Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 46

BLOCK: 711998

PRICE: 1738 sats per dollar

TOPICS: securing the cheapest power, braiins os, negotiating with your power company, utilizing solar subsidies, asic resale value, efficiency, slush pool, mining pool centralization, hosted providers vs running it yourself

@BigCohoo: https://twitter.com/BigCohoo

@dfrumps: https://twitter.com/dfrumps

@RoninMiner: https://twitter.com/RoninMiner

@BtcBoulder: https://twitter.com/BtcBoulder

 

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

The people buying cryptocurrency.   The reason is really simple. Central banks have printed so much money that its   value is plummeting. It's called inflation.   So what is cryptocurrency?   What is Bitcoin   exactly?   Well, we scoured the country for more than a year to find someone who could explain it to us, who really understood it, and who had skin in the game. Michael Sailor is the man we found. There's really no one better we've decided to talk to about this topic. Michael Sailor is an entrepreneur, a business executive. He's in 1,000,000,000 in Bitcoin, and he's worth listening to on the topic. By the way, his company just dropped more than $400,000,000   on it this afternoon.  

We sat down for more than an hour with Michael Sailor for a genuinely fascinating episode of Tucker Carlson today. Here's a small part of it.  

[00:00:53] Unknown:

The currency   is to the economy   what your blood is to your body,   and economic energy or money is to the currency   what oxygen is to your blood.   So   common sense says, if I keep sucking the oxygen out of the room, if I suck the oxygen out of the room, you're gonna either suffocate or freeze to death.   And if I keep sucking the economic energy out of the currency,   the economy collapses.   In the extreme,   you get ripped back to stone age barter. Right? When the money doesn't work anymore, I have to trade you cigarette   or bullets.  

Right. And the problem with that is is   the economy becomes a 1000000 times less efficient. Right? If you don't have money   now how many countries in the world have a collapsed currency?   66   are dollarized.   There's a 180   about countries. There's a 130 floating currencies.   All of them are weaker than the dollar.   The US dollar is the world's reserve currency. The US dollar is expanding. It was expanding 10% a year for a decade, now expanding at 14% a year. It expanded 34%   over the past 12 months.   The dollar is weakening.   Okay? It's like the auction is getting sucked out of the room. So, Tucker, if I told you the auction is getting sucked out of the room and there's an oxygen mask   drops out of the ceiling over there, what would you do? Run for it. Yeah. Put the oxygen mask on.  

Bitcoin is the oxygen mask.  

[00:02:31] Unknown:

The the idea of Bitcoin let let's let's move to the 3rd question. You've made the most compelling case I've ever heard for the need for something like Bitcoin.   So you're saying just to make sure that everyone's faultless.   The whole point of Bitcoin   is to escape   the inflation vortex that has consumed all these previous empires.  

[00:02:50] Unknown:

The point of Bitcoin is to fix the money.   And money is energy and energy is life. And if I keep sucking the energy out of the economy,   I'm sucking the oxygen out of your system.   Either under the best case, you perform poorly. Under the worst case, I suffocate you to death or freeze you to death.   That's the problem.   That's why that's why empires collapse.   That's why economies collapse.  

[00:03:21] Unknown:

You probably haven't seen a conversation about economics that interesting ever. We certainly have. And if you're wondering what is Bitcoin, what is crypto, or if you care about inflation, why are things suddenly more   expensive?   You need to watch that. It's over an hour long. Michael Saylor   is his name. An amazing person. That's on Tucker Carlson today at foxnation.com.  

[00:04:17] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   That clip you just heard was MicroStrategy   CEO and founder,   Michael Saylor, on Tucker Carlson's,   Fox News Show,   explaining Bitcoin to him.   Take it as you will.   Huge shout out to the Rider Dies who continue to support this show. You guys   keep this show ad free, sponsor free, and focus purely on actionable Bitcoin discussion. I cannot thank you enough.   The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Fountain Podcasts   and Breeze.  

That's Breeze,   b r e e z.   You can search it in your favorite app store.   All you have to do is   search it'll dispatch,   press that subscribe button, load it up with stats, and you can stream stats directly to my lightning node to support the show. You can also support the show at sidodispatch.com   through lightning or through my pay nymph, my samurai pay nymph,   which is Odell.   Very easy to remember.   So thank you all for supporting the show. Another huge shout out to the ride or die freaks who join us every week,   in the live chat, which is accessible   via Twitch, Twitter,   or YouTube.  

You guys make this show special and unique. The questions you bring, the comments you bring,   make these conversations   more comprehensive than they would be otherwise, and I really do appreciate you. Thank you so much.   Also,   sale dispatch hats are back on sale. Richardson hats were out of stock   globally, and now they're back in stock.   Shipping worldwide   should be able to get to you by Christmas.   So if you're interested, go to seal dispatch.com/stack,   to get a hat.   Also, huge shout outs to BTC Pins and CryptoCloaks,   for making awesome Bitcoin merch.  

Not sponsors, but, I like to shout out my favorite influencers,   when I get the opportunity to.   So with all that said,   this will be our 3rd   our 4th   Bitcoin mining focused dispatch.   The first one was Citadel dispatch 5, where we briefly touched on mining, not not very strongly.   Then cildispatch   31 was like the getting started, so if if you haven't listened to that, consider going and listening to that after this show. That's citildispatch.com/cd31.   And then we had citildispatch   38,   where we went more in-depth on mining. And today, we will be also,   going further   into   mining, and so I'm very excited about it. We have 2 return guests. I will start with them. We have,   Ronan Miner. Ronan, how's it going?  



[00:07:32] Unknown:

It's going alright.  

[00:07:34] Unknown:

Awesome. Thank you for joining us again. Yeah.   And we have Big Kahuna. Big Kahuna, how's it going?  

[00:07:44] Unknown:

Hey, guys. I'm doing alright. Currently recording from my truck because we have a house showing going on. So this, this is interesting.  

[00:07:50] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah. We love that   dedication. I met Big Kahuna in Austin,   a couple weeks ago. So I think this is our first show doing it since,   we met in person, so that's exciting.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

Oh, yeah.  

[00:08:04] Unknown:

And we have Daniel Frumkin,   head of research and content   at Slush.   How's it going, Daniel?  

[00:08:13] Unknown:

Going very well. Thanks for having me, Matt.  

[00:08:16] Unknown:

We also have another guest, BTC Boulder,   who is not here right now, but will hopefully join us,   further along into the conversation.   So with all those introductions said,   where do you guys wanna start? I know the focus here to start off or the focus here is gonna be on securing the cheapest power possible When you're talking about mining,   you have two main costs.   You have the actual hardware cost of the ASIC miners,   and then you have the electric cost that you pay to run them.   In the past, we have discussed   securing miners and obtaining miners and   trying to get the best price for them.  

And   on this episode, we're gonna this conversation, we're gonna try and   start with a focus on obtaining the cheapest power. So where do you guys wanna start on that?  

[00:09:15] Unknown:

I handed it off to Kahuna   to go through that thread that he did. I think that was the catalyst for this whole thing.  

[00:09:23] Unknown:

Yeah. I guess, I guess what my thought was that, just to start really, really high level, like,   you know, start from the   the top of the globe, bird's eye view, how you can get the cheapest power and just, like, very slowly work down to a more granule level until we get to   the residential,   which is where I wrote that,   purchase power agreement thread,   which kinda had some tips and tricks in there to   kinda guide people on how to negotiate power with their their   energy service providers.   So, like, I was really hoping that, BTC Boulder was gonna be on because he's a he's an actual lineman electrician. He works with, like, big, big, big, big power and would probably have a lot of insights as we as we work our way down through this.   But I guess, like, to start off, like,   obviously, the the best way to get cheap power is to position yourself near   hydropower or geothermal or nuclear or something that that is the cheapest.  

And I don't know. I guess,   Daniel, as you've been   kind of exploring the world, I guess, do you have a list or an order of what what powers are,   generally cheaper than others?  

[00:10:41] Unknown:

Well, I think it's a lot different for industrial scale miners versus home miners,   because as a home miner, you're you're buying power from a utility company most likely or almost definitely.   So even if their energy source   is like, regardless of whatever their energy source is,   that that's not necessarily going to dictate what your end price is as a consumer.   Whereas at the industrial level, if they're working directly with the power company, then,   the hierarchy is is more based on the cost of energy for whatever energy source.   Interestingly, you mentioned geothermal, and I was just in El Salvador for the conferences there and talking to some people. And it sounded to me like the geothermal energy is actually not all that cheap, like maybe   7 to 8¢ per kilowatt hour,   which could be profitable for a very long time,   with all the current conditions that we have. But,   I think   ordinarily, I would be recommending to people at least mining at scale to look for something like 6¢ per kilowatt hour as a   good barrier for or good threshold for being competitive long term.  

I think probably for all at home miners,   that should be considerably higher than 6¢ per kilowatt hour because it's just not realistic in most places.   And you're you're probably mining for reasons besides just the mining profitability on its own.   But that said, I would probably rank them   as, like, actually maybe solar as the number 1,   which   is very low on my list for industrial scale mining and very high on the list for at home mining,   because there's so many incentives that,   different companies or the government provides for doing solar panels on your roof at your home,   that   it typically makes sense to do solar panels if you're in a solar dense area like the Southwest or   or Florida or anywhere in the South really,   then you can   you would be sending power back to the grid ordinarily with that kind of deal.  

Any excess that you produce, you would sell to the grid and you wouldn't get a necessarily great price for it. So mining Bitcoin with the excess on your at home solar can actually make a lot of sense.   Other than that, it's it's hard to say.  

[00:13:07] Unknown:

Daniel, let me just stop you really quick.   So   you work for Slush.   You have this this dashboard, insights.brains.com.   And in classic Bitcoin fashion, that's brains with 2 i's.   Because no one in this space can name things in an easy way for someone on a podcast to talk about them.   This this website is is extremely,   detailed,   And you have all these different   stats on it.   I got I I pulled it up on if you're watching the video stream, you can see it. I I have it in the screen share.   And you have the breakeven   electricity price of all the different top   miners.  

So I'm seeing   I'm seeing the s 9.   When you when you list the s 9 here, is it running brains custom firmware?  

[00:14:09] Unknown:

The breakeven electricity price is stock firmware.  

[00:14:12] Unknown:

So So at stock firmware, you break even at 15¢ a kilowatt hour.  

[00:14:18] Unknown:

Yep.   So the the brains OS plus column there is with an overclocking profile, which which is actually   not that much more efficient than the stock firmware because you're consuming so much more power.   So the breakeven electricity price is about the same or even potentially lower. But if you were to run the s nine at, for example,   800 or 900 watts instead of what we have there, which I think is 1400,   then your breakeven electricity price would be probably 2 or 3¢ higher.  

[00:14:52] Unknown:

Got it.   So   so a lot of people   so so when we're talking about, like, at scale, like, try and target a 6¢ kilowatt hour or 7¢ kilowatt hour,   it's it's it's about maximizing   profit. Right? But you can especially if you're a home miner, you can get away with significantly higher electricity rates.   And if you value no KYC   when it comes to stacking,   I would say, like, you could even push it maybe even a little bit further past breakeven if you if if that's something you value.  

[00:15:30] Unknown:

And a lot of these, a lot of these utility companies will just offer offer it up. If you just call your utility provider   and   and just ask them what type of   programs they have, and then you tell them what you have they'll they'll say, what do you fit into this type of category or that or that type of category?   You can negotiate down for winter rates   and and different   even so just yesterday, a guy was explaining to me the rates that he's offered at his   at his location, and he's just regular residential.   He could get 5¢ a kilowatt hour for 21 hours a day   during weekdays, but the other 3 hours a day during weekdays, he has pay 36¢ a kilowatt hour.  

So then you have to kinda do your Oh, shit.   Yeah. And then on the weekends, he gets 5¢ a kilowatt hour,   24 hours a day.   So you kinda have to do your That's a bigger difference than I'd expect.   Yeah. And then but then you gotta you gotta,   I don't know, then you guys suppose you'd have to take into account, like, alright. So you're gonna shut your all your machines off for 3 hours a day? What kind of wear and tear does that do on your machines if you're   powering them off and on every day?  

[00:16:44] Unknown:

So I don't know. Know what kind of wear and tear that does, Daniel? No. Oh, okay. Sorry.  

[00:16:50] Unknown:

Basically, we know it does   some, but, like, nobody's willing to really share lifespan.   Like, the the main people that we would get that information from are the ones doing the load balancing, like demand response stuff in ERCOT system in Texas and,   similar system in Illinois.   But Illinois. But there's,   like, it's not necessarily a good idea for any minors to share   that data because if they're participating in those programs   and they share that data,   then it would directly results in their hardware resale value going down.   Because   then there would be, like, some sort of,   clause on any any hardware sale where, like, this hardware was used in a demand response or   just frequently powered on and off application.  

So its lifespan is probably going to be shorter and the value will be lower, and then they're not gonna be able to resell it for as high of a price. So, it's hard to get that information. But,   generally speaking,   it's it's definitely not good.   That's all we can say.  

[00:17:58] Unknown:

That's, I never even thought about. I never even took that the resale value into consideration on that.  

[00:18:07] Unknown:

So, yeah, I mean, the resale value is   a lot of people don't take the resale value,   into equation in the in the opposite direction in terms of   when you're talking about profitability. I mean, you combine these things you combine with these things for a couple years and then resell them. What is that value at that   point? It's a little bit harder to to know that, obviously, but it's still gonna have some value if you wanna resell them.  

[00:18:32] Unknown:

Yeah. That's always kind of been my argument. I probably said it in the past past couple times I've been on is,   everyone goes with the ROI metric, whereas   just because it's gonna take you 10 months or 18 months or whatever   however you've figured out your   quote ROI,   you're not sitting on 0 afterwards. Like, you still have like, even if you've gotten your return on investment, you still have a machine that's gonna be worth a lot to someone,   presumably.  

[00:19:05] Unknown:

So,   a 100%. So, Daniel,   I have   I saw a question on Twitter,   the other day, which is a question that I actually get a lot, from freaks who reach out.   You wanna go into explaining   why it's cheaper to buy 6 s nines   versus,   an s 19 even though the tower hashes are the same?  

[00:19:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's basically a a matter of a difference in   efficiency.   So for you to produce a 100 terahash with s nines, you have to consume,   with, like, roughly 7,000 watts, maybe 8,000,   depending on the quality of the s nines. Whereas to produce that same terahash with a s 19 only requires about 3,003,300   watts.   So,   it's like max you you get more BTC per watt of power that you're consuming.   And that that also means that the lifespan of your ASIC in terms of not in terms of operating lifespan, but just like the profitable lifespan where you can run it at a certain   electricity price will be longer   the more efficient it is.  

So the s nineteens are significantly more expensive because they they're expected to remain profitable for much longer and because they're going to help you stack much more BTC per watt of energy that you're consuming  

[00:20:35] Unknown:

right away. So, like, at the extreme,   it's more worth it to get the new gen miners   if your electric cost is higher,   and   it's better to get   the   old gen miner, something like an s a bunch of s nines if you have free power or as close to free as possible.  

[00:20:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Generally, if if your power even for a solid portion of the day, like 12 hours, if you have power for,   under, like, 3¢ per kilowatt hour, then you should almost definitely be going with something like an s line or a,   m twenty s from what's minor.   Yeah. Once once you get above that, it becomes a lot more tricky because   the,   like, breakeven electricity price is only telling you day to day profitability. Like, can I can I make a profit by running this machine   for the next 24 hours? But what it doesn't tell you is, will I actually make enough money to act to pay off this the CapEx that I spent to get this machine in the 1st place.  

[00:21:39] Unknown:

So it's not quite as simple as, like, a So the breakeven price you list does not include purchasing the miner.  

[00:21:46] Unknown:

Right. You you that's,   if you scroll up to the very top of this page, we have a profitability calculator.   And we call it a profitability calculator just because that's what people are used to, but it what it really is is like a Bitcoin mining cash flow calculator.   So in the advanced options on the the inputs sidebar,   if you open up advanced options down there,   there's CapEx,   hardware starting hardware value, hardware   appreciation or depreciation,   infrastructure appreciation or depreciation.   And then,   Huddl ratio is for, like, if you wanna   keep a certain portion of your profits in BTC instead of selling into,   Fiat. So yeah. Exactly.  

So if you if you have a non zero non zero price   increments on in the basic options for BTC price, and then you have a HODL ratio, then you see the impact of, like, holding versus not holding.   But for for hardware value,   that's part of the cash flow line. So once you input CapEx and hardware value,   then the cash flow separates   from the net profit loss. And,   and then, like, your resale value of the hardware is factored to the cash flow. So as hardware   depreciates,   even though   it maybe it loses half of its value in the in a year if it's an old gen machine, I don't think that, like, personally,   I'm I think that price growth will outpace difficulty growth in the near term and and hardware will actually get more expensive.  

So I think there's an interesting play of trying to trade the hardware   where you you mine with it at home for a year, and then you try to sell high on it.   But anyway, yeah,   it's hard to to actually see the inputs. Let me go full screen.  

[00:23:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Why isn't the graph changing? Am I fucking something up?  

[00:23:47] Unknown:

I don't know. It's   I think, actually, the   it's but, yeah, it's because, the hash rate and consumption are way too high. So it's, like, change the hash rate to   a 100 terahash and consumption to 3,000 watts, and then everything will be more proportional and and we'll be able to see stuff better. It'll It'll reload better.   I'm trying to get rid of the little yeah. There we go.   Okay. So now you can see hardware value, the yellow line   where it's losing about 50% of its value in that 12 months.   The cash flow is the pink line that's increasing   less rapidly   than   the net profit loss. And the reason for that is because while you're making that profit, the hardware is depreciating.  

So your cash flow, which includes the value of your assets,   is not increasing as quickly as the amount of money that you're just making   in general.  

[00:24:53] Unknown:

Got it.   This is a pretty in-depth little calculator you guys got here.  

[00:25:01] Unknown:

Yeah. This was the the first part of the project that we built, and it was,   I I had a ton of spreadsheets,   and I was trying to explain them to people who were, like, just getting into mining, just going through, like, cell by cell on Excel spreadsheets. Like, if I change this, then this is what happens and and so on and so on. And like, nobody was understanding it. It was really difficult. And then,   at the same time that I was like,   had so many tabs open trying to keep track of stuff, I was just kinda like, this would be really useful for content if I could have visualizations   for all of these,   like, Excel spreadsheets that I can't even make charts for in Excel   because none of them make sense.  

So, yeah, it's it's, I think, the most advanced calculator   out there on the market by far.  

[00:25:52] Unknown:

Well, we appreciate it.   So what's your favorite what's your favorite part of this site?   What's your favorite metric on this site?  

[00:26:01] Unknown:

My my favorite little tool is at the very bottom. It's a power capacity widget where if you input a certain amount of power in megawatts, it will automatically update the chart and tell you how many miners you can fit in it and what amount of hash rate that those miners will generate.   So the defaults we have in there is 2.5 megawatts, but if you change it to, like, a 100 megawatts, then you'd see, like, here's what the numbers that a large miner is working with when you get into the exahashes.  

[00:26:31] Unknown:

Why are there no,   what's minors here?  

[00:26:35] Unknown:

It's,   we have it filtered so that it's not super long, but at the top right next to the power capacity input, you can change the hardware manufacturer.  

[00:26:44] Unknown:

And you have a show all button.  

[00:26:47] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:26:49] Unknown:

Does anyone use, like, Kanan, Ebang?   In their server. Actually,  

[00:26:55] Unknown:

a couple of large miners with tens of thousands of Kanans.   I don't think anybody's using Ebang or InyoSilicon   at any kind of scale anymore,   But for sure, Kanan has at least, like,   I I would say, a 100,000   of their new gen machines out there, something like that. And  

[00:27:17] Unknown:

that yeah. I didn't realize that at all. That's that's not that's not nothing.   Before we move on from this website,   you wanna explain what the hell is in this chart, the hash value versus hash and hash price? Like, I still don't get it. Like, there was a back and forth on Twitter.  

[00:27:33] Unknown:

Yeah. So   I I didn't even understand what people were confused about at first because I've been, like, in in my little bubble of knowing what hash price is for a long time.   People are confusing hash price with dollars per terahash   capex for hardware.   So because I think it's because of the the name price and shout out to to Ethan from Hash Rate Index. I'm pretty sure he's the one that,   came up with with doing hash price as the   the the name for this metric,   and it just stuck. And now that's what we're using as well. But this is actually referring to the revenue generated per day   by,   by 1 terahash of Hash rate. So it has nothing to do with the the price   of   procuring that Hash rate, of procuring an ASIC. It is just, like, the USD value per day,   of the the revenue that you generate   with 1 TeraHash.  

And then the hash value is the BTC value per day. So what you can see on this chart is that,   in July, when the China mining ban happened, hash value soared because difficulty went down.   So when difficulty decreases, the amount of   BTC that you generate per terra hash goes up.   But price was also going down at that same time. So the hash   price was not going up   at the same rate as the hash value.   And then now we're going back to they're converging now and probably   I would expect that hash value will will overtake hash price. And eventually,   they'll be far separated with hash price being,   sorry. I I think I mixed those up. Hash price will overtake hash value.  



[00:29:17] Unknown:

Ronan, do you understand this?  

[00:29:21] Unknown:

No. I thought it was I thought it was,   I was reading it wrong this whole time.   His his   his initial explanation of what people think it is is what I thought it was. I didn't know it was the difference between, like,   okay. You're mining this much BTC   compared to you're mining this much fiat. And   what I thought it was was   for how much dollars per terahash you're buying a machine compared to   how many dollars   you're making per terahash.   So I was I was wrong about it. The the problem with that is that now, I think.  

[00:29:58] Unknown:

Every machine has a different dollars per terahash CapEx number.   So I I wanna come up with a a better name for   the CapEx version of it. But the,   like, dollars per terahash to procure an ASIC is different for every single machine because,   like, it depends also on the efficiency. It's not just a raw hash rate amount. So the dollars per terahash for an s 19 will be significantly higher than the dollars per terahash for an s 9   because the s 19 is more efficient. So you're you're able to keep more of the BTC   that you mine with each of those terahashes,   because you're consuming less energy in order to produce that BTC,   and therefore, you have to sell less of it to pay your power bills. Which goes right back to  

[00:30:46] Unknown:

oh, I'm sorry for interrupting. But, yeah, it goes right back to what you were explaining earlier on why   why a single   s 19   j or whatever is better   than 6   s nines   Right. For that exact reason. Because dollar per terahash is totally different. You get the same amount of terahash, but you're paying different dollar amounts for it, and that does not equal what you're going to end up with.  

[00:31:13] Unknown:

Right. Exactly.  

[00:31:16] Unknown:

Got it.  

[00:31:18] Unknown:

So what this this chart really shows is just,   the impact of increasing difficulty   and   volatility in Bitcoin price on mining revenue.  

[00:31:35] Unknown:

Bighoon distracted me. Can you repeat that one more time?  

[00:31:39] Unknown:

Yeah. This chart is this chart is showing basically the impacts of increasing difficulty over time, which is why hash value goes down and   hash value goes down,   and then volatility in Bitcoin price, which is why there's volatility in the hash price,   over time. So increasing difficulty means decreasing hash value.   And then if Bitcoin price increases   faster proportional to difficulty,   then hash price will go up.   And if BTC price goes down or   decrease or increases slower than difficulty,   then hash price will go down. Right. So So then  

[00:32:15] Unknown:

why,   sorry, Ronan. Hit us, Ronan. Alright.  

[00:32:20] Unknown:

So, essentially, what you're what you're saying is, like, a pool   is a purchaser of your Hash rate. You're selling your Hash rate to that pool, and they're mining with it, and then they're giving you   your   what you're what you're owed for that amount of hash rate. And as network hash rate goes up, if your   hash rate that you are selling to them stays stable,   then   then your   value of the hash rate that you're contributing goes down in value.   But if the price of Bitcoin goes up, it starts to chase that back because you're being rewarded more for   the hash rate even if your hash rate stays stable?  



[00:33:03] Unknown:

Right. Exactly. So the in in pool terms, hash value is the only relevant metric because the pool is not paying you in USD or whatever your local fiat is. They're paying you in BTC.   So just if if you if you have a steady one terahash,   then as difficulty goes up, your rewards from the pool will keep going down.   But, yeah, if Bitcoin price goes up enough,   then   your rewards and Fiat terms can still keep going up even as they're going down in BTC terms,   which is where, like, in calculations   with mining profitability and, like, should I mine or not?   There's 2 CapEx break even points. 1 is the CapEx break even in USD or whatever Fiat terms, and the other one is in BTC terms.  

And I wanna make a version of the calculator that's like a BTC maxi version where we do the CapEx breakeven of, like, if I spent this $12,000   just buying Bitcoin instead of mining,   when, like, when would I make more Bitcoin   from mining than I could have bought with that $12,000   in the beginning.  

[00:34:11] Unknown:

Right. I like that. So but so in practice,   it's   kind of the same end result as what me and Ronan thought the chart showed to begin with. Yes.  

[00:34:23] Unknown:

Yes. That's why I I didn't even, like, think about it that people were were   thinking of the other dollars for TeraHash because it does  

[00:34:31] Unknown:

essentially show the same thing. Like, if you're if you're long term bullish on Bitcoin,   you should be trying to buy miners when the blue line is lower than the orange line, the yellow  

[00:34:41] Unknown:

line.  

[00:34:42] Unknown:

Right? I would say if you're long term bullish on Bitcoin, you should be trying to buy miners just in general. But yeah.   So,   basically,   if hash price is going up, then that means   the the value of the the price that you have to pay for the machines will probably be going up as well. But if you already have them,   then that means that the resale value is also going up.   So, like, that's where I was saying before, if you you can actually kind of   imagine people starting to trade hardware on   6 6 months to 18 month time frames where, like, I could buy a machine   expecting that in this next, let's say, 18 months, Bitcoin price is going to increase faster than difficulty.  

If that happens, basically, Hash price will go up from where it is right now.   And if hash price is up from where it is right now, then the machine value will be up from where it is right now.   And I'll be able to resell it for more than I paid for it, and I'll keep all of the all of the BTC that I mined in the process.   So that's where it does show the exact same thing as what you were saying because,   as hash price goes   up, then the amount that you have to pay for hardware is gonna go up to.  

[00:35:58] Unknown:

Awesome. Okay. Thank you for going through that with us.   I've been very excited to talk to you about it on air since my confusion.   We have BTC Boulder has joined us.   How's it going, BTC Boulder?   Welcome to the show.  

[00:36:18] Unknown:

How's it going? Good. Everything going to you guys is little off on the time zones, but I'm here now.  

[00:36:24] Unknown:

Yeah. We figured out that it was a time zone issue.   I I don't know if we mentioned that it was EST, but if we didn't, that's on us.  

[00:36:37] Unknown:

Yeah. No problem.  

[00:36:39] Unknown:

You wanna introduce yourself to the freaks?  

[00:36:44] Unknown:

Yes. The   Daniel's first name, based out of your Boulder.   Long electrician now. The union work utility power, high voltage,   medium voltage or   controls, fiber optic.   Not too familiar with, like, the pricing structure on the I know you guys are talking to the kilowatt hour,   comparing them versus   states and when you when you buy it, time of the the week. Not too familiar with that aspect of it, but as far as the electrical install side, very familiar with it.  

[00:37:19] Unknown:

Do you have a lot do you have knowledge on, like, grids and stuff? Like,   I mean,   I I know that, like The voltages they're running at  

[00:37:29] Unknown:

and certain sections, is that what you're you're referring to? Or  

[00:37:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I I guess one of the things that I was I was hoping that you would be in the chat just so we could, you know, confirm and deny some of this stuff.   What I wanna get into. I I guess, Matt, are you okay with me just kinda going off on this,   Yeah. 100%, dude. Go for it. Okay. Alright. I don't know if you had an agenda you were thinking or or whatnot.   One thing that I found out that was pretty interesting, when you're when you're, like, kinda building up a mining operation,   if you're in the middle of butt fuck nowhere in the middle of the woods, like, you that grid is   powered differently than living in a city,   or living in, like, a in a business,   area. So if I wanted to if I lived out in the woods and wanted to run an operation with 10 s nineteens,   the the power provider might not even be able to give that to me because that would put too much strain on   all my neighbors because there's not enough voltage running through those power lines.  

But if you live in near a city or, like, during or in an industrial area,   then that grid by default is more   wired with higher voltage to   actually support   larger power draws.   That's a correct assumption. Right?  

[00:38:48] Unknown:

Yeah. It's really case by case on on the area because, I mean, you could be out in the middle of nowhere and it still has higher voltages that wouldn't   be affected by running some minors.  

[00:38:57] Unknown:

Do you know what those voltage limits are?   And I I get really confused when it comes to, like, your grid voltages.  

[00:39:07] Unknown:

Yeah. That's around, like, 13,000.   And sometimes in the in the neighborhoods,   I mean, that'll   they'll break it down into just   whatever transformers are set up on there, but it's, yeah, 13,000   utility for the most part.   That's for If it's, like, city to city city to city, it's getting, like, in the the 24,000   or higher range or   but, like, I think what you're talking about, it could be up in the   the couple thousand range. A good way to look at it is the the pole that's feeding it and the style of, like, insulator and the size of the pole could is a is a good way to determine potentially what it's feeding at her. For the utility company, I'll tell you what that area is getting fed with.  

[00:39:46] Unknown:

And will the will the utility company be able to tell you, I guess, your limit as a as a resident or as a business?  

[00:39:54] Unknown:

Yeah. And sometimes they'll   do a transformer   depending on the   the demand of it and what you're doing. Sometimes they'll they'll upgrade their stuff, but, I mean, it's really case by case on on your area and what you're thinking your demand is. But they'll definitely inform you on everything of what's being fed and voltages.  

[00:40:12] Unknown:

Would that be a transformer   upgrade,   not to your well, okay. They can upgrade your pole if there's enough power on the power lines,   to get you more voltage to your house. But if they were to upgrade that whole power line,   that might that'll likely require,   thicker gauge cables.   And if if you're the one driving that change, then they might ask you to cover that for the, you know, the whole circuit.  

[00:40:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's really the on the on the situation   to really answer that the best because it's I've I've kinda seen it just all   all different ways when it comes to the   responsibility of the utility out or the   the property owner   or   however they wanna have the utilities fed in. Sometimes, who's gonna pay for it?  

[00:41:02] Unknown:

Okay. Yeah. And I'm I'm probably breaking off on a little bit of a tangent here.   When we first started, we were saying that, like,   the best way to get the cheapest power is to position yourself near,   the cheapest energy. And, obviously, a lot of people aren't gonna be uprooting their house to move out to the middle of nowhere near a waterfall.   And when you get when you zoom in a little bit closer,   the the next step is to position yourself near   power facilities or, like, cities, essentially. Because   because if you're closer to the power facility, that's a cheaper,   delivery cost. Like, these these power providers actually charge you a fee to deliver electricity to your house.  

And my understanding is that that delivery fee   is directly partial to the distance you are to the   the power generation site.   And, generally, if you're in the city, you're much closer, but if you're out in the woods, then you might have a higher,   delivery fee.   And then taking that a step further, you might have a a weaker,   like, a lower gauge power line setup,   meaning that you you can't   scale up a huge operation in your pole barn because,   the grid in the woods is not good enough to do so.   Is that is that all pretty correct to say that, like, your distance is directly proportional to that distribution   fee that they're gonna charge you?  



[00:42:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I thought it was so slight that you wouldn't even tell.   I have I have some friends in the in the utilities, in the metering that I could confirm that, but I was almost under the assumption that, like, if you're in,   like, Excel Power or somewhere in Colorado, it's not like   you're getting that much of a difference between how far over the powerhouse is in in your in your house, like, out in the middle of nowhere versus someone in the city that's near the powerhouse   versus the kilowatt hour   of the going rate of what they're of what they're showing in advertising.  

[00:42:58] Unknown:

Your kilowatt hours probably aren't affected that much, but your   they do tack on so you have a a base kilowatt hour for your capacity use, but then you have they tack on a, like, a deliver a distribution kilowatt hour.   I'm gonna share something.   If I just post this in the hologram, can you share it, or can I pull it up?  

[00:43:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I can I can share it?  

[00:43:21] Unknown:

Okay.   It it it's been interesting. What what kinda led this idea was I made this big thread on, on power purchase agreements. And I don't know if you guys looked through it, but   the   the idea was that I I started looking   at my my residential,   power provider   and just   seeing what they offered. And I found out that,   it was all public all public information online. I could literally point to the the power purchase agreement I wanted and say, yo,   sign me up for this,   and then they would charge me according to that. And And this was really interesting to me because,   when when I thought about this beforehand, I thought that   if you're a massive   operation, say, Riot Blockchain,   like, you can call them up and negotiate a power agreement. But   what I found is that for my company, it was all out there in the open. They had it all structured. You could pick what you wanted.  

And, like, this is where you get into,   like like, I think Ronan, he conned them into letting them say that he's heating his house with,   electric heaters, and that gave him a cheap rate.   You, like, peak off peak power to get different rates.   And  

[00:44:40] Unknown:

So is this screenshot directly from your power provider's  

[00:44:43] Unknown:

website? This this is directly from my power provider, and this is what they give me. This is, exactly what I would I will be paying,   unless I pick a different plan.   And this is kinda hard to read. I I feel like they almost do it on purpose.   But if you   I'm also checking mark this up. If you just  

[00:45:07] Unknown:

What's the delivery charges you're talking about there on the bottom, the distribution kilowatt hour? Yep. So so if you ignore the first 17 kilowatt hour,  

[00:45:16] Unknown:

portion and you just add up the capacity energy under   additional   and non capacity energy under additional.   And then that distribution,   number,   that's that that's gonna be your kilowatt hour charge, and then they just tack on that service charge and whatever credit on top of it. What does capacity and non capacity mean?  

[00:45:38] Unknown:

Do you know?  

[00:45:39] Unknown:

I don't know. Do you, do you know Boulder?  

[00:45:43] Unknown:

I was thinking about the the time of day you're using it when it's at peak, like, whenever the people are using more on the grid. That's what I was Okay. So this this is not peak off peak because peak off peak is a different, it's a different plan that you get to negotiate.  

[00:46:02] Unknown:

Let me see. Capacity.  

[00:46:04] Unknown:

Maybe how much are you using of it at a time?  

[00:46:07] Unknown:

When I called them, they told me that you just add those two numbers together.   And I I didn't I didn't really understand the capacity versus non capacity.  

[00:46:17] Unknown:

But Meaning that your true cost per kilowatt hour is the   the sum of those two numbers?  

[00:46:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Yep.   Okay.  

[00:46:26] Unknown:

Would I have a would I have a You're paying, like, 10¢ a kilowatt hour on your bill of 10.50.  

[00:46:32] Unknown:

And then you have that distribution. So it it's, like, you know, 16, 17.  

[00:46:36] Unknown:

Oh, so your your rate isn't   nice?  

[00:46:40] Unknown:

Yeah. No. It's not.  

[00:46:43] Unknown:

Oh, I said nice because yeah. Never mind. But yeah. I mean, I I thought you were paying significantly lower than   than what I've come to expect.  

[00:46:52] Unknown:

Nope. But when you add it all up, then that's when it gets to them, which you're expecting.  

[00:46:58] Unknown:

Right. So with, my  

[00:47:00] Unknown:

I guess  

[00:47:03] Unknown:

I was gonna say with Excel Excel in Minnesota, they actually have 2 different charges. The bill looks similar to yours, which you have going on there. But you actually pay per you pay a dollar amount per kilowatt.   And then after that,   it's almost like you pay a certain dollar   amount   per kilowatt.   And then after that, you pay   this amount per kilowatt hour at some really lowered rate. And I've never been able to understand what the difference is between kilowatt hour and kilowatts  

[00:47:36] Unknown:

in general. Kilowatt, is that I mean, that's best explained if you actually think about the the peak power,   plan that,   I guess I discovered.   So   okay. To to to kinda take this further,   that's my standard   bill.   And what I found out is that you can negotiate or you can sign up for the peak power agreement.   And,   how that works is you're essentially billed for   you're essentially billed for   the maximum amount of power that you use.   So if if you're running a welder   and you turn it on for 10 minutes   versus   so so in a standard bill,   if you turn your welder on for 10 minutes, you're only charged for the 10 minutes that you're running that welder.  

If you go to a peak power agreement   and you turn that welder on for 10 minutes, your charge is if that welder was running 247   for,   you know, for the entire month. And so   that that's what that kilowatt charge is   that,   you're seeing, Neil. You're being charged as if you're running your max power amount   247.   And you can kinda see how this would be really good for mining. Right? Because if you're mining and you're getting charged,   18¢ like the the bill we just showed up on the screen,   That sucks. Like, you're being charged 247.18¢   per kilowatt hour. But if you go into a a peak power agreement,   they're gonna bill you for your peak load for that month.  

So, again, if you turn on your 10 s nineteens for 10 minutes, you'll be charged as if it's running 247.   But you know you're gonna be running that 247, and that allows that allows me to get down to a I think it was 8¢.   And then I'm not actually running this, but,   I did the math,   and I can actually share that if you wanna pull it  

[00:49:36] Unknown:

up. So what you're saying, it makes it so that you can you can plan your expenses. You know exactly what it's gonna cost you   to run   exactly how many you're running.   And if you go over that, then you get then you basically have to end up paying more because you went over the contract that you had with them. Is that what is that what I'm understanding?  

[00:50:00] Unknown:

You're   did did did my explanation make sense to most people? It sounds like I I kinda got chopped up a little.  

[00:50:13] Unknown:

It made sense.   I could try to summarize as, like,   basically, there's 2 really important figures. 1 is,   like, kind of the base rate that you pay,   regardless. And then the other one is what is the maximum amount of energy that you consume   at any point in time during that entire month or whatever the billing period is,   because that will determine an amount that's added on to your base rate for the entire duration of the month. So if you were to just have a random blip where you consume an extra, like,   let's say 3 kilowatts or something that would actually significantly impact your bill even if you're only consuming that extra amount for a few minutes   because of the way that they structured the u x ricity pricing.  



[00:50:59] Unknown:

Alright. That was kinda my understanding of it.  

[00:51:07] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like yeah. This is just, like, really interesting to me to find out. So I I was relaying this on to a lot people and,   like, people started hitting me up in DMs and,   you know, Telegram, whatever, blah blah blah, and, like,   just kinda   zooming out and starting to look at this at different states. Like, I   it seems like in Michigan,   which is where I'm at,   a lot of this information was all public. You could just Google,   your energy provider rates and find all this information out there.   But then you look into Ohio.   I think Colorado, a lot of it was available, but, like, Ohio, they they pretty much made you call them up to to see what they could offer you.  

So it's kinda like a state by state energy provider by provider.   And and I don't know if that means that these plans are already set up and you just need to call and ask for it. They're trying to hide it from you probably,   or if that means that it is  

[00:52:14] Unknown:

You had to call and talk to them and figure it out. And, like, that example I had given earlier that somebody was asking me about that sounded amazing,   but,   like, who would've who would've guess that they'd offer you 5¢ a kilowatt hour, 21 days   or 21 hours a day on weekdays, but then they charge you 36¢ a kilowatt hour   for the other 3 hours a day. Like, that's just such an absurd plan, but that's that's offered to residential in that area.  

[00:52:44] Unknown:

Yeah. I I it might have been the same person. Somebody was telling me about that. They run for 80 what, 21 hours and just turn it off.  

[00:52:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Basically, they're building the demand response incentives in So it's like the same kind of structure as ERCOT   that miners are using at large scales, like 100 of megawatts.   But instead they're like building it in so that you're incentivized to shut off when they need the power for other people and you're incentivized to consume when they have excess   supply. So they're just, like, incentivizing you to be a just demand response resource for them.   It it like, it's actually kinda smart. I didn't know that that was a thing.  

[00:53:23] Unknown:

I was a differential scale.   When I've been talking to a lot of people about this, like, just kinda thinking this through, you know, let's say you get home and it's time to cook dinner or something, and you go and you turn on your electric oven. Like, you would almost want to turn off a minor to offset   that,   added electricity cost when you turn on the oven,   so that you're not you're not running that oven for 10 minutes and then getting charged as if that was running 247.   And then, yeah, that that's, like, the demand response that you're talking about. And then just because,   CryptoClocks is in the chat, I keep hounding him, telling him that him that he needs to take his mining and printing operation and find a peak power setup because,   like, if his miners are running 247,   like, that's a lot of power that adds up.  

And then   his miners and his printers are running 247. Like, that's kind of a match made in heaven where   the peak power is perfect for something like that.  

[00:54:21] Unknown:

They came out and boosted our   our drop.   Like, the the amount of power that they're willing to drop to us, they were they did it for free   because they want they want people they put in the whole new service and everything for us   because   you're a customer.   You're a customer, and they know that they can sell you electric, and you just tell them what you're doing,   and you level with them. And they're gonna actually protect you then after that too because now you're a customer that's buying their electric from them,   and they're not   they don't have any   there's no   incentive for them to, like, go and be like, oh, yeah. These guys are doing this,   and   I don't know if they're paying their taxes or not or whatever, which we are.  

But, like, you're kinda they they'll protect you because they want your money. They're just like any other business.  

[00:55:18] Unknown:

Kind of, like, going off of this, I don't I'd like to hear your story on this, Ronan.   When when I was looking at my bill, there's there's parts in there that,   there's there's incentives or discounts where if you are heating your house with an electric heater   or if you are heating like, doing an electric water heater, you can get discount from that.   And I think I heard that you somehow negotiated with them that you are heating your house with electric heater,   which we all know you're just trying to set your house on fire with minors in the basement.  

[00:55:54] Unknown:

Yeah. No. That wasn't even that wasn't even a negotiation. That was one of those times where I just,   I called the local power utility.   I got a condo,   doesn't take much to heat, threw a couple s nines in there,   called them and I said, hey. I'm gonna be,   using electric space heaters all the way along. And they're like, well,   how much natural gas are you gonna be using? I was rehabbing the place at the time, so I said 0. And they're like, oh, we're all yeah. That's totally fine.   But then,   I asked them and I go, well, what? Because I have a gas stove,   the gas   water heater,   and I said, well, it gets really cold in Minnesota, so what happens if my furnace has to kick on? And they go, we'll see that.  

We'll see that, and we'll we can match that with what the temperature was out that day. We'll know what you're using gas on and the quantity of gas you're using.   And from what we can tell is your electric use is stable   and regular,   so we'll drop your electric rate down to 6¢ a kilowatt   hour between   October   May.   So there you go. You got half the year, more than half the year,   that you get 6¢ a kilowatt hour. And that that includes everything. Your television running, your fans, everything that you have going on in your house, all the electric you use also gets dropped too, but  

[00:57:17] Unknown:

mainly Yeah. I haven't ran these numbers, but what you're looking at on the screen is is,   the same residential bill, but then they they have their their rates for space heating.  

[00:57:26] Unknown:

It's about the same. It's, like, coming out to 17¢ a kilowatt hour, a little bit above. Right?  

[00:57:33] Unknown:

But if you look at the colder,   like, November through May, it looks like a lot of it drops. And Oh, it drops significantly.   Yeah.  

[00:57:42] Unknown:

Then Then you're looking at, like, 11¢ a kilowatt hour.  

[00:57:45] Unknown:

And those are also times that gas prices would normally be going up.   So you're also eliminating that because you're not running your natural gas furnace. So that's a whole other expense that you no longer have. So, I mean, you're saving on 2   different fronts.  

[00:58:07] Unknown:

In in,   Boulder, in your experience, I mean, is it is it, like, just a general rule of thumb? Like, the the electricity provider just wants you to use energy. Like, all these incentives are saying, don't use gas, use our electricity.   I mean, it's in their best interest. It's   you're incentivized to just, like, burn through   their electricity that they're providing you. I don't know if there's any, like, anomalies to  

[00:58:33] Unknown:

that. No. That's that's what I've seen. I mean, I haven't studied too far into it, but I'll   definitely talk to somebody I know who works for the utility company   now that I know some more of the specifics of the questions you guys are looking into. But I definitely know some people who work   for the local power companies in this area and work with metering   and familiar with that. So I'll definitely   maybe they if you guys have another one of these, I could bring them on, but we'll see.  

[00:58:58] Unknown:

And I I also be curious   if, like, if there is a room for negotiation in any of these because I I I just kinda think that these companies have a, you know, have a file on their desktop that they open up and say, well, yeah, we can give you this, this, this, and this.  

[00:59:14] Unknown:

Yeah. It seems like with this person, it'd definitely be a good one to to find that out because she she works with them. So it definitely be could could could start to get some information on that.  

[00:59:24] Unknown:

And they're usually very willing to help. Every time I've ever called anyone,   whether it be to get a new   a new service drop that's   twice or three times the size of what we have   or   just try to see if they have any residential deals that they're willing to offer. Like,   they'll just pull it up and look at it and help you out. They don't   they don't care. They like talking about this type of stuff, so it's it's easy. Even if you don't know, even if you haven't done the research online yourself to figure out what you're asking for,   they'll   they'll tell you what's available.  



[01:00:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's how I found out how to read the the freaking bill. They they just, like I called them up and they broke it down for me.   Some BTC pins actually sent me a link that shows the diff the difference between capacity and non capacity.   I can share it, but I'll read it off real quick.   Forward.   Where we at? Okay. So it says,   power supply charge. A portion of the cost of generating   the energy that you used to power all the lights and appliances in your home.   Your power supply charge was previously presented as one line item beginning in May 2018.   Your power   supply,   charge was split into 2 line items labeled as capacity and non capacity charges on the bill.  

This follows Michigan's new energy policy and will allow DTE to charge elect Electric Choice customers   for their portion of capacity costs without impacting the customers. So it seems like it's just a way to split it for their own,   accounting.  

[01:01:09] Unknown:

Non non capacity is variable and capacity is fixed.  

[01:01:13] Unknown:

Oh, yep. Okay.  

[01:01:17] Unknown:

I'm I'm just reading from what you read from, but that's the TLDR.   I think they try and make these bills as complicated as possible.  

[01:01:31] Unknown:

And it depends on what level you're working Like, residential, you you're not gonna get away with a whole lot of   mess around. They'll tell you what you can get. You move up to commercial.   Okay. If you're using a little more than typical commercial or you're using it   on a more regular   regular time frame. Like, you can actually tell them, I'm gonna use this much   over this period of time, then they'll do something for you. And then you move up to industrial,   it's like,   the sky's the limit. They don't even care. They're like, alright. Give me $20,000   a month, and we don't care what you use.  



[01:02:09] Unknown:

Did you were you able to run so you   you are running 2 meters at your house as I understand, and you just have, like, a separate area with a separate meter. And so when you called them up, they just installed a separate business meter for you? No. No. No. It went it actually, it went a weird way.  

[01:02:27] Unknown:

Was there was a pole barn on the property with a service to it first,   which had its own meter,   and then   a house was built on it afterwards.   And they're required by law   to run a meter to the house   or run a service to the house and put in its new meter.   But it was only because it went in that order where we allowed 2   meters on the same property.   Because, otherwise, it has to be a dual residence. Like, the only way you could get other otherwise, like, only, like, a duplex   could get 2 drops.   Like, they won't run a separate meter out to your pole barn if your pole barn was built after your house.   Does that make sense?  



[01:03:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so. I've heard I've heard stories of people being able to get 2 meters ran at their house. I don't I don't think If you have some kind of farm implementation  

[01:03:20] Unknown:

or you actually   are running a business off of your property as well, then you can get it. But just as a straight residential,   you can't.   And so the only thing we did was we took the existing   I think it was   100 amp or something like that that was going to the pole barn, and we just boosted it as high as they would let us go.   And then since it's all run underground,   all the white like, we did it it's called a drop, but it's not a drop because it was all run underground.   And they were like, yeah. We're not replacing the wires. It's too expensive.   We'll do it for free, but we're not play replacing the underground wires.  

But we will   come out if it burns up   and replace it for free. Otherwise, you can otherwise, you can up   up the service now,   and you have to pay for it. And we're just like, yeah.   Fuck it. We'll burn it up.  

[01:04:20] Unknown:

I know that,   at least from my understanding, it's pretty easy to get, like, a business   meter installed. Like, if you're trying to do something in your garage, you can have them come out and install a   a 200 amp service.   But I don't know what the requirements are for that business. Like, you just need to have an LLC or, like, whatever whole structure. Has to be a detached building.  

[01:04:45] Unknown:

It can't be attached to your home.  

[01:04:50] Unknown:

That yeah. That's one that's been,   I've been   wondering about.   I don't know how that works because, a lot of these these good deals, these peak power deals that I'm talking about,   the best ones are in their their business rates.   And so you'd have to have your own meter or, like, convince them that you are a business of some sort.  

[01:05:12] Unknown:

Yep. You'd have to register it as a as a business. It would have to be   a detached building. Like, if you had a detached garage or something like that, you could do it like that.   But it has to both be physically detached   and also be on a totally different like, under an LLC of some sort or something  

[01:05:33] Unknown:

like that. Okay. And I wonder if that's state by state.   It probably is. I I'm not sure,   I guess, I'm not sure   if there's any more questions or comments on the PPA, but I I guess I have something that we could dive into that I think,   Daniel might have some good comments on.  

[01:05:50] Unknown:

He does.  

[01:05:52] Unknown:

So so looking through the different offers that   show up on my energy plan,   one of them is, like, your your peak off peak power. And what this means is that,   you know, if you're running   if you're running a miner at night,   it's gonna be a cheaper energy rate than if you run it during the day. And that's that's,   to pretty much incentivize   grid balancing, like we were just talking about,   because they know that everyone's gonna be   at home on the weekends or   whatever during the day, running showers, whatever, getting ready for work. But at night, when everyone's sleeping, all the lights are off, everything off is not a lot of power demand.   And   I guess when people see this, like, a lot of the times, they're like, well, I'll just run my my miner at night, and I'll turn it off during the day, and I'll max I'll just maximize the cheapest power that I can get   and go from there.  

I think Dan knows where I'm going with us, but he wrote, he wrote an article on this that I think would be interesting to to talk through.  

[01:06:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Perfect setup for the firmware show. I was waiting for it.   So,   basically,   in in that scenario that you were describing,   I don't think in most cases that it would make sense   for you to actually shut off the miners during the more expensive time periods.   I think,   using a firmware like BrainsOS Plus   more strategically   is a really good way to become competitive with the larger scale miners even when you you don't have,   the benefit of cheaper electricity like they do. And what I   basically the the idea would be   you play the efficiency game when your electricity is more expensive   and you just maximize your hash rate when it's less expensive.  

So during those those nighttime hours, you would overclock   with brains OS plus. Like, for example, with an s nine, you do it,   maybe 1400   watts. You might get 17 terahash   per s 9.   And then during the daytime hours when your electricity is more expensive,   you would do the opposite. You would undervolt it   down to   maybe about   800 or 900 watts,   and you would determine   the the right power setting. You just experiment with some different settings with every machine,   and the auto tuning process would kinda find what's optimal. So maybe some s nines, you would have,   800 watts would be perfect, whereas other ones, 900 watts would be perfect.  

That's just gonna vary from machine to machine. But at the end of the day, what you would do is just,   you would go for   trying to get down to, like, 75 watts per tera hash with the kind of maximum efficiency that you can get from an s nine when your electricity is more expensive.   And that way,   you're consuming less electricity overall, so your total cost is lower. And then you're also running out of more efficient power setting.   So then your amount of   your your profit margin basically during that time is better.   And then when you have that cheap off peak power, you just wanna maximize the amount of BTC that you mine, and you don't care as much about how much power you're consuming   because it's not gonna cost you as much. So then you change your power settings to   overclocking,   and you could just have a couple of Python scripts that automatically do   this, like,   at 8 PM, increase power input to 1400 watts.  

At 6 AM or whatever it is, decrease power input to 800 watts, and you could automate the whole thing so that you play the peak off peak,   power,   pricing differently,   and you maximize for efficiency when when you need the,   the lower to lower your electricity bills and you mash maximize for hash rate when you wanna mine more BTC on cheaper power.  

[01:09:53] Unknown:

And then since you're not turning them off and turning them back on again, you're not running into that same,   the Swipe span. Yeah. Exactly.  

[01:10:02] Unknown:

Yep. That's that's a huge part even for,   I think, the demand response   resource, the miners that are doing this at larger scales, like in the the dozens of megawatts or even the 100 of megawatts.   If they're   participating in demand response programs where they're shutting off every single day,   they'd probably make a lot of money to shut off.   So most of the time, they're going to be incentivized to just completely   stop consuming power for whatever amount of time that that,   that that they can get paid so much by the utility,   for not consuming.  

But when you factor in lifespan, which we don't know exactly what the impact of cons consistently shutting on and off does, but,   it could be rather significant. And in that case, then it might make more sense to just decrease the power input per machine as low as it can possibly be,   but keeps them running so that you don't actually   you don't deal with the thermal cycling where the machine shuts off completely and then it cools off and then it turns on and heats back up and the and the silicone gets,   expanded and retracted and expanded and retracted and eventually that wears on it.  

So, yeah, it's I think, like, every single operation is gonna have different   requirements for that, but but there's so much room for optimization in terms of how you consume energy at at different times of the day depending on the amount of energy you have available and the price.  

[01:11:34] Unknown:

My understanding is my understanding is that's why, like, a lot of the s seventeens   had issues is because, you know, they'd turn off and that that excess heat sitting there would just not get dissipated and it would,   eat through a lot of the thermal paste,  

[01:11:49] Unknown:

holding the They were just shit weren't they just shit pieces of hardware? They were shit pieces of hardware. You get them brand new out of the box. You take a fan off. You could pour the heat sinks out of them. Brand new from the factory line. They were garbage. I think it was really bad paste or they use something different.  

[01:12:06] Unknown:

They yeah. They changed from   can't remember if it was, like, thermal glue to thermal paste or what, but they they basically used a much cheaper material to attach the heat sinks to the hash boards.   And then heat sinks kept falling off or they just weren't as thermally conductive.   And so, like, it was anticipating, and then the machines overheat and that Yeah. So kinds of problems. They're a piece of shit. So, Daniel,  

[01:12:31] Unknown:

on on serial dispatch 38,   we had Yan on. We talked at length about Brains,   this custom firmware you guys ship,   that makes your Bitmain miners,   significantly better.   But   I come from the perspective   that microbt,   WhatsMiners   are   just better hardware.   Where do you stand   in terms of,   like, evaluating the equation between   buying Bitmain hardware specifically so you can run brains on it   versus   investing in microbt,   what's miners, and just hoping that you guys ship brains eventually.  

[01:13:20] Unknown:

Yeah. The when what's minor thing has become,   somewhat painful meme at this point.   Like, we   we're so close, but we've I've I've thought that for a long time, so I don't wanna say anything. It's still it's just Soon TM.  

[01:13:37] Unknown:

Okay. So you should just wing it and buy a What's Minor?  

[01:13:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I   at least on the on the m 21 and the m 20,   which is the mid generation,   I think that we will have those   soon, TM.   We I as far as I know, we already have it hashing. The firmware is hashing on   m 30 and m 31, m 30 plus s plus   as well. But I I would imagine that it's   like, once we get the m 20 and m 21 out, it will probably still be a few months before we get   the new generation stuff out. So if you're buying the new gen stuff, then   I, like, optimistically   end of q one. But I shouldn't even say anything like that. Like, just,   it'll it'll be a few months. Yeah. Yeah. 2 weeks. Exactly.  

I saw the   CryptoCloaks   asked about s 19 j, and   I don't know if we have the j   as part of this, but I do know that we're very close on the s 19 j Pro,   which I think   when we in our next firmware build that we release, I think we will have   a more stable build for s 19, t 19, and s 19 pro,   which are already in public beta right now.   But we'll also include, I think, a beta for the   s 19 j pro.   Hopefully, that also includes s 19j.  

[01:15:05] Unknown:

You think these mining manufacturers will ever improve their naming scheme, or are we just fucked?  

[01:15:10] Unknown:

No.   I wish that they would also just stop   producing so many random variants and just have, like, 1 or 2 things That drives me nuts.  

[01:15:20] Unknown:

I have There's a new one. Yeah. I have an m 3246  

[01:15:24] Unknown:

Tera Hash. I have m 32 62 Tera Hash. I have m 32 68 Tera Hash. Like It gets to the point where you don't even know what miners you own. You have to, like, go check. Yeah. Literally have no idea anymore. I have to go and take Our, like, our lawyers are clients, and we're trying to get them the firmware. And it's like, we have to ask so many questions just to figure out which firmware to give them because it's like, which control board version do you have? Which EPROM chip is on the control board?   Do you have the 96 Tera Hash version or the or the 100 terahash version? Or is it the 102 terahash version? Or do you actually have, like, the j and you just told us it was the base model, but but that's because you were,   you didn't realize how how much complication that there is involved with, like, each individual subvariant has slightly different architecture that we have to account for. And, yeah, it's it's it's such a mess. What's minor, I think, is a little bit better than Bitmain because Bitmain,   like,   there's at least,   I think,   9 or 10 different subvariants of the s 19 already,   if not more. And there was just, like, a random s 19 a.  



[01:16:35] Unknown:

I just saw that 1 or 2 I don't know what that is. Idea what that is. Even know what that is?   Nope. It see it seems to be the same terra hash as something else. But then even with Bitmain, like, the m thirties have  

[01:16:48] Unknown:

am I correct that the m thirties have higher terror hash than the m 30 ones? Means?  

[01:16:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. M 31 is is kind of the equivalence of the, like, t 19.  

[01:16:59] Unknown:

Whereas But, like, that doesn't make any sense. The number's higher.   The model number's higher, but the terra hash is less.  

[01:17:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Same with the m 21 and m 20. The m 20 is a better machine.   It It's like the I use the leftover chips.   I think that's what I have. 46  

[01:17:16] Unknown:

Terahash m 32.   Everyone I've had has failed. It's the only WhatsMyers I've ever had that failed.  

[01:17:23] Unknown:

With the m 30 twos?  

[01:17:25] Unknown:

The m 30 two's 46 Terahash.  

[01:17:27] Unknown:

I didn't even know the m 32 existed.  

[01:17:30] Unknown:

I think that the M32   actually kind of belongs in the M 20 generation. From, like, what I've   read about it, it sounded like the M30 generation is really like M30, M30 s or M30 s, M30 s plus, M30 s plus plus, m 31 and m 31 s plus.   But the m 32 is made with the same chips. I might be wrong about this, but I think it's made with the same chips as the m 20   generation.   But for some reason, it's named m 32.  

[01:18:00] Unknown:

Do you have any idea exactly how they decide what is what? Because I heard, and I mean, this is just absolutely  

[01:18:07] Unknown:

They use a dart board.  

[01:18:09] Unknown:

No. No. No. No. No. A bunch of BYJOE and just you're saying is in the manufacturer of the chips, they get they get chips that are this and they get chips that are that. So they they they   decide which chips go on which boards, and then they're like, okay, these ones are closest to 46 terahash, so let's make a machine that's that. These ones are closer to 62 terahash, so let's make a machine that's like that. Because it if you've noticed, like,   plugging in some of these machines, like, some of them are just animals,   and I can't figure out why. Like, you plug in a 68 terahash m 32, the thing can sit it runs at 60 or runs at 80 terahash its entire life, and it's just fine. Like, I have no idea why this happened. They just, like, fucked it up.  

Oh, it's because there's no there's no quality control.  

[01:19:00] Unknown:

They just the firmware is such a big value add because, like, their firmware is just the absolute same for every single model, but no model is actually the same. Like, you can get   2 different m 30 twos, and one of them is a workhorse and the other one is a piece of shit.   And, like, the firmware that that that comes on them is just gonna treat them the same. Whereas maybe you run brains on those, like, we don't have it for the m thirty two s yet, but, like, maybe for you get an an old beat up s nine that's on its last leg and you get another s 9 that's like still got 5 years left in it and brains will figure out, okay, we can give way more,   higher frequencies and voltages to this kind of newer s nine, and we'll give much lower to the this older s nine. And, yeah, we're not going to get as much hash rate from this older s nine, but at least we're not gonna break it, and it's it's gonna run as efficiently as it can.  

And, like, the the firmware that comes on them is just   it's like treating individual little snowflakes as   all the same.   That said, from what I know, the Whatsminer firmware is actually   more sophisticated   than the Bitmain firmware.   But I don't know if they have, like, the   sophistication of figuring out optimal frequencies and voltages,   but there's something to do with the what's minor chips. They They only really hash effectively in certain temperature ranges.   So you kind of have to do some,   some sort of tuning process just to get them hashing in the first place   that   isn't involved with bit main. Like bit main, as long as it's above a certain temperature where,   where it's, like, safe to run and below a certain temperature where it becomes dangerous,   then they'll hash. Whereas that that effective temperature range for What's Miners is apparently a lot smaller.  

So they have some something going on in their firmware that's that's already doing some sort of tuning. I've also seen if it it it depends on  

[01:21:02] Unknown:

what machines you're partnering your machines with.   The WestMiner doesn't seem to be such a big deal, but, like,   s 19 j   or an s 19 pro   don't work very well next to each other   because they have different   I don't know if it's temperature   sensors in them that will shut them down, but, like, one will be sucking in the other one's heat   or or however the airflow works. I can't exactly describe it, but they they will one will not run next to the other. But as soon as you replace the one with an identical model, then they're just fine.  

[01:21:44] Unknown:

Interesting. I never heard about that. Crazy. I know I know it sounds crazy, but yeah. This is why Ronan's my favorite Bitcoin miner in the space. He just, like, downs 15 White Claws and just places miners next to each other and sees what happens.  

[01:21:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Plug them all in. Let's throw let's throw a half a dozen   once miners next year or some s nineteens,   see what happens.  

[01:22:04] Unknown:

So I wanna bring,   BTC Boulder back into this conversation.   Boulder, we were talking about,   3 phase supply   before you joined. Before we even went live, we were talking about it. Neil brought it up. Ronan Miner brought it up.   Ronan, you wanna hit him with the question that you had? I mean, I I just pulled up the question   that,   UberPwnage   posted.   He didn't actually post a question. He just said that 3 phase applies better.   What was your question again about 3 phase?  

[01:22:45] Unknown:

I have no idea about any of this. Yeah. Just for you to know. Do run better on 3 phase on higher voltage. Motors do run better. And I guess, is that is it for efficiency on cooling,  

[01:22:55] Unknown:

I guess, is that the biggest What is 3 phase? What are we even talking about? Is everything in a house everything in a house is 2 phase. Right?  

[01:23:03] Unknown:

Yes. No. It's single phase. Single phase. Single phase. Can you can you give them all the whole phases, but it's called single phase. Yeah. It's called single phase. There's it's 2 phases.  

[01:23:13] Unknown:

Yeah. And then so, like, everything's every leg is   a 120 volts.  

[01:23:20] Unknown:

So if you want if you want 2 If it's in residential.  

[01:23:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. But if you wanna run a if you wanna run a minor or a stove or something like that, you have to have you have to have 220 or 240.   So you have to hit both those legs. 3 phase comes in as 3 legs, and then   I have 3 sets of 120.   Yep. See but you have to balance it. You can't just tap into 1120   and then another 120   and leave the 3rd leg   of 120 vacant. It would just it it won't work.   So if you have 3 phase, you have to run 3 minors   or yeah. 3. And you do leg 1 and leg 2, leg 2 and leg 3, and then leg 1 and leg 3. So you get your 240 to each of those miners. But my question was,   what's the benefit, and   what's the best way to do it? I don't I don't get that.  



[01:24:22] Unknown:

Can I can I before we go into the I'm super curious about this too, but can I kinda ground people on this a little bit?  

[01:24:29] Unknown:

Yeah. I'll share it. Was that pun intended?  

[01:24:34] Unknown:

Oh, okay.   Alright. I'm trying to find a photo to share up here, but with United States, when you have,   when you have a breaker panel.  

[01:24:45] Unknown:

Big Kahuna is the worst for the the podcast,   listeners because he every time he comes on, he just wants to share all the photos, but I do appreciate it.  

[01:24:54] Unknown:

Man, I mean, this shit's so complicated. Like, if you're just listening,  

[01:24:57] Unknown:

I don't know what a little drawing.  

[01:25:00] Unknown:

Especially if you guys are, like, multitasking, you're probably   zoning out, falling asleep.   Anyways, so if I understand it correctly, in the United States, all your residential power is,   is, 110.   And   if   the way that works is you have your power lines   and you got your transformer. And I believe all the transformer is doing is it's it's   it's scaling down   the amperage so that it can bring it into your house. Because if there's too much amperage in your house Scaling down the voltage.   Scaling down the voltage to bring it in your house. So you got a transformer,   and what happens is out of this transformer is 2 wires, and these 2 wires go directly into your breaker.  

And   each of those wires is a 110 and a 110.  

[01:25:53] Unknown:

To ground to ground.  

[01:25:55] Unknown:

It's a 1 it's a 110 and a 110 and a ground is what's coming in the wire. No. No. 1 no. No. 110 to ground  

[01:26:02] Unknown:

to each phase. And then when you go phase to phase, you get the   the 240 or the 208 depending on if it's commercial or residential.  

[01:26:12] Unknown:

Man, this is yeah. This is where I get a little bit lost. But, like, so you have the the 2 one tens in there, and then, like, you gotta pretty much combine them to make your 220,   or 240, I guess. And that's that's when you power your electric range, your electric,   oven,   your Bitcoin miners.   But when you're just doing, like, a standard outlet for your phone, it only takes one of those legs and   pushes that through your circuit. A neutral.  

[01:26:41] Unknown:

Yeah. 1 of those legs and a neutral back to ground.  

[01:26:44] Unknown:

Okay. So when you're doing 3 phase, you get 3   legs that come from your transformer.   Is it a 110, 110, 110? Or  

[01:26:54] Unknown:

Yes.   Okay. And then you just have to do some, like The ground. Yep. Yeah. Wonky shift to be more specific. Yeah. Each each phase of it each phase of it, yeah, one 120 to ground is is what it is. And then each phase to phase   is 240 or 208 depending.  

[01:27:12] Unknown:

I gotta interrupt you for just a second, Boulder. Just so that everyone knows this   do not work on this information.  

[01:27:21] Unknown:

Hire a professional electrician. This is just so you get some sort of basic understanding. But this is so you, like, you know what to talk to the electrician about. Exactly.   But, like, a licensed electrician is is is fairly cheap in the scheme of things and, well worth it. Do not kill yourself.  

[01:27:42] Unknown:

Yeah. It does a lot of damage to expensive equipment.  

[01:27:48] Unknown:

So if you bring in a if you bring in headset. If you bring in a licensed electrician and you   you tell them, yeah, okay. I have this   Bitcoin miner or if you wanna say like, I have this server   that needs 220.   He's gonna probably default to 2 phase. Right?  

[01:28:10] Unknown:

Whatever the equipment's running on and what it calls for in the power supply of the miner. I guess that was my original question. I think maybe Matt was alluding to when he asked me my what my question was was, what is the benefit to 3 phase?  

[01:28:25] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:28:26] Unknown:

It runs higher voltage runs higher efficiency.  

[01:28:31] Unknown:

Okay. So it's   watts divided by  

[01:28:35] Unknown:

volts equals amps. Able to get, like, if you were able to get 480   volt miners, it seems like that would be ideal.   It'd run more efficiently, but I don't think I don't I don't I haven't looked into to see if they ever make those or the power supplies or  

[01:28:49] Unknown:

No. They don't. Would entail.   They don't. But that's the equation that you work with is,   watts divided by volts equals amps. So as long as you can kick up those volts,   you're using   less amps, and amps are what you pay for in the end. Like, kilowatts are essentially just another version of amps.   So you're not you're not taking in the amount the quantity   amount of electric.   You're just taking it in faster, and you're taking it in  

[01:29:22] Unknown:

potentially higher. It's more efficient.   It's more efficient to run it at higher voltages.  

[01:29:28] Unknown:

Okay. That's what I was always wondering. Because that's why data centers all run 3 phase.   And then what is   why do I not understand   if it's   208-2083  

[01:29:40] Unknown:

I guess for an example on it like, I guess one example would be, like, some massive motors that I run.   If they were to have the horsepower,   if you were doing them at a 120 volts,   these massive motors that are  

[01:30:05] Unknown:

Did I lose him? Oh, I was gonna say, did I freeze? No. We all lost him.  

[01:30:12] Unknown:

Big Motor didn't want him to continue his conversation. Yeah. No shit.  

[01:30:18] Unknown:

So efficiency gains. I get that. And that's why I assume   that's why,   data centers run on 3 phase. And I've talked to plenty of people that that do that, and I just never knew exactly why, and I couldn't understand   what the   what the trade offs were. I knew there had to been trade offs. Like, running single phase is easy.   Running 3 phase,   far more difficult.  

[01:30:46] Unknown:

I don't know what he what he means by efficiency gains. So, like,  

[01:30:52] Unknown:

Because because you're taking in less amps.  

[01:30:55] Unknown:

I mean, if you're just looking at p equals IV, right, you have a much higher voltage that allows you to you have a constant power. Your miner always wants to consume a certain amount of power.   You have your higher voltage that gives you a lower amperage draw.   So I assume that means you can have,   much lower   amp breakers.  

[01:31:17] Unknown:

Yeah. You're you're you're you're consuming less power   because power is actually measured in a ounce, not volts or anything like that. Like, your consumption   doesn't matter how many volts you can sum consume.  

[01:31:31] Unknown:

It's measuring how many amps you consume. That's what you're paying for. Boulder's back now. What's what's up Boulder? We lost you there.   What what are you calling out? We lost you when you were saying if you're running a big motor.  

[01:31:47] Unknown:

It it's running more efficiently at at the higher,   voltage, but it's still as much as you're getting charged is the the kilowatt   on it. But   it's more just the efficiency of the equipment you're running with it. I I think it's the higher voltage is where it's beneficial.  

[01:32:03] Unknown:

When you say efficiency, are you referring to a lower amperage?  

[01:32:09] Unknown:

No. The efficiency of, like, the where you're losing electricity and and delivering   the when it's getting before it gets used,   like, your loss of electricity   is less when you're using higher voltage   because you're losing it   via resistance and wire.  

[01:32:27] Unknown:

Let me ask this. Okay. So when you look at a miner like, if if you pull up a minor graph,   I don't know if I have one up.   You see that the tera hash just goes like like, the variance is pretty crazy. Like, if you're running a 100 terahash minor, you can see that it's going way high and way low. Is that due to inefficiencies   and,  

[01:32:47] Unknown:

that's just share submissions. That's the variance, like, just inherent to mining because the pool is measuring the hash rate of a miner based on,   like, they're only receiving maybe 1 in every few 100,000,000,000,000   hashes that the miner is doing.   And that's how the the pool can, like, validate each share that's being submitted   without doing the same amount of proof of work as the actual miners are doing and consuming all of that energy a second time.  

[01:33:15] Unknown:

Okay. Let me take it a step further. If I plug my phone in, am I getting,   like,   a different   am I getting, like, a sign wave of different,   voltages going through that and it's charging at different speeds depending on what's going through there?  

[01:33:34] Unknown:

You're saying   efficiency on what are you plugging your phone in?  

[01:33:39] Unknown:

I'm just I guess I'm just trying to understand. I I don't I don't get it. I'm gonna shut up now. It's just I think it's power loss  

[01:33:46] Unknown:

when you're delivering it at, like, higher levels of energy   that you're losing it. You're not getting it as much of it to the   actual use of it versus   power loss of other electrical,   resistance you're getting.  

[01:34:03] Unknown:

So what's the difference between those 2? Like, how many how much power are you losing   with 1 phase or 2 phase relative to 3 phase?  

[01:34:14] Unknown:

You're losing more when you're running at higher amperages.  

[01:34:19] Unknown:

So it's an equation.   Watts divided by volts equals amps. So if you wanna keep   your amps stable,   because that's the amps you need to run the machine,   and   you want to divide   the watts by volts   when you increase   the volts,   which 3 phase does,   then you're saving on efficiency.   Does that make sense?  

[01:34:50] Unknown:

Yeah. The less amperage you use, the more efficient you'll run because you're you're you're losing you're not losing it as much   with the electrical system.  

[01:35:00] Unknown:

Exactly.   Moving on.  

[01:35:11] Unknown:

Has anybody ever tried batteries   as far as trying to balance out whenever the electricity is more expensive   and trying to have it where you're charging up batteries when it's  

[01:35:22] Unknown:

the less Why won't you just run the a 6 when it's cheaper?  

[01:35:26] Unknown:

Run them. Yeah. Run the a 6 and the batteries. So you're charging the batteries and you're   running the a 6, then you switch over the batteries whenever it gets expensive, but you don't have to kill the a 6. You can run them full speed   and just switch over the battery.  

[01:35:39] Unknown:

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just get more a 6? Yeah. And you're killing the batteries  

[01:35:44] Unknown:

and your   those are gonna need to be replaced, and there is always storage loss.   So it's not one for 1. It's not like you're charging the battery up, and it's giving you back the same amount of power later. You're better off just buying more miners and running them during the cheaper times. Right? Yep. And then shutting them off.  

[01:36:03] Unknown:

Or overclocking with friends with us.  

[01:36:06] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yep.   Because, like, what's the like, the storage loss on a on, like, a typical battery is, like, insane, isn't it?  

[01:36:18] Unknown:

It's terrible.   That's why wind and solar don't make any sense.  

[01:36:26] Unknown:

They make a little bit more sense in a Bitcoin world though, don't they?  

[01:36:32] Unknown:

I would say so. Yeah.  

[01:36:34] Unknown:

Not batteries. Mind with them instead of using batteries.  

[01:36:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But not yeah. Not batteries. I thought you meant that batteries make a little more sense in this No. No. No. No. Wind and solar make more sense in the Bitcoin world. Yeah. Yeah. But you you still need a grid connection there. That's the the big thing is, like, this is actually,  

[01:36:53] Unknown:

the the same exact type of thing that miners would have to figure out   with their local utility provider if they were trying to mine with a solar farm or a wind farm at a larger scale   is, like, what   what are we gonna be paying when we're consuming from the grid? And then do we tie into the grid for,   being able to send power back to it during the   peak production times? Or do we just are we just a consumer from the grid?   And then we have to, like, figure out how much we're consuming at any given time based on how much solar wind we're producing.   And then,   our grid rate is gonna be different from our   solar rate or our wind rate. And then maybe also on top of that, our grid rate is gonna change at different times of the day based on peak and off peak. And we also are gonna have some demand charge if we're consuming,   based on whatever the the maximum amount that we consume from the grid is. And that's where,   the like, anybody trying to mine on solar or wind will actually,   at least want to look into batteries as a way of, like, reducing that demand charge   because it may make sense that in order to maintain 100% uptime   with all of your miners, you might wanna have just, like,   maybe   20% or so of your total energy production capacity,   that you store in batteries just so that you don't ever have to   increase above your maximum threshold   that you're consuming from the grid so that your your demand charge stays lower.  

But, yeah, at home, I don't think batteries would make much sense unless you're just you have some solar panels on your roof and you have a bunch of of batteries, and you're mining fully from the solar power plus battery power.  

[01:38:39] Unknown:

Wouldn't that be what BRAINS is for, though? So if you have   if you have peak and off peak, like, whether the wind goes down   or, like, if you're on your own   solar wind farm,   your miners can overclock when there is plenty of   available energy, and then they'll isn't that what you were talking about with the brains systems that you do that?  

[01:39:05] Unknown:

It's just it's getting more complicated with   with figuring out, like, how to balance CapEx with OPEX,   because it may be the case that,   in order for you to buy the amount of miners that it would take to fully consume that peak power production.   Let's say it's a solar farm and and you have 8 hours per day that you're producing,   a peak amount, and then the rest of the day, you're pursuing much less or none at all.   Maybe it will make more sense from a, like, risk perspective and just a general investment   perspective   to buy a little bit of battery capacity,   just so that you you don't have to buy as many miners and you can,   reduce the total amount that you're ever consuming from the grid so that your your grid electricity rate is lower for the   12 to 14 hours a day that you're,   consuming from the grid. So maybe, like, you have,   batteries that are   20% of the total capacity that you need to consume in a day,   and you just run on that battery power to keep all of your miners online   when you're on pure grid power otherwise.  



[01:40:16] Unknown:

And that way, the amount that you're consuming from the grid is lower, and then your your grid electricity price is lower because your demand charge isn't as high. I just feel like that's so much extra build up, so much extra infrastructure that you're gonna have to take care of. Like, even if you had solar panels during the day   that did well, and then   maybe it was   maybe you're built on a coastal town where it's it's really windy at night or something so you can kinda   balance that with   whatever type of   firmware you have that you can   plan for that. I just think that building out that type of ins infrastructure is gonna cost you more than just buying from the grid in the first place. So maybe hydro and things like that are a little more reliable.  



[01:41:03] Unknown:

Well, the the government kinda screws it up with   offering a lot incentives, I think, for I don't believe that. In particular.  

[01:41:11] Unknown:

The the screws it up?  

[01:41:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   I think,  

[01:41:19] Unknown:

But what you're saying is, like, if you get a subsidy for installing the solar, then it could be worth it.  

[01:41:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   And not that I necessarily   would support that, but, like, just from a a mining perspective,   if you can   work something out where you can mine profitably for many years, then whatever it takes to do that, I would I would do it. And I think for sure at an at home scale, if you live in a place with high solar density, like, I'm from New Mexico,   There's solar panels on a lot of roofs in the houses in New Mexico because we get sunshine, like,   300 something days per year, and it's it's relatively high intensity.   Like, the price that you pay for electricity in general when you install solar panels goes down significantly. There's already   really good incentives to do it even if you don't factor in Bitcoin mining.  

But if you just, like, replace   selling to the grid when you're producing extra with mining Bitcoin instead, I think it can make a whole lot of sense if you're using low CapEx machine like s nines and m twenty s's   so that you're not, like, taking on a ton of extra risk when you   do the mining part portion of it.  

[01:42:37] Unknown:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me.   There are shit ton of in like, subsidies and incentives to get people to do solar, and I don't understand why you'd ever sell it back to the grid if you combine.   Right. Because they give you, like, a shit price  

[01:42:53] Unknown:

too. Yep.   The breakeven electricity price   is basically   the price that you the the amount of revenue that you're making per kilowatt hour.   So that's what you can view it. Like, just the trade off is   if I sell it back to the grid,   whatever they're willing to buy it for, it's probably gonna be, like, 3 or 4¢ per kilowatt hour because they still wanna make a margin on it.   If if you can   mine at,   like, 13, 14, 15¢ per kilowatt hour of revenue,   then you might as well be mining with all that excess and just never sell any back to the grid. And maybe even it would make sense to out,   overbuild your solar panels so that you have more, and then you can you can have a few extra miners there. And and,   and then maybe, like, you have a total battery system too, and   and you're consuming from the grid at night and you have a 247   uptime mining operation at your home   where your electricity price is considerably lower than it would be if you were just using the utility   because you have that solar.  



[01:43:59] Unknown:

Or even go search out individuals that have already built out   solar solar systems,   like you're saying, on their roofs in New Mexico.   And   the price they're getting to sell that back to the grid is embarrassing.   So you tell them, hey. I'll give you I'll give you more than that,   and I'll just put a miner over here and it turns on   when you'd otherwise be selling it back to the grid.  

[01:44:29] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:44:33] Unknown:

Does, I know there's a lot of talk of, like, smart meters coming for   households. Does that help with any of this metering stuff?  

[01:44:47] Unknown:

Well, I could imagine just that you have go ahead, Boulder.  

[01:44:52] Unknown:

No. No. I don't mean anything on that.  

[01:44:56] Unknown:

I was gonna say I could I could imagine that you have,   like,   a management system for your minors where you're also taking into account all of the other things that are consuming energy in your household.   And then you're   automatically adjusting the amount of power consumed by the miners in order to never pass   whatever that peak threshold is that, like, makes your electricity prices   unaffordable because of the demand charge.   So what we were talking about earlier that, like, if you just randomly run   some high energy   device or appliance for   5 minutes, then the energy supplier is going to charge you as if you were running that thing for the entire month or whatever it was,   then it would kinda make sense to have, like, your all of your clients as in and everything that consumes a significant amount of energy   tied into the same management system as your miners so that you can,   like, use your miners as kind of a demand response in your own little household.  

Like, if you're running your air conditioner, then you run your miners at 800 watts instead of 1600 or something like that.  

[01:46:12] Unknown:

I mean, I think my perspective   is a little bit   different than most people. When I hear smart meters,   I, like, cringe a little bit   because, like, it's   it's it's, like, more surveillance   coming in. Now now it's coming into the power.  

[01:46:32] Unknown:

Right.   And you have to ask the Internet in order to turn off your lights or or turn on your fridge or whatever. And if if your Internet goes out or or the power goes out, then you're just screwed.  

[01:46:48] Unknown:

So, guys, I mean, we're   an hour and 47 minutes in here. I think it's been a very productive conversation.   I think,   we went really far into the weeds because,   you know, I I had no idea really what was going on the majority of the time. I was just trying my best and learning along the way, which is usually my favorite type of dispatch, so kudos to you all on that.  

[01:47:14] Unknown:

Do you guys have other topics you wanna discuss here? Or I guess I have one for Sovereign's been asking a question.   I don't know. I I don't know if there's more questions, but I think that would be a good way to finish this up.   It sounds like Sovereign, I think what you're asking is is there a way to have   brands have multiple tuning profiles   and and be able to adjust those on the fly.   And there's not a way to do that right now, but I I think in the future as we,   you know, as   you taper up and down your mining,   draw   to, like, offset things in your house. You know, if you need more power for your household, you tune it down. If you need less, you tune it up.  

That would be a really cool feature to add to brands. And it it'll allow you to do a lot of cool things like,   you know, use your miner to heat your house and have it tune up and down,   to match a heat instead of match a specific power draw.   So so, yeah, this doesn't exist yet. I think that answers the question that you're asking about.   If if you can auto tune for all the different,   profiles  

[01:48:28] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I think he's he's specifically asking   in in terms of the situation where,   like, you are you're running solar, you have a subsidy,   you're selling back to the grid, and you're trying to, instead of sell back to the grid, use it yourself.   So that case very easy to to do.  

[01:48:47] Unknown:

Yeah. So in that case, you would wanna tune your miner up and down, like, draw more power when there's more solar energy available. But are you, like, manually clicking?   Right now, you would have to manually do it. You'd have to code it yourself and, use, like, a Raspberry Pi or something to do it. And and you would tell it to just change   the amount of power draw you want at any given time.   But if there was a way to put that in the firmware to detect how much   power you're self producing,   then yes. You could,   you could   it would be great if if brains could detect that and scale it up and down so that you're matching your power produced with your power   draw of the minor.  



[01:49:29] Unknown:

I think the best approach to that would be is not necessarily   powering your miner up or down, but instead   diverting the heat   into   other things, like so if you're going to   I don't know.   Okay. So the water heater can't be heated all the time.   The   if you live in a cold environment, you can't be just pumping that out to thaw out your driveway all the time or anything like that. Like,   I think it would be more advantageous   rather than powering your miner up or down is deciding   is having some sort of, like you said, a,   a raspberry pie or something that   determines   what's been heated enough, what hasn't, where to divert the heat, what needs it, where can it go,  

[01:50:17] Unknown:

And then we can   Yeah. It all goes hand in hand because, you know, you could scale your miner up and down to get a certain heat threshold for your hot tub,   but also   maximize the amount of power you're drawing from your solar panels.   And, I mean, I think that's the that's the direction we're heading. If if Bitcoin continues on its path, people are gonna try to figure out how to how to incorporate these things into   every household for,   grid balancing.  

[01:50:43] Unknown:

It's gonna be absolutely amazing, man. I can't I'm so excited to see what people come up with.  

[01:50:49] Unknown:

I would add to that the,   with the immersion stuff we've seen in the last couple of months, a lot of, like, open source DIY immersion builds where people   are building their own tanks or just, like, going through the process of setting up an immersion system and and documenting it for the public to see.   If we're going to have something like we've been talking about where   you can take into account, like, having different energy sources and different amounts of consumption for other other things in your household and all of that.   Like, I'd unfortunately, I don't think it will come from brains because we have limited resources and we need to focus them on   serving the the largest miners that we can,   just from a business perspective. So, like,   doing committing tons and tons of resources to at home miners,   in this scenario just probably isn't gonna make sense. Do you know what anytime soon. Do you know what your breakdown is?  



[01:51:48] Unknown:

Like In terms of, like, resource allocation? No. No. Not in terms of resource allocation. I know you know what that breakdown is.   Slush pool is   predominantly considered   the pleb pool. It is considered the pool   that, you know, Ronan,   when he gets really drunk, he decides to tweet out that he wants to start his own pool, and every response to it is, but we already have slush.   Do you know what the breakdown is between, like, small scale? Maybe, I guess, I would say, like, under under a petahash   versus over a petahash, like, what that breakdown is?  

[01:52:28] Unknown:

I don't know exactly in in those terms. I know that we have   approximately 10 or 11,000   minuteors in total  

[01:52:37] Unknown:

on the I thought you have higher than that. Doesn't it actually tell me how many you have? It's, like, 16,000 or something.  

[01:52:45] Unknown:

I haven't checked that out. Yeah. The average the average is a 1,000 miners per   miner.   Like, a 1,000 machines per miner.  

[01:52:54] Unknown:

Right. We have 182,312   active workers.   Oh, wow. Yeah. 17,150   active users.  

[01:53:03] Unknown:

That doesn't tell us exactly If you don't have a 1,000 minors, you're not a you're you're not in a plug pool.  

[01:53:11] Unknown:

Oh, because it tells you 17,000 active users and then a 182,000   active workers.   And the workers are?   The actual workers. Is each minor is a worker?  

[01:53:23] Unknown:

I as far as I know, that that number is not necessarily   a 100% accurate because   I don't think that we can recognize when people are using, like, aggregation proxies.   So if if a mining farm has a 100 machines, but they're using a proxy in between   their farm and the connection with the pool, then it can appear as, like, one machine to us.   I don't know how common that is. So it could be that that's not very common or that we have some way of still seeing how many,   like, we we have monitoring services as part of the pool.   So it kind of makes sense for people to   connect each individual worker   if they wanna have that monitoring service. But there's a lot of farms that have, like, their own   farm management and monitoring   third party service,   where they wouldn't need to use the pool.  



[01:54:13] Unknown:

So, I mean, again, you can tell me to go fuck myself, but I'm curious. Like, your gut,   what what does your gut say percentage wise,   the amount   the amount of of people using your pool that are under a petahash?   Or it's, like, 20%,   15%, or something?  

[01:54:31] Unknown:

The amount of users under a petahash, I would guess, is, like, over 50%.  

[01:54:37] Unknown:

So we're already doing what you consider the blood pool?  

[01:54:39] Unknown:

No. Those numbers don't add up.  

[01:54:42] Unknown:

The hash is what matters.  

[01:54:44] Unknown:

Because if there's  

[01:54:46] Unknown:

oh, I look at the hash rate. If there's a hard about users, then it's much much different from like, I would guess that   at least 80% of our hash rate comes from   maybe   10 mining entities.   There you go. But That's what I'm talking about. Tell me,   like, how many how many of our users, what portion of that 17,000   active users   has less than a pet ash? I would guess it's like   something in the 50%   plus range because there's so many minors with, like, 1 or 2 s nines or or just 1 s 17 or m 20 s connected to Slush. So Yeah. And then I got I have a bunch of different accounts that have  

[01:55:26] Unknown:

Yeah. But Ronan, I mean, if you if you notice there, I wasn't   you're above club status because I said petahash. It's the limit.  

[01:55:34] Unknown:

Yeah. No. But what I mean You're a student now. What   I what I mean though is if 80% is controlled by   10 entities,   that's not really a pleb pool.  

[01:55:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, if you're renting out subways and using them to fucking mine, like, I don't know if you're a pleb anymore.  

[01:55:54] Unknown:

Oh,   that cuts deep.   So, Ronan, when are you gonna launch a mining pool? I don't knock I don't knock slush. That's where I tell everyone to go.   The plug pool thing, it was started as a joke, and I don't actually plan on ever doing that anytime soon. But, I mean   come on.  

[01:56:16] Unknown:

Sounds like a big deal. There there are tools with with double our hash rate and maybe   15% of our users.   Like, for sure in   the,   relatives from a relative standpoint, we are by far the closest thing that exists to a web pool. I agree. And that was that was my entire point when I said something like that. Is  

[01:56:39] Unknown:

without slush, if something happens to slush pool   I'm a devout slush pool guy. I I really am. I show you guys more than   probably any other product in the entire industry.   My   my concern is if something happens to you guys, where are we gonna go? There's nowhere else to go. There has to be alternatives.  

[01:57:01] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a good deal.   Yeah. Hopefully, other pools are   I I I I'm kind of concerned with the the North American pools   Yeah. Being like a more much more regulate much more regulated,   entities than we are.  

[01:57:22] Unknown:

And then, like, and then to, like, go to a dinner party in order to be a part of their pool.  

[01:57:28] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. And I don't like I don't like that at all. Leave it up to Matt to take advantage of me when I'm when I'm sick.  

[01:57:36] Unknown:

Only only time he knows that he can get a shot in. Ronan, literally, every single one of us, 15 claws deep, has had the idea for a pleb pool. So   don't tell me that it hurt you too much. Claws deep.   No. Yeah. The North American pools are concerned. Right, Dan?  

[01:57:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Like,   there's there's reason to celebrate the Chinese mining ban in terms of decentralization.   It was definitely   a much bigger attack service having   more than 50% of the hash rate in China.   But that said, like, there's no   there was no chance that China was ever gonna come in and start selling pools,   don't mind these transactions.   Only these ones are okay. And if you don't do it, then we're going to arrest   your executives and blah blah blah and shut down your service. Like, obviously,   the Chinese government is not friendly to pools and and pools are having   they're now being blocked by the great firewall, and they're having all kinds of issues. Every pool that had their,   domain registered in China is screwed right now and and, like, trying to   figure out solutions.  

But I don't think that China was ever going to be   censoring transactions and Right. And really, like, regulating pools.   So I I'm happy to see   a large portion of Hash rate moving to North America and the US in particular   and happy to see mining pools   growing in North America.   But I don't wanna see   them get more than 50% either.   Like, what I what'd be really great, and I don't expect it to happen. I don't know really how it would happen, but it would be great if there was, like, a pool in South America and a pool in,   in Asia somewhere besides China.  

And,   like, those pools had significant enough portions of hash rate that if anything were to happen with any other jurisdiction, then then miners could just migrate over and the it everything would be fine.   I think once we get into   any pools   having more than 50%, then,   we better have some stratum b 2 adoption or else that is   some,  

[01:59:51] Unknown:

like, non negligible attack factor. Well, it and I mean, it's more than just a single pool getting over 50%. Right. We have, like, a couple regulated   US pools  

[02:00:00] Unknown:

together being Combined 50%. Yeah.  

[02:00:04] Unknown:

It it starts, I mean, at 50%, it doesn't necessarily become a concern   fully in terms of censoring transactions. I mean, you still have   49%.   If you're talking 51%, you still have 49% of miners that will include your transaction, especially if you pay a higher fee.   But,   the higher it goes,   the more of a concern it is. And ultimately,   like, I fucking love this country, but we're the land of KYC. We're the place that, you know, shut down BitMex and fucks around with   Kraken and stuff and makes it so that you go to a website and it's like   it's like North Korea, Iran,   and fucking America can't access this website.  

That like, that's us. We do that.   So it definitely is a concern. And all the rah rah around   American Hash is,   and I mean, a lot of the American Hash is concentrated in Texas, so it's even more,   It's not even just,   like,   federal government you have to worry about. You also have to worry about the individual states.  

[02:01:11] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's   the the big advantage for Chinese miners was their proximity to hardware manufacturers.   The big advantage for American miners and Canadian miners to a lesser extent is the access to capital markets.   And as long as especially, like, publicly traded miners,   like, shout out to Grid, they just   announced a a spec that they're doing for $3,300,000,000.   But, like, their   miners in the US are the only ones doing that and and Canada, like Bitfarms   Hud 8 in Canada. But for the most part, it's it's like publicly traded mining companies in the US   have such easier access to capital than anybody else   that they're going to be able to scale really, really rapidly.  

And,   like, even if there's really cheap energy available in other parts of the world, which there certainly is,   for those miners to compete, they're gonna need access to capital   at at least, like, somewhat similar   capacities   as the miners in North America. So,   this is like I I've been in South America for most of this year and finishing out the year here. And that's, like, one of my focuses is going to be trying to figure out how to serve the miners of   Paraguay and,   Brazil and Argentina and all these countries down here,   who, like, they they may have abundant energy,   but they they're gonna have a much harder time financing hardware,   hardware purchases and infrastructure build outs.  

But but we're gonna need them in order to maintain this decentralization now that there's not the 2 big hubs with China and the US,   assuming that mining doesn't   ever return to China or at least not in the near future, which I'm not so sure about. I wouldn't be surprised at all   if there is a significant amount of hash rate in China again in the near future.   But we can't we can't assume that there will be. And,   with that,   we definitely would it would be nice to see South American miners scaling to a lesser extent. There's even hope for miners in in Africa,   emerging. We we already know some, like, there's minors in the Congo,   but maybe we could see,   like, for example, Ethiopia has 4 major rivers   and a ton of potential for hydropower   where we could see, like, Ethiopia becoming a major Bitcoin mining hub,   but it's so much harder to   to build a business in Ethiopia and, like, to have the   risk management to know that you're gonna actually receive the ASICs if you try to ship them across those borders   to know that nobody's gonna come and and try to, like, shoot up your security and steal all the ASICs and all that type of stuff.  

So,   like, yeah, I think there's there's a lot of things working against,   decentralization globally now. And   that's what I I hope that we can see,   El Salvador be successful with mining and and a lot of other countries.  

[02:04:16] Unknown:

That's what I was just gonna suggest was a   Salvadorian   mining pool. I mean,   we have   we have a lot of people that are very supportive of that that would point their ash rate at something like that. And I'm not talking, like,   competing with slush pool or anything like that. Like, that that's not my plea pool idea. It's just the,  

[02:04:39] Unknown:

Club pool.  

[02:04:42] Unknown:

Each their own.   It's just something that I think that could really work. And if you if you wanted to go to El Salvador, I'm sure that they would I mean, there's plenty   of Salvadorians down there that are very,   very,   apt to do all the things that you need. You can hire a look well, any any regardless   regardless   of where I was going with that is   I think that's an a prime place.   Matt, you son of a bitch. I might just have to go do it now.  

[02:05:20] Unknown:

I, look, I I shared your thought. That's all.  

[02:05:25] Unknown:

Sorry. It's just, like,   we've seen over the years, like, since I joined Brains, I've heard   can't count how many times, like, somebody's starting a pool   and so few of them materialize. And then even the ones that do materialize, I think probably a few of them have, buyer's remorse.   Like running a pool is   extremely technically difficult.   Like, it's not something that you can just decide to do, and then 6 months later, you're gonna have a working pool.   It's super, super difficult.   Yeah. And   then financing it competitively. Like, you you need,   you you need to have deep reserves in order   to compete with all the other pools that are offering,  

[02:06:10] Unknown:

like, very, very low fees and full paper shares. That's why I would go after a government. That's why I would go after a government to support it. Well, I mean, there's massive economies of scale. Right? And that's why you see  

[02:06:23] Unknown:

the successful new pools usually are   are people like Marathon, where they have,   you know, they have access to capital markets. They have a shit ton of hash themselves.   So they create a pool. They're the main miner of that pool,   and then they try and encourage other people to join it through rebates or whatever.   Right.   And, I mean, that is what you know, has always been one of the major concerns, right, which is pool centralization.   This idea that there's   there are legitimate   incentive issues in terms of economies of scale when it comes to running a pool.  

[02:07:02] Unknown:

But if you had a government   subsidizing   the whole thing  

[02:07:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Then you're a fucking government lackey. Like, why am I gonna support your government pool, bro? That's the keyword, though. Like, the only way to do it basically is to have it subsidized.   Whether it's being subsidized by like, pools are loss leading businesses now.   Like, we we've focused so heavily on the firmware because the firmware is, like, incentives are aligned. We're not a middleman just taking a fee and offering a service. We're actually, like, helping miners make more money. So for us to take a fee   there, it's it's like more of a win win situation whereas   pools are becoming more and more of just a,   like, use our pool so that you also use our financial   platform or use our pools so that you also use x y z other service, which is where we actually make money.  



[02:07:54] Unknown:

And so is. That's why I continuously   shill slush pool is that you don't see or I don't see   other pools coming out with   products that are actually bettering   mining.   Like, they're just they're just taking their rake and doing their thing. Like Yeah. Yeah.  

[02:08:14] Unknown:

I mean, I mean, sludges   anyone who's done any kind of research, I mean, you guys,   you guys are the real deal, and I really do appreciate you,   all jokes aside.   Very grateful to have Slush here. We'd be in a way worse situation.   It'd be nice if,   people that had microbt,   WhatsMiners could,   participate in Stratham v 2, but,   that's just a little bit of a new thing. Same TM. Yeah. 2 weeks.   Guys, I mean, this has been a fantastic conversation. We're a little over 2 hours.   I really did appreciate it.   I think we should probably wrap up here.   When we wrap up, I'd like to, finish with some final thoughts.  

So let's do that. Final thoughts.   We'll start with Dan. What are your final thoughts?  

[02:09:12] Unknown:

Boy, I would just say,   if you have   any possibility of mining at home, find some ways to make it work, whether it's, like, reusing the heat   or using some more sophisticated   strategy   to optimize the amount of,   electricity that you're consuming.   But, like, the plebs really are   the backbone of of Bitcoin and having more people involved in mining. It's been really great to see the past year how many people have been just educated about Bitcoin mining that used to not understand anything about it.   And the best way to get to learn more is to just get an s nine and plug it in and start troubleshooting and and hashing with it. So I recommend anybody who's got the the itch to do that, just go for it.  

[02:09:58] Unknown:

Thank you, Dan.   Neil, Ronen Miner, final thoughts.  

[02:10:04] Unknown:

I just wanna thank everyone.   I love everyone in this community.   And,   I mean, whether it's my personal life or   what goes on in Bitcoin or whatever, everyone's been so supportive of everything that we do.   I just   it's crazy. It's crazy to know so many people that are just such good people.  

[02:10:26] Unknown:

That's it. Thank thank you, Neil. I just wanted to say,   I'm I'm very happy you found your dog kitten. I was   my whole family was,   was worried about it. So it it's just really great to see you guys reunited.  

[02:10:43] Unknown:

Thanks, man.  

[02:10:46] Unknown:

Big Koona. Actually, fuck you, Big Koona. Boulder, final thoughts.  

[02:10:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm a definitely check and see about the different power consumption rates of different areas and and packages you could buy and   look into that because that's definitely something that I didn't look that far into. So look into that a little bit more in the future.  

[02:11:09] Unknown:

Thank you, Boulder. Boulder, let's,   we're gonna do another mining thing in the I I wanna do constant mining panels   on dispatch, and you should definitely join us in the future. I would love that. That'd be great.  

[02:11:23] Unknown:

You should also post more online. I'd love to learn learn some more from someone who's working,   you know, working right with electricity.  

[02:11:32] Unknown:

He's getting me back. Big Coon, final thoughts.  

[02:11:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Don't be afraid to call your power provider. There's a lot of different ways out there that,   you know, you can get cheaper cheaper rates that you might not know about. It's either out there in the public or you can call them. They'll walk you through it.   And then I'm just looking forward to,   Bitcoin mining   being used to,   you know, regulate demand in the household and on,   the grid as a whole.   This has been fun.  

[02:12:05] Unknown:

Thank you, Hoonah. I appreciate you.   Freaks, I hope you found this conversation helpful.   If it was way over your head, consider listening to cildispatch   31.   That's cildispatch.com/cd31,   where we start from the basics on Bitcoin mining. There'll be a lot more Bitcoin mining content here, mostly focused on home mining,   because fuck the suits.   Also,   I will be at the Nashville Bitcoin meetup on December 8th,   and the whole focus there will be on mining.   We have Econo Alchemist,   multiple time guest on the show, and Diverter,   also a guest on the show and a good friend who will be there.  

Consider stopping by. If you are in the area, you can look up Nash Bitcoiners   on Twitter.   I wanna thank all of our guests for joining us. I truly do appreciate you guys.   This was   a very good conversation.   Like I said earlier,   the conversations   where I'm in over my head are the ones I enjoy the most on dispatch. That is kind of the point of the show to begin with. And I wanna thank the Freaks, for joining us   again for another Bitcoin Tuesday.   I really do love you all.   Neil is telling me in the private chat that he cannot make the National Bitcoin Meetup,   and I do forgive you, Neil.  

Thank you   thank you, Bikkhuna. Thank you, Neil. Thank you, Boulder. Thank you, Daniel.   Really do appreciate you guys. Thanks for stopping by.  

[02:13:38] Unknown:

Thanks, everybody.  

[02:13:40] Unknown:

Cheers. Thanks, Freaks. Thanks, Matt.  

[02:13:51] Unknown:

You guys still there?   Like, this is our chat only now?  

[02:13:55] Unknown:

No. It isn't our channel only now. The music is starting.  

[02:14:00] Unknown:

Shit. Yeah. No. Sorry. I can't make it, man.  

[02:14:03] Unknown:

I love  

[02:14:10] Unknown:

you, brother.  

[02:15:03] Unknown:

Some hiding from police.   Cocaine seats, all white light, I got the whole thing bleached.   Drug dealer chic.   I'm wondering if the dog's prayers reach. It's pious, pious, who God loves pious. Socrates asks  

[02:16:53] Unknown:

give me   some. Reform the new religion.   No sins as long as there's permission.   And deception is the only felony to never fuck nobody without telling me.   Sunglasses and Advil,   last night with Mariel.   Sun coming up 5 AM. I wonder if they got cab still. Think about the girl and all leopard. Who was rubbing the wood like Tricky Shepherd? Two tattoos, one red. No apologies. The other said love is cursed by monogamy.   That's something that the pastor don't preach.   That's something that a teacher can't teach.   When we die, the money can't keep, but we probably spend it all because the pain ain't cheap.   Preach. Human beings in a   vibe. What's a mind to a king?  

What's a king  

[02:18:51] Unknown:

Love you, freaks.   I hope you enjoyed that episode. Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.   Reminder that you can support the show. You can support dispatch   by buying   a hat that are now in stock. So dispatch.com/stack.   There's also links there to buy pins from BTC pins, Ride or Die   Freak,   and   you can also buy a Flask   at siladispatch.com/stack.   Those proceeds also go to open source development.   I appreciate you all. We will have rabbit hole recap on Thursday   at 1 EST,   which is   1800   UTC,   and we will have another dispatch on Tuesday.   I'm not sure on the time yet. That's gonna be with the Noble guys.  

We're gonna be talking about the Nautilito,   their new   very cheap   Node product,   so be sure to check that out.   And, once again, if you're considering going to Bitcoin 2022 in Miami April 6th through 9th,   I am heavily involved with that event.   It's gonna be an absolutely massive   event, Bitcoin only.   There's a music festival at the end, but the big thing that I'm really excited about is this open source stage that's, like, 2,000 people.   If it was by itself, it'd be, like, one of the largest conferences   for open source development, maybe the largest.   I have a   discount code for you. You cannot share it on Twitter.  

I do not get a cut from it, so it's higher than all the other discount codes. So you're not allowed to share it on Twitter, and that code is open source.   So if you are gonna go use that code, it applies to all tickets.   I love you all. Stay humble in Stack. Question for you quick.   We're still live, but yes.  

[02:20:53] Unknown:

That's fine.   Is there gonna be another one of these mining big   in Nashville?  

[02:21:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the the plan is right now, like, the way the National Bitcoin meetup is working is   going through topics.   So there was one on privacy. There is one on self custody.   This one's on mining.   I'm not sure what the next one's on.   But, I mean, there's many months in the year. Like, there's definitely gonna be another mining one. I mean, mining's such a massive part of it.  

[02:21:25] Unknown:

I'm fucking So you should join us for the next mining one. Yeah. I'm bummed out, man. I even had the days off, and then it was just like, okay. Can't go, I guess.  

[02:21:33] Unknown:

You know, Neil, since, like, it's just me, you, and the Ryan and Dais, like, you wanna talk about compass for a little bit?   Okay.   Do you see this guy's question in mall 101?   Like, I felt bad that we didn't answer his question.  

[02:21:49] Unknown:

So is having your minor hosted at Compass not a good idea as home money? No. It is certainly not.   Very, very   perfect example of not your keys, not your coins.   So,   sure, you're mining your own wallet,   but at the same time,   you spent a tremendous   amount of money   on a miner. Like, $10,000   is or or more   is a lot of money to anyone. I don't care how much money you have.   10,000   to $15,000  

[02:22:26] Unknown:

is a a lot of fucking money. Of money.  

[02:22:28] Unknown:

And you can't know   whether or not that   those miners are secured or not. You can't know whether or not   what they're doing with your miner, unless they can   send you a live video of your serial number miner running, which  

[02:22:48] Unknown:

probably wouldn't prove anything anymore. But even if they could do that, I mean, in a week, they could just   take the monitor and sell the monitor if they wanted to. I mean, there's there's no there's no way to really verify it. There's a trust relationship there. Yeah. And it's it's not one that I would do with a company that's so new  

[02:23:07] Unknown:

because   you really don't know what they're doing. They could be rehypothecating.   They could be doing a lot of things.   The point is you're you're adding trust to the equation. You're you're adding a trusted 3rd party. And the whole reason to be mining is so that you can take trust out of it   and take KYC out of it, and all the other things   that   get you into mining   are   are completely up in smoke. Like, you're not   you're not mining to get rich  

[02:23:42] Unknown:

unless you Wait. We're not doing that?  

[02:23:45] Unknown:

Well, we're always gonna get rich.   But if   you're taking you   if you're if you're given if you're giving your money to a 3rd party, you might as well just be buying Bitcoin   because that's gonna accelerate faster.  

[02:24:00] Unknown:

Well, no. To me   I mean, so so   so with Compass,   I mean, you have   cheaper electricity, you're getting a cheaper power   rate, and you're getting easier   I I think mining is easier than people expect, but it it is easier than necessarily mining yourself, so you're getting that aspect out of it.   Compared   that's compared to mining with the trade off being that you're trusting a third party that could fuck you at any moment. And you're not just trusting them, you're also trusting whoever they're hosting with and whatever country they're hosting in. So, like, Compass, for instance, has, like, Russian,   warehouses. Like, you're not only trusting Compass, you're not only trusting the warehouse owner, but you're also trusting trusting the Russian government not to fuck around.  

But compared to buying Bitcoin, I mean,   the Compass doesn't have   even if you use a credit card, the KYC   is   different than if you are buying Bitcoin straight up. Right? Because you're, like, you're paying with credit card,   and   they don't know your UTXOs.   Right? Because your because your miner is connected to Slush or another pool, and then that pool is sending it out. So they have to collaborate to know your UTXs. If you're using something like Cash App,   you're giving your full ID information,   more ID information than you're giving   with Compass,   and you're, like, scanning your face and shit, and then they know all of your withdrawal addresses, period. Okay.  

So it's a little bit there's another trade off there as well.  

[02:25:40] Unknown:

So I would I would be curious on how exactly   like, say that your miner doesn't necessarily exist   there.   I'm just running I'm just running a   Like the Ponzi scheme scenario? Yeah. Like, they're selling your miner to pay people   that came in before you, and then they'll sell their miners to pay people that come in after you   just to catch up to what they may may or may not have to do,   they can't really pay your address,   except for when it comes to   that thing where they were giving people $500   a month to delay their minors going online   for another month.  



[02:26:26] Unknown:

But that was a that was a credit to more minor purchases.  

[02:26:33] Unknown:

So you're so that minor you bought from me,   I'm not putting that online yet this month.   I gotta delay that a month, but I'll give you $500  

[02:26:42] Unknown:

for another miner. But you can get the miner shipped to you. I I know people have successfully gotten them shipped to them. Okay.   They seem to be shipping out miners if you ask them to ship them to you. I would say, like, if I was in a compass delayed scenario, I would just have it shipped to me.  

[02:27:02] Unknown:

I say fuck it. I think that they would   rather ship the miner to you at this point. Yeah. They don't wanna deal with the Because if they if they have power constraints, they would much rather get the miner off their books.   They cancel whatever   whatever contract they had with you   for   energy costs and all of that.  

[02:27:27] Unknown:

We're adding listeners because people realize we're still talking now.  

[02:27:31] Unknown:

This is the,   what's that? The post alpha or whatever?  

[02:27:36] Unknown:

I mean, it's it's it's kinda great. Like, all a sudden people are like, fuck. Like, I might have to stay till after the music video. Yeah. No. I kinda yeah. That's a good point. Now you can start now you can start,  

[02:27:48] Unknown:

monetizing the music videos that you play. It's like, hey. I mean, I'm doing the exact opposite, bro.  

[02:27:53] Unknown:

I, like, I get flagged for every music video   because I don't have permission to play them, but I just I   you know, this is not a this is not a monetized show. There's no ads or anything. So,  

[02:28:07] Unknown:

I like to end it with a with a nice fucking rip. Oh, my bottle doesn't have a cork on it. It has a screw top.  

[02:28:14] Unknown:

Dude, you never buy screw tops. It's crown it's crown royal.  

[02:28:20] Unknown:

Fair enough.  

[02:28:24] Unknown:

But, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like, you're trusting a third party. So you're adding third party risk to your mining operation.   And I honestly think, like, this   infatuation with low electricity cost. I mean, I know we just had a whole conversation on low,   like, trying to decrease,   your power   costs,   which you absolutely should do,   is not as   is not as important   as just getting off off of 0 in terms of mining in the first place. What I try to  

[02:28:56] Unknown:

I also try to explain   to people   exactly that with efficiency.   Like, okay. In s 9   compared to the efficiency of an s 19,   yeah, that's that's   substantial. That's something you should think about.   But, like, the different like, we were talking about, you can you can have the same model   of miner,   an m 32 and a 46 terahash or an m 32 and a 62 terahash or whatever you wanna   call them. They're the same model. They have different terraashes.   They probably have different efficiencies,   and then people, like, try to calculate all that out. And it's like   so I did I did the difference.  

102 Terahash,   what's minor,   110   Terahash,   s 19 j pro,   like, you were talking efficiency wise, if you did it per terahash,   it was, like, 3¢ a day.   It's like, so who cares,   like, at that point? Like, of of course, if you're running a mining farm or you have any substantial amount of miners running, that means something.   But   when you're when you're running   half a dozen miners or even a dozen miners, like, you're talking that's that's   that's a lot of money. That's a lot   of money that plebes don't have to be billed.   Either or.  

And   and so 3¢ a day times 12,   or we'll call 10. So that's 30¢ a day. Who cares? You're making so much money anyways that it's not really that big of a deal. Like, don't worry about efficiency unless you're running 1,000 and 100 or thousands of machines.   I'm living in a goddamn   quarantine house right now.  

[02:30:56] Unknown:

Yeah, dude. Get better soon, man. Yeah.   Well, thank you for joining us. I mean,   I always appreciate you joining, and, I'm sorry you won't be at the National Bitcoin Meetup.  

[02:31:08] Unknown:

I was   flattered to be invited   for 1, and I am   heartbroken   to not be able to make it for 2. Like, I already had days off and shit. I was already planning on going.  

[02:31:24] Unknown:

Well, I appreciate you not giving everyone their COVID   and, including myself.   And I hope to see you again soon, my dude.  

[02:31:35] Unknown:

Yeah. We'll we'll meet up again, man.  

[02:31:37] Unknown:

Take your time. Any final thoughts for the freaks now that you're,   you're an established guest? You came you you stayed later?  

[02:31:49] Unknown:

No. I just don't just   do what you think is right.   Everyone everyone kinda already knows what's right.   Help people fucking   answer questions.   If you're if you're a freak, you already know most more than most people,   and there's no reason that   you ignore people's questions or anything like that. Like, just fucking talk to people.   It's all I need is a helping hand.  

[02:32:19] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah.   I appreciate you, brother. Yeah.   Before we go, actually, one more thing.   Did you see that Compass if if you're still delayed, Compass is offering a free year of hosting?   Do you think that's enough?  

[02:32:35] Unknown:

Oh,  

[02:32:36] Unknown:

I didn't even know that. What do you think about that? That's a pretty I mean, I think that's a pretty generous offer.  

[02:32:42] Unknown:

Why would they do that?  

[02:32:45] Unknown:

Because they completely fucked over those people that are still waiting.  

[02:32:51] Unknown:

I had no idea. I kinda I kinda forgot about that   saga.  

[02:32:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Anyway, I appreciate you, brother. I hope to see you again soon.   To to Neil, to Ronan Minor,   give kid in a kiss for me,   and, to the freaks to almost deck sides. Love you all. Yep. Love you all. Later.