Citadel Dispatch

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Join Matt Odell as he sits down with dergigi & croesus_btc

EPISODE: 0.0.3

BLOCK: 664685

PRICE: 2962 sats per dollar

TOPICS: shitcoin regrets and pricing the world in sats

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Pay the players in US dollars what the players or agents do with the money is up to them. How do headlines like Panthers' Russell Okung becomes first NFL player to be paid in Bitcoin   prop up this cryptocurrency   market, Jack?  

[00:00:16] Unknown:

Here's my message to the NFL when they come out with headlines like that. You're right. We we don't have no relationship to the NFL. The NFL would never let Russell do anything like this. The NFL does not treat their players fair. Athletes   operate as independent businesses   and take care of themselves because they should because no one else does it for them And that's not fair. Russell wanted Bitcoin and they wouldn't allow it. So what I did is I built a consumer facing product where you don't have to go through HR, you don't have to go through payroll. It's in the hands of the individual. If the individual wants to allocate a percentage of their   income of their paycheck and save it and protect their wealth and free themselves.  

They have the power to do that with this product and we don't need anyone's permission for that. So why is the NFL disassociating from this headline? I don't know, but I could tell you this. It doesn't surprise me one bit. That's right on brand with them and Russell's doing what's in his best interest and what's in his family's best interest and we're here to support that. And so, you know, I think Bitcoin is gonna continue to make headlines. It's the biggest thing that's ever happened while any of us have been alive. It's a transformative technology and it's ushering in one of the greatest wealth transfers of all time and it's ultimately hope for humanity.   And so whether it's the NFL or whatever's next, it'll always be in the headlines. But in particular,   the NFL's disassociation from what Russell is doing is, I mean, it's exemplifying   of exactly the problem that Russell is trying to solve and I couldn't be more proud of Russell. This is actually all about him and less about me,   but I'm happy and proud of my company in aiding towards his effort. I think it's a big deal for not only athletes, but for the everyday individual that's looking to protect themselves from asset inflation and the Federal Reserve's absolute must in printing cash.  



[00:02:04] Unknown:

Jack,   Yo, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for episode 3 of Citadel Dispatch.   Very excited for this one.   We have our good friends, Durjiji and Croesusbtc   with us.   We will be discussing the main topics we'll be discussing today is Shitcoin Regrets and Pricing the World in Sats,   but we won't stop there. As you guys know,   no topics are off limits here. So, we're looking forward to you guys in the audience,   helping propel this conversation forward and seeing where it takes us. How's it going, guys?  

[00:03:14] Unknown:

Hey. Happy to be here.  

[00:03:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Going well. I'm stoked after watching Jack there.  

[00:03:22] Unknown:

Should get you hyped. Right? Yeah.  

[00:03:24] Unknown:

He wasn't pulling any punches. That's great.  

[00:03:28] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's it's hard not to be hyped right now because just it seems like everything is happening at once. You know, like, all the all the things that Bitcoin has have been writing about for a couple of years are,   all happening at the same time, and that's just how it seems to be happening.   You know, as they say, grad gradually than suddenly. And we see, you know, like,   players getting their salary in sets pretty much,   in a roundabout way be it. But still, we see speculative attacks. We see, you know, streaming sets. We see all all kinds of beautiful   things.  



[00:04:00] Unknown:

So one of the ways I like to start the show is is asking,   everyone what they're having to drink today.   I expect everyone in the audience to let us know via text.  

[00:04:10] Unknown:

Gigi, are you enjoying anything with us today? Oh, yeah. I as I told you, I had, like, a time zone.   Yeah. I I messed up my time zone. Let's put it like that. And I I started 2 hours early, actually, and I popped open,   a Taliska storm for you, Matt. So that's what I'm drinking.  

[00:04:31] Unknown:

Okay. Glasses. I like that.  

[00:04:33] Unknown:

Nice.   That's a good plop.  

[00:04:37] Unknown:

Talents are solid. I'm actually drinking,   mezcal today.   I have no idea how to pronounce it. Del Megui.   Definitely just butchered it. That's perfect.   But,   mezcal is fantastic.   I think it's like,   it you know, I I think it's got a very Scotch like taste to me.  

[00:04:58] Unknown:

I'm 2 hours ahead, so,   excuse me if I'm a little bit more buzzy than usual. So   I'll try my best to stay sober for as long as I can.  

[00:05:09] Unknown:

Let her rip, Gigi. Let's hear what you wrote then.  

[00:05:12] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, it's it's time for a little bit of celebration. It's just,   every day   every day, every one of us wakes up no no matter where you are in the world, It's like,   you know, Bitcoin is waking up with a large green boner in in in her pants.   And it's just   it's just wild to see. It's a wild ride.  

[00:05:34] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah.  

[00:05:37] Unknown:

I'm drinking mozzallo over here. So,   there's just what was left in the fridge. I guess I finished my IPA,   but my 6 pack of vlogging is yesterday. So   is on the menu.  

[00:05:49] Unknown:

There you go. Well, cheers to all the freaks out there.   You know, I'm I'm,   I'm I'm very excited as usual to to get going here on Citadel Dispatch.   I I guess, you know, the best place to start seems, you know, seems to be this Russell Okung news.   We have,   the 1st NFL player that's that's being so called paid in stats, and I was wondering what your guys' take is here on  

[00:06:16] Unknown:

this. Yeah. I think it was just a matter of time until something like that,   it was going to happen. And, of course, it it made a big splash and, it's a very strong   PR move.   But I think, you know, the way I like to think about that is that there are some people that have been living on a Bitcoin standard for quite some time that have been, you know,   auditing,   half their income, not if they still earn fiat, they're even people that are have been earning stocks for quite a while. And I just see the circle of people living on a Bitcoin standard expanding. And with Michael Saylor, for example, we saw,   you know, a company   moving into   a similar direction. And, of course, there are smaller companies that,   operate on sets as well. And so yeah. I think that's that's that's one way to think about it. That's just more and more people are,   jumping on the train of the Bitcoin standard, and the Bitcoin standard is priced in sets. And so your salary or part of it is gonna be priced in sets, and you just love to see it.  



[00:07:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I think about   I feel like the the last year has been the year of, like, 0 to 1 firsts   for Bitcoin in in several ways. Like, we had Paul Tudor Jones   being, like, the first big name investor   coming out and saying, actually,   Bitcoin is legit,   and going to be the fastest horse. Then we had MicroStrategy,   being the 1st corporate treasury, 1st public company, corporate treasury to say   we're are going to choose Bitcoin over dollars,   and that set a precedent   just like Paul Tudor Jones set a precedent.   And we've we've been   witnessing those precedents   turn into a triple,   of more people following   suit and, you know, the the institutional buying over the last 3 months has   been, you know, a direct follow on from those precedents.  

And then now with Russell, we are seeing   a first   with, a totally different type of adoption than   than, you know, anything else we've we've seen before. It's like big name, high salary individuals   demanding to be be paid in Bitcoin.   And now the infrastructure   of Stripe making that possible has this multiplicative   effect of, like, the possibilities of Bitcoin adoption are so much greater now than they were 4 years ago.   And   and now these new precedents are possible and we'll see what what sort of,   followers,   follow suit from Russell's News.  



[00:08:55] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think,   you know, as as Gigi said, a lot of us a lot of us have been   basically doing what Russ is doing now,   including Russ himself, presumably,   you know, taking your fiat paycheck and basically using it to to dollar cost average into Bitcoin, to stack into Bitcoin as much as possible.   But   this is more of a it feels more of like a signaling mechanism to me. It feels like something that really,   flips a switch in people's heads, you know, that that you're getting paid in better money. You're not getting paid like, no one gets paid in Apple stock or something. It takes it away from being like an investment. It it makes it more tangible. And and and, really, if you're not pricing   everything in your life and sats already,   you're short Bitcoin.  

But,   it it's good to see, you know, one step towards that to that ultimate goal. Right? Because I I think I think the the ultimate   direction that Bitcoiners end up at is that they realize that everything is priced in Sats, your take home pay is priced in Sats like you said, this is best basically, your worth on a yearly basis, and that goes down year over year over year forever.  

[00:10:09] Unknown:

Yeah. And this realization leads you to,   making several investments, for example, in a haircutting machine and you start to cut your own hair because every time you you go to a hairdresser, it's just millions and millions of sets.   So,   yeah. I think this this calculation that the con is still doing,   more and more people are waking up to that. And,   yeah, as as,   Vic Contina also likes to say, you know, he he he's he's been saying it since forever that,   what we're witnessing is the whole world being repriced in sets. And and,   yeah, I,   you can think of it as the great reset, so to speak. And it's it's it's just beautiful to to see Did that work yesterday or 2 days ago?  

That this is actually happening, you know, and it's it's happening as you say. Like, the the Bitcoin hive mind is more and more expanding. And at first, it was, like,   2, 3 crazy people on Bitcoin Twitter that that were just, like, you know, sell your chairs and cut your own hair and so on and so forth. And I I I think   that the circle of of people that understand it will just expand and expand. And it it's in part because of just the general macro situation and people just realizing that MoneyPrint TO GO BR won't stop anytime soon. And on the other hand, I think it's also because there's just so much information,   pure Bitcoin only information out there. You can really educate yourself quite quickly as compared to, let's say, like, 2015.  

And it's it's really distilled, and it's also distilled in memes. And it's just   it's just   iteration upon iteration upon iteration. And   in the end, you know, I think what most people will have a problem with is that it almost sounds too easy. You know? Like, just stack sets stack sets until hyperbitcoinization  

[00:11:56] Unknown:

is complete. Sounds like a fucking scam. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like a degenerational   wealth.  

[00:12:01] Unknown:

It's impossible. It's it's too good to be true. And I think that's a big reason that precoiners,   especially, you know, my yuppie people,   are not there yet. It's just too good to be true, but that's what we're that's what's happening. That's what we're watching play out in front of us.  

[00:12:21] Unknown:

So I, you know, I'm   learning as as a host here. This is my   3rd episode of Citadel Dispatch, and I I kind of   fucked up the order.   I guess, like, I'm supposed to in the beginning of the show,   introduce you guys and have you guys, like, explain to the audience,   who the fuck you are.   So   I guess I guess let's start with Gigi. Gigi,   I've known you for a while now. You're I consider you a good friend.   What's the deal with you and Bitcoin?  

[00:12:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know.   Man, where to start even.   I'm I'm a super slow learner.   I think that's   that's what I learned from Bitcoin. So   in one way or another, I I've been in touch with Bitcoin for quite a while, but it took me so long to really dive in and understand it. And I think my biggest problem was,   that I come from a tech background, and I studied computer science, and I just didn't   I just didn't see the money in it. I only saw the tech, and so I got lured into,   all kinds of shit kinds, like every shit kind under the sun.   And I just didn't understand what it's all about and this that this is actually a monetary   revolution. And, once I understood that, I kind of wanted to tell other people about it because I thought it's kind of important, and that led me to writing a bunch of articles. And those articles actually turned into a book called 21 Lessons. And I think that's what most people know me for. So I'm the author of 21 Lessons, and you can read the book online for free and also listen to the audiobook online for free on 21 lessons com.  



[00:13:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, 21 lessons is fucking fantastic, so everyone should go check that out.  

[00:14:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Of course, the story got good news.   But I I'm not sure if I want to just harp on and harp on. So I'm I'm now I'm now in Bitcoin full time. I did I did, a bunch of other things in the Bitcoin space. I started Bitcoin Resources. I wrote a bunch of other articles. I'm working on the second book. I'm now part of the Swan Bitcoin team, and I'm doing engineering there and also What's the deal with that? What are you doing? Yeah.   Yeah. So I'm I'm working,   full stack pretty much.   Yeah. It's it's not too long ago that I joined, so I'm I'm still kind of feeling like the new guy,   but it's it's getting better every day. And, yeah, I have the privilege to work in Bitcoin full time, and I love every minute of it. And I'm very grateful, to be part of this one because I think auto DCA is the best thing you can do for yourself and also for for, like, a peaceful and less critical transition towards a global Bitcoin standard.  

And,   Yeah. Corin and Jan,   started   Swan Bitcoin   not too long ago. I think I I guess it went live in March   last year, so   not even a year old. And,   yeah, I I just reached out and was like, if you're just looking for,   coders that know that know their way around   code bases and tech and stuff, I'm willing to help. And so, yeah, they they were happy to   to have me on board. And ever since yeah. I'm I'm   I'm I'm chilling in the pond with the guys.   And the Swan team is going strong. And we're trying our best to educate people and also   provide easy and low fee services to,   yeah, to basically auto DCA and buy Bitcoin.  



[00:15:43] Unknown:

Okay. We appreciate the shield, Gigi.   Crow, what's the deal with you?  

[00:15:48] Unknown:

Yeah. So I guess similar to Gigi, I,   first came at all this from like a technology investment   lens   and   heard about it from like more technical classmates.   Business school actually got me interested in Ethereum,   back then.   And so I   took the   someone recently described it as,   the   the the most painful path to Bitcoin,   AKA going through alt coins first.   I was interested in Ethereum and then that led to a whole bunch of other alt coins   in in the last,   major cycle,   2016, 17. That was what I was doing. Rode that up and then rode it all the way down in 2018,   and was frustrated as all hell about, like, why were my   wonderful technology altcoins underperforming   and was forced to finally   pay attention to these lunatic Bitcoin maximalists who had been ranting and raving about   about, you know, everything,   to anyone who would listen,   and also telling everybody to, you know, who was in altcoins to   to,   go curl up and die or kind of sentiment.  

And so finally got around to reading the Bitcoin standard and realized that   that actually this rabbit hole goes way deeper, way way deeper.   In fact,   undoes all of the MBA   education and,   management consulting   knowledge that I received in my career   and had to   get deep enough to to understand that my my understanding of economics and how,   central banking works and how money works was completely wrong.   And, that Bitcoin is on an inevitable path to   to overtake those institutions   and replace them as a base layer layer of our civilization.   So that's sort of been my arc,   to get to Bitcoin   but it started by, you know, being a greedy technology investor trying to make a buck   off of, you know,   these these new forms of digital   money   and and payment rails that I thought Ethereum,   was going to be.  



[00:18:19] Unknown:

Well, thank you for that confession.   We appreciate it.   I,   I kinda love that I just put the price ticker at the start of this episode and it's just been it's just been pumping. So,   you're not really a freak if you're not trying to,   you know, stack to increase that the price over 35 k while we're live on air here.  

[00:18:40] Unknown:

I I love the guy fartface 2 2,002. He's like, can we slow down the price ticker? You know, it's just that's popping popping way too hard.  

[00:18:52] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, I I think that's a good entry point here.   I wanna talk about shitcoin regrets.   I don't know.   And then, yeah, and then we'll go back to pricing the world in sats maybe, and then we'll continue from there. Maybe that'll be the plan, unless someone in in the audience hits us with some,   you know, really bold question or something, and then we'll just go on some really long tangent. Or if the price just pumps,   then we might just lose focus and just I'll just pull up a chart and we can stare at it together.   So Normal. Shitcoin regrets.  

I I think most people come in   through the Shitcoin side. It it maybe recently it's different,   because we have this, you know, expansive, like, Bitcoin only network almost that has that been has been nurtured on Bitcoin, Twitter,   and adjacent platforms, and and we have all these podcasts now, and we have stuff like 21 lessons.   We have we have businesses that have basically sprung up like Swan,   and Cash App that are trying to basically leverage that Bitcoin only concept,   as as, you know, as almost a brand building and marketing exercise that that didn't exist last cycle.   But previous to that, a lot of people came in, through shared coins, and then they presumably got burned. They touched the fire like a like a little child,   and then that's when they learned their lesson. Right?  

So   I I I think it'd be helpful to people coming in now because they come in now, and their first question, no matter what, everyone's first question is almost always, well, what about this one? Is maybe I missed the boat. Am I too late to buy Bitcoin?  

[00:20:33] Unknown:

That's awesome. That's a good way to tee this up.   Yeah.   I think like the the refrain that   Bitcoiners need to focus on and that, that exists for us now. And I think is extremely powerful   is that,   you know,   absolute scarcity is a one time invention   and that's Bitcoin and any,   any copy   of a, of a system of digital scarcity   is by definition, not scarce   because   you can what's the marginal cost of creating an additional copy after that? Nothing. So there's there's no   scarcity in any copies of the   first and only instance of digital scarcity that mattered,   Bitcoin.  

And and that kind of like philosophical framing of it   didn't exist   a few years ago. In fact, the thing the article that   really put me over the edge on, like,   no altcoin matters at all whatsoever forever,   was Breedlove's   the number 0 in Bitcoin, which was only released like a year ago.   And so, yeah, that it's it's amazing to me that Bitcoin's been around like 12 years now and   we only just figured out the the way to articulate what makes it so special, but now we have it and now we can focus on that and   and nip that question in the bud when   new coiners are trying to find something that can,   you know, something new that they can outpace Bitcoin with.  



[00:22:09] Unknown:

Yeah. And to be fair, like, it's very difficult to understand.   So to anyone listening to this who still   believes that,   you know, something else will overtake Bitcoin or,   it's it might be worth to diversify   in the quote unquote cryptocurrency space or something.   It it takes   a long time and a lot of deep thinking and a lot of studying also of, monetary history and stuff like that to really understand it and also to understand the fundamentals   why this is true. And   the   the I think that's also the reason why Bitcoin has just just came up with,   shorthand solutions and also   basically   telling people to just have fun staying poor if they are not willing to learn and listen themselves. And that's I I I love how this is, by the way, like, it's it's a distillation of the original Stoshi quote. You know, like, if if you don't get it or,   don't want to believe me, then I don't have the time to explain it to you. So the   I I forget the exact quote, but that's that's basically what what he said. And and so that's basically what Bitcoiners are saying now as well. But   I I also think that it's important   that to point out that this actually can be understood. So I was at a place not too long ago where I didn't understand it at all. And I think I understand it now quite well. Why why it is the case that   Bitcoin is a a 0 to 1 one invention and the   it it is also path dependent invention. Like, it it can be done again. And,   as Krishna said, it's like digital scarcity   only happens once. And Bitcoin   put the cherry on top by   choosing the   the terminal   the terminal inflation rate of 0%. So we we not only have digital scarcity, we have   absolute scarcity, like perfect digital scarcity. We never had that before and and and we will never have that again because you can you can think about it in a way that   the problem that Bitcoin solved, like the problem that Satoshi solved is a very, very peculiar one. Because   you cannot solve   the like, you cannot invent a form of information that cannot be copied. You can always copy information, and you can always copy it perfectly because you always have error correction.  

If you can read something, like, if you can read a certain kind of information, you can always copy it. That's just the way information works. And this will always be true, and this is also true in Bitcoin. Like every single part in Bitcoin can be copied. The the ledger is copied all the time. The blocks are copied. Your private key can be copied. You can have, like, 10 different backups in 10 different locations of your private key. Like, nothing is unique in Bitcoin in in the sense of you it cannot be copied, so to speak. The only thing that can't be copied in Bitcoin is an NGU technology. That's what can't be copied. And it's it's really difficult to understand that because what Bitcoin does is it it it builds a protocol, it builds a network that makes invalid copies useless.   So it only takes care of valid copies   and   it it does it in a way that you produce this ledger and this ledger the entries in the ledger are what what are absolutely scarce. And so creating a second ledger that has the same properties is completely senseless because why would you have 2 letters? Like, why why would you it it it it doesn't make sense. And it's it's also you know, you have all the network effects and everything else. It's like talking a different language and and so on and so forth. And I think what's what's important to understand for for newcomers is for other inventions,   it's it's not that it's not that all inventions   tend towards 1. It's also not that all   networks,   tend to trend towards 1. But value does, you know. You can't it doesn't make sense or you it just can't park value in different things. You always have to diversify. You cannot. If if you have a regular file, you can burn it on a CD. If you kids still know what it is, you can put it on a USB stick and you can upload it to some online service and you can upload it to another online service and you can store it on your hard drive and you can print it out and so on and so forth.  

But with value, that's not true. You have to decide. You you you either buy a house or you buy stock or you invested in whiskey or something. And and so so money is way, way stronger in that regard than   almost all other things. And money is also a language and and and, yeah, like a communication layer and so on. And   so the the effects that are behind Bitcoin are insanely strong.   And   I I I would I would also point out that   all all the best word the the the buzz words in Bitcoin are so horrible, like how it's cryptocurrency,   even though it doesn't even use encryption in the 1st place. You know, it's just digital sign signatures and and hashes. So nothing is encrypted in Bitcoin ever.  

So   it it uses cryptography. Yeah. That's right. But a lot of people talk about, you know, like encrypted money and stuff like that, but that's just not the case. And   the the basic problem   that Bitcoin solves is timing.   And, and I think a lot of people just don't know that and don't don't realize that. And   so so they just get hung up in all kinds of shit coinery in terms of looking into   supply chain stuff and Internet of things stuff and so on and so forth. And they all miss that   you cannot connect   the digital world with the physical world. And this is act   exactly what Bitcoin solved. So   Bitcoin solved the Oracle problem and nothing and,   like,   everyone who's working in cryptocurrency, quote unquote, doesn't understand it. Yep. Yep.  



[00:27:35] Unknown:

Super important distinction there that   that the the real world cannot be connected.   So any cryptocurrency project   trying to   to bring the blockchain to   supply chain, it it doesn't make any sense ultimately.   And and Gigi, I think that gets back to   like like the the root,   problem that that I fell into and I think a lot of NewCoiners fall into   the flawed thinking   is that we apply the   the framework of   you know, new technology investment   that has been   the   it's the established wisdom after a half century of of of tech growth in,   you know, in the world and in Silicon Valley with hardware and then eventually   software and the Internet,   diversifying and, you know, betting on different projects and teams and all that. That's the winning formula.  

And, and that that's been true in all tech investing   until now.   And I think that   in new corners   are likely to bring in that,   that style of thinking that   idea about how to win when investing in a in a new technology.   That's certainly what I did.   And   I guess it's it's it's our   opportunity. It's our responsibility   to try to,   you know, point them in the right direction as soon as possible.   And, you know,   in in in part these these means   of knowledge that   the corners have started to focus in on,   you know, absolute scarcity is the only thing that matters and,   and all of the other valuable Bitcoin means,   you know, infinity divided by 21,000,000   and and all that, that's true and and it's for different reasons than   than anything that was true with the Internet or with hardware or software before that.  

And   I think that's the the trap that newcomers fall into, but it's it's where we need to focus to try to steer them away from.  

[00:29:51] Unknown:

First of all, good points all around. I especially liked Gigi completely ignoring the freaks trying to have fun staying poor him,   while he was while he was talking.   Freaks, I was disappointed in you. I I thought you had him there.   I think,   you know, there's a couple things to unpack here. I think one of the big things,   which Gigi mentioned is that proof of work, I think, is, like, the real innovation here, and people   distributed proof of work. Verifiable proof of work is the real innovation here, and so many people miss that element.   I think, ultimately, at   the end of the day,   people should realize that pretty I think every asset on on earth will trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin, not just Altcoins.  

And   and and so so yes. Like,   before you make any kind of investment in general, like, you should, you know, do your own research and figure things out. But I think for a lot of people, they won't have to get past that aspect.   They don't know how our current money system works.   If they hear that and they see over the next 5 years it continue to happen because it keeps happening,   then they they'll figure it out eventually.   And   last but not least, I think, you know, there's a lot of talk about memeness, meme that, you know, and then kind of tails back into,   pricing things in Sats. How do we meme, you know, Sats the standard into being the standard?  

And I think, you know, a good meme is based in reality to begin with. It's not like memes created this reality.   Memes   simply   captured the reality before it was apparent to the mainstream, before it was apparent to everyone else.   Sats were already the standard. You know? The SATs were already the ultimate unit of measurement for the for the whole world. It's just people hadn't realized it yet.  

[00:31:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. And as you rightly point out, sets   are actually the standard in Bitcoin. Like, the only sets exist in Bitcoin. Bitcoins don't really exist. Like, they only exist by convention.   Only sets exist in in the protocol, you know, like,   at the at the base level, so to speak. And I think I think,   you know,   memes   are in a way distilled truth.   And   if the distilled truth is somewhat offensive or funny or sticky, then all the better. And I also think that good good memes are always organic. Like, you the the forced meme doesn't exist. It's just   it just doesn't work. It it doesn't seem to work that way. And,   I I think memes are, in that sense,   also   shortcuts.  

And   I I think more and more people   are taking these kind of shortcuts because most people just operate on   following people that they trust. And now we have just some big names switching over to Bitcoin and and saying, like, Bitcoin is here to say and Bitcoin is actually, you know, like, it's it's   it's not only for criminals and it's not just tulips and it's,   and so on and so forth. Like, we have actually   outspoken critics that have changed their mind and and just all kinds of smart people telling you that Bitcoin is the future. And I think that's how more and more people   will find a way into Bitcoin as well because,   they will continue to ask themselves that,   all the smart and respected people, can they be wrong at the same time? Maybe. But maybe there's also something there that you take a second look. And   to to everyone who's listening to this and I mean, I guess all the all the people that are listening, they they   are in the cult anyway. But   just let me tell you, listening to maximalists   is like the ultimate shortcuts   in cheat codes and and understanding and everything else. Like, it's just like we said before, it's it's it it sounds stupid and it sounds too easy, but just, you know,   just stack. And if you think you're doing the like, just listen to fucking American model for for that.  

Just if you're if if you're if you have second thoughts, just sec stack harder. And I I think I truly think, like, the best thing you can do is,   educate yourself, try to be productive, try to produce something that other people will actually pay you money for in in in whatever form. So in the end, you can earn sets and just set up Auto DCA until hyperbitcoinization is complete. And that won't be a very long time, I think. You know, like, I I I I've repeated that over and over again. I think we may have seen happening right now. Right? I it's happening before our eyes, but I think It has Somewhere in in 2029,   we will have an event that's that approximates, like, clear hyperbitcoinization   in terms of, you know, like, field currencies failing, stuff like that. Circular economy is forming so large that most most online people are just on the Bitcoin standard and stuff like that. It's it's very hard to define, you know, like it's very hard to define the point of hyperbitcoinization since it's kind of a process. It's like it's like asking when when did the Internet win? When did the Internet take over? It obviously took over, but there's still some people that aren't online, you know. Like, when did the fax machine die? I can't really tell you. There are still people that are using fax machines. Yeah. Craig For sake, I don't know why. Craig  

[00:34:48] Unknown:

gets his Bitcoin price ticker,   through through the fax.   You know, Gigi, when I asked you to introduce yourself, you gave, like, this really long winded,   in   introduction. But I I think ultimately, like, if I was gonna sum up,   I think your most your most powerful aspect in this space is you're almost like a meme historian,   like a Bitcoin meme historian.   And I wanna I was like, I think this is, like, an interesting topic to bring up with you here live.   I kind of   embrace Have Fun Staying Poor   innately within myself,   not as like a I think it's an hilarious,   dig at someone who's, you know, a Bitcoin denier and attacking us. But I think ultimately, have fun staying poor is, like,   that's the stay humble, stack stats lifestyle. That's that's, you know, that that's like the   the the Bitcoin or, low time preference lifestyle. Right? Where you have to if you can have fun staying poor, then you can stack as many stats as possible, then you've found the cheat code. If you put this Oh, man. Active activity, you're like, you're having fun staying poor by stacking fast?  



[00:35:51] Unknown:

Yeah. You know you know how the great reset people, they're like, you will own nothing and you will be happy. And I think, you know, if you're doing if you're doing it right in the Bitcoin space,   then you will own nothing but Bitcoin and you will be happy. You know. Like, it's the best thing, you know. Like, rent everything else and just buy Bitcoin. You can rent everything else. Don't rent your Bitcoin people. It's just   rent an apartment,   sell you sell you chairs, sell your cars. Cars are basically chairs on wheels, you know. So yeah. I think I think you're you're you're hitting the nail on the head there. That's,   and and there's a profound truth behind it, you know. Like, Bitcoin is the only thing you can truly own because in Bitcoin,   it's not only that it's it's it's not even that possession is is   the rule of law. Like, you know, like they say that possession is like 9 tenths of the law and and if you if you own something, that's that's how you make sure it's yours. In Bitcoin, it's even, like, worse in kind of way. It it knowledge   is owning something. If if if you have knowledge of a certain kind of information,   you you you own it. And it's it's very difficult to wrap your head around it because can you really say that you own it,   that you own knowledge? You know, like, if if you if let's say you you have a private key and you you transform it into 12 words. You have a you you have a seed phrase that's 12 words long. It's it's quite easy to remember 12 words. So So the Bitcoin are now in your head because that's basically   for all intents and purposes, these are your Bitcoin because, you know, like, Bitcoin don't really exist, but you have those 12 words.  

And you can you can share that with your family, for example, you know. Like, if you're really tight knit, I won't recommend it, but just as a as a thought experiment. So now you know these 12 words and your wife knows these 12 words and maybe your 2 kids know these 12 words. Who owns the Bitcoin? Like everyone does. It's it's it's   the the the whole concept of of   property somewhat and and owning something breaks down in in Bitcoin if you think about it in that way. Because yeah. Owning is knowing and knowing is owning. And and that's I think I think that's what makes Bitcoin so fascinating because our laws just can't handle it. You you you will have to you will have to do some   weird gen mental gymnastics to make our existing   code of law work with that with that kind of system. And so yeah. I I I think it's it's just all kinds of   exciting, and   it's it's it's really possible in Bitcoin to have fun and not stay poor because   you can you can do what you want and have your your wealth intact.  



[00:38:15] Unknown:

I mean,   when the Bitcoin price runs up, I just,   like, we we have no choice. We're gonna you either have to have fun staying poor   or   or or we're just not gonna have fun because we're definitely gonna stay poor regardless.   Like,   they'll know you'll never have enough sats. Like, it's impossible.   You just have to try your best just to have fun staying poor.  

[00:38:40] Unknown:

Yeah. I I made I made my piece,   I made my piece with that, quite a long while ago, I think. And and maybe maybe that that can loop back also to to, like, the the shitcoin topic because I I got pulled into the shitcoin so hard. Like, I was literally reading every white paper under the sun and try try to understand it all.   And and yeah. No. No. I like, you guys have no idea how much I was into it. And,   so   I I just made peace with that that I would have if if I listened to my own advice that I'm giving now, and I would have listened to the maximalist and just,   yeah, went all in and and just   have been stacking like crazy, I would have way more sets than I do now. But, you know, in the end, nobody really   has any sets because we all like voting anyway. And   that's just the way it goes, you know, Bitcoiners lose the stats from time to time. And so I think, you know, be happy be happy be happy that you're here, be happy that you're dead early, and be happy that you can stack now, and be happy with the good sets that you stack. And don't don't be too hard on yourself even if you, you know, like, a lot of people have shot themselves in the foot and, burn keys and whatnot or just messed up in some other way. And so yeah. Just   as mental health advice, don't don't be too hard on yourself.  

And I'm I'm sorry, Chris. I I just, I I didn't let you speak before, but   in my defense, I'm kind I'm kinda drunk and stuff. That's all good, dude. No worries.  

[00:40:12] Unknown:

Yeah. And you're you're spitting fire too, so it's it's all good.   But, yeah, there was a thought that I wanted to to toss in there when when,   Matt brought up a meme historian.   I feel like I've I've had like a recent   growth and appreciation   for   me.   It's sort of a joke but, like, memes really are how how we win   and not not the not that, like,   we come up with cooler graphics or anything like that, but like the distillation   of   the knowledge that takes a long time to learn into something that's easier to learn over time   is how we   how we broadcast   and onboard   the message   to everybody,   to the mainstream, to people who who aren't   in the habit of being really curious about new technology and and actively learning about it.  

They're only gonna listen when when the meme is so simple and they're seeing   other people around them   benefit from taking the advice of that meme. So   recently, I I wrote an article, trying to compare,   Bitcoin adoption   to what it looked like on the, the frontier of the American West, how the   American West was,   was developed,   over the last few 100 years.   And in the process of that, I I think, you know, there's there's sort of two main means   of   advice   for people in the 1800 about   how to make the most of this new frontier and the opportunity   there.  

One was go west young man, which is sort of the encapsulation of of everything. Right? Like there's opportunity in the west   and that's where you should go if you wanna make a better life.   And that I didn't notice, but that only   was   was coined as a phrase   in the 18 sixties.   So   that it took decades before   the   the wisdom, the knowledge   was synthesized into something as simple as that. This this meme   go west, Joe Man,   took decades. And because of the Internet, we have and because of Twitter,   we have the advantage of so much more   rapid,   idea exchange and iteration   that,   Bitcoin Twitter can   accelerate that synthesis of of the value of adopting Bitcoin as your unit of account.  

And we're not done yet. And,   you know, as those memes improve, we'll reach more and more people who in turn will propagate   that knowledge to more and more people in their world.   And that's how we win.  

[00:43:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.   I I I also think that memes kind of, in a weird way, are the language of the Internet   because they are just so insanely condensed. You know? Like, image macros existed for a long time, and not too long ago, image macros were the only thing that were was known as memes. Now everything is kind of a meme, like, in short videos and stuff like that. That   yeah. The the the memes are real. They they always have been. And   so,   I I actually, I,   I think I heard Wittstein talk about that how how memes are   basically   just supercharged,   rathoric devices and how how it's just rathoric,   on steroids.  

And I think that's that's really true. But for for a good meme to to stick and to spread, it also has, as Matt said before, it has to be true. You know? Like, there there has to be there has to be not only a kernel of truth. It it has to hit you in the head how how true it is. Like, that's money print of, you know? That's what the shit corners don't fucking realize. Right? It's like you have these ETH heads on on Twitter,  

[00:44:04] Unknown:

and and they're like, about Bitcoin's a meme coin, and they're trying to force their own memes, you know, like, Defy and, like, money Legos and shit. But, like, the the the whole,   like, 21,000,000,   this idea of a supply cap   exists because it's so   hard to change it. It's it's it's both socially difficult to change it, and   as a technology, it's been prioritized to allow people to to self   verify and use their own nodes,   and it gives people the, basically, the ability to veto any kind of radical changes, right, and and verify it themselves.   It's not because people's, you know, keep saying 21,000,000 over and over again. That is the that is culmination. This is the the it is the meme the meme is the explanation of something that already exists. You can't   the meme doesn't create the reality. It is the reality.  



[00:44:55] Unknown:

Yep. It just communicates better.  

[00:44:59] Unknown:

And I guess the  

[00:45:00] Unknown:

the core idea, like,   I think it's funny how the Internet has forgotten where the idea of meme,   comes from. And there's a word that was invented or applied by,   Richard Dawkins, I think in   one of his books, I think it might have been The Selfish Gene   To put a label on on this idea that that genes   are information   that are and and and they propagate themselves   and they want to be propagated.   And and so the mean is that unit of that base unit of information   that the gene carries   and and so yeah when we think about internet means with that lens of   the base unit of information that can be propagated,   you know, that's that's what we're that's what we're trying to get towards.  



[00:45:52] Unknown:

Yeah. And to to dig even even deeper into that, I think I think it just goes way, way deeper. And I I think there's a deeper reason why it works so well in Bitcoin in particular.   And I I also think this is the reason for so many also, you know, like,   cult and religious parallels in Bitcoin that,   you you you rightly pointed out that this was,   coined by Dawkins who,   obviously   took inspiration from genes and how living organisms like, how how the   how how genes spread, but not only genes are spreading, but also in humans, certain ideas are spreading and are mutating and   are useful or not useful. And if they are not useful, then also the meme won't survive. And he was talking in the context of, religions and and other things and other ideas. And I I really like also the the framework that Harari put into place. It was the first time at least when I saw that, he was like that money is a meme as well. Like, he he was saying that money is a religion pretty much. But but those are all, like, informational   constructs that,   people use to coordinate and to agree on reality and stuff like that. And so so Bitcoin is the ultimate meme, you know. Like, Bitcoin is pure information. It's just information. And it's   it it it it is self replicating information as well. Like, it it is the absolute ultimate meme machine, and that's just how it operates. That's how it works. Bitcoin   is the de facto meme machine.  

I think that's why it also lends itself so well,   for for memes. And, I mean, there there are deeper reasons to that as well. I I think, you know, in a in a way that the the mined virus also replicates. And,   as we talked before, you you can't really take possession of your Bitcoin, but Bitcoin can definitely take possession of you. And so in a way, you know, like, we are we're Bitcoin lives in us and we're the hosts that's that spread it, and we spread it through through the most effective   means, which are memes and so on and so forth. So I I think I think anyone who's kind of interested in that that should should should check out,   these books and and make up,   his own mind.  

What what's what's it all about   in meme and geneland?  

[00:48:00] Unknown:

So discussing memes and and things being priced in sats, I mean,   do like, should the children of the world be be upset with with with their parents and their grandparents if they were gifted dollars that are just keep collapsing since Christmas? Like, should should there be a should there be a children uprising here?  

[00:48:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. Like, if you're getting cockpucks for for for for Christmas, what what's what's going on with that?  

[00:48:23] Unknown:

Yeah. The it there's this   ethical moral dilemma of like once you have learned   about bitcoin,   is it ethical   to to not propagate that   that, knowledge to your children or to your friends and family?   It's it's everybody's responsibility to do that once they've learned. So   the the the fact that,   children are being given   dollars for Christmas and watching those dollars   melt in value   is is not the fault of their parents   who don't   know, but it it is wrong of the parents who do know. So   it's interesting how that,   it's arrow of, of Bitcoin adoption goes in one direction.  

[00:49:12] Unknown:

I mean, I I assume I assume most Bitcoiners,   are   incessantly annoying to their children and are giving them SATs, have been giving them SATs for Christmas   for a while now. And, I I have a feeling their children's,   views on it during bear markets were were were less agreeable than they are now.  

[00:49:32] Unknown:

For sure. Yeah. I guess, those are our ultimate short time preference,   individuals, because they've only lived so long and they can only think so far out.  

[00:49:42] Unknown:

But luckily, we have good tools now,   in in terms of   indoctrinating your children.   Like, you you know, we have, chamarine   and   children children's books and all all kinds of things,   that that are actually   fun also during bear markets. But I I like what Chris has said before that,   stacking sets is like a a one way street. I I I really like,   to think that. And I think that's that's also a meme that people need to wrap their head around, and that's very difficult for most people in in my experience to understand that,   this is the end game, you know, like,   switching switching your   viewpoint   from   pricing in dollars to pricing in sets, that's so insanely difficult because most people that have have been caught up in the, quote, unquote, cryptocurrency   craze of, 2017,   they were like, how can I maximize my dollar gains? They were never like, how how can I maximize my gains in in sets? And once you once you start to switch,   things   are getting really different. And   I I think understanding that stacking sets is a one way street is is kind of   the end goal of a long journey. And I'm I'm afraid, like, I'm I'm I'm not we've been talking about memes and shortcuts and all kinds of things,   and I'm afraid that there isn't really a good shortcut. You know, it's it's it's kind of like   it's it's kind of like your grandparents,   spreading a lot of wisdom, but you don't really believe them. You have to live your life you have to make the mistake mistakes on your own, you know. Like, it's if you would have only listened to your grandparents, then you would have would probably be in the way out of place because they're actually   kinda smart and have good advice and know what they're doing. And they they they might not be the best in   in explaining it well, but it's I think it's because you're not receptive. You're not receptive to the ideas. And I think the same is true for, like, shit kindness and no kindness that they are not able to   hear the truth of the maximalists   because   they're not ready to receive these kind of ideas, and they're not not ready to   to,   see the truth for what it is. And they I think a lot of people just have to go through these natural cycles   and and just   experience it and learn it for themselves. Like, as as you say, Matt, all the time is, like, everyone has  

[00:52:00] Unknown:

to touch the stove at least once, you know. Like, that's that's usually how it goes. A lot more than once and for a lot more things than Bitcoin. I mean, pretty much every way I've learned about everything is just fucking myself,   and then and then learning from it, especially in Bitcoin. My my history of my of my Bitcoin learning is just burning myself over and over and over again and learning in the process.   We have a question here from a good friend of the podcast   and text based host, 6102   Bitcoin. Should newcomers go all in with savings than DCA with their income or just DCA from the start? When he says DCA, he means dollar cost averaging, colloquially known as stacking sats.  

[00:52:39] Unknown:

So I'm I'm facing I'm dealing with this question from   from my, like,   my MBA classmates and   all the colleagues right now who are all of a sudden interested at 30,000   and ignoring the 10,000 and before.   And, yeah, it's a it's   a   it's an impossible question, I guess, because it's up to everybody's   risk tolerance.   But not really risk tolerance it's up to their conviction.   You know, you can only put in as much as you feel comfortable with   and the maximum that you are comfortable with   is directly correlated to your level of knowledge.   So the more you learn,   the more   you are comfortable holding   a greater percentage of your total net worth in bitcoin.  

And   what's amazing to me is how   how the people that I've been talking to recently   view any small percentage of Bitcoin as a risk,   you know, and and as a Bitcoiner,   the risk to me is is so you're telling me you have a 100% of your net worth in in dollars or, you know, that financial system   or isn't isn't that risky? So,   in my mind, it's like, what percentage   of your network can   get comfortable with shifting into this   other asset class and then start DCA it DCA. And but it's just so hard to get them, you know, off 0 at all. But   take what you can get, I guess.  



[00:54:12] Unknown:

I mean,   I I think it's an interesting I idea. Right? Because I think for bit right, like, when we have doll extra dollars, we feel like that's too risky. It's almost too risky to not have Bitcoin.   I I I've been playing around with that framing on Twitter for instance in the other day. I mean, I sent out a tweet,   that was that was basically that framing was it's you know,   honestly, I just don't have the convictions to buy conviction to buy dollars with my stats, you know. It's just too risky for me.   But at the same time, you have the overwhelming majority of people who,   whether for,   good reason or not, they feel the opposite. Right? And there's gonna be, like, a turning point at some point,   where it's there's gonna be massive change because those people   are gonna come around onto the extreme side. Because I feel like once you start   stacking,   there's really no going back. From that point on, you're just increasing and increasing and increasing, and you just can't get enough.  

You know, one thing here that I think people miss is, like, yeah, like, if you look back   at at at any point in history, you know, the price was cheaper than it is today. It's easy to say when you're sitting at all time highs, like, oh, I should have went all in   at any point, literally any point before now,   and then continued stacking from there. But I think the cool part about   staying humble and stacking sets, and that staying humble part is key is because so many people have an issue with getting in the door. You know, they they come in, they start paying attention to stuff, and they're like, oh, I'm gonna wait for Hyperwave. I'm gonna wait till 25100 till it falls down a little bit. Or even now, like, people are like, I'm gonna wait till it falls under 30 and then I'm gonna go all in. The nice thing about stacking from the beginning   is that it's it's an easy decision for someone to make. It's an easy decision for someone to say, okay,   instead of wasting $10 or $15 on cigarettes per day, I'm gonna put that into Bitcoin, and if I lose it, I lose it. You know? So they can actually get in. So maybe really what it looks like,   in practice I mean, everyone's different is is you kinda come in on a on a on a small DCA   and then,   you know, like, a couple months into that, you get some massive FOMO and then you then you practically go all in and then you continue to stack from there. Like, that's probably the more realistic scenario.  



[00:56:31] Unknown:

So I I have I have a very strong opinion in regards to that question   because,   like, a lot of a lot of Bitcoiners have different approaches to that. But my advice   to especially to new people, but pretty much to everyone, but especially to, like, complete no coin on newbies,   to,   you know, like,   I don't know, my my sister or whatever,   is just start stacking sets today. Just start now. Just don't think about it. Just please trust me, believe me, just start now, set it up. Even if you have no idea what you're doing, just find a way to to to get your feet wet and just the best thing is to do start stacking. The best thing is to do like, I I send people to auto DCA services straight away.   Like and   it it's the best thing because   I think if you especially if you have a little bit of money. Let's say you you you're well off and you want to put in, like, 30 k or 50 k or something into Bitcoin.  

The   the ways you can fuck up   are like,   there's there are a million ways you can fuck up. So it's really easy to to to mess something up to completely,   like, completely get wrecked, like, to lose all your money, to, of of course, destroy your your privacy forever,   to shoot yourself in the foot, to, you know, like,   do just there there are a 1,000,000 ways   a million things you can do wrong and and then nobody can help you. So even if you're technically   proficient,   this this can happen because if you're smart and if you're   if you're, like, if you're a technical guy and if you're in IT or something, then you you might think it's a good idea to build your own, you know, like   scheme set up, whatever security set up, and you might split your seed and and then encrypt something   It like, if you can just start   start auto DCA   and   learn as you go. The if if you mess up, you haven't lost much. You know, as I said, just give up a bad habit,   like quit smoking and and put put the money you would usually spend for cigarettes, in into DCA. And and just learn as you go and upgrade as you as you need. Like, upgrade   upgrade your your setup, upgrade your security, upgrade your best practices,   then start to   get into running notes, for example, get a hardware wallet, stuff like that. And you you cannot you cannot learn everything at at once. And I also think you cannot do everything   right at once. Of course, you know, like, that's for   that's for individuals. That's for, like,   people that want to learn about Bitcoin, want to get some exposure and so on. The story is different if if you're a company and and you you just   do everything custodial and you're just like, you know, let's   allocate 20,000,000 to Bitcoin and   someone will take care of it. But, you know, like, that's that's not really Bitcoin. You're not you're actually not holding Bitcoin. And I I I think I think you can't go wrong with that approach. And as you go as you become more comfortable, you can think of hitting a goal earlier. And I think it's also important to understand that   FOMO is just horrible. Like, if you think now is the only time to get in, that's that's just just take a step back and   and take a deep breath. And if if you're not calm, then you're bound to make mistakes. That's just if if you're if you're just following in and you just you you have to get in now, you're bound to mess something up. And so my advice is is just start small, start start DCA ing, and   just, you know,   try try to also understand what you're going and take it take it step by step. And and and a second thing I want to point out is I saw a couple of people and,   I also   in some sense know a little bit from experience. If you go   too much all in, so to speak,   it's very easy to end up in a in a impossible situation. You know, like,   let's say, oh, yeah. New bull market isn't coming. I'm gonna go all in, and then I'm up 200%, and now I'm gonna quit my job and do whatever. And And then the market tanks, and you're down 90%, and you're forced to sell at the very bottom because you have to eat. That's not a good situation to be in. So just try to be smart about it. That's why the stay humble part is super important because none of us are gonna be humble. It's so like, when this thing goes crazy, when Bitcoin hits open water and just going fucking insane,  

[01:00:56] Unknown:

It is really fucking difficult to stay humble.   And when the price is collapsing   and, you know, you're you're in a bear cycle,   and everyone's saying Bitcoin's dead, it's really hard to stay humble and and be acquiring at that point. Right?   And and so so you you constantly just need to be introspective of yourself, I think, just in life in general, but especially in Bitcoin.  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

And I've said that before. Like, I think the best decision in my life was to get into Bitcoin, and that was not really a decision. It was kind of like Bitcoin ate me alive. But the second like, the best decision in my Bitcoin life   was just just don't think about it. Stop looking at price charts and everything and just do Auto DCA.   Like, it's it's pure Bitcoin, San. It's I can't recommend it enough. I just It's the best thing ever. Like, I never look at just stop looking at fucking charts. Stop looking at the price even. Like, my price indicator is is just memes, you know. Like, I talk about this. Let's talk about this for a second. Right? So auto DCA  

[01:01:51] Unknown:

auto stacking, you know, fuck DCA. DCA is what boomers do. We're we're we're auto stackers. Okay? Yeah.   Auto stacking   is is   if you if you're working a fiat job if you're working a fiat job and you're getting your fiat paycheck into your fiat bank account,   you can convert a portion of that into Bitcoin, into Sats on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.   And, this is basic this is what I've been doing this whole cycle because it just didn't really it didn't really exist as an option earlier. Yeah.   And it just completely takes you you you pick your percentage. Right? I guess this is, like, the way people should look at it. Right? Like, I guess, you subtract your take home versus your expenses, and then you have this cushion area.   Right? And you decide what percent of that you're gonna contribute. Right? And I I personally like daily,   but let's be honest. Like, if if it's a smaller amount, you're gonna pay a higher percentage in fees. So it kinda makes sense to do weekly, but daily just feels productive at as fuck. Like, it's amazing waking up in the morning and just being like, oh, I have more sets.  



[01:02:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.  

[01:02:56] Unknown:

And That brings in, like, a distinction that that that I think is worth making here of,   I think that's totally the approach for when you already have a good exposure to to Bitcoin.   But for somebody, like, with 0 exposure,   who has significant net worth,   I think there's a there's an upfront period where they need to be either stacking aggressively   or do some sort of lump sum to get off 0. But like, Matt, as you said before, it's totally true that it's so hard to here's Matt.   So hard to,   like,   to commit to that.  

[01:03:35] Unknown:

It's easier if it's, you know, just But that's the problem. Yeah. The problem is they don't have the balls to fucking do it, and they don't they haven't played around with Bitcoin yet, so they they they're not even in a comfortable position of of controlling their own keys and and holding their Bitcoin. And as far as I'm concerned, if you're not holding your own Bitcoin, you're not actually you haven't bought any Bitcoin yet.   Yeah. And I I think it's it's it's you need to be careful about buying a lump sum before you really understand the asset and have used it.   At the same time,   we are in   a historical   cycle where we've had these historical cycles that look relatively similar every fucking time. And what happens is when we breach these all time highs after having   and you go into open water Bitcoin,   we tend to have massive upside. And even when it corrects back down, you don't get near that all that previous all time high level. Right?  

So there there's something to be said here about in this specific time trying to get aggressively off 0 if you haven't already.   But I mean, really the ideal is to not be in this fucking situation. Like if you have no sats right now, what the fuck did you do over these last couple of years? Like, what the fuck was going on there?  

[01:04:42] Unknown:

The thing I'm seeing with my,   my MBA friends is that they have 0%   Bitcoin   and   their instinct is to to dip a toe and wait a year, you know, see how it performs for a year. But if you do that, then   you miss out on what's happening, what's coming.   And   this sort of happened for me is like,   it's hard for me to to move the needle that much more on this app that I have,   versus like if I had just bought a little bit more upfront.   Because as you know, when you're in for a cycle then it 10 x is 10 x harder to stack the same amount of sats.   So I think dipping a toe can be a,   can be the wrong, like,   instinct   because of the, like, time sensitivity of Bitcoin   when it starts to run when it's in price discovery here.  



[01:05:39] Unknown:

Yeah. But I think that's just always true and will always be. Like,   you will never be able to move the needle of your past purchases. If you assume out enough, it's gonna be an exponential   trend all the way until   everything is said and done. So that's just that's just the nature of this game. That's just the way it's going to be. And I I understand I I understand,   yeah, what I would call the the Robert Breedlove approach because he he has been,   outlining that quite well in terms of if you have   enough cash on the side by lump sum and DCA later, so to speak. But, again, I think it's it it it also it has its own risks because you you want to time your entry.   That that the larger your sum, the the   the more inclined you are to trade,   like,   cycles to Yeah. And then the price drops the price drops 5 k or something, and you freak the fuck out. Let me just tell you, all of that is bullshit. Like, just if you if you have a lot of money,   just take that money and and do do auto DCA with that as well. Like like, let's say let's say you have 30 k. Okay. Then just pick any month   and put in a 1,000 like, put in 1 k every day. Then then then your whole stash is done. And if you still have a a fiat job, and you can you can I don't know? You can't afford to put in 25% of your paycheck, Just do that and leave your life as normal and never look at the price chart again. And just do that until 2029, and you can thank thank me later. And that's just the cheat code. And if you don't believe me, then just  

[01:07:08] Unknown:

have a question for it. Yeah. Exactly. No. Like, yeah, you can you can   that's what people don't realize. Like, you could flex your stack, like, the amount you stack.   You can in the beginning, you can do a higher amount while you buy when you buy in your original position, and then you can lower it over time.   So we have a couple of questions in the comments that I I I wanna hit here.   First of all,   someone said there's no auto stacking option in Europe.   Gigi is the European. I know Get Better used to exist. It doesn't anymore.   I'm an advisor for Bottlepay   with a small equity stake,   and they're about they're, like, in the testing phase right now. They're about to hit the app store with their own,   Auto Stack service.  

And I believe Stripe is about to launch in Europe. So those are 2 options. Gigi, do you have another option for anyone that's trying to Auto Stack in Europe?  

[01:08:00] Unknown:

Yeah. There are actually 3 that I'm aware of, and there might be more even.   Like,   the one that I recommend   from time to time is Relay.   They're Swiss based.   You have to check with your bank.   Sometimes,   like, ridiculous   transfer fees occur because you're,   yeah, you're transferring from   European Union,   area to Switzerland.   And,   that's good. Like, that's proper DCA.   There's, like I I would say they are good people. They they have a horrible   shit kind of PhD   adviser on board. But,   they said on Twitter that they will be always Bitcoin only, and so far that has been true. So, that's good. There is also there's XSets.   I haven't used it myself yet, but that looks okay ish as well. It's rather new.  

There are some exchanges that do DCA.   There is one in Austria that's called Bitpanda.   I think it's available in Europe, in general,   and you can set your auto DCA savings plan there as well. And, what I personally would recommend if you have a Kraken account, like, the the the thing with DCA is it's always up to now, it's still always bound to KYC.   And,   that's just something I think this problem will be solved somehow in the future, but for now, you you will have to go through KYC. But the problem is solved by your boss paying you under the table in fucking sats.   Yeah. Of course. Like, that's that's the ideal, but but both people aren't there yet. Relay has,   same as Bitr, like, Lite KYC. They only have   they only have,   your bank information. You don't have to actually, you know, like, give up a a stool sample and scan in your passport and and stuff like that. And there is also,   what I would recommend if you have if you have an account by, on cracking already and you have a recipe blitz, then the best thing to do is install the recipe blitz cracking stacking sets plug in. And that's that was written by a friend of mine, Dennis Ryman.  

And,   it it basically is just a cron job that uses the cracking API to stack for you. So you top up your cracking account   and that you just have some field in your cracking account, and it just takes from there. And it it's it just stacks, like, every minute if you want to. So all all of those options are awesome. And,   so you can do weekly, daily, and even, like, every minute,   and can DCA in Europe, like, no no problem.   And someone pointed out in the chat, maybe maybe it's good to hit on that as well. That's,   everyone should go bisk.  

And I I I agree with the sentiment, and it would be great. I think we will have that at some point in the future, just like, you know, we had lightning was   very hard to use in a noncustodial way, and now it isn't. And,   mixing also, you know, like, now now we've joined market and everything goes into this   better UX, non custodial   direction. And I I I don't think there is a reason why you can't have very similar to toy market,   like a bot or something that uses bisques and you you basically do auto DCA operations and you you just   take care of what needs to be done and   and power through a queue to just authorize payments or whatever. I I think that can come in the future, but,   for now it's just,   yeah, not possible to do. But I would what I would like to stress to everyone who's listening to this is the psychological benefits of auto DCA cannot be overstated.  

Like, just the difference between hitting a button and forcing yourself to stand up and buy daily or biweekly,   And, you know, then price shoots up like 50%. Are you gonna do your weekly buy? No. Of course, you're not because you're a human being and you're like, oh, no. Now the price is too high. I'm gonna wait 2 days and so on and so forth. Like, it cannot be overstated how how great psychologically   Auto DCA is. And I think still most Bitcoiners miss that because most, like, there's so many people that just don't auto DCA yet. And once you switch, I think there's just no going back.  

[01:11:51] Unknown:

So yeah. I mean,   fuck yes. Thank you, Gigi. That was a great,   really great insight there. I agree with pretty much everything you said.   I think what what   a key thing here is, like so KYC is this idea is that they take all this personal information for you.   They they take it's it's when they take your ID and they take your mailing address   and, maybe passport information. All this different information, they take it from you,   and they report it to their local regulators and they store it and they tie that to all your Bitcoin addresses. And this is very dangerous, especially dangerous if you're not using it with CoinJoin. And it's a trusted relationship. It's a trusted relationship where where you're trusting that organization   with your private information. You're trusting anyone that they're sharing it with.  

All that said,   I personally   strongly believe that everyone should avoid KYC services   except the one time where I think   it's tolerable and it's it's it's, you know, it's not ideal. Obviously, it's not ideal   is if you're if you're converting your KYC paycheck into Bitcoin automatically.   And that's because it's already KYC'd. It's sitting in your KYC bank account already.   And it it might as well just go through another KYC service, a single KYC service that you trust the most. You just leave it to a single one, and it just comes into Bitcoin and then you immediately coin join. And I think that that's like a a decent enough trade off balance there.   And then on top of that, you could have your separate,   KYC free stack,   that you stack through bisque.  

And just because I've I fucking love the project, I just wanna do,   I just wanna show a quick video on bisque,   before we jump back into the discussion. So enjoy.   There are many places to buy Bitcoin.   They collect your personal information   and jeopardize your privacy.   KYC is the illicit activity.   This is open source.   It does not collect user data.   You keep your private keys,   create or take off to trade peer to peer, and keep your Bitcoin private and secure.   So that's best. Check it out.  

[01:14:03] Unknown:

I want to point out one one thing,   to defend my position that I think that all of that will come, like, non k y c, all the stacking and stuff like that.   Just keep in mind what what's just said in this video   is more profound than it seems because they said that Biscuit is open source. And the the thing about open source, free and open source software is it doesn't die, it doesn't go away. That's also why Bitcoin just doesn't die and and won't go away. Bisk that that like,   what do you have to understand is that Bisk   will outlive every single company that you can mention in the Bitcoin space right now. BISK will outlive Coinbase. It will out it it will just outlive all of it. That's that's why open source is winning, and that's why free software is winning. And so the sooner you understand that, the the sooner you also realize that that   the way forward is with services like that. And the more, like, exposure to you get to something like that early, it's like, you know, I'm getting into Linux in in the nineties or or something like that, you know. Like Linux is still around and most operating systems and and other things are just not around. You know, it's just it's just the way   that that this kind of these kind of things work. So that's something to keep in mind.  

And, yeah, sorry for the philosophical rant. I'm just, you know, the whiskey is talking. It's not me.  

[01:15:22] Unknown:

Crow, what's your opinion? I feel like we're overpowering you.  

[01:15:25] Unknown:

You know, I I have less strong feelings about   about KYC. I I sort of, you know, I I view it as,   basically inevitable part of reaching   the mainstream.   But Gigi's point here about, like, you know,   open source,   wins   that certainly has been bearing out.   And   I I hope that it goes in that direction. And,   like,   I I frankly haven't used,   non k y c services to acquire Bitcoin,   because it's intimidating to me. I'm like, I'm not that technical of a person.   It's kind of a miracle that I'm in bitcoin at this point, this early   as it is because,   I I, you know, I come at it from   more of a a business numbers,   big picture thinking,   point of view   and have less mastery of the technical side.  

So I haven't used that stuff and I and I don't really know how much I'm missing   in terms of it's important.   But I would like to use it because everybody else seems to think it's so important, but it's too intimidating   for me still. So if this, and other open source things,   you know, continue to improve and build on previous open source   iterations,   then that sounds great.  

[01:16:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think,   what you said about DCA being inevitable   is very, very true. Because,   if we continue to be right about these things, Bitcoin will just continue on its trajectory.   And, it doesn't even matter if, like, this is the last cycle or, like, some, crazy macro guys are talking about or if it just continues to go up and down and up and down, and we have this bullet bear It's not a lot of cycle. Yeah. No. I don't think it is.   It's it's so ridiculous that, you know, like, nobody was taking me seriously one and a half years ago when I was saying, like, you know, 2029, maybe, hyperbitcoinization,  

[01:17:29] Unknown:

stuff like that. And now I'm the bearish now I'm the bearish one that decides so annoying. They, like, out bull us. You know? It's, like, used to be profound that we could be, like, Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, and now, like, fucking Scott Meager is saying the same exact fucking thing. And and my dad's like, oh, well, Scott has a point. You know? It's hyperbitcoinization  

[01:17:47] Unknown:

tomorrow. You know? But it's I think you said this as well, Matt. It's like, if if you if you're if you're living through your first, proper,  

[01:17:54] Unknown:

bull cycle, then it feels like it's gonna be hyper Bitcoinization now. I think almost every Bitcoin Yeah. It feels like it has a cycle. It's going to feel like it this cycle at some point. We just, I haven't hit my personal point where I think that yet. But I know at some point, I'm gonna be like hybrid Bitcoinization is upon us. This is the last cycle, and then we will probably dump shortly after that.  

[01:18:17] Unknown:

Yeah.   And and that's just a that's a function of just capturing the next incremental slice of the adoption curve,   and it feels infinite at that point in time.   But you've only just captured, you know, the next   set of people that are potentially open to the idea of Bitcoin   and   are, you know, interested enough that the FOMO pulls them in for that cycle. And then, you know, 4 years later, you capture the next incremental size and so on.  

[01:18:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I I think, you know, in in terms of of of DCA,   we are still at a point where most of the world is forced to use fiat. And if you're forced to use fiat and forced to earn fiat, I mean, in a way, like, you're forced to earn fiat by society. Most people won't be pay you in sets. It it's just too complicated, too much of a hassle. There are some some people like Max Hollebrand for example and and others, that,   live on a   pure   Bitcoin standard and just like earn sets and nothing else pretty much and and spend sets and so on. But that's just, you know, like, that's that's the minority of the minority.   And I think,   DCA will be with us all throughout this process of Bitcoinization.  

And just   if you if you're early and you you understand Bitcoin early, then you will save in sets because sets are the best savings technology. And you're still earning in fiat, and then you're converting a certain percentage to sets, and that's just your savings vehicle. What I think will be interesting is we will see reverse DCA as well. I think we will definitely see that. I I think we saw that already. Bitcoin is doing that. That Bitcoin just pumped so hard and you were you managed to save so many sets that you're just like, okay. I'm I'm set.   And I'm just I'm gonna buy a nice house or a small island or a boat or what have you, and I'm just Bitcoin is gonna pay my allowance. So you basically reverse DCA out of it because maybe you're you're renting a place not gonna happen. Some island. You're wrong, Gigi. That's a poor cake.  

You think so? I think you will be forced I I I I think you will be forced to use fiat for a long time. No. No. No. No. Wrong.   So you think everyone you everyone will move to a a citadel island and it would just be circular,  

[01:20:30] Unknown:

economy from now on? I think we're gonna move to Sats being the preferred method of   of receiving payment quicker than anyone can really fathom. I mean, I I think as an American, you I I I witnessed this as a child. I mean, I would go to other countries,   and we kind of didn't, you know   if you don't wanna be a if you don't wanna be a dick, you should you should probably convert your money ahead of time. But, if you're American and you're traveling, it's not as as much the case now, especially not in Europe. You used to be able to just,   if you pulled out a greenback, it was preferable. You almost would get a better price, than if if you paid them in their local currency. You could get a better conversion rate if you just paid directly in that in that better money. And Bitcoin is is obviously the better money.  

So how long till it takes for for the majority to realize that? And I think there's a turning point here where where it's it's not it's not nearly as long as people think it is.   So maybe, like, if if you're a high time preference whore and you're you're trying to,   get out get out of sats in the next 5 years, then then maybe okay, then there's some room for that. But I think,   past that, like, you're just gonna be paying for things in SaaS, baby.  

[01:21:42] Unknown:

I just love that you called me a high time preference whore. I said if you were to be 1 I said if you were to be 1, it was it was not a  

[01:21:50] Unknown:

a direct statement.  

[01:21:52] Unknown:

I mean, I agree. Like, I think I think it can happen way quicker than most people think. And I I I like the I like the,   American perspective of, you know, like everyone would just pay, take your dollars because   just because that's how the world works,   as a poor European   pleb   that still remembers, you know, like, shit coins like the Italian lira, man. That's I don't I don't know that.   It's just   I I I don't know good money. I didn't grow up with good money. So, yeah, you might be right. I think I think you will be very right in cyberspace. I think we see that already. You know? Like, we see projects,   like Citadel 21, for example. They they have a circular economy already. Like, everyone who who did something for them,   got paid in Sats, like those people that that got paid and they only sell their stuff for Sats. We will see that in the Bitcoin space, like, I I think we will we will see that continue, and I think we will that will spread out quickly. Like, if you if you're selling digital things, digital goods, and or, like, if for god's sakes, like, if if you're a cam girl or a gamer or something, someone who just takes tips and and and so on, I think the centralized platforms because of censorship will die, and I think that,  

[01:23:00] Unknown:

people will just take sets directly. So The the Huddl Deepa, welcome to what American exceptionalism feels like, Gigi.  

[01:23:07] Unknown:

Awesome.  

[01:23:09] Unknown:

We're on the right side this time, Gigi.   So I agree with everything you guys are saying, but I think it's just so much earlier. Like, it I think from the vantage point of a Bitcoin, it doesn't feel that early, but it's so much earlier than than we realized because   so, like, I wanna I wanna pull Matt and Gigi,   how many Bitcoin maximalists or   put a different way, how many people   in the world,   view Bitcoin as their unit of account, like, today? How many do you think we're at? There's, like, dozens of us.  

[01:23:49] Unknown:

Dozens. There's a nice nice gift.  

[01:23:53] Unknown:

You know, I get I get a little bit ashamed,   or self conscious when I when I get particularly drunk on some of these podcasts.   But I I think   I, you know, I think that's where it really shows if if if if Sats are unit of count or not. If you can just if you can just drunkenly,   rattle off stats conversions and that, like, that's where you default to. Like, that that that's where unit of count gets stable,   in the minds of of many is is when they're when they're drunken and about, and, that's what they're thinking in. My problem is that for the longest time, like, even with the drop down to,  

[01:24:31] Unknown:

8 the 3.8 k or what it was, my anchor was 10 k. And I'm afraid my anchor for the set conversion will remain 10 k until we hit the 100 k. So I'm still at 10 k. So that's my that's my quick set conversion.  

[01:24:45] Unknown:

My anchors are like, they move at the hard numbers. So   so so, actually, there's a   we were we did a special for I did a special with Bitcoin Magazine,   for proof of keys for Bitcoin's,   12th birthday.   And I'm interviewing   or I I was just really having a free flowing conversation with Wiz and Catan, and we passed 30 k for the first time ever.   And in that conversation, you can see it on the block clock, but I had no idea that it was that we had passed 30 k, but I was already rattling off my Sats conversions in that conversation based on 30 k. Like, I I once we hit, like, 26 k, I I moved up to 30.   You know, it's, like, you you have to you have to keep I move with the hard numbers because, I mean, otherwise like, the math is ridiculous. I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it on anything less than a 10 k change.  



[01:25:36] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, like, that's that's a side effect, I guess, not looking at the price. It's just as long as   as long as my sats on their own do their little n g u and every day I have a a a small amount of sats more, then that's good. That's a good day, you know. And   my block clock only shows the block time because that's all that matters. As long as blocks are coming in, everything is sandy and sunny in cyberspace.   And we're now at 664-696.   There you go.   And so I think, you know, the set conversion. I think it will Bitcoin has to settle down a little bit for for that to work for more people and What is the point you need to settle down? The dollar is too volatile. The dollar should settle down in ZAT's terms. Yeah. The dollar should just go away, and then we can we can just stick with Sats.  

[01:26:23] Unknown:

Have you guys looked at the the the m one or m two chart recently?   The the number of dollars in circulation?  

[01:26:32] Unknown:

Yeah. It looks like the Weimar,  

[01:26:34] Unknown:

hyperinflation chart. Right? Yeah. That it's not.  

[01:26:38] Unknown:

It's like a hockey hockey stick chart.   Yeah.   I I think, you know, we're in for a wild ride, and I think 2021   will be a fun year for Bitcoiners and   a year full of pain for most   most people.   So, yeah, Bitcoiners and Contelionaires   will profit, I guess, and everyone else won't. So I think   it's it's very hard to   again, as Matt said as well, it's it's it's so hard to stay humble, but but I think I think just economically speaking in in the macro landscape and just,   with everything that   happened because of corona and lockdowns. I think   I think it's gonna be ugly, and I think, you know, it's   the the stuff that I'm struggling with the most is that I think we're still living in peacetime. And I I have the feeling that, you know, it just   up to now,   even with all the civil wars and and and other things, Bitcoin kinda had a somewhat, I would say, smooth ride in a way. I've you you know, like, there was not a full out on like full on war on Bitcoiners or on Bitcoin.  

And   I'm   I think Seifedean has interesting opinions on that as well because he mentions that it might be, like, just   maybe there won't be any war coming and it would just be a gradual   a gradual opting out of field system and a gradual adoption of the Bitcoin standard, and that would be very beautiful in a way. But it's also hard to tell what kind of side effects that would bring because I would say the transition to the Internet, like, you know, the death of the newspapers and, of other traditional media and print media.   It kinda happened gradually, I I would say, but it wasn't without its side effects. So   what keeps me up at night sometimes is just thinking about potential side effects and also thinking about a potential, like, nation state attack kind of war on Bitcoin on on Bitcoin was coming.  



[01:28:33] Unknown:

But can we like, I mean, the the way we started this conversation was,   Crow asking how many people are pricing in SaaS, and I jokingly said dozens. But, like, let's be realistic, like, less than a1000.   Cool. Right? And, like, if if we're talking about it, how many Bitcoiners are running are using their own full node?   It's like max in the tens of thousands probably. Right? And we're talking about how many people are using CoinJoin,   Like, what? It's, like, probably in a similar range, maybe a little bit less than that.   Self custody. What are we at at self custody? Like, maybe a1000000?  

2,000,000?  

[01:29:07] Unknown:

There are I think that addresses  

[01:29:10] Unknown:

with,   0.1 Bitcoin.  

[01:29:13] Unknown:

Right. And it's less than that. That's a that's a upper limit.  

[01:29:16] Unknown:

Mhmm.   Right.  

[01:29:19] Unknown:

So less than 3,000,000. Because, like, I have multiple addresses. People have multiple addresses.  

[01:29:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I so for one of my,   tweet threads, I did this exercise of, like, what are what are we at in terms of progress of adoption through the s curve   for the different, like, levels of Bitcoin adoption, which is to say, like, you know, at first somebody might own $20 worth of Bitcoin and that counts by some metrics. You know, some people say like, oh, there's like a 150,000,000   people who own digital assets and that's really what they're capturing is people who have, like, plenty of money in it. And then there's, you know, people who have like a 1% hedge. There's people who have like a significant position of like 10 or 20%.   And then there's people who have like over 50%.  

And   when I tried to like walk through the exercise of of what is that,   looks like a reasonable number for that final group,   I came up with like a at most and it's probably well   under this number, but I I came up with 250,000 people   have reached the point where the majority of their money is in Bitcoin, which means that we're at, like,   0.01%   penetration   of of the eventual total adoption.   It's so early that it's impossible for me to to to imagine   everyone else figuring it out   even in the next 10 years.  

[01:30:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I I I agree somewhat, but I think people are also   not everyone has to figure it out, you know? Like,   not everyone understands the Internet who is using the Internet and I'm you you also have to think in terms of infrastructure inversion. Like, there was a point in time, I I always call it the voice over IP moment, where most phones in the developed world switched to voice over IP and just are using the Internet underneath, but they still work the same way and look the same way. And I think the same will be true in Bitcoin as well. Like the Internet just gobbled everything up. It ate everything up exponentially that has to do with information. And I think Bitcoin will eat everything up that has to do with value and money and the the transfer of money, and settlement of money, and so on and so forth. And   I think Bitcoin's voice of IP moment is coming, and I think that will be a huge boost. I think the the whole the whole adoption s curve and if you're interested in that, SkyBridge   brought out a great report very recently. They have this adoption s curve in it as well. Which mooch the Mooches Fund? Scaramoochies Fund? Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It was literally just a deck full of Bitcoin Twitter memes.  

Yeah. It was. It's great.  

[01:31:58] Unknown:

It it's very accurate. Like, it's it has a it has a lot of distilled truth. My people are going to show up in Bitcoin and see opportunity and, you know, project themselves as   as experts. So that is that's what the MBAs will do. We're coming, and it's not gonna be very appreciated.  

[01:32:18] Unknown:

That's fine. That's fine. As long as they are shilling the corn, that's fine. You know? I'm I would love I'd love when they come in and pump my bags. You know? That's the right mentality.   And in in this report, they also have, like, this s curve analysis,   like,   potential adoption analysis.   And,   they I think they they said, and we see this s curve graphs all the time, and I think we're still before on most the stuff that I see, we're still before   the early adopters. Like, like, the early adopters started,   I don't know, 66.9%  

[01:32:50] Unknown:

or something. It's almost very first part of of the earliest group.  

[01:32:55] Unknown:

Yeah. So we're still innovator innovator stage. And   in the in the SkyBridge report, I think they only took the American market and they picked the number like 10%. Like, 10% of Americans in 2020 own Bitcoin somehow.   And so   what they what they see is that,   in 2029, which is my   hyperbitcoinization prediction data,   90%   of Americans will are are projected to own Bitcoin. And I think the voice of IP moment moment, like the infrastructure inversion, like the news came out I think yesterday or today in the morning or something that banks are now allowed to settle in Bitcoin and use use Bitcoin, like use open block blockchains for settlement. I think that was the the language used. And when that happens, the same thing that hap that happened with the telephones will happen. You know, like, everyone is still using their kind of cards and smartwatches and whatnot to pay and, just everything will work as normal.   But there will be a lot of demand for block space underneath just for settlement, and that will change everything. And and suddenly you have an insane bull market, and you have an insane s curve, you know, like you and this large adoption s curve is made up of smaller s curves, and those are the cycles that we see. And at at some point in time, it doesn't make sense anymore to measure these cycles in dollars. And that's, I think, when it makes sense to to speak of a breaking point of it, like, a hyperbitcoinization   point.  



[01:34:17] Unknown:

Good points. I just want to first of all, someone mentioned in the comments,   that we should just if you're a new Bitcoiner out there and you're using something like Robinhood or Revolut,   that doesn't allow you to withdraw your Bitcoin,   you should immediately use another platform.   That that is that they're not actually selling Bitcoin, PayPal as well. They're not actually selling Bitcoin. If you can't withdraw,   then then there's no point. Ultimately, even if you're not gonna withdraw right away, you should the goal should be to withdraw eventually and,   take custody yourself and and control your own money. Otherwise, you don't have that value prop. You can get locked out of your funds, so just be aware of that.  

The second thing is you mentioned this OCC news.   Jack Blatchford actually asked us about 40 minutes ago about it, and I did wanna circle back to it. So just tell the freaks out there in in the audience, don't get discouraged, you know, if you keep hitting us with questions.   We we will hopefully discuss them, here.   So so do you think this is bullish, Gigi? You you made it seem like this is very bullish.   To me, it was kind of a non story. Am I wrong?  

[01:35:21] Unknown:

I don't know. Like,   it's very hard for me to answer if if that is bullish or not. Like, in a sense, everything is good for Bitcoin. And the way I see this is   there there is, like   first of all, Bitcoin doesn't care. It really doesn't matter. And you can decide how you want to interact with Bitcoin and how you use it. And Bitcoin's fundamentals haven't changed. Bitcoin's value proposition hasn't changed. And if you're,   like   an Adcap, Bitcoin, or in a circular economy, this does this doesn't phase you at all.   But in terms of adoption   and in terms of gaining,   legitimacy,   it might be, you know, like, it's very hard to be,   an an investor that said   the line for the last 5 years that Bitcoin is only for people that do illegal things. And, you know, like, that's kind of true now because now banks use it and they're doing all kinds of illegal things. But you get my point, you know, like it's it's,   I I don't think it's a non story. We will see what comes next because what I what news PG, it's shitcoiner news. I think, yes, everything's good for Bitcoin, but,  

[01:36:25] Unknown:

you know, as someone who does this show and does a weekly news show on Bitcoin, I think Bitcoin is really pretty bored if I just told them every news story just, oh, this is good for Bitcoin. Yeah. There's different degrees,   and I think this is a shitcoin story. I think this is,   you know, so called stable coins and,   you know, these these are these are short term things.   I think banks banks integrating Bitcoin is an inevitability,   but I I don't I I a self sovereign Bitcoin user gives 2 shits.  

[01:36:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. I I I completely agree. And I think I think in the in the next coming years, we will see all kinds of bullshit in terms of,   you know, like,   digital euros and digital dollars and just central bank, quote, unquote, blockchain money and all that kind of shit. All of all of that was it's going to come. Like,   we saw just individuals coming up with their own,   spin on shit coins in 2017.   And, it got more sophisticated over the years. And now we're gonna have, like, nation states and central banks do it. And that's gonna be bad. A lot of a lot of people will lose a lot of money, and a lot of people will just miss out on Bitcoin because of it. But I also think, you know, just like   2017   was kind of,   I wouldn't necessarily say it was a necessity or something, but it's it's kind of inevitable in an open system. And I think we will just need to   clean away this sludge that's that's going to happen. And Bitcoin will be fine, I think. Bitcoin will   survive all that.  

And and I I believe that Bitcoin will survive all that because it is built for survival and shit coins are not built for survival. And they're just built to enrich a small group of people, and it doesn't matter who is behind the shitcoin. So so in the end, I think things are going to be fine. Just,   you know, let let the the next shitcoin wave wash over you and just keep stacking and keep being productive and ignore the the shitcoin news as much as you can.  

[01:38:22] Unknown:

Matt, I think the OCC news is is a big deal.   Not actually, like, for any directories and and I totally agree that that more than anything, it's getting a lot of press in   the crypto community because it gives hope   to altcoiners.   But I think what it tells me   is that so the the OCC,   generally provides guidance   when   large banks request,   specific guidance on a topic. They when they petition   to have some,   have the rights to do something that they think would be, positive for their businesses. That's the only way those g issues guidance.   So this means that the banks want to   start using digital assets   to,   exchange money between them   between themselves.  

And more than anything, that's like just like a big crack   in the wall between   the traditional system   and embracing   Bitcoin   that is now there, that wasn't there,   a few days ago.   And   that trend, you know, goes in one direction of that wall will keep getting cracks added to it until it just falls apart.   And,   you know, the way that finance   operates is   fully integrated with Bitcoin as a settlement   layer.   So it doesn't directly mean that much, but it says that there's a lot going on behind the scenes of banks   actively leaning into,   like, adopting digital assets   and yeah, that might mean altcoins for now but we all know where that goes, Torrance, eventually.  

And it means that that that   mainstream   opinion of   digital assets is like a viable   technology,   just took a a step forward. Not a leap forward, but a solid step forward   and that's not gonna reverse.  

[01:40:29] Unknown:

The the thing about bull market cycles is we're gonna have tons and tons of noise. We're gonna have tons and tons of news items   that people are gonna pretend are way more bullish than they are. And and and media is gonna hype the shit out of them because it gets them more clicks. And and historically in the past, it's been the CoinDesk of the world, the blocks of   the   of the   but now it's even the main media. We had Fox Business saying that the OCC pumped price of Bitcoin and that's why the price of Bitcoin is going up. The reality is is the head of the OCC is the former lead lawyer of Coinbase,   and Coinbase has been obsessed with this bullshit   fucking stable coins nonsense.  

And they've completely missed, you know, the forest for the trees here. Like, obviously,   like, Sats are my stable coin. Like, the stable coins don't solve anything. They're they're tied to a shitty money that is not stable inherently,   and   and they require trusted third party to use that is gonna be regulated. So the whole censorship resistance   value prop, the key reason I think the majority of us is here and why had things have value   doesn't exist for them. So,   of course, when he becomes, you know, the head of the OCC,   banks are allowed to use their, you know,   regulated   their   their VC chains and all this. I I don't I don't think it really   I don't think it's a bad thing. I think everything's good for Bitcoin, but I just don't I think the hype isn't there. That that the the hype isn't is where where it should be here.  



[01:42:01] Unknown:

That's a good point.   I fully agree with all that.   And, you know, maybe maybe the real utility of this this news   is simply that it generates hype and attention and attracts   interest,   to the whole space because,   you know, even if you even if it's a requirement to go through some   altcoiner stage, which it isn't, but,   even if you have to go through that journey   to eventually get to Bitcoin,   every little piece of news that pops up on CNN or Forbes or whatever,   makes makes the people who've been sitting on the sidelines watching   Bitcoin go up,   have just a little bit more FOMO and make them a little bit closer to jumping in.  

And,   you know, maybe that's the the utility that this news provides is it just adds to this pile of FOMO that's gonna   force people eventually over the next year   to to jump into Bitcoin.  

[01:42:59] Unknown:

I I want to point out one thing, Matt.   I that I why I brought it up in the first place and why I think it is more bullish than you might give it credit for. And this is the infrastructure inversion topic because we won't see the mainstream banks settling anything on Bitcoin anytime soon. But what I think we will see is,   Bitcoin companies, they   they have the motivation now to actually become a bank and do that in a in like, be able   to settle   their payments globally in Bitcoin,   also   inside a jurisdiction where this is legal. You know? Like, you you can, of course,   just try to do it and break the law, whatever.  

But I think I think this is one step towards this infrastructure inversion. And I I see a world already. Like, for me, this is crystal clear that this is going to happen, that   just   apps   like Cash App and and Strike and everyone who is working on the payment rails side of things, so to speak,   They they will there there will be a point where you can just basically do what WeChat and Alipay is doing in China, but you do it on Bitcoin and you do it in a in a free and censorship resistant way.   I might be wrong, you know, like, I can see the possibility.   But I I think I think that it's one step towards,   the also the regulatory framework,   where something like that goes way, way easier for the companies that are actually working on that.  



[01:44:40] Unknown:

Look. I mean, I I think there's I think there was good good points made here on on both sides.   And I think it it'll be pretty obvious, like, as things start to play out,   which stories are   are are are are are noise and which stories are signal.   And   I just caution people to just be wary.   We're at the beginning of the precipice of a massive run here, and there's gonna be so much noise, and there's gonna be so much bullshit.   And really at the end of the day, like, most of the shit doesn't matter,   and and Bitcoin will just keep trucking on.   I I want to When when ETF when ETF, man? When ETF. Yeah. Exactly. VanEck just recently launched their ETF again, so I'm sure we'll hear a bunch of stuff about that.  

Where did I wanna bring this to? I wanted to bring this to something.   Someone mentioned in here   so so so someone mentioned earlier, they said coin join. Why do people say you should CoinJoin if you KYC and you should CoinJoin if you use Bisc and you're not and you're not using KYC?   And the reason is because CoinJoin is at its essence is is   a is a batch Bitcoin send transaction. It's a Bitcoin transaction   that uses best practices in terms of privacy. And if you don't want the person who sends you Bitcoin, whether that's Bisk or whether, you know, an individual on Bisq, whether that's your employee employer who's paying you in Bitcoin,   whether it's a customer at your store,   whether that's Cash App who's sending it to you,   you if you don't want that person to know your total balances, all your future transactions, then you have to use CoinJoin. And the same goes for people you pay pay you pay. And if you pay someone you don't want them to know,   your current balance, your future balance, future transactions, you're gonna you're gonna need to use CoinJoin.  

And and this is just something that people need to keep in mind because Bitcoin is an open ledger that's out there forever.   And and if we're right, it's it's gonna exist forever and it's never gonna change. So so you're gonna just have this ledger of every single transaction you've ever made. And if you made a mistake, it's gonna screw you in the future. So you need to start educating yourself on that now.   Couple good guides are bitcoinprivacy.guide.   Usewhirlpool.com   as a coinjoin specific guide. 6102   bitcoin.com.  

Oh, no. Bitcoin dash only.com/hashtagprivacy   is another one.   You should work on his domains. I think I have btcprivacy.org   redirect to that. But, anyway, there's a bunch of shills out for that.   6102   did have a question. That's what I wanted to bring up,   about Taproot. Do we think that this price appreciation is gonna delay Taproot activation? What do we think about Taproot activation?  

[01:47:29] Unknown:

I I actually don't think it has that much of an influence,   on on a delay.   I I think   I I think I think we will   see it this year,   and I think support is strong in general.   Last time I checked, it was, like, 95%   plus on Taproot activation.   And I I think it's   just in general,   this process is slow and should be slow.   But I think that   most   people agree that this is an,   like,   a great upgrade, and   the the risks are, I think, kind of well understood and   not too big in the 1st place. So   I I think   in   the the reason why I think that the price action doesn't delay too much is that most people that are actually working on Taproot and working on the activation and stuff like that, they've been around for a long while. I think they have their way of   of, you know, like, their info.  



[01:48:29] Unknown:

No way, Gigi. It affects everybody.   You think so? You think it really affects? You either you either have a lot of Bitcoin   and the price is moving, you know, affects your net worth significantly,   or you don't have enough Bitcoin and the price moving is giving you massive FOMO. And either way, every single person you know in real life thinks of you as the Bitcoin guy and this is starting to reach out to you. And you know they're gonna start to reach out to you more and more.   And you have people like Michael Sailor entering the ring that all have very big opinions and are talking all over the place. Right? It just creates all this additional   so so so let's let's talk empirically. I want you both on the record. Today is January 5th. January 5th 2022. Hate to do it to you. Can I use a tap root? Where I am. Okay. January 6th. Apologies.  

Really block time is all that matters. Can I use can I use a Taproot address this time next year?  

[01:49:25] Unknown:

Yes. I think so. Yeah. I will say that.  

[01:49:29] Unknown:

Well, you know,   I'm glad you guys are bullish.  

[01:49:33] Unknown:

I'm bullish on Taproot. I I truly think that someone like Peter Woller,   you know, and and I I I I have those people in mind. I don't I don't think they're faced too much by the price action. They sit down and they do the thing and it's gonna be They're definitely getting hit up by all their friends who have ignored them for years now.  

[01:49:50] Unknown:

Yeah.   So so so our text based host, 6102 Bitcoin asked, so if you think Taproot will be active at this point next year and will be using the address, what is the activation method? How does that look?  

[01:50:02] Unknown:

I have no idea. That's beyond   me.  

[01:50:05] Unknown:

I also I I just can't answer I don't know. Like, it's Yeah. Well, so it's easy to be bullish when you don't have a plan.  

[01:50:12] Unknown:

That's true.  

[01:50:15] Unknown:

That's right.  

[01:50:16] Unknown:

I I mean, I think that Bitcoiners should start pushing for it, and I and and I don't want people to think that I'm being derogatory towards it. I think being realistically pessimistic   could maybe trigger people into pushing for it more.   So, hopefully, they didn't hear me say that, and that's kind of what I've been going for, because I think everyone is being a little bit too naively bullish,   when really we want,   like, cautiously optimistic action, and we need people to, like, kinda push for this because,   after what happened last time,   you know,   no one's paycheck relies on getting this thing activated, and no one wants to stand up,   to to to to, like, push the ball forward, basically.  

They don't want they don't wanna get hit in within all the crossfire. So so it should be interesting to see   how this plays out, and it's definitely a big thing that people should be watching for big I'm   like, let let's be honest, though. Like, I don't think it   you know, Bitcoin pumps regardless.   It's not like price news.  

[01:51:19] Unknown:

Yeah. And and also in terms of Taproot activation, I mean, everyone should understand that this is, like, a long process, just the activation process and stuff. But whatever path it will take, it will always be a long process and then just also the the Which is a feature. Let's explain why. Of course. It is a feature. But also the even if it's then activated, also just   the network   that every individual node gradually opting in into the change and making use of it is an even longer process. You know? Like, we just, like forever. What what's what segue the usage at? You know? Like, it's I don't know. Said, like, 50% or something. Yeah. So so that's ridiculous.   And so I I I would say, you know, like, Taproot, yes,   for   the the very enthusiastic people that are super early.  

But, like, widespread usage, you know, that that takes its time and that's that's a feature.  

[01:52:11] Unknown:

And why why is that a feature?   Let's let's let's explain this.  

[01:52:17] Unknown:

I'm not sure if I can do it quickly because, you know, like, 3rd glass of whiskey. But   what what everyone has to understand is Bitcoin works because you run your own network, so to speak. You you make the rules. You know, it makes the rules. And there is just no way to force anyone to opt into anything. Like, that it's there there are no automatic upgrades. There are no there is no there is no, like, Bitcoin   there are no Bitcoin high priests that decide what gets activated. Everyone has to decide, like, different actors have to decide   to upgrade their notes. And,   that's that's why even even if it becomes part of the protocol and of the client and and and all of that,  

[01:52:55] Unknown:

everyone has to decide individually to upgrade to a certain version, activate it, and so on and so forth. Yeah. I mean, this this simple the simple concept to see here is if if there was a central party that can initiate auto updates, then that central party becomes an attack vector and they can they can easily just,   add some kind of malicious update that either benefits themselves   or,   if they're forced to by a regulatory body, which is is historically what we've seen with any kind of,   financial system that that that tries to subvert authority.   And this goes back to that Chitcoin conversation previously,   is is if you have decentralized chains, like, they just cannot provide,   you know, this idea of decentralization,   of distribution,   of robustness is is not a question of marketing. It's not a question of selling the token. It's a question of absolute necessity.  

If you do not have the capability   to resist,   centralized   action by by regulatory bodies, by these massive nation states,   then your chain will have to bend to the will to them. Your project will have to bend to the will to them, and then all of a sudden you get you have all this KYC and stuff that gets added in,   which is exactly what we're trying to subvert in the first place. It's exactly what the value prop is in the first  

[01:54:11] Unknown:

place. Right? Absolutely. Amen to that.  

[01:54:19] Unknown:

So, Crow, someone is asking you   let me see. I got it right here. S m on on on YouTube is asking you, based on your threads, have we seen the supply shock yet?  

[01:54:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   Fun question.   So   for people who   haven't seen it, I put out like a a series of visualizations of of what,   the having does to the balance of supply and demand   and how that,   so that is the supply shock is is is when at the having, suddenly there's half as much supply. So it's a shock   to the balance of,   of the market.   And   from that point in time,   a supply shortage   accumulates   little by little every day,   every month   from that point on because in truth, there's   there's always so much Bitcoin available for sale on the marketplace   and   that's really what gets eaten into   as the   the net shortage of of new supply   causes,   the market to drain the available sale of Bitcoin   and turn that into, you know, people holding Bitcoin. So suddenly that the amount of available for sale Bitcoin shrinks over time over the ensuing months.  

And when I looked back at the in previous cycles and   and looked at sort of what the, HODL waves looked like   after that, after the havings.   It seems to be that in,   you know, the after 6 months is when   the shortage starts to   shift from being like   a theoretical one or when it's sort   of slightly happening   to suddenly being felt quite acutely,   and increasingly   acutely.   Specifically, because as the price starts to drift upwards   to,   to to unlock supply to,   you know,   because there's so much demand that it bids it up in in order to find more supply.   That it's around 6 months that that,   the the drifting up of supply caused of of price causes there to be more demand   for Bitcoin,   which is what we're seeing right now.  

So the, you know, the acute shortage   as a result as a result of the accumulation   of each day, each 10 minutes, there being a deficit of supply,   is starting now. And it's still in its early stages because we've got another we've got another year   or maybe 9 months.   But at least that before   this thing plays out to its mania stage that we've seen in the past.  

[01:57:22] Unknown:

Gigi, you have any thoughts here?  

[01:57:26] Unknown:

Yeah.   Not   not not too many.   I think   I I really like the visualizations in the threat, that really drives home   how   this dynamic kind of plays out.   I I would just also like to point out that   while while I see   the cycle pattern repeating, I just think nobody knows what Bitcoin's gonna do.   And,   so I think it's,   yeah,   it's   I I think some people are really,   speculating on certain numbers and,   just certain   repetitions of the past, so to speak. And,   I'm I'm not confident that,   it will   be, like,   exactly the same. It might be even more stupid.  

[01:58:19] Unknown:

Like, I It's not different? Is that what you're saying?  

[01:58:23] Unknown:

Not necessarily because, you know, like, it's I I like the calculations that, the humble fry Friar is doing all the time.   In terms of to keep a certain price level, you have to have a certain amount of,   you you it's it's basically also what what's visualized in the crow's threat that   you have to take the new supply off the market. So you have to eat up the new supply.   And,   Hasma Koch has great calculations how much DCA is necessary just to eat up the new supply. And that's like, the new new supply is tiny in terms of liquidity, in terms of what is actually We were eating that up already. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And but I   I just think that   the dynamics like, some things have changed.  

I I I'm not saying this is the last cycle. Like, again, I don't believe that, but Not the fucking last cycle.  

[01:59:12] Unknown:

I just repeated that just trigger you, Matt. I, like, oh, I, like, I opened Twitter for, like, a little bit to see if there was any comments on the Twitter main thread, and I saw Stefan was, like, 2 cycles and done. And then he just tweeted it out.   Such a fucking mean man.  

[01:59:28] Unknown:

But but I think, you know, what we see what I think is interesting is, for example, the glass node statistics that we see that   historically when the price shoots up,   the,   the amount that is sitting on exchanges shoots up as well. And this is just not happening this time, at least not not up to now. So yeah. The reverse the first time ever that the Yeah. The exchange balances has gone down, but I would caution people  

[01:59:50] Unknown:

that Glassnode   and the other one I think is Viewbase that is tracking it, they don't include the custodians.   So, like, when the Michael Sailors and the Scaramucci's and stuff are taking it off of Coinbase,   and they're sending it to, like, Anchorage and Prime Trust,  

[02:00:05] Unknown:

like,  

[02:00:06] Unknown:

is there's there's there's not much of there's not much of a difference there. I do think there's, like, millions of humble sat stackers out there that are that are pulling Bitcoin off exchanges into their own self custody, and I think that's the most bullish fundamental. But I think people need to be aware that, you know, like, that glass node chart for instance is,   it it's it's not counting these regulated custodians, which might as well, you know   I think the difference between   an Anchorage Wallet or a Prime Trust Wallet, you know, a top tier regulated custodian versus Coinbase,   the number one largest regulated exchange and custodian,   is is probably minor, right, in terms of US government  

[02:00:46] Unknown:

interference or whatnot. I agree. I agree. And it it it always depends on how you wanna look at it. Like, every   single point of failure is a single point of failure, and we can see, like,   just crazy things happening if if,   a large amount of coins are concentrated   with those single custodians.  

[02:01:06] Unknown:

Our boy Dreiman,   Dreiman, I don't know how to pronounce it. There's a special place in hell for you you and and people like Crow who pick   who pick names that are hard to pronounce intentionally because you got to pick the name.   He said for some fiat currencies, this will be the last cycle. I mean, by by that by that method, I mean, the last cycle was the first cycle.   That's true. I mean, he's right. He's right about that. That that's just some horrible shit coins. I think that When do you decide? When do you decide? At what threshold do you decide? These these things have been dumping forever. I put up USD SAT before.   I'm currently in, like,   a a nice cabin in the woods, and my Internet's not that good. So when I tried to put up USD SAT, the the page started glitching out. But,   you know, the dollar has been collapsing this whole fucking time, you know, since cycle 1,   since before Bitcoin existed. Like, at what point,   do you do you do that threshold? At what point does it stop being a meme? Like, there's gonna be massive corrections. Like, I I I would be really surprised.  

That'd be awesome, but I'd be really surprised if there wasn't some kind of massive corrections as this adoption cycle plays out.  

[02:02:11] Unknown:

I think Bitcoin took over another Fiat currency at the point where,   one Satoshi buys you multiple   instances of your Fiat chit coin. Like, if one Satoshi is, like, $3, then it it's it's game over. And we saw that with a bunch of currencies. It's like sad dollar domination instead of parity.   Yeah. Yeah. But I I think, you know, like, if if you if you,   can't break it down into   if if if the worth of 1 of your Fiat units goes below,   below 1 satoshi, then it's game over, I I would say. Then it's officially a bad shit coin.  

[02:02:49] Unknown:

But we could go lower.  

[02:02:52] Unknown:

They they can go to 0. Yeah. Of course. They they all goes that they will all go to 0. I think that's clear.  

[02:03:04] Unknown:

Crow, we've been kinda talking over. You got anything for us?  

[02:03:10] Unknown:

Not at the moment. Kinda reached   the point where I didn't have any thoughts.  

[02:03:16] Unknown:

Freak, this is,   this has been a great conversation.   Do you have any final questions for us?   I don't want I don't wanna push this   longer than than I'm having a great time, but I I don't wanna push this longer than quality allows.   One sat equals 1 cent. Yes. I agree.   1200 joules per sat is my price prediction.   I like that, but I actually kind of think   I think maybe just sat is the universal unit of, like, pretty much everything. It's like what the conversion rate is to sats.   Maybe you won't even need joules to measure energy if you could just measure it in sats output.   But maybe I'm just going too   too deep now.  



[02:04:05] Unknown:

Would you buy, would you buy a   a   stranded natural gas well   and set up a Hash Hut thing?  

[02:04:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think the the key to mining that people don't realize in the next generation of mining is going to be basically mining at basically   basically at breakeven or below, slightly below, and the the benefit you get is you get a steady supply of k y c free coins. And I think I think really   the reason we haven't seen it is because it's it's hard to get large amounts of ASICs. And ASICs,   they they they their life cycles don't last as long as as they probably should. They their life cycles are increasing in terms of buying an ASIC until it goes outdated.   But I think, ultimately, the future of Bitcoin mining is   these small scale   mining ops,   that are that are are are willing to sustain a loss. Like, I would be happy to sustain,   like, a 20%,   loss on on   on regulated market price,   to get to get, like, a steady stream of KYC free sats.  



[02:05:11] Unknown:

Wow. 20%. That is a high premium.  

[02:05:14] Unknown:

You wouldn't you wouldn't pay you wouldn't pay 20% for, like, a, like, a secret bag?   Like, a constant secret bag that just was, like, filling up?  

[02:05:24] Unknown:

But but you are towards the extreme on, in terms of value valuing that. And I'm I frequently when I listen to to your stuff, I'm always, like, But let's talk about what 20% is right now. Right? That that's like paying 39,000 a coin for KYC free stats. Right?   Yeah. And maybe That's not bad. That that's not a bad price, is it? Like, we're gonna go substantially higher than that. That's true. That's not yeah. It depends on what time frame you're you're looking at. It's a deal   a year from now.  

[02:06:01] Unknown:

I'm muted. This is a good question.   Can we talk about bisque and counterparty risk? How can I ensure that the person selling it to me doesn't know who I am and how much I own? How can I ensure they're not selling me stolen KYC coins?   So you can't,   the the the biggest risk of bisque the biggest,   not risk,   the the biggest pain point of bisque   is the fiat side. And this is why Bitcoin's dope. Right? Like,   fiat is a pain in the ass to interact with, and it's not great for privacy.   So, obviously, if you're sending a bank transfer to someone,   it's gonna have whatever traits that bank transfer option you have depending on where you live in the world. Some people have better options, you know, in America.  

People have, like, Zelle, I think, in in in the in in in Japan. They have better systems in place,   that their fiat payments are better.   But that will always be the pain point.   You can also, on Bisc, use a person to person cash, which is obviously will always be better for privacy.   And I think they have, like, Amazon gift cards and stuff that you could technically use. It it'll always be a pain point. The fee outside is a pain point. Why we Bitcoin?   You know, you don't have that pain point once you move to Bitcoin.   As as for the the second part, I mean,   you know, that this isn't this is an issue with Bitcoin fungibility in general. Right? And this is why people should be using CoinJoin. This is why, like, the historical path of of of where Bitcoin's been shouldn't matter.  

And and it's just it's something that that that is not unique to Bitcoin. And, you know, if if what if you get cash, like, how do you know where that cash came from?   So you so you need to,   this is why it's super important that even people that use non KYC options also learn how to use Bitcoin more privately and and and learn these tools.   What do you guys think?  

[02:07:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. I I think you're you were on point with all of those things. Just keep in mind that,   meeting someone in MeetSpace has its own set of risks. So,   just be aware of that even though in terms of privacy, it might be the best option. Right. We just had a guy in Hong Kong who,  

[02:08:12] Unknown:

did, like, a face to face cash deal. And Yeah. So,  

[02:08:17] Unknown:

I just wanted to point it out, because I think not everyone thinks,   adversarially.   And so just keep that in mind that   you have to be confident comfortable with doing that. And,   yeah. I mean, it it it really depends on how you wanna use Bisq. If you haven't checked it out yet, I highly recommend you do. It's it's really easy to use, I I would say. Like, if you're if if you if you're good with, like, clicking through UIs, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. And as Matt said,   the biggest pain point is your your,   you interacting with the field system. And,   in terms of other privacy side, I think a good way to think about CoinJoin in general is just like it it think think about it in a way just like you would clear your browser history, for example. And the problem is that everyone has access to your browser history.  

So   you you you you kind of have a way to to clear the history,   of of the coins you use. And if you,   yeah, if you don't reuse addresses, which you should never do, and if you,   take care of your UTXO's and and kind of   learn about   the best practices   in Bitcoin privacy,   then you should be good on the Bitcoin side when interacting with someone else in Bisq.   Someone asked what an XPub is. I I I I would mark it as a troll.   I'm not Peter McCormick. I've if you wanna know what what an ex pub is, just suffer through,   Matt's and and Pete's conversation. Don't. Don't.  



[02:09:55] Unknown:

Gigi, actually, he he's, you know, he's understating himself as he usually does, has a whole post on what an x pub is.   I guess where is that? Is that on the swan blog, Gigi? Yeah. It's on the swan blog. Yeah.  

[02:10:08] Unknown:

I also wrote a tool where you can play around with your xPub if you want to. It's you can you can even if you're paranoid, you can look through the whole source code and disconnect from the Internet and just use your xPub.   As Matt said,   XPub is basically best understood as your few key, so you cannot   send any coins, but you can see the whole wallet. So you can see what's going on. And the XPEL is used it's it's like it's like a parent key. It's like a a master key that can use,   more addresses. And it's it's all of it is new nuanced. So,   it's   there are different types of xPubs. And,   what's   what an xPub basically is is   certain kind of information that lets you build up a hierarchy of addresses. And while it's used that to have just one secret that they need to take care of, so to speak.  

And   then those use that so that they can generate   receiving addresses   easily without,   giving away too much secret information.   And services use XPub sometimes. So,   it's it's in a way also   you know, it's a hack for best practice.   You don't want to reuse addresses,   and you so so you force users to hand over an ex pub so that you on your side,   you become a trusted third party and you generate a new address for every transfer. And so someone else that is spying on the Bitcoin blockchain cannot see,   how much you are saving, for example. So I hope that somewhat makes sense. Go read the blog   post. Again,   4th glass of whiskey now. So if that doesn't make sense, I apologize. It's very late where I'm at.  



[02:11:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I'd first of all, we appreciate your time, Gigi. I mean, the the idea is, Randy McMillan, is is that you share the expoB with Swan, and you're you're trusting them with that privacy.   They Gigi designed the tool so that they don't actually receive the XPub. They just receive the generated addresses, and you can actually verify it because it's a it's a open source tool. It's a free open source tool.   But most people can't read code, so you should probably just, when you interact with that feature, you should just have a dedicated wallet. Best practice is to have a dedicated wallet,   that is like your Swan wallet. Right? And you just assume that every transaction in that wallet,   Swan can see. And someone else asked,   which this ties into Hakob   or Yaacob, I guess. I don't know how to pronounce your name. I apologize. Asked if CoinJoin truly clears the UTXO history, and, no, it doesn't. It's very obvious that you did a CoinJoin.  

But if you if you if you used a good implementation   and you did it without making any mistakes,   difficult to to backtrack the hand joint happened.   So it kind of creates, like, a a a base slate. It, like, wipes the slate clean,   is the way I view it. It creates like a a a neutral property. It's just a normal Bitcoin transaction with no taint.   Yeah. The only taint being that CoinJoin has happened. But every other Bitcoin transaction has had the history of it ever till the beginning.  

[02:13:12] Unknown:

I I I would encourage everyone to look a little bit deeper into that topic and try to truly understand it because it's very enlightening in in the way that Bitcoin operates. Because the way that chain surveillance companies make sense of the transaction history is that they the only thing that they have is heuristics. They can only look at certain kinds of transactions and assume   who the parties involved where. And coin joints just break those kind of heuristics, and they are able to do that. Like, you you can't really track Bitcoin even though everything is public, but just the nature of the protocol is such that every single transaction is a smelting process. So you have multiple inputs and multiple outputs, and you can think of it as just gold coins going in somewhere and they are smelted and they're   re like, they they reappear at the end of the transaction as new coins in in the correct denomination.  

And that's how Bitcoin works basically. And so most   transactions   have   a regular footprint, so to speak, or or you you can you can see that this is just like a regular transaction, like one person inter interacting with another one or like it has like,   a certain number of inputs, a certain number of outputs, and so on. And so surveillance companies assume that this was   a regular transaction, and this is like the receiving address, and this is the change address, and the party that initiated the transaction is still in charge of the change address and so on. And so you can build up a chain and you can kind of   with a high   with with a high confidence   say that,   here we have an entity that was in control of these coins and this is how the coins moved. And so you can you can see that in the blockchain. But keep in mind that those are all just heuristics and coin chains are certain kinds of transactions.  

Like that. It's just a a very peculiar   transaction type,   and they're just, collaborative transactions of multiple parties. And this breaks the,   the common heuristics that most   chain analysis firms use because you cannot assume anymore that it was one person that did that, and then you're just lost. You cannot make sense of the transaction graph anymore.  

[02:15:19] Unknown:

It's it's it's purely a Bitcoin transaction that applies best practices that we know right now today.   And and it it it would be like to say not to use CoinJoin would be like to say that, like, we should just use Bitcoin way that that version 1,   use Bitcoin.  

[02:15:36] Unknown:

I I think you were going to say to say to not to use tranche CoinJoin is just use HTTP instead of HTTPS because we we have the same thing kind of in the Internet. And now it's just HTTPS and SSL and everything is like the standard. And if your browser screams at you, if the connection is not encrypted and I think we will see the same thing in Bitcoin. It it will just take time. And with the, protocol upgrades that are in the pipeline,   we won't have   to talk about   conjoined in that kind of depth anymore. I think in, like, I think in, like, 5 years time, it it we will have to deal with different topics, but not with that anymore that much.  

[02:16:11] Unknown:

I I think,   on a completely separate topic,   windshield time said everyone is getting a girlfriend LOL, which is like a growing meme.   I just in in all seriousness, like, you should absolutely, by all means, have a girlfriend, but   don't don't commit to her unless she goes through at least one bear cycle.   Preferably for preferably 2 bear cycles. You gotta you gotta test her out. You can't,   you can't you can't dedicate dedicate yourself to someone in in just one full cycle.  

[02:16:42] Unknown:

I like that wisdom.   With the dating wisdom from,   Bitcoiners   holding through volatility.  

[02:16:50] Unknown:

I mean, I think it if if she can if she can go through a bear market,   with a Bitcoiner, I mean,   is there is there any more dedication than that? Like, that's, like, some pretty massive Bitcoin or leverage right  

[02:17:03] Unknown:

there. I I was about to say that the true unsung heroes are   the   the wives and girlfriends   behind the Bitcoiners.   And I'm not saying that all the kind of some may love, but I still think that most are. And it's,   yeah. So I can speak from personal experience. It's   the the ride was very, very wild. And I you love to see it that   Bitcoiners tend to kind of you know, I think it's a low price time preference thing as well.   Bitcoiners tend to marry and make kids and stuff like that. And, you just love to see it, you know, like, we we need more of that.  

[02:17:39] Unknown:

I've been, I've been   trying out a new   tactic with,   with my friends who,   are   very much on the sideline or on the fence about, about Bitcoin. So,   if they're women,   I've been   prodding with this idea of   of this is how   gender inequity,   perpetuates   Because, you know, look around and look who are the people leaning into the risk   of of being early on Bitcoin.   And are you gonna let the are you gonna let the men have all the   reap all the rewards of that risk,   which has been a bit of   a touchy conversation to have with with some some of my NBA friends, you know,   and very   left leaning MBA culture.  

That's a very provocative language but   rather effective. So I encourage people to to try some variant of that and see how it goes with, the women in your life who who are risk averse to Bitcoin still.  

[02:18:48] Unknown:

So what what you're saying is that all the girls should put their boobs on the table and start stacking? That's what you're saying?  

[02:18:56] Unknown:

In so many words, Gigi.  

[02:18:59] Unknown:

I love it.   I love both of you guys. The,   so Crip Loco asked,   what happened to LocalBitcoins? LocalBitcoins added KYC. Like, this is the problem. Like, if you have a centralized party, they're gonna add it.   He's asking, you know, what what why is there another company that's not providing an in person solution for buying Bitcoin? I think this is something that just long term   works itself out. Like, you you just   and we've seen this with the drug war. Like, you know people in your town or your area that can get you, you know, drugs for cash, and there there's gonna be this, like, p to p market for it that just grassroots   emerges in different places. And and if if you try and do a top down approach, you're always gonna get hit by regulators. You're always gonna get wrecked by regulators. And long term,   I mean, when we end in in this, like, circular economy type of situation,   you know, people aren't gonna be buying Bitcoin. They're gonna be earning it. People aren't gonna be selling it. They're gonna be spending it, and you won't even need this process of of trying to change shitty money to   to good money.  



[02:20:01] Unknown:

Yeah. So what what what Matt is trying to say is just find your local orange pill dealer and hit him up. And just if you have a stack, then maybe it's it's it's time for you to become 1. I don't know. I like that idea kind of like, I I I sold,   KYC   free Bitcoin from time to time just to onboard people. I think it's a it's a nice way to to just,   show someone how this works and get the feet wet. But it's it's also, you know, like, it most of the time, it doesn't take and people just   lose their wallets or something. So,   take that with a grain of salt. But I think I think all of those things will emerge, and we we we see that over and over and over again. And,   if the need is strong enough, then those kind of solutions will pop up. And people are very,   like,   smart with coming up   with solutions to those kind of problems, and I think we will just see new kind of things emerge. And, yeah, who who knows what's what's gonna happen in the next 2 or 3 years? I I I'm very bullish on   all kinds of   all kinds of,   non central ways to interact with Bitcoin and acquire Bitcoin and stuff like that.  



[02:21:17] Unknown:

Goji is asking, is it best to have a dedicated laptop computer to use with Cold Guard? Yes.   It's always better to have a dedicated computer.   The main risk is privacy, but you also have a little bit of funds risk you just want. It's just better to use a dedicated computer   if you can. Slowly level up your your your setup. My the guide I've been been shelling of my own is is we run bitcoin.com, and what's nice there is you can start   with maybe not a dedicated computer, and you can slowly upgrade yourself,   and you can upgrade yourself to multisig.  

So   it's been about 2 hours and 20 minutes.   My lady, who is a very dedicated Bitcoiner,   is probably a little bit frustrated with me. We're in a nice cabin in the woods,   and I it's time for me to have dinner with her and appreciate her.   I wanna say a big thank you to all the freaks who who who joined us for the livestream.   This show is about you guys.   The whole idea of this show is and what I love about it is that you all participate and you get to ask questions, and and we get to riff off those questions.   So without you, the show is nothing. So thank you for attending.  

Thank you for all the listeners who are listening to this after the fact.   We will have another show,   next week, same time. I I think I like this time better. Tell me if you don't like this time better. This is 22100   UTC, 5 PM EST.   I wanna do a a a big thanks to to Croesus BTC for joining us, our friend or Gigi for joining us. You can find them both on Twitter   at   their respective handles.   I'm I'm showing them on the screen right now. Dergigi is at   dergigi,   and cruisesbtc   is   atcro   esus_btc.   Thank you all for joining.   Stay humble, and stack sets.  



[02:23:11] Unknown:

Thanks for having us, Matt.  

[02:23:13] Unknown:

Yeah. Thanks for having us. That was great.  

[02:23:27] Unknown:

Hey,   moo.   It's funny how time just flies.   Yesterday,   we were just kids   hanging in the sky,   staying up all night.   Hey.   Hey.   Do you ever get a tear in your eye?   When you think about the time that God came down, I couldn't help myself.   I had to shine so bright.   I remember   that newborn baby   and the wise men that traveled   so far.   That's when I knew I was made for a reason.   I feel like the luckiest   star.   Hey. Hey. It's   funny how things have changed.   I wish that they could see the things we've seen before the colored lights   and the Christmas   tree.  

Hey.   Hey. So many are   I feel like a lucky   day start.   Hey.   Hey.   All   is   bright.   I remember   that newborn   baby   I feel like the lucky is star.   Hey.  

[02:26:43] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. We'll see you next week.