Praveen is the creator and maintainer of Cove Wallet. An open source mobile wallet focused on easy and powerful self custody. We discuss the current features of Cove, future roadmap, and his perspective on balancing tradeoffs when using bitcoin.
Praveen on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/nprofile1qqsy8us3d6u5ynddk7lq7yz365hqqsptzd2923fvkgj4eepsady08uszccr0l
Praveen on X: https://x.com/PraveenPerera
Cove Wallet: https://covebitcoinwallet.com/
EPISODE: 165
BLOCK: 903685
PRICE: 923 sats per dollar
(00:00:01) Jack Mallers Intro
(00:03:14) Happy Bitcoin Wednesday
(00:05:56) Cove Wallet Features and Goals
(00:08:22) Technical Aspects of Cove Wallet
(00:13:32) Future Plans for Cove Wallet
(00:19:05) Node Connectivity and Privacy Features
(00:29:01) Cove Wallet and Hardware Wallet Integration
(00:36:00) Onboarding and User Experience
(00:45:07) Seed Words and Alternative Backups
(01:02:02) Collaborative Custody and Security
(01:14:45) Future Features and Feedback for Cove Wallet
(01:19:03) Bitcoin Industry and Market Thoughts
(01:28:08) Custodial vs Self-Custodial Solutions
(01:31:56) Closing Remarks and Future Plans
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[00:00:02]
Jack Mallers:
Everyone's always asking me, hey, Jack. If Trump's official policy is America first and telling China get their money out of the country, and everyone goes, well, isn't the stock market then gonna have to go down? And I say, yes, absolutely. They say, but Jack, it keeps going up. Going up in what? Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 10/24/1929, the Great Depression. The DGIA hits its lowest point on 07/08/1932, 89% below its September 29 peak, defining the most significant bear market in Wall Street's history. The market would not return to its 1929 high until 1954. The Great Depression. So the stock market down 89%.
And people say, but, Jack, the stock market has not been down that much in recent memory. In 1929, the dollar is backed by gold. So the stock market was down 89% in gold terms. That's why it was a real depression. You see? Let me show you. From 2000 to 02/2011, the stock market was down 89% in gold terms. So if you measured the stock market in gold, you already lived through a great depression, hotshot. You just didn't see it. We had a great depression in plain sight. How? Manipulation of the money. What I'm saying is, yes, the stock market is going to get obliterated. Obliterated.
In what? Not in dollars. Stop looking at things in dollars. You're gonna miss these things in broad daylight. The whole world has already lived through stock market crashes, just not in dollar terms. People say, oh, man. My stock portfolio is up again this year. Weird. Why can't I afford rent? That's weird. Why am I getting less groceries? That's weird. Filling up my tank is really expensive, but my stock market went up. Depends what you're measuring in. You understand? The S and P 500 against Bitcoin over the last five years, Down 81%.
What about food? Food's down 85% against Bitcoin in the last five years. We lived through a depression and a performance that was greater than the Great Depression, but no one batted an eye because they used the wrong measuring stick.
[00:03:14] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Serial Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was Jack Mallers, cofounder no. Founder and CEO of Strike. Disclosure, ten thirty one is the largest investor in Strike, the largest shareholder outside of Jack himself. I have a great show lined up for us today. As always, sale dispatch is purely funded by our audience with Bitcoin donations. The two ways you can do that is through our Nostril live chat or through podcasting two o two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts. All links are at silldispatch.com.
The largest Zap we got on podcasting two point o last episode with Alex Gleeson was one of the most interesting guests on CD. Would love to see him join more often. That was Beholder with 5,000 sats. Alex is gonna come back on August 15. So I've already lined up a repeat conversation with him. We're gonna make those more often, and he's got a lot of big updates that will hopefully be ready to go when we have that conversation. Anyway, Freaks, I have Praveen here. He is, the creator and lead maintainer of Cove Wallet, a new wallet available on iOS with aims to go broader and be available on more platforms. How's it going, Praveen?
[00:04:53] Praveen Perera:
Good. Good. Good to be here.
[00:04:55] ODELL:
Thank you for joining. Listener. First time caller. Well, it's good to have you. Thanks for, I'm I I it's the little things. It's the little things, that keep me going. And, I saw a comment from you that said, I've been listening to dispatch for years, and this was the first episode that I was disappointed in or something along those lines. Or, like, I'm a huge dispatch fan, but this was the first episode I didn't like. And I was like, oh, wow. That's awesome. Yeah. That a 165 episodes, if you like most of them, that's that's it it means a lot. Let me put it that way. Yeah. You're you're just too nice.
Okay. So, I mean, we can jump into that. But before we do, let's talk about Covell. What is Covell? Why should people care? What is the goal?
[00:05:56] Praveen Perera:
Okay. So the goal of Cove Wallet is to be basically the simple Bitcoin only mobile wallet. I try to say it's as much about what it doesn't do as what it does do. So it doesn't do it does not and will not ever do lightning or multisig, for example. Because there's great apps that already do that, but that's not in our wheelhouse of trying to be really simple. Also, the other thing is it's on iOS, and we wanted to make it look really nice. That might I think that's a high priority, especially for people coming in. When you see a nice well designed app, you you trust it. It's, easier to use, more intuitive. So our the bar we set was, if Apple designed a wallet, how would it look? So we wanted to make it super native, look look like it belongs on iOS.
But the other thing the other side of it is just because it's simple, we didn't want to limit its functionality. So we want it to be simple while basically having everything an advanced Bitcoiner would need other than, you know, the stuff we don't support like lightning and multisig. So it's feature rich. We wanna follow all the standards. We follow bips as much as we can, for labels. You know, we follow that bip, BIP three twenty nine. But big thing is, PSPST support. So before before Cove, I was using, Green Wallet, which I think is a very nice wallet, but it was basically impossible to use with, hardware wallets.
Not nice in not in a nice way, at least. So, so I wanted to keep the design top notch, but, basically, allow me to use it with the hardware wallets I already use. And, so far, we've definitely, achieved that, I think, mostly because Cove is now my daily driver for whenever I, use Bitcoin. I I use the computer less. I use my phone more. And, yeah. So it's it's been easy to judge because I I am the first customer of Cove. I've been using it a lot more, and I've been really liking it, but definitely stuff I wanna work on still as well.
[00:07:59] ODELL:
So, basically, the way I think about it is the goal of Cove, is to provide a very easy way for people to securely use their hardware wallet of choice on a mobile, you know, in a mobile in a mobile environment without a desktop computer. And kind of I mean, I'm curious on your opinion here. I've been known to call it the Sparrow wallet of mobile, and that's primarily because I absolutely rely on Sparrow wallet, and there's no second best. But one of the big complaints that I've seen about Sparrow, especially through education, through onboarding people to use it, is that it can be a little overwhelming. It can be a little bit, power user focused, in the beginning. And kind of the cool part with Cove is you can start simple. You can start easy. It doesn't really overwhelm you, but you still have the power user features, kind of in the background, if if you wanna use them as you as you learn more and get more comfortable.
[00:09:10] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. It's a hard line to tow. Just wanted to answer audience question. Is it open source? Yes. Fully open source MIT license. It's on GitHub. Everything's there.
[00:09:21] ODELL:
And Praveen is, an open SaaS grantee.
[00:09:24] Praveen Perera:
Yes. Mhmm. Thank you to you guys. Without you and BDK, wouldn't have been able to do this. We can get into BDK a bit later. Yeah. I understand, like, the, like, Sparrow for mobile thing, but I don't know if it's the best description just because Sparrow does so much. Right? And, Craig works really hard to support, like, everything. And that's great, and it's really good for power users, but we kind we kinda have different goals. Right? So, like, Veritas, MultiStick, and all that. But we I I really wanna be, like, simple user first, and then, the goal was basically as the user moves through their Bitcoin journey, learns more, they're able to naturally use find these advanced features and and and use them. So for example, I think coin control is a good example of this.
When you send even in in Cove, when you try to send Bitcoin, just the normal way, there's no coin control because I couldn't think of a way to add that which would still be simple and, like, wouldn't have people asking questions. Because something I've noticed is, like because before COVID, I, like, helped a lot of people use Bitcoin, I'm sure, which a lot of Bitcoiners probably have. But it's just, you lose people when there's, like, something they don't recognize and it's just like, what is this? So even if you think, hey. Like, the person doesn't need to know what this is. If they don't know, don't use it. If they see it and they're like, I don't know what this is, they will they might get stuck. They're like, oh, you know, I don't wanna miss make a mistake, which is good. They they don't wanna make a mistake. So if they see something they don't know, they'll they'll they'll get stuck. They'll just stop there. So if you go through the normal sign flow, there's no coin control. There we have three dots at the top. That's like our kinda advanced, do more features kinda thing, and and it says manage UTXO.
So the idea is, like, if you don't know what that is, you won't click it, but it's you're not you're not in the middle of a flow, so it's not gonna interrupt you. It's just in the main, main screen where you see all your transactions. So if you go through there, you can see all your UTXOs. You can select them, and and yeah. And and just do a normal concurrent control as you expect. Yeah. I guess to get to your, for the question is I I I I love Sparrows, so it's a compliment to be called the Sparrow of, mobile, but we do have different goals in that. I really focus on being simple, simple, simple, wallet.
[00:11:56] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that also makes sense, because it's mobile focused as well. I I think in general, you we probably see the overwhelming majority of people who use Bitcoin in five years will be doing it from a mobile app. But the overwhelming majority of power users will probably still be doing it on desktop. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I know myself personally, I I I tend to be more comfortable on desktop, for managing savings.
[00:12:35] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I I agree. But I think me I I I right now, I use both because Yeah. So when you get, you know, you get paid in Bitcoin for open SaaS, unfortunately, I need to sell some to live. So that is, like, my daily, monthly account. Right? So that, I use with mobile. But, like, if I have a a a cold storage, deep storage that never moves, that maybe I'll only use with, desktop.
[00:13:01] ODELL:
Yeah. And that goes to your belief that we we don't need to have multisig in Cove. Because if you're gonna do multisig savings, then you learn how to use Sparrow. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's key I think it's key so, I mean, this was, a pretty cool case study cove, because some of some of us at at Open SaaS realized a need. We realized a need, which is a a a straightforward, highly secure, false mobile app focused on on chain specifically. Praveen was already working in the Bitcoin space and was looking for what his next project was gonna be. And it kind of worked incredibly well together in terms of Praveen taking taking this project and just shipping, shipping, shipping, and OpenSats providing funding. And then we also had a group, that has been providing feedback, a group of heavy hitters, that are not all OpenSats.
Craig is actually one of them as well, that have been providing feedback along the way. But one of the key things, one of the key things here that I think you really nailed on is not every wallet needs to have Lightning in it. We we I think one of the reasons why Cove fits as such a good role is because it doesn't have Lightning in it. It doesn't have multisig. It's making secure single sig on chain great again. And there's this weird fascination with people that especially in this new era of, leveraged Bitcoin equities, you know, the MSTR playbook, where people do this false dichotomy where it's either you're either doing geographically distributed multisig or you're you're holding Michael Sailor stock on MSTR.
But you could actually do very secure single sig in a very straightforward, easy to do way, that unlocks a ton of freedom benefits that only Bitcoin can provide. And I feel like Cove really fits that role well. One of the things that you've been very proud of, is that you've natively written this app, and that's why it's only on iOS right now. You kinda have to build out Android separately. You're not using something, like React. You wanna go into a little bit why you chose to do that and what kind of benefits users see?
[00:15:40] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So this is a kind of a case study for me as well as just the way I built it because, I haven't seen many people do it exactly this way because, right now, basically, two ends of the spectrum of building mobile apps would be on one end, like React or another framework that's JavaScript or dot Flutter, Dart, a different language, that is not fully native. That's it's not like the the languages that the platform is used to. But the advantages, you can build it once and basically run it in two different places. I've made apps like that. And the other other end is basically you do the entire app twice. Right? Once for iOS with Swift or Objective c and then again for Android, using Kotlin or Java, whatever. And then so completely opposite spectrums, the building it twice would basically take twice as long.
I've taken a slightly different approach. So what I'm doing is I'm building the core of the app in Rust. Rust is widely used in Bitcoin now. BDK is is written in Rust, so that's it makes it easier to use, BDK directly in Rust. So I'm doing as much of the logic in Rust as possible, but I still do all of the views. So what you see on the screen, the components, the little widgets, everything basically that is drawn to the screen is written right now in SwiftUI. So the native, the native language. The reason for that is, basically, you get you you look at the app and it looks fully native. There's no it looks like an app that belongs on iOS, and it's gonna be very fast as well. Right? So much faster than using, JavaScript.
And I know a lot of people don't like JavaScript for the security security stuff as well. So, you know, avoid a whole class of issues there, while saying very fast and basically looking native. But the advantages since most of it is, written in Rust, what I'm betting on is that when I do make the Android app, it will it won't take twice as long. It'll take, maybe 20% of the time or 30% of the time. Right? Just to I just I do have to rewrite some stuff because I have to rewrite the the views, what it looks like in in Kotlin, but everything else, the functionality will be the same. There'll be less testing because the functionality itself is tested. Right? So the small surface area of rewriting and I I'm I'm a whole I'm hoping and I'm thinking that it will, be a really good trade off.
Obviously, like, not every app needs to be done this way. Like, I think React Native makes sense for a lot of apps, but for a security focus Bitcoin, app that, like, like, really trying to nail the UX, I think, writing the stuff you see, the view code in their native platform makes a lot of sense.
[00:18:31] ODELL:
Awesome. And, I mean, just one symptom of that, is how small the app is. I,
[00:18:38] Praveen Perera:
go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very proud of that. Because I I mean, I didn't try to make it small or anything. I just that wasn't I I put it up and I noticed it's, what was that? I think it was less than 20 megabytes. Yeah. It was 19 megs. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of, these clock cross platform apps that are written once, they can get huge. Right? 100 megabytes, 200, 300, which I mean and in my tweet, I said not a lot of people care about the size of the bundle size. And I I think it's true. But but for some, it matters. But, also, like, you know, if you're on a a crappy Internet connection, maybe not in the first world, that stuff matters. Right? It'll be it'll be, much faster to download, quick. It it loads up really quick. Right? So, you might not care about the bundle size, but, like, what that means, I think everybody will care about.
[00:19:30] ODELL:
Snappy. Nice to use. It's a cool flex and a cool metric. The first off, Mav 21 in the live chat, Zap does 10,000 sets. Thank you, Mav. Damien x RVN x, Zap 21,000 sets. Thank you, sir. Thank you guys for supporting the show. I see a comment from be involved, about a user connecting their own node. This is you know, I I know you don't like the comparison. Another similarity to Sparrow, in that you default to public well known Electrum servers. My app at least defaulted to blockstream.info, but I see mempool DIY nodes in there as well, and then give users the option in settings to change to their own node or any other node they want to connect to. How do you think about that? Yeah. So this was an important feature for me because, again, I think of myself as the first, user of Cove.
[00:20:31] Praveen Perera:
And, if I'm using Cove, if I'm using a wallet, I don't want to connect to a public node. So I, like, before it launched, that was, like, a must have to be able to connect to your own node. So have that. You're able to connect to your local Umbrel or whatever. But I also realized that not everybody runs nodes. And as an app that's trying to be, you know, user friendly, the the default that makes sense is to connect to a public node. Right? But if I I don't wanna have to force people to learn about nodes and running your own nodes and all that just to start using the app. But if you know, you know you know what a node is and you run your own node, I try to make it easy to find. Right? So it's just in settings, the first like, it's one of the first layers is, like, nodes or node connect, something like that. And, you can easily connect to your nodes. And, I do wanna make that process of connecting to nodes easier. I don't know why a lot of people don't do this, but, you know, you can you can check to see if, like, there's some well known nodes that a lot of people run, like, Umbrel, start nine, and they're usually on the same place in your network. So we can we can check and add that to a list automatically so you don't have to, type it in. So there's stuff we can make, do to make it easier, but at least having the ability to connect to your own node was a important feature for me. And Cove doesn't support Tor yet. Right?
No. Cove doesn't support Tor. Again, I'm not a big fan of Tor, so that's why I haven't supported it yet. Mostly because it's slow, and I think it degrades the user experience. But I do recognize that people that people like it and want to use it. So we will Well, the biggest issue is,
[00:22:09] ODELL:
for people that are running these home nodes, like, if they're running a start nine, most of them are connecting through a tour to get back. I know start nine wants to do it's been in the pipeline for a while, and they wanna have a proxy clear net service. But right now, the status quo is people are basically pasting in a Tor electrum string.
[00:22:30] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what I've done with, I had an Umbrel. What I did with Umbrel was run tail tailscale? Yeah. Tailscale. So you can run that on yours and then connect. I find that to be much faster than Tor. That's another thing I wanna work on. Basically, like a proxy you can run on your own nodes so you can connect without Tor directly. Yeah. So as as a general group of features, I think connecting to nodes is like some ideas I have. I've worked with the guy work working on Kyoto, which is, compact block filters. So I don't know how familiar everybody is, but, basically, it's a more privacy preserving way of, getting your transactions without having to connect to your own node.
So that's definitely like a there's, like, groups of features and stuff that I wanna work on, and that's definitely one of them. Just easier easier connecting
[00:23:23] ODELL:
to more private nodes, I guess. Yeah. I, I mean, look, I love this trade off balance. I think, obviously, if you're not using your own node, you're trusting someone else's node, and you're trusting you're trusting that node with privacy. You're trusting, them to enforce the rules of the network and also validate your transactions, actually authenticate your balances. So it's strictly best to run your own node. It's the only way to interact with the Bitcoin network in a trust minimized way, without a third party involved. But a lot of people won't, especially in the beginning. And if they won't, then I I think the best way is rather than Praveen running a specific code server and being a vertically integrated single point of failure, it's defaulting to high uptime, highly reputable public servers, rather than I mean, this is probably foreign for a lot of people, but, Electrum, for instance, will just pick a random Electrum server. And there's a lot of public Electrum servers that are believed to be run by chain surveillance companies and other bad actors.
So you don't wanna give, like, a complete random public node connection, but having, like, this curated list of high high uptime, high reputable ones, seems like a very reasonable trade off balance to me.
[00:24:56] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. And I took my list from, Sparrow as well. Yeah.
[00:25:01] ODELL:
I I also like in Sparrow, like, he just really scares the shit out of you if you're using one of his curated public node list. I like that you don't scare users, because I think, you know, they're it is strictly better if they use a their own node, but they're not gonna lose funds over it. It's not I it's not something that I wanna really scare users with right in the beginning. I guess I wanna jump in a little bit deeper. But before we do that, I realized that we didn't really do the high level. I think the high level would be very useful for people. Okay. So someone someone buys a cold card.
They install Cove on their phone. What's the setup process?
[00:25:48] Praveen Perera:
So we do have videos of this, but, basically, let's assume it's a q one because it's very QR native, QR native QR code native. Anyway, if we buy a q one, it's a works really, really well with Cove. Basically, you set it up, set up the PIN. Actually, small aside, I think, NVK was talking with someone at the Bitkey guys and they're like, oh, you can't set up, a a a cold a cold card in five minutes or whatever. So I think I made a video being like, okay. This is thirty seconds. Right? So, basically, you set up the pin. You go through the cold cold cards, say, export wallet or advance, whatever.
The the place you go to export the xPub. And they have a bunch of formats. I made it so that you could pick any of the formats. So whatever they pick, it'll work. Pick a format, say generic JSON, and then generate the QR code. And then on Cove, there's a one button for QR codes. You can just hit the QR button and scan the scan the code, and that's it. Now you have, you have that the XPub for that in on Cove. And, if you already have transactions on there, you'll see them. You can create the receive addresses and, yeah, start using it. And then high level, sending, very similar. You on Cove, you start the transaction.
You get to a screen that says, export signature. It'll show you a QR. You scan that QR with your cold card, and then cold card will give you another QR. You scan that with Cove, and that's it.
[00:27:30] ODELL:
Yeah. It's super simple. You've done such a good job with the onboarding flow. Yeah. You're literally just generating you're just generating the keys, the wallet on on whatever hardware wallet you're using, and then you're scanning the QR code on Cove, and then you manage the wallet on Cove. You approve transactions on the hardware wallet. And because it's PSVT standard, it works with pretty much the same way with every other QR code based hardware wallet, whether that's a seed signer or a passport or whatever you're using. Really just really clean straightforward. I think I mean, it it it makes self custody secure offline cold storage self custody just so much more accessible.
[00:28:14] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. The one caveat right now is, we for the QR codes, we use we support the BB QR standard, which, Coldcard uses, Crux uses, and I don't I'm not sure. I think a few other people use. But there are some devices that uses slightly more complex standard called UR. We don't support that yet, so I need to that'll be one of the things, one of the things we add. But for those, you'd have to use, like, files, basically. So it's not as smooth, but any but if you can get the PSPT on the phone, you can use it, but we need to support the So then you're just copying and pasting the
[00:28:51] ODELL:
the text string instead.
[00:28:53] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Basically. Or or, I mean, you can use files as well. So if you like, we connect to iCloud. If you wanna put the PSVT on there, you can, import it. Got it.
[00:29:02] ODELL:
Fair enough. And then so you also support NFC. How does that work? Is that I haven't tested that out yet. Yeah. NFC.
[00:29:11] Praveen Perera:
So I I have Coldcard is what I use, so it's what I tested it most with. But same thing. Whenever you're, like you can import the wallet using NFC, instead of QR or and you can sign transactions using NFC. You know, similar process instead of but instead of using QR codes, you're using NFC and scanning it.
[00:29:34] ODELL:
Got it. So it's just a it's you're just tapping. It's the same process. You're just tapping. Yeah. Exactly. Awesome. And then, obviously, with Cove, you can also just make infinite hot wallets if you don't wanna use a hardware wallet. And that just uses seeds. You can just write down your seed, stamp them and steal or whatever. You're good to go. Yeah.
[00:29:56] Praveen Perera:
So the idea is someone that, you know, does if if you have your Bitcoin on an exchange, you probably don't have a hardware wallet yet. So really wanted to take the graduated approach of you can move your Bitcoin off exchange into Cove hot wallet. And then once you're ready, buy a hardware wallet and make that whole process seamless.
[00:30:16] ODELL:
Awesome. Okay. So let's talk about you built on BDK. What was that process like? What are your thoughts on that project?
[00:30:23] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So for people not familiar with BDK, it basically handles all the Bitcoin transaction, a lot of the, basically, the hard cryptography and all that stuff, related to actually sending, receiving, dealing with Bitcoin, just interacting with the Bitcoin network. It's written in Rust, so I was able to very easily use it in mine. But even if you're not building with Rust, they do have bindings for other languages. It was very nice to use, and this team was super responsive, took a lot of feedback. Like, I was I was kinda keeping them updated on what it was like using it, and they made some changes, documentation changes, other changes, from my feedback. And, yeah, they've just been really great to work with. Without BDK, I I mean, I did this in a it took about a year. I wouldn't have been able to do that. There was, like, way too much stuff to do. Right? I was really because of BDK, I was really able to focus on the UX and the design of, Cove, and and they and, basically, they focused on all the hard stuff, the security stuff, which is great.
[00:31:33] ODELL:
That's awesome. Okay. So, I mean, I think a lot of listeners are wondering when Android are you gonna put it on desktop too? What are your thoughts?
[00:31:43] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So my next two, like, immediate things I wanna work on is supporting the York, standard, like I was saying. So more hardware wallets would it'll be easier to use with more hardware wallets. And the other thing is Android support. So, this was launched in June. I took a little bit of a break for June and vacation and just, like, you know, worked on it for a while. So June has been kind of bug fixes and reporting to, responding to support, that kind of stuff. But I I will be applying for OpenStats again. And the first two things those would be the first two things.
The Android app, I am I budgeted basically three months to it. That's including testing and stuff, but I'm hoping it can be a little bit faster. Hoping in, like, one to two months, I'll have a beta ready for people to try out on Android. So keep a lookout for that, and, you know, feedback is always appreciated.
[00:32:44] ODELL:
Awesome. I mean, well so and what do you think that the broader QR code support will be sooner than that?
[00:32:54] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. That'll should be, like, a couple weeks maybe. Okay. Because I it's it's just, it is a more complex I think I start I tried to add it at first, and then I worked on it for a couple hours, and it was complex, and I thought I had a lot more other stuff to work on. But, it's yeah. It's just supporting that standard. It shouldn't be too big of an issue.
[00:33:16] ODELL:
I mean, that'd be awesome because, I mean, the ideal situation and, obviously, I was, I was blind to that because I've used it with a cold card as well. Yeah. But the the less caveats you have to give when you recommend something to someone. Yeah. The better. Like, if I if I could just be like, install Cove, use whatever hardware wallet you want. Also, not have to ask them if they're iPhone or Android. Yep. Right? Yep. It just it obviously makes everything.
[00:33:46] Praveen Perera:
Well, I I mean, there's some hardware wallets that don't support PSBTs. Right? Or, like Well, there's those are just there. Yeah. They should get a better hardware wallet. Yeah. That's true. I mean, if anybody so, CoinKite sent me, their stuff, so I was able to test with it. So foundation, anybody else using UR standards and that actually use PSPTs, feel free to send me a hardware wallet so I can test with it. That'll be helpful for me. And I'll make a video of it working and put it on the Cove Twitter.
[00:34:18] ODELL:
Good shout. What other what other things do you wanna add to this? We've discussed previously privately paid join, silent payments. How are you thinking about those things?
[00:34:32] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So one of the buckets I wanna work on is, improved privacy for sure. So that would include PayJoin. It'd be great to have more wallets and exchanges that support PayJoin. Silent payments, I'm a little iffy on just because you need Taproot. And I don't support Taproot right now, but, I don't see why we won't be able to send to silent payment addresses. And then another one would be better, like, multi wallet support. Right now, you you can have multiple wallets, but they're kinda completely separate. Right? We don't have we don't have a, like, okay. This is how many Bitcoin is in all the wallets, and we don't have an easy way to send from one wall to another. You just have to copy the addresses. I think it'd be cool to just, you know, on the send screen, be, like, sent to wallet a from wallet b.
That would be nice. I'm just looking at my list of stuff. I think we can it I think it's pretty beginner friendly, but I think we can make it even better. I think I I wanna make a better onboarding experience. Right now when you open it, it just basically it's two buttons that says, where is your Bitcoin? Or, like, where do you wanna store your Bitcoin? On a hardware wallet or on a, on your phone? I was talking to someone that has Bitcoin on an exchange, and to him, that was too confusing as well. Right? It was like, I don't know. You tell me where I wanna keep it. So I think we're gonna have an onboarding flow. So for the feedback, it's going backwards a bit. It's been really good to have a mix of, like, you and VK, people that are very technical and, like, very comfortable, but also people that are really new. So, and and self described retards like plate. So he he he he's given me really good feedback. For like, for example, one of the things I I think it was, I had a button that said new wallet, and he didn't like that because he was scared. That means if that if he's pressed it, it would delete the current wallet. So I changed it to add wallet. Right? So feedback like that. Fair.
And the other thing and the other guy has been Adrian, who's my designer. He's very new to Bitcoin. Right? So he has really good questions that, like, that I'm like that you don't think about because, like, you've been in you've been doing this for a while. It's like Right. It's, like, super basic. So, yeah. So so this this the onboarding ideas from that. Basically, it's gonna be like, how where are you in your Bitcoin journey? It'll be like, where's your Bitcoin right now? Exchange, hardware, whatever. So if it's exchange, it'll go through, like, a really super simplified flow, and it will there will be some education aspects to it. I think that's something we need for, like, new Bitcoiners on the app. Just like, what is a hardware wallet? Why would I wanna use a hardware wallet? What is a hot wallet? What are the trade offs? Like, stuff like that. I think we could do a better job.
I I I also just kinda wanna add those, like, little question mark buttons to most of the buttons, like NFC. What if they, You know? Yeah. What is a PSPT? That kind of I think we can make it a lot better for new users. Because right now, I think the new users we get are people, referred by people like you or other Bitcoin. Right. Or like that that Me holding someone's hand and adding them to Cove. Exactly. So I I think it's great for that level, like people that already have a preamble of what this is, how to use it. But there more work needs to be done for someone that just goes to the App Store and searches Bitcoin and finds it. I think I think more work need basically, the app needs to be the Odell a little bit more. Like, need to hold their hand a bit more for the people that don't have an Odell.
[00:38:20] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean and, also, I'm sick of holding people's hands. Like, I just want to tell them to download something. Yeah. And then just let them it should you shouldn't have to watch, you know, a two hour tutorial video, to securely hold Bitcoin. The the the app should be a well designed app should be able to handle that process. And and it like, we we should we should be at the point where, you know, that that's what we've been missing in a big way, and there's different ways to accomplish that. And you have, like, the extreme with something like a Bitkey. But the trade off is it's like trying to find that trade off balance and and trying to find the the balance between and this probably will be the single biggest difficulty for you, is finding the balance between providing an easy, non overwhelming experience for the newbies versus just a wallet that a power user can rely on.
[00:39:29] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I I can already see that creeping in, especially because, obviously, a lot of the feedback I'm getting right now is from, like, experienced Bitcoiners. So, I mean, like, as an example and so, basically, the hard part is gonna be adding these advanced features without making it complicated for the users. I think I'm gonna need some kind of, like, advanced mode where you need to do something weird to enable it, and then it'll, let you do more stuff. I don't want it to be accessible to people that will, that where it will confuse them.
[00:40:06] ODELL:
I mean, you can just have, like, in the settings menu, like, an advanced toggle or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's what that's what I'm thinking. I'm curious on your opinion. You say you mentioned, concerns over solid payments and Taproot specifically. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper on that on, like, how you're thinking about that. And just before we do with the caveat that I actually don't think of this as a power user feature. I think of this as a new user feature, and that's partially coming from my seven years volunteering for HRF training activists.
And so if you're an activist, if you're an activist in Venezuela and you wanna receive Bitcoin donations, in a secure way, the the best if the the way the way to do it to to make sure you get the most donations possible is literally just paste a reused address. Like, we saw Navalny's foundation was just using a single reused on chain address for years, and Putin wasn't able to take their money. Now Putin and everyone else were able to see their full transaction history and how much money they had raised. And, eventually, at some point, Putin, pressured Binance, and Binance handed over all the information of Binance users that donated, to Navalny, and he was opposition candidate. So a bunch of them faced persecution, jail time, and whatnot for sending a $50 donation or a $100 donation.
So that's obviously not ideal. Now their organization has switched since switched to BTC pay server, but I don't think that's, like, a scalable, straight I love the BTC pay project, but it's like running and hosting a BTC pay server is not really the ideal recommendation in terms of user friction and user onboarding. Like, the ideal situation to me, whether that's silent payments or something else, is some like, this has been the holy grail that we just haven't been able to unlock, is being able to just take a static string that's not a reused address, and just, like, post it to Twitter, post it to Nasr, post it on TikTok, and just receive donations. Do you understand where I'm coming from that? Yeah. No. I understand. And
[00:42:29] Praveen Perera:
I definitely think the privacy features like that are important. But, so in the audience, Johnny said we have enough advanced wallet software. We need a wallet for the wife. And I think that's something I wanna keep in mind, and I I think that applies here.
[00:42:45] ODELL:
But your your wife is gonna reuse addresses is what's gonna happen. Yeah. But realistically,
[00:42:50] Praveen Perera:
like, of of the let's say, of let's if a 100 people are using, Cove, how many of those people are accepting donations and in a visceral environment. Right? It's not it's not that I'm saying it's not important. It's just I think there's other things that need to be done first. Right? So if I had all the other things to be done so it it's it's coming and it's important. It's just not the first number one concern right now.
[00:43:21] ODELL:
Yeah. I don't even know if silent payments is the answer to that, to be clear. Yeah. Because it does have trade offs, and it's hard to implement cleanly.
[00:43:30] Praveen Perera:
And the and the other thing, with the Taproot support is just, one way I know to make a good UX app in general is to be the main customer of it. Right? So if I'm if I'm an actual user of the app, I don't need to guess what is good, what people need. There's a lot less guesswork. I know I know what it needs because I need it. Right? I don't use Taproot right now. I don't think old card supports Taproot. I could be wrong. I'm not a Taproot user, so it's just harder for me to create a Taproot wallet because I've I'm fully hardware only. So if I can't use it with my hardware wallet, I'm not sure how I would use it. Right? Again, it's not a deal breaker. It's just more work needs to be done. And, if, CoinGecko point. Yeah. If CoinGecko guys support, Taproot, I think I'll be more inclined to add support as well because then I can use it with my reward wallet. Right?
[00:44:33] ODELL:
I didn't even consider that. That's a that's a really good point. I Yeah. Coldcard only supports Taproot and their edge firmware, not their main firmware.
[00:44:49] Praveen Perera:
Yep. Yep.
[00:44:51] ODELL:
But, yeah, I do like that you're not asking, do you want legacy? Do you want wrap Segwit? Do you want native Segwit? You just default to native Segwit. To To the people that are confused, that's the beast the addresses that start with b c one.
[00:45:06] Praveen Perera:
And I that makes sense to me. Yeah. The less the less questions we have to ask the user, the better. But we don't wanna leave people in the dark. So what we do in the background is when you import a wallet that could be either of them, we actually scan, like, a hundred and hundred or 150 addresses for the other two, like, native sorry. Legacy addresses and the the three addresses. And if we find one, then we'll ask the user the question. Right? So we wanna keep that kind of, question minimizing ideas going forward, basically.
[00:45:42] ODELL:
So the another thing on new user versus power user front, a topic, I mean, look. I think this is gonna be the most rage inducing bull market that we've ever seen. I think most people are not gonna be happy. I've already seen the early signs of it. It's like Bitcoin is just fighting. We're, like, we're almost at a 110,000. We're basically at all time highs, and Bitcoin is just fighting about everything. And I I think that trend is gonna continue and accelerate. And not only will bit Bitcoiners be fighting over fighting with each other about the, quote, unquote, right way to use Bitcoin, but, obviously, the Bitcoin deniers, the people that hate Bitcoin are gonna be furious as well. So, like, literally, everyone's gonna be angry, or most people are gonna be angry. But one of the arguments lately has been, the difficulty of using seed words.
So on that front, obviously, right now, Cove just uses the straight seed standard. So you can if you create a hot wallet in Cove and, obviously, this only refers to the hot wallet because if you're using it with with cold storage, it's with the hardware wallet, it's just whatever the hardware wallet uses, which they all are using seeds. But on the hot wallet front, it uses, the seed seed word standard. How do you think about that in terms of backups and cloud and whatnot?
[00:47:09] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So, first of all, I think the fighting is good. I think if it's, it's good for Bitcoin. If we all get too agreeable and, you know, agree with everybody, I don't think that's good. I think the fighting is good. I welcome adversarial feedback as well. You know, tell me why Cove sucks. I think that that can be more helpful, if not as helpful, if not more helpful than, like, the the really good nice comments which I've received, which I appreciate. But, yeah, seed words. I love seed words. To me, Bitcoin is not Bitcoin without seed words because, you know, that that's what makes this offer to me. I I'm not saying there aren't trade offs, but, to me, Bitcoin represents a return to an era of personal responsibility.
Right? In gold, you're personally responsible for custodying, protecting your wealth. Right? And I think there's a lot of things that come downstream of that. Right? So I think that's where Bitcoin fixes this comes from. Right? It's not Bitcoin doesn't magically fix stuff. It fixes things because the way it is. Right? So you can't have an era of personal responsibility without personal responsibility. Right? So if you want Bitcoin, if you want the world Bitcoin brings, unfortunately, that means you're going to need to do some things different. You can't just you can't just go give it to a bank and, hey, you deal with it for me. That's not how it's gonna work. Right? So I I'm I'm in Bitcoin as for the for the new world, it's gonna bring as much as it is to get rich. You know? Don't get me wrong. I love, number go up, but I really do I am a firm believer in Bitcoin fixes this. And I think a large part of why it fixes this is because, of the personal responsibility that it takes to keep your wealth. So, yeah, I love seed words. To me, Bitcoin is seed words.
But I do believe that we could do things to I don't think people need to learn everything all at once. Right? So if someone's on a hot wallet, they are at the beginning of their journey. They have more to go. I think we should make c words easier to use, more secure. I love vault volts because of this. So, you know, I I think that would be a good soft fork,
[00:49:37] ODELL:
to have all You're not gonna get it. Yeah.
[00:49:40] Praveen Perera:
I I don't know. I don't know. I'm not in too much fighting about this, but I think it'd be great, because that lets you seed words but whilst, being safer. Right? To me, that's a better trade off. That's a better yeah. That's just that's just better than, like, getting rid of seed words. So with all that being said, I think some of the things I wanna bring to the Hot Wallet side is definitely a cloud backup. I was looking at the Phoenix, wallet, and the way they do it is great. Yeah. I like how Phoenix does it. Yeah. I I do think I wanna add because right now, basically, the their hot wallet, back cloud backup backs up to iCloud.
So they have noticed about, basically, the NSA and Apple collaborate. You know, they can steal your money, which is true, which is probably not a concern for someone already on a hot wallet. So I think it's a great trade off. I'm gonna make the same trade off. But I think I also wanna make, still make it a little bit more secure for the people that want it so you can add a PIN. Yeah. PIN or password or something like that. I think the way I think about security with offline and passwords and stuff like that is I think people are very against, like, password managers or, like, saving your seed word in, in a password manager, which I think makes a lot of sense. But I think you can combine it. Right? So save, have an encrypted backup in the cloud, but have the password to that backup in one password. Right? So now it's in two different places, two different companies, one password, whatever. If you believe then, they should, everything should be intent encrypted. It shouldn't be hackable. Right?
But basically, to rug you, it would be a lot of work. Right? Just in case it is hackable,
[00:51:28] ODELL:
you they would they would need them to collude and you would have to you have to have access to both the Google Drive account, the iCloud account,
[00:51:36] Praveen Perera:
or the whatever wherever your password manager is. Yeah. Exactly. Two different things. I I think, I think that's a great trade off. So so, yeah, I want I wanna do the Phoenix Way where, basically, you don't need anything as as when you download the app, on a new phone, it'll already be there because, iCloud, like, key chain password is already synced between devices. But I also want the step up, basically, encrypted backup and then here's your PIN or pick a PIN or password, save that somewhere. That does add complexity because then you need to let them know, hey. Like, without this PIN, without this password You're gonna lose your money. Yeah. So maybe I'll do something like, signal where they ask for your PIN every now and then. So like, to make sure you still have it. Like that. Yeah. So I and then I could verify that that PIN works without decrypting it. So right. So you there's lots of stuff you could do.
It's it's gonna be hard to find that balance, man, of, like, advanced versus easy. But, and the another thing I wanna do is, social recovery. I don't that might be a little later because I think it'll be more involved. You gotta figure out how to talk to people, which like, how do you do you do everything through Cove? Is there, like, a do you, you know, go through signal or whatever? But I think it would be another nice to have kind of feature. Yeah. Social recovery, you know, two or three, three or five, something like that.
[00:53:00] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, for social recovery, you could effectively keep a secret in the user's cloud account and then just have them, like, delegate one user that has another secret. I mean, I I would that would be, like, the most simple implementation of social recovery. And the use case I would think of is, like, I onboard my mom, and I'm her recovery, but I can't take her money.
[00:53:25] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So she would need yes. Yeah. So that would be a use case for the password. Basically, you give the password to someone, but you I have the password. Yeah. Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have the password. She has the encrypted backup in her iCloud and boom. Done. Yeah. I mean, I will say that
[00:53:42] ODELL:
I come from a time before seed words, and kids these days don't understand how easy they have it. Seeds are amazing. I mean, the number the number one thing you wanna be able to do with a backup is, first of all, be able to load it into another wallet just in case your wallet provider is unavailable, you know, whether that project becomes obsolete or you can't their servers go down, you can't access the app or whatever. You wanna be able to load it into another wallet. So seeds are beautiful that they're interoperable. And second of all, the single best security advice you can give to someone is to keep backups offline and never put it on the Internet. And why do we do that? That why do we keep backups offline? Why do we keep keys offline? It's because you threat modeling wise, you take out a whole set of threat actors. Actors. Anyone who would remotely try and compromise you and hack you through the Internet can't do that because the the secret is offline, and they have to actually come into your house or come into your office or whatever to get that secret.
And seed words are obviously words, so you can write those down. Like, trying to write out bare private keys is fucking insane. When I first started, I would print out my private keys and then destroy the printer, which is ridiculous. Like, the users aren't gonna do that. So seed words are great for that reason, but it is a paradigm shift for people that are not used to taking personal responsibility. And most people I have noticed, or a lot of people I've noticed, they're used to just, like, they lose their iPhone in a airport or something, and they do the iCloud recovery on their new iPhone, and most of their apps are there. And one of the two big things that they forget is a lot of times, there's a two factor apps because it's, like, a similar threat model. And then the second thing is the Bitcoin model. It's been three years or whatever, and they just assume the Bitcoin model is gonna be back there, which is why I think what Phoenix did is is quite clever, and their disclosures are really important because that basically I mean, look. For most people, Apple Apple and the US government aren't in their threat model. I think they're not actually concerned about those two parties stealing their money.
But Phoenix has a little bit more leeway, I think, because it's more geared as, like, a spending wallet. It's more of the cash you keep in your back pocket. And so, like, if you have, like, a thousand dollars in it and the NSA or Apple wanna steal your money, it's like, okay. They stole your money. Like, I I it's it's not it's not as big issue as if it's your life savings.
[00:56:23] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. And, similarly, I think in Cove, if you're on a hot wallet, you maybe we should add more more, like, wording around that. But, like, you know, if if you if you're keeping a real amount of money, you really should just get a hardware wallet. So I think that,
[00:56:44] ODELL:
the The hard part is it's hard to quantify what that is for the end user because there's no one size fits all. Like, I've heard people say, like, oh, like, you know, you need multisig if you're storing more than 250,000, and, like, you're better off in MSTR. Like, someone literally said that to me on Nasr. If you're not multi if you have over $250,000 and you're not using multisig, sig, you're better off in MSTR. And I, quite frankly, would rather have $250,000 in my Hot Wallet on Cove than in MSTR. Like, I think the trust model is better. But it just depend it depends on the user and what their threat model is, and that makes all of this way more if you if you wanna be honest about the trade offs, it makes that education onboarding experience. And there's there's no such thing as one size fits all advice. I think the the key is that, we're honest about the trade offs.
We make that clear to users and let them choose what works best for them.
[00:57:51] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And, yeah. Multi yeah. Multi stick is funny. I mean, it it's it's it's great, but not nothing is bulletproof. Right? In an era of personal responsibility, the only thing that will protect you is gonna be yourself. So figure out how to defend you, your home, and your family because people I think some people assume that, like, you know, you get broken into and because multistig is is great, at, like, physical attacks. Right? But they assume that someone's gonna break in and, like, they're like, oh, sorry. I got this amazing multisig setup. Like, you can't get it. What what they're just gonna leave? They're just gonna leave you alone? You know? They might not get your Bitcoin, but they might also not leave you alive. So Yeah. Really, like, Bitcoiners should really, you know, get used to getting good at defending themselves and their home and their property because
[00:58:41] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that is obviously a key part. Like, don't be a soft target. But I also like, it just depends who you are as a user. Right? Like, if you're if you're a public Bitcoiner, then, yes, like, you probably should be using geographically distributed multisig. You should probably not be able if you have a gun to your head, you should probably not be able to move those funds. If you're running an organization, then the CEO shouldn't be able to rug everybody. Like, that should be in multisig. Like, it'd be absolutely insane if OpenSats treasury was in single sig, and it'd be even more insane if it was in single sig hot hot wallet. Right? Like, that should be multisig, and it should be cold, and it should be distributed among people. So there's no single point of failure.
Absolutely. But it is interesting. I I think for the overwhelming majority of people, single sig cold storage is is more than enough, particularly if very few people know you're a Bitcoiner. And I I do think we're entering the era that people like, everyone has something to sell you. So they so, like, the rent attacks, for instance, have, I think, been overstated because we're entering an era that because Bitcoin exists, it's not just Bitcoiners that will be targeted more. I I think all rich people will be expected to pay Bitcoin ransoms. Like, that's not, there's a reason why billionaires pay $510,000,000 a year for security teams, and it's not because they're necessarily Bitcoiners.
It's because they're high value targets, and as a result, they need to account for that in their threat model. And so there's nuance to all these things. Yeah. These are the trade offs you get when you move into
[01:00:26] Praveen Perera:
an era where you can actually custody your wealth, I think. Like Exactly. That that's just, yeah. Yeah. And I don't love the collaborative custody model for privacy and other reasons for sure.
[01:00:39] ODELL:
Why don't you love the because it just for the privacy reasons because they know your amounts? Yeah. Yeah. I don't love that.
[01:00:47] Praveen Perera:
But, I mean, I understand why people use it. I'm not gonna go too hard on that. But, I don't know. The I think the FrostSnap guys just released their hard wall rear wallet. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah. I have it.
[01:01:02] ODELL:
Do I have it right here? I just had it in my hand, but I have a testing unit. Yeah. Pretty bullish on frost. I like that stuff.
[01:01:11] Praveen Perera:
I think, you know, it works around a lot of the multi sig pain points, I think. Excited to see where that goes.
[01:01:26] ODELL:
I I have, like, just a desk full of testing devices over here. But, yeah, the the cool thing about the FrostSnap is, like, it's like human centipede. Yeah. It's just it's just you connect them butt to butt, with the USB C to set up the multisig. I mean, I think collaborative custody is is, first of all, great for institutions, like organizations. And I think of it more as, like, a stepping stone for, like, full full blown personal responsibility self custody. Like, people I think it's the single most important thing with the collaborative custody stuff is the handhold. Like, whether you're using Unchained, AnchorWatch, Casa, it's like you have a customer support person that is explaining to you what seeds are, helping you set up the hardware wallets, getting you comfortable, and helping you in inheritance and disaster recovery.
Yeah. And people just like the handhold. Yeah. But but, obviously, it comes with a with a privacy concern.
[01:02:35] Praveen Perera:
And I think, BTC sessions and them, they had a new company that's basically hand hold as a service. Right? I think it's called Bitcoin Mentor. I think they Yeah. They do that. You yeah. You know, if if the free hand holding gets too much for you, just send them there.
[01:02:51] ODELL:
Fair enough.
[01:02:53] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But I I think what I was gonna say is, yeah, I'm I'm definitely I love I'm definitely okay with any of these, like, step stepping stone type of services that get you to a better place. But what the that's why I don't like the BitKeeper, though, because I don't think that's a stepping stone. I think if it was marketed as such, hey. Like, this is your first Bitcoin wallet, and then later when you figure out what everything means, you can get to a better place. I think if they marketed like that, it would be better. But as it is right now, that's not how they talk about it. This is your first final and only Bitcoin wallet, and I don't love that.
[01:03:32] ODELL:
Fair enough. I mean, I think the messaging could be better. But let's go through the same thought experiment I used earlier. Regular individual wants to invest $200,000 into Bitcoin. Are they better off in MSTR, or are they better off with the big key?
[01:03:50] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Definitely big key. So, I mean yeah. That makes sense. And I think what, last time I was talking with, Ben, and I think he was just basically saying that nobody wants to buy a hardware wallet knowing that they'll have to buy another one in the future. So I I guess that explains the messaging. But and but, I mean, you don't have to shit all overseas. You know? Like, just I know. The seedless stuff is Yeah. Seedless is safer is just
[01:04:17] ODELL:
a just a just a really bad messaging. Yeah. Focus on using because I don't I mean, I don't think seedless is safer, but it depends on your it depends on your technical competence and threat model. For some people, it might be. Yeah. I've had I've had friends that call me in a panic because they wrote down their seeds wrong or Yep. Or they've lost them, and their ledger is, like, one pin away from wiping itself, and they're, like, freaking out. Okay. Well, this all sounds awesome. I mean, like, I'm really excited. I see a comment on the YouTube chat.
By the way, Freaks, I've been, like, shitting all over YouTube for years now, and I also include nostrilinks in the show notes on YouTube. And I used to include copyrighted music in dispatches. So as a result, I'm pretty sure I'm heavily heavily shadowbanned on YouTube. But I'm just gonna keep streaming there because I know a lot of people like using it on their TV or whatever. The app ecosystem for YouTube is just bar none great. But if you do still use YouTube, if you're one of the billions of people that still use YouTube and you're not subscribed to the CIL dispatch channel, if you could go and click subscribe there, maybe get me out of purgatory, that would that would be appreciated. But someone in the YouTube chat, AquaLife, asked when will you support more than cold card? And Praveen answered this earlier. He thinks in the next couple of weeks, he's gonna open up the QR code capability.
And right now, he's he's just supporting what is it? BB QR, which is I get which is cold card crux. And did you say someone else supports I'm not I'm not sure who else.
[01:06:05] Praveen Perera:
I I mean, it's the standard. I know those two for sure. And, the crux guys also tested, COVID with their stuff, so I know it works. I mean, technically, like Seed Signer, Foundation, Jade, whatever, they can all work. You just have to use files. So it's it can work. It's just not Or NFC. Great. Or NFC. Yeah. If But I don't think those support NFC. Yeah. But But, again, if any of them wanna send me the hardware devices so I can test, I will and, make a video, and then I'll know for sure if it works or not.
[01:06:37] ODELL:
Yeah. I, and just out there, like, BBQR is, an open an open spec. It's open source, and anyone can implement it. And the advantages of it is that it's a much more compact QR spec,
[01:06:55] Praveen Perera:
so it's easier to scan. Right? Yeah. It's much more compact, easier to scan. But also on the developer side, it's so easy to support. I I did it in, like, couple hours. It's easy. I start tried doing the UR, standard and then it was just confusing. I worked on a few few hours. There's, like, deprecated ones. There's, like, I I think a lot of them are in UR two point o and I was, I guess, trying to do one point o. It was a mess. I I don't like it. I wish everybody just used b b q r, but I guess that's not the reality. So I have to support the other ones as well.
[01:07:27] ODELL:
Awesome. Okay. Well, I'm really excited about Cove. Thank you for building it. The I'm kinda curious. So, I mean, this is a weird I don't know how long you've been a Bitcoiner, but this is a bit of a weird cycle. We're we're in a a weird timeline. I think we're in the best timeline for Bitcoin, but it's a weird timeline. How are you thinking about the overall industry where we're at right now? How do you think about it as a Bitcoiner?
[01:07:58] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Hold on. Before we get to that, I wanna run can I run some ideas by you for Cove? Get some live feedback? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. So we were talking about, connecting to wallets. What do you think sorry. Connecting to nodes. What do you think about the idea of, have for people running their own nodes have, like, a helper thing that they can run on their node in a box or on their computer, where you can and then Cove could connect directly to that, and then you can access it from anywhere. Like a Cove companion app on start nine?
[01:08:33] ODELL:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. Alright. Ack. Okay. Ack.
[01:08:39] Praveen Perera:
The other one is I'm not sure why most people more this hasn't been done. One of the things I always I was testing Cove with the, like, low entropy wallet just like because there's there's transactions that I can look at and stuff. So abandoned, abandoned, abandoned, like, 24 times. While I was testing that, I know so there's a bunch of, like, transactions that people have swiped. Right? So I noticed, like, 2,000,000 sat transaction coming through. I'm thinking of a feature called bad entropy detector. Basically, you make a, a database of, like, just you can make it as big as you want, but you can start with, like, you know, the thousand most lowest entropy wallets that are known. Right? So you can start with and, like, I know a lot of people have or some people have lost money with the doing the the dice rolls on cold card wrong, like, only doing a few I think they they made it harder.
But, basically, you make a little database, and if you try to import one of those, like, known wallets, you either say no altogether or, like, big warning saying, like, if you put any money in here, it will be taken.
[01:09:44] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think if it's if it's relatively low lift, like, that would be great to have. Okay. Cool. And the reason I say relatively low lift because I think it's mostly edge cases. Like, I don't think that will be that common.
[01:09:59] Praveen Perera:
Well, yeah. I mean, that's hard to say because I I think I think there's, like, you know, people losing money this way every every week. Because, like, if you look at some of these wallets to use, like, they're it it happen it it happens quite a bit. Like, I've seen people talk about it on Twitter. Someone I know was, like, testing out a wallet or, like, the dice rolls, and I think they lost, like, a $100. I think I was talking to Dee. I think they get support questions about that. So yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe more research on, like, how common it is or but I I think I you could start, like I think you let them import it, but you just
[01:10:36] ODELL:
scare the shit out of them. Yeah.
[01:10:38] Praveen Perera:
Sounds good. I'm just looking through my list to see if I want any live feedback from you in the audience. Talked about c. How important is an address viewer? Basically, like a list of previously used addresses and, the next 25 addresses. And right now, you get, like, one address at a time, but, like, how important do you think it is to see previous addresses and stuff like that?
[01:11:06] ODELL:
Maybe put that in the advanced menu or something. I there there is something maybe not advanced. There's there's something about new users where they think if they receive a payment to an old address, they won't get it. I don't know if that's the best way to handle that, though. I mean, obviously, I'm I'm kinda thinking about what Sparo does They show the full list of addresses when you click in. I will say on an organization level, it's a feature I use all the time, because we're doing multiple transact like, OpenSats, for instance, we're doing multiple transactions. Like, I constantly need to verify addresses and go into the history.
But does the average user use that? I don't know.
[01:12:00] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So maybe lower on the list.
[01:12:02] ODELL:
Yeah. Especially since Cove is not multisig. So, like, it's there's never a situation where I'd be using it for something like Open Sats Yeah. On the payout side. On that note, though, like, it'd be interesting, to know when an address has been reused in the main wallet screen.
[01:12:24] Praveen Perera:
So if you get, like, a transaction into an address that was already used,
[01:12:29] ODELL:
like, like, a little indicator saying, like Yeah. Maybe, like, a little yeah. Like or, like, a little red exclamation point or something.
[01:12:36] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I can see that scaring new users, but, again, maybe in a like, an advanced advanced Well, we see that with dust attacks. I mean, you said you wanted more privacy stuff.
[01:12:47] ODELL:
You know, I I'll send someone will send you $10 to an address that you already used, hoping that you'll combine it with a future output.
[01:12:56] Praveen Perera:
Yes. And and on that note, I think one thing I haven't added yet is the ability to lock UTXO. So, that's coming soon as well. And that'll work with the label. So it should, transfer over with Sparrow. Okay. Last last question about features. How important do you think a desktop app is? Because, yeah. Here's my thinking behind this. If someone prefers using desktop, I think it'd be nice to have a really nice, well designed, modern looking UI. But the other thing is if you're using desktop, will they just use Sparrow instead? So should I focus just on mobile? It's not a huge lift because, like, it's just kinda changing the screens to work better with the added real estate. But, yeah, what do you think about that?
[01:13:47] ODELL:
I like desktop because of the thing we talked about earlier when if you're just recommending a wallet, you don't have to ask what platform. Right. It's the same reason why like, I I think just all things equal, multi platform multi platform apps are just the best because I don't have to ask if they're desktop, Android, or iPhone. I just say install primal.
[01:14:13] Praveen Perera:
Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that was all my all my questions. Do you have any feature requests for Cove you wanna make or the audience? I don't know. Freaks, do you have any I I see pseudo Carlos
[01:14:25] ODELL:
said to not show all the addresses. You're just gonna scare people.
[01:14:33] Praveen Perera:
Okay. I think that's fair. It is probably pretty I mean, maybe that's an advanced menu thing. Yeah. Maybe it's something you can just you can enable, but it starts off disabled. Yeah. Makes sense to me.
[01:14:45] ODELL:
Freaks, if you have any future requests, either put them in a live chat or you can tag Perveen on x or Noster. I have I'm gonna put I'll put all the links to those to to his socials in in the show notes.
[01:15:05] Praveen Perera:
Alright. So what was your question again?
[01:15:09] ODELL:
State of Bitcoin. How you how you think about Bitcoin right now? Are you bullish? Are you bearish? Industry tools? Yeah. I understand.
[01:15:19] Praveen Perera:
Officially or, like, overall, I think I'm pretty bullish. I feel like as I've been working on Cove, I've been paying attention to price and Bitcoin a lot less. I've just been very focused on Cove. Definitely bullish. I think the MSTR stuff is interesting. I'm not gonna buy it, but I'm not a super purist on it. Like, I I guess it's bringing more people into Bitcoin that might not have been in it. I guess the question will be, are they going to eventually, transition into self custody? And I think yes. And I'm not I don't think, like, paper Bitcoin is a is a big concern, to be honest.
So I think overall
[01:16:09] ODELL:
Why don't you think paper Bitcoin is a concern?
[01:16:12] Praveen Perera:
I just think if you could paper over Bitcoin as you could with gold, then Bitcoin wouldn't be Bitcoin. Right? The reason Bitcoin is Bitcoin is because it's hard to do. Because everybody acting, in their own self interest makes, and the fact that anybody can custody it, I think, makes it really hard for one someone to paper over it because it affects everybody. So if some Yeah. If the market thinks that's happening, they'll, you know, they'll act on it. Yeah. I think self interest. My thesis is that short term, you can. Yeah. Short term. And
[01:16:47] ODELL:
people might get wrecked through individual things or whatever. And, you know, it's not just MSTR now. There's, you know, a a ton of, like, penny stocks that are, like, converting into, quote, unquote, Bitcoin treasury companies. And some of them may commit fraud and people lose their money. Yeah. But in terms of as an overall network, I think anyone who plays paper Bitcoin games will eventually specifically, if they're, like, effectively net short Bitcoin and are trying to suppress the price, they'll just get blown the fuck up. At at some point, they will blow up, because people will just keep buying Bitcoin, taking self custody, and the supply will get scarcer and scarcer until they blow up. And that's kinda what we saw with BlockFi and FTX and Celsius.
[01:17:32] Praveen Perera:
Exactly. And I think that's long term bullish. So,
[01:17:36] ODELL:
yeah. I think I think the bigger issue, though, the bigger issue is to your point with Bitkey. If you're you have issues with Bitkey's messaging and the lack of flow to move to a more secure setup, like, someone buying MSTR in their brokerage account is so far away from self custodying Bitcoin. Like, I don't know what that flow is, particularly, if if MSTR keeps outperforming Bitcoin too because they have a financial incentive to give up that personal responsibility, give up the self custody for the better gains. Yeah.
[01:18:13] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but what I'm thinking is 10 x fixes everything. Basically, you know, you buy MSDR,
[01:18:19] ODELL:
Bitcoin 10 x is now you get nervous. Like, I've heard about all this. Have to take you'd have to take a 20% in America, you'd have to take a 20% hit on taxes to do that transaction, though.
[01:18:30] Praveen Perera:
Oh, yeah. I guess it's realized. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, the thing is that a lot of people that I know that are Bitcoiners that are buying MSTR, are buying it in tax advantaged, accounts. So I'm not super familiar with The US stuff right now, but in The U Canada, there's CFSA's and RRSPs and stuff where where you wouldn't be you wouldn't you wouldn't take a hit. But then, I mean, you might not wanna take it out anyway. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. You don't take a hit as long as you keep it there in the tax advantage account, but you would take a hit if you tried to bring it into self custody anyway. And that's Yeah. I mean, look. I don't think
[01:19:06] ODELL:
I don't think it's, like, an attack on Bitcoin. I don't I don't think, like, it I think if you if you if you net net everything out, like, MSTR is just end sale is, like, clearly a net benefit for Bitcoin Yeah. As a whole. The cons and the concern is more for individuals. And at the end of the day, I'm also not paternalistic. Like, part of a movement of personal responsibility is that if people wanna get Bitcoin exposure, quote, unquote, use Bitcoin in different ways, like, that like, that's their prerogative. They can do whatever they want. But I do think I do think it's an interesting dichotomy where people will be very hardcore about the risks of sixty one zero two attacks and go very deep in on one side of the Bitcoin community and go very deep on, you need to have multisig. Sig, you need to have this, you need to have privacy, you need to have all these other things. And then, like, 99% of the new money is just opening up Charles Schwab and Yeah. Buying, buying a Bitcoin stock. Yeah. I mean, maybe you think it's,
[01:20:17] Praveen Perera:
hypocritical that I kinda went harder on Vicky than I did on MSTR. And I I guess I understand that, but at the same time, MSTR is not pretending to be self custody. Right?
[01:20:28] ODELL:
It's like I
[01:20:32] Praveen Perera:
guess. It's it's it's not. It's pretending it's it's, you know, you get Bitcoin exposure. That's it's Well, no. You get you get better than Bitcoin exposure is the marketing.
[01:20:42] ODELL:
They will outperform Bitcoin.
[01:20:45] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. But they they with MSTR, you're buying NGU. You're not buying all the other stuff. Right? So I think it I think, personally, it makes sense. I I don't think it's super hypocritical to go go at, Vicky because they are pretending and they are being self custody. Again, like,
[01:21:08] ODELL:
I I think your points made sense. I'm just not a fan of the, you know, the the shit. Well, look, look, I'm not just I'm not just picking up Vicky. Like, the latest thing that people are fighting about, is while the Satoshi added Spark wallets Spark SDK support, which is,
[01:21:26] Praveen Perera:
you know What is that?
[01:21:29] ODELL:
It's so it's, it's a state chain, right, which is similar to Mercury layer. I don't know if you're familiar with Mercury layer, but it's one of those things that, like, sits in between so, basically, LightSpark took Mercury layer state chain implementation, and then they which is open source, and they modified it a bit to take out the privacy benefits, and that's what Spark is. And the way it's set up is if if the operator of the state chain and this is my understanding is this is because there's been no soft fork, but, presumably, we could have a soft fork that makes the trust model better. But as it currently stands, the operator of the state chain can't take your money unless they're actively being malicious, because it it involves swaps. So you need the person you're swapping with, would need to collude with the operator to take your money. But, of course, there's a situation as well where the operator could be the person you're swapping with, and you don't even know.
So it, like, sits in between self custody and custodial. Mhmm. I would put liquid in, like, a kind of another similar basket where, I think, technically, you can't you shouldn't be able you shouldn't call that self custody, because there's trust in the federation. Yeah. But it's strictly better than a single seg custodian, like a traditional custodial model. But, anyway, and then on one side, you have these companies that don't wanna be regulated like custodians. Right? So LightSpark and Wallet and Satoshi don't wanna do KYC, don't wanna be regulated as custodians. So they're never gonna say the quiet part out loud. And then you have the hardcore technical people that are like, this is not self custody. You can't call this self custody.
And they'll never gonna agree with each other because they're both arguing from different perspectives. One's trying to play regulatory arbitrage because Tron gets away with pretending that they're self custody even though you can't self custody on Tron because Justin Sun just owns the whole thing. And so they're arguing from different levels. And then meanwhile, 99% of the money is going into MSTR. And that's that's the part of this cycle that's weird to me. Like, that's the like, I love I love that Bitcoin's an adversarial environment, but it's just a weird dichotomy from, like, the realest like, if if someone uses Bitcoin for the first time on Walletist Associates powered by Spark SDK, that's a win. To me, that's a massive win. Like, we've just won another person using Bitcoin and transacting in Bitcoin rather than buying a stock.
So that's how I think about it. Does that makes any sense?
[01:24:09] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I mean, if you think about custody and soft custody is how many people does it take to rug you? Yes. If Spark only takes one person to rug you, how is that better than MSTI? I feel like you need way more people to rug you. Like, you know, there's regulators. There's all these, like you know, the government might need to get involved. Well, no. I mean, m s MSTR,
[01:24:31] ODELL:
you're trusting first of all, you're trusting the government. It's like it's like one executive order away from a sixty one zero two at, like, any point. Yeah. So you're so you're trusting the government. Rug. Yeah. And you're trusting three corporations. You're trusting your brokerage account. You're trusting Sailor and MSTR, and then you're trusting his custodian.
[01:24:53] Praveen Perera:
Okay. So you Any of those three could rug you? Yeah. Okay. So there's multiple parties, and any one of them could rug you Individually. Individually where you just park you one party, and they would need to rug. I guess I I guess that's better, but, like, how am I gonna do that? It's about three three counterparty is better. At at at that point, why not just use liquid then? Like, isn't, it wouldn't liquid what's the liquid app that does lightning, like, Mun or Moon? What's that one again? Well, no. So Moon does on chain swaps. Yeah. No. I mean, the one that does it Aqua. Aqua. Right? So why not Aqua over, Spark then? It takes you would need more people to rug you on Aqua. Because,
[01:25:38] ODELL:
yeah, you would need more people because I I think the active federation of Liquid is like a sixteen sixteen entity multisig. So Liquid has a strictly better trust model from that point of view, because the swaps have, heavy fee burden at small amounts. So Yeah. So with Spark with Spark, you could your first Bitcoin receipt could be a 100 sats. You can't you can't do that with liquid swaps because there's this cost. There's to there there's there's fee cost there.
[01:26:14] Praveen Perera:
Well, I was listening to I think it was on settled dispatch with Evan, and they were he was talking about using, e cash first and then going to Lightning.
[01:26:26] ODELL:
I like that flow. Yeah. I mean, you could do the same thing with Spark. You could Yeah. You could effectively like, once you hit a 100,000 sats or something in a Spark wallet, you could graduate them too. Yeah.
[01:26:39] Praveen Perera:
Well, I mean, I'm not super familiar with Spark, but maybe I'm missing something. But if you think about self custody versus custodial as how many people it takes to rug you, I don't see how Spark is any different than Mint or eCash because, like, it's one party who needs to rug you. Right? If anything, eCash, you could make the argument better because because you can split your money among many Mints. And then to rug a 100%, you would need more than one person to rug you.
[01:27:10] ODELL:
Yeah. I I think I think the difference is the key difference is it's really hard for a cashew mint operator to legally argue in court that they're not custodial. They're clearly custodial. And I think LightSpark is I think they received, like, a $165,000,000 from a 16 z, and we'll have a decent case in court that there's they're gonna try and fight if they have to, they will fight this in court that they're self custody and that they don't have to do KYC. And that's what I'm saying. That's the and so if you're a wallet provider, and I love Cashew, but if you're a wallet provider like Zeus, I asked Evan this, and Evan was like, which mint do the users choose, especially if they're a new user. Right? And how do you guide them to pick the right mint? And the wallet providers don't want to do that. They don't wanna have the liability of be like, use MiniBits.
Use this Mint. So they kinda just throw the user out to the to the sharks, and they're like, pick your own Mint. Maybe they have a NASDAQ recommendation system or something. But if you're the guy who's running well to Satoshi and the quote, unquote Mint or the provider can just be a 16 z backed LightSpark, and you can just put your users there, I can see how you that would be a more comfortable decision to sleep at night than just throw them out there and be like, pick your mint on your own. Yeah. That makes sense.
[01:28:38] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. But, do you know if well, does Satoshi guides them to, like, a LSB or something when they have more more,
[01:28:46] ODELL:
It doesn't right now. No. I have the beta. But I wouldn't be surprised if they move to some kind of I mean, I think you could also what might be cleaner for an end user is screw the LSP model. Just when they hit a 100,000 sides, bring them on chain.
[01:29:05] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But then, I mean, as as fees go up, and then what if you wanna
[01:29:09] ODELL:
spend a 100,000? Well, I have a live view of the mempool right now.
[01:29:13] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But, I mean, it's not gonna be one forever. Right? I mean, I don't think so.
[01:29:17] ODELL:
Well, let's juice those numbers, and then we can then we can make the then we can make the operations more efficient. But I don't know. I just there's something to be said about the beauty of on chain. And I I as long as people can afford the fees on chain, like, maybe the threshold isn't a 100,000 sats. What a 100,000 sats right now is a $100.
[01:29:38] Praveen Perera:
Yeah.
[01:29:39] ODELL:
I don't think David Marcus is probably not gonna wanna go to jail for stealing a $100 from you. So maybe a 100,000 isn't the right number. Maybe it's five 100,000 sets, and then you just graduate them on chain. And then you can just skip Lightning channels, which are also gonna have an on chain fee. Yeah. And you just skip Lightning channels, and you do all Lightning sends and receives in the I think someone called it a trustodial model in the in the
[01:30:08] Praveen Perera:
middle model. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why I'm complaining. I'm, for when it comes to lightning, I basically just use primal right now. I'm, like, full on custodial. It's straight up custodial with k y with, like, KYC, but KYC nonetheless. Yeah. Exactly. But I'm maybe just just don't call it self custodial because I think while, while it is What they was, marketing it as self custodial, but I guess
[01:30:31] ODELL:
for legal reasons. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. If you say it's custodial and you're not doing KYC, then Yeah. Okay. That's a good point. They're never gonna admit they're never gonna admit it out loud. Okay. Okay. Okay. I get it. There's a reason why Justin's son always says Tron is self custody.
[01:30:48] Praveen Perera:
Yeah.
[01:30:49] ODELL:
Right? Because it's he doesn't wanna go to the gulag.
[01:30:52] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. I get it. Yeah. I mean, definitely, right now, lightning as much as, like, the technical people say, the best way to use it the only nice way to use it is with some sort of custodial model Or Phoenix. In my opinion. Ever yeah. I've heard Phoenix is good.
[01:31:12] ODELL:
I But is Phoenix I think I think there's you could make a tactical argument that Phoenix is custodial too. Custodial too. If if by your definition, if it only takes one party to rug. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the best definition of custodial because, like, that ultimately, that's what matters. Right? Like, how many people does it take?
[01:31:32] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. It does with my Bitcoin on chain in a cold card, it doesn't matter how many people collude. You cannot rug me. Right? Yep. That's the one one spectrum, and the other one is, let's say, cash and mint. Just one unknown person can rug you. Yeah.
[01:31:46] ODELL:
I know. I think that's a good definition. I see Johnny's asking if my suite UI is available, mempool. I think it's mempool.space slash clock is the yeah, mempool dot space slash clock is the background I use for dispatch. Soap miner zapped 10,000 sats. Thank you, Soap Miner, for supporting the show. Soap miner has some of the best homemade soap, and he accepts Bitcoin. It's the only soap my family uses. Dami x RV and x is asking, what percentage of users will use custodial services or or self custody in ten years? Praveen.
[01:32:38] Praveen Perera:
Oh, man. That's so hard. I have no idea what the next ten years is gonna look like. In ten years, What percentage? I have oh, what percentage of Bitcoin users? Okay. Let's say 5%.
[01:32:55] ODELL:
Customer I think that's it. I mean, self custodial. Yeah. I think I think if you did it in terms of Bitcoin amount, it'd be significantly higher. It'd be like 70% or something. But in terms of number of users, like individuals, it's probably closer to 5%. And, like, our single goal should be to try and increase that number that percentage.
[01:33:23] Praveen Perera:
Oh, that's pretty bullish, though. If you can get 70% of amount Bitcoin amount in custo self custody,
[01:33:30] ODELL:
that's that's good. Right? That's, I mean, I think that's kinda where we're at right now. Yeah.
[01:33:35] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So it's just not many people. Yeah. So what are we also worried about then? It's all good. No. Not everybody can use the main chain anyway.
[01:33:43] ODELL:
Well, awesome. Praveen, this is great. Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap here?
[01:33:54] Praveen Perera:
No. Thanks for having me on. It's been fun.
[01:33:58] ODELL:
When you release Android, you'll come back on?
[01:34:01] Praveen Perera:
Yep. Sounds good. And before I do, I will put out a beta. So anybody listening that's really Android's been number one requested thing, so help me test it.
[01:34:11] ODELL:
Awesome. And, yeah, any if you are testing the iOS app, give them your feedback. All feedback is helpful.
[01:34:17] Praveen Perera:
Yes.
[01:34:18] ODELL:
Freaks, I
[01:34:21] Praveen Perera:
have a great skip. Yep. Go on. Sorry. One more thing. If you are using, the iOS app right now and you like it, please leave a review. I think that helps, move up in the search rankings on Apple when someone searches for it, which should be very helpful.
[01:34:37] ODELL:
Yeah. Definitely leave a review right now if you search Bitcoin wallet. It's, the top wallet is Trust Wallet by Binance and then a bunch of other horrible, horrible wallets. So every review helps. And while you're there, you know, like and subscribe to Cielo Dispatch in your favorite podcast app. Freaks, I have a great lineup set up for us. July 7. So what is that? I think that's Monday. Yeah. Monday, I have Jeff and Max coming on. They're doing white noise, which is basically signal, but on Noster, so secure messaging on Noster. Then July 11, I have a conversation about webs of trust using Nasr.
July 14, an AI chat with Matt Alberg of PPQ AI, Ben Kaufman of Keeper Wallet, Cali from Cashew. Gleason's gonna come back. But, yeah, we got a great lineup, and then Praveen's gonna ship Android, and then he's gonna come back. Praveen, thanks again for joining. Thanks again for building building Cove, and, we'll talk soon. Talk soon. Good one. Awesome. Stay on those tax hats, freaks. Peace.
Everyone's always asking me, hey, Jack. If Trump's official policy is America first and telling China get their money out of the country, and everyone goes, well, isn't the stock market then gonna have to go down? And I say, yes, absolutely. They say, but Jack, it keeps going up. Going up in what? Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 10/24/1929, the Great Depression. The DGIA hits its lowest point on 07/08/1932, 89% below its September 29 peak, defining the most significant bear market in Wall Street's history. The market would not return to its 1929 high until 1954. The Great Depression. So the stock market down 89%.
And people say, but, Jack, the stock market has not been down that much in recent memory. In 1929, the dollar is backed by gold. So the stock market was down 89% in gold terms. That's why it was a real depression. You see? Let me show you. From 2000 to 02/2011, the stock market was down 89% in gold terms. So if you measured the stock market in gold, you already lived through a great depression, hotshot. You just didn't see it. We had a great depression in plain sight. How? Manipulation of the money. What I'm saying is, yes, the stock market is going to get obliterated. Obliterated.
In what? Not in dollars. Stop looking at things in dollars. You're gonna miss these things in broad daylight. The whole world has already lived through stock market crashes, just not in dollar terms. People say, oh, man. My stock portfolio is up again this year. Weird. Why can't I afford rent? That's weird. Why am I getting less groceries? That's weird. Filling up my tank is really expensive, but my stock market went up. Depends what you're measuring in. You understand? The S and P 500 against Bitcoin over the last five years, Down 81%.
What about food? Food's down 85% against Bitcoin in the last five years. We lived through a depression and a performance that was greater than the Great Depression, but no one batted an eye because they used the wrong measuring stick.
[00:03:14] ODELL:
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Serial Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. That intro clip was Jack Mallers, cofounder no. Founder and CEO of Strike. Disclosure, ten thirty one is the largest investor in Strike, the largest shareholder outside of Jack himself. I have a great show lined up for us today. As always, sale dispatch is purely funded by our audience with Bitcoin donations. The two ways you can do that is through our Nostril live chat or through podcasting two o two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts. All links are at silldispatch.com.
The largest Zap we got on podcasting two point o last episode with Alex Gleeson was one of the most interesting guests on CD. Would love to see him join more often. That was Beholder with 5,000 sats. Alex is gonna come back on August 15. So I've already lined up a repeat conversation with him. We're gonna make those more often, and he's got a lot of big updates that will hopefully be ready to go when we have that conversation. Anyway, Freaks, I have Praveen here. He is, the creator and lead maintainer of Cove Wallet, a new wallet available on iOS with aims to go broader and be available on more platforms. How's it going, Praveen?
[00:04:53] Praveen Perera:
Good. Good. Good to be here.
[00:04:55] ODELL:
Thank you for joining. Listener. First time caller. Well, it's good to have you. Thanks for, I'm I I it's the little things. It's the little things, that keep me going. And, I saw a comment from you that said, I've been listening to dispatch for years, and this was the first episode that I was disappointed in or something along those lines. Or, like, I'm a huge dispatch fan, but this was the first episode I didn't like. And I was like, oh, wow. That's awesome. Yeah. That a 165 episodes, if you like most of them, that's that's it it means a lot. Let me put it that way. Yeah. You're you're just too nice.
Okay. So, I mean, we can jump into that. But before we do, let's talk about Covell. What is Covell? Why should people care? What is the goal?
[00:05:56] Praveen Perera:
Okay. So the goal of Cove Wallet is to be basically the simple Bitcoin only mobile wallet. I try to say it's as much about what it doesn't do as what it does do. So it doesn't do it does not and will not ever do lightning or multisig, for example. Because there's great apps that already do that, but that's not in our wheelhouse of trying to be really simple. Also, the other thing is it's on iOS, and we wanted to make it look really nice. That might I think that's a high priority, especially for people coming in. When you see a nice well designed app, you you trust it. It's, easier to use, more intuitive. So our the bar we set was, if Apple designed a wallet, how would it look? So we wanted to make it super native, look look like it belongs on iOS.
But the other thing the other side of it is just because it's simple, we didn't want to limit its functionality. So we want it to be simple while basically having everything an advanced Bitcoiner would need other than, you know, the stuff we don't support like lightning and multisig. So it's feature rich. We wanna follow all the standards. We follow bips as much as we can, for labels. You know, we follow that bip, BIP three twenty nine. But big thing is, PSPST support. So before before Cove, I was using, Green Wallet, which I think is a very nice wallet, but it was basically impossible to use with, hardware wallets.
Not nice in not in a nice way, at least. So, so I wanted to keep the design top notch, but, basically, allow me to use it with the hardware wallets I already use. And, so far, we've definitely, achieved that, I think, mostly because Cove is now my daily driver for whenever I, use Bitcoin. I I use the computer less. I use my phone more. And, yeah. So it's it's been easy to judge because I I am the first customer of Cove. I've been using it a lot more, and I've been really liking it, but definitely stuff I wanna work on still as well.
[00:07:59] ODELL:
So, basically, the way I think about it is the goal of Cove, is to provide a very easy way for people to securely use their hardware wallet of choice on a mobile, you know, in a mobile in a mobile environment without a desktop computer. And kind of I mean, I'm curious on your opinion here. I've been known to call it the Sparrow wallet of mobile, and that's primarily because I absolutely rely on Sparrow wallet, and there's no second best. But one of the big complaints that I've seen about Sparrow, especially through education, through onboarding people to use it, is that it can be a little overwhelming. It can be a little bit, power user focused, in the beginning. And kind of the cool part with Cove is you can start simple. You can start easy. It doesn't really overwhelm you, but you still have the power user features, kind of in the background, if if you wanna use them as you as you learn more and get more comfortable.
[00:09:10] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. It's a hard line to tow. Just wanted to answer audience question. Is it open source? Yes. Fully open source MIT license. It's on GitHub. Everything's there.
[00:09:21] ODELL:
And Praveen is, an open SaaS grantee.
[00:09:24] Praveen Perera:
Yes. Mhmm. Thank you to you guys. Without you and BDK, wouldn't have been able to do this. We can get into BDK a bit later. Yeah. I understand, like, the, like, Sparrow for mobile thing, but I don't know if it's the best description just because Sparrow does so much. Right? And, Craig works really hard to support, like, everything. And that's great, and it's really good for power users, but we kind we kinda have different goals. Right? So, like, Veritas, MultiStick, and all that. But we I I really wanna be, like, simple user first, and then, the goal was basically as the user moves through their Bitcoin journey, learns more, they're able to naturally use find these advanced features and and and use them. So for example, I think coin control is a good example of this.
When you send even in in Cove, when you try to send Bitcoin, just the normal way, there's no coin control because I couldn't think of a way to add that which would still be simple and, like, wouldn't have people asking questions. Because something I've noticed is, like because before COVID, I, like, helped a lot of people use Bitcoin, I'm sure, which a lot of Bitcoiners probably have. But it's just, you lose people when there's, like, something they don't recognize and it's just like, what is this? So even if you think, hey. Like, the person doesn't need to know what this is. If they don't know, don't use it. If they see it and they're like, I don't know what this is, they will they might get stuck. They're like, oh, you know, I don't wanna miss make a mistake, which is good. They they don't wanna make a mistake. So if they see something they don't know, they'll they'll they'll get stuck. They'll just stop there. So if you go through the normal sign flow, there's no coin control. There we have three dots at the top. That's like our kinda advanced, do more features kinda thing, and and it says manage UTXO.
So the idea is, like, if you don't know what that is, you won't click it, but it's you're not you're not in the middle of a flow, so it's not gonna interrupt you. It's just in the main, main screen where you see all your transactions. So if you go through there, you can see all your UTXOs. You can select them, and and yeah. And and just do a normal concurrent control as you expect. Yeah. I guess to get to your, for the question is I I I I love Sparrows, so it's a compliment to be called the Sparrow of, mobile, but we do have different goals in that. I really focus on being simple, simple, simple, wallet.
[00:11:56] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that also makes sense, because it's mobile focused as well. I I think in general, you we probably see the overwhelming majority of people who use Bitcoin in five years will be doing it from a mobile app. But the overwhelming majority of power users will probably still be doing it on desktop. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I know myself personally, I I I tend to be more comfortable on desktop, for managing savings.
[00:12:35] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I I agree. But I think me I I I right now, I use both because Yeah. So when you get, you know, you get paid in Bitcoin for open SaaS, unfortunately, I need to sell some to live. So that is, like, my daily, monthly account. Right? So that, I use with mobile. But, like, if I have a a a cold storage, deep storage that never moves, that maybe I'll only use with, desktop.
[00:13:01] ODELL:
Yeah. And that goes to your belief that we we don't need to have multisig in Cove. Because if you're gonna do multisig savings, then you learn how to use Sparrow. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's key I think it's key so, I mean, this was, a pretty cool case study cove, because some of some of us at at Open SaaS realized a need. We realized a need, which is a a a straightforward, highly secure, false mobile app focused on on chain specifically. Praveen was already working in the Bitcoin space and was looking for what his next project was gonna be. And it kind of worked incredibly well together in terms of Praveen taking taking this project and just shipping, shipping, shipping, and OpenSats providing funding. And then we also had a group, that has been providing feedback, a group of heavy hitters, that are not all OpenSats.
Craig is actually one of them as well, that have been providing feedback along the way. But one of the key things, one of the key things here that I think you really nailed on is not every wallet needs to have Lightning in it. We we I think one of the reasons why Cove fits as such a good role is because it doesn't have Lightning in it. It doesn't have multisig. It's making secure single sig on chain great again. And there's this weird fascination with people that especially in this new era of, leveraged Bitcoin equities, you know, the MSTR playbook, where people do this false dichotomy where it's either you're either doing geographically distributed multisig or you're you're holding Michael Sailor stock on MSTR.
But you could actually do very secure single sig in a very straightforward, easy to do way, that unlocks a ton of freedom benefits that only Bitcoin can provide. And I feel like Cove really fits that role well. One of the things that you've been very proud of, is that you've natively written this app, and that's why it's only on iOS right now. You kinda have to build out Android separately. You're not using something, like React. You wanna go into a little bit why you chose to do that and what kind of benefits users see?
[00:15:40] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So this is a kind of a case study for me as well as just the way I built it because, I haven't seen many people do it exactly this way because, right now, basically, two ends of the spectrum of building mobile apps would be on one end, like React or another framework that's JavaScript or dot Flutter, Dart, a different language, that is not fully native. That's it's not like the the languages that the platform is used to. But the advantages, you can build it once and basically run it in two different places. I've made apps like that. And the other other end is basically you do the entire app twice. Right? Once for iOS with Swift or Objective c and then again for Android, using Kotlin or Java, whatever. And then so completely opposite spectrums, the building it twice would basically take twice as long.
I've taken a slightly different approach. So what I'm doing is I'm building the core of the app in Rust. Rust is widely used in Bitcoin now. BDK is is written in Rust, so that's it makes it easier to use, BDK directly in Rust. So I'm doing as much of the logic in Rust as possible, but I still do all of the views. So what you see on the screen, the components, the little widgets, everything basically that is drawn to the screen is written right now in SwiftUI. So the native, the native language. The reason for that is, basically, you get you you look at the app and it looks fully native. There's no it looks like an app that belongs on iOS, and it's gonna be very fast as well. Right? So much faster than using, JavaScript.
And I know a lot of people don't like JavaScript for the security security stuff as well. So, you know, avoid a whole class of issues there, while saying very fast and basically looking native. But the advantages since most of it is, written in Rust, what I'm betting on is that when I do make the Android app, it will it won't take twice as long. It'll take, maybe 20% of the time or 30% of the time. Right? Just to I just I do have to rewrite some stuff because I have to rewrite the the views, what it looks like in in Kotlin, but everything else, the functionality will be the same. There'll be less testing because the functionality itself is tested. Right? So the small surface area of rewriting and I I'm I'm a whole I'm hoping and I'm thinking that it will, be a really good trade off.
Obviously, like, not every app needs to be done this way. Like, I think React Native makes sense for a lot of apps, but for a security focus Bitcoin, app that, like, like, really trying to nail the UX, I think, writing the stuff you see, the view code in their native platform makes a lot of sense.
[00:18:31] ODELL:
Awesome. And, I mean, just one symptom of that, is how small the app is. I,
[00:18:38] Praveen Perera:
go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very proud of that. Because I I mean, I didn't try to make it small or anything. I just that wasn't I I put it up and I noticed it's, what was that? I think it was less than 20 megabytes. Yeah. It was 19 megs. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of, these clock cross platform apps that are written once, they can get huge. Right? 100 megabytes, 200, 300, which I mean and in my tweet, I said not a lot of people care about the size of the bundle size. And I I think it's true. But but for some, it matters. But, also, like, you know, if you're on a a crappy Internet connection, maybe not in the first world, that stuff matters. Right? It'll be it'll be, much faster to download, quick. It it loads up really quick. Right? So, you might not care about the bundle size, but, like, what that means, I think everybody will care about.
[00:19:30] ODELL:
Snappy. Nice to use. It's a cool flex and a cool metric. The first off, Mav 21 in the live chat, Zap does 10,000 sets. Thank you, Mav. Damien x RVN x, Zap 21,000 sets. Thank you, sir. Thank you guys for supporting the show. I see a comment from be involved, about a user connecting their own node. This is you know, I I know you don't like the comparison. Another similarity to Sparrow, in that you default to public well known Electrum servers. My app at least defaulted to blockstream.info, but I see mempool DIY nodes in there as well, and then give users the option in settings to change to their own node or any other node they want to connect to. How do you think about that? Yeah. So this was an important feature for me because, again, I think of myself as the first, user of Cove.
[00:20:31] Praveen Perera:
And, if I'm using Cove, if I'm using a wallet, I don't want to connect to a public node. So I, like, before it launched, that was, like, a must have to be able to connect to your own node. So have that. You're able to connect to your local Umbrel or whatever. But I also realized that not everybody runs nodes. And as an app that's trying to be, you know, user friendly, the the default that makes sense is to connect to a public node. Right? But if I I don't wanna have to force people to learn about nodes and running your own nodes and all that just to start using the app. But if you know, you know you know what a node is and you run your own node, I try to make it easy to find. Right? So it's just in settings, the first like, it's one of the first layers is, like, nodes or node connect, something like that. And, you can easily connect to your nodes. And, I do wanna make that process of connecting to nodes easier. I don't know why a lot of people don't do this, but, you know, you can you can check to see if, like, there's some well known nodes that a lot of people run, like, Umbrel, start nine, and they're usually on the same place in your network. So we can we can check and add that to a list automatically so you don't have to, type it in. So there's stuff we can make, do to make it easier, but at least having the ability to connect to your own node was a important feature for me. And Cove doesn't support Tor yet. Right?
No. Cove doesn't support Tor. Again, I'm not a big fan of Tor, so that's why I haven't supported it yet. Mostly because it's slow, and I think it degrades the user experience. But I do recognize that people that people like it and want to use it. So we will Well, the biggest issue is,
[00:22:09] ODELL:
for people that are running these home nodes, like, if they're running a start nine, most of them are connecting through a tour to get back. I know start nine wants to do it's been in the pipeline for a while, and they wanna have a proxy clear net service. But right now, the status quo is people are basically pasting in a Tor electrum string.
[00:22:30] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what I've done with, I had an Umbrel. What I did with Umbrel was run tail tailscale? Yeah. Tailscale. So you can run that on yours and then connect. I find that to be much faster than Tor. That's another thing I wanna work on. Basically, like a proxy you can run on your own nodes so you can connect without Tor directly. Yeah. So as as a general group of features, I think connecting to nodes is like some ideas I have. I've worked with the guy work working on Kyoto, which is, compact block filters. So I don't know how familiar everybody is, but, basically, it's a more privacy preserving way of, getting your transactions without having to connect to your own node.
So that's definitely like a there's, like, groups of features and stuff that I wanna work on, and that's definitely one of them. Just easier easier connecting
[00:23:23] ODELL:
to more private nodes, I guess. Yeah. I, I mean, look, I love this trade off balance. I think, obviously, if you're not using your own node, you're trusting someone else's node, and you're trusting you're trusting that node with privacy. You're trusting, them to enforce the rules of the network and also validate your transactions, actually authenticate your balances. So it's strictly best to run your own node. It's the only way to interact with the Bitcoin network in a trust minimized way, without a third party involved. But a lot of people won't, especially in the beginning. And if they won't, then I I think the best way is rather than Praveen running a specific code server and being a vertically integrated single point of failure, it's defaulting to high uptime, highly reputable public servers, rather than I mean, this is probably foreign for a lot of people, but, Electrum, for instance, will just pick a random Electrum server. And there's a lot of public Electrum servers that are believed to be run by chain surveillance companies and other bad actors.
So you don't wanna give, like, a complete random public node connection, but having, like, this curated list of high high uptime, high reputable ones, seems like a very reasonable trade off balance to me.
[00:24:56] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. And I took my list from, Sparrow as well. Yeah.
[00:25:01] ODELL:
I I also like in Sparrow, like, he just really scares the shit out of you if you're using one of his curated public node list. I like that you don't scare users, because I think, you know, they're it is strictly better if they use a their own node, but they're not gonna lose funds over it. It's not I it's not something that I wanna really scare users with right in the beginning. I guess I wanna jump in a little bit deeper. But before we do that, I realized that we didn't really do the high level. I think the high level would be very useful for people. Okay. So someone someone buys a cold card.
They install Cove on their phone. What's the setup process?
[00:25:48] Praveen Perera:
So we do have videos of this, but, basically, let's assume it's a q one because it's very QR native, QR native QR code native. Anyway, if we buy a q one, it's a works really, really well with Cove. Basically, you set it up, set up the PIN. Actually, small aside, I think, NVK was talking with someone at the Bitkey guys and they're like, oh, you can't set up, a a a cold a cold card in five minutes or whatever. So I think I made a video being like, okay. This is thirty seconds. Right? So, basically, you set up the pin. You go through the cold cold cards, say, export wallet or advance, whatever.
The the place you go to export the xPub. And they have a bunch of formats. I made it so that you could pick any of the formats. So whatever they pick, it'll work. Pick a format, say generic JSON, and then generate the QR code. And then on Cove, there's a one button for QR codes. You can just hit the QR button and scan the scan the code, and that's it. Now you have, you have that the XPub for that in on Cove. And, if you already have transactions on there, you'll see them. You can create the receive addresses and, yeah, start using it. And then high level, sending, very similar. You on Cove, you start the transaction.
You get to a screen that says, export signature. It'll show you a QR. You scan that QR with your cold card, and then cold card will give you another QR. You scan that with Cove, and that's it.
[00:27:30] ODELL:
Yeah. It's super simple. You've done such a good job with the onboarding flow. Yeah. You're literally just generating you're just generating the keys, the wallet on on whatever hardware wallet you're using, and then you're scanning the QR code on Cove, and then you manage the wallet on Cove. You approve transactions on the hardware wallet. And because it's PSVT standard, it works with pretty much the same way with every other QR code based hardware wallet, whether that's a seed signer or a passport or whatever you're using. Really just really clean straightforward. I think I mean, it it it makes self custody secure offline cold storage self custody just so much more accessible.
[00:28:14] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. The one caveat right now is, we for the QR codes, we use we support the BB QR standard, which, Coldcard uses, Crux uses, and I don't I'm not sure. I think a few other people use. But there are some devices that uses slightly more complex standard called UR. We don't support that yet, so I need to that'll be one of the things, one of the things we add. But for those, you'd have to use, like, files, basically. So it's not as smooth, but any but if you can get the PSPT on the phone, you can use it, but we need to support the So then you're just copying and pasting the
[00:28:51] ODELL:
the text string instead.
[00:28:53] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Basically. Or or, I mean, you can use files as well. So if you like, we connect to iCloud. If you wanna put the PSVT on there, you can, import it. Got it.
[00:29:02] ODELL:
Fair enough. And then so you also support NFC. How does that work? Is that I haven't tested that out yet. Yeah. NFC.
[00:29:11] Praveen Perera:
So I I have Coldcard is what I use, so it's what I tested it most with. But same thing. Whenever you're, like you can import the wallet using NFC, instead of QR or and you can sign transactions using NFC. You know, similar process instead of but instead of using QR codes, you're using NFC and scanning it.
[00:29:34] ODELL:
Got it. So it's just a it's you're just tapping. It's the same process. You're just tapping. Yeah. Exactly. Awesome. And then, obviously, with Cove, you can also just make infinite hot wallets if you don't wanna use a hardware wallet. And that just uses seeds. You can just write down your seed, stamp them and steal or whatever. You're good to go. Yeah.
[00:29:56] Praveen Perera:
So the idea is someone that, you know, does if if you have your Bitcoin on an exchange, you probably don't have a hardware wallet yet. So really wanted to take the graduated approach of you can move your Bitcoin off exchange into Cove hot wallet. And then once you're ready, buy a hardware wallet and make that whole process seamless.
[00:30:16] ODELL:
Awesome. Okay. So let's talk about you built on BDK. What was that process like? What are your thoughts on that project?
[00:30:23] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So for people not familiar with BDK, it basically handles all the Bitcoin transaction, a lot of the, basically, the hard cryptography and all that stuff, related to actually sending, receiving, dealing with Bitcoin, just interacting with the Bitcoin network. It's written in Rust, so I was able to very easily use it in mine. But even if you're not building with Rust, they do have bindings for other languages. It was very nice to use, and this team was super responsive, took a lot of feedback. Like, I was I was kinda keeping them updated on what it was like using it, and they made some changes, documentation changes, other changes, from my feedback. And, yeah, they've just been really great to work with. Without BDK, I I mean, I did this in a it took about a year. I wouldn't have been able to do that. There was, like, way too much stuff to do. Right? I was really because of BDK, I was really able to focus on the UX and the design of, Cove, and and they and, basically, they focused on all the hard stuff, the security stuff, which is great.
[00:31:33] ODELL:
That's awesome. Okay. So, I mean, I think a lot of listeners are wondering when Android are you gonna put it on desktop too? What are your thoughts?
[00:31:43] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So my next two, like, immediate things I wanna work on is supporting the York, standard, like I was saying. So more hardware wallets would it'll be easier to use with more hardware wallets. And the other thing is Android support. So, this was launched in June. I took a little bit of a break for June and vacation and just, like, you know, worked on it for a while. So June has been kind of bug fixes and reporting to, responding to support, that kind of stuff. But I I will be applying for OpenStats again. And the first two things those would be the first two things.
The Android app, I am I budgeted basically three months to it. That's including testing and stuff, but I'm hoping it can be a little bit faster. Hoping in, like, one to two months, I'll have a beta ready for people to try out on Android. So keep a lookout for that, and, you know, feedback is always appreciated.
[00:32:44] ODELL:
Awesome. I mean, well so and what do you think that the broader QR code support will be sooner than that?
[00:32:54] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. That'll should be, like, a couple weeks maybe. Okay. Because I it's it's just, it is a more complex I think I start I tried to add it at first, and then I worked on it for a couple hours, and it was complex, and I thought I had a lot more other stuff to work on. But, it's yeah. It's just supporting that standard. It shouldn't be too big of an issue.
[00:33:16] ODELL:
I mean, that'd be awesome because, I mean, the ideal situation and, obviously, I was, I was blind to that because I've used it with a cold card as well. Yeah. But the the less caveats you have to give when you recommend something to someone. Yeah. The better. Like, if I if I could just be like, install Cove, use whatever hardware wallet you want. Also, not have to ask them if they're iPhone or Android. Yep. Right? Yep. It just it obviously makes everything.
[00:33:46] Praveen Perera:
Well, I I mean, there's some hardware wallets that don't support PSBTs. Right? Or, like Well, there's those are just there. Yeah. They should get a better hardware wallet. Yeah. That's true. I mean, if anybody so, CoinKite sent me, their stuff, so I was able to test with it. So foundation, anybody else using UR standards and that actually use PSPTs, feel free to send me a hardware wallet so I can test with it. That'll be helpful for me. And I'll make a video of it working and put it on the Cove Twitter.
[00:34:18] ODELL:
Good shout. What other what other things do you wanna add to this? We've discussed previously privately paid join, silent payments. How are you thinking about those things?
[00:34:32] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So one of the buckets I wanna work on is, improved privacy for sure. So that would include PayJoin. It'd be great to have more wallets and exchanges that support PayJoin. Silent payments, I'm a little iffy on just because you need Taproot. And I don't support Taproot right now, but, I don't see why we won't be able to send to silent payment addresses. And then another one would be better, like, multi wallet support. Right now, you you can have multiple wallets, but they're kinda completely separate. Right? We don't have we don't have a, like, okay. This is how many Bitcoin is in all the wallets, and we don't have an easy way to send from one wall to another. You just have to copy the addresses. I think it'd be cool to just, you know, on the send screen, be, like, sent to wallet a from wallet b.
That would be nice. I'm just looking at my list of stuff. I think we can it I think it's pretty beginner friendly, but I think we can make it even better. I think I I wanna make a better onboarding experience. Right now when you open it, it just basically it's two buttons that says, where is your Bitcoin? Or, like, where do you wanna store your Bitcoin? On a hardware wallet or on a, on your phone? I was talking to someone that has Bitcoin on an exchange, and to him, that was too confusing as well. Right? It was like, I don't know. You tell me where I wanna keep it. So I think we're gonna have an onboarding flow. So for the feedback, it's going backwards a bit. It's been really good to have a mix of, like, you and VK, people that are very technical and, like, very comfortable, but also people that are really new. So, and and self described retards like plate. So he he he he's given me really good feedback. For like, for example, one of the things I I think it was, I had a button that said new wallet, and he didn't like that because he was scared. That means if that if he's pressed it, it would delete the current wallet. So I changed it to add wallet. Right? So feedback like that. Fair.
And the other thing and the other guy has been Adrian, who's my designer. He's very new to Bitcoin. Right? So he has really good questions that, like, that I'm like that you don't think about because, like, you've been in you've been doing this for a while. It's like Right. It's, like, super basic. So, yeah. So so this this the onboarding ideas from that. Basically, it's gonna be like, how where are you in your Bitcoin journey? It'll be like, where's your Bitcoin right now? Exchange, hardware, whatever. So if it's exchange, it'll go through, like, a really super simplified flow, and it will there will be some education aspects to it. I think that's something we need for, like, new Bitcoiners on the app. Just like, what is a hardware wallet? Why would I wanna use a hardware wallet? What is a hot wallet? What are the trade offs? Like, stuff like that. I think we could do a better job.
I I I also just kinda wanna add those, like, little question mark buttons to most of the buttons, like NFC. What if they, You know? Yeah. What is a PSPT? That kind of I think we can make it a lot better for new users. Because right now, I think the new users we get are people, referred by people like you or other Bitcoin. Right. Or like that that Me holding someone's hand and adding them to Cove. Exactly. So I I think it's great for that level, like people that already have a preamble of what this is, how to use it. But there more work needs to be done for someone that just goes to the App Store and searches Bitcoin and finds it. I think I think more work need basically, the app needs to be the Odell a little bit more. Like, need to hold their hand a bit more for the people that don't have an Odell.
[00:38:20] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean and, also, I'm sick of holding people's hands. Like, I just want to tell them to download something. Yeah. And then just let them it should you shouldn't have to watch, you know, a two hour tutorial video, to securely hold Bitcoin. The the the app should be a well designed app should be able to handle that process. And and it like, we we should we should be at the point where, you know, that that's what we've been missing in a big way, and there's different ways to accomplish that. And you have, like, the extreme with something like a Bitkey. But the trade off is it's like trying to find that trade off balance and and trying to find the the balance between and this probably will be the single biggest difficulty for you, is finding the balance between providing an easy, non overwhelming experience for the newbies versus just a wallet that a power user can rely on.
[00:39:29] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I I can already see that creeping in, especially because, obviously, a lot of the feedback I'm getting right now is from, like, experienced Bitcoiners. So, I mean, like, as an example and so, basically, the hard part is gonna be adding these advanced features without making it complicated for the users. I think I'm gonna need some kind of, like, advanced mode where you need to do something weird to enable it, and then it'll, let you do more stuff. I don't want it to be accessible to people that will, that where it will confuse them.
[00:40:06] ODELL:
I mean, you can just have, like, in the settings menu, like, an advanced toggle or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's what that's what I'm thinking. I'm curious on your opinion. You say you mentioned, concerns over solid payments and Taproot specifically. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper on that on, like, how you're thinking about that. And just before we do with the caveat that I actually don't think of this as a power user feature. I think of this as a new user feature, and that's partially coming from my seven years volunteering for HRF training activists.
And so if you're an activist, if you're an activist in Venezuela and you wanna receive Bitcoin donations, in a secure way, the the best if the the way the way to do it to to make sure you get the most donations possible is literally just paste a reused address. Like, we saw Navalny's foundation was just using a single reused on chain address for years, and Putin wasn't able to take their money. Now Putin and everyone else were able to see their full transaction history and how much money they had raised. And, eventually, at some point, Putin, pressured Binance, and Binance handed over all the information of Binance users that donated, to Navalny, and he was opposition candidate. So a bunch of them faced persecution, jail time, and whatnot for sending a $50 donation or a $100 donation.
So that's obviously not ideal. Now their organization has switched since switched to BTC pay server, but I don't think that's, like, a scalable, straight I love the BTC pay project, but it's like running and hosting a BTC pay server is not really the ideal recommendation in terms of user friction and user onboarding. Like, the ideal situation to me, whether that's silent payments or something else, is some like, this has been the holy grail that we just haven't been able to unlock, is being able to just take a static string that's not a reused address, and just, like, post it to Twitter, post it to Nasr, post it on TikTok, and just receive donations. Do you understand where I'm coming from that? Yeah. No. I understand. And
[00:42:29] Praveen Perera:
I definitely think the privacy features like that are important. But, so in the audience, Johnny said we have enough advanced wallet software. We need a wallet for the wife. And I think that's something I wanna keep in mind, and I I think that applies here.
[00:42:45] ODELL:
But your your wife is gonna reuse addresses is what's gonna happen. Yeah. But realistically,
[00:42:50] Praveen Perera:
like, of of the let's say, of let's if a 100 people are using, Cove, how many of those people are accepting donations and in a visceral environment. Right? It's not it's not that I'm saying it's not important. It's just I think there's other things that need to be done first. Right? So if I had all the other things to be done so it it's it's coming and it's important. It's just not the first number one concern right now.
[00:43:21] ODELL:
Yeah. I don't even know if silent payments is the answer to that, to be clear. Yeah. Because it does have trade offs, and it's hard to implement cleanly.
[00:43:30] Praveen Perera:
And the and the other thing, with the Taproot support is just, one way I know to make a good UX app in general is to be the main customer of it. Right? So if I'm if I'm an actual user of the app, I don't need to guess what is good, what people need. There's a lot less guesswork. I know I know what it needs because I need it. Right? I don't use Taproot right now. I don't think old card supports Taproot. I could be wrong. I'm not a Taproot user, so it's just harder for me to create a Taproot wallet because I've I'm fully hardware only. So if I can't use it with my hardware wallet, I'm not sure how I would use it. Right? Again, it's not a deal breaker. It's just more work needs to be done. And, if, CoinGecko point. Yeah. If CoinGecko guys support, Taproot, I think I'll be more inclined to add support as well because then I can use it with my reward wallet. Right?
[00:44:33] ODELL:
I didn't even consider that. That's a that's a really good point. I Yeah. Coldcard only supports Taproot and their edge firmware, not their main firmware.
[00:44:49] Praveen Perera:
Yep. Yep.
[00:44:51] ODELL:
But, yeah, I do like that you're not asking, do you want legacy? Do you want wrap Segwit? Do you want native Segwit? You just default to native Segwit. To To the people that are confused, that's the beast the addresses that start with b c one.
[00:45:06] Praveen Perera:
And I that makes sense to me. Yeah. The less the less questions we have to ask the user, the better. But we don't wanna leave people in the dark. So what we do in the background is when you import a wallet that could be either of them, we actually scan, like, a hundred and hundred or 150 addresses for the other two, like, native sorry. Legacy addresses and the the three addresses. And if we find one, then we'll ask the user the question. Right? So we wanna keep that kind of, question minimizing ideas going forward, basically.
[00:45:42] ODELL:
So the another thing on new user versus power user front, a topic, I mean, look. I think this is gonna be the most rage inducing bull market that we've ever seen. I think most people are not gonna be happy. I've already seen the early signs of it. It's like Bitcoin is just fighting. We're, like, we're almost at a 110,000. We're basically at all time highs, and Bitcoin is just fighting about everything. And I I think that trend is gonna continue and accelerate. And not only will bit Bitcoiners be fighting over fighting with each other about the, quote, unquote, right way to use Bitcoin, but, obviously, the Bitcoin deniers, the people that hate Bitcoin are gonna be furious as well. So, like, literally, everyone's gonna be angry, or most people are gonna be angry. But one of the arguments lately has been, the difficulty of using seed words.
So on that front, obviously, right now, Cove just uses the straight seed standard. So you can if you create a hot wallet in Cove and, obviously, this only refers to the hot wallet because if you're using it with with cold storage, it's with the hardware wallet, it's just whatever the hardware wallet uses, which they all are using seeds. But on the hot wallet front, it uses, the seed seed word standard. How do you think about that in terms of backups and cloud and whatnot?
[00:47:09] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So, first of all, I think the fighting is good. I think if it's, it's good for Bitcoin. If we all get too agreeable and, you know, agree with everybody, I don't think that's good. I think the fighting is good. I welcome adversarial feedback as well. You know, tell me why Cove sucks. I think that that can be more helpful, if not as helpful, if not more helpful than, like, the the really good nice comments which I've received, which I appreciate. But, yeah, seed words. I love seed words. To me, Bitcoin is not Bitcoin without seed words because, you know, that that's what makes this offer to me. I I'm not saying there aren't trade offs, but, to me, Bitcoin represents a return to an era of personal responsibility.
Right? In gold, you're personally responsible for custodying, protecting your wealth. Right? And I think there's a lot of things that come downstream of that. Right? So I think that's where Bitcoin fixes this comes from. Right? It's not Bitcoin doesn't magically fix stuff. It fixes things because the way it is. Right? So you can't have an era of personal responsibility without personal responsibility. Right? So if you want Bitcoin, if you want the world Bitcoin brings, unfortunately, that means you're going to need to do some things different. You can't just you can't just go give it to a bank and, hey, you deal with it for me. That's not how it's gonna work. Right? So I I'm I'm in Bitcoin as for the for the new world, it's gonna bring as much as it is to get rich. You know? Don't get me wrong. I love, number go up, but I really do I am a firm believer in Bitcoin fixes this. And I think a large part of why it fixes this is because, of the personal responsibility that it takes to keep your wealth. So, yeah, I love seed words. To me, Bitcoin is seed words.
But I do believe that we could do things to I don't think people need to learn everything all at once. Right? So if someone's on a hot wallet, they are at the beginning of their journey. They have more to go. I think we should make c words easier to use, more secure. I love vault volts because of this. So, you know, I I think that would be a good soft fork,
[00:49:37] ODELL:
to have all You're not gonna get it. Yeah.
[00:49:40] Praveen Perera:
I I don't know. I don't know. I'm not in too much fighting about this, but I think it'd be great, because that lets you seed words but whilst, being safer. Right? To me, that's a better trade off. That's a better yeah. That's just that's just better than, like, getting rid of seed words. So with all that being said, I think some of the things I wanna bring to the Hot Wallet side is definitely a cloud backup. I was looking at the Phoenix, wallet, and the way they do it is great. Yeah. I like how Phoenix does it. Yeah. I I do think I wanna add because right now, basically, the their hot wallet, back cloud backup backs up to iCloud.
So they have noticed about, basically, the NSA and Apple collaborate. You know, they can steal your money, which is true, which is probably not a concern for someone already on a hot wallet. So I think it's a great trade off. I'm gonna make the same trade off. But I think I also wanna make, still make it a little bit more secure for the people that want it so you can add a PIN. Yeah. PIN or password or something like that. I think the way I think about security with offline and passwords and stuff like that is I think people are very against, like, password managers or, like, saving your seed word in, in a password manager, which I think makes a lot of sense. But I think you can combine it. Right? So save, have an encrypted backup in the cloud, but have the password to that backup in one password. Right? So now it's in two different places, two different companies, one password, whatever. If you believe then, they should, everything should be intent encrypted. It shouldn't be hackable. Right?
But basically, to rug you, it would be a lot of work. Right? Just in case it is hackable,
[00:51:28] ODELL:
you they would they would need them to collude and you would have to you have to have access to both the Google Drive account, the iCloud account,
[00:51:36] Praveen Perera:
or the whatever wherever your password manager is. Yeah. Exactly. Two different things. I I think, I think that's a great trade off. So so, yeah, I want I wanna do the Phoenix Way where, basically, you don't need anything as as when you download the app, on a new phone, it'll already be there because, iCloud, like, key chain password is already synced between devices. But I also want the step up, basically, encrypted backup and then here's your PIN or pick a PIN or password, save that somewhere. That does add complexity because then you need to let them know, hey. Like, without this PIN, without this password You're gonna lose your money. Yeah. So maybe I'll do something like, signal where they ask for your PIN every now and then. So like, to make sure you still have it. Like that. Yeah. So I and then I could verify that that PIN works without decrypting it. So right. So you there's lots of stuff you could do.
It's it's gonna be hard to find that balance, man, of, like, advanced versus easy. But, and the another thing I wanna do is, social recovery. I don't that might be a little later because I think it'll be more involved. You gotta figure out how to talk to people, which like, how do you do you do everything through Cove? Is there, like, a do you, you know, go through signal or whatever? But I think it would be another nice to have kind of feature. Yeah. Social recovery, you know, two or three, three or five, something like that.
[00:53:00] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, for social recovery, you could effectively keep a secret in the user's cloud account and then just have them, like, delegate one user that has another secret. I mean, I I would that would be, like, the most simple implementation of social recovery. And the use case I would think of is, like, I onboard my mom, and I'm her recovery, but I can't take her money.
[00:53:25] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So she would need yes. Yeah. So that would be a use case for the password. Basically, you give the password to someone, but you I have the password. Yeah. Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have the password. She has the encrypted backup in her iCloud and boom. Done. Yeah. I mean, I will say that
[00:53:42] ODELL:
I come from a time before seed words, and kids these days don't understand how easy they have it. Seeds are amazing. I mean, the number the number one thing you wanna be able to do with a backup is, first of all, be able to load it into another wallet just in case your wallet provider is unavailable, you know, whether that project becomes obsolete or you can't their servers go down, you can't access the app or whatever. You wanna be able to load it into another wallet. So seeds are beautiful that they're interoperable. And second of all, the single best security advice you can give to someone is to keep backups offline and never put it on the Internet. And why do we do that? That why do we keep backups offline? Why do we keep keys offline? It's because you threat modeling wise, you take out a whole set of threat actors. Actors. Anyone who would remotely try and compromise you and hack you through the Internet can't do that because the the secret is offline, and they have to actually come into your house or come into your office or whatever to get that secret.
And seed words are obviously words, so you can write those down. Like, trying to write out bare private keys is fucking insane. When I first started, I would print out my private keys and then destroy the printer, which is ridiculous. Like, the users aren't gonna do that. So seed words are great for that reason, but it is a paradigm shift for people that are not used to taking personal responsibility. And most people I have noticed, or a lot of people I've noticed, they're used to just, like, they lose their iPhone in a airport or something, and they do the iCloud recovery on their new iPhone, and most of their apps are there. And one of the two big things that they forget is a lot of times, there's a two factor apps because it's, like, a similar threat model. And then the second thing is the Bitcoin model. It's been three years or whatever, and they just assume the Bitcoin model is gonna be back there, which is why I think what Phoenix did is is quite clever, and their disclosures are really important because that basically I mean, look. For most people, Apple Apple and the US government aren't in their threat model. I think they're not actually concerned about those two parties stealing their money.
But Phoenix has a little bit more leeway, I think, because it's more geared as, like, a spending wallet. It's more of the cash you keep in your back pocket. And so, like, if you have, like, a thousand dollars in it and the NSA or Apple wanna steal your money, it's like, okay. They stole your money. Like, I I it's it's not it's not as big issue as if it's your life savings.
[00:56:23] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. And, similarly, I think in Cove, if you're on a hot wallet, you maybe we should add more more, like, wording around that. But, like, you know, if if you if you're keeping a real amount of money, you really should just get a hardware wallet. So I think that,
[00:56:44] ODELL:
the The hard part is it's hard to quantify what that is for the end user because there's no one size fits all. Like, I've heard people say, like, oh, like, you know, you need multisig if you're storing more than 250,000, and, like, you're better off in MSTR. Like, someone literally said that to me on Nasr. If you're not multi if you have over $250,000 and you're not using multisig, sig, you're better off in MSTR. And I, quite frankly, would rather have $250,000 in my Hot Wallet on Cove than in MSTR. Like, I think the trust model is better. But it just depend it depends on the user and what their threat model is, and that makes all of this way more if you if you wanna be honest about the trade offs, it makes that education onboarding experience. And there's there's no such thing as one size fits all advice. I think the the key is that, we're honest about the trade offs.
We make that clear to users and let them choose what works best for them.
[00:57:51] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And, yeah. Multi yeah. Multi stick is funny. I mean, it it's it's it's great, but not nothing is bulletproof. Right? In an era of personal responsibility, the only thing that will protect you is gonna be yourself. So figure out how to defend you, your home, and your family because people I think some people assume that, like, you know, you get broken into and because multistig is is great, at, like, physical attacks. Right? But they assume that someone's gonna break in and, like, they're like, oh, sorry. I got this amazing multisig setup. Like, you can't get it. What what they're just gonna leave? They're just gonna leave you alone? You know? They might not get your Bitcoin, but they might also not leave you alive. So Yeah. Really, like, Bitcoiners should really, you know, get used to getting good at defending themselves and their home and their property because
[00:58:41] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think that is obviously a key part. Like, don't be a soft target. But I also like, it just depends who you are as a user. Right? Like, if you're if you're a public Bitcoiner, then, yes, like, you probably should be using geographically distributed multisig. You should probably not be able if you have a gun to your head, you should probably not be able to move those funds. If you're running an organization, then the CEO shouldn't be able to rug everybody. Like, that should be in multisig. Like, it'd be absolutely insane if OpenSats treasury was in single sig, and it'd be even more insane if it was in single sig hot hot wallet. Right? Like, that should be multisig, and it should be cold, and it should be distributed among people. So there's no single point of failure.
Absolutely. But it is interesting. I I think for the overwhelming majority of people, single sig cold storage is is more than enough, particularly if very few people know you're a Bitcoiner. And I I do think we're entering the era that people like, everyone has something to sell you. So they so, like, the rent attacks, for instance, have, I think, been overstated because we're entering an era that because Bitcoin exists, it's not just Bitcoiners that will be targeted more. I I think all rich people will be expected to pay Bitcoin ransoms. Like, that's not, there's a reason why billionaires pay $510,000,000 a year for security teams, and it's not because they're necessarily Bitcoiners.
It's because they're high value targets, and as a result, they need to account for that in their threat model. And so there's nuance to all these things. Yeah. These are the trade offs you get when you move into
[01:00:26] Praveen Perera:
an era where you can actually custody your wealth, I think. Like Exactly. That that's just, yeah. Yeah. And I don't love the collaborative custody model for privacy and other reasons for sure.
[01:00:39] ODELL:
Why don't you love the because it just for the privacy reasons because they know your amounts? Yeah. Yeah. I don't love that.
[01:00:47] Praveen Perera:
But, I mean, I understand why people use it. I'm not gonna go too hard on that. But, I don't know. The I think the FrostSnap guys just released their hard wall rear wallet. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah. I have it.
[01:01:02] ODELL:
Do I have it right here? I just had it in my hand, but I have a testing unit. Yeah. Pretty bullish on frost. I like that stuff.
[01:01:11] Praveen Perera:
I think, you know, it works around a lot of the multi sig pain points, I think. Excited to see where that goes.
[01:01:26] ODELL:
I I have, like, just a desk full of testing devices over here. But, yeah, the the cool thing about the FrostSnap is, like, it's like human centipede. Yeah. It's just it's just you connect them butt to butt, with the USB C to set up the multisig. I mean, I think collaborative custody is is, first of all, great for institutions, like organizations. And I think of it more as, like, a stepping stone for, like, full full blown personal responsibility self custody. Like, people I think it's the single most important thing with the collaborative custody stuff is the handhold. Like, whether you're using Unchained, AnchorWatch, Casa, it's like you have a customer support person that is explaining to you what seeds are, helping you set up the hardware wallets, getting you comfortable, and helping you in inheritance and disaster recovery.
Yeah. And people just like the handhold. Yeah. But but, obviously, it comes with a with a privacy concern.
[01:02:35] Praveen Perera:
And I think, BTC sessions and them, they had a new company that's basically hand hold as a service. Right? I think it's called Bitcoin Mentor. I think they Yeah. They do that. You yeah. You know, if if the free hand holding gets too much for you, just send them there.
[01:02:51] ODELL:
Fair enough.
[01:02:53] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But I I think what I was gonna say is, yeah, I'm I'm definitely I love I'm definitely okay with any of these, like, step stepping stone type of services that get you to a better place. But what the that's why I don't like the BitKeeper, though, because I don't think that's a stepping stone. I think if it was marketed as such, hey. Like, this is your first Bitcoin wallet, and then later when you figure out what everything means, you can get to a better place. I think if they marketed like that, it would be better. But as it is right now, that's not how they talk about it. This is your first final and only Bitcoin wallet, and I don't love that.
[01:03:32] ODELL:
Fair enough. I mean, I think the messaging could be better. But let's go through the same thought experiment I used earlier. Regular individual wants to invest $200,000 into Bitcoin. Are they better off in MSTR, or are they better off with the big key?
[01:03:50] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Definitely big key. So, I mean yeah. That makes sense. And I think what, last time I was talking with, Ben, and I think he was just basically saying that nobody wants to buy a hardware wallet knowing that they'll have to buy another one in the future. So I I guess that explains the messaging. But and but, I mean, you don't have to shit all overseas. You know? Like, just I know. The seedless stuff is Yeah. Seedless is safer is just
[01:04:17] ODELL:
a just a just a really bad messaging. Yeah. Focus on using because I don't I mean, I don't think seedless is safer, but it depends on your it depends on your technical competence and threat model. For some people, it might be. Yeah. I've had I've had friends that call me in a panic because they wrote down their seeds wrong or Yep. Or they've lost them, and their ledger is, like, one pin away from wiping itself, and they're, like, freaking out. Okay. Well, this all sounds awesome. I mean, like, I'm really excited. I see a comment on the YouTube chat.
By the way, Freaks, I've been, like, shitting all over YouTube for years now, and I also include nostrilinks in the show notes on YouTube. And I used to include copyrighted music in dispatches. So as a result, I'm pretty sure I'm heavily heavily shadowbanned on YouTube. But I'm just gonna keep streaming there because I know a lot of people like using it on their TV or whatever. The app ecosystem for YouTube is just bar none great. But if you do still use YouTube, if you're one of the billions of people that still use YouTube and you're not subscribed to the CIL dispatch channel, if you could go and click subscribe there, maybe get me out of purgatory, that would that would be appreciated. But someone in the YouTube chat, AquaLife, asked when will you support more than cold card? And Praveen answered this earlier. He thinks in the next couple of weeks, he's gonna open up the QR code capability.
And right now, he's he's just supporting what is it? BB QR, which is I get which is cold card crux. And did you say someone else supports I'm not I'm not sure who else.
[01:06:05] Praveen Perera:
I I mean, it's the standard. I know those two for sure. And, the crux guys also tested, COVID with their stuff, so I know it works. I mean, technically, like Seed Signer, Foundation, Jade, whatever, they can all work. You just have to use files. So it's it can work. It's just not Or NFC. Great. Or NFC. Yeah. If But I don't think those support NFC. Yeah. But But, again, if any of them wanna send me the hardware devices so I can test, I will and, make a video, and then I'll know for sure if it works or not.
[01:06:37] ODELL:
Yeah. I, and just out there, like, BBQR is, an open an open spec. It's open source, and anyone can implement it. And the advantages of it is that it's a much more compact QR spec,
[01:06:55] Praveen Perera:
so it's easier to scan. Right? Yeah. It's much more compact, easier to scan. But also on the developer side, it's so easy to support. I I did it in, like, couple hours. It's easy. I start tried doing the UR, standard and then it was just confusing. I worked on a few few hours. There's, like, deprecated ones. There's, like, I I think a lot of them are in UR two point o and I was, I guess, trying to do one point o. It was a mess. I I don't like it. I wish everybody just used b b q r, but I guess that's not the reality. So I have to support the other ones as well.
[01:07:27] ODELL:
Awesome. Okay. Well, I'm really excited about Cove. Thank you for building it. The I'm kinda curious. So, I mean, this is a weird I don't know how long you've been a Bitcoiner, but this is a bit of a weird cycle. We're we're in a a weird timeline. I think we're in the best timeline for Bitcoin, but it's a weird timeline. How are you thinking about the overall industry where we're at right now? How do you think about it as a Bitcoiner?
[01:07:58] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Hold on. Before we get to that, I wanna run can I run some ideas by you for Cove? Get some live feedback? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. So we were talking about, connecting to wallets. What do you think sorry. Connecting to nodes. What do you think about the idea of, have for people running their own nodes have, like, a helper thing that they can run on their node in a box or on their computer, where you can and then Cove could connect directly to that, and then you can access it from anywhere. Like a Cove companion app on start nine?
[01:08:33] ODELL:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. Alright. Ack. Okay. Ack.
[01:08:39] Praveen Perera:
The other one is I'm not sure why most people more this hasn't been done. One of the things I always I was testing Cove with the, like, low entropy wallet just like because there's there's transactions that I can look at and stuff. So abandoned, abandoned, abandoned, like, 24 times. While I was testing that, I know so there's a bunch of, like, transactions that people have swiped. Right? So I noticed, like, 2,000,000 sat transaction coming through. I'm thinking of a feature called bad entropy detector. Basically, you make a, a database of, like, just you can make it as big as you want, but you can start with, like, you know, the thousand most lowest entropy wallets that are known. Right? So you can start with and, like, I know a lot of people have or some people have lost money with the doing the the dice rolls on cold card wrong, like, only doing a few I think they they made it harder.
But, basically, you make a little database, and if you try to import one of those, like, known wallets, you either say no altogether or, like, big warning saying, like, if you put any money in here, it will be taken.
[01:09:44] ODELL:
Yeah. I mean, I think if it's if it's relatively low lift, like, that would be great to have. Okay. Cool. And the reason I say relatively low lift because I think it's mostly edge cases. Like, I don't think that will be that common.
[01:09:59] Praveen Perera:
Well, yeah. I mean, that's hard to say because I I think I think there's, like, you know, people losing money this way every every week. Because, like, if you look at some of these wallets to use, like, they're it it happen it it happens quite a bit. Like, I've seen people talk about it on Twitter. Someone I know was, like, testing out a wallet or, like, the dice rolls, and I think they lost, like, a $100. I think I was talking to Dee. I think they get support questions about that. So yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe more research on, like, how common it is or but I I think I you could start, like I think you let them import it, but you just
[01:10:36] ODELL:
scare the shit out of them. Yeah.
[01:10:38] Praveen Perera:
Sounds good. I'm just looking through my list to see if I want any live feedback from you in the audience. Talked about c. How important is an address viewer? Basically, like a list of previously used addresses and, the next 25 addresses. And right now, you get, like, one address at a time, but, like, how important do you think it is to see previous addresses and stuff like that?
[01:11:06] ODELL:
Maybe put that in the advanced menu or something. I there there is something maybe not advanced. There's there's something about new users where they think if they receive a payment to an old address, they won't get it. I don't know if that's the best way to handle that, though. I mean, obviously, I'm I'm kinda thinking about what Sparo does They show the full list of addresses when you click in. I will say on an organization level, it's a feature I use all the time, because we're doing multiple transact like, OpenSats, for instance, we're doing multiple transactions. Like, I constantly need to verify addresses and go into the history.
But does the average user use that? I don't know.
[01:12:00] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So maybe lower on the list.
[01:12:02] ODELL:
Yeah. Especially since Cove is not multisig. So, like, it's there's never a situation where I'd be using it for something like Open Sats Yeah. On the payout side. On that note, though, like, it'd be interesting, to know when an address has been reused in the main wallet screen.
[01:12:24] Praveen Perera:
So if you get, like, a transaction into an address that was already used,
[01:12:29] ODELL:
like, like, a little indicator saying, like Yeah. Maybe, like, a little yeah. Like or, like, a little red exclamation point or something.
[01:12:36] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I can see that scaring new users, but, again, maybe in a like, an advanced advanced Well, we see that with dust attacks. I mean, you said you wanted more privacy stuff.
[01:12:47] ODELL:
You know, I I'll send someone will send you $10 to an address that you already used, hoping that you'll combine it with a future output.
[01:12:56] Praveen Perera:
Yes. And and on that note, I think one thing I haven't added yet is the ability to lock UTXO. So, that's coming soon as well. And that'll work with the label. So it should, transfer over with Sparrow. Okay. Last last question about features. How important do you think a desktop app is? Because, yeah. Here's my thinking behind this. If someone prefers using desktop, I think it'd be nice to have a really nice, well designed, modern looking UI. But the other thing is if you're using desktop, will they just use Sparrow instead? So should I focus just on mobile? It's not a huge lift because, like, it's just kinda changing the screens to work better with the added real estate. But, yeah, what do you think about that?
[01:13:47] ODELL:
I like desktop because of the thing we talked about earlier when if you're just recommending a wallet, you don't have to ask what platform. Right. It's the same reason why like, I I think just all things equal, multi platform multi platform apps are just the best because I don't have to ask if they're desktop, Android, or iPhone. I just say install primal.
[01:14:13] Praveen Perera:
Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that was all my all my questions. Do you have any feature requests for Cove you wanna make or the audience? I don't know. Freaks, do you have any I I see pseudo Carlos
[01:14:25] ODELL:
said to not show all the addresses. You're just gonna scare people.
[01:14:33] Praveen Perera:
Okay. I think that's fair. It is probably pretty I mean, maybe that's an advanced menu thing. Yeah. Maybe it's something you can just you can enable, but it starts off disabled. Yeah. Makes sense to me.
[01:14:45] ODELL:
Freaks, if you have any future requests, either put them in a live chat or you can tag Perveen on x or Noster. I have I'm gonna put I'll put all the links to those to to his socials in in the show notes.
[01:15:05] Praveen Perera:
Alright. So what was your question again?
[01:15:09] ODELL:
State of Bitcoin. How you how you think about Bitcoin right now? Are you bullish? Are you bearish? Industry tools? Yeah. I understand.
[01:15:19] Praveen Perera:
Officially or, like, overall, I think I'm pretty bullish. I feel like as I've been working on Cove, I've been paying attention to price and Bitcoin a lot less. I've just been very focused on Cove. Definitely bullish. I think the MSTR stuff is interesting. I'm not gonna buy it, but I'm not a super purist on it. Like, I I guess it's bringing more people into Bitcoin that might not have been in it. I guess the question will be, are they going to eventually, transition into self custody? And I think yes. And I'm not I don't think, like, paper Bitcoin is a is a big concern, to be honest.
So I think overall
[01:16:09] ODELL:
Why don't you think paper Bitcoin is a concern?
[01:16:12] Praveen Perera:
I just think if you could paper over Bitcoin as you could with gold, then Bitcoin wouldn't be Bitcoin. Right? The reason Bitcoin is Bitcoin is because it's hard to do. Because everybody acting, in their own self interest makes, and the fact that anybody can custody it, I think, makes it really hard for one someone to paper over it because it affects everybody. So if some Yeah. If the market thinks that's happening, they'll, you know, they'll act on it. Yeah. I think self interest. My thesis is that short term, you can. Yeah. Short term. And
[01:16:47] ODELL:
people might get wrecked through individual things or whatever. And, you know, it's not just MSTR now. There's, you know, a a ton of, like, penny stocks that are, like, converting into, quote, unquote, Bitcoin treasury companies. And some of them may commit fraud and people lose their money. Yeah. But in terms of as an overall network, I think anyone who plays paper Bitcoin games will eventually specifically, if they're, like, effectively net short Bitcoin and are trying to suppress the price, they'll just get blown the fuck up. At at some point, they will blow up, because people will just keep buying Bitcoin, taking self custody, and the supply will get scarcer and scarcer until they blow up. And that's kinda what we saw with BlockFi and FTX and Celsius.
[01:17:32] Praveen Perera:
Exactly. And I think that's long term bullish. So,
[01:17:36] ODELL:
yeah. I think I think the bigger issue, though, the bigger issue is to your point with Bitkey. If you're you have issues with Bitkey's messaging and the lack of flow to move to a more secure setup, like, someone buying MSTR in their brokerage account is so far away from self custodying Bitcoin. Like, I don't know what that flow is, particularly, if if MSTR keeps outperforming Bitcoin too because they have a financial incentive to give up that personal responsibility, give up the self custody for the better gains. Yeah.
[01:18:13] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but what I'm thinking is 10 x fixes everything. Basically, you know, you buy MSDR,
[01:18:19] ODELL:
Bitcoin 10 x is now you get nervous. Like, I've heard about all this. Have to take you'd have to take a 20% in America, you'd have to take a 20% hit on taxes to do that transaction, though.
[01:18:30] Praveen Perera:
Oh, yeah. I guess it's realized. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, the thing is that a lot of people that I know that are Bitcoiners that are buying MSTR, are buying it in tax advantaged, accounts. So I'm not super familiar with The US stuff right now, but in The U Canada, there's CFSA's and RRSPs and stuff where where you wouldn't be you wouldn't you wouldn't take a hit. But then, I mean, you might not wanna take it out anyway. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. You don't take a hit as long as you keep it there in the tax advantage account, but you would take a hit if you tried to bring it into self custody anyway. And that's Yeah. I mean, look. I don't think
[01:19:06] ODELL:
I don't think it's, like, an attack on Bitcoin. I don't I don't think, like, it I think if you if you if you net net everything out, like, MSTR is just end sale is, like, clearly a net benefit for Bitcoin Yeah. As a whole. The cons and the concern is more for individuals. And at the end of the day, I'm also not paternalistic. Like, part of a movement of personal responsibility is that if people wanna get Bitcoin exposure, quote, unquote, use Bitcoin in different ways, like, that like, that's their prerogative. They can do whatever they want. But I do think I do think it's an interesting dichotomy where people will be very hardcore about the risks of sixty one zero two attacks and go very deep in on one side of the Bitcoin community and go very deep on, you need to have multisig. Sig, you need to have this, you need to have privacy, you need to have all these other things. And then, like, 99% of the new money is just opening up Charles Schwab and Yeah. Buying, buying a Bitcoin stock. Yeah. I mean, maybe you think it's,
[01:20:17] Praveen Perera:
hypocritical that I kinda went harder on Vicky than I did on MSTR. And I I guess I understand that, but at the same time, MSTR is not pretending to be self custody. Right?
[01:20:28] ODELL:
It's like I
[01:20:32] Praveen Perera:
guess. It's it's it's not. It's pretending it's it's, you know, you get Bitcoin exposure. That's it's Well, no. You get you get better than Bitcoin exposure is the marketing.
[01:20:42] ODELL:
They will outperform Bitcoin.
[01:20:45] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. But they they with MSTR, you're buying NGU. You're not buying all the other stuff. Right? So I think it I think, personally, it makes sense. I I don't think it's super hypocritical to go go at, Vicky because they are pretending and they are being self custody. Again, like,
[01:21:08] ODELL:
I I think your points made sense. I'm just not a fan of the, you know, the the shit. Well, look, look, I'm not just I'm not just picking up Vicky. Like, the latest thing that people are fighting about, is while the Satoshi added Spark wallets Spark SDK support, which is,
[01:21:26] Praveen Perera:
you know What is that?
[01:21:29] ODELL:
It's so it's, it's a state chain, right, which is similar to Mercury layer. I don't know if you're familiar with Mercury layer, but it's one of those things that, like, sits in between so, basically, LightSpark took Mercury layer state chain implementation, and then they which is open source, and they modified it a bit to take out the privacy benefits, and that's what Spark is. And the way it's set up is if if the operator of the state chain and this is my understanding is this is because there's been no soft fork, but, presumably, we could have a soft fork that makes the trust model better. But as it currently stands, the operator of the state chain can't take your money unless they're actively being malicious, because it it involves swaps. So you need the person you're swapping with, would need to collude with the operator to take your money. But, of course, there's a situation as well where the operator could be the person you're swapping with, and you don't even know.
So it, like, sits in between self custody and custodial. Mhmm. I would put liquid in, like, a kind of another similar basket where, I think, technically, you can't you shouldn't be able you shouldn't call that self custody, because there's trust in the federation. Yeah. But it's strictly better than a single seg custodian, like a traditional custodial model. But, anyway, and then on one side, you have these companies that don't wanna be regulated like custodians. Right? So LightSpark and Wallet and Satoshi don't wanna do KYC, don't wanna be regulated as custodians. So they're never gonna say the quiet part out loud. And then you have the hardcore technical people that are like, this is not self custody. You can't call this self custody.
And they'll never gonna agree with each other because they're both arguing from different perspectives. One's trying to play regulatory arbitrage because Tron gets away with pretending that they're self custody even though you can't self custody on Tron because Justin Sun just owns the whole thing. And so they're arguing from different levels. And then meanwhile, 99% of the money is going into MSTR. And that's that's the part of this cycle that's weird to me. Like, that's the like, I love I love that Bitcoin's an adversarial environment, but it's just a weird dichotomy from, like, the realest like, if if someone uses Bitcoin for the first time on Walletist Associates powered by Spark SDK, that's a win. To me, that's a massive win. Like, we've just won another person using Bitcoin and transacting in Bitcoin rather than buying a stock.
So that's how I think about it. Does that makes any sense?
[01:24:09] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. I mean, if you think about custody and soft custody is how many people does it take to rug you? Yes. If Spark only takes one person to rug you, how is that better than MSTI? I feel like you need way more people to rug you. Like, you know, there's regulators. There's all these, like you know, the government might need to get involved. Well, no. I mean, m s MSTR,
[01:24:31] ODELL:
you're trusting first of all, you're trusting the government. It's like it's like one executive order away from a sixty one zero two at, like, any point. Yeah. So you're so you're trusting the government. Rug. Yeah. And you're trusting three corporations. You're trusting your brokerage account. You're trusting Sailor and MSTR, and then you're trusting his custodian.
[01:24:53] Praveen Perera:
Okay. So you Any of those three could rug you? Yeah. Okay. So there's multiple parties, and any one of them could rug you Individually. Individually where you just park you one party, and they would need to rug. I guess I I guess that's better, but, like, how am I gonna do that? It's about three three counterparty is better. At at at that point, why not just use liquid then? Like, isn't, it wouldn't liquid what's the liquid app that does lightning, like, Mun or Moon? What's that one again? Well, no. So Moon does on chain swaps. Yeah. No. I mean, the one that does it Aqua. Aqua. Right? So why not Aqua over, Spark then? It takes you would need more people to rug you on Aqua. Because,
[01:25:38] ODELL:
yeah, you would need more people because I I think the active federation of Liquid is like a sixteen sixteen entity multisig. So Liquid has a strictly better trust model from that point of view, because the swaps have, heavy fee burden at small amounts. So Yeah. So with Spark with Spark, you could your first Bitcoin receipt could be a 100 sats. You can't you can't do that with liquid swaps because there's this cost. There's to there there's there's fee cost there.
[01:26:14] Praveen Perera:
Well, I was listening to I think it was on settled dispatch with Evan, and they were he was talking about using, e cash first and then going to Lightning.
[01:26:26] ODELL:
I like that flow. Yeah. I mean, you could do the same thing with Spark. You could Yeah. You could effectively like, once you hit a 100,000 sats or something in a Spark wallet, you could graduate them too. Yeah.
[01:26:39] Praveen Perera:
Well, I mean, I'm not super familiar with Spark, but maybe I'm missing something. But if you think about self custody versus custodial as how many people it takes to rug you, I don't see how Spark is any different than Mint or eCash because, like, it's one party who needs to rug you. Right? If anything, eCash, you could make the argument better because because you can split your money among many Mints. And then to rug a 100%, you would need more than one person to rug you.
[01:27:10] ODELL:
Yeah. I I think I think the difference is the key difference is it's really hard for a cashew mint operator to legally argue in court that they're not custodial. They're clearly custodial. And I think LightSpark is I think they received, like, a $165,000,000 from a 16 z, and we'll have a decent case in court that there's they're gonna try and fight if they have to, they will fight this in court that they're self custody and that they don't have to do KYC. And that's what I'm saying. That's the and so if you're a wallet provider, and I love Cashew, but if you're a wallet provider like Zeus, I asked Evan this, and Evan was like, which mint do the users choose, especially if they're a new user. Right? And how do you guide them to pick the right mint? And the wallet providers don't want to do that. They don't wanna have the liability of be like, use MiniBits.
Use this Mint. So they kinda just throw the user out to the to the sharks, and they're like, pick your own Mint. Maybe they have a NASDAQ recommendation system or something. But if you're the guy who's running well to Satoshi and the quote, unquote Mint or the provider can just be a 16 z backed LightSpark, and you can just put your users there, I can see how you that would be a more comfortable decision to sleep at night than just throw them out there and be like, pick your mint on your own. Yeah. That makes sense.
[01:28:38] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Yeah. But, do you know if well, does Satoshi guides them to, like, a LSB or something when they have more more,
[01:28:46] ODELL:
It doesn't right now. No. I have the beta. But I wouldn't be surprised if they move to some kind of I mean, I think you could also what might be cleaner for an end user is screw the LSP model. Just when they hit a 100,000 sides, bring them on chain.
[01:29:05] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But then, I mean, as as fees go up, and then what if you wanna
[01:29:09] ODELL:
spend a 100,000? Well, I have a live view of the mempool right now.
[01:29:13] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. But, I mean, it's not gonna be one forever. Right? I mean, I don't think so.
[01:29:17] ODELL:
Well, let's juice those numbers, and then we can then we can make the then we can make the operations more efficient. But I don't know. I just there's something to be said about the beauty of on chain. And I I as long as people can afford the fees on chain, like, maybe the threshold isn't a 100,000 sats. What a 100,000 sats right now is a $100.
[01:29:38] Praveen Perera:
Yeah.
[01:29:39] ODELL:
I don't think David Marcus is probably not gonna wanna go to jail for stealing a $100 from you. So maybe a 100,000 isn't the right number. Maybe it's five 100,000 sets, and then you just graduate them on chain. And then you can just skip Lightning channels, which are also gonna have an on chain fee. Yeah. And you just skip Lightning channels, and you do all Lightning sends and receives in the I think someone called it a trustodial model in the in the
[01:30:08] Praveen Perera:
middle model. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why I'm complaining. I'm, for when it comes to lightning, I basically just use primal right now. I'm, like, full on custodial. It's straight up custodial with k y with, like, KYC, but KYC nonetheless. Yeah. Exactly. But I'm maybe just just don't call it self custodial because I think while, while it is What they was, marketing it as self custodial, but I guess
[01:30:31] ODELL:
for legal reasons. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. If you say it's custodial and you're not doing KYC, then Yeah. Okay. That's a good point. They're never gonna admit they're never gonna admit it out loud. Okay. Okay. Okay. I get it. There's a reason why Justin's son always says Tron is self custody.
[01:30:48] Praveen Perera:
Yeah.
[01:30:49] ODELL:
Right? Because it's he doesn't wanna go to the gulag.
[01:30:52] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. I get it. Yeah. I mean, definitely, right now, lightning as much as, like, the technical people say, the best way to use it the only nice way to use it is with some sort of custodial model Or Phoenix. In my opinion. Ever yeah. I've heard Phoenix is good.
[01:31:12] ODELL:
I But is Phoenix I think I think there's you could make a tactical argument that Phoenix is custodial too. Custodial too. If if by your definition, if it only takes one party to rug. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the best definition of custodial because, like, that ultimately, that's what matters. Right? Like, how many people does it take?
[01:31:32] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. It does with my Bitcoin on chain in a cold card, it doesn't matter how many people collude. You cannot rug me. Right? Yep. That's the one one spectrum, and the other one is, let's say, cash and mint. Just one unknown person can rug you. Yeah.
[01:31:46] ODELL:
I know. I think that's a good definition. I see Johnny's asking if my suite UI is available, mempool. I think it's mempool.space slash clock is the yeah, mempool dot space slash clock is the background I use for dispatch. Soap miner zapped 10,000 sats. Thank you, Soap Miner, for supporting the show. Soap miner has some of the best homemade soap, and he accepts Bitcoin. It's the only soap my family uses. Dami x RV and x is asking, what percentage of users will use custodial services or or self custody in ten years? Praveen.
[01:32:38] Praveen Perera:
Oh, man. That's so hard. I have no idea what the next ten years is gonna look like. In ten years, What percentage? I have oh, what percentage of Bitcoin users? Okay. Let's say 5%.
[01:32:55] ODELL:
Customer I think that's it. I mean, self custodial. Yeah. I think I think if you did it in terms of Bitcoin amount, it'd be significantly higher. It'd be like 70% or something. But in terms of number of users, like individuals, it's probably closer to 5%. And, like, our single goal should be to try and increase that number that percentage.
[01:33:23] Praveen Perera:
Oh, that's pretty bullish, though. If you can get 70% of amount Bitcoin amount in custo self custody,
[01:33:30] ODELL:
that's that's good. Right? That's, I mean, I think that's kinda where we're at right now. Yeah.
[01:33:35] Praveen Perera:
Yeah. So it's just not many people. Yeah. So what are we also worried about then? It's all good. No. Not everybody can use the main chain anyway.
[01:33:43] ODELL:
Well, awesome. Praveen, this is great. Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap here?
[01:33:54] Praveen Perera:
No. Thanks for having me on. It's been fun.
[01:33:58] ODELL:
When you release Android, you'll come back on?
[01:34:01] Praveen Perera:
Yep. Sounds good. And before I do, I will put out a beta. So anybody listening that's really Android's been number one requested thing, so help me test it.
[01:34:11] ODELL:
Awesome. And, yeah, any if you are testing the iOS app, give them your feedback. All feedback is helpful.
[01:34:17] Praveen Perera:
Yes.
[01:34:18] ODELL:
Freaks, I
[01:34:21] Praveen Perera:
have a great skip. Yep. Go on. Sorry. One more thing. If you are using, the iOS app right now and you like it, please leave a review. I think that helps, move up in the search rankings on Apple when someone searches for it, which should be very helpful.
[01:34:37] ODELL:
Yeah. Definitely leave a review right now if you search Bitcoin wallet. It's, the top wallet is Trust Wallet by Binance and then a bunch of other horrible, horrible wallets. So every review helps. And while you're there, you know, like and subscribe to Cielo Dispatch in your favorite podcast app. Freaks, I have a great lineup set up for us. July 7. So what is that? I think that's Monday. Yeah. Monday, I have Jeff and Max coming on. They're doing white noise, which is basically signal, but on Noster, so secure messaging on Noster. Then July 11, I have a conversation about webs of trust using Nasr.
July 14, an AI chat with Matt Alberg of PPQ AI, Ben Kaufman of Keeper Wallet, Cali from Cashew. Gleason's gonna come back. But, yeah, we got a great lineup, and then Praveen's gonna ship Android, and then he's gonna come back. Praveen, thanks again for joining. Thanks again for building building Cove, and, we'll talk soon. Talk soon. Good one. Awesome. Stay on those tax hats, freaks. Peace.
Jack Mallers Intro
Happy Bitcoin Wednesday
Cove Wallet Features and Goals
Technical Aspects of Cove Wallet
Future Plans for Cove Wallet
Node Connectivity and Privacy Features
Cove Wallet and Hardware Wallet Integration
Onboarding and User Experience
Seed Words and Alternative Backups
Collaborative Custody and Security
Future Features and Feedback for Cove Wallet
Bitcoin Industry and Market Thoughts
Custodial vs Self-Custodial Solutions
Closing Remarks and Future Plans
