we tend to make a point of not using   terminology   that is decided by other   entities, oftentimes, that are against Bitcoin or against privacy.   The the big one that happened recently   was when they said unhosted wallets instead of self custody. When the regulators put that in writing, they said unhosted wallets. And what were they insinuating there? They were insinuating   that   that hosted wallets were the default and unhosted wallets were the   were the rarity. Even though in Bitcoin,   it has historically been   a culture dominated by self custody.  

So   I actually think that the term KYC in general   and its attachment to this idea of anti money laundering is we're already arguing on a back foot, if you're talking about,   individual privacy and sovereignty.   So I intentionally   named the episode Bitcoin Companies Keeping Lists of Bitcoiners in Our Transaction History   because I feel like that is very clear what is happening.  

[00:13:31] Unknown:

Yeah. Not, you know, not unlike a bank. You you have these corporations that are collecting,   I you know, indent little databases of identity,   documents, and they're forced to hold those. So, you know, you're doing financial   stuff, and and so just like a bank, these exchanges are collecting that stuff.  

[00:13:51] Unknown:

Right. But, you know, my problem   for and I don't first of all, I wanna say this before we get going here because   it obviously, you know, we're   I'm the non KYC guy, and we've got the guys on here that are supposed to be the pro KYC guys, but I don't really believe these guys are one, unquote, pro KYC.   I don't think anyone here is arguing for KYC. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure nobody's arguing for KYC.   It's just a matter of whether or not it's an acceptable trade off to achieve adoption as far as I can tell. But having said that, I do wanna make this point from a philosophical standpoint. I don't wanna get on the soapbox about it, but I really do believe,   KYC is   at its heart antithetical   to Bitcoin as a whole.  

KYC is   is in its very nature an exclusionary   procedure. It it that is it's what it does. It excludes   certain people that they don't want to be able to transact from transacting or from being able to do whatever financial procedure you wanna do. It by its very nature, it it it's bound   to exclude.   Whereas   Bitcoin, by its very nature, is is supposed to be an an all inclusive or permissionless   monetary network. I mean, the the pseudonymity of Bitcoin, I mean, yeah, it helps in a privacy aspect, but really truthfully, that's that's from an inclusion standpoint. It's because anybody could be that,   arrangement of characters on a screen. That could be anybody, anywhere. So Bitcoin,   I mean, just from a philosophical standpoint, it's supposed to be this permissionless,   inclusionary   monetary network. And the fact that that KYC is being ported over from this legacy financial system and just grafted onto Bitcoin, which is supposed to be a completely different sort of financial system. It's just, I I don't see any other way to say it. It's just antithetical to the entire,   ethos of Bitcoin in my opinion.  

But, again, I don't wanna I don't wanna soapbox these things. I'm not trying to stand on a philosophical point here because that's very easy argument to make. It's easy to sit up here and be the the, you know, you should the fundamentalist type. The, you know, you should never do this because I get that happens all the time in, like, the privacy communities.   I don't think that's necessary to make this argument.   So I don't wanna do that this whole time, but I I I wanna at least put that out there because I I I can't stand the fact that we're supposed to be building this brand new permissionless   inclusionary system. And what do we do but graft on this horrible exclusionary procedure right on top of it, and it just normalized the whole thing.  

So that's that.  

[00:16:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I'd I'd wanna agree   with diverted there and say that, you know, the   the the financial surveillance is as antithetical to freedom as,   dragnet surveillance   that came in after 911. It completely   side steps,   fundamental rights. And and so the fact that you have this broad   financial surveillance everywhere   in the banking system and in the ramps that lead it, you know, when you acquire Bitcoin is,   it's a   it's not good. It's bad. It's a reality that we have to contend with. The best way to contend with it, I suggest, is to   work within a framework that it exists and and most of the adoption curve as it stands is entering through KYC. So now what? Right? What do we do? And   and, I mean, to my to my view, the the the problem seems to be is that,   this fiat era isn't going over going going away tomorrow. Right? So there to to some degree,   we have, like, years, maybe decades of this fiat era.  

And   when you   disappear,   wealth out of that fiat,   system,   it's kind of like a one way if if you try and move it into no KYC   wealth. And that's been my kind of view is that, like, okay,   my mental model is that, like, okay,   if I put all my wealth in Bitcoin and then my family uses it to to pay on a mortgage later. Right? Like,   that is   because I'm working with institutionalized   corporations on the other end, like, that's gonna be tied to my legal identity because I'm still living in the fiat world part of me. But what I could do and and what I think is interesting is I could build a no KYC stash that was destined for the Bitcoin era. Almost like an emergency stash, a no KYC stash. And   that's where I I I don't think you're gonna get a lot of pushback from me on on, like, the value of, like, home mining. The value of these exchanges that let people   build, you know, plan and build an OKYC stash. Where I think it gets kinda messy is most of the world, you know, we're at a couple hundred basis points of adoption. Most of the world as as enters Bitcoin,   they live in the KYC fiat world. And so they can't move all of their wealth into   no KYC because it they have liabilities. They pay lenders. They pay people that are KYC. And so   that's a quandary more than anything that we just have to grapple with. And I don't have a good answer for that. And I guess I'm just curious, you know, what y'all thinking on it. You've been y'all been in this space longer than I have.  

How do you   grapple with that?  

[00:19:25] Unknown:

So let me offer a few thoughts here. I think, of course,   I'm not gonna say bad things about non KYC. I believe   if you can acquire non KYC, that's great. I I just think it's a different   trade off balance for a lot of people,   and that there are people who are newer in their journey who   you might try to teach them about the values of privacy, but they might not be interested.   So   I see it as   the broader shifts that we're trying to achieve   is to take away   the fiat power of money,   and I believe that there is a broader shift.   And just as I would and I have argued,   Gus, and in articles about the cultural consequences of fiat money,   I believe that when society switches over to Bitcoin,   some of the we're going to undo some of those fiat cultural consequences,   and so from my perspective, I see it as as more people shift over to Bitcoin, and of course, some of those will be non k y c and some of that will be k y c, but I think that will drive fundamental shifts in society, and I believe those   are generally gonna be better shifts for society.  

I I   think the aspect around what how much can be done about k y c. I think that's probably the more important question because I just I see this like   we are living in a world where governments have all this power, and there's only so much that private companies and private individuals   can do about that.   I think the   important aspects are that people can still self custody their coins. I think that's really the key point. Of course,   then from then, they're able to use CoinJoin and other privacy techniques, but I just see it   fundamentally that, yes, KYC has a risk,   but for   many people,   they they are better off at least holding some   than holding none. And so even if it is KYC coin,   I think in practice, if people end up having a little bit in both worlds,   then so be it. If they have some KYC and some non KYC,   then so be it.  



[00:21:42] Unknown:

Okay. But I I think that, like,   the biggest piece, and this is   a lot of where, like, my frustration on this whole topic kinda comes from is that, like, we have all these people that have such, like, large platforms   and,   you know, like, yes, like, we do, like, the acknowledgment of, like, hey. Like, no KYC is good. We should have a KYC escape hatch. We just should have you know, like, try to store some of your stuff in no KYC is just in case.   Right? But the reality is, like, how how are we pushing all these people in this mass I'm doing quotations because I know it's a mass adoption of Bitcoin. Right? If we are pitching them on censorship resistance,   right, decentralization,   all of the, like, core foundations of Bitcoin,   Right? Instead of, like, being like, well, in the future,   eventually, hopefully, maybe,   this KYC won't matter.  

You know, if you were onboarding people the right way, they're gonna see KYC as, like, an immediate threat. They wouldn't want if you're onboarding people with that mindset,   like, you wouldn't want people to   to like, you would if you're, like, a person that's, like, I don't want to I want this wealth to be out of the eyes and out of the hands of   regulators,   right, or the state.   No KYC is your route. Like, I've pitched that to older people   and, who have a lot of money, and they were immediately like, oh, I don't like, how do I get no KYC?   I don't wanna buy it from Coinbase or anywhere else because,   like, they're gonna have a track on that, and, eventually, I'm gonna have to pay taxes on it. Right? Like, eventually, they're gonna they're gonna cut they're gonna know. Like, they're not stupid   despite the fact that, like, you know, people think that boomers are dumb. It's not true. Right? Like, they especially, like, the wealthy ones, like, those are the ones that, like, know They know the reality of this stuff. They know the reality of taxes and how the state can actually just,   like, steal straight from you. Right? So, you know, you pitch it in that way that no KYC is that important.  

And,   you know, you wanna opt out of the system, like, no KYC is how you opt out of the system. And, like, there are ways. Like, there are plenty of people who live   on the on you know, they they got on 0,   and they make it work in the fiat system, in the fiat world, if you will. You know? So, like, I I feel like we make a lot of excuses,   but then on top of that, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community?   Right? Like, what are we doing   to make no KYC,   like, acquiring it easier? Because the biggest the biggest pushback that I hear about, like, oh, well, like, no KYC is just is just easier, and people don't wanna do it. Right? Well, like, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community to make it   easier? Like, we have BISK, and that's great. But, like, what what can we be doing better? And that that should be the conversation, not like, oh, well, this is the easiest thing to do at the time, so let's just go that route. Or, like, everyone just do home mining. Home mining isn't isn't something that every single person has the money to put up and do. Like, I I   obviously support   home mining. I think more people should do it, but that's not, like, a reality that every single person can do, you know, with their with their income.  

You know? So   that that's kinda where, I guess, I step off, and I I start to think about how the no KYC, KYC argument goes. Is, like, what are we peddling   versus what should we be peddling?   And what's our responsibility as Bitcoiners to, like,   you know, to inform people on? It  

[00:25:03] Unknown:

it might be a good opportunity to get the to to get the kind of the agreement that,   forward privacy on settlement is   absolutely vital. I mean, this idea that anytime you settle to a a party that they're not able to introspect   introspect your financial business.   So I think, like   I I I hope that it goes without saying everyone here wants to see forward privacy   eventually become across most people's Bitcoin stack the default.   And and when we talk KYC, we mean backwards looking privacy, which is to say, you know, you essentially have an an exchange that has a list of how much Bitcoin you have, and you're gonna have to account for that,   whenever you sell it. Right? And and and and so,   you know, I   like, I I think it's important to say that no no one everyone here is pro privacy.  

You have a Bitcoin wallet. You should be able to settle to parties and and not have your privacy divulged.   So I I helped my my parents onboard to Bitcoin because they saw   not not because they thought it was cool, they were gonna make money, but they saw the groceries,   the price of groceries raising and it started to scare them. They've seen countries go through hyperinflation   and and, you know, red book and and this and that.   Their concern is, like, they don't have so much money that they   can you know, like, 1, they don't wanna go to, like, El Salvador.   Right? They wanna stay in in the fiat era in their fiat country. Right? So they're in a KYC country in the US,   and they, like, they have a cabin that they wanna pay on the mortgage on. So they can't have the SATs leave the fiat system because they have expenses in the fiat system. If they have big stack and no KYC   and they pay Chase   Bank with those SATs,   I mean, you see what I'm saying. Right? You kinda you know, your legal   person now has   payment of of,   to Chase Bank and and so you haven't really disappeared   any money from accountability. And so this is why, like, I actually think of no KYC as a one way road. Like, you are those sats are destined for the Bitcoin only economy.  

And and for me, that's an argument that it's actually at the end of a Bitcoiner's progression. Like, when you get into Bitcoin, like, you might accidentally buy, like, grayscale. You're buying paper Bitcoin and then you get coached and you're like, wow. I need to hold my Bitcoin. I need to hold my keys. And then eventually, people are like, you know, you should have some no KYC stats because where we're going, we're not gonna, you know, you're you're not gonna need   where where we're going, you're not gonna need KYC. You're not gonna want it. But until we get there, like, you're not gonna take your no KYC stash and and pay Chase with it. You're not gonna, you know yeah. I understand you can get gift cards. Right? And you can or or whatever. There's there's mechanisms by which you can make purchases,   for goods. But but any real like, what do you do there? I guess, that's my question. Like, what what would you advise to my parents or in you know, as the rest of the world kinda gets on to Bitcoin, how do we solve that?  



[00:28:12] Unknown:

Cash   money orders? Yeah.   You can sell you you can sell your Bitcoin,   and you can turn that around and and use it to buy  

[00:28:23] Unknown:

things. It's just not gonna be as convenient as having, like, an in app, you know, you can just instantly send, like, strike or whatever. I don't even know if you're sending Bitcoin, but, you know, it just shows up as whatever it is that you need it to show up as.   But it's more, like, in no way, shape, or form are the no k y c stats that I've acquired,   stuck until hyper Bitcoinization or whatever. Like, I've regularly spend Bitcoin.   I pay my bills in Bitcoin. I may not pay it directly in Bitcoin. I do when I can.   But when I can't, I hop on. I'll find somebody. I'll sell for cash. I'll use I'll get a money order or whatever I need to do. It's just not as   convenient,   I suppose,   in this current,   you know, I said, Fiat world.  

But my   the whole idea here, what I can't quite wrap my mind around is   this this   adversarial   mindset,   of Bitcoin. And not only the adversarial mindset, but the actual coding of Bitcoin and all the   the trade offs,   and things that that were made in Bitcoin's development,   like, what are we what are we doing that for? Why are we making   these trade offs? Why can't we just,   accept a little bit more centralization? It would make things a lot easier. The more centralized your thing yeah. It's it makes you can be a lot faster. You can you can do a whole lot of things, even more privacy. You can get, you know, a lot more private. Just whatever you wanna do if you just trade off these other things, but we're not willing to do that with Bitcoin. We make specific trade offs even though it may be, quote, unquote, slower   or it whatever.  

And, I mean, the only the only thing I could figure when making these trade offs because,   specifically, we're trying to make Bitcoin so that it does not rely on anyone's good graces to operate,   that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. That's that's where we're we're going   if, in my opinion, Bitcoin is at all successful.   It's very possible that this k y c data doesn't matter at all ever,   but in my opinion, the only way that happens is if Bitcoin never becomes an actual threat   to USD hegemony and and the greater powers at large.   Like, if if nobody if Bitcoin's not actually a good safe,   you know, a safety hatch or somewhere that people can opt out of this Panopticon that they're very obviously building and moving towards CBDCs and shit like that.  

If Bitcoin isn't that safe haven, it and it just stays as, like, this this speculative   asset that goes up and down based off of whatever the Fed decides to do, whether they wanna cut rates or rate whatever they wanna do, Bitcoin goes up or down. If it stays like that and it's not   this real   actual opt out escape hash for people, then who gives a shit about the KYC data? Why would they care?   But if we do actually start challenging their power,   I don't see a world where   that just happens   peacefully and easily, and they just hand over this godlike power of money printing   without there being some sort of,   like,   for lack of a better word, attack   on the people that are taking this power away from them. And so we we prepare with the coding of Bitcoin so that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. I just don't know why we wouldn't, as Bitcoiners, with our own personal individual stashes, do the same thing and try to make sure that our Bitcoin is able to operate in an adversarial environment no matter   whether or not they declare it's legal or not.  

And even if, you know, people hold their own keys, you know, we're we can say that holding your own keys is even more important than no k y c. Well, okay.   But what what are you actually implying there? The implication is that because you hold your own keys, they can't just   do a blanket 6102 order on the exchanges and take everybody's Bitcoin. Fine. Granted.   But,   I mean, if they do do that, if they do go towards that aspect, not a ban of Bitcoin, but, say, a ban on self custody, You could still Yep. Quote, unquote own Bitcoin,   but it you're gonna have to custody it with an approved exchange.  

Well, if you hold your own keys, they can't just take that from you. So what they're gonna have to coerce you into that. So the implication being as long as you hold your own keys, you're able to resist this coercion. I don't see any way around that. That's what that's why would you would do it.   So why are we not preparing fully? I just don't understand why you would prepare in all these other areas and then hand over your entire identity to purchase   Bitcoin.  

[00:33:08] Unknown:

I mean, I think I think Diverter really hit the nail on the head here, and I I wanna unpack this as one of the main aspects of this conversation in my opinion,   is the fact that Bitcoin companies, all major Bitcoin companies,   are required by law to keep an ever growing list of Bitcoiners and our transaction history,   share that   information, keep it forever. I mean, they say they keep it for 7 years. It might as well be forever.   You should assume that it's forever.   Is is this an attack on Bitcoin? Is this the first attack on Bitcoin?   Are we going to see this evolve? Are we gonna see   regulated exchanges   put other restrictions on Bitcoin?  

Are we gonna see   burdensome tax policy   imposed on people who are   using Bitcoin?   Are we gonna see all of this data   basically weaponized   against Bitcoiners?   And what is, you know, the next 5 years of this type of situation?   And do people that are onboarding onto Bitcoin right now understand   these trade offs they're making? Because I'm pretty sure they're they they aren't.  

[00:34:23] Unknown:

So let me jump in here. I think one of   the ways to think about this is we're going on this   journey of   trying to help people shift their wealth into the Bitcoin system, and some of those people are not as willing to take all the same steps to go fully non KYC for various reasons, that they   may not be able to access the liquidity, they may not   they may struggle with the UX hurdles and not having somebody to hold their hand while they go through this, of course, we can help our family and friends,   but there will be people who are coming through who don't have access to a person who's willing to   spend and spend that time with the non KYC aspect of it, and so I think to your point, adults, so answering your question around what does it look like in the future,   it's yes. It's quite possible that we see more and more   regulation come down the line from the government or more   encroachment   in terms of   things like,   let's say the FATF Travel Rule. Now, some of this stuff was in place even before Bitcoin, right?  

So   the laws and things that caused   AML laws, so the Bank Secrecy Act in the US,   organizations like the FATF, the Financial Action Task Force,   these are some of the underlying entities driving this KYC pressure, and these entities   all sort of form a club, and they start bullying each other to do more KYC. And they bully countries   to then say, hey. You are on the blacklist unless you implement new AML laws in your country.   Right? So in Europe, there's AML 5 d, and there's all these different, right, AML laws that they're trying to press sort of ram down our throats.   Now we don't want that, and I believe that's something that could be pushed back at the root cause. If we were to start pushing back against the likes of Fadev   and   to have some of the politicians   aware of that because I I I see this as a multi pronged battle. Right? This is there's people on the on the non k y c only side who are just trying to build that non k y c economy,   and I see it like there will be people who   were trying to push back   in the in the white market side, in the in the government side, in the political side. They're going to play that political game, and so I've done episodes about some of the ineffectiveness   of AML laws. I did an episode with Ron Paul talking about the problem of AML laws, that it it's really that's the source of the problem,   and that I think, like, while I accept,   yes, there is a risk that Bitcoin companies are having to keep lists of Bitcoiners and transaction history. That's the legal requirement.  

I I wish it weren't so,   but I think one of the ways to   help against that in the longer term is to build up the base of Bitcoin people, of the people who hold Bitcoin. Yes. Many of those people coming in will have KYC.   I wish it wasn't that way, but I think this is the reasonable way because in the future, yes, if there's not enough pushback, yes, I think they are gonna do things like wealth taxes. They might even, potentially, we're seeing them raise flags about things like unrealized capital gains taxes. Right now, if that were to occur, if that were to come to pass, then that would be really, really bad for Bitcoin holders.   And I believe at that point, they'd be you would have probably enough Bitcoiners with enough of a political will   back or to start   doing,   but   those are some of the risks that are potentially coming down the line   if the   I guess that political battle isn't fought.  



[00:38:08] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I think there there's something to that. Wait, Lazer. One second.  

[00:38:14] Unknown:

Before   Stefan, you see your your boy, Catan, asked you a question? Yeah. Sure.   If we could push back on governments, Bitcoin would never need to exist. We cannot advocate them to stop printing money. Why would they stop collecting personal information?  

[00:38:28] Unknown:

Yeah. Look. It's a good question, but I think ultimately so   my answer would be that we can push back on certain aspects of it if there's enough of a political will, if there's enough people   who actually would go to a you know, to try and vote for a person who is   who sees the danger with this. Right? And I'll give you an example. Right? So, you know,   as, Odell says, right, our queen, Cynthia,   has spoken about things like the   the unfairness or the injustice of the reporting threshold   being   down at $600.   And then thing, this is just a general   financial services   KYC thing. They   are continually   clamping down, and this is not just a Bitcoin thing. It's just it's just an in general thing. So I think this is the other point I see as well that   I think   it's like   I think some of this is sort of shooting the messenger. Right? It's like where it's almost like you're you're you're blaming   Bitcoin companies when they're trying to help. They're the ones actually trying to help people get onboard to Bitcoin.  

Other people that, you know, not there there's other people who are not even   involved in the space at all and not trying to help people get into Bitcoin at all. And I also think how fair is it to expect   these small Bitcoin companies, and especially the Bitcoin only ones, much smaller than the likes of the Coinbase's of the world,   that their ability to even push back on their own is is extremely limited. They are this tiny entity   at risk of basically losing if if they lose their license, they lose their ability to compete, and they lose all, you know, ability to actually play you know, it's ticket to play. If you lose   that license,   you're gone. You're out.  

I I think these are some of the ways that people are yeah. Any I'll I'll leave it there. I think someone else wanted to come in.  

[00:40:21] Unknown:

So yeah. Yeah. Just just real quick. Like, the, main exchanges have been around forever. Right? Like, I don't think anyone's coming back, and right now we're saying, like, oh, exchanges, exchanges, exchanges. Like, shooting a messenger. Like, they're they're   exchanges are in it to make money, like, otherwise, they would not be able to operate. That's why,   you know, it's all about appeasing the government.   And that's ultimately where it's, like,   you know, it's   it's   it's weird when, you know, you see   people who are, like you know, and this isn't just, like, directed at at you guys. It's just in general. You see it all the time, a Bitcoiner is just, like, talking out of 2 sides of their mouth. They're like, we wanna end the state, but I'm gonna, like but KYC is the way to do that. And you're like, by utilizing KYC, those KYC exchanges,   right, have to appease and be boot liquors to the state. Right? Like, their whole thing is that they need to do whatever it is that the state tells them to do in order to play the game. Right? So while you could argue that, oh, well, like, they're trying to do something   to get more Bitcoiners on, and, like, being a Bitcoin only exchange is, like, sure, that's a I mean, it's better than being, you know, a casino or whatever. Sure. But, like, at the end of the day, right,   exchanges   are in it to make money.  

Like, that that is their financial like,   they are in it financially. Like, that is why that they're there. Right? Because if they weren't, there's plenty of other things that they could be doing to make this better for Bitcoiners, or do the absolute bare minimum as far as reporting goes, or whatever they could do to prove to Bitcoiners that they are they are doing the very bare minimum, because that, to me, is like the ethos of Bitcoin. The the ethos of Bitcoin is about, you know, being outside of the state, to not be, you know, compliant and not be, you know, regulated   or have restrictions on who you can and cannot transact with. That is why we are censorship resistant. The moment that everything is KYC ed and that we continue to say, oh, it's okay, because eventually, we won't be KYC ed or eventually, the state will die. That's not gonna happen. Like, that's not gonna happen to this state. It's a threat. If we're gonna talk about Bitcoin as what it is supposed to be, which is censorship resistant, peer to peer transactions,   you know, the the digital cash,   that that goes away.  

That goes away the moment that it actually becomes a threat to the government. So what do you do? You continue to regulate. If you're the government, you just continue to regulate, regulate, continue to list, keep it going, make restrictions harder and harder as you see it become more and more of a threat. Right? You make more and more laws that are based around these people exactly because   if the majority of Bitcoiners are people that are just in it for number go up or whatever, they don't care about KYC. They don't care about that stuff. Right? They care about their their bags getting pumped. Right? So it comes down to to preaching the ethos and getting people to understand, like, what Bitcoin is about,   right, and how to operate in that Bitcoin world.  

Right? It's it's not about just,   it's not about just, like, getting as many Bitcoins on as possible. Like, that that to me is,   that should happen on its own. Right? If Bitcoin   the logic being, right, everyone says Bitcoin is the is revolutionary   money. Right?   If it's revolutionary money,   it will it will adopt itself.   Right? The market will speak for itself. We don't need to pedal   the,   the KYC exchanges to saying the only means. And then the the only other point I was gonna add real quick, the whole self custody off of exchanges   is like a is like a privacy like like, the whole reason that, you know, not your keys, not your coins. Like, I started before the KYC debate. Right? Like, that was like a Mt. Gox. Like, he like, they got how many exchanges got hacked since Mt. Gox? People just lost their coins. Like, that was a different,   totally different thing.  

It didn't have to do with, like, forward privacy of   whatever. Like, it it it had to do with people losing their their Bitcoin.   So I just, like, I feel like that was just a point that doesn't need to be,   brought up for whatever reason. But yeah. So that that was I just feel like it depends on how we're how you are looking at Bitcoin   but will shape how you see KYC.   That's my opinion.  

[00:44:36] Unknown:

Well, sure. Of of course, it does. But like weather or no? It it's still about   go ahead. Go ahead. Because I got a lot of requests.  

[00:44:47] Unknown:

Sorry.   You're not recording me.   Okay. Whether   whether whether or not we convince new Bitcoiners to hold their own keys or not, I think that's absolutely fundamental. I mean,   you know, especially going back to what you're saying about the risk of a of a 6102,   a kind of, like, broad,   dictate that that allows the state to either confiscate Bitcoin or or sort of like a paperification   that we saw with gold. So it's trapped in   regulated   custodians.   Like, that's a real risk and and the you know, what you want is enough Bitcoin   held in   cold storage where people are custodying it themselves   that the the unit economics of of the the application of the monopoly on force in that way is fundamentally   inverted. Right? If if nobody holds   Bitcoin holds their own keys,   then you haven't inverted   the the,   application of force there. Right? It's it's very easy to coerce a small number of parties.  

To to me, this   it it reminds me of, like, the the firearms issue in the United States. So,   up until recently, most of the world, most of westerners   who didn't understand why Americans   were are allowed to own guns, you know, They're in this place where, like, they're looking at maybe having to scan their biometrics to see if they're, like, able to purchase groceries. Right? But in the US, we don't have these, you know, we don't   broad ownership of firearms, just the specter   of firearms being broadly   owned across the people really does stay the   the ultimate tyranny of the state. Like that has been proven. And of course, in the US, most firearms are KYC. Right? You, like, you provide your info your legal info so they know who has guns. And and, of course, they've tried KYC persecution,   but they only can do it at small scale. It's the the the ownership of guns is too broad in the US to do,   you know, nationwide   political persecution. That wouldn't be politically   viable.  

And what's funny is now that there's a culture of guns,   be it that they're KYC, but we have a culture of guns in the US. We have this this no KYC   escape,   escape hatch developing where people are basically, they're manufacturing their own firearms, which is it's super geeky and cool.   Now I don't I wouldn't stop people from getting KYC firearms. I would say get it. The more people that had it, the better. That broad ownership really neuters   the ability to do broad KYC persecution.   But I I would encourage gun people to geek out with, like, 3 d printing and stuff. Right? Like, make that escape hatch really   healthy and irreversible. And that's kinda how I feel about Bitcoin. It's like, I don't wanna stop anyone from getting into Bitcoin. I wanna I wanna I want it to be as broad as possible. I wanna help people hold their keys so it eliminates the the paperification and confiscation risk. It makes it politically enviable.  

And at the same time, I want enough adoption that they can't do broad KYC persecution because like Stefan was saying, it's it's not that I want KYC. It's that I'm able to reconcile   the reality that   there is broad KYC. The adoption curve is entering   through that.   Now what? And I just look at guns as, like, there's a reasonable   analogy there.   What do you think about that?  

[00:48:14] Unknown:

Well,   I would say   the one absolute   red line that the   gun lobby or whatever has always drawn   is on a national gun registry.   And it's the one line they absolutely will not allow to be crossed. Now the second amendment,   you know, as written, I mean, as far as I could tell, all gun laws are infringements.   So every gun law is unconstitutional   as far as I can tell.   But the one single place that all of all the compromises of of all the Californication   of, you know, gun ownership, and you you restricted this and restrict that, that all these were accepted   and compromised and compromised and compromised until we got to the National Gun Registry. And that's a hard red line, and they will not accept it.  

And I think there is definitely a lesson in that. There's also a lesson in   the 3 gun printing community and,   the the defense distributed,   the the Cody Wilson,   their outfit when   they started posting these files and stuff online, and the state department,   came after them. Now   the state department ended up backing down quietly.   They ended up backing down from from   what they were trying to do. They backed down quietly. They quietly passed,   the the these   this regulation off until, the commerce department, I believe. And what the commerce department did was swiftly turn around and write the laws exactly as how   Defense Distributed was doing their website. They wrote the law around how the okay. The way they're doing, it's legal.  

And, as far as I could tell, the only way that   that result ended up that way is not because of political good graces,   It's because they couldn't win,   and they knew that they can't win.   Now the problem with only,   self custody, and self custody is absolutely   paramount.   Don't at all for a second get that twisted,   because even in the Mt. Gox days and all that, yes, sure. It was about keeping exchanges for being hacked, but it's, from day 1, as far as the trade offs of Bitcoin goes, this has always been about surviving an adversarial environment,   period. Point blank. That's what this whole thing is about. Because if it can't survive an adversarial environment, then we're at liberty reserve again or whatever else.  

So every trade off has been for that. And so then here we come,   and they can't brute force attack this thing. They can't just do all these things that they want and shut it down like Liberty Liberty Reserve. They can't go get the centralized server. So what can they do? They slowly strangle it by just grafting on this piece of legacy   crap that we know doesn't work.   Everyone knows that it doesn't work. It's been proven that it doesn't work, especially   for the people that are most often targeted with it, then your smaller players. The the the rich people, they do what they want.   So they just graph this on so that now this is our attack vector. And the good thing about this attack vector is it doesn't even have to look like one. It's it's it's welcoming. You can do whatever you want with your Bitcoin. All you gotta do is fill out all this information. Now   the gun community knows very well registration leads to confiscation. And, yes, as   guns are initially purchased legally,   speaking, of course, there's a background check procedure and all that stuff that happens.  

But it's also there there is a the the hard line has been drawn about   tracking transfers of guns. Those those guns can be transferred legally,   and there is no national gun registry that actually says this is what's happened to it. So   what I think is is the problem here is I feel like   I feel like people get way too much credit for being able to resist.   That's what I feel like.   I said I was gonna blast him a couple times on this episode. I might as well go ahead and get started now.   I'm not so sure that I want just everybody holding Bitcoin right now. They're they're welcome to.   I I would've I would've sure. Go ahead. Get you some.  

But I'd I'm not interested in   in Bitcoin for grandma.   Grandma better be super based or have a super based son or grandson that that teaches her how to do this stuff because   we don't send grandmas out to fight our fights for us. And we haven't had our fight yet. And it seems like everybody's   playing this game as if we've already won, as if Bitcoin is inevitable.   But what have we really done?   There there are a couple places around the globe where people are escaping their hyperinflation   of the currencies, and   believe me, it's tremendous. I'd love to see it.  

But we're does that's not the United States. That's not the world reserve currency that's being escaped. That's not people finding an escape route out of   the USD hegemony. That's something entirely different.   And money, the power to print money is something entirely different than than   anything else in the world.   Because as I'm sure we all would agree, the the ability to to print money on a whim essentially funds this whole clown world that we run-in. And so if something actually starts to begin to siphon away that power from them, I don't   for for the life of me, I can't see how that happens. I don't see some sort of, like, flash crash death   of the legacy system. I I just don't see how we get from point a of we're taking all their power   to point c of we're we're in a a hyper Bitcoinization   type world without the big ass fight in point b.  

And I feel like the people fighting the no KYC fight   are our trench   trench warfare guys. They're we're digging the trenches, and and we're fighting our fight. We're preparing for our fight to come.   And and I sometimes it feels to me like the well, if we just accept the k y c, I feel like you're in no man's land right now. You're in between the trenches.   I I don't understand why all these trade offs are made to survive an adversarial environment all the way down to the point of the individual   being able to resist because I promise you,   if an order was to come down of a self custody ban, just that, not a ban on Bitcoin because I don't think that'll ever happen, But just a ban on p to p transacting or self custody or whatever,   from a legal standpoint.  

People that have never KYC before in their life will be turning their coins in.   People will will will trip over each other to tell on their neighbor because they complied and their neighbor didn't.   Like, the amount of compliance that we've seen in 2020, 2021, and now into 2022,   I don't see how you have seen this world and how people react and still think that there would be any sort of, like, actual resistance   if   if the actual holders of the Bitcoin are just any old Joe Schmo and not somebody that's actually got into this thing understanding that I might be looking at a deadly fight coming in the future.   And so I I I want to see people get on it, but not at the expense of of,   you know, having to hand over their entire identity to do so. I don't think it's necessary. I really don't. I don't think adoption has failed to, to this point.  

You know, we've went from 0 to a $1,000,000,000,000   asset without   having, quote, unquote, mass adoption. I don't understand where the failures are. I I feel like   there's plenty of stuff that we've accomplished   that that now this is their attack vector because we've cordoned off all the other areas of Bitcoin   appropriately as we should,   and that we've left the back door open. And it just it it it irritates me to no end to to   see people that have   likely never felt the weight of the state   crushing down on them because it is a crushing feeling. Everything I need to know about Bitcoin, I learned in prison. And people will tell   and people will comply because they're scared they're scared of losing their their freedom, their families, their money, their everything. They will comply. I promise you.  

And I feel like we have an ability now to get people like even the people on this panel   that are willing to dig in,   to absolutely dig their heels in and know this is this is not happening and fight through this fight. But it makes you not only willing, but it makes you able   if you don't give over your whole identity to do so. I know you're willing, but I need you to be able as well.  

[00:56:43] Unknown:

Like, you know I've I've granted long enough. In in a broader sense,   it's it's   I I think we should give more credence to the weight of political entrenchment. I mean, the political the the politically entrenched,   firearm culture in the US has stayed   the absolute tyranny of this COVID imperialism. Like, it Yeah. I would disagree.   You could be in town to not see it at all. And and so why wouldn't we want Bitcoin to become politically entrenched? You already have senators and governors. You already have grandmas. You know, they're not trying to escape the fate. They're trying to defend themselves from inflation. You have Tucker Carlson talking about it. I don't think sailors are going to be carted off to a black site. Right? Bitcoin's legal property. So I want political entrenchment, broad political entrenchment. I want it to become an election issue,  

[00:57:32] Unknown:

where the republicans say, we'll take the other side of that. And how How broad does it fit the national issue. Tell me. How broad does it need to be? How broad I mean, we just saw a vaccine mandate just tried to attempt to be shoved down on literally half the entire population. I don't know what politically untenable means these days. As far as I could tell, the only way something is politically untenable is if it's within your own party. Like, there is no line the quote unquote other side will not cross,   to and I don't I don't see how I mean, this is something that I would actually likely,   combine the side. They they would be willing to combine forces because everyone can agree that it's important that the United States has a stranglehold   on this, economy and on the US dollar. Like, we can't allow that to go away. Everyone can agree with that. Everybody can get on board with that. We have to be   the   intransigent minority, and we can accomplish   so much just being an intransigent minority. We don't need the whole point of these trade offs is to not need them to be, you know, politically aligned with us. It's great if they are, but I'm not begging for them because we've we've built the stuff to not have to. That's why it's the way it is. I that's what I don't understand.  



[00:58:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, just and just to be clear. Right? Like, you have   firearms,   which   are meant for self protection and everything else, which regulation has been   steadily increasing over time, which   that right there in itself for Americans, like, that should be a sign.   That should be your warning of how regulation can happen.   Right? Like,   they don't need to outright ban guns.   Right? They don't. They can make they can make it so unattainable for you to do it that that you they get to select who basically gets to own guns.  

[00:59:22] Unknown:

So I guess, for the last 2 years, we're the greatest years in firearm purchases that we've ever seen in you. Agreed.   They're doing the exact opposite thing if if what they wanna do is restrict gun ownership.  

[00:59:33] Unknown:

Right. But you say that, like,  

[00:59:35] Unknown:

as of So now do money printing. Now do money printing.  

[00:59:39] Unknown:

Right? Like But that's not the same thing. Right? Like, owning, like, buying ammunition.   Right? Maintaining your training status. Like like, you can't just, like, go out and just buy guns and then be, like, okay. I'm ready to fight the state. You're not.   You need to train. You need to go shoot. You need to practice, like like, all of those things, and that's why they know. I don't need to ban guns.   Right? I'll make it It's about defending families. It's not about them fighting the state. We're making the nation more expensive. I'm just saying that looking at how   the slow,   the slow and steady regulation   and increasing, like, regulation on firearms is a great example of why we should be worried. So we can say, yeah. Like, increase over 2 years. That's cool. That's because people are afraid, which is good. Right? Inflation should scare people in the Bitcoin. Yes. But, like, you have to think about the regulation on that side, and you're never gonna see. And on a a different note, you're never gonna see the establishment   government,   the current status quo that we have. It doesn't matter who's in who's present. It doesn't matter who's there.  

Right?   Like, we're we're not going to see a day where people who come into power in the fiat system   and are willing to just fight for a non fiat system.  

[01:00:48] Unknown:

Like, they like, that we're beginning to see it. I think we're beginning to see it on the right that you you have politicians taking up Bitcoin,   the Bitcoin banner.  

[01:00:58] Unknown:

They haven't done anything. It's easy to pander. Like, they they pander,   and that's easy. It's it's like it's like saying, like, oh, we believe like, how many times have we heard them say, like, oh, yeah. We're against censorship   in, in the big tech space.   Nothing happens. Nothing changes. It's a talking point. So, like, until something happens, then then I'll be convinced. Right? I don't wanna Well, I'm not gonna You don't wanna rely on this thing in order for Bitcoin to be successful. That's really what it comes What you are describing with no KYC is is essentially having people  

[01:01:27] Unknown:

vanish their wealth and live   away from the fiat checks and balances. I think that's a fine story to tell people as build an escape hatch and it's an emergency fund in case the state goes pathological.   That is a broad message. We could tell that to the 100 of millions of Bitcoiners that come online. But but people are they're not trying to defeat the state. They're trying to   preserve their time and and and defend them their families against inflation. That's the same rule with gun violence. They're not trying to join a militia and defeat the state. They're trying to defend their families. So I'm just saying as a matter of a onboarding progression, you wouldn't start with defeat the state. You say, yes, you can defend your family from inflation. You should hold the keys. You should buy firearms. When we all do it, power dynamics change to the state. It doesn't have unlimited   access to our time, to our bodies. Right? And that's the point. I'm just I'm merely speaking to the network effects of political entrenchment.  

It worked.   It's   got yeah.  

[01:02:28] Unknown:

I well, I'm just I I don't think you're wrong that that,   this this message of protecting your family gets inflation is is,   you you know, is more resounding to to more people than it is to, you know, let's destroy the state. It's, I completely   acknowledge that. The here's the problem as far as I could tell with that is because when you get people like a sailor   in this situation and I'm just using him. I don't mean him specifically because   listen. Here here's the thing.   KYC   okay. Fine. There's different aspects of Bitcoin because   many, many, many people in this world do not view Bitcoin as a peer to peer permissionless,   the payments network. What they view it as is quite frankly a speculative asset, something that they can trade,   There's something that they can maybe, you know, just a a a store of value, and there is no real transaction. They're not transacting. They don't care to transact.  

All they're trying to protect is their USD purchasing power, and I get that. Those people will likely go through KYC because who gives a shit? Because as you've, I think, correctly noted, they're just trying to protect their families from inflation.   Now, the problem though here is that if you get so many of those that are only protecting against inflation,   so that all we're doing is really just k y c n so we can hold this thing and precept our purchasing power, Nobody's guarding the transaction part of Bitcoin,   the permissionless part of peer to peer transacting.  

And my fear is that as much as I do believe Saylor would defend Bitcoin's right to be legal as a store of value, I don't think he would put up one piece one of iota of a fight,   really, truly over its peer to peer,   you know, transaction ability outside of government regulation. I don't think he would at all. Now you might be able to make the argument to him that if you lose that peer to peer transacting ability, that it may affect his number go up situation.   Possible.   But the problem is it if we dig so many people in this, I'm just protecting against inflation, then, I mean, who actually does need to transact with Bitcoin? Who's actually transacting?   As far as I could tell, the only people that would actually need to transact with Bitcoin in a way that is not regulated by the government, well, I mean, they must be criminals or dissidents.  

Why else would they want to transact  

[01:04:49] Unknown:

without being regulated? So I don't fear Does an El Salvador fit in this? Does the El Salvador fit in this thought, though? Like, you you know, you have these Not at all. Jurisdictions coming online that are okay. Tell me about that.  

[01:05:01] Unknown:

Not at all. It's a it's a government instituted. They've they've   if you get now now this is actually a pretty good example because you've got a this top down Bitcoin adoption   through El Salvador, through the government that they're just dumping onto onto people, whatever it is, $30 worth of Bitcoin, whatever. Now it's legal to to transact with Bitcoin.   But   if we get that audience   there   now to actually understand what Bitcoin is, because as you've, I think, correctly noted, it's hard to deny   that the vast majority of adoption as it happens right now comes through k y c initially. And that's generally because most people don't understand what the hell Bitcoin is when they first buy it. I know I didn't. I thought it was a stock.   I didn't know what I had. But the day that I felt like I kinda understood what Bitcoin was, I immediately   began trying to figure out how I could sever my identity from it. Now if we can get that same exact community in El Salvador   to understand   that this Bitcoin thing really is powerful and it really does give you the power back instead of these oligarchs and,   all these people elites ruling the world, it really does give you individual power back, then I guarantee you they'll be they'll they'll be ready to take that once they've understood this.  

It it the no KYC is what allows them to actually have the power and not be acting in a permissioned way. Like, otherwise,   I'm just making the transactions   that whoever says to make. And I don't understand how   the problem with, as I see it, with mass adoption, quote, unquote,   quite frankly, is is custody. That's where you run into a problem with mass adoption. That's why I'm not I'm not this mass adoption guy that that,   tries to get as many people onboarded as quickly as I can. I don't think that's a good,   good strategy simply because   the masses   and and I'm sorry. I will not have my mind changed on it. The quote, unquote masses   will not ever hold their own keys. You might be able to get an uncle gym type scenario where you hold your keys for your family, but the vast majority   in a mass adoption type scenario, I don't see any other way around it than they would hold their keys with a trusted third party. So   I feel like   we can get to that point, but to get to that point, we need to get through this fight first. Like, there's no I don't see any reason why anyone would put their flag down, politically even, and stand up for the right   to transact   outside of government regulations with Bitcoin in a permissionless I don't understand where that where how that gets here politically.  

Now to transact,   sure. But not to do so in a purely peer to peer fashion outside of regulation. I don't understand how anybody tries to make that case to get elected. I don't see it.  

[01:07:57] Unknown:

Is that the 6102   account from, Twitter, that really iconic account that disappeared   in this chat?  

[01:08:04] Unknown:

Yeah. It is. Yeah. That's yeah. Yes. I love that account. This is this is his show. This is his show. I created one of the reasons   one of the reasons I created Dispatch was so that he could participate without doxing his voice.  

[01:08:18] Unknown:

Ever, yeah, ever forget when,   Odell had him on, and I had to do the voice over for him. No. No. Lavera had had 6102  

[01:08:27] Unknown:

on, and I was 6102's voice.   Yeah. You're right. Right. 6102 made a very good point,   that I feel like hasn't been properly highlighted here, which is that KYC isn't just about the risk of the state.   The company is collecting the info, and and the state are incapable of keeping the information safe.   Once it's recorded at registration, it's inevitable that it will eventually be accessed by criminals,   which is it's an absolutely crucial point here because   the whole the whole excuse that is used for KYC AML regulation and these   rapidly growing list of Bitcoiners in our transaction history   is that it stops criminal activity.  

But criminals are just either buying KYC data,   or they're they're stealing it.   They they there's literally there's markets that are enabled by Bitcoin that allow them to to pay   underprivileged people $40,   a $100 worth of Bitcoin   to go KYC on Binance for them so that they can get through those measures. But it's honest citizens that are getting fucked by  

[01:09:31] Unknown:

it. They don't want an escape hatch. Christine Lagarde, if there's escape hatch, they'll use it. And that you know, it's   folks think that I'm, you know, I'm against these no KYC,   methods. No. I think, you know, it's absolutely fundamental. We have a healthy and irreversible   escape hatch that's growing. I just I I I can't follow the logic of how we get it to the beginning of the bit Bitcoin progression. Like,   the the fundamental constraint that once I have a bunch of no KYC stats, I can't   I can't,   interact with the KYC world anymore. That's a hard thing that's a big pill to swallow for for, you know, for most of the world. Right? But we I don't I I don't understand this point though. I mean, there's like like I said,  

[01:10:13] Unknown:

hell, the the the samurai wallet guys been living on Bitcoin since, what, 2013, 14? Like, they've got mortgages and car payments and, like, it's not as if the this that assumption would would mean that only Bitcoin could be spent.  

[01:10:27] Unknown:

But all of your wealth is KYC when you earn it. So if you have, you know, money orders showing up, you know, at at banks to pay for this and that, it you know, that's a that's a very easily interrogatable   paper trail that any investigation would surface your so in the same way, you're gonna have to account where did that wealth came from. We see that you amassed wealth through your career in the KYC world. You held it in dollars.   Okay. Now you're paying for assets.   Where   talk to us about in between. And and so all I'm getting at is, okay, I have a emergency   stash,   so that my family could flee if if if the state becomes pathological.  

We could go to, like, an El Salvador. It would be treated as money there.   That would be really awesome and I hope more countries join. But I'm not going to pay my mortgage with those with that emergency stash because I don't want to all of a sudden have my legal name tied   to,   funds coming from this gray area. Right?   That is that's not risk free. That's a different shaped risk. And so  

[01:11:30] Unknown:

Listen. I'll give you I I I I would even grant you, like,   if we're talking about   some major purchase, like, you're gonna buy a house with cash,   you know, obviously, you're gonna set up some red flags. But when we're talking about, like, paying a mortgage bill or, you know, which is what I see so often talked about or even making, you know, down payments of even even if we're talking, you know, 10,000, $15,000,   like, those   this is not, like, end of the world. You're busted.   There's no point in having no KYC. I mean, sell the Bitcoin and do what you need to do with the fiat. Like, if we're living in both worlds still,   then just do that. And if we're not living in both worlds still, if if this, you know, fiat world ends,   and now, you know, we're we're in this Bitcoin era with only no KYC sets, I mean, I would I would I would just be shocked to find that that, I would still encounter the same exact problems of having to account for funds if we've already transitioned.  

So I don't understand really   again, like I said, granted, if you're gonna buy a a a quarter or half a 1000000, a $1,000,000 home, no. You're not exactly gonna go sell your Bitcoin and and then walk up with cash and pay like that. I'll grant you that.   But still, that doesn't mean you would, first of all, have to dox all of your non KYC stash   or secondly, that regular everyday payments and activities can't be done with   no KYC stats. I mean, it's done it's done regularly.   Yeah. It's your it's your payroll one thing while I was thinking about it because that really just hit on me, but this the no KYC has a I mean, I'm sorry. KYC procedure has a very,   strong tie to, like, the vaccine for me because the   they both they both don't at all do what they're supposed to do, but everybody is being forced into doing it. You know what I mean? Well, I mean,  

[01:13:25] Unknown:

Diverter, that's that's the point. Right? Like, it's it's it's kind of insane, you know.   Most Bitcoiners seem to agree that that vaccine mandates   are absolutely ridiculous that you walk into a bar or a restaurant or something, and that private business is required to take your vaccine   your vaccine information, your medical information,   your your private personal information.   But everyone just turns a blind eye at at Bitcoin companies requiring all this information.  

[01:13:54] Unknown:

I just don't see how,   like, there there's plenty of companies that don't do that, but the problem is there's no money in creating another biz or,   you know, another huddle holder or whatever, another peer to peer exchange where, you know, you can attempt to be more censorship resistant and offer people an onboarding into Bitcoin without having to do KYC. There's no money there. The money's in the shitcoin casino, and you can't have the shitcoin casino unless you have the KYC.   That just so happens that if you also do those things, then you've got a nice stash of KYC that you can onboard tons of people through a Coinbase or a Kraken or whatever it is.   So, you know, it all comes back. It's not as if, like, you know, this this just naturally progressed and Bitcoiners were searching out for a better regulatory standard. It's no. Like, people wanted to make exchanges so that they could become rich. They did.  

We followed because that's what the government.   That's that that is the path of least resistance.   And I feel like it's so obvious to me there's a reason that that's the path of least resistance. We always see them try to coerce and push and nudge people to do whether it's through psyops or regulations or whatever to do what is least damaging to the state. And so quite obviously, the road to KYC exchanges has been left wide open,   with very little,   you know, problems or pressure until they try to do something to step outside of it. And then the United States is all over them regardless of where they're at   in the world. So, you know, I just don't see how it's any different that   we all see of obviously, the KYC doesn't work. Everybody agrees. It's it's it's plain as day. It's pointless then to mandate for everyone to do this KYC. If it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then it's pointless. So what is the point? The same as the vaccine. The point is the compliance.  

The cruelty is the point. The point is to be able to make people   be or seek your permission in order to do what you're allowed to do. Otherwise,   if that's not the way that it's done, then you might go off and get yourself some natural immunity, and then we can't control you.   And I just   the the parallels are there.  

[01:16:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Okay. So let me add a couple of things here. So I think,   again, everyone on this panel is agreeing here that   AML laws are a bad thing for society.   It's it's more just about how do we best deal with that reality. That's that's really what this is about as I see it. I mean, there are obviously trade offs with these things. Right? If you want to acquire non KYC,   you might not be able to acquire as much as you want to. Right? It's probably true even for me   that I might not have as many stats if I hadn't gone through KYC for at least a portion of my stack. Now, of course, I also have non KYC coins,   and   that's   one aspect of it. But I think the other point I just wanted to add in as well is that there was a bit of discussion, and I think Diverter and just in general, this is kind of the   attack of of the idea of, see, mass adoption is not the way. And you know what? Maybe it's it's not   but it's it's worthwhile thinking about this. Consider,   would Bitcoin be at the prices now without the existence of the KYC exchanges?  

And now you could also say, look. That's an issue. I would rather have Bitcoin price be lower and have more hardcore people, and fine. That that could be the case. But I think let's point out because as you were saying, you were saying, well, look, Bitcoin is a $1,000,000,000,000 market. Well, what I'm saying is I don't think it would be it it might not be at that level if it weren't for the existence of these companies that, unfortunately, yes, they have comply with the with the government laws of their own   national jurisdiction. But the point, as I said then, is maybe the point really is about trying to focus the adoption towards the quote, unquote, remnant. I think it's it's those people who are actually gonna try to fight this. Right? And so many of those people are Bitcoin people. They are the same kinds of people who are trying, at least, to push back against the hysteria   and the other sort of COVID restriction stuff that's going on.  

But the fact that the restrictions   still exist, I mean, is that the fault of the people who are trying to push back? They're at least trying. So I see this as there'll be a lot of people who are who want to get in, and they can't necessarily buy the same size that they would like to if if if they were gonna try to buy or, you know, purchase or acquire that same stack, non KYC,   and they want in. So   what do you what do you prefer to do?  

[01:18:23] Unknown:

I I I do,   I'll grant you that,   coming into trying to make an extraordinarily   large purchase,   for example,   right off the bat without doing KYC is obviously much,   more difficult than it is to say, you know, get in slower dollar cost average, whatever you wanna call it, in, in a non KYC fashion. I I would then, you know, obviously, I would point to the peer to peer or the OTC type markets. It still could be done. It definitely would not be as easy.   As far as the point of whether or not we would be here without these regulated exchanges, I mean, it's a hard point to argue, I guess, for or against that. I I guess, you know, the world may never know.   Other than   I would say   it's hard for me to find,   a, quote, unquote, black market type good, in the world that it's white market counterpart is less expensive.  

So I I don't know whether or not the price would be where it's at now. I I can't say. It may, it may not. But I do agree with you on your point about   focusing adoption, and that's more of what I was trying to talk about earlier. I'm not trying   to necessarily turn anyone away from adopting. It's more of a focus on adopting   in such a way that we are better able   to,   you know, resist and be able to work whether or not they want us to or not.   So I do think that's important, and, you know, this is where I get into what,   Zelco talked about earlier and people with their audience.  

Because there's a lot to really say here. I mean, listen, in this world, you've got you've got leaders and you've got followers and you've got, you know, fighters and you've got engineers and builders. You've got all these different type of people, and we've got them all in Bitcoin.   We've got them all in this panel.   Matt is obviously a leader. Now now he tells people not to trust him, and he knows people trust him. He knows he's a leader. He's taken on that responsibility because he wants to lead. Now now the difference between,   what I would call a good leader and and a selfish type leader is   Matt   gets his excitement   from seeing other people do the things that he's led them towards.  

Not   he doesn't get his excitement from being known as the guy that guided him there. He gets his excitement from seeing people actually get there. And that's a key distinction, I think. And that's why when we're talking about your audience, Stefan, like, you talk to a lot of people. You've got, you know,   tons of followers on Twitter. You've got a huge podcast. You've got a very broad,   podcast. You talk about all different kinds of things. So I wouldn't expect you necessarily to be constantly railing about, no k y c and and and, to everybody. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit with your audience.   Zelco,   he doesn't really do Twitter that much. Zelco is what I would call a builder.  

Zelco is building the stuff that we   or or the people that are trying to be the leaders,   are trying to lead people towards the bridges that Zelco has built. So he does he doesn't really he doesn't really count in more ways than one. That's true. But   but but,   you know, now this is where I get into   to laser huddle. And,   again, I we've talked before this. We've talked well, I'm sure we'll talk after. And, you know, all this is with the utmost respect.   But when we come to LaserHollow, I feel like   your audience is a sovereign audience. Like, that's who you've got. You've got   you you've come up with your your   great reset takes that people have really taken to.  

You've got an audience of willing people that are that are ready to listen to you because they see you want to be a leader. You've stepped up in a leadership role and you want it.   And and that's that's admirable. I wanna see it. But the problem then is   your audience, I feel like they're the sovereign individual.   They're the people that recognize the great reset that sees   all these problems and like you said, protecting their families from inflation and and and and and basically just an air of protection   around them and their loved ones.  

So   when your audience is   virtually all this sovereign   remnant type, for lack of a better word, I just don't understand why you wouldn't specifically tailor   a   more resistant path to them. Because   once people get to that point of I recognize the sovereignty,   once you get there, like, it's very easy to get you to, okay. Now let's do all this no KYC stuff. There's no need to go through the k y c procedures. I feel like you've got them right there. And if you could just lead your audience the rest of the way, like, I feel like they're ready to listen. And I've I've I get very discouraged when I see them going more, you know, k y c doesn't matter route,   because I feel like a lot of these people that really are the types we want,   they're gonna listen. They're gonna follow you. And I just feel like you've got responsibility   as I do, and I take it very seriously   that if peep even though I've got a fraction of the listeners   that you are the followers you all do,   but I take it very seriously. There's people listening to me. I may be putting them in a position to where they're gonna have to fight this thing,   you know, down the road.  

And so that's what really irks me about the whole thing is I feel like we've got specific   audiences, each of us. And I feel like, you know, for the most part, we try to do our best in in guiding them, and I just wish that   the no k y c part took a bigger   stance in that general message to the audience because I really think people are ready to hear it right now. They know this world is bullshit. They've seen this compliance. They've seen all this junk. They've seen what the state is willing to try to do to you with these vaccine mandates and all this stuff. Like, they're not gonna let up.   And and if we can just handhold them right across the line, it doesn't matter that they came in initially through KYC.  

So what? So did I.   Sell that shit or just stop doing KYC today and move on. I that that's that's it.  

[01:24:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Right.   Let me just jump in and add a few points. Deverter, I think you made some great points there. I think it is about for well, to some extent for all of us up on the panel today,   it's about   trying to put out good, accurate information for people,   And so I just wanna actually respond to a couple of points in the chat. I can't remember exactly who made those points because we scrolled a little past it, but, essentially,   the point one of the commenters is trying to say is companies' holding isn't the same as individuals. And, yes, granted.   But I think it's also the way I'm seeing this, and okay. Fine. Other people have a different view of this. I see this as a battle that must be fought on multiple fronts. I see this as   even though I don't like politics,   you know, what's the saying? You might not be interested in politics, but politics might be interested in you. And so I think that some of the   responsible Bitcoin only companies that are trying to   build an advocacy base and are at least trying to build up,   some kind of advocacy to   lessen the role of the state. And, yes, the role the the companies in the space may not have exactly aligned interest with fully non KYC, but they will at least try to push that Bitcoin is not illegal,   and they will at least try to push that running a Bitcoin node or holding your own keys should not be illegal, and they will at least try to push back against things like capital gains, or unrealized capital gains taxes and things like that. So   from my perspective, I obviously have a varied show. Right? I talk about a lot of different things on my show. I I have spoken   a lot about privacy. I've I was, you know, one of the, for example, samurai wallet and talk about a lot of the coin join aspects. So I'm   saying it, like,   as long as   you try to honestly put out information,   then I think that's the key part. And if you explain to people, and even for me when I'm at a Bitcoin meetups and I'm trying to explain and teach a new coin, I I will still explain to them about   some of the various risks and trade offs of KYC coin as opposed to acquiring non KYC   coin. But   for in in many cases, and I think this is the point that probably has to be   when you speak to people out there   to take that extra step for non k y c coin. So I think that that's the that's where the rubber meets the road. Right? It's easy to   be   ideologically pure in what you say, but when you are talking to people and trying to onboard a lot of people, and I don't mean in the mass adoption sense, I mean in the trying to, you know, adopt the right people, right, the the remnant people, how do you do that?  



[01:27:23] Unknown:

So, actually, someone in the comments a long time ago said something that was   them it might have been 6 61 or 2, actually, but,   you know, like, his example was meet up with a friend, have them pay for dinner, right, and then you pay them in Bitcoin.   Right? Now there's their first no KYC transaction.   But,   you know, in general, right, like,   it's   and again, this is coming from my personal experience of   how how do I frame everything? What am I you know, like, I I get people all the time as I'm sure everyone here does. As soon as someone finds out that, you know, normally finds out that you're into Bitcoin, they're like, oh,   like, you know, how how do I get into this? Like, I I wanna be rich and whatever. Right?  

You know, how you how that conversation immediately goes from there   is is crucial. Right? Like, my conversations are about,   you know, are about privacy, about opting out, or about,   you know,   being sovereign. Right? All of these factors that that I find important, right, like censorship resistance, you don't want which is easy to pitch now. Right? Like, we just talked about,   you know, COVID and everything else. Like, censorship   is a is a easy sell.   Right? So,   when it comes down to it, and we talk about adoption and, you know, where would we be? Because it brings me back to, like, the   to, like, why Bitcoin   is great. Like, we all here agree   that Bitcoin is, you know, is one of the greatest tools that have ever been created that we know. Right? Like, I mean, that's at least like the marketing pitch. But   for all the reasons that we say that it's important,   what, like, what is it, and how do we put that out to people? Because if it's just like, hey. Get your hands on Bitcoin just to get there, and then eventually,   somewhere down the line, hopefully,   you go down the rabbit hole and you figure it out. Like, that might work, and that that's probably the case for everyone that's on this panel right now. We all probably started KYC, and then we all probably fucking figured it out from there. Right? But we're at a point now where, like, you know, KYC wasn't in, you know, 2015, 2016.  

KYC was there, but, like, you know, it it wasn't the same as it is now, and and it's just getting worse.   You know? And   you're I I think it's in   before I continue, I just wanna say like like, you know, we me and Diverter, we keep saying, like, influencers are saying these things or people are saying this, and it makes us disheartened, and they're kinda talking at 2 sides of their mouth. And it's obviously not just directed at just YouTube.   It's,   you know, it's the majority of people on Twitter. Right? It's it's   all these people   who are quote, unquote influencers,   and it's really, really easy.  

Right? It is really easy for someone to come up and tell everyone,   hey. Like,   just get into Bitcoin,   but always have no KYC. Right? That's your way of, like, getting around it. Right? Because then you gotta hit both parties. You're like, look, I support both. And it's not a knock on you guys, but it is just like, that is the easy path. That is the easiest thing that we could do. And, like, for talking about privacy and talking about no KYC, like, I applaud you guys. Right? But, like, the hard path,   the unpopular path   is talking about how to actually opt out, how to actually operate in this, like, no KYC   environment, like, how to actually live in a fiat world without KYC, or how to actually,   like, onboard people with this. How to actually onboard onboard people or help help fund things that, like, build no KYC avenues? Right? Like, how do we do that? Like, those   if if we had more effort, and there's no money in it. Like, as Dave Reuter said, there's no money in this. Like, who's gonna pay you? No one no one's gonna pay,   pay any influencer or anyone with any sort of actual amount of value, right, to come out and do it. That's why Bitcoin has no   real, like, marketing campaign. Right? Like like, we're not like the other shit coins that, like, have these big marketing campaigns and go out and make make   all sorts of, you know, ads and and whatnot. Right? Like, you see that from the exchanges. Right? Because they have the money. We don't have that.  

Right? So what do we have? We have all those list of people that diverter said, influencers, builders,   which by the way, I take a knock at you calling me a builder and not a leader, but that's fine.   But, you know, like, where what are we doing to get there? Like, we all up here have agreed that, like, no KYC   is that important. It is important.   But then then the conversation is stopping at,   well, it's it's too hard.   It's too hard to get people to do these things.   Okay. I see an obstacle.   So what's what how do you get over the obstacle?   Right? If there's an obstacle in front of you, you have 2 options. You either quit and turn around   or you figure out how to get over that obstacle. That's it. Those are the only two ways that you can operate in life. You're not gonna run run straight into an obstacle a 100. You're not gonna run to a brick wall a 100 times and hope that, you know, on the 100th time that the brick wall falls down. It's not how it works. Right?  

So, you know,   utilizing that KYC and being like, well,   you know, like, this is like a it's just a temporary thing.   I I like, that that to me doesn't solve any issues. That to me is is   it's the easy path. You know? We need to really figure out it it if everyone on here is that adamant about no KYC or that adamant about the risks of the state and that adamant about how great but how great Bitcoin is, you know, for its decentralizations,   for its, censorship resistance, you know, for anybody to be able to transact with anybody, any route, anywhere around the world. Right? And, you know, in an instant,   then why are we not building? Why are we not trying to   increase that onboard process? Like like, I I hear, like, obstacles, but there's nothing that's saying, like, hey. Let let's try to fix it. Like, someone puts out a guide, someone retweets it, and then I go, okay. That's good.  

You know? Like, that's it. No no one's no one's actually trying. And don't get me wrong. Probably part of it is that the people that are   on as you know,   they actually are on 0, and they're all in Bitcoin, and they still operate in the Bitcoin in the Fiat world.   I'm sure that they don't wanna go out and advertise, you know, to everybody what their methods are, because, you know, that would be the next step for the state to, you know, to start censoring that those means,   to people operate outside of their control.   Because that's ultimately what it is. The fiat world is what controls us. And if we wanna be outside of control, the goal isn't to, you know, to appease   the to appease the government, to appease,   you know, regulators and, you know, exchanges and all other stuff. Like, yeah, sure, they they can have power and that's great. But   if you're if you work for somewhere that's over complying,   they're in exchange and they're over complying,   or they're not building tools that can actually benefit their users,   you know, like, what good is it? Like, what good are we doing? Because   we're we're just making excuses. That's what a lot of this ends up coming down to.  



[01:34:29] Unknown:

I just wanna point one thing real quick, because I believe,   to your guys' credit, to the guys' on on here's credit, you   may have mentioned that, you know, you feel like the easy part is,   you know, saying,   I I I kinda support both. I I I I might kinda disagree with that a little bit because   I recognize fully,   I feel like the easy the easier road is to take, this sort of, fundamentalist,   never do KYC no matter what stance. And we see that all the time in the privacy space, especially if anybody's operating in the privacy space, you'll know. I mean, you'll get called, Get get called, you know, a LARP for, you know, hosting your own Bitward and running your own Bitward because it's not fully offline and all that stuff. Like, so the the fundamentalist stances   to in my opinion, are the easy ones to make. The hard ones to do are the ones where you try to figure out,   you know, adoption   in this environment that we're in. So I I I understand that,   but, you know, again, I go back to this point about audiences,   and it's why, you know, like I said, I appreciate Stefan. He talks about all this stuff. He's got a very broad audience. Matt constantly rails against KYC. I appreciate what he does.  

You know, but you don't catch me, like, in Raoul Pal's mentions, you know, blabbing to everybody there about, you know, going on no k y c because they don't give a shit. They're they're   speculative. They're traitors. They don't care. So, you know, it's I feel like just standing in the middle of a square somewhere and shouting   no KYC at everybody that walks by doesn't get you a whole lot of places. But when you've already got that audience   that is that is there, that they're ready to be sovereign individuals, they're ready to take that next step, I think it's it's key. It's paramount   to to give it to them then.  



[01:36:20] Unknown:

The adoption curve isn't you know,   I I don't I don't think the adoption curve is entering through Stefan and and and   myself. Like, I I think the the signal has spread so broadly.   You have Tucker Carlson talking to tens of millions of people about inflation. Right? So people are worried about inflation.   They, you know, it it really you know, I'm not saying it shouldn't be a progression that that that starts with people buying Bitcoin the wrong way. I'm saying it is. And and that's the reality is people, like, buy paper Bitcoin with their bank.   It's only when they end up with a talk with the Bitcoiner that it goes you know, that that you have time to say, hey. Get some sats and make sure you can stick them in a wallet. I'll show you how. Right? And and and and and so, like,   I I I guess my fundamental thing is that, like, we have to grapple with that reality that this the adoption curve is getting fatter and fatter, and it is entering through KYC.  

You know, I have a huge audience that I I talk with about,   the great reset because I've been, you know, laser focused on,   the ways that they're upgrading the state, the ways that they're upgrading the monetary system starting in 2020. I think this whole decade, we're gonna see that,   unveil. You know, we're in this info war. It's literally like a World War 3. And so diverter said, you know, why aren't I telling people just to get in the trench?   Essentially disappear into no KYC. And and, like,   I actually think the most prudent thing is to think of it as a emergency,   an escape hatch. Like, make an emergency fund, grow it. And and they also think I the the same time, I'm being kind to the progression because I know when I was new at Bitcoin, it would sound like gibberish if someone said,   do all these things. Like, you know, it was overwhelming the idea of holding my own keys when I just got into Bitcoin in 2018.  

So I I don't know what to do about that other than other than recognize,   I do want the adoption. I do want the political entrenchment. I do want number grow up. I do want I do want the broadest adoption   as possible. And then, like, my my semantic answer, my practical answer to owning Bitcoin wrong ways, people should rebalance because you start you think you have Bitcoin, you bought grayscale, oh, shit. Rebalance to physical sets that you can cuss Laser. Laser. Have  

[01:38:38] Unknown:

Laser. So so   you keep talking about people who buy Grayscale, buy GBTC,   buy, like, this,   you know, faux ETF,   and don't understand the trade offs, and they should, you know, they should stack   self custody instead, KYC SATS.   How is that any different than someone who buys KYC SATS and doesn't realize the trade off?   Like, how how it what what is where is the difference there, and how do how does buying   Bitcoin   attached to your personal identity and all your intimate personal information   protect you from a great reset? Like, we talk we talk about 6102 all the time.   Yep.  

We're gonna have super burdensome regulation that comes down on Bitcoin   as part of this great reset. We already have super burdensome regulation on Bitcoin that no one talks about, which is the fact that if you spend Bitcoin,   you know, the state takes 30%   of of that of that transaction   and then takes income tax on top of that from whoever whoever you're paying to. Yeah. So, fundamentally, I think there's 2 strategies  

[01:39:43] Unknown:

that are playing out. I'm just watching them. 1 is it Bitcoin is becoming a broad tool for families to defend themselves from inflation, and it's starting to get a republican conservative,   like, political   slant where you actually see people on the right taking it up. It might even be   a election issue with this Hillary versus Trump 2024 thing. So even though that's cringe, I think it's actually good because it screams political entrenchment. So I think that is a strategy and I wanna see broad adoption in that way. At the same time,   people shouldn't be naive about KYC persecution.  

Re you know, most people end up with KYC   Bitcoin rebalance. What's your allocation of no KYC Bitcoin? Because the the reality is if they 6102 this stuff, you'll be psyched if you have it in a wallet, but you're still gonna have to answer for it if, you know, they have they understand how much Bitcoin you have. So, you know, I want families positioned for both strategies   so that they can flex through this decade. Because the idea that   the KYC has its own trade offs. There's no k y no KYC. They have opposite shaped trade offs.   So, people need to be realistic about that.  



[01:40:53] Unknown:

Sure. But to me, that's, like, exactly the point. Like,   I because I I agree with you. Like, as as you said, the the adoption curve of the funnel that was going around for a while a while back, the funnel,   the end is getting much wider.   Much more people are being introduced to Bitcoin and and beginning to to see the value and being able to store store their hard earned,   you know, value time value in an asset that's not able to be just deflated on a whim.   Grant you all that.   My issue then is that, obviously, that's not who we're speaking to. I'm not speaking to that person. I don't know that person. Tucker Carlson is speaking to that person.   What I wanna make sure of is   as because   the the real true reality is they don't understand what they're holding. They just know that this thing is only gonna be 21,000,000 of it. Now   to me, that is that that's sending them into a construction site without a hard hat. Like, they don't understand what they're walking into, and I'm not giving them any sort of protection. Now I can't give them any protection when they're listening to Tucker,   obviously, but what I can do is I can make sure that wherever I am at, wherever I do have an audience, if they show up there, the first thing they're gonna see   is talk about the the the potential threats and the adversarial style of thinking that has gotten Bitcoin to even be able to survive to this point, because had it not been for taking these exact trade offs and and forming this adversarial mindset that we're going to run a parallel system regardless   of whether it's politically entrenched or not. It's going to run. That's only possible because we made   these these trade offs, these specific   purposeful trade offs to not,   you know, be at their whims. And I just don't   I've been I I guess maybe I'm too disillusioned with politics at this point. I I'm not   I wouldn't necessarily say burn it all down because that's just not probably how things are gonna go. But the the fact of the matter is as far as relying on the political,   as as, like, a strategy as far as,   adoption or even,   legal ramifications. I'd I'd I just don't see it because I've seen   I think just, like I said, with this vaccine mandate, I mean, it was half the country. It was vehemently opposed to it. So is does that mean we're gonna have to have   60% of United States Bitcoiners that are holding their own keys before it's politically untenable? I don't even think that's the case   because this is a unite all sides,   issue here. The United States is losing their global dominance,   you know, to this magic Internet money. There's I just don't I don't I can't wrap my head around it. I don't see how it could be possible without there being some sort of   attempt to drastically neuter   this permissionless   network so that they can exercise some sort of control over it. Because otherwise,   if if, you know,   whoever Joe Schmo out there sees that Tucker clip and goes out and buys himself some Bitcoin on Coinbase,   you know, maybe he leaves it there. Maybe he never knows anything. But, again, that's that's not our audience. That's not who we're talking to. That's that that's not our fighters.  

You know, and you can't get mad at the person that's not a fighter. I used to laugh at all the time.   People that were criminals would get mad when, you know, the little old lady down the street called the cops on them. What the that's that's her job. That's what she does. She's not a fighter. She she's a civilian. And so, you know, these people that are just buying Bitcoin because and they don't really understand it. They just know it can't be inflated away. Fine. That's all good and fine. What I'm hoping for though is that   if they or anyone around them then begin to actually dig into what this thing is, I want as soon as possible,   I want them to be able to to come across an aspect and a perspective   to where they understand that there's an entirely different side to this thing, and it it may just not be our roses and sunshine forever.  

And, I mean, we're already in a war right now. It's already happened as you've pointed out, and you continue to point out with your great reset takes, like, as you're which I appreciate, by the way.   You know, the the it's happening now. Like, this is this is not just some future,   problem that we're talking about. Like, today, the war is currently fighting.   And so I want as soon the in the hive top 100, I want 97 of them to be no k y c advocates. I want this this when whenever anybody is introduced to the wider Bitcoin audience or to the leaders   of this Bitcoin movement.  

Not that everybody takes their cues from Stefan or you or me or Matt or anybody else, but they eventually come for a community. We've seen it happen.   I want that community to be one that   enables them to best protect themselves and their loved ones so that   no matter what happens,   they're able to they're they're able, not just willing. I mean, you you can be willing to fight, but you can't fight for shit. You're just gonna get beat up. So if you if you're not if you if you've bought all k y c, and, yeah, you're holding it in your own wallet, but then when they declare it illegal and they know you've bought this, or, you know, self custody illegal and they come for you,   very, very vanishingly small amount of people are gonna actually resist that.  

Now   in my opinion,   the best possible   chance that we have to have people that actually are able and willing to resist it is to have those that aren't on their, you know, easily accessible   subpoenaed list or don't even need a subpoena with a third party doctor. They can get all that information from the exchanges. So if we have a nice   selection of people that aren't subject to this rule,   those are our fighters. And and I just think we, especially on here,   maybe with the exception of Stefan and Matt, they've got a little bit larger audiences. But us 3,   remainders, I feel like like that's that's the only people we're talking to are the people that are ready.  



[01:46:59] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's, you know, the sailor kind of view. It's like you have a broad populace that is going to take their KYC wealth. They don't wanna store it in dollars certainly right now, and maybe they don't wanna start in equity anymore. It's like digital property. They wanna store it in Bitcoin,   and they're entering through all these different avenues, then they get to us. You're saying we should lean in heavier on   do you take issue with the angle?   If if I'm saying, look,   mine at home, build a no KYC stack, you know, that's destined for the Bitcoin only economy. You know, that's kinda how I think about it.   That's it's it's like this in between place between where you are and where, like, a sailor where sailors kind of like, look, CBDs, these are coming. Let them have the currency. You just treat this as digital property.  



[01:47:46] Unknown:

I I guess I just don't see the purpose in it. I I I don't I don't see the reasoning behind if you know that this other option exists where you don't have provide all your identity and everything   to in order to acquire this Bitcoin. Now   sure.   As you I mean, you're gonna go buy a house. You're still gonna have to account for that wealth.   You know? Yeah. And you could you could answer for that. Sure. But I just don't under that's it's not as if that can't be done if it's still, if you acquire those through non KYC means. It isn't like you have to have a KYC,   backlog to shove that. What are you gonna have to pay taxes? I mean, you're still you're claiming it. You're not trying to hide it. I just don't understand why there has to be a separated   thing. Like, I know   I use my non KYC Bitcoin regularly. I mean,   2, 3, 4 times a week, I make purchases with my non KYC sets,   or I'll might sell, like, hop on to BISK and sell a little bit. Somebody saved me the other day. I needed a little cash, didn't have any hopped on BISK sold and done.  

And, you know, I didn't have a a KYC background for those, and I was able to go pay my bill. So, I mean, I just   it's completely plausible to live in the world without having to acquire through KYC.   Once you have wrapped your mind around the fact that this KYC stuff is what it is and that you don't have to do it, you're really only doing it as far as I can tell for the convenience,   which granted is quite a bit more convenient sometimes,   you know, or or maybe even the fees because it could cost a little bit more. You know, there there's obviously downsides to go on the non k y c route. But as far as I can tell,   the potential   downside   of not,   protecting yourself through, you know, staying off of their databases   is just so much more drastic than than anything else. I just can't. There that's that's like the one compromise. That is the absolute red line for me. Like, KYC   is a nonstarter for me.  

Point blank period. And, you know,  

[01:49:52] Unknown:

that's that's it. We can and should grow the remnant. I agree with you.   I think there's trillions of KYC wealth that's going to be KYC in Fiat or Bitcoin that comes online. I want it I I'd rather it be stored in Bitcoin. You know, it's it's institutionalized   wealth. It's small businesses. It's corporations. They don't have an easy way to to to basically go into the Bitcoin only economy yet. Yeah. At the same time, let's grow that remnant. I agree with you. Well, the yeah. They they they can do  

[01:50:22] Unknown:

as they see fit. You know, like I said, the the or like, you know, many people have said, like, everybody's gonna get into Bitcoin at the price that they deserve, essentially. You know, these companies and these,   you know, high net worth individuals,   they have they have no interest in in fighting against the state. They'll be the 1st to comply. That's not that's again, though, that's that's not our audience. It's not who we're talking to. That's not who Laser Huddl's talking to on Twitter. That's not who Diverter's talking to on Twitter. I'm not talking to corporations. I'm not talking to high net worth individuals. I'm talking to the people in the trenches. That's who's following me. That's who's, you know, reading my articles. That's who's reading my shit takes on Twitter and never liking or retweeting them.   You know, so, like, I feel like   I just don't know how I would I can square the circle of me knowing that I'm talking to these sovereign individuals and me believing   fully in my heart that if this thing that we're in,   if it is successful in doing the thing that it's built to do,   I don't know how we get around the fight.  

It could fail, and we don't ever have to fight. But if it's successful,  

[01:51:28] Unknown:

I don't know, man. I don't see I don't see how we get around it. There is a strategy to to making Bitcoin more legitimate. I that's I I wish you could appreciate that that legitimizing Bitcoin is a strategy and political entrenchment is a strategy. It's happening in front of us. So we have, like, one horse in that race. We also need the remnant horse, the escape hatch horse. So I wanna play both. I wanna grow, put the right people into both, teach them the trade offs, and and scope the adoption curve the best that we can, recognizing we don't have absolute control over it anyways. I mean, at least,   hold your damn keys at the you know,   that's where I'm at with it.  



[01:52:06] Unknown:

Okay. So,   I had some thoughts, and I just,   we we kinda talked about,   the fighters   and people who we want to be in Bitcoin. We can't control who goes into Bitcoin. Right? But, like, who we're talking and and how we're pushing people is the important part, but, like,   accepting that the KYC exchanges are okay.   Right? Like, they're okay right now,   or, like, you know, because it's it's unavoidable, let's just, like, get on board and and try to get people to go, like, an escape hatch or whatever for now. And you're not in again. Isn't what I feel like? I don't want you to feel super triggered. I did the same   little, like, routine when I was talking when I did the node 1, I was talking to Matt Hill. I felt like he felt very attacked, and, wasn't wasn't the case. Again, this is, like, just speaking to, like, you know, the Twitter Twitterverse as a whole.  

But,   like, would everyone here be as, you know would you guys be, like, as, like, okay with KYC if we were if they were limiting the people that were able to buy Bitcoin?   So, like, if,   you know, the restrictions got harder and who you could actually   who was actually allowed to to buy KYC Bitcoin. Are you are we gonna be on a like, are you guys gonna be on board? Or is it gonna be, oh, shit.   Now we have to change. Right? Like, I feel like right now, it's a convenience   of, like, well, you know, they're they're allowing people. Like, they're not really restricting much, and it's and it's pretty easy. Right? Like, so I think we're good. Right? But, like, we're we're not thinking down the line or thinking, like, you know, thinking about, like, what what's gonna happen between now   and this,   proverbial,   imaginary,   hyper Bitcoinization,   no fiat world,   right, where where that KYC didn't matter.  

The the reality is that,   you know, KYC, and and I'll turn this over to you guys, but, like, if KYC, they just started to, you know, the state, whether it's in the US or whether it's UK or wherever, if they just started limiting who could buy.   Right? They said, oh, you know, or if we start to have a social score or whatever, they're like, oh, well, you're not high enough on the social score, you don't get to buy Bitcoin. You're not That's already happening. We're already destined towards no cash, towards full surveillance, and and   But that's not gonna be my Bitcoin. Right?  

Yeah. But but, like account completely Bitcoin. Right?  

[01:54:31] Unknown:

Well, that's true. But there's a window where we're in this   analog fiat world, and we're switching to a digital fiat world. And in and in that world, you know, the the method of, like, trying to pay your mortgage with a cash or money order or whatever, trying to buy things, That slowly disintegrates. So there's there's a problem that we have to contend with there, and I don't have a great answer other than to say, like, that's coming and that's real. So, like and that and that's why I'm, like, pointing it out. Right? Like, KYC is acceptable  

[01:54:59] Unknown:

to to the masses for now. Like, I I had to be on Twitter last night and just see everyone   super defensive about KYC,   which blows my mind that, like,   being KYC being defensive   of, like, it's okay to be KYC.   Like,   you know, like, oh, well, like, everyone should KYC. Like, how else? How are we gonna think of the grandmas. You know? Like and and it wasn't just you saying. There was a lot of people on Twitter just saying, like, think of grandma. And I'm like, I don't care really, like,   you know, like Deborah said, like, grandma's not the fighter. Right? Like, it's it's, like, what does it do? Community  

[01:55:32] Unknown:

workers. Sent back to work. Their people their retirement's being stolen. So I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna pretend like Bitcoin's illegal in front of them. I wanna legitimize  

[01:55:41] Unknown:

Bitcoin to the people that are that that are used to living in this fiat world. I wanna legitimize an even better point, though. Like, you're making an even a better point for my case. Right? Because, like, if the state knows that you just took that money,   your retirement, and you just put it into Bitcoin because you bought it on exchange because it was easy for grandma,   then   the state still knows that she has Bitcoin. The state   knows that she has the money. So when they wanna come for a while, you know, their their capital gain  

[01:56:13] Unknown:

It's the same thing with equities. It's the same thing with any type of property. It's there's still, like, a few well. And and and no KYC is an escape hatch. We can siphon wealth out of the KYC, the fiat era. That's great. How do we fundamentally   change the adoption curve that is entering through KYC?   I haven't heard an answer other than Stefan and I should preach no KYC more  

[01:56:34] Unknown:

fair. I think it's important. I agreed with you. Right? Like, I'm saying, we're now like, as a bit the Bitcoin community as a whole as a whole,   other than saying it's good.   Right?   And there are people that are advocates for no KYC,   and they generally be tend to be the, you know, the smaller audience people, like Diverter,   you know, doesn't have that many followers.   But, you know, you you   we are not building   anything greater, or we're not how how do we expand this? How do we make more money orders on this? How do we increase liquidity?   You know, like, those are the things that, like, are very important.  

Or   like, someone just made a good point. How do we build a better peer to peer answer? Like, how do we build how do people build a better Bitcoin community within their own circles, within their own local communities? You know, like, those are the things, and that's why I love, like, I love going to meetups, and I love seeing people, and it's and it's because, like, that's where that is where exchanges happen. That's where people buying stuff should happen. Right? Okay. I mean, so I agree that, I mean, we we we all should be  

[01:57:44] Unknown:

trying to build   those options. And I think, you know, if you look at   companies out there, and as an example,   you know, I I   so if one of my sponsors is Huddl Huddl. Right? So that's an example.   I'm also investing in other as an investor, I might invest in companies that are doing these kinds of things or helping people,   use or interact in no KYC or less KYC ways. So as an example,   you you know, as an investor, you might be as an example, like, Bitrefill   helps people   interact   without having to KYC everything. Right? You might be able to purchase things without KYC. So, you know, and I think, in in the context of community meetups and things like that, Right? As a as a meetup, I was a long time meetup organizer with Bitcoin Sydney, and when I'm in person, I'm teaching people, then I'm also talking   as part as one of the things I'm educating about is, hey. This is if you are interested in the non k y c option. So I think   for many of us   full prong. Right? I'm helping promote various projects that things more privately or use Bitcoin more privately. So   I I I think from my point of view, I'm just seeing it as there are multiple prongs that I'm trying to teach and push on  

[01:59:03] Unknown:

those different directions. So at least that's that's my answer. I mean, it is and and there is no changing this the the the adoption curve or or whatever.   There is no   you you haven't heard an answer as to how you stop people from initially doing KYC   because there isn't one,   because that's, I that's quite obviously the road that has been laid out before us. That's that's the nudge and the push and the   elbow over until we've got a nice open road right here. It's very simple. All you gotta do is, you know, take this cute little picture standing next to this piece of paper and wait, you know, 2 or 3 days, and that'll approve you. And then you're allowed to buy Bitcoin.   You know, just wait for wait to get approved, and then you're, you know, you're in this permissionless system. It's no. Actually, it's not permissionless.  

K y c already is cutting people off. It's not, you know, a matter of in the future, when are we gonna stop people from,   you know, is KYC gonna get more restrictive and stop people? It already is. You know? Like,   yes, there's a philosophical point about it being exclusionary and   Bitcoin being inclusionary, but there's also a very real point that KYC actually does exclude people right now today   from, you know, partaking in society the way that they normally would. But the   all that beside,   this thing we're talking about is is Bitcoin, and it's so different   than stocks or real estate or anything else like this. Everybody   recognized that this this asset, this is a paradigm shift. This is not, you know, the same as having a KYC house or it's it's this is different.  

This is the one thing that we can own, truly own.   And I just don't if there's a way   that once people are in, whether they come in through KYC or whether they never touch KYC, they first got some at a meetup one place, it it doesn't matter.   It doesn't matter how they got to this point. It's the point that I am trying to make about our about audiences   is when we're talking to the people we're talking to at the time we're talking to them, I just don't understand. Like, there's   we may be talking to them about Bitcoin, how Bitcoin works, how to hold your own keys, how to do all your stuff, But I've seriously doubt that anyone is going over the KYC procedure with them. It's just like it's not even discussed.   You don't talk about how, you know, you're gonna have to go and do this KYC procedure, and here's the best way to do it. Like, that's not that's not even discussed. We're talking about Bitcoin, how you own Bitcoin, how you transact with Bitcoin.  

The KYC doesn't matter, and that's how it should be.   So I don't feel like we have to, like,   sway them away from the KYC option. Like, when you're discussing it with people, there's there is no discussion of KYC. It's only   later when, you know, if we have pointed them at Coinbase or pointed them at Kraken that, you know, then it pops up and it says, why what is this?   So where if they come in through Coinbase   as I did, not understanding what Bitcoin is,   fine. It doesn't it it that's that's that's I don't see the big issue with that. Obviously, I would love if it all just disappeared today, but that's not reality.   The reality is most people today are going to come in through pay y c. So knowing that reality, the way I deal with that is not by wishing it goes away. It's by wishing that we have as many people as possible in the communities.  

As soon as these people join those communities, this is one of the first things that they see. That's the best I can do to fight back against it. That's how I deal with with k y c being a reality of our existence.  

[02:02:51] Unknown:

Go, Matt.  

[02:02:58] Unknown:

So,   I mean, this has been   a fucking fantastic conversation so far.   We're at the 2 hour point.   First of all, I appreciate you all.   Big   civil dispatch has been focused on actual discussion.   That is the the main,   reason   this show exists in the first place and why we come back every Bitcoin Tuesday.   I'd be curious   to go over,   the basics,   for someone   who has listened to this conversation for the last 2 hours and is interested   in not providing their intimate personal information   to acquire Bitcoin,   How might they go about that?   I I figured either Diverter or Zelco can jump in here and   and go through their their list of advice in that in that regard.  



[02:03:54] Unknown:

Sure. There's   many different ways depending on on   your situation,   and and where you reside in the world.   It's certainly not as easy as,   finding a KYC exchange, but, you know, I would argue the KYC procedure is, you know, a pretty big inconvenience in itself. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's more inconvenient, but it's certainly easier to find exchanges,   to buy KYC Bitcoin.   The problem with,   a lot of these   peer to peer type exchanges many times,   is   we're purposely stepping outside,   government regulation.   That's that's   the reason that we're doing it. So the   the it's great, but the bad part about that is,   it still has to be regulated. It's gotta be regulated   somehow.  

So we have to regulate that ourselves. So that's where these reputation   systems, you know, come into play,   and it's where things like escrow happen. And the reason I mentioned this is because when you go to a site, like, say, you wanted to purchase your 1st Bitcoin   and you pull up DISC.   Alright?   You're not gonna be able to purchase your 1st Bitcoin at DISC. Because on this, you're gonna need a little bit of Bitcoin   in order to put up for the security deposit   to then make your trade.   So this is already out as a first touch.   But,   you know, obviously, there's plenty of ways you seed yourself, friends, family, meetups, whatever you wanted to do. You know, I've actually seeded a couple of people on Twitter, believe this or not,   and I actually gave you my stats back.  

But,   it's it's it Biscuit is not the easiest thing in the world. It's not the easiest thing to run.   You have, as Stefan mentioned,   one of his sponsors, HODO HODL, and I I really like HODL HODL. They are a little bit different in that   BISK is what you would actually call a true peer to peer exchange. Like, there is no 2 of 3 multisig. It's a 2 of 2. It's just you and your peer.   In this, they're gonna hold one of the keys in that transaction. So you can actually go through the process of buying Bitcoin, and you don't actually have to have   Bitcoin necessarily in order to do that there.  

So   the real   problem,   initially, with coming into Bitcoin OKYC, if you're coming fresh with nothing,   is that you're probably going to need a little bit of Bitcoin to make it easier in order to get there. So that's a real problem. That's why, you know, like I've said, I I don't think that the the vast majority of people will come in through KYC.   But once you're ready to go to the no KYC route, you've got this, you've got HODL HODL,   you've got,   ATMs   depending on where you're at.   Some of these ATMs, you can   accomplish buying Bitcoin up to certain amounts without having to provide   any identification.  

There's a couple articles. There's some great there's a great, article on bitcoiner.guide,   bitcoin q and a site that goes over, 10 steps, I believe it is to purchase your first no KYC sats.   So there's there's many different ways. You can go on a coin ATM radar, search an ATM. You can hit a meetup,   you know, many different ways. But the main ones are gonna be peer to peer online exchanges like this, huddlehuddle,   local coin swap. And that's why, you know, again, I'd I'd like to see more of these. I'd like to see them more robust and and become just easier to use. So first of all,  

[02:07:35] Unknown:

I mean, that was a good answer. Diverter, I think, was a little bit wordy.   You don't you don't do this twice a week like I do.   First of all first of all, if you're a Bitcoiner listening to this and you're onboarding friends and family,   you know, don't don't send them a link to sign up to a KYC exchange exchange if they're interested in Bitcoin. Like, the first thing you should do is   have them pay for dinner with their fiat,   and pay them in Bitcoin. Have them self custody it. Have them actually appreciate Bitcoin for what it truly is.   On onboard them in a responsible way. If they're your friends or family, like, if there's someone you care about, do that.  

The Bitcoin ATM point,   that Diverter mentioned there   is grossly understated.   At least in most of the United States, there are ATMs that only require a phone number to purchase Bitcoin.   Now they're gonna charge you a little bit more money.   You know, you're not giving up your privacy, so instead, you're gonna pay a slight premium on the Bitcoin.   They will require a phone number most of the time. You can use a service like silent.link,   to get a burner phone number with coin, or you can go and pay cash at one of those, you know,   little,   cell phone stores. Usually, you're you're better off if you're gonna buy a prepaid   SIM to buy it, at one of those small, like, cell phone specific stores rather than, like, a Best Buy or something like that.  

We have mining. I had diverter on for civil dispatch 31 civil dispatch.com   /cd31,   or in your favorite podcast app, just go to episode 31.   We talk about getting started with home mining.   You can accept Bitcoin for goods and services.   You know, we have these   we have this this this concept, I don't know, that that Bitcorners can figure out cold storage, that normies can figure out cold storage,   they can figure out how to run a lightning node,   but they can't figure out how to accept Bitcoin for goods and services. Like, there   when I lived in New York, there were bodegas that were just basically cash only businesses. Why were they cash only businesses?  

I mean, you could read between the lines there. They fucking figured it out, and they wanted they wanted better money that wasn't being tracked and wasn't being surveilled.   So there are a bunch of options available to people to acquire Bitcoin   without   providing intimate personal information that can be accessed by criminals that can be used against you in the future.   And I think it's prudent for every Bitcoiner   to basically, as they're going through this onboarding process, as they're helping friends and family,   escape this failed system,   that they do so in a in a responsible way. And and to just say that   that it's completely lost, that the fight is lost   is is a loser's ideology because, ultimately,   it's only gonna get worse from here. I mean, it's been said multiple times over this last 2 hours   that no KYC   was a fundamental part of Bitcoin culture   up until 2017, 2018. It fucking turned. It turned super fucking quick.  

And Bitcoin Twitter, I think, was a large part of that. It was a large part of people being scared to talk about it, and and being scared of being persecuted and prosecuted and fucking   thrown under the bus,   which, to be quite honest, I'm scared about all the time.   But if we're gonna actually sit here and talk about   this being a worthy fight,   then let's actually make it a worthy fight, because it only gets worse from here, and the only thing   standing between it getting absolutely   worse from here   is us. Like, there's nobody else standing between that from happening.   Because if you don't think that there are gonna be more restrictions on regulated   services   going forward,   where the fuck have you been for the last 2 years?  

Everyone just fucking   rolled over as small businesses got crushed, as privacy got crushed, as freedom of movement got crushed, as freedom of speech got crushed,   and nobody cares about Bitcoin. The overwhelming majority of people don't care about Bitcoin,   except for us.   It comes down to us, and it comes down to personal responsibility.  

[02:11:50] Unknown:

I mean, it it like, I mean, divergence is the best. Right? Like, when when you're talking about being a fighter, but it's, like, how willing is the   the majority of Bitcoiners,   right, willing to defend their their Bitcoin   when the state comes knocking on your door? Right? Like, that's really what it comes down to. Like, I am hard pressed to believe that many people are gonna have the state come knock on your door,   and you just say, oh, like, it was a it was a boating accident. Like, that that whole narrative was obviously a meme, but, like, people actually believed it, you know, and it and it comes down to like that,   what we say, and especially like those who have a lot of followers, like what you say and how you say it, like, those things matter. You know? Because,   you know, it's trying to write off your KYC as a, oh, it's boating accident or, oh, it it I lost it.  

Like, I don't have it anymore. Like, if you think that that's that means that you're not accountable for it, like, we're wrong. You know? Like, KYC is forever. It doesn't matter what you what you do after that.   Like, it doesn't matter at all. 0%. It doesn't matter. Like, you you like, if you the state's coming for you, they're gonna come for you. And   if your stats are KYC'd,   you know, like, what are you gonna do? And you have to ask yourself that. I can't answer that for anybody.   I can only answer that for myself.   But   what what are you willing to do? And if you're a a Bitcoiner and you believe in the ethos, you believe in what Bitcoin is about, you believe in,   you know, what this movement is for,   then   you need to be ready to fight. And if you're not ready to fight, then it might not be time for you, and that's okay. You know? Like but if I'm on Twitter and you're fighting me saying that, you know,   KYC is the is the path to   to enlightenment,   like, you're wrong. Like, I'm not like, I and I don't think either I don't think anybody on here has came up and said, KYC is the way. That's not been the argument that anybody had, so don't take that personally. But,   like, I I see it. I see it online, and it is mind blowing. It's disheartening,   you know, because,   you know, maybe this is just strong from, like, the privacy,   you know, sector of Bitcoin, but, like,   when you're, like, seeing this stuff and you're we're so focused on, like, trying to make Bitcoin what it what it was,   trying to maintain that   ideology of what Bitcoin was all about,   and then people are online just saying, like, oh, like, just hold just hold until the state dies, and, you know, just say it was a boating accident if they come for you. Like, that is insane.  

And that's why I asked that question earlier. Right? Like, how much regulation on the KYC and how many people need to be shut down   or not not allowed to buy, you know, like, the how many people try to ask permission to buy Bitcoin on a KYC exchange and get denied until   until everyone stops and says, oh, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't be pushing KYC anymore. Maybe we should   be changing our mindset.   So, you know, like, that that's synonymous, you know, peer to peer transactions.   Like, that's gone.   At the end of the day, if we were to to play this all the way out, if KYC is the end, if every set is KYC,   where where what do we have? Is it Bitcoin?  



[02:15:17] Unknown:

You know, there's there's trillions of regulated wealth that's going to be coming into Bitcoin. And and most of the actors behind that wealth, they're not necessarily   interested in defeating the state. What they wanna do is survive the state, if that makes sense.   And,   you know, at the same time, I think there's a growing   remnant,   who really want to create the Bitcoin era, and I think we should contribute to that. And and and but, you know, it's it is a progression, and we just have to play it   to the end that we wanna see.  

[02:15:54] Unknown:

Thank you, guys. I mean, I I think this has been   a a really productive conversation. I appreciate you all for joining us.   I hope the freaks enjoyed it.   I know I did.   I I think, you know, we're hit we're hitting the 2 hour and 15 minute mark. I'm starting to feel for Stefan a little bit because I know his time zone.   I think we should wrap this baby up. I'm gonna proceed with final thoughts.   Final thoughts. Stefan, we'll start with you.  

[02:16:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure. So thanks again. I think the way I'm seeing it, I see this as a battle that has to be fought on multiple fronts. I believe I know I I don't like politics. I wish we could live in a world that was fully free market, but I think part of that is   growing that base and energizing and doing anything you can to educate and promote and help that remnant base of people, the ones who are gonna fight it and the ones who are gonna try to do something about this, whether that's in the non KYC world or in the KYC world. So   I see this as trying to build out the tools that's ideally the open source software and hardware, the technology, as well as businesses   that are helping people,   you know, enable them in some way in terms of Bitcoin education or stacking SATs or   whatever it is, whether that's, you know, earning and using your own,   node to stack your SATS by selling your services.  

I think those are things that we can focus on.   So, yeah, so I think those are probably the key   messages I would leave for people out there. And, of course, if people wanna find me, that's stephanlovera.com,   and you can find me on Twitter at stephanlovera.  

[02:17:35] Unknown:

Thanks, Stefan.   Diverter, final thoughts?  

[02:17:42] Unknown:

Yeah.   Sure. I thought I was sure you were gonna save the best for last.   Caught me off guard there. Yeah. Absolutely.   No. But seriously, it's been a it's been a good conversation. I appreciate you all coming on here. Stefan, laser, hold on.   It's it's it's not easy to come on and have these conversations and especially   when you have the potential to be on the side that, you know,   doesn't look so great. So I appreciate you guys coming on here and and articulating   your positions.   Stefan, obviously,   you do great work. Appreciate you having me on the podcast and all the stuff that you do.   Hope you keep it up. Laser,   I appreciate your takes as well, man. I hope I could pull you on over the no KYC side and and get you all the way over here.  

But I appreciate the conversation. I just hope everybody takes into account all of the factors whenever they,   really start getting into Bitcoin and and understanding what it is that they're in here for,   and   what that means down the road potentially.   If this is a speculative asset for you and you don't necessarily care about anything else that that's you're perfectly you know, it's a permissionless network for a reason. Everybody can have their piece of this from corporations on down to anybody.   But anybody that I talk to that I that I have the ability to speak to about Bitcoin,   it's gonna be a a a paramount.  

One of the most important things that I discussed with them is that it's important to be able to be fully permissionless   and not have to,   register anything that you do with the state   just so that   what you own, you truly own  

[02:19:28] Unknown:

from now till wherever you decide to part with it. So it's been a great conversation, guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Denver. I truly appreciate your work. I appreciate your voice. It was a pleasure to meet you finally in person,   a couple months back.   And I Yep. We'll do that again soon. Fuck yes. I was gonna say I look forward to, doing it again soon.   Laser, final thoughts.  

[02:19:55] Unknown:

Let's see.   Well, it was great. And it's not hard being on the,   the descending side. I think, you know, everyone here wants to see default forward privacy. Everyone here wants to see folks building a no KYC stash. Everyone here wants to see,   KYC and just government,   you know, white knuckled grip on on financial surveillance,   be deteriorated so that the individual and families are free. We're talking about how to do that. My view is just that I don't think it's I don't think the state disappears overnight.   I think,   you know, we should have a remnant because that's important to game theory and we should grow that.  

And we should have this irreversible,   unstoppable   escape hatch, and we should grow that as people move down the, Bitcoin progression.   But at the same time, like, a lot of the big boy,   stuff happens,   in the game theory of mass adoption. And that's why, you know, that's why I think through politics even though I don't love politics. I think through it because I think it's important.   The the legitimization   of Bitcoin, I think, is a underappreciated,   geopolitical,   strategy for what we're after. So, you know, I   I I sit in this interesting place where I'm creating a remnant, but I'm speaking to conservative families.  

You know. So I do appreciate the privacy NIMs.   So thanks.  

[02:21:21] Unknown:

Thanks, Lazer. Final thoughts, Zelco.  

[02:21:25] Unknown:

Well, first, yeah, thanks for everybody coming on and defending your guys' positions and,   just kinda talking about it. And, again, I I think it's pretty apparent   that,   it's acknowledged that no KYC Bitcoin is greater than, KYC Bitcoin,   but,   you know, and and, yeah, everyone does care about forward,   forward privacy,   which, of course, you only get with, Sam or Walts, Whirlpool.   But, you know, that said, I think it was really great discussion,   and,   you know, hopefully,   my goal is really just that people are, like, conscious and, and cognizant of, like, how they're   how they're onboarding people. You know? Don't sell their souls for the devil nuts, and that's not, like, just for anybody on here, and that's that's not   an attack on anybody in particular. But, like, just understand that, like, when it comes down to it, push comes to shove,   you know, the the state's gonna come for come for their money.  

So,   you know, let's opt out the right way.   So, yeah, I, I had a great talk, and   I definitely hope to meet up with all you guys again,   what, at Miami, probably. And,   and, yeah, it was a it was a good time. Oh, by the way,   our,   our run dojo tantos, we're gonna be   we just sold out of our 1st batch to the US, but the EU and UK   will be, will be coming soon. So, stay tuned for announcements for that to get released.   Super excited, and we got some other fun stuff about to pull out. So I had to give a little shout out to my team for that.  

[02:23:03] Unknown:

You couldn't help yourself. I was about to give you   a.   Thank thank you, Zelco.   Zelco is is one of the main guys behind the Ronin Dojo project, and they just released this Tanto node,   which is it's like a pure block of steel. This thing is fucking awesome.   Definitely go check that out. What is that? RoninDojo.   Io?  

[02:23:29] Unknown:

Yeah. We're actually about to release a brand new, completely redesigned site, but,   yeah, you can check it all out at, shop.runendojo.io   or, yeah, our main site's atrundojo.io.   But,  

[02:23:42] Unknown:

stay tuned for that announcement of the new website. It's gonna be, it's gonna be pretty. And I had the pleasure of meeting, Zelco and his his whole family at Bitblock Boom this year. So,   that was that was truly a pleasure, and,   it it was an honor. And I look forward to, kicking with you in Miami   and Absolutely. Hopefully many years to come.   So, guys,   to all the guests, thank you so much for participating in in dispatch.   I know it's a very unique experience. Huge shout out to the rider to die freaks who joined us in the live chat.   Reminder to everyone listening to this on the podcast feeds   that this will be the last show on the TFTC   podcast feed. So if you want to continue listening on podcast feeds, you're gonna have to open up your podcast app and search Silly Dispatch and subscribe to the dispatch specific feed.  

Also, another reminder   that,   the chat has now moved to matrix,   open source.   Good news.   You can find that at citadel.chat,   and that conversation continues throughout the whole week, not just on Bitcoin Tuesdays. It's a very lively discussion. We have almost   500 ride or die freaks in there right now, so definitely come check it out.   And with all that said, I love you all. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for coming. Cheers.   Run, boy, run. This world is not bad for you. Run, boy, run.   They're   by running. Break out from society.   Love you, freaks.  

We have a wrap up all recap   on Thursday,   and, we have another Bitcoin Tuesday,   next Tuesday,   with 2 Venezuelan Bitcoiners. This should be a really great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Just remember,   no one no one else is gonna do shit for you. At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal responsibility,   and you're gonna have to figure it out yourself. You're gonna have to understand the trade offs. You're gonna have to make your own decisions,   and it's not gonna be easy.   There will probably be darkness.   But if we do it right, we can make that darkness   as minimal as possible and get through it together. I love you all. Stay humble. Stacksides.  



[02:29:33] Unknown:

Thank you, savvy.