Calle is the creator and lead maintainer of the Cashu open source protocol. Cashu enables users to easily use bitcoin in a private, offline, and programmable way. Calle is also the maintainer of Bitchat android, a cross platform meshnet app that enables users to chat and send bitcoin without an internet connection.
Calle on Nostr: https://primal.net/calle
Calle on X: https://x.com/callebtc
Bitchat: https://bitchat.free/
Cashu: https://cashu.space/
AOS: https://andotherstuff.org/
EPISODE: 171
BLOCK: 907832
PRICE: 847 sats per dollar
(00:00:00) Bloomberg Intro
(00:02:47) Happy Bitcoin Wednesday
(00:06:42) Bitchat: Concept and Development
(00:15:25) Mesh Networks
(00:23:01) Real-World Applications of Mesh Networks
(00:29:39) Challenges and Vulnerabilities of Mesh Networks
(00:37:14) Adoption Challenges for Mesh Technology
(00:44:07) Integrating Cashu with Bitchat
(00:52:50) Offline Payments and Privacy with Cashu
(01:06:14) Vibe Coding and Development Process
(01:25:48) Future of Bitchat and Open Source Funding
(01:34:44) Sustainability in Open Source Projects
(01:47:00) Final Thoughts and Call to Action
Video: https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqs2evgxy64mhhr3mw7ywtattah0sw3c8dv2hg7tjdryfnc9xghc54gr90q3n
more info on the show: https://citadeldispatch.com
learn more about me: https://odell.xyz
[00:00:01]
Unknown:
What's the end game for you? Is it just to buy as much Bitcoin as you can and hold it for as long as possible and never sell it?
[00:00:07] Unknown:
That's one of the goals. Yes. But I think what makes us different than a lot of these other businesses is we plan to build Bitcoin products as well. I mean, the founding group is Tether and myself. I founded in Lead Strike as one of the bigger Bitcoin financial services firms in the world. Tether, obviously, is one of the most impressive companies in the history of humanity, but specifically in building massive cash flows within the space. So Paolo and I, before we were CEOs, we were engineers. We built a lot of products. And so we plan to not only acquire as much Bitcoin as possible, raising capital and all sorts of deep capital pools, but also build products, build technology, build tools. I think when people eventually think of '21, it's are they a competitor to Coinbase? Are they competitor to strategy? For us, why not both? We think we have that potential. Do you envision a future where Bitcoin treasury companies such as strategy, Mara,
[00:00:57] Unknown:
and you guys end up buying so much Bitcoin that there really isn't actually much left out there on the open market for people to trade? After all, it is a fixed number of Bitcoin, so no more will be created once it reaches that number. Right. You know what's fascinating about the asset, and it's not intuitive because it's so rare, is that to your point, it is definitively scarce.
[00:01:19] Unknown:
So if everyone in the world wanted an iPhone, Apple could make more. If everyone in the world wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, McDonald's could make more. The fact that Bitcoin cannot increase its supply means the new supply comes from the market. If you want more Bitcoin, you don't go to the Bitcoin factory to get one. You have to go up in price. Is there enough Bitcoin for me at a 120,000? No. Okay. $130,140, 150. So I tell you what, there's always Bitcoin available. Just depends on what you're willing to pay for it. And so what I think will happen is this price will continue to discover higher because Bitcoin is the scarcest thing. It's inelastic to the amount of demand that searches for it. So the amount of buying power that we're seeing from the capital markets, from the ETFs, and potentially from nation states like The United States, I think they'll find the supply they're looking for. They're just gonna have to go get it at a higher price.
[00:02:48] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was Jack Mallers of strike and twenty one talking about how Bitcoin is gonna go much higher, which I tend to agree with. As always, huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin. Dispatch is ad free, sponsor free, purely supported by viewers like you with Bitcoin donations. All relevant links are at citadeldispatch.com. We're on YouTube.
We're on Twitch. We're on every podcast app. We stream to x through the ten thirty one funds x account as well since my partner at ten thirty one, Jonathan, blue checked himself for that privilege. Top two supporters of last week was through the fountain podcast apps. We have Poopsicle with a thousand sats, said, Sedillo dispatch is my go to podcast when sitting on the toilet, and we had ride or die freak, Mav twenty one zapped us on the Nostra, on the Nostra video, zapped us a thousand sats. You can find all the videos of dispatch signed and hashed, zappable at primal.net/citadel.
With all that said, we have our good friend, returned guest, absolute legend, newly discovered Twitter influencer, Cali. How's it going?
[00:04:31] Calle:
Hey, man. How's it going? Thanks for that kind intro. I'm BlueTech now.
[00:04:37] ODELL:
You're BlueTech now. Congratulations. How does it feel?
[00:04:41] Calle:
It feels like, you know, it feels like something you wanna, have a shower after. I didn't choose my blue check. I think Twitter has some kind of weird algorithm, so they put a blue check on you even if you don't want one. I always pride myself that I didn't have one because I don't wanna play pay to play games. And you can't remove it. Here we are. No. Can't remove it. But I can write not a can write long posts now, which means I can send e cash over over Twitter.
[00:05:09] ODELL:
It's not, Yeah. I mean, obviously, it was a a bit of a troll. You're most well known for, being the creator and lead maintainer of Cashew and now being one of the co maintainers of BitChat, which is what we'll be talking about. But just on the x thing for a moment, it's actually not a weird algo. It the incentives are actually very clear. If you have more than 2,500 bluechecks following you, they automatically give you a blue check because they want every high value account to have a blue check to sell more blue checks to the low value accounts. It's bad, man.
It's it's what what they did to me right before I deleted,
[00:05:51] Calle:
which I guess I thought you were still on Twitter.
[00:05:53] ODELL:
It was, like, four hundred and seventy days ago or something like that. Maybe four ninety.
[00:06:01] Calle:
I thought you were still on Twitter.
[00:06:03] ODELL:
No. See, I'm there in spirit because I have Jack. I have Mallers, who's a way better spokesperson to the normie crowd and the suit crowd. He's acts absolutely been crushing it on the Mallers Show and CNBC and Bloomberg. And then I have you there who's a way better spokesperson for privacy and freedom money than I could ever be. And as long as I can support both of you from behind the scenes, then I accomplish all my goals in terms of the movement without actually having to expose myself there.
[00:06:36] Calle:
Very appreciated. Thank you for the kind words, and don't even think about coaching.
[00:06:43] ODELL:
You can carry the torch. Let's start with BitChat because I feel like BitChat's having its absolute moment. Dorsey, I guess, Vibe coded it over a weekend, released it out onto the Internet. The test flight immediately got filled up because he released an iPhone only test flight, and the App Store approval was taking a while. I think TestFlight maxes out at about 10,000 people. Then you vibe coded an Android version, native Android version, which then you released. And since then, now it's on the actual iOS app store. So you can get it on both iOS and Android. But the point is is, like, I haven't seen the the crazy organic viral hype around it was was pretty impressive. I mean, obviously, Dorsey has one of the largest x accounts in the world, but, I don't think anyone was expecting that kind of excitement.
[00:07:43] Calle:
Yeah. It it caught on pretty quickly. I'm I'm not sure if Jack expected, that kind of resonance as well. And, I mean, for those who don't know, maybe we should start with the basics. So, BitChat is a Bluetooth based mesh chat app. It allows you to chat with anyone who's close by, close enough to be in your Bluetooth range that is, let's say, like, 30 meters or so. But it also builds a mesh with anyone around you. So it's it's similar to, like, find my with iPhones, for example, or when you lose your AirPods or something, they can talk, to your phone even if you're far away. And they do that by talking to other iPhones that are close by and then get through the Internet.
BitChat allows you to build mesh networks of people around you to build, like, a larger mesh so you can chat with, like, people that are further away than what your iPhone can reach, and those are individual meshes. So this concept is is pretty cool because it doesn't use Internet. It is kind of very different from all the other chat or messaging apps that people are used to, and I think that might also be the reason why so many people found it interesting. Also for completeness, it should be said that this is not the first mesh based or Bluetooth based chat app out there. There have been a couple before.
Some some listeners might remember Firechat. This has been maybe ten years ago or something where they also tried to do something similar, built an app, that works over mesh, and it's been, like, even in the the Hong Kong protests that were, you know, before COVID and, like, couple years before COVID when they started, those were very important tools for the people on the street, on the ground because they needed a way to talk to each other without using the Internet. So all in all, it's a very different kind of chat app, and that might also explain why so many people found it interesting. I guess most people that heard of it, of BitChat, didn't know of their predecessors.
And yeah. So I think now Jack has released it on the iOS App Store a year a a day ago or so. It's already in the top 100 free apps in The US. It has surpassed, even signal as in the free social app category. It's kind of, like, just trending upwards or as, Jack Mallers would say, it discovers higher places in the App Store ranking. So super exciting. And that's for the, for the iPhone for the iPhone version, that that Jack built. I saw that. I found it very interesting too. So I saw it the same, like, the on the same day as anyone else. I didn't know that he was working on this. And when I saw it, I really liked it a lot. I also liked Firechat and all the predecessors before things like Meshtastic, for example. I'm just a big fan of alternative infrastructure and things to circumvent ISPs and build, like, alternative, in quotation marks, like, Internet applications, although this is not Internet, obviously.
So I found this super interesting. I looked at it, saw it. Like, I I got into the into the test flight on my on my iPhone and on my Mac. I'm playing around with it, but I'm not, like, primarily an iOS person. So I thought, well, if he can do it, I can probably do it too. And sat down, took most like, all of his codes, fed it into an LLM, tried to analyze it, came up with an implementation plan, and then just wiped my wiped my way through it. And it probably took me, like, half a day or so to get a working version that could send and receive messages with the iOS version, which is insane. Like, I'm very happy to talk about the development cycle and the way we built this app.
Jack built the iOS version. I built the Android version because it's it's a completely different way of building stuff. It's it's been incredible also for me as a seasoned developer. It's been an insane experience to be able to see that that you can just really do things in a in an extremely fast and efficient way these days using AI if you're willing to basically, like, go all in and fight with with the agent.
[00:12:27] ODELL:
Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack there. First off, so just, like, a quick overview because there is because it's hit, the mainstream hype cycle, I think there's a lot of just general confusion over what mesh is, and I think you did a good explanation. But just to sum it up for the Americans listening, Like, Bluetooth has about a 100 foot range. Right? So Cali said meters. That's what the rest of the world uses. Bluetooth has a 100 foot range. Everyone you're communicating doesn't have to be in the 100 foot range. Out of the the most simple explanation, imagine I'm standing somewhere. I got bitch out open.
Callie's a 100 feet away from me, and then Bob is a 100 feet away from Callie. I can still communicate to Bob because it relays through Callie who's, you know, equidistant between us. But you can imagine, like, a web kind of developing among people where it could then expand out, particularly in places like cities, high density areas, festivals, sporting events, places that historically well, sporting events and festivals historically have had issues with cell connection and Wi Fi connection and stuff like that, but they have high density people. Disaster situations, you might not have Internet.
In situations where government is trying to oppress people, one of the first things they do nowadays is cut the Internet. We saw Iran recently do this, while the the war was going on with Israel and and Trump was bombing them. They cut the Internet so that their people couldn't communicate. In those types of situation, mesh can be very helpful. Now in your example, you used, find my the find my network on Apple as an example. I think another example would be, like, their AirDrop feature where you can send files and stuff between people, which was actually also used in China. But then after pressure from the Chinese government, they Apple heavily limited it globally.
But the the interesting aspect of the Find My thing is it does have, like, this automatic seamless Internet bridge where if I walk past your your stolen or lost, AirPods and I'm connected to the Internet, it will then ping the Internet with the location. So it uses near term communication like Bluetooth, in proximity, but then it bridges out to the Internet. Is there a play I mean, obviously, in good times, I think or in, really, in any type of situation, if one person's in the mesh, ideally, if if one person in the mesh has the ability to connect to the Internet, that could be quite powerful for everyone that is that is using that mesh to then be able to communicate with the outside world. Is that one of the plans in place, for this going forward?
[00:15:31] Calle:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So as you said, right now, it's useful for for high density situations where you have a bunch of people around you and you wanna communicate. This This can also be, by the way, devices that don't have Internet by themselves. For example, a computer without a SIM card inside. Right? So you can also use it on your on your desktop computer or your laptop to talk to other laptops even if you don't have an Internet connection. So as you said, like, you made a couple of really good examples of where where this might be useful, in, like, a sports stadium.
Could be a a flight or a kind of disaster situation. But yeah. So since you'll always be limited to be able to reach people in your range or a couple hops away from your range because of this, mesh and the the size of the mesh. I think, like, you'll probably be able to reach a couple 100, people, maybe a few thousand. I it's hard to say because we haven't been able to really stress test it with a bunch of people yet. You gotta test it in the sports stadium. That's like the Yeah. We're we're we're definitely gonna test it in the next BTC plus plus, conference that is that is approaching soon. So, like, a combinations of, like, congregations of, many Bitcoiners is is a great way to test it. By the way, just like a little segue, I I will come to your question. But, like, thinking of of Bitcoin Core, so, a a phone's a phone's Bluetooth chip is typically limited by, by, I think, to, around eight connections per chip. So at least on Android, it's, it's around eight connections.
And with eight connections, you'll never be able to reach everyone. Right? And, coincidentally, Bitcoin d itself is also limited to eight inbound connections. So with with eight inbound connections, it is kind of possible to reach the entire world because if, if the connectivity is is heterogeneous enough, then, the the network that forms around people is dense enough to reach almost anyone. Eight or seven hops is also that, that famous number of, of hop hops of separation between any two people in the world if you follow friend networks, established before social social networks. So even in the in the nineties, you were able to reach anyone from anyone to anyone sending, let's say, like a letter, a written letter, over seven hops on average. So that number is itself okay.
The number of connections doesn't need to be drastically higher to get a big reach. But, for Bluetooth, you're mainly limited by the range of the individual connection, and it's, it's basic you can't assume that you'll be able to cover the entire planet if you don't add, like, a bunch of new hardware and then also improve routing a lot. So routing is also one of the big problems that we can talk about. Now coming to your question, obviously, that you you can imagine this as individual, like, islands of meshes. That could be your neighborhood and my neighborhood, and we're very far away, but we're both in a dense populated area, so we can talk to our neighbors. But how do I now talk to you over a bit chat? And then we need something else that connects our meshes. And there are multiple ideas of people that, like, that proposed, different ways of doing that already.
So, for example, one guy, I think, two days ago or something popped up, he's built kind of a, amplifier for this whole thing, such like a dedicated device that can connect to all the, BitChat devices around you, but but can also make one connection very far away to another mesh. And if there's one other guy with a similar device, it could also be Meshtastic, by the way. It's a different mesh network that has long range connections. Then you can imagine situations where you can connect different meshes still without using the Internet. So there are ways to do that, and there are multiple people working on multiple different ways of trying that out. And we'll we'll see how that goes, and I'm I'm optimistic that it can be useful.
Now, obviously, the best network, the biggest network that we have is the Internet. So, yes, can we use the Internet? Can we can we do the same thing as your iPhone does to your AirPods, for example? Your AirPods talk to the Internet using one single hop to to to a nearby iPhone, and that iPhone then transmits the location to the Apple network. And, so the answer there is, yes. We can do that. And the plan actually is to use Nasr for it. So what we wanna do is have individual meshes, that can be located in different places. We still have to think about how to how to identify these meshes, whether a mesh needs to be, like, its own dedicated thing. Does it need an ID? Does a mesh need a location?
But if if we can address a mesh, then we can also build connections between meshes. Right now, what, I think is being worked on is a direct connection between two people. So if I meet you, let's say, offline, in a in a sports stadium and we connect over, our BigChat apps, and then I I, press on the favorite button, like, when we chat, there's a encrypted chat between us, that has great privacy. But I can press, like, a favorite button, and I can remember your your public key key, essentially. And then after we met, we can go separate ways, and you can go home, I can go home. And as long as, like, there is Internet on our on both of our phones and, the app detects that we're not close by, then it will use Nasr to talk to the other guy. So that will be a person to person connection going over Nasr and, will be very different from other Nasr reps, and it will, like, not be connected to your social identity and so on at least for now.
But it can use this existing Internet network to connect, these two people. And now a natural extension of this, as you already hinted, is now I wanna like, let's say my friend who, doesn't have Internet wants to talk to you, and I do have Internet, and you're far away. So can my friend now use my phone's Internet to talk to you similar to the Find My network? And I think, like, that's that's gonna also be a thing where inside your mesh, you're just gonna look for one of the devices that has Internet and then use that Internet connection to, for example, make, establish a communication channel with someone else over Nasr.
So, yeah, long winded but, yeah, detailed, way of saying, yes. It's it's a plan. We wanna extend the range of these, meshes basically to infinity as long as there is an Internet connection as well.
[00:22:59] ODELL:
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, if if I wanna if if we want a real example of this here is, we recently had that hurricane or, I guess, maybe it was a tropical storm that hit North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee, and created a ton of devastation, knocked out Internet for everybody. And, I mean, they're still trying to recover now. I it was almost a year ago. Maybe it was, like, in September ish, when it happened, so a little bit less than a year ago. But at the time, there was actually a lot of work on the ground to bring meshtastic devices in, to connect the local communities to each other to coordinate, disaster relief. But, also, at the same time, there was people bringing in STARLINKS, and it was really hard to get Starlinks.
Like, you know, the the best time to own a Starlink is before you need it, not when the disaster is going on. But in this in this scheme, if you could imagine a situation where one person in the community had a Starlink, and then a thousand people in the community had BitChat, and there was some kind of way and so so that one person with Starlink had BitChat and was connected to his own Starlink Wi Fi, then all of a sudden that entire mesh would have access to the rest of the world without, everyone there needing a Starlink.
[00:24:32] Calle:
Yeah. That's right. And especially for those kind of situations, like, you, even, like, the tiniest low bandwidth connection is super helpful. Like, in a disastrous situation, you don't wanna browse the web and download a YouTube video. You wanna ask, hey. Where where are the supplies? Or where is help needed? Like, those are short messages can go a long way in really bad situations. And that's what that's what people try to, reestablish in most cases. Right? So mesh meshtastic, for example, which is a great project. We also will limit you in the amount of data that you can transmit, but even a short text message itself can be extremely useful in that in that situation. But I wanna say, like, one more thing on on top, which is not only the utility of this whole, scheme in in a situation where where you have to depend on it, but also just, being able to build infrastructure that is not controlled by anyone. So this is kind of a cypherpunk principle way of thinking about it, is is the the Internet stack that we have. And in in last year's, especially with Bitcoin and things like Tor, or alternative, like, ways of communicating such as Meshtastic.
We we have kind of a very good stack at this point where we can have, like, money that is not controlled by anyone, and we can have all these services. We have Nasr, which is key like, public key infrastructure where we can find each other and communicate with each other. The Achilles heel of the entire Internet stack is still the hardware level, like the the cables and the ISPs that control access to the Internet. Or for your phone, this is your SIM card provider, so your Internet provider. And these days, it's almost impossible to get access to the Internet without identifying. So the these networks are so monopolized, and it's so hard to become a new player in the Internet ISP game that we have converged to sit like, small amount small number of very big players and who can just dictate all the rules. And sometimes they even don't want to be as cruel as they need to be, but also, like, the government and the rules around just providing communication infrastructure forces them to basically KYC anyone who wants to use the Internet. Right? So in many parts of the world, you cannot get a SIM card anymore without registering and identifying yourself.
And, and that, you know, that problem just propagates upwards. So it makes me it makes me really furious to think about this, but, like, so much of the Internet infrastructure that we have today, even an email address with Gmail, for example. Like, try to make an email address with Gmail without a phone number. It's basically impossible these days. So your phone number is tied to your identity, and there is no way out. You you have, like, almost no way to get a SIM card, and some people know how to do it, but most people don't. There's basically no way to get access to Internet without identifying. So just working on the infrastructure level is something extremely important. I think very, very hard problem to solve, and BitChat is not going to be the answer of, like, getting rid of the Internet infrastructure there. But at least having, like, a low bandwidth version of something that we can use without permission, without being able to, you know, shut it down remotely and so on is extremely important.
So, that's why I'm a big fan of of these know, alternative projects as well. We mentioned Meshtastic, Firechat, and there are others as well. And, that's why it makes sense to work on something like BigChat because, we you cannot turn it off. You don't need access to, a, like, antenna that is controlled by by T Mobile or something. It's just literally the Bluetooth chip in your phone, that you own and the Bluetooth chip of your friend over there that they own, and that's it. We can communicate without having to ask for permission. That being said, I am aware that Bluetooth itself is not the most resilient infrastructure there is. This is just something inherent inherent to radio communication itself.
Radio communication is not, is not, you know, invincible. Let's say you're in a protest situation where you're we can imagine the Hong Kong protests before, COVID, where you'll be able to talk to people around you, and the privacy will also be good enough so you can, you can do that safely. But if as long you know, as soon as there is someone with a big blaster that just just blasts electromagnetic, waves in the Bluetooth range, you can disrupt those channels also very easily with, a lot of power. And, you know, governments know how to do that, and, they can also do the same also with your mobile connection and your your just your phone ISP, basically.
So those jammers will still be able to turn off these networks, and it's very hard to defend against those because that's just how radio works and, you know, the the stronger your devices, the more it will kind of take away from everyone else trying to, to communicate on the same bandwidth. So, yeah, those are kind of a couple of the, properties of Bluetooth. But, maybe we'll find more ways to connect peer to peer in the future, maybe with Wi Fi direct and other technologies that offer similar properties.
[00:30:40] ODELL:
I mean, yeah, talking about the vulnerabilities of current infrastructure and, trying to block access. One of the things I've noticed at both civil dispatch and rabbit hole recap, my two shows that, stream live, to Nasr on ZapStream, is that we get hit with DDoSes every time we go live, which is a nice validation by someone with resources that hates me. But they cannot stop the signal because everything will get published to the podcast apps after the fact, and we are still live on YouTube even though dispatch has shadow been there. So you can just search Siddle dispatch in YouTube if you want to follow the stream there. It looks like ZapStream has just come back online.
Wouldn't be surprised if it goes back offline again. But, yeah, everything gets posted to Nostra afterwards. It's harder to stop that. So you can go to primal.net/citadel or search Citadel dispatch in your favorite Nostra app or your favorite podcast app to see the recordings after the fact. I have a question for you, Kelly. I mean, well, on the protest piece, one of the things we do see is because, cell connections have been the primary means of communication for modern day protests is that they run stingrays, which are basically mobile cell towers and have you connect to them instead of, to a regular cell tower. They can disrupt connections. They can track people that way.
Presumably, if Bluetooth if something like BitChat becomes more and more used, they will actively jam Bluetooth connections. This is to be expected. It's a demand response kind of situation, that maybe they haven't felt the need to do yet. And when I say they, I mean global governments fighting protests. I have a just to pull it back for a second, I mean, I mesh is something for the reasons you highlighted is something that I've been very excited about for a long time. And, there's been a lot of false starts. Right? There was, you know, there was LoRa. There was the closed source proprietary, Gotena.
There was obviously Mechatastic, as you mentioned, Firechat. Is this time different, and why is it different? Like, it it was maybe I was just maybe I'm, like, disenfranchised old old man. But, when I saw a BigChat get released by Dorsey, it was cool. I was like, that's awesome. I'm glad to see, you know, someone more you know, another person more focused on mesh. But then it caught me off guard, the amount of excitement around it, just because of the lack of excitement or the lack of tangible adoption of the other tech that's been out there. Why do you think this time is different?
[00:33:43] Calle:
Well, I mean, it remains to be seen whether this time is different. Right? So, these things, they live off the network effect. So excitement is part of the resilience of these systems because they need to be run by by individuals instead of just hoping that a cell phone provider will, like, put an antenna there and put you online. So, I think the excitement definitely helps just from an infrastructure perspective. But, you know, like, hardware today is definitely different than than ten years ago. The hardware in your phone is kind of incredible at this point, and the distances that your Bluetooth chip can traverse has, you know, gone up many multiple times.
The energy that it uses has gone down many multiple times. So things are just getting better and better, and I I I just expect this to continue to do so. At the same time, you know, I'm I know that, it has been attempted many times before, and I wouldn't call these projects that you mentioned failures. They just maybe never hit, like, a threshold where enough people used used it, so it became useful to people other than, just people wanna play around with it and try it out. And just to be clear, this remains to be seen for BitChat two. But our technology is better, and the the need just keeps going up. So I think with every day that we spend on this earth, we see more and more reasons why we need alternative infrastructure.
And, and I think, like, with things like Nostr, if you combine it with other freedom technologies like Bitcoin, if you send around you know, if you use this infrastructure to send around e cash, which is one of the main reasons why I was, like, excited about it, in the very first beginning. If you you know, we have many more things that we can do with it today than than a couple years ago. So, we'll we'll just have to keep trying it and, like, the because we've, like, the the we might have failed a couple years ago, but in my mind, that's not a reason for, to stop trying to to stop trying to fix, these issues in the future. If if we don't try it, like, we'll definitely never, achieve the goals of this project. So, I don't see, like, any reason to not try it out again.
And, as you said, the alternative is is just centralized Internet ISPs, and those come with so many problems, and no one is really working on improving that. There are a couple of, you know, projects here and there that try to be a better ISP, but, they themselves need to be centralized systems. So decentralized systems are just harder to bootstrap, harder to build, harder to keep alive, but it doesn't mean that they cannot succeed. And we've seen this with Bitcoin. We've seen this with BitTorrent or, Tor. And I hope and I believe that we can also achieve, something in that regard with, Internet or communication infrastructure.
[00:37:15] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, Mesh specifically has an interesting chicken and egg adoption thing, which, I mean, is what we've seen with a lot of the responses by people who download BitChat for the first time. Right? Which is, oh, I downloaded it, and I don't see anybody on it.
[00:37:33] Calle:
Yeah. That's nice.
[00:37:36] ODELL:
Because more so, like, there there's, like, you know yeah. I mean, for more so than other tech. Right? Like, Mesh has this massive adoption hurdle in the beginning, which is what leaves me cautiously optimistic that it hit the ground running with so much hype or so much excitement, that we might be able to get through that adoption hurdle.
[00:37:59] Calle:
Look. Yeah. So, I mean, people need to know about it. So it needs to be, popular in order to work. And the goal right now is not to replace the Internet. Right? It's it is to offer communication to islands of people, and there are many islands out there. So if there's an app that just you can very easily just spin it, open the app, and within two seconds, you're connected to anyone around you. There are many use cases for this. It could be, as you said, it could be a festival. It could be a conference. Right? Sports event.
So many situations where people not not only because they don't have Internet, but because they are not, like, automatically connected to anyone around you. Like, imagine, you're you're on a you're on a Bitcoin conference, and you just wanna send a link to anyone who's in the room. How do you do that? The you know, just announcing your location to use an Internet service for it, one way would be to post a link somewhere and then just project the QR code and hope that people can scan it. Right? So there's, like, roundabout ways of going, trying to solve this issue.
But, really, limiting communication to a geolocation to a spatial extent basically requires you to dox your location to an Internet service today. So I could imagine that people will come up with situations or basically have things in mind already. It might be your warehouse. It might be your company or something where you don't want to use Internet because you don't want people to make an account and say, hey, app. You know, I'm now in Nashville, and I would like to get all the messages that are addressed to Bitcoin Park or something like that. Right? I don't wanna dox my location that I'm in Bitcoin Park right now. So one of the ways is a mesh.
And there, the the hurdle is way smaller if you just think about small groups and, people around you that you wanna communicate with. And because then you don't have to deal with the adoption thing either. You just have to tell the people around you, download this app. Yeah. You can use it on demand. You can send around a few, messages, share some information, and just close it again. You don't, you you you don't have to be, connected to to the global mesh all the time to make this thing useful. Another thing could be, that you leave it running in the background and you walk around the city or something like that. You you could kind of receive information, also send out information to devices or people around you. I I don't know what kind of use cases that would entail. Some people were joking about, you know, it's the new kind of flirting app for urban, singles or something that you find someone like, you you see someone in the metro and, you wanna talk to them or something like that. Sounds a bit creepy, but, you get the point. Like, you you might be someone who just, like, moves around and is interested in information being shared around you.
And, again, if you wanted to build this on a on the Internet, you would have to, track your location and share your location with the service. And with local connectivity, like with the mesh, you don't have to do that. So, I think there are many ways to make this useful that even us cannot really think about yet. And for now, it's about providing, the ability to do that, and people, like, automatically come up with, interesting use cases for this kind of stuff.
[00:41:32] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, we're already kind of seeing it. So, like, one of my focuses one of my tangential focuses outside of Bitcoin has been developing relationships with local American ranchers and getting good quality meat to feed my family. I think, you know, strong communities support each other and and have each other's back with this kind of thing, and good food is a key aspect of, quality of life, and a flourishing family. And a lot of these ranches right now, they use GMRS radios for kind of a similar purpose. Right? So these are short, you know, five mile line of sight radios. They just wanna communicate among their ranch. Obviously, that requires greater distance than Bluetooth.
But I think you could imagine a situation where since all of this is open source, you have, you know, physical repeaters that you put around a ranch or something, to accomplish that type of use case. And it could actually be more helpful than just pure audio communication, which is what they have to rely on with these short range radios.
[00:42:45] Calle:
Yeah. Definitely. So these bridges, I think, will be super interesting. Like, whatever, whatever the type of bridge will be, and there are different ways to approach this. It could be like a radio bridge, like the one that you mentioned. It could be an Internet bridge that uses Nasr, or, like, it could be also a direct Wi Fi connection from your mesh to another mesh. So, you could imagine a situation where, you know, all the phones around in the in in the ranch, they can actually talk to all the other phones in the other other ranch. Right? So it you you don't have to go to the radio, pick up the microphone, and say, hey. Is anyone listening?
You could just send over a message and wait for a response like we're used to with any chat app, that we already use.
[00:43:36] ODELL:
Yeah. I'm laughing because, the one of the reasons I love that both of my shows are live shows is the live chat and the live trolling that happens. And Scardust Official would like to remind us that GMRS stands for general mobile radio service, and, saying GMRS radios is, something worthy of being trolled about. I, the other aspect here that I think is kinda cool for local communication is when you mix Cashew into it. And so then all of a sudden, not only do you have localized communication, but you have localized commerce. You can imagine something like a farmer's market, for instance, where everyone in the farmer's market is able to communicate with each other and pay each other.
I saw that, you've integrate I believe you've integrated Cashew into the Android version of the app?
[00:44:28] Calle:
Both. I mean, I did on the Android, but we we also integrated in in our team, we also integrated into the iOS one. So we have both ready. Is it in is live in the iOS one right now? No. No. Neither. So, we'll have to work a bit more on the on the BitChat side of things. But as soon as that feels stable enough, then we'll we'll, like, try to push, the wallets on on both sides. So, yeah, this is super interesting. This is also, like, why how it caught my attention primarily because I've been, researching a lot on different ways of paying with Cashew.
And because Cashew use eCash, eCash is a bearer token. You can kind of send it with any communication medium that you can think of. Currently, we're stuck in this, realm of using QR codes for almost all things that we do, whether it's a Bitcoin lightning invoice, whether it's a cashier token that is transmitted via QR code, but also, with fiat payments. Like, if you think of Asia, for example, and for those who have traveled Asia, will know this, that QR codes are everywhere. You walk into a store, they show you a QR code, you are supposed to scan it with your camera. And, you know, QR codes work, but they are super limited in what they can transport.
And, cameras weren't never were made for this. Right? It's kind of a hack, a hack that got stuck with, with us. So, so we're using cameras, super high throughput device with megabits of information per second to transmit, like, a couple bytes of data in form of a QR code. That's what we that's what we're currently doing. So, we also we're also doing similar things for Cashew. So, we've so and and to to keep innovating in that realm, we have been experimenting a lot with NFC, for example. So tap to pay with eCash where you approach one phone to another phone and then send the eCash token directly from, NFC, also uses radio, or electromagnetic waves to send from, one phone to another.
And, that is also limited in throughput, but, most importantly, it is limited by, Apple to be able to do what you wanna do. So we can do tap to pay with e cash already from an Android phone to an Android phone or from a cart to a phone. That is also very cool. But, from Android to iPhone, you won't be able to send e cache in that direction. You can send from iPhone to Android because Android just can, can do more, and it can it can receive, but an iPhone cannot receive on the NFC chip. And so there are many technical limitations if you wanna send around data from phone to phone. So when I heard about, BitChat, I immediately thought about some experiments that we've been, doing before with, cache walls where we wanted to use Bluetooth Low Energy to send eCash from one device to another.
And, that seemed promising because Apple allows you to do as much as you can do also with an Android phone, so that kind of opens up a way to onboard everyone onto this payment system or payment, interaction. And so what I have in mind is, basically, in the future, I hope that you'll be able to walk into a store, and then, you'll, you know, you'll have a $10, receipt or something. The person at the store will enter it in their terminal, and then it'll just pop up on your phone and say you wanna pay $10, you press the button. You don't have to scan a QR code. You don't have to tap anything or but, you'll just get a notification on your device, or you can push the payment from your device to the, to the receiver, and they'll see a notification and can receive the payment. So this is what we had in mind, and we've been re researching it before.
And so when Big Hat came around, we're like, yeah. Fuck. Yeah. This is exactly what we what we need to try this with. So what we did is basically the opposite. Instead of implementing e Bluetooth into a Cashew wallet, we, went the other way and we implemented a Cashew wallet into BitChat. And we did that with, our, library called CDK, which is the Cashew DevKit, which is based on Rust. And it makes it extremely easy to build wallets and implement it into things. So it's a it's a Rust library that does all the Casio stuff for it for you, and it's using the last Rust library. It just allows you to build cacheable. It's extremely easy and super fast. So with this with this library, we we we're still kind of in the process of pushing it out and also putting the word out there because it's so new.
The fact that you can do this is is still super new. But, essentially, it it brought down the IQ requirement for building a Cashew wallet from maybe a 100 of 30 to 70 now. Like, you you can just implement a Cashew wallet within within a couple minutes into your application with that. So that's what we did. We took, BitChat for iOS and BitChat for Android. We took CDK and added, bindings for it for for the programmers who know what this means. For those who don't know what this means, binding's basically like the glue between the library that we're using and the application where we wanna, implement it to.
So we we took the CDK library and just put it into BitChat Android and BitChat iOS, and within couple of hours, we had fully functioning in cash wallets in both of these applications, completely independently, implemented. And that was it. So we had, like, a a little, wallet icon in the BitChat app. When you press it, it just opens a Bitcoin wallet that just looks like an ordinary cash wallet. And, with that wallet, you can charge it with lightning, then you'll have some stats on your BitChat wallet, app. And then you can go in the in the chat. You can either in the in the direct message from me to you or even in the public chat, you can just drop some chats in there. So the interface was, you you would have this typical, like, cyberpunk interface of BitChat. So you write slash pay and then the amount in Satoshis and a comment if you like. You press send, and then it it drops this payment blob in the chat that, you know, pops up everywhere and says, like, there's a 200 satoshi payment for you. And you can press redeem, and it ends up in your in your, cash work that is built in into your into your BitChat app. So this is super cool because, first, e cash is better, so we can use Bluetooth to send it around.
But what's also very cool is that the payer still doesn't require Internet to make that payment. Mind you, the receiver needs Internet in that case because otherwise, you cannot prevent double spending. So one of the parties needs Internet, so you're you're kind of leaving this fully offline realm and require at least one person to have Internet, but the other person can pay without Internet. So this it's like this this shop situation. Walk into a store. You buy a shirt. It's, they say, $20, and you just, like, open your wallet, press a button, $20, just immediately drops into the chat. You don't need to be online. It just happens instantly and always works, and it just the payment is done. So, that's that's where where we're trying to go.
[00:52:15] ODELL:
I mean, what people don't realize with that is that is already the standard with traditional mobile pay payments. Like, if you use Apple Pay, the payer actually does not need to be online. Like, if you're in the developing world, you know, you could be, like, in the middle of the jungle. And if someone has an Apple Pay point of sale, your phone doesn't have to have Internet. You tap you you just tap to pay at that point, and the receiver has Internet and is able to then process the payment and confirm the payment. And that's one of the reasons why Apple Pay works so seamlessly when you use it and there's no lag there.
So that's already the standard. Cashew kind of brings that standard into the bill Bitcoin realm. I have a quick question for you. Just in that one use case where you're, like, dropping it into the local group chat, let's say it's a Bitcoin conference, if you're dropping it into the local group chat, that that becomes like a race condition for who tries to redeem it. It's like whoever gets Internet first. Right?
[00:53:16] Calle:
Exactly. Yeah. It's like leaving, little crumbs of of Satoshis in the in the Bluetooth chat and seeing, like, who who gets it first. But, yeah, as you said, like, the the situation where the payer doesn't have Internet but the receiver has Internet is super common. That's the way how, credit cards work. So just like to add on what you said, that's how Apple Pay works. That's also how Google Pay works, but that's also how credit card tap to pay works. And that's, you know, the the reason why Apple Pay and Google Pay works this way is because of the credit cards. And, like, how a credit card, offline Tap two Pay credit card, or your offline Tap two Pay Apple Pay works is by downloading tokens from the Apple Pay server. So it is a little bit similar to how how it works with eCash, actually.
So you you when your phone is online and you have Apple Pay, your phone goes to Apple Pay server and says, like, I have this credit card company x y z, and I'd like to download, like, 20 offline tokens. And then the Apple Pay or Google Pay server gives you these 20 offline tokens. And then you can walk around in the middle of nowhere and just tap your phone. And the reason why it's instant, as you said, is because your phone doesn't need Internet. Just the receiver needs Internet, which is typically a store owner, so they have an Internet connection often. And you're probably like the, mobile phone user who's, like, in the mall without cell connection, but it still works on your phone. And that's because the token that you received while you had Internet that is on your phone just flows directly from your phone via NFC to the payment terminal, and then the payment terminal takes that token, in in the case of Apple Pay and Google Pay, takes that token and sends sends it off to the Internet and says, like, hey. Am I allowed to you know, is this user legit, and can they make a payment and so on and so forth? And then that executes the payment in the back end on the Internet for you. So for eCash, it kinda works the same way, but for Bitcoin and with privacy. And that's, like, the the critical differentiating factor between these payment systems is we can also have tap to pay or offline payer situations for Bitcoin when we use e cash, but plus insane privacy on top of that. So for Apple Pay and Google Pay, the Internet server needs to know who you are because the token that you sent is not the money.
It is like a access key to your credit card, basically, and that needs to hit the Internet and need to identify you. In the case of eCash, the token itself is the representation of the Satoshi, and then you sent that over to the payment terminal. And the payment terminal does one swap with the ecash mint over the Internet, and the payment is done. And the mint doesn't need to know who you are. The receiver doesn't need to know who you are. In fact, no one can figure out who you are because of the privacy properties of ecash itself. So, I'm super bullish on that use case. It is definitely, like, something that we're going to focus more. We do already focus a lot on this. And the fact that you're offline gives you incredible privacy because your phone doesn't need to go online. You you don't even leave a trace like saying, hey. I turned on my phone or something like that.
Like, you don't need to go online. And it's instant because there is no, you know, I need to connect first and, like, get into my PayPal account and log in and, like, wait for the delay and shit like that. Just send over the money, and you're done with it.
[00:56:50] ODELL:
Yeah. So, first off, huge shout out to SoapMiner who zapped 21,000 sats, has great soap. Nice. And is a good support is a is a legendary support of the show. I appreciate your your support. And we have Pablo, who's a legend himself, building in the Nostra ecosystem, who zapped 21,000 saying, I appreciate you, gents. Thank you guys for supporting the show. It really it it means more than the money. As the support comes in, it's it keeps me going. Yeah. On the cash you piece, I mean, this is where it's like all these Freedom Tech projects are, like, coming together. It's like it all compounds and gets super powerful. The offline component I mean, basically, a Cashew token, you can kinda it's just a long string of text. So however you can transmit a long string of text, you can transmit, a Cashew token.
And, I mean, even in a you could imagine a lot of situations where there's, like, a a limited trust environment, where where people can do commerce where both people are offline. And then at some point in the future, the receiver needs to go on online if he doesn't think the person's gonna scam them, and then redeem it at that point. And, I mean, we're already in like, people don't realize, like, you go and you pay with the credit card, like, that merchant can get charged back, like, thirty days later. And that's a way, you know, less trusted environment or is a high it's you don't you know, you go into, like, a J. Crew or something, that random minimum wage employee, does not even know who you are. But if you're in, like, a farmer's market or something and I'm going there every week and I'm paying someone, like, that farmer doesn't necessarily need to be connected to the Internet for, like, four hours or five hours, and then later, he can connect to the Internet and redeem. And if I scam him, like, he'll never sell me meat again. Yeah. Yeah. Proof of punch. If you're close enough to someone, then,
[00:58:53] Calle:
you you the the probability of of scamming getting scammed goes down a lot. But yeah. So if we start comparing ourselves to the fiat system, like, it's gonna be an easy game because, Nice. Like, you know, these in the fiat system, like, it's it's so fucked. It's we we don't even need to start, but let's do it for fun. So, in the in the fiat game, they achieve most of the security in in quotes, security by, by by basically, denying you access to the hardware itself. So you have kind of like a hardware level, trust system. So, yeah, of course. Like, if we wanna, you know, lower the bar that much, we can definitely do the same as well. So in a credit card, for example, when you tap to pay with the credit card, as you said, you don't know how much that terminal is going to deduct from a credit card. Like, there might be a maximum limit, but, like, is it, like, $2, or is it, like, $25, maybe $200, would depending on what your credit card allows. So you you don't control that. The reason why you, in quotes, trust, the payment is because the terminal itself is like a tested hardware that is built by a company that kind of says, trust me, bro. We built a terminal that doesn't rock your users.
Same for the credit card itself. The credit card itself has this chip on it that everyone knows, like this this golden thingy, and there's a CPU inside there. And, basically, what this credit card kind of assumes is that you won't be able to open it up and just disassemble the thing and and take out, like, these these tokens that I talked about before that someone be will be able to see this. So, like, if you say that, okay. We'll we'll trust the hardware to not allow you to double spend or we'll just trust the hardware to not rock the customer, then, yes, we can do all of those things as well. But, obviously, like, that also means that applicability of these systems is super limited. So you need, like, a certified device to receive, credit card payment or at least, you know this has changed a lot in in recent years, and by now, you can also use, like, an Apple phone for it. Obviously, Apple phone is, like, super, walled garden thing, but there there's much more hardware today that supports this. But in in general generally speaking, if you introduce hardware level, safety, then we can do fully offline transactions as well. It basically just depends on whether your phone will allow you to double spend the token that you just spent or not.
But if you approach this from a fully open source perspective, which we do, then we kind of have to assume that anyone can open up everything, and everything is observable. And you can just, you know, you can take the software, you can change it, and then start messing around with the system. So we, kind of, like, try to find a minimal viable, trustless or least amount of trust system that that still works without knowing your counterparty or without having to, you know, stand across them and being reached of of a punch in case, the punch is needed. Right? So for example, Internet applications where you cannot necessarily just, punch someone in the face when they try to rob you.
[01:02:24] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, this is all it's complete game changer. I mean, I wanna talk about first off, we should have mentioned it earlier, but we didn't. So that's on us. But bid chat is not available in the Play Store. So if you're if you're going to the normal App Store on Google and there is a BitChat listed there, that's not the official distribution of it. It might be a scam.
[01:02:51] Calle:
I can't Don't don't download that. That is, like, a big warning sign, and, like, I this is on me. I've been trying to, like, really wrestling with Google. I haven't been able to put it up myself yet, but I'm working on it. So don't download BitChat from the, Play Store as of July 30, which is today. And, as soon as it hits the Play Store in an official way, then you'll know. But for now, you can go to bitjet.free. That's our domain. That's the official domain. And there you find links and resources for the trust trusted, application where you can find it without being afraid of getting scammed. So for the, iOS version, you can go to the Apple App Store. Just search it on your iPhone and download BitChat.
For Android, don't get it from the Play Store just yet. It's a fake guy who took my application and just uploaded it to Google himself, and it's basically impossible to take it down for me at this point, without kind of like, it's it's it's it's terrible. Let's not even get into it, but, yeah, don't get it from there. Get it from the GitHub, which, you find the link on bitchat.free.
[01:04:03] ODELL:
Or you can get it from, the Zapstore. Right? Zapstore.dev, the the Nasr enabled Android App Store.
[01:04:13] Calle:
Unfortunately, it's not there yet. But it is on my list. It is on my list. It's not on Zapstore. I was joking about this because people keep pushing me to to do it. I am going to do it. Don't worry, guys. I'm going to do it. But there's also f droid, which I also need to do. But, like, It's not an f droid either. One thing f at a time. It is nowhere except on or on GitHub. Don't get it anywhere but on GitHub. Okay. So go to bitchat.free,
[01:04:41] ODELL:
which is a, I mean, a a a a weak, kind of a weak domain name, but bitchat.free, and download the APK, and then you can sideload it onto your Android device by just installing the APK. An APK is like a, an Android application file that you can just install any application. It's one of the best parts about Android. I do think it's funny. I see at bitchat.com, it goes to, the domain owner's tweet about owning bitchat.com. So what he has it redirected to right now, which also, I think, just goes to the unexpected hype and excitement that came out of the project.
I mean, Dorsey clearly did not try and secure a domain name before but that's is what it is. Bitchat.free. What I wanted yeah. See, Pablo's like he didn't get bitched at at. Who has bitched at at? No. I I tried. I tried Pablo. I tried,
[01:05:45] Calle:
the Austrians, which is 80. The Austrians don't let you use the, the domain pitch.something.
[01:05:54] ODELL:
Fair enough. They're very buttoned up over there. It's like, maybe I I try and be a friendly tourist, but, when I was in Austria, I was they really did not they really did not like me, specifically in Vienna. I think they're just still salty about losing World War two.
[01:06:14] Calle:
Absolutely.
[01:06:15] ODELL:
I I, so but what I wanted to talk about, but I just wanted the Android disclosure out there before people go download the wrong app, is for those of us watching, I mean, it's it was quite remarkable that you were able to create a native Android app so quickly. I mean, I thought you might have had advanced notice, but it sounds like you didn't even have advanced notice and you were able to make a native Android app and release it within a matter of of days.
[01:06:44] Calle:
That might be one of the single most powerful things about this vibe coding movement. You wanna talk about that process a little bit? Yeah. Definitely. Let's talk about that because that's one of the biggest learnings that I had, while doing like, working on this except for all the things that I learned about Bluetooth. But yeah. So I I didn't know about this before you. I learned about it at the same time. I just sat down and did it, because I've had quite, some experience with AI, but and using using agents, but I think everyone out there could have done so too, or at least if you know a little bit about programming, then kind of you can do it too. And, so I'll dive a bit into the process and what I learned about it. So first of all, what I what I used for it was mainly goose, by block and cursor.
Mostly goose because it allows you to easily switch between models, and the model that I used heavily was mostly Claude, four and, SONNET four. And, the process of it was basically like downloading, Jack's implementation and then exploring it a bit by hand and then using various LMS to first describe the software to me. So I used something with a large context window. I think it must have been probably Gemini, that I started with. It's to just, you know, explore this huge code base. At that point, it was already a big code base, so it's hard to get an overview. Like, what are the features? Give me a summary of what this thing can do. So I get this response from the bot, and I see, like, okay. This is what it can do and so on. And then from there on, I start acting as a project manager, less than like a coder, but a project manager saying like, okay. Now this is a iOS version of our application, and we wanna launch, like, an Android version of our application. We want it to be a 100% compatible with the iOS version. Now before we start coding, let's start with an implementation plan. Like, as as if you would start planning a project to build an app in a in a company, you do you you usually don't just start building it, but you make a plan of all the individual steps that you need to, scratch off, like, one by one. What is we need first to implement, like, the public chat, and, then we need to implement, like, liking things, and then we need to implement, like, that sidebar and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, you make a list of all the things that need to be done step by step.
And what I also do is, I add I I I tell it I tell them about, like, give me a list of things that need to be done and also, like, what are the requirements in that in each step and what what's kind of, what what, requirements, make that step fulfilled, like, let you fulfill that step. So, I get a long list of things that need to be done in order to port this to Android, and I look at the list. And I take that output from an LM, and I start a new one. And with that LM, I talk to as if it's my developer. And, I take my my implementation plan that I that I planned before and give it to that l m, and I say, no. We're starting now with step one.
You know? Like, step one is build the entire, like, foundation of the app. Create all the directories, create all the folders and, files, and and register the app, create, like, a Android manifest and so on. Like, you have maybe you need to know a little bit about Android before, but to be honest, like, you can probably also do it without knowing anything about Android first. And so that's how you start. You do it step by step. The most important thing is that you have a list of things that you wanna work through because LLMs get lost along the way, and you need some way to bring them back to the task that you wanna, make them work on.
So, that was the process, and I did this for a couple of hours back and forth and back and forth looking at the code sometimes. But most of the time in the beginning, I didn't even really look at the code itself. I'm just, like, you know, looking at the results, whether it compiles or not. And if it doesn't compile, the LAM kinda knows that it made a mistake itself and tries to fix it. So, half a day or so goes by doing that. And then at some point, I had, this this working version with the basic features, like, no no direct messages yet, but, like, the group chat, for example, for Android. And it also started to look quite similar to the iOS app because I also told it, like, make it look exactly the same, use the same color scheme, use the same fonts, and so on to make it look the same.
And, you end up with this basic version, and then from there on, you keep improving it. So you do step by step by step by step. You kind of need to know where you wanna go, but as soon as long as you can express this in a meaningful way, the and most of the time can do the can get the job done. So that's how that's how I built BigChat, in the beginning. That's why it went so so quickly because I was basically just 100% vibes and just observing what the thing is doing and trying to kind of steer it in the correct direction. Now mind you, with every Vibe Coded project that I've done so far, and, I've done many of them, like, in the in the last year, and is what you see is that the proportion of Vibe against manual coding goes down as the project matures. It gets more and more complex.
The LMs tend to make more and more mistake over time, and the context gets larger and larger because the project grows. So things get just get more complicated as you go. So, the the need to intervene, by fixing things by hand just grows over time. One more thing I wanna mention here is noise encryption. So BitChat uses, a pretty nifty, handshake, pattern called noise x x handshake. It gives you forward secrecy, which is basically saying, like, if someone, gets access to your phone today, they cannot read all the messages that you're going to write tomorrow or that you have written yesterday. So kind of, like, make sure that even if you get compromised today, that you have secrecy forward and backwards in time.
And, so that used the noise x x handshake. And that part, for example, was just heavily heavily manual coding. So as soon as you get, like, super advanced and there is not much for, the the LLM to draw on knowledge from the Internet, then you need to go in there and become, like, a coder again instead of being just a project manager. But yeah. So as I said, like, the the amount of work, manual work just goes up usually goes up over time. And especially if you don't, you know, if you if you don't be like, if you aren't careful, especially over time as the project grows, you can also maneuver yourself into a dead end where the project just grows and grows and gets bloated and bloated to a point where it just becomes like a complete mess, and it becomes extremely hard to put it into a state again where where it just, you know, it works again or looks nice again or isn't like a complicated mess with lots of dead code that isn't used and so on. So that is something I think you learn as a Vibe coder as you gain more experience. But, like, the first steps is, like, fully Vibe, fully automated, and that's also something that that's also the reason why anyone can do this, especially me. I'm not a front end developer even. Like, I'm not an Android developer, first of all, but I'm not even a front end developer. I'm usually deep in the trenches in the machine room, like, interacting with, command line interfaces at the best and not really good at, like, moving buttons around and so on and so forth. And I don't even know how that works on Android. At this point, I do know. But before that, I didn't really understand exactly how Android front end development works, especially with Kotlin. So I I learned all of that.
Without knowing you can just do things. That's my message. Like, you can just do things, and today you can do things a lot more than than just a year ago. So that that's that's the process. And a slightly more nerdy take, but I think, even more valuable, lesson that I had there is the following that I wanna share with the listeners, especially the the computer scientists that listen. So, as you, said, as you know, there are two big set apps. There's iOS version, by Jack. It is written in Swift. That is the native language for iOS, for iPhones.
And there's the Android version that is written in Kotlin. That is the native programming language for Android. So these are two completely separate projects, that have completely different programming languages. And, you know, I'm not a Kotlin dev, and I'm, like, I'm just gonna assume that Jack is also not a Swift dev, but we were both able to build in programming languages that we're not very familiar with. Obviously, we both know how to program. So, you can just you can use a programming language that you've never used before by relying on AI.
And now here comes the nifty and super interesting part, and I think that's going to change kind of like be an industry changing thing, is usually when you start making an app and you want it to be available on iOS and on Android at the same time, and you're a small team, let's say you're like a start up, you have, like, three people, you have maybe five people, and you just got your seed round, and you have a couple $100 on your bank account, and you wanna build this MVP, and you wanna push it out to the world, and you want it to be available for iOS and Android. What you usually do, and this is very common, is you build a cross platform app first. Because your team is small and your resources are limited and the time that you have is also very limited, what you do is, like, you get the you do the mini min max principle. You're, like, least amount of effort, a maximum amount of result is usually a cross platform app. What's that what does that mean?
For for there are some programming languages out there that work on iOS and Android at the same time. So these might be Kotlin multiplatform or, Flutter or React Native. Those are kind of the popular ones that many companies that get started, they use these languages first, and they build the app in a very small team. Like, could be a single person, maybe two people working on a single app, a single code base. Then you compile it to both Android and iOS, and then you ship your product. And if you grow and if you're successful, then you get more funding, you grow your team. And then at some point, maybe a half a year, maybe a year later, you sit down again and say, now guys, okay. We're now getting serious.
We have some traction. Let's now build a native Android app and a native iOS app side by side because now we have, like, a team of 20 people or something. So, typically, what you would have done before wipe coding is to go that round. First, build a multiplatform app, grow the company, then build two native apps, and then ship that to the world. This is what, for example, I think Uber and, like like, so many companies do exactly that. Now what we've just learned, at least with this experience, is that things are changing a lot in that regard. So what you can do today is you could start the way we did it with BigChat is first, you know, one person goes ahead and builds an iOS app just completely by themselves, completely disregarding Android, just puts out an iOS app. And then a second person or even the same person, doesn't need to be an Android app Android developer, can take this finished software and just put it into an LMM and say, now translate it to native Android. And what would have taken, like, 20 people in your company to maybe or 10 people in your company to build two apps and to maintain two apps at the same at the same time, keep them all with feature parity at the same time, now works with essentially either one person or maybe two per two people. So the the, the barrier to entry to build native apps has dropped significantly.
And this is just because the the language that we share now is not React Native, but it's English. Both of us can speak English, so we can just both compile English to either Swift or to either Kotlin. And so that's how we ended up with two native, implementations of Pitch Hat. And I think this is actually, like this is the game changer. This might be, like, sound a bit, unimportant for those who don't know how you know, who are not into software development. But for those who are working in companies today who who hear this will like, should be super excited about this and maybe also change their plans of how they wanna build their apps because at this point, you can, like, literally just do things so much easier. Especially now I'm gonna, be done with my monologue, I I promise. But especially if you build something with a shared library. Now let's say, we wanna build a Casio wallet, a native Casio wallet for Android and for iOS, and we have this amazing library called CDK that is written in Rust.
So, basically, all of the complicated stuff is already done in Rust, and that's been cared for. Now instead of hiring two people that one building an Android app and one person building an iOS app, what I would do today is probably hire no one and just take the Rust library that we have and build a very slim and thin layer of Kotlin and a thin layer of Swift around it that is just the UI and almost doesn't do anything else, just the UI that is native in that platform language and have a super performant, super native looking, and, like, native feeling app that you usually would have, you know, needed a a large larger team of of software developers for. So extremely excited. Things are changing. I think, like, programmers out there should be, most afraid of what's happening right now.
If you're not using these tools today and you're not in the process of mastering these tools, then, you know, just, you know, think about what's going to be in five years, and think about what a start up will look like in five years and whether, you know, whether you'll be one of the people who keeps their job or one of the people who will lose their job because many of us will lose their jobs. That much is clear. A a a company that has to decide between three Jedis being able to use AI really well or 20 midwits that, still rely on just complete manual coding, they don't care about, like, the how to do your profession correctly.
They care about the efficiency of the operation. And, so this is a kind of a warning sign as well to the developers is learn these tools, learn to use these tools, and especially learn it today because in two years, they will be very different. These tools will change very fast, and you should be, like, out there. You should be on top of all these things and, in like, increase your productivity by multiple x. And, you know, I didn't know what it means to to enter the singularity. I couldn't imagine what it means that a person could 10 x their productivity.
Like, I my mind cannot comprehend what it means to you know, I will never be able to read 10 times as fast or to think 10 times as fast, but I can build code now 10 times as fast. And that's going to change everything. I'm pretty sure about that. Love it. Lovely.
[01:23:13] ODELL:
First off first off, we have Aggie, maintainer and creator of mpub.cash app, 10,000 sads, and he says Cali's bit chat port made me do a one eighty on vibe coding. If you know what you are doing, vibe coding puts you more in the position of a software architect. Modules that are self contained that you can clearly define an interface for are a one shot 99% of the time. Aggie, I have, my signal contact information is on Odell dot x y z. If you wanna come on dispatch sometime, I would love to have you. And we have the tester zapped 42,000 sets.
He says Cashew and Noster will take Bitcoin based payments to the next level. I like how nuts zaps are easier to verify than l n zaps. We just need j p 55 to come around. Cali,
[01:24:00] Calle:
No. We don't.
[01:24:02] ODELL:
We don't. That's the beautiful thing. You don't have to ask permission. Never apologize for your monologues. These are my favorite conversations I have on dispatch. And, I don't know if the freaks have noticed, but a lot of feedback I've received from our past conversations is, to bite my tongue and not interrupt and let just let you run and let you go. And, I will say that I thoroughly enjoy it. Not only do you have a you have a fascinating mind, but also you you, do not like using video. So I get to turn off my video, do some free weight exercises, and just listen to you run, and it's it's a joy from my perspective too.
[01:24:43] Calle:
Great. No. That's on my mind.
[01:24:46] ODELL:
I, well, that's what but I get caught off guard when you end the monologue. Can't unsee. I, what was I gonna say? I was gonna say, I mean, the cool part is so then the user gets the benefits of native apps, and then the developer gets the benefits of cross platform because I think it's really hard to hit scale without cross platform. It's really hard to recommend tools without being able to just blindly say download this app regardless of what platform they're using. When you have to say, like, oh, use Amethyst on Android or on iPhone. It, like, just adds more friction to the recommendation on the conversation.
But when I'm just laughing at the live chat now. But when you have, when when you have cross platform, it just it's just way easier to hit scale. It's way easier to get adoption. So we get the benefits of native, with the benefits of cross platform at the same time. It's just it's just what a time to be alive. It it seems incredibly powerful. So last piece here, because we're going kind of long. But, you and Dorsey and Ravel and Gleason and Jeff, I think I named everybody, have this vibe coding collective, called Android, and other stuff.
[01:26:17] Calle:
Is the goal here It's not a vibe coding collective. No.
[01:26:21] ODELL:
That's, like, definitely what your external messaging has has portrayed it as. So I'm just gonna keep calling it a Vibe Coding Collective until you prove me otherwise. The and he and and Jack specifically seeded it with $10,000,000. Is the goal here for maintenance going forward of BitChat is being handled by that not that organization? Or how is how does like, now that you did it, now that you created a native Android app that's cross compatible with iOS, like, how is BitChat maintenance going forward? Is it completely separate from ant other stuff, or how you think about it?
[01:26:58] Calle:
So, yeah, and and other stuff isn't isn't directly BitChat related. But, so what we are, we're we're a collective, and we wanna build Nostra stuff. And, specifically, we wanna we wanna build, like, high quality Nostra experiences that, that are still that we feel are still lacking. So one of the issues with the Nostril ecosystem, although, like, that is one of the best things about Nostril is that we have so many different things, is the lack of quality of the, of the few things. And one one of the examples of, like, a really high quality product out there is Primal, for example, which, unfortunately or fortunately is a VC funded company. So, I mean, all all all power is that I love. I I I use Primal too. Right? It's a great product. But, Primal, at the end of the day, needs to follow their investors' interests
[01:27:56] ODELL:
too. Like, they are not even I'm the I'm the investor. You don't have to talk about me in the third person.
[01:28:02] Calle:
Well, I I I, you know, I mean, as long as you stay as long as you stay true to yourself, maybe it works out. But generally speaking, the approach has has proven to multiple times that that VC funded projects themselves are not immune to external external influences. And, at some point, there will always be a point where you have to decide whether you're going to maximize the goals of your investor or maximize the original goals that you have set to yourself. So we wanna just break out of that loop and still be able to, like, build a cohesive group of people that work on one thing together. So BitChat itself is independent from that. It has just started, like, completely independent. But as, you know, you know, as I'm working on it and as people as as the cashew people are working on it, obviously, it's going probably going to play a role also in that environment.
But our our original goal with that collective is not is not BitChat itself. So I I will have to keep maintain BitChat, and I will also have to get more, you know, support and people and help from people to keep keep it alive and and make it just work really well. But with, other stuff, we want to, focus mainly on no store experiences. And so we have a couple projects that we already started doing. One of the things that we've built so far was Chorus, which was a, kind of a community forum prototype that we've built, also vibe coded. That's why also the association with vibe coding is so strong. But we put it out in a couple days, to to prove to ourselves how far we can go with, by relying on AI. But we're all very experienced, developers in that collective. So we know what the limits of it are and, how much, you know, vibe versus non vibe is necessary to make software maintainable over time. So, Chorus was was one stepping stone to our larger goal, and our large larger goal essentially is to create a community app experience on top of Nasr that can rival the big tech community platforms as well. So we're not going to build, like, another Twitter clone for Nasr. For now, we're focusing on building a community app platform. So, we we're still it's in the design, and I don't know, like, how much of it was already shared or not. But, essentially, you can think of Chorus, which is like this forum experience as just one single component of what we're trying to aim at.
So we're super frustrated in the collective. We're super frustrated about the different choices of how how you can manage communities today outside of the nostrils sphere. So you can think of, for example, Discord or Slack or, you know, these chat based community apps that are out there. Some of, some of the people out there might have also, you know, set up a matrix server, at some point and know how how much how hard it is to just set that up. And then even if you do so, you cannot take, your identity and just move somewhere else. So there are many problems of, like, peep organizing a group of people that, there are solutions on the Internet right now, and either of those solutions are commercial company funded, like VC funded, or companies that that kind of need to trap you in their ecosystem. I'm talking about, for example, Discord, Microsoft Teams, Slack, and so on.
Or you have, these kind of janky, hard to use and hard to set up systems like Matrix, for example, for your own community. And for us as developers, these are essential tools that we rely on every day. We we use this all the time. Like, we have for for Casio, we have our own matrix server. We unfortunately also use Telegram a lot for community stuff or, like, open community where everyone can just join and start asking questions. But we also use for internal communications, we also use signal a lot. So we we kind of scattered around different platforms and, like, basically, all of them are bad, and none of them, gives us what we need. And so what we want to, focus on, what we have already started working on is a community tool that we adopt, universes. For now, that's the that's the, the the name that we, go with for now is that we wanna build, something that you can set up for yourself, for your community, that you can host yourself, or you can also let others host for you. But it uses NoSir for your identity, so you are you can never be trapped inside that thing. You can always take your community and just move it somewhere else. And in our group of people, so you mentioned, Jeff g, and me, we we bring all the components together to build, like, a really slick and safe and, useful experience. So we have, we have private communications built on white noise and MLS that is going to be, like, integrated into this as well. So you can use it as your replacement for, your signal group or your matrix group, for example.
And, we have Gleeson who's, like, a OG in communities, has built so many platforms already and knows exactly how they behave. And Revel is a is a is a master in UI and UX research, has done, a lot of work also in researching how people use Nostr already. And I'm kind of the money and Bitcoin guy, so, bringing Cashew in there, allowing us to use money within those systems and to allow them to fundraise within those systems and pay each other and and all the, you know, build marketplaces and so on on top of that. So what we are thinking about is not a super app. I wouldn't wanna call it that way, but, like, a competition to community applications that already exist that is built on NoStar that doesn't necessarily feel like NoStar, but allows you to have, like, safe and secure, communication that is extendable and doesn't lock you in. And that's what that's what we're working on. So BitChat might become a a part of that, just because, like, there are several people in the group who who are interested in working on it, but it's not our main focus.
[01:34:45] ODELL:
Okay. I mean, I wanna start with the earlier comments, because this is something that I think about a lot with my two major focuses, which is open SaaS and ten thirty one. So I also came to the conclusion years ago that that VCs were a key part of the problem. And, like, VCs, specifically, like, traditional, you know, hyper successful, massively money deploying VCs were and their incentive structure was was was corrupting a lot of what was being built. And and and specifically but and so so OpenSats actually came first. I mean, 10/31 was in its infancy.
I launched OpenSats, and then after and then and 10/31, actually, the the the two founders of ten thirty one, my partners over there, Grant and Jonathan, were one of the first checks into OpenSats. They helped get us off the ground, because they loved what we were doing. But what what I noticed really quickly was there is just not that much money going around in the open source ecosystem, in the open source charitable ecosystem. Right? And, while that obviously, you know, seems like the best path, charity money that is forever and doesn't come with strings attached.
If you look at the donors, it's just really not that many people. I mean, the open sats, we've raised, like, mid 30,000,000, like, $35,000,000, $36,000,000. Most of that was Jack. I'm very excited for what and other stuff and you guys are doing over there. That was also seeded by Jack with 10,000,000. Probably the most successful sustainable open source freedom focused project is Signal, which was acquired by Twitter in, like, I think, 2011. And then Jack because Jack wanted to encrypt DMs on Twitter. Never encrypted DMs on Twitter, partially probably because of a lot of, like, the VC big money interests, but then, released signal open source. It was previously called TechSecure.
Released that project open source, and then one of the WhatsApp cofounders got mad at the Facebook acquisition and then seeded money into that project. So a lot of the roads lead back to Jack. And so my conclusion has come to the fact that money is what supercharges all of these things. Capital is what supercharges all of these things. And finding now that we have Bitcoin, finding sustainable models for open source projects is really the holy grail. Because if, god forbid, something happens to Jack and that funding stops, where do we sit? And if you wanna, like, think about the scale of something like ten thirty one, which is my for profit venture, we've deployed $200,000,000.
Open SaaS deploys about a million dollars a year a month. We're quite proud of that. I think that's a scale that that most open source charities never have never been able to to grasp. We send it all out in Bitcoin. But still, that dichotomy of $35,000,000 raised versus $200,000,000 raised is, like, completely different. As it's just like on it's just on a whole another scale. So if the goal is sustainable open source projects, I think there's actually a a strong path that can be happened in the for profit world. And Primal is actually a really good example here since you mentioned it. And I appreciate the good words that you mentioned, towards that project because I think Milian and his tiny team of, like, seven people, get a lot of shit, but they're trying to do things the right way. I mean, that project is a completely false stack. Right? Everything they build is open source, and they're trying to be profitable and sustainable with additional with, like, services built on top that are optional.
Right? I think that's the harder path. I think Primal is another good example here where we're the largest investor by far. It's probably just angels that have invested because traditional VC doesn't want to try that path. That's it's the harder path. The harder path is releasing open source software and trying to monetize ethically. They realized there is an issue that needs to be solved. Balaji was just on a 16 z's podcast who's, like, probably a 16 z's like the big evil empire. And what did he shield? He shield forecaster and base because they they can be predatory and and and dump shit coins on retail, and do a bunch of different ad sales and other things there.
But they can't do that on Noster. But he he diagnosed the core part of the problem, which is being able to communicate without permission, and being able to verify things without permission in an AI deep fake type of world. So I just wanna push back a little bit on the idea that something being investment funded is inherently bad. I think profit leads to human flourishing. It leads to sustainability. And at the core, you probably at and other stuff have the same problem. It's like, if you don't find a sustainable business model for these projects, you are gonna be relying on Jack's funding forever to maintain them.
And in our case, if we don't find a sustainable if we don't find sustainable profit or sustainable funding, then us as investors would have to keep funding primal forever, and we don't wanna be in that situation.
[01:40:53] Calle:
I I agree with most of what you said. It's just I I need to make a distinction there. I'm not strictly talking about nonprofit. Right? So it will be the best outcome of this is finding a sustainable business model. And I think this is something, you know, that that just some open source projects have managed, and and and it's certainly a possibility. The big difference, I think, is whether you're kind of in quotes, like, captured from the beginning or not. And yes. So not every open source project can start off with, like, charitable funding.
And, this is also you know, there are lots of projects that that emerge from just funding from OpenSats itself. But the individual, like, projects themselves often have the goal of becoming profitable at some point. Right? So the ratio of what works and what doesn't work, I don't have numbers whether, you know, open source, fully open source, charitable, funded projects have a lower probability of becoming, sustainable at some point or not. But, it doesn't mean that just because you start off with a donation that you cannot find ways to to make profit over the long term. And this is certainly like a possibility with the projects that we're doing with, and other stuff. So we have these different pillars of individual people working on in on on different things. Like, for example, Jeff g is working on white noise. And, obviously, you know, right now, I I'm not sure if they have a profit, motive, or or profit model yet or not. But it certainly is something that, they they can be looking forward to in the in the future. And the same goes also for Casu. Casu right now is a fully nonprofit open source, fully open project that has kind of, lots of contributors funded from various different sources that we're extremely lucky and super help like, thankful for that we are receiving the support in in to in form of grants to individual contributors.
But at some point, you know, there should be a business coming out of this that also can sustain itself because, I don't wanna, you know, bet on, the charitable, outlook. Just the the fact that we can get donations forever. And, and this is what we're already seeing. And, for example, for Cashew, if I can make that example, is there are, maybe now five to six businesses that use Cashew in some way or other, and some of them even use it as their core, you know, product in their in their business. So, protocols can be a platform for businesses to build on top. But I think we both would agree that the protocol itself should, have no other incentives than, increasing freedom and accessibility and, you know, empowering people to build stuff on top of that. So being profitable is not evil, but choosing your investors correctly in the beginning is an extremely hard thing to do.
And most projects, they are not in a position where they can decide who invests in them, and many of them just need to take anything that they are offered. And at some point, this leads to conflict, and it has led to conflict over and over and over again. You have made the examples before. So, whether it's, WhatsApp or or, whatever. Right? So, hopefully, and this is also my hope for Nasr and and for Bitcoin, we are seeing this. Like, on Bitcoin, we're seeing more and more profitable businesses built on top, and I think it's also very hard on Bitcoin. I I don't know what the what the ratio of profitable businesses are, for for ten thirty one, and that might be the same for other VCs as well. So it's just a hard business, and the probability of being profitable is very low. Whether you start off with VC funding or you're bootstrapped by your own money or you start as a nonprofit protocol and then, start a business on top of it. Right?
[01:45:24] ODELL:
No. I mean, like, I agree. I think that was very well said. It's definitely the harder path. I just think it's it's the goal regardless is to try and find sustainable funding in a open system. And, I I, you know, I think, people seeing firsthand trying to raise money for open source projects, it's quite difficult. It's way diff more difficult than people that are not exposed to it realize. And it's some it's definitely the more difficult path. And, I mean, I will just say that on the ten thirty one side, we try and do things differently and practice what we preach, but we're very rare in that front. And most Bitcoin companies, that are trying to build on top of open protocols without, like, vendor lock in and stuff like that have a hell of a time raising.
And that's it's no coincidence that the most of the time I think the the number is, 90% of the time, we're the exclusive investor, because people just aren't willing to take the risk. And I'm well aware that most VCs say this, but we are actually incredibly founder friendly and, make sure that the founders retain control over over their baby and the vision. We're not trying to come in here and push people around and tell them how to do things. We're just here to support where we can.
[01:47:00] Calle:
That that is amazing. And, I mean, both of us, we know that ten thirty one is not representative. Right? So you guys are doing a great job, and you're just different than the rest of the landscape out there. And, like, the amount of bullshit that I get in my inbox is okay. I bet. I'm aware. You should see the bullshit I see. Money on stuff.
[01:47:24] ODELL:
I've the some of the pitches and some of the investor calls I've had are quite infuriating. But, the hard path is, I think, the better path, and we just gotta take it. Anyway, I just I've once again, I just I I consider you a very close friend. I have a ton of respect for you. I'm really grateful to have you building in the ecosystem, and, it's just, I, I just felt I felt the need to push back a little bit that, basically, like, the one major negative we see about primal specifically in the Nasr ecosystem is that they're trying to be profitable and that they've received investment. But I would just add in there just really quick is, like, the amount of investment they've received is is quite negligible compared to who they're trying to compete with.
And we're gonna try and make that money go a long way. Callie, this was awesome rip. I always enjoy our rips. It went longer than I was planning. The family that we have that homeschools their her three sons where my son, my toddler goes, canceled on us today. So I left the wife in charge of the children.
[01:48:48] Calle:
Gotta do what you're doing tomorrow.
[01:48:50] ODELL:
I gotta get back to that. But, I think last time we ripped, we said, like, every six months, we're gonna do, an update. Can we can we continue this trend? I these are my favorite conversations.
[01:49:02] Calle:
Of course. I I love talking to you. I'm very happy to join you again in six months or earlier, whenever it works. Awesome. I'm down I mean, I'm down for earlier once again. I think,
[01:49:13] ODELL:
things are moving quickly in a good way. So let's keep up the momentum. You have any final thoughts, for the listeners before we wrap?
[01:49:26] Calle:
I mean, what I wanna say is just hoping that someone out there is listening and doesn't know what to do with their job or their life and feels inspired by the open source world that we're building. And, I hope that if you're a developer out there and you don't like your corporate job, that you can consider coming into the Bitcoin ecosystem or Nostra ecosystem and, helping us to move this kind of revolutionary project forward. We need every single person who can help. So, if you feel like you can contribute to this in any way, then, talk to me, talk to anyone who, who can show you around, and, we can use anyone who can help us, bring Bitcoin to the world. And I think if, you know, if we're not gonna do it, then no one is going to do it. So, please join us.
[01:50:31] ODELL:
Love it. I just wanna add a little bit of final thought here on the ten thirty one side. I don't think we're gonna make a 16 z obsolete through ideology. I think that, if you build on open protocols, you can actually outperform the centralized walled gardens. It's just a harder path that takes longer. But our plan at ten 31 is to do it the right way and absolutely destroy the returns that a 16 and the others provide to their investors. Freaks, if you still use x, make sure you follow Cali. It's x.com/calibtc. Every time you post, press the retweet button. It goes a long way.
He's our leader over there, and he needs your support.
[01:51:23] Calle:
I'm not a leader.
[01:51:24] ODELL:
I, you're a leader whether you like it or not. Those are the best the best leaders are the ones that don't wanna be a leader. So thank you for your service and your sacrifice.
[01:51:34] Calle:
I, Who knows? That was a difficult thing to say.
[01:51:38] ODELL:
I, we're gonna keep the trend going with dispatches. We're keeping momentum up. All the relevant links are still dispatch.com. Share with your friends and and family. It goes a long way. It's in every every podcast app. Just search dispatch in your favorite podcast app.
[01:51:57] Calle:
Join us because I'm a Bitcoin developer. Come up.
[01:52:02] ODELL:
Or don't maybe do it on the side for a little bit. You know? Get your feet wet. It's kind of a superpower having a separate paycheck while you while you build Freedom Tech on the side. Ask to take advantage of it if you can. Fulfilling life. It's actually fulfilling. There you go. Well, be fulfilled, freaks. Love you all. Stay on bull stack sets. Peace.
[01:52:24] Calle:
Bye.
What's the end game for you? Is it just to buy as much Bitcoin as you can and hold it for as long as possible and never sell it?
[00:00:07] Unknown:
That's one of the goals. Yes. But I think what makes us different than a lot of these other businesses is we plan to build Bitcoin products as well. I mean, the founding group is Tether and myself. I founded in Lead Strike as one of the bigger Bitcoin financial services firms in the world. Tether, obviously, is one of the most impressive companies in the history of humanity, but specifically in building massive cash flows within the space. So Paolo and I, before we were CEOs, we were engineers. We built a lot of products. And so we plan to not only acquire as much Bitcoin as possible, raising capital and all sorts of deep capital pools, but also build products, build technology, build tools. I think when people eventually think of '21, it's are they a competitor to Coinbase? Are they competitor to strategy? For us, why not both? We think we have that potential. Do you envision a future where Bitcoin treasury companies such as strategy, Mara,
[00:00:57] Unknown:
and you guys end up buying so much Bitcoin that there really isn't actually much left out there on the open market for people to trade? After all, it is a fixed number of Bitcoin, so no more will be created once it reaches that number. Right. You know what's fascinating about the asset, and it's not intuitive because it's so rare, is that to your point, it is definitively scarce.
[00:01:19] Unknown:
So if everyone in the world wanted an iPhone, Apple could make more. If everyone in the world wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, McDonald's could make more. The fact that Bitcoin cannot increase its supply means the new supply comes from the market. If you want more Bitcoin, you don't go to the Bitcoin factory to get one. You have to go up in price. Is there enough Bitcoin for me at a 120,000? No. Okay. $130,140, 150. So I tell you what, there's always Bitcoin available. Just depends on what you're willing to pay for it. And so what I think will happen is this price will continue to discover higher because Bitcoin is the scarcest thing. It's inelastic to the amount of demand that searches for it. So the amount of buying power that we're seeing from the capital markets, from the ETFs, and potentially from nation states like The United States, I think they'll find the supply they're looking for. They're just gonna have to go get it at a higher price.
[00:02:48] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was Jack Mallers of strike and twenty one talking about how Bitcoin is gonna go much higher, which I tend to agree with. As always, huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin. Dispatch is ad free, sponsor free, purely supported by viewers like you with Bitcoin donations. All relevant links are at citadeldispatch.com. We're on YouTube.
We're on Twitch. We're on every podcast app. We stream to x through the ten thirty one funds x account as well since my partner at ten thirty one, Jonathan, blue checked himself for that privilege. Top two supporters of last week was through the fountain podcast apps. We have Poopsicle with a thousand sats, said, Sedillo dispatch is my go to podcast when sitting on the toilet, and we had ride or die freak, Mav twenty one zapped us on the Nostra, on the Nostra video, zapped us a thousand sats. You can find all the videos of dispatch signed and hashed, zappable at primal.net/citadel.
With all that said, we have our good friend, returned guest, absolute legend, newly discovered Twitter influencer, Cali. How's it going?
[00:04:31] Calle:
Hey, man. How's it going? Thanks for that kind intro. I'm BlueTech now.
[00:04:37] ODELL:
You're BlueTech now. Congratulations. How does it feel?
[00:04:41] Calle:
It feels like, you know, it feels like something you wanna, have a shower after. I didn't choose my blue check. I think Twitter has some kind of weird algorithm, so they put a blue check on you even if you don't want one. I always pride myself that I didn't have one because I don't wanna play pay to play games. And you can't remove it. Here we are. No. Can't remove it. But I can write not a can write long posts now, which means I can send e cash over over Twitter.
[00:05:09] ODELL:
It's not, Yeah. I mean, obviously, it was a a bit of a troll. You're most well known for, being the creator and lead maintainer of Cashew and now being one of the co maintainers of BitChat, which is what we'll be talking about. But just on the x thing for a moment, it's actually not a weird algo. It the incentives are actually very clear. If you have more than 2,500 bluechecks following you, they automatically give you a blue check because they want every high value account to have a blue check to sell more blue checks to the low value accounts. It's bad, man.
It's it's what what they did to me right before I deleted,
[00:05:51] Calle:
which I guess I thought you were still on Twitter.
[00:05:53] ODELL:
It was, like, four hundred and seventy days ago or something like that. Maybe four ninety.
[00:06:01] Calle:
I thought you were still on Twitter.
[00:06:03] ODELL:
No. See, I'm there in spirit because I have Jack. I have Mallers, who's a way better spokesperson to the normie crowd and the suit crowd. He's acts absolutely been crushing it on the Mallers Show and CNBC and Bloomberg. And then I have you there who's a way better spokesperson for privacy and freedom money than I could ever be. And as long as I can support both of you from behind the scenes, then I accomplish all my goals in terms of the movement without actually having to expose myself there.
[00:06:36] Calle:
Very appreciated. Thank you for the kind words, and don't even think about coaching.
[00:06:43] ODELL:
You can carry the torch. Let's start with BitChat because I feel like BitChat's having its absolute moment. Dorsey, I guess, Vibe coded it over a weekend, released it out onto the Internet. The test flight immediately got filled up because he released an iPhone only test flight, and the App Store approval was taking a while. I think TestFlight maxes out at about 10,000 people. Then you vibe coded an Android version, native Android version, which then you released. And since then, now it's on the actual iOS app store. So you can get it on both iOS and Android. But the point is is, like, I haven't seen the the crazy organic viral hype around it was was pretty impressive. I mean, obviously, Dorsey has one of the largest x accounts in the world, but, I don't think anyone was expecting that kind of excitement.
[00:07:43] Calle:
Yeah. It it caught on pretty quickly. I'm I'm not sure if Jack expected, that kind of resonance as well. And, I mean, for those who don't know, maybe we should start with the basics. So, BitChat is a Bluetooth based mesh chat app. It allows you to chat with anyone who's close by, close enough to be in your Bluetooth range that is, let's say, like, 30 meters or so. But it also builds a mesh with anyone around you. So it's it's similar to, like, find my with iPhones, for example, or when you lose your AirPods or something, they can talk, to your phone even if you're far away. And they do that by talking to other iPhones that are close by and then get through the Internet.
BitChat allows you to build mesh networks of people around you to build, like, a larger mesh so you can chat with, like, people that are further away than what your iPhone can reach, and those are individual meshes. So this concept is is pretty cool because it doesn't use Internet. It is kind of very different from all the other chat or messaging apps that people are used to, and I think that might also be the reason why so many people found it interesting. Also for completeness, it should be said that this is not the first mesh based or Bluetooth based chat app out there. There have been a couple before.
Some some listeners might remember Firechat. This has been maybe ten years ago or something where they also tried to do something similar, built an app, that works over mesh, and it's been, like, even in the the Hong Kong protests that were, you know, before COVID and, like, couple years before COVID when they started, those were very important tools for the people on the street, on the ground because they needed a way to talk to each other without using the Internet. So all in all, it's a very different kind of chat app, and that might also explain why so many people found it interesting. I guess most people that heard of it, of BitChat, didn't know of their predecessors.
And yeah. So I think now Jack has released it on the iOS App Store a year a a day ago or so. It's already in the top 100 free apps in The US. It has surpassed, even signal as in the free social app category. It's kind of, like, just trending upwards or as, Jack Mallers would say, it discovers higher places in the App Store ranking. So super exciting. And that's for the, for the iPhone for the iPhone version, that that Jack built. I saw that. I found it very interesting too. So I saw it the same, like, the on the same day as anyone else. I didn't know that he was working on this. And when I saw it, I really liked it a lot. I also liked Firechat and all the predecessors before things like Meshtastic, for example. I'm just a big fan of alternative infrastructure and things to circumvent ISPs and build, like, alternative, in quotation marks, like, Internet applications, although this is not Internet, obviously.
So I found this super interesting. I looked at it, saw it. Like, I I got into the into the test flight on my on my iPhone and on my Mac. I'm playing around with it, but I'm not, like, primarily an iOS person. So I thought, well, if he can do it, I can probably do it too. And sat down, took most like, all of his codes, fed it into an LLM, tried to analyze it, came up with an implementation plan, and then just wiped my wiped my way through it. And it probably took me, like, half a day or so to get a working version that could send and receive messages with the iOS version, which is insane. Like, I'm very happy to talk about the development cycle and the way we built this app.
Jack built the iOS version. I built the Android version because it's it's a completely different way of building stuff. It's it's been incredible also for me as a seasoned developer. It's been an insane experience to be able to see that that you can just really do things in a in an extremely fast and efficient way these days using AI if you're willing to basically, like, go all in and fight with with the agent.
[00:12:27] ODELL:
Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack there. First off, so just, like, a quick overview because there is because it's hit, the mainstream hype cycle, I think there's a lot of just general confusion over what mesh is, and I think you did a good explanation. But just to sum it up for the Americans listening, Like, Bluetooth has about a 100 foot range. Right? So Cali said meters. That's what the rest of the world uses. Bluetooth has a 100 foot range. Everyone you're communicating doesn't have to be in the 100 foot range. Out of the the most simple explanation, imagine I'm standing somewhere. I got bitch out open.
Callie's a 100 feet away from me, and then Bob is a 100 feet away from Callie. I can still communicate to Bob because it relays through Callie who's, you know, equidistant between us. But you can imagine, like, a web kind of developing among people where it could then expand out, particularly in places like cities, high density areas, festivals, sporting events, places that historically well, sporting events and festivals historically have had issues with cell connection and Wi Fi connection and stuff like that, but they have high density people. Disaster situations, you might not have Internet.
In situations where government is trying to oppress people, one of the first things they do nowadays is cut the Internet. We saw Iran recently do this, while the the war was going on with Israel and and Trump was bombing them. They cut the Internet so that their people couldn't communicate. In those types of situation, mesh can be very helpful. Now in your example, you used, find my the find my network on Apple as an example. I think another example would be, like, their AirDrop feature where you can send files and stuff between people, which was actually also used in China. But then after pressure from the Chinese government, they Apple heavily limited it globally.
But the the interesting aspect of the Find My thing is it does have, like, this automatic seamless Internet bridge where if I walk past your your stolen or lost, AirPods and I'm connected to the Internet, it will then ping the Internet with the location. So it uses near term communication like Bluetooth, in proximity, but then it bridges out to the Internet. Is there a play I mean, obviously, in good times, I think or in, really, in any type of situation, if one person's in the mesh, ideally, if if one person in the mesh has the ability to connect to the Internet, that could be quite powerful for everyone that is that is using that mesh to then be able to communicate with the outside world. Is that one of the plans in place, for this going forward?
[00:15:31] Calle:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So as you said, right now, it's useful for for high density situations where you have a bunch of people around you and you wanna communicate. This This can also be, by the way, devices that don't have Internet by themselves. For example, a computer without a SIM card inside. Right? So you can also use it on your on your desktop computer or your laptop to talk to other laptops even if you don't have an Internet connection. So as you said, like, you made a couple of really good examples of where where this might be useful, in, like, a sports stadium.
Could be a a flight or a kind of disaster situation. But yeah. So since you'll always be limited to be able to reach people in your range or a couple hops away from your range because of this, mesh and the the size of the mesh. I think, like, you'll probably be able to reach a couple 100, people, maybe a few thousand. I it's hard to say because we haven't been able to really stress test it with a bunch of people yet. You gotta test it in the sports stadium. That's like the Yeah. We're we're we're definitely gonna test it in the next BTC plus plus, conference that is that is approaching soon. So, like, a combinations of, like, congregations of, many Bitcoiners is is a great way to test it. By the way, just like a little segue, I I will come to your question. But, like, thinking of of Bitcoin Core, so, a a phone's a phone's Bluetooth chip is typically limited by, by, I think, to, around eight connections per chip. So at least on Android, it's, it's around eight connections.
And with eight connections, you'll never be able to reach everyone. Right? And, coincidentally, Bitcoin d itself is also limited to eight inbound connections. So with with eight inbound connections, it is kind of possible to reach the entire world because if, if the connectivity is is heterogeneous enough, then, the the network that forms around people is dense enough to reach almost anyone. Eight or seven hops is also that, that famous number of, of hop hops of separation between any two people in the world if you follow friend networks, established before social social networks. So even in the in the nineties, you were able to reach anyone from anyone to anyone sending, let's say, like a letter, a written letter, over seven hops on average. So that number is itself okay.
The number of connections doesn't need to be drastically higher to get a big reach. But, for Bluetooth, you're mainly limited by the range of the individual connection, and it's, it's basic you can't assume that you'll be able to cover the entire planet if you don't add, like, a bunch of new hardware and then also improve routing a lot. So routing is also one of the big problems that we can talk about. Now coming to your question, obviously, that you you can imagine this as individual, like, islands of meshes. That could be your neighborhood and my neighborhood, and we're very far away, but we're both in a dense populated area, so we can talk to our neighbors. But how do I now talk to you over a bit chat? And then we need something else that connects our meshes. And there are multiple ideas of people that, like, that proposed, different ways of doing that already.
So, for example, one guy, I think, two days ago or something popped up, he's built kind of a, amplifier for this whole thing, such like a dedicated device that can connect to all the, BitChat devices around you, but but can also make one connection very far away to another mesh. And if there's one other guy with a similar device, it could also be Meshtastic, by the way. It's a different mesh network that has long range connections. Then you can imagine situations where you can connect different meshes still without using the Internet. So there are ways to do that, and there are multiple people working on multiple different ways of trying that out. And we'll we'll see how that goes, and I'm I'm optimistic that it can be useful.
Now, obviously, the best network, the biggest network that we have is the Internet. So, yes, can we use the Internet? Can we can we do the same thing as your iPhone does to your AirPods, for example? Your AirPods talk to the Internet using one single hop to to to a nearby iPhone, and that iPhone then transmits the location to the Apple network. And, so the answer there is, yes. We can do that. And the plan actually is to use Nasr for it. So what we wanna do is have individual meshes, that can be located in different places. We still have to think about how to how to identify these meshes, whether a mesh needs to be, like, its own dedicated thing. Does it need an ID? Does a mesh need a location?
But if if we can address a mesh, then we can also build connections between meshes. Right now, what, I think is being worked on is a direct connection between two people. So if I meet you, let's say, offline, in a in a sports stadium and we connect over, our BigChat apps, and then I I, press on the favorite button, like, when we chat, there's a encrypted chat between us, that has great privacy. But I can press, like, a favorite button, and I can remember your your public key key, essentially. And then after we met, we can go separate ways, and you can go home, I can go home. And as long as, like, there is Internet on our on both of our phones and, the app detects that we're not close by, then it will use Nasr to talk to the other guy. So that will be a person to person connection going over Nasr and, will be very different from other Nasr reps, and it will, like, not be connected to your social identity and so on at least for now.
But it can use this existing Internet network to connect, these two people. And now a natural extension of this, as you already hinted, is now I wanna like, let's say my friend who, doesn't have Internet wants to talk to you, and I do have Internet, and you're far away. So can my friend now use my phone's Internet to talk to you similar to the Find My network? And I think, like, that's that's gonna also be a thing where inside your mesh, you're just gonna look for one of the devices that has Internet and then use that Internet connection to, for example, make, establish a communication channel with someone else over Nasr.
So, yeah, long winded but, yeah, detailed, way of saying, yes. It's it's a plan. We wanna extend the range of these, meshes basically to infinity as long as there is an Internet connection as well.
[00:22:59] ODELL:
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, if if I wanna if if we want a real example of this here is, we recently had that hurricane or, I guess, maybe it was a tropical storm that hit North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee, and created a ton of devastation, knocked out Internet for everybody. And, I mean, they're still trying to recover now. I it was almost a year ago. Maybe it was, like, in September ish, when it happened, so a little bit less than a year ago. But at the time, there was actually a lot of work on the ground to bring meshtastic devices in, to connect the local communities to each other to coordinate, disaster relief. But, also, at the same time, there was people bringing in STARLINKS, and it was really hard to get Starlinks.
Like, you know, the the best time to own a Starlink is before you need it, not when the disaster is going on. But in this in this scheme, if you could imagine a situation where one person in the community had a Starlink, and then a thousand people in the community had BitChat, and there was some kind of way and so so that one person with Starlink had BitChat and was connected to his own Starlink Wi Fi, then all of a sudden that entire mesh would have access to the rest of the world without, everyone there needing a Starlink.
[00:24:32] Calle:
Yeah. That's right. And especially for those kind of situations, like, you, even, like, the tiniest low bandwidth connection is super helpful. Like, in a disastrous situation, you don't wanna browse the web and download a YouTube video. You wanna ask, hey. Where where are the supplies? Or where is help needed? Like, those are short messages can go a long way in really bad situations. And that's what that's what people try to, reestablish in most cases. Right? So mesh meshtastic, for example, which is a great project. We also will limit you in the amount of data that you can transmit, but even a short text message itself can be extremely useful in that in that situation. But I wanna say, like, one more thing on on top, which is not only the utility of this whole, scheme in in a situation where where you have to depend on it, but also just, being able to build infrastructure that is not controlled by anyone. So this is kind of a cypherpunk principle way of thinking about it, is is the the Internet stack that we have. And in in last year's, especially with Bitcoin and things like Tor, or alternative, like, ways of communicating such as Meshtastic.
We we have kind of a very good stack at this point where we can have, like, money that is not controlled by anyone, and we can have all these services. We have Nasr, which is key like, public key infrastructure where we can find each other and communicate with each other. The Achilles heel of the entire Internet stack is still the hardware level, like the the cables and the ISPs that control access to the Internet. Or for your phone, this is your SIM card provider, so your Internet provider. And these days, it's almost impossible to get access to the Internet without identifying. So the these networks are so monopolized, and it's so hard to become a new player in the Internet ISP game that we have converged to sit like, small amount small number of very big players and who can just dictate all the rules. And sometimes they even don't want to be as cruel as they need to be, but also, like, the government and the rules around just providing communication infrastructure forces them to basically KYC anyone who wants to use the Internet. Right? So in many parts of the world, you cannot get a SIM card anymore without registering and identifying yourself.
And, and that, you know, that problem just propagates upwards. So it makes me it makes me really furious to think about this, but, like, so much of the Internet infrastructure that we have today, even an email address with Gmail, for example. Like, try to make an email address with Gmail without a phone number. It's basically impossible these days. So your phone number is tied to your identity, and there is no way out. You you have, like, almost no way to get a SIM card, and some people know how to do it, but most people don't. There's basically no way to get access to Internet without identifying. So just working on the infrastructure level is something extremely important. I think very, very hard problem to solve, and BitChat is not going to be the answer of, like, getting rid of the Internet infrastructure there. But at least having, like, a low bandwidth version of something that we can use without permission, without being able to, you know, shut it down remotely and so on is extremely important.
So, that's why I'm a big fan of of these know, alternative projects as well. We mentioned Meshtastic, Firechat, and there are others as well. And, that's why it makes sense to work on something like BigChat because, we you cannot turn it off. You don't need access to, a, like, antenna that is controlled by by T Mobile or something. It's just literally the Bluetooth chip in your phone, that you own and the Bluetooth chip of your friend over there that they own, and that's it. We can communicate without having to ask for permission. That being said, I am aware that Bluetooth itself is not the most resilient infrastructure there is. This is just something inherent inherent to radio communication itself.
Radio communication is not, is not, you know, invincible. Let's say you're in a protest situation where you're we can imagine the Hong Kong protests before, COVID, where you'll be able to talk to people around you, and the privacy will also be good enough so you can, you can do that safely. But if as long you know, as soon as there is someone with a big blaster that just just blasts electromagnetic, waves in the Bluetooth range, you can disrupt those channels also very easily with, a lot of power. And, you know, governments know how to do that, and, they can also do the same also with your mobile connection and your your just your phone ISP, basically.
So those jammers will still be able to turn off these networks, and it's very hard to defend against those because that's just how radio works and, you know, the the stronger your devices, the more it will kind of take away from everyone else trying to, to communicate on the same bandwidth. So, yeah, those are kind of a couple of the, properties of Bluetooth. But, maybe we'll find more ways to connect peer to peer in the future, maybe with Wi Fi direct and other technologies that offer similar properties.
[00:30:40] ODELL:
I mean, yeah, talking about the vulnerabilities of current infrastructure and, trying to block access. One of the things I've noticed at both civil dispatch and rabbit hole recap, my two shows that, stream live, to Nasr on ZapStream, is that we get hit with DDoSes every time we go live, which is a nice validation by someone with resources that hates me. But they cannot stop the signal because everything will get published to the podcast apps after the fact, and we are still live on YouTube even though dispatch has shadow been there. So you can just search Siddle dispatch in YouTube if you want to follow the stream there. It looks like ZapStream has just come back online.
Wouldn't be surprised if it goes back offline again. But, yeah, everything gets posted to Nostra afterwards. It's harder to stop that. So you can go to primal.net/citadel or search Citadel dispatch in your favorite Nostra app or your favorite podcast app to see the recordings after the fact. I have a question for you, Kelly. I mean, well, on the protest piece, one of the things we do see is because, cell connections have been the primary means of communication for modern day protests is that they run stingrays, which are basically mobile cell towers and have you connect to them instead of, to a regular cell tower. They can disrupt connections. They can track people that way.
Presumably, if Bluetooth if something like BitChat becomes more and more used, they will actively jam Bluetooth connections. This is to be expected. It's a demand response kind of situation, that maybe they haven't felt the need to do yet. And when I say they, I mean global governments fighting protests. I have a just to pull it back for a second, I mean, I mesh is something for the reasons you highlighted is something that I've been very excited about for a long time. And, there's been a lot of false starts. Right? There was, you know, there was LoRa. There was the closed source proprietary, Gotena.
There was obviously Mechatastic, as you mentioned, Firechat. Is this time different, and why is it different? Like, it it was maybe I was just maybe I'm, like, disenfranchised old old man. But, when I saw a BigChat get released by Dorsey, it was cool. I was like, that's awesome. I'm glad to see, you know, someone more you know, another person more focused on mesh. But then it caught me off guard, the amount of excitement around it, just because of the lack of excitement or the lack of tangible adoption of the other tech that's been out there. Why do you think this time is different?
[00:33:43] Calle:
Well, I mean, it remains to be seen whether this time is different. Right? So, these things, they live off the network effect. So excitement is part of the resilience of these systems because they need to be run by by individuals instead of just hoping that a cell phone provider will, like, put an antenna there and put you online. So, I think the excitement definitely helps just from an infrastructure perspective. But, you know, like, hardware today is definitely different than than ten years ago. The hardware in your phone is kind of incredible at this point, and the distances that your Bluetooth chip can traverse has, you know, gone up many multiple times.
The energy that it uses has gone down many multiple times. So things are just getting better and better, and I I I just expect this to continue to do so. At the same time, you know, I'm I know that, it has been attempted many times before, and I wouldn't call these projects that you mentioned failures. They just maybe never hit, like, a threshold where enough people used used it, so it became useful to people other than, just people wanna play around with it and try it out. And just to be clear, this remains to be seen for BitChat two. But our technology is better, and the the need just keeps going up. So I think with every day that we spend on this earth, we see more and more reasons why we need alternative infrastructure.
And, and I think, like, with things like Nostr, if you combine it with other freedom technologies like Bitcoin, if you send around you know, if you use this infrastructure to send around e cash, which is one of the main reasons why I was, like, excited about it, in the very first beginning. If you you know, we have many more things that we can do with it today than than a couple years ago. So, we'll we'll just have to keep trying it and, like, the because we've, like, the the we might have failed a couple years ago, but in my mind, that's not a reason for, to stop trying to to stop trying to fix, these issues in the future. If if we don't try it, like, we'll definitely never, achieve the goals of this project. So, I don't see, like, any reason to not try it out again.
And, as you said, the alternative is is just centralized Internet ISPs, and those come with so many problems, and no one is really working on improving that. There are a couple of, you know, projects here and there that try to be a better ISP, but, they themselves need to be centralized systems. So decentralized systems are just harder to bootstrap, harder to build, harder to keep alive, but it doesn't mean that they cannot succeed. And we've seen this with Bitcoin. We've seen this with BitTorrent or, Tor. And I hope and I believe that we can also achieve, something in that regard with, Internet or communication infrastructure.
[00:37:15] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, Mesh specifically has an interesting chicken and egg adoption thing, which, I mean, is what we've seen with a lot of the responses by people who download BitChat for the first time. Right? Which is, oh, I downloaded it, and I don't see anybody on it.
[00:37:33] Calle:
Yeah. That's nice.
[00:37:36] ODELL:
Because more so, like, there there's, like, you know yeah. I mean, for more so than other tech. Right? Like, Mesh has this massive adoption hurdle in the beginning, which is what leaves me cautiously optimistic that it hit the ground running with so much hype or so much excitement, that we might be able to get through that adoption hurdle.
[00:37:59] Calle:
Look. Yeah. So, I mean, people need to know about it. So it needs to be, popular in order to work. And the goal right now is not to replace the Internet. Right? It's it is to offer communication to islands of people, and there are many islands out there. So if there's an app that just you can very easily just spin it, open the app, and within two seconds, you're connected to anyone around you. There are many use cases for this. It could be, as you said, it could be a festival. It could be a conference. Right? Sports event.
So many situations where people not not only because they don't have Internet, but because they are not, like, automatically connected to anyone around you. Like, imagine, you're you're on a you're on a Bitcoin conference, and you just wanna send a link to anyone who's in the room. How do you do that? The you know, just announcing your location to use an Internet service for it, one way would be to post a link somewhere and then just project the QR code and hope that people can scan it. Right? So there's, like, roundabout ways of going, trying to solve this issue.
But, really, limiting communication to a geolocation to a spatial extent basically requires you to dox your location to an Internet service today. So I could imagine that people will come up with situations or basically have things in mind already. It might be your warehouse. It might be your company or something where you don't want to use Internet because you don't want people to make an account and say, hey, app. You know, I'm now in Nashville, and I would like to get all the messages that are addressed to Bitcoin Park or something like that. Right? I don't wanna dox my location that I'm in Bitcoin Park right now. So one of the ways is a mesh.
And there, the the hurdle is way smaller if you just think about small groups and, people around you that you wanna communicate with. And because then you don't have to deal with the adoption thing either. You just have to tell the people around you, download this app. Yeah. You can use it on demand. You can send around a few, messages, share some information, and just close it again. You don't, you you you don't have to be, connected to to the global mesh all the time to make this thing useful. Another thing could be, that you leave it running in the background and you walk around the city or something like that. You you could kind of receive information, also send out information to devices or people around you. I I don't know what kind of use cases that would entail. Some people were joking about, you know, it's the new kind of flirting app for urban, singles or something that you find someone like, you you see someone in the metro and, you wanna talk to them or something like that. Sounds a bit creepy, but, you get the point. Like, you you might be someone who just, like, moves around and is interested in information being shared around you.
And, again, if you wanted to build this on a on the Internet, you would have to, track your location and share your location with the service. And with local connectivity, like with the mesh, you don't have to do that. So, I think there are many ways to make this useful that even us cannot really think about yet. And for now, it's about providing, the ability to do that, and people, like, automatically come up with, interesting use cases for this kind of stuff.
[00:41:32] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, we're already kind of seeing it. So, like, one of my focuses one of my tangential focuses outside of Bitcoin has been developing relationships with local American ranchers and getting good quality meat to feed my family. I think, you know, strong communities support each other and and have each other's back with this kind of thing, and good food is a key aspect of, quality of life, and a flourishing family. And a lot of these ranches right now, they use GMRS radios for kind of a similar purpose. Right? So these are short, you know, five mile line of sight radios. They just wanna communicate among their ranch. Obviously, that requires greater distance than Bluetooth.
But I think you could imagine a situation where since all of this is open source, you have, you know, physical repeaters that you put around a ranch or something, to accomplish that type of use case. And it could actually be more helpful than just pure audio communication, which is what they have to rely on with these short range radios.
[00:42:45] Calle:
Yeah. Definitely. So these bridges, I think, will be super interesting. Like, whatever, whatever the type of bridge will be, and there are different ways to approach this. It could be like a radio bridge, like the one that you mentioned. It could be an Internet bridge that uses Nasr, or, like, it could be also a direct Wi Fi connection from your mesh to another mesh. So, you could imagine a situation where, you know, all the phones around in the in in the ranch, they can actually talk to all the other phones in the other other ranch. Right? So it you you don't have to go to the radio, pick up the microphone, and say, hey. Is anyone listening?
You could just send over a message and wait for a response like we're used to with any chat app, that we already use.
[00:43:36] ODELL:
Yeah. I'm laughing because, the one of the reasons I love that both of my shows are live shows is the live chat and the live trolling that happens. And Scardust Official would like to remind us that GMRS stands for general mobile radio service, and, saying GMRS radios is, something worthy of being trolled about. I, the other aspect here that I think is kinda cool for local communication is when you mix Cashew into it. And so then all of a sudden, not only do you have localized communication, but you have localized commerce. You can imagine something like a farmer's market, for instance, where everyone in the farmer's market is able to communicate with each other and pay each other.
I saw that, you've integrate I believe you've integrated Cashew into the Android version of the app?
[00:44:28] Calle:
Both. I mean, I did on the Android, but we we also integrated in in our team, we also integrated into the iOS one. So we have both ready. Is it in is live in the iOS one right now? No. No. Neither. So, we'll have to work a bit more on the on the BitChat side of things. But as soon as that feels stable enough, then we'll we'll, like, try to push, the wallets on on both sides. So, yeah, this is super interesting. This is also, like, why how it caught my attention primarily because I've been, researching a lot on different ways of paying with Cashew.
And because Cashew use eCash, eCash is a bearer token. You can kind of send it with any communication medium that you can think of. Currently, we're stuck in this, realm of using QR codes for almost all things that we do, whether it's a Bitcoin lightning invoice, whether it's a cashier token that is transmitted via QR code, but also, with fiat payments. Like, if you think of Asia, for example, and for those who have traveled Asia, will know this, that QR codes are everywhere. You walk into a store, they show you a QR code, you are supposed to scan it with your camera. And, you know, QR codes work, but they are super limited in what they can transport.
And, cameras weren't never were made for this. Right? It's kind of a hack, a hack that got stuck with, with us. So, so we're using cameras, super high throughput device with megabits of information per second to transmit, like, a couple bytes of data in form of a QR code. That's what we that's what we're currently doing. So, we also we're also doing similar things for Cashew. So, we've so and and to to keep innovating in that realm, we have been experimenting a lot with NFC, for example. So tap to pay with eCash where you approach one phone to another phone and then send the eCash token directly from, NFC, also uses radio, or electromagnetic waves to send from, one phone to another.
And, that is also limited in throughput, but, most importantly, it is limited by, Apple to be able to do what you wanna do. So we can do tap to pay with e cash already from an Android phone to an Android phone or from a cart to a phone. That is also very cool. But, from Android to iPhone, you won't be able to send e cache in that direction. You can send from iPhone to Android because Android just can, can do more, and it can it can receive, but an iPhone cannot receive on the NFC chip. And so there are many technical limitations if you wanna send around data from phone to phone. So when I heard about, BitChat, I immediately thought about some experiments that we've been, doing before with, cache walls where we wanted to use Bluetooth Low Energy to send eCash from one device to another.
And, that seemed promising because Apple allows you to do as much as you can do also with an Android phone, so that kind of opens up a way to onboard everyone onto this payment system or payment, interaction. And so what I have in mind is, basically, in the future, I hope that you'll be able to walk into a store, and then, you'll, you know, you'll have a $10, receipt or something. The person at the store will enter it in their terminal, and then it'll just pop up on your phone and say you wanna pay $10, you press the button. You don't have to scan a QR code. You don't have to tap anything or but, you'll just get a notification on your device, or you can push the payment from your device to the, to the receiver, and they'll see a notification and can receive the payment. So this is what we had in mind, and we've been re researching it before.
And so when Big Hat came around, we're like, yeah. Fuck. Yeah. This is exactly what we what we need to try this with. So what we did is basically the opposite. Instead of implementing e Bluetooth into a Cashew wallet, we, went the other way and we implemented a Cashew wallet into BitChat. And we did that with, our, library called CDK, which is the Cashew DevKit, which is based on Rust. And it makes it extremely easy to build wallets and implement it into things. So it's a it's a Rust library that does all the Casio stuff for it for you, and it's using the last Rust library. It just allows you to build cacheable. It's extremely easy and super fast. So with this with this library, we we we're still kind of in the process of pushing it out and also putting the word out there because it's so new.
The fact that you can do this is is still super new. But, essentially, it it brought down the IQ requirement for building a Cashew wallet from maybe a 100 of 30 to 70 now. Like, you you can just implement a Cashew wallet within within a couple minutes into your application with that. So that's what we did. We took, BitChat for iOS and BitChat for Android. We took CDK and added, bindings for it for for the programmers who know what this means. For those who don't know what this means, binding's basically like the glue between the library that we're using and the application where we wanna, implement it to.
So we we took the CDK library and just put it into BitChat Android and BitChat iOS, and within couple of hours, we had fully functioning in cash wallets in both of these applications, completely independently, implemented. And that was it. So we had, like, a a little, wallet icon in the BitChat app. When you press it, it just opens a Bitcoin wallet that just looks like an ordinary cash wallet. And, with that wallet, you can charge it with lightning, then you'll have some stats on your BitChat wallet, app. And then you can go in the in the chat. You can either in the in the direct message from me to you or even in the public chat, you can just drop some chats in there. So the interface was, you you would have this typical, like, cyberpunk interface of BitChat. So you write slash pay and then the amount in Satoshis and a comment if you like. You press send, and then it it drops this payment blob in the chat that, you know, pops up everywhere and says, like, there's a 200 satoshi payment for you. And you can press redeem, and it ends up in your in your, cash work that is built in into your into your BitChat app. So this is super cool because, first, e cash is better, so we can use Bluetooth to send it around.
But what's also very cool is that the payer still doesn't require Internet to make that payment. Mind you, the receiver needs Internet in that case because otherwise, you cannot prevent double spending. So one of the parties needs Internet, so you're you're kind of leaving this fully offline realm and require at least one person to have Internet, but the other person can pay without Internet. So this it's like this this shop situation. Walk into a store. You buy a shirt. It's, they say, $20, and you just, like, open your wallet, press a button, $20, just immediately drops into the chat. You don't need to be online. It just happens instantly and always works, and it just the payment is done. So, that's that's where where we're trying to go.
[00:52:15] ODELL:
I mean, what people don't realize with that is that is already the standard with traditional mobile pay payments. Like, if you use Apple Pay, the payer actually does not need to be online. Like, if you're in the developing world, you know, you could be, like, in the middle of the jungle. And if someone has an Apple Pay point of sale, your phone doesn't have to have Internet. You tap you you just tap to pay at that point, and the receiver has Internet and is able to then process the payment and confirm the payment. And that's one of the reasons why Apple Pay works so seamlessly when you use it and there's no lag there.
So that's already the standard. Cashew kind of brings that standard into the bill Bitcoin realm. I have a quick question for you. Just in that one use case where you're, like, dropping it into the local group chat, let's say it's a Bitcoin conference, if you're dropping it into the local group chat, that that becomes like a race condition for who tries to redeem it. It's like whoever gets Internet first. Right?
[00:53:16] Calle:
Exactly. Yeah. It's like leaving, little crumbs of of Satoshis in the in the Bluetooth chat and seeing, like, who who gets it first. But, yeah, as you said, like, the the situation where the payer doesn't have Internet but the receiver has Internet is super common. That's the way how, credit cards work. So just like to add on what you said, that's how Apple Pay works. That's also how Google Pay works, but that's also how credit card tap to pay works. And that's, you know, the the reason why Apple Pay and Google Pay works this way is because of the credit cards. And, like, how a credit card, offline Tap two Pay credit card, or your offline Tap two Pay Apple Pay works is by downloading tokens from the Apple Pay server. So it is a little bit similar to how how it works with eCash, actually.
So you you when your phone is online and you have Apple Pay, your phone goes to Apple Pay server and says, like, I have this credit card company x y z, and I'd like to download, like, 20 offline tokens. And then the Apple Pay or Google Pay server gives you these 20 offline tokens. And then you can walk around in the middle of nowhere and just tap your phone. And the reason why it's instant, as you said, is because your phone doesn't need Internet. Just the receiver needs Internet, which is typically a store owner, so they have an Internet connection often. And you're probably like the, mobile phone user who's, like, in the mall without cell connection, but it still works on your phone. And that's because the token that you received while you had Internet that is on your phone just flows directly from your phone via NFC to the payment terminal, and then the payment terminal takes that token, in in the case of Apple Pay and Google Pay, takes that token and sends sends it off to the Internet and says, like, hey. Am I allowed to you know, is this user legit, and can they make a payment and so on and so forth? And then that executes the payment in the back end on the Internet for you. So for eCash, it kinda works the same way, but for Bitcoin and with privacy. And that's, like, the the critical differentiating factor between these payment systems is we can also have tap to pay or offline payer situations for Bitcoin when we use e cash, but plus insane privacy on top of that. So for Apple Pay and Google Pay, the Internet server needs to know who you are because the token that you sent is not the money.
It is like a access key to your credit card, basically, and that needs to hit the Internet and need to identify you. In the case of eCash, the token itself is the representation of the Satoshi, and then you sent that over to the payment terminal. And the payment terminal does one swap with the ecash mint over the Internet, and the payment is done. And the mint doesn't need to know who you are. The receiver doesn't need to know who you are. In fact, no one can figure out who you are because of the privacy properties of ecash itself. So, I'm super bullish on that use case. It is definitely, like, something that we're going to focus more. We do already focus a lot on this. And the fact that you're offline gives you incredible privacy because your phone doesn't need to go online. You you don't even leave a trace like saying, hey. I turned on my phone or something like that.
Like, you don't need to go online. And it's instant because there is no, you know, I need to connect first and, like, get into my PayPal account and log in and, like, wait for the delay and shit like that. Just send over the money, and you're done with it.
[00:56:50] ODELL:
Yeah. So, first off, huge shout out to SoapMiner who zapped 21,000 sats, has great soap. Nice. And is a good support is a is a legendary support of the show. I appreciate your your support. And we have Pablo, who's a legend himself, building in the Nostra ecosystem, who zapped 21,000 saying, I appreciate you, gents. Thank you guys for supporting the show. It really it it means more than the money. As the support comes in, it's it keeps me going. Yeah. On the cash you piece, I mean, this is where it's like all these Freedom Tech projects are, like, coming together. It's like it all compounds and gets super powerful. The offline component I mean, basically, a Cashew token, you can kinda it's just a long string of text. So however you can transmit a long string of text, you can transmit, a Cashew token.
And, I mean, even in a you could imagine a lot of situations where there's, like, a a limited trust environment, where where people can do commerce where both people are offline. And then at some point in the future, the receiver needs to go on online if he doesn't think the person's gonna scam them, and then redeem it at that point. And, I mean, we're already in like, people don't realize, like, you go and you pay with the credit card, like, that merchant can get charged back, like, thirty days later. And that's a way, you know, less trusted environment or is a high it's you don't you know, you go into, like, a J. Crew or something, that random minimum wage employee, does not even know who you are. But if you're in, like, a farmer's market or something and I'm going there every week and I'm paying someone, like, that farmer doesn't necessarily need to be connected to the Internet for, like, four hours or five hours, and then later, he can connect to the Internet and redeem. And if I scam him, like, he'll never sell me meat again. Yeah. Yeah. Proof of punch. If you're close enough to someone, then,
[00:58:53] Calle:
you you the the probability of of scamming getting scammed goes down a lot. But yeah. So if we start comparing ourselves to the fiat system, like, it's gonna be an easy game because, Nice. Like, you know, these in the fiat system, like, it's it's so fucked. It's we we don't even need to start, but let's do it for fun. So, in the in the fiat game, they achieve most of the security in in quotes, security by, by by basically, denying you access to the hardware itself. So you have kind of like a hardware level, trust system. So, yeah, of course. Like, if we wanna, you know, lower the bar that much, we can definitely do the same as well. So in a credit card, for example, when you tap to pay with the credit card, as you said, you don't know how much that terminal is going to deduct from a credit card. Like, there might be a maximum limit, but, like, is it, like, $2, or is it, like, $25, maybe $200, would depending on what your credit card allows. So you you don't control that. The reason why you, in quotes, trust, the payment is because the terminal itself is like a tested hardware that is built by a company that kind of says, trust me, bro. We built a terminal that doesn't rock your users.
Same for the credit card itself. The credit card itself has this chip on it that everyone knows, like this this golden thingy, and there's a CPU inside there. And, basically, what this credit card kind of assumes is that you won't be able to open it up and just disassemble the thing and and take out, like, these these tokens that I talked about before that someone be will be able to see this. So, like, if you say that, okay. We'll we'll trust the hardware to not allow you to double spend or we'll just trust the hardware to not rock the customer, then, yes, we can do all of those things as well. But, obviously, like, that also means that applicability of these systems is super limited. So you need, like, a certified device to receive, credit card payment or at least, you know this has changed a lot in in recent years, and by now, you can also use, like, an Apple phone for it. Obviously, Apple phone is, like, super, walled garden thing, but there there's much more hardware today that supports this. But in in general generally speaking, if you introduce hardware level, safety, then we can do fully offline transactions as well. It basically just depends on whether your phone will allow you to double spend the token that you just spent or not.
But if you approach this from a fully open source perspective, which we do, then we kind of have to assume that anyone can open up everything, and everything is observable. And you can just, you know, you can take the software, you can change it, and then start messing around with the system. So we, kind of, like, try to find a minimal viable, trustless or least amount of trust system that that still works without knowing your counterparty or without having to, you know, stand across them and being reached of of a punch in case, the punch is needed. Right? So for example, Internet applications where you cannot necessarily just, punch someone in the face when they try to rob you.
[01:02:24] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, this is all it's complete game changer. I mean, I wanna talk about first off, we should have mentioned it earlier, but we didn't. So that's on us. But bid chat is not available in the Play Store. So if you're if you're going to the normal App Store on Google and there is a BitChat listed there, that's not the official distribution of it. It might be a scam.
[01:02:51] Calle:
I can't Don't don't download that. That is, like, a big warning sign, and, like, I this is on me. I've been trying to, like, really wrestling with Google. I haven't been able to put it up myself yet, but I'm working on it. So don't download BitChat from the, Play Store as of July 30, which is today. And, as soon as it hits the Play Store in an official way, then you'll know. But for now, you can go to bitjet.free. That's our domain. That's the official domain. And there you find links and resources for the trust trusted, application where you can find it without being afraid of getting scammed. So for the, iOS version, you can go to the Apple App Store. Just search it on your iPhone and download BitChat.
For Android, don't get it from the Play Store just yet. It's a fake guy who took my application and just uploaded it to Google himself, and it's basically impossible to take it down for me at this point, without kind of like, it's it's it's it's terrible. Let's not even get into it, but, yeah, don't get it from there. Get it from the GitHub, which, you find the link on bitchat.free.
[01:04:03] ODELL:
Or you can get it from, the Zapstore. Right? Zapstore.dev, the the Nasr enabled Android App Store.
[01:04:13] Calle:
Unfortunately, it's not there yet. But it is on my list. It is on my list. It's not on Zapstore. I was joking about this because people keep pushing me to to do it. I am going to do it. Don't worry, guys. I'm going to do it. But there's also f droid, which I also need to do. But, like, It's not an f droid either. One thing f at a time. It is nowhere except on or on GitHub. Don't get it anywhere but on GitHub. Okay. So go to bitchat.free,
[01:04:41] ODELL:
which is a, I mean, a a a a weak, kind of a weak domain name, but bitchat.free, and download the APK, and then you can sideload it onto your Android device by just installing the APK. An APK is like a, an Android application file that you can just install any application. It's one of the best parts about Android. I do think it's funny. I see at bitchat.com, it goes to, the domain owner's tweet about owning bitchat.com. So what he has it redirected to right now, which also, I think, just goes to the unexpected hype and excitement that came out of the project.
I mean, Dorsey clearly did not try and secure a domain name before but that's is what it is. Bitchat.free. What I wanted yeah. See, Pablo's like he didn't get bitched at at. Who has bitched at at? No. I I tried. I tried Pablo. I tried,
[01:05:45] Calle:
the Austrians, which is 80. The Austrians don't let you use the, the domain pitch.something.
[01:05:54] ODELL:
Fair enough. They're very buttoned up over there. It's like, maybe I I try and be a friendly tourist, but, when I was in Austria, I was they really did not they really did not like me, specifically in Vienna. I think they're just still salty about losing World War two.
[01:06:14] Calle:
Absolutely.
[01:06:15] ODELL:
I I, so but what I wanted to talk about, but I just wanted the Android disclosure out there before people go download the wrong app, is for those of us watching, I mean, it's it was quite remarkable that you were able to create a native Android app so quickly. I mean, I thought you might have had advanced notice, but it sounds like you didn't even have advanced notice and you were able to make a native Android app and release it within a matter of of days.
[01:06:44] Calle:
That might be one of the single most powerful things about this vibe coding movement. You wanna talk about that process a little bit? Yeah. Definitely. Let's talk about that because that's one of the biggest learnings that I had, while doing like, working on this except for all the things that I learned about Bluetooth. But yeah. So I I didn't know about this before you. I learned about it at the same time. I just sat down and did it, because I've had quite, some experience with AI, but and using using agents, but I think everyone out there could have done so too, or at least if you know a little bit about programming, then kind of you can do it too. And, so I'll dive a bit into the process and what I learned about it. So first of all, what I what I used for it was mainly goose, by block and cursor.
Mostly goose because it allows you to easily switch between models, and the model that I used heavily was mostly Claude, four and, SONNET four. And, the process of it was basically like downloading, Jack's implementation and then exploring it a bit by hand and then using various LMS to first describe the software to me. So I used something with a large context window. I think it must have been probably Gemini, that I started with. It's to just, you know, explore this huge code base. At that point, it was already a big code base, so it's hard to get an overview. Like, what are the features? Give me a summary of what this thing can do. So I get this response from the bot, and I see, like, okay. This is what it can do and so on. And then from there on, I start acting as a project manager, less than like a coder, but a project manager saying like, okay. Now this is a iOS version of our application, and we wanna launch, like, an Android version of our application. We want it to be a 100% compatible with the iOS version. Now before we start coding, let's start with an implementation plan. Like, as as if you would start planning a project to build an app in a in a company, you do you you usually don't just start building it, but you make a plan of all the individual steps that you need to, scratch off, like, one by one. What is we need first to implement, like, the public chat, and, then we need to implement, like, liking things, and then we need to implement, like, that sidebar and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, you make a list of all the things that need to be done step by step.
And what I also do is, I add I I I tell it I tell them about, like, give me a list of things that need to be done and also, like, what are the requirements in that in each step and what what's kind of, what what, requirements, make that step fulfilled, like, let you fulfill that step. So, I get a long list of things that need to be done in order to port this to Android, and I look at the list. And I take that output from an LM, and I start a new one. And with that LM, I talk to as if it's my developer. And, I take my my implementation plan that I that I planned before and give it to that l m, and I say, no. We're starting now with step one.
You know? Like, step one is build the entire, like, foundation of the app. Create all the directories, create all the folders and, files, and and register the app, create, like, a Android manifest and so on. Like, you have maybe you need to know a little bit about Android before, but to be honest, like, you can probably also do it without knowing anything about Android first. And so that's how you start. You do it step by step. The most important thing is that you have a list of things that you wanna work through because LLMs get lost along the way, and you need some way to bring them back to the task that you wanna, make them work on.
So, that was the process, and I did this for a couple of hours back and forth and back and forth looking at the code sometimes. But most of the time in the beginning, I didn't even really look at the code itself. I'm just, like, you know, looking at the results, whether it compiles or not. And if it doesn't compile, the LAM kinda knows that it made a mistake itself and tries to fix it. So, half a day or so goes by doing that. And then at some point, I had, this this working version with the basic features, like, no no direct messages yet, but, like, the group chat, for example, for Android. And it also started to look quite similar to the iOS app because I also told it, like, make it look exactly the same, use the same color scheme, use the same fonts, and so on to make it look the same.
And, you end up with this basic version, and then from there on, you keep improving it. So you do step by step by step by step. You kind of need to know where you wanna go, but as soon as long as you can express this in a meaningful way, the and most of the time can do the can get the job done. So that's how that's how I built BigChat, in the beginning. That's why it went so so quickly because I was basically just 100% vibes and just observing what the thing is doing and trying to kind of steer it in the correct direction. Now mind you, with every Vibe Coded project that I've done so far, and, I've done many of them, like, in the in the last year, and is what you see is that the proportion of Vibe against manual coding goes down as the project matures. It gets more and more complex.
The LMs tend to make more and more mistake over time, and the context gets larger and larger because the project grows. So things get just get more complicated as you go. So, the the need to intervene, by fixing things by hand just grows over time. One more thing I wanna mention here is noise encryption. So BitChat uses, a pretty nifty, handshake, pattern called noise x x handshake. It gives you forward secrecy, which is basically saying, like, if someone, gets access to your phone today, they cannot read all the messages that you're going to write tomorrow or that you have written yesterday. So kind of, like, make sure that even if you get compromised today, that you have secrecy forward and backwards in time.
And, so that used the noise x x handshake. And that part, for example, was just heavily heavily manual coding. So as soon as you get, like, super advanced and there is not much for, the the LLM to draw on knowledge from the Internet, then you need to go in there and become, like, a coder again instead of being just a project manager. But yeah. So as I said, like, the the amount of work, manual work just goes up usually goes up over time. And especially if you don't, you know, if you if you don't be like, if you aren't careful, especially over time as the project grows, you can also maneuver yourself into a dead end where the project just grows and grows and gets bloated and bloated to a point where it just becomes like a complete mess, and it becomes extremely hard to put it into a state again where where it just, you know, it works again or looks nice again or isn't like a complicated mess with lots of dead code that isn't used and so on. So that is something I think you learn as a Vibe coder as you gain more experience. But, like, the first steps is, like, fully Vibe, fully automated, and that's also something that that's also the reason why anyone can do this, especially me. I'm not a front end developer even. Like, I'm not an Android developer, first of all, but I'm not even a front end developer. I'm usually deep in the trenches in the machine room, like, interacting with, command line interfaces at the best and not really good at, like, moving buttons around and so on and so forth. And I don't even know how that works on Android. At this point, I do know. But before that, I didn't really understand exactly how Android front end development works, especially with Kotlin. So I I learned all of that.
Without knowing you can just do things. That's my message. Like, you can just do things, and today you can do things a lot more than than just a year ago. So that that's that's the process. And a slightly more nerdy take, but I think, even more valuable, lesson that I had there is the following that I wanna share with the listeners, especially the the computer scientists that listen. So, as you, said, as you know, there are two big set apps. There's iOS version, by Jack. It is written in Swift. That is the native language for iOS, for iPhones.
And there's the Android version that is written in Kotlin. That is the native programming language for Android. So these are two completely separate projects, that have completely different programming languages. And, you know, I'm not a Kotlin dev, and I'm, like, I'm just gonna assume that Jack is also not a Swift dev, but we were both able to build in programming languages that we're not very familiar with. Obviously, we both know how to program. So, you can just you can use a programming language that you've never used before by relying on AI.
And now here comes the nifty and super interesting part, and I think that's going to change kind of like be an industry changing thing, is usually when you start making an app and you want it to be available on iOS and on Android at the same time, and you're a small team, let's say you're like a start up, you have, like, three people, you have maybe five people, and you just got your seed round, and you have a couple $100 on your bank account, and you wanna build this MVP, and you wanna push it out to the world, and you want it to be available for iOS and Android. What you usually do, and this is very common, is you build a cross platform app first. Because your team is small and your resources are limited and the time that you have is also very limited, what you do is, like, you get the you do the mini min max principle. You're, like, least amount of effort, a maximum amount of result is usually a cross platform app. What's that what does that mean?
For for there are some programming languages out there that work on iOS and Android at the same time. So these might be Kotlin multiplatform or, Flutter or React Native. Those are kind of the popular ones that many companies that get started, they use these languages first, and they build the app in a very small team. Like, could be a single person, maybe two people working on a single app, a single code base. Then you compile it to both Android and iOS, and then you ship your product. And if you grow and if you're successful, then you get more funding, you grow your team. And then at some point, maybe a half a year, maybe a year later, you sit down again and say, now guys, okay. We're now getting serious.
We have some traction. Let's now build a native Android app and a native iOS app side by side because now we have, like, a team of 20 people or something. So, typically, what you would have done before wipe coding is to go that round. First, build a multiplatform app, grow the company, then build two native apps, and then ship that to the world. This is what, for example, I think Uber and, like like, so many companies do exactly that. Now what we've just learned, at least with this experience, is that things are changing a lot in that regard. So what you can do today is you could start the way we did it with BigChat is first, you know, one person goes ahead and builds an iOS app just completely by themselves, completely disregarding Android, just puts out an iOS app. And then a second person or even the same person, doesn't need to be an Android app Android developer, can take this finished software and just put it into an LMM and say, now translate it to native Android. And what would have taken, like, 20 people in your company to maybe or 10 people in your company to build two apps and to maintain two apps at the same at the same time, keep them all with feature parity at the same time, now works with essentially either one person or maybe two per two people. So the the, the barrier to entry to build native apps has dropped significantly.
And this is just because the the language that we share now is not React Native, but it's English. Both of us can speak English, so we can just both compile English to either Swift or to either Kotlin. And so that's how we ended up with two native, implementations of Pitch Hat. And I think this is actually, like this is the game changer. This might be, like, sound a bit, unimportant for those who don't know how you know, who are not into software development. But for those who are working in companies today who who hear this will like, should be super excited about this and maybe also change their plans of how they wanna build their apps because at this point, you can, like, literally just do things so much easier. Especially now I'm gonna, be done with my monologue, I I promise. But especially if you build something with a shared library. Now let's say, we wanna build a Casio wallet, a native Casio wallet for Android and for iOS, and we have this amazing library called CDK that is written in Rust.
So, basically, all of the complicated stuff is already done in Rust, and that's been cared for. Now instead of hiring two people that one building an Android app and one person building an iOS app, what I would do today is probably hire no one and just take the Rust library that we have and build a very slim and thin layer of Kotlin and a thin layer of Swift around it that is just the UI and almost doesn't do anything else, just the UI that is native in that platform language and have a super performant, super native looking, and, like, native feeling app that you usually would have, you know, needed a a large larger team of of software developers for. So extremely excited. Things are changing. I think, like, programmers out there should be, most afraid of what's happening right now.
If you're not using these tools today and you're not in the process of mastering these tools, then, you know, just, you know, think about what's going to be in five years, and think about what a start up will look like in five years and whether, you know, whether you'll be one of the people who keeps their job or one of the people who will lose their job because many of us will lose their jobs. That much is clear. A a a company that has to decide between three Jedis being able to use AI really well or 20 midwits that, still rely on just complete manual coding, they don't care about, like, the how to do your profession correctly.
They care about the efficiency of the operation. And, so this is a kind of a warning sign as well to the developers is learn these tools, learn to use these tools, and especially learn it today because in two years, they will be very different. These tools will change very fast, and you should be, like, out there. You should be on top of all these things and, in like, increase your productivity by multiple x. And, you know, I didn't know what it means to to enter the singularity. I couldn't imagine what it means that a person could 10 x their productivity.
Like, I my mind cannot comprehend what it means to you know, I will never be able to read 10 times as fast or to think 10 times as fast, but I can build code now 10 times as fast. And that's going to change everything. I'm pretty sure about that. Love it. Lovely.
[01:23:13] ODELL:
First off first off, we have Aggie, maintainer and creator of mpub.cash app, 10,000 sads, and he says Cali's bit chat port made me do a one eighty on vibe coding. If you know what you are doing, vibe coding puts you more in the position of a software architect. Modules that are self contained that you can clearly define an interface for are a one shot 99% of the time. Aggie, I have, my signal contact information is on Odell dot x y z. If you wanna come on dispatch sometime, I would love to have you. And we have the tester zapped 42,000 sets.
He says Cashew and Noster will take Bitcoin based payments to the next level. I like how nuts zaps are easier to verify than l n zaps. We just need j p 55 to come around. Cali,
[01:24:00] Calle:
No. We don't.
[01:24:02] ODELL:
We don't. That's the beautiful thing. You don't have to ask permission. Never apologize for your monologues. These are my favorite conversations I have on dispatch. And, I don't know if the freaks have noticed, but a lot of feedback I've received from our past conversations is, to bite my tongue and not interrupt and let just let you run and let you go. And, I will say that I thoroughly enjoy it. Not only do you have a you have a fascinating mind, but also you you, do not like using video. So I get to turn off my video, do some free weight exercises, and just listen to you run, and it's it's a joy from my perspective too.
[01:24:43] Calle:
Great. No. That's on my mind.
[01:24:46] ODELL:
I, well, that's what but I get caught off guard when you end the monologue. Can't unsee. I, what was I gonna say? I was gonna say, I mean, the cool part is so then the user gets the benefits of native apps, and then the developer gets the benefits of cross platform because I think it's really hard to hit scale without cross platform. It's really hard to recommend tools without being able to just blindly say download this app regardless of what platform they're using. When you have to say, like, oh, use Amethyst on Android or on iPhone. It, like, just adds more friction to the recommendation on the conversation.
But when I'm just laughing at the live chat now. But when you have, when when you have cross platform, it just it's just way easier to hit scale. It's way easier to get adoption. So we get the benefits of native, with the benefits of cross platform at the same time. It's just it's just what a time to be alive. It it seems incredibly powerful. So last piece here, because we're going kind of long. But, you and Dorsey and Ravel and Gleason and Jeff, I think I named everybody, have this vibe coding collective, called Android, and other stuff.
[01:26:17] Calle:
Is the goal here It's not a vibe coding collective. No.
[01:26:21] ODELL:
That's, like, definitely what your external messaging has has portrayed it as. So I'm just gonna keep calling it a Vibe Coding Collective until you prove me otherwise. The and he and and Jack specifically seeded it with $10,000,000. Is the goal here for maintenance going forward of BitChat is being handled by that not that organization? Or how is how does like, now that you did it, now that you created a native Android app that's cross compatible with iOS, like, how is BitChat maintenance going forward? Is it completely separate from ant other stuff, or how you think about it?
[01:26:58] Calle:
So, yeah, and and other stuff isn't isn't directly BitChat related. But, so what we are, we're we're a collective, and we wanna build Nostra stuff. And, specifically, we wanna we wanna build, like, high quality Nostra experiences that, that are still that we feel are still lacking. So one of the issues with the Nostril ecosystem, although, like, that is one of the best things about Nostril is that we have so many different things, is the lack of quality of the, of the few things. And one one of the examples of, like, a really high quality product out there is Primal, for example, which, unfortunately or fortunately is a VC funded company. So, I mean, all all all power is that I love. I I I use Primal too. Right? It's a great product. But, Primal, at the end of the day, needs to follow their investors' interests
[01:27:56] ODELL:
too. Like, they are not even I'm the I'm the investor. You don't have to talk about me in the third person.
[01:28:02] Calle:
Well, I I I, you know, I mean, as long as you stay as long as you stay true to yourself, maybe it works out. But generally speaking, the approach has has proven to multiple times that that VC funded projects themselves are not immune to external external influences. And, at some point, there will always be a point where you have to decide whether you're going to maximize the goals of your investor or maximize the original goals that you have set to yourself. So we wanna just break out of that loop and still be able to, like, build a cohesive group of people that work on one thing together. So BitChat itself is independent from that. It has just started, like, completely independent. But as, you know, you know, as I'm working on it and as people as as the cashew people are working on it, obviously, it's going probably going to play a role also in that environment.
But our our original goal with that collective is not is not BitChat itself. So I I will have to keep maintain BitChat, and I will also have to get more, you know, support and people and help from people to keep keep it alive and and make it just work really well. But with, other stuff, we want to, focus mainly on no store experiences. And so we have a couple projects that we already started doing. One of the things that we've built so far was Chorus, which was a, kind of a community forum prototype that we've built, also vibe coded. That's why also the association with vibe coding is so strong. But we put it out in a couple days, to to prove to ourselves how far we can go with, by relying on AI. But we're all very experienced, developers in that collective. So we know what the limits of it are and, how much, you know, vibe versus non vibe is necessary to make software maintainable over time. So, Chorus was was one stepping stone to our larger goal, and our large larger goal essentially is to create a community app experience on top of Nasr that can rival the big tech community platforms as well. So we're not going to build, like, another Twitter clone for Nasr. For now, we're focusing on building a community app platform. So, we we're still it's in the design, and I don't know, like, how much of it was already shared or not. But, essentially, you can think of Chorus, which is like this forum experience as just one single component of what we're trying to aim at.
So we're super frustrated in the collective. We're super frustrated about the different choices of how how you can manage communities today outside of the nostrils sphere. So you can think of, for example, Discord or Slack or, you know, these chat based community apps that are out there. Some of, some of the people out there might have also, you know, set up a matrix server, at some point and know how how much how hard it is to just set that up. And then even if you do so, you cannot take, your identity and just move somewhere else. So there are many problems of, like, peep organizing a group of people that, there are solutions on the Internet right now, and either of those solutions are commercial company funded, like VC funded, or companies that that kind of need to trap you in their ecosystem. I'm talking about, for example, Discord, Microsoft Teams, Slack, and so on.
Or you have, these kind of janky, hard to use and hard to set up systems like Matrix, for example, for your own community. And for us as developers, these are essential tools that we rely on every day. We we use this all the time. Like, we have for for Casio, we have our own matrix server. We unfortunately also use Telegram a lot for community stuff or, like, open community where everyone can just join and start asking questions. But we also use for internal communications, we also use signal a lot. So we we kind of scattered around different platforms and, like, basically, all of them are bad, and none of them, gives us what we need. And so what we want to, focus on, what we have already started working on is a community tool that we adopt, universes. For now, that's the that's the, the the name that we, go with for now is that we wanna build, something that you can set up for yourself, for your community, that you can host yourself, or you can also let others host for you. But it uses NoSir for your identity, so you are you can never be trapped inside that thing. You can always take your community and just move it somewhere else. And in our group of people, so you mentioned, Jeff g, and me, we we bring all the components together to build, like, a really slick and safe and, useful experience. So we have, we have private communications built on white noise and MLS that is going to be, like, integrated into this as well. So you can use it as your replacement for, your signal group or your matrix group, for example.
And, we have Gleeson who's, like, a OG in communities, has built so many platforms already and knows exactly how they behave. And Revel is a is a is a master in UI and UX research, has done, a lot of work also in researching how people use Nostr already. And I'm kind of the money and Bitcoin guy, so, bringing Cashew in there, allowing us to use money within those systems and to allow them to fundraise within those systems and pay each other and and all the, you know, build marketplaces and so on on top of that. So what we are thinking about is not a super app. I wouldn't wanna call it that way, but, like, a competition to community applications that already exist that is built on NoStar that doesn't necessarily feel like NoStar, but allows you to have, like, safe and secure, communication that is extendable and doesn't lock you in. And that's what that's what we're working on. So BitChat might become a a part of that, just because, like, there are several people in the group who who are interested in working on it, but it's not our main focus.
[01:34:45] ODELL:
Okay. I mean, I wanna start with the earlier comments, because this is something that I think about a lot with my two major focuses, which is open SaaS and ten thirty one. So I also came to the conclusion years ago that that VCs were a key part of the problem. And, like, VCs, specifically, like, traditional, you know, hyper successful, massively money deploying VCs were and their incentive structure was was was corrupting a lot of what was being built. And and and specifically but and so so OpenSats actually came first. I mean, 10/31 was in its infancy.
I launched OpenSats, and then after and then and 10/31, actually, the the the two founders of ten thirty one, my partners over there, Grant and Jonathan, were one of the first checks into OpenSats. They helped get us off the ground, because they loved what we were doing. But what what I noticed really quickly was there is just not that much money going around in the open source ecosystem, in the open source charitable ecosystem. Right? And, while that obviously, you know, seems like the best path, charity money that is forever and doesn't come with strings attached.
If you look at the donors, it's just really not that many people. I mean, the open sats, we've raised, like, mid 30,000,000, like, $35,000,000, $36,000,000. Most of that was Jack. I'm very excited for what and other stuff and you guys are doing over there. That was also seeded by Jack with 10,000,000. Probably the most successful sustainable open source freedom focused project is Signal, which was acquired by Twitter in, like, I think, 2011. And then Jack because Jack wanted to encrypt DMs on Twitter. Never encrypted DMs on Twitter, partially probably because of a lot of, like, the VC big money interests, but then, released signal open source. It was previously called TechSecure.
Released that project open source, and then one of the WhatsApp cofounders got mad at the Facebook acquisition and then seeded money into that project. So a lot of the roads lead back to Jack. And so my conclusion has come to the fact that money is what supercharges all of these things. Capital is what supercharges all of these things. And finding now that we have Bitcoin, finding sustainable models for open source projects is really the holy grail. Because if, god forbid, something happens to Jack and that funding stops, where do we sit? And if you wanna, like, think about the scale of something like ten thirty one, which is my for profit venture, we've deployed $200,000,000.
Open SaaS deploys about a million dollars a year a month. We're quite proud of that. I think that's a scale that that most open source charities never have never been able to to grasp. We send it all out in Bitcoin. But still, that dichotomy of $35,000,000 raised versus $200,000,000 raised is, like, completely different. As it's just like on it's just on a whole another scale. So if the goal is sustainable open source projects, I think there's actually a a strong path that can be happened in the for profit world. And Primal is actually a really good example here since you mentioned it. And I appreciate the good words that you mentioned, towards that project because I think Milian and his tiny team of, like, seven people, get a lot of shit, but they're trying to do things the right way. I mean, that project is a completely false stack. Right? Everything they build is open source, and they're trying to be profitable and sustainable with additional with, like, services built on top that are optional.
Right? I think that's the harder path. I think Primal is another good example here where we're the largest investor by far. It's probably just angels that have invested because traditional VC doesn't want to try that path. That's it's the harder path. The harder path is releasing open source software and trying to monetize ethically. They realized there is an issue that needs to be solved. Balaji was just on a 16 z's podcast who's, like, probably a 16 z's like the big evil empire. And what did he shield? He shield forecaster and base because they they can be predatory and and and dump shit coins on retail, and do a bunch of different ad sales and other things there.
But they can't do that on Noster. But he he diagnosed the core part of the problem, which is being able to communicate without permission, and being able to verify things without permission in an AI deep fake type of world. So I just wanna push back a little bit on the idea that something being investment funded is inherently bad. I think profit leads to human flourishing. It leads to sustainability. And at the core, you probably at and other stuff have the same problem. It's like, if you don't find a sustainable business model for these projects, you are gonna be relying on Jack's funding forever to maintain them.
And in our case, if we don't find a sustainable if we don't find sustainable profit or sustainable funding, then us as investors would have to keep funding primal forever, and we don't wanna be in that situation.
[01:40:53] Calle:
I I agree with most of what you said. It's just I I need to make a distinction there. I'm not strictly talking about nonprofit. Right? So it will be the best outcome of this is finding a sustainable business model. And I think this is something, you know, that that just some open source projects have managed, and and and it's certainly a possibility. The big difference, I think, is whether you're kind of in quotes, like, captured from the beginning or not. And yes. So not every open source project can start off with, like, charitable funding.
And, this is also you know, there are lots of projects that that emerge from just funding from OpenSats itself. But the individual, like, projects themselves often have the goal of becoming profitable at some point. Right? So the ratio of what works and what doesn't work, I don't have numbers whether, you know, open source, fully open source, charitable, funded projects have a lower probability of becoming, sustainable at some point or not. But, it doesn't mean that just because you start off with a donation that you cannot find ways to to make profit over the long term. And this is certainly like a possibility with the projects that we're doing with, and other stuff. So we have these different pillars of individual people working on in on on different things. Like, for example, Jeff g is working on white noise. And, obviously, you know, right now, I I'm not sure if they have a profit, motive, or or profit model yet or not. But it certainly is something that, they they can be looking forward to in the in the future. And the same goes also for Casu. Casu right now is a fully nonprofit open source, fully open project that has kind of, lots of contributors funded from various different sources that we're extremely lucky and super help like, thankful for that we are receiving the support in in to in form of grants to individual contributors.
But at some point, you know, there should be a business coming out of this that also can sustain itself because, I don't wanna, you know, bet on, the charitable, outlook. Just the the fact that we can get donations forever. And, and this is what we're already seeing. And, for example, for Cashew, if I can make that example, is there are, maybe now five to six businesses that use Cashew in some way or other, and some of them even use it as their core, you know, product in their in their business. So, protocols can be a platform for businesses to build on top. But I think we both would agree that the protocol itself should, have no other incentives than, increasing freedom and accessibility and, you know, empowering people to build stuff on top of that. So being profitable is not evil, but choosing your investors correctly in the beginning is an extremely hard thing to do.
And most projects, they are not in a position where they can decide who invests in them, and many of them just need to take anything that they are offered. And at some point, this leads to conflict, and it has led to conflict over and over and over again. You have made the examples before. So, whether it's, WhatsApp or or, whatever. Right? So, hopefully, and this is also my hope for Nasr and and for Bitcoin, we are seeing this. Like, on Bitcoin, we're seeing more and more profitable businesses built on top, and I think it's also very hard on Bitcoin. I I don't know what the what the ratio of profitable businesses are, for for ten thirty one, and that might be the same for other VCs as well. So it's just a hard business, and the probability of being profitable is very low. Whether you start off with VC funding or you're bootstrapped by your own money or you start as a nonprofit protocol and then, start a business on top of it. Right?
[01:45:24] ODELL:
No. I mean, like, I agree. I think that was very well said. It's definitely the harder path. I just think it's it's the goal regardless is to try and find sustainable funding in a open system. And, I I, you know, I think, people seeing firsthand trying to raise money for open source projects, it's quite difficult. It's way diff more difficult than people that are not exposed to it realize. And it's some it's definitely the more difficult path. And, I mean, I will just say that on the ten thirty one side, we try and do things differently and practice what we preach, but we're very rare in that front. And most Bitcoin companies, that are trying to build on top of open protocols without, like, vendor lock in and stuff like that have a hell of a time raising.
And that's it's no coincidence that the most of the time I think the the number is, 90% of the time, we're the exclusive investor, because people just aren't willing to take the risk. And I'm well aware that most VCs say this, but we are actually incredibly founder friendly and, make sure that the founders retain control over over their baby and the vision. We're not trying to come in here and push people around and tell them how to do things. We're just here to support where we can.
[01:47:00] Calle:
That that is amazing. And, I mean, both of us, we know that ten thirty one is not representative. Right? So you guys are doing a great job, and you're just different than the rest of the landscape out there. And, like, the amount of bullshit that I get in my inbox is okay. I bet. I'm aware. You should see the bullshit I see. Money on stuff.
[01:47:24] ODELL:
I've the some of the pitches and some of the investor calls I've had are quite infuriating. But, the hard path is, I think, the better path, and we just gotta take it. Anyway, I just I've once again, I just I I consider you a very close friend. I have a ton of respect for you. I'm really grateful to have you building in the ecosystem, and, it's just, I, I just felt I felt the need to push back a little bit that, basically, like, the one major negative we see about primal specifically in the Nasr ecosystem is that they're trying to be profitable and that they've received investment. But I would just add in there just really quick is, like, the amount of investment they've received is is quite negligible compared to who they're trying to compete with.
And we're gonna try and make that money go a long way. Callie, this was awesome rip. I always enjoy our rips. It went longer than I was planning. The family that we have that homeschools their her three sons where my son, my toddler goes, canceled on us today. So I left the wife in charge of the children.
[01:48:48] Calle:
Gotta do what you're doing tomorrow.
[01:48:50] ODELL:
I gotta get back to that. But, I think last time we ripped, we said, like, every six months, we're gonna do, an update. Can we can we continue this trend? I these are my favorite conversations.
[01:49:02] Calle:
Of course. I I love talking to you. I'm very happy to join you again in six months or earlier, whenever it works. Awesome. I'm down I mean, I'm down for earlier once again. I think,
[01:49:13] ODELL:
things are moving quickly in a good way. So let's keep up the momentum. You have any final thoughts, for the listeners before we wrap?
[01:49:26] Calle:
I mean, what I wanna say is just hoping that someone out there is listening and doesn't know what to do with their job or their life and feels inspired by the open source world that we're building. And, I hope that if you're a developer out there and you don't like your corporate job, that you can consider coming into the Bitcoin ecosystem or Nostra ecosystem and, helping us to move this kind of revolutionary project forward. We need every single person who can help. So, if you feel like you can contribute to this in any way, then, talk to me, talk to anyone who, who can show you around, and, we can use anyone who can help us, bring Bitcoin to the world. And I think if, you know, if we're not gonna do it, then no one is going to do it. So, please join us.
[01:50:31] ODELL:
Love it. I just wanna add a little bit of final thought here on the ten thirty one side. I don't think we're gonna make a 16 z obsolete through ideology. I think that, if you build on open protocols, you can actually outperform the centralized walled gardens. It's just a harder path that takes longer. But our plan at ten 31 is to do it the right way and absolutely destroy the returns that a 16 and the others provide to their investors. Freaks, if you still use x, make sure you follow Cali. It's x.com/calibtc. Every time you post, press the retweet button. It goes a long way.
He's our leader over there, and he needs your support.
[01:51:23] Calle:
I'm not a leader.
[01:51:24] ODELL:
I, you're a leader whether you like it or not. Those are the best the best leaders are the ones that don't wanna be a leader. So thank you for your service and your sacrifice.
[01:51:34] Calle:
I, Who knows? That was a difficult thing to say.
[01:51:38] ODELL:
I, we're gonna keep the trend going with dispatches. We're keeping momentum up. All the relevant links are still dispatch.com. Share with your friends and and family. It goes a long way. It's in every every podcast app. Just search dispatch in your favorite podcast app.
[01:51:57] Calle:
Join us because I'm a Bitcoin developer. Come up.
[01:52:02] ODELL:
Or don't maybe do it on the side for a little bit. You know? Get your feet wet. It's kind of a superpower having a separate paycheck while you while you build Freedom Tech on the side. Ask to take advantage of it if you can. Fulfilling life. It's actually fulfilling. There you go. Well, be fulfilled, freaks. Love you all. Stay on bull stack sets. Peace.
[01:52:24] Calle:
Bye.
Bloomberg Intro
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday
Bitchat: Concept and Development
Mesh Networks
Real-World Applications of Mesh Networks
Challenges and Vulnerabilities of Mesh Networks
Adoption Challenges for Mesh Technology
Integrating Cashu with Bitchat
Offline Payments and Privacy with Cashu
Vibe Coding and Development Process
Future of Bitchat and Open Source Funding
Sustainability in Open Source Projects
Final Thoughts and Call to Action
