Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 0.2.2

BLOCK: 684116

PRICE: 2311 sats per dollar

TOPICS: lightning network

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Back to just talking about,   where Bitcoin is. Because when you remember when it ran up to 14,000   and then pulled back to about 9,000? You said, yeah. No. That got a little bit out. I wish I'd sold some. At 14 Yeah. You copped to that. You got in trouble.   The stackers all wrote in. Novogratz says, you know, paper hands or whatever the heck they're called. Alright. Now you're you've got the 62.   Now we're at 45.   What are your hands feeling like? Are they paper? Are they how come you're not doing the same thing? Why aren't you saying, you know what? I've made 10 times my money. Why don't I get out and then stack when it comes down back down to 20? So you must not think it's going back to 20. I I think 40 should hold. You know, I think we're gonna be at a 40 to 55 range for a while. We'll consolidate, and then we'll have another leg up. And I say that not just by guessing. We see institutions  

[00:00:49] Unknown:

moving in, and it takes them a while. Right?   UBS, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan,   almost every bank is on their way into their wealth channels.   They're not there yet. They're getting set up. They're getting their funds ready. And so you think about just Morgan Stanley for a second. Right?   With 2013, 14, I think I was, like, the lone Wall Street guy screaming about Bitcoin.   Morgan Stanley just trained 4,000   financial advisors   to sell Bitcoin. And so we're gonna have these armies of newly   anointed   prophesizers,   salesmen, who have learned the the technology, have learned why it's important in your portfolio,   all going out to the bulk of wealth in America, 50 to 80 year olds, and I think that's gonna have an impact.  

It doesn't have a overnight. You would you would stack at 40. You would start I would stack at 40.  

[00:02:16] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.   Last time we did one of these, last Bitcoin Tuesday,   we were we were up a humble   13 and a half $1,000 from where we are today.   It's been a 24%   decrease   week over week since last Bitcoin Tuesday. Hope you guys are all huddling in there, and,   you didn't get to let your ego get to you too much, and you you weren't leveraged, and and you didn't get blown the fuck out.   Because if that's the case, then you're in Stackers Paradise right now, accumulating some cheap sets.   Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software   coming to you every Tuesday.  

This is our 22nd   episode.   Very excited about it.   To those coming in through our audio streams,   what there are 2 podcast feeds.   That was our boy, Joe Kernan, on CNBC talking with Novogratz,   about stacking the dip   and about weekends.   Novo is a bit of a shit corner, no doubt, but, it's always good to see that kind of talk on mainstream media. It's pretty funny how it is permeated everywhere.   As always, I just wanna do a big shout out to the rider die freaks that are here in the live chat and that have supported the show.   Couldn't do without you guys. You guys are what it's about.  

You really make, Bitcoin Tuesdays really special to me. So so thank you to all you guys, especially   if you're coming in through the podcasting 2 point o.   The streaming stats is really fucking cool. We're gonna talk about that a little bit on the show,   but if you haven't checked that Breeze app, like, the the the Breeze app is   is you really see the future there. You can really see the future of of being able to stream value directly to content creators,   rather than this ad model that is just, like, proliferated everywhere.   So, definitely check that out if you haven't.  

I also wanna do a big shout out to our boy, Jack Mahler's   living legend.   He set up the Indy race car. We're gonna have a Bitcoin race car, car number 21,   at the Indy 500 this weekend.  

[00:04:29] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. He,  

[00:04:31] Unknown:

completely   turned down any actual strike branding on the race car, So it's going to be completely Bitcoin branded,   and they're accepting donations that will go to open source development.   So it's a really fantastic initiative. We had, I think, Michael Sailor pledged $250,000   the other day,   today earlier today.   So pressure all,   your businesses   in the Bitcoin community to to step up to the plate and support open source development in probably the most baller fucking way possible, which is with a really fast fucking race car,   in front of a 144,000   people in Indianapolis.  

And   I've been supporting it as well. You can support it at strike dot me slash racing.   Any any donations that come in through the lnurl,   QR code on the bottom left hand of the screen, if you're watching the video stream throughout this stream,   will be split 5050   with the with the race car. So,   just trying to do my part   to help this initiative. It's a really fucking great initiative, and it really aligns well with the work we've been doing at opensats dotorgandalsobitcoindevilist.com.   So I'm really excited about that.   With all that said, this is Citadel dispatch 22.  

We have Evan Kaludis returning   for his 5th show.  

[00:05:52] Unknown:

Oh, man.   What's up, Briggs? Glad to be back.  

[00:05:55] Unknown:

One of our resident lightning junkies, so it was important that he was here for the show. Last last week, if if you missed it, you should go and check it out, but there was a very deep dive into lightning privacy,   with our boy Anthony and Open Arms. So we're gonna do the same fucking thing again. It's gonna be another really deep fucking show,   on lightning and and just continue that path, And and we're fortunate enough to have Fiat Jaffe here with us who,   is someone I've admired a lot on the Internet,   but I never heard his voice till today, so it's really exciting to have him on the show. What's up, Fiat, Jeff?  



[00:06:29] Unknown:

Hey. What's up?   Very for inviting me. Yeah. Very prolific lightning developer.  

[00:06:36] Unknown:

So really excited. The other thing that I wanted to mention before we jump into this is that I've been updating Citadel dispatch.com,   and now all of the episodes are up there with embedded videos and searchable transcripts. I   have continued my trend of just losing money doing this show, so I put another 1,000,000 sats into automated   AI transcripts, which to be quite honest, aren't that good, but it's pretty fucking cool that you can search through all of the episodes.   And I'm going to be going through those and trying to edit them and refine them because they have, like, these tools that I could do that for. But in the meantime,   all 22 episodes of dispatch are easily searchable on dispatch.com,   so   pretty fucking cool.  

So with all that said, I mean, I I guess, you know, let's let's you know, people pretend that they're in it for the tech, but we gotta talk about what's on everyone's mind.   Is Bitcoin dead? Are we going to 0? Is it all over? And why did Elon fuck us?  

[00:07:36] Unknown:

That's a loaded question. Well, Matt, right to it.   Yeah, man. It's been a really crazy week.   You know, I I know a lot of hodlers are having their net worth fluctuate.   A lot of people without faith just selling and letting go of their whole bags.   You know, it's a little overblown, to be honest. And, you know, of course, mister Musk isn't helping   with his bullshit, but, at the same time,   just kind of,   drawbacks   or,   you know, sort of par for the course. Look to 2017   even. What we we drew back, like,   4 or 5 times like this, 30% plus.   And, I think people also need to take into account that taxes were due past couple weeks. Right? So there's gonna always be a lot of people   just offloading their bags just to pay the bills, especially if there's, you know, traders in,  

[00:08:33] Unknown:

this field. What so you think, like, people are panic selling their Bitcoin, like, the day before tax day when they realize how much taxes they owe? I I think there's a lot of people that don't plan in advance.  

[00:08:43] Unknown:

That's for sure.   But, you know, it's also not,   we also can't neglect, you know, all the rhetoric and and the post from Elon this week. Of course, that shook a lot of people out. You know?   It's hard to deny,   how much we pumped when Tesla said they were adding to their books.   So that's obviously a factor too.  

[00:09:07] Unknown:

But I think we are like, the the the the fall of the price is not that big. I don't know because I'm not following that much. So   but but if if it if you were at 5,000 and you drop to 4,000,   it wouldn't be a   very large dip. Right? So   this what happened now wasn't isn't that big.   And Elon Elon put us on a new level,   and we we didn't drop drop from that from that level yet. So  

[00:09:38] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I think, you know, people love to put,   and I kind of set you guys up with the question. I just think it's funny that I just got all these people reaching out to me, like, texting me, like, like, what the fuck is Elon doing? Like, what a fucking asshole,   what a douchebag. It was like I I said to a friend, it was almost like their best they found out their best friend, like, slept with their fiance.   You know? Like, they were, like, so betrayed. I'm like, guys, like, what the fuck did you expect? Like, he's never been a stable person. Like like, who who who thought, like It's not even just that he's not a stable person. It's, like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, think about it. Like, Tesla  

[00:10:13] Unknown:

doesn't make money off their cars. Right? He has one of the poorest run,   alternative energy companies, right, in,   whatever, his panel company.   And SpaceX is is a darling for government subsidies as well. Right?   These are the kind of people that are gonna suffer the most   post hyperbitcoinization.   So it it should leave,   it should be a surprise that that an individual like this   is working to forward Bitcoin   and, you know, trying to hold on to that sweet, sweet subsidy for as long as he can.  

[00:10:53] Unknown:

But I just wanted to just add here. I mean, if you look at   in in in bull markets,   and bear markets, people just like trying to find explanations for price drops.   But this is a thing that is just natural. It is gonna happen. Bitcoin is a truly scarce asset,   and as a result, as it's going through its adoption phase, you tend to have these, you know, rapid increases   and then decreases,   you know, where it's just trying to find its support level. It's like there's no way for it to really go up,   in a smooth fashion because it's just, like, almost like pure chaos. And I so I have a chart on the on the screen for the people on the on the video streams,   from Glassnode from Glassnode's weekly, report. And as you can see on this thing, like, we had massive draw downs last in 2017 too. Like, people after the fact will pretend, you know, staying humble and stacking stats was the easy mood mode, and that anyone could have huddled and that we were all fucking lucky.  

But there was a lot of shit your pants stumps that happened,   in 2017.   Mhmm. And there's gonna be a lot more that happened this time, and it's just that now we're at such a higher number. You know? A 23% drop is $14,000.   Like, that's not nothing. Right? Like, that's absolute   terms,   I could see it scaring more people.   So that was our our daily Bitcoin price talk, and now we can jump into the tech that everyone cares about. Yeah. Fuck Elon.   Yeah. I mean, the the moral of the story is that Elon is wanted to make sure that the whole world knows that he's still short Bitcoin. So But but it it should be a lesson. Like, we shouldn't simp for  

[00:12:37] Unknown:

any billionaires,   you know, none the   no. We shouldn't send for any billionaires, and definitely don't send for any cantillionaires   that are, you know, just just drunk off of the government spigot.  

[00:12:50] Unknown:

We have full time Bitcoin in, in the comments. He's our resident,   Tesla freak. He's obsessed with Tesla, so   he he wants everyone to know to fuck Elon, but not fuck SpaceX.   I don't know why he's making that distinction. I mean, I'm I'm kinda excited for Starlink. I think Starlink could be very useful to us.   I would never get a Tesla period though because it's, like, a horrible fucking car for privacy. And,   don't get me started on that. And, like and you have, like you just automatic imagine automatic updates to a car car, like, the thing is, like, going, like, 80 miles an hour and just getting automatic updates.   Scare the shit out of me.  

I hope one day  

[00:13:35] Unknown:

bad on the oil pipeline. Like, what if you get ransomware on your car? What if you're not driving it? What if your wife and kids are driving it? The best excuse if you're late to a meeting, you know, my car got ransomware ed.  

[00:13:48] Unknown:

The I hope that that some rich Bitcoin or at some point in the future creates, like, a luxury private car company,   you know, that has no computer in it. It's just, like, got a, you know, regular combustion engine in it, and just put this a nice car that's privacy focused. That would be the ideal for me. Because, like, right now, I feel like I have to buy a 20 year old car,  

[00:14:08] Unknown:

if I don't want a computer in it. Or at least a hardening service, you know, like,   drop my Tesla off and, like, chop that up. Like, let me get a couple of, firewalls in there, you know, some ways of verifying what's going on there, and, you know, cut off the core function from the web.  

[00:14:25] Unknown:

I'm told that updates aren't automatic.   So live corrections are the best part of the show or one of the best parts of the show. Okay. So For now, they're not automatic. So they For now.   Yeah. I mean, they're not automatic. Right? But it's closed source, and no one's verifying it before they click the update button. So who the fuck? It doesn't really matter. If you press the accelerator,  

[00:14:46] Unknown:

it updates. It's it's your constant.  

[00:14:54] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   that was a very important Bitcoin discussion. I'm really glad we had it.   And I think let's just, you know so this this   dispatch is all about dispatch   is all about actionable Bitcoin discussions. So the idea is,   I want us to focus on things that Bitcoiners can actually,   you know, use in their day to day basis more so than, big picture things. But,   since I have you, I'd I,   you know, I I   I think we'll   ignore that aspect just for the beginning here, and I'm kind of curious, big picture.   You've been, you know, really focused on lightning development specifically.   Are you   you know, the 2 year, 3 year outlook for lightning, are you bullish on it? Are you bearish on it? You know, what is your what are your thoughts there? Should should Bitcoiners,   Bitcoiners seem to be very hyped about lightning right now. Is that is that hype properly placed, or is it mis  

[00:15:56] Unknown:

placed? I think it's it's properly placed, but I'm not sure for the the same reasons. I I I I bullish I'm bullish on lightning, but   I'm I'm bullish on more like a a network and less like a trustless   pure payments through channels thing. Like,   I think I think Bitcoin will have other forms of transferring there there there will be more other forms of transferring Bitcoin,   and I think Lightning is the   is the the the base for should be the base for all these like, if someone comes up with another protocol,   we should integrate integrate it into Lightning,   and   Lightning will be this this network that connects everything,   including custodial services and   other   stuff.  

So I'm I'm bullish on it because of that.  

[00:16:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think,   I I I think we tend to be on the same page there from what you just said.   You know, one interesting aspect,   is that a lot of light and you just mentioned it, the word custodial. I mean, a lot of developers,   frown on anything custodial related.   But I feel like you've kind of leaned into it.   Do you want to, like, do in a lot of ways, I feel like lightning   I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I, like, I feel like lightning   really works well as, like, interoperable custodial wallets.   This idea where you can have, like, a bunch of little custodial wallets with   varied trust models, and they can all interact with each other in an open way.  



[00:17:35] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:17:36] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That that's what I think too, like, since a long time.   When people I I people use it to say, like they still say, like, if you if you're going if you're going to use a custodial wallet, better use PayPal.   But this this argument is stupid because PayPal is not using Bitcoin.   And then they say, oh, so use Coinbase. But Coinbase is a closed thing. You're you're stuck inside there, and they they own you if you're there. But if you're using a a custodial   service that's interactive lightning,   then it's open. And then anyone can join other custodial service. Like, competition,   makes things better. Like,   we don't have to have trustless everything. We we need the trustless option,   but the the market,   the free market of of services   still works very well for most things.  

So also for money transferring.   So do   you think,  

[00:18:32] Unknown:

do you think the average user should be using their own Lightning node when they interact with Lightning?  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

Well, I think they should for now if they are willing to   to   if they they want to understand it, they they must run a a node to to see it go it happening and so on. But I I don't think most people   are up for this. Like, they they don't care.   And and so I think   the people that care and the people that understand should strive to create an an environment   in which the people that don't care don't get trapped inside Coinbase.   They can get trapped inside   a a more open   thing.   Does that make sense?  

[00:19:17] Unknown:

Well, I mean, let's talk about so so right now, I have this lnurl   on the bottom left hand corner,   and it uses your LNTX   bot, which   is a Telegram bot, but   I feel like it does that doesn't go far enough. It it's it's a full fledged lightning wallet   that runs inside of the Telegram app, which is already installed by, well, I don't know, like, a couple billion people probably.   And it's got tons and tons of features in it, including this static donation   QR code that allows anyone to just scan it whether it's during the show or later, and it goes it goes right to my wallet. Now that wallet is custodial though,   and, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. The main reason it it's custodial is because it makes it way easier for you to implement those features. Right? In, like, a UX friendly way.  



[00:20:09] Unknown:

Well, the the actual way it's custodial is because I didn't know how to do it, like, differently when I did it.   But, yeah, if if it wasn't custodial, it would require people to run software   and connect to the bot, and no one would do it. So  

[00:20:27] Unknown:

But let's talk about the risk. Right? The risk is that you run away with my money,   and or that   there's there's some kind of pressure and you have to require KYC.   So   both of those get mitigated   if you just use it with less amount of money. Right? I mean, that's basically the argument. Right? It's like if if you if you run away if you if you decide to do an exit scam on this wallet,   you know, I'll lose 50 or $60 or whatever, and I'll just call it a day and call it even.  

[00:20:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   I think I think   yeah. I think that's   exact.   For this for this custodial wallets,   you should put low money on it. It's all fine.   It's it's just weird. People running nodes to to you you start a full lightning node and open channels just   to transact   $5 on it. It's not it's not good investment.  

[00:21:24] Unknown:

And it's weird because, like, you know, we go deep into the weeds on this show. I mean, dispatch   freaks are you know, I think they're   they're very enthusiastic   about Bitcoin. They're very focused on Bitcoin, on best practices.   Most of them are probably using their own nodes.   But then you have, like, wake up calls where, you know, I had Keydominer and MBK on the show. You know, they're both highly technical people,   very educated Bitcoiners, and they both admitted you know, Keydomen who runs a lightning service, they both admitted that their favorite wallet to use was Wallet of Satoshi, which is a custodian mobile wallet.   So I feel like there's this massive disconnect between, like, the geeks in the space   and reality. Right? And no one really discusses it, so I kinda like that. I think dispatch should be able to bridge that gap.  

Yeah. I I just I I there there's definitely a role here for custodial wallets, and to say otherwise is just ignoring the reality. Right?  

[00:22:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think when if you're talking about,   building bridges,   I think 11   the biggest problem with Custodial is the privacy,   not that someone will steal,   $10 for a new for new like, the the privacy is much worse because   I can't see all transactions from everybody   on LNTX, but and that's bad.   But the the solution to this is that the,   hosted hosted channels thing. Have you ever heard about that?  

[00:22:55] Unknown:

Well, let's talk about that.  

[00:22:59] Unknown:

Yeah. The hosted channels is   is a protocol that   uses the same lightning   base, like, the the same communication channels,   and   you you you just do something similar to to Lightning.   It's it's a channel with amounts and so on and balances, but you the the the client doesn't doesn't   control the money. The money stays on the on the host side.   So it's a it's a custodial service, but it's fully private because the the host doesn't know what where you're sending the payments to and   basically   Now this is currently implemented on BLW on Android. Is that right? Yeah. It's currently implemented on BLW. And the server side, there's a, it's it's running on a clear for for Intel, which is my pseudonym.   Just kidding.  

And now and now Antl is making a new wallet   that's much better, much cleaner, I think,   and with the with the Immorton library.   And releasing a plug in to   for anyone to run it run the the the server side on their a clear note easily. So there there could be a a bunch of different custodians   hosting these these channels.   And also, I'm I'm planning on finishing, like,   getting my work done and making a plug in for c lightning tool to support this. If I find that 15 that that that extra hour in the day, I will do it.  

[00:24:36] Unknown:

Yes. I think that BLW is a pretty interesting model.   So, you know, you have those hosted channels   that are indeed custodial,   but,   for more pressing stuff or, you know, when you can't find a route, you're able to have your own channel opened up,   you know, to make those connections that are you know, those payments that are more private and to the branch you wanna make. And you can have a wallet with different channels different hosted channels to different hosts. Like and  

[00:25:07] Unknown:

you don't   your money doesn't sit all in one place. And you'll then then you send NPP payments splitting over these different   hosted   channels. It's very private. It's very, very, like, very private.   And   I think it's I think it's a very good model,   and no one's talking about it.  

[00:25:28] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's definitely underrated and has a lot of interesting qualities to it. And, yeah, I think it's only gonna get more interesting as we have more providers like this that offer hosted channels   as,   you know, more different wallet implementations,   have support for it.   And furthermore, down the line,   as far as, like, protocol stuff goes, is routing is split up and sees a whole bunch of innovations,   then things start getting really interesting.  

[00:25:56] Unknown:

So the simple summary of the hosted the hosted channel's trade off is   they can't   they you you you you don't have custodial privacy, but they can still steal your funds. Right?  

[00:26:09] Unknown:

Yeah.   Mhmm.   Actually, I think you should call them credit channels. I I don't understand why   custodial is bad, but credit is good on the on the mainstream,   like   a finance   world.   Credit is okay. You don't pay taxes for credit, but you   the government goes against you. You should do custodian stuff.  

[00:26:32] Unknown:

But, so so you we when we when we have you know, there's there there's it's an interesting nuance here. Right? Because   you have   a privacy concern with your custodian,   I mean, if we're not talking hosted channels,   but   in a lot of ways, you get   better external privacy if that custodian is a trusted source. If that that custodian is not working against you if the custodian is working against you, you have, obviously, you have worse privacy.   But if the custodian is attempting to protect your privacy,   then you have in in a lot of situations, you might have better privacy. Like, one of the things I think is interesting about Bitcoin On   Chain is, historically, we've had a ton of custodial wallets, and they've all, like, failed. So people have moved, you know, to pretty much the default is noncustodial.  

Right? Like, it's a it's it's a very rare day   where you have, like, a mobile wallet that has custodial on chain. We still have that in lightning, and, you know, we have 61 and 2 in the comments. I think one of the main concerns I have with something like Wallet or Satoshi   or Blue Wallet is it's not very clear that it's a custodial wallet.   Yeah. What the risks are and what the trade offs are. But we've seen on chain, like, people have moved to pretty much self custody by default.   And as a result, all of a sudden on chain privacy techniques are more important. Right? Because if you're,   and I already I I see people realizing this even if they don't admit it when they, like, try and pay me from strike or cash app because they don't want me to,   you know, see what their balances are. So they they rely on the custodian to protect their privacy for them,   which I just think is just an interesting   it's an interesting thing that happened that no one really talks about is that was this move from from custodial   dominating to non custodial and and the impact it had on on chain privacy?  



[00:28:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I I was not following the Bitcoin space   at the   at this period   when people use it. We still do on chain wallets.   So I don't really know it. This thing about,   not show sharing your balances is, like, to the peep to the person you're paying, this is not talking about very much, like, in this   every time someone talks about privacy,   no one talks about this or maybe I'm missing it. The joint market has a good solution to it. You can pay someone   while doing a coin join with the exact amount, so it fixes that.   But yes.  

Yeah. But with LightningAid, it's it's much more   it's much harder to to move to a no custodial   setup.  

[00:29:08] Unknown:

So So what do you what do you think keep smaller amounts.   I mean, the the big thing I think with non custodial Lightning is channel management. There's this concept of channel management. I think it kinda goes hand in hand with how hard it is to conceptualize UTXO management to begin with,   in coin control. Like, this is something that we're always   harping on and very focused on in this space,   but   it it it's   UTXO management is, like, a very hard thing for people to grasp, and as a result, I feel like lightning channel management is also has this this   this,   speed bump. It's a hurdle to try and understand it.  

And that's kind of where the custodial wallets come into play. Before I get there, 6102 is saying it was always dominated by non custodial wallets.   I mean, I would push back there. What I'm suggesting is, you know, stuff like   like Silk Road, for instance, was a completely custodial product,   that had a built in mixer, and and the users of Silk Road,   were relying on that custodial privacy to provide them privacy.   But   so so I'm talking about from that angle or or any of the exchanges that were non KYC, stuff like BTCE   that existed for the longest fucking time,   or MintPal or Cripsy or whatever. I don't know. All the fucking shit coin casinos that that had no KYC.  

Those are all custodial wallets. But, anyway, I'm getting derailed.   Fiat, Jeff, I'm curious. So so we're talking about UTXO management, channel   management.   One thing we've talked about a lot in this show is   the uncle Jim model. This idea   where you have, like, a friend or family member, in this case, his his name's uncle Jim,   and he runs the node for the family.   And he has, like, you know, 25 or 30 people that he's custodial on top of,   that he you know, he's their he's their Bitcoin friend or Bitcoin uncle.   Samura implement this with their QR code pairing with the node, but that's obviously not lightning, and we've seen BlueWallet implement it recently,   on the lightning side. So BlueWallet defaults to custodial,   but it it runs on LND hub. So if you run LND hub on your Raspberry Blitz or your Umbrel,   or I think my note as well,   you can then be the uncle Jim,   and you can have,   you can have friends or family connect to you, and they don't have to deal with any channel management or anything. You deal   you know, trade off wise, or   is   that something that you think is just a complete waste of time? You know, trade off wise, or is that something that you think is just a complete waste of time?  



[00:31:53] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I think that's that's a good thing good thing for the future and for now. Yeah. I see it happening. I see people on the LNB's   Telegram chat asking about how to set up the LND Hub plug in   so they can host for friends and family.   And,   yeah, I I since a long time ago, I I I thought about this too, and I think it's a good model.   I think the the   the model for with with hosted channels, anyone being able to to run their own hosted channel server,   that's good too for this this specific case to the oncogene   stuff. So   yeah. Yeah.  

I think this is the way the way future   is this.   This and other other scene other things that the the good thing about Lightning is this. You can have the Uncle g model. You can have the completely   running your own stuff model. You can have the big exchange bank model, everything together.   And also people running   lightning on lightning on some liquid   and other side chains.  

[00:33:01] Unknown:

What are your thoughts here, Evan? I mean, you're the lead maintainer of a completely noncustodial,   non uncle Jim.   User own node wallet?  

[00:33:11] Unknown:

Yes. So   I really do want to support   uncle g model. Right? LND does have support for the uncle g   model.   So we have support for LND hub.   You can   download Zeus and use that if you want.   We auto generate the blue wall in lnd hub server, but we encourage everyone to,   you know, if possible, find an uncle Jim to connect to and use their   note. In fact, we're doing some work right now. We have some work in right now to fix the connection for LD Hubs that are behind Tor. So, like, let's say you use an Umbrel, and that's on Tor by default.   The next release of Zeus is gonna make sure that that's all ironed out.  

And, if you're an uncle Jim   and you've got a node that's running on Tor, you're running that LND Hub blue   wallet server service   behind Tor,   Zeus is gonna be able to accommodate people using that. So,   I I think that   there's some limitations with what you can do with LND hub.   Obviously, you're not gonna get the fully featured   set of features like key send or channel management   or messaging   of that stuff. But to onboard people onto the Lightning Network, it's a great solution.   And if we want   this to be viable and and for this to be more common and,   you know, for for real   commercial solutions, like, with big corporations running stuff,   to not be the the default.  

You know? Freaks have to go out there   and run it themselves and and try to onboard their friends and family.   Let's make this the way that people experience Lightning Network for the first time.   There's so much more,   you know, it's so much easier to go to your friend, your buddy, your uncle Jim than to, you know, file a support ticket at this big corporation that you hope is inevitably gonna be looked at   and, you know,   centralizing   risk. You you you don't want these big honeypots of people's info   to, you know, keep growing and collecting people's data and,   you know,   be there to be subpoenaed by federal government.  



[00:35:39] Unknown:

But are we  

[00:35:41] Unknown:

like, I I see I see why it's ideal.   I mean, look. Bitcoin doesn't have a support department or marketing department.   A show like this, you know, we can hit thousands of users, but thousands of people, but, like, it can't scale to,   you know, educating 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000.   The only way it really scales if   was, like, each of each of the freaks, you know, goes and   and, you know, helps 10 of their friends and family, and and they have tons of 10 of their friends and family. And then that's how I, like, see it scaling.   But, like, are we biased? Like   like,   I wasn't around you know, I'm a youngin'.  

I wasn't around during, you know,   when com computers and the Internet were starting to become a thing.   But, like, some of the old timers that have been around, they told me, you know, like, this was the model that they were talking about back in the day.   Like, the Internet was gonna be,   you know, your your uncle Jim was gonna run the mainframe computer in, like, his garage,   and everyone was gonna connect to it. And instead, what happened was economies of scale just centralized it all into,   you know, Google, Apple, Microsoft,   Amazon,   Twitter, Twitch. Right? Like, it it centralized it all into these these giant clouds these cloud services.  



[00:37:00] Unknown:

But that trend is just being bucked now. Like, home computing is becoming so   practical and so much cheaper. And   you know what it really is? It's like people realize the terrors of   what can go wrong when you trust these centralized entities with your data. Like, the average person is starting to, you know, come to terms with the amount of control that Google and Apple   and Microsoft, etcetera, all have.   And,   you know, now now that we have these solutions,   in, you know,   cheap   hardware and and free open source software,   Like, people are starting to explore. I mean, it's it's not gonna be your your grandma that sets one of these off.  

But, you know, for the people who are willing to do their own research and   figure out how all these things work,   it's it's more practical than ever.   And, you know, it's it's it's not inherently by the default design of the Internet that that these things would happen and become centralized. It's like a hub and spoke model. You know? Like like, the Internet's   built to route around these traffic jams. And to be sort of centralized entities are   sort of anomalous.   And, you know, hopefully, the the move   the movement keeps running, and,   you know, people take things into their own hands.  

And, you know, we we need to try to make sure in the Bitcoin community   that we don't get to that centralized,   really   highly centralized model. Like, we wanna try to avoid that   instead of having to undo it.  

[00:38:34] Unknown:

I think, like, the Internet has survived   in in the sense that you can still   go to the Unfolding or run your own stuff model today.  

[00:38:44] Unknown:

Uh-huh.  

[00:38:45] Unknown:

And even if the the majority of people are are using the centralized service, and they they can they can migrate   off now like they're doing.   And so if if you can do that on Bitcoin and Lightning, I think we're safe. Like, as long as it's possible to to to jump   off, we're fine. The the bad thing would be if the centralized big providers just made themselves incompatible with everything else, and   then they trapped everybody.   But if it if that doesn't happen,   it's still okay.   Yeah.   I saw I saw a question on the chat, but it it vanished.   Someone asking   if if you're if you're not liable for hosting the the funds of your friends and family.  

I think I think I don't know if you are liable or not. I don't know the the laws, but I think this question is   is I see it happening everywhere. Like, everybody's too afraid of being liable to to stuff.   I'm not sure that's the correct mentality. I think we shouldn't like, if if everybody if if a ton of people are running nodes and   for for their friends and family, the government won't be able to track everybody.   So  

[00:39:58] Unknown:

This is total cock mentality. I'm sorry to butt in, but, like, if you're gonna have the government have to dictate every private relationship you have, then you've already lost the plot. You know? Like, we're we're trying to build a world of voluntary interaction.   If you can't make it up, you don't wanna take on that risk and help advance this technology and make life easier for your friends and family because of legal liability,   yeah, you're already cooked. I'm sorry.  

[00:40:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted to say, but not in these words.   So that's it. We have to step up and and take some risk, I think, for the benefit of everybody.   And if more the more people do do it, the best.   There was also a question that finished about how Lightning or Liquid   would work with Lightning or Main Bitcoin.   And the the the answer is just that you just need bridges   And,   like like, the nodes that are on liquid,   they must understand how to use the bridge.   And the nodes that are on on the on the main chain side, they can   the liquid node can use the route hints route hints on the invoice to   to   point them to the bridge, and then the bridge knows what to do to send the pass the the payment   to the liquid node,   if that that makes sense.  

I have a prototype   for that, but it needs a ton of improvement to be actually usable.   But it works.   I think it works.  

[00:41:33] Unknown:

I feel like you have I feel like you have a bunch of, like, little projects you're not telling us, Jeff. I feel like Yeah. Your hands are everywhere. Like yeah. I feel like your engine is revving, like,   all the way all day.   Like, it feels like you're a workhorse, man.   I'm   impressed by, like, all the little pods you've got your hands in and all the contributions you've made.  

[00:41:56] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah.   I wish they were finished and working and   there were more people helping maybe or maybe making them better than me.   But I I can't finish most of the things I have. I I I tried.  

[00:42:11] Unknown:

I mean, I just wanna jump back real quick.   I mean, I I think there is, you know, definitely real liability and and depending on your jurisdiction.   And I think but mostly that works to our advantage. Right? And I I I guess I kind of asked a,   you know, I asked kind of a leading question when I asked if it's gonna centralize, and I think what happens is, like, the one thing we have going to our advantage   is these financial regulations mean that, you know, the centralized corporate services,   because of liability, are gonna have oppressive KYC.   They're gonna have, you know, information retention   and and poor privacy. So because of that,   there's actually a major friction point to using these centralized services over using either your own node or,   I see in the comments, we they don't like uncle Jim. They want aunt Jam.  

If, you know, using your uncle Jim node, you don't have that that friction.   So they're they're I unlike the Internet, you know, something like with with, like, Gmail, for instance. Right? It's, like, centralized email. Right? It's, like, completely.   If you talk to, like, an original email nerd, like, Gmail completely lost the plot and isn't real email.   But people love it. Right? And it's because that trade off isn't very clear that they're reading your email and they're providing you a service because they're just reading through every single thing you do and just collecting information on you. But if you sign up for a centralized service and they're, like, upload your passport, prick your finger and give us your blood, give us your Social Security number, like, the firstborn   child,   like, then, you know, you might look for a different option. You're gonna be like, that that's that's a heavy price to pay.  

So we kind of have that you know, while that's   It'll also help to our advantage,   the fact that,   that that they you know, the big players will have to ball with those regulations. Right?  

[00:44:18] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's definitely something working in our favor.  

[00:44:21] Unknown:

The Yeah. But the person was asking about   the the Right. Uncle Jim lawyers, the the Uncle Jim liability. I think Uncle Jim shouldn't worry about that.  

[00:44:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, if I was a lawyer, I would say to worry about it. But in practice, you know, if you're doing it for, like, your 10 family members or something, like, except for the, you know, the most authoritative governments, you'll probably be fine.   So I kinda derailed the conversation a little bit. We were, like, dipping our toes into liquid.   Do you think, like, liquid is a reasonable project, or do you think, like, it's   it's it's unnecessary   because of lightning existing?  

[00:44:59] Unknown:

Oh, I think it's reasonable.   I like I like I think custodial stuff is reasonable   as I said before. And, like,   we we should strive to get better custodian models,   and liquid is a good custodian model. It's a custodian that   it's very private and,   actually, not very private if you're trying to   to back out. But   and it's reasonably safe. Right? The the apparently, they have good good safety for the keys. So it's it's better than a bank,   and it's open. You don't have to to KOC to use it. Only only if you want to peg out, but   that's not not always necessary.  



[00:45:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Because you can just do a swap, really. You don't need to do a formal peg out. Yeah. That's what I think. The the the obsession over the peg out is a little bit ridiculous because the only thing that you you really have,   you know,   trust minimized,   in and out with is lightning. Before lightning existed,   you know, this idea that we had a trust minimized   way of pegging in is is is revolutionary on its side on itself. And then, you know, swaps,   you know, especially if we get atomic swaps. But even if you get   I mean, we already have them. We have the custodial swaps. Right? Like, the shape shift type of things.  

And that's what people have been using with altcoins for however long.   It's relatively trust minimized. I mean, obviously, they can run off with your money in the interim while the while the trade's happening.   We had Adam back on the show the other day. He made an interesting point. Like, even if we have if we have centralized atomic swaps,   that improves the trust model slightly further because, yes, it's a centralized point of failure, but they can't steal your money. The swap only happens if they're giving you the   the equivalent.  

So, like, it's almost like a misnomer saying, like, we need permissionless   peg outs on on liquid. We just need, like, a healthy swap market. Right?  

[00:47:00] Unknown:

Yeah. The yeah.   I mean, if if the peg outs are someone will have to to do the the bag outs on the normal way. Like,   or at least that that guarantee has to be there that there will be a bag out. Adam  

[00:47:14] Unknown:

Adam made a interesting point. Right? And there was a trade off made, and the trade off was if, you know, they get you get   way better external security for the system   if you make it so PEG outs only go to approved ex pubs,   which is the federation members.   So it's, like, it's a very clear trade off they made.   And I I'm not, you know, I'm not sure I'm I'm not gonna be the one who says that the better trade off is that they should be able to peg out to any fucking address, because who wants who wants the chance that you could have, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin just get drained from the whole system at once   or whatever. I'm being alarmist.  



[00:47:52] Unknown:

But Yeah. Yeah. I I didn't know that. I didn't know that the that was a decision based on on security.   So yeah.  

[00:48:00] Unknown:

Yeah. We did a 3 hour banger with Adam back on the show, which was a very special episode.  

[00:48:04] Unknown:

Yeah. Great.   Where we do no one talks about liquid. That's why I like to talk about it more. No one uses it. I mean, if you go to, like That's the main thing. More services have to adopt it, really. And, you know, if you take a look at their blockchain and see how many transact on. It's a ghost town. I mean,   not to say that it doesn't have some real merits and could be really useful. It's just, definitely   not where we need it right now. And, you know, you could say the same thing about lightning. Lightning needs a lot more adoption for Yeah. But not at not   not the same level. Yeah. Not the same level. People are using Lightning more actively, but they could both use bump.  



[00:48:46] Unknown:

Yeah.   No one talks about RSK.  

[00:48:50] Unknown:

Did you have an opinion on RSK?  

[00:48:53] Unknown:

Yeah. No.   I think the same about Liquid. Like,   I think it's   better than a bank, so   that's good. I I'm not sure about the   Ethereum like smart contract. I'm not sure they're very useful. But It has a it it has a shitcoin. It has a shitcoin, though. Liquid doesn't have the shitcoin.   Yeah. There's also that.  

[00:49:14] Unknown:

You could generate your own shitcoins on,   like, liquid, when when are we gonna do the Citadel dispatch coin? You know what I mean? This is this is liquid this is liquid on that pool space right now.  

[00:49:28] Unknown:

Like, the blocks do happen quicker, so you have to give them that. Like, like 2 transactions  

[00:49:32] Unknown:

per block.  

[00:49:33] Unknown:

Fucking ghost tab.  

[00:49:35] Unknown:

Man.  

[00:49:38] Unknown:

Well, that's pretty crazy. That is just said. Let's see what happens if,   you know, once this gets integrated with it all the way and and see how that pans out.   That could go a long way. But I think it's also gonna take some of the other centralized exchanges to be running it for things to really take off.  

[00:49:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we had fee spike, and still pretty much no one used it. I don't know. We'll see. I I I think   I think it's, it's a lot more user friendly for for a new user because they don't have the channel management. I think that's the main thing it does going for it. I don't get the whole trader thing,   because I I think the trader thing can get solved with private lightning channels. But,   Yeah. I digress. I'm just, so   so, Fiat, Jeff, you started working with, our friends over at Zebedee,   when from in December. Right?  

[00:50:32] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:50:33] Unknown:

So we had to the freaks that that remember, we had Andre Neves on the show,   CEO and cofounder of Zebedee   4 episodes ago or 5 episodes ago.   So the the the focus over there is is putting stats and lightning into games.  

[00:50:54] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:50:55] Unknown:

Do you wanna dive into that experience at all? Like, what do do you think   is it as natural of a fit as we think it is? Like, are are is that is that do you think it's safe to say that most Zoomers are gonna start using Sats in video games before they use them anywhere else? Oh, I I don't know. I don't understand the Zoomers.  

[00:51:18] Unknown:

I don't play with games very much also,   but I think that's that that has potential, and   I   don't think it's as easy.   I I I've heard you say before, like, that you just wanna lose sets to some   some Asian guy that kills you. But I'm not sure that the incentives   the incentives are that perfect.   The the the the sets change the the incentives. So you have to you have to change the game a little, like, to   accommodate.   Like poker is a a good game with that could be played with sets because   with money of any kind   because the the the money is inside the game. It's not just   the the winner takes all.  

Like, the the bluffing and putting putting money on the table, that's a part of the game. And I think putting sets inside games   has to be done in that way too. Like, the the the first version of the Infuze CS GO thing, it was just the winner takes more sets.   But then we added that coin. I don't know if you saw it, but when you when you kill someone, they left the sets in the form of a coin in the map. So that changed the incentives   because if you go rushing to to pick up the coins, you expose yourself. And so that kind of changes in the game. I think that that's what makes Yeah. I love that. It's like,  

[00:52:38] Unknown:

if you play Call of Duty, it's like kill confirmed. Like, you gotta pick up the tags left behind.   Otherwise, it doesn't count.  

[00:52:46] Unknown:

So But, yeah,  

[00:52:47] Unknown:

really awesome to see you guys think of new game modes and and rolling them out. I need to play that one personally.  

[00:52:55] Unknown:

Yeah. But I'm I'm hopeful.   I I don't see very much the   customer side of it. But   Well, the consumers  

[00:53:04] Unknown:

I mean, look. You said you're not a gamer. The consumers right now, like, these guys these people spend so much money on gaming already. It's like you automatically are losing money in gaming.   It's just if you add if you add stats rewards, then you might make money as well.   Like, there might be, like, a a way to make money.   And and, I mean, the example that I always say, I mean, you brought it up, poker,   is, like, fucking poker without money sucks.   Like, I will not sit down to play poker for 4 hours without money now. I'm an adult. Okay? That's something that we did you did as children.   Now that you're an adult, you wanna play you wanna play with cash. Otherwise, it's not it's not fun. And I think   once you start having good games   that have this, like, built in natively,   where, you know, if you spend 2 hours, you have real money on the line,   it's just gonna kinda ruin all the games that don't have it. It's just like, why would you   there'll still be, like, a place for   the single player epic games,   where, you know, you just wanna, like, lose yourself for 5 hours, 6 hours, and escape reality,   and there'll be no money in those. But, when it comes to the competitive shit,   you know, people are gonna wanna I'm gonna wanna play I wanna play the game that I have skin in the game or actually have   have stats on the line.  



[00:54:26] Unknown:

Yeah. No. The the pro the problem is that if you're not the best player in the world, then you're gonna face the best player because they wanna take your sets. And then the game won't be fun because you wanna play with your level. That issue. Your level.  

[00:54:39] Unknown:

Do they So, like, so, like, Fortnite is a perfect example. So Fortnite in the beginning, you would just get, like look. I'm not you know, the best gamers in the world are 14 years old, and they, like, their fingers just twitch organically with whatever they're doing.   They don't even think when they play.   So, like, in the beginning of Fortnite, we just used to get our asses kicked. And then they they added a system, you know, where, like, there's, like, a ranking system, like, a reputation system. Right? And and you'd now I can actually win because they only put me with the shitty players. Mhmm. Mhmm.   So, like, that's I don't think that's like, that's just good game mechanics. Right? Like, that's not,   like, period. Even if there's no sats on the line, if you just play a game where you just die instantly all the time, like, that's not a fun game.  



[00:55:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. But the the problem is that peep most people want to play with people that are on their level,   so the game is interesting.   The the best player doesn't don't want to play with the worst player because it won't be found.   But if they they want they're playing to get the money, then they want play with the worst player possible, so they get the the sets from that that guy.   So there's there's an, conflicting   incentive there that must be solved. But once you solve that, the games do become more interesting, I think.  

[00:55:56] Unknown:

And, I mean, the other thing that you guys are dealing with on the fly and something we talked about on the on the show with Andre,   is this idea,   you know, is the is the user friendly nature of the wallet. Right? You guys have opted for a custodial wallet over there.   Is this something you battle with? Like, I assume you guys would prefer to move to a noncustodial   if possible. Right?  

[00:56:24] Unknown:

I'm not sure.   Yeah. I would prefer to move to a hosted channel model,   but but I I don't know. The the people that play, I have the I'm not sure, but I have the impression that   they want to be, like, the guy who just cares about playing games or whatever, forever kind. It's hard for that same person to be interested in running   channels   and so on. So   maybe Black Personal will move to another wallet that has that capability.   But for all the for the Zoomers that don't don't care about anything, they they should use the the so the wallet.  

[00:57:05] Unknown:

It it shouldn't matter, though, because, like, you can just use whatever wallet to pay the invoices again. Yeah. That Right?   Yeah. That that's the that's the the thing. What what's the only requirement? Like, you gotta do, l and u or l pay to get paid out  

[00:57:18] Unknown:

For withdraw.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because it still means  

[00:57:22] Unknown:

you're still sitting on a custodial wall till you withdraw. Yeah.   Yeah. The I mean, the main issue of a custodial wall is is KYC regs. You know? It's the same thing we were talking about, that friction.   And,   you know, Zebedee has, like they have different limits. They have different levels for what level of KYC you do. Mhmm. So lower amounts, it's not, like, horrible.   But, I mean, I think, ultimately, the goal's gotta be to move to a noncustodial   thing so that you can open it up to more users. I mean, we had Sputnik on the same show,   and he has Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, and he was like,   you you know, he made his game like a proper BitCorner originally. And, like, every if when you installed it, it installed a full lightning node on your computer. Jeez. And, like, he had bottleneck issues real quick. And and the other thing is   is in a high fee environment. Right? Like, if you have to open a channel for someone, you're hitting the chain.  

Right? That could be,   you know, if if   if block space if but the block space is not gonna increase, I I'd be very surprised if, you know, we have block size increase.   So if that's the case, you know, we could be looking at a $100, a $150   main you know, on chain transaction fees to open a channel. Like, how could you ever have,   anything under that amount has gotta be custodial. Otherwise, you're just   burning money.  

[00:58:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be sovereign, to have your own channels, there's a cost to it. And,   that's that's one of the bigger problems here. It's like that and and the convenience of, you know, not having to manage your channels.  

[00:59:03] Unknown:

These channels are so fragile. They close for you should touch them, they close, and then you lose a ton of money.  

[00:59:11] Unknown:

These things worry me. There's a lot of things that I feel like are just hidden because developers are just eating the cost right now to build   to, like, build out the user base. Right?   Like, Moon Wallet is a perfect example. Like, Moon Wallet's UX is fucking fantastic.  

[00:59:26] Unknown:

But, like, I don't know how they're doing it without just burning a shit ton of money. They they are. I mean, they I think they're spending a lot of money for user acquisition costs,   And I think   that the mix of, you know, these user these companies figuring out, like,   their flows and how much they want to spend for this user acquisition   versus also,   you know, dealing with the custodial wallets and, you know, dealing with potential   impending,   you know, regulations   and risk there. Like,   a whole bunch of the wallets   that we know and use today might not look the same in even, say, a year's time.  



[01:00:07] Unknown:

Well, when when the Bitcoin Hyperbit connection happen,   all these issues will vanish.   So we just have to survive until that point.  

[01:00:18] Unknown:

Yeah. That's true. At least, we're seeing a lot of innovation and, you know, not even 3 months ago, I don't think people were using Mona's mantra. It it wasn't really talked about.   So things are moving really rapidly as far as these custodial and   semi, in quotes, semi custodial   wallets are going.   So, I think there's still a lot of room for experimentation,   and that that's what's happening.   But, you know, don't don't expect things to stay the same or even for your favorite wallet to stick around,  

[01:00:47] Unknown:

in, say, 2 years. But just to be clear here, that's when we say Moon Wallet, we mean m u u n. Yep. Hopefully, they will change their name so I don't have to fucking say how to spell it every time. But,  

[01:01:00] Unknown:

what is Moon Moon Wallet with an o? Is there the Yeah. There's a custodial.  

[01:01:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Custodial. Right?  

[01:01:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so. I haven't used their product.  

[01:01:16] Unknown:

Have you,   yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I agree. This this is, like, a heavy competitive   market right now for lightning wallets, and and most of them will probably not survive.   But it should be interesting to see how the whole high fee environment works,   with lightning because I feel like it hasn't really been stress tested under that environment yet.   The   and, like, it barely did, like, 2 weeks ago or 3 weeks ago, but I feel like people just stopped doing things. They   talking about   how, ranking systems suck because we're talking about video game ranking systems, and it reminded me   because,   you know, Lightning Labs released this new tool that can let you explore your boss score   last week,   and it's still closed. I it's not open. Like, we don't know how they classify things.  

And I, like, tweeted at them in, like, all caps,   because I have, like, 250   peers on that note. And they were, like, 0 of 250 are good peers.   And I was like, you never fuck it. You talk shit about my peers like this, and I'll never forget it.   And and my boss score, like, moved up, like, a 100 points or 200 points after that, and I've got, like, 7 good peers now.  

[01:02:42] Unknown:

So what you're telling us   is that Oz is the wizard behind the green curtain, and he's just   changing things as he wants.   Yeah. We we need to get buzz on the show. We have too many questions.  

[01:02:56] Unknown:

If this score if this score is the name of a person.  

[01:02:59] Unknown:

We we need to try to get as many tips out of him as possible.  

[01:03:04] Unknown:

If this score has the name of a person, you assume that person is manually requesting that ranking.  

[01:03:11] Unknown:

But, technically, it stands for balance of satoshis. It has nothing to do with his name. That's just a coincidence.  

[01:03:17] Unknown:

I think it stands for his name too, but he made balance of Satoshis.  

[01:03:21] Unknown:

No. I'm aware. It's it's a running joke in here. I think one of the reasons my boss score was bad was because we proposed an Odell score.  

[01:03:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Competing score. That's minus 500.  

[01:03:35] Unknown:

Yeah. I think you should do it.  

[01:03:38] Unknown:

But, yeah, I mean, I think we need   like, so what are you what are your thoughts on, like, reputation systems,   for lightning notes? Like, this is this this is something that's essential. Right?  

[01:03:51] Unknown:

Yeah.   I I like reputation systems. I just don't know how to do them. It's always very hard. Like, a a global ranking is is not   maybe for lightning nodes, it's good.   But the   generally, like, the the   graph of reputation,   I think it works better, but also much harder to build for the stuff.   For Lightning nodes, I the thing I I like about   the thing I wanted to see is, like, if a peer is closing channels   because   I hate that.   And   also failing   I don't know what they what they measure that, but they probably don't measure if the peer is closing channels because   I don't know. You you can't know if why a a channel was closed in unless you're watching the logs and understanding all the internals.  

So I think that's information is not public.   Yeah. I don't know.  

[01:04:48] Unknown:

Yeah. It's tricky right now. There's just so many different metrics,   out there, and it's hard to weigh them versus each other.   I think it's,   you know, that that's pretty much why the metrics for BOS aren't public. I think they're still getting ironed out.   You know, even a heavy router like BOS is still trying to figure out   which metrics   together or on their own are most valuable and should be weighted the most. And, yes, it's gonna take a good amount of time more. We're we're gonna need more routing on the network.   And, you know, what what may be a good peer for one person might not necessarily be a good peer for another.  

I think a lot of that really depends on   what your flows and the flows of your users are are really looking like.   You know? Like, you wanna make sure that your liquidity is accommodating to the flows that your users   are going through on a regular basis   more so than anything else.  

[01:05:47] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:05:49] Unknown:

So I have the tweet I pulled the tweet up just because it's fucking hilarious.   The   I mean, I you you mentioned something that was interesting there, Fiat, Jeff. I mean, like, right now, like, it's so   we don't even know,   like, it's so experimental. Like, you can't really like, I have   I have, at least on l and d, like, I'll just have   channels just get closed that I didn't close,   that were just,   you know,   they they they just closed themselves.   And I don't believe that they I at first, I didn't believe they closed themselves,   except   I saw, like, a couple channels closed that, like, were with people that, like, I really trusted, and they, like, swore to me that they didn't close the channel.  

Yep. So, like, there's, like, phantom closes happening.  

[01:06:45] Unknown:

A tour, like, should be Especially when you have that tour only?   Yeah. I I think a lot of people have a lot of issues with that, getting bad circuits.  

[01:06:54] Unknown:

So this is a screenshot   this is a screenshot from last week, May 11th. Right? And here's the screenshot from today.   How do you jump up so much? Like, I'm green. I'm good. I'm not unstable anymore.  

[01:07:09] Unknown:

Oh my god. The buzz slider, man. Pretty fucking funny, man.  

[01:07:13] Unknown:

And they they have way I have way more peers than 176, but whatever.   Yeah. The Tor thing is interesting. Right? Because, like, if you're talking about   if you're talking about sovereign lightning nodes, right, like, they should be running Tor only. But if you're gonna talk about uptime,   you know, obviously, you'd be better off if you're running in, like, Amazon's main server farm in Clearnet.  

[01:07:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I I just see them as 2 different classes of nodes. It's like you're either,   you know, really into the routing and you're willing to   make yourself public facing on Clearnet   or you're more so catering yourself towards personal use and privacy.   And,   Yeah. I I think they're very much different, and they come with their own unique set of challenges. And,   you know, they're not gonna perform the same,   under the same conditions just because of that network,   alone.  

[01:08:15] Unknown:

Fucking hilarious.   So,   so last week, I accidentally or maybe 2 weeks ago, I accidentally said that you were,   the maintainer   of Fiat Jaffe. I said you were the maintainer of this Immortan,   I guess, lightning implementation,   which you aren't.   But do you wanna talk about it? Like, you're one of the I I you're the one who brought it to my attention. So Do we know for sure, though? I mean, Fiat Jaff is a NIM. Okay?  

[01:08:45] Unknown:

So,   like, who's to say for sure?  

[01:08:49] Unknown:

Well,   I would I would love to be the author of this, but, I'm not.   And, well, I can't I can't speak. You you should try to get Anton here on the show on the show, but he he won't give interviews to anyone, I think.   So I'm I'm trying my best.   The the idea is that,   like, the POW was a was a   custom implementation tool. People say it was based on a clear,   like, open on Saturday   last week, but,   it it isn't really.   It it he just took the the cryptographic functions and encoding functions from a clear, but all the the logic, the lightning logic is is custom.   And he's doing it again on Immorton.  

Basically, he says,   Immorton has 2 difference, 2 key differences from from the BOW. 1 is that it has hosted channels, like, in a more prominent   space.   And   the hosted channels on on BLW, like, the v one hosted channels, they were just   on the   on the edges of   you you you only have a hosted channel between your BOW and a nuclear server.   And with Martin, he created a parallel network of hosted channels that can route payments. So you can have,   2 Eclairs   and a hosting channel between them,   and they can sit in the middle of a route,   and you can initiate a a payment   from your Immorton based wallet   that passes through that hosted channel. You can't advertise that channel on the on the global   channel lightning channel graph because,   it requires   the the the the protocol requires you to have an on chain utic so for that. But he made a   separate gossip mechanism for to announce these channels, and, the Immorta wallet   understands that. And also the eclair hosted channels plug in understand that. So they they know about the channel. Once you know that   thing, Like, he's very he loves trampoline routing now.  

And using trampoline routing,   one one note can   outsource. Like, they can they can route a payment through your immortal mobile wallet.   So if your if your mobile wallet is online,   you'll connect to a node,   and the node if the node understands that trampoline thing,   they can route the payment through through you   to another place,   like, using another channel you your mobile wallet has. So it's good for the beer   that   they if it it can be like a hosted channel or a normal channel between the the immortal node and the   server.  

It's good for the peer that the sets don't get stuck in that channel because on a normal,   on a normal mobile wallet,   if someone opens a channel to that wallet or   the the wallet opens a channel to to that to that note, the sets, they they're stuck there. Like, between your Breeze Wallet and the Breeze   server, there's a channel, and the Breeze server has sets on that channel,   but they can't get the sets out unless they close the channel. So they they're there. But if using this this technique,   you can send a payment   from the server to the wallet and then to elsewhere. So you can clean up your your sets from that channel.  

Anyway, I hope that's clear.   So that these 2 big improvements.   Also also the ability to   I'm not sure this is doable right now.   Actually, it is.   Like, the ability to the ability to   send a payment that passes through a private channel and then goes on,   that breaks the the heuristic,   that's like a private channel is always the end of the payment because you don't know maybe now that payment will still go on.   So it's good for privacy, very good for privacy. Drake's one of the big problems of Lightning privacy that Anthony   talked about.  



[01:13:03] Unknown:

Well, I mean,   to break it down   so so,   basically, all of our Lightning implementations   so far have been focused on,   full node users, This idea that you use your own node, and it's almost like   after the fact, after like, a second tier of user is the user who's gonna be a light user, and, you know, we'll make these different trade offs to to make that possible for them to use it without their own node. While Immortan seems like   just an acceptance that not every user is gonna use their own node, so there should be a   implementation that's focused on on light users, users that aren't using their own node. Right? Like, from the ground up, it should be focused on that and those trade offs.  



[01:13:48] Unknown:

I wouldn't say that users that use your own node, but, like, the lightning   implementation are focused on servers, I think. Right. Those nodes are online all the time. And then they they they realized you could have Lightning note wallets on on phones.   But I think, like, BOW lets you use your own Bitcoin node.   By default, it doesn't, but you can point to your own Bitcoin node. Maybe Mortem will too.   So, yeah, you can still use your your own node, but it's focused on the the lite mobile   wallet.   So,  

[01:14:30] Unknown:

Evan, you you have any comments here before we move on from a modem?  

[01:14:35] Unknown:

No. I'm just really looking forward to it coming out and people being able to mess around with it. So definitely something I would explore and then wanna play around with. I know a lot of people wanna get some white client wallet rolling.   It's exciting. It might be a really good solution alongside,   you know, rolling your own L and D or messing with rust lightning.   Yeah. We we'd really love to play around with it. I mean, it's interesting. Right? Because, like,  

[01:15:06] Unknown:

I mean, there's, like, roles to play for all these things. I mean, I run I I run 2 247   Lightning nodes. I use Zeus to connect to them.   But at the end of the day, like, if I'm gonna accept a quick payment or something, like, I I prefer to use Moon. Like, it's just it's just cleaner. I like that it's just all built in. You know?   And I feel like there's something to be said there about something like a Morden if if you have something that's literally designed for,   basically, mobile users. Right? And then then I don't have to deal with, you know, my tour circuit working or any of that shit, and I can I can leave the heavy lifting   for those notes at a different time if I want?  



[01:15:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's perfectly normal to have different, you know, risk profiles for different kinds of payments.   You know what I mean? If I'm just trying to accept a cool $10, $20 at the bar from a friend,  

[01:15:57] Unknown:

you know, there's nothing wrong with throwing that on a custodial wall. Right. I'm not gonna use my fucking routing node to fucking accept that payment. Like, that's ridiculous.   And I'm gonna dox my public key to him, you know, at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone that he shares it with by accident.  

[01:16:10] Unknown:

Yeah. And, you know, things are constantly changing. It's gonna be easier   with these new routing types to get receiver privacy, but, you know, things are are sort of hairy right now. So it's   completely to normal to be using different wallets for different function.  

[01:16:28] Unknown:

Do you think do you think lnbig is evil? And the fact that lnbig is sponsoring   Morten makes it evil too.  

[01:16:37] Unknown:

Oh, Ellen Bigg, not yeah. Ellen Bigg. Right?  

[01:16:40] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:16:41] Unknown:

I mean, I think it doesn't make him Morten evil, but it also doesn't make Ellen Bigg not evil.  

[01:16:48] Unknown:

Why do you think it's evil?  

[01:16:50] Unknown:

I mean, I'm not saying that Ellen Big is evil, but I'm saying that we should be skeptic like, I feel like there's a lot of Bitcoin promoters,   you know, on on Twitter and stuff. Like, look. I don't know if you guys can see,   on the top left hand corner, we can see, like, all the how many freaks are tuning in through the live,   live streams.   It shows the total number of freaks. I'm not sure if they show that to you. Do they show that to you?  

[01:17:14] Unknown:

I don't see it. Well, anyway,  

[01:17:17] Unknown:

when we were talking about Elon and the price and shit,   we were fucking 10 x where we are right now. Right? Like, when you get when you get, like, an hour and a half into, like, a technical conversation,   you only have the ride or dies left. And and and the hidden secret with Bitcoin   is, you know, if you if you care about engagement,   the two things that that work for you are either heavy fear or which doesn't even work as well, but the real thing that works   is just heavy bullishness. You just   you put bullishness on everything, which is why, like, this is a technical show, but I constantly reiterate in that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Right? Because you gotta tow the line.   But so so the issue is the the issue that you see is,   you see people ignore these things   that, you know, bingo, nuance   that that, you know, we should be critical of and we should be concerned about. And the big thing for me for a while and still is is that Ellen Big has, like, half the public capacity of the network.  

It's a little bit less now,   and everyone just glosses that over when they're set talking about public capacity numbers. Right? And if you mix it with Ellen Big and then you do, like, the top 3 regulated KYC services   that are on lightning, right, then you're, like, 75% of the network's public capacity   are these, you know, the small group of of institutions, and we have no idea who LN Big is. So it could very well be   you know, I've heard people speculate and I really don't have any desire to speculate, but I've heard people speculate it's like a a rich Russian Bitcoiner who just wants to see the lightning network grow and is throwing a bunch of money in.   I respect that. That would be awesome. You know? I mean, I I'm not, you know,   I don't have his kind of money, and I'm not Russian, but I did similar with our stacking stats note. I just threw a shit ton of money into it, to just try and jump start the whole thing and encourage people to,   you know, experiment with these kind of things.  

But at the end of the day, whoever this unknown entity is is running,   you know,   tens, like, 50 nodes all in from the same, like, server farm that's, like, in Langley, Virginia, like, right next to where the CIA's base is.   And and, like, there's only, like, 3 of us that call it out that's that ever fucking talk about it. No one talks about it.  

[01:19:39] Unknown:

So what you're saying is operate   as if Ellen Big is   CIA?  

[01:19:45] Unknown:

Or something, you know, something malicious.  

[01:19:47] Unknown:

I think I think you should I mean, not saying one way or the other for sure, but, yeah, why not make that presumption and stay on the the cautious   side? Like, when a morn comes out, we gotta review that code. Come on.  

[01:20:01] Unknown:

Yeah. And, like, the the   the analogy that I brought up in the the past is, like, tour is funded by 3 letter agencies. Right?   So it doesn't mean that, you know, Tor is inherently bad, but it doesn't make the 3 letter agencies any better for funding it.  

[01:20:18] Unknown:

I mean, they benefit off the anonymity   and the the anonymity set that it creates.   So   it makes sense. It doesn't really devalue it really if you could verify what it actually does, but,  

[01:20:33] Unknown:

you know Well, it does it does put into question it makes you think, like,   it makes a lot of sense that Tor is not, you know, designed for an environment where the US government is adversarial towards it.   Right? And, like, there there was never designed that way. And   I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, the money behind it happens to be the US government. Right?  

[01:20:54] Unknown:

I mean, listen, well, we know the flaws in Tor. You know, anyone could set up these these   these output nodes. Right?   You know, that they could be just pound overnight. Right?   But we go do mostly, it it serves our purposes really well.  

[01:21:12] Unknown:

Well, anyway, that's my little rant on Ellen Bigg.   And we had Anthony in the comments defending them.   We should be more concerned about all the random nodes than Ellen Bigg. I've   why?  

[01:21:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. I'm very naive of these things. Like, it it looks like a Russian guy with money that wants to help Lightning, and I believe that   because I'm very naive. I also believe Satoshi Nakamoto is a young Japanese boy.   So that's   my imagination is it. It's very   Yeah.  

[01:21:54] Unknown:

Young Japanese boy.   I'm, I'm on board with that theory.   At   least we know, Ellen, but it's hard to   They're talking about Alan.  

[01:22:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Langley is just fucking with us. Yeah. You're coming in and out a little bit.   Yeah. It's it's absolutely because of talking about Allan Vic.   But,   yeah, I mean, as far as, like, connecting to a random node,   you know, can you hear me now? No. There we go.   Yeah. You're back.   I think. Apologies.  

[01:22:43] Unknown:

Yeah. We were disconnected. I was disconnected for a little while there, so I apologize to the freaks if if it was disjointing.  

[01:22:50] Unknown:

You on the satellite Internet this week, Matt?   Actually, don't answer that too.  

[01:22:56] Unknown:

We started talking about it again, and we used the Langley keyword, and then all of a sudden, everything just starts going down.  

[01:23:03] Unknown:

Yeah.   Or for the course.  

[01:23:07] Unknown:

If you keep disconnecting you, we won't invite you next week.  

[01:23:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Next time we got it, we'll invite some guests on. Don't worry, Matt.   We'll appreciate that.  

[01:23:19] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, I I just want more conversation about Ellen Big. I just the the, you know, whatever. I'm not I'm not trying to be conspiratorily here, but I I just think, you know, if   you gotta discount you gotta at least discount the public capacity that's provided by LNB because it's all provided by a single entity. Right? So  

[01:23:40] Unknown:

let's   stay on the note of random nodes, though. And Anthony makes a pretty good point in that you sorta have to trust all your counterparties   on lightning. Right?   You're trusting them to not close your channel at an inconvenient time.   But, also, if you're routing payments through them and they're your first hop out,   they're gonna know,   you know, that's coming from you and   where it's going next. Right? So you're trusting them in that regard. Yeah. But they don't they don't know if you're the one originating that payment. No. No. They know that you're just passing something along. Yeah. But still, it adds up. If you end up using a route multiple times,   they can start, you know, creating a profile on you of some sort.  

So while,   you have some   guarantees and that, you know, it's not necessarily coming from you, you could be another hop in the net. They could start still start making some assumptions about you.   So for the most part, I'd say on land, it's better to have counterparties that you trust.   Yeah.  

[01:24:51] Unknown:

Yeah. From multiple reasons, I think.  

[01:24:56] Unknown:

I mean, it's a little bit weird. Right? Because,   I mean, we were so I I feel like we were sold that it was, you know, that wasn't the case. Right? It was just it was, like, poor   expectation management.  

[01:25:09] Unknown:

I I think, like, big words like,   like, trustless in nature got   and whatnot.   And, also, things getting learned on the fly as we have this new experimental network   that really only been around, what, 3 years now.   We're still learning things, you know, every day, really, like new  

[01:25:29] Unknown:

Yes. And it's like,  

[01:25:30] Unknown:

hell, even Anthony's deep dive on privacy. Like, no one's really done that till since, you know, last week.   You know, this is a really nascent network, and   I wouldn't blame that part really much as, like,   you know, bad marketing or, like, fraudulent marketing like other product   products in the space have, but more so not really knowing all the constraints of it out the gate.  

[01:25:54] Unknown:

Touch touch dryer tells a story. I I heard him saying this on some podcast   that   like, touch dryer and Joseph Phung, I think, the the guys that invented the Light Net Network.   Uh-huh.   Yep. Desiree, like, he he he tells something like that. Joseph was very excited in saying that. I think he even says that in the original presentation,   the from 2,000 and 15,   that lightning network will allow us to route,   like, dozens of millions of, I don't know, a very large number and   made all that hype about it while while Tej was very   cultures and didn't he says he didn't really believe it was going to be such a such a powerful thing.  

And then Josephine went to material.   So that's   common, like, expected behavior.  

[01:26:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we have NVK on the show a lot, and he's you know,   he makes an interesting point. I mean, I I don't know if it's   it's just   a lot of aspects of of the lightning ecosystem   feel a little bit shit coiny, you know,   or, like, less adversarial. It's it doesn't,   and that's not to degrade the   the devs who work on it all the time. I mean, I have so much respect,   for all the devs that are are contributing to lightning projects and making it more robust.   But it does it it's like the portion of Bitcoin that's, like, less adversarial. Right?   It's like our it's like our fun   sandbox where you can do all these different things and kinda you you know, hashtag reckless. Right? Like, imagine if, like, Bitcoin core devs were like, oh, run Bitcoin core, you know, hashtag reckless.  



[01:27:38] Unknown:

Like, that would be ridiculous. Like, leave all your funds in the hot wallet. You know what I mean?   But, no. I mean, listen. It's it's supposed to be your checking account. Right? This is their funds that you wanna be able to move at a moment's notice.   And, there's a trade off in the security model to accommodate for that. Yeah? Right. So   it's definitely not where you wanna have   the majority of your savings on. Right? You know, it's just like what you're trying to to move in your month or whatever   Until the next time you have to rebalance or or open new channel channels. You know?  

[01:28:18] Unknown:

Right.   Okay. So, I mean, on to the next topic. While we have you here, Fia, Jeff, you have this project   that I'm gonna butcher the name,   antetilineum?   Antilium?   Atlinium.   Atlinium.   Horrible name, dude. It's a really bad name. So you wanna talk to the freaks about what it is and why they should care?  

[01:28:44] Unknown:

I'm not sure they should care. I the   the the idea of smart contracts,   it it's   was on my mind for a long time, and   I I realized that they they could be useful, like, as a programmable   escrow,   like,   they could you put money in there and something happens, and people can trust that. They don't have to   trust absolutely, but they can trust   that the person there's not a person interested in, like, that can steal from that   from that contract, that escrow.   So I made this,   this explanation was terrible.   But the idea is that you can   it's like Ethereum, but on Ethereum, you have an escrow that is the the Ethereum network and the the nodes and the validation and the miners and so on. In this case, it's the same, but   this grow is a server   that I run.  

And other people can post their their contracts there. Like, they write   some lines of code, and then they have a smart escrow   that they can use for other things. And someone   using that doesn't have to trust the person who wrote the code. They only have to trust me in this case,  

[01:30:05] Unknown:

and that's it. So it's like a it's it's I mean, it's a flex on Ethereum. You're saying we can do what what you do, and you as long as you add this trusted third party.   But but because this trusted third party it's like the uncle Jim model. Right? Like, the trusted third party can have competition. There's a bunch of different providers.   You know, ideally,   there aren't, but if there were,   then you could get away with that trust model more. Is that the that's the argument basically. Right?  

[01:30:30] Unknown:

The the the argument   is is like   separating the the person who that   ensures you that,   like, guarantees your money, like, holds your money and guarantees that some code will be run. Separating that from the person who wrote the code.  

[01:30:48] Unknown:

Right. And then and to me, I mean,   the simple use case   is is this prediction market betting use case.  

[01:30:57] Unknown:

Yeah. I've I've been trying to make a ton of small apps to showcase it.  

[01:31:02] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah.  

[01:31:04] Unknown:

That one makes the most sense to me. There's a lot of there should be a lot of demand there. Why is no one using it?  

[01:31:10] Unknown:

I don't think it's very good. Like, the incentives   are not very good. You you I had to make another one that uses a different calculation for the   for the market, like   because   otherwise, you you pay you you can't buy a lot of shares.   Otherwise, you pay up   the the the probability will go sky   high. So you have to buy 1, buy a few shares and tell someone else to buy the others, but it still works like that way. Like, it's it has a market is market,   automated market maker thing   that,   like,   just   you don't need another book for that.   So it's good in that way. But on the other hand, it's not very optimized for   large volumes. And also the idea that the person who created the the contract   resolves it is not ideal.  

Like, the person who  

[01:32:07] Unknown:

there should definitely be another way. Yeah. The discrete log contract guys are trying to solve that, right,   where the Oracle is a separate person, doesn't know what the bets are.   But I I do feel like,   I mean, when I got into Bitcoin, my first use case   I mean, I think,   you know, the obvious use case was was gambling. Right? I mean, you had Satoshi Dice, but you also had we had Black Tuesday in America where they basically just, like, cut off all the online betting sites.   And, yeah, like, it's, you know, online betting now in the United States has become, you know, more legal, and you have the   you know, you have Portnoy playing in it with Penn Gaming, and you have DraftKings,   and, you know, you you have Yahoo, you have all these different   regulated services that offer online betting.  

But,   to me, there's this massive demand for, you know, no k y c, frictionless   Bitcoin gambling,   whether that's, you know we can call it gambling or we can call it prediction markets. It's the same shit.   And   it's like everyone's just trying to reinvent the wheel almost. You know? It's like I've I've been in the space for   8 plus years,   and everyone's trying to overcomplicate it. Like, I just need, like,   a a relatively simple liquid site   that's not not like liquid Bitcoin, like, a site that has enough volume. Right? That that I don't care if it's centralized. You know? Let me just bet with lightning,   get in and out of my bets easily,   call it a day. Like, I don't you know?  



[01:33:43] Unknown:

What do you wanna bet on? Like sports or Well, the big one in America  

[01:33:48] Unknown:

the big one in America is Americans   aren't legally allowed to gamble on elections. So,   all those regulated services I just mentioned simply cannot have any election bets.   Right? So we had this major election come and go,   and there was, like, nobody was offering it. Like, the Ethereum guys have, like, this super complicated augur.   You know, the DLC guys are talking about DLCs left and right, discreet log contracts, but you couldn't there was no easy way to bet on it.   That was a failure in my mind. Right? Like, that's that's ridiculous that it's 2021.  

[01:34:23] Unknown:

So there there's 2 problems there. One is the the order book thing. The the liquidity is important, as you said, but it's very hard to get.   And and if you do the order book thing,   it's impossible   because no one's going to put orders on the site without liquidity. And when someone one joins the site, they don't find any orders, so so empty.   So   it's very hard to to get going. So the automated market makes a thing. It it solves that part, but I think no one has used it on the wild.   It's, I copied   the the code from the Hivemind   project.  

And the other problem is that the law   rate. You you could have   yeah.   When when this this market start to getting to get interesting,   they always they always fail.   They always like, the government always shut them down. And you could do if you watch the the post tours,   presentation on Hivemind,   you can do a ton of interesting things with this with this betting market.   And you can do conditional betting, and you you can, like, extract a lot of knowledge from the society,   from from these markets using these markets.   But the problem is that the law will always be against it. So you need a system like Bitcoin,   I think, for this.  

I think a system that is very   censorship resistant.   So, yeah, we don't predict on market. Predict on market is a toy, like, to showcase the the   the algorithm the the the the   sorry. The automated market maker algorithm   to show that it works even with, like, very few users, you can still buy shares.   You don't depend on someone else going on the site at the same time and   staying there, something like that.   But the other part, the censorship resistant part is very important. That's why I I wanted to see your hive mind working.  

[01:36:26] Unknown:

And, like, I mean, like, a Bitcoin   I it'd be who me to mention,   you know, economics   geek,   Nick Carter,   our boy Nick Carter, like, he thinks, like, prediction markets would be awesome for corn futures because corn futures, I guess, are illegal, and we we like   he he thinks that'd be a fun use for prediction markets. But prediction markets are really fucking cool, this idea that you can gamble on an outcome because   it goes back to the video games that we were talking about with the video games.   You have stats on the line. You actually have skin in the game. So those predictions,   the way those betting markets go   should   be way more likely,   outcome wise   than if you if you have, like, a centralized polling provider or something like that. And a perfect example in Bitcoin land right now   is, like,   where the fuck is our betting markets on on whether or not when Taproot's gonna get activated?  

Right? Like, that should be when I start this show or when I do rabbit hole recap on Thursday and I'm talking about how likely it is for Taproot   to get activated. It shouldn't be based on some engagement account on Twitter that's saying, oh, 90% of mining pools are are saying it's activated. It should be on a very liquid betting site that says, you know, 10,000 Bitcoin are saying that, you know, Taprid is gonna be activated in the next month and a half,   and we don't have that. It's crazy that we don't have that. I am not saying   I deserve shit because I'm not gonna build that. I don't I don't want to have that liability on me, but some NIM some enterprising NIM somewhere   in the Seychelles or some shit   should have, like, the the this that service should be available.  



[01:38:10] Unknown:

It's it's gonna come. I mean, thing things are just so early as far as that stuff goes right now. Like like, DLCs   are really just rolling now, and I think   we're gonna see a lot more services using them,   you know,   in in the next year even.   And furthermore,   we don't even have DLCs on lightning yet. We we need to get Taproot activated,   and   that's gonna be a game changer in itself. So a lot of people,   you know, probably have an idea of of what they want their infrastructure to look like, and it's just not technically possible yet,   with the state of the blockchain right now.  



[01:38:48] Unknown:

We got, some guys in the comments mentioning Stacks, which is formerly Blockstack, which is formally something else, I think. This is terrible shitcoin.  

[01:38:57] Unknown:

This is terrible terrible. They lie. They're liars.   Let's hear this. Let's hear this. I wanna hear your opinion on it. Yeah. I wanna hear the rundown. Oh, I I don't know very much about Stack, but I know that Blockstack   has been lying since they were created. Like, they make a ton of marketing about   doing something something blockchain, something   decentralized, something like they don't explain what they're doing, and no one cares. No one looks.   When when you go look inside the the blocks, I think they have decentralized   apps. It was all fake because the apps were just running in a cloud server that you could host yourself. Like, is this a normal app?  

You can't host apps normally. And then you store the data on a decentralized   network that's just a server that you can run, but everybody run their the server that they offered   by default.   And then they they buy a ton of Bitcoiners with this they they they give   money for Bitcoiners to build apps that integrated   block stack.   And oh, I don't know. It's it's so terrible. And then they made this tax thing that's a shitcoin.   And they say they say it's based on Bitcoin, but it's it's not   okay. I don't know. I don't know the details about Stack, but I know it's not based on Bitcoin. It's not a side chain. And they say it is, so  

[01:40:17] Unknown:

starts with a lie. And they have a they have a regulated shitcoin that's attached to it that they were they're they got legal permission to dump on retail.   I remember everyone was super proud of them. There was, like, all the congratulations were going out on Bitcoin Twitter. I was like, guys, like, can we not congratulate someone for getting regulatory approval to to dump a shit coin on retail? And then I got a lot of shit for that, and here we are.   I haven't looked at that chart lately, but I assume it's pretty just trending to 0 with everything else.   No. I mean, this is my same concern with RSK. Right? Like, RSK   has got, like, shitcoin vibes all over it. It's got the fucking token. You know? I don't know what to believe there. Would you agree, Fiat, Jeff? Like, how is that different than RSK?  



[01:41:01] Unknown:

RSK is a   a a real side chain if you if you consider the Federated peg side   chain. So you can really move Bitcoins there   and transact Bitcoins   and move them move them back, features their their model.  

[01:41:18] Unknown:

So if it's What's the token for?  

[01:41:21] Unknown:

I I don't know the the story about the token, but you can ignore the token. It's like another token inside. If you could ignore the token, it's almost worse.   I'm not sure. Like, the token   I I we need to Stacks token for?   You can't move Bitcoin to the Stacks blockchain,   and you can't move the Bitcoins back.   But you can do it on RSK. That's the purpose of RSK. The token was like a money grab thing to finance   the the stuff. I don't know. I don't like the token.   But I'm saying it's different it's different projects. Like, one is trying to be a side chain even if they have a shady token. The other is just a shitcoin   that markets itself will rely.  



[01:42:06] Unknown:

A governance token. They both they both sound like shitcoins to me. What did you have an opinion on Urbit?   Well, I'd have you.  

[01:42:18] Unknown:

I liked Urbit when I first read about it.  

[01:42:21] Unknown:

That's my opinion. But it also has a shitcoin. It's like my barometer is, like, if these things have shitcoins attached to them, it's just like it's probably garbage.  

[01:42:29] Unknown:

They didn't have a shitcoin in the beginning. It was just that weird talk about  

[01:42:33] Unknown:

planets and shit Those are the shitcoins.   They have their NFT shit coins, like planets, universes, stars. They're all trainable.  

[01:42:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I know I know they are now, but in the beginning, when I was reading it, there was no mention of shit coins. And then when they got traction, they said, oh, we decided to do these things that are properties   on the network, and we need a net a blockchain to do it, and they've decided to do it on Ethereum, and then we launch this token.  

[01:43:01] Unknown:

Yeah.   But they're switching to Bitcoin, but it still has the   Well Like, that's what people don't realize. Like, I like, my issue with shit tokens isn't that they're on Ethereum. It's like they're like, oh, if we put the shit token on liquid, then the Bitcoiners will like it. Like, I still don't like your shit token.  

[01:43:19] Unknown:

But don't don't you think there is some form of digital assets that   can exist besides Bitcoin?  

[01:43:27] Unknown:

I mean, that's a $1,000,000 question. The one that we tolerate on this show is the BISTDAO token. Like, is that a shitcoin?  

[01:43:33] Unknown:

Yes.   Yeah. Sort  

[01:43:37] Unknown:

of. I think it is a shitcoin. I mean, like, how how deep in the weeds do we wanna go defining shitcoins here?  

[01:43:43] Unknown:

Well, my my thing is that if the token represents something real.  

[01:43:48] Unknown:

Oh, total shitcoin. I mean, like, if it's like a tangible thing in the real world, like, oh, this asset's pegged to What about Tether? Is Tether a shitcoin?  

[01:43:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Tether, I think it's not a shitcoin.  

[01:44:01] Unknown:

Why is Tether not a shitcoin?  

[01:44:05] Unknown:

Because it's an IOU. Like, it's not not a shitcoin. It's a proper IOU.   Yeah.   I I think that there's some assets that   maybe you can own that aren't money   that you can transfer, but, I'm not sure about the   concrete examples.   Is gold a shitcoin? Governance  

[01:44:26] Unknown:

tokens are not are always shitcoin. Come on. Gold's totally a shitcoin. Is yeah. Is gold a shitcoin?  

[01:44:33] Unknown:

You put that on the screen.  

[01:44:37] Unknown:

This used to be a reoccurring segment on the show. The like, after, like, 10 episodes, everyone just agreed it was a shitcoin, so I stopped asking the question, but it   it did fit.   What do you think? Do you think gold's a shitcoin?  

[01:44:54] Unknown:

No.   I think no.  

[01:44:58] Unknown:

It depends on what your definition of a shitcoin is. Right? Yeah.   Yep. Yep. So if gold's not a shitcoin, then I I think I would agree that Tether is not a shitcoin, or, like, a Tether gold, right, wouldn't be a shitcoin.   If you don't think gold like, if if the asset that is backing   whatever, you know, you're, like, you're relying on a trusted third party. It's an IOU, but maybe it's not a shitcoin.   But I think gold's a shitcoin, so   the IOU is also shitcoin.  

[01:45:25] Unknown:

Yeah. But there are there's also some assets, digital assets. I think maybe their bit example is not that bad.   If you if the shitcoins are the ships and planets,   they are they are properties, like, they're digital properties in the on the they're closed network that you can join by buying a ship.   Digital real estate? Digital real estate. Yeah. Maybe these are these aren't shitcoin. But  

[01:45:50] Unknown:

That's what shitcoiners say.  

[01:45:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Was it wasn't there a whole shitcoin just based on make believe land, digital space?  

[01:45:59] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Barry Silberts neck deep in it. What was it called?  

[01:46:02] Unknown:

Man. There's just too many to keep track of at this point, honestly.  

[01:46:06] Unknown:

Yeah. But I think the thing has to resist before you sell them. Decentraland.  

[01:46:11] Unknown:

Decentraland.  

[01:46:12] Unknown:

That's it. I hate that I know that.  

[01:46:16] Unknown:

There's gonna be, like, a game show one day.   Who knows their shitcoin?  

[01:46:21] Unknown:

Name that shitcoin.  

[01:46:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:46:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I did for a future segment. We'll see. Well, there was a there was a shitcoin that used multiple mining algorithms to supposedly make it more decentralized, but   a malicious individual figured out that all you had to do is compromise a single,   algorithm to compromise the whole system. What was the name of that Chickcoin?  

[01:46:45] Unknown:

I don't know.  

[01:46:47] Unknown:

And I I thought we were playing a game show, so I just went for it.   I think it was Verge. Right? Dogecoin dark or whatever.  

[01:46:55] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:46:57] Unknown:

Yeah. But, anyway, that that's another show that we won't do our Shitcoin   our Shitcoin trivia show.  

[01:47:05] Unknown:

So one one thing about Shitcoins is, like,   the Uniswap example on Ethereum. I don't know if you know about this.   Probably, you know. But there's the Uniswap thing that doesn't have a token,   and it's kinda useful thing in the context of Ethereum.   And then they launched another version that has a shitcoin.   I think that's the definition. Like, you don't need that. You had it working without the shitcoin, and then you launch itself that is a point, and you invented some some crap that shitcoin does.  

[01:47:37] Unknown:

I I love that. That issue. Yeah. But you realize what happened. Right? It was a competitor.   It was a competing product released it with a shitcoin that   that made you money if you used it.   The pancake swap or something? No. It was sushi swap. Sushi. I fuck I fucking hate that I know this. It was SushiSwap, and then they were taking all the volume from Uniswap, so then Uniswap added their own token because they didn't want the volume to get taken.   And then   c   z Binance c z fucking just completely cloned the whole Ethereum chain   and made it super centralized with 3 second blocks, and he called it Binance Smart Chain.  

And on that, he created   PancakeSwap,   which is a direct copy of Uniswap and SushiSwap, but is on Binance Smart Chain. So that's that's what's going on in Bitcoin land right now. What what CZ did was he saw  

[01:48:28] Unknown:

Atlenium. He's like, wow.  

[01:48:30] Unknown:

How awesome could a project be if you centralize it? But And he pretty much copied it. But he had good branding instead of Atlaneum. Yeah. You know, I knew it was Chase sounds so much better. Atlenium is better because you can talk to the external  

[01:48:44] Unknown:

world. Like, on Ethereum, you can't. But on on a cleanium, you can you can make HTTP calls to other sites and fetch data. So the Oracle problem is solved.   You you just have to trust the server.  

[01:48:58] Unknown:

So it's not solved?   Yeah. It's not solved. I mean, that's the main issue of the Oracle problem. Right? It's like a trusted third party.  

[01:49:06] Unknown:

Yeah. But you're already trusting the entire   Atlenium   structure.   So  

[01:49:13] Unknown:

Okay. So Lightning Junkie is pretty upset with us for talking about shitcoins. I just wanted just one more thing. Just really just really quickly. Like, this BSC thing is hilarious. Like, this is something that a lot of us have theorized for a while, and Binance finally did it.   It's just that if if you start centralizing   to try and reduce fees and friction,   someone else is gonna come that centralizes further, and you're just gonna it's a race to the bottom. You're just gonna have to compete.   And, Bitcoiners don't talk about it a lot with the BSC thing, but it's like their b cash, but it's actually being done by a,   you know, a a player who's actually very sophisticated in the market, Binance, you know, one of the, probably the most,   popular exchange by volume.  

I mean, who knows how much volume is real, but but he's, like, actually executing on this shit, and he uses the same fucking addresses. Right? Like, we we had,   it's literally the same exact address format. If you look at a BSC address, it looks exactly like an Ethereum address. You can't tell the difference. It's it's an it's exactly the same address. You can switch between even as a setting, you can switch MetaMask that just switches to his chain.   And, like, now we have Portnoy Portnoy. I'm not gonna say the name of the shitcoin, but Portnoy is still the bottom of the battle of shitcoin. Guess what chain it's on? It's on BSC. It's not on Ethereum. So they've played themselves,   and it's it's just pretty fucking hilarious,   case study to watch unfold.  



[01:50:38] Unknown:

Yeah. That's awesome.  

[01:50:40] Unknown:

So Lightning Junkies wants us to talk about any pre vout l 2 channel factories.   Do you guys have strong opinions on them? I mean, they're I think we need we need additional soft fork, to enable that. Right?  

[01:50:57] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think so. Any printout is BIP 118, I think.   And l two builds upon that. I'm not entirely sure.   Then channel factories,   I I don't know too well.   I bet Jeff could speak to a lot of this stuff   better than I could, actually.  

[01:51:18] Unknown:

So   yeah. That's the best soft fork and much better than Taproot,   much more useful than Taproot.   We should have this and not Taproot. If you if you maybe you can have both. Yeah. Probably. You need both. So could you explain what it is in a nutshell to someone who may not know and hasn't been following?   So the basic idea is that   you can create a Bitcoin transaction   that does doesn't reference a previous output.   And then later, after the transaction was already signed and okay,   you assign it to a previous output.   And this enables l two, which is   a much better way to have lightning channels   that you can just keep updating the state and deleting the the previous states because you you can always   you always have a transaction that's pre signed by your peer,   and you you can attach it to any previous state of that channel. So if your peer tries to cheat you, you can attach the the newest version   of the channel to that, and then you're okay.  

So   you don't have to keep track of all the previous states. Like,   currently, you you keep track of a penalty   key for all the previous states.   So it's very cumbersome   and very complex   design.   Yeah. Very, very complex to implement.   And we feel l two is much simpler. So you can have more complex   stuff on top of L2 that you can have today, like this channel factors that they're just channels with more than 1 peer. They they call them, like   Okay.   Multi party channels.   And then is you can have a channel with a bunch of peers, and these and you make   virtual channels between these peers inside this   this this multiparty channel.  

And then if 1 of these like, if 2 of these peers want to exit, they can exit to the change   they can leave their   their the multiparty channel with their own channel,   and they then it becomes a standalone channel. Anyway,   it's it's better. It's it's better for backups. It's better for   watchtowers. You can actually have watchtowers   because in the current model, it's too cumbersome and expensive to have watchtowers.   But if any per watt l 2, you can.   Yeah.   And other things, I don't remember.  

[01:53:47] Unknown:

Unwanted channel closes are gonna decrease too   as,   you know, you you could pop in another input.  

[01:53:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   One of the cause of channel close today is fee negotiation.   Like, when you created the commitment transaction that you need when you want to force close a channel,   the peers have to agree on a fee.   And,   like, they have to agree on a fee that will be filed in the future. So it's complicated.   And when the negotiation doesn't doesn't match, like, one peer wants a higher fee and you want a smaller fee, then they could the channel they they close the channel.   So that's very bad.   But with any pre vouch, you can you can always   pay for the fee at the time you're you're committing the you're you're closing the channel through   child pays for parent things.  

So I think it's better.   And   what else? So you you you remove that step from the from the problem.   Yeah.   Also, in prelaunch is very good because it enables space chains. Watch the video from Ruben Swanson on space chains.  

[01:55:03] Unknown:

I watched that for a   why should I care about space chains?  

[01:55:09] Unknown:

Well, there are some things as I said,   that maybe you want a blockchain for,   but you'd,   like, in 2013,   people were talking about block things you can do in in the blockchain. Most of them are shit, but some of them   were not that bad. But the problem is that to have a blockchain, you need a way to to mine the chain. And to mine the chain, you need the shitcoin. So   no short no blockchain is   is good because they all have shitcoins. But with the space chains, you can have a a blockchain without a Shitcoin   that merge minds with Bitcoin transparently.   So that's it. So you can have one one of the examples actually, the the one example I have is   DNS   because   we're in the real world now, we are all owned by the   ICANN people that are vampires. I don't know who they are, but It's a unique.  

Yeah. Probably.   So   we need an exit from ICANN.   And a blockchain, I think it's the best way. And it's good that now with Spacechains, we can have a   a blockchain for names that isn't a shitcoin.  

[01:56:24] Unknown:

Well, that sounds pretty cool.   I,   I wonder, like, how much   like, I feel like it's hard to for us to grasp what the future looks like. You know? You have all these moving parts. I mean, so much of it is   I mean, it's overwhelming to me, and I spend so much time trying to   understand it.   I wonder, you know,   how much I'm missing when I'm thinking about, you know, what it'll look like in 5 years, what what will the future look in 5 years. I mean, the other big thing I'm   pretty excited about is state change, which I don't think requires any kind of soft fork, period. Oh. It just has an interesting trust model that it requires, in Braveout too.  

[01:57:10] Unknown:

Oh, it does? Yeah. But the the there's the the this version the commerce block is making. Yeah. That one doesn't require. Right? Yeah. That doesn't require. But the with and prevail, they're they're better. They're much better.  

[01:57:22] Unknown:

Without without it,   the the trade off is that   is   you're you're you're trusting that the state chain provider and your counterparty aren't colluding. As long as they don't collude, you're good, though.  

[01:57:37] Unknown:

No. That's with Right. And prevault.   Yeah. That's with and prevault.   Oh. Without entry vault, I think the only difference that they expire, you you use, time locks.   So your state chain thing expires.   You have to go to go to the chain from wire to wire. Which is obviously not ideal in a high fee environment.   Yeah.   But still the the   on the other side, like, on on the real   state change vision,   you still have to trust the the the counterparty that's   the entity.   But the entity can be blind, so it's it's kinda better. They don't have to know about the   they they only have to sign stuff. They don't have to know they are the   federation that's custodian. They're they're not actually custodian thing. They're just signing stuff.  



[01:58:31] Unknown:

Got it. So do you guys think we're gonna get Taproot by the end of the year?  

[01:58:36] Unknown:

Yes.   Definitely.   Probably in the next activation period, it'll lock in.   I mean Yes. I mean The big miners are gonna fuck around.   There's there's gonna be some fucking around, Matt, but there's gonna be a limit to how much, like, these guys can push the envelope.  

[01:58:52] Unknown:

So, Evan, we don't have we don't have the prediction market I want. So, like, do you wanna put money on the line that that the next activation period doesn't,   we don't get we don't get Taproot?  

[01:59:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Let's let's have a friendly wager. What do you say? How much is a friendly wager?   I don't know. Put at least a 100,000 sats down.  

[01:59:15] Unknown:

That's it? Well, let's do, let's do 500,000   sats.  

[01:59:21] Unknown:

500,000   sats. We have 3. Let's do it.  

[01:59:25] Unknown:

Okay. So if if Taproot if Taproot,   passes the threshold I guess it technically doesn't activate. Right? But if it passes the threshold   of 90%   over the next difficulty adjustment,   then I owe you 500,000   sats. And if it doesn't, you owe me 500,000 sats.  

[01:59:42] Unknown:

I I  

[01:59:43] Unknown:

am I'm a 100% in. Let's do it. Okay. Deal. It locks in, but it doesn't activate. Right? If that's that's the proper terminology. Yeah. Yeah. So it's gonna activate  

[01:59:52] Unknown:

in November.   Right. So yeah. But it will lock in. Lock in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So lock in,   and   I'm betting that we'll have a lock in   during the 3rd activation period. Which is the next one. Right? You're not gonna get it for me. Currently on the second one. Each activation period is 2 weeks,   $2,016.   So yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I think I think this one, we we already,   yeah, we already overshot it. We got 11% of the blocks are red.   And, you know, we also things are a little hairy because not all the miners   are signaling consistently.   So btc.com   is,   straggler right now.  

And, without them, we're at 85%.   But with them, we're at, like, 94%   or so.   So,   hey, that's not to say other people won't,   start messing around with 2 claim technical difficulties, say, oh, we're morally opposed to Taproot. Who knows?   I don't think it's gonna be super straightforward,  

[02:00:55] Unknown:

but I think that the majority will prevail.   I think, ironically,   or maybe it's not ironic. I think, like, the recent dump in price   helps taproot activation because, like, if the miners are, you know if if the if the price is just pumping and the miners just feel like they're baller as fuck, then I feel like they're more likely to fuck around. Yeah. But, like, the miners are feeling super poor right now. They, you know, their their net worth just went down by 23%.   So they they might be less likely to to fuck around.  

[02:01:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. That's definitely a factor. But I think it's Yeah. Same thing to assume is they're gonna fuck around with us. They're gonna do someone's gonna do something,   and it it's it's gonna be shortsighted.   But,   let's see how it pans out. Let's see how it pans out. We're we're still not exactly on the money right there with the rate we wanna be.   But, you know, the numbers are looking good. If if our stragglers,   we've already  

[02:01:54] Unknown:

The real question is if Elon supports Taproot or not. I mean, that's that's basically   that that's how these decisions get decided.  

[02:02:03] Unknown:

Yeah. They they phone them up. Elon gets on the phone. He calls up Ellen Big. He's like, yo, Ellen Big was going out.  

[02:02:11] Unknown:

What do you know? Should we know that Ellen Bigg? Ellen Bigg should signal.   Do we have do do we have their opinion on it? We don't know how they feel.   Have them on the show. I mean, I guess all lightning people are very pro Taproot,   rightfully so.  

[02:02:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean No one really has a good argument against Taproot at this point. All our fighting has been about that activated.  

[02:02:35] Unknown:

Yeah.   Ellen Bigg is AXA Insurance. We got he's out of the   I trust him because he said something earlier that I a 100% agree with, which is the Chrysler building is a shitcoin.   Okay. So if we get Taproot, so do we think any prove out is is when do we think that's gonna happen?  

[02:02:55] Unknown:

Next year. Yeah. Hopefully, 2022.  

[02:02:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   And I'm I'm better yet. On ln.  

[02:03:05] Unknown:

So let's see. That's gonna change up a whole bunch of stuff. I mean  

[02:03:09] Unknown:

I think everybody loves any.   No one's against it. And if the program creation does well   and the code is much simpler. The code changes. I think I think, has a branch that's on a Bitcoin cord that already does it in it's small   the small changes. So  

[02:03:35] Unknown:

Okay. Well, I mean, that's optimistic.   I'm, you know, I'm down with supporting that timeline. Do we think,   what about cross input signature aggregation? Is that ever gonna happen?  

[02:03:45] Unknown:

Oh, man.   That is such a loaded can of worms just because, like, we don't really have a great way to do it,   without doing a hard fork, I believe.   So,   you know, I mean, I I think it's something everyone would like to see.  

[02:04:01] Unknown:

I think, we'd be Wait. You can do it with a soft fork, can't you?   I'm I'm not a 100% sure. Someone in the comment If you can't do it without a hard fork, then we're fucked. I thought I thought you could do it this often. Biggest thing right now that it would require a hard fork,  

[02:04:20] Unknown:

the the way that the signatures are   are   read. So Yeah. Needs to come up with a really great way to tackle that,   and then maybe   we'll have it. I I don't know. You know? A lot of people are also posturing like, oh, it's not gonna happen. There's too many corporate interests. It would have provided for too much privacy.   And I don't think that's that's really the case. I think if we found the clean way to do it, I I think it would definitely get activated. But   like I said, there's there's not a great way to do it right now.  

[02:04:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know very much about that. I I heard these things like that. No one has solved it. Like, no one has found a way. But I think, like, after end,   we start to squeeze Bitcoin very much to to put more things on it.   And I I know I don't know if it will work like that.   But I I I'm hopeful that   people will like drivechains, the drive the hash a scroll idea.   And then we can move these things to side chains that are very But the drive change minimize it. The drive change need any preVAP?   No. But,   no. The drive change is 2 parts, like the merge mining, blind merge mining, and the Hash AD s Pro.  

[02:05:36] Unknown:

And we can do the blind Dave?  

[02:05:39] Unknown:

Yes. I think it is.   The merge mining, we can do with any profile. Like, that's how the space change work. And then we only need the HashHatro s pro.  

[02:05:48] Unknown:

That's so that's BIP 300. Right? All the stuff with the merge mining?   Or is that just hash,  

[02:05:55] Unknown:

hash rate? Hash rate. Yeah. That's 300. Yeah. Why why is it not safe? I don't I don't know.  

[02:06:02] Unknown:

I don't know. I just like, why doesn't everyone merge mine? Like, what what what   I I've been hearing about drive change for such a long time. I just, like, assume it's vaporware.   Yeah.  

[02:06:14] Unknown:

I don't know. It's kinda  

[02:06:16] Unknown:

Like, did you realize what happened with Dogecoin and Litecoin?   We're back to the shit coins.   Dogecoin   is worth more than Litecoin,   but it's merge mined with Litecoin. Like, I feel like that broke something,   but I don't know what it broke. But I feel, like, there's gotta be an incentive that's broken there. Like, it they're Litecoin miners that are supposed to mine Dogecoin on the side, and now they're Dogecoin miners that are also mining Litecoin. Right?  

[02:06:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I think the incentives are weird, especially when it's, like, explicit merge money, not blind.   And   and also when there are 2 different shitcoins   in the in the case of drive chain or you you wouldn't have,  

[02:06:58] Unknown:

the sheep. You wouldn't have a sheep coin.  

[02:07:00] Unknown:

Yeah. And   there's there's an argument that it's I think most people don't   try to merge mine because it's not worth doing. Like, the the miners   don't want to to run a node on   a stupid shitcoin thing.   Just like they're mining Bitcoin. You don't want to plug   a terrible software that will crash everything into their their many rigs. I think this was happening, like, the when Namecoin is merged with Bitcoin,  

[02:07:29] Unknown:

and Namecoin used it to crash miners' notes. But but what about, like, something like BCash? Like, are they just   are they just idiots, or, like, why why is why didn't they choose the merge mind route rather than,   you know, like, their 10 block   checkpoint thing with the minority hash rate of the same hash rate of the same algo.   Like, why didn't they merge mine?   I think they're idiots. What's this? Ethash? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is the answer. I mean, they're definitely idiots, but I'm curious if that's why they're they're not merge mining or   if they're just they're you know,   that would be even dumber. It'd be even dumber if they if they merge mine than if they do what they're currently doing. Like, I don't even see people offer that as an option. Like, no one talks about that in p cash flow or no one talked about now it's worthless or whatever. Okay. No one really talked about it.  



[02:08:23] Unknown:

No. I think the problem is that the miners wouldn't   want to run these softwares. But if it's blind merge mining, like like the space change model,   then the miners don't have to know about it. You just merge mine by publishing transactions, normal Bitcoin transactions, and the miners just  

[02:08:39] Unknown:

use this. So Like how does that work, the merge mining? So, like, let's say I'm a Litecoin miner. Right? And, you know, Dogecoin's piggybacking on it.   And I'm like, listen. I don't care about Dogecoin. I don't wanna do this extra computation. I don't care about the extra reward I'm gonna get.   So when I mine my blocks, do does Doge not get a block mined and effectively Dogecoin users have to wait until a miner comes and mines a block that   does include Dogecoin?  

[02:09:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it is. That's that's the way it is. RSK is blind is merge mining with Bitcoin, so the miners have to run RSK nodes. And   I think 70% are doing it. You you can look at the  

[02:09:23] Unknown:

the Coinbase of the blocks. Most of the they don't have an RSK block thing or an operator. Yeah. But, like, what does that mean? Like, is that secure, or is that bullshit? Is that, like, a bullshit number when when Sergio comes out and he's, like, 70 like, he's, like, we have we have one of the most hash rates out of any chain, you know, besides Bitcoin. We have 70% of Bitcoin hash rate is is merge mining   RSK. Like, is that just bullshit?  

[02:09:48] Unknown:

I think it's partly bullshit, but it's also partly good.   It's bullshit because it's not the same security   model of Bitcoin,   but it's also a good way of doing.   You you need some time stamping thing   on your chain, and the the best way to do it is just to use the Bitcoin chain.   But on the other hand, it's not secure in the sense that you can't it's hard to roll back. It's it's easier to roll back RSK than it is to roll back Bitcoin.  

[02:10:18] Unknown:

It's it's got a property of that. Like, if you attack,   let's say, Litecoin or   Rootstock, whatever, you or you you attack the main chain that all the merge mining is piggybacking on. You can also hack or 51% attack,   you know, the sub trends. So, like, if you  

[02:10:38] Unknown:

Do I have to that's a given. That's a given. But, I mean, that it basically incentivizes   it it further monetizes an attack on the main chain. But   but, like, I'm trying to struggle with I'm struggling with the idea of this, like, 70% merge mined with Bitcoin.   Like, does that make it more secure   than a independent   chain that has a different POW, like, like Ethereum, you know,   that has a different algorithm, but it's POW, separate POW,   less hash rate that 70% of Bitcoin's hash rate.   Is probably more secure than I mean, there's other elements to it. Right? But proof of work wise, it's probably more secure than this merge mind RSK shit.   Yeah. That's hard to control. It's so weird because we, like, talk about all these theoreticals. Right? And then it's like,   you know, like, central super centralized, like, Binance chain doesn't get attacked or anything. You know? It's like we have, like, these super central Dogecoin. Right? Like, there's, like, 3 people running Dogecoin nodes. Right? Like, no one is   they they keep all their Dogecoin on Robinhood or whatever, and no one actually attacks it. So, like, until, like, people, like, actually   until, like, these chains actually get attacked, it's all just kind of theoretical bullshit. But they many of many of the those who were attacked, like,   Ethereum Classic was attacked many times. Yeah. Ethereum Classic got fucking wrecked.  



[02:12:00] Unknown:

Yes. Well, you know, like, a lot of them merged out. It's really about the lowest hanging fruit in a lot of these situations. You know what I mean? Like, the the coins that are easiest to crack   on certain hash rates. I mean, certain algorithms are gonna get cracked first.   You know? Why not? If you're building up this capacity to do it, like Right. Like those lower hash rate chains are sort of like,   canaries in the coal mine.  

[02:12:25] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean so maybe I'm just being   skeptical for skeptical's sake. But for whatever reason, my gut just, like, every time I see this merge mine shit, I just don't trust it and just seems wrong to me, but I can't put my finger on it.  

[02:12:40] Unknown:

So how does it work then   in, say, a drive chain. Right? Like, if there's no block subsidy   for it because you're not making a shitcoin,  

[02:12:49] Unknown:

like, how how does that work? Well, we pay fees, and then the the sidechain miner uses those fees to pay for block space on the main chain.  

[02:12:58] Unknown:

Gotcha.  

[02:13:00] Unknown:

So that's the the security model. I think it's   I'm not sure, but it's I think it's safe to say it's based on the money   spent. It's just a cleaner way to do it. You spend money and you secure the chain. You don't have to buy poor proof of work stuff, ASICs,   and video cards   and start mining things. And you just reuse Bitcoin, and you pay money for it.  

[02:13:26] Unknown:

Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense. Fair enough.  

[02:13:31] Unknown:

So, I mean, before we close this up, I mean, I wanted to talk about,   I guess you're, like, working on this, like, distributed,   like, broadcasting cloud, like a distributed Twitter. I think you're calling it Nostra.   Yeah. Did I pronounce it right?  

[02:13:47] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm not sure. I I don't think about how to pronounce Phoenix. Clearly.  

[02:13:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, how do you say if you have Jeff? Are we saying that right? He doesn't even know. Yeah. He sure Does it matter?  

[02:14:03] Unknown:

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.  

[02:14:06] Unknown:

So what is this? Nostra.  

[02:14:08] Unknown:

Oh, that's   a way   the best way I could find to to   stop the censorship stuff   on the Internet   and,   like, Twitter censorship.   But then it I realized it could be used for more stuff, and   it's   I'm not sure how to explain it.   It's a it's a it's a decentralized   thing, but it's not peer to peer. You have servers, and you connect to the servers,   and you send your stuff to these servers.   And someone else can listen to this stuff. Like, the server will send to them. And you can use multiple servers,   and   you're always safe because there will always be some server that even like, the idea is that the servers will block you,   but you you can use another server. But you you want your identity, like, it's not like Mastodon.  

The server   knows it it knows it owns your identity.   So if the server blocks you, you're screwed.   And   but With Mastodon,  

[02:15:14] Unknown:

the server owns your identity too. Right?  

[02:15:17] Unknown:

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Sorry. Right.   Mastodon, the server owns your identity. On those server, you won't because it's a a Oh. A key pair.   And then you just use the server to publish   stuff. And this the the server blocks you you have other servers that you're also publishing to, and you can also start your own server and people can follow you in any server   as long as they know your your public key. Or you can use some kind of DNS stuff to give that public key a readable name.  

[02:15:50] Unknown:

So it's like a federated Twitter where you control your identity because it's a public private key pair?  

[02:15:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Basically that. And, like, it's it's a small change, or, like, this is the that's the essential change between that and   NoSIR and   Mastodon.   But you you you get a ton of cool things with this change. Like, the fact that it becomes like a a   network for enemies in the sense that you can have multiple servers,   and we we call them relays.   But each can have its own policy. 1 can do k o k o s c, and the other can just ban certain topics, and the other can be free, and the other can charge. One can store your stuff for you. The other can just relay it and delete it.   And you it's a very flexible model. And since you since   and there's there's a way to pay for these things because your   your you have a relationship with your server, and you know that server.  

And then that server can charge you for extra things or the basic service of relaying your things. So you can use that to pass more things than just   Twitter messages.  

[02:17:01] Unknown:

I think it works. And, theoretically, that could be, like, your lightning public key too  

[02:17:06] Unknown:

if we're just gonna Yeah. Right? Yeah. It could be. I made it, like, because I was very feeling very fancy. I made the public key in the protocol to be   tap root keys, like the the   342  

[02:17:19] Unknown:

keys. Very cocky.  

[02:17:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Because I I thought, oh, maybe someone wants to do some   weird cryptographic stuff with these keys, but, yeah, it doesn't make much difference.  

[02:17:33] Unknown:

The the new points that yeah. That's the main negative of Mastodon. Right? So, like, to the freaks I don't know, Mastodon's like a federated version of Twitter,   but that has competition among the servers, which are, you know, the different federations.   I think instances are what they call them.   But what happens is because you don't own your identity,   you know, there's still a lot of friction if if if whatever server you're using decides to fuck you   or, you know, get very censorship happy. It's it's hard to move your social graph,   your followers and your following or whatever,   to,   you know, a way, to mitigate that kind of thing. It there's there's a heavy friction layer there. Right?  



[02:18:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. They have a way to export, but it assumes the server is cooperative.  

[02:18:24] Unknown:

Right. The server will the whole purpose. In fact. Yeah. So if you're kicked off, like, there's no way of moving the team. Yeah.  

[02:18:32] Unknown:

And that they they also have this this narrative that   each instance has its own identity. Like, you have an instance for some kind of people and then another for other kind of people. But in the end,   like,   if if I join a server that only allows talking about football, and then I I start following people from other servers,   The football server, we will have to fetch all these posts from the these other servers that are not   their their its main interest,   and then it becomes a I think it doesn't scale very much.   It only scales if there's some big servers, and I don't know. I'm   not sure.  

But I I don't think the incentives are aligned. I don't know how it's working   to this day, but seems to be working. But the the the main problem is this, of the identity.  

[02:19:25] Unknown:

I dig it. I like that concept. I mean, that was the main thing that was pushing me away. And to be honest, like, the freak say, like, why don't I use masks? I'm more like, fuck social media.   Like, I just you know, I'm gonna use Twitter till I get banned and then   sayonara.   You know, I use I like the private group chats. I I think it's   a it's a healthier it's a healthier way to stay in touch with people and have   real discussions.   Obviously, I think dispatch is a great format for real discussion as well.   Yes. So, I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.  

Oh,   this is one thing I wanna talk about, l and URL. So we have the we have the QR code on the bottom left.   I saw you, like,   talking shit about the lnurl   maintainer.   Like, the,  

[02:20:20] Unknown:

you wanna talk about the maintainer now. Yeah. Or now you're the maintainer.  

[02:20:26] Unknown:

Hell, yeah. That's all you have to do. Listen up, kid. You have an open source project out there. You don't like the way things are being run. All you have to do is go talk shit on the maintainer, and it's gonna be yours now.  

[02:20:39] Unknown:

No. It's name Robson or something?  

[02:20:42] Unknown:

That that was not the maintainer. Like, that's just the guy who had the initial idea   for channels.   The the first idea was   with, like, getting a channel automatically   from us,   a peer from your mobile wallet. And then it was implemented by BOW.   And then Anton was the maintainer, but then he gave the repository to me. I think he   got didn't like it anymore. I don't know.   But the guy who invented it,   he thought he he he thought that   by encoding the like, this QR code, it has a bunch of garbage on   it, bunch of letters, and these letters are batched 32 encoded URLs, normal URLs.   And it could be just,   a normal   a plain URL instead of the batch 32 thing. But but the guy thought that the QR codes would be smaller if you encoded it in this batch 32 thing. Mhmm. But in fact, they aren't. Like, you could he could have checked this in one minute, but he didn't.  

So now we're stuck with this protocol that we can't change now because it will break everything.  

[02:21:56] Unknown:

Oh, no. That would be easier if it was just a URL. It was just a Yeah. Plain text QR code URL. Right? Yes. Yes.   So we can't change it now? Why can't we change it now? Like, how are we on your end user? Man. Just put in a pull request. What's going on?  

[02:22:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I could just change the thing on the the protocol, and then that will just break everything.  

[02:22:17] Unknown:

There's not there's not many wallets that support it yet. Right? Are there? I mean, BLW supports it. Wallet and Satoshi supports   it. Zeus supports it.   Does Zeus support it?  

[02:22:29] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Well, we support a bunch of them, and it's mostly yeah. Jeff's doing.   But,   we we don't support, what is it, channel or auth yet?   I'd really like to get auth in. I think auth is my favorite one. This is cheap. These things are all different. Like, they're separate. It's weird that they all have the same name. But Yeah. They're different concepts sort of Yeah. On top of Lightning.   But, yeah, they all have to be implemented separately.   But, yeah, auth is the idea that you can, you know, be connected on your to your node. Right? And then you were presented with a QR code on-site to log in. You scan it.   Your node talks to the web server, and, you get logged in. I think   that's really awesome way to get rid of passwords in a lot of places.  

So, Jeff, my question is, what the hell do we have to do to get this working in Zeus?  

[02:23:23] Unknown:

Well,   I don't know. You have to look at what Breeze did,   because they they did something with the LND keys.   Yeah. You you just have to to use a a private key.   Where that does that private key comes from doesn't matter very much very much, but it's it's better   if you were reusing your Bitcoin seed key.   So   yeah.  

[02:23:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Gotcha. Last time I was looking at it, LND needed a fix, but, yeah, it seems like the Breeze guys has some sort of workaround.  

[02:23:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. There's a workaround. You you I think they   they LND has that sign message thing, and you can sign a message that's in the protocol, like, on the in the LNUR   of spec. Like, you sign a default message, and you use that signature because it's deterministic.   You use that as your LNUR   key.   So   Yeah. Yeah. That's just a way to generate the key from the LND node.   And and you need a different key for each site too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Then you take that key and you h mac it with   the website's   the domain. Domain name. Yes. The. Then you have a key for the website. But the idea is that you you only need the the the seed key from LND, and you can generate all the other keys. Yeah. Yeah. But this is a very old idea, like the the idea of ln URL.   There's a protocol called s q squirrel,   s q r l something   that did this exact same thing. Something you named it.  

Sorry.   Okay.   And there's the   bit bit I.   What's what is called? Bit I Bit ID. I don't I don't know. Someone did a Bitcoin case. But this is true, and maybe there are others.   The the problem with them is that you can't manage the middle people.   You can   make the   a website can make you sign something that's actually valid for the other website, and then they steal your   your credentials.   But,   lnurloff   solves that by generosity,   by   making these keys   get they are different for each domain.  

[02:25:47] Unknown:

And in practice in practice, what the user is seeing is and I and I   I may or may not have tested this out with lnmarkets.com,   is that you can just, like, sign you could just you just open a lightning wallet that's compatible. I mean, Phoenix is the one that I tried it with. I did or I didn't try it with. And then you just scan the QR code, and it just automatically signs you in. And every time you wanna sign back in, you just scan the QR code. And it's as simple as that for the end user. Right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Rules. Rules w two. It doesn't it doesn't have to be a lightning wallet, actually. Could be any key.   Right. But I'm just saying I'm saying in in practice, this is what a Bitcoin user would see probably. Right? They probably would see a lightning one. The cool part is you already have the wallet. Right? And you're and, presumably, you're gonna be funding the service with that same wallet. Right? So you use lnurl   for withdrawals, and you use lightning for deposits, and you use lnurl off for   I guess you could use lnurl to pay as well, but you you can use the whole stack. What's interesting is ln markets is down, by the way, right now.  

Amazon   Amazon CloudFront.   Oh, block for my country. It's because I oh, I see. My VPN is is in America right now.  

[02:27:03] Unknown:

It happens.  

[02:27:04] Unknown:

It happens.   VPNs don't exist, so, like, of course, the IP blocks work.   So the   so we we hit that. That was so I think Ellen URL to me,   you know, maybe I'm a little bit biased as a content creator, but   it's kind of to me, it's like this holy grail that we've been working for for a while where,   and I see this in in the work I do with activists who are trying to accept donations.   This idea that we could have,   like, a fixed   some kind of fixed text or fixed QR code that never changes,   that still allows you to accept donations in a relatively private way.   Because let's be honest. Like, if you're accepting donations, like, BTC pay server is way too heavy. Like, that's that's ridiculous.  

So would you agree, Fio, Jeff, that, like, that's kind of our best path forward right now? Like, you know, stealth addresses, you know, aren't really happening on Bitcoin.  

[02:28:06] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think it's good for donations.   They're a new pay thing. But,   yeah, I think it's good for donations.   But my idea with it, initially, when I suggested   it, was, like, to make things in the physical world   with it.   Because on the on the website, if you're joining web open a website, the website can generate a, like, invoice, not a normal, like, an invoice   to you at any at any time. But in the in the in the streets,   like, you're and you're going you want to buy some food on the street, and the the seller can just have a single QR code there. And you scan it, and the the seller knows your bot   and that kind of thing.  

There are many many niche niche use cases like this.   Yeah. But for for streams like this, like, you use this, it's good to   and the the it besides just making a payment, there's also   like, you can return stuff to the user so you can have some form of interactivity there. Like, the user receives a code on their wallet, and they use the code to open a door or something, Or   they   I don't know. If if you saw, like, there's there's videos from,   I forgot what the channel is, but that's BTC socialist   is in these videos. Right. And he puts a a QR code with a handler there. And if you scan and pay you a hand a 100 sets,   like, he gets slapped in the face by a Right. And he smoked bombs and stuff.  



[02:29:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Classic.  

[02:29:43] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[02:29:44] Unknown:

That's that's the visual that's the visual I had. And he's working on he's working on that with Ellen Bits, I think, like, to have,   I I guess that's it. He's the lead maintainer of that project to to create, like, basically a streamer school toolkit.   If you're a streamer and you want to   add the add these things, he's, like, making it so it works with,   OBS,   which is, like, a very common software that streamers use.   So, Fia, Jeff, I mean, one of the things that I really like about you is that you're super contrarian. I feel like you're always, like, mouthing off at people,   on Twitter, but but you do it from a, like, a builder's point of view. Like, I feel like you're also,   you know, like, you're building   you're building products that you know, projects that   that I feel like there's just, like, not that much focus on. Like, once again, like,   l l n t x bot, like, you think it's, like, this boring project,   but it's, like, a super useful thing that, like, I assume, you know, thousands of people are are it's probably one of the more popular lightning wallets.  

No one's competing with you. Like, no one's even bothering to try.   What is like, before we leave here, like, what is   for the freaks, like, what is you know hit us with some contrarianism. Like, what what is a common fallacy that Bitcoiners powered all the time? What is something that frustrates you?   You know? Like, what like,  

[02:31:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That's   well, the the last the latest one I've I've been thinking about is the the problem of lightning   HTLCs.   Like, there's this FUD from the caches.   I don't know if you remember, like,   some time ago. The guy is saying that, oh, HDLCs,   they they don't work for small payments because they are uneconomical,   and then everybody got mad at him. I just I forgot the name. Oh, it's Peter Rieseau, I think, was saying this.   But he's right, and everybody refused to acknowledge that, I think, or they acknowledge, but they say, oh, it's not a big problem. Because,   when you   when you   make a lightning payment, the HDLC,   it goes to like, you you create a virtual you create an output   for the HTLC   on your   commitment transaction.  

And then if that HTLC   if the peer   fails you, like,   you have to close the channel and then redeem that HTLC.   Either the the receiver redeems it with a preimage   or the sender re redeems it after a time out. That's the the the the point.   And   for most well, like, if if the fees are, like, $5,   most lightning payments are below $5. And   when they're   over $5,   they get splitted by MPP,   and so they get below the the the threshold.   And then you don't create these these HDLCs   because they would be an economical to redeem on the chain. So they just don't exist,   and the the amounts go to the to the minor fees of that transaction if they that transaction ever gets published.  

But the the node implementations,   they act like   like like if the HDLCs existed.   So   the HDLC doesn't exist. You can't redeem it, but your note says, oh, the other note isn't cooperating.   I'll close the channel to redeem the HDLC, and then it closes the channel. And then it the only day is realized there's no HDLC there, so it closed the channel for no reason.   So I've I've been talking to some people,   about this idea, and most of the people I'm talking to, they were they were like, oh, I think it's not so bad, but I think this is really bad.   Yeah.  

That was a contrary, very complex, I think.   There there there's ways to improve this that I came up with, but other people may come up with better ways.  

[02:33:56] Unknown:

I mean, the main takeaway, right, is that, like, if if you do a transaction   on lightning that's under the dust limit   of whatever the dust limit is at any given time,   potentially dust limit in the future,   then all of a sudden, that's not a trust minimized payment anymore. Right? Because there's no way to actually settle it.   That's the that's the crux of the   issue.  

[02:34:19] Unknown:

Yeah. And then the the entire lightning protocol assumes that you get a preimage that's a proof of your payment.   Right. But you don't get that preimage if the channel if the if the like, in a normal HDLC, the ideal world in which everything is HDLCs,   you would get   that. Even if a channel failed in the middle,   the the the party would still see the preimage on the chain and pass the preimage back back until it gets to the to the sender.   But if these HDFCs don't exist,   there's no preimage. So you could have paid. The person could have received the payment,   but you never get a proof of payment.  

I think this is serious because   Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't happen very often, I think. Or maybe it it does it, but we don't know.   But I think this is serious, and I think people should stop pretending it lightning is fully trustless, like and   face the fact that these payments aren't trustless,   and then do something about it instead of just assuming they are and closing the channels for no reason.  

[02:35:29] Unknown:

And what I feel like happens is, like, whenever you bring it up, like   like, there's there's just, like, a lot of hand waving. Like, oh, well, like, you should just pick trusted channel partners.   Yeah. But that doesn't Like, what are we doing here?  

[02:35:43] Unknown:

Yeah. But even if you have trusted channel partners, like, the it's   most of the times, it's not the fault of your channel partner. It's not the channel partner trying to cheat on you. It's just a fail a a bug or some other beer,   did something on on the on the web.  

[02:36:00] Unknown:

The confirmation not getting all the way back. Yeah. It's definitely a issue then. But if it would be much better, the protocol, if we  

[02:36:08] Unknown:

face this this fact and   realize it's not fully trustless, but   we can still use it and   stop closing channels for no reason.  

[02:36:20] Unknown:

Yeah. If you want trustless, then you use the main chain and and pay the fees as,   you know, as you have to because because you're using a a, you know,   a a very robust protocol.   And if you wanna if you wanna lighter trade off balance,   that is cheaper and faster,   that requires a little bit more trust, then you use Lightning. Right?  

[02:36:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   And I think a a better model   for these that involves more trust   and maybe 3rd party arbiters to to prevent   abuses,   like, would scale better   and would allow for other kinds   of payment protocols to be integrated with   more easily.   I don't know. And, also, we would we could use p t   p p t lcs, like the the   DLC stuff   Today without without Taproot   because it wouldn't tap on the chain.   It would never go to the chain.  

[02:37:26] Unknown:

Without Taproot?   Yeah. Without Taproot. Would you wanna jump into that? I mean, I'm a little bit confused on what you just said there.  

[02:37:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   No. No.   Let's skip this.  

[02:37:38] Unknown:

Okay. Fair enough. That's what I love about Bitcoin. I feel like   we're all just different levels of confused, and we're just doing it together.  

[02:37:47] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm definitely confused.  

[02:37:52] Unknown:

I mean, this has been a great conversation.   I really appreciate you joining us. I mean, like, I I think I said this in the beginning. I don't know if we're on air yet, but this is   your your first English language podcast,   which is fucking awesome. I it's I'm very proud of the amount of   podcast virginities I've taken here on dispatch over the last, 22 episodes.   I think it's   it's just a it's it's it's just it's awesome. I I I I wanna do something different with dispatch. I don't wanna do more of the same. There's a lot of content out there for you freaks,   and I, you know, I wanted to do something unique and something something different that added value.  

So   every day that I get to do that with dispatch is fucking awesome.   Yeah. We have John Fisher in the comments over my head. One of the other cool things is I one thing I've noticed with bit devs,   is, like, I feel like even if the over the head stuff is happening around you, you kinda just, like,   you absorb some of it, and you just keep doing it, and you'll just keep absorbing it. I only understood how Bitcoin based things work, like, after many years of not  

[02:39:06] Unknown:

thinking I I had understood what was wrong, and then I read something old.   And I didn't understand that it's not it was   terrible, but it's good in the end.  

[02:39:17] Unknown:

Exactly.   I'd like if you're not, you know,  

[02:39:21] Unknown:

if you're not confused, you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough, I think, is, like, a a relatively good rule of thumb. Yeah. Yeah. And don't pretend you, like, know something you don't. Like, it's such a deep rabbit hole with all these sub rabbit holes you can get sucked down to and you know? It's obviously impossible to keep track of it all.  

[02:39:39] Unknown:

So with all that said,   do you guys have any final topics that you wanna discuss before we wrap it up here?  

[02:39:51] Unknown:

I don't think so. Jeff, you got anything?  

[02:39:54] Unknown:

Oh, I've talked too much.  

[02:39:57] Unknown:

Not enough. You have not talked enough. It it's been an honor to have you here. You gotta come back on,  

[02:40:03] Unknown:

do some other issues. I'm sure Matt will pair you up with someone who pokes a little less fun at you. But I'm still  

[02:40:09] Unknown:

I'm still a little bit shocked you came on for you, Jeff, to be honest. I it's it's been an honor.  

[02:40:15] Unknown:

Good. Okay.  

[02:40:17] Unknown:

Well, I appreciate both of you guys. I appreciate the work you've done. I appreciate you coming on.   I encourage you to continue your work. I will do my best,   from my pedestal to support you guys and use your   projects   and   advocate for people to support and use them as well.   On that note,   if you're an open source contributor   and you're looking for funding,   consider submitting your project at opensats.org.   We're gonna be announcing   our first sets of grants   very soon,   probably at the conference. We'll see on June 4th, June 5th in Miami.   If you haven't already,   consider   donating to the   Bitcoin car at the Indy 500   that is being led by Jack Mahler's. He will not be driving it. Ed Carpenter will be driving it. But,   he he is leading the initiative, and all those funds are going to open source development, Bitcoin focused open source development. You can get that at strike.me/racing.  

Also, as I said earlier in the show, any donations that came in through that lnurlqr   code,   during the length of the show will be split 5050   between me to recoup costs and, the IndyCar.   You should also pressure   every company in the space   and every person who likes to flex about how much Bitcoin they own on Twitter,   into donating here. It's a very baller initiative. We have a race car that will win the race.   It's a very flashy race car, and it's a good time to peer pressure your favorite influencer and corporation, so consider doing that.   Yeah. With all that said, I thank both of you guys.  

Evan, I'll see you in Miami.   Fiat, Jeff, I hope to meet you one day in person and,   split a beer. Well, we could have our own beers, but but share beers.   And thank you both.  

[02:42:16] Unknown:

Thank you.  

[02:42:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Thanks again for having me again, Matt.   Cheers, freaks.  

[02:42:34] Unknown:

Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Wake up, mister West, mister West, mister Fresh, mister by himself, he's so impressed.   I mean, damn, did you even see the test? You got d's mom, The d's, Rosie Perez. And yes, barely passed. Any and every class looking at every f. Cheated on every test, I guess. This is my dissertation,   homie, this this basic. Welcome to graduation.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   On this date, we've become legendary.   Everything we dreamed of. I'm like the fly Malcolm x by any genes necessary. Detroit red cleaned up   from the streets of the league, from an eighth to a key. But you graduate when you make it about it. Streets from the moments of pain. Look how far we done came. Hate to say and you change, now you're doing your thing. Good morning.  

Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning.   Good morning. Look at the valedictorian,   scared of the future while I hop in in delorean.   Scared to face the world, complacent career student. Some people graduate, but you're still stupid. They tell you read this, eat this. Don't look around, just peep this. Preachers, teachers, Jesus. Okay. Look up now. They done stole your street ness. After all of that, you received this.  

[02:45:30] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. Thank you for tuning in for another Bitcoin Tuesday. You guys make it all worth it.   Just a quick reminder that   CITIL Dispatch is available on all of your favorite podcast apps.   It makes me feel dirty, but consider subscribing   and giving a good review. It does go a long way. I do appreciate it.   I will see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. I'll see you next Tuesday for Citadel dispatch. I have about   20   dispatch first run hats left. If you want 1, hit me up   via Telegram or Keybase.   I love you all. Stay humble, stack sets.   200 k by conference day still in play.