Citadel Dispatch

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Stephen Pollock is the SVP of Development at the Bitcoin Policy Institute. BPI is the leading bitcoin focused think tank in the United States. We discuss the current regulatory environment, status of the Samourai Wallet case, and the strong success so far shaping bitcoin policy in America.

Disclosure: I am a founding board member of BPI.

Stephen on X: https://x.com/spollockbtc
Bitcoin Policy Institute: https://btcpolicy.org
BPI Summit: https://btcpolicysummit.org
P2P Rights Fund: https://p2prights.org

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(00:04:33) Bitcoin Policy Institute Overview

(00:06:12) Guest Introduction: Stephen Pollock

(00:09:20) Bitcoin for America Event Recap

(00:12:16) Bitbonds and Strategic Bitcoin Reserve

(00:16:43) Bitcoin Policy Institute's Mission and Impact

(00:21:18) Congressional Fellowship Program

(00:26:04) Stephen Pollock's Journey to Bitcoin Policy Institute

(00:34:36) P2P Rights Fund and Samourai Developer Case

(00:50:15) Bitcoin's Political Influence and Grassroots Support

(01:09:44) Upcoming Bitcoin Policy Summit

(01:26:22) Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:00:01] Unknown:

The innovations   and the vision   and the excitement   and the knowledge base   is in this room. There's so much to share with other people,   so we can work together,   to make this happen.  

[00:00:21] Unknown:

The strategic reserve represents a stockpile of the most valuable   asset,   but it also represents   digital property. It represents a a digital asset that will generate rent that can be developed, that can be financed over time. Right? It's worth anywhere from 3,000,000,000,000   to a hundred and 6,000,000,000,000 depending upon how programmatic and aggressive we want to pursue this opportunity.   These opportunities don't come along often.   This is the once in a century opportunity.  

[00:00:56] Unknown:

Bitcoin is like digital gold. It is a store of value, and it's easy to transport.   It doesn't have devaluation,   and so this is why it should be bipartisan, and it is something that, will help empower people economically. And a lot of the next generation   have used it as a the best use of storage.  

[00:01:18] Unknown:

And so this is now a serious policy objective that the administration intends to pursue. I don't think this is a flash in the pan, and this is just the beginning. We have, you know,   almost four more years of a Trump administration   where Bitcoin policy, I think, will be among the top items on the agenda. And I view the Bitcoin strategic reserve as a pivotal moment  

[00:01:37] Unknown:

when contrasted   to the last century of economic policy to come out of our nation's capital. Bit bonds are a win win win.  

[00:01:46] Unknown:

We're looking at dramatically lower   interest rates in the form of savings, $554,000,000,000.  

[00:01:53] Unknown:

And Bitcoin mining can shut down their facilities,   their operations in minutes, and then ramp them back up, all driven by signals from the power grid.  

[00:02:03] Unknown:

I think the story of the past few years is Bitcoin going from a niche interest into a respectable global macro asset. The announcement of strategic reserve that the, you know, executive branch of the United States is going to say that Bitcoin has value, value that's different than other digital assets, and has value that is worthy of putting into a strategic reserve for the long term betterment of the country.  

[00:02:26] Unknown:

The story of humanity is engineering a better world, and I think America is the best example of that. So I view Bitcoin in line with the American story and,   the next evolution of humans engineering a better world.  

[00:02:39] Unknown:

Stablecoins   can be   the killer app on top of a network that it's open, decentralized,   can reach where the dollar cannot,   and can really complement   US values and principle anywhere in the world. When you think about the ethos of America,  

[00:02:55] Unknown:

what are the set of ideals that bind together this great country?   In the idea that no matter who you are or where your parents came from, you can achieve the maximum of your potential without any government or dicta standing in your way.   We as human beings need symbols to reground ourselves in that ethos, and I think Bitcoin can be one of those symbols.  

[00:03:15] Unknown:

Bitcoin Policy Institute   has become a thought leader. BPI has assembled the great thought leaders in America   about digital assets and their significance in the future.   The team in the White House that wants to help make America   the great leader in digital asset.   BPI is their present,   helping   make that agenda   a reality.  

[00:04:33] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here   for another Cielo Dispatch.   The interactive live show focused on actionable   Bitcoin and FreedomTech   discussion.   That intro clip   was, to pump us up. It was a pump up video,   put out by   the gentleman at Bitcoin Policy Institute,   about their last event that they had last month. We'll be talking about their larger event that is coming up next month shortly.   But before I get there,   I just wanna thank everyone for supporting the show.   Cielo Dispatch has no ads or sponsors. We are supported   by viewers like you supporting the show   with Bitcoin donations.  

You can do that twofold. You can   zap the show when it's live. Our Nostril livestream is always available at silldispatch.com/stream.   All links in general are at silldispatch.com,   or you can zap through your favorite podcasting two point o app in your podcast feeds.   Fountain Podcasts   seems to be the leader in that space, so you can just download Fountain Podcasts, follow your favorite podcast, comment, zap, support.   Our largest zap from last week's rip on fountain was a thousand sets from   Martin   Baralik.   And he said, listening to you while cooking lunch for the family, the vibe I've got at the end from the music was priceless onward.  

Cheers to that. That was a bugle banger that we ended last week with. But, anyway, guys,   I have, I've done a couple shows about Bitcoin Policy Institute. As some of you might be aware, I'm one of the founding board members   of, the organization.   But I brought on a new guest, a fresh face   that most people do not know. I believe this is his podcast, Virginity.   We have Steven Pollock here,   as the the VP of development   at Bitcoin Policy Institute. He's in charge with   helping make sure that funding   much needed funding comes into the org. How's it going, Steven?  

[00:06:47] Stephen Pollock:

It's going well, man. How are you?  

[00:06:50] ODELL:

It's going great. Am I correct that this is your amen.   Am I correct that this is your first time on a podcast?  

[00:06:59] Stephen Pollock:

You know, I,   I think I did one,   with CK. I think CK got me, like,   three years ago,   but it's been a drought since. I guess I I did so well   that,   nobody has had me on in two or three years.  

[00:07:17] ODELL:

What show was that? CK's done a bunch.  

[00:07:20] Stephen Pollock:

It was the,   it was the Bitcoin mag, you know, podcast he used to do.  

[00:07:26] ODELL:

Yeah.   Very descriptive.  

[00:07:29] Stephen Pollock:

I don't know. I don't remember which one it was. It was a long time ago.  

[00:07:33] ODELL:

Well, hopefully, this one will be good enough that you'll actually remember doing it.   And thank you for joining us.  

[00:07:40] Stephen Pollock:

I'm sure it'll be very memorable.   Yeah, man. Anytime. Thanks for having me on, and excited to, rip as the kids say these days.  

[00:07:50] ODELL:

So,   I queued it up. It was a surprise to you. You didn't know that I was using,   the BPI pump up video to start her off. And you let me know right before we started   recording,   right before we went live, that you actually produced this video.  

[00:08:07] Stephen Pollock:

I did. Yeah. I did. I I didn't film it, but I produced it.   And,   we,   you know yeah, man. We're proud of that thing. We're proud of the event, and   so excited for everybody to check it out. Thanks for showing it. We just got that done a couple weeks ago.  

[00:08:24] ODELL:

What does that mean that you produced it?  

[00:08:27] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. It's basically,   you hire the people who filmed it.   And,   and then you're you kinda tell, you know, how you want it to turn out, and you, you know, you order,   you know, you kinda say, oh, I need to got here. Let's make sure and feature these speakers. Here's kind of the flow,   you know, of how you want the video to go. And so you take all the credit,   and don't do most of the work. And it's kind of the main I did the interviews,   at least some of them.   I did most of the interviews in planning for the shoot, but,   but we hire some guys I know from back home that are really strong,   videographers, and and they did a great job on it.  



[00:09:11] ODELL:

Love it. Without   me, Matt.   Yeah. You're the instrumental you're the instrumental piece.   I mean, so we started over the video. I mean, I think that's the best place to start because I was there in DC for that event. I mean, it it blew me away. It was it's kind of one of those moments,   you know, when you you look around, you see all the suits, you know, like, holy shit, what timeline are we in?   That will stick with me for a while. But you wanna just talk a little bit about what that event was, what takeaways you got from it,   how you guys are thinking about it?  



[00:09:45] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah.   There's a few there's a few things to examine,   with the Bitcoin for America that   and I don't know, you know, what's been shared before, but,   we this wasn't something we, as BPI, were planning to do.   One, we're busy enough as it is, especially in the spring.   And then two, we already have our summit, which is coming up in June, and we'll talk about that later. But this is the third year we're doing the Bitcoin policy summit,   and we kinda do it late spring or early summer.   So we're already planning that, which is to anyone who's done, you know, even small events, you know, how much goes into that.   And we, I guess, got into February.  

You know, there's the whole strategic Bitcoin reserve,   you know, movement,   that was going on,   and we kinda stuck our fingers in the air. The winds were, you know, a little awry, it felt like. And,   there was,   obviously, XRP   and the ripple   goons were,   you know, doing their thing and trying to get involved, and everybody wants to get involved when things are going well.   So, you know, there was this impression   in Washington   that   there was not alignment   from,   most of the community and most of the whether it's lobbyists or, you know, trade groups or whatever you wanna call it, the, you know, sort of the the crew   about what they wanted,   from an executive order or from, you know, from a policy standpoint. And while there's you know, alignment is sort of a, you know, a funny thing like that. I don't think anyone's ever been aligned on anything in the history of Washington, DC,   including, like, what they were gonna put in the constitution, all sorts of things.  

But you use we had some form. Like, I think the what I'm try the point I'm trying to get at is that the message   was that was being circulated was, like, completely wrong.   And   we were sorta like,   man, if some I wish somebody would do something. It sort of, like, brings all the Bitcoiners together, all the CEOs, all the, you know, all the   influential companies,   all the, trusted voices,   and,   sort of concretize   our opinion and say, hey. We are on the same page. We think, you know, Bitcoin is good for America.   And, because of that, we have these various opinions and things that we would like to see enacted.  

And it was kinda one of those   I can't believe nobody's doing that. Like, somebody needs to do something.   And somebody threw out the idea of doing an event,   and we were like, oh, that's ridiculous. We're already planning one.   But, you know, it needed to happen sooner rather than later. So we I think we threw together   days.   The industry,   like,   all the Bitcoiners, all the executives, everybody who spoke.   Obviously, it wouldn't have been cool at all if they had shown up and changed their calendars and rearrange schedule be there for this. And so,   you know, we kinda threw this idea out there, and everyone really aligned with it. And I thought it went I thought it went really well.  

I think one of the cool things, one of the highlights for me was hearing about Bitbonds from Andrew Hones. I know that's kinda went viral since then.   That was, like,   you know, that was really cool to see and and to see,   it being embraced by, like, you know, the DC alley cats and the Bitcoin community both kinda being like, oh, interesting. That's an intriguing idea. I like it when that happens, When we're seeing both sides kind of engage with an idea, it doesn't happen that often. So,   I'll take that as a win.   Yeah. What else?  

What'd you think, man? Like, the suit like, you just kinda felt the, like, oh my god. This is real when you were there. What else struck you about the event?  

[00:13:38] ODELL:

I mean, you saw me. I was I think I was one of three people that weren't wearing suits when I was there.  

[00:13:45] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:13:47] ODELL:

I mean I mean, to   to,   tie on to your,   your earlier comment about taking all the credit, you know, Andrew Hones,   the the man who presented BitBonds, he is the founder of Battery, which ten thirty one is the exclusive investor of.   Naturally. So I'll take a tiny bit of credit,   for getting him very excited about Bitcoin. He's also a ride or die freak. But I I agree. I think,   I think his bit bonds proposal has a lot of natural energy behind it on on both sides, both on the Bitcoin side and on the government side.   You cut off a little bit. I   I think you when did how long did it take to put together? I felt like it was, like, five weeks or six weeks to get the show together.  



[00:14:37] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. It was, like, thirty day.   Am I back now? You hear me alright?  

[00:14:41] ODELL:

Yeah. No. It's just every once in a while, it drops   something. But besides that, we can mostly hear you.   Alright. I don't know if freaks in the comments.   It might just be me. It might just be my side. In the comments, let us know if you can hear them alright.   But it it blew my mind. Like, I remember talking to, David Zell,   one of the cofounders of Bitcoin Policy Institute. And he was like, should we do this thing and and beat beat the shit corners   out the door and, you know, get our event out there. I was like, yeah. Let's do it.   And then, like, a week later, like, planning had begun, and it just, like, fucking happened. So that was pretty fucking cool.  



[00:15:20] Stephen Pollock:

Well, one thing that was really helpful   was that,   we had alignment   with, senator Lummis' team. So   Connor Brown, the senator, her whole team,   I don't know how it all you know, all the behind the scenes stuff worked, but we we cohosted. They were a cohost. And so,   you know, I don't know who came up with the whole damn thing, but,   once we were moving on it,   they were carrying a lot of water too. You know? They and so we couldn't have done it with, you know, without them, obviously,   and that helps   speed. You know, you normally get one of two things. You get speed or you get quality. Right? And so you can do a quick event,   you kinda sacrifice quality,   or you can do a great event and plan for, like, nine months.  

This is the rare exception where we did both, and,   I'll be honest with you. It's one of my if not my favorite Bitcoin event I've ever been to, I think definitely one of the most impactful.   And I'm not just saying that because it was ours. I think I'm saying that because of who showed up, who tuned in, and what happened before, during, and after the event.   Events   are fun. You know? Like, we like doing them,   as, you know, a community.   I don't just like planning events for the sake of it. I plan plenty,   and I don't need another one, but this was,   strategic. You know? And I think that's something   that I really value about   Bitcoin Policy Institute and why I enjoy working on,   events   is because they're they're levers,   they're tools,   and something we think very carefully about,   to get the right people there,   to speak, to get the right people there to listen   and observe   and, to help sort of fundamentally shift even a couple degrees,   opinion on certain matters and perspective.  

I think establishing   some baseline education is important.   But also through those who do have that education, it's important to   to continue to build on it.   I'm not you know, I think it's a   it's a great goal to say, hey. We need like, we don't even have   this is something we can get into later, but we don't even have, like, a kindergartner level   education   when it comes   to elected officials and staffers in Washington, DC,   with regards to Bitcoin.   But just because we achieved that goal doesn't mean job done. Great job. Everybody go home.   As as you've you've seen, like,   if there's anything more dangerous than, like, not knowing anything about something, it's knowing   a little bit and thinking you know everything.  

And so,   you know, we're just, I guess, working ourselves into more work,   but I think it's worth it.  

[00:18:08] ODELL:

Love it. We got Mav twenty one, ride or die freak, proving that zaps are working in the comments. He zapped 10,000 subs,   said, yo. What's good, Mav?   I mean, on that note, one of the cool things you guys announced   during that event was that you guys plan on putting a Bitcoiner in every congressional office.   Do you have any insight on that? I think that's pretty baller.  

[00:18:34] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah.   I don't know about every I mean, I think we definitely could do every office.   So there's   I don't know if we I don't I don't recall that part, Matt. But, yes, we will put the plan is to put,   Bitcoiners in.   It's,   thanks for taking a great idea and and turning it into an impossible one. I appreciate that. Well, we didn't get   we didn't get this far thinking small, Steve. That's true. That's true. We're gonna put 10 in every congressional office is what we're gonna do. Yeah.   So there is a   I did announce   that we're gonna do a congressional fellowship program.  

We're gonna begin putting that into place   over the next year. And so really excited about that. Basically, you're you're,   as a nonprofit in different groups, you can sort of fund staffers,   and, imagine that, private private groups funding the government. It it's unbelievable.   It's magic.   And so you can you can basically put this person in office as a resource   and,   provide that service,   and they obviously work for the office, and and so,   we're facilitating   that. And it's a project we're really excited about. I think, I think it's gonna be really, really cool. We can get some great people in there that are they're excited about working, with congressional offices and staffing that. And a lot of this I'm friends with a lot of staff. I mean, I don't I don't work on the hill,   but, you know, we've got our different different friends in mind just from over the years.  

And,   the ones who work for cool offices, you know, that that get it,   they really enjoy working with Bitcoiners. Like, they they're like, they love it. You know?   Everybody's pretty cool, fun to hang out with,   eager to educate,   and help,   help them be, you know, be good at their jobs.   You know, I think anyone who helps you do your job better,   just out of the kindness of their heart or because they care,   you're going to,   you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna like people. And I think Bitcoiners, whether it's, you know, down in Austin, there's an event going down there, or the big events, the big tentpole like Bitcoin conferences or if you come to one of our summits.   And part of the reason we love Bitcoiners coming to our summit is because,   the unique experience when government officials, elected leaders, policymakers,   staffers rub shoulders with just, like, normal Bitcoiners,   they're always impressed,   one, by, like, how smart everybody is.  

Two, how nice everyone is and how helpful they are and   and kind.   And I'm I'm painting with a broad brush because I'm sure there's some assholes out there.   We probably got two of them on camera right now, but everybody else is pretty nice,   and and fun to fun to hang out with. So,   so, yeah, I think that's   I I know it's ridiculous that that's, like, a surprising,   outcome. But if you see some of the people that they have to put up with,   especially with different, you know, groups,   it's it's refreshing, I think, is the best word. Bitcoiners, I think, are refreshing   to,   to those who have spent a lot of time in in Washington.  

And that's a that's a huge compliment, in my opinion.  

[00:21:54] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, that's not surprising to me. Bitcoiners are the best people. So,   it lines up with my bias.   I, to be clear here,   BPI   facilitates   and places   the Bitcoiners in the congressional offices.   But once they're in once an office takes the person,   then they no longer report to BPI. They're effectively,   staff of that office. Right?  

[00:22:21] Stephen Pollock:

That's right. That's right.   They, yeah, they   they don't report. No. None of the staffers would report to us. We're just facilitating them to be able to,   we're facilitating,   like, a conduit. Hey. We know these Bitcoiners.   Let's put them in and, get them in get them here, and they can they can do it. Yeah. They don't report to they can't legally report to, you know, BPI or anyone else. They report to their boss in in congress.  

[00:22:47] ODELL:

On that note,   how did you get involved with Bitcoin Policy Institute?   What's your story there?  

[00:22:54] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. It's a long story.   We're we're not in a rush, are we?  

[00:22:59] ODELL:

We have all the time in the world. All time in the world.  

[00:23:04] Stephen Pollock:

So I've been at BPI,   I guess, right at three years or just over three years now,   which is wild.   I'll talk about that for a second, and then I'll kinda back up and tell you tell you how that happened. Appreciate you asking.   I, so when I first started BPI,   it was it was, you know, it was small.   And we're still small, but mighty, but, I mean, really small. I think I was the first full time hire at BPI.   And now we're a team of   13   plus,   full time. And so,   you know, kind of backing up,   all the way, I started   I spent about a decade in public affairs, and, you know, you know, most of this,   and you're actually part of the story,   hilariously enough,   a big part. But,   spent, you know, a decade   running campaigns,   working for a lobbying firm, although I wasn't a lobbyist.  

I was, kind of running issue advocacy, issue based campaigns   across the country,   and,   ended up in   Tennessee,   and   lobbied in Nashville for a couple of years as well.   So kinda worked in I mean, you, you know,   you know, throw a rock,   in that,   political arena, and you'll hit five different jobs that I've done.   So I've kinda pretty much run the gamut. Never worked in Capitol Hill, but spent a lot of time in in DC during those ten years. And,   you know,   I I actually got just completely burned out.   It was, you know, it was just a a grind   and learned a lot of things, did some great work, some things I'm really proud of, but it was just, it was it was a brutal   it was brutal.  

And   and so it was really during COVID,   that   most of all those projects shut down.   And I was like, I had some different things I could do,   but I was ready to do something completely different.   It was also around,   you know, toward the tail end of that that I kinda get interested in Bitcoin. I thought Bitcoin, you know, is   yeah. Like everybody,   maybe something a way to make a lot of money really fast.   Actually lost a lot of money really fast. It's kind of how that happens. It's always the first time. But,   but, you know, I stuck with it, and   I remember I don't know if I've told you this story, actually.  

I   kinda got to my finally get to my baseline, like, interest in in Bitcoin and the network and under understood that there was more to learn   than just, like, buying something and selling it.   And I   I didn't know anyone else. I had, I guess, one friend who   who even knew what Bitcoin was.   And,   it was like   a the girl I was dating at the time, also known as my wife now. I don't know why. So that, that way,   my current wife, former girlfriend,   a friend of hers knew some Silicon Valley folks. Blah blah blah. Anyway, I get on the I get on with this guy, and I was just like, yo. Like, I know you know about Bitcoin.   I got Twitter for the first time,   and, back when it was still Twitter.  

We're gonna be saying that for so and, like,   back when it was Twitter,   you know, now it's still pretty fresh, but thirty years from now, we're still gonna be   talking about that as some sort of, like, timeline marker, which is just so ridiculous. But,   yeah, I I was like, hey. I got I got Twitter.   Who should I follow? Like, how can I learn about Bitcoin?   And this guy told me to follow you.   Yeah. He was like you were, like, one of the top one of the first few names out of 10.   And so I was just like, alright. So that's how I followed you on Twitter. I didn't even have Twitter. Actually, that's what it was. He's like, download Twitter and follow Odell. And I don't even know if you know this guy. I I can't remember his name.   Some random dude, but he told me to follow you.  

And   because of that,   I did.   And   now I'm on your show, which is insane.   I've never told you that story. I've saved it all these years, man, for this moment.  

[00:27:26] ODELL:

What a surprise.  

[00:27:28] Stephen Pollock:

I would DM you. I would ask you about   Bitcoin, and we go back and forth. And, you were actually very generous and and patient. Like, you you you were really cool,   back then.   I don't know what happened,   but   we'll go into that later. But, yeah, man, it used to be so nice   on Twitter.   And   as the price goes up, man, just   it gets worse.  

[00:27:57] ODELL:

Fake news.  

[00:27:58] Stephen Pollock:

Fake news. So,   so, yeah, I,   got into Bitcoin. I I started, you know, working at a software company,   and, I'm not a developer, like, not trying to take credit. I just produce the software. I don't actually, write   it. I was I I was in sales did sales and marketing for a for a SaaS company in logistics, which, dude, I'm glad I'm not in that right now, man. Like   like,   trucking and, you know,   you know, LTL   and drayage.   I I have compassion for you guys right now. It's about to get brutal. Straight chaos. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. Brutal.  

But, anyway,   yeah. So did that.   Got out of that. One day, I made out with you.   Well, no. So I I mean, we can go we can go through the whole thing. So I go to my first meetup, my first Bitcoin meetup. Sorry, guys. This is, like, boring, but this is exciting for me. This is, like, so cool.   I gotta I gotta I gotta my my first meetup   or second meetup,   and,   and I'm like,   I'm looking at this guy. I'm like, he looks an awful lot like this, like, cartoon.   And I just walk up. I'm like oh, also, I've obviously, like, wore a dress shirt and, like, a, you know, a jacket because anything any meeting I go to in my life this is more how I am, but, you know, I felt like you gotta put on the costume. You wear a suit. So yeah. I wear a suit.   And so I'm a suit that shows up to a Bitcoin meetup for the first time, and I walk right up to Odell here.  

And I'm like,   are you Odell?   I'm like, are you mad at Odell?   And you're like,   why?   Oh, man. It's to, like, DM you and stuff. Like, can we hang out? Can we, like, get lunch sometime? And you just looked at me like I was an insane person. I didn't know all the rules. You know? I didn't know.   And,   kinda Well, we got lunch.   We got lunch, man. We hung out. We talked about This is at Bitcoin Park.  

[00:30:12] ODELL:

Yep. Bitcoin Park. I mean, to be clear,   you know, like, if that happens to me constantly, that's why I'm I wasn't trying to be rude. It was just, Right.   Time is scarce. Let's cut to the chase.  

[00:30:24] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. Unless you're on the unless you're on the Citadel dispatch. Time's not scarce.  

[00:30:29] ODELL:

Then we we have unlimited time now. They're over one.  

[00:30:33] Stephen Pollock:

And,   and so, yeah, we hung out. I intentionally didn't talk about my, like, decade career in politics because I was like, these guys are not gonna like, they'll only be coming to the meetup, but, like, nobody's gonna wanna hang with me in Bitcoin world if they think I'm, like, you know, working politics.   That was pretty obvious to me.   At least it seemed obvious. I was like, oh, yeah. Like and I'm much more I have much more in common with,   with that than I do, like, you know, what I did for work,   or, like, you know, politicians,   kinda swampy stuff, but I didn't know if everybody would completely understand that. So I was kinda like, I don't really would talk about it. So one day, we're we get launched. We're talking about it. I'm like and I'm pretty sure your exact I can't tell you my background, and I'm pretty sure your exact   quote was,   you gotta be fucking kidding me. Like that. And I was like, great.  

Well, last time I would hang out with these guys, and you're like, no. No. No. Like, you're never gonna believe this. So I've actually been, like, hanging out with these guys that run, like, Bitcoin and policy institute. Have you ever heard of it? And I'm like, no. What's that?   And, it was you and it was CK, and I was talking to you guys a lot about it. And so you was like, hey. Like, talk to these guys. Like, maybe you guys have something in common. Like, like, I don't know anything about this stuff, but you do. So, anyway, I was like, cool. Talk to David and Grant,   about BPI and,   just like, what's up? Like, Bitcoin, cool, policy stuff. Yeah. Like,   I wasn't looking for a job. I had a job. A month later, I quit that job and went to work at BPI.  

And, it's been a   since, like, favorite job I've ever had, by far. So thank you for,   you know, the part you played in that.   I'm really enjoying it, and   and I think that,   I think BPI has I've seen BPI grow up and mature over three years and become   become a powerful,   force in in DC.   And I think that there are far greater things in store,   for the Oregon. So very   humble and and proud to be a part of it,   to be honest.  

[00:32:44] ODELL:

Love it. Yeah. I mean, I,   I still remember the recommendation I gave to David Zell. I was like, you guys should really hire this guy.   He follows me on Twitter, came to the meetup. Seems like a good dude. You have absolutely nothing to lose.   Because it was so early. Bitcoin Policy Institute   was merely a dream at that point. It was so early. There was so much work to be done. But I think the moral of this entire story   is because I helped Steven get into Bitcoin Policy Institute and he produced that video, I could take credit for the pump up video. I think that was basically my work through you Yep. Through the actual people who made it.  

[00:33:23] Stephen Pollock:

You're a you're a you're an executive producer is what that means. They I'm an EP now.   You found me. You produced me.   The video.  

[00:33:37] ODELL:

So we had   one thing that I'm particularly proud of with Bitcoin Policy Institute   is,   the p two p rights fund. So the p two p rights fund   is a,   separate organization   that is underneath Bitcoin Policy Institute.   Bitcoin Policy Institute's head of policies, Zach Shapiro, runs p two p rights fund.   And the whole goal of that fund,   is to support,   legal defense of open source contributors, particularly Bitcoin open source contributors.   And their landmark case right now and the reason it got created in the first place was the samurai developer case,   which is being prosecuted in   New York federal court right now.  

And there was a big,   reveal that happened today.   And you came I know you're not the policy wonk, but you came prepared with a bunch of notes.   I kinda wanna talk about that for a little bit.   What's going on there?  

[00:34:39] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah.   Man, I'm I'm super I'm super kinda   jazzed up, amped up about this because this is,   you know, like you said, I'm not the policy guy, and I'm and I'm not an attorney, but   I don't think you have to understand,   just the level of, like,   ridiculousness   that,   today's release   highlights, man.   So, essentially,   what's happened is,   the   defense counsel for for the samurai developers   has filed a a Brady letter. And,   this Brady letter,   is basically, like,   you know, six months ago or   nine months ago.   I'm trying not to read it. I've got it right here. Six months before the '20 I'll just read it. 2024 samurai indictment. Prosecutors   asked the prosecute so the prosecutors   that are prosecuting these guys right now DOJ.  

DOJ.   They asked Finson   whether Samurais,   noncustodial   wallet, and coin joint software   constituted,   quote, unquote, money transmission.   So   the prosecutors asked Finson,   are these guys   money transmitters?   Finson said,   no. They're not.   So the prosecutor said, got it. Thanks for letting us know.   Waited six months and prosecuted him for being money transmitters.   That's it.   So, yeah, I don't really have to be   exactly.   Pick it all apart,   but you really don't have to be,   you know, an attorney.   I guess you I guess I think there's pretty much everyone understands this except for the prosecutors on the case that,   you know,   the the group that's in charge of making the rules says they're not breaking the rules.  

And then you went and prosecuted them for breaking the damn rules.   It's you know, I think my my, you know,   my toddler could understand that.   But there's so there's sort of two   why this matters. There's, like, there's there's two or three things of why this matters, and it's obvious. Some of you know, it's obvious that prosecutors knew that, you know, they weren't considered money transmitters, and they did it anyway.   So they have,   they have done that. They've regulated by indictment, which we already knew they were doing, but now we know it even more.   And then I think the super shitty thing   is that   they abused,   the Brady process. So   if even   okay. Yeah. They had this conversation.  

Well,   when you're going into trial, you're supposed to sort of release all this to the defense,   early on,   and they didn't.   And so not only   is it like, oh, we're just now finding out about this.   There's a lot of, like,   there's a lot of, like,   costs,   that are associated with it. There's time,   that's been lost   already. There's, like,   like, opportunity cost is what I was trying to say. Opportunity cost with this being delayed.   So there's, like, unlike the federal government,   you know, defense doesn't have unlimited resources to push toward their case. That's part of the reason BPI launched the the the p two p fund.   So,   you know,   they spent all this money   trying to get to this point only to find out, like, oh, we didn't have to focus on that if we would have just known this six months ago, which is obviously   why,   why they didn't want them to.  

But,   and then there's, like,   the opportunities for hearings for dismissal that were Right.   There's,   like, bail consideration. So the you know, I don't know all the but, like, basically, when you first go in for your initial hearing with bail set, the judge is evaluating,   like, how strong cases the government have versus how strong your defenses. They kinda look at all the baseline evidence.   This should have been in there. Think if this was in there,   I think it's reasonable to say,   oh,   so said that they're not doing the thing that you're accusing them of, like, six months before you,   you know, accuse them of it and start this whole damn thing? Like, maybe we set bail a little differently.  

Maybe   the they, they could have the option to just, like, get their case dismissed outright right then.   But no. But no.   I think it's,   I think it's a, an egregious miscarriage of justice.   I think it shows   the worst   parts   of,   our criminal justice system, just like   put up in the sky with a bat signal.   And   I think it's,   I mean, I think it's disgusting. And so   I would encourage everyone   who's listening or listens to I honestly, pick up the phone and call your congressman   and just tell them. Be like, have you seen this?   Have you seen what the DOJ   did?  

Ignored guidance from Finson and prosecuted these guys anyways for no damn reason.   There's, like, hard evidence   in this,   document that's like, no. This is the conversation that happened. These are the emails that were sent. They said, no. They're not really doing it. The prosecutors emailed each other and were like, yeah. Vincent said it's like, a game of telephone where I tell you something and you tell somebody else something and there gets some miscommunication.   You can't have a telephone you can't make the telephone game excuse if it's two people talking on the phone,   And then you repeat back to them what they said, even worse if it's email.  

And, we have that evidence. And so, you know, I just think it's,   I think it's it's just,   it's sort of just an unbelievable.   I mean, it's it's sort of unbelievable. It's unspeakable. This whole damn thing is a mess, and the the case should be thrown out immediately.   And these guys should be released and, should never have no problem again. I mean, it just that's the most common sense solution. I don't see how that doesn't happen,   but I do see how that doesn't happen, and now you see how it doesn't happen too. And so I would pick up the phone and call your congressman,   you know,   Republican, Democrat, whatever.  

I think this is,   the I think, you know, even if they don't give a damn, which I think they some of them do,   I think this is just the most let's just, like, look at it cynically. This is the easiest way for them to score political points against whoever they want. Like, nobody nobody looks good defending this. And so play the game if you want, whatever. I don't really care. I just think it needs to end yesterday.  

[00:41:34] ODELL:

Yeah. We need to get,   the samurai developers   out of out of this situation. It's   absolutely ridiculous.   So how did   how did we find out about this? Did they,   you know, eventually voluntary   voluntarily disclose it? Are you aware of   how it actually came up eventually?  

[00:41:57] Stephen Pollock:

Do we catch the mid one or something? Or I don't know. But whatever I say is gonna be, like, wrong because I'm gonna miss, like, one or two things. Okay. I don't know how this came out. It came out early April, and then the letter got released today.   But I don't know the, like, play by play of, like, how they So it might have  

[00:42:15] ODELL:

legal process. So it   yeah. So it actually might have something to do with the recent push for dismissal,   from the defense.   Also, since then,   I think it was maybe a little bit less than a month ago, the DOJ,   was it   someone came it wasn't the DOJ that came out and said that they're no longer gonna do   Biden era,   enforcement by prosecution   regulation by prosecution.  

[00:42:42] Stephen Pollock:

The the deputy attorney general released a memo April 7.  

[00:42:46] ODELL:

Is that what you're talking about? Yes. Yeah. But on the federal on the federal level. Yeah.  

[00:42:51] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah.   Yeah. I mean, you've kinda got you've kinda got a few things colliding. So you have executive order,   that Right. You know, January.   And that's like,   I got the quote.   Commits to protecting and promoting the ability to develop and deploy software to transact with other persons without unlawful censorship and to maintain self custody of digital assets. That's in the executive order.   And, I think, you know, people have problems with the executive order. That's in the executive order. I think it's pretty strong.   I like that. I like that in an executive order from the president of The United States. We basically wrote that. Right?  

Somebody wrote it.   Okay. General   on April 7 said,   ending regulation by prosecution. This is just like this April. Right?   Yeah. Deputy   general   Had a memo that says the DOJ will no longer target virtual currency exchanges, mixing and tumbling services, offline wallets for acts   of their end users or unwitting violation regulations.   And it prohibits the Bank Secrecy Act   charges unless the defendant willfully ignored a clear licensing duty.   And that's precisely what Finsen   said did not happen here. They're saying   samurai, one, isn't isn't   doing this. And two,   even if they are, they're definitely not willfully doing it, but they're not doing it.  



[00:44:22] ODELL:

Yeah.  

[00:44:23] Stephen Pollock:

So you have these two, you know, January EO and then this memo from this month.   The memo,   helps. Right?   And so you're   one, even under the old regime, you shouldn't be prosecuting because it doesn't make any sense, and you've and Finson's already covered that. And now under this new regime, they're saying we're not gonna do this anymore.   And so I'd imagine,   imagine they'd have to back they'd have to back down.   But, you know,  

[00:44:53] ODELL:

I guess optimistic.  

[00:44:56] Stephen Pollock:

I   I'll be optimistic when it's when it's actually done because Yeah. Exactly.   I'd I'd it's just it's unbelievable, man.   And   I hate that they're going through it.   I I think there's it's very personal.   I also think, like,   you   know,   this the message it sends not just to   Bitcoiners, but to entrepreneurs   across the country   is that   any guidance you've been given by,   the supposed,   regulatory   agency that oversees, you know, whatever you're doing, you cannot trust it at all   because we'll just make shit up and throw you in prison.  

[00:45:43] ODELL:

Yep.  

[00:45:44] Stephen Pollock:

And so that's that's the message   not just to software developers,   not just to Bitcoiners,   not just to people who are, you know, wanting to utilize a peer to peer network,   but to anyone doing anything   is that you can't trust the regulations   because   even if prosecutors   ask us and and we say, oh, they're a % compliant. They can say, oh, thanks for letting us know.   We're gonna do it anyway.   And that's not the country we live in. Or is it? I I guess we'll find out.  

[00:46:17] ODELL:

Well, I so just to put some context here on the timeline, which makes it even worse. And by the way, I see,   Jor zapped 8,900   sets. Thank you, Jor, for your support.   Just the timeline here for a little bit more context. So the samurai developers,   were they were arrested in April of last year. So it's a little bit over a year since then. So they were arrested in April of last year.   This report seems to show that   FinCEN was contacted,   six months prior to that and said that they were in a money transfer business, and they were fine under the law.   So that was probably   October,   November   '20 '20 '3.  

January '20 '20 '4, so in between FinCEN saying   that to the DOJ and the DOJ arresting them in January   So 10/31 was one of the investors of Samurai. We cowrote a legal brief   with Samurai that was signed by, like, 20 plus of our portfolio companies, some of the best Bitcoin companies in the world,   arguing for why   CoinJoin   and self custody wallets were legal under the law, being proactive about it, saying, like, look. We're not trying to break laws here. We're trying to be,   you know, within the the existing regulatory framework.   And FinCEN received that. And then three months later, DOJ went along with the prosecution anyway.  

So to to your point of entrepreneurs   not knowing where they stand,   at least under the last administration   and most administrations before that, I think that was very much the case.   I think it's pretty amazing to witness.   I it's if you weren't there at the time,   it's really hard   to explain it.   But April of last year,   Trump was behind in the polls.   People were pretending Biden was not,   you know,   completely   lost in terms   of dementia or whatnot. I'm not a doctor.   And   and   the boot was getting cracked on the Bitcoin industry, and a lot of people were disenfranchised.   A lot of people were scared.  

I remember trying to rally support   for the samurai legal defense fund, and it was really hard to get people on the phone. And even people that said they would support, you know, wouldn't do it publicly.   BPI significantly   stepped up to the plate.   Dave David Bailey, love or hate him,   was like, we are going to change the direction   of   of of this country's regulatory environment in terms of Bitcoin.   And   the progress that has been made over the last year is fucking insane.   It is absolutely insane.   Bitcoiners are clearly a force to be reckoned with. Young Matt would have told you,   fuck politics. I was completely disenfranchised.  

We're not gonna get anywhere with it.   Young Matt was wrong.   And and all you really need to do to to see what happens without a politically active,   Bitcoiner class and and Bitcoin industry is America versus Canada.   Like, Canada is a fucking mess right now. Like, if you're running a Bitcoin business in Canada, you're freaking out.   Even though they're right next to us,   they're practically a 50 state,   Their regulatory environment is fucking horrible, while in The US,   we are putting a big corner in every congressional office.  

[00:50:16] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. Crazy.   It is crazy. And I just saw   your comment here. Bitcoiners won't admit it, but it helps having a Bitcoin friendly administration.  

[00:50:27] ODELL:

I'm all admitting it. Yeah. I'm admitting it.  

[00:50:30] Stephen Pollock:

And,   you know,   I think it's I think it's unbelievable.   I know it's a little weird,   and I understand that, for some people. It's like you caught your tail a little bit.   But   I   I have a lot of experience at, like, state level and local politics. And and so, you know,   federal level is is a completely different animal in a number of ways. And I and so I completely understand that. I really do. I get it.   But it's also, like, in some ways, it's not. And I think working in local state and local politics,   you can develop the cynicism, which is 100%   appropriate, and I completely get it. And I've seen,   how it all happens   and the way things happen.  

But I've also seen the other side. And,   and so I think I'm I try to be   you know, I kinda play the middle a little bit, when I'm talking to people who are way too hopeful,   or, like, overly optimistic about what can happen   through Yeah.   I kinda have a word of caution.   And then when I talk to people who I think are maybe a little too cynical,   then I I I kinda take the opposite approach. It's a little bit nuanced, and and I'm not trying to, like, play games, but I've seen both. And so,   you know, I would much rather have   someone who cares   for whatever reason you think they care   and is and is on,   on team, like,   not round up and arrest people,   but   on team, like, release guidance for, like, letting people, you know, run their businesses and develop software   than than the alternative.  

And so,   I'm thankful for that. I'm grateful for that. I know there's a lot of other things that are happening, but, like, within a vacuum, like, I I'm very appreciative for that, However long it lasts.   I also think,   you know,   having   having this today doesn't guarantee we have this tomorrow ever again.   But I think,   you know, but I think that,   you know, I think we we're we should seize the opportunity and appreciate it for what it is.  

[00:52:44] ODELL:

We should a % seize the opportunity.   And we just gotta keep pushing. Like, we gotta push hard. I mean, I would look. I I   completely respect the Bitcoiner perspective   that,   you know, that there's a there's   a frog boiling situation   that, you know, people use the terms regulatory   clarity   and compliance to really mean surveillance and control.   I don't think that is obviated. Obviously, that is still a concern today.   But but you we don't live in a fucking vacuum. We don't live in a vacuum. And   and what we were witnessing   was over the last decade plus,   the frog boiling situation   where where it was the the regulatory trend was getting worse and worse. We were seeing surveillance increase. We were seeing control increase.  

That was the status quo. We were seeing I I saw my friends literally get thrown in a fucking gulag,   and more were coming. That was the environment. This time last year, the environment was, yeah, they started with the samurai developers,   but it doesn't matter what you're working on. They're coming after you next. And we saw that with companies like Phoenix pulling out of The United States. Right? Phoenix, which is, you know, a very polished operation   and tries to be very above board, even they were concerned,   that they would have they would have issues in terms of US government enforcement   and subjugation.  

And so we really had no choice. There was no choice. Our back the backs were against the wall,   and the only thing to do was to push back. And the only thing was was was to fight it in every way possible. And that is through tools and education, but that's also through policy work and education on the policy side.   And we've been incredibly effective. It is absolutely like, I we can you cannot overstate   the progress that has been made on that front over the last year. It's absolutely insane. And someone coming into Bitcoin now   just does not realize that, just does not   does not appreciate that.  



[00:54:52] Stephen Pollock:

The other thing I wanna add is someone coming into politics   just now doesn't appreciate it either.   And I think   I think,   you know, you ever see someone, like, you try something,   like, for you know, over and over and over again,   and they walk in and just make it look easy,   and they don't appreciate it because they made it look easy. Say someone who's, like, naturally gifted, like, on the basketball court or whatever.   Actually, my brother. It's a great example. I have a younger brother,   and, we're all over six foot tall, but he's, like, six seven.   So he's just a monster, and he's way younger than me. And I played basketball. You know? I tried,   all the way through school and stuff, and he just shows up and is, like,   banging in threes.  

He's six seven.   He can handle the ball. And it was just like, dude, you don't even understand how lucky you are. Like, we all would die. This is a horrible example, by the way. This is the one that came to mind.   And I just kinda wanted to give my brother a shout out.   Like, listen.   This doesn't happen.   That's this is my point. Like, you   this does not happen this way. I worked   in the Bitcoin space at a nonprofit for a few years now, but, like, I some of those guys just joining, I spent a decade in public affairs, government relations. My my father was a state representative until he term limited out, which I love the idea of term limits, by the way.   And another family member was a state representative at my home state.  

I was, you know, kinda ear to the ground through,   my, like, you know, high school, college years. I ended up working in in my home state for a while. I work I've been in 40 different states.   I've lobbied.   This doesn't happen this way, especially for some, like, geek group that, like, it you know, just shows   up, doesn't have a CEO, has no centralization   of, like, authority or, like, way to just   and even if you do,   like, take any you could try hundred   it would never happen this way.   You don't just, like, show up day one and get executive orders.   You don't just say, hey. This isn't fair. We need to change regulation, and   the United States government says, you know what? You're right. We're gonna change that.  

You're right. This isn't fair. It doesn't happen that way, and it definitely doesn't happen in nine months,   but it just did.   This is you can hire   a a top   tier.   What   do all the other adjectives   lobby firm in any state   or in the state capital   or in the in the nation's capital,   and you would be paying retainers for a decade.   And maybe you get a winner too, small.   Yet, here we are.   And   I think,   to me, I'm like, oh my god. Like, this is   it's a miracle, honestly.   And I know I know everybody like, there's all the cynical side of it, and I completely understand that. But within a vacuum of just like   this, like, this is a   this is a coup.  

And   I I just have a deep appreciation, a deep gratitude for everyone who   who was involved and is involved,   the David Bailey's of the world, whatever you think about all these people,   I think they did something   incredible,   and, I'm really grateful for it. And I you know, you can't change my mind on that because I've just seen how hard it is.   And and the cynicism is well earned, and maybe things go back to how they were or get worse. I don't know the future. But right now,   we have a massive opportunity.   And,   and I I see what I see are are people who are really trying to take advantage of it. And the first thing we gotta do is get these guys out of prison because and and get get this trial over worth with because it's,   it's a disgrace.  

And   I think what you saw with Ross,   that doesn't happen.   And even go to the state level. You know? Man,   government takes forever,   and that can work for you or against you. Right?   I think that's that's my favorite thing about government is that it's the most inefficient system in the history of mankind. I love that about government.   I think it should always be inefficient, except for whenever I wanted to do something. Right? Of course. Like, then we want it to be hyper efficient and happen tomorrow. And in this case, it did. It's just kinda crazy to me.   I'm not, like, trying to overly, you know,   like, over trying to sell this to anyone. I'm just telling you my my opinion and what I see based on, like,   career and politics. And even people I know that aren't in Bitcoin, they're like, how the hell did you guys pull that off?  

They're like, that's   you know? And it's, you know, there's a lot of people working   behind the scenes. And,   and I   I appreciate those people who did because they really risked a lot because it could've hit yeah. Anyway.  

[00:59:57] ODELL:

Well said. I mean, so why do you   why do you think it I have my own reasons about why why I think it was possible.   How did how the hell did we pull it off? How the hell did we make so much progress in really,   basically, a year? And not really like, Bitcoin Policy Institute got created   three years ago, four years ago, but the real progress was the last year, year and a half.  

[01:00:23] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:00:24] Stephen Pollock:

Well, first of all,   I don't I don't think my opinion is, like, the definitive opinion. There's other   are better equipped to answer that. But I think that I think that, I think a few things, like,   happened.   Some people had a really good plan.   It takes a good plan.   It takes, like, good timing   and,   and some luck.   And   and then I also think it helps to be right.   And this is something I talk about a lot   with with, our work at BPI is that it really helps to be just right.   And,   and Bitcoiners   are right about most things.   And and so you're like, hey.  

You know,   Bitcoin's good for The United States Of America.   I think that's true. And I think, you know, you stand some other things up against it. Like, hey. Like, ripple is good for The United States Of America. I think that's not true. I mean, whatever.   Like, it doesn't make any yeah. So it helps to be right because there are people,   believe it or not, who do give a damn about what's right and wrong,   who are seeking   the truth and trying to do the best they can. And some of them even work in congress,   believe it or not.  

Am I saying all elected officials are that way? Of course not. That's a that would be a ridiculous statement. But I think it's equally ridiculous to say that all of them are bad. I think there are people who are really trying to do try to serve their country, and they mean what they say.   And I've met those people.   And I've known people who were great people before they went into office and turned into horrible people. And I've seen people who were great people before they went into office and became better people and became better leaders.   And I've seen people who were horrible people before they went to office. Most of them were pretty much stayed horrible people once they got in office.  

But, but I think being right helps.   And I think, you know, I think we're onto something here with this.   I think that's I think I think that's the message that resonated in in, you know,   the further up we go is people are like, yeah. Either they already knew about Bitcoin, and they're like, yeah, dude. I've always thought Bitcoin was super cool. I'm like,   man, finally, I can start talking about this a little more. I think we're seeing some of that. There's more Bitcoiners in in DC than we ever imagined. Right?   Even at three letter   agencies,   that are, like, kinda   you know?  

These you know, there's thousands of people in cubicles. Right? And they've got their little Bitcoin stuff pinned up in their cubicle, and everybody's just like you know, they talk about their lunch break just like normal people would.   And now they're like, oh, this is sort of in vogue. Like, this is happening. This is a topic. Now I can talk about it at work.   I think we're seeing some of that play out too.  

[01:03:16] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, at the event last,   month, I had an older gentleman come up to me and he said, huge fan of the podcast and that he used to work at the agency.   And I was hoping he was referring to the EPA, but he was referring to the CIA.   And there's just   there's Bitcoiners everywhere.   There's Bitcoiners everywhere. And the I think your points make a lot of sense. And and just this fact that we we have this organic grassroots   global community,   of of people that have relatively aligned   ideas, but more importantly, aligned incentives around this this network and this asset. Right? And and and and it's almost like it's like a shared equity. Right? It's like as as this as this network grows, we all have increased purchasing power. We all have increased freedom to do with what we want in our lives.   And so this grassroots   community already existed.  

So, like, when the backs were up against the wall and the the the moment was was here and and we had to act, a lot of people stepped up. And they didn't have to be   cold called   or they didn't have to knock on their doors or whatever. Like, they were ready to go. They were like, put me in coach. Time to go. Let's fucking make this thing happen.   And that's special. That's you can't recreate that. It doesn't matter how much VC money you have from, like, a 16 z or whatever.   You can spend billions of fucking dollars,   and you can't recreate that.  

That has to happen naturally and organically, and it's one of the single most bullish fundamentals about Bitcoin in general.  

[01:04:50] Stephen Pollock:

That's a fantastic point.   The one of the most hilarious things to be a part of, and I and most, like, campaigns are this way.   You start this campaign,   you know, whatever the issue is.   And   and so as   you see, for people listening, when I talk about campaigns, there's, like, candidate campaigns where you're like, hey. Let's get this person elected.   And then there's issue   advocacy, issue campaigns.   And that can be,   you know, hey. We wanna,   you know,   lower taxes,   right, at you know, in this state or wherever.   And,   and so then you're like   you always see a campaign because they're like, alright. We've got all this money   from interested parties.  

We raise all this money up.   And then you're like, alright. What do we do with it? We're gonna run a campaign.   We're gonna do media and all this shit. And,   the big thing at the top, though, is like, we need hey. You know what we need? We need some grassroots   advocacy.   And they're like, oh, cool. Yeah. Great idea.   Alright. Let's cobble together our grassroots team.   And what's the thing they do?   They realize they don't have a goddamn grassroots team,   because   thing that most thing like, most issues have. Most people are busy. They're going to work. They're raising kids.   They're, like, doing their thing,   you know,   shopping for groceries.  

Like, their kid's sick. Like, whatever.   I don't have time to be a grassroots advocate.   And so then you have to artificially   create   this grassroots support. You're like, I know people like tax cuts.   They just don't really care enough to, like, show up to events or anything because they're busy. So, like,   you know, some groups will pay   protesters to show up.   I know everybody's shocked to hear that.   And so they spend, you know, millions of dollars to pay people to show up, or they, like, send a thousand emails, and they try to get all your, like, phone numbers so they can text you.   And they artificially   create. And by artificially, I create create, I mean, they actually still don't do it. Even they spend all this money, they still can't get people to do anything because   you can't force people to care.  

And with Bitcoin,   we kinda have the opposite problem. We have a fantastic   grassroots   network.   It's literally like the definition of, you know, the bit of Bitcoin.   And,   it it is what it is.   What did we not have? Like,   organization, centralization.   I'm not saying that's a thing. It's what the the reality of,   of the, like, boots on the ground.   And so I think you're seeing, like,   kind of the first thing you're talking about campaign strategy. You can have all this money   and, like, this powerful group of people that wanna enact some plan,   or you can have all these, like, random people who just care about something. Which one's gonna win?  

Well, I think we're seeing that. And so I think there's a lot of power there.   Name one other group.   Maybe not one. Name five other groups that are   that have the same, like, level of grassroots passion,   that that you're see that you see for The the gun the gun lobby.  

[01:08:18] ODELL:

Right. Right. It's like it's like guns, religion, and Bitcoin.  

[01:08:23] Stephen Pollock:

Right.   Yeah.   Yeah.   It's pretty   pretty accurate.  

[01:08:28] ODELL:

Those are the three. Like, religious  

[01:08:31] Stephen Pollock:

grassroots and gun grassroots groups have been pretty successful over the years. Yeah. And so,   you know, I I think a lot of it is   the power of that, and, then a lot of it is also,   people are in power   seeing that,   and saying, oh, damn. I don't know if we wanna   align against   this group because we we you know, even if you wanted to,   you it's not like there's a grassroots   passionate group of,   you know, sovereign individuals that   have all got together to talk about how bad Bitcoin is or how bad you know, this this doesn't exist.   And so there's zero opposition on the grassroots side.  

Although some would like to try to convince you otherwise or, do the do the old strategy of have a lot of money, and, hopefully, dollars equates grassroots support. It just doesn't work that way.  

[01:09:25] ODELL:

Yep. Well said.   So you guys have this big event coming up, your your landmark event coming up, next month.   What's the deal with that?   Should people go?   No. What's what's are you excited about it? Is it sold out already?   What's up? Yeah. Yeah. So Bitcoin the Bitcoin policy summit, this is our third annual. I feel like when you get to the third one, you can really start saying annual. You know? Can't say I was thinking it's Right. I was thinking it's funny when you see, like, a restaurant or whatever, and they have the established sign outside, and it's like last year. It's like, okay. Well, you're a dreamer. You know, one day if one day, it'll be old. But Yeah. Unless you're doing Sorry. Third annual.  

[01:10:08] Stephen Pollock:

Unless you're doing it ironically, then it's like, hey. That's pretty funny. You know?   But third annual Bitcoin I'm at,   June 25 in Washington DC.   And we love like I said earlier, we love to have as many Bitcoiners as possible show up.   It's it's gonna be a blast if you like, if you like that kind of thing.   But,   and I do, and I think everyone here does.   It's it's gonna be a monumental summit. It really is. I'm not saying that just because it's ours or just because whatever, but, like,   it's gonna be it's gonna be freaking huge, man. You saw it happen with Bitcoin for America. We can play the video again later or whatever,   in March.  

And we're here. We're,   we're bring our whole goal for the summit, and this is why we started it a few years ago,   isn't to sell a bunch of tickets or, like, you know, all this kind of stuff.   It really to get   Bitcoiners on stage, our best and brightest,   and to make the case   for elected officials, policymakers,   regulatory bodies, government agencies,   all the people,   that either make decisions or help influence decisions   and say, hey. Like, Bitcoin's awesome, man. And Bitcoin's good for our country. And there's a lot of people that support,   you know, peer to peer rights and all these things we've been talking about.  

Decentralized network, like the ability to, you know, self custody, all these sort of things. And why that's   not just, like, why people support it, but why that's a good idea and how it interlocks with the greater ideals   of United States Of America.   And   to take it further, and I'm gonna,   trip and stumble over Matt Pine's territory here,   you know, how it helps The United States   or could help The United States kind of fulfill some of its goals,   as far as nation state competition   and, some of the things we're facing internationally   in the next ten years, five years, two days,   apparently now.  

So that's kind of the vision is to get the staffers out there in the audience to get Bitcoiners on stage. So they're opposite of what you normally see in Washington, DC. They're always talking to you, and we say, hey. You wanna hear about Bitcoin?   And we actually you know, even a few years ago, had the first one, it was like   I joined I put full time with Bitcoin Policy Institute,   and it was, like, a month later, like, FTX collapses.   Everything's on fire.   You know?   People are running out of buildings, and,   it was all all hell broke loose. And,   and so   you see how that, like, impacted   us. Well, imagine the impact it had in Washington DC for people who didn't know any most of their first experience, their baseline,   you know, and   Bitcoin came from. They're like, well, what what the hell is FTX or an SBF? But, they buzzed in pretty   and, oh, Bitcoin? Oh, I've always wondered what Bitcoin was. Now I understand.  

So it created, like, kind of a kind of a a pretty bad situation, especially for a Bitcoin policy think tank in DC.   So we said, alright. We've gotta hit reboot, man. We've gotta turn the power off and turn it back on again. And so   we just decided to own it. We said, hey. FTX collapsed. Bitcoin looks pretty bad right now. Why don't you come to the summit and let's talk about it?   And we had a lot of people show up. And so we were able to talk to talk to this,   this group of, like, few hundred   policymakers   and say, hey. Here's what Bitcoin really is.  

We think this was horrible too.   We don't support any of this.   Here's some human rights activists. Here's how they use Bitcoin. Here's a real use case.   This is not a real use case. This was a bad use case.   In fact, this was kind of opposite of what Bitcoin stands for.   But here's what Bitcoin is really about. And here's people that you can trust, and here's what they're doing with it   and with the network.   And that was powerful. We had some really powerful,   compelling,   speakers.   So we ran it back the next year, and it was like, should Bitcoin should, America embrace Bitcoin?   And we made the case why we thought that was probably a good idea. And,   you know, I don't know if it's prophetic or what, but, like, kinda seems like it happened a little bit this year.  

And so this year, in June 25,   we're gonna say, okay. America's embracing Bitcoin.   Now what?   What happens next?   And I think we're gonna run it back with Andrew Holmes. He's on the speaker's,   list now. We're talking   bonds, you know, keynote two point o. Super excited about that. He's obviously our boy and your boy. You're a great guy.   We have a couple, we've announced a couple elected officials speaking. We're gonna make a major announcement tomorrow.   It's gonna be it's gonna be cool. We got some big get some big heavy hitters coming,   and, we're gonna do a full day of,   really keynotes. We've kind of we've kinda moved away from the panel. So I have a couple panels,   that are compelling, some really good ones. But, we're we're gonna do a lot of keynotes, like lightning talks, like ten minutes.  

And, just, you know, mining energy,   the strategic initiatives there,   you know, Bitcoin, strategic Bitcoin reserve, human rights, like, up and down the line.   The   fun thing that I think people are gonna be asked about so you show up on Tuesday, Tuesday night, show up early,   Boring Odell.   And show we're going to do a preview party at the new,   Pub Key that's gonna be opening in Washington DC.  

[01:15:55] ODELL:

Is that public information? Yeah.  

[01:15:58] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. That's that's out there, man. We're doing a we're doing a party. I mean, it definitely is now. So   Yeah. It's out there now.   And,   and so, you know, it's BPI HQ,   the Bitcoin Embassy, PubKey,   DC. That's gonna open a long time from now, but if you come to the summit, you get a little preview on it. We're gonna do a little party there. Yeah. The the BPI offices will be based in the same  

[01:16:22] ODELL:

the same building as new Pub QDC because everyone knows that policy really happens over drinks in a darkly lit bar.  

[01:16:30] Stephen Pollock:

That's right. It's where the real work gets done when everybody's   intoxicated   and, you know, singing,   Irish   songs.  

[01:16:39] ODELL:

It's shanties.  

[01:16:41] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. She we need some Bitcoin   shanties, man.  

[01:16:45] ODELL:

We're working on it.  

[01:16:47] Stephen Pollock:

Or 334   time, you know, 12.   We can write one. That's what we'll do next, Rit, man. We'll write some I had my I had my,  

[01:16:57] ODELL:

we were out to lunch with my son with our son, my wife and I.   And he's, he's speaking words. He's got, you know, his first base words, but he's still a little bit young for, like, full words. And she just, like, went into a shanty, but just complete gibberish, you know, like, it was a toddler shanty.   And I I came to the same conclusion. I was like, we do need some Bitcoiner ones. But he, like, was looking around the cafe. He wanted people to join in with him, and everyone's like, we have no idea what you're saying.  

[01:17:26] Stephen Pollock:

Abel's   yeah. Bitcoin. We need some Bitcoin limericks as well. Yeah.   But yeah. So Tuesday night So that's Tuesday night.   That's the twenty fourth, June '20 fourth. Tuesday night's launch Embassy launch party, come have some beers, hang out. We're gonna it's gonna be fun. Then we get serious on Wednesday, throw the tie on. We do the summit, all the keynotes.  

[01:17:49] ODELL:

We've got a VIP to wear a suit?   Strongly advised.   It's strongly advised.  

[01:17:56] Stephen Pollock:

I think you should.   You know,   I think it's kinda like   yeah. I think you're gonna want to or at least we're a, you know, we're a we're a button up. You can you can leave the top on a Don. I'd throw a button up.  

[01:18:10] ODELL:

I wore a collar. Draw  

[01:18:12] Stephen Pollock:

on.   You know.  

[01:18:15] ODELL:

I woulda had to buy to be clear, I woulda had to buy a suit because the only suit I own is my wedding suit, and it just didn't feel like the right situation for it.  

[01:18:26] Stephen Pollock:

I mean, how many more times married, man? Like,   wear your suit.  

[01:18:31] ODELL:

I know, but it's like a bright green. It was a little bit aggressive.   But yeah. Anyway, I mean, to be clear, that was my second time ever in DC, and the first time was a field trip during college.   Just to I was like, besides my wear my attire, I was completely out of my element.  

[01:18:53] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. It's kinda weird, man, when you first kinda it's a it's a little,   there's a shock to the system. You know? It's like a cold plunge.   You know? You go to DC.   You know?   I currently I forget   it. Not been to I forget   If you not been to DC, this is a good chance.  

[01:19:11] ODELL:

I forget who the stat who the staff was, but when I walked in the first time, there was two BPI staff members, like,   taking people's tickets.   And   I walked up and, like, one of them was like, who's this schmuck that's completely underdressed? And the other one was like, oh, that's Matt O'Dell, one of our board members.   What a timeline we live in. Okay. So Tuesday, then Wednesday it's a two day event. Wednesday and Thursday is the event?  

[01:19:38] Stephen Pollock:

Tuesday night,   all day Wednesday is the summit, like, the the, you know, panels, the presentations, all that sort of thing. People hang out that night.   And then,   and, hey, we're still looking for a few sponsors to help us cover the cost of the event.   If you need to if you if you're interested, I'm your guy.  

[01:19:57] ODELL:

What's the way best way they could reach out?  

[01:20:00] Stephen Pollock:

Just shoot me an email. Shoot me an email.  

[01:20:03] ODELL:

Okay.   What?  

[01:20:07] Stephen Pollock:

You want me to share my email address?  

[01:20:11] ODELL:

I mean, yeah. If if you should probably share your email add I mean, I know it.  

[01:20:15] Stephen Pollock:

Alright.   [email protected].   S p o l l o c k at b t c policy dot org.  

[01:20:24] ODELL:

I think put it in the show notes because then the AI is just gonna start spamming you. But Right. I kinda like it. I like when AI spams me. It's like, like, it's kinda nice.  

[01:20:35] Stephen Pollock:

So   Wednesday is all the content. Thursday, we're doing Thursday's a new thing. So we're doing a day two this year, and we've never done that. So we're gonna have, like,   sort of closed door round tables, people meeting with elected officials,   And then we're gonna do a day on the hill, which is gonna be awesome. Our new government affairs director,   mister Egan, is leading the charge on that. And we're gonna take Bitcoiners,   and we're just gonna go to to, Capitol Hill, meet with congressional offices,   talk to them, introduce, hey. You know,   do the deal on the hill thing, which is, which is gonna be really fun. If you've never done something like that, we'd love for you to come and,   and be a part   be a part of the process.  

You can you know, maybe you get to meet your elected official from your from your, you know, wherever, or you can just kinda be part of the group, whatever you wanna do, meet with staffers. They're always   I remember the first time I did one, and it was kinda like, oh, everybody's gonna be busy. Are they gonna be annoyed that I'm here or whatever? It's like it's actually kind of encouraging and kind of fun. You're like they're really excited. Like, hey. You came all the way to their office to talk about the thing you really care about.   And, I think you'll be hopefully, you'll be pleasantly surprised,   even for those of you who are a little skeptical,   to just kinda see there's there's some there's some normal people here that are really curious, intellectually curious, and they wanna know what what's up with Bitcoin. Why is this why is I think one of my favorite things one of my favorite stories is I had a staffer,   that I knew, and they're, like, kinda into Bitcoin, and they're interested, and, like, you know, they're talking about it in their staff meetings. And   and they they but they mentioned they're like, there's this guy on staff and, you know,   he's always talking about, like, illicit finance and, like, Bitcoin's, like, money laundering for drug lords or whatever. And so I was like, well, I happen to work at Bitcoin think tank. Let's test that and see. So we did a white paper about how that how that you know? And it's just, like, not the use case for Bitcoin, and   and, I caught up with him later. I said, hey. Did you ever hear from, you know, did you ever hear from, your fellow staffer? And he was like, yeah. I never mentioned that ever again in a meeting. So I was like, yeah. Cool.  

You know, let's dunk on people with white papers.   And so,   they're like that. You know, there's people who wanna learn. You know? There's people who who are opposed.   There's opportunity there. We'd love for you to come out. It's gonna be it's gonna be phenomenal, week in in Washington.   And you can kinda see what we're about. You know? See what we're about.   Website is btcpolicysummit.org.   B t c policy summit Org.   And, we do have a   it's invite only,   but we ask you to apply to attend,   to keep the riffraff out.   And so, but, you know, I think pretty much, if you guys apply, I'll I'll check it out. I look at the, you know, we look at the all the you know? So please apply. We it you know? Unless you're, like,   on a terrorist watch   list, we probably you know, we may not let you in, but,   which maybe some of you are. You know? We're not gonna we're not gonna determine that here on the scheduled dispatch.  

But if you're   if you're a functioning adult,   we'd probably love to have you. I would love to have you.  

[01:23:52] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, like, space is limited.   The exact verbiage is request to join.   It is And,  

[01:24:01] Stephen Pollock:

we have sold a lot of tickets already   and  

[01:24:05] ODELL:

but I think, you know, we'll try to figure out a way to to make room for you. We'd love to have you. But, yeah, where where I was going with this is, like, don't be self conscious. The worst thing that you know, worst case scenario, there's no no space for you. And   and,   you know, Steven and his team will say so.   But you literally have nothing to lose. Consider getting out of your comfort zone and and attending. I will say that last month's event,   while overwhelming, was was something incredibly unique and impactful and something that I will never forget.   Full disclosure,   these are paid tickets. So it's $500   if you just want the one day ticket, and it's $800   if you want the day on the hill as well.  

And, obviously, you will get your money back if if Steven rejects your application. We we're not just gonna take your money from you. Keeping your money.  

[01:25:00] Stephen Pollock:

No. And   Well, if Go on.   If ticket cost is the is the reason you're not coming,   please shoot me an email and figure something out.  

[01:25:11] ODELL:

Yeah. I I mean, to be clear here,   BTC the Bitcoin Policy Institute is a nonprofit.   We run on a relatively   shoestring budget.   I personally and the rest of our three person board do not get paid,   for our work there.   So any support is is helpful, whether that's buying a ticket and attending,   whether that's, you know, if you run a company becoming a sponsor of of the event or the organization,   or donating. You do if you're an American, you can get a tax credit.   If if if you wanna be anonymous, you can donate anonymously, and you won't get the tax credit. But you can donate anonymously with Bitcoin, which is,   also   completely   understated benefit of Bitcoin   through my work on both OpenSats   and Bitcoin Policy Institute.  

It kinda blows your mind when someone sends, you know, $200,000   donation anonymously.   Like, I don't think people really appreciate that. That's 2 Bitcoin. You know? Someone just drops 2 Bitcoin in the donation address and boom, done.   That was never possible before. Kinda crazy.  

[01:26:20] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah. It is cool.   And,   you know, it would be cool if someone did that for us.   We would love it, man.   Yeah.   I'm afraid from wearing my, I've tried to my best to not wear my, VP of development hat, but you kinda handed it to me. So my old job at at BPI right now is focused on   helping the Bitcoin Policy Institute become an enduring institute you see. I don't think Bitcoin's going anywhere.   And I think but I do think that,   I think it's gonna become increasingly important that we have, like, thoughtful policy   in our in the most powerful country in in the world that we think about this carefully   as what there like it or not, policy is going to be made.  

That's just true. And,   I think it would be better,   if if with regard to Bitcoin, specifically, I mean, Bitcoin policy is going to happen, and we've already seen   what can happen.   I think,   the more   more people in the room that have an understanding of Bitcoin appreciation for it,   may even own it or at least think it's really interesting and cool and important,   the better.   And so our whole job as a nonprofit is to educate elected officials, educate policy makers, staffers,   anyone, everyone who will listen in our nation's capital, and to help them grow in their Bitcoin journey to understand it,   and then to offer sort of, like, you know,   wisdom,   about policy and things that it could you know, second order effects that maybe people haven't thought through all the way,   that might happen down the road. And so   that's what we do. We you know, people run things by us. We run things by them.  

It's a lot of off the books meetings,   a lot of off the books meetings   with our team,   and   and and trying to help our country be wise   as it's making decisions   about,   policy and directives, with regard to Bitcoin and digital currencies and all the whole sorta   of the whole thing. And so my job's help us become a a legacy institution. It's not just here, you know, for a few years or five years, but,   five, ten, twenty years, thirty years down the line,   that that BPI would become the type of organization that,   oh, yeah. Like, man,   you know, they were I remember when BPI was, you know,   on the front lines back in 2025   and 2023.  

And look at it now. Like, look at we never would have imagined where we are, and I'm glad that maybe some of the things we're doing now   or have done or will do soon   will have a lasting impact. And we'll look back and say, man, I'm glad we really took that seriously back then because it could've went a lot differently.   So that's the kind of that's the kind of institution we're trying to build.   We've got a lot of work to do.   We're really just getting started, and   we can't charge for our services as a nonprofit five zero one c three. That's why we get a tax exempt status. We rely on,   we rely on people to to fund our work, and,   a lot of people have been very generous. And so if you're if you've supported us and you're listening,   thank you.  

Literally could not do it without you, and, couldn't do it without you, Matt. Thanks for your your support. I know you put a ton of time and energy   into BPI and   personally haven't got gotten anything back.   But,   but,   you've been an advocate,   one you know, and on our board. And so founding board member.   So thank you, man. Really means a lot, and I'm honored that you plugged me into it. It's, it it was a perfect fit.  

[01:30:12] ODELL:

Well, you know, as a as an American, I think,   along with a lot of my fellow Americans, we've gotten significant benefit from the work at Bitcoin Policy Institute.   I mean, I remember   remember when we were joking,   this was probably, like, a year ago, maybe a little bit longer,   that we're gonna make hats that said Bitcoin Policy Institute keeping you out of the gulags.   It was more real than we ever really considered.   That's it. That's the synopsis. You know? If you wanna raise a family, you wanna grow a business, you wanna   see   America be a strong country and and our communities be   stronger than they have ever were before,   you gotta step up to the plate.  

And, Bitcoin Policy Institute will help keep us out of the gulags   in the process.   That's right.   Let's get,  

[01:31:05] Stephen Pollock:

let's get the samurai.   You know? Let's get them out here first, and then we Yeah. I'm in.  

[01:31:11] ODELL:

We got Ross free.   We'll free samurai. We'll repeal the Bank Secrecy Act.   These are just   some of the goals, that we have.   I think the sky's the limit. I think we have to keep pushing. I think we need to be optimistic.   Another piece   which is relevant for both OpenStads and Bitcoin Policy Institute   is because we're Bitcoiners,   we keep a Bitcoin treasury. So   you can know that if you donate,   every expense is weighed on the opportunity cost of Bitcoin.   Unlike most charities,   your money will will not go frivol frivolously wasted. You know? If if if   if it doesn't make sense to spend it, we will hold it in Bitcoin for the long term,   so that we could spend in the future when it is when it is needed.  

So don't worry about waste on that side. I think that's   also one of the understated benefits   that people don't realize is that it really does force efficiency   and and and and responsibility   in in how in how you spend funds. And that's in the private sector, but that's also,   with charities.   Steven, this was a great chat. I I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought you did great for your second podcast appearance. I actually realized,   we we also did a radio show together in Nashville,   which is not quite a podcast, but   kinda cool.  



[01:32:39] Stephen Pollock:

That was,   that was interesting,  

[01:32:42] ODELL:

wasn't it? That it was awesome.   I mean, it's   it's you know, you can do as many podcasts in the world, but going to an actual radio studio and sitting down with an actual radio host   is just a completely different vibe. Like, that's not   a   Yeah. I'll remember that for a while.  

[01:33:01] Stephen Pollock:

That happened because I,   you know, I was I was at home working one day and,   you know, cooking on something. And my wife calls me, and she's like,   there's this radio station we, like, off and on will listen to, you know, or she'll have it on in the background.   And   and, I didn't actually know she, like, listened to talk radio is the funny thing.   She's not, like, a talk radio gal, but she was, like, go she was on a talk radio kick,   and,   one of the local stations was,   she called me. She was kinda, like, all amped up. She's like, they're talking about Bitcoin. They're talking about Bitcoin on the radio. But I was like, really? And it was the station that we listened to and,   at the whatever hour.  

And I was like, what are they saying? She was like, well, they're, like, asking people. They, like, don't know any of it, and they're asking people to to call. And so I was like, that's funny.   And so I'm like,   okay. I'll call them. And, like, you know, I kinda feel a little bit of, like, civic responsibility here. It's my radio station.   So I called to let the producer hey. If you ever really do wanna talk about Bitcoin,   I know people that could come on. I was thinking of, you know, you,   you know, others like the, you know, the OG, like, podcast host that could just come on. And and so I call in, and they're like, hello. This is blah blah blah blah blah. And I was like, hey. I was just gonna talk about I wanted to talk to somebody about the Bitcoin thing. And they're like, cool. Give me one second.   And I was like, alright. So I'm just, like, shooting emails. Like, I just got this thing on speaker phone, and they're like, hey. You're locked on such and such. They just off the radio.  

And I was like, oh, what's up?   You know,   like, fifteen minutes   on this radio show.   And, I'm like, you know, the guy doesn't know nothing. He's asking all these wild questions. I don't even know how to answer. You know? Like, it is it really orange, or isn't it a little, like, green? I'm like, what are you talking about? You know? Like, just goofy questions.   And so, anyway, we get all hanging there like, hey.   If you want, you come in studio sometime, and let's talk. And so we did. I brought I brought Odell, and we had a we had a fun time. Actually, I like that kind of stuff, man. Those radio interviews are fun. You're right. It it's a blast.  

[01:35:23] ODELL:

Yeah. That was cool.   I enjoyed it. We were a good team. We worked well together.  

[01:35:29] Stephen Pollock:

I gotta I gotta shout out Wood Butcher. Thanks. This is a quote, from Wood Butcher. That's a funny name.   On here, it says, thanks for all your great work keeping my ass out of the gulag, my number one priority.   Man.  

[01:35:45] ODELL:

There you go. We gotta make we gotta make the hats.  

[01:35:48] Stephen Pollock:

That's what it's gotta say. Keeping your ass out of the gulag is what it's gotta say. Yeah. There you go. It's a little strong. We could do we could do money signs for the ass part.  

[01:36:00] ODELL:

This is great. I'll try and is that radio show on the   is do we have a link to it? Was it on the Internet too?  

[01:36:10] Stephen Pollock:

Yeah, dude.   I'm sure it is.  

[01:36:15] ODELL:

If you track it down and send it to me, I'll put it in the show notes because I don't know. It was a fun rip. It was special.   And I'll put it in the description for people.  

[01:36:24] Stephen Pollock:

You really,   you really did did well on it.  

[01:36:30] ODELL:

You did well.   Likewise, sir. Likewise.   So, anyway, this is a great chat, Freaks. Next week,   I got,   VNPRC,   coming on, and we're gonna talk about hash pools, which is,   the the concept of using Cashew, using Charming eCash to make mining pools better. That's I'm really excited about this conversation. He's fucking awesome. It'll be a really fun chat.   And that's gonna be at sixteen thirty UTC, Monday, the twelfth.   I got another show lined up the week after that. I'm trying to just keep popping them out every week, especially right now that I'm I'm taking a little break from travel, focusing on family,   like, a little bit settled in over here.  

So I'm gonna try and pump out as many dispatches as possible.   Thank you for supporting the show. If you donate Bitcoin, it's, means a lot. Keeps me coming in week in and week out.   Literally, every set matters.   I I noticed it. Every comment matters. I'm reading all your comments, even the mean ones.   On that note, I saw earlier that Vague zapped 4,200 stats and said Matt Odell is grumpy. I do read the mean comments as well.  

[01:37:42] Stephen Pollock:

David   shout out, man. Listen. Alright. I'm I'm a professional fundraiser. Can I help you out?  

[01:37:48] ODELL:

Yeah.  

[01:37:50] Stephen Pollock:

Somebody drop a bag on this guy. This is this show's incredible.   He's been running it for, like, thirty years.   Some, like, some, like, support the show. This is one of   the badass shows out there. He does it completely free. He doesn't run any ads. He does a fantastic job. He does it every week. I've never done anything that consistent in my life. Like, you know, like, somebody,   whoever,   plea support   Matt. Like, this this show is fucking awesome. And thank you for doing it, Matt. I appreciate it. I've learned so much from this over the years, and it's an honor to be on, man. But I wanted to shill you.  

[01:38:24] ODELL:

Thank you, Steven. I appreciate it.   Great chat. We'll have you on again sometime in the future. Do a catch up maybe in six months, a year.   Try to make it a little bit more of a regular thing. I think that'd be fun.   I mean, look what we got done in a year. Imagine where and neck next year, we're gonna be like,   I don't even know. Can't really comprehend where it would be. Let's just keep the let's keep the momentum up.  

[01:38:47] Unknown:

We'll do it, man. We'll do it. Thanks for having me on. Much love, freaks. Btcpolicy.org,  

[01:38:52] ODELL:

if you want more information. Btcpolicysummit.org   if you want to go to the event.   Steven's on x. It's s pollock   is his username.   I you're not on Nostra. Right?  

[01:39:07] Stephen Pollock:

S pollock b t c   on x. S pollock b t c. And you're not on Noster yet. Right? I have an account,   Manon.  

[01:39:17] ODELL:

He's gonna use Noster more in the future, but he's not yet. And if you need to email him, he already told you his email address. It's [email protected].   Send him an email. Just say hi. You don't even have to he let apparently, he just likes receiving   emails. So   Do not. Just say hi.  

[01:39:37] Stephen Pollock:

Send them so many emails already.   Unless you're AM.  

[01:39:42] ODELL:

Yeah.   This is David. Thank you for joining. Love you freaks. Stay on the stack stats. Peace.