Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 47

BLOCK: 713088

PRICE: 1959 sats per dollar

TOPICS: the future of bitcoin nodes, nodlito, cloud services, tradeoffs, el salvador, custodial wallets, hardware failures, mesh nets, onboarding merchants in the developing world

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

I said I  

[00:00:01] Unknown:

Crypto. Has the Solomon family changed its view on crypto? Do you do you own Bitcoin or Ethereum personally? I don't I don't personally own Bitcoin or Ethereum, and I don't I I don't have a strong view. When you say I've changed my view, I don't I don't know what you think my view is. My view on on on Bitcoin, for example, is I really don't know, but it's really not something, you know, individually that's important to me. Right. I'm a big believer   in the digitization,   that is occurring and the disruption that's occurring   in the way financial services are delivered, as I said to you, both for institutions and for individuals. I think it's a massive shift.  

We're trying to participate in it Right. Based on what we're doing around Goldman Sachs Marcus and our digital banking platform. Do you want your clients in it? I'm sorry? Do you want your clients in it? I I want our clients to to to do what they think they wanna do. As a speculative asset, is it interesting, and are some of our clients participating?   Absolutely.   But   whether it goes up or down, my guess is look at the last week. It's gonna go up. It's gonna go down. I don't know what the permanent state of Bitcoin is, but I think Bitcoin   is really not the key thing. The key thing   is how can blockchain or other technologies that are not developed yet accelerate the pace of the digitization   of the way financial services are delivered. And I, you know, I just talked to you about our digital bank. You know that we just made an announcement   out at AWS   reinvent Yep. About a platform, the financial cloud, that we're building in partnership with AWS for institutional clients.  

All of that is the changing of the digital processes   that kinda lubricate the way financial services are delivered. And I think that's a big opportunity and we're excited about that. And that gives your clients it's almost direct  

[00:02:11] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch,   the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   That dude on the clip   was the CEO of Goldman Sachs showing the whole world that he is   completely unaware of the revolution that is Bitcoin. If you do not think it's early,   you are not gonna make it.   We have a very special,   show on deck here for you today. It's a conversation that I've been looking forward to,   with 2 good friends.   Before we get started, I just wanted to do a shout out to the ride or die who continue to support the show, keep it ad free and sponsor free, and focus on actionable Bitcoin discussion.  

You guys,   make this   you make dispatch happen every week, and I really do appreciate it.   And a massive shout out to the rider dive freaks who join us in the live chat, providing your comments and your questions.   You make this show unique. Keep it coming. I do appreciate you.   The easiest way to support dispatch   is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites   are Fountain Podcasts and Breeze. That's b r e e z.   If you use those apps, you can load it up with sats, you can search Citadel dispatch, and you can stream sats directly to my lightning note. You can also support the show by going to sidildispatch.com, where you can support it through lightning   or through my samurai painting, which is Odell. Very easy to remember. So thank you again for your support.  

You can also buy a hat if you wanna support the show. A lot of freaks prefer to go that method. They've been sold out for a long time, but they are back in stock,   and they are shipping globally. They should arrive   before Christmas unless   you're located in Australia   where shipping takes longer, and then they'll probably arrive 1st week of January.   If you wanna hack, cildispatch.com/stack,   you can also get a flask,   magnets, or pins through that link. So thank you, freaks.   This is serial dispatch 47.   We're gonna be focusing on the future Bitcoin nodes and specifically   Nodal's new Nodalito.  

They're calling it the Nodal Lite, but I hope by the end of this conversation,   we will have agreed that it will be referred to as the Nautilito going forward.   I got 2 of my good friends here, the founders of Nautil.   We have KetoMiner, return guest. How's it going, KetoMiner?  

[00:04:50] Unknown:

What's up, Chris? Good to be here again.  

[00:04:52] Unknown:

And we have Asquuu. How's it going, Asquuu?   I'm good. Good. Hi, guys. I think it's Asquoo's first time on dispatch, so give him a warm welcome. Thank you for finally joining us.   Mhmm. So first off,   my head's a little all over the place. I am in the process of moving. I'm literally surrounded by boxes right now, so I apologize to the freaks,   if you can tell.   We're gonna make this conversation the show must go on, so we're gonna make this conversation happen, and I am looking forward to it.   We have where should we get started? I I think, an interesting place to get started here   is ask who just got back from El Salvador. What were your experiences like in El Salvador? Did it change, like, your view on how how to move forward both as a Bitcoiner and, you know, as as a founder of a Bitcoin company focused on notes?  



[00:05:46] Unknown:

I don't know.   I I   you just mentioned Nautilato, actually. I was reading through the comments. You know, the moment you start the show, the comments pour in, which is really funny. And before you said anything,   Crypto Clydesdale,   went up and said something about Nautilato.   So one of the things that I'm really curious about here is,   does that name catch on? Because,   you're you're a big supporter of it, I think.   Quincher is the one who came up with it, and and we kinda like it. It's growing on us. So if anybody wants to tell us how how they feel about it, I'm I'm really curious. I mean, Nautilito is clearly the better better name. It seems to be. So we we will not be sure by the end of the show. It's the lit it's the little Nautil.  

[00:06:34] Unknown:

It's like a perfect Exactly. Yeah. Sam agrees.   So, I mean, we can jump in we can just jump directly into the Natalito. I mean, we have a lot to talk about there. But before we I'm not gonna just let you off the hook. El Salvador didn't your experience in El Salvador didn't change your perspective at all?  

[00:06:52] Unknown:

It   was,   a little bit of an eye opener   just because,   I think it's a new stage.   I agree with you when you say it's super early. I still think it's super early. I tell everybody who wants to hear that it's still super early. But   I think when we launched the first model a few years ago,   Lightning had just come out, and it wasn't that big of a deal yet.   It's really become a big deal lightning last year, and,   we felt a big difference.   And now, like, countries being onboarded to Bitcoin is another big stage.   And,   you know, you would have told me that a couple years ago.  

That's what we wanted to see,   but I didn't think it was that close.   And,   it's here. It's real. I mean, it it's, it's a really big deal. So,   it's, it's very humbling to see how much has been done   and yet, you know, just just realize how much you still have to do in a in a way. But it's catching on big time big time.   So And anybody who's missed it, really, I mean, it's stupid not to go. You you should go within the year. You know? Go check it out.  

[00:08:08] Unknown:

Are you you're talking to me?  

[00:08:09] Unknown:

Well, no.   Yes. I am.   I'm talking to you, Theo.  

[00:08:14] Unknown:

Asquuu made sure to,   he he he made he made sure to,   message me   many times   about me not making the trip to El Salvador yet and not going down with him. So I do I will apologize to you on air that I wasn't able to make it happen,   but I do intend to go very soon. I think he also,   you, like, sent out a subtweet where you were kind of,   going after me a little bit for not going. So I didn't notice that. Just a personal message. Just you.  

[00:08:47] Unknown:

It's probably a good idea to go outside of this conference context, though,  

[00:08:52] Unknown:

to see what it really looks like. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was my excuse as well. But,   at the end of the day, it's an excuse.  

[00:09:01] Unknown:

Yeah. But I think, a lot of people said, and that's how I feel at least, you know, come back every year for 5 years, see how much of a difference, like,   you can notice   on-site   is probably really smart thing to do.   But that being said,   Bitcoiners are just gonna pour in every single week,   into the country.   And not only, like, San Salvador, Al Zante, etcetera, but, like, all over the place,   probably the neighboring countries too.   And, they'll get a continuous flow of Bitcoiners coming in now. And and that, I think, is really interesting. So you can go whenever you want, really.  

[00:09:39] Unknown:

Love it.   Yeah.   Were you there for the actual when they announced the Bitcoin City and the Bitcoin Bonds?  

[00:09:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was getting a round of beers for the friends.  

[00:09:51] Unknown:

What were your what were your thoughts on that?  

[00:09:59] Unknown:

It it was a a weird experience. I think,   you get into the the because it's a night club, basically. You go into the night club. You wait for the president for 2 hours till it fills up. It's really packed.   ACDC,   fireworks, all that shit. You know? But,   it was the first time when you enter the club, instead of having, like, a VIP   lane, you have the big corner lane kind of thing. So they park us all in front of him.   And   while he makes his announcement, he's actually looking at us. Like, it's the first time, like, people talk to us as a Bitcoin crowd directly   saying,   it's you guys we want here because   we believe in what you guys are doing. There's value that you guys add   that we think beats the market.  

And,   we want to make it known to the entire world that we're we're gonna cater to you and compete with them on, you know, taxes and basically   economic strategy.   So it's the first time   like, a government talks to us as Bitcoiners.   And I was there in the crowd, and it's kinda weird.   Mixed feelings,   but it's interesting.  

[00:11:09] Unknown:

It's been something that a lot of us, Bitcoiners, have been expecting for a while, and it's kinda unreal. I mean, I wasn't there, but I I saw, you know, the tweets coming out live,   as it was happening. It's kinda unreal to see it happen. I mean,   you know, friend of   good friend Parker Lewis, you know, he he likes to say gradually then suddenly, and it really felt like a gradually then suddenly kinda situation where   up until the exact point where it happens, it feels like, oh, well, it will take a while, before you start to see a nation state really court Bitcoiners   and and lean into Bitcoin hard and and actually have, you know, a relatively coherent   long term Bitcoin strategy.  

And then before you know it, it's actually happening,  

[00:11:54] Unknown:

which is pretty crazy. Yeah. And I think that's the experience. Once you you go there and you see it, you're like, well,   it doesn't make that much difference, and yet the world will never be the same again   because they took that extra step.   And it's nice to be there to see it.  

[00:12:10] Unknown:

And now everyone's like, okay. What's what's the next country? You, like, immediately move on to   where where where do we go here from here? You know?  

[00:12:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I guess that's one of my hopes that several countries follow-up   soon   so that they don't get to be singled out and become too big of a target, because   I'd be afraid if I were him.   That's one thing. And,   2, so that they can run their own experiments and potentially do it differently because, you know, that's just one example. They'll do it one way. There's probably other ways to do it.   The more the better, I guess.  

[00:12:46] Unknown:

100%. I mean, it's just like everything else in Bitcoin.   When you when you have a first mover,   they obviously have an advantage, but   in terms of censorship resistance and   distribution, you you you want you want some competition there. You want other people joining the fray.   I think it's as true for   countries as it is for ASIC producers or node producers   or wallets, mobile wallets, what whatever it is in Bitcoin land,   you want as many options as possible, and they kind of help protect each other. Absolutely.   Let's,   let's bring it back to Nodl. I mean, so Nodl is a company that you guys both founded,   that was at the forefront of this idea of a plug and play note box.  

I remember when the first model came out,   all these players that you see today didn't really exist.   I'm pretty sure my note didn't exist. Umbral didn't exist.   I don't think Raspberry Pi Blitz existed yet, but the Raspberry Pi Bolt project existed.   I think you already did, but some very early version of it. Yeah. It was super early. Lightning was super early. I had the original model.   I think I was, like, one of the first 10 or 15 people to have the original model.   When was that? What year was that? 2019, 2018?  

[00:14:14] Unknown:

2018, I believe. Yeah. End of 2018.  

[00:14:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Yes.   So we had so I think I got the original model 20, like, January 2019.  

[00:14:24] Unknown:

Yeah. You got the one on 1st 21.  

[00:14:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I still have it. You guys signed it.   Then you came out with the Nautil Dojo,   which is a more high end box.   It had redundant   drives on it, redundant,   SSDs. It it was encrypted by default.   It had a kill switch. It still exists. You guys still sell it.   I guess I came, like, a year later. I have the first one that was produced.   Very proudly still own both of those nozzles.   And now we have this new product, the Nodalite. So those first two nozzles   were very much geared to the enthusiast crowd,   to the Bitcoiner that is obsessed with Bitcoin,   that wants to   upgrade their experience and tinker with the tools.  

It feels like the Nautilito,   or the Nautilite, as you call it, is   is a is a different approach here. It's it's geared towards   this,   this this new   class of Bitcoiner that's, you know, maybe a merchant, maybe in a developing world, maybe doesn't really know that much about Bitcoin yet.   What is your perspective there on on how   you view your customers evolving and,   you know, the birth of the Natalito?  

[00:15:48] Unknown:

Well, we   we think that not   everybody wants to   host,   their box at home or in their office because some people can't and some people,   just don't have   a good place for that or good connectivity   or or whatever.   So we we actually started with an old cloud, which is the cloud version of the of the boxes. It provides the same service as it runs your full node,   Bitcoin core with   LNG, BTC, pay server, the whole stack.   And   then we started thinking, like, not everybody wants to run, like, the full stack, and not everybody needs to run the full stack.   But having   the   the lightning node running   in some hosting provider actually   is a kind of custody.  

And what we wanted to solve is, like, the user will still still run the lightning part,   behind some shitty connection   as long as it's connected 247.   Doesn't have to be fast. It doesn't have to be very reliable.   And use all the older services which don't include any wireless. Because for if you run the TCP server in the cloud, it doesn't have any private keys. It only have has your XPAD.   And for Lightning, you still need this this LND or c lightning or whatever running somewhere. So instead of trying some hybrid app approach like,   that's,   blockchain project. I forgot the name.  

Just started our voltage,   who, like, split the keys between the node and your computer.   We said, okay. Let's just put the LND   on premises.   You own your LND. It's in a box in your place. VPNs back   to   to our servers running BTC pay server, or it can also VPN back to a big node or running somewhere else. So you can have, like,   one node of running in some community, and then people are,   just connecting additional   LNDs to that node.   Yeah. That that that that's a big idea behind it. And,   yeah, of course, there is, like, an opportunity to make something lighter and cheaper. So emerging markets are probably a good place to to try to sell that,   but it's not, like, the first reason for doing it.  



[00:18:30] Unknown:

So, I mean, I kind of   jumped jumped the gun here. We have the Nautilite,   to the people who are watching the video streams. And just to remind everyone,   all of our   our our fantastic dispatch audience. If you are new to dispatch, the way you can participate in the live chat or   or watch it live through video   is through Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.   You can access those links at cildispatch.com   when we're doing the show.   The videos are posted afterwards to bitcointv.com,   and they're also still available on YouTube and Twitch. All those links are at silodiscatch.com.   To our people that are are watching it,   I'm gonna bring up a little picture of the Nautilito.  

So   the idea of the Nautilito   is   a low cost device.   Wait. What is it? The idea of the Nautilito is a low cost device that runs lightning locally for a merchant.  

[00:19:35] Unknown:

Yeah.   So yeah. So let let's debunk many things that people asked on on Twitter so far. Like, it's not a satellite device. It's not a mesh device. It's,   it has only Ethernet and Wi Fi.   We are working on other things with satellites and mesh networks, but that's that's a story for another day. This one is just a simple,   LND in a box with a VPN capability to to   dial back into a centralized BTC pay server.  

[00:20:07] Unknown:

So it's not running Bitcoin   It's not running Bitcoin Core on the device.   It's not running BTCPay on the device.   It's only running LND.  

[00:20:19] Unknown:

Yeah.   LND plus the tooling around LND. So RTO,   those things relay and so on.   Only small things.  

[00:20:29] Unknown:

Originally,  

[00:20:32] Unknown:

the idea came   after,   the announcement by Jack Mahler that, El Salvador was gonna pass that new law. You know?   And when we heard about El Salvador, I think so. We   like, Quito was thinking,   this is gonna happen super fast. They're gonna have to convert an entire country. Merchants that have gone are gonna have to be onboarded fast, etcetera.   What could we potentially do,   not necessarily us, but anyone,   to kind of prevent them from being onboarded to, like, custodial tools, private tools, etcetera, etcetera.   So that was the question really. Then when we looked at what we did with Nodl,   we thought there's no real way for us to service them because   the devices we build,   you know, you are are great for what they do,   but you can't really sell those devices to people there   because of the price, because of the knowledge needed maybe to operate them, etcetera, etcetera.  

And,   eventually, Keto came up with the approach of saying,   you want users,   end users, to actually have their own keys, control their own keys, the l and d keys, if if they're running a BTCPay store.   And they need to have a device to do it, but they don't necessarily   need the processing behind, like, Bitcoin Core actually running BTC Pay Server, etcetera,   that we could do for them with the infrastructure. And then he came up with a solution,   which is kinda hybrid and new because I don't think anybody does that kind of stuff today. But, you know, that's part of the reasoning.  

[00:22:14] Unknown:

So when you talk about custodial solutions, I mean, you were in El Salvador.   I saw the video,   and heard you in the background,   where they were having issues with Chivo, which is the government's,   custodial wallet   that they provide.   This is supposed to be an alternative for a merchant there instead of using something like that or using a different mobile wallet. Correct?  

[00:22:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could be. But then you could use it in any other country too, you know. But then from a price perspective,   you could probably   help people   there with, like, simpler, lighter devices,   and that's the first step in that direction.  

[00:22:58] Unknown:

So the the main thought here is   by removing   Bitcoin d, removing Bitcoin Core, removing   BTCPay,   putting those in the   in your cloud infrastructure, which, by the way, a lot of freaks probably aren't aware,   you guys, for the last year or so, have been working on building out Nautle Cloud,   which is a key aspect of this component here. The a key aspect of the Nautilito is that you have this Nautil cloud infrastructure.   The reasoning for removing that is primarily   cost and bandwidth.   Right? Getting the cost down of the Nautilito,   to a sub a $100 price point. I don't think you guys have actually announced the price point yet. Are you gonna announce it on the show?  



[00:23:44] Unknown:

No. We're not. But,   when the news came out sorry.   We'll we'll come back to announce it later. When when the news came out, it came out in, in BTC Mag.   I think they listed under   $200,   which wasn't exactly what we had,   in mind, so it'll be cheaper than that anyways.   Then it just depends what you package,  

[00:24:07] Unknown:

with the hardware because you might have services with it. But that's the main reason. Right? So the main reason is is getting   cost cost and guess get I guess getting cost down. Right? Because   by by moving   Bitcoin Core and BTCPay   to the cloud, you're able to ship a product,   that is less powerful without a without an SSD.  

[00:24:33] Unknown:

Less powerful,   cheaper,   probably leaner if if some of the the management is done somewhere else.   And doesn't,   need as many resources from a network perspective like like Kito mentioned earlier.  

[00:24:50] Unknown:

So how do you envision   so I I guess   so and and there is still some trust here, and it's about minimizing the trust. It's   about it's about the trust trade off. Right?  

[00:25:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think one thing that was interesting   with the El Salvador example was,   the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, actually,   that the team,   at Galloway   are pushing that concept of, like, community   wallets,   community custody, etcetera. And so they have some kind of custodial   model   where keys   I don't know how many keys they have in the community, but there's several people who manage the keys,   for the entire village, basically.  

[00:25:36] Unknown:

And so that's one model. Okay? The the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, specifically, just to go into that, is is the majority of funds are held in multisig   on chain   by trusted members of the community,   and then they have a custodial lightning wallet portion   that is not multisig.   So   in that situation, they're making that trust trade off that even if that Lightning Wallet gets   hacked or compromised   or exit scammed,   the overwhelming majority of funds will still be held in multisig. And as long as a quorum of those trusted community members aren't,   malicious and work together,   those funds should be safe. And as a result, you get an easier UX,   and and you don't have to deal with, like, liquidity issues and stuff like that that we see on Lightning.  



[00:26:29] Unknown:

So so what happens if tomorrow   you have so that's one community that is now famous in the in the entire world because of of of what happened in El Salvador.   There's other   communities, I understand, in other countries that are starting to to build projects   either similar or their own versions of it.   But what if you could have one   full node in a community   and then a bunch of lighter devices   managed by the merchants,   and have an another   model of community setup   where the merchant still manages their their their,   you know, lightning keys.  



[00:27:14] Unknown:

So, presumably,   here,   you could imagine a situation where   there are 40 Nautolitos   in San Salvador,   and then they're connecting instead of connecting to the Nautle cloud   for those   for that back end, they could be connecting to someone's Nautle Dojo that's in the community that they trust.  

[00:27:40] Unknown:

For example.  

[00:27:43] Unknown:

Cool.  

[00:27:44] Unknown:

That's like a a mega,   Uncle Jim model.  

[00:27:47] Unknown:

You're, like, professionalizing the Uncle Jim model.  

[00:27:50] Unknown:

Yeah. And if you do it with an Uncle Dojo with an Arnold Dojo, it's the Uncle Sam model, basically.  

[00:27:56] Unknown:

An Uncle Dojo.   Why is Uncle Sam?  

[00:28:00] Unknown:

Because Samurai Wallet.  

[00:28:02] Unknown:

Oh, okay. Fair enough.   So, okay, so this is interesting. So so when we   when we imagine   when we imagine,   a not Alito in practice, how do you, like, see that   unfolding? Like, I I mean, they're obviously they're still gonna run into   so users are holding their own lightning keys.   That wallet is a hot wallet. That one's always always connected.   They're getting a trusted source of information in terms of of the Bitcoin chain.   What kind of trust do they have to put into that BTCPay   instance?  

[00:28:45] Unknown:

That that's a good question, actually.   Worst case scenario, we could, like, hijack all the BTC pay accounts and point them at our lightning notes instead.   But they, I mean, they they can see on their side in our tier   or or other tools   that the invoice was actually created and paid to their notes.   So, yeah, I think  

[00:29:12] Unknown:

like, future funds. You can, like, man in the middle future funds. Yeah. Yeah. Necessarily claw back the funds that have already been paid and accepted.  

[00:29:21] Unknown:

Yeah. And that that's also true for all chain payments. I could, like, just take a shared DTC pay instance and put my expoB everywhere.  

[00:29:31] Unknown:

And the belief is   that these merchants are gonna be accepting both Onchain and Lightning?  

[00:29:38] Unknown:

Probably   Onchain at least has a fallback.  

[00:29:44] Unknown:

So but are the on chain key are the on chain keys held on the Nautilito as well?  

[00:29:50] Unknown:

There aren't any on chain keys,   just the expo on the BTPC server itself.  

[00:29:55] Unknown:

They they still have a need some type of hardware wallet for the launching part. Oh, like a hardware wallet or, like, mobile wallet or something like that where the funds are being deducted.   Okay. That makes sense to me. Okay. So when so we have these merchants. They have a not a little in their store.   They probably have it connected via Wi Fi, but it also has an Ethernet port. They can connect it via Ethernet.   What are they using to actually invoice the customer? So they they got, like, a are they using a mobile phone? Are they using a tablet? Like, how does that interaction with their customer actually look like? Well, they they  

[00:30:35] Unknown:

if it's a physical business, they can just use Zap on their phone, for example, to to   to go back to that. Yeah. Also  

[00:30:45] Unknown:

That's how you envision it? You you expect them to have Zeus on their phone connected to their Nautilito   by scanning a QR code?  

[00:30:55] Unknown:

Yeah. That is for for physical businesses, that's what makes the most sense.  

[00:30:59] Unknown:

Do you think this is gonna be primarily used for physical businesses? Like, what do you think the breakdown's gonna be versus online versus physical? I mean, I I imagine   the overwhelming majority of this target market has gotta be physical   physical sales now.  

[00:31:17] Unknown:

Yeah. In emerging markets, definitely more and more physical. I mean, I I have no idea. We probably don't even have any online   type of business right now,   be because of being unbanked, so not having any way to pay online.   But that's also maybe some market which could just   begin, thanks to Bitcoin.   Like, first solve the payment issue then can start doing ecommerce.  

[00:31:46] Unknown:

Fair enough.   Cool.   So, Friex, I will remind you if you have any questions, feel free to put them in the live chat, and we will answer them.   When do you guys think the Nautilito is gonna ship?   Tough question.  

[00:32:07] Unknown:

We hate dates.   First half of next year.   Very conservative.  

[00:32:15] Unknown:

On on that note, you guys wanna talk at all about, you know, I I'm I've a lot of us have noticed that you had some supply chain issues with the existing Nodal,   fleet.   Do you wanna talk about that experience at all? Like, where do you stand on that right now?  

[00:32:32] Unknown:

Well, what what I can say right now is that if you want to know the daughter, you should probably go to the store.  

[00:32:40] Unknown:

Are they available now?  

[00:32:46] Unknown:

Maybe. No. Yeah. We have we have we have some supply chain issues, which   actually is not like shortage in our case. It's rather like a slow wage.   And, and some prices become unpredictable, which which sucks.   But yeah. And and we have some   some assembly slash   hardware issues which we are trying to solve. So we   we are doing more testing on each device than we used to.   We used to run them for 2 days before shipping them. Now we keep them a whole week.   But yeah. And and What's the reasoning for that?  

[00:33:31] Unknown:

They usually quality control?  

[00:33:33] Unknown:

Yeah. It's quality control. They they they usually fail, like, between days 3 5,   if they do. Interesting.   And we   kind of have an idea of what's going on, but it's very hard to prove.   And,   and I go to see the supplier and tell them that's the problem. Please fix it.   But, yeah, we are we are actively working on that. And also   buying more components to build more and just,   yeah, just just build more, test more, and ship more.  

[00:34:11] Unknown:

What are the  

[00:34:13] Unknown:

like, for   the yeah. Go on. Who aren't necessarily, aware of, like,   you know,   what Nautilus looks like,   The first batch   of nodes we sold were,   were actually pre ordered. So people paid us upfront.   We used the money to buy components.   We built the nodes, and then we shipped them a couple, I don't know, months later maybe or something,   at first.   And then we use the proceeds to buy more   hardware, etcetera, to build more nodes, etcetera. But   this was entirely bootstrapped. It's a really small operation. Sometimes people don't necessarily realize it,   But it's just a very small outfit.  

And, it's very manual. It's very artisanal.   And, you know,   some people aren't aware of it. But, you know,   it's just how it is. Yeah. I mean, Kito's literally building them in his living room. Right? Exactly. Yeah. He outsourced this to to his wife, actually.  

[00:35:17] Unknown:

The dynamic duo.  

[00:35:20] Unknown:

Mister and mister Kito. Build she's doing all the building, installing, and testing now, so I don't have to.  

[00:35:27] Unknown:

I had the pleasure of meeting miss Quito and,   she's a great lady.   So you're you're very yeah. I didn't know if I should say that or not, but, yeah, Enrica.   So you're very lucky to to we're both very lucky to have each other. And then this is the   so you have 3 models right now. You have what are you calling this? You're calling this the Nodl 1 by the way, that's nodl.it   is their website, nodl.it.   The Nodl 1   is, like, the current entry level device. You have the Nodl Dojo,   which is more expensive,   has better specs,   and then now you have this new one which kinda slots in underneath the 2 of them, which you're calling the Nautilite.  

And once again, I I think the biggest differentiation here is I I feel like your   your previous hardware attempts has been   a focus on this   more   enthusiast crowd, this more ride or die coiner crowd. And and this feels like more of a mainstream product,   with a completely different demographic.   So what is the Nautilite?  

[00:36:36] Unknown:

Oh, fuck. I can't believe I called the Nautilite. There's a lot of people in the space than you used to have. Honestly, when you when you're trying to build a, lightning node,   3 years ago,   if you weren't going for the people who knew about it and who were really, like, early,   you weren't talking to anyone at all. And,   you see a lot of people now who are super bullish on Lightning.   You didn't get the same stuff from them, like, a couple years ago.   So there's been a big change. Honestly, we've noticed that.   And there's a lot more people coming in the space.  

It's on TV every day if you watch TV. You know?  

[00:37:16] Unknown:

Obviously, the demographics are not We we we decided to make Nodal into a commercial product when lightning and the TCP server   went mainstream.   And,   I don't think even Nutrieno existed back then. And   last year,   the compact filters were finally merged into Bitcoin Core, so we see more and more in the server. So,   basically, what we are doing now with this new   nodal  

[00:37:45] Unknown:

wasn't that possible even a year ago because So the Nautilito is infrastructure. The Nautilito is using Nutrieno?   Yeah. Yeah. So it's using an open standard to connect. Do you wanna explain to the freaks what Neutrino is?  

[00:37:59] Unknown:

I can   try.   It's   a it's a type of very light   Bitcoin node running inside LND,   which uses compact filters, which is   kind of   the same idea as an SPV wallet, basically.  

[00:38:19] Unknown:

But it's it's it's a little bit different than SPV wallet trust was. Yeah. So Yeah. That's a big difference.   Keto, tell me if I explain it well.   I mean, you're European, so you might not   understand my metaphor.   So instead of sending full blocks to the not Alito,   Nutrino allows you to which are heavy on bandwidth,   but you need a lot of Internet,   for it.   You're sending the SparkNotes, you're basically sending,   a summary of the blocks.   And then if the Nautilitos   sees something in those spark notes that they need,   it it'll then pull that specific block and only that block rather than every block as it comes in.  



[00:39:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that's that's pretty accurate. And   it comes with some downsides.   I don't know if there is a fix for that or if,   or if it's, like, at the protocol level and it can be fixed.   But for example, the nodes   don't track   the closing transactions of channels, so we have to wait until the channels channels time out before noticing that they are closed.   So it's not perfect, but,   that's also why we want this product to come standard with a channel and liquidity management service.  

[00:39:39] Unknown:

Okay. So that was my next question. I mean, liquidity seems to be the major,   hurdle for a Sovereign Lightning merchant,   specifically inbound liquidity, the ability to receive payments on Lightning.   How do you guys   aim to solve that or mitigate it?  

[00:39:57] Unknown:

Well, as,   as the opening   side,   to our customers,   managing inbound liquidity for them is the easier side.   Usually, the problem we have is, like, people start,   running a node. They open a channel. They have only outbound,   and they need inbound.   Since we will be the opening side that is the first channel. Of course, people are free to open all the channels, but   we want to guarantee   the   the users that the channel that we have, we are money with us,   will be monitored. And every time   they will be missing liquidity,   we'll be just adding,   I don't know, a new channel or some kind of rebalance or whatever.  



[00:40:42] Unknown:

Interesting. So you're basically watching their channels. And then if you notice liquidity drop, you're gonna open a channel from one of your nodes   to them.  

[00:40:51] Unknown:

Yeah.   And that that that's the that's probably the biggest part of the work because, like, making the device and installing the same stuff as we we are used to install on our other boxes is is the easy side. But the complicated part is,   learning ourselves and understanding   how and when to do that.   For example, like, we'll probably have some very small transactions on some nodes and some average or big on others. How do we handle that?   Do we, like, make some   assumptions in advance,   asking people how we what is your, like, average transaction size?   I don't know. That that's all the all the questions we have to answer.  



[00:41:40] Unknown:

And I guess you've had some   practice with this,   running the nodes behind Sphinx. Right?  

[00:41:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Which actually are completely different anyway because they have, like, very symmetric transactions.   Because for every message you send, you receive a confirmation,   which gives you money back.   So if you don't receive, like, any donations or any boost, you basically your balance will basically never move.   It's just going back and forth. Yeah. It's just going back and forth with if you're using managed nodes with 0 fees. If you're running some through some public routing nodes, it can be much more than 0 fees on each. So   yeah.  

Yeah. And we are running multiple stores as well for ourselves and for other people. So we   we we   we see how it how it works. Like, we we actually sold 1 Dojo with a Lightning transaction the other day. Like,   I've seen the transaction on the store. Wait. A full model Dojo?   Yeah.  

[00:42:44] Unknown:

I mean, what is that? That's, like, $900?  

[00:42:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Something like that? $900   in one lightning transaction.  

[00:42:50] Unknown:

So that's, like, 2,000,000 sets?  

[00:42:54] Unknown:

It was more back then. It was more.   Don't remember the exact amount, but I I I spent, like, half an hour looking at the on chain wallet trying to find the payment and couldn't find it. And then I said, gosh. Maybe it's lightning.  

[00:43:09] Unknown:

So where do you so then you have this Nautil cloud product. Like, where do you see the Nautil clouds slotting in? Are they're gonna do you ex do you think there's be some merchants that just skip out on the Nautilito and they just run everything   on your cloud infrastructure rather than actually having a piece of hardware?  

[00:43:29] Unknown:

I guess it mostly   depends on what's your, like, risk assessment of your local jurisdiction and the jurisdiction we're hosting the the normal clouds in.   My assumption is really that at some point,   if they really want to, they can qualify any type of hosting   as custodian.   So if if the user or the server is in a jurisdiction where that can happen,   I would rather advise to   to self host the lightning part.  

[00:44:05] Unknown:

Because then it then they have the keys on their own hardware rather than   Yeah. Then it's never  

[00:44:12] Unknown:

the transaction never touches our servers.  

[00:44:15] Unknown:

Because right now, if someone uses   just NautleCloud by itself or something like Voltage, which offers   cloud LND,   The keys are in are encrypted,   but there's still a element of trust there. Right? There's a large element of trust there that   that you could then   steal funds or compromise funds?  

[00:44:40] Unknown:

It's   increasingly   hard,   but   I would say with enough willpower,   it's impossible.  

[00:44:50] Unknown:

But the the not elite though takes that a step further. The keys are held on   hardware that the user controls. So you can't do that step, but you can still do the man in the middle step.  

[00:45:00] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:45:02] Unknown:

Cool.   So if I if I have the Nautilito   in my hand, I open it up, what's inside the Nautilito?   Are you sharing that?  

[00:45:14] Unknown:

Yeah. We I I've shared it on Twitter before. It's a rock by s, So we are   still,   try we are still working with both from the same company, which is Russia   in China. And, the Rock Pi s is basically   what the new Raspberry Pi 0 2 is,   except it exists for 3 or 4 years already.   So it has half of gig of RAM   and 4 64 bit cores.   And then the usual Internet, SD card,   Wi Fi.   And   as I understand it, I haven't tried it yet, but the hardware should allow us to make a computer   I'm the   networkless   setup in the in the sense that,   you could connect your computer straight to the device to set up the Wi Fi parameters and such. So you would not even have to connect it to a wired network the first time,   which in some places,   can be good.  



[00:46:20] Unknown:

So what? You connect   the not elite directly to the computer, what, with an Ethernet cable?  

[00:46:25] Unknown:

No. No. With a USB cable.   So USB, and it it shows up the same as an Android phone,   using the ADB protocol. So we could make a small app using the ADB protocol, like, to to set up the basic parameters on the device, like passwords, Wi Fi, and so   on. Interesting. And then you just unplug it from your computer, you plug it into the power adapter instead, and, and that's it. You're good to go. And then it connects to Wi Fi. Yeah.  

[00:46:53] Unknown:

But then what is that solving?   Because couldn't you  

[00:46:57] Unknown:

That's solving the Yeah. Go on. I need the wired router with one   3 port on it to connect the box, and then I need to find its name on the network. And half of the times, it doesn't work because routers  

[00:47:13] Unknown:

suck. Right. And this is the first model that actually has Wi Fi built in.  

[00:47:18] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:47:19] Unknown:

Right. Because the other models, you you connect Ethernet to the router and then We we always refuse to include any radios in our devices, but,  

[00:47:29] Unknown:

unfortunately,   these boards don't exist without radios.  

[00:47:33] Unknown:

And it's kind of useful in this and for this demographic. I mean, most people aren't gonna use You could even run it be behind your  

[00:47:41] Unknown:

mobile phone, hotspot, or whatever.   Right.  

[00:47:46] Unknown:

So   on that note, is there any   did you give any thought to actually putting, you know, a SIM card slot on it so you didn't need a mobile phone hotspot?  

[00:47:56] Unknown:

Well, it has a USB port. So, technically, you could,   use a USB modem a GSM modem in it, like 3g, 4g modem.  

[00:48:07] Unknown:

We have someone in Mexico who'd like to add that to the boards.  

[00:48:11] Unknown:

As I mentioned,  

[00:48:14] Unknown:

as long as you have, more than we've supports the  

[00:48:17] Unknown:

which supports which has Linux drivers, it should work out of the box.  

[00:48:23] Unknown:

But I guess there's no reason to   I mean, necessarily build it in if if you can either use a mobile hotspot or   a   USB modem  

[00:48:32] Unknown:

to connect yourself. Be modems are so cheap now. That doesn't make much sense.   Cool.   And and on the other side of the spectrum,   if you add a small additional board inside, it can be powered with power over Ethernet.   So in a totally different setup, if you want to host, like, a farm of   40,   in some place,   you could just buy a power of return network switch and plug them directly into the network switch and don't use any external power  

[00:49:04] Unknown:

adapter. That's cool.   I like that idea.   I don't know how many people are gonna use it. Data center. Oh.   But   but, like, if you wanted to set why   I I mean, I guess,   that's interesting.   Well, how do you how, what kind of use case would that end up? Like, how would you end up seeing a use case like that?  

[00:49:27] Unknown:

Well, you know, I I always mentioned, like, instead of hosting virtual machines on server, just having, like,   a data center ready version of the nodal boxes that we could just put in some big chassis and,   have, like, 50 of them running in the space of 1 server.   So I'm bringing this kind of application, like, still hosted,   but dedicated hardware for each   each user. Yeah. Do you remember  

[00:49:57] Unknown:

do you remember when that company had,   they were US based. They had the over the air, TV antennas  

[00:50:05] Unknown:

Uh-huh.  

[00:50:06] Unknown:

Where they, like, they hosted a badly.   Yeah. But they, like, got around, like, the regulations   about streaming,   network TV   because each person had their own   over the air  

[00:50:20] Unknown:

TV antenna located in some server farm. Yeah. The assumption was that if they use one TV antenna and tuner for each user, it's just it's,   the same as having the receiver at home.  

[00:50:33] Unknown:

And then they got the shit suit out of them. Yeah. That didn't fly.   They were, like, the hottest tech company for, like, 3 months, and then everything went to shit.   So there's a bunch of freaks out here that are wondering. I'm I mean, I imagine that this is where my head would go.   So, I mean, the the the product very much to me seems like it's geared towards,   an end user that's trying to receive payments.   Do you think the hardware is, like, powerful enough   or even well suited for someone who wants to run, like, a always on routing node?  

[00:51:11] Unknown:

Definitely not.  

[00:51:14] Unknown:

And why is that? It's just not you can't?  

[00:51:17] Unknown:

It's,   it's a device suited to generate,   a few invoices per minute, probably.   So, I mean, yes, you could use it as a routing node, but you will not route, like, some   big quantity of transaction on it.  

[00:51:37] Unknown:

And what's the bottleneck there?   Processing power?  

[00:51:43] Unknown:

Processing power is not is the size of the RAM,   on the device because,   basically, to run, it has to swap.   And,   if if   I mean, you you can afford when you're,   a merchant in your physical store and it takes 2 seconds to generate an invoice. That's okay.   But when you're routing, that's a different story. It will penalize your node. Like, you will not get a good score and so on. So, yeah, I   I I would not advise,   doing that,   probably.   I mean,   someone has to test.  

[00:52:22] Unknown:

This is what I love about you, Keith. I would not advise of doing that, probably.   The   channels   open with people that I mean, we we hear, like, trust issues there if you have   channels open with people that I mean, we we hear Lightning devs say this all the time,   just with any old Lightning nodes,   full Lightning Nodes,   with Bitcoin Core backing them locally,   that you should not have channels open with people you don't trust explicitly,   even though we all do anyway.   In that case,   our nodes are able to see if they're online or if they're using a watch tower and they're offline. They're able to see if there is malicious behavior from a channel partner.   The fact that with Neutrino, you mentioned this thing where you're not seeing the closed transaction until after the channel times out, Is there an additional trust issue there with having channels open with people that,   could be malicious?  



[00:53:33] Unknown:

I'm not sure. I'd   I would say no, but I'm not 100%   sure. I'm   too stupid to ask.  

[00:53:42] Unknown:

But, like, if I   I mean, so you're saying it's not seeing the closed channel transaction. Would it would it would it see me broadcast a bad state if I was connected with the if I had a channel open with the Nautilita?   It would see that part.  

[00:53:58] Unknown:

That's actually a very good question which we should ask,   like, in labs.  

[00:54:04] Unknown:

Well, this is why it's this is why I love dispatch. Okay. Well, definitely ask that question. That seems important.   But I guess, in this case,   most merchants that are using Nautilito   will be   their channel capacity will be coming from your notes.  

[00:54:20] Unknown:

Well, if if they want to use our channel management service, yes,   which is kind of the point of the thing. And, also, I just made a note at the same time, I include watch towers in the service package.  

[00:54:33] Unknown:

You're welcome.   So the   and, I mean, I guess   I I still think this concept of   of of, like, one person in the community   running   a   a proper node, a a   I guess we need, like, new terminology, but, like, a a a completely full node and then them acting as a backing infrastructure.   Then in that case, they'd be trusting   that person who's running,   like, a Nautil a Nautil Dojo or a Raspberry Blitz or something. Can also be providing the Nutrino,  

[00:55:10] Unknown:

like, so let's call it server to all these nodes?  

[00:55:14] Unknown:

Because it's completely open. So, like, someone can get a Nautilito,   and then instead of using NautilCloud,   their uncle Jim could be using, like, a Raspberry Blitz or something.  

[00:55:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Totally.  

[00:55:26] Unknown:

That's pretty cool. At some point, you need to call it,   like it is. It's actually you need someone to run infrastructure   for you   because you want high availability.   You want   to be able to have some kind of trust in the setup, etcetera.   You also need someone   to provide liquidity.   It might be the same person, but it might be someone else behind it that you don't see because it's abstracted from the user's perspective.   But these are the type of services that you see today in the fiat world.   They're just not done in Bitcoin yet.   This is maybe one step further in figuring out the right model of   who runs really infrastructure,   who runs services, who provides   liquidity, who provides other components of,   you know, the the end user experiments, basically.  



[00:56:18] Unknown:

Right.   So  

[00:56:22] Unknown:

in your case yeah. Go on. Yeah. No. Sorry. And that's what, like, you can do sometimes with with the cloud services   that maybe is not,   as easily understandable for people is, like,   if you have   customers,   merchants, that say, okay.   I don't know how to do it. I don't necessarily wanna do it. It's not my main business.   So I just wanna make sure it's running 247.   I don't think there's a single player today   that does it with a guaranteed,   you know, uptime,   channel management, liquidity, etcetera.   But within a year or so, you'll have those people doing it for you.   So so people need to find a way to do it   because that's what's expected from the user perspective. And and now you have new users who who don't wanna go into the details as much as we do maybe,   that that will want some kind of professional setup.  



[00:57:24] Unknown:

So, I mean, reading between the lines, that's the goal of Nautle Cloud.   Obviously,   that kind of uptime, that kind of infrastructure,   that kind of channel management   is not free. How do you perceive   that model going forward? Is that, like, going to be a subscription model? Is that a yearly subscription model? Like, how does that look?  

[00:57:46] Unknown:

Kinda like the mobile phone market. You will be free to buy the device and pay for the service or get the device   subsidized   by paying more for the service and not paying the device. That that's the baseline we we have now.  

[00:58:03] Unknown:

So, presumably, someone can get a Nautilito   with no money upfront,   no money down, and then they're   it's subsidized by a subscription offering. Sure. Yeah.   And you're not gonna tell us the prices of that at all right now?  

[00:58:20] Unknown:

To be honest, we have no idea. So we can't tell you.   Awesome. We we we also, like, at the   at the step of arguing if we should go with the most expensive SD card or the second most expensive one.   Because also the   even the SD card we   are trying to include in this device didn't exist 6 months ago. So  

[00:58:47] Unknown:

And the SD card is holding   the keys to lightning   your lightning keys. What else is that SD card used for?  

[00:58:57] Unknown:

So how operating system and LND. So it it it writes Everything's on there? Yeah. It writes a lot.   You will still have the option of using the USB port for   a static channel backup drive,   like a cheap thumbstick.   But, yeah, we   I I don't want to build a device that will stop working after 6 months or 1 year.   So the minimum we expect from the SD card is is 3 years.   And the ones we are testing now come with a 5 year guarantee,   and, like, a massive,   endurance numbers.  

[00:59:38] Unknown:

Because the the concern there is, you know, SD cards have a higher failure rate. Right? Especially if you're writing a lot.  

[00:59:46] Unknown:

Well, any any flash memory   ages   when you write on it.   SD cards by the size I mean, micro SD cards by the size include obviously less   extra memory than a big SSD drive.   So cards with enough extra memory to cover for the failed cells inside the memory are   way more expensive.   And,   yeah, that that that that's   one one thing we, like, waited to see on the market. And,   I mean,   not a secret,   because it will be part of our main specifications for this device.   SanDisk   came up with this new   cards called, high endurance and max endurance, which are used for video surveillance,   meaning constant writing.  

And this is what we are planning to use.  

[01:00:44] Unknown:

Awesome. So, I mean, the concern here is if that SD card fails or   or if you're using a lightning node with an SSD and if that SSD fails,   all all your your your channel state, all of that is is lost, and you will lose your funds   if you don't have a static channel backup.   Now the static channel backup, though, if you restore from that backup,   you lose your channels.   Yeah. It still sucks. I mean, to be The funds are restored on chain.   Right? You get your funds on chain, but you get hit with the on chain fees to do that. And then you have to hit And it's a very long process. So with the Nautil Dojo, one strategy around that is that you have 2 SSDs in there   that are operating in a, basically, like, a quasi RAID   situation where one is backing up the other. So if something happens to one of the if one of the SSDs fails or gets corrupted, the other one,   is there ready to go without a static channel backup.  



[01:01:48] Unknown:

It is an actual red one,   mirroring red. So the   anything written to the SSD won't be acknowledged   by the system if it's not written to both drives.  

[01:02:00] Unknown:

So   okay. So in that situation,   if I buy a Nautil Dojo and I have 2 SSDs in there because that's how Nautil Dojo comes,   aren't they both getting hit with the same amount of rights at the same time? Wouldn't there be a situation where they both fail around the same time? Or is it just they They do. They do. So the the idea  

[01:02:22] Unknown:

is,   it's   not very urgent because we we are, like, monitoring the   the wear of SSDs on our test devices, which are much   faster than   usual users ones.   But at some point, you will see in the UI,   remaining lifetime   estimation in percent   for your SSDs. And what what you will do is, like, when you reach, I don't know, 30 percent or 20%,   you will replace 1, rebuild the data,   on the first one, and then replace the second one.  

[01:03:03] Unknown:

So it's like a gray smoke.  

[01:03:05] Unknown:

Yeah. It also it it also works for increasing the size. Actually, you can just plug a bigger one,   restore the red on the bigger one,   then replace the second one with a bigger one and, expand the the partitions on that. So it's, like, more for, like, a graceful migration?   Yeah.  

[01:03:25] Unknown:

So   couldn't you, with, like, the Nautilito,   either add, like, a second SD card slot or, like, a USB drive that you plug in? Like, if if if the SD card's 64 gigs,   couldn't I, like, plug in a 64 gig thumb drive and have the similar result there?  

[01:03:46] Unknown:

Well,   that that's actually something we looked into at some point for having, like, a red for only the LND directory   of any node   between the internal SSD and an external thumb drive.   But we figured that, actually, thumb drives are made for,   like, very,   infrequent use,   and they die much faster than any SD or SSD.   So   you could, but   you wouldn't want to do that. And in addition, it's,   I wouldn't say maybe 100%,   but 99%   of thumb drives don't report any,   statistics about their internal state.   So it would be very hard to detect the fail   an upcoming failure.  



[01:04:35] Unknown:

But what about, like, if you had a,   like, USB SD card reader   attached  

[01:04:42] Unknown:

and then you have an SD attached to that? The same type of SD card. Yeah. That that probably be okay.  

[01:04:49] Unknown:

Like, is that not a is that not a good idea? Like, is did I not just think of something there, like, to have 2, like, redundant SD cards just like the the the has That that external port is on USB 2, so it would be very slow.  

[01:05:04] Unknown:

Yeah. We we we can think about something like that.   That that's probably something we could test.  

[01:05:11] Unknown:

But if you if you I guess if you had, like, a similar   chip that came with 2 SD card slots, then that would be way more practical than using that USB port. That's the issue. Yeah.  

[01:05:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   By the way, one   very little known thing, although I probably mentioned it twice or 3 times already on different,   shops.   If you have another one,   with   this encryption,   which   was, like,   starting probably a year ago now or maybe a little longer.   It actually supports red mirroring. You can add an external drive and,   with a few comments, enable the mirroring.  

[01:05:57] Unknown:

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't realize that.  

[01:05:59] Unknown:

It it it it actually has   a red mirroring of only one drive configured. So if you add the second drive, it will just,   stupidly replicate on the external drive.  

[01:06:11] Unknown:

All you have to do is plug it in? You don't have to do anything else?  

[01:06:14] Unknown:

You you have to run a few comments.  

[01:06:17] Unknown:

Oh, okay.   Cool.   I have another question. So there's a lot of comments here. I mean, it's the the obvious thing when you see   when you see this not a lead to, like, the first thing everyone thinks about is mesh.   You know, you see this little device.   I'm imagining it in, like, a flea market.   They're all, like,   daisy chained off of each other, and then they they hit the, you know, whatever the main server is, whether that's a,   a, you know, a Nautil Dojo held locally or if that's a Nautil cloud or something. Like, what are your thoughts on mesh? Like, is that   something that's, you know, in the pipeline in the future? Would you need different hardware to do it?  



[01:07:02] Unknown:

It's been a long time we are talking about adding, like, LoRa 1,   mesh or even the Gothena,   supports to the model.   What   most people probably don't realize is that with any kind of ISM band mesh radio, you get very little air time. You get, like, 10 seconds   per hour maybe of air time. So that's very, very small data.   It's   basically enough to send a few messages   or send some transactions, but you would not, like, stream blocks over that.   So you need at least one other   type of radio, and for that, Blockstream satellite is perfect   to to receive the blocks. That that's like a minimum.  

Mesh alone won't solve any problem unless   you are just remote controlling a node which is hosted elsewhere.  

[01:08:01] Unknown:

Right.   Yeah. I mean, I guess   if you're in, like, that flea market situation anyway, all you need is   something that's broadcasting Wi Fi in the area, and then all those not all those can connect to it anyway.   And that could be something that's mesh enabled or not. It doesn't really matter. You could imagine hooking up, like, the the central model dojo with some  

[01:08:26] Unknown:

good,  

[01:08:27] Unknown:

Wi Fi card and use it as a as a router for everything else. And then that Nautilus Dojo could connect to, like, a local mesh or a block stream satellite or something like that. And then all of the Nautolitos that are in range of it get benefit of that anyway without having to incorporate it directly into the Nautolito. Right? Yeah. Exactly.   Got it.   So, I mean, we talked about earlier in the show, I mean, before we started recording,   that we're gonna try and keep this,   on the tighter side. I mean, I have my lady in the other room. I can hear her, like, unpacking boxes,   probably a little bit angry at me that I am not unpacking boxes as well. My computer is literally sitting on boxes right now, and I'm using a secondary mic,   to do this show. I got my dog passed out next to me   on an air bed.  

Do you think we've missed anything, guys, that you wanna cover here in terms of the future of the Nodle and the Nodle Ditto? I  

[01:09:25] Unknown:

like what   John said in the chart. It's, like the the parent child model. I think that's a very good, picture of it. Like, the parent being the full node and the and   the node details being child children on that node.  

[01:09:41] Unknown:

I'm being told I sound slightly like a potato. I apologize, freaks. I do not know which box my good mic is in.   But I promise you next week, for both dispatch and rabbit hole,   I will have better audio quality. And my Internet here, though, is absolutely fantastic.   Some of the best Internet in the United States. So,   I'm doing that for you guys.   We got this.   Ask who you got? Final thoughts over there?  

[01:10:14] Unknown:

You know, like you were saying,   earlier that,   eventually, you'll have a lot of providers of of these type of solutions,   which is what you wanna see this what we wanna see. You wanna see a lot of hardware providers, a lot of cloud providers,   a lot of,   liquidity providers, etcetera.   And the trust models for everybody is gonna are gonna be different.   They have to be clear for the users.   That I think is really important to us   that people understand what they're getting into.   But, eventually,   if you choose services like that where you do rely on third parties to a certain extent, you have to understand where the risk is.   And also,   you know, the different providers that do, like, cloud infrastructure or or things like that that   sometimes you feel you'd like, you'd wanna move away from.  

We believe there's a big difference between, like, running stuff with, like, corporate companies like, AWS   and these type of providers   versus owning   the hardware yourself.   And I don't think we necessarily make it clear,   but everything that we build in the cloud is on   hardware that we own.   So we build stuff ourselves,   and, and we think that's something that could be acceptable for a lot of, a lot of customers.  

[01:11:41] Unknown:

I feel that. Do you think you guys think, like, in   5 years,   the majority of Bitcoin users will be using,   either custodial providers or,   you know,   nodes hosted on, like, an AWS or, like, a corporate cloud?   Like, is that a foregone conclusion, or are we gonna actually have a large amount of users,  

[01:12:07] Unknown:

trying to use it in a more sovereign way? I definitely see a future where everybody has several nodes. They don't use them for the same things.   Some are more private than others. Some are more accessible.   Some are probably hosted. Some are probably self hosted.   That's probably the mix that makes the most sense, at least for me.   And,   you know, availability is something that you don't necessarily want to manage all the time. At the same time, you don't want to give custody to to anyone else with Bitcoin.   So there's different trade offs that   probably, in my mind,   will require you to have several different setups and use all of them for different purposes.  



[01:12:52] Unknown:

I laughed internally very loud when the guy in the video mentioned partnering with AWS in the beginning.  

[01:12:58] Unknown:

You mean the CEO of Goldman Sachs? Yeah.   Yeah. They   they don't really get what we're doing over here,   do they?  

[01:13:10] Unknown:

And then there's something a little more far fetched maybe that we didn't talk about that I'm really   I'd like to see eventually,   Hit us. Us doing   is   when you do host services for people, if they're hosted   and replicated in a lot of different places,   there is some kind of potential for you to offer,   jurisdictional arbitrage as a service.   And,   with the way the world is going, I think that is a very strong value proposition.   So, eventually, I'd like to see that happen.  

[01:13:47] Unknown:

What do you mean by that? Just   different providers in different parts of the world so that even if there's   bad laws in one area?  

[01:13:55] Unknown:

Yeah. That your data is never there because,   poof, it's not there anymore.  

[01:14:01] Unknown:

But do you are you saying that you foresee certain providers   basically having infrastructure hosted globally so   that within a certain provider, you get that, or are you talking about different companies?  

[01:14:14] Unknown:

Both. But, yeah. Option 1 definitely would be a a good,   a good business.  

[01:14:21] Unknown:

So in option 1, how do you foresee that? You see, like,   you have servers hosted in, let's say, Switzerland   and   Paraguay, and then, like, if Switzerland passes a bad law, then all of a sudden those servers are wiped, but the Paraguay servers continue?  

[01:14:38] Unknown:

As a service. Just say that's not things which were not done before by people we know.  

[01:14:44] Unknown:

Got it.   Well, guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I do appreciate your time. I appreciate all the work you've done in with Noddle.   I love the hardware that I use from you guys.   I've never had any issues with it.   My SSDs haven't failed yet.   You kinda got me a little bit worried when we were talking about SSD failures,   so   we'll we'll see how long that lasts.   But I do appreciate all the work you guys have done, and I I do consider you both very good friends. I hope to see you again soon in person.   Thank you. I appreciate you guys.  



[01:15:24] Unknown:

Thanks for having us. You, and say say hi to the family.  

[01:15:27] Unknown:

Will do. Likewise.   And a big thank you to the freaks who joined us. Thank you again for dealing with my so called potato   quality on my mic.   I do care about the quality of this show, and   I do care about   getting content to you guys that is actionable,   helpful, and informative on a weekly basis. So I will continue my best,   to try and improve on that front,   And that's part of why I moved. So I appreciate you all. I appreciate you, Kito. I appreciate you Asquoo. I appreciate you Freaks.   And   if you're interested in the Noddle, you can go to noddle.it.   That's nodl.it.  

Until next time. Thank you, guys.  

[01:16:15] Unknown:

Thank you. Bye.  

[01:17:30] Unknown:

The clock? Einstein,   James Dean? Brooklyn's down to win a team, David Crockett, Peter Pan? Elvis Presley, Disneyland,   Bardo, Budapest,   say?   Punk rock. Baitin' Reagan, Palestine.   Terror on the airline.   Ayatollahs in Iran, Russians and Afghanistan.   We're the fortune   Cheers, freaks. I'll see you Thursday   for another rabbit hole recap,   and I'll see you Tuesday for another serial dispatch.   Love you all. Stay on Bold and Stack Sats.