Citadel Dispatch

Share on social media:

EPISODE: 0.1.9

BLOCK: 680852

PRICE: 1823 sats per dollar

TOPICS: bitcoin hardware

@ketominer: https://twitter.com/ketominer

@nvk: https://twitter.com/nvk

streamed live every tuesday:  

https://citadeldispatch.com

twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch​

bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos

podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch​  

telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch​ 

support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell

stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/

join the chat: http://citadel.chat/

[00:00:00] Unknown:

Retail question is, master of coin, can you tell us anything about Tesla's future plans in digital currency space   or when any such major developments might be revealed?   Sure. Thanks, Martin.   So as I noted in our opening remarks and we've announced previously, so Tesla did   invest 1,500,000,000   into Bitcoin in q one, and then we subsequently sold a 10% stake stake in that. We also allow customers to make   vehicle deposits   and final vehicle   purchases using Bitcoin.   And so where our our Bitcoin story began, maybe just to share a little of the context here,   Elon and I were looking for a place to store cash that wasn't being immediately used,   try to get some level of return on this, but also preserve liquidity,   Particularly as we look forward to the launch of Austin and Berlin and uncertainty that's happening with semiconductors   and port capacity,   being able to access our cash very quickly is super important to us right now.  

And there aren't many traditional opportunities to do this or at least that we found and in talking to others that we could get good feedback on, particularly with yields being so low   and without taking on additional risk or sacrificing liquidity.   And, and Bitcoin seemed at the time and and so far has proven to be,   a good decision,   a good place to place some of our cash that's not immediately being used for daily operations or or maybe not needed till the end of the year   and, be able to get some return on that.   And, you know, I I think one of the key points that I wanna make about our experiences in the digital currency space   is that there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic here. We're certainly watching it very closely at Tesla,   watching how the market develops,   listening to what our customers are saying.  

But, you know, thinking about it from a corporate treasury perspective,   been quite   pleased with how much liquidity there is in in the Bitcoin market. So our our ability to build our first position happened very quickly.   When we did the sale later in March, we also were able to execute on that very quickly. And so as we think about kind of global   liquidity for the business and risk management,   being able to get cash in and out of the market is something that I think is exceptionally important for us.   So we do believe long term in the value of Bitcoin, so it is our intent to hold what we have long term   and continue to accumulate Bitcoin from   transactions from our customers as they purchase vehicles.  

Specifically, with respect to things we may do,   there are things that we're constantly discussing.   We're not planning to make any announcements here. We're watching this space closely.   So when we're ready to make an announcement on this front, if there's one to come, you know, we'll certainly let you all know.  

[00:03:36] Unknown:

Oh, shit, freaks. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday.   It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for our weekly   dispatch. 19 straight Bitcoin Tuesdays so far.   Kind of unbelievable that we've gotten this far so quickly.   Couldn't have done it without you guys. So cheers to all of you that are here. Cheers to all of you that have been here in the past.   Looking forward to doing this every fucking week,   for as long as we can make it happen.   This is Citadel dispatch 19, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open soft source software.   To those joining us from our various audio streams, whether that's our 2 podcast feeds, the Tales from the Crypt podcast feed, and the Citadel dispatch dedicated feed, or from the various podcasting 2 point o apps.  

That intro clip was Tesla's CFO,   AKA Master of Coin, Zach Kirkhorn,   on their   q one earnings call.   Absolutely unbelievable   that that's the kind of conversation that's happening at an S and P 500 company.   Also unbelievable   that the haters tried to make that seem bearish.   It's the most bullish fucking thing I've heard   in in at least weeks. This is Bitcoin land, so we move fast.   Shout out to the ride or die joining us live as always, whether that's Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.   You guys make this chat. You guys make this, this show. You guys make dispatch what it is.   To those that are here, obviously, this is our earlier time slot   because we have Kito joining us from,   from Europe,   I consider this our European time slot, 1700 UTC. So we have our 21 100 UTC, normal time slot,   then we have our 1700 UTC is our European time slot. This is a global show. This is a global movement. It's kinda cool that the live chat,   is is gonna be populated with different freaks,   because of the different time slots. So thank you guys for being here.  

To those counting at home, this is the 3rd time that we've that we've used this European time slot, the 1700 UTC.   Shout out to daddy Warbits on Twitter   at daddy warbits.   It comes to my attention that some of you freaks didn't even realize, but we had a giveaway last week courtesy of daddy warbits.   It was announced after the outro music, so a lot of you missed it.   We had a winner on Twitter, and we had a winner in our sphinx tribe. The Sphinx tribe actually took, like, 3 days before the winner actually came. Someone actually,   you know, responded to the to the queue, which was you had to say, Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, Matt.  

And both those winners got free tickets to Bitcoin 2021 courtesy of Daddy Warbits. And those tickets have massive resale value. So,   shout out to him for providing them free to the freaks. That's pretty cool. And it was his idea to do it at the end of the outro music,   and incorporate the sphinx tribe so that the rider dies were the ones who got it. So that's really cool. The sphinx tribe is now over 200 people, 200 freaks.   Very active community over there. So if you haven't made it, consider joining.   And just in general, I just wanted to thank all the freaks that have been supporting dispatch.  

It's pretty fucking cool. I wanna keep this ad free and sponsor free. So so your support means a ton,   especially the freak that just randomly dropped a 100 k sats into into the tip and dot me   wallet with no message.   Freaks, you can leave a message if you want.   Either way, it is very much appreciated.   With all that said, what else do I have? I redesigned citadel dispatch.com.   So now all of the important links are there. You can also easily support the show,   using Bitcoin there. You can also easily join the Sphinx tribe   through that website as well. And then me and Wiz have been working on a little project that we're excited to announce, and that's bitcointv.com,   which every episode of Citadel dispatch,   so far has been hosted there, and every future episode will be as well. You can find links to that at citadel dispatch.com.  

Completely uncensored over there. I don't have to worry about takedown requests.   YouTube's just constantly fucking with my archives.   Twitch doesn't keep archives. So you know, at any moment, you can get the full back catalog   of Citadel dispatch over at bitcointv.com.   So shout out for to Wiz   for doing that,   hosting the Citadel servers over there. He's gonna be on next week. I don't know who he's gonna be on with yet. I haven't decided, but that should be a fucking fantastic show. That'll be at the normal time again. So 21 100 UTC. So check that out.   I know I have a lot of shout outs here. Oh, one last thing.  

I stumbled into,   the Apple Podcasts   app, and, apparently, there's a shit coiner over there who doesn't like the show because we only focus on Bitcoin. So   if you are a freak that owns an Apple phone, consider searching Citadel Dispatch in your in the podcast app and   leaving a good review.   It it is appreciated.   With all that said,   I got my 2 good friends here, Kita Miner and NVK. NVK, you all know,   is, you know, massive return guests here at Citadel Dispatch. It's very good to have them again.   Keydominer,   I've been trying to get on this fucking show since the beginning. He kept putting me off. He said he said, Matt, you know, if we do it 3 weeks in the future, we do it at 1700 UTC. I can do it. So I held him to that, and here we are. We finally have him. Kito, what's up? Say hi to the freaks.  

[00:09:13] Unknown:

Hey. What's up, freaks? Thanks for having me.  

[00:09:16] Unknown:

MVK, you wanna say hi to the freaks so they can remember your voice?  

[00:09:20] Unknown:

Hello.  

[00:09:22] Unknown:

I need a robot voice for this thing.  

[00:09:25] Unknown:

And,   just to reiterate,   because I kinda just missed that,   Cheetah Miner is the cofounder,   of   Noddle,   which is a home node,   and they also now have Nodl Cloud.   Freaks might remember last week, I mentioned that our   long standing,   tails from the crypt node stacking sats, if you start stacking sats on one dot ml   one ml.com,   has now been moved to Nauta Cloud, and the minimum   has been minimum channel size has been reduced to 500 k sats. So now that fees are cleaning up,   consider opening a channel there. It's well connect   I've already balanced channels manually with 2 freaks who did it. So shout out to them for getting their shit done. And, you can reach me on Telegram or Keybase if you wanna manually   balance that out.  

So with all that said, I mean, we're gonna start with the focus on Bitcoin hardware,   and then we're just gonna, in proper dispatch fetch fashion,   just constantly, you know, just just go from there. We're just gonna meander around.   And I guess before we even get to that, I mean, let's just you know, everyone loves you know, I know we're all in this in it for the tech, but,   this, this week just reminded me of 2017. Like, it's pretty crazy.   You know, I, like, teased for the the dispatch announcement on on Twitter. I teased that,   one of the topics was gonna be that it's bear hunting season.  

It just feels like all of a sudden, like, you know, we we the price dumped a little bit, and everyone just got super bearish.   And   I was kinda waiting for this to happen because it happened so often in 2017. And meanwhile,   here we are, you know, we're probably sitting around the same price that dispatch was last week.   So you guys have any thoughts on that? MBK, you have any thoughts on that?  

[00:11:19] Unknown:

I mean, how can anybody be   bearish where Bitcoin is over $50,000?   I mean,   you know, that just sink in a bit. Right? It's like, it's a project that's only 10 years old. It's over a $1,000,000,000,000,   and we have   essentially every single Bitcoin meme has permeated   mainstream   where,   you know, where you have   like, you know, fortune 5 100 buying 6.15   Bitcoin.   You have,   you know, CFOs being described as master of coin.   You know, like NFL players asking to get their salaries paid in Bitcoin.   I think, I think bitcoin has arrived.   To be a bear on this is pretty silly.  

Anybody who understands how,   like, treasuries work in in any sort of, like, bigger entity   understands that they're gonna have rebalancing   sort of policies,   sort of to keep everybody,   you know, to keep shareholders off their ass, to keep, you know, things going and also to keep the treasuries healthy with cash flow, knows that all these entities   are gonna rebalance, dump,   you know,   10 to 30% of their positions depending on the on the on the asset,   appreciation.   Right? So as Bitcoin pumps,   they're gonna dump,   and it makes perfect sense because that's what, a rational actor does,   in a in a cash flow need position. Right?  

Remember, these guys are, like, not people, right, that can just save. They need cash flow. They're not people.   Yeah. I mean, like, it's like it's a it's a corporate entity. Right? Like, they they're a company. They have cash flow needs.  

[00:13:13] Unknown:

Did you update bitcointreasuries.org?  

[00:13:15] Unknown:

Nah. Not yet. I'm waiting for the numbers to come out. They didn't give any hard numbers, really.  

[00:13:20] Unknown:

Yeah.   I What what what MBK is referring to is,   so they so so Tesla, S and P 500 company, bought $1,500,000,000   worth of Bitcoin.   So that's $1,500,000,000   more Bitcoin than   overwhelming majority of companies and people have.   And they sold a small portion of it,   maybe, like, a month and a half or 2 months later.  

[00:13:45] Unknown:

What? I think they sold 9% of the the ATH.  

[00:13:49] Unknown:

Right. But   but the price pumped a shit ton as well. So, presumably, they're holding over $2,000,000,000 worth of Bitcoin Mhmm. Conservatively   speaking.   And and as as NVK said, they changed the name of the CFO to master of coin. So this idea that people are saying it's bearish is a   kind of I kind of love it, to be honest. Like, this is this is, like, where I thrive. I don't like when everyone agrees with me. I don't want CNBC to agree with me. I want CNBC to tell us that we're that   we're going down to 0,   and I I, you know, I wanna trade against that. That that's, like, where I, like, feel comfortable.  



[00:14:24] Unknown:

Remember. Right? Tesla,   bought their position in Bitcoin.   So, like, at at the ATH, they would have been at 2.5x.   So 250%   appreciation on their Bitcoin position. Right? This was their most profitable quarter ever, I'm pretty sure. Well, I mean, it's the only time they made a profit.   I think they made more profit from Bitcoin than they ever made from selling anything.  

[00:14:51] Unknown:

That's crazy. They made more profit than than they've they've made on card made on this one little Bitcoin sell. Yeah.   Like, what do you think, Kito? Like, there's a lot of  

[00:15:04] Unknown:

Are you bearish, Kito? Yeah. I I I think, like, they're just using Bitcoin to hedge on their other businesses.   That's all.   I I'm sincerely   not bearish or bullish. I'm just using Bitcoin in, in the everyday life of Nodal because we have to we only get Bitcoin, and we have to pay our supplies in fiat.   So I I'm usually setting up the worst moment and and get them at the highest price. So You don't accept credit card at Nautilus? No. We still don't.   It's a work in progress.   We need a company for that, first of all. We don't have that yet.   So,   yeah, anyway and, yeah, so last week, I ended up rebuying something,   in the deep when which I just sold to pay a supplier and then paid him a few days later.  

So no. What what's what's really a pain for us is the fees, the transaction fees because   we are managing   a ton of lightning channels. We are opening and closing channels daily.   And, recently, we   we just can't work anymore.  

[00:16:13] Unknown:

Oh, we gotta talk about this because this is something we were talking about last week. We had about, you know, over an hour discussion about this, and I think it's something that people,   dismiss is this this idea of dealing with lightning in a high transaction fee environment.   Before I do that, I just wanted to say, I'm pretty excited about this show because   you guys both produce Bitcoin hardware, Bitcoin products that I enjoy, I appreciate, I use.   And I think it's very unique in the space that, you know,   I I bought the products from you. I've never shilled a ref link of either of yours. You've never been my sponsors, and I think you're both best in class. So cheers to both of you guys,   for for building such great products,   And and especially, like, n v   keto, like, that's fucking crazy that you're running a Bitcoin only business,   with no fiat. I I don't know.  

I don't think there's, like I I I can't think of another company off the top of my head that only accepts Bitcoin and and does accept fiat.  

[00:17:12] Unknown:

We tried that in 2014. We gave up.  

[00:17:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's why my call  

[00:17:18] Unknown:

The price just kept on going down.   So, like, we had to just, like it was updating the price too much on the shopping cart. So it just, like, fuck it. We're good in the nominating fee. The overwhelming majority of people,  

[00:17:30] Unknown:

but when they buy Coin Kai products, they pay with credit card. Right?  

[00:17:34] Unknown:

No.   Actually,   it depends on which direction the price is going.   It's normally a 30, 70 sort of split, but it could be on the other side. No. It could be on the other side as well. It could be Bitcoin or it could be, credit card. It really depends on the price, direction.  

[00:17:51] Unknown:

That's interesting. So I guess in practice, we could just call that, like, 5050.  

[00:17:54] Unknown:

Yeah. It's pretty much. Yeah. On our side, first few big price changes, we were, like, anticipating people will start buying less or more after the price change. And usually what happens is, like, price goes up big time. People are buying more models. Price price goes down. People are buying more models. So,   I I guess since we don't accept Fiat,   many people just exchange at the moment of buying   anyway.  

[00:18:21] Unknown:

Yeah. For us, it's more like if the price is going up, people start getting scared, right, that now their money's worth something, their Bitcoin's worth something, so they wanna protect it,  

[00:18:31] Unknown:

with their cold cards. And then It's a way to cash out without KYC.  

[00:18:36] Unknown:

Yeah. But and then there is also,   like, all the the new people into the space. Right? When the when the price really pumps, not like, you know, midweek pump. I'm talking about, like, when the price ATH is then you see the all the the the new people into Bitcoin that Like 2020 so far.   No. No. No. The the the this this last ATH,   had,   quite a bit of   quite a bit of traffic in.   I I don't know. It's actually all over the place. And then when there's sales, of course, we will buy a ton.  

[00:19:09] Unknown:

We we find this cycle. I've this cycle   whenever my   my,   whenever I have new corners that I know from   my life, and they come to me and they say, what should I do? I'm just   I'm there there's no more, like, pussy footing around. I'm just telling them, you know, you gotta go straight to cold card and running your own using your own node, and I've just fucking   there's there's no more, like, treasure ledger, hold your hand bullshit, like, just fucking just fucking go for it. So at least I've sent at least 5 or 6 new corners over to to buy an Uncle Jim bundle,   over the last month and a half, you know, anecdotally.  



[00:19:49] Unknown:

Now we we sell a lot of those,   and then there's all the other stuff. Right? Like, the seed plate.   It's, like, cheap and good, so, like, people buy a lot of those, and then fuck. The block clock meaning is sort of, like, a little bit of a  

[00:20:03] Unknown:

a black swan there in sales. Right? The Moscow time. Yeah. I mean, the the Jack Dorsey cameo must have,   juiced your sales a lot.  

[00:20:13] Unknown:

I mean, we were already back ordered.   Now it's,  

[00:20:17] Unknown:

but the good thing is we're sort of catching up now is we've just said, you know, fuck it. I don't care. Just, you know, increase production. Right? Freaks, NVK has never even given me estimate numbers on any of his products sold Ever. And it's it's been a lifelong goal of mine. So every time I see it, if he's, like, a little bit drunk on Twitter or something, I'll send him a quick Telegram message just, like, fishing for numbers, and I've just never been successful.   I almost I think there was, like, one RHR where I was just pretending I knew the numbers to see if I could trigger him to say in the numbers and that that You know, I find that in Bitcoin space, there's nothing to be gained from releasing numbers.  

[00:20:51] Unknown:

You're just telling your competitors,   right, how much you're selling   and how much, you know, they're gonna, like,   like,   go fud your product.  

[00:21:05] Unknown:

What MBK is really telling you is that they don't really sell any cold cards. There's very few, and he's just ashamed of his numbers. So he just doesn't wanna let him know. Yeah. No. We we don't sell anything.  

[00:21:16] Unknown:

It's actually cold card is a myth.   It's actually a calculator.   Nobody has ever received one. All the pictures you see online,   it's all fake.  

[00:21:26] Unknown:

It's just one big conspiracy.  

[00:21:28] Unknown:

Mhmm.   I'll say, though, that you could assume that   every single real Bitcoiner   has one.  

[00:21:38] Unknown:

Because if you don't have one, you're not a real Bitcoiner?  

[00:21:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean but real Bitcoiners have more than one anyways.  

[00:21:44] Unknown:

I have so many. I still have 5 of your shitty m k ones  

[00:21:48] Unknown:

that just were unusable, but then I I have 3 of them Do you know how much those are gonna be worth for the secondary market of collectibles?  

[00:21:56] Unknown:

I just like to love how old I was. How many I have.  

[00:22:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, just to, just like aside from the ones that he bought, there is also the ones that I sent him.   Yeah. I I mean, like, everybody knows. Right? It's like, if you work on open source and you need a hardware wallet,   like, to to test wallets or to do anything, like, essentially, we just send, like, you know, more than one for free.  

[00:22:21] Unknown:

What a man.   I just wanna do a quick shout out. Someone said in the comments, and they were very right. The comments have gone by quickly, so I forget who specifically said it.   But Citadel 21 also is Bitcoin only.   Yeah.   If if you think of any other Bitcoin only nonfiat accepting companies, feel free to just throw them in the live chat.  

[00:22:46] Unknown:

Actually, do you have to be nonfiat to be Bitcoin only, or is fiat tolerated in this in the I think I don't think I don't think it's a wise  

[00:22:57] Unknown:

like,   if you can take,   Fiat, you should because you're gonna increase your sales.   And that's gonna prevent you from selling Bitcoin because you're gonna just use the Fiat cash flow, which you're gonna have to need anyways.  

[00:23:11] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. Totally. And you can always convert the fiat into Bitcoin.  

[00:23:16] Unknown:

Exactly. So that's what we did. We bought the dip at Queen Kite. We bought every fucking dip,   and and and, you know, we've been doing that for, like, years. Right? So it's like it's   it's nice that, like, most people   that are our customers know that, like,   when they pay us in Bitcoin,   we're also holding the price up because we don't sell if if unless we absolutely need to because of cash flow.   It's like we just don't sell Bitcoin.  

[00:23:45] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, this is like a narrative that I've been talking about lately. It's like, you know, like 2015,   2014 was like the year of, like, trying to get merchant adoption. That was bullshit merchant adoption where, like, they were all using BitPay, and they were just automatically converting to to dollars.   So, like, they were just market selling it. And I think, like, this cycle is a cycle   where we should really promote companies   that receive money in Bitcoin and ideally through, like, something like BTC pay server and that has no third parties, and they just hold as much of the Bitcoin as possible.   And those are the types of companies that I'm happy support, and I think that is becoming a little bit more feasible with stuff like Strike because Strike is, like, almost a reverse payment processor. You know? It's,   you know, Key2Miner might not have a relationship with traditional finance, you know, to have,   to to accept debit cards or whatever. But if if it's a strike user on their side, they're using a debit card. They don't really realize, and and Keter's getting the Bitcoin that he wants. Right?  



[00:24:44] Unknown:

Yep. It's, there is a lot of customers of ours that do use strike, to buy our stuff. So, essentially, it's just buy and replace. Right?   Spend and replace.  

[00:24:54] Unknown:

Exactly.   And and just, Kito, I mean, I guess we can call Bitcoin only,   Fiat too, but I just   I I the the point was that I was specifically calling out the fact that you guys have have never accepted Fiat, which I think is just commendable. I fucking love it. I just love that you're   you know, it's it's probably not the best business decision, but I I love that it's all in. And, I mean, look, at the end of the day It will happen one day, and it it might be sooner than than we thought.   At the end of the day, you can't even sell more Nautilus right now. Right? Like, you're completely   you've sold as many Nautilus as possible. Your your demand is higher than your supply.  



[00:25:31] Unknown:

Yeah. So what what what happens that's a that's a good point. What what happened recently is our supply order got canceled the day it was supposed to be delivered,   because of the silicon shortage in China. So some chips,   are on back order on the boards we are buying, and and the production   slowed down because of that.   So what we did now is we order directly from the manufacturer,   in China or in Shenzhen.   And, hopefully, we will receive I I just got the notification that 2 packages left by UPS,   just today,   and they should arrive on Thursday. And after checking what's inside, we'll be able to announce some hard dates for for the deliveries and reopen the orders.  

We we prefer to close the orders,   than to keep,   keep having people back ordering just because we we just we couldn't give any date, any hard date, until   probably Thursday this week.  

[00:26:39] Unknown:

Yeah. The the the the the the supply shortage for parts is pretty crazy.   We we got to a point where it's like we do, like, reasonable parts management,   but, you know, it's still, like, longer lead times and, you know, we're, like, we're just some parts were just sort of, like, paying extra,   from secondary market and then,   and then just eating that that loss. But,   it's it's pretty like, I don't think people appreciate how   insane the shortage is on parts for everything.   Yeah. I I bought some boards from importers in Europe for twice the prior the regular price. So there's 2 things going on. Right? One is, like, most suppliers are using this as an excuse to   to charge more, right, even though they have inventory.  

There's a lot of that going on.   The other thing is,   ICs,   like, actual chips, not just passives. Right? So it's not like resistors or or capacitors, not that kind of stuff.   Actual chips.   They,   they they just have too much demand. It's not even that like, COVID slowed them down a little, but it's not really that. It's just that, like, you know, record sales of cars, record sales of boats, record sales of all kinds of electronics, right, the last 2 years.   So they just can't can't build factories fast enough to to deliver it.  

[00:28:03] Unknown:

I mean, Tesla was talking about that their cars, you know, their cars are are,   dealing with the chip shortage. It's like everyone. The fucking ASICs are dealing with the chip shortage.   Are are we are people is this priced in? Like, I'm feeling FOMO. I I, you know, I recently, fortunately, got a new computer.   I already have 2 Nautilus.   I have I'm not gonna say how many cold guards I own.   You know, I'm I'm glad that I'm sitting pretty with all this fucking hardware,   and even I'm feeling FOMO. Like, do we are are we concerned are you guys concerned that this is going to get significantly worse? I feel like these types of things don't just solve themselves overnight. They tend to be lagging type of situations.  

[00:28:45] Unknown:

I don't think you get much worse than this, but what I'm gonna say is   if you need hardware,   especially   Bitcoin hardware,   and,   you should be buying yesterday   and just wait a little longer with some patience.   Because if we have another ATH  

[00:29:05] Unknown:

Which we will.  

[00:29:07] Unknown:

Like soon. Bear. Right?   It's gonna take a long time for you to get it. So,   seriously, it's like just order and and, you know, just wait. Forget that you order. It's gonna come. You know? Like, sometimes it comes in 48 hours. Sometimes it comes in 2 weeks depending,   you know, how UPS, FedEx, and all those guys are dealing with COVID too.   We have stuff in stock aside from Block Lock Mini, which we're making as we ship.   It's just that, you know, there is also the the the couriers. They're all screwed with COVID.  

[00:29:42] Unknown:

Especially by you.  

[00:29:44] Unknown:

Right.   And,   so anyways yeah. So, like, just just order and wait. I mean, it's like, who cares if it's gonna take 2 weeks instead of, like, 2 days. Right? It got so bad in 2017.  

[00:29:56] Unknown:

Like, people could just expect that it's it's like the retail the retail wave hasn't even really gotten here yet. I know you guys think, especially if it's your 1st cycle, you think it's it's happened. How's it started? They're gonna hit us so fucking hard, and it's gonna be almost impossible to get the good products. You're gonna have to, like, settle with with with worse inferior shit, basically.   Well, you do have it now. And and just and just think about it in your head. Like, you know, I I think nowadays,   especially my generation,   we've gotten so enamored or complacent with this idea of, like, 2 day free shipping from Amazon   that when they see something that has a longer lead time that says, you know, like, oh, you're not gonna get it for 3 weeks or 4 weeks or something, They tend to put it off and procrastinate,   and they just don't buy it because they're like, oh, it's not gonna come that quickly.  

But it's it's very simple logic. The sooner you order it, the sooner you will get it. And it's just better to just fucking buy it and just get it fucking done with, and it'll come when it comes.  

[00:30:55] Unknown:

You know,   last the last bull market, right,   trends,   Ledger, which is, like, sort of let's say that they're the biggest one for sales numbers   because they have a $60   device. I mean, besides cold card because we don't know the numbers. Well, no. No. No. Let them have the top. I I just let them have the top. I don't care.   They were, I think, like, a 2, 3 month back order.   So, like, people don't appreciate that when the wave comes, it comes, and there is no amount of us preparing inventory can fill it.   Like, it it gets pretty crazy.   So,   seriously,   order   because you're gonna need it when that BTC is 10 times the price.  

Right? So that would be $500,000.   You're gonna sit very scared with that sitting on your phone wall.  

[00:31:56] Unknown:

So, Keto, what do you what do you think about people that want novels? What should they do? How are you handling that?  

[00:32:03] Unknown:

Well, they can't order or preorder anyway right now because we we don't want to risk having   more orders than what we can make.   Really wait until the end of the week. We should have good news for you. Why don't you just I feel like I feel like if you provide proper communication  

[00:32:21] Unknown:

when they order, people want just wanna get on a wait list. Like, why not allow them to  

[00:32:26] Unknown:

Yeah.   Most people said that,   we had,   of of the latest,   2 months of orders, we probably had 2 requests for refunds because of too much waiting.   But, yeah, most people accept waiting.  

[00:32:42] Unknown:

Yeah.   You know, it's like   I think the biggest problem is, like, eager noobs   that just came into the space   that, like, you know, are so used to Amazon   that like,   come on. Right? And, like, it's have you never ordered something outside of Amazon?   I I know, like, 50 different retailers that I buy from, right, that are not Amazon,   that are completely, like, unrelated to electronics,   that when I buy from them, it might take 2, 3 weeks to come. Some stuff like you buy takes 3 months.  

[00:33:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't buy on Amazon anymore if I can help it. Like, I've I've converted the majority of my stuff to try and try and go more direct to manufacturer.   I I think,   any freaks out there that that are capable of doing that should do that instead. It's it's just better for the ecosystem as a whole as well, and you get a better deal usually.   Yep.   Just because you don't have like, Amazon's gonna take a 30% cut if you go through Amazon. So Not just that. I mean, they stop Well, I actually garbage.  

[00:33:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. You you you will find the same   AliExpress products just with a premium. But on the other hand, I don't know how the situation is in the US. But in Europe,   if you buy from Amazon, Amazon is responsible for providing the warranty and   and do something in case of a problem. So that's probably that here. To do that.  

[00:34:12] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's Europe specific. We don't have that here. You you guys like to impose,   burdensome regulation on US companies,   and our government's just run by them. So,   the,   so so before I mean, we've I guess, let's continue talking about Bitcoin hardware, then we'll go to the lightning conversation.   The so Bitcoin hardware, you guys both produce   top end Bitcoin hardware in the space.   You know,   Bitcoin is an interesting beast. Right? Like, you have   in in other industries,   we've seen a consolidation.   It's it's dominated by the top tech companies.   You know, there's a handful of tech companies, the the Apple, Googles, Microsofts,   you know, and then, like, the the second tier, but top still, like, the Sony's and Panasonics and stuff like that.  

In the Bitcoin space, all the big players haven't come in yet. You know, the Samsungs,   none of them have come in yet.   So   it's a very interesting dynamic, but at the same time, you also have,   increased trust   concerns. Right? You have increased security concerns.   Don't it's a completely different ballgame almost   than mainstream hardware.   How do you   navigate that? How do you like, to someone who's thinking about maybe   joining the fray of the Bitcoin hardware space, like, how should they approach it? To to consumers   who are looking to buy Bitcoin hardware? What are the things they should consider that are different from, like, buying a phone?  



[00:35:48] Unknown:

Right? Like I I I think the the big players such as Samsung, that's a very good example,   are silently watching and and just hiding,   right now.   I don't know if you remember that, but Ledger is partially owned by Samsung now.  

[00:36:05] Unknown:

How much they invested?   Yeah.   That makes sense because Ledger is, like, the most corporate of all the big But, also, like, I I think  

[00:36:15] Unknown:

people have to realize that, like, Bitcoin now   is the equivalent of, like,   us selling apple twos,   right, in the first, like, 15 years of, like, computers. Right?   So   it's still very early. There's still gonna be a lot of different things being tried and failed or succeed in the market. Things will all look different. Remember how phones used to all look different?   And then eventually, they sort of found their, like, their final form that that's the form that everybody wants.   It's not dissimilar. Right? So, like,   and then, like, you know, most hardware makers don't have pleads as their customers. So they don't have people, like, taking pictures and asking if that grain of sand inside the device   is a a Chinese controlled chip. Right?  

So   we have completely different   sort of,   we're still gonna have a niche market of paranoid,   awesome people   that want, open source, that want verifiable,   they want, like, a a bunch of sets of things that, like, major manufacturers are never gonna be able to fulfill.   Right?   And then and then you're gonna definitely see consolidation on the on the more sort of, like, noob consumer,   consumer   oriented products where people don't care about verification and all that stuff. Right? That's where sort of like Ledger is.   I think they're gonna do very well.  

But, yeah, it's just it's just different. Right?   Our customers are never gonna be buying from Samsung.  

[00:37:54] Unknown:

Yeah. I I I I completely agree with the part where you say that it's like the Apple twos and,   and out there's of of Bitcoin. Like,   the the most probably the the   the TV show that gives you the most accurate idea of how a Bitcoin company looks like right now is how can catch fire 1st season.  

[00:38:17] Unknown:

Yeah.   The the beginnings of computers built in in your garage and That's right. And the and the competitors punching each other in conferences   and, like, it's like it's the early days of stuff being vented.   Right?   I mean, we don't even know, like,   what hardware wallets are gonna look like or nodes are gonna look like, you know, in the future.   We don't even have   custom made chips just for the stuff yet. Right?   It's still very, very early, and I think people need to understand that, And there's gonna be a lot of iterating as well. Right?   You you you know, nobody in their right mind is buying harder than was, like, Bitcoin harder than was sort of, like,   created, you   know,   5, 7 years ago anymore. Right? It's, like, unsafe. So, like, you just keep on iterating it.  

And then eventually, you get to a point where stuff is like, okay. You know, we've reached now the point of diminishing returns, and it's just incremental.  

[00:39:15] Unknown:

Yeah. And on the on the absence of big players on the node market, I think   it's just that this market is too small at least in a per in appearance.   They won't enter for 10,000   units market. They will enter when it will be 1,000,000 per year. Or That's right.  

[00:39:34] Unknown:

I mean, I just wanna jump in here real quick. First of all, someone in the comments is ask asking how to spell novel, which means   that the,   you know, the 20,000 plus people coming into the podcast feeds probably also don't know how to spell it. It's nodl.it.   That's nodl.it   is the domain name.   So go check them out.   On the node topic,   is there is there an issue, like,   especially with Taproot activation. Right?   There's all this talk about which client you run, stuff like that.   Do do we agree that I I guess I guess Enrique called did you call them Austin crowd? Is that what you called them?  

[00:40:17] Unknown:

No.   Like  

[00:40:19] Unknown:

The the there's gonna be there's gonna be a group of, like, hyper   like, there there's there's always gonna be demand for niche. Right? Like, niche, hyper customizable,   open source, like,   trust minimized type of hardware, like, is like Samsung's never gonna be able to make a node   that that fits   probably the the majority of the dispatch demographic. Right? Like the majority of the dispatch demographic is never gonna buy   a Samsung node that There is there's polymorphic. UI.  

[00:40:50] Unknown:

To to the node thing is that so there there's people need to understand that running a node means squat, doesn't mean anything. Right?   Self validating with that node, your own transactions, that's where it's at. So there's sort of like, I see like a split   in the node sort of need   or you could even say market. Right? You're gonna have people   who just need to make transactions, so they're gonna just run Bitcoin core, which is a node on their laptops,   and what they're gonna do is they're just gonna sync every time they need to make a transaction.   Right? Because they don't need to leave that thing running 24 hours. There's no   it does nothing.  

Now   what are you gonna have on the other end is, like, all the folks doing lightning, all the folks that want to do relay,   like mining. Right? So those need nodes 24 hours a day.   And and I think that market   is unlikely to be served   by,   a customized   something from Samsung. It's it's more like a general purpose computer.   But then there's gonna be niche shops like Nodal,   who's   essentially gonna service the market by providing them a turnkey solution because they still need it.  

[00:42:06] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, these, like, big miners and and people who needed it   who really need the 247 running node,   for their business,   they will probably just buy a big ass Dell server or and and run that on That's on video.   That that that's also why we we offer that not very clearly, but we we do offer that as well,   to our customers. If you if you are, let's say, Walmart and you want a full node solution to run your back end,   we can provide you with a with a custom cluster of servers that we'll build for you, install for you, and ship,  

[00:42:46] Unknown:

or just install locally if needed. Are you guys offering the custom? Sorry. Are you guys offering the HSMs yet?  

[00:42:53] Unknown:

No. No. No. Not yet.  

[00:42:56] Unknown:

So that's not that's separate from navaildot   nodal cloud. Right? That's,   that's like you're actually sending them the rack server. Yeah. Nodal cloud is hosted in our infrastructure  

[00:43:05] Unknown:

and what we used to call Nodal rack and which currently doesn't really have a commercial name is what we we ship to the client.  

[00:43:13] Unknown:

So so   would you,   I mean, you wanna go over, like, the trust trade offs between those 3 different,   I mean, I guess, there's 2 different models. Right? You have you have the hardware at home,   you have the the hardware at home or your office, whether that's a Nodl   1 or Nodl Dojo that is, like, sitting in your closet.   And then you have,   the, like, the Nodl rack, which is the same trust trade off, presumably, but instead, it's for, like, a larger company. And then you had the Nautil cloud. Do you wanna talk about the difference between controlling your own hardware versus using something like Nautle Cloud?  

[00:43:53] Unknown:

Yeah. So but but I'm not that dissimilar.   If you think from a from a perspective of what kind of attacks can be made against this,   this hardware or   or hosted solution.   Basically,   if you're on the hardware somewhere, the worst you risk is the physical stealing of the hardware.   And if you're running it,   in our   or somebody else's infrastructure,   the worst you risk is   stealing of the virtual machine by the holster or by,   or by a hacker.   We currently run on,   on Intel CPUs, which don't offer memory encryption per VM, but we are working on switching to the latest generation of AMD EPYC Processors,   which will allow us to have memory encryption with a CPU generated key,   per VM,   and the hypervisor doesn't have access to those keys. So that means that even with   physical access to the server, we can't dump the memory of a virtual machine.  

It costs a lot,   but, ultimately, it's the hardware we we need to be running this service on.   And that that will mitigate almost all the issues because we already have encrypted storage.   The user   is the only person who has the password for the storage encryption.   And   this way, we will also have the,   the memory encryption.  

[00:45:33] Unknown:

For for the models you sell,   like, the consumer grade stuff,   I I really see a future,   like, very soon where   people are gonna be using those as their cosign devices. Right? Because, you know, you can essentially roll your own Casa. Like, there there is no like,   if you're not, like, a fit for that product, it's a good product.   But if you're not a fit for that product, for privacy reasons or whatever,   there is no reason anymore why you can't just have a a a high availability   model,   right, that you access over Tor, and you just, like, go and cosign your transaction, right, on a  

[00:46:14] Unknown:

Well,   let's just before Kito jumps in here, I mean, the privacy concerns are very real. Right? Like, you're using Casa's node. They know exactly   how much Bitcoin you have, and they have connections to whatever personal information you've shared with them, whether that's,   I mean, the big one is is would be, like, the addresses. They had they have your IP addresses. They have your email address. They have   they say they purge it, but they have your billing addresses, stuff like that. Right? And they're able to see your transactions and your balances. That's a privacy concern. But, Matt, like, the the way I look at this is, like, both cousin and chain services.  

[00:46:50] Unknown:

Right. See, like, if you're running a business, right, or a family office or or something that is already full k y c'd because you have to do corporate taxes Then there's no trade off. No. There there really well, there there is some counterparty consequences to that. Right? Because they can still leak that data to some bad guy who wants to come after you or whatever.   But,   you know,   ultimately, like, I mean,   they're essentially providing a good service for that. Right? It's already keyless.  

[00:47:17] Unknown:

I would argue that there's there's a positive   part of that aspect too. Right? Like, if you're running a company, it's kinda nice having a third party   that's also witness to your books. Right?   Especially in, like, Bitcoin land and in in the current state of Bitcoin land. It's, like, kind of nice   if if there's ever, like, an auditing situation and investors are curious what's going on, it's nice to have a third party   that is that is party to all of those transactions. Right?  

[00:47:44] Unknown:

Kind of. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Right? Because accounting   for,   accounting, like, official accounting is all done in fiat basis anyways. Right?   Right. So at the end of the day, what was the basis cost and what did you sell it for? Right? So all that matters is those, is the the,   the realization events.   So yeah. I mean, yes and no. It it really depends on on on the person, but but, yeah, like, I think what really helps here is that   in in entities,   that have more people. Right? Having a third party,   deal with security management helps a lot.  



[00:48:27] Unknown:

Right. Because because you get to offload a little bit of liability. They, like, deal Yep. They hold your hand.  

[00:48:33] Unknown:

No. Also, like, they help you protect against your own employees. Right? Right. Depending   on what kind of setup you have.  

[00:48:42] Unknown:

But for the average freak, the average freak, you're at if if you use one of these 3rd party hosted multisync services,   you're adding a new privacy   compromise   vulnerability. I don't you're adding you're you're adding a a It's a paid off. Yeah. You're adding a third party that that knows your transactions and your balances. Right?   And   and, specifically,   you know, that that information can leak, it can get hacked, it can be compelled to be handed over.   You know,   this has been famously called the 61 02 Bitcoin show as well.   61 02, executive order 6102 is when   FDR tried to take people's gold.  

They could presumably pressure these companies into providing balances, stuff like that.   It just it it it   it's pretty hard to use Bitcoin privately   as an individual already, but especially if you have to trust the 3rd party with that information. And then, obviously, you have the other concern of of you're just not using your own node.   And if you wanna be a proper self sovereign Bitcoiner   and you want to follow the rules that you choose when you choose,   you're gonna wanna use your own node, and you can't use your own node with both these services.   So   it's it's something to keep in mind, and   it's something   that NVK   has been working on in terms of trying to make a self sovereign version easier,   with with the feature ck bunker, which is basically allows you to basically take hold card,   connect it to something like the nodal,   and and seamlessly   use it as a signer of a multisig.  

Should we go into that?  

[00:50:33] Unknown:

Sure.   So it's kind of like,   having your own   cosign service. Right? Kinda like having your own Casa.   So,   you you you get your nodal. Right? Because you need a a high availability   computer. Right? So, like, you you want a 247.   Yeah. So you want a computer that's purposely for that,   so and and it's running,   ideally a node. Right?   You don't need to run a node on it, but doesn't hurt.   So anyways, so you have, a c k bunker running on it. Actually, no. You don't need it at all because the   the   the transaction is created by you on your desktop wallet. But, anyways, whatever. So let's say you have Nodo because they they install the the package from from start, so it's turnkey. Turn it on.   You just   add,   a cold card to it via USB, and you put it somewhere.  

You set some policies or whatever you want. And then what happens is you have essentially a multisig between your your cold card in your hand   and and a second or third cold card   that is connected to the node that was signed based on some policy   like maximum,   1 per week or whatever,   and,   and that's really cool, right, because you have essentially a cosign service that is yours that you control,   that nobody has visibility to the coins,   and it's like fairly safe and secure because there's a cold card running on that.   Made a video, a couple of videos I think already on it. So if people wanna understand more about it, I highly recommend going there. Kito, what are your thoughts on this? When are you gonna integrate CK bunker  

[00:52:20] Unknown:

Yeah. You directly into Nava. One of my many late projects.   Hopefully, very soon,   I have everything I need to do that now. So, yeah, it should should happen in the coming weeks.   I just want to make it in a meaningful way, meaning, like,   some level of configurations   through the another UI.   I don't know yet what's possible, what's not.   And, also, I have a prototype of a hosted version of   c k bunker farm. So   let's assume you don't want to have it at home and prefer to have it in a secure data center somewhere.   You could send us your cold card with the policies set on it, and we would just put it in a chassis with a   small   dedicated, server that will be connected to it, and and you will be able to remotely access to double top.  



[00:53:16] Unknown:

Pretty cool.  

[00:53:18] Unknown:

Yeah. Let's make that happen. That sounds fucking dope.  

[00:53:21] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's like it it really is the next, like,   that is the direction. Right? Like, it's gonna take some time to get all this thing done easier,   but   I I cannot see a world where we don't go in that direction.  

[00:53:37] Unknown:

I really like that because   I like this idea of of of user friendly,   UX config like, I I feel like user friendly UX, like, kind of starts with the hardware.   And if we have different,   we can minimize trust   by   having multiple hardware providers interact with each other so that you're not relying on any individual hardware provider,   in a way that   that still prioritizes   UX just like he just like he just said. I mean, I   I go back to thinking, you know, my service final message dot I o. I kept coming to the issue   that I was wondering,   I I kept coming to the issue where it was, like, you know, it's a dead man switch, and the the biggest concern is it's encrypted, so I can't see what it is. But the biggest concern is, do I actually send the message?  

When the time comes, do I send the message? And I could go down a 1000000 different rabbit holes about trying to solve that issue, but it's solved by just having 2 redundant forms of doing that. And then you just you you don't have to trust either one. You just have to trust that one of the 2, like, actually sends it out. And this is kind of a similar situation, right, where you have these 2 pieces of user friendly hardware, you combine them together,   and and you you basically need both of them to collude   to to lose funds. Right?  



[00:55:02] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, you start getting the territory of, like, unless there's bugs,   like, good luck to the bad guy.   I mean, seriously. Right? Right. It becomes   it's not a matter of becoming impossible because nothing is impossible. It's a matter of becoming impractical.   Right? Or or the cost   of either actual cost or or time cost for the attacker becomes completely impractical.  

[00:55:27] Unknown:

And I think you make it difficult enough that they're gonna they're gonna go send someone a phishing text instead. Right? They're not they're gonna go for the lowest hanging fruit. They're not gonna go for  

[00:55:37] Unknown:

I mean, you you shouldn't rely on that, but that's, like, the reality of the situation. Right? Yeah. Well, unless it's a highly targeted attack and the guys will just make whatever they can to get to you   particularly. But, yeah, usually, the attackers are pretty dumb, but they will just  

[00:55:52] Unknown:

be scanning everything and finding the easiest target. I mean, it gets to a point, right, where they're gonna either move on to the next person,   to the next victim, right,   or or or they're gonna have to, like or or you're so so much wealth, so much wealth,   then then it's a different story. Then maybe the cost of attack just becomes so great that they might just, like, you know, they probably just knock on your door and kidnap you. Right?   Like,   no. Seriously. It's like it gets to that point, but then even if they kidnap you,   you know, you don't have,   signing capabilities.  

Right. So,   you   know, that's sort of, like, the goal that we have with cold card in general. It's like, how can we get to a point,   in some setups already there where it's like, there's nothing I can do.  

[00:56:44] Unknown:

This is what I love about both of you guys. This is why this is why I'm a   a very happy customer of of both Nodl and, CoinKite   is because I feel like you guys are both paranoid Bitcoiners along with me. So I I can count on the fact   that I have your paranoia additive on top of my paranoia.   You're actually thinking about these kind of issues.  

[00:57:08] Unknown:

Yeah. It it's,   oh, that's actually a good, a good segue into a feature we're launching.  

[00:57:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Hit us. Okay. So,  

[00:57:18] Unknown:

I'm calling it   seedxor.   It's gonna be seedxor.com.   If you go now there, there's just a picture   and, something saying coming soon for info.   I was like, this was not meant to be announced or preannounced or any of that shit.   It's gonna come Welcome to dispatch.   Yeah. It's gonna probably come on the next firmware version.   We were hoping to do it this week, but, you know, being too swamped, so we'll see.   So so the idea here is   essentially,   what's the problem? The problem is you have a seed backup. What the fuck do you do that seed?   Right? Like, where do you put it? Right?  

Anyone that gets hold of that,   has access to the to the master secret.   Right?   Aside from passphrase and stuff, it's still a problem.   So, you know, you can't put in safe deposit boxes because safe deposit boxes can be a a commandeer. Safe. Right?   You know, if you're clearing name. Yeah. But but, you know, but if you still have some good   custody,   chain of custody. Right? They're not bad. It's just that the trade offs exist.   You know, you don't wanna bury a seed   depending on where because if he gets found, it's a problem.   So so it gets tricky. Right? What do you do with that clear tax secret?  

So,   you know, traditionally, what do we do as computer people? Well, we offer you the encrypted micro SD, so you can put that you know, microSD, and then you put it in safety deposit box or something. Right?   The problem with that is   that is sort of like computer,   it's a computer problem. Right? So you need,   you need a computer to encrypt that or decrypt that or a cold card.   And   and if you put a micro encrypted a micro SD in a safe deposit box, you could still have a an order to produce by a judge that essentially says if you don't decrypt that thing, you go to jail. Well, not in America,   but in the UK, you definitely can. Yeah. But it it depends on the country. It depends on the considerations, but whatever.  

Now what are we doing then? Let's create more plausible, deniable solutions. Right? That's our motto now.   So   what I wanted to do was,   can I create   an encrypted,   metal plate that is human   readable,   right, and is plausible, deniable?   So what do we do?   We essentially get you to generate 2 sets of 24 words,   okay, just like a seed, it's BIP39 based, and then we XOR them together,   and we create a new seed for you that is also 24 words, exactly BIP 39 compliant.   So now you essentially have 3 plates  

[01:00:13] Unknown:

or just 2 plates. We have a single sig with 3 plates.   Exactly.   So And all 3 plates are  

[01:00:22] Unknown:

Ex they look are 39 compliant. You can even load funds on them to be fully plausible.  

[01:00:28] Unknown:

I love  

[01:00:29] Unknown:

it. So so you can roll, you can, you can load   the, you can like   say you have you make a a 2 plates. You're gonna be able to make up to, like, 10 plates or whatever, but, like, let's say you're normal and you do just 2. Right? So you do 2 plates,   each of these plates have,   what we'll call part of the secret. Right? So it's 2 parts, but each of them look like a full,   BIP 3924,   pass   24,   word seed   with checksum, everything. It's it's a literal   BIP 39 proper seed. Right?   And then you can put put 1 in one safe deposit box. You put 1 in another safe deposit box in a different country.   Right? And then and then the cold card   lets you input both,   to calculate   the actual XOR,   XOR seed.  

Right?   Also, if you're this is the key,   like awesome thing about this.   Everybody already has a fucking seed. Right? And you don't wanna move your funds.   So what do you do? Well, with the new firmware, you go into   the specific menu and you're gonna say   split my seed.   So what it's gonna do, it's gonna give you 2 sets of 24 words   to create the 2 plates that are scrambled essentially   so that you can just go and back up that.  

[01:01:53] Unknown:

So we don't have to move our funds. We can No. You don't have If you already have a single sig. Exactly. But if you lose one plate, you lose everything. Right? 61 and 2 is asking. Correct. Correct.  

[01:02:03] Unknown:

It's not it's not shares.   Right. It's,   but but you can still have a normal   seed plate with your actual full seed on it too if you want.   Right? And you can bury that under a lake where it's essentially impossible to get unless you absolutely need to. Right?  

[01:02:22] Unknown:

But that's what we all do. Right? We're all bearing our seed plates under lakes. Yeah. I I had this discussion with a fellow Bitcoin not long ago. Like, okay. I have my   many cold cards with the paper   backup seeds.  

[01:02:36] Unknown:

What the fuck do I do with these papers now? That's exactly the problem that everybody had. So we wanted to solve that problem, like, with plausible deniability.  

[01:02:45] Unknown:

I like that. It gives you a lot of the advantages of multisig, but actually, there's also pause and, like, increased positives. Right? Because multisig, you don't have that plausible deniability element. Like, if I can load up those individual seeds,   then if if you find a plate, you're just gonna think, like, oh, like, I found Matt's coin. Right? And and you'll just be done with it. You won't even think it's a multisig. I mean, unless you listen to Siddle dispatch episode 19,   you won't even think that that's a possibility.  

[01:03:11] Unknown:

Yeah. And listen. You can see just do a normal speed. So you could use this for multi sig. You can use this for with pass phrases. You can do whatever you want.  

[01:03:21] Unknown:

Oh, you see? You can have a multi sig you can have a multi sig in combination with this, and they could be using the same seeds.  

[01:03:27] Unknown:

That's right.  

[01:03:29] Unknown:

This is fun, dude. I like this. This is good.   For the record, I tried to get, NVK to tease this for me, and he wouldn't tease it for me ahead of time. So I'm learning about this live on air for all you guys.  

[01:03:40] Unknown:

Yeah.   So so the the the the the main idea now that we're really focused on with this plausible deniable stuff   is we wanna increase   the attack,   surface complexity for the attackers. Right? We wanna make sure that there's just so an absolute,   like, tsunami   of options   for users   to use.   So an attacker   that is a little bit more sophisticated that can get to you to begin with. Right? He's gonna be aware that if you have a cold car, there is, like, a 100 different permutations   or, like, 300 permutations   of of of ways in which this person could be doing their   their Bitcoin y. Right? So   it's it's essentially overwhelming   one to know. Oh,   come on. I know you have a passphrase, put the passphrase. Right? So so, like, that's not the answer for everything. Right? You you need well, he might have a pass phrase plus this, plus that, plus this, plus that. Right?  

And Right.  

[01:04:43] Unknown:

And and and then Make it as confusing as pop make make make it as the  

[01:04:48] Unknown:

don't make the assumptions easy. Right? Exactly. And and, also, you you'd have, like, rubber funds, right, in in some of these steps as well.  

[01:04:57] Unknown:

So so that you can give something away in case the situation requires to, but in any way, you're exposed to that. And and in the beginning, you mentioned 3 plates. Is there is there there, like, different options where you can choose if it's if it's 2 or 3 or Or 4 or 10. Can you? Yeah.   That's dope.   Okay. I'm a fan. I'm a fan, bro. This is a cool feature. I like this feature.  

[01:05:21] Unknown:

And, like and so when you add this, right, in combination with that, the new,   countdown to brick,   which is my absolute favor.  

[01:05:31] Unknown:

Well, it's already bricked. You brick it ahead of time, but the countdown continues to pretend they still have a chance at breaking it.  

[01:05:38] Unknown:

Exactly. Right?   So so the bad guy so you're telling the bad guy that, hey.   Okay. Fine. I give up. Right? I you you put the pin, but you put a special pin, and that special pin is gonna show the bad guy that it's gonna take 24 hours for you to be able to sign it, right?   And then in the background of that, we are essentially erasing your seed, and   and if he gets to the end of the countdown, it just shows brick.   Right, shows air, so   what's cool about that is,   unlike the normal countdown,   the attacker could try to take the device to a lab afterwards,   and, you know, spend a quarter $1,000,000 trying to get the money out, Right? On this one, if he takes it, the seed was erased.  

So you can say, okay. You know what? Take it with you   24 hours. You know, you put it in a battery pack. You give it to the guy. 24 hours, they're gonna be able to sign it. Right?   It's a brick.  

[01:06:36] Unknown:

I fucking love it.  

[01:06:40] Unknown:

Yes. Speak speaking about complicating things, I I think something is underused as well, like using totally random custom derivation pass.  

[01:06:50] Unknown:

Well, that's that's a little bit you know, I mean,   as an As long as you have proper backup.   Yeah. As someone who's been, like, working on education, like, you know, maybe for pros, but I  

[01:07:02] Unknown:

can't put that in a fucking guide. Well, it's a use a random derivation word. 26 word, basically.  

[01:07:09] Unknown:

Right. It's the 26 word. The 25th word is the passphrase. The 26th word is your random ass derivation path.  

[01:07:15] Unknown:

So I think   at some point,   say,   something like a BIP 39v2   is gonna come at some point because   the problem with BIP 39 is that BIP 39,   it's it's essentially, like, too simplistic. Right? It shouldn't have the derivation path built in. Right? Well, that's what descriptors does.   Right. Right? So descriptors solve that problem. The problem is descriptors are Bitcoin only. Right? We support descriptors, but the other wallets don't because they're all shitcoin companies. Right?  

[01:07:45] Unknown:

But once Can you describe for the freaks derivation paths,  

[01:07:49] Unknown:

like, an easy way? Yeah. So a derivation path is like a 3. Right? Imagine your seed is the root. Right? Nobody can see it. It's under the soil. Right? And then from that, you create a tree,   and and then you have these branches. In each of these branches, you're gonna have different accounts,   but it's all part of the same tree that is part of the same root. But there's, like, infinite branches. Infinite branches. Just like the 3. So, like, if if if you use a nonstandard one It's  

[01:08:18] Unknown:

problem. And compute doesn't improve,   like, ridiculous amounts, like, you're never gonna be able to figure out which branch it was. No. No. You can you can be in an infinite, like,  

[01:08:28] Unknown:

hole. Yeah.   Which people have lost funds that way. I mean, it it becomes so big that is almost the same problem as trying to calculate the private key in the to begin with. Right. Because it's you get infinite numbers. Infinite.  

[01:08:45] Unknown:

This is this is awesome. I'm very excited about your seed. So so to to the to the freaks the freaks that are watching the video,   and I'll I'll remind the I'll remind the freaks listening right now. If you're listening to this audio, you wanna go see what's going on live chat because live chat's fun. You know, you wanna see after the fact. You just go to bitcoin tv.com,   and you can you can see this little dispatch channel. All of the all of our past   shows are on there, including this one.  

[01:09:12] Unknown:

And are you still able to show, like, yeah. Are you are you still able to show screen captured? Like, sorry, screen Yeah.  

[01:09:18] Unknown:

Stuff in the browser? I sent you the link. Yeah. So I I showed the link earlier, but,   I mean, what, the website doesn't really show much right now. Right? No. But, so just just to the to the freaks that are listening,   it's it's seed, s e e d,   xor.com.   So it's it's literally the letter x,   seedxor.com.   SeedXor.  

[01:09:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Xor is a mathematical   calculation. Right. Like, it's like a logic gate.  

[01:09:51] Unknown:

Yeah. That's fucking awesome.   So   all that is fantastic.   You heard it here first on dispatch. This is why we dispatch freaks. 60102.  

[01:10:01] Unknown:

It's yes. It is applied to sell more seat plates. I don't know. I mean, your seat plates are very affordable.  

[01:10:06] Unknown:

Would you do you want to   I just want the Phrees to know, like, this whole idea of punching it with the punch is, like, a very it's a very accessible thing. Like, don't be overwhelmed by punching steel.  

[01:10:18] Unknown:

Oh, it's ridiculously easy. You just pre mark with a sharpie. It's quite fun.  

[01:10:22] Unknown:

Yeah. You can just use a nail if and a hammer. But make sure you, like, double check it after the fact because it's sharp.  

[01:10:29] Unknown:

Sharpie. Sharpie first.  

[01:10:30] Unknown:

Sharpie first? I didn't do Sharpie first. Sharpie first.  

[01:10:34] Unknown:

100%.  

[01:10:36] Unknown:

Okay. Note note to note to everybody. Sharpie first. Alright. Or yeah. Just use a Sharpie. Sharpie is fucking dope.   Keep it simple. Bitcoin   is smelling a guide. He's the fucking boss. I mean, he might be a his guides are too good. He might be a spook because the guides are just that good. But if if if you're willing to take that risk, go to keep it simple bitcoin.com. He's got a lot of good guides over there.   MVK, I want to not MVK. I love both of you. I'm sorry. I keep mixing you guys up. Keydominer.   Your competitors   your competitors   have every app under the sun.  

How do you decide   what is supported on Nodl and what isn't supported on Nodl, and why are we waiting so long for what I want to be supported on Nodl?  

[01:11:28] Unknown:

How   we decide is basically,   many factors. First one is is it really useful? Like,   you know,   a lot of times, user just come to you and say, I would like this feature. And   after you spend a considerable amount of time implementing it, you realize that,   1, it doesn't exactly do what the user fault it was doing, or 2, actually, nobody is using it.   So that that's that's one factor. We're trying, like, to really   test things, use them ourselves, see if it's relevant, and,   and then   implement it and deploy it to to everyone.   Just a very recent example.  

I wanted to add loop,   to the models.   And, actually, I realized   that lightning terminal is a much better option because   the unofficial   take from Lightning Labs is that the stand alone   applications like Loop, Pool, and and all those   will be, like,   best effort supported. But if you really want the full experience, you should rather use Lightning terminal.   So I think Loop is the first app that survived only one version on another when   it would be removed in the next one.   So, yeah, we we try to avoid this kind of situations. And and another reason an app can be,   not implemented is if it's making a heavy or any, actually, use   of a third party external service.  

Luke, again, is a good example, and we are,   we are actually,   forcing users to run it over.   And so the policy now is that any application,   that needs to make any external calls to any external service will be, going through to our only.   Yeah. And and, also, there is a very stupid reason,   which is that there is only one of me, and I have many things to do.  

[01:13:44] Unknown:

I mean, I I like to hit you with,   I hit you with the request all the time, and then I just forget about them.  

[01:13:51] Unknown:

The But you're like like,   in the in the closest future, you will get lightning terminal. You will get,   an upgrade of all the existing services.   Actually, for once, normal cloud got the upgrades first. For example, the latest BTC RPC Explorer.  

[01:14:10] Unknown:

I like that now. Dojo usually gets everything first.  

[01:14:14] Unknown:

Yeah. That that used to be true   until the last version because we we needed it for another cloud for some for some customers. So we we prioritize that. I'm pretty sure I got the first Nautle dojo that's ever existed.  

[01:14:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so. Like, the first real one. Yeah. I mean, like, mine has the special spyware in it that's just designed specifically for me.   The   so so what I I so   so what I wanted to talk about,   was you   so you had an issue with Lightning   Loop,   right, where you lost funds on Lightning Loop? Like, I feel like No. I thought I thought I did, but they ended up coming back. They came back?  

[01:14:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   Basically, what happened is so it's a it's a stupid mistake from my side.   We are running a reverse proxy in front of the LND's API on the model,   for external services, like when you use Zap, for example.   And my mistake was that   I was connecting loop locally through that reverse proxy instead of going straight to LNG.   And that was making loop crash all the time   and not finishing transactions.  

[01:15:33] Unknown:

So is your fault? That that's solved now.  

[01:15:36] Unknown:

But, yeah,   I I know of one other user that got an issue with Luke not,   giving the funds back, but I think it was solved with, with the proper help from from Lightning Labs. That's good. I mean,  

[01:15:52] Unknown:

you know,   is the friend that that we when we're angry at lightning together, we we,   we reach out to each other. In private, we   we we we express our frustrations at the current state of things,   while loving it, at the same time using it all the fucking time. But,   you know, sometimes you just can't talk about these things as publicly, and I was excited to have him on because that's exactly what we're gonna fucking do.   Before we get there,   I wanna talk about your hate for Raspberry Pis.   So, you know Raspberry Pis.   There we go. So we got NVK on record also.  

We also have we have NVK on record,   also telling Raspberry Pi users to fuck themselves,   or I guess the device specifically to fuck themselves.   Both. We have a shit ton of freaks here right now that are using raspi nodes, whether that's raspiBlitz   or Umbral   or myNode   or RoninDojo   or whatever package that I just forgot and I'm gonna get shit about later.   They're all running raspies.   Why shouldn't people run raspies? Why doesn't Nodal use raspies?   Why is the Nodal Dojo   as expensive as it is?  

[01:17:15] Unknown:

Well, first of all, when we started, Nodle, the RAS PIs were   way on the powered compared to other solutions.   The the r pi threes. Right? Yeah. It was Raspis 3. And,   the the stock distro was 32 bits,   which,   which was coming with its sets of problems.   The chip on the Raspberry Pi is totally closed and not sold to anyone else than the Raspberry Pi Foundation.   Actually, there are some projects, like, of custom boards based on the Raspberry,   chip. And   what they do is they unsold all the chips from Raspberry because they can't get the chip otherwise.   They have a weird bootloader. They have,   Microsoft hypervisor running on the GPU, which is actually bootstrapping the CPU. CPU. There there's a lot of weird things happening on these both. Okay. I   understand. Not very stable.  

I mean, many power supply issues. Like, if you don't have the perfect power supply, it's crashing all the time.   But I I mean, personally, I don't have anything against running full nodes on, on the. I my first prototype   from 2017   was a Raspice 0, and it was running perfectly for for at least half a year.  

[01:18:40] Unknown:

Talk about the Wi Fi driver, please.   Disgusting.  

[01:18:47] Unknown:

Cheetah, you have opinion on the Wi Fi driver?  

[01:18:50] Unknown:

We don't do Wi Fi. So, anyway  

[01:18:53] Unknown:

Does does the r pi 4 have built in Wi Fi?  

[01:18:57] Unknown:

They all do, I think. They all do. Yeah. I think it is yeah.   I didn't know that. It's on by default too.  

[01:19:04] Unknown:

But none of the node packages use it. You have to plug them into Ethernet.  

[01:19:08] Unknown:

Yeah. It's because nobody wants dude.   And aside from the driver, also, the that. The the hardware is absolute shit for the Wi Fi. So what everybody does is put a a Wi Fi card on a Wi Fi enabled device. That's how bad it is.  

[01:19:24] Unknown:

Right. Or, like, you have a USB. Right?  

[01:19:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I just don't get it. Like, you have If you want to get good Wi Fi on any SBC, just buy an external That's ridiculous.  

[01:19:35] Unknown:

That's ridiculous. I mean, I thought I thought one of the benefits of them was that it was, like, one of the few compute devices we had that just had no wireless in it. Does it have Bluetooth? Good. Does it have Bluetooth in it as well? Like, listen. On the beginning, yeah, there's Bluetooth. No. Are you fucking kidding me? No. There's Bluetooth only on the version 4 and on, I think. But But anyways Well, that's what we're all using now anyway. Nobody's using a pi 3. The pi 3 suck in comparison to 4. You might as well buy a 4. The 4 is, like, $70.   If you're a Bitcoiner and can't afford $70, like, how long have you been a Bitcoiner for? Just use a just use a rock 64.  



[01:20:08] Unknown:

Right. It's like listen. On the beginning, I was a fan of raspberry pies. There wasn't anything else. Raspberry pies are great for children in Africa that don't have food. Wow.   But They can afford them. But anybody who has a fucking cell phone that is, like, a a a 1,000,000 times faster computer   than a Raspberry Pi should be using a rock 64, at least. There is, like, 50 different projects   that are good. Triggering the chat so much right now. I'm sorry, guys, but fuck raspberry  

[01:20:39] Unknown:

pi. Okay. So it's important it's important. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna side with Jan Verheer in the comments   and Zayazaza,   with with pies are fine.  

[01:20:51] Unknown:

Do you wanna leave it up to find a raspie.  

[01:20:54] Unknown:

The the the majority of things that we use   full nodes for,   if they're compromised, it's a privacy compromise. Right? It's not a security compromise.   Routing node, like, if you're gonna run a series routing node, like, you shouldn't run it on a pie. Right? Listen. Rock 64 is great.  

[01:21:18] Unknown:

You could also buy a used Mac mini. You can u like, there's a bunch of   go look into   micro microATX   computers. There's a bunch of, like,   fanless computers that cost, like, maybe like double Raspberry Pi, but they were gonna   run forever, and you can run all the model software on them.   Nobody   who who who has money to eat should be by a computer that costs less than a $100.  

[01:21:45] Unknown:

Fuck you.   Rasp it's cool that it costs less than a $100. That's pretty dope. Like, I'm looking at it. I have 5 of them right there. Like, it's just use it's just like it's cool that I can just buy that to shoot skeet.  

[01:21:57] Unknown:

I I'm more concerned about people hoping to run a node on an SD card in the long term. Yep. Oh, so you want to should we should we talk about this? I mean   SD cards are designed for cameras and MP 3 players, which do sequential   writing and reading.   They are not designed for a computer   unless you buy a very, very expensive SD card, which probably doesn't even exist on the market because the the good ones are not big enough to run a full node. That's right. Your SD card will die in a few weeks probably. Yep. I I I bought this HTC Exodus phone. I put a $200   SD card in it.  



[01:22:40] Unknown:

It got corrupt after 1 month of use. Yeah. So just so people know, the current technology for micro cards, especially over 32 gigabytes,   you cannot find cards that have proper error correction,   and you cannot do SD type memory,   right, flash memory without error correction for read and write like drives.   It's not like   this is just a camera saving pictures that does that very precisely.   The cameras are very good at doing that just for that.   SD cards were not designed to be read, write, like, hard drives.   They will break very fast.  

Yes, Martin. I have standards. Fuck Raspberry Pi.  

[01:23:23] Unknown:

The the best like, one of the best parts about dispatch. I just wanna say thanks to the to to all the freaks joining us in the live chat. I know this is an earlier time than usual. I know that we have a lot of new freaks in here because we have the European   side, and maybe   a little bit of Asia on the opposite side. We have, like, the   the late night Asian crowd versus the early day Asian crowd.   It's pretty crazy just, like, thinking about time zones and thinking about global   like, how global the space is, like, when I'm trying to decide when this stream goes out every Bitcoin Tuesday.   So that's just that's just a cool concept. I think this is the fact that we have them berating us in the live chat while we're going,   is very unique to this show that that's just automatically broadcast. No one is,   yeah. I mean, like, fuck censorship and shit. I mean, like, I I just obviously, MBK disagrees with me on this, but I don't block people. I don't mute people. So I'm glad this is. Well, Matt, it's just because you're not a time maximalist yet. You will learn that in time. You're a young grasshopper.  

We'll see. So   before we wrap up that topic,   thank you all you freaks for keeping us honest. Before we wrap up this topic, I mean, do you want to mention who you're talking about when you talk about SD cards? Because they were just on the show,   2 episodes ago, and that's my dog reminding us who they were.  

[01:24:49] Unknown:

I've actually discovered it in the chart. I didn't realize they were using SD cards.  

[01:24:54] Unknown:

Yeah. So this is Star 9 Labs uses SD cards, and we talked about it in their episode. I had perfect keys Keegan, cofounder of Star 9 Labs, on the show 2 episodes ago, and we we discussed this specifically.   I I think the biggest concern comes down to if you're using it with lightning.   Because if you're using it with lightning   and you that SD card fails, what you're gonna end up with is a static channel backup.   The static channel backup   forces you to close your channels.   So you do recover your funds to your seed,   your secret backup words,   but you do so in a way that you lose all your channels. And in a high fee environment, that could really fuck you.  

If if if if fees are high, you're gonna end up spending a ton of money in on chain fees. You're gonna lose the reputation of your node, and then you're gonna have to start start fresh.   That said, you're only losing transaction fees.   And if you don't use Lightning,   I would say it's probably less of a risk. If you have strong backups, if you're backing up onto   a USB drive,   probably less of a risk. I still think SSD is better just to, like, have a proper SSD, and I think they do agree and they're gonna do that soon.  

[01:26:08] Unknown:

Well, another thing is   I   I guess they ship precinct like we all do,   because if you try to sync on an SD card, you will never manage to go that. Yeah.  

[01:26:21] Unknown:

But it it's pre synced, but it's   it's it's still verified. Right? Like, the chain is still verified   per the rules.  

[01:26:32] Unknown:

Kito, what what what's a a small SSD,   drive   that fits   a node   going on 1 terabyte now. You gotta do 1 terabyte? How much are they going for these days?   38?  

[01:26:47] Unknown:

So we we recently switched to the Samsung Evo's 870,   SATA SSDs because they just came out. And, actually, that explained finally why we had trouble getting the 8 sixties.   They go for less than a $100 now for 1 So, like, 80. Right?   Is it possible? It's €100   here including tax, so I guess it's, like, 80, $90.  

[01:27:12] Unknown:

Can you still, do if you set up a pre synced, can you do pre synced spinning disk still, or it's just just not gonna get there? Why would you do that? Probably not 2 and a half inch.  

[01:27:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Because it's really cheap, man. Like Yeah. But it'd be so bad. Like, that's what the original Casa did. Guys are buying Raspberry Pi? The the rad the original Casa was r pi threes with spinning disc. And I was like, guys, like, you're just, like, fucking people. Like, they're gonna be so angry at you, and then they were just so angry at them. Like, what did you expect? Like, I actually  

[01:27:42] Unknown:

In one of my early prototypes, I actually bought from Western Digital. You'd used to have a range of accessories for Raspberry Pisces and SBCs.   And they had these very low power, 2 and a half inch hard drives.   They were, like,   3,000 RPM, like, slower than anything you will ever find in a computer,   and it was basically taking longer than a micro SD.  

[01:28:06] Unknown:

I still have to this day, I still have friends and family   that can they think that they owe me considerable   favor   because I approached them, and I was like, I can   make your computer better, and I just replaced their   spinning disk with an SSD. That's all I did.   And I I just I fucking did it. They're like, oh my god. You're a fucking god. Like, no one should fucking use spinning disk. Yeah. The the SSD is the best upgrade you can get for any computer.  

[01:28:33] Unknown:

Have you looked into,   the   how do they call these things?   OnLogic has them. It's called   it's a Celeron based,   but it's like a special fanless board.  

[01:28:50] Unknown:

Where is the name of the board? That's what I kinda like about raspi. It's like you can just buy, like, 1 for 70 and just not even use it with a fan or anything and just, like, fucking destroy it. Oh, there but there is, like, there is a whole industry of fanless  

[01:29:02] Unknown:

for all kinds of,   stuff. I sent a link on the private chat for, for security.  

[01:29:08] Unknown:

Yeah. I I didn't   play   with this. I think it's mini series. But some j series, definitely. I I have a few few   home built things   on top of that. But, actually, I'm rather looking in the latest generation of embedded Ryzen from AMD.  

[01:29:27] Unknown:

Okay. Yep.  

[01:29:28] Unknown:

Because they also have this memory encryption feature, which is in the silicon and just not activated in software yet. Right. And I'm harassing the local importer to get the bios with this feature enabled.   Not saying that there is a next   86,   64   AMD based model coming anytime soon.   Oh. But it's definitely something we are looking at for the  

[01:29:56] Unknown:

So it's upcoming. Who do you think you are, man? Like okay. You're looking at it. Got it.   The we're, Enrique, do you want me to should I put this up on the screen? What is the   The OnLogic or the Yeah. The OnLogic. Do you want me to put that on the screen? Or  

[01:30:13] Unknown:

well, I think it might just confuse people. But, anyways, there's a whole line. If if you type Apologies.   Yeah. If you do, like, 386,   like   so on logic, they used to call, logic Supplies. These guys are great.   Really, really professional outfit.   If you go, Matt, click on, computers.  

[01:30:33] Unknown:

No. I can't click on fucking shit. We don't wanna click on shit.  

[01:30:37] Unknown:

I don't know. You can't click on stuff?  

[01:30:40] Unknown:

I have to, like that's a that's it's Anyway, if anybody image,  

[01:30:44] Unknown:

bro. Anyways, if anybody goes on the logic.com   and then click on fan list computers logic.   Yeah.  

[01:30:51] Unknown:

I I don't I don't know if you've heard about PC engine engines.   They're all fanless. Everything there is fanless. It's a Swiss company that makes, like, rather firewall oriented,  

[01:31:02] Unknown:

boards, but they are AMD g old and something something newer than But can they can they do price and quantity, though? This is the problem that I find with the smaller suppliers.  

[01:31:13] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That that's a big issue. So PC engines can definitely do quantities because they are selling, like, tons of rack mounts,   hardware now.   We the we have some small scale model rack prototype, actually. We have 2 of those in 1, in a one rack unit,   chassis.   So you you get full redundancy inside the low power, like, 30 watts,   server.  

[01:31:44] Unknown:

Yeah. The the HSMs we built, for Kornikite way back in the day, they were all fanless   industrial,   like, boards that were we potted the whole board,   the whole computer board,   in that case, like, in a fanless case.   It was it was pretty cool stuff.  

[01:32:06] Unknown:

Yeah. So for the record, it's during this kind of discussions back in 2018 that NVK   told me that we should add a kill switch in the model. Yeah.  

[01:32:16] Unknown:

And the Dojo has 1?  

[01:32:19] Unknown:

They all have now.   Oh, the Nodal one has the kill switch as well. Now now the Nodal one ships with the kill switch and for this encryption as well. So this idea is is  

[01:32:30] Unknown:

the device is encrypted, but only if it's if it's running, it's not. So it needs to turn off to be Yeah. So in the very,  

[01:32:42] Unknown:

very   impossible case that someone would steal your device while it's connected to the power and try to freeze the memory to extract the encryption keys,   before they manage to open the case, the   memory will have the power cut and,   the keys won't be there anyway. Right. Yeah. That's that cold boot attack.  

[01:33:04] Unknown:

When they when they open the case, the power is cut.  

[01:33:08] Unknown:

And, also, if you plug,   cold cards,   to your c k bunker to your another, you can actually put the cold card inside of the case. So the power to the cold card will be cut as well. Yep.  

[01:33:21] Unknown:

Well, that's cool.  

[01:33:23] Unknown:

Yeah. That's for the CK bunker stuff that Yep. We ship.  

[01:33:28] Unknown:

I dig it.   Yeah. I mean, the kill switch is a a really cool concept, and then you have the raid. Right? So, like, not only like, we were talking about the issues with SD card. Not only do you have one SSD in the Nautilus, you have 2. Right? So one is mirroring the other.  

[01:33:45] Unknown:

Yeah. And a and a little known fact known fact is that the the normal ones that were shipped after we activated the encryption,   actually   have only one SSD, but the it's configured in a way that if you add an external one, you can make a RAID one with the internal and the external SSDs.  

[01:34:07] Unknown:

I'm I'm pretty sure it's the only major node package that is   full disk encrypted. I think everything else is, like, individual.  

[01:34:16] Unknown:

Yeah. So so this is the thing. Right? Like,   nobody should be running any computer of any kind without at least basic full disk encryption.   Like,   there is absolutely no reason for that.  

[01:34:33] Unknown:

I mean, and this is to be clear, this is for a physical type attack. Right? So you have you have a person who has   physical access to the computer.   They're they're holding the computer in their hand. The computer is in front of them. Yep.  

[01:34:46] Unknown:

Yep. And everybody should be running free BSD.  

[01:34:50] Unknown:

And this is why   well, I mean I'm like, fuck you, Enrique.  

[01:34:54] Unknown:

The the this is why, like, when the I would argue that open BSD would be better for Bitcoin. Yeah. Exactly. But it we're BSD Max.  

[01:35:03] Unknown:

This is still dispatch. It's supposed to be actionable Bitcoin discussion,   not a masturbation Bitcoin discussion. Because Linux is a shitcoin. So, see, Bitcoin related now. This is why this idea of a kill switch, this idea of full disk encryption is why when they hit Dread Pirate Roberts, they hit him in the library   while he was accessing,   Silk Road. This is why when they hit the b d c e guy, they ran through his driveway gate while he was on his computer, and then he ran outside in his robe   angry at them. And then they ran inside, and he was still signed into his computer, and it wasn't off. If that computer's off, then all of a sudden they have to brute force his encryption password. If it's a strong encryption password,   you could be the mightiest government in the world. You're not gonna fucking get into that encryption password. Well, it's complicated  

[01:35:55] Unknown:

because Okay. But but the point is the point is if it was very easy for them to do it, they wouldn't bust in his fucking gate with a fucking minivan. Right? So well, a little bit of parallel this parallel reconstruction there by law enforcement because I'm sure they had already illegally find what they had. They already knew what they needed. No. Just like just like your TPR. Right?   But but but the thing the problem with this encryption in general is that if you're not running, say, free BSD and building from source,   it's possible that whatever package you're using to do that encryption could be compromised, but that but that's like we're talking about, like, like, a a much deeper sort of, like, tinfoil hat and   and partly reason too on why people shouldn't use general purpose computers for,   like, you know, as hardware.  

Right? Like,   it's because of that. There is a massive stack of stuff   that you can't possibly verify.   There is smaller packages that are harder to use, but anyways, so so it goes into that deep rabbit hole about that.  

[01:37:02] Unknown:

Yes. So, also, one one funny thing I'm I'm working on actually is,   I figured that with all the system d and all   the launching metals on Linux,   which piss me off, I would be switching   all the   service starting on the model, at least in the encrypted part.   Because so yeah. For this encryption, it's nice, but you need somehow to enter the password at some point. So the eMMC on which we initially boot is not encrypted and just shows you the page  

[01:37:33] Unknown:

asking for the encryption password of the SSD, which runs all the software, actually. See, that's but see, the the that's the beautiful thing. Right? Like, you guys know what you're doing.   So   there's a massive difference between Notal, and by the way, Anthony was very funny there if you care about privacy. Right? If  

[01:37:51] Unknown:

you so shout out to Anthony Anthony Ronning in the comments. If you care about privacy, you shouldn't go outside.   So this is a difference between You're not even allowed to if you live in Canada  

[01:38:04] Unknown:

right now. Right. And and Keto. So, like, Keto from Noto. Like, these guys are building the package from from scratch, right, of the OS that they run. So they're picking out the libraries. They're picking how things are being done.   The average person running Ubuntu,   it's not a great idea. Fucked. Right? Yeah. I'd rather use OSX than Ubuntu. What about what about Windows?   No. I mean, Windows is not a software. It's a virus. So, like, we don't even  

[01:38:27] Unknown:

We do but you don't even realize, like, 70% of, Bitcoin Twitter use the Windows.   Yeah. But it might not for their Bitcoin purposes. I know. A lot of people use Windows. A lot a lot more people than you think are using Windows. Oh, they can go fuck themselves.  

[01:38:44] Unknown:

I I would say in the normal user base, it's probably 40% Windows, 40% Mac, and 20%.   Anything else?  

[01:38:52] Unknown:

Oof.  

[01:38:54] Unknown:

But, anyway, yeah, to to to to end my point, so the with this new launching process, we actually can run the full nodal software stack,   in the US,   which means that   just by replacing the the the binary names in the comments that download them from the official repositories, we can switch to BSD or whatever we want we want.  

[01:39:21] Unknown:

That's awesome.   Cheers to that. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   This has been a fucking fantastic conversation so far. Did we get to 55  

[01:39:34] Unknown:

this afternoon?  

[01:39:36] Unknown:

I love that I love that,   this just pumps and and dumps while we're on air. It's, like, fantastic.   I mean, that's what Bitcoin is about. Right? I think if you're using Windows, we we have   I mean, yeah, Bitcoin's about, pumping and dumping in the short term. I I mean, that's it's the best drug there is. We have Zanza in the comments asking, what do you do if you're using Windows? Migrate to Mac. I really do think that Pop!OS no. Fuck you. I think Pop!OS is, like, a very good beginner,  

[01:40:08] Unknown:

Linux distro. I'll listen to Matt. Just use an app. Is very functional,  

[01:40:12] Unknown:

and and you don't have to deal with fucking   trusting Tim Apple   with all what apps you use and shit. Like, he's gonna decide. And, like, in the next 2 years, he's gonna start deciding.   Like, I understand   the new Imac is sexy as fuck   because it is.   But,   you know, at at some point, you have to fucking draw the line. Like, they're just deciding what you can and cannot run, and they're making it very difficult. So so here's the thing. I I agree that the stock,  

[01:40:42] Unknown:

Mac OS,   sort of has a little bit much too much of a cock in your face.   They need to tone that down. But aside from that, you can turn all that shit off. It's still like, what people don't understand about Max is that they actually come from the BSD lineage,   you know, of real Unix,   and,   and they they are fairly   fairly,   hardened machines.   They they do a lot of stuff right.  

[01:41:10] Unknown:

They're If you look at Catalina and and the next versions,   they're like a very well installed hardened BSD system with the all the system files read only and only the the user   stuff read, writes.   It's like they they basically applied all the best practices.  

[01:41:30] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's the real deal. Right? Like, when maybe people just don't know the history, right, of, like, how Unix sort of evolved and and how sort of, like, things went in each direction.   But, like, I I highly recommend people putting some time into looking to BSD, so either net, BSD, free BSD, open BSD,   or OSax,   and and, like, sort of like that lineage,   because   it's a it's a it's a totally different   mindset than Linux.   It was always move slow and don't break things, by the way, as opposed to Linux, move fast and break things.   And,   I don't know. The BSD project was was running a lot like Bitcoin in a way,   and it's it's very true to UNIX.  



[01:42:18] Unknown:

I mean, if if you want to you want if you wanna give the freaks, like, the quick one minute chill, you're welcome to give them that chill.  

[01:42:27] Unknown:

About BSD?   Yeah.  

[01:42:29] Unknown:

No. Just just download and use it. Like, you you know, via one of my personal favorites for, like, starting users, like, the the Ubuntu of of BSD is probably Dragonfly BSD.  

[01:42:41] Unknown:

There you go.   What's really cool about BSD is, like, say say you are somebody who have, like, command line capabilities. Okay? So you are at that level. You have some like, you can Everyone has command line capabilities. They just have to fucking do it. Yeah. But but let's say you're already there. Right? So what you do is say you're running a Mac machine or a Windows machine or even a Ubuntu   machine. Right?   Like, download the, VM box or whatever,   VM software you like to use. And for all your   command line needs, run them through   a VM.  

You know? And this VM is gonna be   whatever flavor of BSD you want.   It's actually quite powerful to do that because you can actually route that VM via Tor only. So you can run your your Bitcoin d there,   you can do all kinds of stuff like that, and and it's a very bare bones,   very secure sort of environment.  

[01:43:45] Unknown:

Okay. So that was your daily BSD show.   Glad we got that in.   Freaks, we have over a 150 people in here right now. Cheers to you all.   We We got 16 retweets on Twitter. I love you guys. I don't want to be a dick about it, but   let's get those retweets up. It is appreciated,   and then we can get people in here before the show ends because then they can join the live chat, and I love when that happens.   I wanna talk about lightning fees, Kito.   I wanna talk about on chain fees. I wanna talk about,   trying to calculate on chain fee burden when running lots of Lightning Channels, because I know that Nautle is doing this.   I know that Nodal Cloud is a big part of Sphinx,   which a project we love, and and you're running a lot of their l and d nodes.  

And I know this is an issue that is concerning to me because I've   fucking had to deal with this, and I don't know how to calculate my on chain fee burden when dealing with Lightning. So how are you going about this? What are your thoughts here?   What should be what should the Bitcoin community be concerned about in this respect?  

[01:44:56] Unknown:

Well, I I've actually just listened to to   last week's RHR before we started. And,   one thing I hear a lot of of times is, like,   when fees go up, use Lightning. Okay. But to use Lightning first, you need the wallet and channels and all that crap.   So I think these,   high fee situations will just drive people to custodial Lightning Wallets,   because that that's basically the only way you can make Lightning transactions without dealing with your   with your liquidity.  

[01:45:32] Unknown:

I I have a maybe a controversial opinion.   For most people, for most needs, I'm okay with custodial lightning wallets.  

[01:45:42] Unknown:

Like, that's what I use. Well well, full disclosure, I'm using Wallet of Satoshia as my main wallet. So There you go. It's like because,  

[01:45:49] Unknown:

like, aside from the privacy consequences of using those lightning custodial wallets, which Matt, I'm sure, have a thing to say. No.   You know, I'm not concerned about the security on that. Right? Because it's always, like, you know, small amounts of money.   So so that's nice.   It gets people with their feet wet. Right? It's kinda like getting off 0. It's the same with, like, I rather people go to Coinbase and buy some Bitcoin there than they don't have any Bitcoin.  

[01:46:18] Unknown:

Right. I mean, it's better privacy than on chain. Right. And here's the thing. If people  

[01:46:24] Unknown:

get any lightning wallet and start using it, if there is more than 10 people using lightning, maybe one day we're gonna add it to our   store.   It's just like   there there isn't enough people using it. We need sort of, like, more people using to put the effort in. Right? And we're not the only ones. We hear this from everybody. Well, if I say You should add little things. Well, but but what about I'll give you so much capacity. We'll just give you free capacity, Brett. You don't that's a project. Should I do that or should I ship the seed store? The hardest part the hardest part about  

[01:46:56] Unknown:

adding lightning to your store is the capacity, and we will provide you so much capacity.   As as for as for custodial wallets, I mean, the real the real thing is, like, I think the cool part about lightning   is interoperable custodial wallets.   That's the really cool part.   Unfortunately,   regulations don't allow custodial wallets. So,   like, cheers to Wallet, Satoshi, and BlueWallet,   but I'm concerned a bit that I think that the regulators are gonna fucking come down on them. So then we have depends in which jurisdictions we're running the states. But but then we have entrance to the market like Moon Wallet, m u u n, Phoenix Wallet,   Breeze Wallet, where they provide   channels to you. They open the channels for you.  

And I would argue that those are, like, kinda semi custodial.   Right? Like, those are just basically you're taking a UX hit custodial. Look. We are taking a fee hit and a UX hit, and they're just trying to protect they're protecting themselves a little they're protected a little bit more on a regulatory basis. No?  

[01:48:13] Unknown:

So Breeze is falling on custody. The LND is running on your phone.  

[01:48:18] Unknown:

But they're the routing node, and you're not always online. And you don't have a watchtower.  

[01:48:24] Unknown:

You you you can open channels to whoever you want. But you're trusting the Breeze routing node.   I I I think you can open direct channels from Breeze now. Maybe. But the average user isn't.   And, anyway,   like,   how many users actually only have one channel with some big famous node that if this node falls into the wrong hands, everybody's everyone is screwed? But anyone who uses Breeze, Phoenix, or Moon  

[01:48:56] Unknown:

is doing that.   No?  

[01:49:02] Unknown:

Probably. But but I I don't think it's the only ones.  

[01:49:06] Unknown:

My point is is   it's fine. I'm completely fine with that as a trust model. I just   if if if it wasn't for regulations, if we lived in a a purely NCAP world, we would have a bunch of custodial lightning wallets that were competing each with each other on fees and reputation,   and they're all interoperable.   And that's fine.  

[01:49:28] Unknown:

Well, other than the regulatory problem, I would argue that probably from a,   from   a privacy perspective,   fully custodial wallet, such as wallet of Satoshi,   is good or even better because   it's not you making the transactions. It's Verano and VerWallet making the transactions.   And the only thing that identifies you is some random exodesmall identifier of your device on your service.  

[01:50:02] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:50:03] Unknown:

No. I I mean, I don't I don't just I mean, it's custodial privacy. We we had this discussion with Olms recently, and he told me basically why it's of Satoshi is a mixer in these guys.  

[01:50:12] Unknown:

Right. Right. It's it's it's a custodial wallet. This is why all the custodial wallets all get shut down   because the regulators don't like that.   Which is fine. But that's, like, the reality we live in today. So only gonna get worse.   Right. I agree.  

[01:50:34] Unknown:

And I think this this is, like, a fair hoping that the jurisdictions will start to compete  

[01:50:39] Unknown:

on that front. No. They're they're gonna block they're gonna be obligated to it's kinda like Binance problem.   Yep. What the US is gonna do is, like, swing their dick around and say, hey.   You're gonna have to KYC everybody or you're gonna have to prove to me they're not Americans or we're gonna go and, shut down Swift to your country. I mean, this would have been a bottle pay. Bottle pay was custodial lightning,  

[01:51:02] Unknown:

but they were Britain. And disclosure, I'm an adviser for them.   They were they were in Great Britain, and Great Britain came down harder, UK came down harder,   and they said, no. You can't have a custodial wallet without KYC, so they closed down   service.   So the   and they reopened with KYC. But the important part to me is that they closed down so that that you didn't get shotgun KYC ed. You you came in if you if you wanted to be KYC, you can get k y c. And this is what's gonna happen. Right? Like, this is gonna continue to happen,   and, hopefully,   the breezes of the world, the phoenixes of the world, the moons of the world, m u u n,   once again,   are   enough not not custodial   to not be included in that regulation, but that's a determination that governments are gonna make. And to be quite honest,   like, there's trust involved with all those models. It's not like a   a it's not like a non custodial on chain wallet. The non custodial on chain wallet, like, yeah, there's some trust involved in you looking at the chain, but it's different it's different than  

[01:52:10] Unknown:

controlling the routing node and the payment channels and shit. Well, also, as someone mentioned in the in the chart,   I think that, ultimately, when the regulators decide to   to shut down any Lightning custodial service, they will come at the hosted notes too. Because   if you have another cloud instance, you're managing your LND. But at the end of the day,   we have physical access to the server. And by   complicated ways, we can access your wallet.   So   it's   I I think in front of a code or a regulator,   it can be proven that we are a custodian.  

[01:52:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you're the next but you're the next level after Breeze.   Yeah. And those. Right? But but, like   and and I think also why we have servers in 2 very different jurisdictions, and we can just move all the servers from one to 2 people. I think most western jurisdictions would argue that you're not a custodian. And I I think that's like a free speech   privacy issue, and and we shouldn't have to rely on that. But, you know, at the end of the day, this is a global movement. Us as an IT expert, I would say,  

[01:53:20] Unknown:

we are.   But  

[01:53:25] Unknown:

yeah. No. I mean, I 100% agree with that. I wasn't gonna bring that up on air, but here we are.   Yeah.   So  

[01:53:37] Unknown:

all that said Even running a BTC pay with a hot wallet makes, makes the service provider a custodian.  

[01:53:43] Unknown:

Right. I mean, look look, at the end of the day,   regulators are gonna regulate, and they can do whatever the fuck they wanna do. Right? And we don't wanna give them we wanna talk I I think it's important that we talk about this stuff publicly, but at the same time, it's important that,   it it's a little bit different when it's, you know, publicly broadcast and recorded forever.   But, all this stuff should be talked about,   and and and should be on the top of everyone's mind. Like, people should be considering this when they're creating these products, when they're working on this stuff,   when they're thinking about the threat models. You have to consider all of these aspects.  



[01:54:22] Unknown:

But remember, right, if you're creating a custodial service   and you look pretty,   you're gonna have to do KYC or you're gonna end up in jail being pretty, and that's not gonna be fun.  

[01:54:34] Unknown:

Right. But the the the whole point here is that there's different layers. Right? Yeah. It's not it's not just black and white.  

[01:54:40] Unknown:

Yeah. We're gonna have a mix of everything. That's just how Bitcoin is.  

[01:54:44] Unknown:

Yeah. And and the the friction the friction that the regulation adds really really fucking hurts the individual citizens of any given jurisdiction.   So it's something that government should consider,   that that if you can reduce that friction, you're gonna have more competitive business in your in your jurisdiction, and they'll pay better tax rates.   Okay. So all that said,   lightning fees would like   like, it's   this idea of   I don't know when my channel is gonna close and and what the minimum size is gonna be.   If we have   a average   freak who who is running a routing node,   and they're trying to set that that parameter,   What is their minimum channel size, Keto?  

What what what what should their minimal channel size be? Like, what what should they be thinking about when they're deciding   how they're gonna run,   their little humble,   Tor only   routing node that is supposed to, like,  

[01:55:49] Unknown:

type of a go. Say, if you're   running a node for yourself for routing   and you're not in a business situation when you have someone waiting for you to open channels like we are,   just open it with very small fees and wait for it.  

[01:56:08] Unknown:

But what's the what's what what what minimum size?  

[01:56:12] Unknown:

I don't know. Maybe 500 k to 1 mil.  

[01:56:17] Unknown:

I'm, like, I'm a little bit torn because I so I I made the stacking SaaS node. I made that 500k, but I think it's a little bit charitable. Right? Like, I'm just doing that because I want   the freaks to have an accessible node   to learn,   but, like, I feel like 500 k is way too low. And I think 1,000,000 might be too low too. Well, 500 k is a lot of money right now.   Right.   1,000,000   is   500   or   5550.   Right? Yeah.   So so 500   is is about $250.  

[01:56:58] Unknown:

Test models recently to to make some, tests of of the latest upgrades.   And I I found some old lightning wallets,   with amounts which seem ridiculous 2 years ago.  

[01:57:12] Unknown:

But, actually, 100 k or 500 k is is money now. I mean, I have channels on the fucking stacking stats notes still that are, like, 30,000   sat channels. Like, as soon as that channel gets closed, like, I'm just paying it all to miners.  

[01:57:26] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:57:28] Unknown:

Completely worthless channel. So I I think it's important that people realize, like, you wanna have a larger channel. You don't want to   you don't want the whole channel thing to be a fucking donation of minors.   And 1,000,000 is probably fine, but, like, you should probably go bigger in my opinion. Bigger is better. Less is more.   Deal with it.   Liquid. I wanna talk about liquid. No one talks about liquid.  

[01:57:58] Unknown:

Well, it's because liquid is, like, mostly run by by, like, exchanges for liquidity   provide,   for,   for for liquidity, right, exchange between them.   I still think liquid liquid is fantastic because it's very low,   entry,   friction for the end user.   It's kinda like just like Bitcoin. Right? It's confidential transaction.   So,   you just have to run a client and and then you have access to custodial,   sorry, to self custody liquid. Right?   You know, with whatever set of trade offs they have.   It's a shame that, like, the only people really pushing liquid is Blockstream.   I wish there were other companies doing stuff with Liquid and sort of pushing it as well,   because then it wouldn't feel like it's so sort of like one company.  

So why pushing it here at at dispatch. We're pushing. No. I know. But, like, pushing is different than actually, like, building stuff on it. Right? Like   Let's go freaks. Let's build some shit. Yeah. Build some stuff on Liquid. I I think it's fantastic. Like, you know, and if you don't peg out, like, the fees are pretty low too. So   and there is also great privacy inside of the liquid network, right, because confidential transactions.   So,   yeah. I I mean, I I honestly can't wait for, Tether Should I do my liquid chill? My liquid chill is  

[01:59:30] Unknown:

is that for the average user, you know, liquid's been sold as this, like, whale technology.   And for the average user,   I think liquid could be really useful   in, like, the stacker's   arsenal. Like, I think you just stack to liquid,   and then when you hit a certain threshold, you convert back to on chain and you go into cold storage. Ideally, maybe you go into CoinJoin before.   I mean, the real idea would be go to CoinJoin in liquid before you go   out,   because then you pay low fees. And I I think   I think they're really there there's there's a very strong argument there   for Liquid because you you're trusting them,   but you're trusting them with a low amount.  

You have confidential transactions.   It runs on the same Bitcoin API, so all of our favorite wallets could implement it relatively easily.   And then when if you hit a larger balance, then you take that on chain fee burden, you take that on chain fee hit, and you move in. And the thing between Lightning and Liquid is with Lightning, it's so difficult for me to understand what my on chain fee burden is. Liquid, it's very simple.   Liquid is whenever I move between Liquid and Bitcoin, I pay the Bitcoin fee.   Otherwise, I don't pay the Bitcoin fee, and I run the risk of maybe the Federation's gonna fuck me. Right?  

But but I know that   my fee on chain is whatever   whenever I switch back.   With link with Lightning,   I can just, like, be sleeping and someone can close my channel, and then I have to pay that lightning I have to pay that on chain fee. And I I'm not even aware that I'm going to pay that. Right? Like, there's no way to quantify   there's no way to quantify   your lightning channel partners are just gonna close channels on you in high fee environment.   But with Liquid, you don't have to deal with that. You choose when you leave, and when you leave, you pay a fee. Period. Right? You know, like, can just just one of the main things  

[02:01:31] Unknown:

that, like,   people   have, like, high use for is stable coins.   It's like, can we just stop using, like, ether or fucking, like,   one of those things for the stable coin, just use liquid. So that is, like, it's all just, like, Bitcoin based essentially.   Right? Like, that that's like one of the main things I wanna see. People don't appreciate the the volume and the size   of the market for a stable coin.   It's absolutely   huge.   I wanna see all that, like, being run on top of Bitcoin.  

[02:02:10] Unknown:

Right. I mean, Tether is, like, insane right now. Right? Yeah. There's no but there is also USDC,  

[02:02:16] Unknown:

which is, which is what, like, a lot of,   like, the more   the more western based,   KYC companies use.   You know, all that stuff should be liquid.   So then you could take custody yourself with that shitcoin, of that Right. Shit stablecoin, whatever you wanna call it. Right? And, we would probably support on cold card eventually because it is Bitcoin   curve. It's confidential transaction. Right?   And then you can just have the 2 things you could possibly need,   on the same device, but that's it.  

[02:02:55] Unknown:

So Anthony is mentioning in the chat,   it's it's important to keep in mind that you're you're only paying the   the closing fees if you're the one who opened the lightning channel.   But for 99% of you out there, you're gonna be opening every lightning channel you use. It's gonna it's gonna be on your side,   so just keep that in mind.   Kito, do you have any opinion on liquid?  

[02:03:25] Unknown:

Not really. No. I I didn't follow all these liquid things. I mean,   Bitcoin   on train and lightning is already a lot to do. So  

[02:03:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it is. I agree. I mean, do you I I hope you're ready for we're gonna have lightning on liquid.   That's gonna be really fun.  

[02:03:48] Unknown:

That's pretty cool. Right? Because now you're getting almost, like, best of both worlds. And because it's, like, small amounts,   the security trade offs of liquid don't matter anymore.   So so, like, that's it. It's like,   just spare those 2 technologies and stop worrying.  

[02:04:06] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. I I think I'm pretty excited about that. Will you be able to make atomic swaps between  

[02:04:11] Unknown:

lightning bitcoin and lightning liquid?  

[02:04:15] Unknown:

I mean, if you can do between lightning and bitcoin, I can't see why you wouldn't be able to do it with liquid and   or even a three way.  

[02:04:23] Unknown:

That that would be fun.  

[02:04:27] Unknown:

It's just a metaphor The privacy gains on that. Right? Like, going from confidential transaction to lightning back to confidential transaction. Right?   And then maybe you go from from,   confidential transaction to lightning to then go to Bitcoin. So there is no concerns about somebody watching the the liquid, conversion endpoints.  

[02:04:46] Unknown:

Well, I mean   so I mean, I I I've been thinking about this a lot recently is that this idea of coin join in liquid would be really fucking cool,   because you could just have,   you know, you can have, like, an a liquid NFT   mixed with 10 Bitcoin, and and you don't need to have equal outputs because you have confidential transactions,   assets. They don't even know what's in the transaction, so you can just mix whatever you wanna mix.   But the problem is   is it's almost like Blockstream's worried about   the regulatory   burden that they have,   and this is something that NVK has been talking to me a lot about behind the scenes is, like,   this idea   of of, like, many liquid networks interoperable.  

Right? And, like, you wanna talk about this a little bit, MBK? Like this concept, like So  

[02:05:36] Unknown:

I I think the biggest problem right now is that there is no   competition or parallel   distribution of another federation.   Right? So, essentially,   the best thing for Liquid that I think Blockstream should do is make it easy for somebody else to run a competing federation,   because now it doesn't look like it's centralized on them anymore. It puts them at less risk of regulatory capture,   and it gives them more plausible deniability as well because now you can have like one liquid federation   sort of sending and receiving transactions for another one.   To me, the the ultra validation   of the liquid technology would be when you have, like, I don't know, like, dark markets.  

I mean, a a dark market liquid federation.   That'd be pretty hilarious.  

[02:06:24] Unknown:

That'd be dope as fuck.  

[02:06:25] Unknown:

I mean, theoretically,   it's the same for lightning. Right? Until we see this technology as being used by people who actually need them,  

[02:06:33] Unknown:

it's hard to see them taking off. So do you agree do you agree with the haters that say,   you know, lightning, liquid so far have been a failure because we haven't seen darknet markets integrate them?  

[02:06:45] Unknown:

So I'd say the word failure is is retarded to use on this.   It's like Questionable  

[02:06:52] Unknown:

word.  

[02:06:53] Unknown:

Yeah.   Because, like,   you know,   these are new technologies.   Right? And they're layer 2, so   they're gonna always enjoy   less   penetration in the market than the base technology.   Right?   And it's gonna take longer for them to reach,   like, proper critical mass. It's a matter of time and market size. Right?   But but but they will sort of get there and and, you know, Bitcoin fees are gonna get them there.  

[02:07:27] Unknown:

So, I mean, do you have an opinion? I mean, specifically with dark markets, I mean,   it seems they're to Monero right now. Do we think this is, like, a temporary thing? Or  

[02:07:36] Unknown:

I don't know. I mean, like,   I I it's not a market I watch anymore at all. Right. But   the problem with Monero is that, like   like, all the   the law enforcement needs to do is essentially watch the exchange between money arrow back to Bitcoin. Right? That's probably what they do.   So,   it's it's tricky, right, because if you're not hidden in the noise,   right, it's very hard to do privacy.   So even if your little island is fully private.  

[02:08:12] Unknown:

So, so yeah. So I guess my point is I guess my point is, like, I'm not necessarily,   you know, to to my FBI agent that's listening, I'm not necessarily   saying that I don't I'm not   defending a dark market usage,   but I think that dark market usage kind of It's validation.   It's a it's a there's like a flag bearer of how well your currency is working in   real life. Right? Like in a a proper adversarial environment. Like the cool part about   Bitcoin   to me has always been   that it's functioning in this adversarial environment and it's surviving in it. Right? And it's   it's, like, every day, like, we have to deal with fucking FUD and attacks   left and right.  

And But you know what? The pure form of that is the market market. Right?  

[02:09:07] Unknown:

Let let me ask you that. As   a dark market operator,   would you   want to have to deal with the hot wallet channels liquidity   running your own node? You have so many other problems to take Never run lightning. I would never run lightning if I was You know  

[02:09:25] Unknown:

dark dark market operator.  

[02:09:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean but remember, right, like, all these guys still need start their wealth somewhere. Right? And they're gonna probably start in Bitcoin, so they have to still go back to Bitcoin from them on their own, so they're always gonna be screwed that way.   If you wanna talk about failure   in in Bitcoin, it's like porn. Right? I mean,   porn providers,   want credit cards because it's a pool   kind of relationship with a customer supposed to push, right? So   Bitcoin and all kinds of crypto in general   don't work for porn   because people are not gonna forget their memberships there or   too easy to cancel. Yeah. No. Not even that. Right? I mean, like, part of the industry also is just selling your information and your stolen,   not stolen credit cards to other guys. Right? That will also charge those cards.  

So, you know, porn industry has not adopted crypto absolutely, like like, at all. Like, you  

[02:10:25] Unknown:

can't But they're just gonna have to deal with it. Right? Like, we're we're leaving the pull system. It's gonna be a push system. They're gonna have to deal with it. Coinbase is gonna be able to let them pull through. Have to deal with it. They're gonna have to no. The majority of their customers aren't gonna come from Coinbase.  

[02:10:39] Unknown:

I don't know. Why not?  

[02:10:41] Unknown:

Majority of customers are on Mastercard and Visa. Why would they not We have Plastic Wang. We have a guy called Plastic Wang,   Ironically enough asking who pays for porn. Well, obviously, not someone who has a plastic wing. But maybe the glass wings, they they do pay for porn.   No. I mean, I'm just asking what you   yeah. No. I I think I think the pay porn stuff is is has has a new resurgence lately.   I think this is something we can talk about dispatch, but we can't talk about on regular Tales From the Crypt because Marty is super against porn, so we're not allowed to conversate   about it.  

The this this idea is, like,   we have, like, the new pornfluencers.   Right? Like, we have, like, the the Twitter porn people, we have   OnlyFans,   and we have Sphinx now. Sphinx chat, there's there's multiple there's multiple tribes in Sphinx   that are using lightning to pay for porn on a on a per picture basis,   I think we're making a new resurgence as a as a society   towards  

[02:11:45] Unknown:

paid for porn. Well, I mean, porn is yeah. Well, I mean, these porn actresses are essentially using the the old   patronage system right now where where, like, it's almost like Patreon before porn. Right? Like, that's essentially where Alli fans is. It's like people subscribe to their stuff and essentially maintain their lifestyle.   I mean, it's a healthier relationship.  

[02:12:06] Unknown:

We're gonna have push. It's but they're gonna have to switch to push. They have no choice   is my point. Like, it's gonna it's gonna be push payments, and they're gonna have to evolve their business model, and they're gonna do fine.   Yeah. Yeah. No. It it's, it really is, I like how Kito just went quiet. He's like, okay.   I I don't want Martin being angry at me.  

[02:12:32] Unknown:

Well, someone   reminded in the chat that Pornhub   accepts   bit crypto  

[02:12:39] Unknown:

for Well, they started accepting Dogecoin dark. Do you remember what Dogecoin dark became?   Verge.   And then, you know, they they started with Verge currency or whatever. Man, I'm really out of the root the loop on the shit coins. It's   hard to follow. I never heard of, of I think that one. I love it. All of all of our all of our freaks that are live right now are just being censored in the live chat because none of the live chats will let them type in porn. Mhmm. So that is great. Okay. So we talked about liquid. That's fantastic.   All both of you guys agree that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.  

What else do I have here?   I'm starting a new organization called Open SaaS. Have I told you guys about this?  

[02:13:30] Unknown:

Quiet. I think I know something about it. Yeah. Maybe.  

[02:13:34] Unknown:

Maybe? Okay. So, OpenStack   is this new organization we're starting that's gonna keep fucking Brink honest.   It's gonna keep HRF honest, keep keep Square   Crypto honest, and it's gonna be a pleb   fucking initiative.   Oh, is that the one I committed to, Yeah. You committed   CoinKite is gonna be a launch partner of Open Sats.   So, obviously, MVK is out of it.   And and the basic idea is that we're gonna have Bitcoiners, we're gonna have plebs fucking supporting   free and open source software.   It's gonna be fucking dope as fuck,   and I'm looking forward to being a part of this. I am on the board. It's 9 of us.  

All heavy hitters. I think you're gonna fucking love who's on the board.   And I'm just excited. I I   my plan is   personally, what I wanna see is   fuck the corporate donors. Thank you, CoinKite, for being a launch partner. But fuck the corporate donors. We are far from the corporate.   I want I want plebs I want plebs to be donating $50   a month, and I wanna I wanna put that towards open source development,   basically. I want a bunch of fucking plebs all donating $50 a month,   and I'm gonna give you guys fucking swag and all this fucking shit, and it's gonna be fucking fantastic.   And and we're gonna support open source dev. That is that is the fucking plan.  

I'm very excited about it. I think we're gonna make big moves on it in the next 3 weeks,   but I was very anxious. So I said, I'm gonna just talk about it on dispatch. So here we are. I think it's important. What do you guys think?  

[02:15:15] Unknown:

I'm looking for the domain to get.  

[02:15:17] Unknown:

Opensats.com.   We already have the domain. You can't steal it.   Well, let me see if I can find a very I'm not gonna Who do you think is hosted on the Nolo cloud? Yeah. I'm not gonna fucking announce this shit I'm not gonna announce this shit,   fucking without having the domain. Yes. It is actually host on Nava Cloud. Kito is one of the first people to know about it. So we have have   we have the people on onboard, and it's gonna be fucking good. I'm excited.   And open source Dome in   Bitcoin 2021 is going to be lit,   and we will be announcing a lot of things while we're there.  

You both agree that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Correct?  

[02:16:01] Unknown:

It has to. It's it's deterministic.  

[02:16:03] Unknown:

It's not an option.  

[02:16:05] Unknown:

What do we think the price is gonna be for Bitcoin Miami,   June 4th?   What is it? April 27th. That's the month.  

[02:16:13] Unknown:

June could be bear, or it could be super bullish. It's kind of impossible to tell right now.  

[02:16:19] Unknown:

It will be between   1,000,000.  

[02:16:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I agree. I think that's a a very conservative range.  

[02:16:29] Unknown:

Okay. I I like 68 k, though. May maybe a minus You like 68,000?   68,000?  

[02:16:36] Unknown:

Yeah. Just because, you know, Motorola.  

[02:16:39] Unknown:

No. No. 69,000.   Because that the memes can we please have   a full, like, 2, 3 months on 69,000?  

[02:16:48] Unknown:

No. Not gonna stop with the 69. I mean, we're gonna run to we're gonna run to 100 k. Right? Like, there's no way that there's there's gonna be, like, a middle ground, like, where we're chilling at, like,   69,  

[02:17:00] Unknown:

75, 80. No. No. I could. No. We we could definitely have a sixties,  

[02:17:05] Unknown:

where we constantly yeah. Consolidation. Definitely. It's gonna be a sprint, and then we're just gonna be above 100 k. And it was gonna be like, oh, it was we always expect a 100 k. Like, it was just normal. It's just what what we expected.  

[02:17:20] Unknown:

I would say that at a 100, there's gonna be a lot of   reconsolidation consolidation,   and there's gonna be a lot of rebalancing of treasuries.   But once the big pockets get all lined up in the next,   say,   I wanna say, 8 to 12 months, around that. I was 12 to 18. Now it's a,   probably, like,   10 to   8 to to 12 months. I don't think people appreciate how much money is coming into Bitcoin now.   Okay. All these Fortune 500 companies are moat. Right? Okay. So MBK,  

[02:17:56] Unknown:

June 4th. What's the price of Bitcoin?  

[02:18:00] Unknown:

01,000,000.  

[02:18:01] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. So,   I think it's gonna be over 200 k still.   So you think higher or lower than that?   I don't have. I don't do price predictions. We're looking for the tech, but also you're a fucking bear.   Okay?   Kito,   June 4th.   You coming to Miami? I know MBK is not. You coming to Miami?  

[02:18:30] Unknown:

We are doing our best. So far, we seem to have the appropriate paperwork to do that. No. Wait. Wait, Matt. There's still a small chance. Like, it's it's really it's really gonna depend if they're gonna gulag me on the way back or not.   Because I can go. They are gonna go log you on the way back. Like, there's no way to get Like, if they no. No. No. They they keep on flip flopping on a bunch of shit here. Yeah. You can't just buy a house down here and just chill for a little bit.   Well, if, if my, my family wanted to move, I'd move already there.  

[02:19:02] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I'm happy to take you on on a work visa if you wanna join my company. I was like, oh, I'm sorry. You're going to offer to marry me? I well, we could get married. You wanna get married? Yeah. Like, let's let's do because then, you know, because then it's like slam dunk. Right?   I mean, my fiance would be a little bit upset. We'd have to get divorced before my wedding, but  

[02:19:22] Unknown:

I I think I think Yeah. Listen. It's,   Listen. If she takes too long to buy, you know, somebody else picks it up. Right?  

[02:19:30] Unknown:

But I I would a 100% give you a work visa if you wanna, like, drive my car.  

[02:19:36] Unknown:

You know? We we can make it work. Someone is asking me about the paperwork,  

[02:19:41] Unknown:

for the conference.   So   you so if you're traveling from Europe, you need, an official paper saying the purpose of your visit. It can be tourism. It has to be like a business trip or something.   So I think the conference is providing this for you if you ask them.   And then you have to provide either   a negative test   less than taken less than 72 hours before you fly   or a positive test less than 90 days,  

[02:20:13] Unknown:

before you fly. Yeah. I got a vaccine.  

[02:20:15] Unknown:

It's just like the Stasi   documents.  

[02:20:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Actually, it reminds me the time in 87 when we flew from communist Poland to France, and we had to have an invitation from a member of the family.  

[02:20:28] Unknown:

Yeah. So fucked up. No. This is this is absolutely, like, insane.   Traveling right now is like torture,  

[02:20:38] Unknown:

like international travel. No. I feel like America is, like as much as I'm upset, like, I feel like America is, like, one of the last saint places. Like depends on which state you're in, man. I know. But that's the cool part. Right? Like, we can move between those states very easy. You guys have choice. No restriction. Like, I can just fucking pack up the car and just drive to another state. You know, Canada used to be a bit more federated, but now, like, it's been a lot more, consolidation at the at the Fed. I have no restrictions to go down to Florida, and I'm in the worst fucking state there is. But I could also if and I am going to, to be fair, is I'm just gonna fucking straight up leave the state, and there's no restrictions on that. So so America does deserve some credit.   Yeah. I know. I I I know. You guys are the least worst system in the world. We're we're we're fucking proving ourselves. We're proving ourselves these last few years. And it it amazes me it amazes me that there's, like, a large group of people   that still, like, blindly trust their government after this long. Like, why? Fucking  

[02:21:40] Unknown:

Matt, people want all this shit. It's the people who ask for all this shit. I'm talking about, like, random people. I'm talking about, like, Bitcoiners. Like, there's Bitcoiners  

[02:21:48] Unknown:

where I'm like, guys, like, can we care about using Bitcoin more privately? And they're like, man, it's flooding us. Like, government the US government would never come at us. Like, this would never fucking happen. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, how do you not let Biden is like, hold my beer, bro.   Yeah. Like, fucking personal responsibility. Fucking take some personal responsibility. Like, why the fuck do you think that anyone is gonna care about you if you don't fucking take care of it yourself after this  

[02:22:17] Unknown:

time, regardless of where you live? Most people don't want freedom. They just want a better self.   Ridiculous.   No. Seriously. It's like, most people don't want any of this shit. They just wanna, like, you know Got a little bit too bearish when you said that. I saw your tweet earlier. You were like, they just want a a better sell. Yeah. That's what most people want. Better prison sell. Better prison sell. That's what most people want.   Including many Bitcoiners.  

[02:22:44] Unknown:

We have our boy, Ty, in the comments, then don't listen to Dieter.   Cheers, Ty. Appreciate you. Looking forward to Miami.   Oh, that that I don't I I muted that dude. I know. You're like a fucking you're weak, man. You're just fucking muting people, blocking people.  

[02:23:01] Unknown:

It's too much work, man. I have better shit to do my life. Wait till you have some kids. You're gonna be like, I'm not fucking listening to this morons. I have. I'm gonna go play my kids instead. We're 2 hours and 30 minutes into this dispatch. It's going out to Citadel's  

[02:23:15] Unknown:

globally.   The Bitcoin is listening to this. They wanna listen to only the important shit. They don't wanna listen to garbage. What should we talk about? Do you have anything to talk about before we wrap this shit up?  

[02:23:29] Unknown:

Let me think.   Let me take a quick look here at the release notes, See if I have other updates that are coming that I that are sort of public. Hang on a sec.  

[02:23:43] Unknown:

Freaks, this goes to you as well in the live chat. We have over a 170   freaks in the live chat right now,   across Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube. You can find links to all of them at cidilodispatch.com.   If you're in the live chat right now, do not hesitate   to give us questions, to give us ideas that we should discuss.   We're here for dispatch. This is Bitcoin Tuesday.   It's the best day of the week. Let's fucking go.  

[02:24:11] Unknown:

So out of our release notes that we have coming in the next version,   We have,   bit 48 derivation path exporting support now for JSON, so, like, you can do like, it's it's better support for Sparrow.   You can now,   you ask account number when creating multisig   air gap. Lots of people ask for that.  

[02:24:39] Unknown:

What did you learn anything from your errors when you switched   to,   the Bitcoin core crypto? Was it, like, Libsec,   whatever?   Sec p sec p Do you have a match of vulnerability? Like, is there something to teach the freaks about upgrading   to, like, 4 point o from 3 point o, like, major  

[02:25:03] Unknown:

upgrade? Yeah. I know. So, like, if you're running,   run 4.2 is, is pretty good.   There's there's   things, any any open issues have been resolved, and   and it's pretty solid now.   Yeah. We're just waiting for more people to upgrade.  

[02:25:22] Unknown:

To the people, like, thank you for that insight. To people in the comments, yes, Swan did run out of Bitcoin.  

[02:25:28] Unknown:

Yeah. What the fuck was that?  

[02:25:32] Unknown:

That   like like like, that does happen. Like, we have brokered services. We have services   that are wait. But but we have services that are mostly buy side only. Right? We have   Swan is is obviously   the most transparent about that because, I mean,   Swan is basically a UI wrapper on top of Prime Trust. They're they're   sourcing from Prime Trust,   and and they don't even allow you to sell. They're strictly buy only. But you have services.   I love River, but River,   Cash App,   Bull Bitcoin,   these are all services that I recommend,   but they're all services that are mostly buy only. Right? They're brokerage services that are buy only, and they're sourcing Bitcoin.  

And at any given time, like, they can   not be able to source Bitcoin and not be able to get Bitcoin for you,   because they're requiring it from somewhere else. They don't have a proper   order book that's involved where you have a proper exchange that's doing sellers and buyers and matching them.   In general, though like, who the fuck is selling Bitcoin right now?   Like, there should be a Bitcoin shortage.   Like, if people are telling me there's no Bitcoin shortage, okay, guys. Like, I understand, like, theoretically,   there's no Bitcoin shortage because if there is one, then the price rises, and then you can buy Bitcoin. They'll they'll always be a price,  

[02:26:55] Unknown:

a Bitcoin shortage. That's the definition of deflationary asset.  

[02:26:59] Unknown:

The only there there is there's only one group of people selling Bitcoin under a 100 k, and those are absolute dumbasses.   Right? Like, that's the only No. No. So no. But hang on. Again,  

[02:27:13] Unknown:

anybody running a a business that has that needs cash flow,   or a treasury of a larger entity, they will be taking   profit every step of the way. They might even rebuy. Right?   But some of those will be in the actual charter of the treasury rules   that they have to rebalance at certain gain,   thresholds.   Right? So this is gonna happen.   This bull run is gonna be very different than what people experienced before. You're gonna have a lot of this little sort of like little waves coming in and out, in and out as the price goes up,   which is much healthier. It makes the bull run much longer.  

It's much bullish here.  

[02:27:55] Unknown:

How long is this gonna go for?   Forever.   Forever? Are we in the forever market?  

[02:28:01] Unknown:

It's not impossible.   If the if if, like, fortune 500 pocket starts coming in,   and they keep on rebalancing,   it just it takes the froth off the top. Right?   Right. So it keeps on creating   new   demand at every new top.   Right? Because it goes down, say 10, 20 percent,   and then and then it pumps up again, then it pumps up again, then pumps up again, And you're gonna keep on having, you know, like, liquidation events on overextended people, but just a little top.  

[02:28:33] Unknown:

Right? And and and it just keeps them going. Right? Because there's gonna be new pockets. In psychology is, like, ridiculous. Right? Like, so so I was thinking like, the other day, I was thinking,   like, who's gonna let this fucking thing go down 80%. Right?   When we know   like, at this point, like, all the things that I've considered as   extraneous concerns, like, things that I'm concerned that that Bitcoin fails. Right? And and   and and maybe I lose my money. Right? And I'm I'm just considering all these different options, and and all those things seem to evaporate it. But then at the same time,   like, all of a sudden,   like, over the last week, right, like, we started to fall, and then we fell below 50k. And then everyone was like, the end is nigh. It's all over, you know. And it's like, we're in the middle of a fucking   bull regime. Right? Like, this is like fucking we're ready to go.  

And   if that happens at the peak, like, we're gonna fucking drop 80%. We're gonna do that not we're gonna like, we're doubling  

[02:29:37] Unknown:

Here's the problem. Drop. Right? Here's the problem.   If we whenever we have 20 to 25%   drops,   it liquidates   automatically   a lot of leverage. Right?   Or Bitcoin backed loans. A lot of stuff gets liquidated.   Right. So but then what happens in the liquidation event is that it drops even further.   Right? But the thing is right now, there is enough pockets. Did you see the the buy candles at this last bottom?   Dude, like, those coins were getting picked up. Right? But the problem is all these,   all these,   like, larger entities buying,   they're trickling in.  

Right? So it's not like we have, like, 50 fortune 500s buying right now. Right? Like, they're all slowly coming in and getting online, and and these guys are only looking for, like, you know,   10, 20%   gains. So they're not in a hurry to pick up bottoms. Right? They're gonna buy slow. They don't wanna piss off shareholders. They're gonna just and they're gonna do it quiet.   Nobody's gonna announce until they absolutely have to because there's no gain in that.   Otherwise, you're just gonna buy more expensive.   Can you imagine if, like, Walmart announces tomorrow   we're buying Bitcoin? No. You you keep on buying Bitcoin for as long as you can until you have to tell your shareholders. When Apple announces, it's gonna be a 50 k day. Like, we're gonna go up $50,000.  

It could be no. My man, it could it could be   $200,000 because the price comes from the margins. Right? So   it no. Seriously, dude. Like, I'm telling you, when   when this larger entity start to come in, and the market is actually, like, in the next sort of phase of itself,   People are gonna need that old diapers.  

[02:31:27] Unknown:

We are literally   just broadcasting   to the world   our strategy of getting absolutely   fucking   rich as fuck.  

[02:31:37] Unknown:

No. No. Of buying time ignoring that.  

[02:31:39] Unknown:

People are ignoring us. It is the most   insane concept ever. Like, we are gonna have all of these recordings after the fact. We're gonna show all you guys. We're gonna show you all the recording. Like, you could have listened. You could have made it happen. You could have fucking bought in now, and you just fucking ignored us.   Keto,   what   how how do you feel in this era of corporate   Bitcoin ownership? Do you think that this thing can turn crazy on us? Or do you think that we're just it's the same cycle, different year?  

[02:32:14] Unknown:

I'm not a huge fan of it,   because these entities tend to buy a lot and and hold it.   So I think short term, it it breaks the liquidity of the market.   Like,   wasn't there a story about some exchange who ran out of of   liquidity?  

[02:32:34] Unknown:

They all all the brokers Wait. How's that bad?   That's good. That's good. It, like, there is no such thing as shortage of liquidity. It just means you have to pay more for it. Well,  

[02:32:47] Unknown:

the the price doesn't really reflect that.  

[02:32:51] Unknown:

Well, it of course, it does.   The coins are $55,000   right now.   That's what the market thinks it should be it should be, like, between use and storage and everything else.   Like, let me put it this way, a bunch of plebes,   right,   plabs with cryptography,   okay, cannot survive a state attack, period,   okay, forever. Just can't,   because we have meat bags, right, that are previous   pervious to,  

[02:33:24] Unknown:

bullets. The way I like to put it is, like like, Bitcoin itself   is state resistant, but the individuals   that use Bitcoin are not state resistant.  

[02:33:33] Unknown:

Exactly. So price pumps,   it means now you have entities   that the state cannot fuck with. Right? The state doesn't wanna break the Walmart stock.   So they're not gonna fuck with Bitcoin because if they fuck with the Bitcoin, the price crashes and they crash the stock market. Right? It it it's perfect game theory, but the BLABS are protected   by the same technology   that now the government cannot fuck with because it's gonna break the stock market. It's amazing.  

[02:34:06] Unknown:

All of the plebs.   I,   I mean, you shouldn't buy stocks. You should buy a big one. Right?   Like, why,   like, why are you chasing   the stock yields when you have when you have a proper hard money? You don't have to deal with that shit. You don't have to think.   Oh, well, we have we have   John disagrees with you hard,   but,   in the comments. Well, but just writing the word disagree doesn't really help. Yeah. John, if you wanna tell us why you disagree, we'll read it out loud.   We'll make it happen.  

[02:34:48] Unknown:

Well, Anthony says as long as the corporations don't strong-arm a fork. Yeah. But but the thing is, like, they can't.   Right? Because,   like, mining is distributed.   Right? And also a lot of the mining so a lot of the stock market is in the US, and a lot of the mining is, say, in China. Right? These these parties are at odds of each other.   Like,   the the game theory on Bitcoin is the more   disagreeable   entities   that participate   in the Bitcoin system,   the safer the Bitcoin system is because they will all disagree with each other. Oh, we're good. We're we're already there. Like, if if if the threshold is  

[02:35:34] Unknown:

what all of us disagreeing, we've made it. Exactly. We did it, fam. We did it. We just we we all hate each other. We all hate each other. We're just scaling through the payment.   Yeah. Yeah. We we cannot agree on shit.   We made it.   Good job, guys.   Taproot.   Is that gonna happen by November?  

[02:36:02] Unknown:

I don't know. I I'm running the USF client because why not?   No. It's just that speedy trial doesn't mean anything to users.  

[02:36:11] Unknown:

That's just begging miners to go and activate it with 90% threshold. Begging shit. We're just saying we're giving them the scenario where they can just fucking activate.  

[02:36:21] Unknown:

No. But but, see, if they fail to do so, there is no consequence.  

[02:36:25] Unknown:

The whole point of a speedy trial is that it's just a fucking flyer.   Right? The whole point is that you just give them a flyer and I disagree.  

[02:36:34] Unknown:

I disagree. I I think you're the main agree. No. You agree. That's the whole point. The whole point is you give them a flyer. If they accept it, then we don't have to fucking deal with any of this shit. No. No. No. No. No. No. That's not it. The the issue is the consequences of a failure of a speedy trial. Right? It's gonna be used   as as a,   as a as a as a flag of, like, hey,   the majority doesn't want this.   Right? So it could actually be used against us,   and then people are gonna be scared of doing USF because, see, part of the power of USF   is the game of   chicken. And the game of chicken,   like, you get huge advantages   by your opponent not knowing, right,   how much do you pack behind you.  

Right? So in the USF, like, it's impossible to know for for real how many people are running the client and how many people are gonna follow that for. Right?   So if we already told everybody with speedy trial   that, like, some majority does not want it, well, that that could be used as FUD.  

[02:37:44] Unknown:

No. The the whole point of speedy trial is that it's it's just a very   easy way to see if we have any kind of agreement on the minor side. If we don't have agreement on the minor side, then we can just proceed in any kind of aggressive fashion we want  

[02:38:00] Unknown:

Not knowing   is also power.   Like, the USF people can use   that   gapping knowledge   as a means to say, you know what? Like, maybe majority of those people want it. The whole point is you're irrelevant  

[02:38:17] Unknown:

if if it just is accepted.  

[02:38:20] Unknown:

If it's accepted. That's that's great. I no. It's just I'm okay if you can try it as long as it had some tiff on it.  

[02:38:30] Unknown:

It's a very interesting dynamic. I think people tend to overbear on each side, and I think it's important to realize that pretty much   we have 3 sets of stakeholders in Bitcoin, and they all have their own veto.   And everyone can veto, and if you have any individual of those 3 veto,   it's just gonna fuck you, and and you just don't want that to happen.  

[02:38:54] Unknown:

So you you just wanna avoid chaos. No. It really is just 2. Right? You have miners, and you have economic nodes.  

[02:39:03] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. You have 2. My my main concern is should we   propose our users   the different implementations  

[02:39:12] Unknown:

or not? I put exchanges separately, but you're right. It's just the same thing. Right? So you have economic nodes and you have miners.   That's right. Have devs. You have devs.  

[02:39:22] Unknown:

Yeah. But  

[02:39:24] Unknown:

but the provide so that's the 3 I had. You had you have devs you have devs providing  

[02:39:30] Unknown:

the code. It's influence. It's not power. But they're providing  

[02:39:34] Unknown:

power, but still. They're providing the code you run.  

[02:39:37] Unknown:

No. You can you can write your own.   But then you're dev, and then you're the 3rd No. But you can pay somebody to write it for you. Like, whatever. Like, I'm just trying to say, you're like, Someone writing  

[02:39:50] Unknown:

the UASF code.  

[02:39:51] Unknown:

No. The the power that the devs have comes from influence.   Right? It's like the old wise one.   They're like, you go ask the opinion before you go to war. Right?   And their influence their influence greatly matter, and also,   which I I don't like, is the fact that, like, whichever   default   core   has, right,   is really what's gonna get run by most people. Well, that's not true. Unless you have UASF.  

[02:40:21] Unknown:

Core doesn't decide shit.  

[02:40:23] Unknown:

No. But   if Core put lot through, okay,   with a very conservative timeline,   on the on the main distribution,   that would be considered   like what most people would run.   So technically, they do have that kind of influence.  

[02:40:46] Unknown:

My point is is that   is   is that   we we need to have people thinking for themselves. Right? We need we need to have people,   concerned about this, and and the key aspect of Bitcoin is that it's very hard to change. Yeah.   I mean, just having changes. It doesn't matter what your change is. Your change should be as difficult as fucking possible,   and that that is the key value prop of Bitcoin. It's that it's just very, very, very difficult to change. So  

[02:41:19] Unknown:

the just having the mystery meat client,   already helps a lot because people know that the average person could go and run it. That's a huge   win. Another   Yeah.   So   another thing that, like, was bothering me before was that there was no contention on Taproot   and Shriner.   Contention is a good thing because it brings scrutiny.   What's annoying me is not the contention is over the   the activation method,   and I also think that, like, Satoshi, everything should be activated by user activation.   It's just like like a fundamental   way of looking at Bitcoin.  



[02:42:14] Unknown:

Yep.   I mean,   I mean, it will it will not be activated without user activation. Like, what are you gonna do? Like, how else would you activate it? No. No. Wow. No. No. What I'm trying to say is that, like, miner should just mine what most of the users are running. It's it's a coordination issue. Well, miners are users.   Right?   Yes and no. They're still users. They're still  

[02:42:38] Unknown:

they're they're absolute users. They're if anything, they're Yeah. But they're not at once. They're definitely not the majority of the economic   nodes on the network.  

[02:42:48] Unknown:

Telling you more. But, yeah, they're still users.  

[02:42:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure.   But the problem is a lot of them, like   like, a lot of minors don't even know what the fuck they're doing. Right? Like, it's like they're just   I I you know, I'm not gonna be xenophobic, but, like, you just Sure. Some people You are being a little bit xenophobic.  

[02:43:08] Unknown:

Okay. So language.  

[02:43:09] Unknown:

And, like no. Seriously. It's like they no idea what's going on in the network.  

[02:43:15] Unknown:

Right. Right. Right. So so I agree. Okay. So   we just,   we were talking about Taproot. Do we think Taproot gets gets activated by November?   That's speedy trial. So so we signal 90 miners are gonna signal 90% over the next 3 months, and then it gets activated by November. Do we think that's gonna happen? Do you guys both think that's gonna happen? I think it's, 5050. Because 5050? Yeah. Because the I  

[02:43:47] Unknown:

I the the speedy trial client is not even out yet.  

[02:43:50] Unknown:

It's out. That that's the main thing. Like, everybody's saying, like, it's released. It's not released. It's a released candidate, and we don't know when it will be released. Exactly. It's not r s t one's released.   No. But it doesn't It's not a release. You can't say it's released. Yeah. It's not released.  

[02:44:06] Unknown:

So it's not released.  

[02:44:07] Unknown:

Exactly. So and it's already April. Right? Like, late April.   So,   I I I find it I'm very   this is the problem.   It feels like the the choices around speedy trial essentially set us up for failure.  

[02:44:25] Unknown:

Why?  

[02:44:27] Unknown:

Is it short timeline?   The threshold is too high.   It's giving the wrong sets of incentives.   It's that's it. It's just it's just not I don't think it's a good I think it's a great idea, like, mechanically speaking, right, is great, but I don't think the sets of incentives around speedy trial are good.   Fair enough. Incentivizes failure more than incentivizes success.  

[02:44:54] Unknown:

Kito, you have an opinion here? You've been relatively quiet.  

[02:44:59] Unknown:

I'm rather looking for one which is, should we   allow our users to choose between the UASF   client and   and Bitcoin Core and how well this UASF client will be maintained until it happens.  

[02:45:15] Unknown:

That's a difficult proposition. Like, how do you balance that as a   full node operator? Like, a full node,   provider?  

[02:45:27] Unknown:

I yeah.   So right now we have the mystery meet client,   and, you know, it's still open. You can review it, but, like, seriously, like, to reveal that, it's it's quite a bit No one's reviewing it. Yeah. Yeah. But,   you know, maybe   maybe, as as the   actually, let me put it this way.   If   if the if the SPILI trial   fails,   I think the contention   in division is gonna be worst,   and there's gonna be a lot more power behind the USF   client.   But but,   it also gonna be trickier because you're gonna know that only a small   amount of miners wants to do it. So would you be set yourself up for failure?   It's, I don't like the game here on this.  



[02:46:24] Unknown:

I would be more comfortable if it was an option a configuration option in Bitcoin Core instead of a Yeah.  

[02:46:30] Unknown:

Separate software. Many people advocated for that. Wait. So why why they're, like, completely against that idea. They hate that concept of the con configure option.   Like, it makes so much sense. Like, why can't it just be a UX thing? Like, why can't it just be yes, no, taproot?  

[02:46:48] Unknown:

I think they don't want to,   I I think they don't wanna be part of risking,   network split.  

[02:46:57] Unknown:

It's weird. Right? Though, like like, that makes a lot of sense to me. That   it seems like it it would be effective.  

[02:47:05] Unknown:

People are just too PTSD the last UASF.   Like, if if most people were just sort of saying they're all for the thing now, I think everybody just, like like, align.   And and Right. The the other biggest problem is that, like, there is no boogeyman   for for people to rally against.   Right?   It's much easier to sort of to to humans   to to sorry, to to, to organize humans around something when there is an enemy. Right?   And because there is one,   people are just not, like, getting a fire in their diocese.  

[02:47:44] Unknown:

Yeah. No   doubt.   So tomorrow   today is Tuesday, Bitcoin Tuesday. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. Thank you for joining us.   Tomorrow, we have Satoshi disappear day, which is the day that everyone basically realized that Satoshi disappeared,   which was actually 2 days earlier,   on   April   26th,   they realized Satoshi disappeared.   But 2 days later, they they came to that conclusion, and they came to the Toastia Disappear Day. So we're gonna have a full livestream for Bitcoin Magazine.   One of the things that I've been working on for the last month or so.   Fantastic fucking lineup. It's gonna be fucking crazy. You guys should all check it out,   on the on the Twitter fucking feed of Bitcoin Magazine. Definitely check that out.  

MBK,   Keter Miner,   this has been fantastic. I think this has been one of our best episodes   so far.   Do you guys have anything specific you wanna talk about before we finish this up? Or  

[02:48:59] Unknown:

not not really. Thanks for these 3 hours almost of of talk. It was really, really   great to be here.  

[02:49:08] Unknown:

Yeah. It was fun. I don't have really much more to add, I think.  

[02:49:13] Unknown:

So we have cold card wallet dot com. Check that out for cold card, and nodl dot it for nodl.   I love both of you guys. You guys have been fucking killing it.   I don't know, freaks. Like, I fucking love you all. Thank you for joining us, Priscilla, dispatch.   I I do this for you guys, and I do this for myself because I just have a fun time. Every Bitcoin Tuesday is fucking fantastic.   I hope most of you will be at Bitcoin Miami. If you are,   I look forward to having a drink with you guys.   Stay adversarial.   Question everything.   Do not let influencers tell you that you should send your Bitcoin into some kind of custodian to get interest for it. That is just stupid.  

And, like, fuck the whole idea of sponsorships and shit.   Like, let's fucking go audience only.   Fund this shit. I mean, guys, like, to be quite honest,   you could do a little bit stronger. Like, I love you all. Like, you've fucking contributed, and I appreciate everything you've fucking done. But, like, no wonder people fucking go with sponsors. Like, it is very difficult to deal with this whole idea of   I have to, like, desperately ask you for donations every time. Like, I don't wanna do this.   Stream stats, learn how to use podcasting 2 point o. That's really fucking cool. It's just very fluid system.   But if you don't wanna do that, go to civil dispatch.com.  

You can send lump sums to   me via Bitcoin.   And if you do that, you can leave a message. And if you leave a message and it's a fun fucking message, I will fucking read it on the fucking podcast. Of course, I will. Because why wouldn't I? I love you all. Big thanks to NVK. Big thanks to Keaton Miner.   I'm looking forward to seeing you guys soon,   and, stay humble, StackSats. Peace.  

[02:51:11] Unknown:

Thank you, Matt.   Thanks.  

[02:51:49] Unknown:

Price, you mean we'd be nice and you can go and send me on my way.   I said you're such a sweet old thing, no way you do this to yourself. She looked at me  

[02:54:17] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. That was fucking awesome. I'll see you for our HR on Thursday.   I'll see you next week   for the next fucking dispatch   on Tuesday,   the usual time, 21 100 UTC,   this time with Wiz. It looks like we're gonna have Rod,   formerly from Bitcoin Magazine,   Ben River,   just a good guy all around. I think you're gonna fucking love him.   Cheers to all of you. Stay humble, Stacks s. Peace.