Citadel Dispatch

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NVK is CoFounder of Coinkite, the makers of Coldcard. Coldcards are designed to help users securely use bitcoin offline. We discuss the variety of features that Coldcards provide users and the tradeoffs present when choosing how to best secure bitcoin.

Disclosure: Ten31 is the exclusive investor in Coinkite.

my easy coldcard guide: https://werunbtc.com/coldcard

NVK on Nostr: https://primal.net/nvk
NVK on X: https://x.com/nvk
Coinkite:  https://coinkite.com/

Ten31: https://www.ten31.xyz/
Cove Wallet: https://covebitcoinwallet.com/
Sparrow Wallet: https://sparrowwallet.com/
Bull Wallet: https://wallet.bullbitcoin.com/
White Noise: https://www.whitenoise.chat/
Bitkey: https://bitkey.world/

EPISODE: 183
BLOCK: 923180
PRICE:  967 sats per dollar

(00:03:36) Whats New at Coinkite and the Growing User Base

(00:05:24) Designing for Global Users and Changing Threat Models

(00:06:36) Power vs. Simplicity

(00:08:44) Onboarding Stories

(00:09:56) Mobile vs Desktop Habits and Emerging Wallets

(00:14:28) QR Workflows, NFC Push-tx, and SD Card Signing

(00:15:32) Travel and Borders

(00:17:04) Key Teleport: Device to Device Encrypted Sharing

(00:22:38) Spending Policies

(00:25:02) Trick PINs, Duress Flows, and Safe Inspired Defenses

(00:29:02) Border Stories and Why Brick Me PIN Exists

(00:31:05) SeedXOR vs Passphrase vs Multisig

(00:34:07) Family Planning and Inheritance Strategies

(00:40:00) Physical Security Model: Dual SE + MCU

(00:43:37) Comparisons to Trezor Designs and Components

(00:49:44) Seeds as Sovereignty and Unilateral Exit

(00:53:21) Debate: iCloud Backups, Ease vs Sovereignty

(01:00:08) Bitkey Debate: Goals, Risks, and Break Glass Exit

(01:08:54) Edge Cases, Loss Scenarios, and Marketing Ethics

(01:20:05) Coinkite Roadmap

(01:22:23) Future Products

(01:28:01) Touchscreens, Supply Chain Risk, and PWAs

(01:30:31) Cove, White Noise MLS, and AI Bots

(01:32:26) Nostr Adoption, Socials, and Moderation

(01:41:36) Wrap Up, Gratitude, and Ways to Support

more info on the show: https://citadeldispatch.com
learn more about me: https://odell.xyz

[00:00:02] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday,   freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and FreedomTech   discussion.   Well, I guess, historically, it's been interactive and live, but the last three rips   have been audio only and not live, and I've been liking the vibe. So I'm gonna run with it for a bit longer.   Maybe we'll go back to live. Maybe we won't.   Just having fun with it. Hope you guys have been enjoying the rips. As always, dispatch is ad free, sponsor free, supported by viewers like you with Bitcoin.   All relevant links are at silldispatch.com.  

Share with your friends and family. The top zaps for the last two episodes,   was, the top zap for the Francis episode was 21,000 sats from stimmy   40 HPW.   He said great rip.   So was Francis. Congratulations to you and your family. That was a mistake. That was from the last rip that I did,   on arcade.   The top zap from the Francis rip was doctor doggy balls. He said epic rip. Francis is the type of technical fearless cypherpunk   we need more of in this space.   Thank you, Freaks, for continuing to support the show.   I hope you've been enjoying it. I know there was a lot of good feedback from the Alex rip, the Millian rip, the Francis rip.  

So we're gonna keep the signal going. Today, I got good friend,   return guest,   MVK,   cofounder of CoinKite. You might know the cold card or the block clock. How's it going, MVK?  

[00:01:41] NVK:

Good, man. How's it going, Matt? Thanks for having me.  

[00:01:45] ODELL:

It's good to always good to have a chat. Always good to have a chat.  

[00:01:50] NVK:

I'm happy to be part of the downgrade into,   no livestream.  

[00:01:55] ODELL:

Well, you know, RHR used to be no live audio only,   and our SIL dispatches are always audio only anyway.   But, yeah, I'm just having fun with it. I enjoy I feel like the conversation video, man. Screw video. Fuck video.   I feel like the conversation ends up being better,   because people are more laid back. You don't have a, you know, four k camera on you.   I think the audio quality comes out better, but we'll see how it goes. Freaks, as always, you can provide feedback on Primal,   any Nostra app, fountain podcast. I love your comments. I love your the zaps, obviously.   It's a real skin in the game.  

But, yeah, give me your feedback, and we'll just keep the signal going. But MBK, anyway, the freaks know I love cold card. I guess start off with we'll start off with just a quick disclosure that,   my investment fund ten thirty one is the largest investor, the only external investor in CoinKite.   We're very proud of that fact.   But I've been using Coldcard since way before we invested. That's why we invested.   I've been using Coldcard since the MK one with its shitty   glitchy buttons.   So   what's new with Coldcard? You guys have been releasing a bunch of updates. It's hard for me to keep track of,   everything that's been coming out.  



[00:03:16] NVK:

Yeah, man. It's like,   there is there's so many new users to Bitcoin. I I know it's hard to to, like, break through the the stupid narrative on Twitter of, like, you   know, it's hard to use or,   you know, there there is no new people in in Bitcoin. They're all buying ETF blah blah blah blah blah. Right? But reality is there is, like, tens of thousands of people who are   actually new and actually have Bitcoin and have actual need of self custody.  

[00:03:45] ODELL:

So   Yeah. I mean, I I'm just gonna cut you off real quick. Like, I think there's two things that people like, perspective wise, it's the percentage of total Bitcoiners that are holding Bitcoin in self custody   is   is lower than it has been before because we have ETFs, because we have Bitcoin stocks, because we have a bunch of different custodial options.   But, like, the absolute number of Bitcoin hold Bitcoin Bitcoiners holding self custody, like, the total number of people is just up into the right. We have way more people holding self custody than ever before. I mean, it's crazy that, like, you know, a company that makes a weird little  

[00:04:21] NVK:

clear plastic device with a keyboard on it. You know, like, it's a real mid sized business. You   know? Like,   it's like we're we're not small business.   And, you you know, that's, like, proof that there is a market out there for people who really give a shit.   And, you know but because there is so many new people in   and they all live in different countries, they all live in different cities, they all have different economic   capacities.   They all have different family types. You know? Like, there's a lot of diversity   on the type of user. We have to design for them. Right? Like, we we have to have a large design space   for their needs.  

You know, if you live in a country where, you know, like, you have a security guard to go to the mall,   you have a different type of security need than, you know, some guy who lives in New York and can walk to Starbucks alone even though maybe he's, you know, a 100 millionaire. Right?   So we we have to come up with solutions for that.   And then on top of that, there's been a massive shift in the last five years   of our core user base that no longer lives in the same place.   Like, you know, seriously, like, I I'd say, like, like, a good half of our users, which is, like, the largest amount of Bitcoiners   who hold Bitcoin,   who, you know,   who hold Bitcoin,   in self custody in a hardware wallet. It's you know, that's that's cold card users. Right?  

They   decided to move. Like, a good half of them decided to move countries.   And now, like, they they are the digital nomads or or they're just, like, between countries.   They're they're testing out new places. So we have to we have to support in the design space,   a type of usability that now requires multiple residences that that require, you know, crossing borders. They require all this stuff.   That's becoming the norm. Right?   So so a lot of the requirements have progressed, changed, evolved,   and that's where we've been sort of, like, really focusing in the last couple years in terms of updates.  

[00:06:36] ODELL:

I mean, it's both a it's both a benefit and a curse of the cold cards. Right? Is that, like, it's   you can use it in a million different ways depending on your threat model,   use case and technical competence, but,   that that can be quite overwhelming for people because they overthink   they they have a lot of decisions to make when they use your products. You know? I mean, we we make we make a very sort of conscious ethical decision  

[00:07:03] NVK:

on we do not make cold card app. There's not gonna be a cold card app on your phone   because we we don't believe that is the ethical thing to do. It it really is that simple. Like, a a you should have it at minimum two vendors   between you and your cold card and your wallet and your, Bitcoin is being spent.   Right?   The the app could lie to you. There's all kinds of issues on that. We can get into that later. But the the point is so so that does   create   a a slight barrier of entry. Right? So now you're dependent on Cove, you're dependent on Sparrow, you're dependent on Cove. A big win. I since you've last been on, Cove didn't exist before.  

[00:07:44] ODELL:

That's right. I just onboarded   one of my my only buddy who   who listened to me in high school and bought Bitcoin.   I, unfortunately, did not discover Bitcoin in high school, but he was my high school friend. And when I was in college, I told him to buy Bitcoin,   and he listened to me.   And   at the time,   you know, I think I onboarded him originally to a paper wallet. I had one of those, like, paper wallet printers.   And then when we upgraded him from a paper wallet,   Coldcard was still a little bit too complicated. Like, I think it might have been even pre Sparrow,  

[00:08:22] NVK:

and I onboarded him to Ledger. Well, it's definitely pre Sparrow if you're in college.  

[00:08:27] ODELL:

No. Yeah. But I'm talking about, like, Coldcard existed. I had the option to onboard him to Coldcard, but I onboard I moved him from a paper wallet to   I moved him from a paper wallet to Ledger because I thought Coldcard was too complicated at that point. And then I just recently moved him to a Coldcard queue with Cove because it was, like, finally,   like, this guy is,   you know, he's he's he was he was smart enough to stack and hold, but he's technically,  

[00:08:55] NVK:

very   The experience with Q and and Cove, it's it's,  

[00:08:59] ODELL:

like, it doesn't get easier than that. It's easier than That's what I'm saying. It was it was intuitive to him. Right? And, like, so Cove what Cove came out, you know, six months ago. I feel like that was the the fact that you didn't have your own   app was a big hold off for a lot of people, and Cove kind of filled that hole. Now the big issue, I think, with Cove right now is that it's iPhone only.  

[00:09:21] NVK:

It's coming. It's coming.   Also, now there is a Bull Bitcoin that has both iOS and Android, similar experience with you can't send? It's watch only, I think.   I think you can send.  

[00:09:37] ODELL:

I I was testing it out. I like so I just had Francis on.   Have you tested it out? No. I have not tested myself yet. I just I had Francis on two rips ago, and I really like Bullwala. I think it's a good trade off balance. I think it's a fantastic spending wallet. I think it's great as, like, the go between.   But I'm pretty sure right now I was testing it   I was testing it out with, one of my test cold card queues,   two days ago,   because of that sparrow issue that I was telling you about. And I think, it was,   I think it's just for deposits.  



[00:10:14] NVK:

Okay.  

[00:10:17] ODELL:

The idea being that you receive on lightning from your exchange or you receive on liquid from your exchange, and then you auto deposit to your cold storage. Yeah. My guess is that he's gonna they're gonna enable spending. They're moving quite quickly. Easy.   But I don't think it's enabled yet. Yeah. But yeah. But it while it is is multi platform, which is nice. Yeah. But, anyways, I mean, like, reality is,  

[00:10:39] NVK:

you know, the majority of the people who have significant funds in Bitcoin end up migrating to a computer with Sparrow anyways.   Like, it is, you know, it's it's it's nice to it's it's great that it can start with code   on and and get started with a harder wallet.   You know, if that's, like, Sats card, if that's cold card, if that's, like, you know, some other harder wallet, whatever it is. It's all open standards.   And oh, yeah. You can spend from cold card. Francis says right here. Oh, you just asked him? Yeah. Okay. Well, it's not as intuitive as it could be. Well, I mean, you know, you'll get there.  

[00:11:17] ODELL:

I mean, like, I got I got kids now. I think I spent,   a cumulative twenty minutes trying to It's all good, man. I like kids screaming in the background, but I couldn't get it I couldn't get it to spend from the cold card. Yeah. It's, it's there's a lot of stuff out there too. It's hard to keep track.  

[00:11:33] NVK:

So, anyway, so so the the point is, like, you know,   I I think that once I think no. I mean, like, we see it on the user base and we see the from feedback. Right? That as soon as people have significant amount of money,   they move to the computer experience. The same way you don't you don't send, you know, like, a million dollars wire from your phone. Like, you go, you log in into your web doesn't let me send wires from my phone.   Well, you you get there. You need your little token shit and all and all that stuff. Plus, I mean, mean, you know, who has a million dollars in fiat left in this space? But,   the the the point is,   I I think there is a progression on the experience that is important to sort of You think that's true? I mean, like, I I definitely  

[00:12:16] ODELL:

I a 100% prefer desktop. I mean Yeah. The sparrow experience is way better. We we see Matt, we see it from customers. Like,  

[00:12:24] NVK:

you know, the the part that's not visible to people is, like, how much just imagine with the size of install base, Coldcard has. Right? With the it's eight years being the biggest hardware wallet for Bitcoiners.   Right?   Like, the kind of feedback we get internally that we can't share,  

[00:12:41] ODELL:

it's it's ginormous. Like, we see the volume of support, where it comes from. Like, the different demographic. Maybe the cold card demographic, but, like, I'd be interested in, like, the ledger stats. Like, I I I bet you the majority of ledger users are like, especially younger people. I think younger   Younger peep but younger people like mobile. Like, this guy I'm gonna use this guy as an example again. This kid. This kid. He's he's my age. I,   but his technical level is kid level. I   Bitcoin. It's a large amount for him.   He likes having it, you know, on mobile. He likes being able to, you know, when he wakes up in the middle of the night with cold sweats and thinking he doesn't he lost his Bitcoin, like, checking the balance on mobile, you know, and looking at it. He would never use a desktop wallet.  



[00:13:34] NVK:

Well, maybe It doesn't matter how much it is. Maybe maybe when he decides to spend a large amount, he might.   But it doesn't matter. The point is that,   you know, now it's possible to do it on the phone. Right.   You know, people who have a lot of Bitcoin tend to be older,   so they they are more desktop friendly.  

[00:13:53] ODELL:

Yeah.  

[00:13:55] NVK:

And,   you know,   you're getting like, with this experience, like, it's just so stupid easy.   Like, it is hard to convey to people because people are used to the old experiences that they had with hardware wallets. They have not tried to just scan a QR on a phone, on a cold card, and then tap the phone   to broadcast a transaction.  

[00:14:16] ODELL:

Like Yeah. The QR code, by the way, works it feels better on phone than it feels on Yeah. Because the phone wall the phone has a better camera. And it's, like, awkward holding it up to the webcam or whatever versus, like,  

[00:14:28] NVK:

just pointing the camera. You just do push t x. Right? You just tap. So you scan Sparrow.  

[00:14:34] ODELL:

Right? Oh, I see what you're saying. You don't do the second step, then you tap on the phone. Yes.  

[00:14:39] NVK:

Once you try that experience, it's hard to to try to wanna do anything else. Like, it really is simple.  

[00:14:46] ODELL:

Right. So you're setting up the in your in your   in your use case, you're set you're setting up your transaction on on Sparrow on desktop,   then you're scanning it once with the cold card queue   or loading with SD card, signing it. And then instead of transferring it back to Sparrow to broadcast, you're just tapping it for a broadcast. Yeah. And that works at Cove as well. Right? So, like, I I do that myself. Like, you just scan  

[00:15:10] NVK:

cove from cold card, and then it just tap and boom. Done.   Push that really fucking awesome. No. Dude, like, push the axis. It's a game changer. Like, it really is game changer.   I personally haven't used an SD card in a long time.   Anyways, so so we're trying to support all these use cases. Right?   And  

[00:15:33] ODELL:

Okay. So let's go through the use cases. Let's go the big one for me is is borders. Borders are if Yes. You're either ignorant or you're scared of borders. There's no Yes. There's no there's no in between. Like, borders are, like, in the modern day, if you're a big foreigner, it's probably the worst thing you can do. Yeah. You have no rights. You have no rights on a border. Right? Yeah. So how do you guys think about borders and cold cards and So there is a few there's a few models, right, that and and it really depends on what kind of use or what kind of threat model you have personally. Right? But  

[00:16:04] NVK:

people do carry their micro SD cards cross borders. I don't recommend taking devices.   If you do carry a device, then make sure you're compliant with, you know, the the amount   of coin you can have for the border crossing. You know, there there's all kinds of   compliance issues around that. Under 10,000,000 sats or whatever. Right.   But then what a lot of people do is, you know, they will have, you know, a device set up on the other location.   Like, you know, say for some, they're moving. Right?   People either take a micro SD card,   with, like, part of the multisig or they also take, just a cold card backup.  

Micro SD card. Encrypted micro USD  

[00:16:48] ODELL:

micro SD backup?  

[00:16:50] NVK:

Yep. Another thing that people do now is they have somebody else, you know, on the other side that, like, family kind of thing, and they say they need to send, you know, some they need to send the backup of the cold card. They just do key teleport.  

[00:17:05] ODELL:

Yeah. So explain key teleport.  

[00:17:07] NVK:

So   the the the problem   was   if you're trying to send an encrypted piece of information from one place to another,   you you have to use something to encrypt it. So you have to trust your computer, and you cannot trust your computer with keys.  

[00:17:22] ODELL:

Right? You're, like, making a password to encrypt it or whatever.  

[00:17:26] NVK:

Yeah. But, you know, the computer can see your private keys, clear text, right, which is terrible. No. You're literally typing your password into the computer.   And you can't trust the comms either. Right? You can't trust the chats. You can't trust the the phone. You can't trust the Internet. You can't trust anything. So what do you trust? Like pasting a seed into signal or whatever is probably not the worst thing, but you shouldn't do it. It's it's it's up there the worst thing, especially if you're using   signal on a computer.  

Remember the clipboard on a computer is seen by all the apps.   Right. Like, literally. Like, it's really bad.   So so, anyway, so what what we did was you already trust your cold card with your most ultimate secret, which is your private key. Right?   So we created a protocol   for you to send   encrypted data from a cold card to another cold card   independent of Medium.   So you can use it in a video call with QR codes. You can do it with a link.   You can use it, you know, in a chat message. All kind anything really, there is a way to do it now.   And all you have to do really is that the receiver shows a QR code or link   to the other party. The other party essentially scans with your cold card.  



[00:18:41] ODELL:

So what? Like, we're doing, like, a signal video call or, like, a FaceTime or something. Right? Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And we're not trusting the video. Like, the the We're not trusting the video. Google Meet can intercept that QR code. It doesn't matter. That's right.   And it was done in, like, proper parallel. Like a public key exchange. So if the public key gets compromised, it doesn't matter. And then that's what's being used. That's what's being used to encrypt it. We also wrap the the  

[00:19:09] NVK:

the the key the pub key of that   with a PIN.   So there is a PIN on the screen on the cold card that it can give it in a separate medium if you want it to be extra paranoid. So they can give you Google Meet or FaceTime, we're sharing the QR codes with each other, and then I'm, like, signal messaging them the PIN. Yeah.   So now you have, like, a a protected like, a private and encrypted envelope. Right?   And and so the other side can send to you whatever they want. They can send you a message. They can send you SSH keys if you're dev abroad. They can send you a backup the whole backup of that cold card. They can send the backup of a different cold card. They can send,   BIP 30 a BIP 85 key. They can send a password if you have a password manager. Yeah. Yeah. Child key. They can send a password. They can send a note.  

Anything, really.   And that really opens up the design space a lot. Right? So say for example, your wife is in a different country. She needs some bucks.   You know, like,   you you want to send like, she has access to a, like, an a Virgin cold card there or something.   You can send her a premade cold card with a lot of money, but with spending policies, for example,  

[00:20:17] ODELL:

already preset up. Okay. So let's talk about the spending policies. That's a new feature.  

[00:20:22] NVK:

Yeah.   So we have we we created spending policies for multisig.  

[00:20:27] ODELL:

Right? Yeah. I think, that was made a lot of sense. What I was saying about earlier. Like, it's Yeah. It's insane. Incredibly awesome on power users, but people get overwhelmed because there's so many different features. The the problem is that don't change. Thank you. I like all the power user features, but it's just worth if you're out there and you're overwhelmed,   you can use cold card in an incredibly simple way. And you can start there and then you can It takes five minutes or, like, two minutes really. Yeah. You can literally just do single sig, no passphrase,  

[00:20:55] NVK:

no spending policies, nothing. The menu is simple on on Yeah. You know, it's remember, we're entering the advanced menu system here.  

[00:21:02] ODELL:

Okay. Let's talk about spending policies because I think this is pretty cool. So so this is this is very nice because,  

[00:21:08] NVK:

see, a lot of times, like, the reality is single sig is what's good enough   for most people. Like, the 80% single sig is more than adequate.   And then if they have a lot of money, maybe single sig plus plus phrase. Right? Like, that's it. Like, most   the great majority of people don't need multisig, cannot use multisig,   realistically speaking. So so what did we do? We're like, okay. The we we know   the limitation of security. The hardware, it's, like, it's pretty high. Right?  

[00:21:37] ODELL:

So why Wait. Wait. Real quick. Real quick. Just on the on the multisig side, my operating   what what I say to people, how I think about it is if you're an organization   or if you're a public figure, multisig   is probably what you should do.   Like, I use multisig.   My organizations use multisig. Yes.   But for most people   everyone that doesn't fall in that category, it's probably single sig. And if you're a little bit more technically competent, single sig plus passphrase, so you have a decoy wallet. I mean Specifically, like, that border that border situation. Right? They get your cold card. You can open it for them. There could be money in it. But if they don't have the passphrase, they don't have, like, the the big wallet.  

[00:22:18] NVK:

And another thing too is, you know, most people can keep 12 words safe. Right? Like, they can they can they can put it even in a fucking drawer, that metal plate is likely to be fine.  

[00:22:29] ODELL:

Well, that's the nice thing about the passphrase too. If they find that plate and they don't have the passphrase We can we can cover that later. We can talk about this. Okay. Sorry.   Okay. We'll talk about this later. Okay. Spending policy. Sorry. So spending policy,  

[00:22:41] NVK:

what is it? It's it's a very simple way, especially in single sig,   for you to have the device enforced policy. It really is that simple. So you have a you have a PIN.   If you log in, it's gonna and you set it up, you say, like, oh, I don't want you to let me spend more than 1 Bitcoin per week. I don't want you to let me spend more than,   you know, in a certain way, or I don't want you to let me spend to any other address than this white list. Maybe it's your, you know, vault account or your exchange account.   And I also don't   and I also want you to require me to do a two FA with my Google Authenticator,   for example.  

Right? So and it can be a mix of this. It could be a single of these, but but, essentially, that's the spending policies.   So what happens is once you set it up, the device goes into what we call hobble mode. It doesn't let you see the software version. It doesn't let you see the seed. It doesn't let you do anything really. Right? It's just, like,   very, very,   restricted device in super simple mode. So you can give it to a company person. So now they are able to spend money. Right? Or you can give it to a, a partner that you'd like. You don't wanna put your, like, your wife at risk,  

[00:23:53] ODELL:

right, for having more than they should be able to spend. Maybe you want her to be able to spend, you know, a thousand a week or something. That's right.  

[00:24:01] NVK:

Your kids, your coworkers, or whatever. Right? Or or when you try be clear here, I could you could always if you do this, you can always take the seed, restore it to a new device, and then you have no restrictions. Or even the same device. You just prove that you own that you know the seed, and you're good to go.   But it it's very hardened.   And, now you have a device that that, you know, like, limits what you can do. It's it's it's quite powerful.  

[00:24:26] ODELL:

So that can be used for borders too. Right? Like, you could set it to, like, a thousand dollars a month before you cross the border. Yep. And it's it's great for fraud. It really is. If it gets confiscated,   then, like,   the border guards can only spend a thousand dollars a month before you sweep it. Border agents, you know, like a Brittany pin and problem resolved. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about the I think the pins remain, like, the   single best feature that's no one ever talks about of cold card. Well, it's because nobody wants to talk their own security. Right? No one is there another I don't think there's a single other device out there with   even a brick me pin, let alone No. You have, like, a million pins now. There's, like, seven different options.  



[00:25:07] NVK:

Yeah. What we wanted to do was And then you could, like, mix and match them. Yes. Whatever. It's crazy. We we we we renamed the rest pins to trick pins.   Right? Because the the idea is to create so much design space that there is no expectation   of you either having a pin that does something different,   or you can do any combination. And, like, people don't have   a a a pre knowledge  

[00:25:29] ODELL:

or or an idea of what you could do. Bad guy comes into your home, he knows how ledgers work.   You either you you either put in the right pin and it shows your wallet, or you put in the wrong pin three times and the thing wipes. Those are the only two options you can do.  

[00:25:42] NVK:

Yes. With cold card, it's just, like, limitless. Right? So,   you can create, like, many pins that do different things, but you can have a pin that bricks. You can have a pin that makes the device looks virgin.   You can have a pin that makes the device look virgin plus erases the c or doesn't erase the c.   You know, you can have a pin that hides the passwords. Like,   essentially, like,   the the point is not to get overwhelmed. It's for you to to to not be limited by what the device can do, is to be limited by where your imagination   and your risk appetite can do.  

Right?   So you think of what you can do, and the device can sort of follow you on your,   on your journey.   This is very so this is the thing. Like, we   we study a lot of, like, how banks handle things,   and, you know, they have, you know, hundreds of years of handling stuff in safes.   Right?   You know, so for example, one thing that they do is they put a lock down a lockout timer. Right? So   the the bank branch you have like, if you try to to get in, you have to open the the bank like, open the vault, that specific vault, let's say, three hours before you need it.   So you can set code card to say, hey. Don't open   for three hours, or don't open for ten hours, or don't open for half an hour. Right? So And then the bad guy has to, like, sit there for fucking   three hours. They're in a which they're often in a hurry, which is, you know, tricky.  

And if they unplug, it kind of, like, starts the timer from where it was,   or or sorry. It starts from the beginning again.   The another thing that you do, like, is is, for example, there is a duress pin. See, like, in banks, if you type a a different pin or or a delta pin,   what happens is they do a silent alarm. Right? So they start calling the authorities. Well, we can't call the authorities from a cold card because it's not a cell phone. But,   you know, you can show a fake wallet.  

[00:27:41] ODELL:

You can use the right What is the one of the trick pin modes is delta mode. Right? Yes.   What does that one do?  

[00:27:48] NVK:

So delta just means you're you're doing essentially, it's like the the first pin,   and then you get the last one minus   the previous one.   What does that mode do if you put in that pin? So it's just a type of it's a type of pin that's common with safes.   So Yep. But all the trick pins do something. They all cost some You you can do whatever you want. Like, all of them   it's just that the with the delta mode, it can be it's your real   PIN,   so you don't have to remember   a new trick PIN.  

[00:28:21] ODELL:

Got it.  

[00:28:22] NVK:

And,  

[00:28:23] ODELL:

and But it's, like, all by one or something. Exactly.  

[00:28:26] NVK:

So   the the the point is,   again, like, in the bank industry, in the safe industry,   like, this this types of behaviors already exist, and we have a lot of customers that already have very fancy safes.   So we try to emulate a lot of that that behavior in the devices. Right?   But for example, you know, how cool is it that you can show a fake wallet and wipe your seat at the same time?   You know? So, like, you know, this is what I have.   You   know? Like, it's,   it's it's quite powerful.   I mean, the the break me pin was designed because I was crossing a border, and I forgot a code card with me. And I wanted to erase   the seed before I crossed the border because I forgot the device with me. You're, like, literally in the customs line. You're just trying to erase like, oh, shit. I have to log in and delete the seed. Right? I'm like, no. It should be just a Britney pin.  

So so then we have a Britney pin now.   So, anyway, so so when you start pairing some of these things, like and, you know, maybe you have to do a little bit of learning. This is not for the person using this for the first time, by the way. This is you know, you did your five minute setup. You you know, like, great. You have a cold card running. Right? Now, like, as you as you acquire more Bitcoin, you should actually learn more about what you have.   You know, because if you're not willing to learn, you're gonna get robbed in some other way.   That's the reality of it.  

So you learn a bit more, and and you go like, hey. You know what? Like,   I could maybe split my seed with SeedXor. I could maybe add spending policies. I can do these things. And, you know, there is enough documentation. Documentation is awesome,   and and you can do it. I I I don't think I don't like this narrative that people have where it's, oh, people can't do it. People are not gonna do it. No, man. Like, people can people can learn how to drive, have their whole family in the car at a 120 kilometers an hour in the highway. So, like, literally, like, if you want risk, you put your family in a car.   That's literally a death machine by statistics. Right?  

If you can learn how to drive, you can learn how to do, like, even advanced stuff in a cold car.  

[00:30:40] ODELL:

That's 75 miles per hour.  

[00:30:43] NVK:

There you go.  

[00:30:44] ODELL:

I asked Maple.   I mean, I agree with that, but, I mean, I also think, like, more options are good. Like, I I don't It's great. That's like a one I don't but I don't think it's, like, a one size fits all. Like, I don't think cold card's best for everybody.  

[00:30:58] NVK:

I agree.   There is, like we need more options, but we need interoperable options.  

[00:31:06] ODELL:

Let's talk about real quick. You mentioned Cedexor. How do you think about Cedexor? Because,   I was gonna onboard that friend to Cedexor, and you told me not to.  

[00:31:18] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, like, you have to, like you know, it's great.   So it's great. CDXR is really good. But, you know, again, it's an advanced feature. Right? And people need to understand that, like, it is not   Shamir. It's not there is no threshold.   Right?  

[00:31:35] ODELL:

You have to have both parts in order to redo that seed. Right. So instead of one seed, you basically have two seeds. Right? And you need both. Yes. So  

[00:31:44] NVK:

ideally,   the people using XOR, they do have an original seed back up somewhere,   and maybe the XOR is just more accessible.   Right? So if you decide to go bury your seed in Antarctica,   you know, and you wanna   have accessible seed again in your country where you can, you know, put one in each safe deposit box in different banks by different people,   you know, it does work.  

[00:32:10] ODELL:

But,   how do you think about Seedexor versus,  

[00:32:13] NVK:

like, single just a regular seed with the passphrase? Because, I mean, regular seed and the passphrase is also two pieces. I think it's I like, again, I keep on saying this. Like, CDX store, very specific use cases is for very few users. Right? But people do use it.   I still think that a single sig plus passphrase is is, like, sufficient for pretty much   everybody except for people who have very real   needs or companies.  

[00:32:42] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, CDX or doesn't solve that either. Then you're going to multisig.  

[00:32:46] NVK:

Yeah. Exactly.   Because you need   You you you can't have one person in a company be able to spend If you need to split the series in more than three pieces, just use just use multisig.  

[00:32:59] ODELL:

But, technically, you can do, like, you can do a   can you do, like, you can do, like, a four piece seed export. Right?  

[00:33:06] NVK:

No. It's only two right now. Only two? Okay. I mean, you could do Well, you wouldn't. But it gets tricky. You can do more, but it gets even trickier. No. No. The point is just use multisig. By the way, if you if you have multisig, but you're still a single person signer for this, you could   use cold card   multisig spending policy   so that the cold card has one key.   You have another key. They're both in the cold card.   Just one is protected by the   spending policy, and then the other key is, you know, buried somewhere.   That still works   very well, actually.  



[00:33:45] ODELL:

Was it like a one of it's like a one of two multisig?  

[00:33:48] NVK:

No. No. Two. Two out of three.   It's just that one of the seeds is, like, protected by spending policy under the same device.  

[00:33:57] ODELL:

So but you would have to dig out the other you'd have to dig out the third one if you wanted to spend more than the spending policy. Exactly. Yeah. So you can bypass that by going after the other seed.   What, I mean   so I have a growing family. The big question all Bitcoiners are getting older now. We seem to reproduce more than the general population.   Really?   The number one question and the number one thought on my mind all the time is inheritance.   How do you think about inheritance and cold cards and   all this stuff? Because that's where it gets   I mean, once again, I just keep using my my friend as an example.  

Like, his inheritance strategy is his wife   knows to get the steel plate and then call me, which I don't think is a scalable   first, it was a heavily trusted inheritance plan,   but it's definitely not scalable.  

[00:34:49] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you can choose the aristocratic   method, right, where you have a trusted family   that is friends of your family.   And, you know, maybe they hold a key and maybe you have, like, another key in a a,   safe deposit Like a multisig   Yeah. Trusted relationship. There's lots of, yeah, there's lots of ways to do that.   Again, like, the question is, like, do you want the state to be part of your,   transition,   or you don't want the state to be part of your transition? Right? Like, generally speaking,   if you don't want the state to be part of your transition, you're gonna have to do something that's a little bit more complicated,   right,   than what all the the current fiat system can do. Right? Because So what do you think do you think  

[00:35:34] ODELL:

if people are thinking about inheritance, they should like, how should they think about single sig inheritance?   Yeah. I mean, if That's what the majority of users if if   we agree that the majority users for their threat model,   the best balance of complexity and security is probably single sig plus passphrase.  

[00:35:50] NVK:

How should they think about inheritance though? Well, I mean, you know, like, they can pass on a seed. Right? I mean, the wife knows where the seed is. Wife takes it. Yeah. That's it. Right? I mean, it's not that long. You trust your wife is the strategy. Yeah. I mean, if you don't trust your wife, you have bigger problems.  

[00:36:06] ODELL:

Right. I think that's I think that's very true.  

[00:36:09] NVK:

You know? But listen, like, for example, like,   you know, like,   for for our situation, like, I don't I don't trust myself   in terms of, like, personal, like, duress. Right. Right? I don't want my wife to be in a personal duress situation. You know, we are a little more known. We're not That's why multisync comes into play. Exactly. Right? Like, you know, in our situation, it would take, like, a good year for for things to be fully recovered, and it will require, like, multiple   institutions of things. And, like, there's lots of shit going on. Right? Like I said, good luck.   Because, again, like, the we we are known people.  

Right?   Now if you have the benefit of never having worked in this industry, I mean, like, I'm very jealous of you.   But, like, you can make things a lot simpler. Right? You can live you can leave, like, a a plate in a,   in a little envelope that is,   how do you call   it? I mean, the word escaped my mind now. Tamper resistant?   No. Temper evident.  

[00:37:13] ODELL:

Temper evident. Like a a wax seal on it or something. Exactly. Right?  

[00:37:17] NVK:

And,   you know, like, you you leave it there. It could be in the home. It could be in the bank. It could be whatever. Right?   Ideally, it's two. Right? So you're using a passphrase, and they're in two separate locations.  

[00:37:30] ODELL:

I mean, you could also just give, like,   what do you think about the idea of,   like, you have   you have the seed phrase. The air has access to the seed phrase, but, like, the pass phrase is with with a lawyer or something. Now, like, that works. Right? Sure. That that could work. I mean, you have to trust lawyers. I rather trust But you're not really trusting them. Right? Because then they only have the pass phrase.  

[00:37:52] NVK:

Yeah. And they can't do anything with just the passphrase. Yeah. I just I don't like strangers   to be part of anything.   Well, you could replace lawyer with anybody. Yeah. Exactly. It could be friend. It could be whoever. And and you know what? Like, it does work. I mean, it it's not, like, you know, that complicated.   You can even have two people just in case. You can have two copies of the passphrase. You know? Like, one of the grandparents,   one of the with the lawyer or whatever. And, you know, who knows? Maybe one of them loses the passphrase in a fire or   for home invasion or something, and it's still all set up. You're good.  

You can also do multisig, right, where the third key   is somewhere that both share.   That also   totally doable. So it's already pre set up. Right? Say say, for example, we have a living trust. Right?   So   the essentially, all that's gonna change is whoever's controlling that specific key   out of the, say, five keys.   Right?   So you can make it very easy to pass on. Like, you can even leave it on you can even pass on a code card, you you know, like, with the seed in it,   where the family maybe has an idea of, like, where the backup is. You give someone else the PIN?   Yeah. They don't have to. You know, you can very easily even better. Right? Because Yep.  



[00:39:07] ODELL:

I mean, you have the negative that the cold card could  

[00:39:10] NVK:

you could die, and the cold card could die at the same time. But you can have a backup somewhere that's very hard to get to, very hard   to, to like, say, for example, the backup   would take a year to get it. Right?   Because it's, you know, it's some safe deposit box in Switzerland or something.   And, you know, they have a time lockout for that. They also have all kinds of ways, so it's gonna take forever. But you can pass on the cold card right away. So the family eventually gets the backup.   So they can choose to move the funds to a new set, or they can continue using the old setup.  

[00:39:43] ODELL:

What,   I mean, I think that's a good point to let's talk a little bit about,   and it's been a while since you've been on. Like you said, there's a lot of new users. I think there's a lot of new listeners to the show.   The physical security with the cold card. So, like, a malicious actor   gets   my cold card. Let's say I'm crossing a border and I have a cold card with me,   and border patrol gets the cold card.   They don't have the PIN.   What stops them from spending the money? Like, how do you think about that?  

[00:40:18] NVK:

Well, I I mean, like, the the reality is, like, nothing is infallible. Right? Like, I I believe we have, you know, probably the securest device on the market, but that doesn't mean that somebody can eventually get to it.   You know,   thus far,   no security researcher has demonstrated   how to get the seeds out of a mark four or a cube.   But that doesn't again, it doesn't mean that somebody   couldn't eventually.   The realities of these things is that, you know, it's gonna need billion dollar lab,   and the chances is they destroy the sample trying to get it out. Right?   Even if they have some attack. Again But why?  



[00:40:59] ODELL:

What do you mean? Oh, because there is only one sample, right, for you to try your No. No. I'm saying I I want you to talk about, like, why are there two secure elements on it? Like, what setup what is the setup that you've gone with that you think makes it the most secure from a physical attack point of view?  

[00:41:14] NVK:

So we designed this after, like, you know,   many years of of trial and error and a lot of,   attacks from, say, Don John, and they showed us some of the things that they tried. Smudgers attack lab. Yes. So they spent millions of dollars probably on cold card thus far.  

[00:41:31] ODELL:

And they broke the last one. They broke the three. Yes. Yes. They did.  

[00:41:36] NVK:

Well,   yes. They did. But, you know,   they being able to to repeat that is not that simple either. But, yes, they did. But in their in their  

[00:41:47] ODELL:

in their they released a report where they were able to extract a seed from an m k three. Right? That's correct.   So because that's what we're talking about here. Right? Like, people I think people should think about it like   think of think of a cold card as, like, a safe around your seed. Right? Your seed is your secret back upwards. That's what hold that's what gives you the ability to spend your money, and the cold card is effectively,   you know,   an incredibly   technological   safe that sits around it and protects people from getting access to that seed. Right? That's right.  

[00:42:17] NVK:

So we we have a nice design document,   that's, like, human   human legible. So it's not for just techy people on the blog. I can link to that later. But the the point is so what did we do? We we know   secure elements have limits. Right? We also don't trust   any vendor.   So what we did is we have essentially three parts to the security. Right? There's two secure elements, and there is a CPU.   Right? We call that an MCU because of the type of chip, but let's say it's a CPU. It's where the the the magic, like, a lot of the computation happens.   So what we do is we take a secret from one secure element, a secret from another secure element, and a secret from the MCU,   and then we combine those three   to make   the key that decrypts   the seed.  

Right? And that's protected by your pin.   So in order to break a cold card,   okay, you would have to   break the three chips   that we use   without damaging any of them in order to get to the sea.   And that has proven to be a very effective way of securing a sea.   So much so that another big hardware wallet right now just announced they're gonna have two secure elements even though they're always gonna get secure elements.   Choice is secure yeah. Poor choices and secure elements, but,   they they are trying to do something. Why were they poor choices?   So,   Tropic Square is version one, right, of Secure Elements. It's gonna get owned  

[00:43:53] ODELL:

That's their own in house Secure Element, open source, no NDA that they created. Source, but yeah. Okay. All the analogs are closed.  

[00:44:03] NVK:

The   and then Optiga,   the other secure element that they use is the same secure element on UB that's been broken already.   And the MCU is the same MCU they had before that's been broken already. So  

[00:44:17] ODELL:

it it significant improvement over Yes. Where they were before.   They're the hardware. Really nice. To be clear, I I I held the hardware in my hand. Beautiful. It's really nice hardware. It really is beautiful. In Lugano, I held the hardware. Yeah.  

[00:44:30] NVK:

They're very good at at, like, making very sort of beautiful hardware.  

[00:44:34] ODELL:

I don't know. The last   the last one was kinda, but the new one like, I have I have a last one right here,   but the oh, but you only you can see it because there's no video.   The new one has, like, a really nice big touchscreen. It's I think it's, like, all metal construction. It's, like, it's a bit it was a big improvement for them.  

[00:44:53] NVK:

Yes.   Well, they did have a a problem. Like, I mean, like, the the t, I don't think, was, flying off the shelves.   But that's that's the original one. Right? No. The the original one is still for sale on Amazon by them.  

[00:45:08] ODELL:

And the t was the last one? No. Wasn't the last one, like, the treasure safe three or something? Right. It was the  

[00:45:14] NVK:

the safe was the t with a secure element. Right?  

[00:45:18] ODELL:

No. No. I think it went t then one,  

[00:45:21] NVK:

then three out of the secure element. One is the original. It's the one the one without secure element, still the one that they sell on Amazon.  

[00:45:29] ODELL:

The very original one was the two.  

[00:45:32] NVK:

Yeah. It's hard to know.  

[00:45:35] ODELL:

If you go to trezor.com, it's like an actual safe company.   Trezor.io.   Bitcoin.   Anyway, we got we got derailed.   Yes. The the point is Let me just double check just so that we got that right.   You got the   they have the treasure three, the five, and the seven now.   Wow. I haven't kept up with their products. It's still on Amazon.  

[00:45:59] NVK:

If you go Trezor on Amazon. Products  

[00:46:02] ODELL:

they're trezor.io,   by the way. They're not trezor.com.   They have the three yeah. The model t oh, the model t was the second one. The model one was the one. There you go. Okay. It's so the Trezor  

[00:46:13] NVK:

one,  

[00:46:14] ODELL:

model one They sell for $50.   Yeah. It's 2 and a half. Is $1.29.   That device three is 79.   The five is $1.69.  

[00:46:24] NVK:

So $13, you can take the seeds out.  

[00:46:27] ODELL:

Yeah. This this then the seven is $2.49.   And I guess they added a secure element with the five, I think.   And then   and the touch screen.   And then the seven has the double secure element, including their open source secure element.   Anyway   and to back to the cold cards. So you have the two secure elements,   and you have,   the MCU,   and you need to compromise all three to pull the seed   if you don't have the PIN.   If you if you enter the wrong PIN 13 times, the whole thing breaks itself.  

[00:47:08] NVK:

Yes.  

[00:47:10] ODELL:

Is there there's no way to to   to reset that PIN timer   without breaking all three chips?  

[00:47:18] NVK:

Correct.   No. No. Sorry. Yeah. The PIN timer, there is there is no way it's protected by the same sort of security. Like, I unplugged the I unplugged the cold card. I plug it back in.  

[00:47:29] ODELL:

I only have five tries left if I've already done eight times. Yes. It's 13 Unless I compromise all three chips. Yeah. 13 times or a break. Period. So but it's not just one chip is doing that pin timer? Is there is there a way you can compromise timer. You you mean, like, the counter? 13 wrong tries.   Yeah. That's   one chip, can I get, like, infinite tries of the pen?  

[00:47:53] NVK:

Yes. But not quite.  

[00:47:56] ODELL:

Okay.   It's like elaborate, or are you being intensely KG?  

[00:48:02] NVK:

Yeah. It gets, it gets, it gets tricky there.   Got it. There are some defenses, but,   you know, you are somewhat at the mercy of the but it's still, like, you still have   there's still  

[00:48:18] ODELL:

Is that the weak point?   No. That's a I mean someone can get infinite pin tries like a No. A strong a strong malicious actor could get a The the thing is there's still a hard limit on how many,  

[00:48:32] NVK:

tries per   per second you can do kind of thing. So it's still gonna take a very long time.   Even   if you could do that. And   thus far,   in in none   of the versions of the secure element, they were able to bring the PIN counter.  

[00:48:51] ODELL:

Because that's, like, key to the physical security model. Right? Is that Yes. Even like, if you even if you have, like, a weakish PIN   Yes. Like, no one's gonna be able to guess that thing in 13 tries.  

[00:49:02] NVK:

No.   Not gonna happen.   You know, like, and and when you think about it, like, the   the   it's a big honeypot out there of devices. And remember, like, these these chips are used by major companies too. Right?   But, like, not for a cold card? Like Yeah. I mean, like, we're we're officially competing with auto manufacturers,   competing with everybody else for the same chips.   There is, like, millions and millions and millions of these chips out there.   They're they're very hardened.   But, you know, again, they'll have limits. Everything has limits.  

[00:49:41] ODELL:

Okay.   You said you wanted to talk about seeds later.   Well, I and then now it's later. What do you what are your is do you not,   so first, I'll start off with I love seeds. I think seeds are awesome.   What are your thoughts on,   like like, seeds? Like, what do you how do you think about seeds in terms of user friendliness? Because I I think   if you were pre seed in Bitcoin,   like, I was around in Bitcoin before seeds existed,   and seeds are fucking magic. Like, it's an amazing innovation. But I think there's a whole slew of Bitcoiners now, like, a new set of Bitcoiners   that think of seeds as a problem that needs to be solved, that it's a a hard it's it's hard for the average person to   wrap their head around protecting 12 or 24 words.  



[00:50:40] NVK:

Yeah. Well, so so this is the thing. Right? Like,   what are you giving up when you don't have seeds is the real question.   Right? Like, seeds are through sovereignty. Right? Like,   it is   it is vendor independent.   So if you if if there's anything you don't like about your cold card or your Trezor or your Ledger, you take your seed and you load it in a different device without their help, and you get the money out.   Just like take the c you take the cold card seed, just load it into Trezor. Boom. Done. It's just like Nostr. Right? Like, it's the same idea. You don't like this vendor. You don't like this client.   You just   take the secret out, copy paste the secret, put in some other place,   and then boom, all your stuff is there. You don't need permission.  

Right? It's it's unilateral exit.   No counterparty.  

[00:51:29] ODELL:

Yeah. That's super cool. I mean, that's, like, a number one question I hear all the time. It's like, oh, what what if cold card goes out of business? And, like, it's even bigger than that. Like, you can just take it and you can just put that seed into Sparrow.   Let's say   let's say it's like the apocalypse or something.   Mhmm. Just hypothetically   that the apocalypse happens and you can't get any hardware,   but you can still get open source software and put it on a general purpose computer.   You can just load that seed right into Sparo and all your funds will be there. Yes.  

[00:51:57] NVK:

Or code or whatever. No. I mean, like, we're just stupid shit. Like, for example, let's say this UK   ID shit for websites   catches on. Right?   Let's say now all   fucking   western countries decide that, like, in order for you to buy something on Amazon or to to download a piece of software on the web, on the clear web, right,   You you need to show some fucking ID. Like, these things are not, like, no longer,   like, theoretical. Right? I mean, we live through COVID. We know how far things can go, and they can go a lot worse. Right?   So   the infrastructure is there to control us. So   let's say you cannot like, let's say a vendor   goes   like, the Apple says, no. You cannot have your app on the store anymore. Boom. App out. Right? And then let's say you depended on their servers. Oh, no. You can't serve this this this customer's here, and, you know, VPN doesn't work because they don't wanna go to jail as a company executive.  

You know? Boom. Like, now you don't have access to the parts that are on an app or on a server.   Right? It it's a huge problem.   And then, you know, oh, but they, you know, they have, like, some app   on, you know, on the on GitHub. You know? Oh, did they have to take everything out of the country?  

[00:53:13] ODELL:

Well, let's use specific examples because I I I'm   like, I think this is where once again, I love seeds, but I think this is where we disagree on a lot of things. So let's use Phoenix Wallet as my first example.   Phoenix Wallet lets you take a seed. Right? You can   you can   write down a seed and and keep a seed back up.   They give the users that option, but they also give users the option for an iCloud backup.   Yeah. How is it? I I love the iCloud backup for onboarding people. Full life savings there?  

[00:53:46] NVK:

Well, I think for some people, yes. I I think I I don't. Really? Would you would you tell your friend to put, like let's say, like, let's say in percentages. Right? Let's say your friend, so he's 99%   balls deep into Bitcoin. Right? Yeah. And and you're gonna say to him, you know what? Just put it on just put it on Phoenix and and save it on iCloud. Are you gonna tell him to do that?  

[00:54:07] ODELL:

I think   I'm gonna Yes or no, Matt. Yes or no, Matt. No. I I so, like, I think there's there's there's a lot of I've seen so I have I have been in the room where people have put   their entire life savings on Phoenix iCloud backups.   And the argument, I think, is   that they're more likely you're you're they're so they're first of all, they're agreeing that the NSA and Apple, like, are not in their threat model. Right? Like, the US government and Apple are not in their threat model.   The biggest threat to their funds is them  

[00:54:43] NVK:

You know, if you lose your phone losing it. Wait. Wait. Do you know, right, that if you lose your phone number, okay, which can happen just by accident, you get locked out. You get locked out of Apple, iCloud forever. There's no way around it,   period. Like, there are celebrities  

[00:54:58] ODELL:

that couldn't get back to their fucking iCloud accounts. Well, I mean, I think I think what you would do like, the ideal situation  

[00:55:04] NVK:

for that because they should buy the ETF. If you no. Seriously. No. No. No. I don't think so because If you cannot,   okay, if you cannot   put your fucking life savings on a real fucking Bitcoin solution,   alright, like, you should not put your life savings into Bitcoin.  

[00:55:21] ODELL:

Like, the ETF, I think, is strictly worse than that. I mean, then you're trusting Charles Schwab, then also the US government is in your third model. You can't you can't, like, sue cryptography.  

[00:55:30] NVK:

I think If you lose your fucking city, you're gone. If you lose no. No. I think,  

[00:55:35] ODELL:

with Phoenix, like, so you could   you could do both.   Yeah. I'm not talking. Sure. If you're sure. If you lose your seed if you lose your seed, then you have the iCloud backup. Sure. And I think put your cold card back encrypted backup on iCloud.   But the problem the the problem is the what what you see happen a lot is the user is confronted with the backup process in the beginning.   Yes. They don't store their seed correctly, then it grows in value.   And then   they they lose their device or their phone or whatever, and then they don't have a good backup because it grows over time,   especially with Bitcoin. Right? Like, maybe it only becomes their life savings because of 10 x's, because of 20 x's. Like, they didn't put in their life savings into Bitcoin. It just became their life savings because of But that's why, like, people should always be learning. Right? Like, ideally,  

[00:56:28] NVK:

if you went from, like, if you went from, like, if you went from, like, zero to 100, right, like, x on your hold, like, you should have spent that time learning  

[00:56:38] ODELL:

how to Yeah. But most people, like, they most people don't practice personal responsibility. They're gonna be playing that. I talk about this as, like, a high level theoretical all the time, which is I think if people care about Bitcoin as freedom money, it's important to set our expectations properly. It's not gonna it it is very unlikely   there's gonna be more than 5% of the population are using Bitcoin as freedom money. And and and percent of the population are using,  

[00:57:03] NVK:

like, you know, like, a a Pubco custodial solution or on Coinbase or whatever. What's  

[00:57:09] ODELL:

But I'm saying, like, if we could get a higher if we could get a higher percentage of them when they load up the wallet to do the iCloud backup,   And then, hopefully, they take a seed backup later. But if they don't,  

[00:57:20] NVK:

then at least they're protected on the iCloud side. Like, at least they have that iCloud backup. Like, that's a huge win on the Phoenix website. But this is what I hate the part of this conversation or this narrative is that, like, you can start to something stupid simple, but, like, you shouldn't stop learning.  

[00:57:37] ODELL:

Okay. So let's   I look. I a 100% agree with you shouldn't stop learning. That's the whole ethos of everything I've built in the space, including still dispatch.   But dispatch has, like, 1% of the viewers of, like Oh, I know. That's why I love coming here. Of the podcasts that are like, stop learning.   You're you know, you don't take any personal responsibility. Like, that's what people want.   And I think there's place in the market   for different options, and I I don't think it's either I don't think it's either you trust BlackRock and Charles Schwab wholeheartedly   or you take full sovereignty over your life. So I think there's a middle ground. Okay. Let's just put it to it this way.  



[00:58:17] NVK:

If if you're gonna put your whole life savings on Phoenix   and you're not gonna,   like, learn how to   take access to your seed and back it up, okay, you should stay with ETFs. You should not stay with that. You shouldn't stay on I disagree with that. ICloud only forever.  

[00:58:37] ODELL:

I disagree with that. I would I would rather have $50,000  

[00:58:41] NVK:

on Phoenix iCloud backup than in Is that your life savings, I bet? Is that your life savings, Matt? It's a little bit above my life savings. It's it's a dream number that hopefully I'll hit one day. No. But what I'm trying to say is, like, the this is the thing. Right? Like, it's, like, you know, if you were a wealthy person, okay, that has your life savings in, like, you know, a proper   setup and you wanna keep $10,000,000   on Phoenix because $10,000,000   is you're spending money for your weekend in Ibiza.   You know?  

Fine. I mean, like, it's no issues with that. You're gonna spend that money that weekend anyways. It's not a, like, it's not a how much. It's like what percentage that is from your your your, you know, wealth.  

[00:59:21] ODELL:

Okay. So   we use Phoenix as an example first. It's perfect.   I wanna do another I wanna do another   real example, which you've been very outspoken   about, which is Bitkey.   And I think Bitkey   is a is a different setup than Phoenix. Right? So Phoenix is   you got the whole LSP relationship going on. Funds are held on lightning at rest.   It's single sig. Well, it's I guess it's technically   two of two multisig.   But you would with Bitkey with Bitkey, it's this idea of this it's by Square, it's by Block. It's this collaborative custody model, two of three multisig.   No seed phrases.  

Why do you hate Viki so much?  

[01:00:11] NVK:

Okay. So I love Viki. I mean, I loved the in the past, Viki.   I got rugged on implementation.   So, like, by the way, I'm one of the first cheerleaders for Bitkey since the beginning of Bitkey. Just generic people. I remain a cheerleader for Bitkey Yeah. In Virginia. So here's the problem that I have.   Okay.   Pubco,   right, like, public company. Okay? Yes. It is extra compliant.   Right? Like, it it that this is the reason why Twitter, you know, removed everything everybody during,  

[01:00:44] ODELL:

COVID. The the real life example is you can't buy Bitkey in New York.   Right. Exactly. Right? So because of the bit license.  

[01:00:51] NVK:

So when you create a preparatory   setup,   okay, that depends on their servers,   their app being live,   their hardware that is not really open. You can't put a firmware on it. Okay?   And it has a auto updates. Okay. EU, we're essentially creating a hot wallet.   Okay. EU, we're in practice, a hot wallet. Right? Because they control the full stack remotely.  

[01:01:16] ODELL:

But I think I think the mistake here is to compare it to something like cold card. It shouldn't be compared to something like cold card. It shouldn't be compared to something like cold card. Thing. Right? Like, cold card. It's trying to accomplish it's trying to accomplish different things. No. No. One second. But but hang on. This is important. This is important. Okay? So if you're gonna create that setup, that's fine. Okay? That's completely fine, and I was, like, super for it. As long as the marketing is honest.  

[01:01:38] NVK:

Right? Like, you go and you say, hey. Listen. This is your stepping stone.   Okay. This is how you start safely with Bitcoin.   Okay. You should   move your funds   out of here when this becomes your life savings into other solutions.   Okay. You should learn.   And   you know what? Seeds are great.   Okay. Now when you come out   of the fucking womb, okay, saying that, like, the thing that is truly safe for people and is truly   sovereign   is shit. Like, literally   fudding seeds.   And you don't even create   a out of pubco solution   to break the glass because they couldn't break the glass to joke. They didn't create the sparrow thing that they promised.   Okay? Well, it's still early. They might. No. But but see, but this is the thing. Right? Like, it would it's like trust me, bro. Like, you know, it's just classic fucking, like, this is classic fucking pub co trust me, bro shit. Okay? Like, it pisses me off because, like,   you don't get spite of everybody.  



[01:02:40] ODELL:

That's unfair. That's unfair.   I think,   lot out of any public company, they've pushed the limit the most.   I don't think this is, like, classic trust me, bro stuff, like, compared to something like what Apple puts out, for instance, if you wanna use Apple as an example.   You can so what I was saying earlier is, like trust me, bro. They never made a claim otherwise. No. No. But so what I was what I   what I was saying   is I don't think people should be like, I   I like Bitkey for new users that are not technical,   that get overwhelmed very easily, that their alternative is probably gonna choose some kind of custodial solution.  

I don't think it's competing with the cold card. I don't think it's truly cold storage.   I don't think Bitkey is cold storage. I think it's some kind of, like, warm, collaborative custody. When people say that, like, we're doing this out of venture competitiveness. It's not No. No. But Because you know what? I send people to the user. That. I'm not accusing you of I mean, what what the reason you're doing it is because you have very strong opinions and you have a lot of time on your hands, and so you're always constantly letting everybody know your opinions.   Not and and that's why we're friends. Like, I I love that about you, but also, like,   that's where we butt heads the most is is I also have very strong opinions,   and they're they're not always aligned with yours,   which is fine. You can have different opinions with people and still be friends with them.  

It's like something that society has completely lost. But my point is is the cold card is protecting you from   external actors. Right? Cold cards are trying to And us. Good point, guys. Cold cards are trying you're trying to hold Bitcoin without any trust involved.   You're taking full sovereign radical personal responsibility. You're trying to protect yourself from government. You're trying to protect yourself from corporations.   All the all the different malicious actors, everything. Yes.   The main purpose of the Bitkey   is to protect people from themselves.  

That is what the purpose of the Bitkey is. That's that's cool. And they do a really good job with it. Like, it is really hard it is really hard to fuck it up. They're buying a Bitcoin customers. Do you agree with me that with with   something like a cold card, there are there are many ways that people can fuck up their own savings? They can that that we've seen Absolutely. The majority of time people lose Bitcoin is not is not robbery, is not theft. We don't have numbers on that. There's a lot of, like, fud on that. The majority of time people lose Bitcoin is because they fucked something up, is is is user error. Efficacy to that. Yeah. Absolutely.   And big key like, you have to be really   you have to work really hard to lose your Bitcoin if you use Bitcoin. Well, but specifically on the inheritance side specifically on the inheritance side, they make the inheritance side really, really easy in a relatively cheap package,   very user friendly.  

Like, I've I've I'm glad that they're trying something new. We've never seen anything like that before on self custody side. Have you heard of anybody who lost ETF Bitcoin?  

[01:05:38] NVK:

I mean, you don't own Bitcoin if you don't need to. No. No. But, like You own an I. But it's like, no. But but, like, you're close. You're close to that in a setup where you don't have   a unilateral access. That's the only thing I ask. It's like, just make sure the users, like, hide it somewhere, make it so you have to fucking call somebody or whatever.  

[01:05:56] ODELL:

Look. When we first got into this fight access.   Look. I when we privately,   for better or for worse, we talk on almost a daily basis. Yes. People don't know that part.   And I   for better or for worse.   And,   I've actually tested the brake glass mode. Like, it's pretty straightforward. You you you take an APK.   You take an APK, and you just you literally just scan a QR code. You scan a QR code, tap your device, and you're you're out. You're out of out of testing their servers without trusting their apps. America. Hang on a second. Outside of North America,   people might not be able to get an Android phone. Okay? No. Outside of North America, everyone has Android phones. That's all they have. No. No. No. They might not be able to get an Android phone so they can run the APK.  

Why wouldn't they be able you can just run an APK on any Android phone. Minimum version is not. It's not that simple. Okay?  

[01:06:47] NVK:

Second thing is,   like, they can push an update where that APK breaks to the hardware device. And let's assume you have the hardware. If you lose the hardware   Yeah. That's the worst part. Is losing the hardware. If you lose the hardware, okay, which is the majority of the people who fuck up shit are gonna probably do that part first. They're gonna just, you know, drop it in the pool or fucking, like, lose it on moving   houses.  

[01:07:10] ODELL:

Okay? They will now depend on block for recovery. There is no auto wait. No. What they do is they what they do is they send you a new piece of hardware,   and then you reinitialize   it with, collaborative testing using the app. Right?  

[01:07:23] NVK:

The the the problem is, like, that's all Yeah. But in that situation in that situation  

[01:07:27] ODELL:

but you realize that   that theoretical that theoretical is   both block doesn't want you to spend your money and you lose your device at the same time,   which I think is an edge case for the overwhelming majority of people in their threat model. For today, yes. I mean, you know, like, again,  

[01:07:45] NVK:

like,   we've been through a world events recently   where, you know, like, everything you thought wouldn't happen, happened.   Okay. I mean, that's true. With COVID. Like like, seriously. The response to COVID, specifically. It's absolutely insane. Like, you would think that you're not allowed to leave your country. Oh, you're not allowed to leave your country. Oh, now you're not allowed to leave your country and also block is not allowed to here.   If not even the ATF  

[01:08:11] ODELL:

suck in that situation.   Sure. But at least you have, like, the law and some other way of getting it. You have the law in this situation too. Like, I don't I think you do. Argument this argument that you should just hold the ETF instead, I, like, I wholeheartedly disagree. That's what I think. We don't have so by the way, on the devices thing,   I love their I think their team is fucking great. I think that I love everybody there. They're shipping real real quick. But, like, I was talking to Thomas and Max, and, like, one thing I think that would just solve this   well, would would help mitigate that specific concern of losing the hardware is a very easy solution for them, which is I should be able to, like, initialize multiple hardware   on on one on one wallet. So I have a backup of that hardware. If I lose that hardware, if something happens, it falls in the toilet or something,   I'm able to just use my backup version of that hardware instead of getting in another machine. Easy it is? I think that's relatively simple. Do you know how easy it is to kill an electric electronic device?  



[01:09:09] NVK:

Dude, like, your kid runs that shit to close the microwave. Well, that's what I'm saying. You should be able to pair multiple what? You're no. You can't depend on fucking digital devices.  

[01:09:18] ODELL:

You can't the cold card. First of all, do we agree that that would do we agree that that would be an improvement?  

[01:09:24] NVK:

Yes.   Nice. Okay.   But that is not, like, again, if you're using this as a stepping stone, okay, it's fine.  

[01:09:34] Unknown:

Okay? This is a great conversation.  

[01:09:35] NVK:

You don't fucking come out of the closet and say that seeds are shit. When 99%  

[01:09:42] ODELL:

of the market for marketing. The seedless is safe for marketing. And then they  

[01:09:46] NVK:

double down on that, dude. Like, what the fuck? You know, you sound like bad actors.  

[01:09:50] ODELL:

Yeah. But they're not bad actors. But anyway, I I I see where you're coming from with that. Now so first of all, that. And then second of all,  

[01:09:59] NVK:

my other big complaint is that there's no screen on it to verify things. I would not be surprised if they were using it. Right? Bitkey, they probably work on it. They probably work on it. A screen. And But do you know why? You can Right? Because Bitkey, the original idea and concept that I was sold to, I still have, like, a very old   prototype of this thing,   was that it was going to be a spending wallet for people to learn. And it makes complete sense   that the the little rock that you hold it as backup   doesn't have a screen because it was not designed to be   a, like, your wealth holding system. You should not have your whole wealth depending on a Pubco.  



[01:10:37] ODELL:

Would you agree with that? You're not you're not depending on the Pubco.  

[01:10:40] NVK:

Well, you are.   They they control the whole stack.  

[01:10:44] ODELL:

No. No. You're you're you're depending on them not being actively malicious.   That could be. Dude, like, it happens tomorrow. They could go out of business. If they went if if they went out of business tomorrow No. No. No. Not really out of business. They might just, like, cancel the project, or they might be forced to cancel the project. But if they cancel the project, you'd be good tomorrow.  

[01:11:06] NVK:

Maybe. Maybe you didn't look at it. No. Wait. Wait. Wait a second. Okay. You you forget   that, you know, you had, you know, like, 5 Bitcoin in it. Right? Yeah. That happened to a lot of people back back in the day.   And then, you know, five years pass, ten years pass. Yeah. That's true. You're fucked. It's gone.   Well, you have to hope that someone still has the APK. No. It's gone. It's gone. Like, no. Because you're not gonna be able to run that shit on any modern new hardware.   It's gone.   See, like, this is what I'm saying. It it is reckless. No. Good. Well, I have a copy of the APK. Yeah. Okay. Listen. It doesn't matter if the APK is not gonna run on the APK. It's not gonna run on new devices. I have an old Android phone. I'll keep I'll keep an old Android phone just in case the people I onboard are big. Gonna blow up. Anyways, the point is this. Okay? I just It's like I am super bullish on that project   if they had honest marketing on them where they're saying, hey. Listen. You know, this thing is an amazing stepping stone. Okay? There is a lot of counterparty risk,   but you know what? You're not gonna screw yourself. Fantastic. That was what I was sold on.  



[01:12:13] ODELL:

Okay. After that It's really hard to screw yourself. Yes. It is. It is. It is. It is. It is. It is.  

[01:12:19] NVK:

It   is very good. Like, really, really, really good.  

[01:12:23] ODELL:

So, like, let me do so so   let me do a, an example here about two users. And user one is using a ledger, not a cold card, because ledger sells way more devices than cold card, like, the number one device by far.   User two uses a bit key.   User one is using his ledger sets up his ledger.   First thing he does when he sets up his ledger is he writes down his seed phrase. Has basically no funds on the device yet. Right? Just getting started.   Now ledger does not let you view your seed phrase after the fact. It's impossible to view your seed phrase after you said that. They removed that? No. It is impossible. You cannot view it. So they've written down their seed words on a piece of paper.   They have horrible handwriting. They kind of rush through it because they have no money in it yet. Then they use it for the next five years.  

And then   they, you know, they thought they can memorize a pin. They they put it in the wrong the first time. They have two more tries. They put it wrong a second time because they're like, oh, I just typed it wrong. They have one more try. If they if they miss that third try, they've lost their money. Their seed was written down incorrectly,   and they've just completely lost their life savings five years, six years, seven years later. Compare that to the BitKey, they would have been way better off on the Bitkey. Okay. But here's what happens. Objectively better off on the Bitkey. Okay. I get this DM weekly. Okay. Weekly.  

[01:13:43] NVK:

Somebody comes to me and say, hey. I used to have a ledger.   Okay. I don't even know where it is.  

[01:13:50] ODELL:

Yeah.  

[01:13:51] NVK:

I have I found the seed on my safe deposit box. I found the seed on my safe. I found the seed on my drawer.   Can you help me recover?   It literally takes two minutes. They walk two fucking If they wrote it down correctly. Pass by. Yeah. But that's like, I have never had one that has it. And I've had multiple that haven't. Well, I mean, you know, we clearly have different kinds of friends. But,   and and this happens all the time. They fucking, like, I tell them, just go walk over to   Best Buy, get the the the the ideally, like, another version of the device just in case because of, like, derivations or whatever fuck they had that back then.   They load the seed in a new hardware wallet,   and boom, they have their Bitcoin and off and their shitcoins too.  



[01:14:37] ODELL:

Yeah. By the way, the the real I think Ledger handles that horribly, and that's why I'm using them as the example.   But, like,   well, just I've because I've been in this process too. They have the ledger.   It's working. They remember their PIN. They've written down the seed, but they wrote down the seed, like, seven years ago. They don't know if they wrote it down correctly.   The only way they can be sure they wrote it down correctly is to go and buy another ledger   and put the seed into the new ledger. Put Matt, like, honestly check. That's the only way they can double check. That's the only way they can double check. This is a problem of mostly, like, people who've been in the space for too long.  

[01:15:14] NVK:

They have often upgraded.   Realistically speaking,   most people that have Bitcoin in hardware wallets in the last, say, five, seven years, they're no longer in that boat. They have much better setups.   No. I don't think that's true. But That's okay. We we don't have to be, but we're just talking about different case scenarios. Like, the issue that I have is this, like, why can't we have,   you know, slightly more honest marketing   and slightly and and, like, not FUD   the setup that most people use.   That's all. I mean, like, there's, like, you can go to cold card website. There is literally no claim there that we can't back.   That is not, like, realistically,   like, honest with most use cases   and most users.  

Like, you know, the first thing you read on the big Q website is lose your seed.  

[01:16:10] ODELL:

Yeah. Look. I think that's I I think the on the marketing side, I think that's fair. I think they got a little bit ahead of themselves on that front.  

[01:16:17] NVK:

Alright. More more like doubling down on it, but yes. I  

[01:16:23] ODELL:

I still think,   I mean, I'm not gonna   but, like, on my on my website, iodel.xyz,   I have a bunch of recommendations,   and I have Bitkey and Coldcard right next to each other. Would you put your life savings  

[01:16:38] NVK:

on on Bitkey? Would you put your life savings  

[01:16:40] ODELL:

on Bitkey? Easy, and it says Coldcard best. Would you put your life savings on Bitkey?   No. Because I I'm technically competent.   So I I trust myself to But, like, if it's so good if it's so good, so No. No. But that's such a bad idea. My   my setup, like, which we're not gonna go into here, but my setup is Let's let's start with the the majority   the majority of people would lose their fucking money with my setup.   Like, empirically. Like, they just would. Like, it's just a it's a paranoid complicated   public individual setup   because I've I've dedicated my life to Bitcoin and I'm incredibly technically competent.  

And  

[01:17:23] NVK:

that's, you know, what I use But you like, if you have a if you no. But hang on a second. If you have a face such a fail safe setup,   like, there is no reason why you wouldn't use that. I would use that.  

[01:17:37] ODELL:

Well, just go back to my friend again. Like, he would lose all his money.  

[01:17:41] NVK:

There's no reason why screw your friend for a second. Seriously, because he's already using a quote card anyways. Like, you like, seriously,   like, if it is so devoid   of foot guns and is so devoid of counterparty risk, you should be using it.   Okay. Well, we can agree to this trade. If quote card goes away tomorrow, I don't know what I'm gonna use. I don't have a good answer right now.  

[01:18:05] ODELL:

I was hoping that that was going to be the device I give to my wife after.   Yeah. No. I mean, please keep   producing.   If you it Freaks, if you wanna get a bid key, it's bidkey.world.   If you wanna get a cold card can't help it. If you wanna get a cold card, it's coldcard.com.   Well, wait. You should disclose your sponsor too. They're they're not a sponsor. They dropped us. They're only a sponsor of Marty.   They're they're no longer a sponsor of RHR, but I still love the product. I think the product's great. I I think it's great. I really I really like if they can just  

[01:18:40] NVK:

create the fucking script to Sparrow.  

[01:18:43] ODELL:

Big key is the first Big key is the first device that I can give to my dad,   and he won't fuck it up. And he can he can he can use real Bitcoin I'm telling you, man. In a relatively secure way. And I I I think I've told them ad nauseam. If they just create the fucking exit script,   okay, of their system that does not depend on them, so there's truly unilateral exit, okay, and stop fucking FUDing. See How does that look to you? That's just, I would I would recommend that to, like, most people. But it's not it wouldn't be a siege with the way they have it set up. How would you have to access it? No. No. You you would have to be some setup where What would what would you recommend in that situation?  

[01:19:22] NVK:

You, you you know, you'd probably use the PDF plus, you know, there is some way to get the Plus the APK. That's what they're doing already. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Not the APK. It has to be They're doing a PDF plus an APK is the break last name. Plus Sparrow. Like, Steve literally went Okay. So you just want, like, a desktop app. You   just want a desktop   app. No. I want something that does not depend on block.  

[01:19:45] ODELL:

So you want Sparrow to integrate the break glass mode. So you have the PDF and, and you're good to go. That's it. Yes. Thank you. Okay. I think we can make that happen.  

[01:19:56] NVK:

Okay. Awesome. Again, the lover.  

[01:19:59] ODELL:

I'm glad we got that sorted. I think I hope the freaks enjoyed it.  

[01:20:04] NVK:

That was great.  

[01:20:06] ODELL:

The   so what's next for Coldcard?   Are you, would you're gonna give us new products? Like, what more. Yes.  

[01:20:15] NVK:

We're working on making the the form factor, like, better, right, for both Mark four and q that never ends.   You know, we are still a very sort of, like,   compared to, like, major consumer electronics, like, we're still very small. Right?   So there is a lot that could be done there to improve form factor.   We are working   on,   both research and implementation of codex 32 so that people can have a Shamir secret sharing type   of backup of seeds   that is not   prepared toward or uses different word lists. So, like, so it's not like slip 39. We're working on so you can have BIP 39   words being Shamir secret share sharing.  



[01:21:03] ODELL:

We are working on Why is that better than CDX store?  

[01:21:07] NVK:

Because, again, you have threshold.  

[01:21:09] ODELL:

So what you can do two of three instead of two of two? Exactly.  

[01:21:13] NVK:

There there is a very good case for that. It's just that, you know, there was no good way of doing that before. And, you know, Polster went through, like, you know, like, major research to come up with Codex 32. Like,   it it really is next level,   and is an open standard. Right? Like,   like, to us, like, we should be able to stop existing tomorrow, and it should not make any difference. Like, a single person should not have to go on Twitter and say, what the fuck do I do now that this guy's disappeared?   They should be able to recover their funds. Like, that that is a number one thing in our minds.  

We're working on more sort of, like, ways for people who are sovereign individuals to do   important things.   We're looking into how to do more and maybe create transactions inside a cold card   so that you don't need a computer.   You know, it'd be more very, very restrictive and very limited, but, you know, that could help.   We're working with a lot of other vendors to make things better   without having to be verticalized in single vendor solutions.  

[01:22:17] ODELL:

What happened with in terms of not relying on a outside device, like, you scrapped Satslink. Right?  

[01:22:24] NVK:

No. It's we dude, we've sold more Satslink than I think BitQ ever sell units.  

[01:22:30] ODELL:

But they're not shipping.  

[01:22:33] NVK:

What sorry. No. Not Satslink. Sorry. I'm talking about TapSign.  

[01:22:37] ODELL:

TapSign. No. Yeah. But Satslink is was like the q form factor with Wi Fi in it. Yeah. No. So, like, it's, it's it's What about are we ever gonna get a device like that?  

[01:22:48] NVK:

We keep on working on it as a side project, but, like, we can't still make the economic  

[01:22:54] ODELL:

viable version of that for the What about, like, instead of it being portable, if it was, like,   just always connected to an outlet? Like, can I can you, like, make, like, a base station?   Like, a multi state coordinator base station that's, like end up just making a computer with Spero on it. Can you make a computer?  

[01:23:14] NVK:

But but, yes, I would love to. But, like, no, we're not gonna make a What about a car?   Yeah. I would love to make a sick actually, I really wanted to make a secure keyboard.  

[01:23:25] ODELL:

But Do you make a Land Cruiser competitor with just no no insecure computers in it? Like a bare minimum? It's it's called a Land Cruiser pre eighties.  

[01:23:37] NVK:

The favorite car by the terrorists too.   I mean, your car is gonna get recalled by Pubco very soon. You know? Like, most cars now,   they   can remote  

[01:23:49] ODELL:

stop it. Yeah. They can just turn off the car.  

[01:23:52] NVK:

Yes.  

[01:23:55] ODELL:

No. But, I mean, I was half I was half joking. But, like, I do think,   like, do you don't think that is a potential future for CoinKite that you have some kind of Internet connected device?  

[01:24:09] NVK:

We we we are sort of exploring, like,   essentially, like, a a box,   a cheap, affordable box for people to be able to store secrets remotely. So when they cross borders and things,   they can recover the information   remotely.   But but we don't want we are not gonna Well, like a note. You're, like, thinking of it, like, an almost like a note. Like, I have it plugged in at home. I cross the border, and then I ping back to it or something. Yeah. Now imagine if this this little device has, another copy in your parents' house, and they can store each other's data without seeing each other's data, for example. Yeah.   And it should be very affordable.  



[01:24:46] ODELL:

Okay. I'm just gonna throw this out there. Sure. You know, but hopefully, you make it. But, like,   I don't have you tried the new version of white noise?   Not yet. So the new version is actually stable. So we we launched it on still dispatch, and the first version was very unstable. And people that have listened, maybe you tried the first version. Consider trying the new updated version. It's still early,   but it's it's working.   It's working. Like, I'm able to send messages and stuff.   The cold card queue form factor, and I just   let me do white noise without, like, a phone or anything.  



[01:25:22] NVK:

Why why would I need that? Secure chat. Is gonna use it. There's gonna be, like, three people   gonna buy it. Would you remember, like, back in the day, we used to have, like, the text messengers? I'd love that. Like, oh You you probably do that. Somebody yeah. No. It's it's it's you it's not, like, it's not gonna happen. There is no market for that. I would buy it.   Yeah. No. And then and then, you're gonna get another pub called the launch as a device.  

[01:25:45] ODELL:

You don't think companies it could be interoperable.  

[01:25:48] NVK:

No. So we used to have that. It's called Blackberry. Blackberry was a secure device,   and then and then the FUDs,   you know, they killed the company.  

[01:26:00] ODELL:

Yeah. That's what I want.  

[01:26:02] NVK:

Yeah. No. Not gonna happen. I'm not making that.   But, but somebody should definitely make a wallet that works over a chat   so that you can just talk to a chat because then you can bypass you can bypass no. No. Even single seg. They you know, like, the the cold card can just give it,   some addresses and then the the or an ex pub and then the the chat can go check the chain and create a PSPT. That'd be amazing. You could make it like What do you mean, like, AI chat plus cold card?  

[01:26:33] ODELL:

Kind of. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Like, I The AI chat would be on a phone or computer. Right? The cold card's just signing. You'll be you'll be like, say,  

[01:26:42] NVK:

we were actually working on this, making a a a wallet that he can   essentially, do wallet stuff   using simple x as a chat.   And then, essentially, you give it an x pub. The the the bot the chatbot essentially go checks the chain for you and then creates a PSPT. Instead of Sparrow checking or code or whatever.   Yeah. Because the cool thing about that is, one, you can use SPV,   and two is you can,   you can bypass   any Internet restriction. Right? Because   you can use Tor in the background. You don't know when you're using Tor. All kinds of amazing things. But and you don't have to create an app.   But you also don't have to use the PWA, which is literally the worst thing on Earth in terms of experience.  

Like, I hate PWAs. You don't like PWAs?   It's horrible.   I like PWAs. The fact that a PWA is working on your computer or your phone means your phone is not secured.   If if you turn on phone security,   the PWAs stop working because PWAs are essentially remote code execution.  

[01:27:45] ODELL:

I mean, browsers are effectively remote code execution. Right? Yes. But you can like a package.  

[01:27:50] NVK:

But you can cock it. Right? Like, you essentially say, please don't run   FWA on it. Okay.   Yes.   Anyways,  

[01:28:03] ODELL:

I think So you're just gonna keep coming up with more secure gold cards. That's the plan, basically?  

[01:28:07] NVK:

More usable,   more featureful.  

[01:28:09] ODELL:

Yes. Until What about a touch screen?  

[01:28:14] NVK:

We looked into it. The problem is, like, there there is no secure   touch screen that we're comfortable with. Like, there is no for you to have touch on a screen, there is a massive amount of,   touch logic that lives in a normally an FPGA or or kinda like a specific chip that's a black box in the display itself. Right? So there really is no secure touch.   Even Ledger,   were not able to do that. They still do their touch functionality   in,   like, outside of their secure element.  

[01:28:46] ODELL:

Which is how do they handle the security with their new touchscreen devices?  

[01:28:49] NVK:

I mean, the touch on the security is not that secure.   Because the the problem with touch is that, like, I mean, if you can remote view the screen, which is not too hard nowadays,   You know, you can you can figure out the PIN. You can figure out all kinds of shit. You can also Wouldn't you have to compromise you'd have to, like, physically have access to the screen while they're pressing the PIN in. No? No. You can you can have malicious firmware on the screen.  

[01:29:15] ODELL:

Oh, I see what you're saying. So you do any of this as update, and it just updates the screen and pulls your PIN out. And remember, all these modules for for touch screens are made in China. Right? So they come with a chip on it.  

[01:29:30] NVK:

It's pretty tricky. Fair enough. I mean, like, the the point is, like, we are at a point now that's, like, it is fucking easy and fucking great to use Bitcoin, like, if you're using a cold card with, like, Cove. Like, you know,   it really is stupid.   Everything else now, it's sort of like, okay, how can we create more sort of solutions for edge cases in people's lives. Right?   We spend a lot of time trying to to sort of like make   ways for people to more easily   back up seeds, but you always end up with the same sort of problem. Right? Which is, like, you still have to keep it secret,   secure.  

So might as well just keep it simple then and keep that seed secure.  

[01:30:15] ODELL:

By the way, Frank, so we're talking about code a lot.   It's,   dude, I can hear you typing.  

[01:30:22] NVK:

Myself out of the computer. I have to type my password.  

[01:30:24] ODELL:

I mute   I muted you, and then you spoke, and then I unmuted you, and then you continued to type. Yeah. I'm trying to unmute.   I don't have a producer, so I'm   the freaks are just gonna have to listen to typing. There you go.   I,   we talked about Cove Bitcoin,   the Cove wallet a lot. It's an open source wallet. It's iOS only right now.   It will be Android soon. I think it's single sig only. It will be multisig soon,   but it's covebitcoinwallet.com.   Yes.  

[01:30:56] NVK:

By the way, I I'm one of those people in the in the DMs with Jeff a lot, the white noise guy,   developing MLS,   which is a protocol for for white noise.   I think I think this is gonna be, like, a game changer, once it starts getting more featureful. Really excited about white noise. And what I really want is, essentially, like, you know, Jeff is gonna build an amazing protocol, but I really need Milian to build the UI for the app.   So Yeah. I'm really looking forward to using MLS on on primal.  

[01:31:26] ODELL:

Yeah. We'll integrate   white noise into primal, once it's stable.   By the way, that's whitenoise.   Chat.   If you wanna test it out, that's multi platform. That's on Android and iPhone, and you can just if you wanna test it, just feel free to send me a message.   Super easy. Just search Odell and send me a message.   Make sure it's [email protected].   That's the correct Odell. There's a lot of imposters.   But I think it should just pull up the correct send all my Bitcoin to the wrong Odell.   Don't I will not send you 2 Bitcoin back.   The only person making that claim is Sailor.  

Do not do not send me any Bitcoin unless you're supporting the show through Facebook Podcast   or your favorite Napster app. All links are at thedispatch.com.  

[01:32:15] NVK:

Wait. No. Is it the version I have here is old. It's not it's not working. Yeah. The new version is good.  

[01:32:23] ODELL:

Anything else you wanna talk about before we wrap?  

[01:32:26] NVK:

No. I mean, it's all it's all you, man.   You're you're the boss of the Citadel dispatch.   Yeah. People should be using Nostr. I don't see enough Citadel dispatch people in Nostr.  

[01:32:39] ODELL:

What do you, how do you what are your thoughts on Nostr right now?   Are you optimistic?   Or are you  

[01:32:45] NVK:

I think the problem with Nostr right now is that, like, trying to get Bitcoiners that hate Nostr to come to   to Nasr is sort of like stupid.   I I wanna see like   but you know how it is. I mean, people don't care about privacy or sovereignty until, like, they get kicked in the nuts. Right? And and Twitter is fun again. Like, Axe is actually fun. Like, I mean, everybody's there, you know, especially the ten thirty one accounts there.   And, you know, we're all having, like, a ball of a time there. And and it's hard to, like, break that cycle. Right? So   I I think, like, Noster needs to do the things that he can't do on Twitter. Right? Like, aside from the privacy because nobody gives a shit about privacy.  

It's like I wanna, you know, I wanna be able to replace my,   my newsletter,   you know,   with, like, something that does newsletter as well and does email as well, like or whatever it is. Like I think white noise could be a piece of that. Yes. Because, like, being able to zap and use Bitcoin natively because signal refuses to Like, an alternative to signal and Telegram and   It's brutal. I mean, you know, there is no app right now. If they nail group chats, well,  

[01:33:57] ODELL:

you know, it could be.  

[01:33:59] NVK:

There is no   there is no,   instant messaging app right now that has Bitcoin native,  

[01:34:06] ODELL:

which is it's it's not a private a phone number except for maybe simple x. I mean, the Yes. That has its own issues. Yeah. No. The the the phone number thing, man, is just so egregious.  

[01:34:18] NVK:

And and Yeah. Reality is, like, 90% of the world uses WhatsApp.   And WhatsApp is, like, doesn't even hide your phone number.  

[01:34:26] ODELL:

Yeah. So we can get even a piece of that into white noise, then that's pretty big momentum for Nestor. I I love that. The same social graph, which is cool. That's right. It's not like a separate social graph.  

[01:34:36] NVK:

Very much.  

[01:34:38] ODELL:

I I think that's, that's I mean, the other piece is though, the part that me and you disagree on a lot,   and I feel fine disclosing that because if I just bring it up, I know you'll just publicly disagree with me,   is particularly with all this software discussion   on x right now. It's like everyone's blocking everybody.   So if you wanna actually have an open discussion about these things, really, like, Nostra is the only place you can do that. Otherwise, everyone just blocks each other into their echo chambers So I think which I think is an advantage we have.  

[01:35:11] NVK:

So I think that's the part that, like,   one reason why people don't wanna be on nostril is that people want to have a sane, reasonable feat. They don't like, if I don't wanna talk to somebody, I don't wanna talk to somebody. It's like blocking an Oster doesn't really work. And he's a big he's a big safe space guy when it comes to Oh, absolutely. To Kyle. I don't I don't wanna see call me shit on my feed. So but you can mute it. Life is too short, man. But mute You just can't restrict replies. That's what you should be. Is it doesn't work that well because then, like, some fucking retard I don't block responds to the guy who just commented on my thing, and then I see it.  

[01:35:45] ODELL:

Well, that's just like, the apps can handle muting better for you. Nah. Just fuck it. Just block it. Like, you know, like,  

[01:35:51] NVK:

I don't have an issue. It's great.   Most people want safe spaces.   That's why, like, you know, the guys, like, the restricting   influencers being able to restrict replies is bad for society. That's why Jack and crew are building their, their safe space,   universe thing there, right, where it's like people are gonna have to people are gonna be able to have private communities because in private communities, you don't have the people you don't wanna talk to.   It's reason like, dude, for, like, millennia, humans have been building walls around   their shit.  

It's it's like it's okay.  

[01:36:26] ODELL:

I think I'm pro I'm pro physical walls. I like walls in real life.  

[01:36:31] NVK:

But why don't there walls in  

[01:36:33] ODELL:

in dialogue? I think large public figures   that are able to restrict replies is bad for society.   Like, I think people should be able to say it. I agree. I agree.  

[01:36:43] NVK:

But I don't think, like, the block is not the solver. The problem is these people shouldn't have an outsized   influence in society with laws that we shouldn't have. Well, okay. So let me use an extreme example.   Okay.  

[01:36:55] ODELL:

Should the president of The United States be able to stop who replies to the his truth social posts? You know, in Canada, it's illegal for you as a politician to block somebody on social media.   Yeah. I mean, I I don't think it should be based on a law. I think it should just be technically   impossible for them to do it. No. I mean, I  

[01:37:13] NVK:

you know,   the problem is it's like it's always gonna be possible because, like, if one app doesn't support blocking on Nasr, another app will. Right?   I mean, like, like, support me. Look at look at that Ola. Is it Is it Olas that just, like, had a bot that went around, like, removing people who had a different opinion?  

[01:37:33] ODELL:

No. It wasn't Olas.  

[01:37:34] NVK:

It was which one was? It was the one from Robin? Nas nas.social.  

[01:37:40] ODELL:

Nasdot,   yeah, nas.social,   I think. Olas was,   Pablo's  

[01:37:46] NVK:

Right. It was the picture. Instagram thing. It was great, by the way.  

[01:37:52] ODELL:

But but once again, like, nas.social   was not   was not restricting replies. They just weren't showing them. They were muting people.  

[01:38:02] NVK:

Yeah. I think I think the first making it not visible.  

[01:38:05] ODELL:

But if you use a different app, they were visible.  

[01:38:08] NVK:

I think the main thing is, like, you can't effectively block on Master unless you're using a private relay. Right?   So   I think the block   spirit of functionality is great, and I think having that kind of functionality in an open network is okay because   your message,   if it's on a public relay, it's still visible  

[01:38:28] ODELL:

to everybody else, and they can still quote dunk on you even if you block them. I you know, you you should have just a choice on x. On x, you can't quote someone. Know. But x is not an open protocol. If they if they block people. If they block I know. I know. And, like, how many influencers do you see now that just say like, they're just auto restricting replies? Like, unless I follow you or mention you, you can't even reply. So it's it's even further than blocks.  

[01:38:53] NVK:

I mean, I I don't, like, I don't have a huge issue with that. I mean, like, you see a celebrity on the street, like, I mean, you feel sorry for the person. Like, it's like every fucking person comes talk to them. It's annoying.   Right? Like, so why does their life online have to be any different?  

[01:39:07] ODELL:

I mean, they could just choose not to post.  

[01:39:12] NVK:

I mean, like I think to be fair, like okay. Think about it this   way. FiatJF's original   original intent and thought was for people to mostly be using private relays. Right? So you have public relays that do some stuff, but then people will be using private relays for a lot of their conversations.   Right? In a private relay is worse than a block. You can't even see it.   Yeah. That's what the searching for a dev is not finding  

[01:39:38] ODELL:

on But quite nice. Wait. You already follow me, so it should it should find me right away. But it's gone. Don't you follow me? Yeah. I do, but it's not showing up. Odeo. Just search or do give it a second. It's probably indexing or whatever.  

[01:39:51] NVK:

No. No. Everybody else shows, by the way, except for you.  

[01:39:55] ODELL:

Hang on. That's weird. Search [email protected].  

[01:39:58] NVK:

See, everybody's here. Search [email protected].   Oh, maybe the at does it?  

[01:40:06] ODELL:

But that's what group chats are for.   Like   Yeah. But what's cool about I think it's because you set it up earlier. You have to Yeah. It's possible. To developer settings. You have to wipe your keys and then restore new keys.  

[01:40:21] NVK:

Anyways, the the what's cool  

[01:40:23] ODELL:

about an open No. No. But do you understand, like but that's where group chats exist. Like, it came out during COVID   that or during,   like, when when everything was hyper politicized,   that there was a bunch of tech bros and, like, a 120 person group chat   where they were talking without people being able to comment on what they were talking about. And that's, like, that's completely in the right. That makes sense to me. But when you are, like, an influencer and you're trying to influence people, like, that's where the name comes from, and you're trying to dictate public policy and dictate how people live their lives, and at the same time you restrict replies,   that's fucked up for society. Like, people should be able to respond to you're choosing It's a tricky thing, though. You're choosing to get on the soapbox.  

That's, like, that's not a celebrity walking down the street. That's someone standing at the corner with on a soapbox with a with a microphone in their hand, not expecting people to reply to them. Force people to use Nostr? Are you gonna force No. I'm just saying that I think it'll be better for society when replies are not like what the president of The United States did. You know? He's gonna go and create his own social network.  

[01:41:26] NVK:

Right? That's what people do. Like, you can't prevent people But that's why but Nasr didn't exist yet at that point. I know. But people you can't prevent people  

[01:41:34] ODELL:

from creating I'm not saying prevent people. I'm saying you give them better option, and they will hopefully choose it. Sure. Sure.   I think we agree. It's just that we we disagree. I mean, no. You are super pro block guy. Like, you block punches. Yeah. I love it. People are in your ex block list right now? I have absolutely no idea. Absolutely no idea. Probably more.  

[01:41:55] NVK:

Never blocked anyone in my life. No. Like and you know what? Like, I it's like, I used to be a no block person until I I spent some time in.   Like, this is eons ago. Right? And I was like he's like, you know, like, these people don't deserve your time. I'm like, that's a very good point.   Block. Block. Block. Block. Because, like, the thing is, I have a very simple policy, okay, with block.   It's like, I it's not about people who disagree with me. It's not about people who wanna have like, you could fight with me as much as you want. Don't give a shit. It's like it's like people who   just come to call me a name and have literally nothing to offer just accept waste my time or be the reply guy with nothing to say.  

It's, like, it's spam. Like, I essentially block spam.  

[01:42:45] ODELL:

Okay. Well, look, we can   agree to disagree.  

[01:42:48] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, like, I guess it's, like, it's a degree of, like, what people consider spam, what people don't consider spam.  

[01:42:55] ODELL:

By the way,   you mentioned safe.   On the Francis rip,   one of the zaps on fountain was 2,500   sats from Tesla Liberty.   And he said my five favorite Bitcoiners aside from Satoshi,   in no particular order, are Matt Odell, Francis,   Michael Saylor,   Safe, and American Huddl,   which I just   first of all, I appreciate the support. But second of all, like, that what a wide group   of top five.  

[01:43:24] NVK:

Well, I mean, that's what smart people do. Smart people have a wide pool of opinions. Right? I mean, seriously. Yeah. They exist.  

[01:43:31] ODELL:

Those people exist. Don't block. Yeah. I know. Right?   Okay. Awesome. Well, this is a great rip. I think we went a little bit longer than we expected. I think I told you it was gonna be, like, a half an hour.   But,   do you have any I guess people don't know that we talk every day, all day on DMs. Yeah. You're one of my you're one of my closest friends,   And I I appreciate I I appreciate,   I appreciate your strong opinions even when I disagree with them, but and I really appreciate fucking cold card and everything you and Peter have built.   My family relies on it. My projects rely on it.  

World would be a way worse place without it, so thank you, sir.  

[01:44:19] NVK:

We appreciate you, Odell.   You you people like you is why we we do what we do.  

[01:44:27] ODELL:

Freaks.   As always,   best way to support the show is to share with friends and family.   Cildespatch.com.   Search cildespatch in your favorite podcast apps.   All the links are there. Second best way to support is by sending SaaS to the show, found to podcast, Primal,   any Inoster app.   It is appreciated. Give me your feedback. Let me know what you think,   what you wanna see going forward, who I should invite as guests. Don't, like, suggest someone that is, like, completely out of reach unless you can get them for me.   Hey, Matt. Don't be like, oh, president Trump, like, come on the show. Can I have Trump on the show? Yeah. I would love to. I would love to have Trump on the show. If you have an inroad,   let me know how to get it.  

But,   let's,   let's keep having fun with it, and let's,   just keep grinding. Bitcoin's a marathon, not a sprint.   MVK, you have any final thoughts before we wrap?  

[01:45:23] NVK:

No, man. I appreciate the conversation.   And, like, keep on doing what you're doing, and the, you know, Bitcoin education is a hard grind.   And ethical Bitcoin education is not something that most people do because, you know, it's not gonna   make it   rain. And, you know, we we super appreciate the fact that there's still honest educators out there like you.  

[01:45:47] ODELL:

Cheers to that.   Much love, MBK. Love you freaks. Stay on the sax hats. Peace.