Citadel Dispatch

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Join Matt Odell as he sits down with ErgoBTC & BitcoinQ_A 

EPISODE: 0.0.2

BLOCK: 663569

PRICE: 3619 sats per dollar

TOPICS: privacy, nodes, no kyc

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[00:00:48] Unknown:

Why Bitcoin matters for human rights in 2 minutes.   Today, cash is disappearing, whether it's in the United Kingdom or the United States or Sweden or South Korea, a smaller and smaller amount of our daily transactions are done with cash. We have to think about the implications   of a cashless society   where all money is digitally   centralized.   We have to think about what happens when we lose the financial privacy   afforded to us by paper money. We have to think about the new powers that states and corporations   gain as we trade our privacy and freedom for comfort and convenience   because what you buy and sell says more about you than your words.  

Consider,   when you make a transaction with a paper bill, the merchant doesn't know your name, your email address, your phone number, or really anything about you. By contrast,   when you make a transaction   with a phone or a wearable   or a swipe or one day a chip, you reveal an enormous amount of information about yourself,   which leads to control by corporations   and governments   and censorship   and surveillance   and gradually social engineering.   This is why Bitcoin is so revolutionary because it lays the groundwork for a peer to peer electronic cash system, where unlike   today's legacy arrangement   where there's banks and software companies and payment processors in the middle of every single digital transaction that happens,   instead,   nobody's in the middle of you and the person you are paying. Their payment processing is done instead by a global competition.  

And this is why in a world and in a future where we will have state money, we will have corporate money, Bitcoin is more like the people's money. It is a way out. It is an alternative.   Now less than 1% of us have used Bitcoin, perhaps 50 or 60,000,000 out of the 7 and a half 1000000000 on this earth. But if we keep growing this and if Bitcoin thrives,   humans will have a money that can't be censored by authorities, that can't be devalued by governments, that can't be monopolized by corporations,   that can't be easily mass surveilled, that can't be stopped by borders, and that can be accessed by anyone. And that's why Bitcoin matters for human rights.  

[00:02:56] Unknown:

Yo freaks.   This is Matt O'Dell, and you're listening to Citadel Dispatch.   This is episode number 2.   Welcome,   my my my two good friends that I have joining us this week, Ergo and Bitcoin q and a. What's up, guys?  

[00:03:14] Unknown:

Hey, Matt. Evening. Pleasure to be on.  

[00:03:17] Unknown:

So I've noticed something,   on audio.   It it's it's hard to follow for people   to know who is who.   So, Ergo, you first,   you know, give a little introduction to yourself so people can recognize your voice.  

[00:03:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   So I'm probably,   you know, kinda like a lot of the plebs. I'm not a developer.   I'm just kind of a guy   that sort of started doing his own research,   back when that was cool and acceptable.   You know, and I was kinda comparing some of the CoinJoin protocols.   I guess it would have been,   you know, mid last year.   And in the process, I stumbled on a multibillion dollar Ponzi scheme.   And from there, things kinda just took off.   Since then, I've this is basically finishing my 1st year with, the OXT research team,   that's headed by Laurent MT,   from oxt.me,   which is, you know,   basically a free,   block explorer that has a lot of the tools that most of the chain surveillance companies have.  

And so, you know, we kinda just take a look at, basically anything interesting that's happening on chain,   and and see if there's anything that we can't learn and and can't, you know, use to improve,   you know, make things better for everybody else. So that's, that's kinda it.  

[00:04:40] Unknown:

For those watching the livestream,   we I'm showing OXT Research's most late their latest report on the on the screen right now.   And then we have Bitcoin q and a.   What's up, dude?  

[00:04:54] Unknown:

Evening, Matt. Yeah. A little bit about me.   Class of 2018,   much like Ergo,   not a a developer or anything of the sorts.   Kinda just got bitten like most of us do.   Quite badly fell head over heels with Bitcoin and and what it what promise   it it sort of presents for the world.   More so this year, really sort of fallen down the privacy rabbit hole.   Been mixing with, a lot with a lot of the samurai guys who've who've shown me no end of love and and and taught me taught me their their wicked ways.   So yeah,   just trying to just got a passion for learning about Bitcoin really.   And you know, the observant among us will see,   that I've I try   and pay that forward and and put out some resources that help people understand   some of the topics a little bit better.  



[00:05:49] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, as the freaks know, this is my my my second go of this new show.   I'm trying to get more comfortable with it, especially since it's live, and we have no edits.   So,   you know, the the cheat code here is Bitcoin q and a is the Brit,   and Ergo is not the Brit.   And I'm Matt.   So the the really cool thing about Bitcoin q and a, I mean   and and to both of you guys, like, because I feel like you kinda came out of nowhere.   You, like, hit my radar because I'm so focused on on privacy in the Bitcoin world,   on Twitter   and in Telegram. And you guy you guys kinda just, like, blasted onto the scene, and you just kept producing.  

You know, right now, if if you're watching the livestream,   I have bitcoiner.guideup,   which is is Bitcoin q and a. Like, he's, first of all, a domain hodler just like I am and just   constantly   buys domains.   He he went ham on the dot guides.   So he has a he has a bunch of dot guides. Cheap, by the way, for anybody listening.   And Ergo just kept producing too. Like, he he Ergo is our resident chain surveillance   person.   So all of these chain surveillance guys, they go and they spy on all of your Bitcoin transactions,   but they don't talk to you about their techniques.  

And and what Ergo does is he does that same that same move,   but he actually   explains what he did and how you can you can   stop that in the future.   So cheers to both of you guys. Thank you for joining me. I'm very grateful to have you for the second ever episode,   and big cheers to all the freaks who are joining us. I'd like to think that Citadel Dispatch is a show that's hosted by the freaks,   and I'm just the moderator.   So to all the freaks out there in the chat right now, I'd like to know what you're drinking.   And,   you know, ergo, Bitcoin q and a, are you drinking with us right now, or what's up there? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm on a Beavottown Neck Oil, which is a,  

[00:08:01] Unknown:

IPA,   unsure of its origin. I posted a picture on Twitter, and, just like to give 6102 a bit of a shout out because, after I posted that photo, he he he asked me to send him a a lightning invoice so that he could buy my next pack of beers. So cheers to you.  

[00:08:18] Unknown:

I'm drinking just a little bit of Jameson tonight. Keeping it simple. Yeah. Garvit. I see Garvit in the chat. He's got some Jameson too. Shout out to Garvit. It's   a school night, so nothing fancy.  

[00:08:29] Unknown:

Yeah. And shout out to, T Dev,   for the Jameson as well.   I know he loves that shit.   So classy.   Yeah. So   the focus today is privacy. It's it's mostly privacy,   and then we have the the the way I wanna do these shows is is my idea is is we have a a a general topic. In this case, it's privacy,   and then we have 2 subset topics.   In this case, it's nodes   and our favorite k y c.   So I I I I think the first thing I wanna start with is is is is that preview video that I posted in the beginning,   to start this episode.   If you were listening, obviously, it was just audio.   That was our boy, Alex Gladstein, explaining why   it's   why we do this shit, why it's important that we have private money, that we have money that we can spend without people knowing what we're spending it on,   where your boss doesn't know   what you're spending your daily   transactions on and and and and where the bodega owner doesn't know how much you're making from your boss.  

And as cash gets eliminated, this is gonna become more and more important.   So,   I mean, I kinda I I don't really know exactly where I wanna start here, but I I I I I think   I wanna hear why   why do we   why is our focus on Bitcoin?   Why is our focus on Bitcoin privacy? Like, why out of all the things in Bitcoin, why is privacy the thing that you guys have both kind of bidding on to and and decided, like, this is something that you you wanna dedicate yourselves to?   And I I I think we'll start with Ergo here.  

[00:10:19] Unknown:

You know, it's   you you kinda hit the nail on the head with the the Gladstein video intro.   You know, he kinda does just a great job   of explaining the current state of affairs.   I mean, I'm kinda like probably a lot of people. You sort of   fall into kind of the libertarian,   you know, kinda gold bug kind of stuff. You know, I mean, at least I have years ago. That's I went through that kinda phase.   And you sort of come out, you know, the other side and you're like, man, shit is pretty fucked up.   And then you kind of get into, well, you know, what do we do about it? What do I do about it? What can I personally   kind of do to make, you know, my situation better and, you know, know, hopefully improve somebody else's?  

And that's sort of where kinda Bitcoin comes in, which, you know, for the   the, the white paper purist, the peer to peer electronic cash.   And, you know,   Bitcoin is pseudonymous.   It's not anonymous even though that was kind of a meme at the beginning of of kind of Bitcoin's history.   And as sort of, you know, the industry   and the, basically, the money involved has has grown up around Bitcoin,   The anonymous meme basically went out the window.   I mean, between the chain surveillance firms, the KYC exchanges,   It's not, you know, it's not quite that easy   to to to use Bitcoin   relatively privately anymore. That doesn't mean it can't be done,   but it's it's it's certainly getting better and at least better much better than it was when I first started paying attention, I don't know, several years ago.  

So that's sort of why I'm why I'm here.  

[00:12:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I think,   like Hugo said, you know, the the Gladstein video at the start nails it.   Just so people understand where I'm coming from.   Obviously, live in a western country.   You know,   the government isn't that, until perhaps 2020, isn't that overbearing,   and a and a dying need for for private cash right here and now probably isn't the top of the, priority list for most of the people in the UK or or indeed in the Western   civilization. But, you know, the there's there's been some examples this year   where private cash,   you know, namely Bitcoin,   has been used in in countries like Belarus where the protests are.  

People have been using that to circumvent government restrictions.   And and like I said, you know, it's not the easiest way thing to do privately,   without fucking it up.   But,   I think, you know, the the purpose   aside from it being probably the best money that we've ever had,   is that our ability to to   transact privately,   and to circumvent government controls or restrictions,   seems all too prevalent in 2020,   particularly in in certain parts of the world.   And I think we have to fight for that.   And I I don't think well, I think 2020 is a is a perfect example of   governments flexing their right to to oppress people,   be it,   be it COVID restrictions.  

You know, that that could be the tip of the iceberg. And I think, if people take their eye off the ball for too long,   like you said, Mark, cash can quickly very quickly be eroded.   And then what are we left with? You know, we're left with   the thought of central bank. This is currency.   Right?   Yeah. Exactly. Because it's it's only about time before it disappears.  

[00:13:57] Unknown:

Cash is fucked. Right? Yeah. It's just basically a matter of time. I mean, they broke cash. Right? Like, I I I don't know if that's gonna last. Right? I mean, it's basically been going on for years, the war on cash in quotes. Right? You know, restrictions on how much you can withdraw from the bank,   you know, all kinds of new reporting stuff that you have to do if you wanna deposit to the bank, you know,   structuring laws, all kinds of crazy stuff that that didn't exist, you know,   I don't know, a decade ago, 2 decades ago. You know, nobody really paid attention to that because it didn't matter,   and it wasn't affecting people's day to day lives. Now you go to the bank and you tell them you wanna take your money out, and they look at you like you're crazy. What do you mean you want, you know, several $1,000 in cash? They think you're nuts. It sounds pretty suspicious.  

Yeah. Yeah.   And, you know, it's a shame because,   I mean, at the end of the day, you know, money is kind of, a form of free speech. You know, who you get to voluntarily   interact with,   says a lot about, you know, kinda who you are as a person and   and,   you know, the the the, you know, the financial independence that you can have for you and and, you know, your family.  

[00:15:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I think what people don't realize   is I mean, I I don't wanna speak for you guys, but the way I view it   is we're being fucked on a 1000000 different   angles. Like, a a million a 1000000 different directions, we're getting fucked privacy wise.   And and Bitcoin is, like, a a reasonable way that we can start taking back taking it back in in, like, an actionable way. Right? Like, taking it back,   taking back some control over our future   without relying on asking   for permission or forgiveness or,   like, please, sir, will you give us some privacy?  

And   and and one thing that I really love about you guys, and and and I've been called a hypocrite about it in the past,   because I'm a public facing figure, is that you're both nims.   And I I I think that's a it's a very important aspect   about this revolution is that people are able to   express themselves   and and and provide value and show work,   and insights and influence this movement,   without actually giving up their real names. Like, I I both of you guys are my boys.   I confide in both of you, but I have no idea who you actually are   in the real world. And I I think that's super powerful.  

I I'd I'd be curious,   like, no holes barred,   like, hit us with your nim, you you know, your NIM show. Like, why why should people,   why should people use NIMS   online? Why should Twitter make sure that people can use NIMS,   that that does that everyone doesn't have to do this light k y c bullshit? You know, we see this k y c coming into Twitter itself. We have to do phone numbers and stuff like that because they're basically trying to get you to dock yourself.   Why is this important? Why is it important that people can, you know,   talk online and discuss online and broadcast online without giving up their their their true identities?  



[00:17:22] Unknown:

I I think, you know, ultimately, it's the ability to for for free speech,   without fear of of repercussion.   You know?   You see videos coming out of places like Australia all the time where somebody spoken out against the government on Facebook, and then you can see people, you know, the police are knocking down doors   and taking people away because they've they've spoken their mind against the government and, you know, it's just completely fucked.   So having a NIM online allows you to to speak freely and to spread the message that you want to spread to the people that follow you,   so that you can share information,   share ideas   that perhaps people don't like. But, you know, if you're behind the NIM,   you know, you've you've got as long as you're careful, obviously, you've got pretty much   no, recourse to that whatsoever.  

And I think that's that's obviously a powerful thing because   without free speech, what have we got?   Fuck all. We've got China.  

[00:18:26] Unknown:

Yeah. Q and a kinda nailed it. I mean, it's it sounds like a broken record. Just go on and on and just say, well, free speech, free speech, free speech.   But, you know, that really is kinda what it's about. Right?   You know, I   I I got suggested that I see 6102 is suggesting a book in the, in the comments. What is it? True True Name by Werner Werner Vinay, if if I can pronounce that correctly. He he intentionally picked a a a hard last name to pronounce because he got the pick of his name.   And I I I've been reading,   Conceived in Liberty, which is sort of Rothbard's   historical take on the American Revolution.  

And, you know,   when you when we kinda, like, had to read this stuff in high school or, you know, you're taking your mandatory,   you know, history class,   you kinda didn't get it. You know? And now that, you know, I've been, you know, around for   a good bit longer,   and the world is slowly going to shit,   you can kind of appreciate   what the people were going through. And you kind of see sort of a back and forth where, like, okay, the British government pushes back against, the American people or the the the governors of the Virginia colony push back against the people. And there sort of is this, like, ratcheting effect where   eventually   there's, like, a breaking point.  

And, you know, it was probably, like, a good bit easier to sort of do that kind of stuff back then because you weren't just surveilled 247.   You know? And now it's it's like as soon as you sort of take a misstep with with your identity online,   you know, you can sort of get prosecuted by not even just sort of the government, but, you know, the, the social justice warrior lynch mob. It's it's just   it's just like a total Orwellian dystopia, you know, that we've been seeing lately.   So yeah. I mean, a NIM a NIM protects you. It protects the people that you care about. It allows you to sort of say what you want to say,   you know, with with some level of privacy, at least against sort of like a majority of people. People.  

And that comes with some, you know, additional challenges. You have to kind of start from scratch. If you had a reputation, you don't have, like, a full name to sort of fall back on, you know, a name and a face to fall back on. You know? So, like, if you if you step out of line and you screw it up, then, you know, it's it's really hard to get that sort of trust back. So, you know, there's a little bit of, like, accountability for NIMs too,   where, like, you know, if you fuck up, it's it's just hard to come back. You know? So,   yeah.  



[00:20:58] Unknown:

You know, well, first of all, I see we have team Monero's in the comments. I we hear you guys.   We're not gonna consider him out, it's argue. It will it will be discussed,   but I'm just trying to stay on topic right now.   I we have this comment from Dreeman.   I don't know if I pronounced your name right. That's the beauty of NIMS is is you can you can make a name that's hard to pronounce. My favorite task that we   do of the Nodle team who just created a nim that's just, like, fucking impossible to pronounce just to fuck with people,   especially podcasters.  

He's asking me the easier question is why self docs? No great answers if you're just a pleb participating in learning and not trying to monetize your presence.   If my goal so I feel like this is directed at me. I'm the person in this conversation   that has been just picking up on my comments.   I'm I'm the person in this conversation that did a self docs.   I mean, if if if if the expectation is that I did it to monetize my presence, I'm doing a very poor job at it.   The Dan Helds of the world and the Poms of the world are monetizing themselves way better than I am. I've left a lot of stats on the table.   I I think, unfortunately,   the the the average person   trusts and they shouldn't trust me, and I say don't trust me, but they trust a person that is is self doxed more than a NIM. And I think there's a place here in the in the in the Bitcoin world   for people   who are public individuals   that help,   you know, bring exposure to the NIMs. Right? And this is one of the reasons why I launched Citadel Dispatch. Right? And this is one of the reasons why we're having a conversation here with me and 2 NIMs that I respect,   is because I think   that, otherwise, we're just gonna end up in a world where we just have all the suits,   and they're commanding the conversation because,   they naturally get more   influence, larger audience. You know, you end up you end up in the situation where and they don't talk about privacy. They just won't they will not discuss any of the important things because they're taboo topics. And I I I think it's really important that we have people that are publicly talking about these so called taboo topics.  

And I I I respect the risk, and that's why I tell people that they shouldn't they shouldn't self dox themselves unless they   think through it very carefully. And even then, you probably still shouldn't do it. Like, on some mornings, I wake up in the morning. I'm like, why the fuck should I be like, I shouldn't even talk to myself.   And then other mornings, like, I'm I'm just telling people that they're pieces of shit,   publicly on Twitter. So,   I I I think that there is there there's room for both,   but you should really question it. And people should realize that before I self doxed myself, I have had, like, a 1000000 nymphs, and I still have, like, 4 nymphs. So,   it's it's it's important that you you cover yourself. And then the second thing is,   I mean, what Ergo was saying about previous revolutions and stuff, I mean, the status quo used to be basically privacy.  

You know, you were hiding amongst the crowd, like, your non set was the colonial Americas or whatever the fuck.   Nowadays,   it's just the status quo is no privacy whatsoever. Everywhere you go, you just get fucking tracked. You get tracked everywhere.   You're you're sharing too much information.   You're connected to, like, 6 different social media platforms that are really surveillance, and you're just all over the fucking place.   And I there's a middle ground here. There's a middle ground here where people respect privacy, and we don't have this   this oversharing   in in in a way that that that like, I think people just aren't aware of the trade offs, basically.  



[00:24:47] Unknown:

I think there's also the security aspect of of everything as well. And one of the main reasons that I started out   with a NIM on Twitter was far before,   long before I went down the the privacy rabbit hole   was just, you know, worrying about, you know, if if I do eventually end up with a significant stash of Bitcoin,   and I'm I'm out there with my public name and and somebody's   somehow tracked my name,   finds out where I live, you know,   that's paying a big fat target on my on my back. So that was the the main reason that I did it. The kind of the privacy thing afterwards was just a nice bonus after I'd realized that I played a bit of a blinder really. And and and so I was, you know, really glad that I'd sort of taken that step really. So for anybody listening out there, I think, you know, if you if you're thinking about,   doing it and you wanna interact and stuff, a Nim is the way to go, 100%.  



[00:25:44] Unknown:

I love that. I I think the listener should know that Truman wanted me to know that he wasn't trying to throw me under the bus there. So,   okay. So, I mean, I so I I I think, you know, one of the things about Bitcoin privacy   that makes it so difficult is is that it is very much inter you know, connected to   to all of our other privacy elements. Right? Privacy on the Internet. Privacy on the Internet is difficult.   There you know, any anyone who tells you that you're gonna have perfect privacy while on the Internet is full of shit.   Someone who tells you that it's easy to use Twitter in a way that doesn't dox yourself,   is full of shit. It's very difficult process,   with caveats all the time. Like, I I mean, I know 6102 is listening right now or, boy,   there was a moment, like, 4 weeks ago where, like, all of a sudden, he deleted his telegram, and, like, he made a fuck up. Like, we all know he made a fuck up, but we don't know what the fuck up was. But he, like, made the fuck up, and he just, like, tried to just, like, nuke everything.  

You know? Like, you're going you're going to, like, emergency mode. So so in in in Bitcoin land, to be private   also interacts with all this metadata. Right? And you have, like, a a 1000000 different pieces of metadata that's all pulling together to to basically create the situation of this is   this is your Bitcoin transaction history. This is your interaction with Bitcoin.   The danger is with Bitcoin,   our transactions are on a ledger forever.   Like, if we're proper Bitcoin bulls,   like, this this   information,   our transaction history,   we sent Bitcoin to to this this address from this address   is is there literally forever.  

And if you mix that with the all the metadata that we're leaving everywhere else, all of a sudden you end up in a situation,   where you have where you have,   like, a a a real issue. I mean, you you you have an issue where where Bitcoin could be something Bitcoin can go 2 ways.   Right? It could go   it can go and and it could go 2 ways at the same time for 2 different people in the same existence,   where one person, it is their private money, and with other person, it's their surveillance coin.   And and I think people don't realize this. Like, the the the beauty of Bitcoin is that it's voluntary in nature, but the the the the negative of Bitcoin privacy is that it's also voluntary in nature.  

[00:28:20] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, I'd when I started looking at sort of on chain stuff   a while back now,   you know, I started from just really not understanding anything. You know? People would talk about how important privacy was and I didn't I didn't know what that really meant. Just, you know, privacy is good, you know, don't reuse addresses, and that was kinda like the end of it.   You know, then I started diving into sort of the CoinJoin protocols and, you know, but in the process, I sort of picked up,   you know,   what it sort of means and what's really out there and what's really available kind of on chain.   And I think, you know, people know, okay, you know, I I send Bitcoin to a pseudonymous address now. I think that that's that's pretty well sunk in.  

But what people, you know, sort of still struggle with is is, like, you know, if I wanted to send q and a, you know, a a $30 tip for making this very nice, you know, no KYC only guide,   I would reveal, you know, some of my UTXOs to him you know, him. He might not know they're from me unless I sort of told him that, but he would know that somebody had sent him, you know,   $30 worth of Bitcoin and,   you know, he could sort of infer what their balance was if they were doing, you know, kind of these simple spends.   You know, so   so, you know, the the the on chain stuff is is really tough to kind of combat. That doesn't mean it can't be done. And I sort of started off about this a while ago, but it's gotten, you know, significantly better with some of the CoinJoin implementations that we have now. It's, you know, it's it's sort of usable for most people.  

But that doesn't mean that you still can't screw up, and there still aren't kind of a list, you know, a a handful of things that most people, you know, if you just don't do those things,   you know, they're gonna be, like, way better off and you're not gonna have to, you know,   stress the shit out of yourself about it. And, you know, I mean, Matt's got the no KYC up. And that's, you know, really kind of the, you know, the the start of it all is is, you know, don't let the state or someone really anyone know,   you know, your purchase history.  

That's that's like it's not technically possible because somebody's always gonna know that they sent you coins, but, you know,   the the metadata that comes along with that, your driver's license, your passport photo, your whatever, you know, all of a sudden we wind up with a hack and now   the ledger hack   and and your your data's everywhere.   You know, so   I I think really, you know, no KYC is kinda where a lot of this stuff starts off.  

[00:30:51] Unknown:

I think that needs to be step 1, doesn't it? You know, if you're gonna,   try and do Bitcoin in a private way, like you just touched on this, there's there's quite a lot of pitfalls. Yes. There's absolutely, you know, a lot of tools out there that that can help,   help you regain some privacy when you're on chain, you know, or some of the the CoinJoin implementation,   Whirlpool.   Well, I think step 1, you know, if nobody knows that you've got Bitcoin,   you're you're literally starting   10, 15 paces ahead of everybody else because you you are   almost   well, there's only one other person, and that's your trade counterpart that knows that you own that amount of Bitcoin.  

If you sort of start stacking that with,   you know, throwing those stats through Whirlpool,   you know, with the  

[00:31:40] Unknown:

party could be Ergo.   And he could be chain analyzing you.  

[00:31:46] Unknown:

That's where Whirlpool comes in.  

[00:31:48] Unknown:

Like like I mean, one of the things I've been doing recently is is when someone sends me a tip, and I know it's the person who sends me the tip, I chain analysis them.   And, which is, like, super fucked up. I'm like, I appreciate all you guys who send me like, buy me a drink or whatever. Well  

[00:32:05] Unknown:

But but it's There's a lot of value in that. Realize, right, when they send you this payment that they're they're exposing this metadata to you. Yeah. And there's a lot of value in that. Like, I part of the problem when I try to discuss, you know, kinda chain analysis just sort of in general is that, yeah, people know, okay, privacy is important and the chain is transparent and all of this other stuff. But, you know, until you sort of really do it and so you sort of really look at, you know, what is really available on chain   and you do it with, like, some context,   you know, that is sort of like the the most important starting part, you know, some context. In this case, your context was the payment that you received. Like, I I got a donation from, you know, Pleb,   and let's see if I can't figure out what exchange he's using.  

I mean, that's that's basically, you know,   pretty easy, you know, for the most part. You know, you're maybe a few hops away from an exchange, and that's  

[00:32:58] Unknown:

it's it's not hard to find. What I've noticed is what most people do   is   and it's hard to blame them. It's it's like the cut mentality of of of privacy   is that they pay me from their exchange account. So I get a lot of, like, Cash App donations,   and it's because they know they know in their head. They're, like,   I will leak private information to Matt or whoever I pay   if if I send them a regular Bitcoin payment. But if I send it from this exchange account, then I'm it's it's like custodial privacy.   Right? It's like they're they're trusting they're like, they know Cash App knows, but at least Matt doesn't know what all my other balances are. Right?   And and this is what concerns me because I see this becoming the norm. I see this being, like, the oh, if you want a private payment, then you just pay with strike. You know, you just pay with Cash App.  

And   and and then the regulator   and the KYC entity knows,   but the the average external observer has no idea.   Right? So there's there's different nuances there to to Bitcoin privacy. Right?  

[00:34:05] Unknown:

I think that's half of the problem is that and I count myself in this, you know, probably a little under 12 months ago is that people   literally have no clue the amount of,   breadcrumbs that they'll leave on chain by their different spending habits.   You know, even if you got somebody who's you using HD wallet that doesn't reuse addresses,   you but if but they might be using a wallet that doesn't have coin control.   If they're sort of merging UTXOs from different,   sources,   you know, it might for somebody with ergo skills, it's it's takes,   5 minutes, you know, to tear that transaction history apart.  

But most most people are using this stuff. They just have absolutely no idea   the   of the different sort of, trails that they can be leading behind them. And I think that's one of the   hurdles that we've got,   in Bitcoin privacy is to to how how do we raise that awareness   of, you know, this everything that you do on chain   is completely transparent. And and so you need to be so careful as to, you know, using coin control, using CoinJoin to obfuscate that transaction history. But, you know, it's not easy at the end of the day, and and and that's something that I'm trying to get across to people is that just just think before you hit send. What is that bullet doing in the background?   You might be tripping yourself up.  



[00:35:27] Unknown:

I mean, look. I I think, ultimately,   I mean, this is one of the reasons why I think we've all gravitated to samurai,   is is that   is that there's a lot of nuance here, and if   you're   we understand we're never gonna be able to explain this nuance to the average user.   So so, really, ultimately, what we need is we need our apps that we interact with Bitcoin to to kind of automate best practices,   to try and make sure that   on on an average situation,   you're not leaking that much information, and that it's it's it's gonna work as good as it possibly can, or at least, like, you know, 90%   apart from if if you did critical thinking and and had to do it yourself.  

Because to expect people to actually   use,   you know, actually think about every payment they make is, like, is a fucking it's a hard task. Like, that is not an easy task even for people like us, I think.   And I think we know that more than other people because we try, and we try and think about it all the time. Like, I I   end up with UTXOs where I'm, like, I know what the fuck I'm gonna do with this UTXO. Like, I don't know what the fuck to do with it.   I'm just gonna leave that there, and I'll I'll I'll reassess it in 6 months.   So   so we need wallets to, like, actually do best practices. But before we get there, I just wanna go back to k y c because   k y c is fucking insidious. Right? And and   insidious. And and what we see is KYC is infecting our whole lives. Like,   people don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoiners don't realize. They think it's a Bitcoin issue. It's not a Bitcoin issue. You've just come to accept it in every other aspect of your life   where Bitcoin is the one aspect there where maybe you questioned it. Maybe you think, like, is it wrong?  

So I understand the power power of memes. The power of memes dictates   that there should be no nuance in a meme.   It's not k y c is bad. It's no k y c only.   Okay?   But what if a person is is receiving money into their bank account? They're they're   they're they're paid   via KYC means.   They're not paid in cash. They're paid in KYC means. Their check is directly deposited into their bank account on a weekly basis.   To that person,   I think, personally,   the the real the the the the the the scenario there is you reduce your KYC   exposure.  

You only have 1 KYC onramp that you that you've signed up for,   and you basically funnel your salary through that KYC onramp. Like, I do you guys disagree on that? Like, do you think that that I should basically,   let's say let let's use me as an example. Let's say I'm getting my salaries as paid direct deposit into my   my checking account.   Am I better off withdrawing that to cash and then going and trying to buy, you know, buy Bitcoin with cash or just withdrawing it and then going into Whirlpool   and basically withdrawing it as as CoinJoin UTXOs. Right?  

[00:38:30] Unknown:

I guess it depends. Yeah. It depends on it depends on what you wanna I mean, like, the way I sort of look at it is   it depends on if you're willing to be noncompliant   or not.   You know, if you're gonna, you know, stack stats and, you know, dollar cost average on your, you know, your exchange,   And,   you know, you're prepared. Like, you sort of know what the repercussions are. It's like, hey. I I sold my soul for the, you know, the the 2% markup instead of the 10% markup.   You know, you just just don't be, you know,   fooling yourself that, you know, coin joining is gonna sort of erase, you know, all that KYC history.  

You you can coin join and you probably should still coin join, You know, that gives you the optionality at least. You know,   at least it gives you an optionality to be kinda noncompliant.  

[00:39:25] Unknown:

So so   this is why I bring it up. Right? Because I respect the fuck out of you, and I I agree with you   that that I think the freaks don't realize. I think Bitcoiners in general don't realize   that, obviously, once you KYC, you're never gonna remove that record, you know. Ergo bought   50,000,000 sats. He bought this much Bitcoin.   You're never gonna remove that much record.   But but you can mitigate,   you know, forward privacy. And you can you can you can use CoinJoin, you can use Whirlpool, and you can you can make a situation   for yourself where   where your future transactions are in tracked. And   and and we we spoke earlier about the death of cash.  

Right?   If you were trying to remove 15, $10,000   from your bank account,   it is way more difficult to withdraw that as cash and then move into Bitcoin than it is to go into Bitcoin and go into CoinJoin.   So in a lot of ways,   the exit of the KYC system   is easier through Bitcoin. It's probably one of the reasons why they're so fucking anal about KYC on on Bitcoin on ramps. Right?   Well, is it one way? Is it one way out of KYC? Are you gonna Yeah. Yeah. So so so in. Right? Right. No. No. So my motto is so so what I think is is I think there's a place for a single exit ramp of fiat.   Right? That is KYC. Like, you pick 1 you you you pick a single   a single entity that you you're trusting with your KYC information. You you assume they're gonna give it to your government,   and you hope they don't   get hacked.  

And you pick that one entity, and it's just a single on ramp. It's it's just how you enter Bitcoin,   and then you go into coin join. I mean, hope is my favorite strategy. Hope is the best. Hope.com, you know, Michael Sailor. There you go.  

[00:41:19] Unknown:

What do you what do you got what do you got to say q and a?  

[00:41:23] Unknown:

Look. I think we've gotta be practical about this. There's nobody gonna gonna walk into Bitcoin and go, right. You know? I'm I'm gonna go straight to BISK.   Oh, shit. I need some I need some SaaS already. Yeah. I can't buy on Bisc.   Okay. I'm gonna go HODL HODL. Okay. They don't serve US customers. So, you know, as much I'm a big,   NoCo SEO advocate,   it's it's definitely nowhere near as easy as as,   downloading Cash App and throwing in some bank details. You know, I get that. And and that's the way that most people are gonna do it.   As long as people understand   the the the trade offs of, like you said, Matt, there there'll always be that record that, you know, Matt bought 10,000,000 SATS,   at this date,   and he withdrew to this address. You know, he might go and join afterwards and and get some great forward privacy,   which is good.  

You've also got to look at the forward   risks as well depending on your jurisdiction.   There could be,   issues around   future wealth tax.  

[00:42:29] Unknown:

There could be issues join itself   is obviously visible. Right? So if the coin join becomes illegal,   then you could have that issue as well.  

[00:42:39] Unknown:

I mean, you said this yourself. I mean, if coin join becomes illegal, we're all fucked.  

[00:42:44] Unknown:

Right. I think Bitcoin loses its value prop at that point, to be honest. Of course. If it becomes illegal in in the   majority of the developed world, let's say.  

[00:42:54] Unknown:

Yeah. For sure. Definitely.   And then you've also got the the the sort of,   I'd like to hope, less,   likely outcomes like a 6102.   The threat model of that as well.   Again, you know, if we wind it right back to the purchase,   if nobody knows you've got Bitcoin, you are so much more less at risk of these types of,   taxes or,   attacks on the network and and your personal wealth.   So,   you know, definitely not the easiest way to get on board.   But I will say that once you've done it once, it's it's nowhere near as bad as some people on Twitter would make you believe. Well, I mean, look. I love I love Bisc. Bisc is fantastic.  

[00:43:40] Unknown:

I   I I I I think that Bisk shares a lot of the issues that Bitcoin has   in that there's, like, a shit ton of nuance there. Right?   With with, like, this, you're a lot of the users are still   doing   bank transfers. Right? So they're doing KYC to KYC transfers.   They're exposing themselves to both their bank, the partner bank, and the partner that they're trading with.   So   really, like, the best economy is the cash in Bitcoin economy. Right?   I just don't think the majority of people, at least in the developed world, I I don't think the majority of freaks that are listening are getting paid in cash. Like, I just don't think that's happening.   So I think they're getting KYC regardless. I think they're already getting hit with the KYC.  

So then the question is if they're already getting hit with the KYC,   if they want to be absolutely   if if they're if they're good about it and they're not   exposing themselves as a Bitcoiner   publicly in any other way, then yes, by all means, like, figure out ways to convert that cash into Bitcoin,   locally and and make it happen, you know. And then you don't have any paper record of   it. But if if you're in any way kind of publicly a Bitcoiner,   in this super connected world that we're in and you have KYC funds already,   like, is there that much extra risk to come in via KYC if you if you then automatically throw it into to Whirlpool?  

Either of you guys.  

[00:45:20] Unknown:

First off, I I think kinda q and a   nailed it before. Right? You know, it's really hard to get people into Bitcoin kind of in the first place. Yeah. You know, they might   hear about the news of,   you know, the the price the recent price rally and and they might be you know, your friends might be hitting you up about,   yo, you're the Bitcoiner guy, you know, teach me to Bitcoin.   You know, and this sort of falls onto,   you know, the plebs, you know, and   some of you, you know yeah. I mean, it it is an asset to hold and it is going to appreciate in value. And and I don't think that there's, you know, there's there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I think that we all hope that Bitcoin will appreciate in value. But,   you know, knowing what you know, right, or the people that are, like, you know, in the chat, you know, here's here's a good one. What part is BTC pins, he's saying selling shit has been my favorite way to get KYC free Bitcoin.  

You know? So that's that's like the attitude that I just love to see.   So when you're like when you're teaching people about Bitcoin,   you're explaining it to your friends, I mean, the best way to sort of explain it is is, you know, digital cash. You know? And I've explained it to people that way that I didn't think would really get it at first, and they've sort of it's clicked for them.   You know, I've gone through the whole, you know, privacy shtick and why, you know, censorship resistance is so important. And and, you know,   I when when newbies hit me up now, it's it's not yeah. I mean, you gotta get you gotta get in. You gotta get in. You gotta get in. It's it's, you know, when you're ready, you know, I'll be here, you know, to help you along the way. And that's sort of one of the things that, you know, everybody else can do is is guide their friends and family kind of, you know, away from KYC   and actually act as a little bit of their you know, may possibly act as their Bitcoin dealer. You know? We're sort of getting to the phase where a lot of people have been around for a little while, and it might start to make sense to sell.  

You know, I'm gonna get chastised  

[00:47:13] Unknown:

for that. But They keep asking me. They keep asking me. They're like, Matt, you're my boy. You've been showing me Bitcoin. You love privacy.   Hit me with some KYC free sats, and I go, fuck you. You can't have me.  

[00:47:24] Unknown:

Charge a premium.  

[00:47:30] Unknown:

But, no, I do agree. I a 100% agree with pretty much everything you just said. And I I think, ultimately, what people don't realize is I think this is growing pains. Like, I think as more people have Bitcoin and as it develops farther,   we are going to have a more,   circular economy. Right? Like, we we will have, you know, Bitcoin rich people who are willing to spend Bitcoin and going out and and actively spending it and people earning it. Right? So you're not buying. You're not selling.   You're you're you're trading. You're you're you're you're earning it or you're you're, like, buying goods and services with it.   So I I think, ultimately, it kind of   mitigates itself in that in that regard.  

But, clearly, what we've seen from governments is, like, basically, the attack here   is they get as much information on as many addresses and many users as possible, and they they basically try and   process of eliminated out. Right? So if Ergo isn't doing KYC, maybe someone pays Ergo with the KYC   whatever that they know.   And they and they they try and, like, process eliminate you out. It is the biggest attack vector, and it it's just something that people should be absolutely fucking aware of all the time.   So Nick Ward right now is the commissioner of my Bitcoin Fantasy League,   and he's saying run a Bitcoin Fantasy League and collect league fees as your KYC free stack. I promise you, Nick, that I was the only one who paid you with CoinJoin   SATS, and every single other person paid you directly from their exchange or broker. You probably got majority and and probably Jack Mahler's himself could probably know the majority of the people who paid you.  

And and so, like so for you to say it's a KYC free stack, okay, I guess.   You know? But if you if you add that metadata of us all being in the same Telegram group, us all tweeting about being in the same fantasy league, us all paying   the addresses at the same time that got paid out at the same time,   you end up in a situation where it gets really dark really quickly.  

[00:49:40] Unknown:

Ricardo just,   made a comment about BISK in the chat. He said that BISK transactions are easily identifiable   and trackable, and there's a there's a lot of work to do in the BISK wallet.   Just one comment back from me on that one. I mean, you know, the whole point of BISK is that you're not tying   your,   real life identity to to whatever Bitcoin that you're buying.   Most wallets have a fingerprint on chain.   Most transactions have, you know, there's obviously,   common transaction fingerprints.   Coin joints have have have recently identify   and identifiable   on chain.  

I think you're kinda missing the point there a little bit and the fact that the whole the whole piece around BISK is that you're buying it and and not what okay. There's one person that knows your your real name, but,   the the point isn't to obfuscate that transaction on chain.  

[00:50:37] Unknown:

Well, on chain on chain, it's very visible. It's a Bisk transaction.  

[00:50:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly.  

[00:50:42] Unknown:

And and and and your deposit is linked to it. Right? Your security deposit is linked to it. So if your security deposit is a docs transaction, it's a KYC transaction,   that also gets linked to your best transaction.   Yeah. For sure. But I I I just think I think people I think it's important for people to realize that,   they think if you're a Bisc user, you don't need CoinJoin.   I think that's completely false.   I I I think as a Bisk user, you need CoinJoin for two reasons. I think you're protecting yourself from the counterparty. Like, your counterparty shouldn't know what you spend your fucking Bitcoin on,   and also you're you're protecting yourself from that fingerprinting. Right? Like, if we think that governments are gonna push back on CoinJoin usage, they're definitely gonna push back on Bisc usage.  



[00:51:29] Unknown:

For sure. I mean, 6102, you're just hitting the nail on the head there in the chat. I mean, the ultimate is is to use some NoCoIC   Sats as your deposit.   If you can't hold of any NoCoIC   Sats, use a a post mix UTXO from Whirlpool,   to fund that security deposit will be the 2nd best option there, really.  

[00:51:48] Unknown:

Yeah, Brian. That's what you're you're remixing UTXOs are for. So maybe this is that.  

[00:51:55] Unknown:

He's he's responding to our boy, Brian Harrington, who said, I almost thought about it, but I didn't wanna break my UTXOs that we're remixing.   I think he's talking about Fantasy.   I think he paid with strike. I think he's admitting he paid with strike for Fantasy. It's okay, Brian. I know you did.   I mean, I don't know you did because you paid Nick, but I just assumed you did. It's okay.   Once in future saying to bust for BPC. Yes. I agree. I   this is what I'm saying. Like, I I I think that ultimately,   a lot of these problems kinda solve themselves when we leave this situation where most people are are are entering on an on ramp or an off ramp,   where it's a circular economy. But still, you're gonna need Heavy CoinJoin. You're gonna need Lightning usage. I mean, I know you guys. So I I think Bitcoin q and a is a little more bullish on on Lightning, but, ergo, you're you're very bearish on Lightning. Well,   is Lightning a a privacy,   a prospective privacy thing we should be be looking forward to, or is it just all bullshit?  



[00:52:59] Unknown:

Well okay. First off, and I'm gonna lose everybody by saying this right off the bat, is that I have never used lightning.   I just can't be bothered.  

[00:53:09] Unknown:

Oh, freak. Should I kick him from the chat? Yeah. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get  

[00:53:13] Unknown:

muted.   It's just too much work, too much headache, you know, from what I can tell.   And, you know, then we get into the just use lightning because that will fix everything,   kind of mentality. And I know not everybody kind of thinks that really thinks that. Some people just sort of throw that around, but kind of argument around on Twitter.   Damn. Yeah. He's the fan.   This comic is great. A lot of people throw that around, like, you know, if we just bolt this layer too on top of the base layer that doesn't have the privacy, then we'll be fine.   And there was a paper not too long ago about, you know,   whatever,   I actually don't know who wrote it. But anyway, you know, they they they boiled it down to something along the lines of, well, l m big still controls the majority of the channels. And because all we know we know which clusters are are spending into the channel openings, we can figure out a lot about what's going on.  

And,   you know, that's not really encouraging. Right? It sort of still, you know, really kinda paints the picture that, you know, the on chain privacy is still   still matters. It's still going to matter. It's not gonna just go away. You know?   So, you know, that's that's kinda where I'm at for now, you know, and maybe at some point, I'll give it a shot,   You know? But I'll let q and a maybe talk about his experience because he's actually used the thing.  

[00:54:33] Unknown:

Yeah. This is where I come to your rescue a little bit.   I've got 2 lightning nodes.   I'll be open and honest. The only time I've ever used it for transactions   is,   donations   or feeding chickens or,   just stuff like I I or I bought,   what's the,   the magazine, not Citadel 21, the other one? 21ism.   I paid for 21ism on lightning.   But,   ultimately,   I think, like Hugo said, on chains where it's at, I mean, I just don't have a need for   regular lightning channel   sorry. Regular lightning payments.   I'm a bit more bullish, like you said, Matt, on on the promise of   of the future of, you know, what Bitcoin can do for for sorry. What Lightning can do for for for layer 1 in terms of scaling.  

But, ultimately, it's tied back to layer 1. And so I think it's not gonna be a silver bullet for for privacy.   Yes, you can run,   lightning nodes over to all. You can have private channels. I think they're both good solutions, but I think it's far too early to tell really,   in terms   of how private it's gonna be and and whether there's any tools that can be built on top of that   to to further that sort of,   that strain of privacy for for users, really.  

[00:56:02] Unknown:

I mean   so,   like, I wish the space I dedicated myself to didn't have some like, dedicated myself to education, didn't have so much fucking nuance with everything.  

[00:56:15] Unknown:

Bingo, Paul.  

[00:56:16] Unknown:

It's fucking annoying   that we have to deal like, especially now with the the the price pump,   we've had   an insane   an insane amount of of newcomers have come in, and they're asking me, like, all these, like, little questions about, like, UTXO management and all these different things, and and it it makes it way more difficult. Like, ultimately,   people should be able to download an app, and it should be easy for them.   There's an interesting aspect with Lightning.   With Lightning,   the spender has more privacy than the receiver.   The spender has significantly   more privacy than the receiver. The receiver   has a a static   basically, a static pub key that that describes them. So if your static pub key gets leaked on the Internet somewhere,   it gets connected to you. Any invoice that gets paid with that static pub key,   is you. They know it's you.  

On the sending side, though, there's way more privacy, and it's kind of thrown on its head with custodial wallets for whatever reason. Like, we're supposed to be against custodial wallets, but for custodial wallets,   you you have you you get, like, a little bit extra privacy there.   But,   yeah, I I I I I think, ultimately, when it comes time to spending,   I'd oh, I almost always prefer to spend to a lightning invoice.   I don't know how to receive privately. I don't even know if it's possible without custodial,   Lightning right now.  

You know, in in terms of, like, being a content creator, like, tip me. Right? Like, right now, if you wanna tip me, you tip me through tip and not me. It's custodial wallet. I don't know how you do it in a in any kind of private fashion.   I guess you could do Keysend, but you're there's no there's no privacy whatsoever there. Right?   So I   so I struggle with that aspect, but but another aspect on the sending side is that you don't have that toxic change. Right? There's no toxic change when you when you spend from a a lightning invoice.   So you don't have to deal with that change on a future date, which is one of the things that I think a lot of us have to deal with all the time. Right?  



[00:58:30] Unknown:

Yeah. For sure. One thing I've wanted to ask you, Mark, actually,   obviously, with the recent price pump and and slightly more sustained   higher fees,   I I would have expected   to see   total capacity in the lightning network increase.   I haven't seen it yet. Obviously, you know, I know what you're gonna say is it's all public it's all private channels.   No. No. But you would have expect   you would have expected to see a bit more of a jump,   in in the public capacity, and and it's still over just over a 1000 BTC.  

[00:59:02] Unknown:

Well, it pumped in in fiat value.  

[00:59:08] Unknown:

Fair. Fair.  

[00:59:09] Unknown:

It pumped it pumped significantly in fiat value.   Same with same with Whirlpool. Same with the unspent capacity in Whirlpool.  

[00:59:19] Unknown:

Yeah. That's pumped in BTC value as well. Have you seen it today? It's pumped in both.   Shit.  

[00:59:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, look. I I I don't think anyone's using fucking lightning.   And I don't I don't pretend that's that's, you know,   any any other case there, you know. I I,   I'm I'm   maybe more technical than most people, but I'm not a very technical person.   I mean, the freaks will laugh, but I'm not a very technical person if you compare me to, like, a Bitcoin people.   But   my way of learning is by getting my my feet dirty, you know, getting my hands dirty.   And so I'm running one of the largest,   onion only routing nodes,   on the lightning network.  

I lose money every day.   Like, I I don't make any money on there's no like, I see   you when you route through a node on Lightning,   you trust that node. They see payment came from this node sent to this node.   So I see those payments.   I'm one of the biggest lightning node, onion lightning nodes,   and there's just not much activity. There's, like, there's   there's activity. I'm I'm not saying there's no activity. There's definitely activity, but there's there's there's not that much activity, and I think that's fine. Like, I you know, it it it is what it is. Like, what right now, like, what the lightning public capacity is, like, $25,000,000.   Like, that's fine. Like, what would how you know, how much you how many low value transactions are really going through in general that need to be served?  



[01:00:56] Unknown:

Fair. Fair. What you what's your thoughts on   I've got this feeling that a lot of lightning usage is gonna be custodial going forward just because, you know, the very nature of it is it's smaller value transactions and that people are just gonna be okay with that.  

[01:01:10] Unknown:

I mean, look. I think the the real genius of Lightning   is interoperable,   custodial wallets.   Custodial wallets that that can easily interact with each other and pay each other.   I think the the main issue is, first of all, no one can talk about it because if you're running a custodial wallet, you're just constantly in government crosshairs.   And then second of all, you're constantly in government crosshairs.   So if if but but then again, if we were in a situation where you weren't in government crosshairs, you wouldn't need Bitcoin to begin with.   So so, like, we're I I think what what the reality is gonna be is we're gonna be in a situation where you're in, like, quasi custodial situations,   which is I know I mean, I know Ergo hasn't used it, but I think Bitcoin q and a has used it, like Breeze and Phoenix.  

Right? Have you used them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So I wouldn't say they're completely self custody.  

[01:02:06] Unknown:

No. It's, I was talking to somebody about this the other day. It's a bit of a blurred line, really, isn't it? Because, you know, it's your seed. You're you're in control of the keys, but they're managing the channels for you.  

[01:02:16] Unknown:

There's always been that thing in the back of my head of They could steal your money. If they wanted to steal your money, they could steal your money. Yeah. Yeah. So they're legally self they're legally self custody, though.   They they probably can't get hit by regulators   for custodial   wallet usage. Right?   That's the key. That's what people don't realize. That's the key.   They're getting around that issue.  

[01:02:40] Unknown:

I think they they they provide a a good sort of,   gray area where, obviously, they're the easiest way to onboard into lightning.   But they, like you said, they they they are   ultimately   just about custodial   non custodial, should they say.   But I think it could be a good gateway drug into getting people to do lightning, what I would consider the prop the proper way. But, obviously, that then turned into an absolute clusterfuck   of channel management and etcetera, etcetera. And that's why ultimately   most people aren't doing it   that way yet.  

Hopefully, that changes in the future, but I think we're a long way off from it yet.  

[01:03:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, so I'm responding to Huey Dane here who asked how come BlueWallet doesn't get attention from regulators for being a custodial wallet is we don't talk about it because we don't wanna blow up their spot.   So thanks for asking.   Phoenix is great. Look, I I think Phoenix is great. I just I I Phoenix is a fantastic wallet. They can just take your money if they wanna take your money. But also at the same time, like, if I had argue in front of a court of law, I could probably argue that they're not custodial.   And I I think there's a there's a distinction there, and that's basically what the Lightning ecosystem is going for right now,   because you have to balance UX,   which is, like, this trust element versus,   basically, regulators fucking you.  

If if if we didn't have to deal with regulators, I think really the Lindy thing that would happen   is we'd end up in a situation where we had a bunch of trusted custodians   that weren't taking KYC info.   But we don't have that situation because regulators force the custodians to take KYC info. Otherwise, they get seized or shut down or whatnot or whatnot.   And and that's one of the things that I think people don't realize with Bitcoin is the early days of Bitcoin was dominated by custodial services.   And almost this this idea that we've switched over to to basically self custody,   as a status quo if you leave a regulated platform,   It's basically allowed people to get identified way easier. Right? Because it used to be, like, if you withdrew from, like, a Coinbase or a Mt. Gox or something,   yeah, like, maybe you withdrew into Custodial Wallet. Like, maybe you didn't even control those UTXOs. Maybe they were just getting sent around by someone else. But now that they've stamped those guys out,   it's almost like they just assume it's it's you.  



[01:05:11] Unknown:

Yeah.   I completely agree. I think I mean,   curious to know,   you mentioned that you you run one of the biggest,   onion   routed nodes on lightning.   Is that on a Raspi blitz by any chance?  

[01:05:27] Unknown:

No. It's,   shout out to Askwo who's here,   and Kito. It's on a nozzle,   which I think is a Roc 64, the first generation nozzle.  

[01:05:38] Unknown:

The OG?  

[01:05:40] Unknown:

Yeah. The OG nodle too. It's a fucking   $250,   $300 box, fucking one of the largest routing nodes on lightning, so props to them.   Were you gonna fud raspi blitzes?  

[01:05:53] Unknown:

No. No. Not at all. I'd run 1. I love it.  

[01:05:58] Unknown:

I mean, because there's the Luke there's the Luke junior concern, right, that they're just all backdoored?   I'm not even gonna comment on Luke's risk. So that's not where you were going, just to be clear? No. No. No. I was just I was genuinely curious. Oh, okay. As to which one you what platform you were running on. No. Yeah. I mean, that was the Nava o g. I mean, look, I was a lightning bear. I was a lightning bear, and then I became super lightning bullish. I opened way too many channels, and then I became a lightning bear again. And now I'm, like, cautiously optimistic on lightning.   I've gone through, like, all the phases. I've gone through a boom I've gone through a proper boom bust cycle of lightning.  



[01:06:38] Unknown:

I know what you mean. I go through phases of, you know, I make a couple of transactions. I think, fuck. Yeah. This is pretty good UX. And then I remember what I had to go through to set up channels and get them balanced and etcetera, etcetera. And I'm thinking most people ain't gonna go through this. They really aren't. So I I kinda go up and down   on lightning.   I think we've lost Ergo, by the way, on on the lightning chat. Well, you guys were on a roll. I didn't wanna interrupt.  

[01:07:06] Unknown:

At the risk of a clunking gear change, let me just 6102 asked a couple questions.   The paper link that you sent, that PDF, that was not the paper I was referring to. I will find the one that I was referring to, and I'll get it to you.   And he asked a question about   volumes for custodial tumblers.   Will they institute, you know, something along the lines of a a, you know, an hourly volume limit?   And first off, thank you for reading   our OXC report.   I know it's it's quite a tome.   But one thing that I don't think we really mentioned in the report is that the custodial tumblers, they they at a very high level, they sort of act as kind of a swap service where   they basically take, you know, different UTXOs   controlled by different users. They go into their sort of custodial spreadsheet. And on the way out, they they basically just say, okay. You know, user a's coins are now user b's coins.  

And so user a,   gives his history to kinda user b.   And people or custodial tumblers kind of run into problems when,   they send in too much volume.   A single user sends in too much volume. They drain the available liquidity,   and they start getting their own coins in return. And so 6102   is kind of getting at, hey. You know, shouldn't they just limit the hourly volume, you know, to to kinda keep people from getting their own coins back?   And I guess they they kinda don't wanna do that. Right? It's a custodial service. Imagine telling someone that they can't get their coins back. They'd probably, you know, freak out. So what they do as kind of an alternative is they they have their own, and I'm using scare quotes here, reserves   where when, you know, whatever available liquidity they have gets low, they'll inject their own liquidity so that a user doesn't get their own coins back.  

Except that chip mixer doesn't really   appear to do that. So that's a really long rambling answer to 6102's question.   So 6102, let me know you got that. And, otherwise, you know, both I'll see you in my DMs.  

[01:09:13] Unknown:

Well, I mean, part of the reason why I did this was so that 6102 could be a host.   So that's fantastic. Yep. Yep. He was listening. Rate limit on the way in, he says.  

[01:09:23] Unknown:

Yeah. But how are you gonna do that? I mean, you give somebody a static address,   and how do you how do you rate limit lightning.  

[01:09:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Oh, you could do it with lightning. You could I mean, no. I mean, this is the thing that regulated companies think about. Right? Like, lightning is beautiful in that respect, is that you can choose how much people deposit into their wallets.   I know. That's a negative. I'm just saying. I'm just stating the fact. Like, people don't talk about this. Like, it it is one of the cool things about Lightning for, compliance, bro, is that you can choose how much gets deposited. With OnChain Bitcoin, you can't. You give an address, they just deposit.  

[01:10:00] Unknown:

Or you don't give an address and you still get a deposit. You get dusted.  

[01:10:04] Unknown:

Right. But you know what I mean? Like, you you you provide you provide the differences between an address versus an invoice. You can't overpay a lightning invoice. Well, I mean, I don't know if you know that. You can overpay a light you cannot overpay a lightning invoice. Today, I learned.   Yeah. So so so for compliance pros, like, Lightning is really nice in that respect.   You can you can both pay a a a pre whitelisted,   pub key node.   Right? So, like, you can you can choose who you pay, and you can also choose how much money comes onto your platform.  

[01:10:36] Unknown:

You know, I I thought if only I knew enough about lightning to really comment, but I Yeah. Try to channel my energy a good critic unless you use the thing, man. I know. I know. I can't. But if I could just channel my inner tdev who would say something along the lines of, you know, lightning was built for kind of custodial solutions, and it would just be basically, and I told you so. Well, I wanna say that I had the 1st Citadel dispatch ever was with T Dev in a bar in Manhattan,  

[01:11:00] Unknown:

but it just wasn't recorded.  

[01:11:03] Unknown:

So Did you get did you get a good lecture? Did he did he the lost tapes.   And you didn't that's a shame.  

[01:11:11] Unknown:

I remembered enough to feel ashamed in the morning. Let me put it that way.   So, I mean, we brought up your OXG research,   report, which I think is is fantastic.   So I I think we should definitely talk about it. It is available for purchase right now, but it's also gonna be available for free in a couple days,   which I think is a really cool business model.   I like that idea.   I appreciate the work you do.   I do have the actual report up on the thing. So there is a little spoiler there in terms of of what you can see if if you   once you view this report.  

One of the things that's interesting to me, I think,   is that is that the people on on Bitcoin Twitter that talk about privacy will talk about,   you know, who knows what information,   like, what is the trusted relationship there? Like, it needs to be perfectly trustless in order to be a a practical privacy solution for Bitcoiners.   But if we look into it, like, the majority of   of of private Bitcoin usage goes through straight up custodial tumblers.   Where not only are you trusting them with your full privacy, you're trusting them with your fucking UTXOs. Like, you're trusting them with your Bitcoin. They can steal your fucking money   and they can dox you.  

They get the majority of volume, like, joint market, Wasabi, Whirlpool   get nothing. They get negligible amount of volume in comparison to these custodial   mixers.   Let's talk about that.  

[01:12:49] Unknown:

So for the the people that, you know, haven't gotten the chance to read it yet,   you know, most of these reports, they're they're fairly technical.   But, you know, I'm I'm trying to get to the point where I can hopefully distill this down for for kinda most people.   Did I lose you guys?  

[01:13:09] Unknown:

Let me know. Here. I'm listening to everything. I go everything got quiet. I'm like, okay. It's all alive.  

[01:13:14] Unknown:

So,   you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about kind of what, you know, Bitcoin privacy and quotes used to look like. And I I hinted on it a little while ago about,   you know, kind of the custodial tumblers.   And, you know, we kinda get guilty of of   blurring the lines. We just say mix, and mix sort of starts to represent coinjoin and tumbler. And I hate that. Yeah. I know. And it and it's important to to keep them distinct.   But, you know, I get lazy   and people will hate that. But,   so   in the report,   what we did was we tracked, you know, the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen from the KuCoin hack,   KuCoin,   Hong Kong Exchange in September.  

As they sort of made their way through,   you know, basically,   kind of a 3 sort of overall mixer process. You know, they use chip mixer, which is kind of one of the oldest,   custodial tumblers.   They used Wasabi. Well, they apparently used Wasabi, at least at first glance, and they also used, another custodial tumbler called Blender.   And, you know, Matt brings up kind of an interesting point about sort of, you know, the meme of, you know, kind of custodial Tumblr volumes.   And at least as a part of this report, we, you know, in order to kinda try to attempt to track the stolen coins across both mixers, We had to,   spend a good amount of time and, you know, first identify them as best we could, identify the volumes that they were doing kinda daily.  

And,   you know, the interesting thing is is to kinda see sort of the average amount of Bitcoin that these sort of custodial tumblers are are doing every day.   My intuition was that it would have been higher than what kind of came out in this report.   And what we sort of found was Chip Mixer, which is one of the oldest and most recognized, was around 85 bitcoin a day in average over the last several months.   And Blender, which is   another custodial Tumblr, was I I think it was an average around a 115 Bitcoin a day.   And so I think Blender probably has some of the higher volumes just kind of in general.  

And if you look at that kinda compared to some of the the the noncustodial,   the the the the coin joins, the traditional coin joins,   the the the volumes, you know, aren't as different as I would have thought,   which is kind of a good sign.   I know a lot of these sort of older custodial tumblers, like this kind of   network effect is just really die hard people. They you know, darknet market users are swapping their coins and thinking that they're getting, you know, some real privacy. And that kind of thing just sort of really dies hard, but,   you know, it it was it was a a good experience to kind of, you know, spend the time and and identify some of these,   these services because we talk about them, but, you know, nobody's really spent the time to to, you know, even look at them.  

Let me see. Oh, 6102 is asking, how did the chain surveillance companies miss the blender tumbler?   And so in the report for, you know, one of the first times,   I think we have identified   Blender,   which does more volume than chip mixer. Chip mixer is   kind of really   apparent on chain because of the the denomination outputs. Sort of has a coin joined fingerprint.   So it's very easily recognized. It was recognized in the Twitter hack. It's been recognized in in other kind of chain surveillance company reports or blog posts or whatever. And so the, you know, 6102 is asking, well, how did they find Blender?   Blender doesn't have that   that coin joint fingerprint. It doesn't have the fixed denomination outputs,   whereas Chipmixer has 0.001,   0.002,   0.004,   and so on. It's very apparent on chain. And Blender is less so,   but it does have somewhat of a fingerprint.  

And I think the reason that many of the chain surveillance   firms miss this is because of the transaction graph tools that they use.   They,   from what I can tell, from sort of the the public displays that they put out of their transaction graphs, it's unclear kind of   the the true relationship that the transaction graph is trying to show, whereas OXT   is very pure, and it shows the only the relationship of inputs and outputs in kind of a transaction. So we identified   Blender because we saw multiple   outputs from a previous transaction getting used in the following transaction, which if you're kind of using the pure transaction graph, stands out.   So what does he say?  



[01:18:06] Unknown:

Surprising they're not pushing funds through all of these tumbling. Isn't it great that we had we basically have 6102   is on podcast format, by the way. Yeah. It is. It is great.   6102 said it's surprising that they are not pushing funds through all these tumbling services, to be honest.   By the way, I would I would like to say that 6102, it that is my NIM, so it's pretty impressive that I'm typing these questions while we're live.  

[01:18:30] Unknown:

Okay. Continue. We have we have, been mixing now.   So, you know, the the report we we   do a pretty decent job of nailing down of the 1,000 Bitcoin that were stolen, you know, doing a good job of tracking kind of I think it was 750 or so. Let's just call it 75% on the way out.   And so 6102 is kind of alluding to, you know, it's surprising that they're not, you know, pushing funds through all of the tumbling services. And,   you know, it kinda seems like   if I had if I had to guess what we were sort of looking at here is it's a single entity that's using Chip Mixer and Blender   kind of at the same time.  

And I know there are other custodial tumblers, You know, we haven't looked into them sort of significantly, but, you know, we kinda can. But I really think that chip mixer, blender, and there's maybe one other one that does the majority of volume, And they they hit both of those, you know. And if there's really only one left, you know, the kind of question is, you know, where do they go next?   You know, we did kinda get a little bit of a hint from the report that it looks like they were kinda monitoring their liquidity.   I kinda mentioned a while ago, chip mixer, you know, the point of chip mixer or mixers in general is to swap, you know, users' UTXOs.  

And at one point, their in their chip mixer usage, they got their own   original deposits back   as their payout.   And that was when they stopped. You know, that was when they stopped using Chip Mixer, and they moved on to Wasabi or, you know, Blender in this   case.  

[01:20:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, so 6102, we completely read him wrong. He was asking why the chain surveillance companies are not testing out all the tumblers they can. Well, they probably are, 6102. They probably are. I mean, I've I  

[01:20:12] Unknown:

I've sent coins through tumblers just, you know, to see what I could see. And, you know, without really any context or, you know, I guess in this case, kind of a significant amount of volume and context,  

[01:20:24] Unknown:

it's hard to see what's going on. To be clear to be clear, a Tumblr gives you the best privacy possible if you trust the Tumblr.   Mhmm. It gives you better privacy than a CoinJoin.   It breaks the transaction graph, which is breaks the transaction graph. You get completely different Bitcoin back. Now exactly. And that can be a problem. Trust   the the custodian.  

[01:20:45] Unknown:

Right. So the problem the big problem is can do you trust the custodian? The follow-up problem is is I'm expecting to swap, you know, clean versus tainted coins, and I'm using that in scare quotes because I'm just thinking of sort of the kind of traditional darknet market user who thinks,   okay. I'm about to send coins to a darknet market. I'm gonna deposit, you know, clean coins into the mixer, and then, you know, on the way out, I'll just send my coins to the darknet market. And then if you kind of think of a vendor who's withdrawing their coins from a a darknet market, they go to a tumbler.   The the chances are are it's very possible that, you know, they're hoping to get clean quote unquote kind of exchange coins, let's call them, you know, k y c coins.  

And if they if the tumbler doesn't really swap kind of that   that tainted versus clean coins with them, they might just wind up at darknetmarketcoins   again anyway.   So,   you know, while it breaks the transaction graph, you know, it does have that sort of custodial risk. It sort of is like, what the point if they really can't,   you know, enforce that in any way? And, you know, I don't think that they   some of them don't know that. You know? It's just sort of an old peck. You know? Just sort of it worked. You know, I mean, there's a, you know, a decent amount of kind of, you know, quote unquote marketing material from some of them. But it's just   kind of the wild west and it's like,   just a a very old habit that just won't die.  



[01:22:18] Unknown:

Let me see. I mean, this is your show, dude. How how do you invest classification and clustering for OXT?   You need to make manual deposits withdrawals to these entities to get a foothold. What is precision recall for your classifier?  

[01:22:30] Unknown:

Good questions.   So   for the people that don't know, when we use the term cluster, what we're specifically referring to is   the method of   attributing multiple inputs   to a transaction to the same entity.   It's often called the common input ownership heuristic or the merged input heuristic.   And the assumption is that all of the inputs to a transaction are owned by the same entity.   And this is true most of the time,   except when you're looking at a CoinJoin transaction.   So,   I think is asking, you know, how do you address kinda that, Matt? Can you put that back up? I can't see that. I got you. I got you.  

[01:23:16] Unknown:

Okay. Yeah. So how do you address He's like, why he's basically asking, how do you cluster the shit? Like, what what are you deciding that this is a cluster?  

[01:23:24] Unknown:

My long rambling intro is that what OXT does is it takes a very conservative viewpoint.   It first checks to make sure that a transaction doesn't have any, quote, unquote, entropy.   It's not a CoinJoin transaction.   If it knows it's not a CoinJoin transaction,   then it will assign a cluster,  

[01:23:45] Unknown:

if that makes sense, hopefully. So the problem is with CoinJoin, it's very obvious.   Yes. Like, you have with Whirlpool, you have a 5 person transaction is happening.   It it is it's very clear. It's a 5 person transactions happening. They all have a 1,000,000 Sats. They all have,   50,000,000   Sats. Whatever whatever the the the actual amount is,   it's it's 5 turn 5 users all coming together doing a collaborative transaction. It's very obvious on chain.   With a custodial Tumblr, you do not have that obviousness.   They they can do a bunch of different things to reduce that that   that obviousness. I mean, obviousness is, like, a horrible word. I need to think of a better word. But,   it it is they like, I remember   I mean, because   I mean, the big one in my early days was Bitmixer.  

And they had, like, you would have time delays, and they would split it up in different amounts and all these different things. So you'd have, like,   over the next, like, 27   hours,   and and at, like, different random increments, you would get a payment of a small fraction of that that was a regular payment, you know, and you'd get paid. And you can do all these different heuristic breaker things,   if you have full faith and trust in the the custodian   who is under regulatory   crosshairs.   So we ended up in a situation where those people operating it were in so much risk that the majority of them would rather fuck us,   Because if they were gonna take that much risk, they might as well make bank,   and they couldn't charge, like, a reasonable price to to to to put up for that risk. So so so this is where we are today. This is why,   centrally coordinated coin joints,   as we see with Whirlpool, as we see with Wasabi,   are so, I think, vital.  

It's it's a middle ground. It's a it's a it's a middle ground where we have better privacy guarantees   than something that isn't centrally coordinated,   But we don't have to we reduce the risk of of a honeypot   and of the the the person who's in charge getting either fucked or   or,   complicit.   Would you would you disagree there? Like, that that's basically how we ended up in this situation currently.  

[01:26:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, exit scanning was totally a thing. Right? You know, and it still is a thing. You know, that's always the risk with sort of the custodial   kind of,   privacy or just basically any solution. Right? And that's a darknet market issue. Right? Escrow   exit scams.   So to avoid, you know, custodial kind of as much as possible is really, you know, really kind of important.   And so you sort of mentioned, you know, a very while back before I got off on my long tangent, which was something along the lines of, you know, given the choice between, you know, coin joining   or, you know, using a custodial tumbler, you know, kind of, you know, what are what are you better off doing?  

You know, the custodial tumblers, they can do whatever they want with your coins. I mean and that's what I meant by Blender not really having a distinct kind of footprint or fingerprint on chain. You know, they it's sort of really pretty hard to see unless you kind of are looking at a lot of those transactions.   So, you know, in a coin join, you can see. But, you know, at least with kind of Whirlpool the good thing about Whirlpool is, you know, even though the transactions are obvious, they don't have any real reliable, you know, history. You don't have to worry about getting those kind of quote, unquote tainted coins back. Or let's say you deposit kind of a   a little bit of a a large amount. Well,   you know, you shouldn't do that, but, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is you can sort of remix kind of forever and sort of trickle your way out and not have to sort of worry about kind of some of the things that even the custodial tumblers still have to worry about. So, you know, the good thing about Whirlpool is it's kinda turned a lot of that on its head because it's noncustodial.  

You get kind of that benefit of how long you can keep your coins for remixing.   You know? And so I know a lot of people that don't really kind of maybe they don't quite get that. Remixing is free.   You just put your you pay to enter the pool. And after you've entered, you just can kind of remix until you're ready to spend. Well, I mean, it's not free. Well,   yeah. I mean, you have to pay the entry price. Yeah. You have to pay you have to pay the the entry price. And then after that, it's it's free. Right? And you have to pay in the time that you leave. Nothing in life is free or no? Right. So you have to pay in the time that you leave your coins mixing.   Let me see. Rome does Roman have a question?  

Are there benefits to running coins through custodial template and through CoinJoin?   Yes.   I I I mean, I'm pretty vehemently against most things that are custodial.   Also, the problem with doing,   using multiple solutions is that you can kind of shoot yourself in the foot.   We kind of saw that with a Twitter hacker. If you don't really have a segregated wallet, even though you use a custodial Tumblr, if you then sort of combine and change Let's talk about the Twitter attacker. Yeah. The hacker.  

[01:28:52] Unknown:

Because you doxed him. You, like, you tracked him through Wasabi.   Well   So, like, you can put this guy in jail, basically.  

[01:28:59] Unknown:

No. He put himself in jail.   For those of you who don't remember, it was probably in June or July.   Twitter was hacked, and a guy stole,   I don't know, 15 Bitcoin or something along those lines. No. I mean, he didn't steal any Bitcoin. It was like It was donate it was donated. It was gifted to him. Right.  

[01:29:19] Unknown:

He scammed a bunch of people. He scammed right. He scanned he put, like, I'll send you double if you if you send it to this address from Elon Musk's Twitter account. Account.  

[01:29:28] Unknown:

Right. Right. And so what they proceeded to do with the coins was they basically split them up into using both chip mixer.   They sent some coins kinda straight to exchanges. They sent a little bit to Wasabi. But before they did any of that, they sent most of the coins to an address,   a single address,   that had a history of   interacting with Coinbase.   Done.   Right? Done. Right? And even if even if it's not  

[01:29:55] Unknown:

your Coinbase history, maybe it's somebody else's Coinbase history. You know, somebody else sent coins to you from guy you played fantasy football with. Exactly. The guy that you played fantasy. Your no k y c stats all of a sudden just landed you in fucking Gitmo.  

[01:30:07] Unknown:

And there you have it.   You know They said bread crumbs again. They said bread crumbs.  

[01:30:14] Unknown:

That's fucked up. Yeah. It's just so so so   this was actually I mean, if I'm gonna bring us back an hour   to a half an hour into this show,   we were talking about NIMS, and I was this was my tangent I was gonna go to, and I forgot, to be honest. And I remember just now is is   is my biggest disappointment with Bitcoin   is that improper usage of Bitcoin actually doxes you as a NIM.   So, like, if you're a NIM and you just never interact with Bitcoin, it's easier than if you have to interact with Bitcoin. Like, their Bitcoin is a a a reasonable   and this is what the Monero guys will will say all day and every day if they're still here.  

That that that is the risk. Right? The risk is that you could be completely private online. Let's say, you you're amazing. You're a fucking wizard.   You're ergo BTC. No one knows who the fuck you are. Bitcoin can be the risk. Bitcoin is the biggest risk for a lot of people.  

[01:31:14] Unknown:

I think that's,   evident from   the dotnetmarket's   usage as well. I mean I mean, Ergo's the expert here compared to me myself. But,   there there's a massively decrease in amount of usage of Bitcoin on dotnetmarkets.   And and, you know, privacy is gonna be or lack of privacy is gonna be the number one,   instigator of that, I think. Don't you agree, Ergo?  

[01:31:38] Unknown:

Yeah.   I mean, we've been seeing increased adoption of Monero and   decreased usage of Bitcoin.   The last kind of holdout for, you know, Bitcoin only darknet market is Hydra, which is kind of the one of the if not the largest,   and probably one of the longest running darknet markets is still voice.   Yeah. But the but every but other than that, everybody's everybody's.  

[01:32:05] Unknown:

Everyone I I noticed on the no bullshit Bitcoin feed that everyone was saying that, White House Market who just went Monero only,   was the largest dark net market, and you commented,   you're like, Hydra is the is the largest market. Guys,   get it together.  

[01:32:22] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I mean, there's there's a little bit of, the Monero guys have something here. They could say, well, you know, White House has been, you know, around for a very long time and they use Monero. And if you don't have a cluster for Monero, then tell me how much volume,   White House market's doing. Right. So that's, you know, that's a good counter to to that. So, you know, White House has been around for a long time. They're they're very kind of pro privacy. They're very strict. They're super strict with the PGP.   PGP. You know? And and, you know, and and a lot of vendors now are even starting to say where they'll, you know, they won't accept,   transactions without PGP, even if it's not enforced at the market level. But White House market kind of does that, you know, privacy, OPSEC. That's kind of their their shtick. That's their selling point. And if you ever make it to Dread, you could see,   you know, one of the admins on there. He's he's, a pretty entertaining character.  



[01:33:17] Unknown:

61 to 2. Who do you think is the honeypot?   I'm guessing he thinks Hydra's the honeypot.   It's like Putin run because Putin's a fucking boss, and he just he's just trying to accumulate Bitcoin.   I think Bitcoiners don't appreciate   a GPG, PGP   enough.   I think it's super important. I think the majority of freaks listening probably right now. If you use PGP or GPG,   if you've used it in the last   month,   put a message in the in the chat.  

[01:34:02] Unknown:

Yeah. 61 and 2 is talking about Hydra. Yeah. The ones that are using Bitcoin. So if I could just give my   take on it real quick.   Things are a little bit different in Eastern Europe and Russia. They don't have,   as many kind of centralized exchanges. I mean, yeah, some people are using Binance, but I think a lot of it's peer to peer.   And if you go to Hydra   and actually check out their website, they have a built in exchange. And 6102, you know, might raise a good point here and say, like, you know, it's gotta be a honeypot. But I think the way that things sort of work, and I could I could be wrong, is that they have,   basically,   it's sort of like a Venmo but tied to your phone number. Right? And so everybody has some sort of, like, throwaway phone number account,   and they can swap cash for Bitcoin pretty easily in more of a peer to peer way than really most of the west. And I think that's one of the last things that's that's sort of holding them together.  



[01:34:56] Unknown:

The coolest part about Hydra,   which no one fucking talks about, by the way, which is, like, the most cypherpunk fucking thing ever, is that they don't ship shit.   Everything gets left at a drop location.  

[01:35:10] Unknown:

Yes. They did. You go to this coordinate in Moscow and, like, your fucking drugs are there. Which removes a lot of the risk for most people. Yeah. That's fucking baller. Most people do that is receiving is receiving their package in the mail. That's that's for, you know, buyers, not not necessarily vendors. Vendors have a different threat model. Right. But yeah. That and that that addresses a lot of that problem, which is pretty neat. Yeah. I mean, people talk about, like,  

[01:35:34] Unknown:

hardware wallets, like, keeping keeping your address to hardware wallet vendors. Like, people are getting, like, fucking PCPs shipped to themselves.   And and they're exposing Bitcoin usage. Just like also, you're a drug user and you're a Bitcoin user. Do you do you expose both at the same time?  

[01:35:53] Unknown:

Yes. I got it.   Yeah. Good call. So Maybe set on dead drops. Right?  

[01:35:58] Unknown:

Dead drops is cool as fuck. Right? Like, that's a cool concept.   They don't get enough appreciation for that. That's a really cool idea.   I I I look, I I think, ultimately, like, people just don't use PGP and and GPG enough, and I I think that's also really important.   That's purely, like, fuck private messaging. Like, if I don't care if you care about private messaging.   And I'm I I shield it. I put it on on the fucking thing. What are you doing?   I I I think I think   you need to be able to verify your software. Right? And so, like, people need to learn how to use PGP and GPG, and they're just not doing it.  

[01:36:52] Unknown:

I'm still waiting on the Bitcoin q and a PGP tutorial I haven't I haven't seen that guide yet I haven't seen it well I have a guide at usepgp.com  

[01:37:01] Unknown:

oh  

[01:37:02] Unknown:

okay. But I didn't write I did it as well. I don't I redirected Just did me drop 1 the other day, and, which is pretty good. It was geared towards core, but perhaps I'll I'll add one to the arsenal. It is on my list.   I'll be honest. It's one of the ones I keep pushing to the back because I'm I'm trying to come up with ways to do it without boring people to death. Well, my cold card guide actually shows it in line how to do it, but I also  

[01:37:27] Unknown:

this is my domain redirect,   to some other guy's guide,   on how to do it because use GPG was taken.   We got it 6102. You can stop showing this that's, you know, this guy's podcast. I like it. It's a good podcast.   Pass from last episode was a dope password manager. I've never heard of this.   I like KeePass. KeePass is solid. It's open source.   It's on many platforms.   Pardis used PaaS, and that's why he's shilling it.   Yeah. I mean, do you guys have,   so we're we're about an hour and 40 minutes in here. I lied to both myself and the freaks and said that I was gonna try and target an hour for the the second time in a row.   I don't know how many more times I can pass on this lie,   until it's gonna always be over an hour. Because I honestly this is a great conversation. I don't think we can shorten it.  

Verify Electrum wallet with signature.   Yeah. You can do that. You should do that.   I have the guide for how to do that with with the Spectre and cold card, but I don't have it for Electrum.   Do you guys have things you wanna talk about? You have a you have a topic you wanted to to call me out on as a public Bitcoin figure who has   been a LARPer in different situations or whatnot? You could rest you know, speak now or I'm gonna hold your peace.  

[01:38:57] Unknown:

We're all lapped at the end of the day, aren't we? But,   you said that you wanted to talk about,   notes, so I'll open it up to the chat. Yeah. Let's see if I know that you want some question on notes.   Just while waiting for some questions to come through and bring up some problems. Running a node  

[01:39:13] Unknown:

and you're in this chat, hit us with a question. And if you are running a node, hit us with a question, but especially if you're not running a node.  

[01:39:20] Unknown:

I'm gonna put you on the spot while I wait for some questions. My Favorite node implementation?  

[01:39:25] Unknown:

My favorite I so I ran through all of the,   247 dedicated nodes.   You have lightning. You have you have Whirlpool.   You know?  

[01:39:37] Unknown:

Did you have a Casa?  

[01:39:39] Unknown:

No. I never had a Casa because that was just obviously garbage to begin with.   I,   I mean, they shouldn't have their their their their first generation node was just, like, miserable. The second one, by the time I got it, I just turned it into a Ronin when it came.   So so I have, like, 6 nodes sitting right in front of me.   I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, most people can just use a Bitcoin Core Prune node with Spectre   and a cold card. And then from there, they can   they can move to other,   you know, signers. They can add signers to the to the library.   And I think you have a separate run Ronin dojo or some kind of dojo node that powers your samurai stack, and then, like, that's your coin joint. So you come in   through   you're already KYC'd salary.  

You're already getting paid KYC through salary. We went over this in 15 minutes in the beginning,   and you go through your KYC fucking bullshit stacking stats, whatever, you know, bullshit,   auto DCA,   and then it comes in and it goes right through Whirlpool, and then it goes into Spectre,   Spectre plus   core plus whatever signers you choose. In the beginning, I think Coldcard is the best one to choose. And my guide for that is that we run bitcoin.com.  

[01:41:05] Unknown:

One of the questions that came up before,   tied into what you just said was,   I forget who asked it, but they they they asked the question of, do do we,   leave a 100% of our sats,   running through Whirlpool?   Yeah. What do we do there?   For me personally, yes. Conjuring absolutely everything.   I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do say from our Yeah. Well, I was just about to say I'm gonna get some shit from the samurai guys, but I do siphon off some into cold storage. Oh. I've I've got Shamrock on the cover. But I'm curious.   But,   I do keep a a a a predetermined level in there that I used to spend in Yeah. We know. I think but but  

[01:41:47] Unknown:

Ergo, give them shit. No. No. I'm not gonna give them shit. That's a that's a very reasonable thing to do. And I That's what I do. I much prefer that to the, hey. I'm sending everything back with my hardware wallet. So No. No. No. That's what I do. What I do is I exactly what what what BQA just said. It is. I I do the same exact thing.  

[01:42:06] Unknown:

I mean, if you're talking about if let's be honest here. If we're talking about perfect privacy and perfect privacy, bullshit. We're talking about your you want your focus as privacy,   you keep it all in in in Whirlpool   forever until you spend it.   If we're talking about perfect security, you never go into Whirlpool.   Perfect security. We're talking about prior prioritizing security, you never go into Whirlpool. You just go straight into some kind   of air gapped, cold type of situation.   But, really, the ideal situation for most people is probably, like, a middle ish ground.  

[01:42:41] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's the whole other thing. You know? Like, 20% that you leave remixing just because you can't, you know, and, like, send the rest to your hardware wallet or whatever. You know, it doesn't have to be, you know, all or nothing.   Right. You know, especially if you've got a dedicated device that's got good hygiene, right, like a Raspberry Pi that's only ever, you know, had Ronin Dojo installed or whatever. All that Bitcoin q and a, he's the node guy. You know, talk about that a little bit more.   But, you know, that's that's definitely reasonable.  



[01:43:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I think I just wanna touch on one of the the issues around I get a lot of DMs about,   which is good. You know, people wanna increase their privacy. Like, right. I wanna I wanna, whirlpool all of my stats. I'm like, okay. Great. Then, like, right. I wanna go and send it all to my call card and it's all to my ledger. And I'm just like, woah. Hold on. Hold on. So this is what this is where a lot of people trip themselves up is that, you know, they'll they'll send the whole statue kit through,   through Whirlpool, get some great forward looking privacy. You know, they might have bought on Coinbase or something like that, but they've vanished through Whirlpool. They've they've got a good level. They've brought these deterministic links. You know, they they've kind of,   the UTXO has been baptized again. They've got a fresh start. And then they go and send it all to,   to a ledger that's got no coin control because they're using it with a a wallet software that doesn't allow them to to manage those ETF tools effectively.  

So they might sit there for 5 years, you know, gain a load of value, great stuff.   And then they come to spend it again, and they just merge all that together to send it back to an exchange somewhere. And and effectively, all they've done is just completely wasted a load of sats in Whirlpool.   Because by merging those GTXOs together again, you know, they're showing   common ownership,   which is something that,   chain spies like Ergo look for.   And   so I I just, urge people listening to this to be   less hasty when trying to throw everything through Whirlpool   and then get it off there because it's a hot wallet as fast as possible. You know? Well, let's jump into Nuance a little bit.  



[01:44:43] Unknown:

Of what? Go to town.   I I I I wanna so so when we come out when we come out of Whirlpool,   samurai intentionally tries to protect yours protect you from yourself.   So if if you spend less if you spend less than half   of your your post Whirlpool stash, so you've gone through coin join, you've gone through this coordinated coin join round.   Presumably, you've hopefully stayed in there for a little bit, so there's remix potential.   Even if you don't remix, the fact that other participants in your first mix remix   kind of counts for yourself as well.  

So then you go to spend.   If you spend less than half, it simulates a fake coin join. So it it it it simulates it simulates a real coin join, not a fake coin join. It simulates a real coin join that you're with another person, and you guys are both contributing   outputs for it. And then you can also do a fucking real coin join with another person that doesn't have samurai involved at all,   that is, like, a real 2 person coin join or potentially a 3 person coin join if the 2 of you pay a 3rd person.   So that's awesome. Yeah. I I I don't know where I'm going with this. My my point is my point is is you really have to care about what happens after that coin joint. The the the   you know, like, Whirlpool doesn't just automatically protect you.  

Wasabi doesn't automatically protect you on steroids.   You you you have to   once you do this process, you have to deal with   what are the repercussions   of my next step.   What am I giving up? What am I exposing about myself on the next step?   And and this goes back to what I said earlier, which is is is the the biggest issue I have as a as someone who's trying to educate people on Bitcoin using Bitcoin in a more self sovereign way is that,   there's so many ways you can just fuck yourself.  

[01:46:47] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's not easy, and and this is where where samurai really shines. I mean, the the default is it doesn't let you fuck yourself   over. You know, if you try and spend your whole wallet balance after you've you've gone through a whirlpool,   you're gonna get a hefty warning to say, you know, this is this is a bad idea.   And like you touched on,   if you'd spend   just under half your balance, as a general rule of thumb, it'll trigger that,   simulated coin joint,   which is   the wallet will always try and,   trigger that type of spend   by default. You know, it's on by default as long as you meet those spending conditions of less than half   half of your,   wallet balance.  

That is the default transaction.   So it's it's it's look at it as guide rails. You know, it's built to   to,   stop you from fucking yourself over.   So just just tying that back to   the the sending everything back to cold storage. You know, appreciate,   the the best option for for privacy is to leave it remixed in Whirlpool. Completely agree.   You know, the the nothing's gonna beat that because you your your sort of your privacy is only growing when you get remixes and when your peers get remixes, which is fantastic.   But there is absolutely gonna be people that haven't got that,   risk tolerance to say, I don't want any of my sats on a hot wallet.  

I don't want any of my keys online. I just I just wanna get some privacy and then send it all to cold storage.   So stonewall by default, absolutely.   The samurai guys have now released,   Soroban,   massive, massive Soroban   maximalist,   which is a a an encrypted   tool based communication layer   that, allows you to coordinate these   2 person coin joints called Stonewall X Twos   with anybody on the planet,   in a matter of seconds.   The the guys who got a Telegram group where you can sort of coordinate these and find a a mixed partner.   And it's all coordinated within within the app.  

And you can you can conduct these spends, which completely screw a chain analysis, which I'm sure Hugo can touch a bit more on. But these spends just completely skew that transaction graph.   So it's another great option to to sort of preserve your privacy when you're leaving the pool.   Whether you're whether it's a spend to a merchant,   or you spend to see your own cold storage,   always look to to do a Stonewall or Stonewall X2,   wherever possible, really.  

[01:49:28] Unknown:

So we have,   both Riccardo Masutti,   and Typerboli are they're basically asking the same thing,   and I think this is a pretty important question that gets asked all the time.   Besides usability, let's say you you you figure out how to use join market, and you you get it working, and you're working with your own node. What is the negative? What is the negative of of using join market versus something like Whirlpool?  

[01:50:01] Unknown:

I think well, the obvious one, I I can't talk from experience because joint market, if I'm being honest, scares me.   Keep it simple. Bitcoin did a a very thorough   guide for joint market the other day, which I've gone through a couple of times.   And I think   it it's,   obviously, there's no centralized coordinator. It's entirely peer to peer,   but it's,  

[01:50:26] Unknown:

very coordinator is the taker in joint market?  

[01:50:29] Unknown:

Yeah. But there's no centralized coordinator. It's like like you get within, Whirlpool or Wasabi.  

[01:50:37] Unknown:

Ergo. Hit us.   You're gonna make me do it, or you're gonna do it? No. No. It it's fine. I'm not muted. Right? Yeah. No.  

[01:50:46] Unknown:

I think Joy Market's pretty pretty neat. They they sort of blazed the trail for, you know, this noncustodial   coin join,   and they got a lot of things right. They did, you know, they did their mixed depth kinda scheme,   which, for the people that don't know, is sort of just how many, you know, mixes have your coins been through. And each of your separate kind of mix depths,   you know, are kept segregated,   kind of the segregated account model. So, like, you know, that foot gun thing where   the select all button, you know, people   select their unmixed change and spend it with their mixed coins. That happens with Wasabi. That doesn't happen with JoinMarket, you know, and they saw this first. They did it first in, whatever, 2015, 2016.  

The other kind of thing that's neat about JoinMarket is it's sort of, like, dynamic in its kind of own way.   You know, the I think the joint market devs, they they call it, fixed denominations   are are bad, and they use that to refer to Wasabi and kind of Whirlpool. But what they mean is that there is no fixed up denomination for joint market and that the sort of the market theory is, you know, okay. The users come together. They they pick a denomination. They agree to do the mix,   whatever the denomination is. So it's not quite as static as that sort of, you know,   100% entropy coin join that kind of, you know, Whirlpool has.  

But it also has the downside of having the unmixed change that sort of just follows users along   and can cause problems.   And we talked about this in   the toxic recall report that we did, you know, several months ago   about, you know, a user who allegedly had their coin stolen.   They were mixed through JoinMarket and, you know, well,   we were able to use the the unmixed change to basically   isolate   their their mixed outputs and follow them through the mixer.   So that's one of the things that I don't like about joint market is that it's it's less than,   100% entropy. It's not a true zero link kind of implementation,   because I think that sort of opens up a lot of things. So that's kind of my take on sort of the on chain side and, you know, Bitcoin Q and A talked about kind of the   usability issues. But I I do think that, you know, those guys did a lot of good work early on.  



[01:53:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I  

[01:53:03] Unknown:

I I I What else? 6102 is talking about post mix spending tools. He's talking about that. One of the things that I don't like about join market is that you can pay to someone in the mix, and I think that there's a misconception that, oh, this is great for efficiency, and you can just put in your, you know, output destination address, and you you basically make that that coin join your spend. Right. What I don't like is that you can do that to a reused address at Binance, for example. Right. It ruins the mix for other people.   It ruins everyone's mix. Ruins everyone's mix. So it it kinda cuts both ways.  



[01:53:39] Unknown:

But that's why makers,   should just never   get any they just assume they're getting no privacy, right, in a joint market model?   I wouldn't say no. I mean, it's not no privacy. Assume I'm I'm saying they should assume no privacy as as an extreme.   Right? Like, you should assume an extreme so that you're safe.  

[01:53:59] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's it is always good to to be as conservative as you kinda can.   Right? And it's like it's comes back to that sort of thing that we sort of started off at the beginning when you say, like, perfect privacy or zero privacy, and it's   it's not   on or off. It's not yes or no. It's privacy against who or whom, privacy against whom, and and, you know, how much privacy against whom.   So, you know, it's it's a whole spectrum. So,   let me see what else.   6102 is asking,   might be worth talking about the differences between unmixed change,   dry market and Wasabi.  

Well, I mean, the the change is it's a very similar process, but the difference is that Wasabi has the added   negative of the address reuse, which when   a mixed output   pays to an address   and then an unmixed output pays to that same address,   that at you know, that mixed output is now deanonymized and whatever potential, you know, follow-up spends are deanonymized along with it.   And that's something that just hasn't been fixed for whatever reason. Well, so so so let's unpack this,  

[01:55:09] Unknown:

because I think this is this is why I have this show,   because we talk about shit like this,   when other people, like, somehow, like, biggest story of 2020, no one talks about it.   The   they had   bad   address use first,   and that was the fixed fee address.   Like, literally, every single wasabi mix, wasabi coin join. We try not to talk I I don't I don't want to call it mix. I wanna call it coin join. Every single wasabi coin join was,   paying to the same fee address,   so they were all tainted by the same fee address.   And we saw a lot of exchanges   have issues with that because it was, like, very right in their face.  

People say CoinJoin   has issues at exchanges.   No. We've only had issues with   with Wasabi,   fee   reuse.   Since then, they've also had just fee reuse, like,   address reuse within mixes constantly, not the fee. The fee so they've switched it. So now   the fee is an x pub, so we're we're good on that. So the fee is always paid to a different address.   But but but within the mix within the fucking mix within the coin join,   we have   address paying to the same address. Right?  

[01:56:42] Unknown:

Yeah. That's the issue we're talking about now. Yeah. Exactly. We're talking about a different kind of address for use. And there's a there's a couple sort of different kinds. One of them would be symmetric address for use. That would be   on the input side, we have one address, and on the output side, we also have that same address.   Okay? So that's, you know,   obviously, the input address is owned by the output address. That's the same person. And that could be a mixed output. That could be an unmixed output. That could be a change output.   That could be, you know, both.  

And then the other address reuse that I mentioned a little while ago is the one that's not symmetric where it's reused on both sides, the input and the output side.   It's when   a   mixed output is paid to an address. It doesn't you know, just any address, and that a change output is paid to that same address or vice versa. Basically, you know, a mixed output and a change output go to the same address. And so   if that mixed output is spent,   it's technically deanonymized.   Right? Or any outputs that are also spent along with that that mixed output, You know, it's de anonymized. So they got we got rid of the the static fee address,   but the   systemic address for use was, you know  

[01:57:57] Unknown:

To be clear here to be clear here,   Ricardo is saying, Wasabi coin joins are easily identifiable in the blockchain without the fixed address. Yes.   But   when when   the   the coin   the the fucking chain analysis, the chain surveillance companies are identifying   transactions based on proximity,   It is it is very obvious to them that one scam transaction went into a wasabi mix, and then it connected to that fee address. So you're throwing it right in their face, and you're making them have to fucking deal with it.   The thing is is is the majority of companies,   if it's not right in their face, if they're not, like, completely it's not completely obvious to them,   if it's just a tiny little bit   hidden,   they just won't care about it. And that's the difference. The the the difference is that the Wasabi fixed fee address is basically,   let's just shove it into the face of every single compliance bro at every single fucking exchange   and, like, expect them not to fucking do something about it. Of course, they're gonna do something about it. If you, like, kinda hide it a little bit, they're less likely to fucking do something about it. That's that's the real result. That's the truth.  

On that note,   separately,   the coordinator for Wasabi is is allowing   systemic address reuse,   which reduces the anonymity set, and you're paying on a per basis on the anonymity set. So if it's not the full anonymity set, it's still not   that huge of an issue, but it's it is an issue.   And then   on on top of I guess, on on on top of all of that   Yeah. I I   I I mean, on top of all of that, like, I think you should just really just not be depositing into KYC institutions. Like, you should not be considering that.   And then   last but not least, the as far as we're concerned, do we agree that joint market   if if if you're not expecting privacy as a maker   like, if you're a taker, you're getting decent privacy. Like, you're getting pretty good privacy as a taker.  



[02:00:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I I mean, the the the last thing I'll say, you know, is, yes, you can get your nonfixed denomination, and that might be the exact size that you need.   But,   you know, kind of the thing that I like about Whirlpool and I keep sort of coming back to is that,   you know, Whirlpool, I just sort of look at it as kind of like a wall.   And on one side, all your premixed coins,   wall could be as long as it needs to be as long as you remix. And then on the other side,   you kind of get to spend kind of freely. And   without these sort of new long deterministic kind of peel chains, which and you talked about stonewalls before,   which is, you know, either a simulated 2 person coin joiner, in this case, a 2 person coin joiner.  

So you can then, you know,   transition through the mixing process and spend however much you need to spend without   any   of the other negatives that sort of affect kind of the mixing process. And that's sort of why I like you know, and why I've sort of gravitated sort of towards samurai is that it's   sort of meant to be spent and the other ones   not kind of so much.   You know, so and if you're looking to kind of come back to the sort of full circle, you know, I wanna be able to spend my Bitcoin and, you know, avoid censorship resistance and participate in kind of a, you know, a free speech,   you know, voluntary economy. I mean,   there's nothing better at this point.  



[02:01:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Bitcoin q and a, you're just gonna you're just cool. He's cool. Everything's fine over there.   He doesn't wanna be on the record.   I  

[02:02:07] Unknown:

I was muted. I was muted. Sorry.  

[02:02:10] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. I'm sure you had very vocal   vocal concerns.   On Musa by use or on I don't know. Do you have anything for us?  

[02:02:22] Unknown:

I mean, I'll I'll just sign off. I mean, I'm not one for Twitter drama. I'm not one for for,  

[02:02:29] Unknown:

No. I mean, not Twitter drama. Fuck Twitter drama. What about join market   join market versus,   Whirlpool. Right? Like, why are why are we using Whirlpool versus join market?  

[02:02:40] Unknown:

I mean, join market just looks too fucking difficult, I'll be honest. Have you tried it? Easy.  

[02:02:46] Unknown:

No. No. Okay. Well, I mean, you should be it's very difficult.  

[02:02:50] Unknown:

I mean,   well, the thing I like about Whirlpool, right, is you've got 3 tiers. You you can start dead easy. You could just get an Android phone, download Samura wallet, and start mixing in in a matter of minutes.  

[02:03:03] Unknown:

Simple as that. Right? You can then get some really good privacy just using your phone. No. I mean, I think my biggest complaint with Whirlpool is that it's not easy enough.   Like, it's difficult that I have to work people through it in terms especially if I want them to use their own Dojo,   which I think everyone should use their own Dojo. Like, that's difficult for me, but it's still,   like, a 1000000 times easier than working them through fucking join market. What's the pain point there? What's the hard part for people? Well, I mean, the hardest part is fucking Dojo. But then, also, just, like,   conceptualizing   shit.  

Right? Like, you have to conceptualize   the whole the whole process involves,   like, logical   decision making. Right?   Like, using Bitcoin privately were like, it involves, like, personal responsibility and, like, actually   making decisions for yourself.  

[02:04:05] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I I I agree. You know, there's still a lot of work to be done, but what I will say is that is that right now, samurai is is the easiest way. It's got the biggest guardrails.   It's the easiest way to get started, and it's the hardest way to fuck yourself over. I don't think guys.  

[02:04:20] Unknown:

What?  

[02:04:21] Unknown:

Here come the Monero guys.  

[02:04:23] Unknown:

The Monero guys, we lost them. You see see, we're successful. It's been 2 hours, so they're gone now.   Okay?   So they're no longer bothering us. They only came in for the beginning part.   6102 is saying the fees are the hardest part. I don't think the fees are the hardest part. I think it's very difficult. I think you have to conceptualize. Like, you have to actually,   like, process privacy as as a goal and, like, try and make it happen. That's the difficult part.  

[02:04:52] Unknown:

I mean, 6 foot so q and a is done literally a   a Whirlpool fee, you know,   calculator,   proximator, estimator, however you wanna call it. And people should definitely check that out because,   it's   pretty simple. You put in the number of inputs that you you're gonna have, the number of outputs you're gonna have, and you get an estimate for what the fee is gonna be. I think that people have a hard time with the flat fee concept.   And and, you know, even some of the   everyone   misunderstands the fees,   if you mix 1 Bitcoin and the 0.001   pool,   you only pay 0.005   in coordinator fees. If you mix 10 Bitcoin and the 0.001   pool, you still pay the same amount, 0.005.  

And that's the thing that I think a lot of people mix is that   each deposit, you pay the same amount no matter how much the deposit is and deposits the wrong term. But,   you know,   I I know some people have a hard time with that. I think people have   more of a hard time with, you know we've sort of swung in kind of the two directions. I think it's better the way that things have been going recently. People use what daddy Warbits just said. What? What did he say? This is the problem. Nailed it.  

[02:06:12] Unknown:

I have no idea how Whirlpool works, but I use it. I use it.  

[02:06:19] Unknown:

I mean, there there it is. That's the problem, Ergo. That that is literally the he summed up the problem in a single sentence. I push the button and it goes mix. It could be more difficult.  

[02:06:34] Unknown:

I think the bit where people trip themselves up, just riffing on what you just said over there about, you know, it's a fixed fee, is that using that example, if you're gonna throw a full Bitcoin through one of the smaller pools, which I've seen people do, unfortunately,   is that, you know, in high fee environments, they're gonna get massively stung   with,   with a hell of a lot of minor fees because they're they're dividing that one Bitcoin into a absolute shit ton of of smaller UTXOs, which is what they've done. You know, they've told the app to do it. It's not a fault with the protocol or anything like that.   But it it it's a fact of the matter is that people don't consider incentive is not fees on top.  



[02:07:12] Unknown:

Right.   I mean, I don't know if it's broken, but it the incentive is what the incentive is. I mean, it's it's it's way more expensive to to do the 50,000,000 sat pool than if you did the same exact amount over to the  

[02:07:26] Unknown:

1,000,000 sat pool. I mean, if everyone was perfectly rational and they totally understood,   you know, the fee model, they would do their own calculation, and they would say, oh, this one is obviously cheaper. You know? They just have to have that kind of knowledge. But at the same time, you can do your own sort of heuristic. And I just pick I'm just gonna pick a number. I'm gonna say, if you have more than 20 if you're gonna get more than 20 outputs, then you should go to the next pool up.   And if you're at the 0.5   pool and you're gonna get more than 20 outputs,   let us know. But I wish it just had, like it should have, like, a cascade mode or whatever. Yeah. And I think that I think that the guys have talked about that.  



[02:08:05] Unknown:

You know, some and and all my this guy, za yaa yaa za. He's like, I just probably overpaid.   I remember realize you could put in, like, a larger amount to get a lower fee percentage wise for, like, half until halfway through.  

[02:08:26] Unknown:

I will say one other thing is that,   I think the the development team is planning to introduce smaller pools.   Right now, it's the 0.5 BTC pool, 0.05   BTC pool. You gotta talk in Sats, bro. I know. I don't talk in Sats. I'm sorry. I'm broken. And the 0.01   pool, I think that there are some plans for a 0.001  

[02:08:48] Unknown:

or 0.001. Have the lowest pool be fucking $300.   That's fucking ridiculous. So so they're we're gonna we're gonna keep you know, we keep stepping down. And I That that's the main, like Yeah. We're we're talking with clubs here. The main negative of wasabi is, well, if you don't have fucking $3,000,   you can't use it. It's not a spec of wallet.   It's not a Like, that's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous that the lowest threshold is is fucking 26   $100. Like, that's fucking insane.   And they just, like, they're that's cool. We're fine with that.   Who's using fucking you're, like, $400   underneath the travel rule or whatever the fuck.  

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.  

[02:09:35] Unknown:

Q and a, do you see this question here about Dojo and single board computers from Sam?  

[02:09:39] Unknown:

Where is this? I do. Yeah. Yeah. And I I was gonna be I was gonna be flipping and and reply with Read it out loud.   Hugo knows what I'm gonna say, but,   Danny Walbit's asked,   I've lost it now. No. It wasn't. No. No. Sam asked, I'm behind now.  

[02:09:57] Unknown:

But is it's the docker and single board computer aspects of Dojo that makes it tricky for non techies. Is that what you're saying?  

[02:10:04] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. So so there's 2 ways you can attack this. I mean, first and foremost,   installing Ronin Dojo fixes this. Zalco would kill me if I didn't say that.   But, yeah, there's 2 ways you can do it. You can go with the DIY route, which is is is obviously more technical.   You can install Ronin Dojo on on your own single board computer.   You know, if if that's out of your outside of your wheelhouse, go for a plug and play option. I mean, right this minute,   if you want a dojo, then the nodal is is the obvious option.   Their own in team have got one coming out very, very soon to keep you guys peeled for that.  

But, you know, there are options there. Again, nuance and trade offs. If you want a plug and play option, you're gonna have to pay extra for it. You know, these teams need to make some money. They're gonna message, put the link on the screen there, and that'll dot it.   Ultimately, if you're not willing to good that I   am? Yep.   It's it's it's a trade off between do you wanna spend your time learning how to do this,   do it yourself with your own hardware,   you know, flashing the SD card, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually not that not as as difficult as most people,   would have you believe. However,  

[02:11:16] Unknown:

if if your time is too precious, you're gonna have to spend some more sats, and you're gonna have to go down the nodal route. I mean, the nodal's the the nodal's classy. Like, I own a nodal. I run a Ronin run a dojo. Like, you can save money around the run and dojo, but then the nodal's fucking sexy. Like, you get what you pay for. I mean, you you you you have a I mean, especially the dojo version. I mean, it's a Lamborghini.   Like, you just ordered a fucking Porsche to your door.  

[02:11:44] Unknown:

Daddy Walbits is asking how much does it cost. I don't know. How how much does it cost? I think it is it is it 7700  

[02:11:51] Unknown:

8 disclosure, I got a I got a discount on the Nalandojo   dojo,   but it's fucking fantastic. It's it's got a fucking raid. He's, like, he, like, hooks you up. He, like, sets you the fuck up.   He he's paranoid for you, so you don't have to be paranoid. It's fucking $850.   It's very nice.   I I I think I paid 6.50, full disclosure.   But I paid for it, which is an important part.  

[02:12:19] Unknown:

Like I say, it comes down to traders at the end of the day. If you're a baller like like yourself, Matt, and you you've got that sort of cash line amount,   not not all   not all is, you know, is absolutely great. Your issue Right. You wanna It's got the fucking samurai  

[02:12:32] Unknown:

fucking engraved in it. 49. There you go. 6102 just answered. Yeah. We know we know 6102. We know how much it is. Thank you.   It's good. It's it's a very nice device, though. But what's the Sats rate?   The Sats rate goes up every day.   There you go. Oh, no. And it goes down every day. Number go down.   Oh, Asparoo's like, I think you paid more. Fuck you, Asparoo.   But the nozzle's a great product. The nozzle's the only product that's that that that gives me both lightning and,   samurai shit at the same time.   I mean, you can you can use the my node, but you're gonna have issues. Like, ultimately,   if you're not running a novel, what you should do is you basically should run 2 devices. You should run a device that's Ronin Dojo that's just,   samurai focused, and then you should run a device that is lightning focused, if you want if you want your own lightning node. Like, if you if you're trying to do your own 247 lightning node.  

So in that situation, you run a Nodl and you get both, and you have if you do the Nodl Dojo,   you you get in in fucking raid formation so your Hot Wallet isn't just, like, completely reckless,   and you're good.  

[02:13:50] Unknown:

Yeah. That's exactly what I do. I've got, RAS pipe lits and my lightning stuff. You know, the little amount that I do use it. And I've got me running dojo   for,   my always on mixer machine, which is, you know,   I love the Ronin guys. They're awesome.   Ergo, what about you? What do you run?  

[02:14:08] Unknown:

I'm a Ronin Dojo user.   I'm gonna I'm gonna I bought a nodal,   the nodal   OG,   thinking I needed lightning.   And,   you know, nothing against Askew who's in the chat and and Kito who have done a really good job with the, you know, the   the the the the samurai nodal, the dojo nodal. But I just kinda wanted something that was gonna keep me up to date, you know, right away, and I really kinda realized that I don't need lightning. And so that kinda led me to the, the Ronin Dojo route,   because those guys, they provide really good support, and you're always gonna have kind of the   the the newest,   version of of Dojo right away. And, you know, no questions asked. You've always got Zelco's, you know, number on tap in case you need support. I mean, it's like Prestiro. Best of all worlds. Yeah. Exactly. Prestiro for Zelco.  

I hope he listens to this later and he gets a little bit pissed.   But that but that's what I run. I'm simple, you know, I'm I'm very lazy.   If is if you if you have to ask me what I'm doing, it's it's probably not much.  

[02:15:20] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I actually and so I've come full circle. Like, I think that I think the majority of people just need Spectre plus Bitcoin Core.   And and and so maybe I'm a simple pleb in that respect. But I mean, I I mean, I also think that that everyone should have their samurai stack. Right? But but I think that a lot of people can just have their uncle Jim stack where they just scan theirs their friend's samurai,   node. They can just they just they just scan their friend's dojo,   and then they have their own, you know, pruned core node for their hardware wallet or whatever.  

[02:15:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's, like, a really good, you know, option for a lot of people. I I've already onboarded, like,  

[02:16:04] Unknown:

12 people, 13 people, where they're just all just,   like, they they're on my dojo.  

[02:16:11] Unknown:

It's good to go through the ritual too. It's like, okay. Scan this QR code, and now you're using my node to tell you the balance. You have to try best. And sometimes it's down, and they reach out to me. They're like, Matt Where am I calling? Get your shit together. Sort you a shit.  

[02:16:25] Unknown:

Why is my balance? Doing my shit today.   I like the QR code scan. The QR code scan is a good way of, I think, of of handling that connection.  

[02:16:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Massively underrated, in my opinion. I don't know why more implementations   don't,   do that. Obviously, you know, not a dev. Absolutely no idea what goes into creating that QR code to to   to make it you know, while it connect, but it it's,   you know, a fantastic feature for me. And and if anybody any of the devs are out listening   from the other implementations, please   consider adding that one. It just makes onboarding 10 times easier. Yeah. Every everyone should have the QR code thing.   It it it's a bit easier to say scan this QR code rather than, oh, just just let me send you this onion address from my Electrum server. It's such a better connection.   Make sure you get the right port,  

[02:17:20] Unknown:

and And Tor better be built in in default because, like, this is ridiculous that you have to do it separately.   So I think that's that's very important. I think we've come a long way in that respect.   Shout out to me. That's what I wanna talk about. So so we're 2 hours and 15 minutes in.   My my promise to you freaks that this is gonna be an hour is   just,   just really fucked you. So I apologize. I hope you ended at an hour and you're not listening now,   so that I didn't do this to you.   I wanna talk about BIP 47.   And BIP 47 is, I think,   probably the most important privacy improvement on Bitcoin,   and   I can't get anyone to talk about it. So I started a podcast,   called Citadel Dispatch. This is number 2. And I plan on talking about BIP 47 a lot until someone just fucking puts me in my place and is, like, we should not have bit 47.  

So   why is this awesome, and why don't we see it in other wallets?  

[02:18:25] Unknown:

Q and a, go first. You have you have the name. You you   The name out of car.  

[02:18:30] Unknown:

I mean I mean, I I personally cannot see,   the negatives a bit 47.   It's it leaves me scratching my head every single day   why more wallets don't implement implement this.   Possibly the only,   downside I can see right now, which I believe is not actually part of the BIP, is that,   first,   for   to implement a a NIM into Samura wallet, you need to do a follow transaction,   which is a an on chain transaction, which obviously incurs fees and and costs a small amount of sats. Now I believe the devs are working on removing that, and it's not actually   integral to,   to bit 47.  

So once that that sort of little hurdle has has disappeared, which I believe is, you know, is just over the horizon, I genuinely can't understand why more wallets don't implement bit 47.   You know?   I'm sure Ergo will put it far more eloquently   than myself in terms of,   the crux of bit 47 and what it is.   Well, I I don't know. I'll leave it open to the room, but I genuinely can't understand why people why more wallets don't don't implement this.  

[02:19:45] Unknown:

For the the listeners,   BIP 47   are,   is a a reusable payment   channel in quotes that, you know, basically is established between 2 users on chain.   I don't wanna say it's entirely like kinda lightning, but it's a little bit similar.   Anyway, once you've established that sort of notification transaction, it's it's very easy to   simply make payments to a   another PayNEM. Right? And Matt's got the the the the NIMs up on on the screen right now.   And all of this is basically managed by, you know, the the the the wallet. You know, you just instead of having to go, hey. I wanna pay Matt 50,000 sats.   You know, hey, Matt. Can you send me an address? I just say, you know, I've already made a   a a connection transaction to to Matt's paying him,   and it's as simple as that. I've already made the the connection transaction. I could just send him whatever I need to send him.  

And this is,   extremely, extremely useful for, you know, just on chain privacy and privacy in general. I mean, you know, we talk about kind of no KYC and and keeping your coins separate from, you know, your identity, whatever identity that may be. Maybe that's your Twitter profile. You know, you post a static, you know, donation address.   Well, that's now associated with whatever NIM that you have.   And a way to kinda get around that is to use the the bit 47,   you know,   payments.   And,   you know, I know   I know that the samurai team has a a lot more planned around this.   I can't say much right now, but I know that there's   kind of,   the the the bit 47,   Panam unlocks a lot of options for people that I don't even think that we really realize. Like, you know, you can sort of use it as,   you know, instead of, like, I wanna pay Ergo. You know?  

Ergo has his pay in him, and I've managed basically everything through that. You know? You could use it for, you know, sort of a Identity. Use identity. Right? You know, you you you can log into a website. You can sort of use it for encryption. You can use it for messaging. You can use it for, like,   quite a lot of of things that, you know It could be your NIM. Exactly. It can be sort of your real your real NIM.   You know, and   it's extremely useful for people who are making payments.   And for anybody who's not making payments, they're sort of like, you know, I don't really get it, or I don't see kind of the need.  

[02:22:20] Unknown:

But But but before you go on, like, let's let's just bring it back. Like, the issue here is the concern here is   you can't just   as a Bitcoiner, we can't just provide a Bitcoin address. If I provide you a Bitcoin address right now, freaks, you're all watching,   you wanna donate.   If you donate, not only will everyone see exactly how much was donated, they will see who donated it and where they donated it from. They can track all of you.   Right now, I have my my BIP 47 pay name on the screen.   I have my payment code on the screen. If you if you scan that payment code, you can pay me to a unique address that is generated between the 2 of us   because you scanned the code.  

And it if if Ergo scanned it or Bitcoin QA scanned it or any of the other freaks scanned it, they would get a different address.   That's a game changer. That is that is massive.   Like, people shouldn't have to have fucking BTC pay server to to to to get tips in a private way. They should be able to just post something   and have people use that something, that's a fix something,   to generate things to pay them.   And and BIP 47 allows you to do that, and I don't understand why Samura Wallet's the only one that has it.  

[02:23:43] Unknown:

I think I saw a comment from 6102 go by called called before.   I think that the bid process   you know, again, I'm not a developer and somebody will shout at me in the comments and tell me how I'm wrong.   But the process has become sort of a religious   experience.   You know, you have to pay tribute, And once you've paid tribute, then you get your thing integrated into Bitcoin.   And I I if, you know, my interpretation or my understanding of the history of bit 47 was that it was introduced by someone that, you know, didn't quite pay tribute and therefore, you know, we don't have it. You You know? And the excuse was some minor technical things, something like, well, the notification transaction is spam or something along those lines.   And I mean, looking back now at at, you know, even though we've had some fee events, how relatively low fees kinda still are, you know, it just boggles the mind as to why not a real thing.  

And it is a bit unexplainable.   You know, it just it's a shame.  

[02:24:48] Unknown:

Mark, did I hear that,   what's the Hexa Wallet, are they implementing bit 47?  

[02:24:56] Unknown:

Yes.   But, I mean,   look,   there are   projects that ask my advice, and those projects implement the things I want them to implement.   So I'm trying to make PIP 47 the thing.   I I I hope if you're listening right now and we don't have a formal relationship, you might reach out and be, like, let's fucking make this happen, you know, and I'll I'll help you make it happen.   I mean, because a bib 47 is not helpful   unless we have people implement it.   I have   my BIP 47 Pay NIM   publicly available,   but, like, honestly,   like, as much shit as my beloved samurai   wallet users want to give me for stacking sats, they're all stacking. They don't want to contribute, and that's fine. I'm complete I'm completely cool with that.  

I don't get much contribute   contributions through that fucking portal, and that's fine. But the thing is is it's only the those wallet users. It's only, like, you have to be specifically   Android and then   Samrod.   Right?   Like, no one's gonna accept   no one's gonna do any kind of major fundraiser, and they can only accept from that subset.   It it's only powerful if we get a lot of people to use it.   And and you only really get any kind of reasonable privacy unless we get a lot of people to use it. So,   I'm trying to make that like a   a thing I'm pushing for.  



[02:26:35] Unknown:

So hue Huey in the chat mentions about one of the criticisms of bit 47 is that it wastes too much space. I presume he means block space. I'll pay the fee, man.   Yeah.  

[02:26:45] Unknown:

The fees where are the fees?   They're not that expensive.  

[02:26:51] Unknown:

I was told they're gonna be way more expensive at this point. Well, q and a, how many do you I mean, do you stack tips? I mean, you've got, like, a 100 paid in followers.  

[02:27:01] Unknown:

Mhmm. You know? Do you really have a 100?   That's impressive, dude. You're probably the biggest PayNIM follower person ever.  

[02:27:08] Unknown:

I mean, you don't have to tell us, but they'll hold details. But I I mean, if anybody's gonna have a good experience, it's Thank you, Ergo. Yeah. Do do you know how many pain in tips I've had since that Twitter thread where I gained all this,   things, all this?  

[02:27:22] Unknown:

2. Yeah. Exactly. Because they're all stacking, man, and and I don't blame them.   I think we can fix that. We'll find a way to fix that. But No. If you're already if you're already following him on fucking paying him, like, fucking pay this guy. Give him a give him buy him buy him a drink.   Forget about drinks for me. Buy buy him a drink.   I'm I'm I I you know, all the hate all the hate, I'll I'll tell you, way more on lightning than anything else. People love lightning.  

[02:27:57] Unknown:

Yeah. I almost got banned before.  

[02:28:00] Unknown:

Yeah. They really like lightning. They'll they'll they'll pay you on lightning.   But PayNim's   we we need we need we need multiple wallet support. We need at least, like, one good,   iPhone wallet to support it.   If we have if we have one good iPhone wallet to support it,   people have used it. I I I think I think Bitcoin as a donation medium   is, like, a very easy use case. Like, people want,   and when we see people in the developed world that they can't pay for their health care and shit, which is sad as fuck, but,   like, they need an easy way to just accept donations and not have to deal with KYC.  

And we don't have that for them.   And I I would go to the Monero stands. I mean, I the the easiest way to privately accept Bitcoin is to just accept as Monero   and   and then cross transfer it in. Like, you post a Monero address, you don't have to deal with that shit. You're gonna get chastened   for that. You're gonna get canceled now. Yeah. Well, I'm live. So, I mean, I can't edit that out. So here we are, freaks. Oh, they If if 2 hours to hear that part.   Freaks, keep in mind that if if you're in the chat right now and you don't give me shit in the chat room,   you're you're complicit.  

Yeah. But, I mean, it's true and it's fine. It's it is what it is.   Let's get Jack to add pain in him to strike. Yes. 100%. Fucking pressure him to do it.   Make it happen.   So we've been 2 and a half hours in.   It seems the freaks have no more questions for us of value,   and I love you all.   I appreciate ergo. Fuck Monero up, You know? There we go. It will probably trend to 0. I'm not saying it won't trend to 0, but I'm,   just mentioning that the easiest way to accept Bitcoin privately is is with the Monero address. That's all I'm saying.   And,   no. I just appreciate you guys. Thank you for joining us for   episode   2   of   Sidwell   Dispatch.  

I keep reading the comments, so it's gonna fuck with me.   But   I I appreciate you guys joining us. I appreciate all the work you've done towards Bitcoin. I appreciate all the freaks that have joined us.   And next week, I have a very good fucking pair joining us.   Slightly worse than this pair, but it is gonna be it's gonna be a good one. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. So definitely stay tuned and and and join for that. Thank you, Ergo. Thank you, Bitcoin q and a.   And,   you know, I I just I look forward to just, like, dunking on the all the Bitcoin deniers with you guys.  

[02:30:54] Unknown:

Well, thanks for having us, Matt. I really enjoyed this one.  

[02:30:58] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolute pleasure. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Matt. It's really fun.  

[02:31:23] Unknown:

Fly me to the moon.   Let me play up there with those stars.   Let me see what life is like   on   Jupiter   and Mars.   In other words,   hold   my   In other words,   darling,   kiss  

[02:31:53] Unknown:

me.  

[02:31:55] Unknown:

Fill my heart with song. Let me swing   for forevermore.   You are all I long for. All I wish   and adore.   In other words,  

[02:32:12] Unknown:

please   be true.  

[02:33:36] Unknown:

Love you.