Citadel Dispatch

Share on social media:

EPISODE: 0.2.1

BLOCK: 683157

PRICE: 1759 sats per dollar

TOPICS: bitcoin and lightning privacy

@openoms: https://twitter.com/openoms

@cycryptr: https://twitter.com/cycryptr

streamed live every tuesday:  

https://citadeldispatch.com

twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch​

bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos

podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch​  

telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch​ 

support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell

stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/

join the chat: http://citadel.chat/

[00:00:01] Unknown:

And 85% of the transactions are still done in in in the dollar.   You pointed out in in a recent speech that you think we've crossed the Rubicon.   Are are you comfortable saying what what you said there that that that for the first time in your career, you think we lose   reserve status   at some point?  

[00:00:20] Unknown:

I'm comfortable with it. That's my central case. As you know, Joe, I can change my mind.   But yeah.   You said   that to some extent,   the Fed is enabling the fiscal transfers.   It's not to some extent. They couldn't be doing this without the Fed. The Fed is monetizing their activity.   I mentioned all the QE after vaccine confirmation and retail sales.   We've had 850,000,000,000   of direct transfers.   575,000,000,000   of them came after retail sales   were above trend. 575   of the 850,000,000,000.   I'm old enough to remember the the bond market vigilantes.   I used to be one of them. Without the Fed buying, I don't know what the exact number is. I think it's 60% of all the debt issued   that the bond markets would be totally rejecting this.  

So they are enabling   this massive expansion in fiscal policy. And the problem is   if you end up getting inflation,   and frankly,   even if you don't,   the debt is gonna be so big.   You remember I did my entitlement talks 8 or 9 years ago. That's all happened except for one thing, the interest rate level.   So we're right now in the crux of when the demographic   when the baby boomers accelerate   in terms of of getting Medicare, Medicaid, social security, that stuff.   Right as we're doing that, we just put 6,000,000,000,000   of new debt on. Again, all enabled by the fed. These guys cannot be doing it. Bond rates would go to a prohibitive level. So my my issue here is   in the future,   as we go forward,   if you look at do you have chart 5 up there?  



[00:02:07] Unknown:

Let's get it. I think we can do it. Which one?  

[00:02:11] Unknown:

It's federal spending. Social Security and major health care programs.   Federal spending is percent of GDP.   This is the CBO. This is not me.   Okay? And they're saying   if 10 years go to 4.9%,   which is their normalized projection,   the interest expense alone   will be close to 30% of GDP   every year. That's basically what we just spent on the COVID emergency   in the last year.   There is no way   we can afford to have 30% of all government outlays be be toward interest expense. So what will happen is the Fed will have to monetize that. When they monetize it,   I believe   it'll have horrible implications for the dollar. And that's why I said in that speech,   yes, that I think it's more likely than not within 15 years we lose reserve currency status.  



[00:03:46] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another   Citadel dispatch.   It's been oh, I heard another pop. Love to hear that. There's a vehicle pop.   Let's fucking go. It's been 21 Bitcoin Tuesdays in a row with all y'all.   How is that? That is that is insane to me. That is crazy. I fucking love it.   21 straight. This is Citadel Dispatch episode 21,   the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.   To all of the freaks coming in through our audio streams, That was legendary investor Stanley Drunkenmiller with our boy Joe Kernan on CNBC,   calling for the end of   the reserve status for the US dollar,   and not sounding like a crazy person on mainstream financial television.  

That's pretty fucking ridiculous to me, and I feel like that is not quite priced in. But,   there's plenty of people on Bitcoin Twitter that would probably disagree with me on that one.   I want to do a quick shout out to all the ride or dive freaks who come in every week for this live chat.   You guys make the show what it is.   Without you, it, you know, it it just it wouldn't happen. So I I appreciate all y'all, and I want you to, be active as always in the live chat,   so we can work off of you. And then, of course, I just wanna do another quick shout out to all the freaks   that have been supporting the show,   through the various methods, whether that's podcasting 2.0, streaming stats,   or Sphinx tribe, Citadel dispatch,   going to citadel dispatch.com,   or the handy little lnurl   that we have at the bottom left hand corner of the video streams.  

As always, this video stream is being going is going out to Twitch, Twitter, and YouTube.   Now we also have it going out to bitcoin tv.com.   If you use it over there, you can participate in the chat, but you do get the benefit of going through sovereign servers rather than corporate servers.   With all that said,   I wanna do I wanna thank our 2 guests here today for joining us. We have Open Arms, return guest. You guys all know him,   Good friend,   who just you know, he one of my favorite parts about Open Arms is after almost every episode,   he sends me a breakdown of,   things that either I got wrong or the guest got wrong. So I appreciate that Open Arms.  



[00:06:22] Unknown:

Well, my man hi, everyone.   Not every not every episode of this.  

[00:06:27] Unknown:

Not every episode, but you're pretty you're pretty good about it, and I do appreciate it. You do make the show better. Yeah. That's true.   Thank you very much. And and we have Anthony Ronning,   who   is a ride or die freak himself. I'm pretty sure he's been in this live chat almost all of the 21 episodes,   and he's an independent software engineer. And this week, he released   a great rundown of   Lightning Privacy   and   the nuances of it and the shortcomings   and the future, and we're gonna be going all into that. How's it going, Anthony?  

[00:07:04] Unknown:

Hey, everyone.   No. It's an honor, to be on. Thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time guest.   Yeah. I didn't even realize it was the 21st episode. That's crazy.   Yeah. No. I'm excited to dive into the topic. It's,   it's been a very interesting month, researching it myself.  

[00:07:23] Unknown:

And it's one of me and Open Arms' favorite topics. I think it's one of the favorite topics of the show in general.   We started off the show with varied topics, but I think if you broke down the 21 episodes,   most of them are about lightning and privacy.   So I feel like this is kind of a culmination episode in a lot of ways.   So let's start off with this post. I mean, I don't know how we wanna go about it.   The link, if to the freaks that are not aware,   is on the bottom of the screen. A bytesjourney.com/lightningdash   privacy.  

It's a great post. If you haven't read it yet, consider going and reading it after the show.   So where do you where do you guys wanna start on this? Do you guys have, you know  

[00:08:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think,   maybe as as part of a inspiration of of why I wanted to write it. I'm   I've been playing around with lightning for quite a while and kinda got serious,   with my own lightning note about, you know, 6 or 7 months ago with, my raspi plits.   Love the thing. Shout out to OpenNoms   and the team there.   And, you know, one of the things I I   I never felt comfortable with was, like, sharing my node identity with people, because it, you know, has my all my UTXOs and,   you know, invoice and stuff. So I think, like, a large part of the inspiration was just trying to figure out myself, like, okay, how would if I were to restart and get get a brand new node, how should I go about,   you know, trying to achieve privacy on the Lightning Network? And everyone's kinda default has been, yeah. Yeah. Lightning is private.  

And it's kind of funny. Edward Snowden even, this weekend, you know, called out and and called lightning shenanigans, which I think that was maybe a misspoke,   for the most part, an overreaction maybe. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's not   just hand wavy private. And I think that's one of the main, you know, things I wanted to get out of the article is that there's, you know, there's always nuance, but there's tons of nuance here.   And, you know, I'm I'm happy to dive into it anyway, but, one of the main things is just there's there's a lot of ways to go about it.   To try to achieve privacy,   you know, from setting up your node to funding it, opening channels,   even closing channels, and what you do with the outputs from there, and,   even sending payments and and the types of things that, you know, can be revealed as you send payments across the network.  

Yeah. Now it's it's a big topic, so I'm happy to, you know, start the computation off anyway.  

[00:09:59] Unknown:

For starters, I think you make a very good point there. I I think when it comes to privacy in general,   if you hear anyone ever hand waving things   and telling you that you have absolute perfect privacy   and not explaining any kind of trade offs or nuances,   They're probably acting in bad faith, or they don't know better. But either way, you shouldn't be   you should be extra skeptical of anything that comes out in that direction.   So, I mean, yeah, let's so let's jump in here. I mean, one of my concerns about lightning   or   I I guess, let's start with the positive. The positive is   pure the pure positive of Lightning is that with Bitcoin,   we have all of our transactions   on a public ledger   that we expect to last forever. And when I mean forever, I mean forever, ever. Right? Like, this thing is gonna last for a long fucking time.  

It's designed to be extremely robust,   and that record of all your transactions will always be there.   So from a a a pure   over like, a a big picture kind of point of view,   Lightning is a strict improvement over that   because your transactions aren't stored on this thing.   For a lot of the things that we're gonna talk about here for this post,   it involves an active attacker, an attacker who is, you know, constantly surveilling the lightning network   and recording that data for themselves forever. Right? They're they're they're actually doing active surveillance.   With   with the Bitcoin main chain,   what we what we see happen a lot is an attacker can come in after the fact. They can come in 4 years later, 5 years later, and they can look at all that historical data and use it against you.  

Would you say that's a fair,   like, entry overview here?  

[00:11:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.   That and that's a really good distinction too.   Pretty much 90, 95% of the article is,   you know, what an active attacker could do. So yeah.  

[00:12:06] Unknown:

Yeah. This is this is like what can be done with active   real time surveillance   versus   what information is out in the open forever on the blockchain. So it is a huge difference.   And, I mean, the article does go into a lot of detail and and and it's it's beautiful work,   but also it shouldn't discourage people   of using lightning. Right? But the only thing is it doesn't replace   the on chain privacy. It   can be built on top of that.   But, yeah, there's lots of details. That's good. So,  

[00:12:45] Unknown:

I mean,   I don't even know where to start. So I I   I,   we could go we could just scroll through the article, but I feel like that's boring way of doing it.   Why don't we why don't we start   from the basis of this this show this show this this   whatever this thing is, this show has   a mainstay of it has been actionable Bitcoin discussion, like, things that Bitcoiners today can use. Not   you know, we'll definitely go into the part of the post where you talk about the things that are happening in the future,   that we can look forward to, and that and that would be massive improvements here for privacy.   But what can Bitcoiners do today? I feel like a good way to start is, okay.  

I'm Anthony, or I'm Open Arms, or,   and and I want to use Lightning in a private way in a in the in a the most private way,   or a more private way or good enough private way? How do I go about that? What what should I be doing? What should my process be?  

[00:13:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. I I think, and for maybe the the listeners,   at home, you know, if you wanna open   very bottom, I kinda lay out the bullet points of, like, okay, if you skip the whole entire, like, 20 minute, 25 minute read, go to the very bottom. There's, you know, a bunch of different bullet points. I I like to separate it out from, like, senders versus receivers,   because senders, you know, have   tremendous privacy,   gains over receivers on the Lightning Network. Right. With with receivers, you have to create the invoice.   You have to basically let the sender know how to pay you. Right?  

And and by doing that, you send the invoice. You if you have private channels, you reveal your private channels to them.   And, you know, one of the unfortunate things about,   the Lightning Network that I learned is that the channel IDs   that make up channels, whether if it's public or private,   is actually derived from the UTXO information. So,   it's it's, you know, the first number is the block number. The second number is the transaction height where the transaction sits in the block. And then the last number is the actual output, the UTXO of that transaction. So every single channel has a UTXO that you lock up.   So whether if it's a private channel or public channel, if if you're if you're trying to hide your private channel UTXOs,   and then you create an invoice and give that to, you know, anyone or a sender or whatever. You're trusting them basically with the knowledge that you own or you could own that UTXO.  

The Lightning Network's interesting because you you can't actually   tell just by looking at a channel, you know, which peer in that channel owned it. If I have a channel with you, Matt,   and, you know, me and you, we know who funded it. You know, maybe it was me that initiated the channel, maybe it was you.   But to outsiders, they have no idea   which one actually opened the channel, except if they actually start going through chain analysis and start analyzing,   you know, change output addresses and and things like that to try to,   try to reveal that. So, like, if I open a private channel with you   and then I we close out that channel and I used to change or even if we didn't close out the channel, I used to change to open up a new public channel then, you know,   that's kind of, you know, revealing information.  



[00:16:07] Unknown:

But anyways, I I think, to Right from process of elimination. Right? Because there's there's only one party there that was a part of both channels.  

[00:16:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. We're we're just now starting to get, dual funded channels, so that changes the dynamic a little bit. You're you're you're never outsiders are never really sure.   Maybe both people funded the channel.   You know, you can have multiple inputs   into a channel and and you don't even know unless, you know, of course, again, you do chain analysis or with dual funded channels, an active attacker could try to initiate   a, you know, dual funded channel request with you and then back out midway, and they could learn your UTXO   through that process. So if   you opened a new channel yeah. Exactly. You you're basically snooping,   and trying to reveal get them to reveal their UTXO.  



[00:16:59] Unknown:

But Yeah. He But yeah.   Oh, go ahead, open ups. Yes. I just like to comment on this that,   it's already   like people getting focused of   just funding a channel with or like a nerd with 1 UTXO,   and it is   absolutely correct as you said that if you use   lightning for privacy and you use   you just have have one private channel,   and for that it makes sense to use only one UTXO.   But if you are using a public one,   a public channel and you are planning to   open other public channels, that it doesn't really matter if you   do reuse the change because it's public and tied to the node ID anyway.   So it's it's kind of a thing which you need to decide how would you how would you want to go about this.  

Do you only want to have like a pay paying node which you will only use   to pay invoices and, you know, close the channel when once emptied and just, you know, use one UTXO to fund that and throw it away afterwards. I mean, throw throw away the,   node ID afterwards and don't use it.   Or or you would just start out building up a lightning node and have one public channel and then have another one at at etcetera.  

[00:18:19] Unknown:

So   so so there's there's something interesting here, sort of breakdown.  

[00:18:25] Unknown:

So we're, like, diving into the weeds really quickly. Yeah. Alright.  

[00:18:26] Unknown:

The the there was a good point about the difference between sender and receiver.   So with receiver,   what people don't realize is how much information is in that in that invoice that you post.   And a perfect example was when the lightning torch is going around.   It was a very exciting time.   I got called out because I used   a BlueWallet, a custodial wallet, which is supposed to be against my ethos,   to receive   my   lightning torch.   And then I sent it out through my sovereign node, because I thought it was an important   task to send it out through a sovereign node, especially since I sent it to Jack Dorsey who also received on his sovereign node. And people called me out, and they said, Matt, we, you know, we caught you doing this, yada yada yada. And the reason I did it was because I didn't wanna docks   my my pub key   out to the whole world. And at that point, we didn't even have,   you know, Tor as the default or whatnot.  

So people were doxing their IP addresses, and they're just posting these invoices on Twitter. And, you know, Twitter is not gonna last as long as the Bitcoin ledger, but people should assume that anything they post on these public forums   is couvered up and stored by, you know, corporate surveillance companies and state surveillance companies and ad companies and all this different shit.   So they should kind of operate under that same assumption.   So so a a a key thing that I'd like to teach people is if you wanna learn what's in your invoice, go to lightningdecoder.com.   If you go to lightningdecoder   dotcom and, obviously, you know, you're kind of doxing your invoice to them if you put it in, but it could be an invoice that someone's paying you. It'll show you everything   that is in that invoice. It'll break it down for you.  

And, you know, a a big thing there is the   if if you have private channels, it'll show private channel routing hints in there,   because that's the only way a payer knows about the private channels. But more importantly,   it shows your public key. And if and you have that public key, you can go on these lightning explorers like 1ml.com   or Obaso,   and it'll it'll show   their public capacity, all their public channels,   and it'll show their IP address if they're not running through Tor. And if if you have that IP address, you're able to   determine   an imprecise location,   like, down to the town level, but a more sophisticated attacker might be able to figure out exactly who you are because most people's IP addresses are KYC'd.  

So   with all that said, the actionable information there is the the the number one thing you should do is run your node through Tor. Unfortunately, all these major node packages now basically just default to it.   So if you're running like a Raspberry Blitz,   or a Nodl, or a Ronin Dojo oh, this one has doesn't have Lending, or Umbrel,   or MyNode, it all runs through Tor automatically,   which I think is a big deal to say.  

[00:21:27] Unknown:

What else? Yeah. I I often use the analogy, or I used it before, that to have a clear net lightning node public   with public channels,   like a routing node running in your home   with your home public IP, it's like,   gluing your money out in the window.   And you can be surprised if people are, you know,   breaking it.  

[00:21:51] Unknown:

But then the problem there lies in the fact that we're kind of I I think we're gonna see like, we're seeing a bit of a bifurcation of the network   because you have these large public companies,   that are running these large routing nodes through Clearnet because they're completely fine,   you know, with running it on a VPS and and, you know,   you know, dot they they're they're completely KYC regulated companies anyway.   And they obviously have better uptime and connections than if you're running, like, a sovereign node through Tor. We saw when the Tor DDOS attacks were happening,   that, like, Tor nodes were going down left and right. Right?  

So there's a So, actually,  

[00:22:30] Unknown:

on that topic, it was interesting. My my Tor only lightning node was still,   routing payments through   through that downtime, that tore downtime. I think it only really affected,   a new connection. So, like, if I had restarted my node   exactly.   I would have had an issue there. But,   so starting a new connection, starting a new channel, that wasn't possible during the tour down times. But,   well, since I already had my, you know, raspy blitz just always running, it actually stayed up during that downtime. I was kinda surprised. When we also have to rely on exit nodes though to connect to the clear the greater Clearnet network.  

[00:23:07] Unknown:

So   Yeah. So there's, like, there's there was 2 attacks that were happening at the same time. Right? There's the exit nodes attack, and then there's there's actually a DDOS within the Onion network.  

[00:23:18] Unknown:

Yeah. And another thing with,   Tor nodes is is   IP nodes can't unless they're running both IP and Tor, which which you can do, IP nodes can't start a connection with you.   You have to be the initiator. So   even if you wanted,   one thing you could do, like if have a friend that's running their IP node, first of all, slap your friend and tell them to get a Tor only node.   But second of all, if they wanted to open channel with you, you can at least start a connection with them, a peer to peer connection with them, and then they can open the channel with you,   if if you're Tor only. But, yeah, another option  

[00:23:51] Unknown:

That's a feature, not a bug, Anthony. Because, like, when we when I switched the stacking sats node,   our our public TFTC node,   to Tor only, it, like, it just forced all the freaks because they weren't able I wouldn't let them connect unless they set up Tor on their node.  

[00:24:07] Unknown:

Nice.   Yeah. The there is a, like, a hack there if you are if you can run Tor even if you're not putting your LND behind it. Even if you have, like,   a a a Tor browser open, you can use that proxy to connect   to   the Tor network. So you could actually connect if you, you know, put a couple of minutes in it.   But, there is no point of that should go behind Tor anyway and should be but what is your Tor address   So the the peers who are behind Tor can connect directly without leaving the Tor network.  

[00:24:39] Unknown:

Let me ask you, Matt. When you switched over your your IP,   did you, like, start a new node, or did you just kinda just switch the IPs?  

[00:24:48] Unknown:

Well, so so I I did not start a new node because so this is the balancing act. Right? So you have a routing node.   Well, first, I made a joke that the route node was stolen,   which I but hilariously, like, you'd you'd think it was really obvious, but all the, like,   b cashers and all the haters, like, all, like, just believed it point blank and just, like, used it as FUD,   when I tweeted out that the node was stolen. But I said the node was stolen, and the the thief put it behind Tor.   So I still had the IP address attached to it. And still to this day, if you look up the public key, you can see that old IP address.   Then I had to trick my ISP into giving me a new IP address, so I had a non doxed IP address afterwards.  

And then I moved.   Yeah. But I I   I kept the I kept the same   I kept the same node because we had all of our channels open already. So when, like, you're when when you're talking about,   the potential of us going into a high fee environment,   you know, you're talking about a situation where   where you don't wanna hit the chain that often.   Right?   So, you know, it's really important   that that node I still have that node up, but it's really important that we have the freaks, that we have Sovereign Bitcoiners   setting up Sovereign routing nodes, small Sovereign routing nodes that they're running in hardware at at their own, you know, that they control, whether that's a home or office or something like that,   for the long term because you don't wanna you don't wanna have to hit the chain in the future.  

And, of course, we wanna build our reputation, you know, on the the BOS scores or whatever,   and we'll get into that. But   so so when you're doing that, you have to be thinking into you have to be thinking to the future. A mistake you make,   today   and you you end up revealing some if you send 1 so   so so let's jump into it. So so one of the the the main conclusions of the piece   that I think is really important is that the most of the freaks understand   why   why you don't wanna combine UTXOs. When you combine UTXOs, you're linking them on chain, common ownership.   When when you fund when you fund a node,   especially a long term routing node that's gonna have many channels, and that's gonna have many UTXOs funding it, you should assume that all those UTXOs are linked together. You should assume that they're consolidated   together.  

They're not actually consolidated together as much as a regular consolidation   transaction is, but you should just assume that's the case as far as an attacker goes. So if you fund your lightning node with 1 non coin join UTXO, that's k y c'd or something,   you basically have linked that node to your KYC information. Whoever has that KYC information could   presumably link that node to you.   So one of the most important things,   takeaways, I think, is if you're running one of these long term sovereign nodes is that every UTXO that you do fund it with should be   a post mix UTXO. They should be a CoinJoin UTXO, and I like to say that Lightning is a post mix tool.  

There's some people on   Twitter who think that Lightning replaces CoinJoin.   I think CoinJoin is, you know, is complimentary   to Lightning.  

[00:28:13] Unknown:

Yeah. And and one of the things that I've I've struggled with,   is exactly that point.   Saying, you know, it's it's a good, like, post mix tool,   that all your channel should be funded with mixed, UTXO's.   I kinda struggle with that because I, you know, like you   said,   consolidating   post mix UTXOs, I mean, there's a certain point where that's not that's not a good thing to do. Right? And, like, if you maybe if we're talking about a couple, you have enough of it and on set to get away with it.   But if you had   a bunch of channels,   funded with a bunch of different   post mix UTXOs, I mean, that   surely that degrades your end on set, like,   a lot. Right? You're   even if you're just opening private channels, one of the things in the article that I found out,   in the last few weeks was that   private channels are actually probable   probe able.  

Someone could probe your   they could send a bunch of spam payments through your node and attempt to find   private channels.   They just guess what a possible UTXO   could have been that funded a private channel, and they send that through your node. And if it, like, goes on to the next node, and that next node passes back an error because, you know, maybe it was,   you know, it was the wrong public key or something,   You've essentially   that attacker has essentially figured out, a private channel of yours and the UTXO going behind that private channel. So I so I guess, like, what I'm trying to make is, you know, I think there's a certain point, right, where if you're consolidating too many post UTXOs, it's not it's not a good thing. Right? But but, I mean, the takeaway is is  

[00:29:56] Unknown:

look. If if if the goal is to spend privately on lightning,   you really should just have 1 or 2 coinjoin UTXOs,   and then you open 1 or 2 large channels to 1 or 2 routing nodes.   And then you spend for a little bit, and then you get rid of it, and you start fresh again,   with a new node.   That is different though than if you're trying to run a long term routing node. And if you're trying to run a long term routing node,   you know, the   I I I   never I it it's it's very easy to make mistakes with the coin join.   There's, you know, it's there there   I am not saying it's perfect privacy, and it's, you know,   perfect privacy is something that,   mostly scammers will say,   but it is it is strictly an improvement over funding your node with anything else.  

The if you if you have if you have   post mix that's consolidating, you're hurting your own in onset, and you're hurting the in onset   of the other participants in your CoinJoin rounds,   but that can be alleviated if we have more CoinJoin usage   and if we have implementations   that attempt to mitigate post mix consolidation.   Because   we can't have implementations   that assume that every actor and participant in a mix is going to be great after the mix. Right? That like, that's a that's a bad assumption. The assumption should be the opposite,   and those implementations   need to take that into account and improve in that regard.  



[00:31:40] Unknown:

I would like to add here is that it probably helps if it's not from the same kind of coin joint round. So not not so you have some funds. You you   throw it through very poor use, the joy market tumbler, you know, even if you use savvy   and you found a node. I mean, first of all, it's best to decide   what do you want to do with it. So   1 or 2 channels, if it's just a spending node, or say you want to build a routing node well.   Okay. I might need, like, half a Bitcoin for that, right, in in the long term. Okay?   So you might just want to send,   you know, a a 50,000,000 sets post mix,   UTX on there. And and I'm not saying to open a a channel for half a Bitcoin straight, but you can keep using that because it's anyway, it will be tied together with the pop key. Basically, all the channels are UTXers,   and   they are advertised to belong to that same pop key. So it doesn't matter. Once you have put it in, it you can reuse it as many times as you like. And also,   when you have   sent so you have opened the channel, opened a couple of channels, and then you you can swap   them from lightning back to on chain, and then from those swapped,   UTX servers, which are now detached from the history again because they're belonging to, you know, the loop server of Lightning Labs, to the bot's exchange, to Bitfinex, whichever.  

Obviously,   no key account   on Bitfinex,   then   you can use them to   to open further channels   a bit. So   yeah.  

[00:33:22] Unknown:

I have I have to disagree just a little bit, on one one point. I think most of what you said was was great.   One aspect of it, where you have, you know, maybe you have one, you know, half of Bitcoin UTXO, and and you say, okay. We'll use that   in your public channel because you wanna be a routing node. You open a channel with that, and you use the change to open other channels. And I would have to say that wouldn't wouldn't be the best privacy because,   like I said earlier,   you nobody from the outside really knows which,   node   owned that UTXO.  

If I'm opening up a channel with Matt, it could have been either of us that that open up that channel with that UTXO.   The thing that gets you is if I open up a channel with Matt,   I have a point, like, half of Bitcoin UTXO,   open up a channel with him for with point 1, a 100 10,000,000 sats.   You should be using SATs or not Bitcoin. Thank you.   10,000,000 SATs, and and then I turn around with the 40,000,000,   sets and and change that I get back, and I open up channel with you, OpenNoms.   At that point, it's pretty clear that I owned both of those UTXOs.   The original 50,000,000 SATs.  

True. Because the change address goes back to my note. So I would say, like, if if   it it would suck, but, if you're if you're any change address after you open the channel, I I would say it would be best   if you were to throw it back in a mixer.   That's expensive.  

[00:34:50] Unknown:

No. It's expensive.   Yeah. I absolutely agree. I mean, I just   yeah. I can't   imagine   someone, even myself, you know, following the practice perfectly.   So,   you know, I would just   presume that whatever I found my note with it will be tied to, not me, but to the note.   Right? And and you're absolutely right if you if you follow this perfect practice that you only you don't create change or or you   deal with the change accordingly like like toxic change and you mix that as well every time,   so don't use it to open another channel. And also when you close the   channel then   that will be not used for anything either.  

You know, that's a challenge,   especially if there are no, you know, new features coming like dual funded channels, which are will be automatically manage your UTXOs.   Also, the anchor commitments on on l and d, which do need the UTXO to to kind of, bump the fee of of channel closers.   And they would need some UTX funds reserved there or some funds reserved there. It's it's, yeah, it's it's close to impossible in in, like, in a,  

[00:36:00] Unknown:

you know, with, like, imagine, like, 30, 40, 50, a 100 channels. It's it's close to impossible to to manage it perfectly. But, no, but that's the thing. We're talking about 2 different things. We're talking about 2 different things. Right? Because we have to separate it. If you're trying to be a spender Yep. Right, then you only should have, like, 2 or 3 channels max.   And you're trying to spend privately. Right? You you you pick a couple large routing nodes, ideally ones that are Tor only,   and you just you spend through those channels, and then you  

[00:36:30] Unknown:

you you create a new node. So in that in that kind of,   you know, educational   kind of, notes   report, like, node management report of mine, I've already, like, puts the 3 kind of major use cases of being of of   what to help people decide why they are starting a node. So is it to be just a spending node, basically a privacy tool and to be able to use Bitcoin more cheaply and   faster,   or you you they would want to do to make it out, you know, then then exactly those are very different use cases. And if you have only 2 channels and one with the UTX's funding, you can,   follow this perfect practice which has been described to to always keep your on chain of the on chain balance basically   just off in a mixer.  



[00:37:16] Unknown:

Yeah. But I I do think your other point that you made that was a 100 percent correct. Like, once you do have that channel open, and you do want on chain funds, or whether to send to a specific address on chain whether or or to open up more channels from that. Yeah. Absolutely use something like loop out, lightning laps loop out,   to spend from your channel,   and to get basically someone else's UTXO.   I I I would kinda lean on if you can, because you can,   try to actually get other people's UTXOs,   and not and not try to use   your your your own mixed UTXOs, if you can. Like, I under, you know,   while there's tools out there to acquire other people's UTXO's   that are not linked to your identity,   I kinda prefer that   to using your your own mixed,   UTXO's if you're going to be, like, a public routing node and and have all that associated. What you said about senders, you know, open 1 or 2 private channels, absolutely.  

Know, go ahead and do that with a few mixed UTXO's.   But but yeah. Try to take advantage of the fact that people are basically giving away UTXOs for   Lightning Sats, which, you know, do a pretty good job.   Lightning does a pretty good job of of hiding the sender for the most part.   So take advantage of of the people selling UTXOs for for Sats on on the Lightning Network.  

[00:38:43] Unknown:

Yep. Very good. I mean, but how would you go about that? So let's say so I fund my   I fund my node. I'm trying to create a long term routing node.   I fund it with, you know, a 50,000,000   sat transaction because I'm a polar. What like, okay. So I do the 50,000,000   sat transaction, which is a Yeah. I used them because that's the biggest pool at the Google. Right? I know. But, like, that that okay. So I fund it with $27,000.   And then you, like, make a couple large channel. Oh, I'm I'm only supposed to make one large channel with that, I guess.   Ideally.  

And then, if I wanna add more channels,   what do I do next?   From there,  

[00:39:29] Unknown:

you could use,   Lightning Labs loop out service, which basically, at this point, comes integrated   into an application called Terminal that they make, which comes integrated with,   RaspiBlitz   and Umbrel and and probably some others as well. So you can use Lightning Labs loop out.   What you end up doing is you end up paying what happens behind the scenes is is you end up paying 1 of Lightning Labs' invoices.   That they charge a fee, of course, but you pay an invoice of theirs and then you receive,   a UTXO   to your Lightning Nodes address, or you can send it to a different address if you want. But for the purpose of what Matt's trying to describe here where you get back you want more UTXOs to create more channels, use something like Lightning Labs, Loop Out,   spend some of your channel, you know, with your big 50,   million,   channel,   you know, loop loop after that. Yeah. And get some on chain funds open more channels with There's capacity limits on loop out. Correct?  

So it's funny.   You know, I had actually   just on sat on on Sunday,   I had done a loop out probably the largest loop out I've ever done. I didn't expect it to actually go through,   15,000,000 sets of loop out. Oh, wow. And it just it and and I got that for a few sets per, virtual bite,  

[00:40:48] Unknown:

because And then you used that UTXO to open a new channel.  

[00:40:52] Unknown:

Exactly.   And then at that point, I so   it's kinda funny.   Like I said, the the the the note I started getting serious with about 6 months ago,   it's it's I'm not following any of the things That's what I'm saying. To do in the article.   I'm learning though. I'm learning what I'm supposed to do, and now since going through this article, I know what to do on, like, a new note. But it's it's one of those things where, like, I I don't feel comfortable, like, the way I've been behaving with my lightning node over the last 6 months to to really share that out with people just because it has   a bunch of consolidated mixed UTXOs on there, which,   full disclaimer, I use,   Wasabi and then and to be honest, I don't even know how comfortable I am with that shitty one. So so I know. So it's important for people to realize that,  

[00:41:42] Unknown:

that, like, the an onset degradation from CoinJoin,   and and and so so so   on chain privacy is directly linked   to Lightning because you're funding with these UTXOs.   And the Anand set of coin join, especially in   Wasabi, because I just the implementation just isn't built   in a way that the Anand set is is   so the Anand set degrades very quickly if people do things with their UTXOs afterwards that are bad for privacy.   And the big thing, you know, the number one biggest thing is then they interact with KYC Services afterwards.   So the overwhelming majority of the non set is probably degraded through a combination of combining   UTXOs,   people combining after the fact.  

They're clicking the select all button,   or they're actually going, and they're they're sending it to a KYC service,   or they're,   buying something   through a third party processor,   someone like an OpenNode or a Bitrefill,   or even worse, a BitPay or a Coinbase merchant service.   If you   when you do that, obviously, you're linking that UTXO   to yourself, and as a result, you're degrading the onset of everyone else.   And it degrades over time,   and that ledgers forever. So if you have a UTXO sitting in there,   sitting in your lightning node,   your onset is degrading after the fact because of every other participant and what they're doing.  

And I know that's, like, a really headful of people to to to deal with.   It's not ideal,   but, it I think it's important that people shouldn't be discouraged necessarily from using these tools. I think some tools are better than others. I think I've been pretty clear on the show about it.   But,   they should it's it's   it's strictly better than not using those tools.   If you just take, like, a Cash App UTXO and you fund your fucking lightning node with it,   you're in a insanely worse position   than if, you know, your nonsense degrading because a bunch of different databases scattered around the world all have different information on your participants,   in that round. Right? This is like a this is a nuance   that is hard to grasp, but it's it's important I I think it's important that people don't get discouraged,   in that regard.  



[00:44:09] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. And   and that's why,   when   because the Lightning Network, especially if you wanna be, you know, reputational based node, and you wanna route, and you wanna keep channels open for as long as you can. It kinda goes against the fact that on, you know, some implementations, maybe it's all of them. I you know, this is where it kinda get fuzzy, but over time, your an onset is just gonna degrade.   And over time, if you keep that channel open and you just keep it open forever, your an onset is just degrading. Right?   So trying to trying to achieve that the best end on set you can, which, you know, maybe, you know, some people have   preferences on different implementations. Won't get into that.  

But, yeah, I I think and and that's why I say to try to, if you can, try to use   non mixed UTXOs because of this. Just So why?  

[00:44:58] Unknown:

Swapped, you mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah. After you use a mix UTXO. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Mix UTXO. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Try to use other people's UTXOs,  

[00:45:08] Unknown:

but   not not don't use   your original. Yeah. You're exactly right. If you get a UTXO from from Coinbase or whatever, definitely mix that. If but it's way better, but try to use other people's UTXOs.  

[00:45:21] Unknown:

So I think we're once again, we're getting into the weeds really hard. We're losing people a little bit. I think so on sender side, we we agree they're using a Tor only node. You're funding it with as few   transact UTXOs   as possible, all post mix UTXOs,   and you're cycling through the node. On the receiving side,   I mean, I think best practice is to use, like, Moon Wallet on your phone with the VPN   that cycles public keys,   you know, doesn't doesn't doesn't tie them all to the same pub key, and then you could pay out to your solver node, and then you're just kind of custodial privacy trusting   Moon Wallet.  

Would you would you agree on that premise, like, as just a simple actionable   thing people can do?  

[00:46:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. Moonwallet,   m u u n.com.   Oh, yeah. Thank you. It's probably one of the best for receiving just because of the fact that they do rotate.   I I'm not sure if they rotate both public and channel ID, or or just one or the other. It's at least up key, I believe.   But they do a good job rotating and having these sort of fake or virtual   channel IDs or or or or private nodes behind them. So, yes, I 100% agree. It's unfortunate that that's the only   implementation I know of where it it it goes through this healthy practice   of rot rotating and and shielding the the actual the real destination.  

But I believe that that will change with time. I believe there'll be more implementations,   c lightning plug ins or or l and d interceptors that that try to,  

[00:46:55] Unknown:

you know, rotate these public keys and channel IDs. Well, the other one I know is actually a good example of and and sitting on the screen on the lower left corner, the lnurlqr4,   by ln the lntx bot, which does the exact same thing.   But,   it doesn't rotate on every invoice. It only rotates   for every user. So, basically,   it's a custody of node, but you have your own pop key,   which is a virtual pop key with a virtual private channel connected to the n and t x bot node node.  

[00:47:32] Unknown:

Right. And you have, like, a custodial privacy relationship as well on both regardless.  

[00:47:37] Unknown:

Yes. Where you're, like, trusting the operator to protect your privacy? The the Yeah. I'm looking forward to do to be able to do this,   I mean, you know, not from the command line on on on my own node.   But   mind you, even in that case,   the last hope will be always my note. Right? So Right. That that gives it away.   Because you have a private channel,   which obviously can be anywhere, but then the last hop will be always the node which is creating that virtual pub key. The the other thing that's just nice about mobile wallets in general  

[00:48:13] Unknown:

is,   if you use even if you use if you use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a wallet of Satoshi   or a BlueWallet   or or you don't use a custodial wallet, you use, like, a Breeze or a Phoenix.   You can and   you can use them to receive a couple transactions,   then you empty it out to your own node, and then you wipe the app, and you start fresh again. And, you know, I I guess you use a VPN so that the service doesn't have your IP address.   I don't think any of them I I Phoenix has Tor built in now, I think.   Yes.  

[00:48:48] Unknown:

Yeah. The the cool thing about the process you described is, say for instance,   you're going from now that exchanges are implementing Lightning,   if if you're going from an exchange into your custodial Wallet of Satoshi,   Wallet of Satoshi doesn't know   where those funds came from. Now your your exchange knows it's going to Wallet of Satoshi.   Wallet of the Satoshi doesn't know where it came from. And now you go from Wald of Satoshi to your real node or or or, you know, your moon mod or whatever,   that at least does a good pretty good job of wiping   that history of okay. You're you're no longer associated with that exchange that you're withdrawing from.  



[00:49:28] Unknown:

And but now the problem here is that you just have so much complexity that you're just adding into your processes   that, like, most people are just gonna fuck something up along the way.   Right? And which is why, like, our goal should not be this even though this is, like, our practical advice today. Right? Yes. It's a code of hack. Yeah. It is a hack. It's, but but at least the Exchange doesn't know what your real note is, and they don't know  

[00:49:53] Unknown:

any of the UTXO's   funding your channels   or any of the you know, if you're an IP node.   They don't know what your IP address   or any of those things. So I think it it sucks, but, I mean, that's what I do. I always send a wall to the Toshiba and then send them real node.   I I don't think those steps are too complicated to think about, but you do have custodial risk,   not only on exchange.   If you're going from an exchange, but also you're trusting Wallace Satoshi to not run away, which has done a good job of not running away. But more importantly, I think the custodial nodes are all gonna get the custodial wallets are all gonna get whacked by the the regulators.  

[00:50:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Yep. This is why we don't have custodial's  

[00:50:35] Unknown:

wallets   in the first place.  

[00:50:40] Unknown:

Yep.   So, yes, the the other thing I was, like, you're gonna speak about on on c. Especially I think to   to try to well, this will be like an advanced use case, but if you are running like a large node and you're trying to do this do it professionally,   you might you probably want to manage the on chain funds in a separate wallet, not in the wallet of the lightning   implementation, let it be l and d or c lightning or or whichever you are using.   And,   I mean, I found,   like joint markets,   you know, be as complicated to use as it is,   although we try to make it easier,   But it is a very good fit to kind   of fund   lightning channels because you have a set of different UTXOs, not only,   you know, 15,500,000,   but you have you have all kinds of UTXOs if you are if you are running as a maker. And then you can when you close a channel, especially if you do it from the command line, there might be like RTLs on the hub, you know, these   graphical interfaces implementing that as well that when you   are closing the channel, you can give an external address where the   funds are going to directly   without you needing to wait for it to be confirmed in your on chain wallet and then sending in another step. So you could just,   you know,   close it into,   your drone market but even even your samurai wallet   address,   and then, you know,   go through the mix again.  

Right. And then when you're funding again, you you you can come from outside.   They are easier   the tools get are getting easier to be used. I mean, all,   implementations now now   support PSBT.   I think Zeus, even Caludis, you know, is working on   building external funding with PSBTs   into   the Zeus wallet.   So, you know, I look forward to that one. And, hopefully, it will be coming to some, you know, more graphical interface as well. Notorious guest of the of the podcast Absolutely. Evan Kaludis. No lightning, discussion should go without, you know, giving a shout out to him. You either have with all the lightning discussions on this on this show have either had open arms in it or or.  

[00:53:01] Unknown:

The   yeah.   Those are those are those are all very good points.   I I   I I   I it's important for people to realize that this stuff is all very early.   And really,   ultimately,   if you really care about privacy and you wanna be the most private user, like, you just should not be running a routing node yet.   But, unfortunately,   you know, I think it's a balancing act. And, I mean, if you're a real private user, you shouldn't be,   you know, having twice weekly live shows, but I'm doing that as well. And I I it's important, I think, that we have   sovereign Bitcoiners out there that are that are, you   know,   basically on the front lines because because we we need it and we need it if if   if if if when fees rise,   you know, we're gonna need these sovereign nodes. We can't have all the nodes be,   completely docs corporations   that are that are regulated.  



[00:54:06] Unknown:

Yeah. We need to need to build the roads.  

[00:54:09] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. Someone has to build the roads.  

[00:54:12] Unknown:

Luckily, the good thing is that we can always every node can, you know, spin up a new,   you know, if there's a popular path that's, you know, being really shitty, if there's a popular hub that's being really shitty, we can always go around them. We don't have to route through them anymore. We can close off our channels with them, etcetera. So it's almost it's it's a distributed it's not, like, completely decentralized   in the way that, like, it it there there are kinda hubs, but at any point in time, it's more distributed. At any point in time, anyone can build their own roads and have their own little payment network,   and things like that. So And we we we're not relying on them so much. It's a good decision. Note,  

[00:54:48] Unknown:

I think we should talk about this rings of fire initiative. Are you guys familiar with this? It's the the Telegram group?   The Telegram it's bigger than a group. I think it's a lifestyle.  

[00:55:01] Unknown:

I've heard of it. I'm a part of a telecom group where people do open channels  

[00:55:05] Unknown:

to each other. Talk about this?  

[00:55:09] Unknown:

Well, I mean, you started. Please go on.  

[00:55:12] Unknown:

So the ring of fire is,   this idea   that we have this Telegram group of   sovereign Bitcoiners and a couple spooks, most likely,   who are we're collaborating   via Telegram,   and we're creating these rings.   So, like, it's it's,   let's say, you wanna do a 5000000 sat ring. Everyone in the ring, you have 10 people, they each open a 5000000 sat channel,   to the next person in the ring. So it's it creates a liquidity ring between the 10 people,   and then,   you do a circular rebalance. So all of a sudden, everyone has if it's 5,000,000 ring, 5,000,000 sat ring, all of a sudden, everyone has 2 and a half 1000000 SATs inbound from both their partners and 2 and 2 2 and a half 1000000 SaaS outbound from both their partners.   And and you basically create this very robust,   liquidity network. And by having channel having rings of all different sizes   and having participants   being in multiple rings, then you have links between the rings themselves,   and you create,   basically, the opposite of the FUD narrative of lightning that a hub and spoke.  

Right? You're, like, creating a a more dynamic   kind of,   web of sovereign lightning nodes.  

[00:56:33] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's very good. Very good very good thing to do. It's always,   it's a recommendation. I mean,   probably,   especially in the beginning, you know, the it was a practice that people were kind of advertising that you can, if you open an   to open a channel to me and I open back one to you. Right?   And,   actually, it is much more beneficial if I open a channel to you than you open a channel to someone else   so the funds can flow and they are not just in a loop. And exactly what   happens in the string of fire on the edit kind of,   you know, fantastic thing that they can just do, build   build a route   with these,   bash scripts, basically. There are a couple of tools available where you just need to   basically put the private keys after each the   the   pop keys   after each other, and it does construct a route which you can put into   the lightning   command line, and then it will do the circular circular   rebalancing. So   it just, pays forward back to the originator node through this ring, and that's how it's it's getting balanced.  

Obviously, everyone needs to cooperate, needs to be online.   And then it also suggested order is, like,   kind of an ethical limit to have your fees reduced to a level   so you're not, taxing too much the one who is Yeah. I don't believe in the fees part.  

[00:58:03] Unknown:

That's just bullshit. That's never gonna last. That that  

[00:58:07] Unknown:

that that's not the adversarial environment that I'm that I've that I've been to be going. Yeah. It's it's a it needs coordination. Right? So, I mean, yeah, people should be online, so that's kind of a a you know, you you shouldn't open public channels if you're not   not planning to be online. But,   yeah, in terms of fees, yes. I mean, you know, you shouldn't come in and kind of trying to,   you know, text   or or people who are trying to kind of balance the channels through   when the agreement was that you're coming in for this. But otherwise Yeah. But I mean  

[00:58:39] Unknown:

but I mean, Lightning has it built in. Right? Like, if if if you raise your fees obnoxiously,   I mean, if if it's publicly connected to you, they'll shame you on Twitter. But if if it's not publicly connected to you, it's built into lightning, people just won't route through you. Right? They'll go other places. And the the the whole cool part of rings of fire to me   is that it means that any given channel that you have, you're not, you know, completely attached to. And this was an issue I had,   with the stacking stats node was because I saw   I had good intentions,   and very much like Anthony, like, I like to learn just and, like, open arms and, like, a lot of the freaks to be quite honest.  

I like to learn by doing,   and I did that reciprocal approach. If you open to me, I'll open to you. And what that did was, first of all, if you have multiple channels open with a part partner,   it hurts the routing. It it creates routing errors very easily. So it's better to just have one channel that's balanced.   And then second of all, it made us a sing it made my note a single point of failure.   And also my note was this little not a low   g, and it,   you know, this little rock 64,   and it just kept dying. Like, it it was just it was cutting out all the time because it was running through Tor only, and it had way too many channels.   And then just we just I just ended up in a situation where I had to clean it all up,   and it caused a huge fee burden for everyone involved, but especially me, and I lost a bunch of money on it.  

But the cool thing about Rings of Fire, I think,   is, like, you do it you do a couple of them. You do a couple rings,   and then all of a sudden, you're just you're, you know, you're connected to so many different liquidity routes. You're you're not you're not necessarily reliant on a single person who can raise their fees.   Well, I mean, that's another issue. Right? I could have just raised my fees at will,   which I didn't do, but I could have,   and and and rings of fire kind of reduces that   dependency. I but I do push back on this idea. Like, every time I join a rings of fire group, they're like, don't raise your fees. I'm like, guys, like, no one's gonna remember your   Telegram message saying not to raise your fees in, like, 4 years when this channel is still open. You just have to assume that people are gonna raise and lower their fees, and and routing will work as designed.  



[01:00:57] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's cool in terms of, like, keeping people accountable or at least trying to keep people accountable in the early days of of the Ring of Fire. Like you said, in 4 years, you know, who who knows? But I think another aspect that's really cool is   the idea of,   cooperating with the peers to to to build a more resilient network.   Because right now, you know, how does   a new node coming online right now,   Where does it   who does it connect to? I mean, like, okay. Well, I'll look on 1 ML and I'll go to I'll well, everyone's connected to the async. It's number 1 node. Let me connect there.   And we self I think it's something that human nature does anyways, but we self centralized in a way,   and we create these single points of failure naturally. But if we have a sort of coordinator to help build it, I almost look at the ring of fire like like a like a, I don't know, like a carbon fiber net that is just super strong and we're all building on each other and we're all self organizing to have the best routes. Not everyone is connecting to Fold just because they like Fold and they're doing really cool stuff.  

You have some people connect to the phone and maybe you coordinate and say, okay. Cool. We'll have some connections out to,   you know, async or or other places. So I I'd love the idea of of the Lightning Network kinda trying to self organize in a way and not just trend towards,   centralization   and and hub and spokes. I mean, I  

[01:02:23] Unknown:

think look. Like, there's   one of the cool things about Bitcoin   is to me, it's it's   so so with Lightning, there's a bit of a tragedy of a of the commons   concern.   And   and that's a trade off that was made to basically get us faster,   cheaper transactions.   And that's fine. It's more centralized   than you know, unless censorship resistant   than on chain because it makes those different trade offs because it sits on top of the Bitcoin main chain. But the Bitcoin main chain is super cool to me because it's almost reverse tragedy to the commons.   It's like,   you've,   like, optimist of the the commons. Like, it's good for the it's like every if you're greedy, it's good for everyone because transaction fees are just designed in a way,   that that means that you you can't, you know,   like like, by acting greedy,   you're you're a good participant in the network. But with Lightning,   the natural progression is the cheapest thing an individual can do, the most private thing an individual can do   is simply   open you know, I have a Tor only lightning node and open 1 or 2 channels to the most connected nodes, period, with the lowest fees, period.  

And, you know, that that could be,   that that could be like an async or a regulated company, or that could be   who's that guy who has, I got I just got a loss who has, like, 40% of the network.   And a l n big? L n big. L n big. It could be like an l n big, and that is the cheapest and most private way that you can interact with lightning.   So we kind of need   this push. We need these these these sovereign Bitcoiners that are willing to go out of their way, risk a little bit more of their privacy,   risk a little bit,   more money   at stake   to try and build this network because they understand that, you know, low time preference long term, it's better for all of us   if if we have a more robust lightning network. Right?  



[01:04:34] Unknown:

Exactly.   It is so there've been a couple of questions about, like, how many people are in a ring. It's up up to 10 as I as I,   gathered so far. And also   about a fee thing. So it it   is just supposed to be reused for the time of that circular labyrinth, that that one time circular rebalance.   I mean, after that, you know, obviously, no one could   Oh, okay. That makes sense. To ask you. Right? Because just just to shift the liquidity   because in that case, you know, if there are t 10 people, there is there are 10 channels to pay through. And if, you know, everyone takes their, you know, 0.1%   or whatever, then it can get to a significant level.  

And so the other thing is that again, there is a trade off of like   I think the these this exists certainly in the Telegram and then also net Reddit. I mean, both are like in in a kind of KYC light chat apps. Right? So,   the best thing is I mean, we spoke about how bad it is to kind of tie your   node to   your phone number basically.   So you might want to set up   just a an kind of inon   identity,   or like pseudonym to be exact and just, you know, open up like   you know, tails and register a a burner number and go on Telegram and and have these channels and then leave that as a point of contact for the note.   And just,   maybe   if you register 1 ml, put a put an email address on there. So if people have trouble   and you want to be a good player   and you might need it yourself,   they can contact you. Right?  

Because there could be technical issues still   or people are doing, you know, making mistakes or losing their general states completely and and stuff like that.   When, you know, they would it would be it is really good to have   a point of contact like that. And   on the other hand, from your point of view, it is really good to know or to be able to contact your peers. So,   I mean, you know, it's okay for example with Async, you probably could contact them, but if you go to   like a a large   node who is completely,   you know, nameless and there is no   way to to go to them if you have a problem or funds locked up most importantly,   then,   you know, it it it's it's not the best.  



[01:07:05] Unknown:

One of the things that I think is pretty cool though on on that specific topic is that I,   I've tried this before. I haven't I haven't gotten a response yet, but I've used,   Thunderhub to try to message,   other nodes. We have keysend. Other nodes on the network. Yeah. Through keysend,   because that's all you really need. You you just need their node identity.   You don't need an email address or anything to technically talk to them   through Keysight, but I never gotten a response back from them. But that's what the the the more mainstream,  

[01:07:37] Unknown:

even though it's an incredibly niche product, but,   we already have over 200 freaks in the tribe, is Sphinx, which uses Keysend to communicate.  

[01:07:47] Unknown:

Well, but I I have I have a note set up just for that. It has, like, one channel and it's, like, following the best practices I I was describing here. But that's the problem again. Right? It's an exact social media account. Right? So I cannot,  

[01:07:59] Unknown:

I cannot Right. So do I tie right into it. I have a dedicated sphinx node.  

[01:08:05] Unknown:

OpenNoms.   I saw I mentioned in the article, but I saw there is a ticket to possibly add a second node to RaspiBlitz. Is is that something that you're actively working on? Where where is that at?  

[01:08:16] Unknown:

Well, I mean, at the moment, I'm working on adding c lightning. Right? So and that would that would be that would   so it would be possible to   run alongside.   And also, I just   didn't make it worse today that you can even parallel   on my Raspberry Pi on with 4 gigabytes of RAM, I was able to run   Bitcoin mainnet, test that, and sign that at the same time and then have, like, LND and and c lightning on those. So so, you know, it's, technically, it's it's   time impossible.   I mean, the UX part is tricky because then how do you,   you know, how do you know which node you are interacting with?  

It works for me in the command line, and it does work now, you know, fairly   well. I've done a, like, a little menu in with that script, which is, in that   issue, in addressable issue.   So   you can   do it   but then obviously you need to look after it. Right? So   because there will be the channel backups you need to save, there will be   the passwords, which would be different. So there's a couple of things you you would need to look after. So it's kind of I left this   as a working   advanced option.   So it's basically it's there. If you want to use it, you can try it. But,   yeah, I I I don't see it I mean   having a menu. Right? And, and, or having, like, a further implementation to the menu system and, like, having a graphical interface and things like that. The clean UX way to handle it, right, is is to just  

[01:09:54] Unknown:

run multiple separate nodes.  

[01:09:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I have the 2 rabbit plates.   Exactly.   And, also, yeah, they're a question of torque circuits and stuff like that, but, also,   that's another thing. If you have, like, a separate   nodes but in the same physical place, you know, the   Internet cuts out, and they are done at the same time. And they're Or if, like, Texas loses power, and and all the Texas nodes all go offline at the same time. Yeah. Speaking about, like, your house. Right? Not Texas.  

[01:10:26] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's very obvious then. But But I was thinking about this the other day, like, if a hurricane hits,   you know, like, a hurricane hits Florida or something,  

[01:10:35] Unknown:

It should be able to migrate.  

[01:10:37] Unknown:

Right. But all the Florida nodes are gonna go down around the same time, or, like, if a if a region loses power, like, all those nodes are gonna go down at the same time even if you're going through Tor and you're protecting your IP address.  

[01:10:47] Unknown:

Yeah. The the yeah. They will be dogs, but they would have a, you know,   still a good anonymity set with a large area like that.  

[01:10:56] Unknown:

That's a good point. Never consider that. Yeah. And my my note definitely went down during those Texas,   Texas things. I had a UPS,   power supply, but it it   it didn't last long enough through all the rolling blackouts. So, eventually, my Raspi Blitch just   turned off, and and it shut off terribly, and I actually had to restore it, which is another thing I love about Raspi Blitts is that,   every time you upgrade, you basically wipe the device. Right? So it kind of,   you know, teaches you, or at least it it has this, like, built in process where you can feel comfortable knowing you can wipe the device. And as long as you still have that hard drive, you're you're good to go. And as long as you have those even if something happened to that, those static backup channels   are are key. So, I had like, those Texas storms built a lot of confidence   in me for, harassment because of that.  



[01:11:48] Unknown:

Shout out shout out to, tjp3   in the comments.   He encapsulated what I was going for for on chain Bitcoin is the prosperity of the commons. It feels like a reverse tragedy of the commons.   But, yeah, I was thinking about the power outages. Like, that's,   I mean, this is the thing about, like, privacy and adversarial thinking and stuff. Like, if you go down far enough down the rabbit hole, you end up in, like, a really depressed   area where you just you you just you just think we're fucked.   And I think it's important for people to, you know, have good vibes on Bitcoin Tuesday. Like, we have to be optimistic here.   It'll be a fight, and   and sovereignty is never gonna be easy, and personal responsibility is never gonna be easy. But someone has to do it, and I want that to be us. I don't want that to be someone else. I I think we're the ones who have to do it. So here we are. We need to build the roads, man.  

We need to build the roads.   Dude, I just wanna say to both of you guys, just it's it's it's really fucking awesome that episode 21, Cielo Dispatch 21 is with 2 ride or die freaks,   who you guys have both been here from the beginning, for civil dispatch.   And it it it really I I know it started it started last year. It's it's been   it's it's been 2 years now. No.   It's just it's it it started as just   something that, you know, like,   I I I I was either gonna disappear or I was gonna start something new,   and I decided to lean in. And you guys have been there the whole way, so it's just it's just great that you guys are both  

[01:13:28] Unknown:

on here for for episode 21. So cheers to that. Well, props to you, man. You know, it's a fantastic initiative.  

[01:13:35] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I love it. The best part of the week, honestly. So, it's an honor to be be on here and and talking about privacy.  

[01:13:42] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. Hell yeah.   So I have a question.   Key send versus l n URL.   So the dispatch is a perfect example.   It's a show that has no sponsors except for the audience. The audience is the sponsor of the show.   It could work with either key send or lnurl.   Why do I have lnurl in my bottom left hand corner instead of a key send URL?   A key send QR code.  

[01:14:14] Unknown:

But it would be just your pop key then.  

[01:14:17] Unknown:

Yeah.   Should we talk about let's talk about the trade offs, Open Arms.  

[01:14:23] Unknown:

The trade offs for lnurl?  

[01:14:26] Unknown:

Well Yep. It has Why?  

[01:14:28] Unknown:

Is there any reason to use key send when ln URL exists is my question. So ln URL needs a server side. Right? So it does what what what it does, it's it's it is as in in the name, it is a URL, which is like an Internet address.   So it pings a server when you connect to it to   ask for the invoice which you then pay. It's that's like all in Europe pay in a very very simplified way.   So   it's and that needs to be a publicly accessible endpoint.   So, you know, not everyone has that and you it cannot be just store only.   And it's a trade off for usability because, yeah, it's just very easy to kind of, you know, click and click and pay,   versus   with key sent. I mean,   that is something   again, then you are   sharing your pop key. So that's that is,   I mean, you're sharing the pop key in the invoice which allows you to provide anyway   if you are using your own node,   but   so the information is quite similar with with with a with a pop key as well. I mean, you could put it up and see, you know, how many people would key send to it. I think it's just the the support is not that not that out of the box. So Alenura has better better support because,   you know, people work on it more, and it's it's a quite fun protocol,   especially things like Eleanor of Oath, then you can, you know, verify   your verify an identity without exposing the pub key in that case.  

So there are a couple of   other parts of this   Ellen Europe protocol which are which are quite interesting. But I think in the long term, they will probably be,   replaced by things   within the lightning protocol.  

[01:16:18] Unknown:

Yeah. The the cool thing about Allen URL, I think you described it earlier, openNoms,   with,   Allen TX bot, they actually   do try to shield   your the destination pub key a little bit by by doing that kind of fake fake private channel, fake public key, at least per user.   The the thing with that is,   I I kinda talked about it a little bit, eventually   repeating that process, you know. If if if there's always this one   actually, I won't dive into the details there because it it just gets way too nuanced. I I I think it's a it's a good thing that,   lnurlpro   that can try to shield,   your,   your actual destination,   your actual node,   by using the fake private routes, basically. So with keysend, you can't do that because it, like you said, does have that public key  

[01:17:12] Unknown:

requirement. That's a yes. That's yeah. There you'd expose the destination, whereas in the   LN Europe pay protocol, you can just ask for a route to pay. So like a blinded route even, you know, which is a thing from the future, but then you would just get, like, onion   packages, which you wouldn't see where they are going. You just, you know, put it put them into a node, and it gets paid.  

[01:17:36] Unknown:

My my I guess my point is, like   right? Like, the dream is for civil dispatch to be able to receive fully sovereign donations. Right? Like, I'm,   Fiat Jaffe, who is the maintainer of l n transaction bot,   is a fucking legend. Shut up. Yeah.   And I I hope to have him on on dispatch soon.   I feel like he doesn't get enough credit,   but here I am. Right? I'm choosing to use   I'm choosing to use a custodial wallet because I think it's better I think it's better for the privacy of myself and the privacy of the audience.   But ideally, right, like,   it it'd be nice if if there was an easy way for me to accept   support for this show in a more sovereign way.  



[01:18:25] Unknown:

So so you can do it. As as I said, it just needs to have that public server endpoint, which is, you know, would be a problem for you to set it up so it's much easier to set it up. On that?   Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a trade off. So you even you can be a bit   you know, you have the place to ask for   a more private   way of paying paying, but you need to have that place. Whereas if you just expose   a node with a private, a public key, which has, like, a public channel, which is already, you know,   spread in the gossip in the network graph so people know about it or the wallets know about it, then, you know, it could be paid   the same way. There is no technical difficulty   technical limitation to that. But it obviously couldn't have, like, route hints, so it couldn't have, like, private channels and things like that because it would be only just a destination exposed.  



[01:19:20] Unknown:

So I I think this is, like, a good point to jump into   fiatjaf's   newest,   project.   I don't know if either of you are   very familiar with it. Immorden, I think, is the pronunciation.   Yes.  

[01:19:34] Unknown:

And and the Funded by Ellen Big.  

[01:19:37] Unknown:

Funded by Ellen Big. Funded by our favorite spook.   The   I tease, but don't at the same time. What?  

[01:19:45] Unknown:

It's a good initiative.   You know, I think it's it's a it's a good thing he does fund it.  

[01:19:51] Unknown:

I had I'm not gonna I'm not gonna call him out by name, but   I had a good friend reach out and goes,   Alan Big can't be a spooked because,   he funded a more than and I said, yeah. Well, the NSA funds tours, so here we are.  

[01:20:08] Unknown:

Yeah. The NSA guarantees that that,   tour is there. So, you know, they need the anonymity set of us ours as well. So  

[01:20:16] Unknown:

so Immortan is this idea, he's creating a lightning implementation that's designed for private light nodes.   Is that a good summary?  

[01:20:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so.   I I don't know enough about, like, the the fine grain details of   it. But one of the I I I think I I've heard about a few initiatives kinda like this. I forgot what the other one, was called. But this idea of being able to sort of have, like,   of nodes where inside the cluster, you kind of get this anemic anonymity,   kind of so when I, you know, I I could be describing this specific project,   incorrectly.   But I think I'd love the idea of of, like, you know, me as a sender, know, I'm sending into this cluster of nodes, and then I don't know what happens afterwards. It it goes in here. I don't know what node actually receives the funds in the end.   I I believe that maybe one of the the goals of a Mortem. I could be wrong, but I I think more concepts like that will come out.  



[01:21:17] Unknown:

I think Electrum is can be interesting as well. I mean, obviously, they have, like, a smaller team and they started a bit later than the the other implementations, but, you know, their focus is is very much,   related to privacy as well, and they have, I mean, they have swaps   done,   So noncustal   noncustorial,   submarine swaps implemented as well as, like, you know, they use the software what's Exchange is using because it's open source,   with a different, backend.   And also   they have, like, rendezvous   and trampoline routing.   Trampoline is working already,   which is again can be a a trade off but also an improvement.  

So, yeah, the you know, there are a lot of people working on this, and I expect,   you know, large   improvements in terms of privacy as well in the in the even next couple of months, but certainly within the years.  

[01:22:15] Unknown:

I didn't even realize that Morden isn't,   it's not VHF. Right?  

[01:22:23] Unknown:

I think,   you know, he he was   he might be involved, but he is certainly,   advertising it.   But it's the BLW   people.   So there is this Bitcoin lightning wallet which has been one of the first and is based on the on   the   eclar   code base.   And,   yes, this yes.   I think. Yeah. The guy who do who is doing it is probably,   yeah. Anton Kumar Gorodetsky.  

[01:22:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Is that just a is that a fiat Jafnim, or is that a different person?  

[01:23:00] Unknown:

No. I mean, on Twitter, he has his own. I think on on online dreaming, I think that's his that's his such a boss. I just assume he has, like, 4 very productive NIMs.  

[01:23:11] Unknown:

Anything possible, but I All my NIMs are way less productive.  

[01:23:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Online dreaming is a is a Twitter handle.   It's a it's a funny account,   and I think, you know, they are from different kind of   at least if this fear, Jeff, you know, is pretending to be in from different parts of the world, so doing very well.  

[01:23:31] Unknown:

So,   we're an hour and a half in here. I think this conversation has been fantastic so far. Freaks,   I feel like I don't need to remind you since you are the ride or die. Feel free to just post questions into the live chat, whether that's on Twitch,   Twitter, or YouTube.   I guess, 6102 has just given up on the KYC, so he just messaged me on Keybase while we're going.   He wants us to know   that,   Moon requires Google Play services,   which I just take for granted because I've been using Calix OS now, so Micro g also works with it. Yes. But, obviously, we prefer for apps don't require Google Play services,   even if we can use a open source alternative.  

It's better just not to have that   dependency period.   So, I mean, I   I wanna jump back into privacy, but before we do, I think   a really cool,   really cool I mean, it's,   cool might be the wrong word. A really interesting case study that's happening   live right now in terms of   private,   quote, unquote,   cryptocurrency transactions   is we have the largest ransomware attack ever,   happening   live. As it as this show is airing, it it has been happening for 2 days now,   and that's the capital pipeline.   The largest pipeline in America,   for gas   and other petroleum products is is currently being ransomware by the Dark Side Ransomware Group.  

And   we are seeing gas shortages across the East Coast   as far down as Louisiana   and as far up as   the northeast.   And what what's really interesting here let let me show you just to the to the people watching the stream. This is this is the capital pipeline. So,   it is literally just going through all the most,   I mean, the East Coast is the most dense area of the United States. So as you can see, it just goes down from goes from Texas all the way up to New York,   and the whole pipeline is shut down right now   because   these fucking idiots,   attach critical infrastructure to the Internet, and they got ransomware.  

What's interesting here is that there's been many articles written on it.   None of them mentioned Bitcoin specifically,   and they they if you control f, then none of them say Bitcoin in them. All the reputable articles out of Bloomberg and whatnot,   Capital Pipeline's own releases, no one mentions Bitcoin specifically.   And if you if you look at previous DarkSide ransomware,   they actually,   usually request both Monero and Bitcoin.   In the past, they've offered   a discount of 10% if you pay Monero, but the most recent one,   they offered a 20% discount if you pay Monero.  

There's a possibility here that this ransomware   is not asking for Bitcoin at all. They might just be asking for Monero. But regardless,   let's say that it's like the this past one that I have up on the screen right now, and they're asking for a 20%,   premium if you pay with Bitcoin.   What like, does that tell us anything? Is there something we should take from this? Is this, you know   I mean, these ransomware guys are basically saying that it's gonna cost you 20% more to have private transactions on Bitcoin. Right?  

[01:27:18] Unknown:

Well well, why don't they just accept lightning?  

[01:27:22] Unknown:

Good luck. Yeah. With only one mixed output, and they're gonna have to loop out.  

[01:27:30] Unknown:

No. I I think I I assume just because that 20% is just gonna go into a shit ton of mixing.  

[01:27:38] Unknown:

Yeah. And then probably into Monero.  

[01:27:41] Unknown:

Yeah. That yeah. They could yeah.   No. That's that's crazy, this this whole situation. I mean, at a certain point, like,  

[01:27:50] Unknown:

30,000,000, maybe it's more, maybe it's less for this scenario. Dude, it's gotta be way more. Right? Like, the the last one was 30,000,000. This is the largest pipeline in in the fucking country.   Like, it's the what do you think the ransomware request is? It's probably fucking a shit ton.  

[01:28:08] Unknown:

I I think in some scenarios,   the the attackers   their virus may not even know who they're, like, targeting. It could just be some   some guy was watching a YouTube stream and ended up downloading it   and infecting the whole entire pipeline.   So I it it it could be a situation where the attackers don't even know that it was this big group that I mean, but the counterargument  

[01:28:34] Unknown:

to me is if it was cheap,   I think, like, the largest pipeline in America would be back   would be turned back on. They would just fucking pay the fucking thing. Right?  

[01:28:46] Unknown:

Yeah.   And and, you know, arguably,   chain analytics companies could offer support and be, like, just just pay the Bitcoin, and we'll try to track them.   You know, but I I do agree, like, they they,   at a certain point, just just pay the damn thing. They probably don't wanna set a terrible precedent though.  

[01:29:08] Unknown:

So we have we have some person in the comments asking what was the 30,000,000 for. This was from Krebs on security,   and it's it's based on the   the the the other largest ransomware attack that they're aware of.   They requested $30,000,000   whether that was through Monero or Bitcoin, and it actually got negotiated down to 11,000,000. So there's a really good article by Krebs,   which I will post in the chat.   But if you go to Krebs on security.com,   it'll be the most recent blog post.   And and he he basically analyzes what we know from that previous ransomware. One thing that's interesting is   I'm pretty sure Darkseid is   on the sanctions list, so I wonder if   they're not legally allowed to pay the ransom regardless of what the price is.  



[01:30:03] Unknown:

That's a good point.  

[01:30:06] Unknown:

It's very interesting watching this all play out. I mean, I I,   my cohost on rabbit hole recap, and we're gonna talk about this on Thursday,   had a bent where he said he said maybe it's a false flag, but I I, you know, I think our infrastructure   is so fucking   vulnerable   that   it doesn't really surprise me that we have a whole pipeline down because of this shit. Like, it it   doesn't my my my my immediate thought is incompetence, not not false flag here.  

[01:30:41] Unknown:

Yeah. What was the big one from last year? Was wasn't there another huge one that it was, like, core infrastructure   that got hacked  

[01:30:51] Unknown:

in the US at least. We had, like, that water plant that they just caught it at, like, the last second. It wasn't even ransomware. They were just gonna, like, poison the water or something.   Wasn't that what it was? Better. At least it wasn't ransomware.   I I don't know. This whole thing is, like, pretty crazy just watching it unfold,   and it's just interesting how you don't hear any we don't know any of the specifics. They want they they refuse to tell us any of the specifics.  

[01:31:19] Unknown:

Yeah. The other question is that   how   reasonable it is to kind of be able to change the infrastructure.   So what do they need?   Is the data that valuable? That's the question.   I mean, the time is probably.   But, you know, the longer they go on, the worse it gets. There's gas stations without any gas right now,  

[01:31:42] Unknown:

like, across the East Coast, and it's just gonna get worse. And,   like, how how high could the ransom be? Like, just fucking I guess, you just you should just pay it. Like, this this is one of the interesting things about these ransomware groups is that they're actually   they, like, work on, like, a web of trust system. Like, they they almost always will give you the decryption key   Yeah. If you pay because if they don't, they know they're not gonna get from the next person.  

[01:32:08] Unknown:

I don't know. It's just a really interesting topic. Yeah? Do you think it's a I mean, you mentioned that no articles are mentioned in Bitcoin. I mean, do you do you think it's even if Bitcoin is Bitcoin or Monero or whatever is the   the means of, payment that they want, do you do you think it's maybe a good thing in this scenario that that that part isn't getting coverage,   not just on from the price perspective, but,   I mean, that's just more FUD that we have to try to tackle or or, you know, maybe it's not.   So I I don't know. What's your opinion on the fact that if it is Bitcoin that they're trying to accept,  

[01:32:44] Unknown:

that it's not being publicized? Well, so that's what's weird to me. Right? Is because usually mainstream media,   like, will take any chance any chance they get to throw some FUD our way.   So I feel like if they could FUD Bitcoin, they would FUD Bitcoin on it.   And   one interesting aspect of Monero   is and   and and this is just, like, the current state of Bitcoin Twitter and probably also just because I have   such a large platform on Bitcoin Twitter, is that   I wanted to talk about this on Twitter yesterday, but I just didn't really feel comfortable about it because I just knew I was gonna get attacked from, like, every fucking side if I just even fucking mentioned it. So that's why I waited for an hour and a half into this show because   most of those people will not make it to this point.  

The   my thought is that this ransom is just completely in Monero,   and   one of the interesting things is the US Marshals Service who has been auctioning off Bitcoin this whole time,   they refused they will not auction off Monero.   And the reason is because is is because   basically, it's because they think, basically,   Monero usage is is inherently criminal. It's only for privacy focused users.   So allowing Monero back into the system is like,   seizing cocaine and then   auctioning it off.   So they won't auction off Monero, and I could see them being extra strict about paying ransoms in Monero versus Bitcoin,   for the exact reason you said. Because if they pay Bitcoin, then they can have a whole team there trying to trace it. Even though I don't think   I think if you're a sophisticated actor, you can use Bitcoin privately relatively   not relatively easily, but easy enough. You know, it'll cost them   less than 20%, but it'll cost them a little bit extra money, but they can use it in a in a relatively private way,   if they're sophisticated and they're patient.  

I think maybe   these large corporations would be more susceptible to paying it in Bitcoin rather than Monero, and maybe that's why   maybe that's why we haven't heard anything. That that, like, seems reasonable to me. Or maybe the premium that they're asking is, like, 30 or 40% this time, and they still offer the option.  

[01:35:04] Unknown:

I I did not know that about the Marshalls not,   not selling not auctioning off   Monero. Do do they just do they do they actually burn it then? Or They're hobble. I guess we wouldn't know. And if, yeah, they're if they're hobblers, then then They keep keep it for customs.  

[01:35:19] Unknown:

I assume they use it for all their, like, illegal activities.  

[01:35:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, let's dip into that supply and save the East Coast.  

[01:35:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I I don't know. I this is gonna be an interesting thing to watch play out. I'm I'm curious when we see more information.   We will be talking about it on rabbit hole recap. We will continue to talk about it on sale and dispatch as well.  

[01:35:46] Unknown:

I'm curious if if can you spin this just for the sake of, you know, argument? Is,   can you spin this the other way? Like, that obviously,   it is not Bitcoin   making this possible. It's the digital infrastructure and their bad   OPSEC is which is making the attack possible.   So   actually   having a private way to pay it   or I mean, I'm talk talk about just having Bitcoin   available, but even, you know, speaking   for Monero in that sense as well, that is small private   that,   it makes it possible to pay it.   Yeah. I mean, I think Is it is it not a good thing then? I I It's available as a tool. Right? Yeah. I mean, I think the law the adversity attack itself is terrible. You know what I'm saying?  

[01:36:32] Unknown:

The logical   the logical,   understanding is that good money is is useful for criminals as well.   Right? No one no one says   if if if you get kidnapped and you have to pay the the ransom in   in US dollars and a duffle bag, no one's like US dollars caused this kidnapping. Right?   These are if anything,   you know, the ransomware   attacks that we've seen because because because you actually have a money that you can you can pay them off in, historically, it's been Bitcoin,   make our systems more secure. Right? Because they're exposing vulnerabilities that were already there. They just couldn't be monetized in the past, so they were secretly,   being used. Right? Like, they were they were secretly being used by enemy governments and enemy corporations   and and malicious individuals altogether.  

And because there's there's an incentive to monetize those attacks,   we're being made aware of how vulnerable our infrastructure really is.   All that said, Open Arms,   I don't really see the boomers in government,   going that logical route. I I do see this being used as   a FUD fuel.   Yeah. I would push back though if we do find out   if we do find out that this ransomware was Monero only,   there's gonna be a shit ton of compliance bros that come out, and they're like, Bitcoin is is better because we it doesn't support these ransomware things or whatever.   And I I I think it's a canary in the coal mine type of situation.  

I think we should be worried if   the most sophisticated,   wealthiest,   actors in   in private digital transactions   are moving to a different currency   is something that we should all be aware of, and we should be actively trying to improve   Bitcoin in that respect.  

[01:38:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.  

[01:38:27] Unknown:

I 100% agree with that. The the I almost kinda take that approach with my own home network,   Because I have my raspy blitz on my own network.   If if funds go missing on there, I know I've been owned.   So it kinda puts a price on it puts the price on data. I would I would rather   know that someone was on my network and took my funds than than know that someone's on my network listening, and I don't even know   they exist, and they just watch. And and exactly, like, what if, you know, today, we're putting a price on we're putting a price on that virus. And and if they are trying to accept Bitcoin, Monero, whatever, it's ransomware, so they're trying to accept something. We're putting a price on that and trying to incentivize  

[01:39:12] Unknown:

Well, they're doubling out of the way.  

[01:39:14] Unknown:

Yeah. We're trying to incentivize that instead of the alternative,   which is another government, like, what, blowing up a pipeline if they could.   You know. So I I think it's better that it's monetized instead of   for extremely malicious purposes.  

[01:39:29] Unknown:

One of the coolest things I read about when I was first becoming a Bitcoiner was there's this one guy on Reddit,   Reddit. Never used Reddit anymore, but there's this one nim on Reddit who just insisted that every time you spin up a new cloud server,   you should just put a hot wallet on it of, like, at least $10,000   because you're just, like, you're just putting a nice low floor there that if if just the casual   attacker just comes through, they'll probably just take your take your money. And and since then,   on all my computers, you know, I I I keep a I keep a little bit of a hot wallet there,   just to be like a nice little canary in the coal mine. Like, if if you come in, you're gonna have to have a low time preference if you wanna actively surveil me because you're just gonna have this thing sitting here. Is it is it the wallet dot dot?  

Is the wall well, yeah. Just you just got, like, a nice little wallet dot dot. If you wanna keylog me or whatever, just the money is sitting there. And I was like, you're just gonna have to fucking either not take it or,   take it and let me know that you that you've compromised the system. I think it's kind of a cool little,   aspect.  

[01:40:34] Unknown:

Oh, okay. Sure, Indesh. Okay. Hopefully, no one goes after your laptop now. You know?  

[01:40:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm already a target, so I don't think they really added much. I if anything, the bounty is not enough,   once once they hit the machine.   The   I mean, all my all my real funds are not connected to this machine, so just keep that in mind, attackers that are listening right now.  

[01:40:56] Unknown:

Yes. They they are a multi jurisdictional   multisig,   which, you know, you lost the keys for.  

[01:41:02] Unknown:

So   should we talk about,   we we in the Sphinx tribe,   there was a lot of talk about seed XOR   Oh. Versus multisig.   Some person in the chat wants to borrow my laptop real quick.   The,   seed XOR versus,   multisig.   Open Arms, you wanna go through the different trade offs between the 2 of them?  

[01:41:31] Unknown:

First, could you describe XOR? Because this is a relatively new thing. Right? I I haven't had a chance to to catch up on it. So seed XOR is this idea  

[01:41:41] Unknown:

that, you use a relatively  

[01:41:45] Unknown:

straightforward  

[01:41:48] Unknown:

algorithm to to separate a seed into 2 seeds that are both BIP 39 compliant,   or you could do multiple. You can even do more than that. So you could do 10 seeds, and you need all the pieces. So it's almost like,   Shamir's   it's like Shamir's secret sharding,   but   each   each secret is also BIP 39 compliant.   How how did I do and and I guess it's it's it's easier to do. You can just do it, like, on on paper by yourself,   to prove that that it worked rather than with Shamir's is, like, a little bit more complicated to verify. What do you what do you think about that explanation, Open Arms?  

[01:42:29] Unknown:

I mean, I I didn't look into it very deeply, but I think that's that should be   correct. Yes.  

[01:42:38] Unknown:

So with all that said I'm not sure. Can can you do that on paper? Yeah. It's it's You release like a lookup table. Yeah. Yeah. I I should get the get the You released the lookup table, which is really fucking cool, and you I mean, you it's it's a little bit harder to verify the actual seed. Right? You would have to do, like, verifiable dice rolls, whatnot   to begin with, but if you have a seed that you trust,   actually turning it into seed XOR,   is a relatively easy process that you can do on your own.  

[01:43:05] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's it's it's yeah. It's very elegant.  

[01:43:10] Unknown:

So it's almost almost additive?  

[01:43:12] Unknown:

Like, it almost can be additive to what your current setup is, basically? Yeah. It has it has the same negative as single sig or Shamir's that you have to have combine all your secrets onto the same device. In this case, it would be a cold card,   to sign,   but   the,   the benefit over single sig is, like, instead of having just a straight clear text,   you know, seed plate or something like that, a metal plate that has your seed, you'd have multiple of them. But but there's no redundancy, so you have to you have to have all the secrets. Otherwise, you're you're shit out of luck, like shmear. Yeah. What what what is nice is that it can be done retroactively. So you already have a seed  

[01:43:56] Unknown:

because otherwise there is no, like, practical   difference with, like, using a big   a good pass phrase. Right? I mean in that case you have 2 parts. You have the pass phrase and you have the seed, and you combine them you have the wallet. But with this one, I mean first of all you can use as many parts as you like and also   you can break down your seed which is already existing.   So you   you can destroy that one backup   after you have   obviously breaking down   have, distributed into these source seeds and   seed source   and,   you know, verify that you can recover, you can just   destroy that original seed and you can have only have this kind of seed source   stored in, you know, different places or in in multiplies.  

It's, yeah, it's it's very nice thing to have if you if you ever worry about that you have only 1   seed which you didn't break up, you shouldn't, like, cut into 3 pieces.   Rather, you should do this.  

[01:45:06] Unknown:

What I like about it is that   it creates plausible deniability   everyone who uses a cold card or anything else that supports it,   and I like that   it's a relatively easy   improvement   that a single sig user can do. So so multisig is still the,   gold standard,   but, we've acknowledged on the show many times that there's still a lot of complexities with multisig.   I think it's just significantly easier than it's ever been, and it will continue to get easier.   And I think a lot of those concerns are overblown, but but it it definitely is more complex. I mean,   I don't know how many newcomers you guys have onboarded recently,   but, we definitely live in a little fucking bubble. Like, it is.  



[01:45:56] Unknown:

But I think what this thing is for, like,   governance purposes, like when you actually need to have 3 people controlling funds   and only, you know, 2 hours of the street can make a transaction.   That is   a a very good way to kind of, you know, govern, like, family funds or, like, a small company or and and and obviously you can, you can extend this to higher numbers, not infinite, but, you know, reasonably high. And and You can also use it in combination. You can you can seed XOR 1 of the multisig seeds. This is a backup improvement,   where you don't need to put   all your seed   into   a wallet. I'm I'm I'm into into one place, but I'm not,   yeah, I mean,   it sounds to me because it's   it's not derived information but it's actually combining it that you know it's cryptographically safe as well so it's it's   I cannot compare it to, like, you know, how,   compare it to, like, you know, Shamir Shamir Sikorshearing, but   I would think that it is, you know, comparable to that in kind of in in terms of security. So if you have one plate, you have no chance of recovering   the whole seed without the other one. So   that that that is good. And in terms of redundancy,   I mean, you can do   you can use   methods of backups and combine them   to have redundant packages   without using mode sig, still with your single sig. But, I mean, at least the the scheme I've been   studying   and, like, kind of writing down that at least it's it's using pass phrase as well. So,   you know, if you don't haven't used the pass phrase,   you you cannot use that kind of thing.  

So the yeah. So the best thing is that, you know, you just have a seed which you haven't circulated passphrase and you feel uneasy. Well, you can you can use it in combination with passphrase   too. Yes. You can do. You can do. But what I'm saying is that you don't need to move the funds to to secure them more with this method.  

[01:48:11] Unknown:

I think it's important yeah. Yeah. I agree. I it's but it's also important for the freaks to realize, like like, guys, the majority of the time, especially if you're not a public figure,   your complexity is going to be what kills you   Yeah. More   than, you know, an adversarial attacker.  

[01:48:28] Unknown:

You need to document it very carefully and put it into,   the dead man's switch.  

[01:48:34] Unknown:

Yeah. Which adds a privacy risk to that as well.  

[01:48:38] Unknown:

Well, you can have your own, but yes.  

[01:48:40] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well, just documenting things, backing up things is a privacy risk,   but that you have to balance because you should back up things. The   yeah.   I I so I had I had someone message me individually. I just want the freaks to know, per the previous conversation,   that I operate under the assumption that my device is already owned. Okay, guys? So there there is no,   if if if you wanna attack my fucking computer, have at it, but just know that I'm already assuming that there's, like, 4 different attackers already on the device. So just operate under that assumption.  

[01:49:20] Unknown:

Yep. VIP it regularly. That's,   best advice.  

[01:49:25] Unknown:

So what should we talk about next, guys?  

[01:49:31] Unknown:

Good question.   Yeah. I I I kinda wanted to highlight, at least in in this scenario, I've I've watched   the the  

[01:49:50] Unknown:

what's the other issue? Coinbase? Yeah. We have the evil empire on top. To those watching the video stream, that's Coinbase,   which is the most volume exchange still to date. Most volume   spot exchange, and then we have the good guys underneath, which is BISK.  

[01:50:05] Unknown:

Is but it's USD BISK. Right? So I I I would think it's probably   have more liquidity in euro.   Maybe. But then then it would be 2 different currencies displayed, so it's just not clean. They were just pointing it out that, you know, there's a lot of,   there are multiple currencies happening, and they have completely different kind of order books.  

[01:50:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the real volume's happening on the Monero Bitcoin order book on risk,   but that would be really surprising if I displayed that. Yeah. It's, like, 80% of their volume is the Monero Bitcoin order book.   Wow.   Okay. Which is why they have a fork happening right now,   and it's like a   Is it It's a real Yeah. They have their own v cache happening.  

[01:50:48] Unknown:

It's just a principle fork, isn't it? It's like it's they are not forking the code. They need to build up completely new from,   to be based   on Monero. Right? This have a new project, is that it?  

[01:51:01] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I don't know I don't know exactly. It is it is definitely a principle for it, because if if the goal is to just,   create a platform for   Bitcoin,   Monero swaps, then,   I don't know why you would just I don't know why you'd use the Biscope base. Like, the Biscope base is designed in a way to handle fiat trades.   I feel like you can do it more streamlined if you didn't wanna handle fiat trades, but   not my fight, and I will not be fighting that.   You wanna talk about Taproot? Are you guys optimistic on Taproot? We have a new difficulty adjustment about to happen. Is it gonna get activated in the next difficulty adjustment?   No.  



[01:51:42] Unknown:

Where were you at? 55%   now?  

[01:51:46] Unknown:

Less than that.   It's like,   seriously something.  

[01:51:51] Unknown:

Was it taproot.watch.com?  

[01:51:54] Unknown:

35. Yes. Well, I mean taproot.watch.  

[01:51:58] Unknown:

Okay. The the the whole block, the whole 2 week period   is at 35, but   we had some recent adjustments,   recent people signaling. I think pull in wasn't fully signaling at first.   Now they are. So the current total is 54.35%.  

[01:52:16] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:52:17] Unknown:

So going into the next block, we'll we'll have that or or maybe a little bit better if if people are sorry. Not next block. The next  

[01:52:23] Unknown:

next Unless unless the pools decide to fuck with us.   Yeah. Which people did last time.  

[01:52:31] Unknown:

Yeah. Didn't b t c yeah. Btc.com   is at one signal block out of a 142.   What's up with that?  

[01:52:39] Unknown:

They're gonna fuck with us. They always fuck with us in the signaling periods, because they can they can fuck with the   when we get really close, if if they switch what they signal,   they're gonna actually affect the price.   Last time it was extra bad because Segway was also being activated on Litecoin, and f two pool had   majority over on Litecoin as well.   So they were changing their signaling on both and affecting the prices of both   as they got closer to activation.   So I would be who have everyone to expect,   that we're gonna see, you know, them fucking around with us. As as we get closer, the incentive becomes more and more.  

Francis,   Francis of Bull Bitcoin,   he,   made a very interesting point that, you know, there's   no one remembers   the the guys who signaled in between. Like, everyone remembers   the first guys to signal and the last guys to signal when the activation is, like, really fucking tight. So the the incentive in the middle is kind of,   just not as strong. So I I do expect fuck arounds to happen.  

[01:53:49] Unknown:

Do you think,  

[01:53:50] Unknown:

like, especially with Binance,   you know, going on Twitter and saying, hey, guys, should we signal and and that kind of bullshit. Do you think they're trying to save the day at the end and say, yes, guys. We're we're the reason,   you know, kind of a publicity stunt?  

[01:54:05] Unknown:

I think I think if you use Binance as your pool, you're not a real Bitcoin miner. But,   all I can say is we have all these proof of stake currencies coming out,   that are gonna have KYC regulated fucking cut exchanges as their main security providers of the network, so   they can have fun staying poor with that. Like, that's not gonna be a a pleasant thing. At least Binance is,   what is Binance percentage right now? They're, like, fucking nothing. 0%.  

[01:54:34] Unknown:

Percent?  

[01:54:35] Unknown:

10.34%   Oh, yeah. Binance pool,   which is, you know, if if it was if it was proof of stake, Binance would be significantly higher than that. Yeah. Imagine price. I I didn't even know they were they were a Bitcoin pull until  

[01:54:51] Unknown:

until Taproot, honestly.  

[01:54:55] Unknown:

I think it's relatively recent.   So, Anthony, me and you,   we kind of, like, flirted on Twitter about it. I called you out on the show a bunch of times.   You wanna talk about lightning pool and and the rates that they're offering and how that affects with, you know, fee market and whatnot?  

[01:55:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.   I've been playing around for a little bit. I'm not, like, a super pro at it,   but   one of the things,   when when pull originally launched, and I've been watching the charts, there's a Twitter handle, I think it's just lightning pull,   an unofficial,   Twitter.   You know, we we we're seeing rates anywhere between, you know,   3%,   to all the way to, like, 20.   I think some extreme cases even even above that.   And,   you know, as of as of recently,   you know, I joined in and and I've got, like, a,   like, a   a few, like, 10 to 15%   rates, which, were pretty good. I I were I was able to lease channels for about that much.  

What ended up happening to me,   was that we got into that situation   where, you know, we we were losing Hash rate in China,   and, you know, the difficulty   was just way too high to be able to support a transaction, so we got high fee rates.   And I ended up doing the math, and the   channels that I leased,   if I were to close,   because right now in the median pool, you you lease channels for 2 weeks total, which is kind of funny that it lines up with the difficulty adjustment. Right? So you could end up,   doing your, you know, cost basis and saying, okay. Cool. The transaction fees are just   are just, you know, you know, a   few sets per byte right now.  

It's not gonna cost me that much to do an on chain transaction. So let me do my calculations to come out to okay. You know, a 6%   lease sounds good to me. And so you you you open up your lease, you sell them,   someone buys them, and then now the new difficult your 2 weeks are up, a new difficulty has has sprung,   and all of a sudden, now cost you a whole lot more to do,   to close your channel. Because right? So you've leased the channel, now it's time to close it. Otherwise,   that peer if you keep that channel open, that peer is essentially getting, you know, every day past 14,   they're essentially getting a free channel,   that   you, as the leaser, pay the transaction fee for. You are locking up the the funds with them. And to close out the channel, you are the 1 the leaser is the one to pay the closing transaction fee costs.  

So in total,   there there are about 3 on chain transactions you have to do as a leaser. You you Brutal.   It sucks. It's terrible. They they say that they're gonna try to fix it so you can,   try to close into a Lightning Pool. So essentially,   you to to be a leaser,   you have to make an on chain transaction to a Lightning Pool account, which is basically a multi sig a 2 zero two multi sig with Lightning Labs,   that expires after   whatever you can set your own expiration date when you want it to expire. So if if Lightning Labs were to go away after a few weeks, you could recover your funds.   So it's a, 22 fall back to your own private key. So you you move funds into the pool account,   then when you sell a lease, and you can you can sell multiple leases with with   with your funds, you end up,   opening the channel,   and you pay the fees for that. And then you close the channel, and you pay the fees for that. And then you have to go back into pool,   and you pay the fees for that as well. So   each round of of selling a channel that you're going through, you're paying off 3 on chain transactions,   and it got to the situation where I couldn't close my channels,   that had expired that, you know, I I fulfilled my end of the bargain. I fulfilled my 2 week period, and I couldn't close my channels, or I would be I would be so negative.  

You know, we were we were seeing what, like, 10 or $15,   on chain fees. I've got how many expense that was. Yeah. There is no way I was I was I was gonna do that. And   then when when I say   6 to 10% or whatever for a lease, what I mean is if that were annualized.   If I had that channel open What you mean is it's bullshit?   What I mean is yes. You're not actually   you're getting   6%   APR   for a 2 week period.   So whatever that comes down to, what, like, 0.12%  

[01:59:52] Unknown:

Why is it 2 weeks? 2 weeks seems way too short, like, aren't we supposed to lower our time preference?  

[01:59:57] Unknown:

Yeah.   Lightning pole, it's it's technically   Lightning Pool supports being able to do a variety of different,   lease times.   But in order to have   a more   a better auctioning,   I guess, what am I trying to say?   Have more people  

[02:00:22] Unknown:

a bigger order book   or more offers. Right?  

[02:00:25] Unknown:

Yeah. To to have more offers that match,   they make everyone do just 2 weeks. But as we start getting more offers,   as more people start using pull, buying and selling,   they're gonna open it up to to have more   variety of of different,   lease periods. So which would be good?  

[02:00:44] Unknown:

So this goes into a thing that I've been talking about a lot on the podcast,   is   this idea   of reputation. Right? So so   not only do you have these other aspects of lightning pool, but they're also,   right now, I guess, you can only lease channels if you have a certain boss score, which they're calling the balance of Satoshi score, but it was   Oh, you can me not to mention that it was made by Alex Bosworth, and it's his  

[02:01:13] Unknown:

it's his name. So by default, who whoever puts the bids or which is so when you're buying channels,   by default you are accepting   channels from or buying channels from the nodes in the tier 1, which is an obscure   ranking system. Part of it is like the BOS score probably,   but   I mean it's kind of   a quality   control of the liquidity  

[02:01:40] Unknown:

being sold. So I guess,   it it got released today to try and make it less   If you're watching this live, it's in the chat. If you click that,   this is our stacking sats node,   which I've tried my best to run Oh. A NICE Sovereign Tor routing node. It has $270,000   worth of capacity, and I just wanna let the attackers know that also includes remote capacity. That's not all the capacity that I have on my node,   and they're just destroying me. I'm unstable.  

[02:02:19] Unknown:

I have 0 hunt 0 I have a 158 peers, and 0 of them are good according to them. Well, that is just because it doesn't doesn't go through after it so once your uptime is is solved, which will be, like, within a week or or or 1, 2 weeks, you know, it depends. If you had, like, a downtime for a while, then it will get resolved after after the time. No. But I moved this node 3 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, I moved this node to Nautle Cloud.  

[02:02:46] Unknown:

Yeah. So shout out to the Nautle team. Yeah. The Nautle team are sponsoring this node. They're hosting it on their own high uptime cloud servers.   I have 0 of a 158 of my peers are are considered good peers by them, and I'm an unstable node even though it's been around for 2 years. Like, that that seems bugged. That seems bugged. Yeah. But it it's it's probably  

[02:03:07] Unknown:

if it will be like, we can't know what their time limits, but if it's if it will be stable so, obviously, you had a downtime when you were moving. But if you were stable for, like, a month, you need to be kind of, you know, waiting for this. And then,   the   last option I noticed because I was after testing this thing as well. I mean,   I don't know anything about the background code because it's not,   published as far as I know. But   my It's not open?   I don't think so. Yeah.   But my, my notes have been, you know, up and down, and I could see that, you know, if I do an an update or I do a bit of a crash management, stuff like that, you know, then the uptime   does suffer,   obviously. And then   after a couple of weeks, it comes back up. And then if you if you have, like, a couple of well capitalized   peers who are actually all green in this   kind of list, then you will have  

[02:04:07] Unknown:

some good peers as well. If So, like, what do they want me to do? They they like, do I have to updates. Do I have to bend my knee to the Lightning Labs, or do I do I get rid of all a 158  

[02:04:17] Unknown:

peers I have and just, you know, close all my channels and start fresh? Like, what the fuck do they want me to do? For the uptime, you just need to wait, you know. It will be probably resolved, but you can always I mean, there is, like, a submit feedback here. Right? Please, sir. Click the link?  

[02:04:31] Unknown:

Yes. I mean, how how bad is that? They're, like, fucking doing us, man.  

[02:04:37] Unknown:

So this is  

[02:04:39] Unknown:

an interactive guide. Right? So it just makes these suggestions how you can how you can improve.  

[02:04:44] Unknown:

Well, it it's an it's an interactive guide, but it's also   it's also segregating him from a market.   Yeah. Like,   I I think something's fucked. To to have so I'm, like,   I'm not gonna submit too much information, but I have   between a dozen or 2 dozen channels. That's it.   All self funded. And I   and even during the Texas outages   where my node was down for for basically a week and a half, I didn't lose my spot in  

[02:05:18] Unknown:

in the BOS score. And and I'll just just to be clear, this is not the BOS score. This is a that's a separate thing. There might be a one that I think the ordering  

[02:05:27] Unknown:

is based on the Boscore.   Is it not?  

[02:05:31] Unknown:

I mean, we can we can check that. I have a link for the Boscore now. They have to be ranked at 424, so  

[02:05:37] Unknown:

as Paul pointed out, we only need 4 more rank spots to get the the nice 420 here.  

[02:05:42] Unknown:

So it's not the same rank as as in the BOS score. It is completely different. This node actually has a decent BOS score.  

[02:05:49] Unknown:

Yeah. My other node, which is a way better node than this node that's not public,   it does not have a good BOS score, and it's also tour only, and it has a very good job of mine.  

[02:05:59] Unknown:

So I'm I'm looking stacking stacking stats isn't on the BOS score right now.  

[02:06:04] Unknown:

It was before. It they they knocked me off. It's because I keep telling people that it's his last name, and so they removed me from the it's because I it's because we proposed the Odell score on the on the on the show. Now I'm now I'm blackballed.  

[02:06:18] Unknown:

See, there was a few days where I wasn't on the score, and and I thought I was, and I I tweeted at them, and and then within a few days, I was back on. I'm not saying that what happened, but that's what happened.  

[02:06:29] Unknown:

But, again, if you know, until that until the downtime   marker is or, like, uptime marker is red, you will be down from the BOS score as well. And once it gets trained, you know, whatever whatever is not finished the BOS list.  

[02:06:42] Unknown:

God. It hurts, doesn't it?  

[02:06:45] Unknown:

I feel censored.  

[02:06:47] Unknown:

This is like PayPal all over again. So as a, OpenHabs hinted at it earlier, but as just,   just   a disclaimer,   you can still be on Lightning Pool, but as a tier 0 node,   And   buyers,   have to opt in to accepting,   leases from tier 0 notes.   And I don't know if that happens very often or not.   Theoretically, I I don't know why it hasn't been done yet, but the lightning poll Twitter, you know, it'll tell you who buys or not who buys. It'll tell you when a lease was bought   and for what percentage.   But what it doesn't tell you is who bought   and who sold.  

And I I think I don't know if you can tell   I don't think you can tell who bought and who sold, but you can tell the 2 peers that were in that.  

[02:07:43] Unknown:

Yeah. You just look it up. But I Yeah. Once the channel is confirmed, you just take that   txid, put it into one ml.com, and it will spit it out to peers.  

[02:07:54] Unknown:

Yeah. What what I don't know is if you could figure this out   very easily,   like you said, but I wanna know how many tier 0   leases are being bought, if if at all. It's possible that it's not really. I mean, there are not many matches at all. Yeah. There are not that many matches at all. Right? So And, occasionally, I see leases being bought and where it's like like, oh, cool. This channel was sold for for 300 satoshis. And I'm like, are you fucking serious? Unchained fees are $15   or whatever right now. Like, they paid $15,   and they got 300 sats,   out out of that, which will go away,   which is already gone before they even   as they open that channel   and spend that on chain transaction, that 300 sats is is in the negative.  



[02:08:43] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it it's it's only good to kind of put if you have   chance,   funds to deploy to the lightning network, then it's probably a good idea to kind of put in   put it where it is asked for or where it is needed. So   in the hope that it will generate some routing fees. And for this reason, I wouldn't even close it because,   you know, to   I mean, I never opened a lightning channel which I would only want to keep open for, like, 2 weeks.   I mean, unless it's like, you know, goes offline or or there is   some shenanigans,   but,   yes. So it's it's it's just   kind of a pointer where   channels could be opened.  

That's how I look at it. It's not generating.   I mean, it did generate some income for me, but   I never never closed this channel. So again, that is   still coming,   that cost.  

[02:09:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Because when you when you close those channels, it will the fee will be taken from from you. Right? So at that point, you have to do a cost analysis. Do I think   keeping this channel open with this peer will get me routing funds,   or should I just close it? Plus, on top of that,   closing a 2 week channel, am I gonna get a negative score on the BOS score? You know?   Is that is that one of the metrics used? I know they said that one of the metrics used is if you close   during a high fee rate environment,   that's a negative,   score. Not a negative score. It hurts your score a little at least a little bit. So   at that point, why would I you're almost   joining a pool and then closing 2 weeks. I would think that just hurts your score.  

Or this Which is another thing that just suck. Why are we why are we worried about scores?   It it's it   it sucks that to be part of the market, you're we're worried about these scores.  

[02:10:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I I do feel that the very different approach of,   the Sea Lightning team and this kind of dual funding channel   in   in initiative does   eat into this model a lot. And, I mean, I I I will be very curious to see that who   probably if   they are, you you know, if it's easy or, like, feasible for them to technically,   implement it, then they would be probably much quicker to do do a funding channel do a funding channels than than L and T will be.   We'll see how it goes. I'm very curious   about this. Because obviously they are, you know,   for the   profit making services, profit generating services.  

And also pool does take, like,   what is it, a 10 bip or   a 1,000   In fairness. Cents per 1,000?  

[02:11:41] Unknown:

It it can go up to 25%   of what you're selling. So, like, if I'm if I'm doing a 10 lease channel   and it's currently set at lightning pole takes 25%   off of that, then I'm essentially just getting 8%,   or or sorry, 7.5%.   And and Lightning Labs takes   the other  

[02:12:03] Unknown:

25%. Isn't isn't they have the fixed fee of of a 1,000 1,000 per million? Like, a 1,000 sets per million? So, basically, a 1,000 PPM. Varies, I think.   Is it? Okay. I mean Mhmm. When I last looked at it, it wasn't, but then it might could have changed.   Anyway,   they do a significant  

[02:12:22] Unknown:

cut on this for sure. Yeah. What what I do like about pull, though, is that at least it   it keeps some accountability to the people that are selling channels   through, like, other means. So, like, Bitrefill store, they sell channels. Alan Big sells channels on their own. They have for a while.   Even Alex Bosworth, he sells channels   on y'alls.   It at least holds some kind of accountability metric and some sort it's not a completely free market because not everyone can participate   or at least   participate to the fullest, at least at a default level,   but at least has some   accountability, some marketplace.  

And what we've seen is that,   over the last few weeks, it has sort of trended to 6%.   So we're seeing   those kind of rates currently.   I always look at lightning the lightning polls Twitter account every every now and then to kinda see what it's at. And right now, it's about 6%. And honestly, I have some orders, and I'm like, I'm not sorry, I'm not going down to 6%   and having to pay all these on chain fees or or whatever. So I have some really high fee and some really high rate and someone's gonna pay for it. Great. Otherwise,   you know, the the shitty thing is my account   with with with Lightning Labs expires in in 3 weeks. So at at the end of 3 weeks, I have   to do more on chain transactions if I don't sell   sell these sell these leases.  

It's just on chain transaction after on chain transaction.   It sucks.   I I do agree.   See Lightning's,   implementation of doing dual funding will be great,   and and hopefully alleviate some of that.  

[02:14:06] Unknown:

Yeah. And and and you were right, Edward. Just checking on the Lighting Labs,   documentation, loop doc poor documentation that the basic the fees will range from 5 to 25 basis points per user. So it's 500 to 2,500   per 1,000,000   depending on the liquidity   purchased.   I wonder if it's lower if it is it higher if it's the the it's a low liquidity or is it,  

[02:14:31] Unknown:

yeah, it's a Pretty good question. And and is it higher if you go   for a high rate yourself? Or   Yeah. Or is it lower if you're if you're only selling for 3%,   does does do they still take  

[02:14:45] Unknown:

the same basis points? So it's a good question. From both. It it is from both sides. Right? So also the seller and the,   buyer pays as well.  

[02:14:54] Unknown:

Oh, wow. Okay.   Well, good for them.  

[02:14:59] Unknown:

Well So I mean It's it's a good it's a product.  

[02:15:02] Unknown:

It yeah. Definitely.  

[02:15:05] Unknown:

I have a couple of things to add here. I mean, first of all, I mean, obviously, lightning pool is very new, so,   we should cut them some credit.   Of course. Cut them some slack.  

[02:15:14] Unknown:

It's it's it's an awesome service. You know? Yes. I do really like it, but it's it's in a experimental phase, it feels.  

[02:15:22] Unknown:

First off around definitely. Which is awful.  

[02:15:24] Unknown:

So  

[02:15:25] Unknown:

First off, I just became aware that,   to us, when we see the overlay chat is working as designed,   but going out to the different streaming services, if you were watching this live,   for whatever reason, Restream is fucking up. So,   you guys don't see the chat from the other,   streaming services on your screen.   I'm gonna leave it as it is because I'm pretty sure once I download this video after the fact, it will still keep the overlay chat.   So that's why it looks like on the on the right side of your screen just, like, empty. It's really filled with chat for us, and I it's just you know, we're we're we're beholden to the centralized service that provides   this streaming capability to us, so that's why it is empty on your screen.  

As far as as far as lightning pool goes, I mean, I think it goes further than that. I think it's really hard   for a Lightning node operator to   comprehend what their future on chain fee burden is. It's like it's a very difficult thing to,   calculate   or or even just account for in your head. Like, you don't have to calculate it perfectly,   count in my head   what my future on chain fee burden is gonna be or what my on chain fee burden is in general,   when I don't know what the fees are gonna be in the future.   And it's it's something that I think we're just gonna constantly be up against. It's it's just there's, there's no real easy way to,   conceptualize that. Would you guys agree?  



[02:17:07] Unknown:

Yeah. It could be almost like a prediction market as well.  

[02:17:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I I kinda got burned.   The last difficulty adjustment, I had a,   a forced closure just due to an unresolved HCLC,   and boom, like, you know, $15.   I forgot what the SaaS were at the time. I just remember thinking, fuck. It's $15 or so,   that,   that I paid because   essentially a bug. Right? Some miscommunication between my node   and the other node   and,   ended up losing   losing $15 from that when I remember opening that channel when it was a low fee environment.   So it kinda   kinda kinda sucks. You know, it almost made me think, damn, if fees are really high, I almost kinda wanna,   you know,   not route,   just on the off chance that I have a forced closure that just, you know, a voice mail. I I think anchor channels help fix this.  

Do you do you guys know much about how that works?  

[02:18:15] Unknown:

So so so there's this fee negotiation about the the closure, but, I mean, first of all, anchor   commitments only work for the cooperative   case, so it doesn't help   the problem you just described. The force close fee is basically,   you know, that's when there is   the con the,   this is not the justice transaction that is much worse,   But this is just an uncooperative   or unilateral clause when basically the   the   peers   cannot make the decision of chain, so they need to go to the chain,   or or one side needs to go to the chain. And, that is expensive because there is   a race condition because   if someone would have   like, a a transaction which could which could kind of   which could be valid and would have a different state, a different balance, then, you know, there would be a possibility there to to   steal funds.  

So   that's why it is always high,   significantly higher than the next   block fee   was when it was last agreed. So it's kind of it's it's tricky because it could have been agreed   in a low fee environment and then the peer disappears, goes offline, and then you force close and it will be a a low fee and it won't, you know, and it won't even go through.   So, yeah, it it is a problem. I mean, the only   solution to this is basically getting rid of all this and going to the add 2 protocol, which will be made available by and   further,   kind of, you know, improvements in the in in in the lightning protocol or further changes.  

And then   anchor commitments. So what what's happens there, on the cooperative close, you don't need to,   agree on a minor   fee, but it just closes with the default low fee. Like, it just needs to be as high as to be guaranteed to get   relayed.   So, or get into the mempool. It's like 10 sets per byte is the default,   which can be modified.   And then   whoever   initiates the close   basically   does a child's child pays for parent transaction,   on this anchor output, which is   different because it it goes   into   his wallet straight.   And   because of that, it can be bumped   with,   with another UTXO in the wallet. Right? So it is it is just, basically,   a a charge pay for for parents,   for the closes.  

It is similar to when you open a channel and you have a change output, which I actually wanted to   to mention in the beginning that, that is a trade off   in terms   of security or kind of, you know, being stuck in a mempool   when you are opening a channel with 1 UTXO and not creating any change, which is good for good for privacy, but bad for the case when you try to open a channel and try to snoop a a low chain fee and then the manual suddenly shoots up and stays like this for 2 weeks,   then,   you know, your channel will be stuck   and you will end up force closing it because after 2 weeks the other peer forgets about it and it will never come online.  

So for that reason, it's good to have, like, a change output   for the opens,   and then you can do this fee bumping or, you know, more technically, it's called a child space for parent transaction.   So the anchor commitment is the same thing for the closes.   And   and the,   kind of game theory of the of the channel closing changes in   in a bit   that,   currently,   whoever opened the channel will pay the full cost of the   closure as well. Let it be   cooperative or uncooperative,   4 screws.   But in the case of anchor commitments,   if you   have   an a a compatible channel,   whoever initiates the force   initiates the cooperative close will   do this   child based or parent transaction   on top, so he will bear the the most of the closure.  



[02:22:51] Unknown:

See, I I kinda like that aspect of it.  

[02:22:54] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's it's a bit strange because it's it's good to open them,   obviously, because you haven't got the 100% chance of needing to pay the close fee. But then if you receive them,   you actually you know, you might need to be bare cost that you otherwise wouldn't have. And, also, it has a bit of an added added incentive to go on the uncooperative   closed route because always the opener would   pay that still.   So  

[02:23:23] Unknown:

Interesting.   Yeah. So in in the case of dual funded dual funded channels,   currently, who who pays   who pays the closing fee?  

[02:23:35] Unknown:

That's a good question.  

[02:23:36] Unknown:

I haven't looked into that, sir. And you guys are aware that, like, LND will just, like, randomly close, force close channels too as well. Right?   Yeah. That's the that's the bug bugs I There's been bugs. Yes. Unless my, like, 5 or 6 channel partners who have come to me about it are lying on their side, but someone force closes a bunch of channels. The thing is it it it can be always an HDFC, which did not resolve off chain. So  

[02:24:01] Unknown:

it timed out or or or peer or your peer got, went offline.   And if it's   lower than the dust   amount,   then it won't   show as a different output. So you can only tell it tell if it was an HDFC, if there is like a 3rd output from the channel close,   or 3rd, 4th, 5th, you know, you can go into this attack switch to,   flood your channel as well. But then,   if it's lower than the DAS amount,   let it be, like, 1 set of buy 1 satoshi   micropayment,   and it doesn't resolve, then it will still go to a forced cruise, but it won't   be shown. So we won't be able to tell what what caused  

[02:24:45] Unknown:

it. Yeah. So when when   when we have, like, insane fee environments like we do,   one suggestion I would have would be to set your min   HTLC to at least   what the not the DUS limit, what what's a reasonable   fee that you would pay. That way, you're not even if it's above the dust limit, you don't wanna close your channel just because, you know, what, 5,000 sats were unresolved, like, that would suck if you were paying, you know, more than that or about that much just to close the channel, just to recover 5,000 sats, which goes away with the fee anyways.   So, like, if you're the channel opener, like, possibly, you know, decide to set them in HTLC to,   you know, whatever whatever you feel comfortable paying a fee for to recover those,   those possible funds.  

Another aspect I wanted to bring up is, you know, I won't name names, but there's this one peer   that does run an l and d node that I know of that is my best   best routing peer. I get so much funds,   sent   from them to me, you know, vice versa, from me to them.   And but here's the thing, they have a history   of channel closing, just bugs happening because of so much volume going through their node.   So it's it's a game of chance. I have to decide, okay, do I open a channel with them,   try to collect as much fees as I can from this node,   and and it'll eventually probably close because they always have forced closing issues.  

Or do I just say, you know, I'm not gonna take that risk. So,   of course, every now and then I take that risk, and the channels stay open for, what, 2 or 3 days, and then it'll force close. It'll be like, fuck. I didn't I didn't collect enough fees from them.   Sometimes it'll be once it was a month, and I I collected so much fees from them,   and it made it made it worth, opening a channel with them. So it's like a game of chance almost. I I 100% agree with you, Matt, where you you you don't really know what your fee burden is. So You're probably getting so much fees from them because they're closing on all their other routing partners.  

[02:26:47] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[02:26:48] Unknown:

They don't have very many channels, and this is why. This is so it's it's a game of chance. That's why I try to set my min fee rate,   to be a little bit higher with them just because I don't want just any little one set   fucking HTLC to close the channel. Yeah.  

[02:27:05] Unknown:

And also also you can increase the base fee, so every payment is, you know, more paying more than 1 satoshi. So,   obviously, then the micro payments won't be coming through unless that's the only   way only path.  

[02:27:21] Unknown:

So,   open arms. The other day,   on dispatch, I guess it was maybe 2 weeks ago, maybe it was 3 weeks ago.   We were talking about static channel backups, and you said that the term static channel backup is a bad term.   It's it should be called   static channel disaster recovery.   Do you want do you want to   give the context of the pre on this?  

[02:27:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, the the process is is disaster recovery rather than rather than channel backup because,   there are different things here. So you have   a couple of information about your routing nodes. First of all the seed which does encode   the on chain funds,   in in, like, c lightning is like can be a big 39 compatible even,   but, l and d has its own seed   standard which is called eezed and it cannot be restored in only wallets which support it. Like, Google, it does support it, so it's great, that you can use other other wallets, not just a kind of command line NND node or, like,   some node which has been made ready to do that.  

And then   you have the channel states which are encoding your   tab with your peers   of funds in the 2 of 2 multisig.   So that's a bit more complicated and you don't have all don't have everything to to control that,   those funds   just by yourself   if you are, you know, like simplifying things.   And that is stored in a file called channel db, at least with lnd,   and   that is a file which is also growing and is also being written very often if if   the node is busy, and it can be corrupted for this reason.   And if it's being lost, then you are losing   your your side of the channel states.  

And, basically, the channels will will be offline, and you won't you won't be able to to recover   them   as the protocol is at the moment. I mean, there are developments doing being made here as well. You would need to   have all those channels forced closed.   And that's when this static channel backup file comes in which is a static file only changes when you are opening or closing a channel. It just encodes the   necessary   points,   the keys basically to   ping your peers   to make them   start the force closing.   So it's not you who are doing the forced close but your peer. So   as a consequence, if your peers are offline   then the funds are stuck. The good thing is   if they come online in the future, you can   do this recovery procedure   again and again anytime as you like,   until   you have all the funds back after the force close back into the   back into your on chain wallet. So   it's gonna incur a huge cost.  

If for example, thinking of think of, like,   you know, $300   Raspberry Pi setup and you have, like,   you know, 30 channels in there.   In   a busier time in the mempool, it can be easily, you know, the multiplies of the   $300, what it costs   to close, like, you know, 30, 40, a 100 channels.  

[02:31:05] Unknown:

But it it's even worse than that. I mean, you made a good point that I never really thought about, and, this is why dispatch, I think, is so important,   is because no one really talks about this shit,   is   is   when you do that SCB,   when you do that static channel disaster recovery mode,   your channel partners can if they're running a custom client, they can notice you're doing that, and they can just use take advantage of that situation to,   broadcast an old state and take your money. Right?  

[02:31:40] Unknown:

Well, I mean, that that is stopped by   the existence of, watchtowers.  

[02:31:46] Unknown:

Right. Because everyone's using watchtowers.  

[02:31:48] Unknown:

I mean, I do use watchtowers, multiples multiple watchtowers, but Of course.   Obviously, it's yeah. It cannot be said. Everyone is. But you are risking. Right? So if you are   trying to cheat, then you are risking the whole content of the channel, not only your side, not only the, you know, other peers' side of the funds.   So it's, yeah, it's it's it's a gamble, and you would need to be having, like, a modified client to look for look for these things because there is there is a protocol which does   say that,   which does work in sea lighting as well, whoever   although they don't have this kind of static channel backup setup, so they don't even have this file, but they only trust   I mean,   I'm not so so   they are their setup is that if you have an old copy of your channel database,   then you can,   in this disaster situation, still attempt recovering,   but then   you need to trust   that,   your peers are   supporting this kind of protocol where they won't,   just penalize you for publishing an old state, but they would initiate a forced closing step.  

And that is true for   most of the peers or most of the channels which have been opened, like, after, last November.   So,   yeah,   the the automatic   the the way it is built in, you know, the cheating is not, like, facilitated at least.  

[02:33:24] Unknown:

One of the one of the things I wanted to highlight,   I believe we sent, that link out to you guys, node dash recovery.com. Yeah. That's fantastic.   One of the things that came out recently from Oliver,   from Lightning Labs, he actually   came up with this process of so what what OpenNomps described of, like, okay, you have a long lost peer. They went offline.   You can't cover your funds with your static channel backup because there's no one to initiate that forced closure.   One of the things Oliver came up with is a process to   essentially kind of match,   long lost peers together.  

So, you know, if I went offline for a long time and I only have my seed left and open NOMs went offline for a long time and he only has his seed left, there's no one to use the static channel backup to to initiate the process. We can go through this node recovery process,   submit our information,   to, Oliver. So it's it's not it's not a, you know, we're we're trusting him with privacy, but we we lost our funds. Right? We're trying to recover them back. So we,   he'll eventually match up the 2 peers together if they both submit their, you know, their node ID, and he can initiate a process to be able to recover the funds offline with those 2,   with each peer having their own bringing their seat to the table and trying to recover   recover the funds. So,   I think that came out just this month, and it's a it's a cool little process too. And so far,   he recently he said he recently helped someone recover 31   lightning channels,   through this way, which is amazing.  



[02:35:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It's it's really nice. It's basically it's it's your last chance to to find a peer when the peer doesn't have this contact point and and, I mean, KeyStone doesn't have this. If the peer is on offline, obviously, you won't be able to contact, and they didn't leave any kind of,   Telegram or email or whatever.   But you can still hope that they would pick up on this message. Or, I mean, they they would come here and advertise that they have a problem,   and then you would come as well and   Oliver matches. It's really nice of him.   But it's indeed,   saving a lot of locked funds from from these 2 of the 46. Right?  



[02:35:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. One of one of the things we we touched on l two recently,   It's a it's a an alternative to this l n penalty,   mechanism that we described where we we we can publish an outdated state, and and we have this process whether to Watchtower or myself. We can punish the other peer   doing uploading or publishing an outdated state.   With L2, it's interesting that that kinda goes away.   If if someone were to publish an outdated state,   the l two protocol has this, and and I'm saying l two as   e l t o o. So it's not l 2, like the letter l. It's kinda confusing.   But this protocol states that you can instead of having this forced closure,   scenario where, you know, someone loses all of their funds, which I think historically,   if we're being honest, I don't think a lot of the the forced closures publishing an outdated state. I I don't think a lot of them are malicious. I think it's just accidental   or, you know, something screwed up. I I don't know. Even if you were if your disc went out of sync and you accidentally publish a bad state, you know, you essentially lose all your funds in that channel,   because the other peer will see that and say, oh, no. Hell no. And they'll they'll punish you for it. With l two, that kinda goes away.  

If someone were to publish an outdated state, it for the protocol, it has mechanism where you can basically attach the rest of the state   to as as the output. Sorry. Spending the output of the closing transaction, you can basically recover   to the correct state,   from there. So it it it I'm not gonna say that it incentivizes people to publish out stated states if if their peer went offline, but it kind of incentivized people   to publish out stated states if their peers go offline, because there's no penalty to them. The worst case scenario,   the peer comes back online or a watchtower comes in a place and then puts you know, makes a, on chain transaction,   making the outputs   what they should be.  



[02:37:46] Unknown:

And and, yes, that yeah. That's,   that will be great. But just another comment on this, and the lack of flash hours. For example, let's say that, you know, you have done that,   you know, great node we have suggested to put, like, half a bitcoin into one big channel and then, you know, just use it to pay,   very privately.   It it it's very nice thing that your node crashes and you   need to use the static channel backup for a forced close. There is no previous if you only paid from that node and there has been only one channel there, so there was no routing and   balance shifting around. If you only paid out from the channel, there's no previous state where you had less money. So, basically,   even if the peer would attempt to,   put a per previous state, it couldn't cheat you out of money. So in that case, watchtowers don't, are not necessary.  



[02:38:41] Unknown:

That's true. Yeah. No. I always tell people that I I I'm not running a watchtower,   so go ahead and try to,   try to punish me if I go offline.   Just just just go ahead. Likewise.   It it would be yeah. I'll I'll just it will be in my favor if you were trying to publish an outdated state,   and I actually am running a watchtower. So I just wanted   to make that clear. So there's kind of, like, you know, not saying don't tell people you're wanting to run-in a watchtower or not, but if you are running a watchtower and you wanna act like you're not,   you know, it'd be in your interest to to have the other peer try to, force close. Not that that's the, you know, not saying to do that, and don't try to steal funds from people.  

But,   it kinda punishes bad actors,   and I do feel like for that.  

[02:39:34] Unknown:

I feel like,   we're still in the honeymoon period where,   like, lightning's not really   we're not we're not existing in an adversarial environment yet. Would you agree?  

[02:39:48] Unknown:

From the channel from the Chainfees point of view, we had a quite adverse period   and tour attacks and things. But, yes, the the, network is nowhere as Like, we could be getting attacked way more.  

[02:40:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Could be. I I I agree. And I think, there's there's 2 main ones. I don't I don't think we touched on them yet, but there's 2 ways that   would really suck for to to be attacked with, and that's that's balance probing,   and,   sorry, griefing attacks where where you lock up Yep. You lock up a channel.   Those really suck. And luckily, I don't think people bounce probe. I know that's the boss,   Alex Bosworth and his boss score. Like, that's one of the things that they do. They bounce probe.   And and it it they don't do it in a malicious way to try   to snoop out individual payments. But that is, theoretically, a way you can try to, you know,   snoop out individual payments or at least   a gauge economic activity of certain channels by constantly balance probing.  

I I I don't think we we're in an environment where that's   a huge   burden.   But, you know, it it it kinda sucks that that bad data on the lightning network is free.   You could route   all the fake payments you want,   and it's not gonna cost you a thing in routing fees. By the time it reaches the destination, they crafted the payment in a way with a fake payment hash where it just won't be fillable once once it hits that destination, if it does hit that destination. So the fact that   the fact that bad data is free in the Lightning Network,   I I think it's inevitable that   it could get us in a tricky situation later on, or it gets us in a situation where we try to   build   protocols   around it or or have this there's been proposals like reputational based routing where to even route a payment or attempt to route a payment,   you you you pay for that or you have your reputation attached to that. There's   different proposals for it. So so, like, I would agree that we haven't gone to the point where we've had to go to   any extremes where, like, everyone's channels are being locked up because of because of the grief and attacks. And then I don't think,   I I wanna run a test on my note to to keep track of what could potentially be a bunch of fake payments going through my note right now. Right now, I don't think anyone really sees it. I like, there could be thousands of fake payments going through your node right now, and you don't know it because you're not collecting any routing fees off of it. So you don't see it visually   that that there's a bunch of payments   going through your node that that that aren't being fulfilled, that maybe maybe it's just appear that, you know, couldn't get liquidity to their destination and and, you know, it's an honest peer. But it could be, you know, 100, 1,000 maybe. No no one knows how many fake payments  

[02:42:52] Unknown:

are going through their note at any given time. It it's it's really nice to run, the circuit breaker, you know, by, Jost Jager,   because it does log you this this kind of thing, how many pending HTLCs are are so basically   payments in flight are on the channels   and also that how long they are kind of pending there because, I mean, that's what it is, set up against,   this griefing attack.   But,   it showed me that   so by default,   yeah, you can have, like,   on l and d at least 483   payments pending at a time per channel.   So that is huge.  

And, like, imagine   getting into force close where you have, like, you know, 500 outputs or like,   you know, 400 outputs.   But   with circuit breaker it's by default does limit it to 5 which is, I mean, in most cases.   I I didn't I mean, I'm still running it and continuously running it. I don't think I've   missed out on any routing fees because of that. Obviously, that would be it would be rather micropayments if anything coming through in that rate.   And,   that showed me a lot of probes   as well because there have been, like, so many   HTS is coming in and and just   noted,   but no routing fees.  

So, obviously, they were not payments which have been successful. So it shows you it shows you potential  

[02:44:28] Unknown:

probes?  

[02:44:29] Unknown:

Well, I mean, you can just tell because there are HDLCs, and there is no   success.   Mhmm. So it is most likely a probe. I I so you can only know   if it didn't. So probido goes into a channel failure   or like   a a payment failure or it comes   out as a as a wrong cash. Right?   Yeah.   So   the these are the only two outcomes. And if you are not the receiver or the sender, you won't be able to tell about the wrong cash either. You will be only able to tell that data went through you, but it wasn't   paying.  

[02:45:08] Unknown:

Yeah. The the error reasons   that that co that go back to the sender are are onion encrypted as well. So the routers don't see the reason for the failure, which is a good thing, but it also means that you don't know   if it's a probe. And and I I wanna bring up Max Kaiser,   ask, like, why are they not collecting route fees? And and,   the reason is only successful payments,   you'll you'll collect routing fees from. If if the payment didn't succeed, if it didn't reach the destination,   even if it went through 5, 6 hops, those 5, 6 hops won't won't get anything unless   the destination gets anything. So there's been proposals   like being able to pay each hop   before you send a transaction   route a transaction, and then you route the transaction through them. But then there's the question, how do you even pay the 6th hop if you have to then   I don't know. It doesn't doesn't make sense. There's there's been proposals like that. There's 3 proposals where you have some sort of reputational   fees. Yeah. Yeah. You pay for a hold of fees. So that will help the griefing attack,   where where, you you know,   where just a bunch of in flight HDLCs are held for a long time,   which I think it's reasonable.  

I I haven't looked too closely at the protocols. I'm not sure if they're   taken seriously or not yet just because I don't think we've really had probing is definitely an issue. I know know a lot of people probe,   but I don't think it's malicious yet and but I don't I don't know. We haven't really seen as much, if any, channel jamming attacks,   happen yet. I know I know,   it's only a matter of time   until it happens, and, circuit breaker does its best. It at least, in my and from my understanding of it,   you know, it has that 5 HTLC limit where, you know, it'll stop routing payments out of channel after it hits 5 or something. So it at least allows you as the node operator to continue using that channel. So it's not locked up as far as you're concerned, but I think it it will stop,   payments being routed through you through that channel,  

[02:47:14] Unknown:

if if I understand that correctly. Yes. It will appear as as being offline, basically.  

[02:47:19] Unknown:

Gotcha.   So, yeah, I I back to Matt's point. I I don't think we've gotten to the point where we are,   operating in an adversarial network. I think for the most part, people are being honest even in even when there's been, like, the occasional force closures from an outdated state. I don't really think that's been malicious   yet.   I think it's accidental.  

[02:47:45] Unknown:

Yeah.   And I'm grateful that we're not in that adversarial environment yet.   And I I would just I would just add on there that,   you guys made good points.   But in terms of routing fees, like, I I don't think there's really much money to be made,   unless your name is Alex Bosworth,   until   we have,   like, really high on chain fees, and and we kinda saw that 2 weeks ago,   when the hash was rug pulled from us,   and fees went up.   All of a sudden,   like, the the amount of routing my node was doing went through the roof because who the fuck wanted to to touch the fucking chain? No one wanted to touch the chain.   So that that's when it really starts to pay dividends, but until then, as far as I'm concerned,   this mythical idea of running a routing node and making, like, a significant profit off of it is   is is just that. It's it's it's mostly a myth. Like, you you need you you bay we basically need on chain fees to go up for the routing notes to start making money, but as far as I'm concerned,   fees will go up,   even though everyone is grandstanding on Bitcoin Twitter right now and tagging me,   I would remind you that the mempool has not cleared yet. So,   don't jinx yourselves.  



[02:49:06] Unknown:

Yeah. The difficulty adjustment is before the weekend. Right? So it won't   either, at least, if I would bet. I don't I won't bet, but I bet I would bet. You're still better You're still better off with 2 sats per bite.   Yes. I had a couple of those done. Will die on this hill.  

[02:49:24] Unknown:

Katana already died on this hill even though he's grandstanding on me now. I literally the freaks think I don't notice. Are you kidding me? I get tagged, like, 25 times as soon as fees drop.   I wake up in the morning, I get, like, d I have Catan in my fucking   key based messages letting me know, like, everyone lets me know. So don't worry, freaks. I'm well aware that fees dropped. I'm happy for all you guys.   I'm happy for myself. Get your UTXOs in order.   I don't think it'll last that long.   Before we wrap up here,   we had   a fantastic   conversation   with Adam Back and Wiz last week on Liquid.  

Agreed. I know you guys are both lightning maximalists. Do you have any opinion on liquid? Have you used liquid at all? Is liquid a shit coin?   Should freaks care?  

[02:50:20] Unknown:

I can I can start that one? You know, I'm   I'm, I'm, you know, a lightning maximalist, basically, but I'm, I guess, I'm opening up to liquid a little bit. I'm I'm a little liquid curious.   I I like the aspect of,   well, I like the aspect of   the possibility of of lightning on liquid.   You know, if it's lightning, I love it. Right? So lightning on liquid seems pretty cool. I I have   some ideas about how to do, like, a liquid bridge where you or sorry. Liquid the Bitcoin lightning bridge where you can have liquid lightning and you can still interact   and pay and receive   through with with Bitcoin nodes,   on the liquid sorry. Bitcoin lightning nodes on on the lightning side. You can still interact with them by having a sort of bridge. So I I'd like I'd like tech. I'd like really cool tech, and I I like that aspect. So it but I was, you know, I was thinking I think yesterday even where, you know, it's interesting. Lightning is,   you can almost consider, like, Lightning   permission   to come in to the network,   as in, like, you have to open up a channel with a node and they have to accept it. Some some lightning notes don't accept it. Right? Like, they require   a minimal amount or maybe they just don't accept channels   themselves. But, like, sort of permission to come in and sort of permission to transact in a way because, you know, there there are   Lightning knows that route payments and they can deny payments if they wanted to.  

So it's   almost permission to transact,   but it's non permission to leave. At any point in time, you can close your channel and go back on chain. Well, like, liquid is kind of the opposite   in in those three regards. Like, it's non permission to come in. You can peg in easily.   From my understanding, I haven't used liquid yet.   And it's non permission trans to transact inside of it. You can send all the payments you want to any nodes, and and,   I believe that you should get mined,   by the,   by the,   custodians, basically. Federation. Federation.   Sorry.  

But it's it's permission to leave. You you you do need whether if it's a swap out,   whether for the tonic atomic swap or peg out or whatever, it is it is permission to leave. So I like, I I've just floated that concept in my head where it's sort of like lightning permission to come in, permission to transact,   non permission to leave, while while liquid is sort of the opposite of that.   Well, I'm wondering if you guys have your own   opinions to that specific   comment myself. I've this is the first time I've said it, so I don't know if it's completely accurate.  

[02:52:56] Unknown:

No. It's very, very, yeah, it's a very interesting   point and and very true also. I'm   I haven't used well, I do I do use liquid sometimes to kind of move   off ex an exchange which is supporting it temporarily before I gather enough to kind of go back to Bitcoin   because that incurs, you know, a a onetime   significant fee. And   in the meantime, I park in rather park in exchange or park in liquid,   which is much better for that. And then because of this, I did, you know, tried out a couple of things and and quite   quite excited about the privacy aspect of it.  

And the fact that you don't even need to do coin joints. You just you can do, like, just Self shuffle.   Self shuffle batch transactions   with even any kind of other asset   is is huge.   And in the meantime, what is the most important,   you are not exposed to the price of another asset because that's the bigger big biggest problem of of going   for for   a privacy use case to go into another chain. It's just, it's it's not a acceptable thing for me. Whereas I'm okay   with you know working some funds in,   liquid for a while. So, you know, they might as well be   more private and then, I mean, obviously, they would need to come out in, like, steps and that would need on chain transactions and, you know, be   but that's not an issue, really.  

So Right. I think that's that's the that's the best and biggest use case for it, and and I see that there is,   like, the site swap application is is pretty smooth. Now you can peg out on it as well.   And then   I have no reason why we wouldn't see any kind of either either,   swaps   as from, like,   so on chain   swaps   or,   going into lightning, which is which the I mean, that would be awesome for the same reason, you know, that,   and he's excited about it that, we could route between the two networks. I mean, that would be great.  

[02:55:15] Unknown:

But Yeah. I mean, I mean, swaps   solve a lot of the concerns over   like, a highly competitive swaps market kind of solves the concerns over peg out. I I have a a provocative statement that I've said in the past that's a little bit unfair, but I I still enjoy it, which is that liquid is ripple without the shit coin.   It is significantly better than ripple   regardless of the fact that it doesn't have the shit coin because you have confidential transactions because it's, you know, a sound protocol,   made by people who, like, know what the fuck they're doing.   But, to me, you know, liquid is and, I mean, there's 3 hours of of of me talking about this last week, but   to me I mean,   my main focus has been,   you know, stay humble, stack stats, and my faint main focus is freaks who are practicing that, which is what I'm practicing, which is what a lot of people are practicing.  

And I I think with Liquid, this idea   that you don't need inbound liquidity,   that you get some relative privacy,   over on chain, and that,   that on chain fee burden that we're talking about is way easier to calculate on Liquid than it is on Lightning.   You don't have to you just know, like, when I swap to chain, that's when I pay my on chain fee burden.   Like, it could be a single time. You know, if you consolidate on liquid and you pay a single time, I'm gonna pay that fee at that point, and I'm gonna do it when I want. I'm not gonna be forced closed.   That mixed in with the fact that it's super easy for wallets to implement in comparison to non custodial lightning,   because it uses basically all the same Bitcoin API calls. It's like if you're just integrating Bitcoin, test net, or something,   makes it so it could be a very   like, they have the whole trader argument and just whatever, like, I'm cool with that. I still think that traders could use private lightning channels between, like, huge   humongous   lightning private channels between exchanges.  

But to me, it's the stackers. It's it's the stackers that I care about, and I I see a use case for stackers. You just keep stacking into a liquid wallet, then you hit a certain threshold, then you go to your on chain savings. It kinda makes sense to me.   It's like custodial lightning wallets, like how we were talking about that  

[02:57:41] Unknown:

previously. Yeah. They're better to a degree. I I think my main concern and and   it's more of a concern for them than, I guess, anyone.   But I   I I just don't see   why they're not more strictly,   regulated, like, on on the peg out stuff. I mean, they're   essentially Right. When when they peg out, they're essentially a custodian for for   a point in   time until they actually withdraw to sorry. They withdraw either they peg out the to the custodian to Federation's   Bitcoin address. Right?   And for a given moment of time,   they own that Bitcoin and that Bitcoin address,   and then they will actually send it to the correct location. Right? So   at a point in time, they are essentially a custodian   of Bitcoin.  

Not so when they're in their federation of liquid, you know, that's I don't consider that custodian. They're they're federate.   But for that peg out point in time, like, I I just don't see how they're not regulators aren't gonna crack down. And I'm not instead of I'm not saying regulators should because regulators should just fuck off. But   it I I just don't see how it's gonna continue existing the way that's just like we talked about I've said that about lucky custodians.  

[02:58:53] Unknown:

Right. But I've said that about Chickcoins. Right? And that hasn't happened, and at least you have,   at least it's only the people who opt into that system. And then once again, I I would say that I think swaps   like, if we had a competitive swaps market, it doesn't even have to be atomic swaps. I mean, obviously, atomic swaps are preferable   because you don't have that custodial risk. Even if even if it's a single,   centralized atomic swap partner, you don't have that custodial risk because it doesn't   the transfer doesn't happen unless they provide the other piece.   But if we just had a competitive swaps market,   you know, like, right now, like, you have, like, SideShift or whatever, you know, like a ShapeShift clone without KYC.  

If we had more of those,   it kind of alleviates a bit of that concern. I I know it's not perfect, but it it alleviates it more than   I feel like the peg out's a little bit of,   you know, it's like, shitcoins don't have the peg in feature.   This has the peg in feature. Shitcoins also don't have a peg out user defined peg out, you know, and then they also have shitcoin price risk.   So it's like you gotta balance it all with, like, the relative trade offs of of what it's competing against.  

[03:00:08] Unknown:

Yeah. I I just wish that it was just atomic swap out only, and we didn't have to worry about this. They didn't I I like, I'm also concerned for them. Like, I'm like, I don't want you guys have to get in a situation of federation members where   regulators are cracking down. So I I wish I almost wish there wasn't this peg out feature that they had, and we just live with atomic swaps as as the option or people that do wanna take the risk and have this custodian,   swap like like you described,   nonatomic. Well, because we have this, you know, swap market. So I agree. I it's not like a major concern for me because I do know, like, probably atomic swap no matter no matter what with with someone.  

[03:00:45] Unknown:

It's just kinda more of a a concern for federation person. It's almost the same concern as Lightning. It's it's almost like it feels like there's not they're not operating in the adversarial environment that they should be operating in. They're not assuming like, the whole point of Bitcoin, the whole reason   the whole reason I'm so critical on Chickcoins is because they don't operate in an adversarial environment,   and then   I just feel like our 2 main layer twos, like,   developers aren't operating in that same environment either.  

[03:01:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, there's definitely been,   I think,   yeah, a lot of theories on whether a lightning node is, like, technically considered an MSP.   And while I think that's   fine,   you know, you you have to consider that that's   a possibility that that regulators try to attack.  

[03:01:41] Unknown:

Mean, I don't think that's fraud. Like, they can literally just make it illegal. It doesn't mean they can enforce it, but, like, they can just choose a law that says any, like, it was illegal to go to a restaurant in a lot of states,   this year. So, like, this idea that, like,   government is just gonna be   tread on our rights is a   very interesting concept.  

[03:02:02] Unknown:

Yeah. That's true.  

[03:02:05] Unknown:

Open Arms. When Raspberry Blitz gonna add liquid?  

[03:02:11] Unknown:

When, you know,   when people open an issue and make a PR.   You're that freak to make it happen. I mean, I've I've nothing, you know, I'm actually did,   so yeah. Just one thing I was thinking about. So there is   mainly spoke about liquid BTC, right, l BTC,   but there is actually,   you know, the main use cases like using it for tetra and stuff like that which is   is much   better to I mean, you know, I would be much happier to have, like, if I would happen to have, you know,   tether to have it on liquid rather than, like, in Ethereum or EOS or something. You know? And   then the and that use case has   far more regulatory concerns than actually,   like, swapping out of, like, liquid Bitcoin,   I think,   because it has, obviously, the fiat deposits and, you know, those kind of things which we have seen   playing out so far as well. So,   I think the liquid BDC   problem would be the last which would hit   the liquid federation,   I I I would think.  

Or is it   I mean, I'm not even sure that, for example, with Tether the Liquid Tether, it it that's has nothing to do with the Liquid Federation. Yeah. It doesn't even fucking matter because they're holding the fucking USD so they can move to whatever  

[03:03:34] Unknown:

chain they wanna move to. They They don't have to deal with any kind of and Liquid could get completely shut down and they'll just take your balances and move it over to Tron if they want. Oh, yeah. Exactly. So  

[03:03:43] Unknown:

okay. Okay. So there's it's it's not it's it's and this shouldn't be even connected to the federation because I can just download these elements   node   and can issue sets,   you know, at your so if I call it Tether then,  

[03:03:59] Unknown:

it will be that. Right. You can issue open arms token or whatever, and the federation could go down, and you could just move it over to Tron if you wanted to. Yeah. Like like our friend Kendall, you know, was handing out  

[03:04:11] Unknown:

actual candles for in return to his stock and see what's air dropping to us   in a, like, what was it, like a Munich hack day or something. You know?   And I was only 10 or so.   I have plenty of actually, I have a green wallet where there is, like, a couple of shit coins like this who   people just, issued it for fun and, you know, sent it to me and now they're there. Obviously, no value at all.   Yeah. Sorry. You had a question before.  

[03:04:46] Unknown:

Go on. Yeah. Go on.  

[03:04:48] Unknown:

I was gonna say, I'm not I'm not so interested in the   the token side of liquid stuff, but at least from I I think having at least an   access to a stablecoin   does make does make it a lot interesting, and then, you know, that definitely opens up the use cases for people that   that do wanna hold USD.   So the shitcoiners that do, basically. USD is just a shitcoin. Right? But I I do think having that access does bring a lot of pluses to it. I'm not so interested in the rest of the token possibility. So  

[03:05:23] Unknown:

No. No. I completely understand the concept of, black market US dollar.   I would never trust it. You know, Bitcoin's my stable coin. That's the whole point. But,   I I I get it. I definitely do get it.   Yep. So, I mean, this has been great.   Hopefully,   they didn't completely censor our live chat, and when we pull this off after the fact, I will still have the live chat.   In my archives, I will post the full video over to Telegram, Keybase,   bitcoin tv.com.   I'll probably leave up the broken one on YouTube just because the algorithm helps me in terms of having views already,   but I'm gonna play that one by ear.  

But just know that this is a restream bug is the reason that the chat isn't showing on the right if you're watching this live.   Restream, I have did pay you, like, 2,000,000 sacks for this year of service, so   I hope they treat me right. I'm I'm literally using every   feature that they have.   I'm like I'm a I'm very much a power user here. I'm showcasing your product, so   I I hope they get their shit together.   So before we wrap up,   I guess, neither of you are gonna join me in Miami.   Correct?   I'm not sure yet.  

[03:06:47] Unknown:

If I if I do, it's it's because I've caved in to FOMO. Caved into the FOMO, bro. Caved into the FOMO. Drive in. I am excited I am excited about the, like, what you guys are throwing for, like, the open source, workshop and everything. Like, that seems pretty dope. Well, thanks for pivoting for me.  

[03:07:04] Unknown:

The reason I bring it up is because I am running the free open source Dome, this open source centric area,   and   I I need to set up my agenda over there. So if you are going to be in Miami for Bitcoin 2021 and you're an open source contributor,   please reach out to me ideally through Telegram or Keybase, but you can also DM me through Twitter,   and I'll get you sorted. I I have some slots open over at the open source. Like, it's   like, we have all the node packages are all giving demos. Like, it's gonna be fucking awesome. We have Jamal James from Polar's gonna be giving a demo. We have SureDbits   giving a demo.  

It's just gonna be a fun time. We're right next to the the huge ass bar outside,   so I have a feeling it's just gonna be, like,   with, like, the nerds drink together. So I'm, like, I'm pretty excited for that.  

[03:07:55] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. If I would be there, I'd definitely  

[03:07:58] Unknown:

hang out there. Always, these are the best places to be. Anthony, I do have I I do have a quite nice Airbnb. So, like, if you need, like, a couch to crash on, like, I think we can we can work that out.  

[03:08:09] Unknown:

Oh, I appreciate that, bro. Yeah. No. For real. I'll I'll definitely still consider it for sure. I still have my ticket. So if if I do have the ticket?   Yeah. Well, I had it from 2019.  

[03:08:21] Unknown:

Okay. So that's the most expensive part. So, you know, you've already you can just drive in. Just drive in. Exactly.  

[03:08:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. No. But if I if I do decide how to go, I I will,   donate it,   you know, in some ways, whether for you guys to donate or or whatever. But, I do appreciate the offer. No. I'm definitely still gonna consider it. Well, what you should do is if you decide not to come, you should donate to OpenSats,  

[03:08:44] Unknown:

the new initiative,   that I launched alongside,   8 very dedicated Bitcoiners.   And then we could auction that off and and use it to fund open source dev, that'd be pretty cool. But I'd I'd prefer if you came, to be quite honest.  

[03:09:01] Unknown:

For sure.  

[03:09:02] Unknown:

Yeah. So that's opensats.org.   Go check it out. If you're an open source contributor and you're not gonna be at Miami, even  

[03:09:11] Unknown:

even if you're gonna be at Miami, either way,  

[03:09:12] Unknown:

go there. If you submit your project, you submit yourself.   We are going through them. We are vetting them, and they're gonna be displayed on the website.   It's basically   a culmination   of 8 months after bitcoindev list.com,   where you can donate directly to devs,   to their BTC pay servers where there's no custody involved.   In this case,   we are acting as a middleman, but we're a 501c3   middleman, so you get a tax deduction.   We're also giving you the option   to auto stack directly into us so you can,   do a, like, a monthly subscription where it comes out of your debit card or your credit card, and we will buy sets with it. We'll put it in our endowment,   and then we'll provide our grants out in sets.  

So so you're helping number go up as you help open source development,   and there'll be a general fund. So   we have we have a 9 person   board.   Like, this board is fucking loaded. It's fucking ridiculous. Like,   let me let me list it out. We have Janine,   that one privacy girl that does the the privacy in the month guide, and she's also the long term cohost of Bitcoin Digest   Block Digest.   We have CryptoDread from Jamaica. We have Elaine Oh, we have James O'Byrne. We have Catan,   who died on this hill waiting for 1 set per Biden now is flexing on me.   We have Lisa Nougat from Blockstream, who's been working on c lightning. We have Udi,   who's been a little shitcoiny lately, but he's keeping us honest, and we'll keep him honest. And then we have Ben Price,   who's former Visa crypto, and now   he's sick of of of the word crypto and is is coming into Bitcoin   hardcore. So,   it's a really cool initiative,   and I want it to be very plebs focused. I I like this idea of having   a bunch of plebs, you know, contributing 25, $50 a month,   so we don't have to rely on on these corporations, on these KYC exchanges to provide   grants.  

And it won't just be Bitcoin. It'll be free open source software that's tangential to Bitcoin as well, but that doesn't mean shitcoins. It won't be shitcoins. It'll be like   if there's an alternative to Tor that comes out or if there's, like, a secure messenger that's open source that comes out, like, stuff like that, we will also be supporting.   Because I think it's important for us to to take our sats,   that are increasing in purchasing power and use them towards projects,   that that further our goals, right, and and and and help make Bitcoiners more robust and more resilient,   against our enemies.  

So I'm pretty excited about that, and I'm very excited about the FOSS dome. So if you are coming to Miami, once again, reminder, reach out to me. Let's get you in the false dome. Let's make that shit happen.   I have to, like, make those decisions within, like, the next week or so. So if you kinda do that, like, let me know.   What else do I have?   I promised   Keto,   Keto Miner of Noddle.   He was here 2 weeks ago.   They're looking for a new support person.   This person will   request   they they need, like, an hour a day to answer support tickets,   and just, like, basically consolidate the FAQ and the documentation.  

It will be paid in SATs.   It's a global position, remote position,   and you will receive a a free 901 and a 9 o cloud subscription so that you can get comfortable with the product.   So if you're a Bitcoiner   that is looking to stack some more sets,   you like what Kito is doing, you like what Nala is doing,   consider reaching out to them,   and they will be posting more on their Twitter, but you guys got to hear about it first here.   With all that said,   grateful to both of you guys for joining us. I think this is a really great conversation even with the restream glitches on the right.   I wanna thank all the freaks, the ride or die freaks who are here with us live,   week in week out. You've been you've been fucking amazing, guys.  

21 fucking weeks.   Every Bitcoin Tuesday. Fucking love to see it.   Do you guys have any final comments before we wrap this up?  

[03:13:47] Unknown:

Yes. You forgot to ask me if Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.  

[03:13:52] Unknown:

That's very that's very true. Is Bitcoin designed to pump forever, Anthony?  

[03:13:56] Unknown:

Fuck. Yeah. It is.   That's all I have to say about that.  

[03:14:02] Unknown:

Wait one second. I gotta put this on the on the screen. It's like, There we go. Okay. Here he said, fuck yes. Open Arms already agreed that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.   Yeah. Where where can the freaks find you, Anthony? Do you want to, read read out your fucking horrible Twitter handle?  

[03:14:19] Unknown:

Yeah.   It is,   Cycripter,   c y c r y p t r. Sorry. I made it during the 2017   bull run.   Yeah. That's where you can find me or the article that I recently wrote, a bytesjourney.com,   slash lightning dash privacy. So you'll find me there.   Matt, thanks for thanks for having me on. It's it's been an honor. And, officially, Open Arms, thanks for helping with the article as well. You've been a lot of help.  

[03:14:49] Unknown:

And people can subscribe to your blog, right, by mail.  

[03:14:54] Unknown:

Yep.  

[03:14:57] Unknown:

Open arms?  

[03:14:58] Unknown:

Yes. I I just would like to, yeah, say thanks,   you know, for providing platform that, you know, has been great, and I really enjoyed having a discussion with you, Anthony. And, you know, thanks for writing this article, and, you know, I I I'm sure that,   you know, we'll follow and see more of your thoughts, and, you know, we'll continue to discuss this   thing called the Light Network.   Thank you.  

[03:15:22] Unknown:

Yes.   Thank you, guys. And and just to be clear, Anthony, like, I expect you to come on multiple times in the future.   This is this is just your first appearance of many.   Open Arms already knows he's on the hook. He's just gonna have to ghost me if he's not gonna come on in the future.  

[03:15:38] Unknown:

Awesome. Perfect. No. I'd love to. Awesome. I appreciate you all. And,  

[03:15:44] Unknown:

yeah, just enjoy the rest of your Bitcoin Tuesday. I'll see you guys next week.  

[03:15:50] Unknown:

Oh, see you guys.  

[03:15:52] Unknown:

Bye bye.  

[03:16:40] Unknown:

Look.   Seize everything you ever wanted.   One moment.   Did you capture it?   Just let it slip.   Love your freaks.   Not many of you last this long, so I'll just give you a giveaway.   Free dispatch hat if you say lose yourself in the sphinx tribe. Siddle dispatch sphinx tribe.   Stay humble, StackSats. I'll see you on Thursday for our HR, and I'll see you next Tuesday for the next dispatch.   Come to Miami. Check out opensats.org,   and, reach out if you wanna be a part of the Fosdome. Love you all. Peace.