Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 0.2.7

BLOCK: 688460

PRICE: 3050 sats per dollar

TOPICS: enjoying a bitcoin tuesday without odell

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[00:00:35] Unknown:

Alright.   What's up, freaks?  

[00:00:43] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday.   Damn. I thought I had a quirk pop.   It's a screw off right here. It's a Yamazaki single malt.   It's okay.   This is Evan Kaludis with y'all.   Bring you   the officially   unofficial   sanctioned but unsanctioned.   Sydel Dispatch.   The show about actionable   Bitcoin discussion. This is episode 26   with an asterisk.   Say it's an asterisk because we're making some changes around here.   Maybe wondering.   I've got some pretty good options. Where's Matt O'Dell?   Where's that guy? I miss him.   And,   to be truthful, I don't know. That's got some pretty good OPSEC.   You know, he may have been detained at a border   or who knows what. Just trying to save face. Violating money transmitter laws, stirring dissent, maybe.  

Or he might just actually be on vacation like you said, or   he's trying to save face. I don't know.   But I'm pretty sure he did not defect to Monero like we all suspected he would,   by this point.   But, anyway,   really excited to chat with y'all today. I just had an itch to just chat with all the freaks on this Bitcoin Tuesday in lieu   of an actual episode. So really happy to talk with y'all,   in this sort of new format. Right?   I wanna give a shout out to start off to Jessica.   He's in here, I hope,   recording the session.   Hopefully, we could get it out on   the traditional dispatch mediums.  

Jessica runs an awesome website called Ambose.   It's a lightning graph explorer.   They've got some great visuals. He's working with Tony from,   ThunderHub on that. So go check it out if you get a chance. That's amboss.space   ambossspace.   And, yeah, I also gotta give a shout out to our new sponsors   making some other changes on the show.   We're introducing mid roll ads, so, you know, stay tuned for the mid roll advertisements.   I've got some pretty good sponsors.   Bisc, of course, you know, everyone loves Bisc.   You know, great decentralized trade platform.   We also got some gems of partners in BlockFi,   JPMorgan,   DHS. So listen to their ad roll reads,   middle of the show, so that should be fun.  

And, Yeah. This is gonna be a much different dispatch than usual.   As you guys obviously know, we're on Twitter Spaces today, so we're gonna have a bunch of guests on, probably rotating in and out.   I put in a lot of invites out today. So   I invited Rodolfo.   I invited Open Arms,   Kai Kawamoto,   invited Pedro, the real Pedro, not phony Pedro,   Jack Dorsey.   Doubt he'll jump in, but who knows? And, Klaus Schwab from the World Economic Forum. I know he's a fan of the show. He might pop in.   But, anyway, there's no fixed topic for today, so we're gonna just see where the guests   want to up and take it. Just hoping we riff for about   an hour,   see what everyone's up to, and then we'll open it up to the larger audience,   do some q and a or   just see where things go.  

So, without further ado, let's bring on some guests to the stage.   Start with Chaz. Chaz from Lightning Junky's.  

[00:04:22] Unknown:

Shit talking moment here for you.  

[00:04:25] Unknown:

We we gotta get you a setup. Chaz, you with us today?  

[00:04:29] Unknown:

Out loud and having your phone With you.   One shit talking moment here for you.   We we gotta get you a setup where you're not just playing music   out loud and having your phone pick it up. It sounded I know it's awful. Right? But  

[00:04:44] Unknown:

I I think that we'll get past the copyright services.   No promises there. It sounds like   great. This is fun.   Yeah. No no visual component, unfortunately,   on Twitter spaces. So we're gonna have to read off,   you know, the prices and all our fun graphs that we usually have just over there.   So, I'm sure everyone just noticing how, we've got a nice little dip going on today.   Woke up, and I saw the price was at about, what, something like 29,000.   So let's check-in on the prices to kick things off with.   We've got   this listing the index price at 32,496.  

And,   let's see what the exchanges   have it at.  

[00:05:40] Unknown:

You  

[00:05:42] Unknown:

want a crypto watch? Check out what BTCUSD   for Kraken is.   We are at 32,448.   So, yeah, nice little dip.   I hope you guys were able to snag around 29 if you were, like to do that kind of trading.   But, yeah, it's just been complete pandemonium   as far as,   you know, the normies' perceptions of things. People saying, oh, man.   Price has gone and crashed 50% in the last 2 months. What are you guys doing over there?   Yeah. It's just like moments like this in the cycle   that really, really test how,   you know, how determined you are, how dedicated   your real will. And, I I think   at times like this, we end up seeing some pretty crazy behavior by,   you know, some otherwise,   reputable people in   space. Maybe they were over leveraged,   lost some money.  

Now they start promoting some questionable products in the space.   It's quite sad, actually.   But,   you know, at least we get to see who's in it for the technology.   So,   it's it's,   always fun to go through these dips. But hey. I don't know about you guys, but I still think we're gonna crack an all time high again this year. So let's see how it pans out between,   you know, previous cycles and where we've been,   you know, the economic climate,   with inflation,   Joe Biden's   prepping prepping another round of stimmy checks for   for families in the United States.  

You know, Bitcoin is really our safe haven in in the midst of all this other uncertainty that's out in the world.   So god bless it even if it does happen   to tumble down 50%   in the middle of a good old rally.  

[00:07:58] Unknown:

I honestly think that the price   isn't that relevant. It's probably the the boringest thing going on right now.   I think all the things happening on on lightning are far more interesting than worrying about number go up, down, sideways, wherever. It doesn't I don't it hasn't really changed much for me.  

[00:08:20] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't really affect you unless you're,   you're you're trying to sell, which I know bunch of us here are just hanging on for dear life. I see a bunch of hodlers in the chat down here. So,   yeah. I mean, the fundamentals of Bitcoin haven't changed. If anything, they've gotten stronger.   I mean, we've got 2   humongous pieces of news that have come out this past month. Right?   We've got Taproot activated, which means we're gonna have,   act well, it's got it's locked in, and it's gonna be activated in November. But, you know, it's it's guaranteed now.   And, you know, we also have small nation states   adopting it and passing legal tender laws for it. So   big picture. How can you be bearish?  

So, we we also have, Rodolfo. Rodolfo joined us. Really happy to see how you're doing today at BK.  

[00:09:10] Unknown:

Good.   I, I kinda got the times twisted.  

[00:09:15] Unknown:

Yeah. We all got our times twisted a little bit, but I'm glad, you know, we got a pretty good showing today. And I'm happy to have you join us today. So what's what's going on?   We we missed you in Miami.  

[00:09:28] Unknown:

I know, dude. I am in the   in the Canada,   gulag,   but   but I'm north and remote.   So, like, COVID,   idiocity doesn't exist here.  

[00:09:42] Unknown:

That's good.  

[00:09:45] Unknown:

Neither do people.   It's great.  

[00:09:52] Unknown:

Yeah. I hear you guys are, listening restrictions a bit. We're talking to who was it?   Ben Sessions. He was talking about having to, like, quarantine or whatever. West is and the west is a bit better.  

[00:10:04] Unknown:

The the problem is, like, Ontario is still quite bad when you come back.   Like, you have to quarantine for 2 weeks in in, like, at home,   but you might have to do a hotel thing when you come in. It's like a bunch of bullshit.  

[00:10:21] Unknown:

Yeah. That sucks. Yeah.   Yeah. Hopefully, things liberalize, but, yeah. Who knows in this crazy mixed up world?   You know?   The control freaks, they're everywhere.   You really can't avoid them. Yeah. That's right.   Yeah. Saw that video today that was going around on Bitcoin Twitter with,   the guy proposing   we, do bioengineering   to make people  

[00:10:44] Unknown:

allergic to steak. Like Just time takes Wow. You know? Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know what? Like, I I thankfully,   people who think like that don't reproduce.   So,   like, just time takes care of it.  

[00:10:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. That's the one upside.   You know, there where's that other guy that's a big critic of BTC on Twitter? He's like There is a tick. There is a tick disease that makes you allergic to red meat. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about is, like, the the womb star tick or something. Yeah. What a piece of shit.   Yeah. So.   Oh, man.   So we also had, open arms. I I said he got an invite. Looks like he He just showed up.   I think he had some connection problems. So Oh, okay. So I think that's the reason Jack Dorsey is not coming today because he would get an earful about me complaining about how spaces doesn't work and crashes your phone. You can't connect.   But, you know, it it just otherwise makes for a pretty awesome experience, all things considered. I know a lot of people are going pretty hard on, Clubhouse this, this year.  



[00:11:51] Unknown:

I'm gonna I'm gonna have to say something.   So Taproot is not guaranteed yet   at all   until the miners start actually mining blocks and enforcing Taproot in, like,   very reasonable amounts of hash rate,   it's still sort of, like   you know, there's a very good chance   that they come through, the promise,   but   speedy trial has no teeth. Right?   Don't don't trust her. So, you're expecting some shenanigans to come up this year? No. No. Not really. I mean but, you know, it's rough consensus. Right? Don't don't trust, verify. So until I see   mind blocks   over, say, 80 to 90% of the hash rate,   I wouldn't put any money on it.  



[00:12:45] Unknown:

Well, to that, I say I'm I'm glad Matt paid me out on the 3rd period lock in.   So we got that going for us at least.   Now what would you say to users that are like, no way, man. I upgraded my node to 0 point   21.1   or whatever,   and, my my node is validating,  

[00:13:07] Unknown:

no. It doesn't matter. Your your node for for soft forks like this,   it's it doesn't matter   as much as you think it does because   the enforcing   of soft forks,   like, they they really   lock in,   with, with,  

[00:13:26] Unknown:

locked through, that would have been different. It's tricky.  

[00:13:30] Unknown:

Now if we had the miners,   lock in,   with, with,   lot true, that would have been different.   But,   yeah.   So, like, it's it's pretty like, it it's looking good, but, like, I I'll just, like, sort of, like, caution people that, like because of the nature of how Bitcoin consensus work and   and also the the, like,   the game theory on on, like, all these actors,   you know, nothing is guaranteed until it's in the blocks. Right?  

[00:14:03] Unknown:

Yeah. That's for sure.   So, yeah, I remain, cautiously optimistic.   Let's see what will happen from here. But,   yeah, I mean, there's plenty of rooms for shenanigans. Like,   we really won't know for sure until   it's November and and we have it. And Yeah. You know, the transactions are being processed.   And,   you know, we're we're using transactions   that are using Taproot. So, I guess not even implementations  

[00:14:35] Unknown:

yet. Right? So it's it's like, so it's  

[00:14:37] Unknown:

okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's all still coming together. So a lot of things still up in the air. I I saw that maybe,   the address type had been settled upon, but there's still a lot of other things that are up in the air. So we'll see how it shakes out. I I I can't I I've been sort of, like, a bit distant for the last  

[00:14:55] Unknown:

month, month and a half.   Are they gonna use a Segwit V2 addresses?  

[00:15:03] Unknown:

I'm not sure. I think it's gonna be, they're gonna be, like, b c one q or something is the the last thing I saw. Yeah. So, it's it's gonna look like Segwit native Segwit, but, you know, one letter up. So, yeah, I'm sure that won't be confusing.   Yes. It's it's gonna be interesting to see as the different wallets   and exchanges.   I'll try to make sense of it.   And, you know, ultimately, adoption depends on   on them. I mean, look, this year, we just saw Segwit get adopted by,   like, Blockchain.com   after, what, 4 years.   So,  

[00:15:41] Unknown:

do they have a hierarchical deterministic,   addresses yet? BIP 32?  

[00:15:48] Unknown:

I'm not sure. I have not used   blockchain.com,   my friend. You know you know there's a couple better wallets out on the market now. So, you know, I haven't had Really?   There are a few. I mean,   you know, that that space has definitely made some strides at least.   So, Rodolfo, I got a question from a freak in my DMs.   Have you heard of any Canadian Internet news today, something about some sort of censorship bill being passed? Oh, yeah. The the  

[00:16:22] Unknown:

Kapo san,   he,   he he he shoved through this bill,   and, of course, the the commie,   slash union party voted with them and so did the greens.   So   they, it it's essentially now   well, once it's made it into law and stuff,   they will be able to   censor   private accounts where they couldn't before.   Right?   Yeah. And they're they're saying that it's only for, like, big accounts and things like that that are acting as if they're news networks and stuff. It's all bullshit. Right? It's saying Like, on social media?   Yeah. Yeah. So they are gonna have the powers to, like, censor my Twitter if they wanted to.  

[00:17:13] Unknown:

Yeah. You better watch   out. He's off on the cash flow jokes,   Right.  

[00:17:20] Unknown:

Man. Listen. This is the kind of bill that that backs backfires. Right? It's almost, like,   fun that they're trying to do something stupid like this, you know, because   censoring the Internet always works. Right?  

[00:17:33] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's it's built to route around roadblocks.   Let's see how things shake up. But, you know, we got this big problem of centralization on these big platforms,   you know, just like the one we're talking on right now.   That's it. If Dorsey or one of his shareholders doesn't like something we're saying, like, Bitcoin Tuesday is not existing on Twitter Spaces anymore. So I mean, come on. Give the guy a little bit more cred. But,  

[00:17:58] Unknown:

you know,   like, private platforms are entitled to run it however they want. Right? I'm I'm Oh, yes. Certainly. Deliver that.  

[00:18:08] Unknown:

But but in a geopolitical   context, they have they're subject to so much pressure, not only just from their shareholders, but from other parties and governments. It's it's really a shit show, and that's why it's important to have, like, these decentralized platforms. Like, you ran Bitcoin Hackers on, Yeah.   On Mastodon, which is a federated network. Really cool. And, it's also why we champion stuff like Blue Sky that they're trying to work on that Twitter, make it decentralized. I think they're making, like, an honest effort at that. What what sucks in networks social networks is they're, like  

[00:18:41] Unknown:

like, half the fun is having   the people who are not part of your in group   partaking in conversations. Right? So, like, you know, dunking on Rubini. Right? He's not gonna come up with the hackers.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, it it's hard to, like   the public square needs to be public. Right? And you and you want everybody else in it too even if you don't like them.   So it it's not an easy problem to solve. It's not just the technology itself. It's like the the social sort of connections there.  

[00:19:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's one thing to make a network,   decentralized, but then it's another to, a, make it usable. I mean, I bet we could both speak to our challenges building Bitcoin products. Right? But also having a community come to it, and that'd be like   the,   the   town square where people have their discussions. So,   there yeah. There's a lot of challenges. Even you nail it technologically,   the UX and the social angles are are immensely difficult problems. So Yeah. We're down there. Right? Like,  

[00:19:44] Unknown:

most people,   like,   as it seems to, they want censorship. Right? They want   a lot of moderation control. They want all this crap. Like, governments in a way are   I I can't remember who said it, but, like, you know, most people don't want freedom. They just want a better sell. Right?  

[00:20:08] Unknown:

Yeah. They want better amenities in the sell. Right? That's right. Yeah.   So while while we still have you here, Rodolfo,   any updates on   Canadian   vaccine passports?  

[00:20:21] Unknown:

So what I think they're gonna do is is sort of like a war of attrition. Right?   They're they're not gonna do, like,   like, an official passport per se.   But so far, as I understand, is that they created an app   that, like,   if you want to to travel without restrictions, you have to upload your your vaccine receipt, essentially. Right?   Gotcha. And and then you don't have to quarantine. You don't have to do this. You don't have to do that. Right?   But,   and I also think that countries   where Canada,   can sort of swing their dick around, they would just say you can't, like, get visas to come to Canada without vaccine. But then countries like that Canada is on the the weak side, right, they will totally sort of let them through without vaccines. They're just gonna have to probably quarantine.   So they're just gonna try to, like, through attrition, make most people vaccinate. It's   funny that Canada doesn't have enough vaccines   to do it.  

So it's kind of like   a a tricky one for them to to to sort it out.  

[00:21:32] Unknown:

Now if I wanna visit personally,   do I have to I have to show proof of vaccination, and do I have to quarantine?   Say I'm coming from,   from New York. So US.  

[00:21:43] Unknown:

So I don't think,   yeah, you should be able to come because I think they opened the borders already.   But   if you don't want to quarantine,   with   partner countries or whatever the fuck, if you show your vaccine   stamps,   you don't have to quarantine. But then   if you don't have   vaccine or or stamps or whatever,   then you do have to quarantine.   I think they're they're getting rid of the gulag soon, which was some   rented hotels that were, like, absolute,   like, shit,   where people had to go for 2, 3 days and do 50 tests or whatever.   And now I think what's gonna happen is if you're a Canadian   resident, when you come back and you don't have vaccines, you have to stay home for 2 weeks.  



[00:22:37] Unknown:

Gotcha. Okay.  

[00:22:39] Unknown:

That makes a lot of sense. But you should be able to come now.  

[00:22:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I've been meaning to visit, so   let you know when I'm in that neck of the woods.   You know, I also bumped into that tikinis guy. I forget his name. He's in Miami.   Every every time I saw him, I saw him bumped into him, like, 3 or 4 times. I'm like, oh, man. I gotta go to Canada and get some of this food.   So, yeah. I'll let you know, my friend, when I make it up there. May maybe you take me hunting and you're part of the wilderness.  

[00:23:08] Unknown:

That's right.  

[00:23:10] Unknown:

Alright. So,  

[00:23:11] Unknown:

would you mind if I jumped in here really asked and asked NVK a question?  

[00:23:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Go for it, Jeff.  

[00:23:19] Unknown:

So I know this isn't lightning Friday, but,   what's your what's your current status on lightning network hardware, man?  

[00:23:30] Unknown:

So so Lightning,   has some inherent   issues around hardware   because   Lightning requires statefulness.   Right?   Like chain state.   So it's very hard to make air gap   solutions   state.   Right?   So,   so it it's just like so it starts from that premise. Right? Okay. Fine. So you can connect the code card to the computer and use it via USB.   I   I was under the impression that some people have open and closed channels using Electrum,   with a cold card as the signer.   I haven't tried it myself,   but I would start there.   And then   if somebody can make   a PSBT,   sort of glue   program   or or   some, some PR on Electrum or whatever,   we should be able to sign it.  

Right? The the biggest bottleneck is this.   We don't do stuff   that is not standard,   period. If it's not a bit, we're not gonna probably support it,   because we want things to be a bit more future proof. Right? We don't wanna create our own way of signing lightning or whatever.   So   we use PSBT   as the sole way of getting stuff in and out of cold card for signature.   So if somebody   makes   a opening or closing channel,   PSBT   file for lack of,   explanation here, Depas,   let's,   that that should be signable   because it is a standard Bitcoin transaction. Right? It's just multisync transaction.   And then going forward, though,   we do support Libsack. Right? So,   we are using the the Libsack, the k one. Right? So so the the the master of that,   of that, Lib.  

And then,   we just we're just too swamped to to to mess around,   but, people interested in messing around, they could try to load   the the z,   the z k one, which is the experimental   Libsack,   and that one can do   all the things that people want to do with the coming features. Right? So all the top of it stuff, all the snore stuff, and all all those things. Sweet.   But, again, it it needs to be PSBT   route.  

[00:26:11] Unknown:

Do you see yourself doing,   you know, more lightning stuff as time goes on just by, like, a byproduct of, you know, things improving and things like that?  

[00:26:24] Unknown:

Statefulness   and I mean so I I like,   Lightning is super cool. Right?   I think,   personally, the future of Lightning,   especially because of its inherent,   statefulness   and   lower   amount,   actual value amount transaction ness,   it's more of like a phone wallet fit   or or a server sort of side fit. Right?   I think that's more where things will go.   I think   the large majority   of lightning   stuff for consumers will be custodial or semi custodial   because the aside from privacy considerations,   the risk of financial loss is much smaller. Right?   The   you don't have to be concerned about, like, losing $10.  

So   if you have,   say, a year or 2 from now,   say,   like, a a semi custodial lightning wallet on your phone solves some of the privacy considerations or or improves the privacy considerations,   it's gonna be hard to compete with that,   for the average consumer or even the more advanced consumer.   Even I use,   custodial lightning wallets on the phone.   I just like, it's just it's just too much. Like, there's a lot of stuff happening in Bitcoin.   We focus more on large   money   being stored by,   sort of self custody. Right? So people that wanna hold their own Bitcoin.   How that fits into lightning, it's tricky   because it's a whole other universe of of, like, things for you to develop,   and we don't wanna spread ourselves too thin. We really wanna focus on securing your stats,   and then you move your stats from, cold card into your lightning wallet, whatever that is.  

And and if Coldcard   can sign,   Lightning for closing and opening channels, especially on the server side with the CK bunker,   then then that's great.   But, like, doing cold card for consumers   to sign, l n, I I just I don't see the point.  

[00:28:49] Unknown:

Can I jump in here very quickly, Harry? There we go. We got open Noms with us. We've overcome some technical difficulties. What's going on, Noms? Yep.  

[00:28:58] Unknown:

Yes. Very good. Thanks. I've managed to be up on my Kinix OS phone, which is an achievement. It just froze out. I mean, it closed the app the last time I've switched the mic microphone on, but now it's working. So   yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi, Ivan, NVK,   Charles, everyone.   Just a fair   I found this,   obviously, the call card PSBD function. I think and and I just would like to point out that there is there's been a big improvement in the new LND release, the 0 13,   which makes you able to import external Xbox   into the orchard part of the l and d   wallet,   which could be a cold card. Right?  

So yeah.  

[00:29:46] Unknown:

It could be a lot it could be a lot of things. It could be your samurai mixes maybe. It could be a joy market. Right?  

[00:29:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I yes. I had a I had a couple of,   ideas about this already. And the the big thing is that it's it's used as a PSBD format, so it's not something new. Obviously, for, like, samurai,   you would need to,   convert it to a raw transaction, but that's not difficult. It can be done with, like, or Electrum or or or or, you know, somewhere I might just at some point might be able to sign PSBPs as well. But in any case, you know, that that account which you import can be multi sig or can be, like, total cold storage. And you can construct PSBT   with LND,   which I'm sure we will see   you,   you graphical interfaces for, like, you know, or RTL or whatever boss   in the command line. And you will be able to pass that on either,   you know, the usual way through an SD card or or, like,   through a QR code to your hardware wallet, including code card. Or with the CK bunker, you could you could actually make some kind of API or even a command line interface as as, Emily K pointed out on on the Twitter thread that,   it's already possible to kind of,   run a CK bunker and   then give it paste   the USBP on this on the command line and have it signed according to the able to  

[00:31:16] Unknown:

So I'm I'm so I'm so   I'm I'm so glad you brought this up because this is what   I want to bring into Zeus as the biggest new feature on the redesign.   I would like people to be able to craft channel opens   and then be able to open them from the device, like a hard   air wallet device with a camera and QR code   scanner that   like, like, say, the Kobo Vault or, what's the new one? Key stone? I know there's also the Spectre DIY, which I wanna put together.   And, of course,   I've been berating   Rodolfo over here to release his own gold card QR product.   So, Rodolfo, I know you're just flooding QR codes and scanners because you're dragging your feet on getting this police out the door. So can you can you quit doing that? Can you send me a prototype, and we'll work on the the validation, the confirmation, please?  

Because   so the problem is the user not validating that data, right, on the PSVT stuff? Yeah.  

[00:32:20] Unknown:

So so there is there is a few things. Right? I   mean, there is a lot less need   than people think for a hardware wallet that can read QRs   because,   and I'll tell you this from, like, what's not like, it's not this is not the shiny sort of, like,   experimental stuff that people love to talk about on Twitter, but, like, just from, like,   the   we have a very decent sized user base.   And   most people,   1, are never gonna use a phone for large amounts of money   even if they're using a harder wallet. Right? Because you cannot control your privacy on the phone properly. I mean, sure, you can if you, you know, do Graphene and you put Thor and then you run your own node on the phone, all that stuff. Not trivial. It's definitely not trivial.   Exactly. So so what people do is   and this is the large majority of the people holding money that matters to them. Right? Like, so more than spending money.  

They have a a spare laptop or even their main machine   where they have Bitcoin Core, and then they have Spectre. They have,   a Sparrow.   They have Electrum,   something like that.   And that's sort of like their money machine. Right?   And then they use that machine to talk to the cold card either via USB or via SD card   only when they're gonna sign.   Right? So oftentimes,   the cold card is not even on the premise   of where the computer is.   So the the microSD shuffle   is is a lot   more important   than it seems.   Right? The USB   shuffling of data means you can take the data from the money machine, your laptop that's, like, sort of like your your bank machine, right,   all the way to your secret location where you have your hardware wallet,   without   carrying   the actual hardware wallet with you. Right? So the hardware wallet never leaves your secure location,   and never goes any place. The radios are accessible like nothing. Right? It just leaves in some dark place,   and that's where it goes.  

And that's not even to count, you know, if people are splitting things, if they have passphrase or whatever. Right?   So   the problem with incentivizing   people to use QR codes and hardware wallets is that you're making easy for them to have the device   in their hands   where they shouldn't.  

[00:34:53] Unknown:

Right? You shouldn't carry your card and wallet around with you. So so let's let's let's bring that back. So you're saying that when I'm scanning QR codes, I gotta be in within the line of sight,   whereas with a   micro SD card, I could just put the PSVT on there and take it to another location.  

[00:35:11] Unknown:

That's right.   And then and then there is also so it it's like a bunch of, like, little UX things that do cause people to lose or not lose money. Right?   And then, of course, there's, like, a lot of people fall for evil QRS.   Not that the microSD fully solves that, but it sort of pushes away the QR from view at all. Right?   Say we're not building a QR code capable device,   that's just not our priority, but it's sort of like a side project that we have for actually quite some time.   It's just that if you're gonna build   a harder device that has QR capability,   then not focusing   on the Huddl, but focusing on other things that you wanna do with QR, if you wanna do a stagefulness,   seems more useful.  



[00:36:09] Unknown:

Interesting. So   how do you think you're gonna proceed forward then with the cold card line? Is there not gonna be a model now with the camera and the color screen and whatnot?  

[00:36:22] Unknown:

Yeah. So   so what we're doing is mark   4 is is, like, focus on increased security.   But it's, like, between quotes, infinite memory   because it's just a it's a few orders of magnitude more memory.  

[00:36:37] Unknown:

Wow. Multiple orders of magnitude?  

[00:36:41] Unknown:

Yeah.   Like, that's why we're we joke internally. It's, like, relatively speaking, it's infinite memory.   And,   many other sort of, like, capabilities in that spectrum. So, like, much bigger chip family,   you know, we we have some interesting things going on with Secure Elements.  

[00:37:02] Unknown:

Did wait. Wait. Wait. Did you say Secure Elements, plural?  

[00:37:06] Unknown:

I think there was noise on the line.   And,   yeah. Like, the focus is that. Right? So it's like, you know, we're gonna refine the the the the plastic a little more.   It's the same. It's, like, clear.   But, like, we we want to just sorta it's a it's mark 4, so it's incremental. Right? The QR camera stuff with bigger,   screen and all that stuff, that's a separate product line.   It's not gonna be the MK line.  

[00:37:39] Unknown:

It's,   it's gonna be for people who don't need as hardcore security.   They're willing to add other dependencies into the stack including that camera,  

[00:37:49] Unknown:

for Yeah. It's like more complexity.   It it it's, you know, it's gonna be able to do more things, but it's gonna have different set of trade offs.   Right? It's it's like a different beast. For sure. Cool.  

[00:38:02] Unknown:

Alright. Well,   you know, I I should might as well just give you my money now because I want both those products.  

[00:38:10] Unknown:

Wait. Let me send you a an LA, an invoice. Yeah. Here we go.  

[00:38:14] Unknown:

For for those who don't haven't been following me and Rodolfo going back and forth on Twitter, I say, I will implement   lightning network payments on the coin kite shop if he gives me an original block off.   The offer is still on the table, but, you know, wanna sub that out for a nice selection of the new gold cards, it'd be worth something.  

[00:38:37] Unknown:

I don't I don't have more OG block clocks. That's it. Are they all gone now?   Yeah. Whatever we made is sold.   I have my own stash, but that's it. Hell, yeah. Well, congrats, man.  

[00:38:50] Unknown:

You've had a hell of a year. A lot of people picking up that block clock. Benny, I'm   happy to see it a whole bunch of places. Any time I hang out at a Vic Hunter's house, it seems like they have it.   So, yeah, props to you for making another great product there.  

[00:39:06] Unknown:

I mean, you know, it's,   it's a fun space to build stuff too.  

[00:39:11] Unknown:

Yeah. That's for sure.   Alright.   Who else we got up here? We had just for up here, but I guess he dipped. I hope he's still   recording everything.   Yeah. This is pretty much a free for all, folks. Anyone wants to get in on the mix. Let's see. There's Actually just a quick Can I Oh, go ahead, Nipriddelpa?  

[00:39:36] Unknown:

No. I'm sorry if I cut you off. No. I'm just I I thought no. No. No. No worries. My my connection is shit here. So, like, I keep on not knowing when things start or things end.   I'm actually curious for OpenNoms. Like, I was it you who created the the open and close the channels on the Lakrum with hardware wallet? Or, like, I I think you did something if I remember right. And then also Yeah. I put together a guide on satbass.org,  

[00:40:02] Unknown:

which is like my little blog web. It   so I wrote out a guide to use PSVTs,   with Electrum   to batch open channels.   And it also uses the balance of Satoshi's,   tool or the boss tool.   So so, yeah, I've I've got a guide on that. The the issue from, like, a u e UI perspective   is that you only have 15 minutes,   to actually construct the PSVT and sign it.   15 minutes. Right. The current version. So  

[00:40:38] Unknown:

so that Could you can can you can you push that through the c k bunker API? Familiar with that, the hardware, and, go into that process. But Like, so, like, say you have a cold card, like, hot connected, right, to the computer,   just sort of send it over for you to sign?  

[00:40:55] Unknown:

But, potentially,   you know, I'm not familiar with that the hardware and, going through that process, but maybe OpenOMS might be able to speak to that.  

[00:41:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I didn't try that kind of workflow. You have actually, you only have 10 minutes, not 15. So it's it's a bit,   normal. That's why c k bunker would come even more useful.   Yeah. That's that's one of my projects I'm I'm really looking into to kind of implement c k bunker properly   and start to play with it.   Certainly possible. I mean, it's PSBD, so it should be able to sign. You can actually realize quite a bit of savings.  

[00:41:33] Unknown:

The the opportunities that,   signing and opening channels with a PSVT   provides,   it also enables   you to batch open the channels   so you can actually realize quite a bit of savings.   And then so which means that you could increase your profits as a routing node if you just back Yeah.  

[00:41:54] Unknown:

And you don't have to broadcast them. Right? So you can you can have in your hand   a a whole bunch of different,   signed transactions, just un broadcast them, just hold them, and then pick the one that makes the most sense. Like, you could have different fees set up on them no. And not have the device connected anymore. So so the way way it works, you need to  

[00:42:18] Unknown:

communicate with the lightning pier first to establish the channel.   So then you will get the multisig address from that interaction,   and you need to send the agreed amount   to that multisig address within 10 minutes   for the request to live still. So for the peers to accept the channel and the channel to be open.   So that's that's the time limit.   So this is not about, like, justice transactions or anything  

[00:42:59] Unknown:

Cool.  

[00:43:01] Unknown:

And and, also, I mean, PSVT support is is big I mean, in, I think, as well. They they are actually their kind of basic   channel opening flow is based on PSBTs.   Like, they didn't even implement anything else, which is which is great in terms of, compatibility and, you know, just constructing all kinds of transactions.  

[00:43:24] Unknown:

So Do they look like losing you just a little bit.   Do they look like standard Bitcoin transactions, or or is there anything sort of, like, nonstandard about them? So it would be just,   you know, the the the hardware wouldn't even care.  

[00:43:38] Unknown:

No. It's just it's just to send to a to   a funding  

[00:43:42] Unknown:

2 of 2 multisync address. That's the transaction. There's nothing Well, there you go, Evan. So your your problem is solved already. You just gotta use it.  

[00:43:52] Unknown:

There we go. Just gotta   put it in.   Yeah.   Yeah. For sure. Just been messing around with all the PSPP stuff. Hopefully, I could   put it out with a bunch of,   business updates with the redesign and whatnot. It's gonna be a fun summer. Let me tell you, folks.   Easy as hell. But it's a well worth it.   Yeah. Yeah. After after you mean, after the show, I'm trying to pick up my, my keystone device too. Lexus sent me one of the new Kobo   successors too. So you're messing around with PSVTs,   air gaps with QR code and camera   on that front too. So lot of tools to mess around with.  



[00:44:32] Unknown:

Yeah. The most most extreme kind of use of this kind of function   is to coin join into a lightning channel,   which is already possible with join market since you are able to   pay to an external address with a coinjoin with join market,   using your own amount, no pool sizes and such.   But,   only problem is that for now, as we don't have output yet,   and obviously lightning is not lightning channels are not using that output either. It's   it's obvious   which output is   sticking out, and   that   output would belong to   the taker as well who initiated the word transaction. So, like, you do a 9 participants   coin join and only one address is longer, which is a 2 of 2 multisig.  

So, obviously,   you know, that is being used to   that that was the one which belongs to the initiator of the channel. So if you of the coin joint. So if you have   minus good chance because you only did 1 coin joint,   and you would have a chance to kind of identify that this conjoined Sudoku who was the taker,   then, you know, you could   basically   have have a link there,   which is   not,   not a good idea good idea to have. We should because of the time limit that you have 10 minutes to do this, and you need to coordinate it to all the other participants, you know, you could be out of time. So so that is not not something which which would be recommended.   But  

[00:46:14] Unknown:

it's So in Rodolfo's situation, where he's, like, going to an undisclosed bunker somewhere,  

[00:46:20] Unknown:

he has to get there within 10 minutes and load up that transaction sign. Yeah. You can you can access it in a hidden service. Yeah. I I I would probably access it. That's right. That's what you  

[00:46:30] Unknown:

would do. Yeah. There we go. So so on the device you're using for to be essentially your h s your lightning HSM,   that wouldn't be,   like, I mean, you can still put in a remote location over Tor. That's what the CK bunker was designed for. But,   you know, like, if this is just your your channel   sort of, management tool, right,   you don't have to have all your life savings there that could be in your house,   and, and you're gonna be just fine.   Your TV is gonna probably be worth more. So I I don't think that's, like, the security profile there that's a concern.  

[00:47:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the other thing is with having, like,   using an external wallet with lightning that can also specify the channels to be closed   or to an external address   at 2 times   either when you are opening the channel, so it can be only closed to that address   in a cooperative case. Or when you are closing the channel, you can also if it haven't hasn't been,   decided yet, then your side   of the amount,   you can for your your side of the amount, you can specify an address, which can be an external address, and it can be a cold card. And, obviously, if it's been already, like, kind of imported the export was imported to LND, then, you know, it can be streamlined much much better. So,   once you close the channel, then you have a thin cost of issue. I know we're gonna   get a lot of stuff. Straight away. Now that's pretty that's pretty nice touch.  



[00:48:04] Unknown:

But when am I gonna be able   to have my channel closed, go right into a coin joint transaction? That's when things get really fun. I know we're gonna get a lot of in ads Taproot.   We're gonna obfuscate our channel opens and close in that regard, but   when can I take it the extra mile and   tow it to a proper point joint right out of my lightning channel?  

[00:48:28] Unknown:

Well, why why don't you just feed it into your joint market,   maker,   wallet? Yeah. Exactly.  

[00:48:36] Unknown:

Yep. That's what you have to do right now.   But if you had some way of divvying it up and splitting into, like, the exact size pool and it kicks off transaction,   that would be something else to to hold.   But hell, we're heading the right direction. And,   now we've already got a great array of tools to help enhance our privacy, and we know it's gonna be getting better in November. Fingers crossed, you know. Hopefully, the miners don't screw us. Right? Rodolfo was alluded to earlier.  

[00:49:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It's just like nothing nothing is given. Right?  

[00:49:08] Unknown:

Nothing is given. Yeah.   Don't trust verify, as they say.   So let's see. Let's see. A lot of lot of awesome, stuff going on that front.   And, yeah, I think in the next year, we're gonna see a lot of better user interfaces   to help make those interactions better. Evan. Now you're you're not  

[00:49:27] Unknown:

why don't you send   LN   to   liquid BTC   to some rounds there   then back out?  

[00:49:36] Unknown:

With the confidential transactions? Yeah. Well,  

[00:49:40] Unknown:

I think mix there, and and it's cheaper fees too.  

[00:49:44] Unknown:

I think Greg Rubels was talking about this on Twitter a little bit. Greg is from Blockstream.   He's a really funny follow.   Grubels.   And he was talking about how l two can let you swap in now different commitments from, like, different side chains and whatnot for your channels.   So, like, have taking funds from l n and using that to do, like,   a liquid transfer,   which was crazy. It's, like, a way over my head, but   I think things are gonna become,   quite interesting, the interactions between lightning and liquid. I mean, right now, today, you could go on Liquid, right, and spin up a l n node on that. You have those assurances because, you know, those channels opens and closes or with confidential transactions. Right? You know  

[00:50:29] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I mean, like, the,   you know, the trade off there is the federation, but, like,   you know,   I feel I feel like people sort of hate a little bit too much on that. Like,   you know, I don't know of a lot of stories of people being censored on Tethr. Right?   Tethr is fully sensible.  

[00:50:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And,  

[00:50:53] Unknown:

like, I mean, Tether is essentially, like, completely   disrupting the offshore bank account. Right? So if you wanna hold dollars   and you don't want anybody to know, just use Tether. And they're not really gonna censor individuals.   So,   so when you think about how how much better the federation system is on liquid,   in terms of, like, censorship resistance,   You   know, like, I I think it's totally worth playing around with that.  

[00:51:26] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean,   Quickwood is, like, head and shoulders above existing custodial solutions. Right? Where only just one party has to be like,   okay.   This is a no go. I'm taking the funds.   So it's what is it? Like, something about 3 of 15 at least at the collude? Or maybe it's higher?  

[00:51:44] Unknown:

Well, so so yeah. So it's tricky. Right? If I remember, if they have a problem,   it drops from,   whatever the the big quorum is   to a much smaller one, a 3 out of 5 or something like that.   But but even so, I mean, like, it's fairly distributed.   The actors on it are reasonable for now. And,   you know, eventually,   there there should be   a competing federation, right, for Liquid 2,   which I think would actually make liquid even more interesting,   even the block stream liquid. Let's put it this way.   I think they should incentivize   a competing chain.  

Gives cover, but, yeah.   Absolutely.  

[00:52:35] Unknown:

While we're talking about liquid,   gotta say, anyone who hasn't should go back and find the Citadel dispatch with Wiz and Adam Back. They go really into the weeds on the liquid and,   you know, how the federation works, what the restrictions are,   potential scaling issues. Like, that was like a really long rip. I don't think I've heard Adam Beck   do that long a talk.   And, yeah, it was probably one of my favorite podcasts that, has put together on dispatch so far. So check that out, Freak. I don't know the number offhand, but sure you could find it on citadel dispatch.com with a quick search.  

[00:53:15] Unknown:

Yeah. The big thing   with   the spike  

[00:53:20] Unknown:

Oh, I'm sorry. I hit the mute everyone button. This UI is awful. Sorry, Noms.  

[00:53:25] Unknown:

Okay. Sorry. It's fine.   So just I know it's on the confidential transactions that, you know, when there was the   spike, I was, like, you know, had a little chat with, like, IRC about,   like, you know, what it would take for joint market to run on liquid. Right? Because it's it's the elements. The it's quite similar to Bitcoin. The there are just a couple of things which you need to change to be able to,   construct transactions on liquid rather than Bitcoin.   But,   that is   actually because of the confidential transact transactions, you don't need equal amounts   outputs.  

You need only   basically batch transactions with multiple participants.   So you can go into Telegram group. I mean, okay, now maybe not Telegram, Playtex or, you know, like XMPP or something,   which is more private and   press around your kind of PSVTs   with PS you don't need to know.   And you're just, you know, signing your inputs to go to the to your outputs and merge them together, and basically, it will appear as a coin joint,   because the amounts will not be seen.   And then It's quite interesting. But, obviously, you have the problem pegging out.  

[00:54:40] Unknown:

But Using I'm for for node coordination was a thing back in the day for people that don't know. There was an IRC channel for you to find Bitcoin nodes,   and then the Electron's,   nodes too for some time. Not shaken.  

[00:54:55] Unknown:

Oh, I guess I guess that makes sense. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. I did not know that   this must have been, pre,   you know, the initial seeds and whatnot run by everyone.   So you would just hop on there and say, I need some piers. I I'm not shinking.   Well, I guess I guess that makes sense. Like, if you try to take, like, a shitcoin node,   you know, I'm not proud to admit it, but I was helping a friend sync their Dogecoin node to dump their coins. Right?   And, you know, if you don't have ample peers, you cannot sync that thing. It's ridiculous.   So they go through all these hoops of, like, downloading torrents with the vast majority of the blocks.  

So, yeah, I I guess it makes a lot of sense for people to be advertising   that they are out on the network on something like IRC. That's pretty funny.  

[00:55:44] Unknown:

Yeah. This is what what about, like, manually coordinating   batch   transactions. It's not really.   Like, obviously, you shouldn't   connect to, you know, other people know other people's notes if especially if you don't know them.   And, also, if you're sharing your transaction, then, you know, you're sharing all all the data, which is within it. So it's it's not a recommended thing. It's just could be kind of a proof concept to start off,   kind of quasi   coin joints or liquid, and then, obviously, you will automate it. It's something on your communication   system. Didn't joint market also had at some point, IRC too. I remember. The joint market does communicate in IRC, but it's those are Yeah. Anonymized dots.  

So That's right. You know, they they don't give out all the information   on the if they engage in the coin joint, then, obviously, they   tell about their inputs and outputs to the taker,   who is the coordinator and who also   pays the fees.   So that's why it's, the most private way to use to a market is to be a taker to initiate the coin joints and coordinate at the same   But the order communication is still in IRC, so there is, like, a public order book, which is which is an I r which is, like, 2 or 3 IRC servers, which are obviously public. So,   you know, reports   advertise   the amount of it, which are all randomized so that it can't be coordinated to the actual, you know,   value or held in the wallet. And   also,   amount and the fees they are they are offering for. And then when that is   matches   with the taker, then   they would the communication would be encrypted   DMs   still on IRC. Wait.  

Some flood protection there. So, you know, you cannot go really higher than that. Yeah. I I I have no idea.   It's already   15 participants, and Gorgen is already kind of, pushing it. So usually Wait. Wait. So is this the default mechanism for JS?   Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's it's   Wow. Yeah. I I had I had no idea. Yes. Did they ever implemented the fidelity bonds or no. That never happened. Right? That is not like, never happened. It's in progress. Right? In the next zero Right. Okay. So Joe market just had a new release now, which is like a kind of a minor release. Right?   083.  

It's loads of kind of efficiency,   gains and   some privacy improvements and some algorithmic stuff, bug fixes, etcetera.   But in the next major 30, 0   dot 9, it is planned to have the fidelity bonds,   merged in and working. I mean, it's it's already the PR is is   being reviewed tested since   many months.   And, I mean, there is progress in there.  

[00:58:46] Unknown:

Awesome. And then also, I mean It's great it's great seeing how how these, like, projects, they've been around so long, and they're still iterating. You know, there's always something to improve on  

[00:58:55] Unknown:

JM or, you know, all these projects. Yeah. I mean, the communication layer, you know, obviously. I mean, IRC is something which is reliable, and it has been working for, you know, 5 plus years now.   But   comes comes with trade offs. I mean, you need to sometimes jump IRC servers. Like, it's   you know, like, GM wasn't using free node free node,   except   for their kind of, you know, developer chats,   normal,   communication channel.   But, you know, some some servers will basically go down and then you need to change or that you need to change the address,   the hidden service address and that, etcetera,   and we said there is the flood   protection,   which is like a rate limitation.  

But,   I mean, it's it's,   you know,   it it is one thing which   someone could take and improve upon. There's been, like,  

[00:59:49] Unknown:

proposed and, you know, partially done. So I got some in. Is any You know, open arms, like, off off the shelf, it just works. I mean, gotta be just a little bit more technical to use JM.   But for for people that haven't tried it, I highly recommend it. Like, because,   you actually make money as a maker, So you you just you put some funds in a in a machine. You're gonna run this thing, and you just let it run.   You set your your fees, and that's it. It's, like, it's actually pretty cool.  

[01:00:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I would say it's it's quite,   so the income is very much comparable to kind of an   amateur, let's say. I mean, everyone is is an amateur pretty much, you know, except like Alex Bosters, but to,   to an amateur   routing   notes.   The income   on GM is comparable to that, except   there is no way to lose money in the coin joint as a maker because, you know, obviously, you're only signing transactions which are   bringing some fee to you,   maybe only a couple of Satoshis,   but you always gain privacy. And and there is no babysitting either. Right? It's like set it and forget it. Set and forget. Exactly. I mean, that's that's what happens on the joining box as well. It's basically just,   runs as a system deep process. And, you know, until it's it's it's get shut down, it just goes in the background   and does its communication.  

Uber store only. That you can you don't end up with fixed amounts. But   Yeah. It's great fun. You know? Try to join market, and then and then it's the the thing is that you can   you don't end up with fixed amounts,   but you have a wide range of you know, if you started a big UTX, so it's broken up to smaller ones. If you have a lot of smaller ones, then, you know,   it can be merged together   through coin joints by others as well as well as by yourself if you   are opting to be a taker.   So the thing is you will have, you know, wide range of amounts   available to open a channel. So if you just want to construct a PSVT from that, you know, you can import your your x bot to the NND wallet now, or you can just do the external funding with the balance of satoshis   or with with c lightning.  

And you can just choose   the the UTXO you would want to spend and see account for some fees.   And   if you want to if you prefer privacy,   pay higher fees on the transaction,   and don't create any change.   If   you want to be sure that your transaction goes through, even if there is a fee spike, then you must   think of creating a bit of a change to be able to   CPF 3, charge space with parent, the general opening transaction. Because   if it doesn't get into   the blockchain in 2 weeks after opening the channel, then it will become a stale channel, and, you know, you can it can be stuck   if you if you lose your information because the pair won't take any load of it anymore.  

So your chance will be to force close it   yourself.   So, yeah, there are some   things like that using external wallets.   But, yeah, I think with,   Anthony,   we've been going through of of of this question about how to how to   best to use the coin control in lightning,   which was, I mean, just coming from the different size of UTXO in in which market. Well, that's how do you how do would you do the coin control the best? And as as we said then as well,   that for privacy, it is best to just use value TXO without change,   but then   you are   exposing yourself to the risk of, you know, getting stuck in Oh, no. So I have one question. What what's the volume looking like over at JM right now? I haven't been on a while. And Yeah. What's the Any questions on these kind of things that   seem to just,   keep going on these?  



[01:03:59] Unknown:

Nahum. So I have one question. What what's the volume looking like over at JM right now? I haven't been on a while. And what's, like, the biggest and smallest order I could get filled over there?  

[01:04:10] Unknown:

Well, I mean, smaller orders I mean, you can always there is the Nix Bitcoin team does it on a public   OB Butcher, which is not a public order big voucher, which is   for which you don't need to spin up your own instance. So if you go to nixbitcoin.org/obwatcher,   then   it's it's it's all there. I mean, it's just the the steady offers for years. But it varies tremendously.  

[01:04:37] Unknown:

Right? Like Yes. It does. It's like you could have thousands of coins or you could have just 200 coins. Right? Like, it's, it's, sort of all over the place. The top is usually a few 100. I mean, very few would would go into so I would I would say, you know, I would be  

[01:04:51] Unknown:

comfortable   even if, you know, I would have that kind of,   amount attempt to go and join anything which has, like, you know, less than   10 makers available, let's say.   Because then you have you have hardly any any   one to to choose from, and then it's easy easy very easy to kind of see build it. So Evan, you can put your 50,000 coins there as a maker. You you you you do well.  

[01:05:22] Unknown:

Yeah. Just Yeah. I'm looking at I'm pulling up the the site right now. I'm on nix   bitcoin.org/obwatcher.   Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, it looks like there's some pretty,  

[01:05:31] Unknown:

pretty big orders listed. So the counterparties all can list their minimum and and maximum sizes Yeah. And you can list as well as their different feed. If you if you click on the top, of the road, and you can list by the maximum size or the minimum size. And, I mean, overall,   the the very small ones, you know, are going to when they go under, like, Aldo's case, Satoshis maybe.   And there are plenty of offers, you know, at at, like, 30,301,000   Satoshis. I mean, you know, that's a significant part of that will be a fee if you if you go more join. Wow. Okay. So I I got it now. So we got 527  

[01:06:06] Unknown:

orders here. We got 325 counterparties.   The max size   anyone's willing to do looks to be   320 and a half Bitcoin.  

[01:06:15] Unknown:

Yep. That's unbelievable. So so consider that that. And the smallest And and it does go through, man. If you watch that, you will see. Yeah. If the indeed That's unbelievable.  

[01:06:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Consider that. That's And the smallest looks to be, like, 2,730   SATs, which is pretty incredible too.   Yeah. That's amazing.   Yeah. It's just so much settings. So, yeah, definitely a definitely a nice distribution,  

[01:06:40] Unknown:

right there as well. Another interesting thing on this is that,   if if the volumes start to grow, if they see action, they will make more coins available.   They will make,   more entries there. Oh, yeah.   Absolutely. Dynamic. Yeah. Like, you you see there's people sort of watching this well.  

[01:07:02] Unknown:

So so what you need to consider with this maximum size is that it is there are 5 mix depth in the join market wallet, and you can only go and join at at one time from one mix depth. So, you know, if you keep rolling these,   coins across,   you know, through coin joints across the mix, then they will basically have a close to kind of an equal distribution between the 5. So, you know, someone is   keeping their, you know, 1,000 Bitcoins   on   on on join market for a couple of months, then they will probably end up having, like, you know, 320 or, like, you know, 200 at in a in a mix.   But there will be almost 5 times   as much in the wall   wallet. Right? And then that was actually a change   in the in the latest release that   so far,   as a maker,   you've you would offer always from the smallest kind of, the the least,   the smallest mix that you add coins in. But now   the   the maker kind of will try to fulfill   the   coin join in a way that it will accumulate   the coins in one way that's so it can increase its potential, like, size rather than,   creating this equal distribution, but still, you know, considerably distributed between between the 5 mix ups in anyway.  



[01:08:31] Unknown:

So Now for someone who might might be new to join market, well, how would you describe a mixed depth? Is is that anything like your a non  

[01:08:41] Unknown:

set, and how do the 2 relate? No. It it to a mixed depth is just   5 accounts.   Right? So it's, like, 5 dimension of of the same export,   for the same seed.   Yeah. So as you can Mhmm. You can create those in, like, Ledger Live on one click. Right?   Or or you can have it on on any kind of firewall   or, or an extra or anything. So you can you could,   import these seeds to   to other wallets as well because it's all been certified   compatible. So it's it's just 5 accounts   where you would   generally fund 1 or you have if if you have different sources of front funds, you could you could deposit   to, you know, one from to one from this exchange, one   to another one to,   from another exchange. Maybe if you don't have a if you have a non KVACI source, you will you will deposit it,   to the 3rd mix depth. So these coins won't mix without a coin together without a coin join. Right? Because that the way the way GeoMarks works, when you make a coin joint already participating   in a coin joint as a maker as well,   only the coin joint outputs progresses   to the next mix ups, like from, you know, 1 to 2 or 2 to 5, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and then 4 4 back to 0 and then 0 to 1. So that's how you have the 5. It's it's it's circular with these scripts which you can edit. So, you know, you can have, like, an acyclical   distribution   acyclical   kind of movement of coins as well. But by default, it is it is going   through the 5 and back to the first   through coin joints. So if you deposit to different mix depths, then, you know, these coins won't be seen   won't be merged together. And, also,   the the non mixed output   is not being mixed with the coin joint outputs. Right? So it doesn't happen like, you know, there is   always, like, a 3rd implementation,   which we like to see say that it is not very well implemented, that it won't click. You can just send all and, you know,   batched together,   merge together the non mixed change with the mixed outputs and then, you know, it it just takes away all the and that's that you were you were accumulating.  

With your market, it is,   segregated,   like, has the same same idea as it is happening with, like, some of that you have premixed   premixed wallet or your deposit   deposit   wallet.   Like, in in some wallets, it's good wallets rather than account, but it's the same thing. It's just another derivation path. So you deposit to 1, and then you mix, and it goes to post mix wallet or another account. And then   the there, the non mixed   unmissed change   is actually going to a third account, which is called, like, bad bank or, like, toxic change. Right?   So that way, it is separated, and they are not you cannot send from   all the   wallets   in similar wallets or all the mix that's in true market. You cannot,   buy the forward.  

You cannot   construct a transaction which is sending   from more than one mix. So this is automatically done   during when you are a maker that you can only send from one end time.   Doesn't answer your question.  

[01:12:13] Unknown:

K. Cool. Yes. Sounds like a, you know, very, in-depth way to manage your inputs and make sure they don't get mixed up and potentially   compromise your,   privacy.  

[01:12:24] Unknown:

Yeah. So that's the point that's the point of help. For that explainer. It's a very underappreciated  

[01:12:28] Unknown:

project   because it doesn't have a marketing team.  

[01:12:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. There's there's no one that's gonna come and yell at you and   be very aggressive about why you're not using joint market.  

[01:12:42] Unknown:

That's that's right. Yeah. Absolutely.  

[01:12:44] Unknown:

It's it is a great mixer. I I really am a big fan of it. You know, it's definitely got its own nuances to it.   There's definitely   a bit of a more of a lift to use it, but I'm glad it's now implemented   in RaspiBlitz.   And you have the the join market project,   the join box project that's integrated there. So that's awesome. I would really like to see it implemented on more node platforms.   But, yeah, it's it's it's really cool. It it's completely different than having, like, a coordinated,   centralized,   coordinator that's putting the mixes together.   And it's all done with a market model, which is, you know, super unique. No one else, to my knowledge, is doing something like that. So, I'm really glad it's around. I'm really glad people like you are putting time to maintain it and make it better and and make better UX's for it. So so thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's I like it because I use it myself.  

And, you know, just Yeah. Exactly. I mean just wanted to streamline it. That's, that's what the joining box is about. And, also, it can be I mean, that's how the best projects are are made, man. Just scratching your own itch to get something done. And if if anyone else likes it too and happens to use it, that's just a bonus. And Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, having, like, you know, contributors to this I mean,  

[01:14:00] Unknown:

that's that's just really great to kind of, you know, come people and have people coming in and then, like,   you know, just   fix it this or that. So just even opening issues or or giving some feedback is is is very useful.   And, yeah, the other thing Yeah. Absolutely. I  

[01:14:17] Unknown:

I I just wanna to underscore that you don't have to be a programmer to help out with any of these open source projects. There's so much work that can be done from just being a user, reporting issues, giving feedback,   you know, testing and in testing beta releases   or, you you know, even doing something like helping with the translations on, like, a Transifex or something. There's so many different ways you can help contribute to these projects. So Yeah. Documentation is is is the biggest thing because all the developers, you know, they can be very good, but, you know, it's very difficult to kind of make make the document code for something that you you you've wrote the code for. Right? Because, obviously, it works. It's in the it's in the code. Why would I need to you know? It's like Yeah. You understand it. It it's like you almost have to step out of your shoes and see, like, what now is either we've perceived everything. That that's what I have a problem with now with with Zeus. We're working on new documentation sites.   And,   yeah, like, I I can't be the one to write. I'm too close to it. So all I can do is, like, you know, try to get the perspective of other people, help with the copy, and,  

[01:15:21] Unknown:

you know, just just try to figure it. Than ours. We don't even have search.  

[01:15:27] Unknown:

Oh, man.   That's alright. Hop in Google.   But, yeah, that's that's definitely one of the big projects we're putting together alongside our redesign this summer. But, yeah, documentation   is tricky. So, folks, if you're thinking about, you know, projects you like and you're not quite a programmer,   there's tons of ways to get involved. So Come redo the docs. Come Yeah. Come help come help come help the the cold card docs, please. The telephone needs is direly. Yeah. So, yeah, just just get involved, be vocal, try to reach out on the platforms that these projects are communicating on, whether it be IRC or other forums or the GitHub.  

[01:16:06] Unknown:

And there's there's always plenty of work to do with these projects. Yeah. So Many times you start folks. Yeah. Many times you need to start it. Why would I want to do this? Right? Why do I need to run a full node? Why would I want to connect it connect the wallet to it? You know? Why would I want to coin joint?   And, yeah, that's very it's all very valuable. Yeah.   Who people who are,   kind of just flooding the word about how why these people why these things are important and why why we need to   we need to do this and be be very kind of   you know, hard line on on using   using these tools which are available to  

[01:16:44] Unknown:

us. So to open up, I have another question for you.   So how do we get more join market users?   Do we just need a better or or simpler   GUI?   Do we does it need a mobile app?   What what do you think?  

[01:17:01] Unknown:

Well, I mean, obviously, an API would be would be great. I mean,   not at the level where I could make it, but I can support it. Right? And there is work done to that extent. But, I mean, you know, it's like   like,   it's hot swing being the main core,   contributor   and,   kind of coordinator of the project and, like,   Chris Belcher and then a   couple of other people who are working on it, like, Christoph's.   I mean,   he's actually working a lot of, like,   little UI   things and and fixing bugs and stuff. But then, you know, some people are just   so much But these are programmers building UI. Right? Yeah. They're so much more interested in a protocol or, like, what are the cool things we can do. Right? And and how can  

[01:17:50] Unknown:

we make it You know, they Yeah. What'll be amazing is, like, you know, you have projects like BlueWallet   has a a tab called joy markets, right, that you just put the money and you press a button. Yeah. Right? That that's like if you want normal people to use it,   you want this very sort of toned down, pretty sort of phone wallet. The the phone wallets are interesting because they are stateful. Right?   And they're they're just always connected.   So, that that that could be an interesting thing. And then, you know, if you're putting 1,000 coins there, then you probably wanna do it from a secure   computer, but,   different problems.  



[01:18:27] Unknown:

I mean, one thing is that I mean, obviously, the number of makers,   you know, that I mean, when I was   started to kind of look at your own marketing, what, like, you know,   2 years ago or about, you know, we we are we're hitting, like, in a 100   100 orders, like, you know, 60 to 90.   It it was obviously   still on, like, the,   perhaps, segment addresses   and, you know, managed to,   kind   of have enough adoption of of native segment and also a bit of push from the community to kind of move over to to the native segment addresses like,   when was it? Like, I don't know. Like, was it a year ago, half year ago? I mean, it wasn't too   too long ago. But then now there is a sudden jump of of,   you know, in the number of makers of only. And then you can actually, obviously, just scan the scan the blockchain. There's a script in the joint markets kind of repo to do it, to identify joint market coin joints as well. And that is, like, you know, 6   30, 60,   200 kind of transactions per day,   being done with joint marketing.  



[01:19:35] Unknown:

NAMS,   the the they they used to have a lot of users, but this was way back when that project started.   When was it? Like, 2015   Yeah. That this came out?   Yeah. It was around 2015. There used to be a lot of users.   Yeah. And then sort of, like, you know, it sort of slowly   weighed off.   It seems like, yeah, it seems like it's picking up again now.   But,   there there used to be, you know, all the all the crowd that had a a need   for privacy that was a little bit more needed. And, also, they didn't  

[01:20:13] Unknown:

care about the fees because it was   That's right. I mean, obviously, much less value then. But I remember, like, there's, like, a tweet from Chris from, like, you know, 2015   that, oh, I that was a good day in joint market. I made, like, points 3 Bitcoin on it. Right? That's  

[01:20:29] Unknown:

Jeez. Yep. That that rules.  

[01:20:32] Unknown:

Yeah. It is it is crazy.   Yeah. How many coins you need for that. Right? It's like 100.   So   yeah. And the the usage, I think, obviously, the awareness needs to be   hooked up. And then, I mean, you know, if these things cost money, so, I mean, after all, you want to be a taker as well. So, okay, you can make some sense that she's being maker, but but to to gain proper privacy, you need to alternate the roles, and you want to be a taker as well. Then you need to pay first I mean,   it's   almost negligible   what you   need to pay for the takers because everybody's, like, you know, broken them breaking themselves   to to get into the coin joint, so they just know where the fees to close to 0. But the transaction fees are it can be significant, and we accept we we, you know,   expect the transaction fees to be to be quite high, you know, going forward. And that certainly does   take down the activity,   the on chain activity.  



[01:21:36] Unknown:

And then Yeah. It looks like Capso Dell is a spy in the audience now.   You're supposed to be working here, dude.  

[01:21:43] Unknown:

That's about him.  

[01:21:46] Unknown:

Hold up. Hold up. I got it.   Damn. They let him out of early, man. The Department of Homeland Security let you out of interrogation early. Can't believe it.  

[01:21:57] Unknown:

Or or maybe maybe it is Dan using his phone. It could be. You know, the  

[01:22:04] Unknown:

the deep bakes, you could do a voice changer.   We'll test him. We'll test him. We'll know for sure.   That is if he joins. Who knows?   But while Matt tries to join or maybe not,   Nams, does join market have any, like, bounties?   Because, personally, I would really like to see an API get built around for it. That would really extend its the use of it.   So is there, like, a bounty system, or do we have to put one together ourselves to get this made?  

[01:22:34] Unknown:

Well, there was Yeah. There was already a request coming from, like, a Nifty nine. These are 2 kind of somehow   coordinate with the dual funded channels and   and and coin joints.   Yes. But they I know Yeah. Obviously, an API would be would be a big step forward. I mean, the thing is you need to,   yeah,   you need to motivate   motivate the people who are   able to make it,   who are probably already existing kind of job developers   to to do it. Yeah. I mean, you know, upon   surely,   there was   quite significant bounties from, like,   have put them on anyway for, like, just going to an implementation. Right? Which was, like, jointly jointly taken by, like, Wasabi and and and Sunrise as well.  

Right? Or I'm not not not sure. I'm I'm I'm sure that, kind of the first kind of user friendly point of implementation   bounty was taken up by Sabi,   you know, when they started, and it was quite, quite a huge thing. It impressed everyone.   But, yeah, there should be. Is  

[01:23:51] Unknown:

is it not Yeah. It just seems to me like since there's no  

[01:23:54] Unknown:

financial incentive for, like, the centralized coordinator because there is no coordinator. Right? It's not like There is. Right? I mean, like, if you if you are people who wanna have more privacy,   especially if you have a lot of income,   it's probably in our interest to make it easy for people to put in their clean coins in there,   or or even their sort of more complicated coins in there to get all mixed in. Right? You you are looking for more liquidity   in there to get more privacy.  

[01:24:24] Unknown:

Liquidity more takers as well. Fair. That's fair. So more more usage.   Because, I mean, by default, if you just run I mean, you have, like, a joint market queue  

[01:24:34] Unknown:

Some technical difficulties. I I can hear you.  

[01:24:48] Unknown:

Uh-oh. Some technical difficulties here. I I can hear you, Evan.  

[01:24:53] Unknown:

Sure.   Yeah. We lost   yes. Some some connection issues.   NAMS, what were you saying? Do we have you back?  

[01:25:01] Unknown:

I think I've I've have I been away? I still have the captions going for myself and for you as well.  

[01:25:07] Unknown:

Interesting.   Yeah. We lost you there for a second.   But, yeah, we're we're just talking about potentially,   you know, getting an API for this thing and supporting this thing. If we have an API, we'll get more liquidity in it.   That should be incentive enough for some of these big whales to   contribute to a potential bounty. Right?  

[01:25:29] Unknown:

Yes. I mean, there there are a couple of,   write ups done for, like, a loose architecture and,   yeah, I think I've already spoke to Fountain from,   fully noted that he is, you know, want to plug into that. And then, obviously, he was interested   to have seen that there was not much to plug into so far. But,   yes.   You know, this is for this up for discussion for sure.  

[01:25:57] Unknown:

Interesting. I'll have to get a little more   involved on that front. That's definitely something I'd like to see between that and, tying into lightning channel open. So a lot of exciting stuff going  

[01:26:09] Unknown:

on on that. Things just like you know, there's this I mean, obviously, I cannot speak any in the name of anyone who's who is related to kind of this open sets project, you know. But this is something which would also the h f. You know? This is something which they would probably be very happy to kind of Yeah. So if anyone if if by chance there's anyone who might be involved with open SaaS listening,  

[01:26:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Take a note. We'd really like to see something like this happen. You know? Might might end up taking this API and working on an app myself   for a mobile   combination. I got a freak in my DMs. He's saying he's down for a million sats bounty. So   any potential   potential devs thinking about implementing it, you know, the sats are coming in from the freaks.   A lot of people are interested in it.   And, I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that since there's no, like, de facto central coordinator   to have the incentive to,   be iterating on stuff. We, as a community, we have to make sure we step up and make sure   that we're contributing either with code or financially to the projects that,   you know, or projects or wrappers that we wanna see built.  



[01:27:18] Unknown:

I mean, obviously, here, the challenge is that you don't have a you actually don't have   a central server coordinator to plug into. Right? So,   I mean   so you would need to run your Feature, not a bug.   Yeah. Absolutely. Obviously, this is this is the implementation which you cannot run without having Bitcoin Core fully synced. Right? So   and you need to kind you can connect to someone else's Bitcoin core node, but that would be, you know, not that easy and,   you know, not a default kind of behavior for anyone. So,   the thing is that you would still be around your node, and for that,   I mean, you really need to   have, like, a a remote. I mean, yes, Ceaseus would be a a great remote for to send commercial money transactions. But, what you can do is, you know, take the these those exports   and construct transactions.  

And there is   s with ck bunker,   same with joint market. You can just paste an   add a non sign PSBT,   a construct PSBT, which you can just sign and develop to after giving you a passport password.   Right? Not your passport. No password. Right?   So  

[01:28:36] Unknown:

You got you need to provide your, to to bring it back to early, you gotta press dodge your vaccine passport to mix.  

[01:28:43] Unknown:

Yeah. No. So   so you can sign an externally constructed   PSPT with join markets in the command line or, like, the join inbox, you can just use that little menu,   which I put together,   and, you know, I mean, it could be properly implemented in the QT interface as well.   And that's how I would I would really kind of send,   you know, money out of there,   not not with   a connected light wallet or like a or like a mobile wallet, to be honest.   But  

[01:29:20] Unknown:

But just coordinating from another separate wallet, right, that just has the xpubs, and then when you're ready  

[01:29:26] Unknown:

to add them to the pool or whatever, you just move them over. So so it's it's very technical to kind of run I mean, very technical. So, you know, you need to jump that   fence to be able to to run your own noise and just set up your own market   and have it running to be able to connect back to it. Right? So it's not like Yeah. Yeah. Central service, you could you with an API, which you can just plug into and use.  

[01:29:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Remote control is just, like we do on Zeus. Yeah. That'd be really cool. So it's yeah. It's similar with lightning. Right?  

[01:29:58] Unknown:

That you will Exactly. Either use use a custody or service, which you should I mean, with lightning, you do because it's only pocket money. But, obviously,   with your, you know, significant amount of your of your savings or your, like, months of salary and stuff like that, you know, you shouldn't put it into a custody or   coinjoin   or not even, like, you know, any custody mixer. There's been just a post by Bitcoin q and a about him being approached by by someone who's has lost his money using a website, which I won't,   you know, say here, but this is an obvious scam,   advertised to be   a customer mix. So so that's a huge no or no. Right? So you would only use your own nose, and that's you'd need to have it running. And then   do you then need   a remote control?  



[01:30:51] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely not trivial. Definitely a lot of challenges in there, but   at the same time, that's the ultimate. It's it's definitely worth pursuing and and definitely worth trying to get some people,   trying to make it all one comprehensive,   experience on the go. So let's see. And, you know, it looks like people are willing to put up money towards it. I got another freak on top of the original one in my DM saying they're good for another 1000000 stats.  

[01:31:16] Unknown:

Privacy is only for people that have something to hide.  

[01:31:23] Unknown:

Yeah. I   mean, if you,   I mean, it was only for people who don't want,   you know, people you send money to to know every damn thing. You know? I mean,   we gotta be open about it with an transparent ledger   without mixing,   right, and and second layer tools.   Bitcoin is like the perfect,   surveillance   technology.   So we need to do we need to, a, take advantage, right, that we have that surveillance technology   to get assurances about Bitcoin supply,   but also, b, need to counter that   in our own economic transaction. So   it's hell of a dichotomy, let me tell you.   But it's definitely worth fighting for in my opinion.  



[01:32:08] Unknown:

Would would in your opinion, a web interface be,   you know, considered safe enough, be useful   to to do this. Because, obviously, now, what, you know, I mean, what I built at join a box and what is available is, like, you have at the EverQT interface, which is somewhat   kind of   yeah, you need Linux to run basically because because on on   Windows,   it's just not solved how to how to run your own node and set it up the tour and everything else. It's it's just counterintuitive  

[01:32:44] Unknown:

when you're on Windows. When you get down to it, the Windows platform is just like a giant piece of spyware.   You know? Yes. It sucks.   And, you know, macOS is much better in that it's based on FreeBSD,   but it still phones home, and there's a lot of bloatware.   But, yeah, you really need FreeBSD   or Linux.   But Rodolfo left before my,   FreeBSD plug. But, yeah, you really need if you're if you're worrying about stuff like your privacy, you really do need a stack that's based on free and open source software.   60 one zero two is messaging me. He's saying build into Sparrow.   That would be incredible too.  

Hell, I think these tools should be built in and have compatibility   with each other,   as much as possible.   You know, like, when you talk about,   having support for this and and say Zeus or something, like, I would also love the ability   to have your SAMROW PS I mean, b t it's not your PS. B t x pub's to be imported, your XPubs, your YPUBs, everything.   Same for, you know, calling it from Gold Card.   And, yeah, I I think a lot of things are gonna be built up to go in that direction. We just need the application protocol interface   to be able to communicate to it, NAM. So let's see if we can make it happen.  



[01:34:02] Unknown:

So would you guys mind if I kinda brought us back to where we started on the join market part where we were kinda talking about liquid and lightning here?   And he seems to Great. Let's bring it back, Chaz. Let's bring it back. Sure. So I was I was talking to Fiat Jaffe,   and he seems to Love that guy. What's up?  

[01:34:23] Unknown:

I'm sorry to cut you off. I was just saying I love Fiat Jaffe. He's an great individual. Right. So yeah. Like and that was a really, fun conversation. But,  

[01:34:32] Unknown:

point is is that he he he was kind of alluding kind of what you were saying before about using liquid and lightning at the same time. Maybe a small   distinction there but like he was talking about using,   lightning,   on liquid with Bitcoin lightning basically using a bridge And he was talking about that if it was set up correctly,   that you'd be able to route between the two networks.   So the thought that I wanna throw out there is, you know,   that the way, you know, the way that it makes sense to onboard to Lightning right now might be both on chain or directly over Lightning via, you know, someone else providing that liquidity.   But in the future, you might be onboarding to the Bitcoin lightning network via liquid lightning.  

Just a random ass slot here.  

[01:35:23] Unknown:

Yeah. That that that would solve the problem. Yeah. That would solve the problem as well. Right? Because you were free to leave   through these   basically, we'd pick out the lightning, which is, I mean, much more   much less traceable within,   our chain.  

[01:35:40] Unknown:

Absolutely. It's it's gonna be interesting to see, like, each hop, like, let's say, on the Lightning Network   potentially advertising, like,   you know, there there are liquid lightning routes too and saying, okay. Yeah. I'm good for it. I I will accept your liquid lightning SaaS. They're, you know,   as good in my eyes, or or maybe you have some sort of weird   ratio at which you'll accept them. But, yeah, things are gonna become a lot more dynamic on that front, and things are gonna get   quite interesting with those,   sort of cross side chain swaps as far as ln stuff goes. So,   you know, obviously, a colossal has to be built out, but, I definitely see the potential for   that being a pretty dynamic ecosystem.  



[01:36:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I I just see for the trade off, you would just,   charge   large  

[01:36:30] Unknown:

routing fee. Exactly. So, like, you your your routing fee on one of the networks might be larger if you're doing a swap to another   as like, if you're going from lightning to liquid lightning, you say, okay.   I I'm I wanna do the swap because it's gonna cost me to pig out.   So my fees are higher. Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:36:50] Unknown:

Let's see. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I don't know. You are breaking up.  

[01:36:55] Unknown:

Oh, no. Hear you. Yes.   Uh-oh. Let's see. I think we just lost him there. Sorry, guys. We've seen that sometimes Can you guys hear me now? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yes. No. You're back.   Okay. Yeah.   Sorry, guys. We seem to have some technical issues. It's not quite as smooth an experience   just connecting,   through our traditional channels for sit down dispatch.   But, still really   appreciate chatting with you guys all on this format. It's it's been so much fun.   But, yeah, there's definitely gonna be I mean, I think we're just scratching the surface with the stuff. Like, lightning is just starting to really get used now,   and hardly anyone uses liquid right now. Right? So,   over the next, let's say, 4 years are gonna be really interesting to figure out,   you know, all the use cases for them and,   you know, the interoperability   between them. So   So   A lot of a lot of exciting stuff on l 2.  

Yeah. Go ahead, Nams.  

[01:37:55] Unknown:

Oh, yes.   I'm not sure. Just tell me if you don't hear me well. So that, it would be very interesting that, people would,   which direction it would be. But I was I was just thinking that how funny it would be that you would have have very cheap kind of on chain transactions on liquid, but then   the Lightning Network on liquid would be so expensive because   you just   charge to provide that service   by values.   And, you know, it would be the complete opposite of what happens on   on Bitcoin.   But the, yeah, the the flow of funds would be that, obviously, they would be moving   in   liquid on chain, and then they would move out through lightning. So, yes, you could, charge the aisle routing fees.  

And, you know, people would get privacy in this direction.  

[01:39:00] Unknown:

So I just wonder if, you know, we're gonna see routing nodes that   are routing across multiple Lightning Networks. Like, I don't necessarily wanna get into the subject of shitcoins here.   I'm, you know, on a shaky ground with, liquid, I'm sure, with some people, but   I I still see, you know, block space on Bitcoin being insanely valuable at one point, and so you're gonna have all kinds of different entry points.   So you might have an entry point on Shitcoins, Lightning Network,   as well. We don't I don't I'm not aware of any other Lightning Network because that's even,   you know, half as relevant as Bitcoin's. Lightning's,   or I'm sorry, Litecoin's Lightning Network has, like, $30,000   on it compared to Bitcoin's, like, 50,000,000 or 60,000,000.  



[01:39:51] Unknown:

So it's There's there's there's a couple.   Someone for Zeus on some shitcoin called Grosso coin.   And, yeah, it's just floating up, I think, on the iOS app store. So they I guess they got one. I I really don't know how much capital is up on there.   But, Chaz, I think to answer your question about, like, interoperability   between them,   you know, beyond thinking about something like RGB   on   lightning and, Omnibolt or whatever,   the interoperability works because at the end of the day, we're talking about the same units. Right? Like, a liquid sat and a lightning sat are pretty much, you know, supposed to be the the same value.   So when you're adding, like, other units in, like, a light coin sat, like, then things get hairy and,   you know, what do your channels even mean at that point? It gets complicated.  



[01:40:40] Unknown:

I guess maybe my point went too off the rails there, but kinda bring it back to reality here.   If we're just to stay within maybe just liquid and lightning and maybe some, you know, theoretical   blind state chains that would come after we get any printout and l 2,   Like, I I just see that you're gonna have some nerd sitting here with the Raspberry Pi making   all kinds of money doing these kind of,   providing liquidity in different ways for different privacy services for your joint markets, for your lightning networks, for your liquid   routing.  

Like, what other fancy sci fi shit are we you know, can we think of here? Their thumbs in all these different  

[01:41:21] Unknown:

Well, I I think you're totally on the money. Like, people just connected to all the different services   that have their thumbs in all these different pools or whatever. They have the liquidity going all these different ways,   And they're just a router. They're just an operator at the end of the table, you know, like,   like, similar to a phone operator, and they're just making sure your stats get from one destination   to the other. And, you know, that could be their whole career, just facilitating   that liquidity,   from one place to another for a party.  

All sorts of swaps, all sorts of,   you know, coin joints.   I don't know. It could get really interesting, really.  

[01:42:02] Unknown:

Is it possible for us to get to,   just up her backup here just to kinda maybe hear his thoughts on, you know, throwing liquid into the mix and how it would make his life a living hell maybe.  

[01:42:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that that would be great if you could just for up here. One. Let's see. Hold up.   Yeah. I mean, that that would be great if we could get Justin for up here. He wants. Let's see. Hold up.   Yeah. No pressure, bro. Just to make sure we're still recording.   We'll give him a second. I I wanna make a correction from earlier.   I was calling Amboss   Ambos,   but it is pronounced   Am Bos.   So that's just the first lightning network graph explorer. You should all check it out.   If you're into UI or messing with these lightning back ends, you should definitely get involved with that project.   It definitely has a lot of potential, and I've been finding myself using it a bunch. Looks really nice. Gonna join us, Jennifer? Oh, well. That's fine.  



[01:43:07] Unknown:

So   something kind of  

[01:43:11] Unknown:

not gonna join us, Jesifor? Oh, well. That's fine.  

[01:43:15] Unknown:

So  

[01:43:16] Unknown:

something kind of totally different that I that I wanted to go into here versus just staying on that topic is something that I am not concerned about, but I think this is gonna happen just because   Bitcoin's ecosystem is just slow,   to roll out updates and things is,   Taproot   oh oh, Jessica,   before I go too far. Were you gonna what would you would you wanna comment? Oh, there he is.  

[01:43:39] Unknown:

I might have missed, the initial comment. I did hear the AMBOSS shout out, so thank you a ton for that.   But I missed the question. Sorry.  

[01:43:49] Unknown:

So we were just kinda talking about,   you know,   you're a lightning node operator at the moment. You know?   Do you do you like or hate the idea of potentially adding liquid into the mix   and, you know, expanding  

[01:44:04] Unknown:

the definition of what, you know, an operator would be. Right? Yeah. We're basically you're sending it to I'm pretty excited about it. It's it's come up a couple of times.   And,   like, in in some of the in some of the, like, the arbitrage   things that you might do as   a a router where basically you're sending it to yourself through complicated means,   but but you end up trusting,   some some custodial entities.   And,   like, as,   so so for me, for example, I'll I'll deposit funds into a Bitfinex account because it's, you know, 0 k y c.   But,   I it only works at scale. So   I end up having to deposit   lots into there and sometimes I run out of liquidity.  

So as an intermediate step,   involving liquid   in that step   is is pretty exciting where I could trust, you know, the   the the entire federation instead of just one singular entity.   So so that's it. It already makes   a kind of a a natural   marriage there,   but then also from   some of the privacy tools that are available on liquid, it I think it makes total sense.   I'm pretty excited. I mean, as far as Amboss' like business case for that,   just being able to, like, kind of coordinate the different market participants,   like, that's a that's a huge business case for us. So   pretty excited about,   the other integrations,   whether it be liquid or,   other lightning protocols.  



[01:45:52] Unknown:

Do you see yourself being some kind of,   state chain blind state chain signer?   Or maybe a, better question would be, do you see yourself kind of   or people in general, maybe just   individuals offering these kind of services to people,   you know, maybe a business or maybe just an individual being altruistic kind of thing. I got  

[01:46:15] Unknown:

6102.   Yeah. I mean, this is kind of an open market. So,   yeah. Why why not?   Get them all participating and, you know, see what see what shakes out and what's, what's sustainable. Oh, I got 6102   in my DM saying,   no privacy tools other than, confidential transactions, it sounds like,   on on Liquid.  

[01:46:41] Unknown:

On Liquid. Yeah. I mean, people think that a confidential transaction will just give you the same privacy as a coin join, and that's not really the case. So that's why Odell was sort of campaigning to get some sort of, coin join mechanism going on there.   And then 6102 also hit me up talking about,   going from liquid lightning to Bitcoin lightning and how it would be a swap. And,   someone needs to   be making on chain Bitcoin transactions to keep those channels balanced. So I guess that goes into,   you know, different roles that people would have to could play in terms of, you know, being connected to these different networks and providing services to get   to get SaaS from one place to another.  

And he says, yeah. It's not it's not one to 1   on,   lightning sat versus liquid sat because you have to take into account the cost to peg out. So perhaps when you're doing a routing transaction,   for   going from one place to another and and you're crossing   from Bitcoin on lightning   to liquid or vice versa, you have to take into account,   you know, the cost to get there. So, at at Ensign, so it's economically,   viable to you. So there's gonna be a lot of different so yeah. Great great great point, 6102.   But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of interesting different markets that arise   around these use cases for people who are, you know, got their funds in one form and need to get it somewhere else and another. So it's gonna be really interesting.  

I I guess a big challenge in it is, like, broadcasting, like, how what your rates are and how to get it there and then facilitating that in the first place. I think that's that's what's really being built out right now. I think it's starting, like, right now with,   say, like, liquidity on lightning with stuff like Ellen Pool   and, say, the broadcasting of, like, getting liquidity that they're working on over at c lightning that was was talking about on   our lightning Friday session.   So, yeah, it's just about, like, how how are those mechanisms work and then these transfers are facilitated and how   these market makers advertise   their rates at at which they're willing to perform these,   liquidity functions.  

So, yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see these things develop over the next couple of years.  

[01:49:11] Unknown:

I'm super stoked. Like, on the quick I think it's really fun to kinda just watch the watch the market shift   as they get,   as the different participants get more information about, what the market is.   Because I know we got,   likes, you know, seed lightning liquidity ads.   That's   that's, like, around the corner,   but but then there's also, like, the pool auction results,   and and kind of,   comparing that to, like, where the mempool is at. So so there's all these different,   kind of, like,   market forces,   all these tools being developed, and then and then there's,   there's the mempool, which   is gonna kinda determine some of the pricing. I'm I'm curious how, like, channel stability is go going to play in there if if people are ending up with, with force closes and such. And I'm not sure how that how that's going to work between,   Lightning and Liquid   becoming more,   married.  



[01:50:15] Unknown:

Yeah. It's interesting to see, like, how that's gonna play into, like, ranking of nodes.   Like BOS scores, they have some ranking for, like, uptime or reliability,   right, as well as the quality of your liquidity and the amounts of it.   And, you know, it's really hard to sort of quantify the value of those things.   So these different algorithms sort of calculating it. I I think there needs to be a couple more, competing ones before we find that sweet spot. It's all sort of experimental right now. I know some people who've,   you know, may have been messing around with their BOS scores. Maybe they're in lightning,   terminal,   and they see it fluctuate a lot.  

You know, this is really the frontier of things. We're figuring out everything right now. You know? Like, exchanges don't for the most part other than, like, Bitfinex and Okay Coin. Like, they don't have lightning yet. Right? Hardly anyone is using liquid.   So we need to go through, like, these price discovery phases and,   you know, figuring out which of these properties,   bring more value to the table as far as, like, your uptime and, you know, your history of channel closes and and all these things. And these reputation systems do need to build out right now.   It's it's pretty interesting and pretty awesome just   seeing it all be made from scratch. These are things that, like, weren't around I think it was lots of like, year and a half ago. Like, even even 2 years ago, it was just really when lightning started getting  

[01:51:40] Unknown:

exciting and usable, really. Yeah. Like, it's not gonna follow you around forever.   And Yeah. Totally. I the   all those the scores, I think there's lots of focus on the BOS score.   But I I view it kind of just like the your SAT scores or, your GPA. Like, it's not gonna follow you around forever.   And and maybe that's not the best metric to determine whether you're, like, a valuable,   you know, human being or not.   It's, it's it's just one score. It's just an opaque score, and there will be many, many more.  

[01:52:16] Unknown:

Yeah. There's gonna be the Kaluta score. I know Dell score can totally be 1 in the mix. So who knows, man? I mean, we all just need to   put it to practice and see how it pans out in the market and see if these   scores actually end up being of value. So   here's the time, and this is the time to experiment and figure out what works, what doesn't, what has value, and what what doesn't. So it's really exciting.  

[01:52:43] Unknown:

So I had another question. Sorry.   No. Go ahead, Chaz. Go for it. How much of a pain in the ass and how long is it going to fucking take to get Taproot,   widely adopted was gonna be my question.  

[01:52:59] Unknown:

Holy shit. Hopefully, not another 4 years like we saw with the SegWit stuff from, say, entities   like,   hopefully   Oh,   like like blockchain. Right? Blockchain.com.   Yeah. This this has been really a tooth pulling for the SegWit stuff to be adapted widely.   Hopefully, it doesn't take more than a year or 2 this time around to see the Taproot stuff really be taken into account. But the same time, it also has, like, much different use cases.   Whereas something like   Segwit, native Segwit, they pretty much cut down on costs all around.   It's not necessarily the case for these new tap reader addresses. Like, I believe   it's more expensive   to send to them, but it's then cheaper to receive.  

So people really need to figure out the dynamics   around that as well. But,   I I feel as exchanges are, like, using stuff on 2nd layers, like lightning specifically,   in which Taproot is gonna provide them a lot of privacy,   you know, not leak out that information to their competitors and whatnot.   I think then when when there's these economic incentives,   for the actors themselves to be using them, then that helps facilitate things a lot more.   But also, you know, the the powerhouses in the space right now, I think they're more conscious of it. They're listening to their users more than say, like,   blockchain.com.  

Right?   And, you know, there's always gonna be stranglers.   Right?   There's always gonna be someone   some business that, you know, it doesn't make sense for them,   as far as engineering resources.   But I definitely feel that this time around, it's gonna be much better off.  

[01:54:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I think first, they they will have   the ones with actual benefits. So the ones providing service, the vaults, the multisix services,   etcetera. Probably, lightning, hopefully, will be not   too far behind. And then once you get a good amount of   adoption,   then you have the privacy services coming on board as well because they would need the anonymity set. They cannot be first. So then you can think of, like, you know, joint market adopting, hopefully,   hopefully, some ride up thing. Hopefully,   you know,   Wasabi,   probably, they have, like, their Wasabi   thing coming,   by then.  

And then   then,   you know, you will have a good chunk already.  

[01:55:45] Unknown:

Definitely.   Definitely. It's definitely gonna be the lightning people who, you know, they're the ones who stand to benefit the most from the privacy gains.   So definitely are gonna see it on the implementations like LND and c lightning,   before a lot of these other services. So absolutely.   Oh, man. We're coming up on 2 hours, folks. I think we're gonna call it soon. Yeah.   Yeah. I want  

[01:56:21] Unknown:

Did you think I I I was just thinking of one thing that, I've I've I've seen one pretty graph,   amongst amongst many,   which is the lightning the liquidity   increasing, you know, in the past couple   of weeks, months, maybe. Hell, hell, yeah.  

[01:56:39] Unknown:

Post like That's one graph that's going up into the right for sure. So we're we're definitely up in the all time high.   Like, that's that's why I'm in good spirits, folks. The the regular price doesn't really concern me as much. As long as that lightning liquidity is going up into the right, I'm a happy man.  

[01:56:56] Unknown:

Yep. And it's still just the public capacity.  

[01:56:59] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's the thing. It's like, how   what percent do you think is in private channels? Like, at least another 30%, I would say. Maybe maybe I'm I'm bullish on private channels there. But No. Yeah. At least 20%.   Right?  

[01:57:14] Unknown:

I think 30% was the pass is the pessimistic,   stake   of 30%   being in private channels of the public capacity   because that was in, like, you know, 20   18, was it, when they when the research   have done this kind of, analysis, and they've come out with this   very rough estimate?   Because you can't really tell if the if the private channels were closed in a cooperative way. You know? It it's it's actually not that not that straightforward to filter them filter all of them out.   But,   now, you know, you have plenty of services which are known to use large private networks. So, you know,   there might be exchanges, but we certainly know about, like, strike. We, which is, you know, must be, like, a significant participant of the network. And I wouldn't be surprised if it would be, you know, comparable to something like like Alan Big. I mean, okay. Maybe not, but, you know, there there is there is plenty of things which   which do work like that and other like, other service providers, like all the all the custody of wallets, all the all the kind of, you know, lightning gaming and, you know, such things. So to be able to have the buffer of liquidity   in case of, like, big   peaks of usage,   then   you must have private channels   already   and armed. Right? And that might be even   higher   for things. And for, like, for example, Stripe for sure, but for, like, other services as well, it might be higher,   than the public capacity.  

Just think of, like, services   running with   multiple nodes. You know, they they probably because there is no risk to them. Right? It's a 2 of 2 of 2 of their keys.   There's no risk to put, you know,   any you know, as much as they can afford,   into those private channels to have it just available anytime they need it.  

[01:59:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it it's not it's not zero not not zero risk, but minimal risk. I mean, it's a hot wallet. Right? You can still have things going on. But but and you also have to stake up the money ahead of time. Right? But, no, I definitely see   big enterprises, especially where they have, you   know, crucial relationships with each other, and they have these flows going a certain direction.   They're definitely gonna have private channels.   And they're gonna have these channels and not wanna broadcast them because they want liquidity in that direction for those crucial,   enterprise functions. Right? And they don't want other people just taking advantage of them for their own economic,   needs. Right? So they're gonna keep them private. They're gonna keep them between their counterparty and themselves.  

And they're gonna use it to settle their, you know, pretty much their scheduled transactions   and be able to save on fees because they only have to commit to the on chain fee ahead of time,   and on close. And, you know, if if it's a multitude of transactions, you know, 10, 25, 50 transactions,   saving so much money. So,   Yeah. I definitely think a lot of the private channels are not gonna be just users, trying to, you know, use Lightning more privately.   But, actually, there's big enterprises that wanna have these liquidity channels with their partners,   but they don't want people to just be using them willy nilly. Or, you know,   alternatively, they can just   broadcast higher fees so people don't use them. Like, maybe it's economically feasible   for other people to be using those channels as well as they're willing to pay the routing fee on it. But I think in a lot of cases, people will just wanna, like, not even disclose that relationship to the rest of the world and be like, okay. Our tree animal between each other each other, or it's just gonna stay private.  

So I think that's a great point.  

[02:01:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, if if you look at, like, the node behind, like, Moon Wallet, for example, right, or, like, Blue Wallet and things like that. You know, these are nodes which are not huge.   But but, I mean, their public capacity is, like,   what like, even some of them, like, lower than, like, lower than a Bitcoin. You know? It's, like, 1a half maybe. But, you know, you can imagine that they have, like, 10,000 users. Right? So,   there must be a lot of   liquidity behind   that, which   makes it, you know, possible to   work and not,   you know, not cause payment failures   when they, you know, people start to withdraw money or they try to try to,   you know, pay things en masse suddenly.  

So it would be very surprising to me if that would be the true kind of,   capacity which they have have on there. And and those are just, you know, a couple I've I've was able to spot.   And there are a lot of things like, you know, the loads of strike, for example, I I think they are not even known to me.   So there's plenty of that.  

[02:02:21] Unknown:

So, yeah, that network  

[02:02:23] Unknown:

is growing.  

[02:02:25] Unknown:

It's exciting stuff. We're definitely going the right direction. So,   like, excited to see more and more of you guys out on there, opening up channels,   using it. I know in Miami,   a good chunk of the transactions I saw with people transacting on lightning instead of on chain.   Hopefully, next year, all the vendors are accepting it. That would be a nice touch.   And, yeah, it's it's just gonna continue to to grow. I mean, now we've got a whole bunch more awesome user friendly solutions even for noobs   in the form of stuff like Moon and and Breeze.   You know, while the satoshi   and blue olive have been really big, custodial solutions. But now we have,   some solutions that are, you know, only somewhat custodial in   how they do their channel opens. And,   you know, in the next year, we're gonna see some stuff like Rust Lightning and that LDK   use way, way more.  

And people are gonna take, channel management into their own hands too. Just a matter of liquidity services coming up, education.   There's, like, a whole bunch of new UX   to the lightning network that, you know, a typical Bitcoin user   might not have been familiar with. So   a lot of challenges,   but glad to see them being addressed.   It's really awesome to see.   Just based on what we got, like, 1700  

[02:03:48] Unknown:

bitcoin. I was talking to Lightning Labs the other day or talking to Ryan Jen Gentry about,   kind of their, their predictions for how the lightning network will grow.   Just based on what we got, like, 1700   Bitcoin on the public lightning network capacity.   So if, if 10% of the transactions   on   main block,   what type of growth would be effective for the lightning network   as a whole?   And the the number that he threw out was about a 100 x growth for, the Lightning Network.   So but I haven't, gotten to verify that myself.  

[02:04:33] Unknown:

Yeah. So then at that point, the real challenge is I think, lying, like, routing. Like,   how do you route when there's so many damn hops? And   are there services that that take over that route calculation?   What exactly happens there? So it's gonna be interesting to see what scaling problems arise at that point. But Just shy of he has something like a 100 x growth.   That would be unbelievable.   And hell, like, we're we're at really low capacity now. Does anyone have offhand have the   public capacity of the Lightning Network right now? It's   I'm gonna go to   oh, sorry. Go ahead.  

I was gonna go to Clark Moody's dashboard. Shouts to Clark.   Great bit  

[02:05:17] Unknown:

I was just checking it. It's just shy of 1700 Bitcoin on the public lightning network.  

[02:05:26] Unknown:

I see. I see.   Yeah. That's only, like   well, I mean, our price has just created the last 2 months. But, yeah, that's just, 52,000,000.   Right? Damn.   Wow. Yeah. Those are rookie numbers.   Well, let's pump those up. Let's let's get a cool, 5,000,000,000   on there,   and   we'll talk from there.  

[02:05:52] Unknown:

You first, dude.  

[02:05:56] Unknown:

I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm, you know, I'm I'm gonna   we're getting pretty close over at Kraken. So now I'm getting to the stage where it's like, okay. Let's let's put some real money on this. So,   I'm not sure Jesse will say, okay. Here's 5,000,000,000.   But, you know, if we if we could pump up those those numbers in the right direction, that would be nice.   Oh, man.   Guys, honestly, I'm I'm getting beat. It's been a good 2 hours.   If we bring up anyone else who might have a question real quick and   we call this our apps in the next 10 or 15 minutes.   Alright.  

Let's do it. So anyone else, in the room who wants to come up, ask question to anyone,   feel free. You could send a request over here on spaces.   If not, then I'm just gonna probably   have, my buddy, Ty Kawamoto come up and   tell   the story with me about how,   we were dealing with a bonds broker this weekend,   at our buddy Zach's house.   It was pretty much 7v1.   This guy who was a bond broker   versus, like, pretty   pretty hardcore   Bitcoin or 7 of us.   And,   yeah, it was it was a bloodbath.   It was mainly my fault because I was just hammered. I was just off my gourd,   and I ended up yelling at the guy.  

But   we we were never gonna flip this guy anyway.   Hi. Ty, come on. Come up, buddy, for one sec. Come come say hi.   You know, the freaks loved your dispatch appearance, and and they want as much of you as they could get.   Ty, come on. It's peer pressure. 3 hours. There we go. What's up, Ty?   Yeah. That was a crazy weekend, man. I was, we were off on camera. But, yeah, it was kinda crazy because, like, we were, like, what? Like, 3 hours   into drinking.   Was that before or after we had all those shots?   No. No.   I was just like, oh, man. That was just like a train wreck. We got the shots after. I'm like, okay, guys. I hate the train wreck. We drank so much that the timeline got Yeah. The timeline got a little bit messed up. Yeah. No. He he was like a legit dollar maxi,   to the point where, like, he was I think at one point, he was, like, defending the military industrial complex, like the petrothalvin.  

He's like, this you you know, the the dollar system is supported   by, our, our military our glorious military or something like that. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?   Like, did that really happen, or am I just making that up?   Yeah. And he got really defensive about it. You're you were you said in jest, you're like, oh, what a noble cause. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, I didn't say noble. I didn't say noble. This guy's putting words in my mouth. He was, like, jumping from, like, 1 to a 100. Yeah.   But,   yeah, it was just the wrong room for a bond broker to to walk into.  

You know, it was a it was a really good crew of us. So we had Pedro,   the real Pedro, I will say, not the fake Pedro. Not McCormick, Pedro. Like, Pedro, Pedro.   Yeah. We had a man. We had, the business guy is there.   Wiz, Steve, and Simon were there.   Obviously,   you. Yep. Who else was there? It's a good crew   in that room. I mean, obviously, like, Zach and   And and uncle uncle uncle Zach was in there for a bit. Oh, uncle Zach. He's in the room then. Yeah. He's, he's great.   Yeah. It was just it was just ridiculous.   But,   you know, despite that, you know, we we definitely didn't flip the guy. No. But he did make make an interesting comment that I I thought was really funny. Like,   despite our our difference on the views of, like, bonds and dollars and Bitcoin,   and despite the fact that he thought that Bitcoin had the potential to destroy the planet and the environment,   he still despite that, he still thought   it was a good idea to allocate   up to 5% of your portfolio   in Bitcoin. And when I hear stories like that, with people who are so entrenched in the fiat monetary system,   I know that we're winning and I it gives me so much hope. Oh my god. I just wanted to share that I wanted to share that story with everyone. I I thought it was hilarious   despite me sort of just being a drunken mess with this guy.  

It just really   was a great illustration of the strides that are being made despite us   losing 50% of our value in 2 moms,   despite all the things that are going on and the affinity schemes and all the shit coin are still going on. Like, we're making strides in the right direction,   that are ultimately gonna change   the course of humanity and and the world. It's incredible. Oh, great. 100%. Yeah. That was, that was such a bullish conversation. He   was he was, like, a dollar maxi. Like,   I I've I've never seen anybody like that. Like, maybe, like, Joe Weisenbaum,   like,   level. Maybe even, like, you can burst. But Yeah. Man, I mean and and still he says 5% allocation. So how bullish is that?  

Yeah. It was unbelievable. That was definitely one of the highlights of the night.   Yeah. And then then from there, we proceeded to get really drunk.   We went out to 2 bars. It was great hanging with y'all. I love you. That was fun. Yeah. I see Zach there. Thanks, Zach. It was a good time as usual, and, can't wait to do that again.   Absolutely.   Alright. So, I don't think we're topping that. So on that note, I got we we gotta call it here. I wanna thank everyone who, got it. Oh, actually, hold up. We got we got John's in. We'll get John's in real quick because I love John's. He's a great contributor to the community. He's been helping out some on the Zeus redesign.   What's up, John's?  



[02:12:11] Unknown:

Anything you wanna add? Oh, well, if you're gonna end it on that, I think might as well do that because it was a Josh. Yeah. Can you hear me?  

[02:12:20] Unknown:

Yeah.   John, just just shouts to you, man. Thanks for hopping on the stage. Next time we do one of these rips, you gotta come on, and then we gotta rip more. Definitely. Maybe maybe on lightning Friday,   I think we're gonna do, Chaz, what time are we doing on Fridays? We do 4 PM? Yeah. 4 PM EST.   4 PM EST. Back on Twitter spaces, we'll be at it. Hopefully, Citadel dispatch is back on its, normal programming next week. This has been fun, but I'm sure I wanna do it every week despite me be doing so many episodes.   Yeah. This has been awesome. Thank you all. Thanks to Jessica   and for recording.  

Thanks for Chaz for asking great questions.   OpenNoms for telling us all about the joint market and his efforts there.   Ty for the story. Rodolfo for   all his insights about Canada and,   CoinKite and all that stuff. And, of course, everyone tuning in and supporting and listening, the freaks that are huddling, the freaks that are building.   I appreciate y'all.   And, on that note,   I call it here and and do my little intro outro music. So,   cheers, freaks.  

[02:13:34] Unknown:

Thanks. Thanks, all. Bye bye.  

[02:13:36] Unknown:

And a world governing body   will be created to enforce them.   Crises   precipitate   change.  

[02:17:03] Unknown:

I wanna divide the virus to bring dire   That's it for this week, freaks,   junkies,   all y'all.   Love you. Have a good one.