Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 0.1.8

BLOCK: 679946

PRICE: 1756 sats per dollar

TOPICS: bitcoin transaction fees, taproot, discreet log contracts

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Crypto, which is kind of related to all these questions because there are people in it because their case is, you know, we're gonna see dollar debasement and all of these different things. And there, I think, increasingly, are people in it after hearing what you and Stan Druckenmiller said last fall and realizing the institutional interest is just gonna keep growing and growing, and they just figure they'll ride that wave.   Bitcoin is now up, I think, 3 so when we spoke, I wanna say it was around 14, so it's up about 4 times,   since we spoke in value.  

How much more upside is there? Even if you think there's upside, is there a lot more upside, do you think?  

[00:00:32] Unknown:

You know, I I that we had, we had   video difficulties. So I was gonna have my Bitcoin hat on when you answered that.   Uh-oh. Facebook app.   But,   yeah. So, I mean, Bitcoin there there are many, many different ways to look at Bitcoin. The simplest one is just supply and demand. You mentioned,   the mainstreaming of it and and the institutional acceptance of it.   And I think, you know, the supply is growing 2% a year, and demand is growing faster. That's all you really need to know, and that means it's going higher. So I think that,   you know, it's gonna have these kinds of volatile days. It was down 20% peak to trough over the weekend.  

But back in 2017,   which which was a bubble, I don't think I don't think this is a bubble at all in Bitcoin. I think this is now the beginning of a of a mainstream mainstreaming of it. But, even back then during the bubble, it went down 20% on 5 different occasions.   So volatility is with with Bitcoin, volatility is the price you pay for for performance. And and I think that, you know, if it if it it's I think it's like digital gold. That's the that's the first cup in it. Gold is about a $10,000,000,000,000   asset category, and and Bitcoin's $11,000,000,000,000.  

And, it's it's infinitely divisible or almost so. It's easily   $1,000,000,000,000   of   negative yielding, of bonds out there. Why would you have that? $1,000,000,000,000 of negative yielding,  

[00:01:50] Unknown:

of bonds out there. Why would you have that when you get on something that at least has a has the potential to go up? Mhmm. And do all of these arguments then extend to other cryptos? You know, a lot of people are now I look at whether it's videos on social media or you name it. I mean, there's this constant interest in chasing the next big crypto performer, and a lot of them are up even more I mean, way more in some cases than Bitcoin. Do you dabble in any of those or do you just stick with Bitcoin?  

[00:02:14] Unknown:

No. I I don't I don't, fiddle around with any of any of those others. There's a there's a lot of good theoretical work done on on, lock it in path dependence and technologies. Brian Arthur at Stanford is one of the one of the leaders in that area. He's also written another book called the Nature of Technology. But, effectively, when when you have a technology,   like Bitcoin, there's what happens is that there is a there's a explosion of new,   new technologies that come along with it. So now we have about, what, 8 or 10000 of these ICOs.   But eventually eventually, those things lock in, and there's a dominant company, which is or or a dominant entity. Mhmm. And that's why that's why the antitrust people are going after Amazon and,   Google and Facebook and and because those those companies are so dominant. And I think Bitcoin will be the dominant   technology in this,   in this emerging asset category.  



[00:03:41] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for another episode of Citadel Dispatch.   This is episode   18,   of the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.   Excited to be joined here by our good friends, Evan Kaludes and Ben Decarman, both returned guests.   I wanna do a quick shout out to our ride or die freaks joining us in the live chat. You guys make this worth it, whether you're coming in through Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.   To to those freaks joining us from the audio streams, we have our 2 podcast feeds. One's the tales from the crypt feed, and one is the dedicated serial dispatch feed.   Those,   what you heard in that intro there was, that intro clip there was CNBC host Kelly Evans talking to legendary investor Bill Miller,   who sounds pretty fucking bullish on Bitcoin,   and she sounds,   completely lost.  

And I I just have to highlight the fact that she did try and push him into the shitcoin rabbit hole, and he just kind of shoot her off,   which is a a massive evolution   from 2017   what we used to see on mainstream media.   Before we get started, I wanna just do a quick, special shout out to all the freaks who are supporting the show via streaming sats and podcasting 2 point o apps, whether that's Sphinx or Breeze.   That's fucking awesome. It's just really cool seeing the sats fly in,   and just shout out to the teams that are managing those those software stacks.   Specifically, the Sphinx tribe is really fucking cool that we we all have that that tribe that we're that that we're talking in there. So cheers to all the freaks over there, and, also, cheers to all the freaks supporting the show via lnurlandtippin.me.  

That's what it's about, guys.   I wanna keep this ad free. I wanna keep this community funded,   and that's the plan, and you guys make that possible. So cheers to you guys.   So with all that said,   Ben, Evan, you guys just came back from Austin.   Hit us with the the best FOMO. How how how the fuck was it?  

[00:05:52] Unknown:

Well, not quite. Ben is already down in Austin. Right, Ben?  

[00:05:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I live here now. So Oh, sure.  

[00:05:59] Unknown:

So yeah. So I was down there for something like 9 days. So I got in early,   got off to a hot hot start,   fired some guns with Ben and some company.   Then we had Guns and Bitcoin the next 2 days,   which was   really incredible and unique conference. I highly recommend,   you attend,   in the coming years if you get the chance.   And then just hanging around   around Austin, getting to meet a bunch of Bitcoiners I hadn't met in real life.   We had a bit devs at Unchained Capital, which was amazing.   You know, Ben, Ryan Gentry, and Justin Moon,   lead that down there. That that was a really great experience.  

And then we had,   one of our favorites, we had a beef steak   on, like, a farm. It was   quite an experience. I think it was the biggest one Josh has done maybe. Biggest one I've definitely been to. And, yeah. 200 people, I think?   Something like that.  

[00:06:59] Unknown:

We had a lot of people. Was, like, about 200 people. Like, there literally was no more room to stand in the building. And,   we we rented chairs even for the event, and still   there's no room. It was it was really amazing to see how many people showed up. And at the beginning, we did, like, you know, like, raise your hand if you've never been to a Bitcoin meetup. And, like, half the people raised their hand, which is really cool to see. Like, there's a ton of people   coming in, to the space or at least to their first meetup. And, yeah, it was a ton of fun.  

[00:07:27] Unknown:

And that bid devs was at at Unchained Capital's office in Austin. Right? Yep.  

[00:07:32] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:07:34] Unknown:

Yeah. So much fun, my guys. I, sorry I couldn't make it. It seemed it's it's it could have been one of the best conferences of the year.  

[00:07:42] Unknown:

I mean, it was it was bigger than Guns and Bitcoin, funny enough. I mean, if we had 200 people and Guns and Bitcoin was a 150,  

[00:07:49] Unknown:

somehow we beat them. So Guns and Bitcoin was in,   was in Austin right before this bid devs. Right? So did you both go to Guns and Bitcoin?  

[00:07:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. We're hanging out together down there.   Yep.   The day before, we went shooting,   the, the Friday, I believe,   was the conference day, and they sort of split that off into a guns track and a Bitcoin track. And it was all about 3 d printed guns and all the advancements there.   And then there was, a Bitcoin track where they're talking about privacy and and a bunch of,   the samurai related guys were giving talks and teaching people about the tools.   I stuck on the guns track because   it's my guns knowledge that was more lacking than my Bitcoin knowledge, but I'm looking forward to, some of the videos coming out. Hopefully, fingers crossed. I I know we want to watch diverters talk, especially.   Yeah. We had a showdown there. No blood was shed, so that was that was good.  

But, yeah, it was just amazing. My main takeaway   is that this small, little, niche thing that was, like, a hobbyist thing   is slowly transforming   into, like, the most   advanced part of, like, the gun industry. Like, all the r and d is, like, happening with these people We're just interested in, like,   you know, enabling   people to have,   have more liberty and be able able to construct these things   in in bones. It it's amazing.  

[00:09:20] Unknown:

It was really cool to see how, like I didn't know how deep it was that, it's gotten where, like, now there's, like, 22 year old kids building, like, belt fed 3 d printed magazines and, like or just, like, oh, this guy built a shotgun out of parts he got at Lowe's,   and it, like, fires accurately. Like like, some of that stuff was insane, and, I'm really I'm really glad I went because, like, you know, I had followed, like, 3 d printed gun stuff on Twitter before, but   I, like, got, like, a, you know, a full baptism in 3 d printed gun this or that weekend and, learned so much more.  

[00:09:52] Unknown:

Yeah. It's crazy. Like, just the amount of,   time and detail and,   engineering that they spend just to keep them safe.   Like, the default mode that they want for all these weapons   is to fail in, like, a graceful   manner, like, away from the user so no one gets hurt.   You know, like, the first three d printed gun, the liberator that Cody Wilson put together, like, that thing was a piece of shit. Oh, there   I really like But it was it was just a piece of shit. They're like it was a one shot. Right? And it the upper was prone to explode   all the time.  

So, yeah, it's really nice to see the innovations being made from people doing, like, pipe,   shotguns   to   plastic lower,   AK 40 Sevens. Like, it it's really crazy now. It's out of control.  

[00:10:44] Unknown:

I mean, a part of that was if I recall correctly with the Liberator was the idea was, like,   you're you're only supposed to get, like, 2 shots out of it. Right? You're, like, supposed to shoot someone with a gun and then take their gun.  

[00:10:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's,   it was really just a proof of concept to show that this all could be done.   I mean, I might I  

[00:11:03] Unknown:

might be completely butchering it, but if I recall correctly, it was   named after a, like, cheap ass gun that we dropped in World War 2 from, like, parachutes to resistance fighters so that they would have   some, like, basic weapon to to to shoot the Nazis with and then take their guns. And that's, like, what he named it after.   But, yeah, that was, like, the original FUD against, 3 d printed guns. Right? Was that they were gonna blow up, so it makes sense, I guess, that, the industry is pushing to,   not have that happen.  

[00:11:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I shot probably 20 rounds, see 3 d printed guns on the 2nd day. And, yeah. I mean, I still have my hands. And,   like, surprisingly, like, they're still very accurate and,   you know, all this stuff is, like, getting worked out, the kinks and stuff. And I'm sure, like, 10 years from now, there'll be, like, almost no difference. Or if not, they're better than a real, you know, manufactured gun today.  

[00:12:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.  

[00:12:08] Unknown:

I mean, that's gonna be,   like, there's a major shift happening. Right? Like, people aren't ready,   for, like, what happens next based on based on this. Right?  

[00:12:19] Unknown:

No. I mean, listen.   Have fun putting the toothpaste back in that tube. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned, like, gun control is dead.   There's there's nothing you can do to stop the proliferation of this data. Right? It'd be like trying to say, oh, we're gonna stop file sharing. Look how that turned out.  

[00:12:38] Unknown:

So the the freaks are the freaks in the chat seem a little upset with us for this very eloquent Bitcoin conversation we're having.   Before we move on to,   no. Yeah. Before we move on to Taproot, I wanna talk about transaction fees.   The   the   there's no single mempool, but mempools,   if you look up, like, in mempool.space,   who has their own hosted mempool,   You can see right now, and I'm sure most people who have tried to use Bitcoin over the last,   5 or 6 days have noticed that fees have increased   significantly.   And I think there's a lot of confusion, especially among NewCointers,   about what that means,   why fees exist,   why they are necessary, and how to basically plan around them.  

So I I think it's a very important topic, that's very topical right now, and it's a good place to start.   So you wanna start there, Evan? Like, what why you wanna to the freaks, like, why we have transaction fees in the first place? Like, why can't I just send a transaction for no money?  

[00:13:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure thing. So,   one of the constraints that we have on Bitcoin is   a block size. There's only a limited amount of transactions that can get in to every block that's supposed to get processed every 10 minutes or so.   And, basically,   the main crux of why we have this limit at all is to keep Bitcoin decentralized.   In our community, it's always been very valuable that an average user is able to spin up a node   and, do so in a reasonable amount of time even with not great Internet.   To do it for cheap cost,   it's very important that, you know, user can get a hard drive and, like, a Raspberry Pi and run one of these node projects.  

And, basically, the nodes I mean, the the alternative   shitcoins that don't have these block sizes or have bigger block limits,   they're more prone to being centralized as it's not so easy for,   you know, individuals to run their own nodes.   So if push comes to shove in those ecosystems,   it's easier to, you know, go after the choke points, go after an   AWS, for example, on some of the chains with bigger blocks, bigger sizes.   And, you know, you can effectively cripple the whole network there. So the point of with Bitcoin is that we're going after, you know, legacy institutions, central banks that have run the planet for a 100 years plus.   We need to make sure that our protocol stays,   resilient and decentralized.  

And as a result,   you need to end up paying some fees to get your blocks in.   Fortunately,   the layer 1 where you're paying all these fees is not really what   you're gonna be using for, like, instant settlement in, like, your day to day transactions.   So it's so okay that these transactions aren't going through instantly or, you know, they you have to pay to get them processed.   At least that's the way I see it.  

[00:15:51] Unknown:

Yeah. I think, like, a good just example to, like,   make it, like, more clear. It's like, you know, if we didn't have a block size limit, I could write a bot that produces a terabyte worth of transactions every day. And now you just store a terabyte worth of data every day. And, you know, that quickly become infeasible to, store for the average person.   And, you know,   to keep that from happening, we have a a limit of how many transactions can be produced in a single block in any subsequent day.   And,   you know,   right now,   we're getting, we had a huge decrease in mining hash rate. So because of that, blocks aren't coming out as quickly. So,   therefore, we're doing less transactions in a single day, which is why we have this huge spike in fees.  



[00:16:37] Unknown:

So fees. Their fees are used as a spam prevention mechanism,   to reduce the load on the network, so you can't just do, like, a denial of service attack.   On top of that, they pay minors. So fees are absolutely necessary. A sustained fee market is absolutely necessary for the long term security of the Bitcoin network. Yep.   Ben,   so so with all that so so this point of this this show, the point is to dispatch. The point of us meeting up every every Tuesday   is to discuss actionable things.   So I think the number one thing that people should realize is   and we're gonna we're gonna dive into to speculation here and stuff like that, but   the reason   we all expect fees to increase,   over time long term. Fees I I got a lot of shit yesterday, but I said fees are designed to pump forever.  

The   this particular spike   is   primarily caused by this loss of hash rate. And because you have this loss of hash rate, blocks are coming in slower   until we get the next difficulty adjustment, which will bring the difficulty down, and then blocked will come back in at that target time of around 10 minutes.   But until then, we're getting less blocks in the same amount of time than we usually would. So as a result, if transaction demand is the same or increases,   your fees should increase. It's a market. It's a free market.   So with all that said, for the average user,   if you're if you weren't prepared for high fees, and we're gonna talk about what what it means to be prepared for high fees,   your best move is really to just sit this out and wait for the difficulty adjustment. Right?  



[00:18:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely. It's, like, I don't know. Right now, I think men pulled out spaces, like, average fee is, like, $20. So, you know, if you don't wanna pay $20 worth of fees for,  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

to the  

[00:18:40] Unknown:

71 stats per bite. Yeah. So, like, you know, if you throw a big ball like that and don't wanna pay that, then, you know, then you're forced to huddle, which, you know, might turn out good, might turn out bad, but, you know, maybe we we think it'll turn out well.  

[00:18:53] Unknown:

So, so question, when is   this   difficulty adjustment due? I I know that it typically happens   every 2 weeks or so, although it's by   block. Right? Right? It's something like 2016   blocks.  

[00:19:10] Unknown:

Right. So we're entering into FUD territory a little bit,   but this hash was pulled towards the beginning of the difficulty adjustment,   which means it will take us longer   much longer than usual,   to to reach it. Usually, the difficulty adjustment is supposed to be targeting 2 weeks.   It looks now I'm trying to pull it up on my screen. It looks now, like,   we have 14   1400 blocks to go, 1462   blocks to go, and they're targeting April 30th,   which is about 10 days from now,   for the retarget.   But that's an estimate. Right? It's an estimate of an average block time. All all right. All short term hash rate   numbers are basically   they're people are just taking the difficulty and the number of blocks we've had over a certain amount of time, and they're making a guess on how much hash rate there is. There's no way to to verifiably prove how much hash rate there is besides working it out backwards. Another thing to keep in mind, though, here, which is really cool about fees   and this this this free market for fees is in this situation,   because fees are pumping,   it encourages miners that aren't online or might not have been profitable before   to turn on their rigs and get us through that difficulty adjustment. Right? Because as blocks slow, the fee revenue goes up. The higher the fee revenue goes, the more incentive it is for a new miner to come in and, return on turn on old hash power. Right? Yeah. The last block had 3.13  

[00:20:45] Unknown:

Bitcoin worth of fees. So, yeah, it's, like, half or so total total reward is 9.38. So, like, a third of the reward is fees right now, which is really enticing for them.  

[00:20:56] Unknown:

Yeah. To all the minor freaks out there, drinks are on you.   They're having a great time. So let's, well, let's talk about the speculation. Right? The speculation is   that there was, an accident at a coal mine in China,   in a province where there's a a large contingency of Bitcoin miners, And as such,   the Chinese government,   turned off   a bunch of coal factories over there. And I guess these miners, you during the wet season, they use excess hydro, and then during the dry season,   they use   coal.   And as a result, they're offline for a couple weeks,   because because of this government action.  

So how do we feel about that?  

[00:21:42] Unknown:

Makes sense. I mean, I've never been to China, but   that's what they're saying. It makes sense why the miners would go down.   It's funny that you mentioned it's like the the wet season miners. Because we had, like, a similar thing happened, like, 6 months ago when   all of them moved from the the hydro dams, I guess, up here. And now   and now we're experiencing it again where, you know, they all left me to deal with difficulty.  

[00:22:05] Unknown:

What I'm being told is   and and see, as as I as I remind you, freaks, when when   when we're talking about hash on short term time basis, we're either we're either using these estimates that are derived   or people are just trusting the miners on the ground what they're saying, right, which is a very not Bitcoin thing is that you're just you're just trusting words from Chinese miners over there and people in the know.   But from what I'm being told   is that   they're gonna do that transition again, but this time from coal to hydro in about a month, like, 3 to 4 weeks. And this power   situation, like, screwed them right before that transition. So there's a chance   there's a chance that this plus them moving, or maybe the smart ones are just moving already right now and just getting ready.  

The re the reason I said, like, we're kind of entering FUD territory   is   because,   so so when I first read this this story   out of China, I read it as it just sounded like proof of stake FUD. Right? Like, 40% of the hash rate was pulled off the network by the Chinese government   from dirty coal mines, and, like, proof of stake is the best.   Like, that was my   my hard and big corner   read of the story originally, and now it's kind of been confirmed by a bunch of people, and, you know, they're saying it's not a fun line. But there's 2 takes here that I've heard, and I'm curious on your opinion on them. The first take is,   that   that,   there's been Bitcoin deniers have used the accusation   that, you know, 70% of the hash rate is located in China, and this proves that, like, 30 or 40% is located there.  

And so that's a bullish thing. And then the second take is,   this is what it would look like if you had some kind of government sponsored attack on Bitcoin.   You early in a difficulty adjustment, you would pull a shit ton of hash off the network or as much hash as you could pull off the network. Make the difficulty adjustment last as long as possible,   and then maybe if you had other hash, like, pull some shenanigans while you're shadow mining a competing chain or something like that.   And then I guess there's a third there's a third thing that I've heard   where is could this be, like, some kind of conspiracy of a cartel of Chinese miners to try and boost fees or boost shitcoins.  

So I'm curious on your guys' opinion on those 3 because, you know, we do the show every we do the show every week, and it's just fun to speculate on this shit.  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

Interesting. Alright. So let's tackle the first one first. So you said that this shows that China only has 30%   of the hash rate.   Well, wouldn't that only be for this province?   Unless, like, the proportion of minors are, like, disproportionately only in this province,   you would think that it would be higher than, you know, 30, 35%.  

[00:25:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't prove any I I a 100% agree. Oh, the only thing it proves is that 30% of the hash rate, you know, can turn off together. It just doesn't it doesn't say that there's any other crazy. I mean, yeah, it's it's better than 70% of the network going down. Right? But, still not reassuring and goes to show that, mining still needs to be further decentralized.  

[00:25:33] Unknown:

But at the same time, things are still moving,   albeit at a slower rate. You know? Our blocks are,   you know, still churning out,   maybe closer to 13 minutes than 10 minutes.   But,   yeah, it goes to show some of the resilience of, Bitcoin.   Now the second question was about,   state sponsored attacks and what this would look like. It's like, yeah, we're totally gonna see this,   in different jurisdictions where there are crackdowns.   It just happens to be that, you know, China has such a huge conglomerate of these miners,   that we see this go down. But who knows? In the future, we could see,   even much greater   difficulty adjustment draw downs than this. And,   you know, it'd be hard to crack down on all the mining in the world, you know, given personal operations and whatnot, but it's easier to, pull the switch on the bigger operations.  

And then what was the third one? You said that was this potentially done for for or  

[00:26:37] Unknown:

to pump Altcoin?   Not necessarily. Well, the second part was. The first part was so you have, like, a cartel of minors. Right? Like, they all know each other. Mhmm. We know, like, it's a it's an incestuous community over in the the western world. It's definitely we don't have an eye sight into the, you know, the eastern markets as much,   but, like, it's definitely super incestuous over there too. Right? Like, there's, like, a there's, like, probably, like, 10 dudes that that are, like, the movers and shakers over there, and they all known each other for fucking years.   The the conspiracy or the theory is that,   they they   strategically   cut hash   to   boost fees so that their fee revenue goes up   or and or   to create FIFA to boost shitcoins.  

Right? Because, like, I look. All the b cash deals have all come out of the woodwork.   Like, I it's it's it feels very 2017 in terms of FIFA on Twitter right now.  

[00:27:40] Unknown:

I don't know if they're using it to,   at least for, like, maybe the altcoin thing makes sense, but for the, like, fee like, bumping the fees up so then they could,   claim that. I don't think that makes too much sense because,   you know, they're, like, with like, they're losing, like, you know, like, it's been, what,   4 or 5 days worth of mining revenue.   I don't know if the mempool will get fill enough for them to get that back if they turn them back on right now.  

[00:28:07] Unknown:

But what if they turn them back on, like   like, 5 days before the target?   They still get some of that fee revenue. There's still gonna be a massive backlog. They get, like, a 25%   reduction or 20% reduction in difficulty.   I mean, this is why the difficulty adjustment's so long. Right? So it can't be easily gained. But if you have 40% of the hash, maybe there is a gaming mechanism.   Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:28:36] Unknown:

Yeah. And there's probably some math equation you can figure out to calculate if you can, but   it's all like no. It's very hard to, predict what's gonna happen and, like,   you know, it could pay off, I guess, but I don't know. That'd be kind of a a weird bet to make.  

[00:28:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, my guess yeah. Go on. Go on, Evan. Oh, I I just came up with a an even better conspiracy   theory out of Who does that? You just said. So,   I think that the minors are colluding,   to push everyone   onto,   Lightning Network.  

[00:29:12] Unknown:

Or maybe Block's to upgrade them. It's  

[00:29:15] Unknown:

it's Alex Bosworth. He has ties to China,   and he just wants to make those routing fees.   That's that's my period.  

[00:29:24] Unknown:

Blockstream paid them to get them on to to get people to use liquid now.  

[00:29:29] Unknown:

Yeah. Those lick those,   those lizards, they have they have pulp,   so gotta watch out for them.  

[00:29:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, just to be clear here, I think I mean, we're supposed to keep that in secret. What the hell?  

[00:29:41] Unknown:

I don't know. Samsung's gonna be pissed.  

[00:29:47] Unknown:

Just to be clear here, I think,   the first one   the the state sponsored,   confirms thing is that's bullshit.   That's just a weird bullish slant to make.   A state attack,   probably bullshit.   It's just something to keep in mind. Like, if you were going to attack it using a hash rate kind of attack, I think that's how you would do it. You would just pull a lot of hash. You that's how you would see the first set of the attack. So I'm kinda curious.   And then the third part is, you know, I also think is is is probably a fucking stretch, but it's just an interesting thing to think about just because   that like, 6 months ago when it happened to the rainy season thing and we were just all told the rainy season thing, like, that was the first time we were ever told the rainy season thing. They just pretended like that was, like, the thing that happens every 6 months. Like, I had never   right? Like, we had we had never   seen a drawdown that hard,   and it was just weird, like, everyone's just, like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's just that's just what happens every 6 months, like, all the miners just, like, put their stuff in trucks and drive it over.  

But, so that was just my adversarial thinking. And then the last but not least,   the   would you guys agree that if you're, like, a big player and you're doing major transactions, like, you know, maybe   maybe require more confirmations   before you,   settle things   just because, you know, you have all this hash that's, like, kind of unaccounted for out of nowhere in a single difficulty adjustment. Is that, like, a a safe advice, or is that just over paranoid?  

[00:31:19] Unknown:

I think that's safe advice. I know there's, like, some papers that have been written that's, like, you know, in theory, you want 51%   attack to attack. But,   you know, there's some, like, games you could play that you could only use, like, 30 or 40% and still, like, effectively attack the network. So, yeah, you know, wait for   6 confirmations instead of 1, and, you know, that's probably a better idea.  

[00:31:42] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's nice that we always have this mechanism built in. Like, you count the blocks,   to, you know, calculate   how much security you want. So it's nice that everyone can at least adjust that, depending on their,   risk threshold.  

[00:31:56] Unknown:

So,   Evan, I'm happy I have you here.   There was I mean, Catan famously said that he would die on the hill for 1 shot per bite.   Narrator, he died on the hill.   You in November,   you,   said to him that you would ride or die with him, one sapper bite forever.   Mhmm. I I I just wanna, like   because I wanna check my bias a little bit because I've been the opposite way. I've been, you know, feeling fee FOMO   for fucking a year and a half now.   I'm like, fees are gonna happen. This is one of the reasons I've been so outspoken about CoinJoin, about, you know, learning about Coin Control, learning about lightning, getting your lightning channels open. Like, people have, like, their lightning channels open right now are are they're good to go.   But it's it's hard to do this in a high fee environment.  

This is definitely   a a weird kind of outlier   in terms of this much hash leaving the network at once. I I don't really remember,   except for maybe 6 months ago when we were told about the rainy season thing, anywhere close to this much hash going off in a single difficulty adjustment.   Is is this the start   of the next major sustained fee cycle? Like, we haven't seen the mempool clear   this whole year.   It has not cleared yet this whole year. Is this kind of,   the straw that breaks the camel's back and and it starts, like, this next sustained fee market, or, you know, what do you what do you think happens?  

[00:33:26] Unknown:

I mean, I that's assuming that,   you know, our drawdown in the bear market,   as far as transaction count, at least, I guess,   isn't so severe. So I would say that we're still gonna have this crazy fee environment   for the next, let's say,   11 months or so, at least. Right?   But then, you know, the next couple of years, who's to say it doesn't clear out a couple times at least?   So my my point is that, you know, over time, these fees, they are gonna trend upwards.   This is sort of gonna become the normal in our bull markets,   but I   haven't quite accepted that.  

At least, I don't think that we're not gonna see, like, low fee rates again. I I I expect sometime late next year, middle next year, we'll probably see 1 and 2, Satoshi per v byte blocks. Well, when do you think when do you think that when do you think 1 sat per byte is gonna clear again?   I don't know. Probably not till March or April of next year.   I feel like this bull market is just gonna you so bearish?   I'm bearish still. Right?  

[00:34:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I we'll see. I think it I think what do you think? What do you think, Ben?  

[00:34:40] Unknown:

Yeah. I kind of echo what Evan says. Like, previously, we were, you know, like, you could get, like, a 5 sapper biden on a weekend sometimes and, like but otherwise during the week, it was only going up. So we're gonna have to, like, get many weekends in again to, like, have that negative pressure to, like, clear some of the swim pool. And then and then every week during this bull market, it's gonna fill back up again. So, I don't know. Probably till, like, 6 months into the next bear market or something, it'll actually clear.  

[00:35:07] Unknown:

But we'll see. To the people watching our video feed right now,   you can see the 1 year chart,   and   that's a pretty crazy 1 year chart. I mean,   that just looks like   I don't do I might is that my bias showing that I'm looking at this and I'm just like, it's gonna be even crazier than 2017,   like, in terms of in terms of SaaS per byte fees. And let's forget about USD fees. People get trapped in this idea of talking about fees in USD.   Fees in USD matter way less,   than fees as a sat per byte. This chart is sapper byte, and the reason is is because your UTXOs are in sats.   Right? So if if you have a if you have a UTXO that's 500,000   sats,   you don't care   what the USD cost to move it is. You care what the SATs cost to move it percentage that you have to pay to move that, and we have this theory we have this theory. We have this concept called dust, right, which is when that fee   in SaaS goes above the UTXO   value.  

So, I mean, I look at this, and I'm just like, fuck. But I've just been saying that for a year and a half, so maybe that's just,   maybe that's just a bias talking.  

[00:36:20] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a scary looking graph. Yeah.   I probably agree on that. What more can I can I say on that? You know, hopefully, things cool off. But   like I said, probably not till,   you know, next year, April at least. And   so, yeah, I mean, that that's got some pretty broad repercussions   in the ecosystem,   not even just with people trying to send transactions, but   spills into lightning and people opening up channels. It spills into coin join and people mixing their coins.   You know, it it's a big problem if this is a sustained   thing.  



[00:36:57] Unknown:

Yeah. We're we're gonna get to that and then go. Yeah? I I pulled up the all time chart on my computer, and,   we're about, like, half of what the 2017   high was. So but we're, like, consistently here where this is there, like, you know, it lasted for, like, a week or 2. So   What are you using for the all time? Yeah. I'll put up in the chat for you.  

[00:37:19] Unknown:

I'll pull it up on the video.   Oh, yeah. Of course. This one, the OG,   mempool.   So just to make it clear for the freaks, when people say mempool, what they really mean is every individual node basically has a waiting list of transactions   in their individual mempool. There is no   the mempool.   Mhmm. But most mempools of well connected nodes should look the same. So what we do is, you know, there's a couple of hosted sites that have,   these mempool charts that show their own mempool,   And now what's really cool is because we have these software packages like raspyblitz,   Umbrel, whatnot,   you can actually easily,   you know, you use your own instance, use your own node to to view the mempool, but we tend to go to these hosted sites just because it's convenient.  



[00:38:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely. And and what's the default limit for,   cores, mempools, or something like 300? It's  

[00:38:17] Unknown:

300 megs. Gotcha.   I fucking can't take a screenshot of here because he he wants   he's showing my,   well, it is what it is. You're not gonna see a screenshot of the   of the full the full mempool out to 2017. But as,   as Ben said, it does seem like we're kinda half, but, also, Ben, like, that was, like, a very quick hit that, like, Roger Ver and Co and and and Bitmain kinda, like I felt like they manufactured.   And   per our previous conversation, we're agreeing that this isn't manufactured right now. Right? We're this is not an attack.   2017   was was started by an attack. Is this an attack?  



[00:39:01] Unknown:

I don't think I think, like, I think this is giving more credence to, like because, like, a lot of people speculate that was an attack or some people, like, no. It's just, you know, the end of the bull market and everyone going crazy sending transactions. But I think this is kinda giving credence to that because, you know, back then, it was, like, thousands of, like, you know, 1,000 sat per vBuy transactions and stuff like that. And, you know, it just looks stupid versus now, like, you know, since blocks are, like, all consistently, like, around the same fee rate, it's just extraordinarily high. So I think this, like, gives a lot more, you know, weight to, like, what other people are saying. You know, that wasn't a tech, and this is, like, what an actual real fee market is turning out  

[00:39:37] Unknown:

to be. Yeah. I tend I tend to agree.   So   I wanna dive into, like, the implications of the sustained fee market because I do kind of think that's what comes next.   Before we get there so there's a couple different scenarios of   there's a couple different scenarios,   for people that are that are listening, and and we talk about actionable. Right? First scenario is,   there was they received a transaction and sitting in the mempool   sitting in mempools and it's unconfirmed.   Right?   What what what should that what should that person do? There it it shows in their wallet as unconfirmed. They're waiting for the transaction to confirm as a receiver.  

[00:40:23] Unknown:

It depends. If you trust your counterpart, you can just wait. If not, you can,   you can spend it, like, back to yourself at a higher fee rate And, just make sure that the average fee rate of the 2 transactions   is, high enough to get into, like, the next block, whatever block target you want.  

[00:40:40] Unknown:

That's that's all pays for pairing,  

[00:40:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Most wallets, if you have coin control, you can do this manually. Some wallets like, blue wallet even just has a bump fee button you can use. So,   should be doable.  

[00:40:52] Unknown:

Most wallets don't have coin control, Ben. If your wallet doesn't have coin control, this is a horrible for your privacy because it will link everything in your wallet.   But you can send all   you can send all to your own address. That's that's child pays for parent. Child pays for parent is this idea that you take an unconfirmed transaction, you send it to yourself with a higher fee. The combined fee is what a minor cares about because they get both at the same time.   Right?   And,   so then the other scenario oh, and by the way, to the to the freaks that are watching, as you can see, I have the mempool, the chart I was trying to get up,   where you can see the previous 2 spikes that happened or, I guess, 3 spikes that happened in the 2017 cycle, and you can compare it to kind of the lead up and this spike that we're seeing now.  

It does seem like when you look at the actual   fee bans,   that this does seem a bit healthier,   that people are more low time preference. Right? A lot of the transactions that that seem to be in the mempools are lower fees, just people willing to wait.   As Evan said earlier,   the the default in core is 300 megs.   So that mean,   if   the   and that that's the 300 megs of the highest fee transaction. So if your fee falls underneath that range, you will get dropped from mempools, and you will either have to rebroadcast   your transaction,   or resend your transaction with with a higher fee, or resend your transaction at a later date.  

The other key thing to keep in mind is that core defaults to a 2 week time limit on transactions   in   individual mempools.   So now we get to the next piece of question. I've sent a Bitcoin transaction, and it's unconfirmed. What can I do   to get it confirmed?   And if you wait   approximately 2 weeks, it should be dropped from mempools, and then you should be able to resend that transaction   with a higher fee or whatever fee you want to send it with. Now   let's say you don't wanna wait. What should that user do?  

[00:43:03] Unknown:

You can do the same thing in child pays for parent it, but, in this case, you need to have received a change output.   So if you sent, like, a full, like, UTXO to someone, you can't do this. And then your only fallback then is,   replaced by fee,   where you just basically redo the transaction but with a higher fee.   But some you need to signal with this for your first transaction,   and auto wallets don't really expose this. So   need to be make sure you do like, know what you're doing here.   But, yeah, it's something like Bitcoin Core or Electrum will let you do this, but  

[00:43:39] Unknown:

I don't know. Otherwise, don't. Yeah. Make sure you check your settings,   to make sure that enable RBF is toggled on.   It's good idea to have it on usually.  

[00:43:49] Unknown:

I think we have a lot of freaks here that might think, like, they understand this stuff. I think it's but we also have a lot of freaks that don't, and I think it's really important that we cover it. But most importantly, I think, the demographic of this show is is uncle Jims and future uncle Jims.   And I'm sure you guys are all getting these questions. So I think it's you know, in these types of situations, it's really good that we work through this stuff together   because, I mean, my phone has just been blown up by people confused by this stuff.   So, I mean, a a key aspect here is if you're sending to yourself,   you just chill.  

There's no funds at risk. It doesn't matter. If you trust your counterparty, period, obviously, you trust yourself, but you trust your counterparty, period, you just chill. Right? Mhmm.   Wait for difficulty adjustment, especially in this particular period where where you you have this difficulty adjustment causing a short term high fees.   What else did I wanna talk about here? Do we have any other nuances that that people should know about in terms of transaction fees?   Like, how should you how should you choose your transaction fee? I'll pull up the   you know, first of all, this is, like, all super technical stuff. I know people get a little bit   glassy eyed when we talk about this technical stuff, so I'm gonna talk about a bullish thing really quickly.  

The last 3 months,   we've had all time high transaction volumes on Bitcoin when measured in, shitty money in US dollars. So,   whoo,   killing it.   Okay.   Now,   let's get back to the nitty gritty.   What,   what was where was I at there? You were asking  

[00:45:26] Unknown:

best way to pick your fee. How do we pick our fees? Yeah. Yeah.   So yeah. So I I like to use 2 tools right now   for picking that.   So one is the lovely mempool.space   that we had up there earlier.   Yeah. There it is. So if you take a look at the blocks,   the top number with the tilde   tells you the average   fee for each transaction.   And then right underneath that in the yellow, it tells you the range of the fees.   So the cheapest transactions in blocks, 679-946   were as low as 274   SaaS per vByte,   and they also went as high as,   3,462   SaaS per VBITE.  

So,   typically,   you can do 2 things. You can take a look at the last, you know, 6 to 12 blocks and see what the low   average was.   So right now, if you wanna get it in, you gotta set it to, like, 180   pretty much at least, but we're trending towards higher fees.   But then, there's also a tool built into mempool space that tells you what you should be paying,   low priority, medium priority,   and high priority transactions. That's below the blocks on the left side right there, and it gives you both the sat per v byte and the dollar equivalent.   So that's really good. I also personally like what the fee   dot I o.  

It's a really good,   Bitcoin fee rate estimation table.   It's all colored, and it tells you, okay,   what your time frame is from half hour to 24 hours,   and then what percentage   of, guarantee do you need that this thing is gonna go in? So the first block is 5% chance and the last one's 95. And,   you know, you typically figure out what your time frame is, and   you pick what   amount of risk you wanna accept.   If you pick that 95%   block all the way to the right, yeah, good chances are that they'll go through, but there's still no guarantee as the difficulty can,   you know, tumble the horn. Away from you. Yeah. It can run away from you, which is why it's really, really important   to use RBF   if possible  

[00:47:49] Unknown:

when possible. So would you so I've, like, talked about this in the past, and people just, like, shoot shoot me. And I think this is the only discussion you can really have in a fucking sustained fee market, like, a actual high fee market.   As far as I'm concerned, there's really no there's no there's there's either I'm willing to wait or I want it now.   If I want it now, I'm gonna pay the top level fee.   Like, the fee that I get in literally at the next block or 2 blocks, like, max 3 blocks, because otherwise it's gonna run away from me.   Otherwise,   I'm using RBF replaced by fee. You gotta signal that ahead of time,   and then you're putting in a   an aggressively low fee and kind of waiting and seeing how it works. Or or maybe, I guess, you go,   like,   like, is as like, what I'm trying to say is, like, is there anyone right now in this fee market going,   oh, I'm gonna set, like, a nice 130   sat byte per fee 130   sat per byte fee   to confirm in 5 to 7 days.  



[00:48:54] Unknown:

Like, maybe if you have someone like a contractor who's invoicing you and and they don't necessarily need it right away, but it's, like, sort of a niche case. You know?   Yeah. The important thing to take away from this is   you don't really know. All you can do is look back at the past data, you know, looking back at the last couple of blocks, last day, last week, and, you know, just make the best educated,   you know, guess from there.  

[00:49:24] Unknown:

Ben, you have thoughts here? Yeah. I mean, it's kinda,   yeah, I mean, it's kind of like what what Evan's saying. Like, either   you kind of have to do, like, in a binary way. We're either trying to get into the next block or, you know, maybe just, like, wanna wait and, you know,   just say, like, oh, I'm gonna throw out a 20 SAP provide thing, and hopefully, it gets confirmed in 2 weeks. So, like, you know, if you're sending, like, cold storage or something.   But,   otherwise, yeah, like, especially, like, right now, the fee like, I did a transaction, like,   a few days ago, and I did, like, you know I've used mempool. Spaces hour long, like, 6 block tar target. And   they gave me a 75,   SAP per byte thing, and then, you know, that now that's 30 blocks away from getting it submitted.  

So, like, you know   and it's all he ran away from me. So stuff like that where it's just like you have to wait it out. And, you know, it might it probably will confirm eventually, but who knows when.  

[00:50:23] Unknown:

But that was just to yourself anyway.   Yeah. So it doesn't really matter if it Yeah. Exactly. You don't have to worry about it. So I mean, like, so, like, things like RBF,   lightning,   liquid maybe,   like, these things get you know, part of the cool part about the fee market is that they get adopted because people get burned in these situations. Right? They end up in this they have to people are, you know, humans, and this is just how they learn.   So they're not ready for this fee market, and they're gonna need to prepare for the future.   Now there's an argument, and I kinda wanna discuss it,   but we'll discuss this later, so I'm not even gonna bring it up yet.  

The   if this we're we're we're gonna assume let's assume that we're talking,   this is a nice little temporary bump.   Matt is extremely biased, and he's just had fee FOMO for a year and a half, and he thinks, like, fees are gonna go out of control.   But in, like, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, we get, like, 2 difficulty adjustments, and we're back down to, like, on Sundays, you're able to get, like, a 7 sapper bite through, a 12 sapper bite through,   which quite frankly, you should be happy you're able to get those through. Fucking maximalist waiting for 1 sapper bite. How do how do the freaks prepare?   How do they get ready   for the inevitable   increase in fees in my opinion? Like, how do they,   they they haven't you know, they've been listening to this show for this whole year, and they've been listening to rabbit hole recap tales from the crypt for over 2 years,   and and that they didn't learn from that, but now   they realize fees are gonna be really high. How do they prepare?  

Yes. But not in this difficulty adjustment. They should just sit tight for this difficulty adjustment. But after fees come back down, hopefully, how do they do it?  

[00:52:18] Unknown:

So, listen, there's always going to be people that need to spend now, you know, or get their privacy now or whatnot. But,   you know, I'm in a position where I have a great sense of relief because my coins that I need to spend   on chain are already coined. And, you know, I have them ready to run through post mix tools or in cold storage.   And then as far as, you know,   more instant transactions, I have all my Lightning channels open. I have, you know, ample,   capital locked up in those channels to deploy on Lightning Network   if I need. So as much as it's an inconvenience, I don't get to you know, if I wanna open more channels, I gotta eat the fees. If I wanna coin join   more coins,   I gotta eat the fees.  

You know, I I don't really need to do those things. Like, oh, I could probably top it out until next year when the fees go start going down again. So the only really thing you can do is when fees are low, take advantage of it. Open your channels,   do your mixes,   do your, you know, on chain management, whatever that means to you.   And, you know, don't don't let the opportunities   where it does dip, but don't let them slip away from you. So start using stuff like WhatTheFee   and, the mempool   site from,   from Johor or whatever his name is. Use mempool.space,   and, you know, keep your eyes peeled on Sundays,   you know, Sunday afternoon, Sunday evenings,   typically when you see these things clear up.  

So, you know, if you're in Bitcoin, you should be in this thing for the long haul.   So,   you know, you gotta be making these plays when fees are low and when we're in bear markets, especially.  

[00:54:02] Unknown:

Ben, what are your thoughts here? Yeah. I think, Evan had a really good point. Something   that,   you know, you can you can do but might not be recommended is consolidating UTXOs.   Generally, you don't wanna use this with, coin joined funds, but, you know,   maybe if you are coin joining your funds, it might make sense to just, you know, consolidate them into ones. Now it's cheaper to send, and then you don't have risk where, you know, half your funds become dust or something. So you wanna explain why that's horrible for your privacy?   Yeah. Other  

[00:54:35] Unknown:

Do you wanna explain why that's horrible?  

[00:54:37] Unknown:

It's really bad if   yeah. So if you're if you're doing a coin join and say, like, I have 10   mix this through Wasabi or Samura or Joy Market,   whatever, and,   you do it. Now you have, like, all you have, like, a 100.1   UTXOs. And then if you just recombine them,   well, now they could just see, oh, okay. A 100 Bitcoin came in.   They got all jumbled up. We don't know where it went. But then someone combined a a 100 or, you know, a 1000.1   UTXOs back into a 100 Bitcoin.   And then they just know, okay. That's the same guy. Like, it's like if you   if everyone walked into a building   and shuffled around Tats walked out, but, like, you're the only one guy with a red shirt on. Like, you know, they're gonna be like, okay. It was him anyways. He he's the only guy with the red shirt.  

So,   you know, you need to be worried about, like, you know, you can't give any links from your your before coinage ring to after. And combining   allows you to, like, find the amount and say, like, oh, this this amount happened before and after so they can, you know, correlate that to you.  

[00:55:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Correlation and tax are, really tricky, especially with stuff like,   atomic swaps and whatnot,   timing analysis, and the amount analysis.   So, yeah, I mean,   the red shirt thing too is, like, a lot of these privacy tools,   just in general, even outside of Bitcoin,   they work better when you have the numbers on your side, when there's been more people wearing that red shirt. You know what I mean? Well, before we before we get to the private it's more it's bigger than privacy tools. Right? Like, if  

[00:56:14] Unknown:

if you combine your transactions,   if you combine so the single biggest driver of transaction fee burden, on chain fee burden, is how many transactions you have on the input side. Mhmm. So let's say you wanna send a transaction that's 500,000   sats.   Okay?   If you have a single UTXO   that is a 1,000,000 sats and you pay that 500,000   SATs and you get a single change you get a single change output back,   for the remainder 500,000 SATs, that is your minimal fee burden. That is the that is the estimated transaction fee   that,   when they show dollar amounts on mempool.space,   that's what they're going by. Okay? That is on chain, that is the single cheapest way for you to make a transaction.  

The input side is where you have the highest cost,   just straight up, the number of inputs. So that same 500,000   sat transaction that you're making, if instead of making it with a single 1,000,000 sat input, you make it with a   500,000   sat inputs, you're gonna pay significantly more in fees. So the argument historically has been combine your UTXOs into as few UTXOs as possible, it reduces   your future on chain fee burden.   But you are obviously linking the ownership of all of those UTXO. So if I beat Ben   in in poker,   and then I went to BitDevs   and, you know, someone paid me because they owed me for dinner, and then I had a KYC transaction that came into the wallet from, you know, Cash App or whatever KYC service, strike or something.  

And then you have,   the non KYC, maybe you're mining or you could get through BISK, and you combine all of those together,   anyone who looks on chain knows. If they know if they know one of those UTXOs,   they know you own all of them. If Ben is looking at the chain, if Cash App is looking at the chain, they know the Cash App UTXO, and they know the Ben UTXO. Right?   That that's the issue. And and when you when you look at the mainstream wallets, it show it as UTXOs.   The mainstream wallets mostly show it as a single balance. It's not a single balance. You really have a bunch of little bills or UTXO's   bills in terms of cash, like, all these UTXO's that are making up your wallet in the back end that you don't see if your wallet doesn't have coin control. This is why all wallets have coin control.  



[00:58:35] Unknown:

Yep.   You Matt, you nailed it. You irreparably   link these transactions,   these UTXOs   together when you consolidate the outputs.   And, Matt, some users, they have this misconception. They think, okay. Yeah. Sure. I'm gonna just consolidate my inputs,   but I'm so clever. I'm gonna just throw it through CoinJoin.   Can you explain to the freaks listening out there why that doesn't help you,   in regards  

[00:59:01] Unknown:

see there? And there's Nuance, like every other good thing in Bitcoin,   is that it could help your forward privacy,   but you've already linked the transactions before that happens. Right? You've already linked all those UTXOs as we said in the previous example.   So you're hurting your privacy in that that that pre element,   and then you're   hopefully, if you if you   if you use CoinJoin correctly, you're helping your privacy on the forward scenario. But, I mean, in a high fee environment, you're gonna be paying significantly in fees.   So, I mean,   the   the single best thing you can do in today's world, which we didn't have in 2017,   is start to get used to lightning and experimenting with lightning. Right? And and you you you kinda   you you want you want to have your UTXOs   in a position   where you have the sufficient spending cash   ready to go in lightning,   without too much on chain fee burden for your cold storage, and, like, that's, like, kinda the ideal situation you wanna be in. The problem is   is   I I don't know if it's a problem or a feature. The the cool thing about this incentive structure   is that users are naturally getting burned by fees, and then they learn and they try and be more   If you don't do it efficiently, you're gonna pay more in fees and you're gonna have to learn.  

Now the problem is   the problem is in a high fee environment,   it becomes way more difficult, I think, for   like, a sustained high fee environment, it becomes way more costly,   expensive for for freaks,   and painful for freaks to, like, try and, you know, learn these things. Like, I   like, I've had very expensive lessons, and those expensive lessons happened at 5 SaaS per byte. Yeah.   These lessons are gonna get even more expensive. Right?  

[01:01:01] Unknown:

Absolutely.   You know, as time goes on   and number go up,   your mistakes become even more costly. So   better to get it done sooner than later. And,   you know, if you're gonna   have an expensive lesson, you know, learn from it.   So   Matt's just thinking back to all the fees. He's fucked up on Lightning and CoinJoint right  

[01:01:28] Unknown:

now. On that note,   the the infamous   tails from the crypt node,   TFTC stacking stats   has been moved   to significantly better hardware.   Nice.   It is now being sponsored by Nautocloud.   So it is   it is on Nautocloud,   and   it's super high performance,   and the minimal channel size has been reduced to 500 1,000 sats.   So,   hopefully, it's not another expensive lesson for me. I think that is hopefully, it can be a sufficient minimum channel size, But any freaks   who have been experimenting   with Lightning might be aware   that a lot of the large routing nodes   have minimal channel sizes.  

A lot of them   don't allow you to create channels   that are lower than,   4,000,000 Sats, which right now is over $2,000, which, you know, quite honestly, like, I'm just not fine with that.   So what's really cool here is   this node is a very well connected node.   Bosworth has given it a a decent score.   Okay? So our Bos score is pretty good,   for whatever if that means anything to you guys,   and,   it allows you and it's Tor only. It's Tor only. It's not run by a regulated company,   so so consider it.  

[01:03:03] Unknown:

Cool. Yeah. I that's really awesome of the Nodl team to   reach out to the node thief and put them in their data facility. That's great.  

[01:03:13] Unknown:

Yes. Yes. The node thief is   is working with nava cloud now. So this is the node.   So if you want to connect to it, I guess, just go on to 1mlorln.bigsun   and and type in stacking stats,   and you'll be able to get that pub key because, obviously, you can't copy it from an image. I guess you could use the QR code.   But yeah. So I I thought that was important to mention.   I think it's gonna be really interesting, guys, to see how   maybe my bias is showing again, but if it's not this time, I'm curious to see   what happens,   how these lightning implementations and these lightning wallets handle, like, a sustained high fee environment.  

We kind of haven't really dealt with it in a lot of, like, the really cool UX ways   of dealing with it.   I just feel like I haven't been stress tested. You know? Like, I've been loving Moonwallet lately, m u u n wallet.   I don't know what their fee assumptions are, you know, or, like, Breezewallert or Phoenix. Like, what are their fee assumptions? Like, how is that going to influence   things?   I think also   that there's something   is there something about, like, the channel open last if it, like, lasts longer than 2 weeks, you have issues or something like that? Am I mistaken there?   Are you guys aware of that at all?  



[01:04:35] Unknown:

Thankfully, I haven't been,   in a situation   where I have to experience that firsthand,   but I believe there could be some challenges there.   Certainly, there's a challenge when you're opening   lightning channels   as you cannot use RBF.   You have to if you wanna bump your channel open, you have to do a child pay for parent, which is a little complex.   But, no, I have I haven't had any opens last, 2 week plus. How about you, Ben?  

[01:05:07] Unknown:

No. I don't think I have. Normally, I try to get those in quickly in case something goes wrong. But,   I know   on the closing side, there was, like, a bunch of recent improvements where,   like, before there's, like, this, like, loop flooded loop paper where, like, you couldn't bump the fee of your closing transaction.   But, now   I think most lighting implementations allow you to do anchor outputs, so you always have a   an output to bump the fee on so you can,   make sure your closing   transaction gets,   in the mempool   or in a block, which is really good to see because, you know, if if you close, something on Thursday and then Friday,   fees jump up by a 100 sats per byte, like and now you could be screwed. And,   you know, this could, like, help save you now, which is really good to see.  



[01:05:58] Unknown:

So the my what   I mean, and this is classic,   I'm I'm just gonna I I it's unconfirmed. I I'm not sure, but my understanding was that if   the way the way it works, like, if you open a channel and it lasts it takes longer than 2 weeks to confirm and then confirms, it just, like, automatically force closes   based on, like, the game theory logic of lightning.  

[01:06:24] Unknown:

Because the hash   time lock is,   2 weeks by default, so it expires. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right.  

[01:06:34] Unknown:

So, like, all these little educate so people ask me. They they go, Matt, so what are you concerned about about lightning in a high fee environment? Well, first of all, to be absolutely clear, I think at the end of this high fee environment, lightning will be way more robust and way better. And, like, that is the cool part about working in, you know, live adversarial environments.   But what I'm most concerned about is the shit I'm not concerned about. Like, I feel like there's all these different edge cases that people don't think about   that become apparent.  

They become apparent when you're in this high fee environment. Like, what if I like, we talked earlier about the minimal channel size. Right? Like, the concern about the minimal channel size is if your channel size is too small,   the on chain fee is gonna eat up the majority of the channel at time of close.   When is close gonna happen? Is gonna happen in 5, 6 years?   Is close gonna happen, forced closed by your channel partner in the middle of a super high fee environment?   And   we don't really we don't have, like, the we don't have the experience or the data to, like, back any of that shit up. Right?  

[01:07:37] Unknown:

Yeah. And   still, you people need to understand this is a, you know, highly nascent experimental network.   It's made a lot of gains in terms of, you know, growth and   stability, but there's still a lot more to be ironed out.   Like, example, the Lightning Labs guys, they're working on a new type of channel type called,   anchor channels   where you'll have,   some fees.   You'll you'll have UTXOs   that are not in the channel, but they're dedicated to paying the fees afterwards.   So, like, situations and schemes like this, they're gonna be mitigated   as,   you know, new funding types are are added to the network. So that'll be interesting to play out as that gets to clients. I think in   l and d o point   13, that should be out. So that'll be exciting.  

But, yeah, it's gonna there's a lot of challenges that we're gonna see on the network as it grows and scales up,   and there's gonna be a lot of edge cases that people hadn't even thought about.   So   in these times,   you know, you've gotta really,   you know, think about the amount of funds that you're opening   to people. Like, you shouldn't be opening up huge channels to strangers that screw you on channel close. Right? Like, if you're doing a bigger channel, it's nicer if that's with someone who you're friends with who you could send an email to or get on the phone with to sort out the issues you may have there.  

[01:09:09] Unknown:

We lost you for a bit there, for what it's worth. I think we all lost you.   He was perfect for me. Oh, wow. Well, that's good. I'm glad,   glad everyone else heard at least.  

[01:09:22] Unknown:

Okay.   Yeah. Just, gotta have good channel partners for, you know, your real big channels.   You know, you're not gonna want to have massive amounts of,   you know, capital up with some NIM that you don't know and you don't know the reputation of.  

[01:09:40] Unknown:

Right. Most people should have, like, 1 or 2 large channels, basically, to a well connected node   and just call it a day.  

[01:09:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.   Open up to someone who's well connected to the network with a reputation   and  

[01:09:57] Unknown:

and  

[01:09:59] Unknown:

and get get in on it.  

[01:10:02] Unknown:

We have our voice for your Oh, go on.  

[01:10:06] Unknown:

Sorry. Make sure for, like, your inbound capacity too, you wanna, like, have that be on, like, someone that's not gonna close it as well. Because that's, like, inbound capacity is like gold where, you know, you don't wanna lose that stuff, and,   it's a lot harder to get back than just open reopening a channel. So, to make sure, like, you know, if you're, like, looping out, make sure it's through, like, a channel that you don't expect to close out, like, just some random   note that connected to you.  

[01:10:31] Unknown:

So we have we also have our boy, Anthony Ronning, in the chat.   We also have 6102 in the chat before I get there. Don't trust a nim. What the fuck?   Thought lightning was meant to be trustless.   Do you have a   do you have a thought to respond to, Ben?  

[01:10:52] Unknown:

I mean, it is trustless, but it's just like,   you know, you, it it reduces a lot of headaches if if you trust the other side of your,   you know, of lighting. Like, they can't steal your money, but, you know, they could screw you over and, you know, make you pay a high on chain fee.   So and there's, like, a problem. The village down.  

[01:11:13] Unknown:

It it it's trustless in that you and I, Matt, we're not asking anyone's permission to open a channel between us. And, hell, the network doesn't even need to know. It could be private, and we don't broadcast our state to each other. However, it's not trustless in that   you are trusting,   the counterparty in certain situation.  

[01:11:32] Unknown:

I mean, first of all, every time I hear trustless, I just squint, you know, like, just it's trust   minimized.   I think,   there's probably some edge cases where, like, money can be stolen as well, but most, you know, as, you know, like, they drain a channel in a high fee environment. The channel's, like, a low amount. You don't have a minimum channel size. Like, maybe they can end up taking money from you in that respect.   But,   the   I've the the the key the key element here is   is that if if you you you want channel partners that you think will   exist for a long period of time. Right? Because if you have to keep opening and closed channels,   it's gonna cost you significantly on on chain fees, and that's gonna be your main fee burden. I that's gonna be your main cost for running a Lightning node. Like, I saw that on   on the on the stacking SaaS node before it was taken,   was that   you if if you if you just had a large amount of small little channels,   you know, you're just you're gonna end up getting wrecked. You're gonna lose a ton of money. Money. And we have our boy, Anthony Ronning, in here, or Ronning. I apologize if I butchered your your last name.  

The   he was bragging about using Lightning Pool to lease out liquidity,   and that goes hand in hand with our boy, Daddy Warbits, that wants to talk about inbound,   capacity.   And the cool thing about   Lightning Pool is that you can pay people in a   somewhat distributed marketplace,   to provide inbound liquidity to you. So, like, the way I look at Lightning is, like, it's like an abacus,   which is like those Chinese math devices, right, where you move the beads from one side to the other, and it's and that the the Bitcoin's moving from one side the other, and you need to have the beads on your side to be able to spend. You need to have the beads on their side for them to spend to you.   With Lightning Pool, you can get them to send you know, have beads on their side ready to send to you, and you pay them a fee for it. And a perfect example of not being ready for this high fee environment   is Anthony,   has been bragging to me about his trustless 10% that he's been earning.  

And then meanwhile, the on chain fees come in, and they just fucking take all his profit and turn it into loss. And he just gets fucking kicked in the balls. So it's, like, a perfect example of something   that, like, really needed to be stress tested,   with on chain fees, like, high on chain fees.   I guess Yeah.  

[01:14:12] Unknown:

Yeah. Go. I I saw that, the thread where he's like, oh, I kinda got screwed here. I think he was getting, like, a super good rate, like, 10% back, but then, you know, the on chain fee ate all of that, which   really sucks. I know, like, Cool has some   improvements to do to mitigate that, where, like, right now, your channel closes into your lightning wallet, and then you have to do redo a transaction   to your,   to your pool wallet and then, you know, open the channel again. So   you can reduce one of those transactions at least.   But,   yeah, there are, like you know, you kinda get screwed over there. And, you know, I mean, the nature is of Lightning, you you still have to do some on chain transactions. So you always have to account for that. And, hopefully,   Pool can start to count that. Maybe they'll, like, add   a a base fee plus,   you know, the percent fee so you couldn't mitigate these closing,   fees.  



[01:15:04] Unknown:

I mean,   my my biggest concern about well, first of all, Anthony, I love you. Okay? He wants he wants Afrigs to know that he hasn't closed his channel yet, so he hasn't lost any stats yet. That's fine. You know, I'm just I'm just busting your balls.   My my biggest concern about lightning, because I just experienced it myself for a fucking year,   is it just really, really difficult for the average user to conceptualize on fee fee burden on chain fee burden.   Right? It's just like,   like, who knows? Like, humans just aren't good at conceptualizing,   like, what is my what is the right fee I should be charging for my node's   liquidity?  

Like, what is when I close this when is this channel gonna get closed? And when I close it, how much is it gonna cost me? Like, these are things that are just not easy to   price in if if you if you'd say.  

[01:15:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, like so, like, when you open this thing, that was before this huge spikes. You know, fees might have been, like, 50 sats per byte, which isn't awful. But then, you know, at the end of your contract, now it's   250. You kinda get screwed. So it's, like, kind of an impossible problem to solve, but, I mean, they'll lead mitigations.   But, yeah, you kinda just get screwed there.  

[01:16:20] Unknown:

I mean, I think mid channel size kind of helps   the most probably. It's, like, probably the single biggest thing. Right? Because you're reducing the percentage of that on chain fee burning period.   But that kinda sucks. Right? Like, I   I saw Grubles,   our boy, Grubles finally, like, decided he was gonna dive headfirst into lightning, and he was just, like, struck by, like,   he couldn't open any channels with people, like, the large nodes because they just we're all men channel sizing them, you know, like, 5,000,000 SaaS. You gotta you need a pony of $3,000   to open a channel with us.  

Yeah. Greg's like, oh, look, there's a there's a limit, so, it's not trustless.   But that's the issue. Right? It's, like, those parties don't know what to price themselves at, so the single biggest thing they could do is just make the channel size as high as, like, a higher rate.  

[01:17:13] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's crazy. And then over time, you know, even those min limits,   there are even bigger channels as number goes up too. So   oh, man. Okay.  

[01:17:27] Unknown:

So you guys got 14 minutes of   very good 3 d printer gun talk,   which, by the way, just to push back against the freaks that were a little bit upset about that, like, the it's it's the same it's the same idea. It's information wants to be free.   You know, it's it's a it's part of the free open source movement. It's probably one of the strongest,   new defensive technologies we have,   along with Bitcoin, so I it definitely goes hand in hand. So I I don't think it was off topic. Definitely not off topic for Citadel Dispatch. I mean,   you know, this is a Bitcoin first show, but   it's it's not only a Bitcoin show.  

So then we had 14 minutes of that. We had an hour conversation   about lightning and transaction fees.   So let's let's jump into the good stuff. Let's,   Taproot activation.   Are we are we excited about speedy trial getting merged into core?   Are we gonna have Taproot in November?   What should the freaks know about this?  

[01:18:33] Unknown:

I'm super excited. I mean, I was, like, jumping for joy when I saw the PR got merged.   And, I don't know. It's super cool to see. I mean, it finally happens. Like, I know, like, 2 weeks ago, since then on Twitter, like, people were just like, is this thing even gonna happen? But now it's like, you know, I'm running speedy trial on this laptop I'm using right now. Like, you know, it's happening.   And, and we're gonna need minor signal. But,   you know, it seems like it's happening at least. And, you know, you can run the client if you want, and there really should be sometime this week.  

[01:19:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's in at least candidate 1 right now.   So, you know, people should   test it out if you're gonna be using it. Don't mess around with it. I know Know a lot of people have upgraded their nodes already.   But, yeah, all in all, it's just really exciting stuff, as Ben said.   We have a clean path for miners to activate,   and, you know, chances of that are are really, really high.   We were hanging out after,   what was it, after bit dev, after we had dinner at the barbecue joint,   and, we went to some bar afterwards, and I was messing with Ben. I said,   I don't know.  

We this probably won't go through without a user activated software, then you start bugging out.   But yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of Bitcoiners right now, they still have that PTSD from, you know, Segwit and whatnot.   But chances are, this is gonna be merged in. We're gonna have it this year. And even if the miners don't activate and we have to do a user activated soft work,   you know, it will be with good merit. And,   you know, we're we're gonna have this very important upgrade to Bitcoin, and that's gonna pave the way for even more important upgrades. So  

[01:20:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Really, really what a lot of people miss is most or, like, every software besides Segwit activated within, like, the first three months. And,   you know, most of them were, like, pretty seamless, and, you know, Taproot should be the same.   And, like, hopefully, Segwit was just the anomaly. And, you know,   and even if we are wrong in this thing, you know,   you know, it's speedy trial fails, well, we can just   use, Luke dash junior CYSF client and, actually,   you know,   get it in.   Yep.  

[01:20:51] Unknown:

I mean, technically is that Luke, but, I'm glad we have it. I think,   Luke is a contrarian that we need in our community.  

[01:21:00] Unknown:

I mean, technically,   Luke is just   he's posted links to it. He's saying he's not connected to it. Right? I guess Shinobi and at Grassfed Beef are,   claiming   that they're behind that UASF fork.  

[01:21:16] Unknown:

Yeah. UASF   client.   Guess I misread that. Shouts to them then.  

[01:21:22] Unknown:

I mean, Luke is probably involved as well. He's just, you know, he's just a little bit distance.  

[01:21:26] Unknown:

As Luke does. Yeah.   But, yeah, I mean, as much as you may not agree with,   that option and you might not wanna run it,   you can complain with the option being there. You know? We we might actually need it if the miners don't activate, so that'll be good.  

[01:21:44] Unknown:

Yeah. And, like, you know, the the UASF date is, like, the end of 2022,   like, October, November, something like that. So,   you know, we it would be a while until we actually UASF, but it does give, like, a good amount of time for, you know, the ecosystem to get ready if we are gonna do it. So, like, you know, it won't be   it's not like, you know, in the like, this November or something, we start, like, this chain splitting because they this guy released this client. Like, we should be   should be mostly fine.  

[01:22:14] Unknown:

So the we're so with this runway that we have for this to get activated,   I'm expecting a lot of wallets and institutions to have support for Taproot this year.   Let's see how widespread it'll actually be because of the tech debt that these people have, and we know how long it took for Segwit to get activated on a lot of, different exchanges and  

[01:22:37] Unknown:

The worst wallet ever that is involved with the majority of transactions, whether that's through its own wallet or through its API,   which I'm not going to name,   finally merged Segwit, like, yesterday.   Oh, no.   I mean, I think you guys know his wallet I'm talking about. I don't even wanna give  

[01:22:55] Unknown:

give them the I missed that. They actually did it. It wasn't just an April fools joke. They merged it. You know, it hasn't been actually released.  

[01:23:02] Unknown:

You know, support isn't released yet, but if you if you're watching their repo, it's been merged.  

[01:23:08] Unknown:

Wow. It only took, like, 4 years.  

[01:23:11] Unknown:

4 years and, like, 300 sat per byte,   fee spike.   Oh, man.   But,   what is 6102 wants me to put his Taproot timeline on. I'm guessing you sent that to me through something else.   For the record,   I currently think I'm gonna lose my bet with Marty,   which was the deadline was,   the end of this year, Taproot, and the loser has to pay a 1,000,000 sets   to HRF's dev fund.   But I also wanna be clear that I'm, you know, humbly   believing that my my simple 1,000,000 sat bet,   helped incentivize   Marty   to push   core devs,   to push Taproot, and that's why we're getting it before the end of the year. So,   you're welcome.  



[01:24:12] Unknown:

Well, it's worth it. Small price to pay.  

[01:24:17] Unknown:

I am curious how many people actually implement Taproot. There is   a PR into Bitcoin Core that adds spending functionality that'd   be really cool if you know most people don't use Bitcoin   Core, but, That'd be really cool if, you know, you know, most people don't use Bitcoin Core, but,   that'd be awesome if it actually could use it. And,   you know, that's that's like a lot of, you know, a lot of things are built on top of Bitcoin Core. So maybe, you know, it'd be trivial for other people to start implementing if Bitcoin Core has support.   But we do have a problem as well where there's a new address type where address encoding where we're using best 32 m. This is the best 32.  

So there's a niche bug in best 32.   So there will be some we'll have to go through the same headache again of everyone implementing   the ability to parse these addresses and then send to them. So, hopefully, that comes soon, but, you know, we'll see.  

[01:25:15] Unknown:

Gotta love it. Another address type on the way.  

[01:25:19] Unknown:

The last one, t m.  

[01:25:22] Unknown:

I mean, it's definitely not. Right?  

[01:25:24] Unknown:

Nah. Something else will come down. I'm not convinced we're,   we're close to ossification.   But although it does feel like that with   the struggle, the push and the pull from all the sides,   I'm I'm not convinced that we're close to ossification.  

[01:25:41] Unknown:

I found 6102's   tappered timeline that he wanted me to post, for the Video Freak.   So he's got the speedy trial activation window to August.   Oh, that's great.   This is right. Right?  

[01:26:00] Unknown:

Yeah.   From April 24th   to August 11th   to activate via speedy trial.   And,   Taproot   UASF   BIP 8   block equals true, which is the UASF,   starts at the same point and runs through,   what is that, October 14,   2022?  

[01:26:23] Unknown:

Yeah.   That's what it looks like on this chart. I thought it was earlier than I thought it was, like, gonna be, like, March 2022 or something like that, April 29,   2022,   but I don't know. I'd trust 6102 on that. I mean, look. At the end of the day, like, what? We we expect we expect 90%.   We already have 90% of miners on taprootactivation.com,   if you wanna trust that,   privately telling,   the guy who runs that site that they're going to signal for Taproot. Right? So   really, what happens is we talked about it this whole fucking time, and this is what's nice about speedy trial. It's, like, fuck all these arguments.   You have the speedy trial window, you have a 3 month window, and if the miner's signal 90%, over 90%,   then you don't have to worry about all the other   arguments. Right? Unless you have some kind of, like, hostile UASF,   to to try and veto any kind of change. Right? That's, like, the ultimate check.  



[01:27:22] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:27:25] Unknown:

So we'll probably have Taproot in November, December.  

[01:27:29] Unknown:

Fingers crossed.  

[01:27:32] Unknown:

Okay.   Ben, you've been, like, Taproot   king over here. Like, you love talking about Taproot. Did we cover what you wanna cover here?  

[01:27:41] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I wanna call myself Taproot king, but   it's fine. I've, like, kinda fallen into this role or someone asked me to explain it to them. So I, like, read the bips a few times, and now   now I've become, like, the Twitter guy for Taproot. But, it's been fun. Getting in on all the IRC chats is great, man. Great to see.  

[01:28:00] Unknown:

6102 is asking me why I trust taprootactivation.com.   I do not trust taprootactivation.com.   I said   that, yeah, I thought I made clear that I don't trust it, and I would actually go farther and say that just because miners signal   doesn't mean that they're actually running the client.   They can just lie,   and they could actually signal   that they're different miners   and lie.   This whole idea that we know which block is mined by which miner is a voluntary process where the miner   doxes themselves.   So they could theoretically   and,   you know, fortunately for the Bitcoin network, I've never been a large pool, but if I was a large pool, I'd be fucking around with those numbers all the time. Like, I have to totally fucking pretend that I was other pools.  

So I'm glad we got that out of the way, 6102. Thank you.   When Taproot Queen,   Ben?   That's from Ty.   Why I mention it? 61 61 twos asked me why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because it's a data point. It's a fucking data point. So,   if if if if that's what we have, then you're gonna mention the data point.   Okay. So we'll see if Taproot gets activated now. 6102   has decided that he's he's going to,   single man stop it. The cool thing about Bitcoin, I think, and what makes Bitcoin valuable is that it's hard to fucking change.   So if it's hard to change,   then it means it's hard to change for the negative, and and we should be grateful,   that every time there's a change,   a significant change, that there is opposition,   there's concern,   because things that are easy to change will just always almost always get corrupted, and that's, you know,   basically the exact opposite of what Bitcoin's about.  



[01:29:56] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. We don't want someone just creating a merge request for built in KYC or some garbage like that, and it can throw easily.   You know, it's an adversarial,   minded system, and,   you know, we're grateful for that.  

[01:30:12] Unknown:

Awesome.   So let's talk about discrete log contracts.  

[01:30:17] Unknown:

Yes. This is what I've been waiting for.  

[01:30:20] Unknown:

Ben, I gotta say, really excited about what you and the guys at SureDbits are doing over there. Really excited about it. It's been a ton of fun. We're like, don't know. I like to say we're at, like, the 2018 part of lightning, like, where they were at where, like, we have these really shitty clients that, you know, they they work, but you have to be technically minded to use it. You might have to use command line.   But, it's happening. And, like, you know, we can actually do DLCs and, you know, like,   me and,   my boss, Chris, we did a DLC, like, if Elon showed up to the meet up yes or last week. So,   you know, it works. And,  

[01:30:55] Unknown:

it's happening.  

[01:30:56] Unknown:

He did not. So I got a 100 k stats, luckily. I guess I gotta check the Oracle. Right?   Yeah.  

[01:31:04] Unknown:

So do we wanna do a quick overview here like that? I I think the cool thing about that this this idea is, basically,   you're not solving the trust problem of who reports it, but you're you're solving the fact that who reports it is different than who settles the bet. Right? Like, usually, right now, like, you have a   a casino or something, we'll set a line, and we'll say, I have up on the screen right now,   Evan created this,   DLC about, will Citadel dispatch today on 4/20   2021 exceed 2 and a half hours?   Usually, a betting company would would offer that, and they would take custody of your funds. They would know who made the bet, and they would settle those funds.  

With the with the DLC,   the people who say what happened   versus   who has control of the funds being settled are separate. Would you agree on that premise?  

[01:32:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, that's, like, the whole point where our contract is, like, being executed by ourselves and, like, off chain.   So, like, what we're doing here is, like, you know, we would take Evan's here announcement   and put that into our software, and then   we would just create transactions   that would,   you know, be based off what he's gonna sign. And he'll sign, you know,   yes or no, depending on how long the show goes.   And then with that signature,   we're able to take that and execute our contract.   So Evan now he doesn't even need to know that, I used him or anyone used him,   as well   as we have this, you know, thing where, you know, the the whole entire Bitcoin blockchain is even though we use an oracle. We're just doing, like, you know, funding a multisig   and sending the funds out of the multisig. So it's a really simple setup. It just, requires some option, fancy cryptography.  



[01:32:54] Unknown:

Yeah. So, so last night, I was using your bit of software.   It's a little Java app called Crystal Bull,   and, I thought it was a really smooth   experience   running it for the most part. I got a couple issues with my my Java runtime. But it's like a really nice UI, and you could just type everything out, say what the possible outputs are. It doesn't necessarily have to be a, like, a true or a false. Right? You could have multiple,   you know, outcomes potential outcomes.   And, Yeah. Once I got my announcement hacks, I just posted it into oracles.   Sharedbits.com,   and I got it listed there. Added a little bit of a description.  

You really should flesh that out. We'll try to spell out the terms exactly.   But yeah. But that Oracle, that's separate from, like, an actual bet contract. You still need   to pull it into something like Bitcoin as into some sort   of contract to say, okay. This is Ben's   address to pay out to   if, you know, condition a happened. Here's Evans if the other one happens. Right?  

[01:34:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, Crystal Ball is, like, just the stand alone Oracle software. Like, you know, that software could work if the Bitcoin network disappeared today. It's really just, like, taking messages and signing them.   But then,   in conjunction with the Oracle software, we have, like, our DLC wallet that's built in Bitcoin s where, you know, we can you know, I would paste in your announcement and then, you know, type in, like, you know, a fee rate and   different payouts I want for all of your different outcomes. And then,   and I could, like, set that up at the counterparty. They accept my thing,   my contract, and you're like, okay. I'll take the other side of this bet.  

And then,   you know, once you actually sign your message of what happened, we could close our contract. And,   yeah, that's so like it's like there's, like, 2 completely separate entities here that,   oh, I mean, the the clients need to get the signatures and announcement from the Oracle.   But, otherwise, they're, like, you know, completely independent. Don't really need to talk to each other.  

[01:35:04] Unknown:

So, I mean, we're obviously trusting the Oracle to report it fairly. Right? Like, we have Evan, you know, Evan's supposed to   report whether or not this actually goes over 2 and a half hours.   Mhmm.   The   the holy grail, right, is this idea of multiple oracles. Do you wanna go into that a bit?  

[01:35:25] Unknown:

Yeah. So, you know, right right now, if we were to, like, bet on, you know, the length of the show, I think Evan's the only oracle. So   we have to solely trust him. And, you know, you know, Evan's a cool guy, but, you know, maybe he gets drunk after this and screws it up   and signs the wrong message.   And, you know, you don't maybe or you just don't wanna put your full trust in him. So we could do something where, you know, we could do, like, a 2 of 3 setup where, say, like, I like me, Matt, and Evan all do, an oracle for how long this show goes. And then you could set up a contract that says, like, you know, if 2 of 3 of them have the same answer, then we'll execute.   If not, then, you know, then we'll, you know, we'll   do a refund or something. So that way, you know, if Evan does go get drunk and, you know, he signs the wrong message,   well, then we can,   still execute and, you know, then we and then we also have, like, this cryptographic signature from Evan saying he lied. So he could say, like, hey. Don't use Evan as an oracle. He he lied. And so it gives you that nice thing where, like, you're not solely relying on a single counterparty,   but you can still execute your contracts. And,   you know, you're really you're not, like, removing trust, but you're distributing it. And it should make it a lot harder. Because now, like, say for betting, like, $1,000,000   and Matt's like, okay. I'm just gonna go bribe Evan so I can get my contract.  

You know, now you have to bribe all like, 22 of 3 of us. Or, you know, if you have, like, 509, there's even more people to bribe. And,   you know, it makes it harder to do. And,   yeah. And another really nice properties too is, like, the all these oracles don't need to collaborate with each other. They're just gonna post their announcements and post their signatures.   And then, you know, the the users go and just taking that data, and their wallet handles the rest. Or it's like, we don't need to know that each other exists. I'm just gonna sign the message saying this thing's happening.   And, you know, I don't need to know if someone's using me in a one of 1 contract, in a 2 of 3, in a 66 of a 100. It could be whatever. It's just, you know, the Oracle just just does their normal workflow.  



[01:37:21] Unknown:

Cool. So I I take it,   a lot of the trust in Oracle is gonna sort of function to similar systems in the space,   where a lot of it is is reputation based. Right?   And it could   also develop, like, a sort of,   fee market for the oracles too,   in that the oracles can charge,   you know, users for the attestation   hexes,   on their own platform since these attestation hashes, they're not broadcast to, like, a blockchain.   You know, you have to   distribute it somewhere. Like, for example, this is distributed on the shared bit site.  

[01:38:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. We've been looking into different, like, you know, ways to monetize oracles. And, yeah, I think, like, there's a I think there's 2 really good ways you could do this. One is like what you said where, you know, I just, like, pay, like, say, like, a 100 SaaS group 100 SaaS for a lightning invoice, and, and then you give me the signatures.   So now you're getting a little bit of income, and, you know, you're incentivized more to, like, not screw this up.   Another way that we, seen, that we've came over recently from, like, copying what John Carballa is doing with his podcast,   where he's, like, putting up a bounty basically   to unlock it to   so then, you know, like, once, say, people pay a 100,000 stats, then it distributes the podcast.  

You can do the same thing with, like, your Oracle signatures. You know, like, once enough people pay up, then we're gonna unlock this and,   you know, give give the signatures out. And this provides a really nice mechanism.   I mean, both of these do where since you have, like, it's a market function now, the Oracle is getting signal of, like, what events that, people want as well as, you know, you can create, like, a market for, you know,   how expensive and how trustworthy an oracle would be. So if, you know, if I'm being an oracle and I'm only you know, it only costs a 100 sats to unlock my signatures   versus, like, you know, Kraken or something who costs a 100,000 sats. And they're, you know, a lot you know, if they're a lot more expensive, they might be a lot more trust waiting. You know, if they're getting enough volume to do that, you know, they they might be worth it. And, you know, the market's signaling that, you know, it's worth it to get the Kraken signatures versus Ben signatures. And,   it's really cool that, you know, we're able to figure these things out. And, hopefully, we can start actually building this stuff soon.  



[01:39:35] Unknown:

Oh, man. Exciting stuff.   We got a question asking, are there any other use cases   for DLC other than gambling or betting?  

[01:39:48] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely. I mean, you can do, like, any, like, financial contract on this. So, like, the Atomic Finance guys,   teased this out recently, but they're launching, like, options contract trading. This is all built on top of DLCs.   So then that's gonna be, like, a way for,   like, people to generate, like,   yield, like, you know, with some price risk. But, you know, if you're selling, like, covered calls for, like, a 120 k Bitcoin,   you could, like, get some, mild income in there. But, you know, you know, if price goes up, you're gonna,   you know, you'll sell your Bitcoin on accident or, you know, not not get as much back. But, do you know there's ways to use this where you could do, like, financial contracts.  

But, otherwise, like, you know, like, today,   it's not really a full flush out ecosystem, so we're probably just gonna be, like, gambling and betting initially. But, you know, you can build out, like, basically any contract on top of this. Awesome.  

[01:40:39] Unknown:

And just to tie it back into, you know, high fee environment, to make it clear to everyone,   creating   and,   creating an event and creating an attestation,   none of this is recorded on chain. Is that correct?  

[01:40:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. You can't   tell at all that,   like, which Oracles was used. Like, even the Oracle can't tell that they were used. All they all it looks like is just, like, normal transaction funding a multi sig and then normal transaction spending from the multi sig. So, like, none of this oracle stuff is even relevant to the blockchain. You know? If like I said, like, if Bitcoin just completely disappeared today, the Oracle would do the exact same thing and it still worked. Like,   it's really just, like, about what the users are doing off chain. So, like, and to break it down a little more, like, what you're actually doing is   you're creating, like so, like, you for, like, this for your case where you have, you know, yes or no, does it go over 2 and a half hours?  

Mhmm. If I wanna do a a contract with you, I would create 2 transactions, one for the yes case and one for the no case.   And then, I'll give you signatures   for both that are encrypted,   and they can only be decrypted by the actual Oracle signature.   So   so if you just sign, like, you know, yes or no, whatever one, I'll take that, message, and then now I can use that as a private key or calculate a private key to actually   decrypt the one signature that's valid. Now I have a valid transaction that I can spend on chain.   And, so it's all, like,   all all of your DLC logic is all happening off chain. So no one can tell, like, what your contract is or, you know, what the terms were, what Oracles you're using, or anything about it. All I can see is, you know, funds moved from multisig   to, you know, payout address.  



[01:42:22] Unknown:

Damn. Music to my ears.   Privacy   for the oracles.  

[01:42:29] Unknown:

I saw another question from Anthony,   in the chat asking,   how does Lightning fit into this?  

[01:42:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like, since these are all just, like, cryptographic stuff we're doing off chain, you can do it on literally any Bitcoin construction pretty much as long as signatures and multisig are possible, which should be in any Bitcoin,   you know, platform. So it can be done on Lightning. It can be done on Liquid. It can be done on,   you know, Ruben Thompson's fancy, like, atomic swaps off chain thing.   So, like, anything, like, you know, that has multisig and,   signatures can be done. And it's like since we're getting Xnort, you know, you get that inherently with anything that's using Xnort. So,   it'll be doable on lightning. You know, it might be a while before we can actually build out the proper tooling because we do need, well, we will need some snore on lightning to do it.  

But,   you know, it's coming and, you know, it'll take a bit, but it's possible.  

[01:43:29] Unknown:

Now is that because we need PTLCs,   point in time lock contracts?  

[01:43:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. So you need,   PTLCs   to do it. I mean, you can do it without it, but, like, you know, you could do it, like, within a single channel. Like, if I had a Lightning channel to you, I could we could fill a contract on there.   But, you know, it's not the best you know, it's not really Lightning. Like, first of the Lightning, it's like routing payments across the network. And to do, like, a a contract route across the network, you need PTLCs.   So, because then here are just our points are just tweaked by   the, the Oracle's information. And then we get the signature, we get the correct information to claim the payment.  



[01:44:08] Unknown:

Damn.  

[01:44:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think Let's be honest. Like, the fees right now are 300 sats per byte. Like, am I ever gonna make an on chain transaction ever again? Like, we need it. We need to work on lightning.  

[01:44:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Get get up to speed over there, SureDentz guys. Got it. Wow.  

[01:44:25] Unknown:

Are you up? Why why are you on the mic? On it.   I mean, a lot of it is, like, waiting on the  

[01:44:31] Unknown:

Sorry. A lot of   it? A lot No worries.   While I was waiting on the lightning implementations,   actually, because all these lightning implementations have, like, super heavy assumptions   that everything that is in a lightning channel is an HTLC.   And,   you know, to switch it to PTLCs or even more so to switch it to be anything, it's gonna take a lot of   work. But, you know, it's it's coming, and, eventually, we'll we'll have it. But, you know, there's gonna be a lot of really good work input in by, you know, like, the Lightning Labs team and c lightning team and all those guys.  

[01:45:06] Unknown:

So to the freaks   that are like, I'm just rolling my eyes. I'm glassy eyed. Like, they just keep saying DLCs over and over again. They're saying all these acronyms and shit. I don't understand.   Like, the cold hard truth is   gambling is a massive fucking industry.   The whole Shitcoin industry   sits on top of gambling.   Regardless of Bitcoin, separate from all the stuff we exist in,   gambling is already a massive industry.   DLCs   reduce that trust. It's gonna expand   the the ability for people to access gambling,   whether or not you agree with it morally.   It is going to allow more innovation. I mean, one of the things we talked about earlier was, you know, when you're at Guns and Bitcoin, you felt like the innovation was happening quicker than regulated companies, and that's what always happens. Right? If people are able to innovate on the fringes   without the friction of regulation,   you're gonna get cooler and cooler products. And this is kind of what this is going to do, I think, for gambling, whether that's I think I think the main thing is gonna be sports gambling. I think a big low hanging fruit is gonna be election gambling because in America, that's just straight up illegal, so you can't even have regulated companies offer that.  

But   a lot of times, it gets pigeonholed into gambling, and what people don't realize is it's way bigger than that. And this is something that I fell in love with   as an early new corner,   that didn't know better, that thought Auger was gonna change the world,   is that this idea that if we can create a trust minimized scenario   where people can   essentially bet on what the weather is gonna be in in 3 days,   you are gonna start to get way more accurate predictions than we have today.   Because if you make an inaccurate prediction, you're gonna fucking lose money. And if you make an accurate prediction, you're gonna make money. And you compare that to, like, a weatherman's incentives currently,   and the weatherman's incentives currently are just like clickbait.  

Right? But if the weather management centers are, like, tell you the weather as accurately as possible, it should be better.  

[01:47:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I think one of the great things too is, like, you know, like with Augur, you kinda have to, like, set up, like,   who's gonna be the oracle, and, like, those entities can get, like, regulated versus, like, with this.   You know, they can't tell who's who's using who as an Oracle and, like, you know and Oracle has almost,   like, 0 infrastructure to run. It's very, very simple to do. So, you know, it could be some dude with, like, dial up Internet in Nigeria, and he can still be an oracle just at the same capacity   that Coinbase can. But, you know, if this guy is putting out, like, signatures on things that are happening that Coinbase isn't willing to, you can trade a market and provide value to people that, Coinbase otherwise couldn't.  

So it, like, really pushes that permissionless nature.  

[01:48:01] Unknown:

I mean, Augur tried to, quote, unquote solve the Oracle problem. Well, you guys are just, like, what if we just had, like, multiple trust minimized Oracles, and you just put them together in a fucking threshold.   Right? It's like, it's like my favorite one of my favorite fucking,   I don't know, fables. It's not even a fable. I don't even know. Learning   thing, case studies,   was growing up was, like, the Americans spent all this time trying to create, like, an a pen that worked in anti gravity, and the Russian just sent up a pencil.  

[01:48:34] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like,   we're just, like, kinda like, they tried to, like, you know, yeah, like I said, do this fancy thing where it's like, oh, let's just   do the simple thing of do it off chain and, just use multiple oracles.  

[01:48:48] Unknown:

Send up a fucking pencil.  

[01:48:50] Unknown:

We we get that same thing a lot from, like, the Chainlink guys. We're like, oh, we need this   fancy blockchain that, you know, has all these economic incentives in case the Oracle lies, and,   you know, I wanna strike them if they lie, but, you know, we have to then build the system where the richest guy might be able to change the actual outcome of what the oracle does. And, you know, it it it creates just, like, all these games versus, like, DLCs is, like, just have the user pick the oracles they trust. And, it's just, like, keep it simple, keep it stupid. Like, you know, use articles you want and, execute your contract however you want. Like, you don't need to build all these fancy systems that have blockchains and stuff.  

[01:49:32] Unknown:

100%.   So discrete log contracts. Do you think,   do should we talk about anything else in this subject? Or  

[01:49:44] Unknown:

I mean,   so we should have a client out soon ish for people to actually try out. This American Huddl, Peter McCormick bet, like, put a fire on their ass to actually get something useful   for people to use.   So, I've like, I've been doing GUI work basically this entire week and, and then, like, cleaning up some stuff in the back end to make it more user friendly. So, hopefully,   like, sometime at, like, maybe we can get next month. We'll have something that people can actually download and use. So if you guys actually wanna use this stuff, it'll actually be actionable   if you wanna pay on chain fees.  



[01:50:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we need to get this shit on lightning. Otherwise, no one's gonna fucking use it. But, I I do appreciate you guys getting client out because, I mean, I do kinda feel like a lot of this is just   us just talking about it over and over again. It's just, like, it's not accessible. Right? Like, at the end of the day, like, I was, like, so upset, and this is not against you guys. I mean, because I think you guys have actually been moving pretty fast.   But, like, there was no easy way to bet on the election   this cycle   with Bitcoin.  

I mean, in, like, a trust minimized way. Right? And I just I feel like that should just have been a thing. Like, that should just have been a very low hanging fruit thing.   So, yeah. I mean, I'm looking forward to, like, more accessible options for people,   in terms of of that. And it's kinda funny coming from the guy who's talking about, you know,   being conservative and dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin.  

[01:51:12] Unknown:

We all know you're a gambler. Gambling's  

[01:51:15] Unknown:

fun. I would have not have discovered Bitcoin if it wasn't for gambling, but what what   what got me on Bitcoin was fucking Black Tuesday where they took out all the gambling sites by going for their funding methods.   And I was like,   fuck. Like, if this if this thing just does US gambling, it's worth something.   That value prop was immediately clear to me, and then I figured out the rest afterwards.   Just like a a fun little factoid, and, by the way, cheers to all the ride or dies that are still here with us live 2 hours in.   Like, this is where the fun part happens live,   so I appreciate you guys being here. Just a little factoid, I mean, this show was almost called the Discrete Log.  

I own the domains.   So,   I thought that would have been a fun name, but it was a little bit too insular, so I didn't go with it.   That's a that's a good one name. It's clever. Right? But the problem is is, like, how do you spell discreet? Everyone spells it wrong with log. So do you spell it, like,   discreet as in discretion?   And I have both, and I didn't know which to do, so I just didn't do either.   And that's where that's where we stand.   So   great conversation so far, guys.   We have a freak in the chat, and the chat has run away from me, so I don't remember who it is. So I apologize to you, freak,   asking   about we're gonna go back to transaction fees because fuck it.  

An empty block was mined while all these transaction fees   are just super expensive. Why did that happen? Why is that okay? Why shouldn't we be freaking out about it?  

[01:52:56] Unknown:

Generally, empty blocks are mined, like   like, seconds after,   another block was previously mined.   And, generally, this is because, like, the,   like, the mining software hasn't   fully, like, caught up and found all the   transactions that was included in the block.   So it's it's still, like you know, it's gonna use those couple seconds to continue mining on an empty block just so it's not wasting,   time. So, like, generally, that's where they accidentally mine a or not accidentally, but they'll mine a, you know, an empty block just because they they have, like, a couple seconds to mine on an empty block, and they'd rather waste  

[01:53:32] Unknown:

it running on empty block than, you know, not mine at all. They're not really wasting money. Right? Because they still have the block reward.  

[01:53:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe as that goes away, it might be worth to wait. But, I don't think that, you know.  

[01:53:45] Unknown:

Yeah. As the ratio changes. Right? As the ratio shifts, that probably will happen less.   You just kinda have to wait it out. Right?  

[01:53:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely.  

[01:53:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   I mean, we had another freak asking if he should buy today or he should wait till tomorrow.   Like, are we   how how do we how do we feel about that? Are we bullish on the price? I mean, I   if any freaks have been paying attention, I've been kind of outspoken. I'm extremely fucking bullish right now.   Am I am I   am I wrong in that? Or are you guys bullish? Are you guys feeling the FOMO?  

[01:54:29] Unknown:

Or am I just, like, completely on cloud 9 over here? I think we're both very bullish. I think for whoever's asking, you should probably be dollar cost averaging,   you know, know, whatever makes most sense for you daily, weekly, monthly   as you get paid. I don't know.   But, yeah, Ben, where how high do you see this thing going by,   let's say, end of the year?   I love price prediction. I have  

[01:54:54] Unknown:

I have a couple of bets that'll it'll go up to 500 k by end of the year.   You know, it's I'm just betting a stake, but,   I think it happened.  

[01:55:04] Unknown:

I like I like that number. That's, like, that's been my number recently.  

[01:55:09] Unknown:

That's like the way  

[01:55:11] Unknown:

I I'll say my bet,   given it it can still hit 500 k at the end of the cycle, which I think is gonna run into early next year. But I think   end of 2021,   the price is gonna be exactly   $420,000   609   no. 6 wait. Wait. $420,696.15.   That's my prediction.   Wait. What was it?   $420,696.15.  

[01:55:45] Unknown:

By by December 31st?  

[01:55:47] Unknown:

Yep. Correct.  

[01:55:48] Unknown:

Yeah. It seems bearish.  

[01:55:51] Unknown:

It might be. It might be. I honestly  

[01:55:54] Unknown:

Wow. That's a beautiful number. You have the 420 of the 69, and you have the 6.15 now that we had Cortic put it in actual text. Thank you, brother. Yes.  

[01:56:03] Unknown:

I think,   that's the ballpark for what I'm aiming for. I mean, we've got the crazy year. We've got all the momentum behind us. Is that part in the cycle?   And then you got all this crap going on macro wise, like, who how much money has been printed  

[01:56:19] Unknown:

in the last year. It's out of control. So, I mean, like, people ask me. They go, Matt, you know, you try and focus on the technology. You know, you're in it for the tech. You care about sovereignty. You care about privacy. You know? Why are you always talking about Bitcoin price predictions?   And I think in, like, a bull market,   we're getting inundated   by so much fucking noise,   from mostly shit corners, but also from, like, some, you know, charlatan Bitcoiners,   that I think it's imperative on us   that we   that we bring our price predictions   to the fold to just show the kind of urgency. Like, I feel like there's urgency here. I think   I think there's,   like, I'm watching all of these things unfold, and we're about to hit billionaire FOMO. We're about to hit corporate FOMO. We're about to hit government FOMO. Right? And, like, I would like the plebs to have as much as possible, and I don't wanna say told you so   at fucking $700,000,   $800,000.  

I don't wanna say told you so at that point. Like, that's not satisfying to me. I would like them to get in now, and I just wanna shut the fuck up when we hit that those prices. Right?  

[01:57:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I'd rather you stack, like, it's gonna be 500 k by end of the year than,   you don't like, you stack, like, you know, maybe your actual prediction is a 100 k by end of year and, you know, maybe you won't stack as much by then. You know? Give out the most bullish number because, you know, it's going to infinity  

[01:57:46] Unknown:

by, eventually. So as long as you can now. If if you're in this game, you should be in the game at least 4 years, at least 8 years, whatever,   probably longer. So   whatever you're doing short term shouldn't really matter as much. So just, you know, accumulate as much as you can responsibly,   as quickly as possible.  

[01:58:08] Unknown:

So   100% cosign that one. I'll tell you, I do have I did not stack hard enough.   I I   I should have stacked harder. The the timeline was shorter than I realized,   and this is coming from a perm bull.   So,   it is what it is. Keep stacking. I'm just fucking stacking as hard as possible right now, and I do really I really do think, like, it's just I mean, if if you just   if you think that things can't change quickly in a major way,   where the fuck were you for the last year?   Like, fucking, our whole world changed on us,   and it happened very fucking quickly, gradually then suddenly, right, as our as our boy, Parker says.  

So, I mean, before we end this this this great discussion, I mean, I really wanna talk about privacy in a high fee environment.   You know, I've been   a big advocate of of Bitcoin users taking back their privacy.   One thing that I haven't heard yet from the compliance pros, but they really dropped the ball on this. And I'm only mentioning it now because we're 2 hours in, so you know they didn't make it this far.  

[01:59:30] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:59:31] Unknown:

Is Oh, the good stuff. Right? Is is the high fee environment.   Right? High fees,   BlockFi users unaffected.   They still get their 6%.   So   where where do we stand in terms of if this is   if this is the new normal, if the new normal is over 50 sats per byte for the next year and a half,   which I think is, like, a relatively conservative   ish estimate, 50 sats per byte. People would die for 50 Sats per byte right now.   Where do we see privacy in that kind of environment?  

[02:00:12] Unknown:

I mean, I know, I used to have a bunch of stuff going through join market and, like, the like, once the mempool stopped clearing, all the liquidity just dried up. And,   so I know it like, you know, joint market sucks now. There's, like, nowhere to generate fees.   And,   I'm looking at Wasabi right now. There's 20 registered peers for the next,   next coin join. So it's like, you know, all these coin join stuff, like, you know, it it's really taken a hit with all the, the   It's expensive and spot.   Yeah. And, like, I mean, the   the, the   coordinator fees are already expensive. And now this is, you know, just adding on in the, you know   I I hope we figure out other ways to   to do Bitcoin privately in a more efficient way, but, yeah,   it kinda sucks right now.  



[02:01:04] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's not great for,   these sort of things.   I don't really know what the solution is gonna be long term. Is people do are people just gonna mix during the bare   fee cycles   or whatnot? It seems like part of the solution will be some of these privacy tools being developed on 2nd layers.   You know,   Lightning already has some properties to make it more private than on chain, at least.   How do we take that to the next level?   Then, you know, Matt, I think you were sort of alluding to this on Twitter. Like,   what if some sort of coin join comes to l two on liquid,   and what does that look like?  

That would be interesting too, but you also need to be,   cautious of, the peg ins and peg outs both on lightning and on liquid as data can be revealed there. So it's not really a super straightforward thing   unless you're at least on those layers.  

[02:02:03] Unknown:

The concern there is timing analysis. Right?  

[02:02:08] Unknown:

Yeah. By and large is timing analysis. I would say that's first and foremost, but I'm sure there's some other data that gets leaked in the pegs.  

[02:02:15] Unknown:

I think things like pay   pay join, like, really shine in these moments where, like, you know, it's like, I'm already making a payment to, like, this PTC pay server,   but now I'm just doing it in a private way where, you know, we're mixing funds and, like, hiding the amount we're actually sending.   So, like, things like that, like, you know, you're already been making a transaction. You're not, like, doing actual transactions to add privacy.   So, like, stuff like that aids in a lot where, you know, you're you're gonna do a transaction in any way, so we may as well add some privacy to it. So, hopefully, those certainly implemented more, like or just invented where we have, like, ways to do,   like, private transactions. We're doing a transaction anyways instead of, like, having to do extra transactions to add privacy to your stack.  



[02:02:59] Unknown:

Right. Because   yeah. But but pay join is is you're just making you're you're making your regular transaction anyway,   and you break a heuristic. But with CoinJoin, you're you're already making extra transactions.   I just I just feel like   I   like, right now, I'm not making any on chain transactions, period.   I just won't do it.   I'm gonna I'm waiting and seeing. But maybe I get my hand forced if the fee environment continues. Right? So maybe that maybe that dynamic changes. Maybe this is because it's, like, a sudden type of thing.   I do think lightning will help a lot.  

To   to Evan's point,   I really feel like what we need is,   and and this is why I mentioned it with Liquid,   is, first of all, with Liquid,   you know, you you have worse trust assumptions. Right? Like, you're trusting the federation to a degree, and I and we should let's dive into Liquid a little bit. You're trusting the federation to a degree.   It's almost like a quasi custodial, but it's custodial in a multisig environment.   There's some questions there about when it drops down to a 2 of 3 that's just controlled by Blockstream, where then it's just custodial in a regular environment. Mhmm.   But   the on chain fee burden is is way easier to conceptualize than a Lightning situation. Because with Lightning,   you have all these channels, you're managing these different channels, and you don't know if they're gonna close on you or not. Right? And this is what we talked about earlier with 6102, right, where there's some level of trust. Does that channel partner close on you in the worst possible fucking time?  

The with with Liquid, it's like you only pay that on chain fee when you swap back, and you pick when you swap back.   So   my biggest concern is   users that have large amounts   of   of UTXOs,   right, that that need consolidating in a relatively private way. And that's not a very ease it's not an easy thing to do.   There's there's no real easy way to do that.   Some people will claim that Wabi Sabi, the upcoming Wasabi 2.0, will   will solve that use case. I'll believe it when I see it. I commend them for working on it.   But in my mind, like, if they you had some kind of client that just   randomly   pegged into liquid and then shuffled forever until you stopped it,   could kind of end up in a situation where you're able to but is that, like, just too complicated? Is that just too difficult? Is is that just   I don't know.  

What are your guys thoughts in here?  

[02:05:47] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's just, like, a lot of complexities there and, like, you know,   none of the stuff is implemented, so it's gonna be a while before it actually comes out.   And,   yeah. I mean, like, being able to, like, use liquid to mix   would be, like, awesome. But also, it's like,   you know, how many people are actually using liquid? You know, if you're the one guy that's mix on liquid, you're not really getting privacy.   So you   you need, like, to, like, build up, you know, another, and then reset over, you know, over there. And   so, yeah, I think it would be awesome if we actually implement all this stuff. But,   you know, there's not really a lot of incentives   to   to do it yet just because, like, no one really uses liquid, so you're not there's no crowd to hide among.  

But, you know, if a bunch of exchanges start implementing liquid to save on fees, which, you know, they might actually do right now with all this,   you know, stuff going on, maybe they will, but, you know,   hopefully soon.  

[02:06:45] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, pretty much no one's using liquid right now.  

[02:06:49] Unknown:

Nope. Rookie numbers, we gotta pump them up. But you can apply now.  

[02:06:54] Unknown:

Oh, sorry.  

[02:06:55] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we've you got under  

[02:06:57] Unknown:

70,000,000 on lightning network too. Right now in liquid, you get 0.1 sat per   byte. So, like, if this fee bump doesn't do it, what fucking does it?   I mean, we'll see. I mean, not we don't have that many exchanges supporting it. I'm not trying to, like   guys, I I'm a fucking hyperbole. Like, I think, like, Bitcoin pumps like fucking crazy.   I just,   you know, as as a as a sovereign user, I just wonder how that affects me and how we how we work from here, right, like, in this kind of environment. That's all.   Well,   I love you both.  

I mean, do you do either of you guys I don't wanna extend this longer than it than it needs to be extended. I mean, I think this has been a great conversation. Do either of you guys have, you know,   any last things you wanna talk about before we wrap this thing up?  

[02:07:59] Unknown:

I wanted to talk more to Evan about ossification because he still thinks Yes. He's he thinks,   we're not gonna ossify after Taproot,   and I think we might.  

[02:08:09] Unknown:

So the only chain that is fully ossified so far is Dogecoin, and it's pumping like fuck. So,   do we   do we   if is Bitcoin gonna ossify after Taproot?   Is that okay?   Do we want   more development?   Is this Bitcoin gonna survive? Let's talk about this. Okay. So  

[02:08:31] Unknown:

first of all,   has Dogecoin   really ossified? I mean, as it stands right now, there's no activities. Probably hasn't gone to upgrades since, what, 2014   or something, 2016?  

[02:08:43] Unknown:

Literally the definition of ossification. Like, there's no no one's fucking working on it. But there's a possibility  

[02:08:50] Unknown:

that, you know, let's say,   more institutions   Right. Or whatever,   more basketball teams are using it for merge. Like,   is there anything really stopping the developers from getting it rolling again and adding SegWid and adding Taproot, etcetera, etcetera?  

[02:09:07] Unknown:

I mean, I don't I don't think anyone's actually there's no proper Doze corners out there. Like, there's no one running a Dogecoin node and, like, giving a shit. I I I know. Actually, that is been miserable. I had to  

[02:09:19] Unknown:

sync up a Dogecoin node for a friend who had some bags he had to offload.   And, man, you can't even do it   practically without using, like, a torrent that gets you  

[02:09:30] Unknown:

the majority of the blockchain and just getting, like, the last 2 weeks. It's It's a broken chain. They're all on Robinhood and, like, Binance, and they're keeping on exchange. I mean, there's another aspect there, by the way. Like, I think Litecoin might be fucked because they're merge mined, and no one's really talking about   that. But I you know,   we can continue on the ossification.  

[02:09:49] Unknown:

Most coins that are proof of work that aren't Bitcoin are fucked, irregardless.  

[02:09:56] Unknown:

True.   So let's talk about ossification.  

[02:10:00] Unknown:

So, Ben, what what do we need to get in before you'd be happy with everything ossifying?  

[02:10:05] Unknown:

What is ossification?   Well, let's well, for the freaks real quick, ossification is when nothing changes. We're done. The the protocol's done. We're good. Never change again.   Hit it, Ben. Yeah.  

[02:10:18] Unknown:

I think,   we definitely want Taproot. We definitely want,   Sigash, AnyProvout.   Yes. So let us do fancy things like l 2 and make lightning a lot better. Hell, yes. We want we want,   aggregate signatures   so we can have coin joins be cheaper than regular transactions.   I'll check template verify would be cool. I don't think that's a must have, but it would make things like vaults   a lot easier to do.   Otherwise, I don't know. I think, like, just getting,   signature aggregation and   any prevail would be monumentous.  

[02:11:02] Unknown:

Hell, yeah. Now cross input signature aggregation, do you think we're gonna ever get that?   And,   if it does come to fruition and we have a good solution for it that people agree on, do you think there will be pushback   from any major institutions because of the privacy enhancements it,   sort of enables?  

[02:11:21] Unknown:

People, I mean, people say this about Taproot, and it's, like, not true at all. I don't I don't think people would say it about that. Like,   I don't know. I get it would add privacy enhancements. It's also you could just say, like,   it makes   transactions cheaper. Like, that's why we're doing it. You know? Like,   it's really not like making transactions more private. It's just changing the incentives to do   larger transact   yeah. It's like to do larger transactions which, you know, coin joints are.   So,   I don't know. I mean,   and even if they do wanna try and stop it, like, you know, they tried that with Segway and didn't do too well. So,   you know, good luck.  



[02:12:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you hear a lot   from camps that are, like, saying, okay. Bitcoin's been taken over by corporations,   and because of this real privacy enhancements cannot come to the train.   And, I think that's a complete fiction.   And I think that we're seeing this play out with Taproot, and I think   something similar can play out with,   cross input signature aggregation.   And, I think once we get those two things in, you know, we're talking about a whole different ballgame.   You know, why why wouldn't you come and join us? It's gonna be cheaper.  

[02:12:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So, Evan, do you think Tapiri is the last soft fork? Because, like, the way I see it is, like,   you know, everyone agrees, like or, like basically, like, 99.99% of people are, like, down with Taproot and want it. It's just the activation method that people are, like, arguing over.   So it's like,   do we have   ossification just because of activation methods, or   are we are we gonna are we, like, you know, maybe and actually doing, like, say, cache ID prove out and, like,   are we gonna you know, we'll still figure it out just because everyone wants this thing and the activation method, you know, isn't   a permanent change to the protocol. It's just, like, you know, while we're signaling for activation.  

So I think, like, we still could, you know, move on from this, but I think you're saying otherwise, at least, at the bar.  

[02:13:29] Unknown:

No. I think I think that   we've sort of proven that   this is a blockchain for the people and, you know, the people who use it.   Yeah. I mean,   big features like that, there's I think there's always gonna be enough people fighting for and and championing and and trying to figure out.   It's it's gonna be with, like,   more minute upgrades that see more pushback. It's like, okay. Do we really need this, or are the gains really,   that much of a difference maker? And and I don't think you'd say the same about Taproot or   signature aggregation. I I think those are are really   game changers for lack of a different phrase.  



[02:14:22] Unknown:

Do you   is is ossification   even possible for something that is actually used?  

[02:14:33] Unknown:

See, that's the thing. Like, I also foresee that Bitcoin   can be something where, okay, the upgrades or changes, they really slow down. But   if someone comes along   with a,   you know, great upgrade or or a great discovery in terms of cryptography or whatnot,   people are gonna still want that to go in as long as, like you said, people are using it. And it's not a ghost fucking train like Dogecoin is.  

[02:15:00] Unknown:

Yeah. No one uses Dogecoin. So so the   my my basis of   of my so called Bitcoin maximalism. Right? So so where does my conviction come from that I   am so bullish on Bitcoin?   A lot of it comes from   the Bitcoin Cash War,   Segway 2x war of 2017.   Right?   And   I feel like a lot of people took the wrong thing away from it because it was such a crappy fork.   You know, both Segwit two x, you know, run by Garzik, off by one error,   you know, and and Bitcoin Cash, you know, you had the the Bitmain guys and Raja Vere funding it. Like, you didn't have any really quality   developers involved in those projects.  

In a worst case scenario   where,   let's say, the shit corners were   close to being right. Right? And you have a chain or some kind of new technology   that is,   just a way better money than Bitcoin. Right? Mhmm.   A hard fork to Bitcoin   that   adds that benefit   and keeps the current ledger at the tip,   I think, would have more value than that competing   ledger   because I think the Bitcoin ledger itself I think the actual UTXO set at, like, consensus tip   has a tremendous amount of value that is undercounted.   What are your thoughts on that?  

[02:16:43] Unknown:

I kinda disagree. Like, I think you have to soft fuck into Bitcoin or figure out a way to, like like, Bitcoin has to actually stop for you to be able to do that. Because, like, I, like   I mean, this is kind of a bad example, but, like, BCash Tech, you know, had the same starting UTXO set, but, like, no one valued that. So, like But it was a piece of shit.   Yeah. But,   like, Bitcoin has to be, like, actually failed for us to, like, switch over,   and I don't really see how that happened. Like, at the end, you could just soft fork a fix to almost anything.  

[02:17:16] Unknown:

My point is is, like,   that hard fork mechanism,   especially if you stay on   the the same algo.   Right?   It's a very it's like a it's an a very interesting   free market upgrade mechanism.   Yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. I just think And I I wonder if we're I wonder if we're blinded by the fact that   the previous attempts have just been so shitty.   Right? Like, we've had, like, Bitcoin Gold and, like, Bitcoin Cash and, like, Bitcoin Diamond. Like, they're all garbage. They all have some elements of, like, premines and airdrops and fucking   Yeah. No one's no one's fucked up difficulties   that, like, basically created premines.  



[02:18:03] Unknown:

I mean, I guess we would we'd actually will need to do one because of the,   the block time stamp will   overflow in 2106.   So unless we figure out how to soft fork it fixed, which no one has come up within 12 years, we will have to do a hard fork there.   So maybe   yeah, I guess you are right.  

[02:18:25] Unknown:

I just I don't think that's a negative. Like, I think I think my point is   is   I think my point is I know my point is is that if if a critical mass of demand,   you know, wants something,   like, it'll fucking happen. And, like, can we measure that massive demand? No. It's, like, almost impossible to measure ahead of time.   But afterwards, it's it's kind of very clear to measure.   And it but it only happens when, like, the fire is so hot that, like, you really fucking need it. You're not gonna these these are not the kind of changes that happen preemptively.  

[02:19:05] Unknown:

Yeah. That's true.   You know, as we go on   forward, most more of the changes will be because of the push comes to shove out of necessity.  

[02:19:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think Bitcoin will still ossify eventually. Like, you know,   TCPIP,   like, that is fully ossified. Like, you know, I p v I or IPV 6 came out in, like, late nineties.   20 years later, we still only have, like, 10 or 20 percent adoption.   Yeah. Jay Maurice just said the same thing in the chat. Like, it's gonna take a while for you know, it's gonna happen. But, you know, eventually, it's just, like,   everyone's just using   the stuff, and there's no reason to upgrade because, you know, we've added all the important things. There's no, like, huge increases at, like, things like Taproot and, you know,   you know, Stikash on your pre balcony. It's an ad. So it just you know, people just get complacent with their software and, let it keep going.  



[02:20:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I,   to me, Bitcoin is, you know, is this living organism, and I,   I just I just find it hard to believe I just find it hard to believe that the money of the world forever,   is just gonna stop changing.   But if it does, I'm fine with that too, but I just I my guess is it doesn't, and my guess is as long as you have a stake in the ledger, you're fine. Because whenever   these forks happen,   you you have both. You have both sides of of that fork.   And I think that to me, that's the coolest part. To me, the coolest part was that Be Cash happened,   and and if you just were in a coma, you had no idea. You were unaffected. Right?  

And I think that's undercounted. Like, I think people don't appreciate   the hardcores don't appreciate how cool that is.   That,   you know, I mean, anyone can fork Bitcoin tomorrow.   If I wanted to fork Bitcoin tomorrow with, like, a trustworthy team,   I could do it, and the majority of the market is gonna say you're fucking full of shit, and they're not gonna value it, and they're just gonna dump my side   of the fork if there's a market for it. Right? But anyone can fucking do it. So if there's a fucking demand for it, then someone's gonna fucking do it. And it's hard to imagine   a situation where where you don't have that kind of demand at some point in the future for some kind of upgrade.  



[02:21:40] Unknown:

So then, like, what do you think is different between Bitcoin and the Internet protocol that will allow it to   continue making changes.  

[02:21:49] Unknown:

The difference between the Internet protocol and Bitcoin is that with Bitcoin, I get both sides of the fork. I have, like, fucking   there's, like, incentives.   Right? There's, like, an, proper incentive structure there. Like, you have skin in the game automatically, but also, like, you can ignore it and just be have the just as much skin in the game, it'd be fine.   I think there's something there.   I don't know.   I haven't talked about this really since 2017,   but that's this is really where my Bitcoin maximalism comes from, is that I I I truly think that in a critical mass situation, if there's some kind of   technology that we don't know right now, right, and it just comes out in the future,   that we can just take the Bitcoin ledger,   We can fork it. We can fork our ledger on top of whatever their fucking technology is. We can start with our ledger balances,   and that fucking chain or whatever it is will have more value than whatever the competing thing is.  

It's like our ultimate,   defense strategy.  

[02:23:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Who knows what will happen when we get to that point?   We have side chains and BIP 300, 301.   Things are gonna get crazy.   I mean, don't Can't can't even, like,   you know, fathom what what things are gonna look like  

[02:23:22] Unknown:

then. Right? Like, I mean, what? We're gonna we're saying we're ossifying now in the year 2021  

[02:23:27] Unknown:

or the year 2022. Like, who the fuck do we think we are? Like, are we being why I'm saying that? I don't I don't think we're even close. Like, maybe things will slow down here and there, but,   you know, there's still a lot of unknowns out there. How can you say the   you know,  

[02:23:45] Unknown:

that confidently?   And who died and said ossification is the best part? Like, what what if we're just so we're so   hard to change? Is that good that should be good enough. Right? Like, why do you need a full ossification? Why do you need a fix key? Oh, what,  

[02:24:01] Unknown:

you know, bug might be in the code? What edge case we haven't tested for is in there?   Where   there's probably gonna be a ton of situations that come up at different points during the life   lifespan of Bitcoin that, you know, minor tweaks need to be made like that. So to say, like, oh, okay. We lock it in like this forever.   Well, that's not exactly how this decentralized   thing works out. You know?  

[02:24:26] Unknown:

If we have No. I think, like, ostrication's like,   this script.   There's a lag. I'm sorry. I think, like, ossification's like a descriptive thing, like a prescriptive   where,   you know, you're like you're like it's like, oh, we haven't had a change in 10 years. I guess we've ossified you. It's not gonna be, like, TAF is activated, you know, tomorrow, then we go, like, alright. Today is, ossification where no more changes. This is gonna be like a result of shoot for. Like,  

[02:24:52] Unknown:

you know, it it's I see where people like the idea of certainty, certainly,   with, you know, Bitcoin supply schedule. That's the best thing. The certainty that Bitcoin gives us. But as far as   it relates to authentication, it's like that that shouldn't be the goal. You know? Like Yeah. It's something of stuff that makes this thing better for everyone.  

[02:25:12] Unknown:

Yeah. It should just be a result of it getting too big and, like, you know, people can't coordinate on it to make changes anymore. Like, it shouldn't be   a, oh, just someone to raise a flag. No more changes.  

[02:25:24] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a silly thing to be excited about, in my opinion.  

[02:25:30] Unknown:

I guess I guess what I'm trying to say is, like,   like, if we live in a world where we have, like,   30   attempted hard forks and they all trend to 0, and then, like, the 31st was needed and doesn't trend to 0 and replaces the main chain, like, I'm cool with that.   Like, that that's close enough to ossification   for me.   Like, it's,   that's how Bitcoin upgrades in, like, the most dirty fucking way possible, but it's   decentralized, and that's what's cool about it.   Yeah.  

[02:26:01] Unknown:

It's incredible. There's nothing like   and, you know, none of these jokers and   spots to to, you know, however, 100 of thousands of shit coins there are now   can even hold a candle to it.  

[02:26:19] Unknown:

I love you both.   This has been a great conversation.   To the freaks, go go follow both these boys.   They will be back on the show at Evan Kaludis,   and at Ben the Carmen.   Final thoughts, I guess, to either of you guys?  

[02:26:40] Unknown:

I thought you're racing to get it done before 6 29, so, Evan would sign  

[02:26:44] Unknown:

a different message. On Twitter, we're saying from the start no. The end of the countdown to the start. We're pretty tight right now. We'd have to to do a, instant replay at the end of the show to   and we need Greeks and Citadel Builders. I will sign it. I will sign  

[02:27:03] Unknown:

it. I mean, I'm pretty sure you guys are just you know, you're you're not talking as much as you would be otherwise because you're trying to juice this.  

[02:27:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. Like,   Which way did Evan bet and how much? So, you know, point shaving is what they call it. Right?  

[02:27:23] Unknown:

I I have I have I guess I have one more question.   Are both of you guys coming to Bitcoin Miami, Bitcoin 2021?   Yeah.  

[02:27:35] Unknown:

Hell, yeah. It's gonna be such a great time. We're gonna have so much fun.   Fuck. Yes.  

[02:27:41] Unknown:

To the observant freaks, they might have noticed me wearing a new Citadel hat.   I will be bringing a bunch of them to Miami if you want one. Wait. Is that I I don't see your picture. Yeah. Your video is not on.   Oh, yeah. I mean, you you guys don't see it right now, but, I I was teasing it last week.   Let's see. And some freaks some freaks picked up on it. They realized that it exists. It it does exist, and I will be bringing them to Miami. I don't want your I don't want your fucking mailing addresses. So it will have it will have to happen in person. Lightning only too, I assume. Yeah. Lightning you can pay me in cash, and I'll just flip that into Bitcoin if I need to. But,   yeah, I've, Lightning preferred.  

Yeah. He'll accept the on chain transaction to write. He's just not gonna send them. Oh, I have one more question, actually, before we leave since you guys didn't have final thoughts, so I'm just gonna do it myself.   There was some talk about spooks   on Twitter.  

[02:28:47] Unknown:

Oh, at the conference?  

[02:28:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you you mentioned I think you mentioned that you saw some spooks at GMB,   Guns of Bitcoin.   I think I've always said personally, you know, like, Bitcoiners should be aware, like, there's spooks among us.   I got accused of being a spook, which I appreciate. You know, Slayer heroes, don't trust me. I don't want you to trust me.   What I am concerned about a bit is,   we're talking about open source code here.   I think we're talking about code above we're talking about code and ideas above people, I think.   And I have been noticing, like, this rush   recently   to, basically, label people you dislike for other reasons as spooks, and I think it's a little bit intellectually lazy.  

I don't like it. I don't like it. It feels like cancel culture to me.   There are definitely spooks among us. I might be a spook. I am not saying otherwise.   Evan, you know, very well might be a spook. He's one of my good friends. You know, that would be unfortunate.   Yes. I think that people you don't expect to be spooks are the most likely to be spooks,   But I also, at the same time, don't like this idea of, like, a mob   blindly just going spook   to shut up someone they dislike. So do you guys have any feelings about this?  

[02:30:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's been kinda weird on Twitter. Like, people just throw you off spook, like, randomly. It came it came out of nowhere, but,   yeah, I feel like you should be innocent until   proven guilty. And,   I don't know. I feel like most people are,   generally good Bitcoiners. I mean, you should keep your guard up just in case, but,   I mean, I don't think any of you 2 are a spook. I'll give you that.   Why?  

[02:30:42] Unknown:

Listen. You you should be operating   under the assumption that   everyone's a spook anyway. Like, why would you be,   talking about things that are sensitive that you wouldn't want,   of a bad knowing in a public space? You know? Like, when you're going to any of these conferences,   you gotta be selective about, you know, what you're talking about. You don't wanna just spill the beans because you're,   amongst a bunch of Bitcoiners, and   you feel comfortable, that's that's foolish.  

[02:31:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Don't go to, like, the conference. Be like, hi. I'm, you know, John Smith. I have 7 Bitcoin, and,   you know, I I started all the cold cards. Like Yeah. Yeah. Like, like crypto and shit, like, stuff like that. Yeah. But, like, you know, you can   you need to, like, be conscious of that. But, like, you know, don't go   and don't also ask those people those questions. Like, at BitDev last week, some dude asked me how much Bitcoin I have. I was like, dude, don't don't you never ask a Bitcoiner that. And, like Yeah. Don't don't be stupid. You know that guy's not a spook, though. Just rude in general even if you're not a Bitcoiner. Like, you go and asking your buddies how much they have in their bank account or how much they have in stocks, like, no. That's not  

[02:31:52] Unknown:

thing to ask for some reason. Right? I assume, like, spook training, like, they tell you. Like, don't ask how much Bitcoin they own, you know. Yeah. But maybe that's what the spoop wants to do, I think. Right. They're updating their guide as they listen to us.  

[02:32:06] Unknown:

But, yeah, I'm gonna just say that the guy front row at Guns and Bitcoin and, like,   the olive drab,   whatever hat,   That guy was totally the same.   Oh, man. But,   irregardless,   I I hope if you guys were there, you've just followed those rules.   Just didn't go and spill your stash info or anything sensitive to people who didn't need to know it. It's just   how you should   treat your conversation with anyone in the space. You know? Why does someone have to know something,   sensitive like that   unless they're, you know, your business partner or something.  

[02:32:46] Unknown:

Yeah. And don't do anything incriminating with someone you don't, like, really trust. Like, you know, don't go don't go to a strip club with some random guy who just Yo. Strip clubs aren't crimes.  

[02:32:56] Unknown:

They're not get, blackmailed. Right?  

[02:33:00] Unknown:

Or, you know, lots of people end up doing crimes before or after the strip club.  

[02:33:08] Unknown:

Oh, man.   Well, I'm glad we had this nice productive spoof conversation,   to push this right to the limit of this, DLC. So now you have to actually go back and check.   I love both of you guys.   Follow Ben at Ben Decarmin on Twitter.   Follow Evan Kaludis at Evan Kaludis on Twitter. Both of them will be back on CIDIL Dispatch.   Ben is working with SureDbits.   You can look them up. Fantastic company. Evan Kaludis is the project lead at Zeus,   the one of the best lightning wallets, if not the best lightning wallet   on mobile to connect back to your node.  

[02:33:48] Unknown:

And free This is close to iOS app store, like, in the next week or 2, it's gonna be on there. So no more test flight. Get excited.  

[02:33:57] Unknown:

How how does that work? How does the TestFlight versus   real App Store work? Do you guys, like, prove yourself on TestFlight?  

[02:34:03] Unknown:

Since we're a company in cryptocurrency   or finance,   you can't release an app onto the main app store without,   one, an LLC   that has the same or, you know, corporation that has the same name as the app that you're publishing. Right? So if I want to name my company, like, Olympus or something, I couldn't publish the Zeus LN app. Stupid rule. And then you gotta go, and you gotta get a business ID from this other,   company that Apple works with. It's called the DUNS number, and that's what just came in. So,   we're gonna change our account type and then submit the version,   the latest version, version 0.5.1.  

We're gonna submit that to the App Store. So within 2 weeks, 2 weeks in close, we'll be happy. Real lesson is the real lesson is is if  

[02:34:53] Unknown:

if if you're using iOS, like, come on, guys. Like, we're just, like, 1 week or 2 weeks away at any given time for just, like, not having any Bitcoin while it's available.   Like, what are you even fucking doing? I I mean, there's a setting  

[02:35:08] Unknown:

on iOS that's on by default   that will delete your app   from your phone if it gets pulled from the iOS App Store. You gotta go in and tell your phone not to do that shit   for you not to be, like, 1984   out of your peep all your users' apps. Like, that's ridiculous.  

[02:35:27] Unknown:

I've been using, Kallik's Android recently up from Graphene.   Nice. It. Big fan.  

[02:35:35] Unknown:

So what what are the main differences? Does it have Google Play services built in? It has Micro g, which is, like, open source Google Play services.  

[02:35:45] Unknown:

The the the the high arching the, you know, the high level the high level comment I would make   is that   you can   it it works better as, like, a daily driver, but I don't think it's as secure as something like Graphene.   So so, like, my my photos are fantastic. I'm able to use,   you know, a mainstream app, like a Lyft or Uber or something if I need to,   because of the micro g.   It's still de Googled, but, like, it it feels like and the performance is better. It's a way faster phone. It feels like something it feels like a flagship. Like, I'm using Calix on Pixel 5.   It feels like I'm using close to a flagship phone,   which my tech geek in me enjoys.  

Mhmm.   But at the same time, like,   Graphene is obviously more secure. I mean,   like, there's there's a bunch of things they did to harden it, which is what makes it less performant than Kallix.   But also on top of it, like, doesn't sign their releases, for instance, which is something that   me as a honest pleb can   immediately notice is is, like, bad practice, and they they said they're gonna start doing that. Right?   But,   on Graphy, not only do they sign the releases, they have a separate app that you can install on a separate Android phone, and you can scan a QR code to verify. It's the coolest fucking process.   They call it the auditor app.  

So they're on different levels. They're doing different things. It's apples and oranges. But regardless,   I know I can side load Zeus.   Tell you. Apple users can't. Right?  

[02:37:28] Unknown:

Nope. You are at the discretion   of Apple.   Yeah. It's it's really just as fortunate as that.   You know, both Google and Apple have their walled gardens. It's just that Apple's is ridiculous.   And, I'm just I'm just hoping for, you know, their desktop users and macOS users, like, that sort of   lock signing doesn't come   to the desktop all the way. So we'll see how that shakes out.  

[02:37:55] Unknown:

Fuck yes.   Ben, I'm gonna come visit you in Austin, I think, next month for the next bit devs. I'm looking forward to that.  

[02:38:03] Unknown:

Parker is saying, next month's gonna be bigger. He's gonna get Sailor and Ross Stevens here. So,  

[02:38:09] Unknown:

that'd be a good one. Hey, Ben. You know who we didn't talk about?  

[02:38:13] Unknown:

Gus'.  

[02:38:14] Unknown:

Gus'. You gotta take Matt to Gus', please. What's Gus'? Let's talk about it.   Where are they from? It's like Memphis or Tennessee. It's like hot,   fried chicken. It's it's incredible.   I I went twice. I I took my girlfriend after,   Ben had taken a bunch of  

[02:38:33] Unknown:

She came down with you?  

[02:38:35] Unknown:

Yeah. She met us,   like, halfway through the trip. So really during the cold days, so that that wasn't  

[02:38:43] Unknown:

great. We just had a a great time with everyone. It's amazing. Me and Evan me and Evan are such brothers that we both we both know our ladies' names, and we will not dox them on air. That's awesome that you brought her.  

[02:38:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. So,   yeah, we need to give her   a a NIM name or something.  

[02:39:00] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   something.   Cheers to that, guys. Thank you for joining us. Thank you to all the freaks that joined us live or die   ride or die joined us in the live chat.   Thanks to all the freaks that joined us   via the audio streams.   I'm actually you just mentioned Michael Sailor. I'm doing Sailor Academy tomorrow with, Stefan,   and,   hopefully, Michael Sailor himself is gonna join, so I'm looking forward to that, his free educational course. We have RHR on Thursday, and, of course,   we have another   Cielo Dispatch on Bitcoin Tuesday of next week. I think next week, we're gonna have Keto and NVK   and maybe a special guest appearance by Wiz because of these transaction fees. So I'm really looking forward to that. Yes.  

Cheers, guys.   Love you all.   Love you, freaks.   Thanks for joining us.   Got 2 special announcements here   after the music   is done.   The first thing is it appears my dog   consumed a whole half a pie pizza   while I was recording.   It might be blamed on me.   It is yet to be seen. We will go over that on rabbit hole recap on Thursday.   I only had one slice, I swear,   right before we recorded.   The second thing is we have our boy daddy Warbits,   freaked till the end, ride or die. She's been in almost every single live chat,   this whole fucking time.   Is donated 2 ticks tickets   to Bitcoin 2021,   which are gonna be quite valuable,   and   only 2 freaks are gonna get it. It's 2 general admission tickets.  

You either have to   post this on Twitter. 1 person posts this on Twitter, 1 person's post this in the Sphinx tribe.   The first one in each side gets it,   and it's   Bitcoin is designed to pump forever Matt. If you post that without any typos   and you're the first one on Twitter or you're the first one in the Sphinx tribe, civil dispatch Sphinx tribe, not the TFTC Sphinx tribe,   Then you get the general admission ticket. Shout out to Daddy Warbits for being so fucking cool about that. I love all you freaks. Thank you for joining us for another Silla dispatch. You guys make it worth it. I will see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap, and I will see you next week on Tuesday for the next Zillow Dispatch.   Love all y'all. Stay humble. Stack stats.