Citadel Dispatch

Share on social media:

NVK is the cofounder of Coinkite, the leading bitcoin only hardware provider in the industry. Coinkite's Coldcards are the easiest way to secure bitcoin and provide users a variety of features depending on their personal situation. We discuss his product philosophy, the state of self custody bitcoin adoption, and future outlooks.

Disclosure: Ten31 is the exclusive investor in Coinkite.

NVK on Nostr: https://primal.net/nvk
Coinkite: https://coinkite.com
Ten31: https://ten31.xyz
OpenSats: https://opensats.org

EPISODE: 157
BLOCK: 894522
PRICE: 1050 sats per dollar

Video: https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqs8e7r570j3heg3zztd6l9qcfhlpzzm446we6e4lsytcwshnngg0acfh4vmr

support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/donate
nostr live chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/stream
odell nostr account: https://primal.net/odell
dispatch nostr account: https://primal.net/citadel
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@CitadelDispatch
podcast: https://serve.podhome.fm/CitadelDispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
rock the badge: https://citadeldispatch.com/shop
join the chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/chat
learn more about me: https://odell.xyz

(00:00:00) Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick on Bitcoin Mining

(00:01:48) Happy Bitcoin Tuesday

(00:03:47) Guest Introduction: NVK from Coinkite

(00:06:38) Self Custody and Retail Interest in Bitcoin

(00:12:00) Coldcard Features and Security

(00:20:00) Key Teleport and New Co-Signing Features

(00:30:00) PushTX and Simplifying Bitcoin Transactions

(00:45:00) Coldcard Q vs MK4: Choosing the Right Device

(01:03:00) Self Custody Trends and Market Insights

(01:12:00) Nostr Hardware and Future Innovations

(01:23:00) Bitcoin Core Governance and Community Dynamics

(01:37:00) Open Source Licensing and Community Contributions

[00:00:01] Unknown:

We're going to make it. If you wanna mine Bitcoin and you find the right place to do it, you can build your own power plant next to it. I mean, think about that for a second. You don't have to necessarily be on the grid.   Right? So and and you're gonna see this happen, which is   miners are going to put their   data centers on top   of gas fields.   Right? And then put a   plant right next to them so that they won't be beholden   to the drawing power and listening to all these stories about, oh, you're taking too much power, and now the cost of operating my refrigerator is higher and all the things we have to deal with now. What you'll see is the next generation of miners in America   will be able to control their destiny, control the cost of power, and I think that is going to turbocharge,   Bitcoin mining in America. And so the ideas for the investment accelerator   to help people, as an example, who have those kind of ideas. How do they get those permits? How do you execute on that plan? You call the investment accelerator, and we help you execute.  



[00:01:49] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here   for another Synod Dispatch, the interactive   live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   I already see ride or die freak, Rob Hamilton,   in the live chat, which you can find at sap.stream/odel   saying, Matt is a commie. Discuss 4,200   sats. Thank you for your money. I appreciate   it.   That intro was   our boy Frank Korva interviewing   our new commerce secretary   secretary of commerce, Howard Lutnick,   talking about off grid mining and how he wants it   to be made in America and and done here. But, you know, it's   something that many of us have heard for a long time, at least in Bitcoin circles.  

I'm very bullish on off grid mining,   particularly what the boys at Upstream Data and Giga Energy are doing, dropping storage containers on oil fields. But it kinda hits different when the commerce secretary   is talking about it. So that's why it felt like it was notable, and it should be there in the intro. Anyway, Freaks, as you know, dispatch is a % audience funded. We have no ads or sponsors.   It is supported   by the ride or die freaks who continue to donate and send sets to the show.   Because I'm a masochist,   I   run my own node to collect those sats donations,   and I discovered a few days ago that it was offline for a week.  

But you freaks still supported the show.   So thank you to,   JCB,   who is our largest contributor on Fountain Podcast, the Fountain Podcast app with 20,000 sets.   And as always, you can support the show in the live chat. We have Mav twenty one in there now   who just sent us 10,000 sets. Thank you, Mav. Ride or die.   Anyway, guys, I got a great show lined up.   Return guest, good friend,   founder of CoinKite,   NVK. How's it going, NVK?  

[00:03:58] NVK:

Coping, but good good day. Good day. What are you cope what are you coping about? I'm not gonna get into the politics, but but, you know, you asked how it was. So,   it's okay. It doesn't matter.   The states are a Bitcoin. We're moving on from a. The states are a. We're moving on from it.  

[00:04:16] ODELL:

He told me before the show he didn't wanna talk about the Canadian election, and then my first question, he responds with   the Canadian election. So, I mean, while while we're on that topic No. We're not on that topic. Moving on.   Okay. Down bad. Well, I will just say that,   I things seem to be going pretty pretty well in the in The United States.  

[00:04:40] NVK:

Yeah. I know. I mean, you guys you guys are, you know, you guys got president pump.   And,   you know, like, there is the pumps and dumps, but there is also a lot of good happening. You know? Like, it's a it's a business friendly environment. That's that's a huge fucking deal.  

[00:04:53] ODELL:

It's pretty interesting   because,   I mean,   per capita, Canada has always had,   like, a very, very strong   Bitcoin population. Like, your total population is much smaller than The US. But in terms of, like  

[00:05:11] NVK:

When Bitcoin started, it was about 33,000,000   people, and I would say, like,   most,   like, I I'd say, like, it was probably, like, first or second per capita   Bitcoin holdings and sort of Bitcoin businesses in the world when Bitcoin sort of was in the early days.   It was something, but they fucking pooch.  

[00:05:31] ODELL:

What I mean, so my question to you is why do you think Canadians haven't been able to politically mobilize in the way that  

[00:05:39] NVK:

Americans have? Because Canadians are communist, and it's over, and everybody left. That's it. Like, it really is that simple. Like, when when all the smart people, all the people who have a fight in them leave,   there's nobody else to fight. Right?   It becomes sort of like it's like the equivalent of brain drain for freedom.   It's like it's like California. You know? It's like everybody who could fight left.  

[00:06:03] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, California the one thing California still has going for it is that it's pretty. It's the weather.   So some people still feel locked in there.   Well, anyway, if,   I   we can get you an h one b visa. You can come run custody for my family. There you go. Bring it bring it into America.   Done.   Okay. Well, this is not what we're gonna talk about,   but, MBK brought it up because   he's coping pretty hard. And I guess the election was yesterday.   We're gonna be talking about I wanna, I mean, I think we should be talking about self custody in general. I mean, this cycle is an interesting cycle to me. It feels different   than   previous cycles in that   there doesn't seem to be, like, that much retail interest. Like, the average mom and pop   coming into Bitcoin   percentage wise seems much lower, and it seems to be much more   suit types   Wow.  

And bros that are, like, trading MSTR and stuff. Yeah. I'm sure you have opinions.   You're a man of many opinions.   So, yeah, let's let's start there. What's what's your opinion on that?  

[00:07:19] NVK:

Retail doesn't come to Bitcoin anymore.   Retail goes to to the to the equities, right, to the to the paper Bitcoin.  

[00:07:27] ODELL:

Alright. They're like the shit coins of the cycle.  

[00:07:30] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, I mean, you know, honestly, like, I I I rather people have MSTR than they buy, you know, SUSHI.   Yeah. Or Ethereum. Or SUSHI. No. I I don't know. I've moved two minds on that one. Like, on on the plus side, Sushi was a lot more   sovereign,   you you know, than MSTR is,   but MSTR pumps   our bags and gives Bitcoin more power.   So it's it's a tricky one. There's no good answers.  

[00:07:59] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, if you were gonna use a DEX,   like, one of these Shitcoin DEXs, you had to   know self custody. You actually   I mean,   because they were, like, account based models   Yeah. Fundamentally, there was a lot of differences there. But still, they had to understand managing private keys. They were in a much more risky environment. They were getting rugged left and right. Like, there was a lot of learning experiences that could be had. It was well people   and then some subset of those people. Right? You take, like, maybe 10% of the people that come in and get wrecked in salon the Solana ecosystem.   Then then they eventually come to Bitcoin.  



[00:08:37] NVK:

Right? That was even pre Solana. It was even more decentralized.   What?   The the Sushis.  

[00:08:44] ODELL:

Well, I think confused about that stuff. But, yes, that was I I'm not positive. One of them I think SushiSwap might have been the Solana 1, and then Okay. Ethereum had a different one that predated it. But I might just be wrong. I'm not positive.  

[00:08:57] NVK:

I mean, let's let's give them some credit. You know, Tornado Cash still, like, you know, very large pool of coin cleaning service.   Freedom freedom providing service.   I mean, Ethereum's getting wrecked right now, though. And, I mean, unless you're cartel level, you can't use MSTR to clean your coins.  

[00:09:20] ODELL:

I don't know how this conversation got to this point, but my question to you is, do you think   is there a path is there a path   for people that are   speculating on MSTR right now to actually go into self custody Bitcoin.  

[00:09:40] NVK:

Yes.   It's not the same thing. That journey look like? I I I have a feeling that   once people experience   a a proper Bitcoin pump, even if it's secondhand because remember, right, like, MSTR holders and I'm not talking about big funds holding MSTR. I'm talking about the little guy. Right?   Individuals holding MSTR,   they're gonna watch   for the first time between now and, you know, a little bit from now, a big pump on BTC.   Right?   And   and and and and I think they're gonna, like, look at the amount of, like,   bullshit they're gonna have to deal with with their brokers,   you know, to to maybe liquidate some of that and, like, you you know, like, now they have the capital gains in their accounts and everything's calculated for them.  

Or they have to leave   their country of origin and they're not able to because, you know, their their wealth is stuck in a broker.   And and I think they're gonna watch secondhand   a lot of the people who are self custodying,   like, talking about,   you know, their gains in real Bitcoin.   And, I think that might inspire them to wanna have some of that and be able to to jump on a plane and leave and do whatever they have to.  

[00:10:58] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I think there's gonna be some   I mean, you   like, there's there's there's no way that it's the number is zero that moved from   MSTR or MSTY   or  

[00:11:13] NVK:

21 or whatever It's not ideal.   But it's ETFs.  

[00:11:18] ODELL:

But it's gonna be a small I think it'll be a small number. I don't Yes. It's not it's not as ease like,   and I don't know   it's not as easy as someone who was in a shit coin and then moving to Bitcoin. At least that was fundamentally   similar,   and there is many mechanisms where you can swap your shit coins for Bitcoin really easily. You can't go to shit, but  

[00:11:43] NVK:

Yeah. Both MSTR   to be distilling.  

[00:11:46] ODELL:

Yeah.   But they're stuck. I mean   They're stuck. If the if the liquid bulls have their way, maybe one day, you'll just be able to move from your tokenized MSTR to   to Bitcoin.   So   two things. First of all, we have,   Raken in the chat, sent 21,000 sats saying, let Nick wants Bitcoin to succeed.   Discuss. Yeah. I   mean, I I think we discussed it already. B r k zap 21,000   saying open sats rules.   Thank you for your support.   It does And our resident shit corner,   Rob Hamilton, I knew he would know the answer to this question.   Uniswap was the ETH 1. Sushi   was the Solana 1. So we got was a 16 zed. Right?  

I don't know. They're like, all a 16 z has them they're in all this shit.   Okay. So   there's probably 10 people listening to the show right now that don't know what a cold card is.   Why don't   why don't you tell those 10 people what a cold card is and why it exists?  

[00:12:51] NVK:

Okay.   So computers   are not meant to hold secrets   as we all know. You know? You're you're there watching your favorite adult entertainment   in the same computer as you're doing your life   wealth,   managing.   Not a great idea to do it in the same environment, so we came up with with a device   that can do that separately   in a safe environment.   And,   that's essentially it. It's just a device for you to to do all your secret managing   outside of your computer.  

[00:13:32] ODELL:

So awesome. Okay.  

[00:13:35] NVK:

I think you made that unnecessarily complicated, but it's a way to securely hold Bitcoin. Matt, you are you are the podcaster here. I I am just, I am just, my podcast is not as successful as yours. So you you're the guy that can explain these things more clearly.  

[00:13:53] ODELL:

Thank you for that.   I   I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm stuck reading the comments right now. Thank you all for joining the live chat.   Kidwarp,   is watching on Nostor TV, which is a new Apple TV app.   So you can watch the Zap stream on your big screen television.   Feel like  

[00:14:18] NVK:

that's big development. Pub, fifteen sixty three said, cold card is where cypherpunk stored their future. I I like that.   It is very cypherpunky.  

[00:14:28] ODELL:

Where did he say that?  

[00:14:30] NVK:

I mean, maybe my comments are slower, but if you Oh, it's the it's Bugle. It's the Bugle.   Would you like the do you like the Bugle Boys?   They're they're funny sometimes.  

[00:14:41] ODELL:

I think I mean, I think they're great.  

[00:14:44] NVK:

Best journalist in the space. I mean, I really like your article about the the big bang.   Anyways, long story. Go ahead.  

[00:14:52] ODELL:

Coldcard.   So, I mean, I I think your explanation is partially because it started as a Bitcoin   hardware signer, a way for you to securely hold Bitcoin and interact with it.   And it's it's kind of   slowly iterated into more than that. Right? I mean, you you just mentioned protecting other secrets.  

[00:15:13] NVK:

Yeah. So so How do you think about that? So so that's   that's the thing. Like, the the premise really is the computer is unsafe. Right?   And,   you know, when you realize that and accept that you cannot have any secrets in a computer or a phone,   you're just, you know, asking for those secrets to leak   or at least privacy wise they leak,   then then   you come into this problem where, like, okay. Great. Wonderful. You know? Like, computer is not good. Okay. So then how do I   perform,   like, things that require security, right, like, in my everyday life? Right? Like, how do I, you know, store a very important password, or how do I,   you know, store some very sensitive information?  

How do I cosign with somebody else on the Internet? You know, how do I help a family member set up their environment for Bitcoin? You know, like, you sort of, like, start to, like, expand on that. And, you know, if the computer is not there, it's like, what can I, as as a maker of a secure environment,   you know, add in terms of features   to to help that happen in a secure   manner? Right?   You know, we travel a lot more these days. A lot of people are becoming sort of, like, stateless. Right? They're becoming sovereign individuals, and they're they're, like, around the world. So they can't just, like, you know, go on their their new rental house in some country and bury, you know, a a metal seed anymore.   You know, that that's   there's a lot more considerations at play. Right?  

So,   we we sort of, like, spend a lot of time brainstorming.   You know, how how can we improve   all these little scenarios?   And and how can you do that those   those sort of, actions,   remotely,   securely,   and with some privacy,   in adversary environments.   And,   you know, recently, we we launched the the key teleport feature. It's, I think, keyteleport.com,   for the website for that.   So for example, you can send secrets over a video call.  

[00:17:29] ODELL:

Yeah. Why don't you, go into that a little bit more,   how that works? So  

[00:17:37] NVK:

think about it this way. Okay?   You have you know the cold card is like a secure environment. Right? And I have one, and the person on the other side   just got one.   And   if we have two secure environments and we don't trust   the the middleman computer   or or the or the the pipes, right, in between us, can we create a secure tunnel between the two devices,   right, to send a piece of information?   And and that was sort of, like, the premise. So   with with key teleport,   say, for example, you know, on the on the proverbial ephemeral grandmothers that don't exist that everybody wants to serve in Bitcoin,   Let's say I have grandmother. Yeah. But but, you know, the Bitcoin grandmothers. Right? Like, we wanna set up a Bitcoin grandmother here with a with a harder wallet.  



[00:18:26] ODELL:

So Well, you know, the key there is we're just gonna have to age into being grandparents, and then grandparents will use Bitcoin. Exactly. It's just a it's just a time thing. But, anyway, continue. Grandma grandma wants to use Bitcoin. Continue. Exactly. Right? So you ship her a cold card from the store, right, or directly.  

[00:18:43] NVK:

She opens the bag. Right? She checks the number,   and she has a a Virgin sort of gold card in her hands. Right? She powers it on.   She clicks on the key teleport feature on that side.   You on your side   have two options. Right? Like, you you can either set up a gold card yourself   and just send her the backup   with all the settings, including the PINs and everything to her, and her cold card just boots into this new key that you already backed up for her. That mode's like a it's like I'm cloning a cold card, but instead of doing it in person  

[00:19:17] ODELL:

Yeah. It's remotely.   Or So in that situation, she's trusting me because I have   I have the secrets. I have the secrets. I have the secrets.  

[00:19:25] NVK:

You. There's in this scenario, we're sending her the secret. Right? Or, for example, say you wanna set up a bib 85 for her, right, off of your seed.   Yeah. You know, you can you can beam that to her,   and then boom. Her cold card uses that as the match the master secret. Right?   And now she's all set to go.   That's sort of like the Enco Gym kinda model. Right?   Or for example, let's say, you know, you have a decentralized   team. Right? Like, nobody has an office anymore.   And you need to send them,   for example, SSH keys to access a server. Right? You can do that.   Or password or something. Or passwords or Google Authenticator,   backups.  



[00:20:05] ODELL:

Right.  

[00:20:07] NVK:

You can send them like, really, like, any secret that's of reasonable size. Right? Like, it's Anything that's a text a text based secret.  

[00:20:15] ODELL:

Exactly.  

[00:20:17] NVK:

And and and it's a pretty it's kind of like a game changer. You know? Like, because there there was no good way of doing this before.   I mean, we spent, like, a good year trying to find a way of sending stuff to each other. We couldn't.   And, so we went and built it.  

[00:20:34] ODELL:

Wait. So   is there a mode where   so, like, forget about grandma because grandma   is just buying MSTR.   Grandmas don't exist.   Yeah. Grandmas don't exist.   But but I have a better example.   Like, my high school friends or my college friends that know shit all about Bitcoin except that I've been talking about it forever.   And   and they're not technical, but they believe. They're believers, but they're not technical.   Is there a way to use key teleport   for me   to do, like, a guided setup of theirs without having access to the secret   or no?  



[00:21:14] NVK:

Oh, so you don't want them to see the secret?  

[00:21:17] ODELL:

I just wanna do other settings for them and everything.   Yeah. You can. You can. But I don't I don't want the seed.   Right?  

[00:21:24] NVK:

No. There there is there's no. See, this is this is a a we don't have homomorphic encryption yet in in in the in the mathematical   universe.   So   we can't guarantee we can't prove that we deleted something or we didn't see something that we had.  

[00:21:42] ODELL:

There's no good way to But I'm not saying I'm not saying there's obviously still trust involved. Like, if I wanna scam them, I could scam them. But I'm Yeah. Is there a way Yes. Is because I haven't actually tested out the feature yet. Yeah. You can totally do it. So you you get a you get a a virgin one on your side. You set up you set up the seed. You set up all the things. Okay?  

[00:22:01] NVK:

Yeah. Set up the the settings and everything, and then you do a remote clone. And then you just delete from yours. And then I wipe? And then you wipe. Yes.  

[00:22:10] ODELL:

Yeah.   Okay.   That's reasonable.   You added this other feature too, this cosigning service. You wanna talk about that?  

[00:22:22] NVK:

Yes. So,   you know, most people who travel a lot and travel with needs of spending   a a decent chunk of cash,   in in BTC,  

[00:22:35] ODELL:

they Like anyone who has a family.  

[00:22:37] NVK:

You know, it's tricky. Right? Like, you know,   you can do with a passphrase,   but then it's not provably   that you, you know, you could get beaten into giving up the private the you know, giving up the the passphrase.   So   what what is like, multisig is great. Right? Because multisig is provable on chain.   Right? That is a multisig.   And   it's also provable who spent if you have more than one person involved. Right? Because you know which key was the signing key or which quorum was the signing quorum.   So we're like, okay. Great.   Can we get the secure environment, which is the cold card, to be a cosigner?  

Right? And we're like, okay. Great.   We can do that, but,   you know, is the person gonna have to travel to devices? I'm like, no. That just sounds retarded. Right? So we're like, okay. Can we put   one more seed into the device   under a policy?   So,   with cold card cosign,   what you can do is you can have   a two or three, for example,   and a single cold card would have two keys. One is the user key, right, your master secret.   And that one, you can sign any amount, right, because it's your seed.   The second seed, the cold card seed, is behind the policy.   And that policy can be, you know, the limit to send,   like, amount per day.  

You know, there's there's a bunch of it could be two FA authentication.   It could be a bunch of different policies like a normal HSM would.   And,   what's cool about that one is that you cannot circumvent that key   with your PIN.   You can't circumvent the policy.  

[00:24:32] ODELL:

So how do I change the policy?  

[00:24:34] NVK:

You have to give it the whole seed again.  

[00:24:38] ODELL:

The seed the policy seed?  

[00:24:40] NVK:

Yes.   Okay. So you leave that somewhere else. Exactly. So if you're traveling, you don't have the whole seed with you. You can't give it to the device in order to change   the seed policy. And if you have the seed while you have the seed, now the policy doesn't matter. So Right. It's a really nice the purpose.  

[00:24:57] ODELL:

Exactly.   So the cosigner is actually on the same dev it's the the cosigning key is on the same device. Yes. I sold the travel wallet.   And then, like, the third key is somewhere else   Yes. As well.   Yep. Somewhere secure, somewhere else. It's a backup PIN.  

[00:25:15] NVK:

Buried somewhere.   Right. Buried in your last Airbnb. A coworker. Right? Like, this is the cool thing about business.   It's like you can have a shared so, like, you can have two cold cards. Okay? Right. One of them has key a   and cold card key. Let's call that key c.   Okay? And then your co   b. B Yeah. And the same cosigner key, both of them with policy.   So now you know which one cosign  

[00:25:43] ODELL:

with their own keys, that code card But either either can spend according to the policy Yes. I will. But if they wanna rug the whole amount,   then they would need to ask their partner or whatever to sign. Exactly. So you can bypass it in case you need,  

[00:25:58] NVK:

for whatever reason. Pretty awesome. It is.   And the cool thing is you can use key teleport   to send that key to your coworker now to set up that code card key   remotely.   Got it.  

[00:26:13] ODELL:

So you could actually I mean, in   the in the grandma mode, you could   you could do this, and then grandma can't accidentally rug herself either.   Yes. Because she wouldn't she would need you. She would need you to sign with the third key. Yes.   So you could set up grandma's cold card so, like, she can only spend a hundred dollars a day or whatever. But, actually, it probably works better. It's better for kids. Right? Yeah. Kids, you could, like, literally set up a spending limit.   Well, I I know   I I I know your wife well, and I don't think she would tolerate that, but   I I know I know mine wouldn't.  



[00:26:52] NVK:

Mine mine is a very reasonable woman. She would probably say, please put this on the thing so that I don't get robbed.  

[00:27:01] ODELL:

I had a I had a buddy who you strike has,   strike has   real time transfers to bank account, like, just instant. Like, by the time you open your bank app, it's already in the bank account,   And his his wife discovered it and just instantly sold to the bank account. And he was like, can you ask Jack to slow down the process? It's going it goes too fast.   Got it.   Okay.   So those two new features are awesome.   Now   what this presents though is   it's interesting. So I love my cold cars. I think cold car is awesome.   I think at this point,   it's probably good to give the disclaimer   since we're   twenty seven minutes into the show   that MVK is a friend,   very close friend.  

He's a sponsor of Rabbit Hole Recap.   And, ten thirty one is the exclusive   external investor   in CoinKite besides him and his partner,   and one other angel, I believe.   We're the   we're the only fund that's that's invested in CoinKite. So   there's the disclosure, but that's also because I believe it's the best in class product. It didn't go the opposite way, but I'm sure there's people that will   expect that regardless.   Yeah.   I,   so I love cold. I I think it's   by far the best You've tried the Push TX. Right? You you've been using Push TX. Well, that's where I was going. So okay. So why don't you explain what Push t x is?  

[00:28:41] NVK:

So,   you know, like, all hardware wallets, all of them. Right? You load the transaction somehow in some annoying way, right, generally speaking.   And then and then you press sign you review on the screen or you press sign. Okay. All of them,   you know, you have to either plug on the USB   or you have to do the micro SD card or you have to try to show your   your cold card screen to the computer garbage camera.   I mean, it's a pain in the ass. Right?   Well, it's no. It really is. Like, you know, all of them suck. So that Yeah. You actually send Bitcoin transactions, it it it is a pain in the ass. I mean, like, for people who use it, you know. Right? So, like, so what we did is we we essentially, like, you know,   hijacked the the the NFC technology to just work in our favor here with a little hack where the cold card builds   a transaction URL,   in NFC,   and   with either mempool.space   or coldcard.com   or your own node, you just tap your phone and the transaction just goes.  

Like, it it just, poof, broadcast it. Right? So it it it is anybody who says that it's hard to use or how to well, it's hard to use. It's an absolute fucking liar because they just haven't tried   to scan a transaction on a cold card from Sparrow,   a press sign, and then tap their phone. Like,   it is easier and faster than logging in into online banking.  

[00:30:13] ODELL:

Oh, yeah. I mean,   Bitcoin really breaks every like, it breaks everything else. Because once you do it   Mhmm. It doesn't even matter if   if you think you might get better gains somewhere else. It's just the freedom to just No. But but it's so frictionlessly  

[00:30:29] NVK:

transact is You know, like, you try to look into your bank and, oh, now we don't believe it's you. Please send a text message to this. You type the fucking seg text message. You try to send this. There's a limit.  

[00:30:40] ODELL:

But so this is where my my question was going before you cut me off.   I,   I think the problem so in this flow in the Push TX flow is actually it's just very clean. This is how you can visualize it. You set up you set up the transaction in your app,   whether that's Sparrow on the computer or   or some mobile app.   We have we have friends working on Cove Wallet, which I think is gonna be great on mobile. But you set it up on app. You scan the QR code with   your cold   card, you press sign you check the details of the transaction so you make sure you aren't   getting scammed, you sign it, and then at that point, you just tap it to your phone as broadcast. Super simple UX,   very easy.  

Also, setting up a cold card, you can set one up without a computer. Very easy. Just, like, press go go go go go, and then, like, you have, like, a secure seat.   The problem is   and it I don't know if it's necessarily a problem. It's the reason I love cold card is that there's just so many different features and capabilities,   but there's there's a fascination. There's a there's, like, a an issue that people have in their heads that because there's so many ways to use it,   it overwhelms them even though there is effectively a simple mode. Like, they could just ignore all those features, and it'd be one of the easiest wallets to use. But because those features exist,   in their head, it's complicated. Is that We hide everything  

[00:32:07] NVK:

behind yeah, we hide everything behind advanced mode. But, like,   I think part of the problem with that is the like, a lot of our competitors,   they don't have the security. They don't have the features.   So what they came up with is this narrative. The code card is great, but it's harder to use,   you know, which is absolute fucking bullshit.   You know, like, it is actually easier. It's just that you don't have to use any of the features if you don't want to.   The it doesn't even present when you set up a code card, it doesn't even present you all the features. Right? Like, it it's all very simple on what's available. You have to go into advanced mode or something else in order to have access to those things.  

[00:32:50] ODELL:

But we believe  

[00:32:51] NVK:

in in having, like it's like it's like having, like, a a quality off road Toyota. You know? There's a lot of buttons there. You don't have to use anything.   It's good off the shelf. But, hey, if you get stuck in the mud, you press a button getting you out of mud, and it does.  

[00:33:06] ODELL:

I'm hearing your Apple notification   ring for what it's worth. It's my wife,  

[00:33:12] NVK:

telling me that they can hear me from from outside.   Amazing.  

[00:33:18] ODELL:

Okay.   For what it's worth, Freaks, I,   MVK requested audio only,   but I can see his video, and he's he's shirtless right now.   And I can confirm that he is moving. I see him moving.   Friks, if you have questions   for MBK,   put them in the live chat, and we will get to them.   I he does not appear like he's ready yet. I think he's ready. I'm here. I'm here. Is that a bathroom?   No.   He angled the camera up when I asked him that.   I   very nice. Very nice.   Do you think part of it is because you don't have an app?  

[00:34:10] NVK:

I I think   but the you know, so this is the problem. Right? The I've tried all the apps, right,   of, like, real hardware wallets,   not the, like, combination things or semi custodial, whatever. Like, I'm talking about, like, real.   And and it's actually not easier. Like, you know, like, say for example, Ledger, right, which is really is, like, the the the biggest selling hardware wallet in the market.   You know, to sync that device to the Bluetooth and all that shit,   like, it's not easier.   It's a narrative problem.  

[00:34:47] ODELL:

But, I mean, the ledger is   actually incredibly complicated to use. It's fair.   I mean, and part of the reason is that they have all the Shitcoin support.   I   saw in   I saw on your Nasr bio   that you say you have strong opinions loosely held.   I don't actually think that's true. I've never actually   I've you you seem to have strong opinions strongly held.   But one of your strong opinions   is   about,   the Bitkey.   So I'm kinda curious, like, what your thoughts are on their trade off model because I actually   I I think that's a perfect example of an app that is incredibly the the app really adds to the user experience on the hardware side. Like, it makes it really, really easy to use.   The setup is fucking flawless. Like, there's no way   that my high school friends will fuck that up. Like, I know that they won't accidentally wreck themselves if they do that.  



[00:35:51] NVK:

So, you know, disclaimer. I was, like, helping them like, giving them a lot of, like, advice when they were building it.   So so I think the problem is this.   It is not a sovereign solution. Right? Like, it is not a hardware wallet, and it was not originally advertised as a hardware wallet. You know? It is   a kinda like semi custodial,   noncustodial,   preparatory   system by a Pubco.   Right?   It it is incredibly   amazing system,   and and it's, like, a hundred x better than people having coins on Coinbase.   But it's not a sovereign solution. And I think, like,   the problem is,   you know, their marketing department   sort of, like, saw that, you know, maybe they need to use hardware wallet language, and they're gonna get beat up on that. It's not a hardware wallet. It doesn't have a screen.  

It doesn't talk PSVT.   You know, it's you have to use their app with it.   You know? They could fuck you.   There's privacy concerns.   The app, you know, can be open source, but you don't know what's running on the on the device I'm sorry, on the phone. You know, you don't know what's running on the servers.   It's it's like a pile of trust me,   which, again and I keep on saying this. It's like, it is a fantastic   improvement over Custodial Bitcoin.   And I think that if your choice is between Custodial Bekwoy and Bekwoy, absolutely get a Bekwoy.  

[00:37:27] ODELL:

Do you think it's it's   reasonable to consider it a a solid first device, and then you move on to something like a cold card  

[00:37:36] NVK:

Yes. But I afterwards?   But I can't I can't trust them anymore, their marketing, because that's not like, they literally are telling people to just go into that and stay on that,   which   is very unethical.  

[00:37:51] ODELL:

So, I mean, is that your so your biggest issue is messaging?  

[00:37:55] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, you know, like, if they get people off of that as soon as people are able to learn,   I think it's a it's a reasonable device for people to go to.   But, you know, what I see coming from them is the opposite of that. It's it's further   going into the space where it's like, look. We're a hardware wallet   and,   you know, and and, you know, like, sort of, like kinda like lying about the trade offs.   I think it's it's not a great thing. And, you know, as as you know, in in Bitcoin adversarial   environment for products and services,   you know, we call the bullshit out.  



[00:38:33] ODELL:

I that's the best part about Bitcoin.   We're our best critics.   Okay. That was a little bit of a tangent. But, I mean, I just  

[00:38:44] NVK:

What do you think about it, man?  

[00:38:47] ODELL:

I fucking love the big key. But, I mean, I think actions speak louder than words. I would never use a big key to hold my own Bitcoin.   But I love it as an onboarding tool. Like, I've been giving it.   I I gave a bunch as Christmas gifts. I was literally the first cheerleader.   But but the thing is is, like, I don't think I mean, I think the freaks understand this. Right? Because the the freaks are often in my similar shoes,   which is we want our friends and family   to   stay on bone stack sets. We want them to accumulate real Bitcoin.   And that's because we care about them, but it's also because in ten years, like, I don't wanna have to take care of them. I would I would rather them take care of themselves.  

And the trade off for that historically   has been   I onboard them to, like, a cold card or something,   and then I'm just   DDoSed with questions and issues   and con and, like, then they forget about it for two years. Bitcoin's up, like, 15 x, and they reach out. They're like, I just got rugged. I can't I'm they're, like, panic attacking. You know? Like, I'm, like, in the middle of, like   I'm, like, in the middle of family dinner or something, and they're like, I've lost all my Bitcoin just, like, straight panic attack. Right? The first thing you have to say is, like, take a deep breath. You're probably fine.   And then you, like, walk them through the whole process. Like, Bitkey fixes that. Like, I don't need to deal with   like, I'm pretty sure   like, you could be one of the dumbest people in the world,   and you could relatively securely   use Bitkey and never message me with questions or issues.  



[00:40:29] NVK:

So so here's here's where things start to sort of hit a snag.   It's,   first of all, now they just essentially never gonna learn   about Bitcoin.   Well, no. They might.  

[00:40:42] ODELL:

Yeah. But But it's more likely that if they own iBit  

[00:40:45] NVK:

Yeah. But Or you know? MSTR.   Yeah. But yeah. I know. Those people are sort of hopeless too. But but, you know, like, I don't wanna send people. If I'm actually sending someone to something, I want them to learn. Right?   The other problem is, you know, pub calls go away,   right, and it's a proprietary system. So you're gonna have to recover that in a secure computer,   and and people are gonna lose their coins that way.   You know, it's, like, it's very counter to the Bitcoin way of doing things to create proprietary systems   that are not interchangeable with other   Bitcoin vendors.  

It's a terrible fucking premise.  

[00:41:28] ODELL:

There's there's definitely a trust element   in terms of,   you know, I mean, not even just Block leaving,   like Block going out of business, but but them phasing out the Bitkey product line.  

[00:41:43] NVK:

Yeah. I mean, PubCo's get taken over by other companies all the time. Right? Like, I mean, if there is one thing we don't wanna trust, it's PubCo's. It's kinda like the point of billing.  

[00:41:52] ODELL:

But, I mean, from my point of view, I like, yes. There's trust there, but I do trust   that that team will have a if there was an exit, there'd be a graceful exit. Like, I don't think they would let it go, like,  

[00:42:04] NVK:

into complete chaos mode. I don't know, man. Like, you know, Twitter got taken over, right, like, in a in a flash, and then, you know, like, a bunch of products got   cut off. Right? Like, Google   phases out their products all the fucking time.   Right? Or they rug people in the products too. Google's Google's really bad about it. Right. No. But it's just, like, the point I think, like, the main point is this. Right? Like, we love the team there, and and and I think that's the wrong sort of, like,   way of thinking about it. It's like, I I like what they're doing. I like the team there. I think the problem that I have is this idea of   the trust   and and sort of, like, depending on that trust.  

If this is a long term device, it should be trust minimized.  

[00:42:50] ODELL:

But you don't think there's a a place in the market for  

[00:42:54] NVK:

Well, there absolutely is. That has more trust. Well, it absolutely is. I I I love the device in the market. I just think that they need to do a better job at pushing people away from it after they get the people on it. What if they had  

[00:43:08] ODELL:

what are your thoughts if they had, like,   if they released a more secure device   that The device is very secure.   That had, like, a screen and was more sovereign and moved people down a path. Would you be happier with that or PSBTs with seeds?   I mean, I don't know. I'm just  

[00:43:30] NVK:

it's it's it's not it's not effective having it. Matt. Like, security, I I think, is, like, the wrong sort of, like, a,   thing to bang on because, like, it's actually fairly secure. Like, they they did a very good job on on a lot of that.   The the trust it's it's the trust   and and and the the primitives are non interdependent   with other vendors.   So you're stuck Right. In your system.   And you have to make a single transaction out too.   Merge all the z t x cells into a single one to get out.  

[00:44:04] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, you have to well, not not necessarily.   I mean, you could send them individually. Right?   I I don't know. I think you have to consolidate the whole thing, the single transaction out on Sparrow to recover or something. Oh, the oh, the emergency break glass mode? Yeah. It's one single it's just one single transaction. They also don't have coin control.   But once again, I just don't think that's anyway, I don't think that's necessarily the market for I'm literally I have two BitKeys inbox right here, and I have two gold cards inbox sitting on top of each other. So I I think I just wanna reiterate. I love what they're doing. Like, that's not the point. The the point is just, like, the the messaging. It's not what they're doing.   Okay.  

Anyway, that was a long tangent.   Cold card queue. You so you have two main cold card devices.   You have the the queue and the m k four.   The m k four looks like a calculator. The queue looks like a BlackBerry.   Some of our listeners might not know what a BlackBerry is.   It was an old type of phone that existed on the show, man. Everybody is, older on your show. You don't have any young people who listen to it. No. No. No. That's just Marty. Marty is hating on the Zoomers. We have so many Zoomers.   I've after he did it too, I, like, I started   inviting Zoomers on the show and,   just,   like, many, many people blew up my phone. And a lot of them are I mean, the entire Bitcoin Policy Institute team is Zoomers.  

Everyone that works at Bitcoin Magazine Zoomers, you know, Dylan LeClaire, whatnot.   I think Mallers might be classified as a Zoomer. He's, like, close.  

[00:45:44] NVK:

I mean, he works a goodie.  

[00:45:46] ODELL:

We have many Zoomers among us. Arsh from,   HRF, he's a Zoomer. There's so many Zoomers. We have the best Zoomers. Format with, like, a third person. It's been entertaining.   I'm glad you like it. We're trying to spice it up after seven years of marriage.   Okay. So you distracted me. We have,   cold card queue, cold card MK four.   I guess some people think, like, it's just strictly the queue is the better device.   It's the same. Think of it that way. So what how do you how do you think about these two different  

[00:46:21] NVK:

products, and how should people think about them? So so think about the Q as, like, the,   like, the the bulky   guy with, like, lots of features, and then the Mark four is the same   architecture,   same security,   but it's, like, a lot more compact.   Right?   So,   you know, I I really like Mark four's for I lost you. I can't hear you now. Oh, could you hear me now?  

[00:46:48] ODELL:

Now I can hear you. That was weird.  

[00:46:50] NVK:

So   so yeah. So so the the Mark four is sort of like the it's the same architecture, same security as the Q.   The Q is sort of like this the bulkier device that has all the features. It has a lot of bells and whistles that can do a lot of things.   But because the mark four has the same security   and is nice and compact,   you can use the mark four for, you know, like,   things that you don't use every day or for backups or for key generation for other purposes.   You know, it's sort of like a a handier device. So, for example, if you have to stick, you know, in a safe deposit box or hide it somewhere, you know, you can have, like, five mark fours. They'll take, like, the, you know, the same space as maybe a queue and a half. You know?   So that that's sort of, like, the difference. The the devices are the same security.  

We like both of them.   The mark four also has the HSM mode. The queue doesn't.  

[00:47:46] ODELL:

Why is that?  

[00:47:48] NVK:

So   there's a bit of a memory concern. Right? As we add more features, there's a memory limitation.   Okay. But, also,   you know, the the queue is a is a device designed to be in your hand to do daily operations. Right? Where the mark four,   you know, is tiny. You can stick it inside the server,   and and you can use it over USB better, and and it's sort of, like, designed for that. So   that's that's sort of, like, the the breakout,  

[00:48:16] ODELL:

in terms of, like, how Is that the only feature that the mark four has that the queue doesn't have? Because usually it goes the opposite way. Right? Like, the queue obviously has QR codes   and a full keyboard.  

[00:48:27] NVK:

The mark four can show QR codes, but doesn't have a camera.  

[00:48:31] ODELL:

Right. It can't scan them. Yes.  

[00:48:35] NVK:

So is the plan to keep both of those form factors alive going forward? Or Absolutely. Yes. I we we love both. We use both on internally as well.   We we like to have the sort of, like, two paths, especially and we were very careful   on how we design it so that we could share the the cold base and not sort of, like, spread ourselves too thin with too much cold base to to audit.   The Mark four was sort of, like, you know, forged in battle.   Yeah. And, we wanted to continue with that architecture.   We really like it.  

[00:49:09] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I think,   I mean, I definitely use my Mark fours more   than my Qs.   I'm a Q guy   for most because they're I mean, they're smaller. They're just easier to  

[00:49:25] NVK:

It's like I don't know. Yeah. I just I really like the   the the the the trip the double a batteries or triple a triple a batteries. Yeah. I mean, that's a big difference.   I I I'm a fan of that.  

[00:49:38] ODELL:

But I I mean, I've now that you moved to USB like, I'm living a USB c lifestyle. Like, I refuse to have any products that don't have USB c, so it's like I can always find power for it. But the thing is, I'm that person who goes and scratches the USB line on my code cards.   Yeah. Fair enough.   Fair enough. I mean, I I think they're they're both very complimentary to each other. And I think it's really cool. The clone feature, I will just say,   the clone feature is awesome because you can   you can have just an MK four and a queue that are cloned on the same Yes. Same settings, same seed, everything. I mean, that that was for not them.  

[00:50:23] NVK:

Right? It's like, you know, imagine just how many cold cards we go through doing development,   how many we break and stuff. So, like, being able to clone devices   was kind of, like, a biggie one for us.   And and, like, having secure backups is really important.  

[00:50:41] ODELL:

That is probably the most important.   Do you see BRK?   He he sent us 21,000 sats earlier, so I will answer any question that he asks. He's asking if there's anything public about the MK five or the q two   that you wanna share.  

[00:50:55] NVK:

I mean, we're working on features right now. I I so hardware is always being worked on. Like, you know, we we end one, we start the next one.   There is no no timeline on mark five or q two at all yet,   so don't even sort of, like, bother too much with that in your head   because   so normally in hardware,   you are at the mercy of the lifetime   of the chips you use.   They they all have sort of, like, a end of life of, like, ten to twenty years, generally speaking. And then it becomes harder to sort of, like, get the chips and stuff. There's   you know, sometimes they release new ones, and they make it hard for you to get the old lens to move you to the new ones. It's all sort of like a massive logistics.  

But   the point is   the current design is really good   and and is really forged in battle. Like,   I mean, boy, these devices have been attacked and and, like, by left, right, and center, and and   they they've proven to sort of survive the needs we have.   And they're fast enough.   The chips are available enough.   They went up a bit in price, but they're still, like, economically viable,   that   we don't wanna change the architecture if we don't have to because changing the architecture means you open yourself for new bugs.   So   we wanna stick with this for a while.  

And even if we did a refresh of either queue or mark,   it would likely be on the same architecture.   It would just be for other reasons.   Well, like, the case would be different or something? Yeah. Case, screen, you know, NFC. So for some, Mark four could use better NFC. I mean, it's not as good as the Q. Right.   So things like that.   But,   I mean, like, there's so many devices on the market.   The mark four and the q, like, the amount of devices on the market is pretty insane.   So   we really wanna keep on supporting of, like, what's on the market and see if we can keep on adding more features, to this,   specific,   architecture.  



[00:53:12] ODELL:

That makes sense to me.   I wanna talk about,   the trick pins   a little bit.   I think it's sneaky   one of the best features   of cold card.   How do you think about, the trick pins?  

[00:53:32] NVK:

Yeah. So   that that goes back to our sort of, like, autistic way of looking at security. It's you know, we were like, okay. Great.   You know, you can have a pin. The hardware wallet   goes into operation.   But what happens   you know, if you don't want the hardware wallet to go into operation, then you have to type in the PIN.   And and that sort of, like, went into the rabbit hole of, like, how can we   have a lot of duress options?   And, and and the more options you have, you'll also create more plausible deniability.   So,   you know, we have the the brick me pin that was born out of me   having to cross a border   and having forgotten the device on me. So,   you know, I had to go and delete   the seed and then go trash the device and stuff, and I didn't wanna do that anymore. So in case that happen again, you can now break it.  

You know, there is the erase me. There is the the time out timer, super useful as well,   especially in office environments. You can have the device   sort of   give out a timer as you put that pin   before it lets you go into operation.   If you're familiar with banking   environments and, like, real physical safes, there's the delta mode.  

[00:54:53] ODELL:

Well, and but just on the on the timer, Freaks Yeah. If if power's cut, the timer restarts.   Just FYI.  

[00:55:02] NVK:

Yes.  

[00:55:03] ODELL:

We have we have Yeah. You're talking about delta mode. What's delta mode?  

[00:55:08] NVK:

So so delta mode is you essentially do the delta of the first PIN.   And what's cool about that is that that has a higher threshold of security on how the device works.   K. I'm not gonna get into the weeds on how the secure element works. But   on that pin,   we can do a few more interesting things   on on   and remain   fairly secure.   Like, that that pin   is not   as   susceptible to a a lab attack.   Not that you can get into the other PINs through the lab, but you cannot find out about that PIN.  

[00:55:52] ODELL:

Does that even exist? Exactly.  

[00:55:56] NVK:

And with that PIN, for example, we are able   to hide or erase   your seed vault   or your secure notes or your passwords   if you type that PIN. So maybe let's say, for example, you have a cold card that has,   it's a multisig, so you don't care if somebody, you know, forces you to get in. Right? Because you can't cosign.   Yeah. But   on that same device, you happen to have, you know, important SSH keys   or some secure notes,   or you have a seed vault of your grandmother's seed.   And,   what you can do with the delta mode is, you know, you can type in that, and it will   maybe display   get into operation mode, but you will   silently,   erase or hide   your,   your other things in the device.  



[00:56:53] ODELL:

And it can also erase   it can erase everything and then show a decoy wallet. Yeah.  

[00:56:59] NVK:

As if it was virgin  

[00:57:01] ODELL:

too, for example. You know, it can show virgin, brick. Which is the best because he raises massive I mean, like, if if someone you don't wanna you don't wanna show someone a brick device. You wanna give them a little something.  

[00:57:14] NVK:

Yeah. You can show your duress wallet. Yeah. Right?   And you you gotta you gotta make the guy's time worth it, man. He got off bed early that day to come to your house to try to rob you. You know?   He needs to live with something.  

[00:57:27] ODELL:

Yeah. I think that tricked me, Pinser. And part of it is because it's   I think part of it is because it takes a lot of personal responsibility to decide how you're gonna implement it and what scenarios you're gonna use it under.   And and then the I think the second issue is that people don't really wanna talk about it.   So Yes.  

[00:57:46] NVK:

We don't wanna divulge our little trickery on on air, but I I think that the main point is,   you know, like, Bitcoiners love to talk about zero sum sort of ideas and and, like,   one one idea fits all, sort of one solution fits all on Twitter. Yeah. But realistically speaking, you know, like, there is different threat models in your own life. Right? There is the evil maid.   There is the the evil family member.   There is the the, like, the the state actor issue. There is, like, many levels of different state actor issues.   You know, there is the   illicit illegal sort of try type threats   around you. So there's, like, all kinds of things. And   and having different responses for different scenarios that are more precise   are are very valuable.  



[00:58:37] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean and the fact that there's not a one size fits all already benefits you. Because if there's if there's a one size fits all, then the attacker also knows what that flow is. That's right.   Normally, it's the orange hat if you're, you're a Your ledger the the custom the custom ledger hat. So the freaks don't know. Ledger released a beanie. Or it wasn't even it wasn't a beanie. It was a,   like, a baseball cap that had a a little pocket for your ledger in it because that's the best place to   store your generational wealth is in a little pocket on your hat while you're at a festival.  

[00:59:14] NVK:

High vis large.  

[00:59:16] ODELL:

It blows my mind that they are by far the largest   hardware wallet provider. But It is a very secure device. Like, I mean, aside from the And they have built in staking support and stuff. It's the shitcoin stuff. Like, they have, like, really Yes. Which is one of the reasons why it's so complicated to use as a Bitcoiner,   is because they support, like, a thousand shit coins. Every time I see the just like   you can, like, stake on the device while you're using it. You know? It's like they don't just support it, but they don't do the bare minimum, like, MVP support.   They, like, actually  

[00:59:51] NVK:

full on hardcore support, Jet Coins. Rob is using his cold card in his sauna hat, he says.  

[00:59:59] ODELL:

Well, I I mean,   Rob is the   the caricature   of someone who uses his cold cards in the most complicated way possible. So I presumably,   it's not a single sig. It's got some kind of time lock on it. He's our best,  

[01:00:15] NVK:

best supplier of mini script vaulting accidents. Yeah.  

[01:00:19] ODELL:

Only   only only go into the sauna with your cold card if it's insured by Lloyd's of London.   I,   where was I going with this?   I mean, another piece is that Ledger is sold in   Best Buy, which I think is kinda cool. So is Bitkey, by the way.   Yes. Bitkey is not sold in New York, though, because of the BitLicense.   So not in New York Best Buy. That is absolutely insane.   Yeah. That's completely retarded. I have actually shipped BitKeys   to New York friends,   because they they can't even buy them on they can't even buy them online and ship them to New York. Anyway, whatever. I digress.   Best Buy.  

Cold cards in Best Buy. What are your thoughts on that? Didn't know.  

[01:01:06] NVK:

Why?   I mean, you know, I I know as a as an evil VC, you'd love to see that. But   but,   no. I mean, like, listen. We are in in It has nothing to do with me being an investor. I'm just I'm just teasing. Which I'm quite proud of. Yes. They they are a non controlling investor. It's it's it's, so you guys don't have to worry about that.  

[01:01:33] ODELL:

No. It's just Yeah. Everyone telling me to change NVK's loosely held opinions. That's right. I have no I have no influence over him. Remember, contracts reflect my way of being in general too.  

[01:01:46] NVK:

So so, anyways, the the   we're an independent shop. You know? We make a high quality device that that you know, it's very specific and opinionated in how it's done.   And and I I don't believe it's compatible   with Amazon or or this mass market stuff. Like,   you know, mass market is not gonna open up Sparrow. They're gonna expect,   you know, like, a a beautiful app that that, you know, like, maybe has a copy of your seed for you.   You know? Like, it's like the backdoor as a service the ledger launched. You know? That's what the market wants, that kind of market.   And,  

[01:02:25] ODELL:

you know, I I You could you could do Best Buy in a reasonably secure way.  

[01:02:30] NVK:

No.   No? No. I I don't I don't think it's possible. Like, once you cross that threshold of volume,   distribution,   the the   doing   the level of,   of supply chain defenses that we do gets tricky.   I mean, listen. If if people are willing to spend a lot more money, anything can be done.   Right? But   I think I think we're in a sweet spot with that.   You know, you're getting a level of security that should cost probably 10 times more than it costs now.  

[01:03:08] ODELL:

I like that. Are we gonna raise the price?  

[01:03:11] NVK:

No.  

[01:03:15] ODELL:

So in terms of I know you don't,   I know you'd you're very,   you you don't like sharing you don't like sharing numbers.   And I'm not asking you to share numbers. But,   from, like, a trend point of view,   in terms of us talking about growing self custody usage,   how what what have you seen in terms of cold card sales? Like, is So Are is is self custody increasing? Are we trending in the right direction?   I think How do you what do you see?  

[01:03:55] NVK:

So,   we we doubled   the size   of the revenue, I'd say, in the last eighteen months or so,   give   or   take.   So so that's something. I mean, cold card queue and mark four sold more than all the other cold cards we ever sold   combined.   You know, by my own sort of calculations, we're about, like, what, like, the third largest   manufacturer of hardware wallets.  

[01:04:31] ODELL:

But, you know, it's that's great. Ledger, Trezor,  

[01:04:34] NVK:

Coldcard? Yeah. But I think there's a decent gap between those two and us because we don't have the shit coins. Right? Well, there's probably, like, a big gap between Ledger and Trezor and then a big gap from Trezor to cold card. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That that would be a very fair assessment.   You know, not having the shitcoins does preclude us from selling, like, substantially more.   Because, like, see, a a lot of people are not even gonna use a lot of the shitcoins,   but it's part of the checkbox list   on when the the more mainstream kind of influencers are are sort of talking about heart of wallet, they're like, oh, but, you know, gold card is great, but it doesn't support the shitcoins. It's like we're like, yeah. They always have they always have one shitcoin.  



[01:05:15] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[01:05:16] ODELL:

They don't want a thousand shitcoins. They just they have their favorite shitcoin, not shitcoin, and it needs to support it. Exactly.  

[01:05:24] NVK:

And what's funny is that, like, a lot of people don't really use their hardware wallets for Shecoins because they're still trading them, so they keep them on exchanges anyways.   But the thing is, to be fair to the Ledger guys, is that they make trading very easy for the Shecoins within the app.   Right. And,   Trezor too. I mean, they they have their own Shecoin   brokerage inside of the app.   Yeah. I mean, like, listen. It's like   I I think there is always   gonna be a ceiling   on hardware wallet sales for Bitcoin only that's gonna be a factor of the Bitcoin   phase of the wave,   and not   doing the the SharePoint stuff. I mean, we we but we don't care. We we, you know, we like having a business and growing the business, but, like,   you know, sales numbers is not the thing that I wake up and give a shit about it every day.  



[01:06:25] ODELL:

But so do you I mean, the question was   I mean, look, we both know CoinKite's in a very good position,   revenue wise. I'm I'm   the the question is more, like, how do do you think that we're in a good position as an ecosystem self custody wise based on your knowledge of internal numbers?   Like, do you said Yeah. So so wake up in the morning and you're like, talk. We need more people to self custody Bitcoin, or you're like, we're in a good spot. We're doing well.  

[01:06:56] NVK:

The people that buy corn self custody it. Grandma is buying a hundred bucks worth of Bitcoin. You know? Grandma doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. Like, we don't care. Like, reality is, like, you know because we get the emails from people who have corn and are self custodying and are asking questions when we have firmware updates. So, like, we engage a lot with our user base,   and it's a large user base.   We can see that. We can see the amount of numbers that go up when the Bitcoin price goes up, and we we can see the questions that come in.   So these are not, like, LARPing   people. It's it's you know? I think the people who have corn in any significant   numbers are self custodying it.  

That's that's like a   it's it's a we are in a very good place, I think, self custody wise in Bitcoin.   I don't think   people who have the capacity and are not traders   are not self custody.   Traders don't give a shit.   No. Traders never gave a shit. That's But they are a large part of the Huddl. Right?  

[01:08:02] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, and some of them have a they have a Huddl stash, and then they have their trading stash. Right? And it's it's separate.   So Joe is asking,   he asked a question, in a decade, what percent of Bitcoiners will have Bitcoin in self custody?   I wanna change the question a little bit because of exactly your carve out for,   I don't know, people that have negligible amounts,   which it might not make sense for them anyway.   So in a decade, what percent of Bitcoiners do you think,   that have   price exposure to more than one Bitcoin   or holding Bitcoin in self custody.  

I feel like that's a better question. I mean, in a decade, maybe now we're just talking about whether they're, like, worth, like, $10,000,000. I don't know. I mean, it sorry. I mean, decade in Bitcoin, it's, like, almost double the age of Bitcoin right now.   Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a years.   Yeah.   What I mean, so so back to George's original question. Like, what does success look like to you? If we're in ten years in ten years, what percentage of Bitcoin is using self custody   is success?  

[01:09:14] NVK:

I think this trend is gonna be linear.   Right? So so the self custody is gonna always be sort of playing catch up with the new   acquisition of Bitcoin.   So   I think we're gonna be in a good place. I think we are in a good place. I I don't have a number for you. Percent?   Maybe. Yeah. It could be five. It could be 10. It could be 20. Like, it's impossible to know. That's the beauty. Right? And and the better people would you not fucking guess. I'm not gonna guess.   Sorry.  

[01:09:51] ODELL:

No. Yeah. I'm sorry, Jory. You didn't zap enough. You didn't zap enough. Zap a little higher,  

[01:09:57] NVK:

and I'll try to guess.   No. I mean, it's kind of a pointless exercise. Right? Like, remember,   it's very similar to when, like, you know, like, when you hear, like,   startups come pitch Bitcoin companies to you and they say, hey. You know? Like, there's a hundred million Bitcoin users in the world self custody. There aren't.  

[01:10:15] ODELL:

No. There aren't.   So How many people do you think there are   right   now?  

[01:10:25] NVK:

Two,   Neil.  

[01:10:29] ODELL:

Okay.   That's probably a little bit high.  

[01:10:33] NVK:

No. I I think we've got there.  

[01:10:35] ODELL:

How many people do you think hold self custody Bitcoin   over 1 Bitcoin right now?  

[01:10:47] NVK:

I'd say at least half a million people.  

[01:10:50] ODELL:

No way.   Over Bitcoin? Over 1 Bitcoin?  

[01:10:55] NVK:

Probably. Yeah.  

[01:10:57] ODELL:

Okay. Well, I I asked,   I asked the AI. The AI said hundred to 250.  

[01:11:08] NVK:

Yeah. Okay. Whatever. We can split the difference there. Say two fifty.  

[01:11:12] ODELL:

I mean, that's what I I think is probably around I've probably around there.   I don't I think it's way less than, like,   the yes. So you'd be okay. One Bitcoin's a lot.   It's like,  

[01:11:24] NVK:

Yeah. But there's 21,000,000   of them.  

[01:11:27] ODELL:

Yeah. But they're I mean That's busy.  

[01:11:30] NVK:

If you're there, you can hold more than one. Right?   And if keeps on selling, 90% of it be in, Michael Saylor's  

[01:11:37] ODELL:

hand. Yeah. BlackRock.   Okay.   What else do I got for you?   The freaks aren't asking very good questions in the chat, so I'm the host. Jor zapped 9,000 sats. Does that change your quest your answer?   Thank you for your support, Jor.  

[01:11:55] NVK:

Thanks, Jor. But we we answered the question in numbers instead of percentage.  

[01:11:59] ODELL:

What do you   what are your thoughts,   on,   Nostra hardware?   Like, hardware set like, will you ever release a hardware device that signs Nostra   messages?  

[01:12:17] NVK:

It's pointless.   Why? Like, because you you're gonna have to have the device hot. Right?   Like, every single interaction on master is signed.  

[01:12:29] ODELL:

Yeah. You can just tap your phone?  

[01:12:31] NVK:

Yeah. You're gonna tap your phone. Like, every like you have, you have to pull out the hardware wallet and tap it. What if I what if what if I don't wanna I don't like any posts? I just I just broadcast.   What do you mean?  

[01:12:45] ODELL:

There's use cases where someone   and let's say you're like Snowden. Right? You don't you don't necessarily need to like post or, like, engage with people. You just wanna broadcast or, like, your WikiLeaks or some shit. Yeah.   Yeah. I think Or even the White House. Like, the White House isn't liking people's posts   and, like,   zapping people. I mean, they're not a noster, but Okay. Even on an x, they're not liking people's posts and replying. All they wanna do is send out a message saying, you know, like, we're not going to war with Pakistan  

[01:13:15] NVK:

today. Okay. I'll consider that once we have, like,   say,   at least a thousand White Houses with that need.   A thousand? But there's not even that many countries. Yeah. But exactly. Am I gonna make a device for two people?  

[01:13:31] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, maybe.   I'd use it.   Okay. Fine.   Next question.   Fuck. I just had the question.   Goddamn it.   Oh, I wanna talk about   this ESP 32 vulnerability.   How do you think about it? And the block clocks use ESP 32.   Should we be concerned?  

[01:14:03] NVK:

Yeah. So ESP 32 is a fantastic platform,   for development   and for, you know, running Christmas lights and displaying the Bitcoin price.   It's like you get a lot of memory, a lot of processing power for very reasonable amount of, money, and it has a lot of IOs.   So that's kind of like a big deal if you're if you're building hardware.   It is a Chinese platform.   It is not designed for holding secrets.   Definitely not designed for holding secrets.   And,   so so when you have a platform like that, you know, it's extremely unadvisable to build secure systems around it.   You're gonna run into all kinds of problems   just because of the nature of the platform itself. Right? Like,   you know, if today's   vulnerability   is exaggerated or not, that depends on who you ask.  

But the reality is when you have an an an a non secure   platform or nonsecurable   platform,   you're gonna just be having those problems all the time. So just don't use them for Cardowalts.   Yes. BeMinder, it's great for that.  

[01:15:16] ODELL:

I mean, should we be concerned should we be concerned that   but so the bid access is ESP 32, so does block lock. Should we be concerned about it can being connected to our Wi Fi networks?  

[01:15:27] NVK:

You have bigger problems in your house. Like, you have Alexa.   You know? You have, like, fucking fans and fridges now connected to the like, listen. Your house Wi Fi is compromised.  

[01:15:40] ODELL:

Just assume that. So it's not gonna be, like, you know Okay. So, I mean, that was that was also my conclusion on RHR. So that I I was correct.   Yeah. Like, you're just or you're already fucked. That's the reason cold storage exists is because you you don't want your keys connected to to your Wi Fi. Don't don't use a platform like that for hard wallets. Use it for fridges. Perfect. And, also, like, don't have Alexa in your house. Just throw out the wiretap freaks. Don't have a Ring camera on your   on your front door.   Yeah. Rob Hamilton saying Matt needs end to end air gap to post good morning post. Yes. Correct. I think I think there's product market fit there. I mean, it could, theoretically,  

[01:16:22] NVK:

tap to, tap to to broadcast.  

[01:16:27] ODELL:

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Tap to broadcast. That'd be dope. Okay. Open it up. Type it on the keyboard. Tap to broadcast. Boom. Done. That'd be dope. It needs That'd be so awesome. So you need I need a separate NSEC for replying to people, but I just have one that I just use for broadcasting.  

[01:16:45] NVK:

Okay. So it's gonna need to you probably have to be on the Edge firmware,   because of Schnorr.   Yeah. I have to look into it.   I mean, I'm sure it'll be a great demo, and there'll be just one user. But yes.  

[01:17:03] ODELL:

And there'll be there'll be at least that looks like by the live chat, there'll be at least five of us.  

[01:17:09] NVK:

We'll be very vocal about it. I wanna see a picture and a video of you doing it every time you do it.  

[01:17:15] ODELL:

I mean, no. It does actually like,   Yeah. I will I will I will loudly let people know that I'm I'm doing it. I will just say that, like, my end sec right now, like, I have been quite careless with it.   It's, like, the exact opposite.  

[01:17:35] Unknown:

Is that fix it.  

[01:17:37] NVK:

What? Frost. Like, some of the Frost solutions might fix it.  

[01:17:42] ODELL:

Yeah. And maybe there's a hardware signer component to that. No?   Like, a multisig setup where, like, some of my keys are tapped to sign?  

[01:17:51] NVK:

Yeah. But then might as well have, like, multi app sort of, like, multi device sort of resolving a lot of that.   It's just not there yet. Like,   I I think we I think we just need better primitives on on Noster. Right? So, like, because it's on Schnorr, like, technically, you could do frost or whatever. Like, once we sort out primitives,   we can sort out, like, then what the signers need to look like.   Ideally, it will be fun to bypass the need for for custom hardware for Nostra.   But we're gonna be on the edge firmware just for you, man.  

[01:18:31] ODELL:

Okay. Thank you. Is is Satslink still gonna happen,   or what's the deal with that?  

[01:18:36] NVK:

It it's brutal. It's it's on the bench.   I think you've seen some, some private previews.  

[01:18:45] ODELL:

Yeah. I keep asking you questions that I know the answers to, but I'm being good.  

[01:18:49] NVK:

It's it's pretty it's pretty brutal. That's the part that most people here don't understand about, like, you interviewing me is very difficult.   You know, we're both, a host of very successful podcasts.   It's true.   And, we both do business together. So and Matt,   you know, doesn't wanna divulge his specific,   security   details.   So it makes it very difficult.  

[01:19:16] ODELL:

But What we do for you freaks?  

[01:19:18] NVK:

It's good. I completely got out of having to explain,   Satslink.   So is it gonna come out or no? Yeah. We want it to happen. It's just we we don't have the bandwidth. We're we're just like it's like one of those products that's just sitting on the bench,   like, you know, 70%   complete.   We just we just can't find the time to finish it.   So we gave people That would be the perfect refunds.   People got, got a chance to convert, at a at a discount,   to a discounted queue and stuff. Most people did.   But, you know, it's there. You know, we hope to find the time to do it. It's just it's just hard. We're small shop guys. We we we really are for development. Like, we don't we don't want to grow in that sense and spread ourselves thin, and the security of your coins are more important than,   than sending Nasr notes.  



[01:20:13] ODELL:

I mean, because SaaSlink would be perfect for the Nasr site. Yes. Because then you wouldn't even have to do it. You just ship the device and let someone else build it. I mean, it'll be great for lightning too.  

[01:20:22] NVK:

But, but here's the thing. On on the continuance   of my new, GitHub tag internal tag called fuck the computer,   we we are looking at ways to bring in UTXO data to cold cards so that you'd be able to have your TX so you can do your coin selection in your cold card,   build the transaction with the cold card, sign it, and then broadcast it. So you don't even need a computer from How would you do that?   There there is a few ideas rolling around internally. We're we're not quite there yet, and, like, decision on how it's gonna be done. But,   essentially, there'll be a a very quick way for you to,   pass on, say, for example, TX hashes   to,   like, an API, right, similar to how you do push TX.  

Then you get the UTXO   state   of those,   TX hashes,   kinda similar how Electrum,   checks your coins. Okay?   And then and then the cold card gets that that information back as a QR.   And now you have your coins on your cold card,   and you select them and you spend them.  

[01:21:35] ODELL:

You set your fee and everything. The cold card the cold card gets the state via QR code in this situation?   Yeah.  

[01:21:44] NVK:

Got it. Yep. And then, and then they assume spent. And then you can refresh that state once again whenever you want.  

[01:21:53] ODELL:

I just wanna let, Rob Hamilton know that I've brought him up too much in this episode considering he hasn't zapped at all yet. So he will not be   no more comments about him going forward.  

[01:22:09] NVK:

Oh, yeah. The the also, so Rob wants to bring up the pod that he shows up often. That's that's why. He's your he's your cohost now. Right?   No. I mean, like,   Bitcoin. Review is, is where   Rob comes,   Ringdell comes. Odell,   is is overdue  

[01:22:27] ODELL:

is overdue. I got invited.  

[01:22:31] NVK:

What?   You're always invited. It's an open door, for for Matt. Matt is, one of the original,   frequent   guests.  

[01:22:44] ODELL:

You see Rob? I zapped at the start. I was the first zap.   Yeah. He did zap.   I was sorry. It's too low to show in the leaderboard, so I forgot about it. Shit.  

[01:22:54] NVK:

It's 4.2  

[01:22:55] ODELL:

k. Show.   And it's a good show. I use it, to help my son sleep.  

[01:23:00] NVK:

It is literally the purpose of it.  

[01:23:04] ODELL:

Do you have an opinion before we wrap here, do you have opinion on,   the recent,   Bitcoin core scandal?  

[01:23:13] NVK:

So we do.  

[01:23:16] ODELL:

The removing the opportune   limit,   and how it was handled  

[01:23:22] NVK:

when they get home? It's a fucking disaster, man. Like, I I I've I've tweeted before that I'm losing my faith on core.   This is normal. Like, most   large open source,   projects start to become a a fucking disaster in terms of, like,   governance and   and,   and and and discussion level and stuff.   I think a lot of people there lost the plot,   but   there's a lot of good people there. There's a lot of good people who lost the plot.   There is it it it's it's a very difficult place to be in. Right? Like,   it's like, very anarchic. It's,   voluntary.  

It is, in many cases, unpaid.   Although   a lot of if not most of them nowadays have very good grants.   And there is a lot of, power trips that happen as well.   It's a nerd environment, so people have strong opinions.   Strongly held. Being strongly held. Mine are loosely held. I I changed my opinion. I changed my opinion.   Yours.  

[01:24:33] ODELL:

When was the last time you changed your opinion on something?  

[01:24:36] NVK:

Oh, Jesus, dude. I change my opinion every day.   I feel like I argue with you on a daily basis about things you don't never change your opinion on. Yeah. But that's because you're wrong. That's that's that's a different problem. That's a you problem, not a you problem. So but on the so so you have concerns about core. Like, what are the solutions? Do you have solutions? Or No. There is no the the solution is you don't need to update. Bitcoin is the solution. Bitcoin was designed, so it's backwards compatible, and you don't have to update.   Don't update your note.  

Stop updating   and be the change you wanna see. If you wanna fucking fork their GitHub and and, like, start a new core, do it. Like, who cares?   Add add add like, be a fucking punk.   You know? Like, I'm not saying I'm gonna like that you're being a punk because whatever the fuck you probably do, you're gonna piss me off too.   But, like, you know, like, it's, like,   it's, it's just the way it works.   I think a lot of people,   on core are good hearted, are well intended,   but many don't run a business. Many don't don't have to deal with transactions every day. So so there's a lot of make work projects there.   There's a lot of, like,   Yeah. It's just you know, it it's normal. I mean, like, because, you know, Bitcoin in its core,   no pun intended, works. Right?  

So so people find   efficiencies,   to work on, and then they also try to push on their personal preferences. And everybody has their own personal preferences, and and, you know, it's just gonna be like that. Just who gives a shit, man? Like, honestly, like, I don't even look at the fucking mailing list anymore. You know? I haven't updated my note. I don't look at the mailing list. It works. I don't care.  

[01:26:23] ODELL:

It's true.  

[01:26:24] NVK:

That's the power of Bitcoin. What do you think, Matt,   of this receipt?  

[01:26:32] ODELL:

I mean, I think, ultimately, in this particular situation, like, users should be able to choose,   like, what their node relays.   I don't think it really affects things anyway. It's not a consensus rule.   Minors can just include whatever the fuck they wanna include.   And have been.  

[01:26:52] NVK:

So Why they have?  

[01:26:54] ODELL:

I think   I think the, quote, unquote, moderation or censorship depending on how you count it in the actual,   merge request   thread on GitHub in the repo   was incredibly poorly handled and probably should've just never been done in the first place. Like, that just creates controversy for no reason.   I kinda resent that technical Bitcoin conversation is still happening on x,   but that'll probably just take some time.   But, yeah, I mean, I I I I think   what a lot of people   I I I I think that us   deify like, I'm very grateful.   I'm very grateful for the people that we have working on Bitcoin.  

I think there's a timeline where we don't have these people, and it's the single most bullish fundamental for Bitcoin.   But at the same time, like, we shouldn't be deifying them. And there, you know,   there should be ridiculous. Right? They're people. Friendly adversarial   thought. Yeah. No one's a gene you know, no one's, like, above criticism and and   and,  

[01:28:08] NVK:

Except for Maxwell.   Just kidding.   Yeah. I mean, like and I think drama. There's a lot of, like, people dynamics too. Right? Because there's a lot of people who used to be way more relevant. They wanna stay relevant, so they just offer bike shedding opinions on shit just to be participating in fucking you know, it's just normal people shit.  

[01:28:29] ODELL:

Dude, that's life. Life is people shit. Like, everything's a people thing. You know? Business is a people thing. Family is a people. Everything's a people thing.   Yeah. Open source is no different.   So we have,   Rob decided that he was actually gonna zap. So he's he's now   officially the top zapper with 30,000 zaps. So Wow. Peer pressure works. So I guess that's recent   well, I you actually get a reverse of a cut because he's he's being a little bit of a dick to you. So I asked him when he was gonna open I asked him when he was gonna open source   when he was gonna open source Trident wallet Mhmm. Anchor Watches, Trident wallet.  

And he has says he has no plans to open source it. He defended his decision.   He said if he does open source it,   he won't fully open source it. He will do your license, the MIT CC license. I mean, technically, it's the Redis  

[01:29:24] NVK:

license. The the Redis. The what?   Redis. It's like a very famous database.  

[01:29:31] ODELL:

Okay. So you didn't invent it. You you cloned it from someone else. Oh, absolutely.   Why why   and we've we've we've talked about this a million times.   But since he brought it up and since he paid good money to bring it up,   why did you change why did you change the cold card's license,   to commercially restrict   usage of it? Because  

[01:29:58] NVK:

we like to fuck with assholes.   That really is it. Like, I mean, like, you know,   there is people   who who take advantage of   the commons,   and that's true. For example, you know, you know my opinion. I think GPO is a checkpoint,   and, you know, uses the state the same way that that other licenses that are restrictive use the state.   And but at the end of the day, for example, with, like, say, BitX right now. Right? Like, China doesn't give a fuck about licenses.   The like, big markets don't give a shit about licenses.  

[01:30:37] ODELL:

So BitX is BitX is GPL,   but China just so GPL says that if you use their code, you have to keep it open source, any derivative projects,  

[01:30:47] NVK:

and China just took it and closed sourced it. Yeah. I mean, that happened to us. Right? So the people who clone our our devices, they they took our code, and they didn't make it open until much later.   And they never contributed back either.   So, you know, like, I'm I'm like, you know what? So fuck you. I'm gonna fight back the way we can, and, you know, we did that. We for us, the most important thing is, like, can I protect the users from myself,   right, which is part of the the defense model of the cold card?   Right. And in our license, we do that. Right? It's very,   very,   generous to the user. The user can do whatever they want.  

The only restriction that we have is if they try to essentially have a competing business with us,   and then we get to fuck you. So,   I think it's a very fair license in that sense.   Hardware and, like, software,   you can't   sell it twice. Right? Like, you you make the the the money on that unit sale.   So, you know, I can't just go LARP like all the Pubcos do about, like, the fossil wash everything. Right? Oh, look. We're open sourcing this. We're open sourcing that. Why, like, 90% of their shit that actually makes money is all closed source.   Yep. Like, very close.  

So, you know, we we don't get to LARP because part of our security model is the source being available to the user,   in its entirety. Right?   So so that was the solution we found.   And it worked. And people are okay with it, and our users   are fine with it. And,   and it works.   I think in Rob's case,   you know, it's not too dissimilar.   I think they they built a a decent chunk of IP there.   I think a lot of people asking them to to open source it are asking just because they don't wanna fucking do any work themselves,   which is often the case.  



[01:32:41] ODELL:

I mean, but that's not my ask. I mean,   I mean, my argument with   since since Rob brought it up so we're it's not like it's not like we're talking behind his back. He brought it up. My opinion is   is that the real defensible moat and also as an anchor watch investor, the real defensible moat for anchor watch I'm also an anchor watch investor.   Every case is a quiet angel in a bunch of businesses.   The the moat is the Lloyd's of London relationship. Like, you can't fork a Lloyd's of London relationship. You can't. You absolutely  

[01:33:18] NVK:

it's gonna happen.  

[01:33:20] ODELL:

But it's the it's the insurance aspect is the actual like, that's the business. Like, at the very least, I mean, they should be   now we're moving the goalpost. They should at least be MITCC   so people can verify what's going on in the software stack.   But I think that's   his business is one of those where you could get away probably with going full MIT  

[01:33:43] NVK:

and then having the mode on the service side. Hey, Rob. That is not bullish enough on Trident.   What?   It's the mode. It's fantastic piece of software.  

[01:33:54] ODELL:

Okay. Fair enough. Well, I'm glad you're I'm glad you're so bullish on my investment.  

[01:34:01] NVK:

No. I I, you know, I have a feeling that, like, you know,   when when he makes business sense for Rob, he'll probably like, maybe maybe even becomes fully open. Right?   It's hard for a start up, and and we have to to be   graceful with   young   startups and let them do their thing without too much of the the people bullshit.   Because, you know, like, in a startup, like, you know, like, you're gonna pivot 50 times. Right? You you don't know what's gonna be the most. You don't know Yeah. How things are gonna play out. So so, like, let them be and let them build their business,   without all this calming influence.  



[01:34:40] ODELL:

No. I mean, I agree.   I I definitely,   do not tell founders how to run their business.   I do have strong opinions strongly held, but, I don't Oh, I never thought of that. Their business.   And, I think,   no matter how you cut it, it's impossible for an investor   communist recommendation considering they're a fucking investor in the business.   But   I digress.  

[01:35:10] NVK:

Like, you know, I think yeah. So so,   you know, I I think it's it's, it's nonnegotiable.   The protocols must be fully open source. Like Right. Free as free as in in freedom, open source. Okay? Like, protocols must be fully open source. There there is no it's nonnegotiable.   It's Ignoster, Bitcoin,   you know. And it's not a fucking bullshit GPL. It's actual MIT.   Right? Right. So people can No restrictions. Exactly. People can take that code and go in private and do their own solutions. Otherwise, things never take off. You cannot have a protocol that's GPL. It doesn't take off.   Okay?  

Now   the stuff that's running on top of it,   as long as it respects the open layer, right, with open standards,   with with open ways of of resolving things,   then then then we're in a good place. I mean, is it nicer that there is a lot of free open source out there? Absolutely. You know, we do a ton of it, contrary to, some of the haters.   You know, we we actually are partial to making things public domain when they are open source.   And,   you know, it's just it's just sometimes the business requires,   you know, some less nice thing in order to exist. But what you rather have, that business existing or not having that piece of software?  

[01:36:35] ODELL:

Fair enough.   What is   your response   to,   while we're on the topic, to individuals   that might say,   your choice   to,   commercially restrict the license   of cold card,   is a conflict   with your participation on the board of OpenSats where we fund   FOSS projects.  

[01:37:09] NVK:

So what is it? Like, 95,   90 nine percent of all the money comes from non   open source profit?   What do you mean? Is the money a conflict?   Like, the source money. So so all the money that comes   into   funding open source comes from not open source   business.   Right? So the people who profited from non open source businesses   donated all that money to be open source. I'm donating my fucking time   to that, and I probably contribute more to open source than most of the people who LARP and complain about it. But let's not even get into that. No. I mean, I was I was just giving you I was giving you an opportunity to defend yourself while you're on,  

[01:37:55] ODELL:

you know, one of the most listened to shows in Bitcoin. It is probably the most listened to show. I I will just say I will just say that,   you're I mean, adding you to the board of open SaaS was massive win for us. Like, you're such you have so much experience in the space.   You have very strong opinions.   You actually do the work and the review, and,   I mean, I'm I'm incredibly grateful to have you on the team. Like, I we could not do what we do   at the scale that we do it.   Listen. I I think there's just giving you the to be able the opportunity.  

[01:38:33] NVK:

I really feel privileged to be on there and be able to to do the work there. It's very important work,   and it's,   it it really is a privilege to be able to to, you know, have tens of millions of dollars to, like, fund   fund people who are gonna go do the work without having to restrict their licenses.  

[01:38:55] ODELL:

Exactly.  

[01:38:58] NVK:

It's pretty cool to fucking see. Yeah. People should really apply more. We we need more applications,   especially privacy applications.  

[01:39:07] ODELL:

Donate more. Opensats.org.   If you wanna apply or donate, we could always use more donations. It all goes into Bitcoin.   It all it's all held in multisend.  

[01:39:18] NVK:

$0. It's the most sort of, like, retarded   org in the universe. I don't think there is any other, like, that this scale,   fully pass through organization.   We only get headaches and joy. We get, like, zero money.   There's no money in T shirts. We have no T shirts.  

[01:39:38] ODELL:

Yeah. No. I mean, jokes aside, we have a separate operations budget, but it's very it's very lean, and you have to donate to that operations budget specifically for us to have that. We take zero and and in the a world of many scam charities Yeah.  

[01:39:52] NVK:

I think it's a breath of fresh air. We cannot buy hats with the logo from the main fund. That's howling it is.  

[01:40:00] ODELL:

Yeah. We should have hats, though.   How about hats? Donate hats to us? Some hats. I'll fund hats Yeah. Myself.   Yeah. That's I just started printing my own merch now.  

[01:40:13] NVK:

Welcome to the club, Matt. I think million better than you just do yourself.  

[01:40:18] ODELL:

I think million is,   like, he's half proud, half resentful that I just print primal shit.   Just like walk around the skills  

[01:40:29] NVK:

are, like   Questionable?   I I would say, like, there is a lot of love in what you  

[01:40:45] ODELL:

produce. Well, it is what it is. They're good hats.   Anyway,   before we wrap, one last question for you.   What can we do to   increase self custody usage?  

[01:41:02] NVK:

It's,   you know, like, you you can't   skip   the knowledge part.   So if you're not gonna take the time to uncle gym people and actually help them learn,   okay, it's not gonna happen. Okay? They're gonna be stuck on Coinbase   or they're gonna be in a semi custodial,   slightly better solution,   and they'll get rugged eventually or they'll lose coins because they're not gonna know what they're doing.   Okay? And and eventually, they just lose the money.   Okay.   You have to take people through the learning process.   There's no alternative.  

[01:41:41] ODELL:

I mean, you or you could just have them get a big key.   You just don't have to deal with   that. But, no, jokes aside, I agree. I mean, look. It's gonna it's always gonna be the more difficult path. Like, it's gonna take personal responsibility on both sides.   I think one cool thing about Bitcoin is there is a desire for a lot of people to,  

[01:42:06] NVK:

wanna have And it's okay. There's people who don't want to. There's people who don't wanna be saved. I mean, all Canada, they want to have fun staying poor. So,   you know, it's like whole countries wanna have fun staying poor. So, you know, what are you gonna do? Camp Forest Fair enough.  

[01:42:23] ODELL:

Freaks. I am continuing the streak that we're on   next Tuesday at twenty one hundred UTC.   I'm having Steven Pollock,   from the Bitcoin Policy Institute   on the show.   He's never been on the show before. I don't think he's ever been on a podcast before.   So I'm pretty excited about it. We've had Bitcoin Policy Institute shows in the past, but, we've never had Steven on. So it'll be a fun rip.  

[01:42:51] NVK:

Yes. When you when you come in to a Bitcoin review?  

[01:42:56] ODELL:

I I mean, when are you gonna invite me back on?  

[01:42:59] NVK:

Next one.  

[01:43:01] ODELL:

To be fair, every k does invite me a lot, and I just always   after doing, like, the first eleven shows with him, I've been kind of I don't blame you.   I really don't You know, the original shows are still on this feed. Like, when people get onboarded to dispatch, if they go back from the beginning and they start listening from the beginning, they actually have scamming my   show? I'm doing the opposite. I'm giving you should be paying me you should be paying me for the people I send your way.   You're the one scamming me in this situation. I'm very confused about the scamming direction of this, Oh, yeah. I'll come on I'm happy to come on I'll come on the next one. I'm happy to come on the next show.   And then I have the week after that, I already have planned, which is, like, pretty impressive for me.  

And that's gonna be,   VNPRC.   We're gonna talk hash pools. Pretty excited about that. Nice.  

[01:43:54] NVK:

Is there a are you planning any shows on dry markets anytime soon?  

[01:44:00] ODELL:

No.   But I should.  

[01:44:03] NVK:

Why are you?   I mean, we always mention stuff, but my show feel like it's stalled. Is too boring, dude. We have no reach. We're like it's like, my show is for, like, nerds who wanna fall asleep.   Okay? We're not It's not for reach. It's just cope.  

[01:44:18] ODELL:

It's it's stalled a little join market's stalled a little bit. Maybe I'll I'll have Waxwing on. He's very   vocal on, Noster the volume is happening. Which I appreciate him.  

[01:44:28] NVK:

The volume is happening.  

[01:44:31] ODELL:

I mean, hopefully, in the next few weeks, we free samurai, which would be fucking massive.   I feel like the tide is turning.  

[01:44:37] NVK:

I've, I've been, I'm gonna say this out loud. I've been, I've been lobbying Craig to add,   joint market UI.  

[01:44:46] ODELL:

No. He's never gonna he's so broken now. He's never he's never gonna do it. What a word.   He's so broken now. Poor Craig.   He should, though.  

[01:44:57] NVK:

Dude, gem is node. No. Not gonna happen. Gem is node.js.   Not gonna happen.  

[01:45:05] ODELL:

So you don't like gem? You just use the Windows,   GUI?   Terminal.   I just always I just, like, always invent, like, who is the user who is the user that's using the join market Windows GUI?   Like, who is that person? I mean, there is a lot of people who use Windows, man. I mean, the is still making I mean, they have user space, plugins now. I know. But, like, they're they're also using join market. Like, they have to get to the point where they're, like, they're gonna use join market, but then they're also using the window because that's the only GUI they have besides Jam.   But you don't need the GUI Linux or Mac GUI.  



[01:45:43] NVK:

You don't need the GUI for dry markets. You can just do it on terminal.  

[01:45:47] ODELL:

No. The Zoomers don't.  

[01:45:49] NVK:

Anyway It's a pain in the ass.  

[01:45:55] ODELL:

We'll get we'll get there. We're making progress. Progress is being made. We just need to keep the momentum up and Yes. I think we're trending in the right direction.   Enrique, you got any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap?  

[01:46:07] NVK:

No. Thanks for having me. It's, it is an honor   to be on the the most watched Bitcoin show in Bitcoin,   and, it's always fun to, to hang, man.  

[01:46:20] ODELL:

Yeah. Likewise.   Thank you for your service, and thank you for joining us.   You said   you said you like the Bitcoin Bugle Guys. You're you're a fan of the Bitcoin Bugle Guys? I like the Bugle. I like the PodConf,  

[01:46:36] NVK:

which I'm never approved.   I I like the Bitcoin comedy, man.   I I miss the the hardcore,   Bitcoin uncensored.   You know? Go out there and be cringe people.  

[01:46:50] ODELL:

Yeah. I agree.   They made something. I think   I think they're making fun of me.  

[01:46:57] NVK:

It's hard to tell. It's always hard to tell. I can never tell if they're making fun of me or not.  

[01:47:03] ODELL:

I'm I'm pretty sure they're making fun of me, but I feel compelled to,   have it ingrained in the feed forever. So,   with that, Enrique, thank you for joining us. Huge shout out to Bitcoin Bugle for this this masterpiece.  

[01:47:28] Unknown:

Used to spend my nights in watching   Netflix Trailer Park Boys was my favorite show   Fixed my incentives   Now I can't afford taxes   Forty hours per week   Oh, how I've grown,   listening to sick to death   dispatch,   or my fave rabbit hole recap.   You give me some what   Bitcoin did.   I'll listen to that signal.   It's my thinking cap.   I've looked for macro in all the same places,   Found the Fiat podcast   analysis   so dry.   But when I found   Lynn Alden, I didn't waste   it because there's nothing like her post to get me   high.   Listening to Sittypilled   dispatch   or my favorite rabbit hole recap.  

You give me some what   Bitcoin did.   I will listen to that. All that signal that's a fact.   Listening to sit to tell dispatch   or my favorite rabbit hole   gap. Get my signal   from podcast.   Listen.   Podcast.   Listen.   Podcast listening.   Get my signal from podcast   listening.   Podcast   listening.   Podcast listening.  

[01:49:58] ODELL:

Love you, freaks.   Stay humble, stack stats. Go to coinkite.com if you wanna buy a cold card. Go to bugle.news   if you liked that jam and want to read high quality journalism in the Bitcoin space. Love you all. See you next week. Peace.