Ben helped build the widely used Specter Wallet open source project and is now focused on building Bitcoin Keeper, a wallet focused on making self custody easy. Bitcoin Keeper is mobile focused and enables users to start with an easy to use single sig wallet and then upgrade their setup over time.
Ben on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/nprofile1qqs0m9jlx5hyrll66trdzpytkaj0mhj3gmwd8ja7za9kmp7w4m5uwac39jprd
Keeper on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/nprofile1qqsdl3wtt8t7tlcj08xat89853dgzjlnkh7q9e2cgttkw77xn3hvwwgcklwnk
Ben on X: https://x.com/_benkaufman
Keeper on X: https://x.com/bitcoinkeeper_
Bitcoin Keeper: https://bitcoinkeeper.app
EPISODE: 169
BLOCK: 906570
PRICE: 847 sats per dollar
(00:00:01) CNBC Intro
(00:01:45) Happy Bitcoin Monday
(00:03:39) Ben Kaufman
(00:04:09) Specter Wallet
(00:06:28) Bitcoin Keeper
(00:10:20) Multisig and Security Models
(00:16:37) Single Sig vs Multisig
(00:27:56) Inheritance Planning
(00:43:09) Unique Features of Bitcoin Keeper
(00:47:56) Tether Support and Global Use Cases
(00:51:05) Lightning Network and Future Prospects
(00:55:46) State of Bitcoin and Self Custody
Video: https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqs98jmzndqcxxre3yvv9puel3ltpjsudx8n0y20e0ccup6ytmdngtsxy4tmu
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[00:00:02]
Unknown:
So Coinbase, now we're replacing their Wallet app with the Base app. So it's a complete rebrand, a full replacement. It's sort of an everything app they're calling it, which I think we can think of as more of a super app, something, comparable to WeChat in China, which, you and I were just talking about. This kind of super app idea has been the holy grail of fintech for a very long time. So really interesting to see what Coinbase does with it here. And they're really they're really putting the message out toward content creators because, because this is going to be a Web three version of a super app. So they wanna get that decentralization angle in there for creators. It is interesting to see what Coinbase does with the decentralized angle because they're, you know, trying to get into this new, consumer market for people who could benefit from the Web three economy, but might not necessarily be interested in crypto or crypto trading.
So I think that's why they're focusing on creators. They're saying, you know, you're able to control your data and your content in whatever way you want. You do not have to be held to whatever rules the algorithm wants. We'll see.
[00:01:46] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was from CNBC, I believe, earlier today, maybe yesterday. It appears Coinbase is launching a social app that they claim is built on top of Web three. I haven't actually looked into the technical specifics there, but it's gonna have a shitcoin wallet built in, shitcoin trading, social feed like Twitter ish, social games, and USDC zaps, USD token zaps.
Sounds kinda similar to Nasr. I'll buy it in a more dystopian way, probably a less scalable way. Kind of the same vision we're trying to build out at Primal, so I thought it was interesting. Anyway, Freaks, that clip had nothing to do with our episode today. As always, CIL dispatch is free of ads and sponsors. We're supported by viewers like you who support the show with Zaps. Historically, the easiest way you could send Zaps is in our live Nostra stream. That is down for a second week in a row because of a DDoS, a denial of service attack on the servers there.
Our friend Karen is working on fixing that. But you can also support the show through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts, which you can download in your favorite app store. The top zap there, from last week was Blockchain Boog with a thousand sats saying, big fan of PPQ. It's my main driver for AI services. Thanks, Matt. Thank you, sir, for supporting the show. I love the live chat. So even though we don't have the Nostra stream going, we'll be piping in the live chat from Twitch, YouTube, and x. Anyway, freaks, I have my good friend here, Ben Kaufman, long time Bitcoiner, famously built Specter Wallet, helped build Specter Wallet. Now he's focused on building Bitcoin Keeper. How's it going, Ben?
[00:04:01] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Good. Doing well. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:04:05] ODELL:
Good to have you, sir. And it's good to have you building in the Bitcoin space again. I think, a good place to start is, Specter Wallet. So to me, Specter Wallet, rose onto the scene as a free and open source, coordinator for using your hardware wallets easily, whether that was single sig or multisig. What are your thoughts on on on that process, your experience building out that product or that project, and where we stand today?
[00:04:41] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I mean, back when Specter just, just started was, what, 2020. There was basically only Electrum for for, multi sig and using your own node. You had to set up Electrum server. Specter was trying to simplify it. So it was connecting directly to Bitcoin core. So you don't have to set up Electrum server. You could use directly your, your hardware wallet. So it was trying to give you a better interface for everything, basically. And I think it did a pretty good job at that, at the time because well, also, the the only thing in the market was was pretty much Electrum. Right now, you have quite a lot more solutions.
You have Keeper, which we're working on now, but you also have Nunchuk, you have Sparrow, you have Kasa now. So you have quite a few solutions to to choose from.
[00:05:35] ODELL:
Yeah. I think I think Kasa and Unchained might have existed already when Spectre came out. So Sparrow definitely didn't. Indip. I'm not sure. And, yeah, and Unchained had Carvan, but it was also very,
[00:05:47] Ben Kaufman:
in the very beginning, so it didn't have most of the feature that Specter offered.
[00:05:52] ODELL:
Yeah. Specter was like the I mean, besides Electrum was the only real, like, false self hosted way of handling multisig. Yeah. At least in an easy way. Yeah. I mean, p I kids these days don't realize how easy they have it. Yeah. Like, that was on that was only five years ago.
[00:06:13] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's it's amazing the the speed of the progress here because, yeah, just five years ago, like, making multisig was was quite a nightmare. Right now, I can do it in, like, a minute maybe. So it's it's amazing how far we've gone.
[00:06:29] ODELL:
So interesting. So Keeper well, Bitcoin Keeper. What is Bitcoin Keeper? What are you aiming to solve? How do people use it?
[00:06:39] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So Bitcoin Keeper is essentially a wallet that tries to make it easy to secure your Bitcoin for the long term. So from the start, right, from the from when you just start stacking, you need just a hot wallet or something and take you all the way until you need, like, full inheritance planning, multisig, everything. So it tries to give you all the options for all the stages in the way. It's basically an app on your phone. Right? You download it, you set it up, you get a hot wallet immediately. With that, you can then set up Hadoop wallets with it. You can set up multistig. We also have some advanced miniscript features, but the entire idea is to help you secure, everything for for generations, basically.
[00:07:23] ODELL:
So you start with, it starts with single sig on your phone. So someone fresh to Bitcoin, has never self custody before, they can download Bitcoin Keeper from it's on Android and iPhone. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Both. They can just download it from their app store, and then they can create a self custody wallet, just with their phone and send Bitcoin to it. Right?
[00:07:48] Ben Kaufman:
Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. So they can start, very easy. You can set it up and just try it out, with with small amounts just to get used to everything. Then when you want to move on, you can get the Hadoop wallet and connect with it.
[00:08:04] ODELL:
How do you for that single sig wallet, how do you handle backup situation? Is it just using seed phrases?
[00:08:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's with, with seed phrases. So what we do is we have, you have your we call it a recovery key, which is your, like, master seed phrase, let's call it. And then we use b beta five to generate, child seeds. So if you want to have multiple wallets, you can have multiple and pick them up separately if you if you want. If you wanna, like, segregate funds, but you have that single backup seed. Yeah. So you can have, like, a single backup, but also if you want to, like, give out one or keep some separately, both in the like, on the wallets themselves and in this, their backups, you can also do that.
[00:08:48] ODELL:
Awesome. So we have the single sig wallet. That's probably where most users will start. They back it up with the seed. And then you mentioned hardware wallets. How does the hardware wallet support work? Do you support all the majors? Is it QR code based? Is it NFC based? How does that work?
[00:09:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we have everything. Right? So we support all the major ones. I think about 10 or so. We have all the options. Right? So you are a file NFC for those who support that. And then those who support only USB like Ledger or Trezor or Bitbox, we have a desktop app where you can just it's basically it's not a full desktop app right now. It's just a companion app. You download it, and you can connect it via QR to, to your app on your phone. So you can still use hard wallets which require USB connection.
[00:09:41] ODELL:
Because iPhones don't let you just natively connect via USB. It's it's, quite a problem to connect it natively via USB. Yeah. That's pretty clever. I didn't realize that. So and then so what? If they're on their phone and and they're going through that process, does it just direct them to download the desktop app?
[00:10:03] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So if they're, if they're want to use a USB, if they choose USB or if they choose a wallet which a a Huddl Wallet which only supports USB, then, yeah, it will tell them, okay. Download the app, from our website and then follow these steps, basically.
[00:10:18] ODELL:
Got it. And so okay. So the first step is the user is I like the idea of the progression. So to me, it's always been, like, the holy grail is, like, this idea of of a way for a user to start start easy without additional hardware and then upgrade their process over time. So you have the you start with the hot wallet. You start with the wallet on your phone, which is pretty secure, but still not cold storage. And when we talk about cold storage, what we mean is is keys are always held offline and never touch an Internet connected device, which is the single biggest improvement you can make to self custody, because it means that someone can't remotely can't remotely, steal your funds. They have to actually compromise the keys that are offline, and that's why hardware wallets exist. So then you move from that to a hardware wallet, a single sig hardware wallet.
Ideally, you're using one of the better ones. My favorite remains the cold card. You use the cold card. You never actually connect your cold card to the Internet, and you're just using Keeper to effectively coordinate the transaction, set up the transaction, look at your balances, and then you sign with with the offline hardware wallet. Okay. But if you wanna, you know, if you wanna then go even further and improve that setup, you would move to something like Multisig. How how does how do you handle Multisig in Bitcoin keeper?
[00:11:45] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So just as you can set up a single key, you can add more keys and set up multisig. Right? So you can add your keys, whatever. It's a Hadoop wallet or another mobile wallet. Let's say another keeper app on someone else's phone. You can just add that to your app basically and go to the create wallet section. You select the keys that you want, you will select your aquarium, your threshold, and you click create. And basically, that's it. You have the wallet ready.
[00:12:14] ODELL:
And then so you have all then at that point,
[00:12:17] Ben Kaufman:
if I've if this is my third wallet, now I have all those wallets are still in the same app. So you have a list of the wallet here in the app. So you can have your, let's say, your, hot wallet, then your single key, then your multi sig, let's say.
[00:12:30] ODELL:
That's pretty cool.
[00:12:32] Ben Kaufman:
And if you have So quality wallets, then you can have that in the list. Right? So you can have maybe you want to have your own, multisig and you want to have a collaborative wallet with someone else. It will all appear there, basically.
[00:12:45] ODELL:
Right. And so when we talk about multisig, the cool part about multisig is, in that situation, you have multiple hardware wallets. You can keep them in different places, and then you're even more resistant to theft because someone who wants to compromise you has to compromise multiple hardware wallets, and presumably go to these multiple physical locations to do it. But it also works really well for organizations, that don't want, like, the CEO to have full control over the funds. Like, we see this with OpenSats. Our entire treasuries and Bitcoin multisig, and we don't want one single person to be able to take the treasury.
So you mentioned collaborative tools there. So in an organization setup, you have you have situation where maybe the CTO is holding one key, the CFO is holding one key, the CEO is holding one key, or you could imagine a family situation kind of being similar. How do you handle the collaboration element? Because that's always been you know, if you're using something like Sparrow, like, you're sending basically, you're sending these partially signed Bitcoin transactions through, like, signal or something to handle that coordination.
[00:13:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So basically, right now what we did is we basically let you generate, let's call it a magic link where you generate the app generates a link for you where the information is encrypted, saved on our servers encrypted for a few moments. Then you send the link with, which basically contains the key to decrypt it. The users download the content, decrypt it. It's it gets deleted also. And then it's basically in their opens their app with,
[00:14:28] ODELL:
with the Deeply. So that is that that's to set up the wallet at first setup?
[00:14:35] Ben Kaufman:
So this is, whatever you want. Right? So if it's, to share the wallet with them. So let's say they want to share the key with you, so they can share their key with this link. Then if you want to send them the, the descriptor so they can import the wallet on their side, or if you want to send them the transaction to sign or when they send it back after they sign the transaction. So all the old process you can do with with these links. Or you can do with QR, with files. And you give them those options.
[00:15:04] ODELL:
People the user can choose. Yeah. We we give all these options. But let most people will probably choose the link method. So, like, they're setting up their wallet, and they're basically if there's three of us, we're we're the first one sets up to begin with, takes the link, sends it on signal or whatever to the second person. They click the link. They they add their key, then the third person does it. It's like that. Right?
[00:15:30] Ben Kaufman:
Mhmm. Yeah. So pretty much. So when you send the link, it shares the the PSVT behind the scenes. It opens up the app on the other user side. When he clicks the link, it shows him the transaction, the option to sign it. After it signed, it shows him the option to send it back. Right? And then it generates the new link that they send you.
[00:15:49] ODELL:
That's awesome. That's pretty clean. And how do you handle so, like, when someone's choosing multisig, they can do, like, a two of three. So we have three keys, you need two to suspend. They can do three of five. How do you handle that? Is that up to the user? What are your defaults?
[00:16:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's it's up to the user. So we have, like, the the recommendation is to do either a single key at two or three or three or five, but we have the option there. So the user can just choose the, to set it himself, and then, he can choose whatever he wants. That's awesome. Okay.
[00:16:23] ODELL:
While we're here, I'm kind of curious on your opinion on multisig versus single sig, single sig plus passphrase for the average person.
[00:16:38] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So multisig versus single sig like, normal single sig is is pretty straightforward on the on the trade off. I don't think it needs a lot of explanation. So multisig is a lot like more complicated. It needs a bit more setup, but it gives you more security and more redundancy. Right. I don't think this is something that people tend to compare. Really. It's clear that a single key is easier but less secure, less fault tolerant. So the trade offs are very clear. Right. It's just using one key versus two out of three keys. Again, if you need less, if you have, well, not such a large amount that you're saving, you can do with a single key, probably. But if you want to secure life savings or like a treasury of a company, then you definitely want the multi sig.
Then you have the big discussion on multi sig versus single sig with a pass raise. I'm definitely on the camp of multisig and not using a passphrase. I think the only I'll I'll start just with the side of the passphrase. The only benefit I can see from it is the somewhat the obfuscation that you can do. It has a bit of an easier plausible deniability with the with the with regard to the funds. Yeah. Because you're gonna because you could have
[00:18:00] ODELL:
you could have so when you when we're talking about a passphrase is so if when you create single sig, like, the wallet is generating 24 words for you or 12 words depending on your wallet, and then the passphrase is a user generated twenty fifth word. And the cool part about a passphrase is that you can actually have multiple passphrases, and they all are different wallets. So you could theoretically have multiple wallets on the same seed. And in a situation when he when Ben's talking about plausible deniability in a situation where someone's trying to compel you to give up your wallet, you can give them a different passphrase that has a different, amount of funds on it.
Or you can even the regular seed without the pass raise could have funds on it, and the the one with the pass raise could have more funds on it, is what he's referring to with plausible deniability. I mean, Ben, I mean, I kinda wanna dive a little bit deeper into this topic because what I've noticed is recently, you know, with with the rise of these Bitcoin treasury companies, you know, championed by MSTR being by far the leader. There's, like, MSTR and then everybody else. And the ETFs is what a lot of people tend to do in terms of recommending things to people is they're like, you can go on to Charles Schwab, and you can buy one of these ETFs or MSTR or whatever, and that's super easy, and you won't fuck it up. Or if you want a self custody, you have to do multisig, and you have to have this overly complicated setup.
[00:19:42] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. I see this.
[00:19:45] ODELL:
And so so one of my concerns I I've had lately is, like so, like, let's use me as an example, which I hate doing, but let's use me as an example. I'm a public figure in Bitcoin. I have a different threat model than than the average Bitcoiner, and I and I'm also much more technically competent. So I use Multisig, and I specifically use geographically distributed multisig where all the keys are in in one location. And that's, I think, really important for my specific threat model. With OpenSats, we use geographically distributed multisig because we're an organization, and we don't want a single person to have access to the funds.
But for the average person, even if they are holding a larger amount and this is always the nuance of the whole thing because people just say large amount, small amount. Well, what does that even mean? No one knows what the fuck that means. It depends on the person. Even if they're holding a larger amount, like single sig hardware wallet, cold storage, they keep their seat offline. They put a passphrase on that thing. Pretty good security model. Like, I don't think like, it's simple. It's simple. It's straightforward. Pretty good security model. And if you start comparing that to the security model of holding MSTR, it's it can be substantially better depending on your drug model. Like, if you're holding MSTR, you're trusting you're trusting three companies. Right? You're trusting Charles Schwab or whoever your broker is. You're trusting MSTR and Sailor, and then you're trusting whoever their custodian is.
Exactly. Yeah. So it there seems to be to me, it seems to be a false equivalency. Like and that's why I like Bitcoin Keeper is because it does kind of ease them into it.
[00:21:36] Ben Kaufman:
Exactly. Yeah. This is what this is what we're trying to achieve there. So, yeah, of course, that's what I'm saying. You don't have to dive right into multisig. Right? It's never either, MSTR or multisig. Right? There is a lot in between. And, yeah, Multisig is not for everyone, especially not at first. You don't have to start there. You can just start with with a hot wallet at first just to try a little bit, then you buy a harder wallet, then maybe you put a passphrase on it, then maybe you consider multisig. Right? But you have to kind of go through this process and understand a little bit because if I just fraud you free hardware wallets and tell you, like, figure it out If you haven't done any Bitcoin transaction in your life before, that's just not Yeah. You gotta get comfortable with it. Like, no one expects to listen to driving podcasts and then know how to drive. Like, you actually have to get behind the wheel of a car
[00:22:30] ODELL:
and and practice driving before you become competent with driving. But for some reason with Bitcoin, people think like, oh, you can just listen to podcasts or read books or whatever, and then you'll figure out, like, you have to actually use the tools. And I wanna be clear here. Like, I understand why people buy MSTR, and I I think it's for two reasons. I think one is just because of comfort. They're used to using their brokerage account. But I I I think the main reason people the the way people should think about MSTR or at least how I think about MSTR is you're adding risk to your portfolio. You're adding risk to your investment in order to try and outperform Bitcoin.
And to me, that's a completely reasonable gamble or bet that you're making. What I have issue with is people basically offering it up as, a security alternative versus self custody, which I think self custody is actually way more accessible than people ever realize. And I think the concerns for the average person over single SIG are probably drummed up way too high. I mean, if you look at, like, actual numbers on hardware wallet loss, the the great major like, there's very few cases that we've seen of theft. The majority of issues that people have is people making mistake and not securing their backup properly. So if you actually secure those seed words offline and ideally put them in steel, 99% of situations, those funds will remain yours, and they'll be very hard to seize. Like, someone will have to actually come into your house and compel you to hand them over.
[00:24:17] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Most of the risk is, is, let's say, the social engineering, attacks, but it's very unlikely to lose it if you're doing even just single key. Right. If you're doing it well, you're generally very secure. Right. You need to follow general rules. Right. Like just don't trust people. But then they could as easily convince you to give them the password to your Coinbase account or whatever. Right? Right.
[00:24:44] ODELL:
Yeah. When you when you say social engineering, it's like, if someone emails you and pretends to be from Ledger and tells you to enter your seed words onto a web page, they can take your money. Don't do that. Like, own
[00:24:59] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. You have to which is a shame. Careful about Yeah. Just don't trust people in general. Like, just don't trust emails or text messages. Like, Don't trust them. Even if it looks official, just use common sense. If it asks you for your seed or tries to create any urgency, then it's most likely scam. Like, go on dinner and wait a few days, see if there is really people that you trust that are saying that, okay, there is really an issue. But don't give in to the panic. Right? So what scammers will try to do most is try to make you panic because when you panic, you make mistakes.
[00:25:35] ODELL:
Yeah. Take a deep breath.
[00:25:37] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Take a deep breath. Don't stress about it. Just try to figure things out, but calmly.
[00:25:45] ODELL:
Yeah. Yeah. And and specifically, like, the beauty of hardware wallets is it allows you to have this very easy recommendation, which is if if if you're using a hardware wallet, only enter your seed words, your backup words directly into the hardware wallet. 99% of situations that protects you, the scammers are tech are usually trying to get you to enter into a web page, reply to an email, put it into a Telegram chat or something like that. The whole reason the hardware wallet exists is because it's supposed to be where your your private keys are held instead of on the computer. So you wanna put it you wanna put it only into your hardware wallet. With the one exception being, the beauty of seed backups and them being interoperable is if Bitcoin Keeper disappears or if Coldcard disappears or if Ledger disappears, you can then go and recover your funds in another wallet. And in that situation, you might be entering in a spiral on your own accord or whatever. That's one of the coolest parts about seed phrases.
Now back to multisig, the other piece of multisig that is interesting to me so so for me, like, when I do recommendations to people, it's like, start with single sig, get comfortable with single sig. It's the best it's great for 99% of users and 99% of threat models. And when I say threat models, I'm saying, who are you trying to protect yourself against? You have to threat model this is personal responsibility, which makes it everything a little bit more difficult. But who are you trying to protect yourself against? Who might try and take your Bitcoin from you? And what situations are you trying to protect against? So I like single sig, and I really like single sig with the passphrase.
Adds a little bit more complexity of it. Make sure you actually record your pass raise somewhere. I did and somewhere different than your seed because your memory, you can get hit in the head. You can lose your memory. That becomes an issue as well. Don't try and memorize things. Mhmm. Except for short peers if you're, like, crossing a port or something. Multi sig, I really like for organizations. I really like for public figures. I think specifically geographically distributed multi sig. But the other piece of multi sig that's really interesting to me as a parent is inheritance.
So how are you guys because single sig inheritance can be quite simple. Right? You can tell your heirs where your seed phrase is.
[00:28:15] Ben Kaufman:
But the Yeah. But then they know where your seed phrase is. So that's absolutely The the problem is now they've entered your threat model.
[00:28:21] ODELL:
Right? And the problem is not only can they take your funds, but they could be compelled to give the funds away. Right? So it's not an ideal situation. Like, you you can completely trust maybe you can completely trust the error, but they could be fooled or they could be tricked or they could be compelled as well. Like, they don't have to necessarily be malicious themselves. So how do you guys handle inheritance with the multisig?
[00:28:47] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So our inheritance solution is basically mostly based on miniscript. Right? So miniscript is this cool programming language, let's say, for Bitcoin, which allows you to do certain, conditions on the spending, which are more complicated than just a simple multisig. Specifically, it lets you use, what we're using most is time locks for keys. So it lets you say, okay. We have these, let's say these two or three wallet, which is for now, it just has, three keys and you need two of them to sign. But let's say one year from now, it will become a two out of four wallets. So another key will be activated. Right now, this key cannot sign anything, but in one year, it will be part of the quorum.
Or let's say that's what we call an inheritance team keeper. Then you have an emergency key option where it the the new key that will be activated is basically a single spender. So instead of having a two out of four, you'll be you'll have your two out of three normally, and then the extra key can spend, alone. Right? So let's say you lost two let's say you lost all your keys in the multisig for some reason, you can still recover even in that case. So we give options of basically the the idea is a key that has delayed activation that when you give it out to someone, so let's say you give it to your air, they cannot do anything without it right now. But then if some time passes, you don't delay you don't move the the time delay, then it will be activated and they can spend.
[00:30:21] ODELL:
So in that so let's walk through that model, like, in practice. Right? So you have the two of three. You have the two of three, and then the air you're giving the air the fourth key that is activating later, but they still need a they they still need a second key to sign. Is Keeper holding a key in that situation? How does that work?
[00:30:44] Ben Kaufman:
No. So Keeper don't doesn't hold a key. So you can plan your inheritance in a way that, okay, you give one key or they know where one key is and they have the other key. Right. Or you could eventually we want to have a bit more spending conditions there so you can do more things or have more inheritance keys. So let's say you have, let's say you have two out of three, but then you give two inheritance keys to two of your child, let's say. So right now, what you can do, for example, is just give them either an emergency key or let them know where one of your keys are. And then these Right. Cannot spend right now, but can within a year. So I yeah. So I guess in practice, you're giving them two keys ahead of time, but one of them is inert or one of those keys isn't activated until the time line. Yeah. That's yeah. Exactly. So that's if you're using get two auto free. Yes.
[00:31:39] ODELL:
Right. So I me let's say I'm setting it up. I'm setting it up. I'm creating I'm I'm linking three keys to the app. The fourth key is generated by the app, presumably.
[00:31:51] Ben Kaufman:
Right? Or No. But you can only also the fourth key. Right? So that Okay. The fourth key can be at your hardware vault or it can be the app, the keeper app on the other on the Ares phone, for example, but you import that key. Basically, you either scan it, you
[00:32:07] ODELL:
use USB, whatever, but you add this fourth key when you create a wallet. Got it. So I create so I create the wallet with with four hardware wallets, let's say. And I'm giving two to my error, and then I'm hiding or I'm securing the three I have somewhere else. And then if once this time lock expires and how does is that a is that time lock how is that time lock set up? Is that time lock based on, like, the chain? Or
[00:32:40] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So it's, it's using well, we started with, block height. Now we moved to time stamps. But, yes, it's on chain. Right? So everything is secured on chain. Mini script is, is a programming for the Bitcoin script language, and everything that we do is happening on chain. So keep our Was it the time? Paying. Yeah.
[00:33:00] ODELL:
Mhmm. So it's the time since last transaction?
[00:33:05] Ben Kaufman:
So it's, basically the median time after, what is it, the 11 blocks, basically? No. But since my last transaction, like, how does that time lock work? Is it, like, a year after my last transaction? You you create a wallet. So we use an absolute time lock. So okay. So in Bitcoin, there are two types of time locks. Right? There are absolute time locks, which, are set up to a specific date, a specific block height, and there are relative time locks, which start on the, when a transaction is received. They are basically UTXO specific. So what Keeper does, it uses the absolute time locks, which, let you set the date in the future. So let's say we want to set in two years. So it's in two years since the work was created.
[00:33:50] ODELL:
Is there a limit on how far in the future you can set it?
[00:33:54] Ben Kaufman:
No. For absolute time locks, not really. You can set up whatever you want. For the, relative time locks, there is, there is a significant, limitation of, one point, one point three, one point four years.
[00:34:09] ODELL:
So is there is there a trade off there in terms of picking how like, what do you have a recommendation for how long people should let's let's use me as an example again. Like, how, like, how long should the time lock be? I've assume presumably, if I make it longer, if I make it, like, twenty years in the future and I die tomorrow
[00:34:33] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. They'll wait for me to use that key, so that's not a good idea. But also making it, like, one month is also too short because you have in order to renew that, you have to make an on chain transaction.
[00:34:46] ODELL:
You don't want to make an on chain transaction once a month. Right? Oh, is that all I have to do? I don't have to create a new wallet to reset the time lock?
[00:34:54] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So you create a new wallet. It's with the same key. So it's I mean, it's very easy to the the app basically generates the new wallet for you. You don't have to do much, but you need to update the backup, and you need to, make a transaction from the old wallet to the new wallet.
[00:35:11] ODELL:
Got it. Could the like, the app is, like, automating that process for me. But in practice Yeah. The app tries to automate as much as possible. Yeah. If I make it a five year time lock and we're at four and a half years, then I'm going into the app. And in the background, what's happening is a new wallet is being created that's resetting the time lock. But the the user doesn't really but it's using the same key. So
[00:35:35] Ben Kaufman:
yeah. Go on. It uses the same keys. It uses the it just updates to the preference. So let's say you you can choose what the new time loop that you want, whatever it's, another year, five years, whatever. And then it just creates that new wallet. But you don't have to add keys again or choose the keys or choose anything.
[00:35:55] ODELL:
But you said I have to update my backup. What am I updating there? I'm I still have the same seed words for the same hardware wallets. What backup am I updating?
[00:36:04] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So what is getting updated is mostly the, the times. Right? So the backup in this case, in the case of manuscript, it contains also the, the specific time that you chose, right, the specific time stamp that you chose. So let's say you have a key that is activated in two years. That time stamp of two years is also going to appear in your backup. That's because that's needed to generate the address because it's a part of the, of the Bitcoin script. Right? So the Bitcoin script is getting, let's say, translated into an address, which you can also derive from the backup.
[00:36:39] ODELL:
And how does the user keep that backup?
[00:36:43] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So that's with, with, how you would secure the script. Alright? That's another Yeah. Big topic in in Multisig, let's say.
[00:36:50] ODELL:
Yeah. So how do how do how do you handle that in the in the app?
[00:36:55] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So first of all, we allow the user to export it as, either as a PDF or as a file or however they want so they can export it and save it themselves. So we recommend generally to save it with each one of the keys. We also let you save it, encrypted to, to the, iCloud or Google Drive, whatever your iOS or Android, but you can basically enter a password for it and it will save it automatically, to to the cloud. And then we also have an option to save it with with us, with Keeper. So it's also encrypted. It we encrypt it with the app recovery key. So that's like your master seed. And then when you enter and try to recover the app, everything will load in automatically.
[00:37:46] ODELL:
Got it. I was laughing because we have Carlos in the comments. Yeah. I I I didn't think it's saying sometimes dispatch is just Odell's one on one user session with the dev. I mean, I hope you guys find that helpful. It's kinda my style. I, so when you say that so the I mean, that backup is a privacy issue. It's not a security issue. Right? So if somebody gets access to that backup, they they know your balance and they know your transaction history, but they don't they can't actually spend your funds.
[00:38:18] Ben Kaufman:
Exactly. Yeah. They cannot spend anything, but they can know your your balance. So, yeah, you should generally protect it, but it's not, as critical as your keys.
[00:38:28] ODELL:
So you can I mean, so you take that PDF and you print out that PDF, and then you can just store that PDF, ideally in multiple places? Mhmm. Yeah. And is it that PDF has a QR code on it? Is that what it is? So Yeah. So it has you don't have to retype it. Basically.
[00:38:47] Ben Kaufman:
So you can have both options. It doesn't scan the QR for some reason. You can I mean, typing manually would be a nightmare, but if your funds depend on it
[00:38:57] ODELL:
You'll figure it out? The and so that PDF backup means that if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper disappears, you'll be able to still get access to the funds. Right?
[00:39:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. So you don't have to trust us. Everything is compatible with the standards. So if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper is not available and the code disappears from GitHub for some reason, then you can still recover on other services, on other wallets.
[00:39:29] ODELL:
Got it. That's incredibly important. So all of this sounds awesome. It sounds like you guys have gone through painstaking lengths to not require trust, in actual Bitcoin Keeper team and the wallet, in the app. Historically, when that's been the case, it's hard to, you know, necessarily, you know, make money off of the project. And you guys are a company with salaries. How do you how does Bitcoin Keeper make money?
[00:40:10] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we're trying to offer the the app as, let's say, a tier model, a subscription model. So we have the free tier where we offer a lot. We offer you the most of the options. So the multi sig, the single key, hard or wallet, integration, everything. What we offer on the higher tiers are more backup options. So, like, more automated backups, with us, for example. We offer the mini script options on the paid tier, and, yeah, we offer certain features. We offer a server key option also. So we offer most of the features also already on the free tier, but some, stuff for, let's say, for backup and comfort and, like, inheritance, we offer on the on the higher tiers.
[00:41:01] ODELL:
So, what what does that pricing look like?
[00:41:05] Ben Kaufman:
So it's, for the first year, it's, $15 a month, and then the second year is 30 a month. And then we have, basically a full handholding service called Keeper Private where we offer $2,000 where it's basically you have a kid, you have handholding, you have everything.
[00:41:29] ODELL:
Is that per that's per year?
[00:41:32] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. That's per year. That's per year. The the ones that I said yeah. The 2,000 is is per year. Sorry.
[00:41:38] ODELL:
But the other ones were per month. So inheritance is inheritance is under if you wanna use the inheritance features, you got you have to pay $30 a month.
[00:41:46] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. You have the yearly plan for, what, for 300 and 150. But, yeah, you could have to to pay the yearly, the monthly fee, whatever.
[00:41:56] ODELL:
Got it. Cool. I mean, that makes sense to me. It's an ethical way to monetize. Do you have any you said other backup options. Does that include holding a key or something like that? Like, how is that handled?
[00:42:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we offer the server key option where we have, basically, a basically a server key, a key that is on a server, which you can choose spending conditions for. So let's say not spend more than $1,000 in a month or not sign for, or sign with a delay of one week or one month, two weeks, whatever. But, basically, you have these options as well.
[00:42:39] ODELL:
Got it. And that's part of the that's part of the paid tier?
[00:42:43] Ben Kaufman:
Yep. Yeah. That's on the paid tier.
[00:42:46] ODELL:
Got it. Cool. Carlos is asking how big is the Bitcoin keeper team?
[00:42:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So it's, six people, you could say.
[00:42:56] ODELL:
Okay. Nice small lean team. What other do you have is there any other interesting features that would compel someone to use Bitcoin Keeper over the alternatives?
[00:43:09] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I think the manuscript options are very strong and unique, option that we offer so that the user is completely in control, doesn't have to trust us for for backups, for inheritance, but can do everything with their own keys. Besides these, we try we also offer, inheritance documents. So, when you try to plan your inheritance, you want to leave something to the let's say, to your attorney or to your heirs, some set of instructions or an explanation. So we offer that as well, like some certain templates that help you plan that. Besides these, nothing on the top of my head. But there are a lot of small features all around the app that, that try to make it as easy as possible.
[00:44:00] ODELL:
You recently added Tethr support. How does what does that look like? How do you think the user is using that?
[00:44:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So with Tethr, we use, basically a service that is called gas free, which means that you can use, Tether both as the, as the currency and the fee option. So you don't need to hold any shit coins in order to use Tether. This aims mostly for people who who are interested to use Tether and also want to use Bitcoin, but don't really care much about, more shit coins or stuff like that. Just want to have some stability with the dollar, but still use Bitcoin for for most of the things. Right? So kind of have a balance between there. So along with all their other wallets on
[00:44:47] ODELL:
Keeper, there's also they would also have, I guess, like, a a Tether single sig wallet. Right?
[00:44:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So you just have another wallet on the list, which is your Tether wallet if you choose to create it. Yeah. And you can send, you can receive. Yeah. That's that's it. It just tries to make things easier for for people.
[00:45:15] ODELL:
I should just I'm addicted to reading live chat. The Tether. So how is the Tether the Tether wallet is a is that another BIP 85 child seed? Like, you're just keeping your main hot wallet seed and that covers that as well, or how does that work? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's another BIP 85 child seed. So the user's just keeping one seat. It's covering their Bitcoin wallet. It's cover covering their Tether as many Bitcoin wallets as they want and their Tether wallet. How does it work? So Tether's on multiple different chains. Is this, like, cross chain compatible? Can you pay a Tether invoice on Tron is the most popular and then Solana and ETH.
Does it matter which chain you're paying to or receiving from?
[00:46:04] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So right now, we started only on Tron because this is where, like, 50 something percent of FUSDTs. We want to add if, if this feature becomes popular, if you see enough demand, we'll add more chains, so you don't have to worry about which, chain you want to send to or receive from. Also, very important, we want to simplify the whole experience so you can pay everything with the USDT or the fees. So you don't have to think about the the sheet coins or the underlying chain where it's on. But, yeah, we want to to support whatever the users will need.
[00:46:39] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think as Americans, they don't see the value in Tether support. Mhmm. I mean, I've never I've never used Tether. But, like, I I mean, I did a trip to Argentina, and Argentina is a failing currency, and it's very hard to access dollars. And they have a thriving black market currency market there. And we went to one of the brokers, and 98% of their transactions was specifically Tether on Tron. So that that economy has effectively dollarized from the bottom up into Tether on Tron. And what we see is, in practice, the most popular self custody wallet in the world is Trust Wallet by Binance, which is a horrible wallet.
It's a really bad wallet. And but the reason people mainly use it is because it has Tether support, and it has really bad Bitcoin support. So to have a wallet that has good Bitcoin support, a really good Bitcoin support, and then also has usable Tether support, I feel like is a interesting trade off balance that, a lot of international users will, flock to.
[00:47:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely I know that the American market I mean, Americans have great access to the US dollar. Right. I get why don't need tether, but not everyone has the same access to US dollars. Right. Which is still compared to many other currencies. This is the most one of the most stable currencies in the world. Right? And definitely the most liquid. So it's gonna make sense that in many regions, people will need some dollars. Right? I definitely know that Bitcoin well, we all want hyper Bitcoinizations, but it's not gonna happen today. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. There's there needs to be some gradual transfer, from dollar to Bitcoin.
And people who are using currencies which are way worse than the dollar would definitely need this dollar in the meantime.
[00:48:44] ODELL:
Right. And so, do you also, do you also offer swaps between the two? Like, can I if I'm in app, can you easily switch between Tether and Bitcoin?
[00:48:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. That's coming in the next version. So we'll offer the option to swap easily. So if you want to move between them, that should be very easy to win the next version.
[00:49:07] ODELL:
Got it. I mean, that that's the hope. Right? I think, if you wanna see more people use Bitcoin, then having good Bitcoin wallets that offer Tether support is that they come in and start using it for Tether. And then if they can easily switch into Bitcoin for their long term savings, then they'll do that as well. How do you think about I does do you guys support Lightning, and how do you think about Lightning?
[00:49:36] Ben Kaufman:
No. So right now, we don't support lightning. The reason is basically that we're focused more on long term cold storage, like holding savings. And then people just so and all the iteration of the app, which was Hexa Wallet did have lightning support, but they kind of realized that people want some separation between the money that they're spending and the money that they're saving. Right? So Keeper is starting to be more of a savings up and not so much the spending up. Maybe in the future, we'll we'll consider adding it. But right now, we we're not, adding Lightning.
[00:50:14] ODELL:
That makes sense to me. It's also just it's hard to do it's hard to do self custody Lightning, in a easy UX way. Have you and so, like, it makes sense to me to, like, have a focus and a a differentiation between apps. Right? So, like, the the user can download Phoenix. They can download Zeus. They can use that for their lightning wallet, and then they can use Bitcoin Keeper for, on chain. And I think that's a completely reasonable balance for users to make. And then each each respective app can focus on their strengths rather than try and put it all into one app. Have you I mean, while I have you here, you're one of the more interesting technical minds in Bitcoin. Have you explored, the different concepts around trying to make, self custody lightning easier, whether that's, quote, unquote, self custody lightning easier, whether that's Spark from LightSpark or Arc?
Have you looked into that at all?
[00:51:23] Ben Kaufman:
I really saw all the time I've focused ever since Specter, I've focused on, self custody more for the long term. Right? So savings, large funds. And I haven't really used Lightning so much, from the, from work perspective, right, from development perspective. So, no, I don't know these solutions enough to to talk about them.
[00:51:47] ODELL:
Got it. Fair enough. I mean, yeah, I've I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's beta, which they're using Spark, which is, I guess, a fork of Mercury layer, which is like a swap chain. I haven't, like, really looked into the, like, deep technical details behind it. But, like, UX wise, it works really well. Trust model wise, it's, like, not quite self custody, but maybe it's good enough for people. Maybe it's good enough for regulators, which is really the key thing I think they're trying to get around.
[00:52:34] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. For people who think if you I mean, lightning is not really for for storing your life savings. Right? Right. So it's really not the end of the world, to to have some trust there. For for small funds, like, the the trust model can be a bit different.
[00:52:53] ODELL:
Yeah. And I think it's just a lot of it is just trying to get around KYC regulation. And if it's quote unquote self custody enough, for regulators, then maybe maybe it makes sense. But I will say from a from a UX point of view, it worked it worked quite well. And from my understanding of the trust model is basically, you're trusting that LightSpark isn't gonna act maliciously. If they wanted to act maliciously, they could be party to the swaps and then could spend your funds. Okay. Awesome. I mean, Ben, while I have you here as well, like, so what are your current thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin?
Are you optimistic about where we're at? The state of self custody versus, like, the paper Bitcoin products? How do you think about all of that?
[00:53:46] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I mean, things definitely feel quite good right now very near the whole the all time high. Right? So there is quite a good feeling all around the the space. But, yeah, generally, everything is going towards, the financialization of Bitcoin. Right? It's going to towards the paper Bitcoin and not as much towards the, self custody, hardcore Bitcoiners that that we used to have back, a few years ago. So yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of a good and a bad. Right? We we all knew that Bitcoin is going way higher. We all knew that Bitcoin is is going to to succeed, but it's kind of losing some of the cultural aspects that it used to have.
[00:54:34] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that was probably always gonna happen. I think this is, like, the path of Bitcoin adoption that was most likely. I mean, I and I yeah.
[00:54:47] Ben Kaufman:
Go on. No. It it's not that it doesn't make sense. Like, it was kind of expected, but it's still, it's not the best to see how how things are happening and going towards all the paper Bitcoin and not, people just stopping to care about sort of custody. It's it's a bit risky overall eventually. But, yeah, I mean, we cannot really stop that. The most that we can do, I guess, is to try and educate people.
[00:55:17] ODELL:
Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, I think I think look. People are gonna use Bitcoin in different ways. You might not agree with all the people might not agree with all the ways they use Bitcoin. That's the whole point of Bitcoin. I think that the bullish the the bullish takeaway is that we have more people than ever using Bitcoin as freedom money and using it in self custody way. Percentage wise, it's it's significantly down, but, absolute number wise, like, the actual number of people is is higher. And the tools are clearly getting better. I mean, we started this conversation talking about, the environment Specter Wallet appeared in five years ago.
And it's never been easier than today to actually self custody Bitcoin and use it in a freedom oriented way, which is pretty beautiful to see.
[00:56:05] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's always getting better. I'm pretty excited to see where it will be in five years because in the last five years, we've gone so far. Right? And I'm sure, like, people that were here, you know, 02/2013, for example, in 2020, they had tools which were much better than back then. Right? Now we have tools that are much better than '20, than 2020. Right? So I'm excited to see what's coming in the next few years, really.
[00:56:33] ODELL:
Yeah. I agree. The future is bright. Ben, Carlos is working overtime as a cohost of the show, and he brought up a point that I did wanna bring up. How do you guy Keeper Wall Bitcoin Keeper, how do you guys think about, social recovery?
[00:56:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we have certain thoughts on social recovery in the future, but nothing immediate. We are working I can say we are working to integrate a contact feature into Keeper, which will basically allow more features, including social recovery in the future. But, yeah, first of all, we want to introduce this contact option so you can kind of interact with people. For example, instead of using the links for everything, that I mentioned, you can you will be able to do it even more easily just within the apps and messages, within the app that can integrate with the wallets.
[00:57:31] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, I you can kinda think of, the mini script features as a social recovery layer as well, because instead of the air instead of the air having the recovery keys, you could have, you know, your best friend or your uncle or something like that hold hold those recovery keys. It doesn't necessarily have to be the air.
[00:57:55] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly.
[00:57:56] ODELL:
I mean, social recovery is interesting. Right? Because it's one of those things that has been thrown around in Bitcoin project and product circles for fucking years. And in in a in a theoretical world, it seems great. Right? It's like, okay. You're taking on personal responsibility. You're holding self custody Bitcoin. But if you mess it up, you know, a threshold of your friends or confidants or people you trust can help you recover your wallet. But then doing it in both a secure way and an easy way is very difficult problem to solve. Like, I haven't seen anyone successfully solve it yet.
Bitkey is kinda close. They have their own trade off model that they're battling with or they're offering to the market, I guess, which I think can be compelling for certain people depending on their threat model. But Big Key is more like to me, like, the way I look at Big Key is, is not trying to solve the same problem that typical hardware wallets have tried to solve over the years. Like, a typical hardware wallet is trying to solve strictly the security problem in protecting your Bitcoin. Well, Big Key is more more introducing hardware and multisig into the mix to make it harder for you to lose your Bitcoin and and make a mistake. Like, it's trying to solve that problem more than actual securing yourself in a more hardened way, offline way.
And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from people, like, comparing, like, a Bitkey to a cold card, for instance. I think they're trying to solve two very different problems and take two very distinct trade off balances there.
[00:59:32] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. It's always about trade offs, really. So
[00:59:36] ODELL:
yeah. But that I mean, that goes really hand in hand, I think, with the social recovery stuff. Right? Because it's like, when you try and do the social recovery in an easy way, it's hard to do it in in the most secure way, and then you have this whole balance. But then, like I said, now I'm kinda ranting, but the manuscript component is really interesting and compelling. It's it's definitely,
[00:59:56] Ben Kaufman:
one of the features for, let's call it, a social recovery option, right, Where you can keep out keys but don't trust people. And again, it's always a trade off. If you want a solution that is secure, of course, it would be harder to use. It is kind of by design because if something is very easy, then it would be easy to access. Right. And making something that is very secure but also very easy to use, it's simply hard. Right? It's a difficult problem. So we try to get it better. We try to make it better all the time, and it's way better than it used to be. But it's still obviously, there are trade offs.
[01:00:33] ODELL:
Yeah. Ben, this was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I should actually play around with Bitcoin Keeper and put it through its paces. And when I do, I'll give you some feedback. Yeah. But directionally, it seems like you guys are onto something. It seems, like a pretty pretty compelling feature set there. So thank you for that. Do you have any final thoughts, for the audience before we wrap?
[01:01:03] Ben Kaufman:
No. Just generally try you can try to use Bitcoin keeper again. It's free, so you can just download it, create the wallet, and play with it. You don't have to register. We don't ask for any personal information, and you can just play with it and see what you think.
[01:01:19] ODELL:
Love it. And, the the website is is it bitcoinkeeper.app?
[01:01:25] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Bitcoinkeeper.app.
[01:01:27] ODELL:
Or they can just search it on their app store, bitcoin keeper.
[01:01:30] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Also on the app store, bitcoin keeper, you can find this in the, on the website. You can find it on on x on Twitter.
[01:01:40] ODELL:
Awesome. I mean, I tried to keep this episode accessible because your app is attempting to be accessible to new users. I don't know how successful I was at that. Historically, dispatch has a lot more technical listeners. To the technical listeners that might be playing around with the app and wanna give you feedback, what's the best way for them to give you technical feedback?
[01:02:02] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So first of all, you can reach us, through the app. Right? So we have a whole chat system, like a support ticketing system from the app, because we used to we still have a Telegram group, but then it's, Telegram is just,
[01:02:18] ODELL:
has too many scams, basically. It's and it's very It's a mess.
[01:02:22] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's a mess. Exactly. So we implemented a chat, at ticketing support through the app so you can reach us more securely. And you can always reach me on on Twitter. So my DMs are open, and they try to respond all the time.
[01:02:37] ODELL:
Awesome. I'll put all the links in the show notes. Ben, thank you for joining us.
[01:02:42] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Thank you for inviting.
[01:02:44] ODELL:
Freaks, especially those of you in the live chat. Thank you for joining. You guys make the show unique. Kieran promised me he's gonna make sure the Nostra chat is up and live sometime soon. In general, I will just, take one for the team and say that the Nostra ecosystem in general needs to have better video streaming support, video watching support, all video stuff. I mean, I I think I think it's somewhere where we can really excel and we need to lean into it. So I will take partial responsibility for it not being at a stable, reliable, robust position right now. But, we're making progress and we're making progress quickly.
So I think we'll be in a much better place soon. And then last but not least, freaks who support the show with Sats. Thank you. All the relevant links are at silldispatch.com. Share with your friends and family. It really does go a long way. Leave a review in your favorite app store. It helps. But thank you all. Stay humble. Peace.
So Coinbase, now we're replacing their Wallet app with the Base app. So it's a complete rebrand, a full replacement. It's sort of an everything app they're calling it, which I think we can think of as more of a super app, something, comparable to WeChat in China, which, you and I were just talking about. This kind of super app idea has been the holy grail of fintech for a very long time. So really interesting to see what Coinbase does with it here. And they're really they're really putting the message out toward content creators because, because this is going to be a Web three version of a super app. So they wanna get that decentralization angle in there for creators. It is interesting to see what Coinbase does with the decentralized angle because they're, you know, trying to get into this new, consumer market for people who could benefit from the Web three economy, but might not necessarily be interested in crypto or crypto trading.
So I think that's why they're focusing on creators. They're saying, you know, you're able to control your data and your content in whatever way you want. You do not have to be held to whatever rules the algorithm wants. We'll see.
[00:01:46] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was from CNBC, I believe, earlier today, maybe yesterday. It appears Coinbase is launching a social app that they claim is built on top of Web three. I haven't actually looked into the technical specifics there, but it's gonna have a shitcoin wallet built in, shitcoin trading, social feed like Twitter ish, social games, and USDC zaps, USD token zaps.
Sounds kinda similar to Nasr. I'll buy it in a more dystopian way, probably a less scalable way. Kind of the same vision we're trying to build out at Primal, so I thought it was interesting. Anyway, Freaks, that clip had nothing to do with our episode today. As always, CIL dispatch is free of ads and sponsors. We're supported by viewers like you who support the show with Zaps. Historically, the easiest way you could send Zaps is in our live Nostra stream. That is down for a second week in a row because of a DDoS, a denial of service attack on the servers there.
Our friend Karen is working on fixing that. But you can also support the show through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts, which you can download in your favorite app store. The top zap there, from last week was Blockchain Boog with a thousand sats saying, big fan of PPQ. It's my main driver for AI services. Thanks, Matt. Thank you, sir, for supporting the show. I love the live chat. So even though we don't have the Nostra stream going, we'll be piping in the live chat from Twitch, YouTube, and x. Anyway, freaks, I have my good friend here, Ben Kaufman, long time Bitcoiner, famously built Specter Wallet, helped build Specter Wallet. Now he's focused on building Bitcoin Keeper. How's it going, Ben?
[00:04:01] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Good. Doing well. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:04:05] ODELL:
Good to have you, sir. And it's good to have you building in the Bitcoin space again. I think, a good place to start is, Specter Wallet. So to me, Specter Wallet, rose onto the scene as a free and open source, coordinator for using your hardware wallets easily, whether that was single sig or multisig. What are your thoughts on on on that process, your experience building out that product or that project, and where we stand today?
[00:04:41] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I mean, back when Specter just, just started was, what, 2020. There was basically only Electrum for for, multi sig and using your own node. You had to set up Electrum server. Specter was trying to simplify it. So it was connecting directly to Bitcoin core. So you don't have to set up Electrum server. You could use directly your, your hardware wallet. So it was trying to give you a better interface for everything, basically. And I think it did a pretty good job at that, at the time because well, also, the the only thing in the market was was pretty much Electrum. Right now, you have quite a lot more solutions.
You have Keeper, which we're working on now, but you also have Nunchuk, you have Sparrow, you have Kasa now. So you have quite a few solutions to to choose from.
[00:05:35] ODELL:
Yeah. I think I think Kasa and Unchained might have existed already when Spectre came out. So Sparrow definitely didn't. Indip. I'm not sure. And, yeah, and Unchained had Carvan, but it was also very,
[00:05:47] Ben Kaufman:
in the very beginning, so it didn't have most of the feature that Specter offered.
[00:05:52] ODELL:
Yeah. Specter was like the I mean, besides Electrum was the only real, like, false self hosted way of handling multisig. Yeah. At least in an easy way. Yeah. I mean, p I kids these days don't realize how easy they have it. Yeah. Like, that was on that was only five years ago.
[00:06:13] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's it's amazing the the speed of the progress here because, yeah, just five years ago, like, making multisig was was quite a nightmare. Right now, I can do it in, like, a minute maybe. So it's it's amazing how far we've gone.
[00:06:29] ODELL:
So interesting. So Keeper well, Bitcoin Keeper. What is Bitcoin Keeper? What are you aiming to solve? How do people use it?
[00:06:39] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So Bitcoin Keeper is essentially a wallet that tries to make it easy to secure your Bitcoin for the long term. So from the start, right, from the from when you just start stacking, you need just a hot wallet or something and take you all the way until you need, like, full inheritance planning, multisig, everything. So it tries to give you all the options for all the stages in the way. It's basically an app on your phone. Right? You download it, you set it up, you get a hot wallet immediately. With that, you can then set up Hadoop wallets with it. You can set up multistig. We also have some advanced miniscript features, but the entire idea is to help you secure, everything for for generations, basically.
[00:07:23] ODELL:
So you start with, it starts with single sig on your phone. So someone fresh to Bitcoin, has never self custody before, they can download Bitcoin Keeper from it's on Android and iPhone. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Both. They can just download it from their app store, and then they can create a self custody wallet, just with their phone and send Bitcoin to it. Right?
[00:07:48] Ben Kaufman:
Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. So they can start, very easy. You can set it up and just try it out, with with small amounts just to get used to everything. Then when you want to move on, you can get the Hadoop wallet and connect with it.
[00:08:04] ODELL:
How do you for that single sig wallet, how do you handle backup situation? Is it just using seed phrases?
[00:08:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's with, with seed phrases. So what we do is we have, you have your we call it a recovery key, which is your, like, master seed phrase, let's call it. And then we use b beta five to generate, child seeds. So if you want to have multiple wallets, you can have multiple and pick them up separately if you if you want. If you wanna, like, segregate funds, but you have that single backup seed. Yeah. So you can have, like, a single backup, but also if you want to, like, give out one or keep some separately, both in the like, on the wallets themselves and in this, their backups, you can also do that.
[00:08:48] ODELL:
Awesome. So we have the single sig wallet. That's probably where most users will start. They back it up with the seed. And then you mentioned hardware wallets. How does the hardware wallet support work? Do you support all the majors? Is it QR code based? Is it NFC based? How does that work?
[00:09:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we have everything. Right? So we support all the major ones. I think about 10 or so. We have all the options. Right? So you are a file NFC for those who support that. And then those who support only USB like Ledger or Trezor or Bitbox, we have a desktop app where you can just it's basically it's not a full desktop app right now. It's just a companion app. You download it, and you can connect it via QR to, to your app on your phone. So you can still use hard wallets which require USB connection.
[00:09:41] ODELL:
Because iPhones don't let you just natively connect via USB. It's it's, quite a problem to connect it natively via USB. Yeah. That's pretty clever. I didn't realize that. So and then so what? If they're on their phone and and they're going through that process, does it just direct them to download the desktop app?
[00:10:03] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So if they're, if they're want to use a USB, if they choose USB or if they choose a wallet which a a Huddl Wallet which only supports USB, then, yeah, it will tell them, okay. Download the app, from our website and then follow these steps, basically.
[00:10:18] ODELL:
Got it. And so okay. So the first step is the user is I like the idea of the progression. So to me, it's always been, like, the holy grail is, like, this idea of of a way for a user to start start easy without additional hardware and then upgrade their process over time. So you have the you start with the hot wallet. You start with the wallet on your phone, which is pretty secure, but still not cold storage. And when we talk about cold storage, what we mean is is keys are always held offline and never touch an Internet connected device, which is the single biggest improvement you can make to self custody, because it means that someone can't remotely can't remotely, steal your funds. They have to actually compromise the keys that are offline, and that's why hardware wallets exist. So then you move from that to a hardware wallet, a single sig hardware wallet.
Ideally, you're using one of the better ones. My favorite remains the cold card. You use the cold card. You never actually connect your cold card to the Internet, and you're just using Keeper to effectively coordinate the transaction, set up the transaction, look at your balances, and then you sign with with the offline hardware wallet. Okay. But if you wanna, you know, if you wanna then go even further and improve that setup, you would move to something like Multisig. How how does how do you handle Multisig in Bitcoin keeper?
[00:11:45] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So just as you can set up a single key, you can add more keys and set up multisig. Right? So you can add your keys, whatever. It's a Hadoop wallet or another mobile wallet. Let's say another keeper app on someone else's phone. You can just add that to your app basically and go to the create wallet section. You select the keys that you want, you will select your aquarium, your threshold, and you click create. And basically, that's it. You have the wallet ready.
[00:12:14] ODELL:
And then so you have all then at that point,
[00:12:17] Ben Kaufman:
if I've if this is my third wallet, now I have all those wallets are still in the same app. So you have a list of the wallet here in the app. So you can have your, let's say, your, hot wallet, then your single key, then your multi sig, let's say.
[00:12:30] ODELL:
That's pretty cool.
[00:12:32] Ben Kaufman:
And if you have So quality wallets, then you can have that in the list. Right? So you can have maybe you want to have your own, multisig and you want to have a collaborative wallet with someone else. It will all appear there, basically.
[00:12:45] ODELL:
Right. And so when we talk about multisig, the cool part about multisig is, in that situation, you have multiple hardware wallets. You can keep them in different places, and then you're even more resistant to theft because someone who wants to compromise you has to compromise multiple hardware wallets, and presumably go to these multiple physical locations to do it. But it also works really well for organizations, that don't want, like, the CEO to have full control over the funds. Like, we see this with OpenSats. Our entire treasuries and Bitcoin multisig, and we don't want one single person to be able to take the treasury.
So you mentioned collaborative tools there. So in an organization setup, you have you have situation where maybe the CTO is holding one key, the CFO is holding one key, the CEO is holding one key, or you could imagine a family situation kind of being similar. How do you handle the collaboration element? Because that's always been you know, if you're using something like Sparrow, like, you're sending basically, you're sending these partially signed Bitcoin transactions through, like, signal or something to handle that coordination.
[00:13:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So basically, right now what we did is we basically let you generate, let's call it a magic link where you generate the app generates a link for you where the information is encrypted, saved on our servers encrypted for a few moments. Then you send the link with, which basically contains the key to decrypt it. The users download the content, decrypt it. It's it gets deleted also. And then it's basically in their opens their app with,
[00:14:28] ODELL:
with the Deeply. So that is that that's to set up the wallet at first setup?
[00:14:35] Ben Kaufman:
So this is, whatever you want. Right? So if it's, to share the wallet with them. So let's say they want to share the key with you, so they can share their key with this link. Then if you want to send them the, the descriptor so they can import the wallet on their side, or if you want to send them the transaction to sign or when they send it back after they sign the transaction. So all the old process you can do with with these links. Or you can do with QR, with files. And you give them those options.
[00:15:04] ODELL:
People the user can choose. Yeah. We we give all these options. But let most people will probably choose the link method. So, like, they're setting up their wallet, and they're basically if there's three of us, we're we're the first one sets up to begin with, takes the link, sends it on signal or whatever to the second person. They click the link. They they add their key, then the third person does it. It's like that. Right?
[00:15:30] Ben Kaufman:
Mhmm. Yeah. So pretty much. So when you send the link, it shares the the PSVT behind the scenes. It opens up the app on the other user side. When he clicks the link, it shows him the transaction, the option to sign it. After it signed, it shows him the option to send it back. Right? And then it generates the new link that they send you.
[00:15:49] ODELL:
That's awesome. That's pretty clean. And how do you handle so, like, when someone's choosing multisig, they can do, like, a two of three. So we have three keys, you need two to suspend. They can do three of five. How do you handle that? Is that up to the user? What are your defaults?
[00:16:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's it's up to the user. So we have, like, the the recommendation is to do either a single key at two or three or three or five, but we have the option there. So the user can just choose the, to set it himself, and then, he can choose whatever he wants. That's awesome. Okay.
[00:16:23] ODELL:
While we're here, I'm kind of curious on your opinion on multisig versus single sig, single sig plus passphrase for the average person.
[00:16:38] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So multisig versus single sig like, normal single sig is is pretty straightforward on the on the trade off. I don't think it needs a lot of explanation. So multisig is a lot like more complicated. It needs a bit more setup, but it gives you more security and more redundancy. Right. I don't think this is something that people tend to compare. Really. It's clear that a single key is easier but less secure, less fault tolerant. So the trade offs are very clear. Right. It's just using one key versus two out of three keys. Again, if you need less, if you have, well, not such a large amount that you're saving, you can do with a single key, probably. But if you want to secure life savings or like a treasury of a company, then you definitely want the multi sig.
Then you have the big discussion on multi sig versus single sig with a pass raise. I'm definitely on the camp of multisig and not using a passphrase. I think the only I'll I'll start just with the side of the passphrase. The only benefit I can see from it is the somewhat the obfuscation that you can do. It has a bit of an easier plausible deniability with the with the with regard to the funds. Yeah. Because you're gonna because you could have
[00:18:00] ODELL:
you could have so when you when we're talking about a passphrase is so if when you create single sig, like, the wallet is generating 24 words for you or 12 words depending on your wallet, and then the passphrase is a user generated twenty fifth word. And the cool part about a passphrase is that you can actually have multiple passphrases, and they all are different wallets. So you could theoretically have multiple wallets on the same seed. And in a situation when he when Ben's talking about plausible deniability in a situation where someone's trying to compel you to give up your wallet, you can give them a different passphrase that has a different, amount of funds on it.
Or you can even the regular seed without the pass raise could have funds on it, and the the one with the pass raise could have more funds on it, is what he's referring to with plausible deniability. I mean, Ben, I mean, I kinda wanna dive a little bit deeper into this topic because what I've noticed is recently, you know, with with the rise of these Bitcoin treasury companies, you know, championed by MSTR being by far the leader. There's, like, MSTR and then everybody else. And the ETFs is what a lot of people tend to do in terms of recommending things to people is they're like, you can go on to Charles Schwab, and you can buy one of these ETFs or MSTR or whatever, and that's super easy, and you won't fuck it up. Or if you want a self custody, you have to do multisig, and you have to have this overly complicated setup.
[00:19:42] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. I see this.
[00:19:45] ODELL:
And so so one of my concerns I I've had lately is, like so, like, let's use me as an example, which I hate doing, but let's use me as an example. I'm a public figure in Bitcoin. I have a different threat model than than the average Bitcoiner, and I and I'm also much more technically competent. So I use Multisig, and I specifically use geographically distributed multisig where all the keys are in in one location. And that's, I think, really important for my specific threat model. With OpenSats, we use geographically distributed multisig because we're an organization, and we don't want a single person to have access to the funds.
But for the average person, even if they are holding a larger amount and this is always the nuance of the whole thing because people just say large amount, small amount. Well, what does that even mean? No one knows what the fuck that means. It depends on the person. Even if they're holding a larger amount, like single sig hardware wallet, cold storage, they keep their seat offline. They put a passphrase on that thing. Pretty good security model. Like, I don't think like, it's simple. It's simple. It's straightforward. Pretty good security model. And if you start comparing that to the security model of holding MSTR, it's it can be substantially better depending on your drug model. Like, if you're holding MSTR, you're trusting you're trusting three companies. Right? You're trusting Charles Schwab or whoever your broker is. You're trusting MSTR and Sailor, and then you're trusting whoever their custodian is.
Exactly. Yeah. So it there seems to be to me, it seems to be a false equivalency. Like and that's why I like Bitcoin Keeper is because it does kind of ease them into it.
[00:21:36] Ben Kaufman:
Exactly. Yeah. This is what this is what we're trying to achieve there. So, yeah, of course, that's what I'm saying. You don't have to dive right into multisig. Right? It's never either, MSTR or multisig. Right? There is a lot in between. And, yeah, Multisig is not for everyone, especially not at first. You don't have to start there. You can just start with with a hot wallet at first just to try a little bit, then you buy a harder wallet, then maybe you put a passphrase on it, then maybe you consider multisig. Right? But you have to kind of go through this process and understand a little bit because if I just fraud you free hardware wallets and tell you, like, figure it out If you haven't done any Bitcoin transaction in your life before, that's just not Yeah. You gotta get comfortable with it. Like, no one expects to listen to driving podcasts and then know how to drive. Like, you actually have to get behind the wheel of a car
[00:22:30] ODELL:
and and practice driving before you become competent with driving. But for some reason with Bitcoin, people think like, oh, you can just listen to podcasts or read books or whatever, and then you'll figure out, like, you have to actually use the tools. And I wanna be clear here. Like, I understand why people buy MSTR, and I I think it's for two reasons. I think one is just because of comfort. They're used to using their brokerage account. But I I I think the main reason people the the way people should think about MSTR or at least how I think about MSTR is you're adding risk to your portfolio. You're adding risk to your investment in order to try and outperform Bitcoin.
And to me, that's a completely reasonable gamble or bet that you're making. What I have issue with is people basically offering it up as, a security alternative versus self custody, which I think self custody is actually way more accessible than people ever realize. And I think the concerns for the average person over single SIG are probably drummed up way too high. I mean, if you look at, like, actual numbers on hardware wallet loss, the the great major like, there's very few cases that we've seen of theft. The majority of issues that people have is people making mistake and not securing their backup properly. So if you actually secure those seed words offline and ideally put them in steel, 99% of situations, those funds will remain yours, and they'll be very hard to seize. Like, someone will have to actually come into your house and compel you to hand them over.
[00:24:17] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Most of the risk is, is, let's say, the social engineering, attacks, but it's very unlikely to lose it if you're doing even just single key. Right. If you're doing it well, you're generally very secure. Right. You need to follow general rules. Right. Like just don't trust people. But then they could as easily convince you to give them the password to your Coinbase account or whatever. Right? Right.
[00:24:44] ODELL:
Yeah. When you when you say social engineering, it's like, if someone emails you and pretends to be from Ledger and tells you to enter your seed words onto a web page, they can take your money. Don't do that. Like, own
[00:24:59] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. You have to which is a shame. Careful about Yeah. Just don't trust people in general. Like, just don't trust emails or text messages. Like, Don't trust them. Even if it looks official, just use common sense. If it asks you for your seed or tries to create any urgency, then it's most likely scam. Like, go on dinner and wait a few days, see if there is really people that you trust that are saying that, okay, there is really an issue. But don't give in to the panic. Right? So what scammers will try to do most is try to make you panic because when you panic, you make mistakes.
[00:25:35] ODELL:
Yeah. Take a deep breath.
[00:25:37] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Take a deep breath. Don't stress about it. Just try to figure things out, but calmly.
[00:25:45] ODELL:
Yeah. Yeah. And and specifically, like, the beauty of hardware wallets is it allows you to have this very easy recommendation, which is if if if you're using a hardware wallet, only enter your seed words, your backup words directly into the hardware wallet. 99% of situations that protects you, the scammers are tech are usually trying to get you to enter into a web page, reply to an email, put it into a Telegram chat or something like that. The whole reason the hardware wallet exists is because it's supposed to be where your your private keys are held instead of on the computer. So you wanna put it you wanna put it only into your hardware wallet. With the one exception being, the beauty of seed backups and them being interoperable is if Bitcoin Keeper disappears or if Coldcard disappears or if Ledger disappears, you can then go and recover your funds in another wallet. And in that situation, you might be entering in a spiral on your own accord or whatever. That's one of the coolest parts about seed phrases.
Now back to multisig, the other piece of multisig that is interesting to me so so for me, like, when I do recommendations to people, it's like, start with single sig, get comfortable with single sig. It's the best it's great for 99% of users and 99% of threat models. And when I say threat models, I'm saying, who are you trying to protect yourself against? You have to threat model this is personal responsibility, which makes it everything a little bit more difficult. But who are you trying to protect yourself against? Who might try and take your Bitcoin from you? And what situations are you trying to protect against? So I like single sig, and I really like single sig with the passphrase.
Adds a little bit more complexity of it. Make sure you actually record your pass raise somewhere. I did and somewhere different than your seed because your memory, you can get hit in the head. You can lose your memory. That becomes an issue as well. Don't try and memorize things. Mhmm. Except for short peers if you're, like, crossing a port or something. Multi sig, I really like for organizations. I really like for public figures. I think specifically geographically distributed multi sig. But the other piece of multi sig that's really interesting to me as a parent is inheritance.
So how are you guys because single sig inheritance can be quite simple. Right? You can tell your heirs where your seed phrase is.
[00:28:15] Ben Kaufman:
But the Yeah. But then they know where your seed phrase is. So that's absolutely The the problem is now they've entered your threat model.
[00:28:21] ODELL:
Right? And the problem is not only can they take your funds, but they could be compelled to give the funds away. Right? So it's not an ideal situation. Like, you you can completely trust maybe you can completely trust the error, but they could be fooled or they could be tricked or they could be compelled as well. Like, they don't have to necessarily be malicious themselves. So how do you guys handle inheritance with the multisig?
[00:28:47] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So our inheritance solution is basically mostly based on miniscript. Right? So miniscript is this cool programming language, let's say, for Bitcoin, which allows you to do certain, conditions on the spending, which are more complicated than just a simple multisig. Specifically, it lets you use, what we're using most is time locks for keys. So it lets you say, okay. We have these, let's say these two or three wallet, which is for now, it just has, three keys and you need two of them to sign. But let's say one year from now, it will become a two out of four wallets. So another key will be activated. Right now, this key cannot sign anything, but in one year, it will be part of the quorum.
Or let's say that's what we call an inheritance team keeper. Then you have an emergency key option where it the the new key that will be activated is basically a single spender. So instead of having a two out of four, you'll be you'll have your two out of three normally, and then the extra key can spend, alone. Right? So let's say you lost two let's say you lost all your keys in the multisig for some reason, you can still recover even in that case. So we give options of basically the the idea is a key that has delayed activation that when you give it out to someone, so let's say you give it to your air, they cannot do anything without it right now. But then if some time passes, you don't delay you don't move the the time delay, then it will be activated and they can spend.
[00:30:21] ODELL:
So in that so let's walk through that model, like, in practice. Right? So you have the two of three. You have the two of three, and then the air you're giving the air the fourth key that is activating later, but they still need a they they still need a second key to sign. Is Keeper holding a key in that situation? How does that work?
[00:30:44] Ben Kaufman:
No. So Keeper don't doesn't hold a key. So you can plan your inheritance in a way that, okay, you give one key or they know where one key is and they have the other key. Right. Or you could eventually we want to have a bit more spending conditions there so you can do more things or have more inheritance keys. So let's say you have, let's say you have two out of three, but then you give two inheritance keys to two of your child, let's say. So right now, what you can do, for example, is just give them either an emergency key or let them know where one of your keys are. And then these Right. Cannot spend right now, but can within a year. So I yeah. So I guess in practice, you're giving them two keys ahead of time, but one of them is inert or one of those keys isn't activated until the time line. Yeah. That's yeah. Exactly. So that's if you're using get two auto free. Yes.
[00:31:39] ODELL:
Right. So I me let's say I'm setting it up. I'm setting it up. I'm creating I'm I'm linking three keys to the app. The fourth key is generated by the app, presumably.
[00:31:51] Ben Kaufman:
Right? Or No. But you can only also the fourth key. Right? So that Okay. The fourth key can be at your hardware vault or it can be the app, the keeper app on the other on the Ares phone, for example, but you import that key. Basically, you either scan it, you
[00:32:07] ODELL:
use USB, whatever, but you add this fourth key when you create a wallet. Got it. So I create so I create the wallet with with four hardware wallets, let's say. And I'm giving two to my error, and then I'm hiding or I'm securing the three I have somewhere else. And then if once this time lock expires and how does is that a is that time lock how is that time lock set up? Is that time lock based on, like, the chain? Or
[00:32:40] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So it's, it's using well, we started with, block height. Now we moved to time stamps. But, yes, it's on chain. Right? So everything is secured on chain. Mini script is, is a programming for the Bitcoin script language, and everything that we do is happening on chain. So keep our Was it the time? Paying. Yeah.
[00:33:00] ODELL:
Mhmm. So it's the time since last transaction?
[00:33:05] Ben Kaufman:
So it's, basically the median time after, what is it, the 11 blocks, basically? No. But since my last transaction, like, how does that time lock work? Is it, like, a year after my last transaction? You you create a wallet. So we use an absolute time lock. So okay. So in Bitcoin, there are two types of time locks. Right? There are absolute time locks, which, are set up to a specific date, a specific block height, and there are relative time locks, which start on the, when a transaction is received. They are basically UTXO specific. So what Keeper does, it uses the absolute time locks, which, let you set the date in the future. So let's say we want to set in two years. So it's in two years since the work was created.
[00:33:50] ODELL:
Is there a limit on how far in the future you can set it?
[00:33:54] Ben Kaufman:
No. For absolute time locks, not really. You can set up whatever you want. For the, relative time locks, there is, there is a significant, limitation of, one point, one point three, one point four years.
[00:34:09] ODELL:
So is there is there a trade off there in terms of picking how like, what do you have a recommendation for how long people should let's let's use me as an example again. Like, how, like, how long should the time lock be? I've assume presumably, if I make it longer, if I make it, like, twenty years in the future and I die tomorrow
[00:34:33] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. They'll wait for me to use that key, so that's not a good idea. But also making it, like, one month is also too short because you have in order to renew that, you have to make an on chain transaction.
[00:34:46] ODELL:
You don't want to make an on chain transaction once a month. Right? Oh, is that all I have to do? I don't have to create a new wallet to reset the time lock?
[00:34:54] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So you create a new wallet. It's with the same key. So it's I mean, it's very easy to the the app basically generates the new wallet for you. You don't have to do much, but you need to update the backup, and you need to, make a transaction from the old wallet to the new wallet.
[00:35:11] ODELL:
Got it. Could the like, the app is, like, automating that process for me. But in practice Yeah. The app tries to automate as much as possible. Yeah. If I make it a five year time lock and we're at four and a half years, then I'm going into the app. And in the background, what's happening is a new wallet is being created that's resetting the time lock. But the the user doesn't really but it's using the same key. So
[00:35:35] Ben Kaufman:
yeah. Go on. It uses the same keys. It uses the it just updates to the preference. So let's say you you can choose what the new time loop that you want, whatever it's, another year, five years, whatever. And then it just creates that new wallet. But you don't have to add keys again or choose the keys or choose anything.
[00:35:55] ODELL:
But you said I have to update my backup. What am I updating there? I'm I still have the same seed words for the same hardware wallets. What backup am I updating?
[00:36:04] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So what is getting updated is mostly the, the times. Right? So the backup in this case, in the case of manuscript, it contains also the, the specific time that you chose, right, the specific time stamp that you chose. So let's say you have a key that is activated in two years. That time stamp of two years is also going to appear in your backup. That's because that's needed to generate the address because it's a part of the, of the Bitcoin script. Right? So the Bitcoin script is getting, let's say, translated into an address, which you can also derive from the backup.
[00:36:39] ODELL:
And how does the user keep that backup?
[00:36:43] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So that's with, with, how you would secure the script. Alright? That's another Yeah. Big topic in in Multisig, let's say.
[00:36:50] ODELL:
Yeah. So how do how do how do you handle that in the in the app?
[00:36:55] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So first of all, we allow the user to export it as, either as a PDF or as a file or however they want so they can export it and save it themselves. So we recommend generally to save it with each one of the keys. We also let you save it, encrypted to, to the, iCloud or Google Drive, whatever your iOS or Android, but you can basically enter a password for it and it will save it automatically, to to the cloud. And then we also have an option to save it with with us, with Keeper. So it's also encrypted. It we encrypt it with the app recovery key. So that's like your master seed. And then when you enter and try to recover the app, everything will load in automatically.
[00:37:46] ODELL:
Got it. I was laughing because we have Carlos in the comments. Yeah. I I I didn't think it's saying sometimes dispatch is just Odell's one on one user session with the dev. I mean, I hope you guys find that helpful. It's kinda my style. I, so when you say that so the I mean, that backup is a privacy issue. It's not a security issue. Right? So if somebody gets access to that backup, they they know your balance and they know your transaction history, but they don't they can't actually spend your funds.
[00:38:18] Ben Kaufman:
Exactly. Yeah. They cannot spend anything, but they can know your your balance. So, yeah, you should generally protect it, but it's not, as critical as your keys.
[00:38:28] ODELL:
So you can I mean, so you take that PDF and you print out that PDF, and then you can just store that PDF, ideally in multiple places? Mhmm. Yeah. And is it that PDF has a QR code on it? Is that what it is? So Yeah. So it has you don't have to retype it. Basically.
[00:38:47] Ben Kaufman:
So you can have both options. It doesn't scan the QR for some reason. You can I mean, typing manually would be a nightmare, but if your funds depend on it
[00:38:57] ODELL:
You'll figure it out? The and so that PDF backup means that if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper disappears, you'll be able to still get access to the funds. Right?
[00:39:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. So you don't have to trust us. Everything is compatible with the standards. So if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper is not available and the code disappears from GitHub for some reason, then you can still recover on other services, on other wallets.
[00:39:29] ODELL:
Got it. That's incredibly important. So all of this sounds awesome. It sounds like you guys have gone through painstaking lengths to not require trust, in actual Bitcoin Keeper team and the wallet, in the app. Historically, when that's been the case, it's hard to, you know, necessarily, you know, make money off of the project. And you guys are a company with salaries. How do you how does Bitcoin Keeper make money?
[00:40:10] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we're trying to offer the the app as, let's say, a tier model, a subscription model. So we have the free tier where we offer a lot. We offer you the most of the options. So the multi sig, the single key, hard or wallet, integration, everything. What we offer on the higher tiers are more backup options. So, like, more automated backups, with us, for example. We offer the mini script options on the paid tier, and, yeah, we offer certain features. We offer a server key option also. So we offer most of the features also already on the free tier, but some, stuff for, let's say, for backup and comfort and, like, inheritance, we offer on the on the higher tiers.
[00:41:01] ODELL:
So, what what does that pricing look like?
[00:41:05] Ben Kaufman:
So it's, for the first year, it's, $15 a month, and then the second year is 30 a month. And then we have, basically a full handholding service called Keeper Private where we offer $2,000 where it's basically you have a kid, you have handholding, you have everything.
[00:41:29] ODELL:
Is that per that's per year?
[00:41:32] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. That's per year. That's per year. The the ones that I said yeah. The 2,000 is is per year. Sorry.
[00:41:38] ODELL:
But the other ones were per month. So inheritance is inheritance is under if you wanna use the inheritance features, you got you have to pay $30 a month.
[00:41:46] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. You have the yearly plan for, what, for 300 and 150. But, yeah, you could have to to pay the yearly, the monthly fee, whatever.
[00:41:56] ODELL:
Got it. Cool. I mean, that makes sense to me. It's an ethical way to monetize. Do you have any you said other backup options. Does that include holding a key or something like that? Like, how is that handled?
[00:42:11] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we offer the server key option where we have, basically, a basically a server key, a key that is on a server, which you can choose spending conditions for. So let's say not spend more than $1,000 in a month or not sign for, or sign with a delay of one week or one month, two weeks, whatever. But, basically, you have these options as well.
[00:42:39] ODELL:
Got it. And that's part of the that's part of the paid tier?
[00:42:43] Ben Kaufman:
Yep. Yeah. That's on the paid tier.
[00:42:46] ODELL:
Got it. Cool. Carlos is asking how big is the Bitcoin keeper team?
[00:42:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So it's, six people, you could say.
[00:42:56] ODELL:
Okay. Nice small lean team. What other do you have is there any other interesting features that would compel someone to use Bitcoin Keeper over the alternatives?
[00:43:09] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I think the manuscript options are very strong and unique, option that we offer so that the user is completely in control, doesn't have to trust us for for backups, for inheritance, but can do everything with their own keys. Besides these, we try we also offer, inheritance documents. So, when you try to plan your inheritance, you want to leave something to the let's say, to your attorney or to your heirs, some set of instructions or an explanation. So we offer that as well, like some certain templates that help you plan that. Besides these, nothing on the top of my head. But there are a lot of small features all around the app that, that try to make it as easy as possible.
[00:44:00] ODELL:
You recently added Tethr support. How does what does that look like? How do you think the user is using that?
[00:44:06] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So with Tethr, we use, basically a service that is called gas free, which means that you can use, Tether both as the, as the currency and the fee option. So you don't need to hold any shit coins in order to use Tether. This aims mostly for people who who are interested to use Tether and also want to use Bitcoin, but don't really care much about, more shit coins or stuff like that. Just want to have some stability with the dollar, but still use Bitcoin for for most of the things. Right? So kind of have a balance between there. So along with all their other wallets on
[00:44:47] ODELL:
Keeper, there's also they would also have, I guess, like, a a Tether single sig wallet. Right?
[00:44:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So you just have another wallet on the list, which is your Tether wallet if you choose to create it. Yeah. And you can send, you can receive. Yeah. That's that's it. It just tries to make things easier for for people.
[00:45:15] ODELL:
I should just I'm addicted to reading live chat. The Tether. So how is the Tether the Tether wallet is a is that another BIP 85 child seed? Like, you're just keeping your main hot wallet seed and that covers that as well, or how does that work? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's another BIP 85 child seed. So the user's just keeping one seat. It's covering their Bitcoin wallet. It's cover covering their Tether as many Bitcoin wallets as they want and their Tether wallet. How does it work? So Tether's on multiple different chains. Is this, like, cross chain compatible? Can you pay a Tether invoice on Tron is the most popular and then Solana and ETH.
Does it matter which chain you're paying to or receiving from?
[00:46:04] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So right now, we started only on Tron because this is where, like, 50 something percent of FUSDTs. We want to add if, if this feature becomes popular, if you see enough demand, we'll add more chains, so you don't have to worry about which, chain you want to send to or receive from. Also, very important, we want to simplify the whole experience so you can pay everything with the USDT or the fees. So you don't have to think about the the sheet coins or the underlying chain where it's on. But, yeah, we want to to support whatever the users will need.
[00:46:39] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think as Americans, they don't see the value in Tether support. Mhmm. I mean, I've never I've never used Tether. But, like, I I mean, I did a trip to Argentina, and Argentina is a failing currency, and it's very hard to access dollars. And they have a thriving black market currency market there. And we went to one of the brokers, and 98% of their transactions was specifically Tether on Tron. So that that economy has effectively dollarized from the bottom up into Tether on Tron. And what we see is, in practice, the most popular self custody wallet in the world is Trust Wallet by Binance, which is a horrible wallet.
It's a really bad wallet. And but the reason people mainly use it is because it has Tether support, and it has really bad Bitcoin support. So to have a wallet that has good Bitcoin support, a really good Bitcoin support, and then also has usable Tether support, I feel like is a interesting trade off balance that, a lot of international users will, flock to.
[00:47:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely I know that the American market I mean, Americans have great access to the US dollar. Right. I get why don't need tether, but not everyone has the same access to US dollars. Right. Which is still compared to many other currencies. This is the most one of the most stable currencies in the world. Right? And definitely the most liquid. So it's gonna make sense that in many regions, people will need some dollars. Right? I definitely know that Bitcoin well, we all want hyper Bitcoinizations, but it's not gonna happen today. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. There's there needs to be some gradual transfer, from dollar to Bitcoin.
And people who are using currencies which are way worse than the dollar would definitely need this dollar in the meantime.
[00:48:44] ODELL:
Right. And so, do you also, do you also offer swaps between the two? Like, can I if I'm in app, can you easily switch between Tether and Bitcoin?
[00:48:57] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. That's coming in the next version. So we'll offer the option to swap easily. So if you want to move between them, that should be very easy to win the next version.
[00:49:07] ODELL:
Got it. I mean, that that's the hope. Right? I think, if you wanna see more people use Bitcoin, then having good Bitcoin wallets that offer Tether support is that they come in and start using it for Tether. And then if they can easily switch into Bitcoin for their long term savings, then they'll do that as well. How do you think about I does do you guys support Lightning, and how do you think about Lightning?
[00:49:36] Ben Kaufman:
No. So right now, we don't support lightning. The reason is basically that we're focused more on long term cold storage, like holding savings. And then people just so and all the iteration of the app, which was Hexa Wallet did have lightning support, but they kind of realized that people want some separation between the money that they're spending and the money that they're saving. Right? So Keeper is starting to be more of a savings up and not so much the spending up. Maybe in the future, we'll we'll consider adding it. But right now, we we're not, adding Lightning.
[00:50:14] ODELL:
That makes sense to me. It's also just it's hard to do it's hard to do self custody Lightning, in a easy UX way. Have you and so, like, it makes sense to me to, like, have a focus and a a differentiation between apps. Right? So, like, the the user can download Phoenix. They can download Zeus. They can use that for their lightning wallet, and then they can use Bitcoin Keeper for, on chain. And I think that's a completely reasonable balance for users to make. And then each each respective app can focus on their strengths rather than try and put it all into one app. Have you I mean, while I have you here, you're one of the more interesting technical minds in Bitcoin. Have you explored, the different concepts around trying to make, self custody lightning easier, whether that's, quote, unquote, self custody lightning easier, whether that's Spark from LightSpark or Arc?
Have you looked into that at all?
[00:51:23] Ben Kaufman:
I really saw all the time I've focused ever since Specter, I've focused on, self custody more for the long term. Right? So savings, large funds. And I haven't really used Lightning so much, from the, from work perspective, right, from development perspective. So, no, I don't know these solutions enough to to talk about them.
[00:51:47] ODELL:
Got it. Fair enough. I mean, yeah, I've I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's beta, which they're using Spark, which is, I guess, a fork of Mercury layer, which is like a swap chain. I haven't, like, really looked into the, like, deep technical details behind it. But, like, UX wise, it works really well. Trust model wise, it's, like, not quite self custody, but maybe it's good enough for people. Maybe it's good enough for regulators, which is really the key thing I think they're trying to get around.
[00:52:34] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. For people who think if you I mean, lightning is not really for for storing your life savings. Right? Right. So it's really not the end of the world, to to have some trust there. For for small funds, like, the the trust model can be a bit different.
[00:52:53] ODELL:
Yeah. And I think it's just a lot of it is just trying to get around KYC regulation. And if it's quote unquote self custody enough, for regulators, then maybe maybe it makes sense. But I will say from a from a UX point of view, it worked it worked quite well. And from my understanding of the trust model is basically, you're trusting that LightSpark isn't gonna act maliciously. If they wanted to act maliciously, they could be party to the swaps and then could spend your funds. Okay. Awesome. I mean, Ben, while I have you here as well, like, so what are your current thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin?
Are you optimistic about where we're at? The state of self custody versus, like, the paper Bitcoin products? How do you think about all of that?
[00:53:46] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. I mean, things definitely feel quite good right now very near the whole the all time high. Right? So there is quite a good feeling all around the the space. But, yeah, generally, everything is going towards, the financialization of Bitcoin. Right? It's going to towards the paper Bitcoin and not as much towards the, self custody, hardcore Bitcoiners that that we used to have back, a few years ago. So yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of a good and a bad. Right? We we all knew that Bitcoin is going way higher. We all knew that Bitcoin is is going to to succeed, but it's kind of losing some of the cultural aspects that it used to have.
[00:54:34] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that was probably always gonna happen. I think this is, like, the path of Bitcoin adoption that was most likely. I mean, I and I yeah.
[00:54:47] Ben Kaufman:
Go on. No. It it's not that it doesn't make sense. Like, it was kind of expected, but it's still, it's not the best to see how how things are happening and going towards all the paper Bitcoin and not, people just stopping to care about sort of custody. It's it's a bit risky overall eventually. But, yeah, I mean, we cannot really stop that. The most that we can do, I guess, is to try and educate people.
[00:55:17] ODELL:
Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, I think I think look. People are gonna use Bitcoin in different ways. You might not agree with all the people might not agree with all the ways they use Bitcoin. That's the whole point of Bitcoin. I think that the bullish the the bullish takeaway is that we have more people than ever using Bitcoin as freedom money and using it in self custody way. Percentage wise, it's it's significantly down, but, absolute number wise, like, the actual number of people is is higher. And the tools are clearly getting better. I mean, we started this conversation talking about, the environment Specter Wallet appeared in five years ago.
And it's never been easier than today to actually self custody Bitcoin and use it in a freedom oriented way, which is pretty beautiful to see.
[00:56:05] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's always getting better. I'm pretty excited to see where it will be in five years because in the last five years, we've gone so far. Right? And I'm sure, like, people that were here, you know, 02/2013, for example, in 2020, they had tools which were much better than back then. Right? Now we have tools that are much better than '20, than 2020. Right? So I'm excited to see what's coming in the next few years, really.
[00:56:33] ODELL:
Yeah. I agree. The future is bright. Ben, Carlos is working overtime as a cohost of the show, and he brought up a point that I did wanna bring up. How do you guy Keeper Wall Bitcoin Keeper, how do you guys think about, social recovery?
[00:56:53] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So we have certain thoughts on social recovery in the future, but nothing immediate. We are working I can say we are working to integrate a contact feature into Keeper, which will basically allow more features, including social recovery in the future. But, yeah, first of all, we want to introduce this contact option so you can kind of interact with people. For example, instead of using the links for everything, that I mentioned, you can you will be able to do it even more easily just within the apps and messages, within the app that can integrate with the wallets.
[00:57:31] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, I you can kinda think of, the mini script features as a social recovery layer as well, because instead of the air instead of the air having the recovery keys, you could have, you know, your best friend or your uncle or something like that hold hold those recovery keys. It doesn't necessarily have to be the air.
[00:57:55] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly.
[00:57:56] ODELL:
I mean, social recovery is interesting. Right? Because it's one of those things that has been thrown around in Bitcoin project and product circles for fucking years. And in in a in a theoretical world, it seems great. Right? It's like, okay. You're taking on personal responsibility. You're holding self custody Bitcoin. But if you mess it up, you know, a threshold of your friends or confidants or people you trust can help you recover your wallet. But then doing it in both a secure way and an easy way is very difficult problem to solve. Like, I haven't seen anyone successfully solve it yet.
Bitkey is kinda close. They have their own trade off model that they're battling with or they're offering to the market, I guess, which I think can be compelling for certain people depending on their threat model. But Big Key is more like to me, like, the way I look at Big Key is, is not trying to solve the same problem that typical hardware wallets have tried to solve over the years. Like, a typical hardware wallet is trying to solve strictly the security problem in protecting your Bitcoin. Well, Big Key is more more introducing hardware and multisig into the mix to make it harder for you to lose your Bitcoin and and make a mistake. Like, it's trying to solve that problem more than actual securing yourself in a more hardened way, offline way.
And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from people, like, comparing, like, a Bitkey to a cold card, for instance. I think they're trying to solve two very different problems and take two very distinct trade off balances there.
[00:59:32] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. It's always about trade offs, really. So
[00:59:36] ODELL:
yeah. But that I mean, that goes really hand in hand, I think, with the social recovery stuff. Right? Because it's like, when you try and do the social recovery in an easy way, it's hard to do it in in the most secure way, and then you have this whole balance. But then, like I said, now I'm kinda ranting, but the manuscript component is really interesting and compelling. It's it's definitely,
[00:59:56] Ben Kaufman:
one of the features for, let's call it, a social recovery option, right, Where you can keep out keys but don't trust people. And again, it's always a trade off. If you want a solution that is secure, of course, it would be harder to use. It is kind of by design because if something is very easy, then it would be easy to access. Right. And making something that is very secure but also very easy to use, it's simply hard. Right? It's a difficult problem. So we try to get it better. We try to make it better all the time, and it's way better than it used to be. But it's still obviously, there are trade offs.
[01:00:33] ODELL:
Yeah. Ben, this was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I should actually play around with Bitcoin Keeper and put it through its paces. And when I do, I'll give you some feedback. Yeah. But directionally, it seems like you guys are onto something. It seems, like a pretty pretty compelling feature set there. So thank you for that. Do you have any final thoughts, for the audience before we wrap?
[01:01:03] Ben Kaufman:
No. Just generally try you can try to use Bitcoin keeper again. It's free, so you can just download it, create the wallet, and play with it. You don't have to register. We don't ask for any personal information, and you can just play with it and see what you think.
[01:01:19] ODELL:
Love it. And, the the website is is it bitcoinkeeper.app?
[01:01:25] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Exactly. Bitcoinkeeper.app.
[01:01:27] ODELL:
Or they can just search it on their app store, bitcoin keeper.
[01:01:30] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Also on the app store, bitcoin keeper, you can find this in the, on the website. You can find it on on x on Twitter.
[01:01:40] ODELL:
Awesome. I mean, I tried to keep this episode accessible because your app is attempting to be accessible to new users. I don't know how successful I was at that. Historically, dispatch has a lot more technical listeners. To the technical listeners that might be playing around with the app and wanna give you feedback, what's the best way for them to give you technical feedback?
[01:02:02] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. So first of all, you can reach us, through the app. Right? So we have a whole chat system, like a support ticketing system from the app, because we used to we still have a Telegram group, but then it's, Telegram is just,
[01:02:18] ODELL:
has too many scams, basically. It's and it's very It's a mess.
[01:02:22] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. It's a mess. Exactly. So we implemented a chat, at ticketing support through the app so you can reach us more securely. And you can always reach me on on Twitter. So my DMs are open, and they try to respond all the time.
[01:02:37] ODELL:
Awesome. I'll put all the links in the show notes. Ben, thank you for joining us.
[01:02:42] Ben Kaufman:
Yeah. Thank you for inviting.
[01:02:44] ODELL:
Freaks, especially those of you in the live chat. Thank you for joining. You guys make the show unique. Kieran promised me he's gonna make sure the Nostra chat is up and live sometime soon. In general, I will just, take one for the team and say that the Nostra ecosystem in general needs to have better video streaming support, video watching support, all video stuff. I mean, I I think I think it's somewhere where we can really excel and we need to lean into it. So I will take partial responsibility for it not being at a stable, reliable, robust position right now. But, we're making progress and we're making progress quickly.
So I think we'll be in a much better place soon. And then last but not least, freaks who support the show with Sats. Thank you. All the relevant links are at silldispatch.com. Share with your friends and family. It really does go a long way. Leave a review in your favorite app store. It helps. But thank you all. Stay humble. Peace.
CNBC Intro
Happy Bitcoin Monday
Ben Kaufman
Specter Wallet
Bitcoin Keeper
Multisig and Security Models
Single Sig vs Multisig
Inheritance Planning
Unique Features of Bitcoin Keeper
Tether Support and Global Use Cases
Lightning Network and Future Prospects
State of Bitcoin and Self Custody
