EPISODE: 0.1.4
BLOCK: 675990
PRICE: 1820 sats per dollar
TOPICS: lightning network, video games
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[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Particular for the use of general to the general use, we tend to establish the equivalence with cash, and there is a huge difference there. For example, in cash, we don't know, for example, who's using a $100 bill today. We don't know who is using a 1,000 peso bill today. A a key difference in with the CBDC is that Central Bank will have absolute control on the rules and regulations that will determine the use of that expression of Central Bank Liability. And also, we will have the technology to enforce that. Those are those two issues are extremely important, and that makes a huge difference with respect to what, to what cash is.
[00:01:35] Unknown:
Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for another episode of Citadel dispatch. Thank you all for joining us once again. You're the ones who make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is. Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin for Bitcoiners. This is episode 14, Block 675990. I'm joined here by Andre Neves and Sputnik. We're gonna call him Khan for the rest of this episode. I'm very excited to have both these guys here. We will be focused mostly on lightning and its interaction with the video game world. I'm pretty excited about this. I think it's gonna be a killer conversation.
Before I get there, that clip you heard in the beginning, if you're joining us via audio only through our podcast feeds, was Agustin Carstens of the Bank of International Settlements. Apparently, this is a a bank that I I don't think anyone really knows exists unless you're a big corner, and then we're obsessed with it. But it's like a bank of banks, and that was a clip from October 2020, where he basically laid out the plan to get rid of cash, so that they can track us with their, like, totalitarian stable coins, which they like calling now CBDCs, but I don't it's like they just like to have nomenclature there. So, I mean, that's just it it surfaced it surfaced this week on Bitcoin Twitter. It seemed, a pretty obvious talking point, and I just wanted to surface that here on the show for you freaks.
As you know, if you're a return freak, you're able to access the show via Twitch, Twitter, YouTube. That's all live on Tuesdays at 21:100 UTC. You can also access it via our 2 podcast feeds, whether that's the Tales from the Crypt feed or the dedicated Citadel dispatch feed. You just search those in your favorite podcast apps. We're also now on Sphinx chat, which is a lightning powered, lightning powered everything application that allows you to chat, with encryption and also, stream stats while listening to podcasts. There's a tales from the crypt tribe in there and also a dedicated SIL dispatch tribe. Not sure exactly what we're gonna do with the dedicated Zillow Dispatch Tribe yet, but I think we can think of some fun things there.
And on that vein as well and you can go to tribes.spinx.chat, to look those up. We have about 20 freaks in this. Over 20 freaks in the Citadel dispatch 1 and over 400, in the tails from the crypt one. So cheers to that, to all the freaks that are already in there. Yeah. So with all that said, I'd like to introduce our great guests that we have today, our great guest hosts. I hope you guys came prepared with some good questions for us, and I hope they came ready to answer them. I guess we'll start with Con. Con, how's it going over there?
[00:04:32] Unknown:
Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here here and, yeah, talk about lightning and gaming, which has followed me for, I think, yeah, over 2 years now. So I think there's a lot you can ask us, and I'm excited.
[00:04:49] Unknown:
I failed a little bit as a host. Khan is, the founder of Donner Lab. Andre is the CTO of Zebedee. Both of them are focused on introducing sats into gaming directly, and that is why they're here. So, Andre, what's up? How's it going?
[00:05:11] Unknown:
Hello. Hello. Hey, Matt. Constantine, thanks for having me, Dan. It's It's awesome to be here. Big fan of the show. So
[00:05:19] Unknown:
Cool. Cool. Cool. To the new freaks that are here and to our guests, on the on the screen, we have, on the top, we have the the evil empire price, we have the Coinbase pro price, and on the bottom, we have the proper free market. We have Bisq. So there you go. So with all that said, I figure I I I don't really know how to start this conversation, and I I I I feel like the best way to start it is esports. We've seen esports absolutely take off over the last 5 years. It's become a global sensation. I'm curious. Where do you guys stand on that movement as a whole? Let let forget about Bitcoin for a second. How how do you feel about where esports is currently?
[00:06:04] Unknown:
So I don't know. My experience with esports is I really like watching it, so I think I watch it weekly or biweekly and for the last 8 years now. So I'm a really big fan of DOTA 2, for example, I watch a lot of years ago. And I think I think esports is pretty cool. It showcases, like, very high skill in sports. And I don't know if you if you see what player bases are in in Counter Strike, for example, and how how good these players were getting in the last years. I think it's really awesome to watch and how this evolved on Twitch and everything. I think the industry is super interesting.
[00:06:45] Unknown:
Yeah. My take on on esports is that it's, in my opinion, the current currently the biggest driver of of the gaming industry. Right? It's it's 10% growth year over year for the past decade. And, I think over the last 5, 6, 7 years, esports has really been, the leading the leading factor there. And so there's really just one, aspect of esports that I I'm not a huge fan. And, it's it's the notion of of, you know, only the best of the best can ever reach that level. It's similar to any sort of sports competition. Right? You're gonna only fear the best, are you gonna be in the Olympics, World Cups, and so forth. But, I think in in video games, we can, because it's all cloud based, we can actually provide the ability for esports to be more available to, a larger audience that isn't, well, a larger active audience, right, that isn't just participating by watching.
So I think that's really the the only thing. But, otherwise, I also have Twitch running on the background all the time, whether it's coding in a meeting or something. So, yeah, a big fan of watching CS GO, especially since our our release.
[00:07:52] Unknown:
I mean, I think this is that that is, like, something that has been channeled by any gamer out there ever. I mean, that is not, like, top a 100 in the world. Right? It's like you're watching one of these tournaments, or you're watching some of the
[00:08:13] Unknown:
Yeah. And the money that goes in there is insane. If you look at it, it's so top heavy, like Andre was saying.
[00:08:20] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's amazing how, we have, 2 not to dox anyone, but we have 2 mods in the Infuse, CS code team that that help us, you know, managing the the servers and so forth. And, they're just on a whole other level. They're so insanely good. And, and they're not even, you know, at anywhere near the level that some of these guys play at at, esports. So 1 of 2 of them were Global Elites and CS GO and and, you know, played in ECSA and all these things. And, and they're like, no. I'm I'm not even close. I'm not even nearly close. So it there's still a big discrepancy between the top of the the top one one percent, right, the 0.1% and and the 1%. So, it's it's really something that's, more or less unachievable to your general gamer,
[00:09:06] Unknown:
which which, you know, I wish that was the only difference here. And then meanwhile, we have, like, a 14 year old winning, like, $1,000,000 at the Fortnite championships. Right? Yeah.
[00:09:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Pretty much. It's,
[00:09:20] Unknown:
yeah. It's interesting to me oh, go on. Go on. The good thing about games is you can train every day, all day. Right? And this is what they do. So the top players have achieved such a mastery which you cannot see in other sports, I think, because you're restrained by your physical tiredness, for example.
[00:09:37] Unknown:
Well, there's definitely I mean, in all sports, there's a there's a peak age. Right? You know, and there's a peak age, and it's usually between when you get strong enough versus when you get too old. Right? And I feel like the peak age for every competitive sport, except maybe, like, gymnastics or something, like, it's gotta be it's gotta be gaming. Esports has to be, like, one of the lowest peak ages. Like, immediately your reflexes just fucking start dying once you pass, like, 16 years old.
[00:10:07] Unknown:
Yeah. That's true. But I think there are also big strategic esports. Right? Like, DOTA 2, for example, has a lot of old players who are captains.
[00:10:15] Unknown:
Or olds, they are, like, 30 2 or something. So Right. It's a reflex versus a reflex game like Fortnite. I guess Fortnite is Yeah. Is is different. So esports Yeah. It's it's almost unfair for us to Fortnite's one of the big growing ones now, or I guess it was at least for a while there, and it's kind of unfair to group everything in together. Right? Like, there there there are there are such different variations across the esports landscape.
[00:10:41] Unknown:
It's it's the same as bundling all sports together. Right? It's saying, you know, all sports are great. It's like, well, there's so many different types and, and flavors. Yeah. I think I think there's definitely clear types in when it comes to esports around, like, FPS. Right? So you got, like, Valor and CS GO and Fortnite and all these, I guess Fortnite is a little different, but, you've got these these FPS heavy. And then you've got your your MMORPGs or or or or, you know, you're related to DOTA 2 and things like that, which are a little bit more strategy heavy. I think for the FPS games, the the younger crowd dominates it. And, yeah, we had not to get too off topic, but we had some people participating in Minkox tournament. And it was like a a 15 year old took the prize. You know? He just, like, was the best one, by far. Like, he just won it all.
So yeah. It's the new generation.
[00:11:32] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I'm a I'm a I don't know how common it is, but I'm a weird gamer in that, I'm like first person shooters, and I'm like civilization, which is, like, completely it's like the the farthest variations of gaming possible.
[00:11:48] Unknown:
Yeah. We have, you need to to own some noobs, and sometimes you want to chill and just get wrecked by Gandhi.
[00:11:57] Unknown:
We have a a weekly game night at at Zebedee, and, the first few few nights we played, Age of Empires 2. And it's just such a classic. And and the whole time, I was like, what if this entire economy was based in South? Wouldn't that be awesome? And so, like, the the imagination goes wild when you're playing these games. Right?
[00:12:16] Unknown:
Well, I mean, this is so, like, so this has been a a a I grew up gaming, and I grew up playing first person shooters. And as soon as I discovered Bitcoin, my immediate thing was, I want to kill someone and get paid sats, and I want when they kill me, I want to lose sats. And, actually, at that time, I hadn't even I was still I I hadn't matured as a Bitcoiner yet, and I was I wanna get paid Bitcoin, and I wanna I wasn't even at Sats yet. So we weren't it was it was before that, and I was, like, I think, like, some some kid in the other side of the world should be able to spawn camp me, and and take my money.
And one of the reasons why I wanted to have both of you guys on for the this is the first conversation we've really had centered around gaming, is because, you know and and it makes sense, like, in a in a new space, and and we saw with, specifically with, Zebedee, you start small with the types of games you do. But right now, both of you guys have real first person shooters, experiences where where you literally when you kill someone, you take their stats. I I I know there's a little bit more nuance there specifically with Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, but you wanted to talk a little bit about the mechanics there, about how that changes one of these I mean, I I I wanna start with Andre, because Andre, you specifically, you guys have this new product Infuse.
Right? And you took you took Counter Strike Go, which is, like, practically, like, the open source equivalent of, 1st person shooters because there's just insane amounts of mods you can do to it, and you infuse sets into it. It's like the OG first person. This game has held up since we were we were little kids and we were playing it. Right? Like, this game is still almost exactly the same. Yeah. That's crazy. That's fucking insane. 99. Is that what you said?
[00:14:14] Unknown:
Yeah. This one, I think, kinda strike 1 o 1.0 is 99. Right? And then the 1.6 was around 2,002, 3? I may be wrong.
[00:14:24] Unknown:
Right. So, that's insane. Okay. So in the nineties, this the the the this game came out, and it basically has hold up held up. Right? How has what do you how do you think adding stats to a game like that has changed the dynamics of that game?
[00:14:41] Unknown:
So maybe I can start just by giving a a very quick brief on on Infuse. You were asking about, like, how it works and and the layer around it, and then I'll touch on on the change in in dynamics and gameplay. So Infuse at its core is really just a a a set of, you know, parts in a system that allow us to inject or infuse sats into a game. Like you were saying, CS GO specifically because, one, it still has, you know, 20,000,000 active players a month, which is which is insane. And it's been going on for 20 years. It's still the the, you know, crop of the what's the the expression like cream of the crop when it comes from for FPS, shooters. Right? So it made sense. We have a a a lot of users. It made sense to be a game to to infuse.
Specifically, the first version that we had, which is this tournament mode, is you you you basically, you're staking some sats. You're saying, hey. Let's put in 500 sats each, And then whoever, is the best player takes the biggest, part of the pot, so it's divided equally, between between your scores in the game in the game. So, I think initially, the goal was just to, you know, can this be done? Right? Is is this feasible? There's a lot of of ideation and imagination and, oh, this is great. This is awesome. Let's make it work. But you you don't really see it until you you build it. And when we made it work, I remember Chris Mandelduck who who is also a cofounder of Zevity. He he built the the initial prototype, and we didn't believe him. And and then he brought it up. So, no, let's do it in a game night. So, everyone got together, and he's like, I I put I put stats into CS GO. And then that's where Infuse came came up. And, so I think, in general, what we've seen is there's a lot more, notion of skin in the game is very, very real.
People get angry when they lose and they wanna play again. And so they stake more sats because they're like, you know, screw you. Why are you taking my sats away? And and they just keep going and going. So it it definitely has added, a layer of competitiveness that isn't there necessarily when you're just playing CS GO normally because I think it's, it's it's, very, there's there's it's frictionless. Right? You die and you respawn or you wait till the end of the match and then you you respawn again. So there's very little cost or both from a from a monetary standpoint, but also from a a mental cost. You're just you're just sitting. You're waiting. You're watching the game, and then you play again.
When when you have skin in the game, when you have stats, it really changes. It seems like people are much more, not only into the game, but interested and wanna participate and wanna come back and wanna win more, and especially the ones that have been losing. There's now that drive to make up that that stats, the those stats that they've lost. Right? So they come back and and, unfortunately, some keep losing. Right? Because that's the reality of it. A lot of people are not are not that great and a lot of people are really good. So that's the first version of Infuse. I think, we can talk a little bit more later about the new the new game modes we have coming up, but that's that's what we've seen in terms of of dynamics. Right? It changes a bit of the incentive structures of the game.
It's still CS GO at its core, but now you have the added, competitiveness aspect in there. Like, I have I have some money on the line even though it's, you know, cents and and and, you know, a dollar, 2 dollars, 5 dollars. But, you know, that that starts there, and then you can you can you can go as as big as we want. Right? We can we can do a 1,000,000 Sats games if we wanted to. It's just, there's not that many good players willing to put that much money yet. So that's what we've seen on our side. I don't know if Con has has things on on Bitcoin bouncing out. I think he has some different, you know, incentives in in the games as well.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I think our game, is is a is is a little bit different because for for you, it was harder. Right? So you needed to take on the lightning element, the Bitcoin element where we build it from the ground up to to include Bitcoins. Our game works in a way where, there we have have these maps. It's a deathmatch game mode. You run around and collect these bounty cubes is what we call them, and this increases your bounty. And when another person kills you, then you drop your bounty, and they couldn't collect them. And then at the end of the round, your bounty gets converted to earnings.
So the gameplay is re centered around these sats, and these sats have a in game presence. It's a little bit different. And from from skin in the game is because our players do not pay anything. Right? So we are just a very sophisticated Bitcoin faucet
[00:19:15] Unknown:
is how I would describe it. I wanna get into I wanna get into that in a second because I think that is the coolest one of the coolest elements of I mean, you just created a whole different incentive structure and business model there as well. But before we get into that, I just wanted to I'm I'm just curious if you guys agree with me here. My thesis that I'm running with, as as as both a lifelong gamer and a Bitcoiner, is that once we start adding Sats into these games and I think it's cool that you guys that we have both of you on here because you're coming at it from 2 different angles. Right? Like, the infused product is super cool because you're setting up a way for, you know, maybe, like, if we dream big, like, an epic or someone coming along and being, like, we just wanna partner with you guys and just throw it right into a big game. But the thesis for a while has always been that challenger games are gonna come in, and they're gonna try and and make a name for themselves, and that's where, like, Bitcoin Bounty Hunt comes in. But, anyway, my thesis is that once we start adding stats into games, it becomes almost like now that people know you can have stats in the game, you can have skin in the game, why would you ever play without stats? It's like I I would never spend any time playing poker without money.
I just wouldn't even consider it. It's so boring without money. Is that what's gonna happen here with with gaming without, like, competitive gaming or semi competitive gaming, amateur competitive gaming without without stats?
[00:20:41] Unknown:
That that okay. I will start with the with the the view that, no, I don't I don't know because I think skill differences are one thing. It's very hard to balance games, and then it can be frustrating. And you already have, like, progression mechanics which which might encourage you to play, but suts are better, I guess. But another thing is simply that games are buggy, games are glitchy, games can be hacked, and poker is like it's hard to do that. Right? It's it's it has defined rules. So I think there's another element of uncertainty in games which might, discourage from having sats everywhere, for example.
[00:21:20] Unknown:
I mean, it's it's not that I mean, online poker has similar concerns, right, that has dominated them for years. That that people are like, how do you make it provably fair? How do you know that the house isn't screwing you? And you have AIs playing better than any player? You have people controlling, like, 4 of the seats or 5 seats on an online poker table,
[00:21:39] Unknown:
stuff like that. Oh, that's true. Yeah. My my take on that is I think there will always be, you know, games that don't have sats, or versions of the same games that have sats that don't have sats. I think once the cat is out of the bag and and we move from a place where we're, you know, infusing sats into games and and we're seeing, you know, triple a studios wanting to place, that sense into, like, putting sats into the game. Right? Like, look. Let's make it part of our core, fabric of this game. I think that will change, the the once once we go over that hurdle, I think, it's it's more of a, you know, we have this in game currency that is necessary you know, it's totally interoperable with any other service, wallet, game, or anything that speaks this language. It's kinda like, you know, we can just create a new browser as long as it speaks HTTP. Right? Like, we don't need to figure out the the rest. That's super over oversimplifying here. But, if you if you're a game developer and you and you're seeing and this is now the, the status quo, right, which is now you can put Bitcoin into games, I think the users will want to have Bitcoin into games because it it changes the the idea of of money like, the value that that you put into a game, can now return to you after you've put that value in. So as a as a, you know, a 15, 14 year old, I would spend 100 of hours playing games. I'm sure both of us both of you as well. I would even lie to to friends of mine being like, yo, you know, I can't make it tonight. I haven't my aunt's birthday or something. And they would come back and be like, but I thought you said that was yesterday. Right? Because I would lie about it just so I can stay at home and playing games.
Imagine if if all of that time that you you put into it could you could see some return. We're not talking a 100% of the same return, but we're talking you you're not just, endlessly putting that value out there and and, you know, it's it's only one direction. Right? So I think once the like I was saying, once the cat is out of the bag, I think, there will be a drive and there will be demand for those. But I don't think sats fit into every single gameplay, period. Like, you can't just inject sats into a game. I think adding money to a game changes the mechanics. I I don't think it's that easy. Right? And and even with CS GO, we can't just like, does it make sense, for example, to change the money in CS GO, the money that you buy, guns with, right, and and and weapons and so forth? Does that should we make those the stats, or do we make the health the stats? Like, what you know, you need to really think about the dynamics, just shoving stats into it. I don't know that makes it a better game.
But I I agree. I think in general, we're moving in that direction. I would like to see the future is is definitely, you know, gonna be sats heavy and, there's just too many benefits. Right? It's it's, it's interoperable and I think that in and of itself is is a big one.
[00:24:23] Unknown:
Well, we're already seeing games throw in. I mean, Con said this earlier, we're already seeing games throw in, like, different incentive structures to try and to basically hit that that nerve ending that you have, like, skin in the game. But usually, it's just in these complete walled gardens that are just so much worse than something like stats. And I mean, the perfect example, of multiple like, I always go back to Fortnite because Fortnite is a perfect example of a ton of different things in modern gaming. The first and most important I would say is that it shows how, like, gamers are motivated as fuck. Gamers are motivated consumers that love what they do and have very low switching costs. They will go to whatever is hot. They will go to whatever is new, whatever they think is fun and exciting, and they will move over there. And it'll happen quicker than anyone will ever expect. And Fortnite is a perfect example because you had you you had this move to Battle Royale out of nowhere.
Battle Royale was like a brand new format, and all of a sudden it dominated the whole game space. And to the freaks that don't know, it's this idea when you drop, you know, like, a 100 people into a into a closed arena, and the last man standing wins, which by the way is, like, perfect for a for a SaaS, grand prize. But anyway and then the other thing they did was they made it so it's free to play on every major platform, that it was cross platform on every major platform. These are things that didn't exist before for a triple a game. This idea that you could play with the PlayStation person from Xbox, or PC or even Wii or whatever, Switch.
And then so they added that, and then their monetization is is their shit coin. It's like V Bucks. Right? And then it has it has you can buy skins and all this different stuff that doesn't change the mechanics of the game. It doesn't make you any better at the game, but it makes your character look cool. And they're making 1,000,000 of 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars or tons of money off of of of of a base using this Bitcoin. Yeah. Billion. Is that what you said, billions? Yeah. I think it was 2,000,000,000 at the peak of 2018. Yeah. They're making 1,000,000,000 of dollars because people are are buying and earning this closed loop shit coin and buying skins that don't change any of the mechanics of the game except how they look. And the whole game is free otherwise, besides, I guess, subscriptions to make it easier to earn. But, like, so this idea right? So go on. Yeah.
[00:26:52] Unknown:
I was just gonna say and and the the main issue with that is, like, with any Altcoin, you can sell it. You can always sell it. It's at a loss? Fine. You sell it, and you get dollars back. V Bucks is is a one direction thing. It's the same as buying Steam games. It's it's like you you put the dollars in there. You can't say, like, oh, I have, you know, $50 in Steam. Let me, like, bring this back into into my my hands. Like, you you don't really get to do that. You have to use it in the ecosystem that they provide. So it's it's even worse than than your your shit coins because you can't sell it. Right? You can't, like, get rid of it. You have to find a secondary market to then, you know, somehow sell a skin to someone else that, you know, this, this, and that.
So it's it's it's a a form of of keeping that that that closed garden, right, that you were talking about. It's it's we give them a little bit, to suck them in, but it's always one direction. It's it's never back into the user, back into the player, which I think can can change quite a bit in, by just introducing stats into this.
[00:27:52] Unknown:
Yeah. That makes sense. I agree with that that you want to remove the shitty diamonds from mobile games. But I think it's it's a predatory tactic. Right? It's it's not like they would like to do something else. So they're the game developers, I mean. So I think this needs to be challenged by by new games coming to the scene.
[00:28:13] Unknown:
But this is so, I mean, you're gonna love our transition, Con. So this is why I'm super bullish on Bitcoin Bounty Hunt because it's a whole new format. It's an idea that no one had really considered before, and it's a very novel format. So do you wanna go into how how the Sats are just go go through the full dynamics of of Bitcoin Bounty Hunter. So the full dynamics,
[00:28:36] Unknown:
then I maybe need to, like, think a bit back because we created a game before Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, which was okay. The idea was what is cool or how can can you earn SUDs while playing games? And our first idea was, okay, you could stream a game and then viewers could add, could buy you enemies. This was our first idea, which I showcased at the lightning heck day in New York. And it was a cool game, but it was super niche. Right? And then we changed it to this auto chess, which was high then in in 2018 or 2019. It was super hype to have auto chess, so we built that, then nobody could could play it. So, yeah, then we we scratched that game and thought, okay, let's do something everybody can understand, and it was a person shooter.
And so our goal at StonerLab is to make Bitcoiners out of Bitcoiners out of no corners. Right? Which is cool and good for everyone. So the idea was: Okay. What can we do so that our players can earn Sats? And then very quickly we came to the idea that, okay, maybe we can just sell advertising for SUTs, and then these SUTs get distributed to the players. So what we have is we have these in game banners of advertisers, sponsors, memes, and then this allow us allows us to to spawn these SUT cubes in games so that our player can players can earn subs.
[00:29:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So, I mean, you you you in you created a whole new business model that a that a game publisher advertisers basically, are the ones paying you, not the customer. But the customer is still, you know, getting rewarded from those ad dollars. I guess you would you presumably, you take a cut of those ad dollars. Yeah. And the cool part to me is is that the ad dollars is all, like, we we've been a sponsor. Tales and the Crypt has been a sponsor for I don't even know how long now, and we just scan an invoice. We just post we post, like, a JPEG. We post our little NFT. I'm sorry. NFT. We post a JPEG, and then we just I guess you have to approve it to make sure it's not, like, a list of content or something. And then we put a link, and then we just pay we keep paying the invoice. And, actually, anyone can go to bitcoin bounty hunt.com, and they can contribute to the tails from the crypt ad budget over there, and then that gets divvied out to the players.
So a player can't lose any money. But I think it's important to realize here is, like, every time the stats conversation comes up, we have critics say, you know, there's gonna be kids that lose tons of money on your games, and it's like, yeah, that is the status quo already. Like, people lose 1,000 of dollars on games all the time, and they have no path to win money though. Like, so so a game a game that allows you to win money and lose money is strictly superior to a game that only allows you to lose money.
[00:31:28] Unknown:
I think sense. Yeah.
[00:31:30] Unknown:
Yeah. If I could just add, like, Constantine's, like, the idea behind the use of of sponsors is, you know, it's it basically removes, whereas right now, advertisers, there's always this, this third, like, middle third party, right, that basically is taking the cut. The user, it doesn't see any value, but the user is the one that sees the advertisement and then someone else is making a cut on that. So really what what Constantine was what you know, the first one to enable is it's it's using the game and the game's mechanics as, essentially a medium for advertisers to reach users.
So whereas an advertiser is basically saying, look. For your tiny, tiny span of attention in this game, for you to see this this image on the wall, here's some stats. Right? That's basically like, if you if you boil it down to the basics, that's what it is. So advertisers are directly, in a much more direct manner, paying for users', you know, attention. And I think that's very powerful because, right now, the users don't see the status quo is the users see nothing of that at all, and only third parties make that. And now with with Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, you can see, you know, Tales From the Crypt has definitely sponsored lots of of Sat cubes that are satoshis that people have withdrawn from the game and maybe they have bought stuff with. Right? And and, otherwise, that that wouldn't be possible.
So I think, you know, Bitcoin Bounty Hunters is a great example of of a a brand new, model for for introducing Sats into the game, and I think it's it's genius. Yeah.
[00:33:02] Unknown:
And I think the cool thing also as a player is you, you connect something positive, the advertiser. Right? Because you you Mhmm. They basically gift you money. Right? It's not that you view an intrusive ad, which annoys you, and then you have negative thoughts about the advertiser. With us, it's just, oh, it's in in Discord, there's sometimes, oh, it's so cool that you have these advertisers who are basically paying us. And, I mean, we have players from all around the world and
[00:33:27] Unknown:
And I think it's similar to it it's similar to in in movies. Right? When when you see, like, you're watching a movie and all of a sudden the person is at home in a scene and they open their Mac MacBook. Right? Like, that's a that's a native advertising where, like, you know, Apple must have picked there there was a deal behind there. They're like, okay. You're gonna use a a Windows machine or a MacBook. And, you know, the the the the viewer is actually not getting anything out of this one. But in in the game scenario, they are. Like, they're they're saying, look. You you you're seeing our advertisements, and here's some, you know, here's some, sats, which which, like the the whole point is it's it's a little bit more native advertising than it is, you know, a pop up on a web screen. Right? It's not it's not invasive. It's not, it's not in your face, like, you know, barring you from from taking the best user experience of the product or the game. It's just part of the game. It's it's native to the game.
[00:34:17] Unknown:
One of the funny things about that just that Apple product placement thing you said is that that, Apple doesn't allow enemies it doesn't allow antagonists or bad guys in movies to use Apple products. So anytime you see an Apple product in a movie, it's always, like, the hero of the movie, which I just thought is it's Android's for everyone, but, but but if if you use an iPhone, you have to be the hero. It's hilarious. I think it's interesting, this ad model, because as a gamer, I mean, I remember so first of all, I like that it's tasteful. I like that it's just like billboards. There's, like, billboards in the game that you're just, like, running around. They're just static images, which is nice. I like that it does create a positive taste in in the consumer because they're getting paid, and they get to play the game for free. So you're able to give them all of a sudden, we're able to give a free game that's not doesn't feel predatory, which is really cool. But this idea of in game ads is interesting to me because, I guess, on mobile, we have the annoying, horrible, like, click through, listen to this video pop ups or whatever to get credits or get, you know, cheat codes.
It's, like, it's just malicious as fuck. But before that existed, I remember on, I think, Halo 2 or something, the DLC was, like, sponsored by, like, Mountain Dew. Like, you got free DLC and you, like, ran past vending machines, and there was just, like, Mountain Dew vending machines and Mountain Dew billboards everywhere, and the downloadable content was free. And I guess they just didn't make enough money from that, and they just went for, like, now it's, like, you get, like, a triple a game and you have to pay them, like, $40 just to get the extra maps or something. They just that whole ad model just kinda got thrown out the window, so it's kinda cool that you brought it back.
[00:36:01] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's it's very annoying in in mobile games, and I agree. But I what what, like, PC or console games? I mean, out the the FIFA and and NBA series are doing a lot of advertising. Right?
[00:36:12] Unknown:
A lot of They do, like, end game advertising on the billboards of the FIFA billboards on the soccer field. They have, like, the classic advertising.
[00:36:20] Unknown:
You can't skip the cut scenes anymore in in in the NBA games. So you need to to watch this also advertising at the start of a single player game against the bot, which is super, super ridiculous, I think, if you pay full price for the game. So it's I don't know how much.
[00:36:38] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I think, just to add another example, not to steal from from, Constantine's Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, who's definitely the first one, but, Bitcoin rally is one that we that we use, that Zebedee has built. And, it's a little bit more of a of a proof of concept game that has evolved and and is now going to be released, for people to host their own tournaments and all these things. It's a it's a Mario Kart like game, that has stats in it. And, it's it's really cool because, we we followed a very similar approach to the, to the the Sats, advertising model. Right? So, but instead of of anyone being able to sponsor, we we use, MintGox, which is the we can talk about later. But, we use MintGox sponsors in in the in the app and in the game itself. So for example, Bitrefill, which is a great company and and great people work there. And, they they work closely with Minkox, and so they've been sponsoring a handful of of our, events. And, we actually put a bit refill, station, like, kind of like a gas station inside of the Bitcoin rally map where if you pass by it, it's you you either go left or right in in one of the intersections. If you go right, you pass by the Bitrefill, station, and you're you're actually given sats. Right? Like, you see sats pouring in, which is which is awesome. And and you see, like, little coins coming into the cart, which is basically so Bitrefill pays, you know, MintGox for the sponsorship deals, and then we place them into the games. And then we give those sats to the users playing the games. And then we definitely know of users who have won and then, you know, go ahead and and use it back into Bitrefill, you know, for buying cards or buying whatever whatever they need.
So, you know, through Bitcoin Bouncy Hunt, through Bitcoin Rally, and all these games that we're introducing, you know, you you can begin to see that that notion of, like, the lightning economy where you can earn somewhere, spend it somewhere, earn it over here, send it over there. Right? And it's all interoperable. So you're talking about a service that sells gift cards worldwide speaking the same language as the in game currency of of this game. And that was an unthinkable, you know, 3, 4 years ago. So I think it's very powerful, that that we're able to do stuff like this.
[00:38:50] Unknown:
And specifically, I mean, previously, we might be able to get put, like, bit refill gift cards or credit. Right? The cool part is that bit refill can give you stats, and then you could either use that bit refill or you can use it at one of their competitors. You can pay some random BTC pay server or something, because it's interoperable. Yeah. I actually wanted to bring up, that game because I think that's awesome. I fucking love Mario Kart. I didn't know if we were allowed to say the words Mario Kart or not. So I'm glad that you just put that out there.
But, yeah, Mario Kart to me, like, is a perfect example of why would I ever play Mario Kart with my friends again if we couldn't didn't have stats on the line? Like, why why would I ever do that? Like, that that that is poker without money to me. Would you agree on that statement?
[00:39:34] Unknown:
I agree. If it's if it's readily available, I agree. And and similar to poker, it's one of those things where I like, okay. If it's 5 people that play a little bit more seriously and they know that they're good, they would be willing to put, you know, $50, $100, whatever it is. Right. If if it's people that aren't, and they're like, okay. Let's just put money just for sake of having money because it's boring without, but let's put $5, and it's fine. And and it would be just as great. Right? So the fact that you can go for, you know, as little as one satoshi most of the time. And and and, you know, if Bitcoin grows to $500,000, we can go to millisats, you know. We can we can always, you know, go lower. So I think I think we have plenty of room, but I would agree. I think once Bitcoin rallies out, why would you play, you know, Mario Kart without
[00:40:17] Unknown:
without Sats? Alright? I'm not laughing at Andre. All the freaks are just in the comments making fun of how I pronounce, Mario Kart, and now I don't know what's real and what's not. But, I, a 100% would would play that game that we were talking about with my boys on, like, Friday or Saturday
[00:40:34] Unknown:
for a $100 each or something, you know, like poker. Right. It'd be fun. Exactly. Yeah. Money matches with friends are always fun. I don't know. It's I I do it a lot with Super Smash Brothers,
[00:40:45] Unknown:
And yeah. Nice.
[00:40:46] Unknown:
It brings me to the money match game, I think. I I did a money match with roast beef at the lightning conference in Berlin, but he was too drunk to show up to hang hangover hangover.
[00:40:59] Unknown:
I it brings me back to my LAN days. Right? I I don't know if you I imagine you guys went to those, but, you know, where I where I I grew up, like, we had these LAN houses, right, where you just go and and before gaming was was online. Right? And you you had to go to these houses and get all your friends together and so forth. And it it just felt much more competitive. It felt felt much more like you had skin in the game because everyone was around you watching you. And I think this you know, the the additional stats brings back a little bit of that, that that sentiment there.
You you were talking about about, Smash Brothers or Smash Brothers, whatever. We we have a working so if you guys remember Rikey, which was a game that, MandelDuck built, which is like Street Fighter. Here I go saying the the names of the games. It's it's kinda like it's it's it's a it's a, fighting game, you know, 2 player fighting game. And, it's, it we're we basically, the problem with 2 player fighting games is, latency and ping. Right? When it's a a lot of players, it's fine because there's, there's a lot happening in the game and it doesn't it it's not too faulty. But, when you when you lag 1v1, it it's horrible experience. And so we found out that early on that we couldn't really do Minkox with with Raiki. So we're actually turning it into a a Smash Bros style game. We have, like, a an initial v one going, and we're gonna put a bunch of sats in it. So hopefully over the next few months, we can, invite some people for early betas and things like that.
[00:42:29] Unknown:
That sounds really cool. I'm down to to beta test for you. Especially, like, with us.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
That's another perfect example. It's it's almost like the whole, like, Nintendo lineup of games just gets completely ruined if if alternatives are are added that have sats.
[00:42:48] Unknown:
Yeah. Are your party There's branding would be awesome. Yeah. There's branding and network effects to to, you know, go against it, but I think, I think Bitcoin in general is is getting a lot of traction, and especially away from the, you know, investment aspect of it. I think people are beginning to see the the values of the network and what it can enable, new types of interactions that it can enable apart from just like, oh, it's it's better money. It's it's better, store value. It it is all those things, but it also is, you know, an extremely, fast through through Lightning, it's extremely fast, extremely cheap network to do micro transactions at scale. And and if you apply that to games, you know, the sky's the limit. So, I think people are finally beginning to see that that Bitcoin as the network is is moving forward and and enabling all these new things.
[00:43:37] Unknown:
I guess my point is I said Nintendo, but I really meant, like, I guess, like, party games. Right? Like, so so I guess we should just we should dive in now. Like, the biggest issue here in terms of online gaming in general has always been, you know, griefing and, glitches and, like, people hacking, you know, oh, hacker got my headshot and stuff. And that obviously gets amplified when you add real money into games. That obviously if you if you're playing a party game with friends, that aspect is almost completely removed, you know. Like, unless, you know, like, your friend is spending 40 hours a week, trying to figure out what's the next hack of whatever party game you're playing, you're probably gonna be fine on that. And in that regard, to me, adding some skin in the game, adding some stats in the game is just a clear net benefit. But when we talk about online and we talk about public access and we talk about opening, you know, the ability for people to be competitive, with gaming to the public and not just, like, to the top 1%. I mean, that's gotta be a major major headache on your part. No?
[00:44:44] Unknown:
So I can just report we had we had a lot of hackers already, so it's it's hard to to counter this, and it's I would say it's almost impossible. I don't know how how you feel, Andre, how how many hackers you already had.
[00:44:56] Unknown:
Yeah. Interesting. I because they're writing new hacks for for Bitcoin Bounty Hunt. Right? Or I imagine there's, general hacks around, like, aim bots and things, but, they they have to be writing stuff. Simple. Yeah. So CS GO is is definitely one of the, you know, the games that have lots of of cheaters, hackers, and all these things. We do all the the quote, unquote due diligence. Right? We only run, VAC secured servers and and all the the bits and pieces there. But, we don't have a a custom anti cheat software, like you have in Face SIT servers and ECSL and ECSA, ECSDA servers and and all these things. So, we rely a lot on on, basically, like, community. So, because we have, like, a large number of mods to help and and oversee the the the servers, but, we have gotten a handful of them. I can't say that we have had too many.
What I would say is, what thus far, what we've seen at least is, because currently there is a cost to enter, there, it it sort of removes the incentive right away because, one, it's it's similar to any sort of hacking attack. Right? What you're doing is, technically speaking, hacking will always quote, unquote be possible. Right? It it's kind of a a given, that a system will have a vulnerability at some part in some point. No software is perfect. And so, you will always have cheaters, but what we find is when we add the, these costs, right, it it it's first of all, it's costly to spend 500 sats to then earn basically nothing. Right?
If if we're doing, matches of, you know, a 1000000 sats, I think we will need to have a little bit more knowledge of, like, who these people are that are putting a 1000000 stats into the game because we we and and we'll definitely have moderators watching it because we can't, provide the sort the same sort of of, oversight that you have in an esports tournament where everyone's in the same room. Right? And you're just, like, looking at the person, and you can see their screen in their computer. So I think, but but, you know, in general, we haven't seen that many, and I think it's because it it removes the incentive when, you have to put something in. So, a lot of our servers are, Steam, for for CS GO. Is it Steam plus, Sync Plus or Premium? Sorry. So you have to, you know, pay $15 on Steam to have access to it, and then, it has to be a new account. And then you have to put some sats into the game, and then maybe you win. Right? Let's say you hack it and then you take some.
It's not enough yet to drive a large, pool of cheaters and hackers. Right? So we have not seen that many. I think as as it grows and as things progress, we will likely see more. But that's where where it's a challenge. Like Constantine was saying, it's a challenge for most online games, and, we just need to to try our best to to remove them and and just be forceful. I think if we're if we do our job of making it very costly, to cheaters and hackers, they they they don't have the incentive to come back. Once it's very easy to cheat, then it's fine. They'll keep doing it. So if we find any any sort of, you know, hacking or or cheating or anything, we bend them right away. Right? It's now a burden for them. If you wanna prove to us that you didn't cheat, like, you know, prove to us. Show us. But, there's no way for for us to to combat it and say, you know, CS GO is now, you know, hacker free, cheat free because,
[00:48:17] Unknown:
it's it's just not how it works. How would they prove to you that they didn't cheat?
[00:48:21] Unknown:
So we we're actually setting this up now where we are recording all the matches. So, basically, we're recording matches, and we have a a whole recording, functionality in Infuse. So at any point in the middle of the game, if someone, seems to be cheating, you can go into Infuse, like, which is an overlay of CS GO. You can click a button and say, hey. You choose from the list of players, and you say a little message. Right? And that gets sent to, it gets alerted to Zebedee internally as well as the moderators. Hopefully, there's someone there to check it out and and look at it. But if not, we are beginning to to set up some servers are already set up, but not all, the automatic, you know, recording. So we can go back and say, okay. This time at this player, we you know, they cheated.
Unfortunately, it's it's retroactive. It's it's, like, post game. So, you know, there's it's it's rare for us to be able to catch them on the the act unless there's someone in the match or a moderator ready to to watch it. For any bigger matches, you can rest assure that we have people looking and watching it at all players. But, you know, for your everyday match, I can't say that that's always the case. So that's where the the videos, the recordings come in handy.
[00:49:28] Unknown:
Oh, I appreciate it. The tooling from CS GO, which is pretty cool. So I need to I need to catch them live with my private admin spectator mode, and then, oh, are they just lagging, or are they really speed hacking? You have it a lot easier. I'm envious. But I think the community approach is probably best, and I think I agree. When I was playing CS, it was only on community servers with CS source is what I was playing mostly, and there was Exactly. Not a lot of hackers because you always had mods online. I think only matchmaking really made that a problem, automatic match matchmaking with millions of players, which we don't have. So
[00:50:05] Unknown:
Well, you're going to, so you gotta be get prepared for it. I, right now, to the freaks who are watching live, I have our Sphinx chat up on in the screen share, because I thought, this Freak's meme was pretty funny because we were a little bit late to start today, so shout out to Sadasorian. Freaks, I'm still trying to figure out, you know, where this Sphinx chat is going to fall into place in this, in the show. So if you join the the chat, feel free to to say different perks that you might want from being in the chat. This show is your show just as much as it's my show, and, I'm excited to see where we go with that. But the reason I wanted to bring up Swinx is because there's an interesting element here.
You can set a, basically, a security deposit for people who join. In in with Marty's case, he he runs the tails from the crypt, the tails from the crypt tribe. He said to a 100 sat. So every time you send a message, you provide a security deposit of a 100 sat for 3 hours. And if he kicks you if he kicks you because you're spamming, he'll take your 100 sets. So I I there's an interesting element here where people are, like, the the the immediate it's the bell curve meme. Right? On the left of the bell curve, the immediate thing is, oh, you add Sats into a game, and all of a sudden, scammers and hackers are gonna get worse. But I think, you know, the right side of the bell curve, is is that if you add if you add Sats into the game in in a proper way with the security deposit, maybe you can actually reduce the, you know and and you you can do exactly what you just said. You can make it so that if someone tries to scam and they get caught, they're gonna actually lose real money. And I remember specifically when Halo came out, Halo 2, I guess, was the first one that was Xbox Live.
A bunch of my friends had, like we all had early gamertag with no numbers or anything. We just had straight letters, like, with real words. And I had one friend who, like, lost his beautiful Gamertag because we were cheating on Halo 2. And it was like a real skin in the game kind of, you know, kick you in the balls. They were like they gave him, like, 3 strikes. He did his 2 strikes, and the 3rd strike, he lost it, and he got, like, real punishment for for trying to cheat in the game. Do what do you think about the potential there?
[00:52:31] Unknown:
I think this already happens. Right? The now especially with skins, nowadays, you got, like, Steam accounts that are a bunch of games. Right? And you have skins on CS GO and you have this over here and you have Valorant, this and you have, and and now you have this, like, inventory of things that are technically not money, but they're worth money inside of their own markets. Right? You could sell the scans and you could use them here and there. It it's not the monetary value, but people that have all those skins and have that inventory, once again, they're not gonna cheat because they will run the risk of losing all of that. And we I I definitely know of people who have done something similar to to your friend who's, you know, let me mess around with this and then got a warning, and then Steam was just like, no. I don't care. Let's just let's just ban this person, and he lost everything. And I think it was, like, 1,000 of dollars worse. He never did it again. Right? Because to him, it was like, okay. I lost enough that that I've I've learned my lesson. So once you it's the same with with the same with any sort of hackers. Right? It's you need to make it more costly. This is something I talk to Mandel Duck a lot when we're, like, working on on the games. It's for Minkox is because he's like, well, you know, this person found his own this extreme edge case vulnerability here when this happens.
So we just consistently add hurdles. So it's like, oh, you need to do this and then you need to find an encryption key in order to to read the message, and then you need to do this other thing to read the message. And then to find the API key, you need to do x, y, and z. And then maybe you're able to try and attack the server, but you just went 5, 6 levels deep, and it disincentivizes the the attacker, you know, a lot. So, the more I think the Sphinx chat there situation where you said with the deposit is very similar to the entrance fee of the CS GO. You don't we we do have free credit servers where you come in for the sake of playing to learn, right, to see how it goes.
But the people that are doing higher stake servers, you have to put the Sats before you you play. And so that already disincentivizes a lot of tiers because they're like, well, I'm not gonna potentially lose my sats. I want to gain sats. And if I'm putting sats on the line, there's a chance they're gonna catch me and then I lose it. Right? So the incentive's gone. Yeah. I'm I'm a big fan of of that model.
[00:54:36] Unknown:
We have we have something like a safety deposit because, our players, they run their own lightning node. Right? So they need to earn that channel first. So they need to earn about 5 k sats, and then Nice. Then only then they get light debt.
[00:54:51] Unknown:
What? They're born into debt.
[00:54:53] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. So they need to earn that channel. And and the cool thing when we when we had some our first hackers, he he did not have a channel yet, and then another one had a channel yet, but then we just closed the channel. Right? So he needed to earn another 5 k subs to be able to to play again. So So Yeah. But I think this the problem with that is that it can, like, you you you fight a couple of hackers, but you you reduce the UX for everybody.
[00:55:23] Unknown:
Right. I think it needs to be like, this idea that it's, like, the skins you have that are, like, locked in a game or it's your gamer tag that's unique, that can't be the incentive. Like, the incentive needs to be a very clear incentive. It needs to be very obvious what the company's policy is. And and because otherwise, you end up having, you know, these fucked up situations where, like, a gamer puts in, you know, 8 100 5000 hours into a game or something, and then everything they put in is just taken away from something, like, opaque policy, and, like, no one wants that. That's obviously, horrible. But, Con, like, you so this is a great time to transition. We're an hour into this show.
I do like to flex on on on other people, and that this show specifically is free and open. We have no ads, no sponsors, no paywalls. It's available for everyone fully to download. So when I say that we're 56 minutes into the show, we are in fact 56 minutes in regardless of where you listen to it. I think it's a great time to transfer into Lightning specifically because one of the things is is we would already have money in triple a games. We the the reason we have V Bucks rather than US dollars, in my opinion, in Fortnite is Technical. Is because of regulations.
It's because it's too difficult and too much friction to implement real money into games. And and this is where all of a sudden Lightning and Sats can can change that that game, but there's certain issues that a lot of people don't like talking about with lightning right now because it's early, that that that gives us these pain points that we have very similar pain points that we have, in that traditional fiat world that we're talking about. Right? And and and the the reason I say it is that I I think these games would add would add money directly into the game is because I I honestly do believe that, you know, if you if you add money and real money into a game in a you you create it so gamers can earn money playing your game, that it creates a viral a viral feedback loop that that will make your game more popular.
So so with that all said, this is a perfect this is why it's so fucking good that I have both of you on. So Khan went with he sets up a full Neutrino you run like a lightning node, a light lightning node that use Neutrino directly in the client of the game so that the user is it's a non custodial lightning experience. And you try and make it as frictionless as possible. I know you've been having a lot of pain with that, and I think you're transitioning away from that. So I do wanna talk about that. But then on the opposite side, we have Andre at Zebedee, where they provided they decided to go completely custodial because it it has way less friction on the tech side.
So so yours has Khan's implementation has more more friction on on the tech side, and Zebedee's solution has more friction on the regulatory side. I had to confirm my email address. I had to and now now I I guess I can make 250,000 sats a a day or something, and then I have to KYC because it's custodial, which is the same friction that, like, a Fortnite would have if they added PayPal or something. Can we talk about this? Can we, like, talk about, like I mean, I look. The at the end of the day, it's actually a very similar situation as with especially with streaming. I mean, look, we're streaming through Twitch. For someone who's trying to operate a show like this, where if I wanted to collect tips, like, the holy grail of collecting tips and gamifying the experience of you streaming stats to me while you're watching the show is if I have a static QR code.
So I think I think the holy grail, and I think both of you guys would agree with me, what we want is the ability for a streamer to have a static QR code that's completely non custodial with no KYC, and anyone can scan it at any time and pay that streamer, and and and there's no friction and it's permissionless or permission as permissionless as possible. That's the holy grail. That's where we're going. Can we talk about, you know, the trade offs here and and what we're what you guys are battling in in real time?
[00:59:45] Unknown:
Do you do you want me to start? I mean, I have a lot to talk about Yes. Go. Starting. Yeah. Go. Why or why did we want to do this neutrino stuff? We're based in Germany. Germany is very strict. You have a lot of rules. You cannot simply store funds for your users. Right? So we thought not only would it be really cool, and it's entirely possible to do that, that our users run their own node, but we basically thought it was mandatory. And so what we did is our game has this launcher, which is a full LND in neutrino mode, and the user has full custody over his coins. But as you said, it has a lot of pain points. It's the access is horrible. We need a because users need to be online every I don't know. It's if they're online often, we didn't find, like, how how much they really need to to be online, but there's so many pain points.
And this the you the technical UX pain points, but then also the liquidity that we do provide. Right? So we we I said earlier that a user needs to play 5 k Sats to earn a channel. That's horrible UX. And, also, we need to then provide the liquidity for the channel. So we have someone who plays for for, I don't know, a good 2 days happy hours or 2 evenings happy hour. He earns his 5 k SATs. Now we open a channel with, I think, 60 k is what we open with. Now these 60 k sats are locked. And we have, 1600 users, so not everyone has a channel yet, but it's a lot of liquidity we need to lock up. And, yeah, it's it's such a pain point, which is why we never had Linux and Mac support. And I think it is the goal, and what you set with the steady QR code, it was it was basically possible. You could key send to a user. Right? Which is what we did, which is pretty cool. But, yeah, what we're switching to is, we show a QR code. You need to scan it with your wallet, which, supports lnurlout, which which Prius does, for example, or Phoenix does. And then you're locked in with your wallet. The Satoshi as well? Or no? Yet. Not yet. I I I asked Phoenix.
Right?
[01:02:05] Unknown:
Yes. Breeze and and Phoenix. Breeze and Phoenix are the ideal mobile noncustodial
[01:02:10] Unknown:
wallets for for new users. I would agree. Right? Yeah. I would agree. So Yeah. What Breeze is doing is what we did. Right? But they focus their whole, attention to to to this
[01:02:22] Unknown:
because they also have a neutrino node on on on the phone. But we also wanted to create a game. So for us, it's just okay. We can't do both. When you switch to that, con when you switch to that, you're switching to a custodial model. Right? Like, you're gonna hold the stats for people until they're ready to withdraw.
[01:02:37] Unknown:
Yeah. But we will just allow whatever regulatory will will need us to, basically. I think it's fine. Yeah. The friction in in lighting would be so simple. You play around, and then you see a QR code, and you need to withdraw, basically.
[01:02:52] Unknown:
But the problem comes into there's no with Phoenix and and Breeze, I can't get a static QR code that I can post on the stream, for instance, right now. Right? Like, even something like tipping dot me, which is what I'm currently using if you wanna support the show, tipping dot me slash at mattunderdashodel. Like, that's custodial. That's completely custodial, and it's not even a static QR code. It's not lnurl.
[01:03:17] Unknown:
So we we have a project which where where you could connect your note and which would allow you to have a steady QR code, which uses lnurl pay, and you would send an invoice to the wallet then, which is which is what we use for for, our Twitch stream where you can pay the user. So there is a way with this lnurl scheme, but there's not really a way yet for for people to enable it without, like, this proxy type of thing. But I it's it's it's entirely possible with lnurl pay to have a static QR code which pays to your noncustodial
[01:03:50] Unknown:
node. There's just not too close to that. Right? We're close Yeah. We gotta be close to that. Like like so, basically, what as as as a gaming company, what you what you want is you want a Breeze or a Phoenix, like an Async or something to figure out a way to make it so that your gamers can just provide a QR code, and then you don't even need I guess, if you could do it in house, Andre, so you actually built a wallet. You built a separate wallet. Yeah. Let me cbd.gg. Let's talk about, you know, what what the thought is into how that ended up.
[01:04:21] Unknown:
Sure. Let me just, touch on one thing. I think the, you know, Breeze and and Phoenix are great, and I think there are technicals that are in the works from, multiple implementations in different ways, to solve the issue of static QR codes and so forth. I know in the LND front, there is, you know, the the full blown AMP support, which would provide static QR codes for some static charges. And I know on the c lightning front, Rusty's working on on lightning offers, which is, you know, much more expensive. Not not expensive, but expensive than, you know, the the general, like, just l n u r l pay. It has many more features, but it's also being worked on. So I don't think it's that far off to imagine a world where a non custodial lightning wallet, if online, could have a static QR code without a separate proxy. I think that's that's that's sooner than than not. But, we're talking about, you know, on the lightning side of things and the implementation.
So there is a little bit of of of technical things to go through there. On the on the Zebedee front, so, you know, we, the the wallet was something we want we wanted to do for a while, even before Zebedee started. It's something that I've been toying with. And and really, it's it's from experience, talking to, other folks that aren't as technical, and and just generally, you know, into the Bitcoin world. It's it's very confusing. Like, all of this is super, super complex to them. Right? And, you know, there there are wallets that we could we could send in to, you know, your your newbie friend, and they would be able to pick it up. But it's still you still need to understand the channels, and you still need to understand, like, why couldn't I do x and why couldn't I perform y transaction? And, so, our view was that, to onboard the next, you know, 1,000,000, 10,000,000, a 1,000,000,000, 5,000,000, people, we, can't really depend and or wait on that the technicals to be there. I think, you know, our take was that, look, we can provide the UX. We can abstract this this massive complexity, and take care of that. So we Zebedee is not a gaming studio. Zebedee is an infrastructure provider. We, happen to create some games, and we happen to create products, geared towards the gaming world because that's that's our vertical. But, we're not trying to be a gaming studio competing with triple a games and and so forth. So, the wallet, what it what it does is it's like you said, it's a custodial wallet where, you're you go from from 0 to lightning, within, you know, an email password flow.
So so it's very familiar. It does there are trade offs, and I don't think there's anything that Donna Lab commenting, unfortunately not with. But, so, it's it's custodial in the sense that that we hold the funds for you. But, you know, with lightning, I think one of the things we we like to say is you don't have to keep it. Keep it as much as you keep on your wallet in your back pocket. Right? It's not meant to be your your Bitcoin wallet where you're you're storing your funds, and this is this is gaming money. Right? This is, you know, your $50 on the on your wallet. It's a $10, $50. So because Lightning is so fast, if you whether you have a node or whether your exchange supports Lightning or whether you, you know, you have a way to send it out, you can you can send it out at the end of the day, at the end of the week, whatever.
One one of the things that I, you know, I I definitely don't like about the way, certain companies have handled the the custodialness of of Bitcoin is, the situation that you talk about sometimes, Matt, which is like the locking the funds. It's like locking your locking your funds until you KYC.
[01:07:54] Unknown:
Shock and KYC is actually like a it's a common term now. I I think I created it. I'm not sure.
[01:08:00] Unknown:
Yeah. So I I don't think, like, you know, we don't know the future, but this is something I stand by, and and I really don't want to ever be in a position where we have to do that. And I I I'd like to say that we would never do that, because, the the way we set it up is, look, you have certain limits, and the limits reach on the daily. And then if you reach those limits, okay, tomorrow, you can you can take it your your sets out. It's fine. Like, we're not we're not in a position where we're gonna, you know, do what what's called shotgun, verification. So, but because we were talking about regulations and stuff, so be because we're a custodial, platform and we're trying to be, an infrastructure provider for, your large studios. Right? The the the the goal really here is, like you were saying earlier, is to partner with large studios to to bring this into a much larger audience.
And, unfortunately, for them, there's absolutely no way that they would do that with a nonregulated company. There it's just not a future for them. They may even become regulated themselves in order to do it. So we are pursuing all of the licenses and all the things, and, there are certain things that we push back on and there are certain things that we try to to work around. Right now, for example, we we only support Lightning, and I think that's great because Lightning is inherently, different than on chain Bitcoin, and and there are benefits to that. So, we we only support Lightning. We have plans for on chain, but but we don't yet. And, there are limits which are risk based. Right? I think, if we keep limits low and people are playing games, that's fine. You wanna play games, you you wanna put $5 here, $10 here, that's totally fine. We we have no issue, and there's no verification. There's nothing needed. You download the wallet. You use it. That's fine.
If you're taking the wallet for a little bit more than your your daily gaming and you wanna have some funds, the the reality is that we must, know if you're doing, you know, $200 worth of transactions back and forth, you're buying things here, you're buying things there. At this point, we have to have some information. So it it does provide a much, much better UX, at a trade off. Right? And I think that what Bitcoin enables is these types of trade offs. If you'd like to be fully self sovereign, you have that opportunity, and all of our services are fully interoperable with your node, with your wallets, with any of the wallets. Everything is is fine.
It's about having options. If you don't have the option, I think it's a problem, but you do have the option. And so if you'd like to go to introduce your friend to Bitcoin, what happens a lot is people say, hey. Download Coinbase. Why is that? It's it's not self sovereign, but it's because it's the simplest UX. It's the it's the, you know, the the best way to do it. But then you you want to teach them. You want to educate them to learn about the other topics and the other fronts that Bitcoin enables in in the case, you know, self sovereignty. So, we we do that for for a reason. Like, look, once you reach our limits, either you do a or you do b, and and we can provide you, you know, help and guidance on on how to do those.
But I I like to just say, like, I don't think a user removing the funds from Infuse and then putting them into Wallet or Satoshia or Breeze or Phoenix means that we lost a customer. Like, I don't see it that way. Right? I think, our wallet is not necessarily meant to be hosting, you know, 5 Bitcoin worth. That's not the point. It's a lightning wallet. It's it's meant to be your gaming wallet. So I I don't see it as losing a a user or a customer. Like, we actually see it as, you know, they're taking the the right steps to be at a position where they're more self sovereign or where they're more in control of their keys or whatever they'd like to do. So Bitcoin enables that, And I think we we're using, the technology of it and and and abstracting a lot of the UX, the the complexities to provide the best UX to onboard the other the other million.
[01:11:39] Unknown:
Comes at a trade off, but, that's that's the reality. I mean, I I first of all, I appreciate you being so discreet with the freaks and with myself, and, and that's also my I'm not trying to hide anything. Right? It's Yeah. I mean, look look look, Andre, I know you you've always been discreet with me in bars, but, I mean, we're public here. So I I do appreciate the discretion. It does it does go a long way. I do think one of the underrated nice things about custodial lightning is that you are able to, with relatively little friction, withdraw. Right? Yeah. So you can withdraw frequently. And this is, you know, why I continue to use tip and dot me, is that I just constantly I'm I'm just constantly withdrawing, and it's it's a fine trade off for me because worst comes to worst. I think ultimately at some point that site's gonna get shut down, and I'll lose $50 worth of Bitcoin or $75 worth of Bitcoin, and it's a trade off I'm willing to make for just convenience. It's a convenience trade off. It's a very easy to use service.
The the real concern, right, is ultimately if regulators clamp down and say that 250,000 sats per day is is too much, and they try and make it lower and lower and lower, and then you kinda you kinda have to come up with something else. But but meanwhile, right now, for most gamers, 250,000 sats. What is that? It's like a $150. Like, that's a pretty reasonable, I think that's a pretty reasonable trade off to make for just email verification for convenience sake. But let's be honest, I'm a Bitcoiner. Right? Ultimately, I want some random 13 year old in Singapore to win, like, the $10,000,000 jackpot, completely anonymously to his own node. Right? Like, that that that's where I want us to be at. Right?
[01:13:20] Unknown:
And I think there, we were saying, like, you can you can withdraw often and frequently. I think, that's something, I'm just gonna it's fine to talk about it. We're we're looking into not not looking. We have, like, prototypes and we're we're developing, the the you know, everyone's talking about streaming sats. Right? And, what we're gonna do is essentially allow you to create what what were we saying? Like, you you select another payment or another node, another something, through an lnurl pay. So in the sense of of of, Constantine talking about Bitcoin bouncing on, it's like, look. Here's my node and here's my lnurlpay QR code. So you will be able to scan it with your Zebedee wallet and then dictate, you know, every so often, send this many sats to this wallet until x. Right? And so it's empty or until I reach 50,000 sats or whatever. And you'll be able to let that happen, period. Like, the wallet is closed and on your phone and and so you're you're just consistently taking funds out of Zebedee into whatever you'd like it to be.
So once again, it's facilitating, the the the onboarding and the use of of lightning and and and games and so forth, but not really removing your ability to, be slightly more private and slightly more sovereign where, you know, you consistently just withdraw. You don't even need to do it manually. You set it up once, and then you just you just have recurring streaming of payments, back to a to a note of yours. So, there are steps in that direction, and I think there are technical steps too. I think there are things that are happening in lightning that will provide us, with with some more capabilities on the on the protocol layer.
But,
[01:14:53] Unknown:
yeah, that it's it's it's where we where we stand now. Are you I mean, so this is an issue that is also facing Sphinx chat. Mhmm. Is is is this idea it's it's trying to make lightning work in a non custodial fashion. I I mean, I think most importantly is because of regulations, because we don't want the KYC friction. And what's really interesting about what they did, I don't know if it's implementable with gamers, and this is Con. This is what I thought was really cool that you did that you tried to you tried to go this route where you just implemented a Neutrino node in in the software itself. Is that this idea is they they just add they're calling it they're calling it the Uncle Jim model, but they're also calling it multitenant. I think it's kinda funny and cool that uncle Jim is, like, just a known nomenclature in this case now. All the freaks know it.
But, they had this multi tenant model, right, where, like, you can run Sphinx on your Umbral as a podcaster, and then everyone you on onboard into your Sphinx chat, you onboard through your own node instead of them running the node. Because if they ran the node, then all of a sudden you start entering custodial you you enter regulatory gray areas and stuff. And and a perfect analogy in the gaming world, I think, is I own the new Xbox. I don't know what I don't know what do they call it now? The Xbox? I have the nicest one. Xbox 1 x or something. I don't know. Yeah. Something like that. They make they they make the naming really confusing now.
And, they have a remote gaming feature, so I can game from any mainstream Android or iPhone, iOS device. But the the the regulations dictate that even though Microsoft runs the largest cloud servers in the world, I can't I can't stream from their Azure Stack. I can't I can't stream from their globally accessible high speed servers because then all of a sudden, they have to pay the gaming companies different, you know, licensing fees and stuff. So instead, what they did was they literally implemented Node at Home, you know, into into the stack. So so your Xbox is running at home. It's it's connected to Fios. It's connected to fiber Internet, and then it it it broadcast to your to your to your, like, tablet or your phone or whatever.
It's a feature that I've never used, but it's pretty cool that I I it's it's a feature that exists purely because of the regulations. Right? And it's it's something that to me in my head makes a lot of sense. Right?
[01:17:36] Unknown:
Yeah. It's pretty cool. I mean, Google did that with Stadia where you need to buy it. Right? So they tried to do it. But with Stadia, it comes Stadia comes from Google servers, and they have licensing fees. Right? To pay you need to buy the games on Stadia. Right? So it's like a Netflix subscription even. Right. But you you can also do it with chief or something with your PC game. So With Xbox, you're streaming it to yourself.
[01:17:58] Unknown:
You're streaming the game to yourself only because of regulations, because you have to with regulations, and the the the user would have no idea.
[01:18:06] Unknown:
So if your Internet at home sucks, your streaming sucks? Then the user knows. But if the user's Internet
[01:18:12] Unknown:
is good, they just don't even realize. It's, like, very it's a very seamless kind of experience.
[01:18:18] Unknown:
I think it's similar to the Stadia model where if you have 1 gigabyte,
[01:18:21] Unknown:
you know, fiber, it's beautiful experience. But everyone else that doesn't have that, it's it's a a lesser of an experience of playing games. At least my experience so far with Stadia has not been great. No. But Andre, you're not see the you're not you don't see the difference there? Like, you have you you literally have a company that is, like, top 3 cloud server operators in the world, Microsoft, and I'm streaming the game from my $600 piece of hardware that's at home, you know, that cost less than a Nodle Dojo, and it's sitting at home, and I'm streaming it from that only because of regulations.
[01:19:00] Unknown:
Do you think it's regulations or contract mess? Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's yeah. Contract mess. Not regulations. Contract mess. But I think I I would guess they're working on cloud gaming as well. They just have figured out all all the things yet. I mean, there's a lot of talk about cloud gaming always, but I I agree that the Ang Gym model for gaming is also here yet. You also do it with Steam, and it's it works pretty pretty well. I agree. What's with Steam? How does that work? You can just, it's also it's also you can also play with friends, I think. You can play, like, games that are only designed for local co op. You can I would I don't know how how it's called, but it's like Steam friend play or something, and it really works? You can play these local games, co op, over the wire.
[01:19:47] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where you where where only one person has to own the co op. Yeah. Exactly. Which makes sense. Interesting.
[01:19:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.
[01:19:58] Unknown:
Yeah. But back to Lightning, I think, the the noncustodial, it's just Lightning is too expensive. I mean, in the last with the 10 k prices, we could afford that, but right now, we can't. So what about 3.
[01:20:12] Unknown:
Layer 3.
[01:20:14] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I think, again, if if we advance, lightning, you know, a few years, I think there are things that will become possible. Right? If we're, right now, it's very expensive to hit the chain. Like, it's just prohibitively expensive for, a game, like a single player of a single game to hit the chain every time they need to withdraw because they need to open a channel. That's prohibitively expensive. But, you know, if if you're talking about, like, multi peer channels and you're talking about, like, opening channels without, needing to hit the chain because you're you're doing some sort of, like, there's a service that pools them together and then opens a big, you know, a a single, transactional chain, opens multiple channels.
Like, there's there's many ways to make it cheaper for that and then including, like, improvements on AMP and and possibly, like, the the offer situation that that I mentioned already. So I think I think there are technical items and and and, you know, advancements that can improve it. But in general, I I agree with with the sentiment. It's it's, with Lightning, it's it's very hard to to provide that user experience right now in a non custodial way in in the game. Right? Like, as as we're speaking about. Yeah.
[01:21:25] Unknown:
I mean, this is this is, like, a a key aspect of lightning that I wanted to discuss because I think you guys are are on the front lines of it. And it it really is, like, it it is gonna be this is the next, you know, it it it is something it is the next main pain point as Bitcorders that I think we need to focus on. Right? Is this idea of making a non custodial lightning experience that is as frictionless as possible. And I think it's really cool what Breeze and Phoenix are doing. But, you know, depending on how regulators approach that, they even might not be noncustodial enough.
So it it should be interesting to see how that all plays out. Yeah. That's Yeah. There's there's different models of non custodialness.
[01:22:14] Unknown:
Right? And, yeah, Phoenix has their their own and and Breeze has their own. And, you can you can make the argument on the other side, but I think they are the, the the most noncustodios you can get now. Especially if you if you receive funds, you and then you possibly even close the channel with their, with the the upstream, right, with the Breeze and async, for example. Then you're you're truly noncustodial. But until you're doing that, you're you're still a little bit under under their umbrella. It's it's a you know, it's it's what we like to I like to say to my friends who are are not in this space. It's they they they see the price rise and all of this, and and I tell them, like, if there is no war to to be fought, then, like, did we actually win something? Right? Like, because Yes. We did win. If if there's no war, we won. No. I I understand the sense. Right? But but, it you know, there there has to be conflict. Like, there will be. It's inevitable. There will be conflict. There will be, you know, you can call it a war. But, if if there isn't one, it it was too easy. Right? It Right. Right. There there has to be, and and I think it'll start at the fringes of regulation as it as it has been for the past, you know, however long you wanna say 6, 7, 8 years. And, lightning is the next frontier, and and, you know, I I hope, Zebedee and and Donner Lab are are good, you know, people to have at the at the at the edges and and trying to to speak. And, I can I can tell you that, compliance is is one of the the most tedious things, but it's it's a necessity in in the way we designed our business model? And, we're gonna do our best to to be at a position where we can push back on things.
So I I hope to always be able to to answer these questions on on interviews like this. Yeah. Switching Yeah. Go on. Yeah. Switching a little bit. I'd love to to talk a a little bit about some things we're coming up with with Infuse, which I think is is pretty cool, you know, specifically. Yeah. So right now, in in few CS GO, we have the the tournament mode, right, which is, basically, you need to to gather people at the same time, and then the match starts. You have a warm up, and then you play around. And then, you know, basically, each each player has a a a share of the pot. What we got next, which is which is basically taken from the, the the the real notion of Ready Player 1, if you ever watched that movie, there's there's a a scene on planet Doom. Such a nerd for me to know that. There's a scene on planet on planet Doom. I've watched that movie so many times, where, the one of the I forget the character's name, but they're just going around in this planet, and it's kind of just like shooting around players. And when they when they get killed, you see the coins move out, and then they, like, grab the coins. Right? And and this is, I think, the the world that we would like to have, which is, like, you know, this world where this is the big version.
Right. Sure. Exactly. Of of the the sats are, like, part of it. It's kinda it's kinda like your life, but not not really your life. So, what we came up with is actually a new mode of of CS GO, and CS GO has lots of modes. You got competitive. You got casual. You got, you know, team deathmatch and so on. The one we have, we're calling it tournament mode. It's it's a, you know, free for all deathmatch. And then, the the the one that we're coming up with is called survival mode. And it's basically you come in and you put, like, a 1,000 sats. Right? And that's the entrance. And you basically have a 1,000 sats in your life. Like, your life in the server is a 1,000 sats. Killing someone, if you kill someone, you get their sats. So they lose, you know, 50 sats. So it's independent your score is independent of everyone else. And this is something that happens in CS go a lot is we basically remove the notion that you have to get together to play because you can just have forever running servers, and people can just come in and play and and exit at any point. Right? So they come in, they shoot around, and and they win some stats. Okay. I'm done. I wanna get out, so I I exit. But if you lose enough stats, you get kicked from the server because you you don't have any more stats to play around. Right?
So we're coming up with that, and that's really cool. We've been testing it. It's I I think we're gonna make that the main, infuse mode because it's just a little quite a bit better. And with that, we recently launched the, the on a slightly separate note, we recently launched the the Zebedee Discord bots and and Telegram bots. So, the wallet, allows you to pair it with the Discord and Telegram bots that you can add to your own servers and you can use in our servers, and you can you can use, like, commands to do sending of stats back and forth through, you know, something like z send, and then you you set it apart. So we actually added that into CS go through survivor mode. So you can imagine where, if you're playing around and you have a 1,000 sats and your buddy is here and he has, like, 20 sats, and if he dies one more time, he's gonna get kicked, you can actually z send 50 to Constantine, and then you're sending him your life. Right? You're like, hey. I'm giving you, I'm giving you stats so that you can continue here. So I think there's a lot of incentive structures that we can create around, like, team death match on this because you don't want your teammates to go out because you need bodies. So you're gonna give part of your health out to this other player. So we we're we're gonna come out with that. It's really, really exciting. And then on top of that, we're gonna come out with sponsored servers where similarly to to Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, you have, sponsors who have, you know, you know, I guess, billboards, right, on the on the maps themselves. So we're we're getting maps that are are open source maps, and we're editing those and and adding, you know, the thing here or there, and making it so that, the the entrance fee for those servers are necessarily free paid by a sponsor.
So it's a similar model. It's not it's not the same. And then lastly, we're actually playing around with the notion of audience participation, you can, you know, bring out a QR code, which is static QR code. And if your audience pays it, it affects your gameplay. The first mode that we set up is there's this drug mode in CS GO where your your vision gets skewed and you walk slower and you move around, but it gives you sats. So if you're dying in the game, you can actually hide and get your your audience like, hey. Give me sats. So they give you life and you continue, but your gameplay is all screwed up, so you can't see straight and you can't move right or left. So the audience dig that. Yeah. The audience moves from passive to be an active audience member, and I think that's really powerful. So there's a few things coming to 10fuse that we're really excited for.
[01:28:53] Unknown:
The there's almost, like, 2 different elements. It's like, the idea of of building a platform that is fun for the average user versus, you know, we have this whole new streamer culture. Right? You know, we're broadcasting on Twitch right now, where you could build a cool tool that is just a cool game that is just designed for, like, the top a 100 streamers, with with it you're right with incentive setup that their audience is, like, basically playing the game with them, by by pushing stats through them.
[01:29:26] Unknown:
It's it's similar to to Constantine's Bitcoin Bounty where, like, the audience can put a bounty on someone else. And so you're actually putting a bounty on a player who you actually want to get killed because the fact that there's more bounty on their head, it means that so whoever kills them gets more stats. So it changes the dynamic completely. We have something similar with Bitcoin rally as well where, given enough, power ups from the audience, a this this quote unquote god mode happens and then there's like thunder and lightning all over the screen and you can't really see straight and you're hitting the walls. And and, you know, the first player that was was at the front, you know, at the end of the this, like, 15 second thing is the 3rd player, and it completely changes the, the the the gameplay. So we're we're really excited for for these types of of, you know, breaking the audience, breaking the the wall between the audience and the game.
And and this is this goes back to to what I was saying about Zebedee. We, we actually started with, a a developer dashboard because we thought, you know, why wouldn't gamers want to build games with Bitcoin? This is so simple and straightforward. Like, why would you not want this? But it's but it's early days, and I think, it's it's, you know, something that we need to show. We need to provide options and and real games to to prove to the the current gaming industry that, like, this is possible. This is real. This is what we can enable. So I think, Bitcoin Bouncing Out was was a great game to showcase that because it's a complete game. Right? Like, you have the entire experience. You have the shooting. You have the the dying. You have all of it.
And I think, CS GO brings it on another level because CS GO is, you know, quote unquote a sweep a triple a game. It's like a full on, you know, massive game, and I think it takes that a step further. So, you know, I think the the reason why we're not a gaming studio is because it's an uphill battle against giants. And so we are infrastructure providers and and consumer products for the gaming industry as a whole. So we're actually focusing a lot on streaming. We're focusing a lot on on the audience participation, right, in Mincox. That's a really big piece of it, because we want to prove the new types of things and interactions that are enabled by lightning. Because changing you know, removing your fiat rails and putting lightning, it's great. Right? But it it's it's it's not that much better. The experience of someone going to the deli down the street or the bodega and paying with a an Apple Pay or ping by scanning a QR code. Like, those experiences are not that much better. Right? Like, it it it it's not a 10 x improvement or a 100 x improvement. And for a user to change their ways, you really need that 10 x improvement. You really need, it needs to be really clearly better. Right? It it it shouldn't be a question of if or when. And I think Lightning enables things that aren't possible with the dollar. Right now you have, you were mentioning this earlier, Matt. Like you have the the cheapest thing you can buy online period 2 dollars is like 99¢.
Like, that's the cheapest thing. And and that's an app store. And really, it's like 129 because they add tax on it. So Mhmm. 999¢ is the the the cheapest. And with with Lightning, you can go, like I was saying, all the way to 1 sat and possibly later on, even millisats. So there are types of interactions that are inherently impossible with legacy infrastructure, and it's inherently, you know, trivial with Lightning. And I think that's what we want to push forward. The same sort of things that, Constantine and Bitcoin Bouncing Hunter are pushing forward. These new types of interactions that aren't possible.
[01:32:51] Unknown:
It's always gonna be the challengers. It's always gonna be the challengers that innovate. You know, League of Legends isn't gonna innovate. Call of Duty didn't innovate. Yep. Right? They didn't innovate. Fortnite came in. Epic came in. They innovated. And no, really, the other game innovated. What was that first, such a dick. Yeah. Pubg? Pubg. Yeah. They were the first ones to fucking innovate. Right? And then they just got their asses handed to them by Epic Games. But, this idea, right, that that we're gonna have triple a games just add stats will never fucking happen at first. They need to they need to feel like their pants are on fire before they do it. Yeah. I agree.
[01:33:29] Unknown:
But I think modding is probably a big thing. So I think you can mod a game to to have lightning. And then maybe if these just wanted, they will play on infused servers versus normal servers. So I think modding with modding, it's entirely possible.
[01:33:46] Unknown:
That's the idea behind Infuse. Right? It's That's fun. Games.
[01:33:50] Unknown:
That's fun. You're, like, sticking your foot in the door, you know, but that's different, right, than the game shipping with fucking Sass. Yeah. That's
[01:33:57] Unknown:
true. That's true. It's it's the difference between an a pop up and a native advertiser. Right? It's built into the fabric of it. And I think I think that, Matt, you're spot on where, there's no incentive whatsoever for them at this point. Right? Not only is is the infrastructure not there for the level of, like, Steam is seeing, you know, 20,000,000 active users concurrently. Like, we are not at a position where Lightning is ready for 20,000,000 concurrent users making payments up and down. I don't know that that we're there yet. I think I would like to say we're not, but we will be soon. So, you know, there's very little incentive. They control the rails. They control the economy. They they, you know, they do whatever they want. I think, you know, Infuse and and CS GO is is a way to show them what's out there. Like, this is what's new, on a real game. Right? And and and it's a real as in, like, on a on a, you know, triple a big big title game.
And we can show it. Okay. And then let's say we get a bunch of traction. Okay. Then we get a bunch of servers. Okay. We get a bunch of gamers. And then we start seeing people want different games. So okay. Let's infuse Minecraft. Let's infuse DOTA 2. Let's infuse, League of Legends. Let's infuse Fortnite. There's a bunch of games that we can't infuse because of the way they are and the way they're set up, but there's a bunch of games we can. You know, so imagine a future where we have Minecraft infused, DOTA 2 infused, CS GO Minecraft is already infused.
[01:35:14] Unknown:
We did that first.
[01:35:16] Unknown:
Yeah. So, you know, you get to a place where it's it's inevitable that they will start asking questions. It it's it's impossible for them to see traction elsewhere. It's it's similarly to Among Us. Right? There will eventually be a game. I I don't think it's the games that we're talking about right now, but there will eventually be a game that is lightning powered and Bitcoin powered, and it will blow up the same way you have Among Us, which is a game that is relatively simple, but it just exploded. That's a super game. Right. And and it's it's fun to play with friends, but, you know, that that's basically it. It's like not not my fault. Secret Hitler. Right?
[01:35:51] Unknown:
That's one way to put it. Yeah. But, I mean, it's a it's a known game format. Right? Right.
[01:35:57] Unknown:
And
[01:35:58] Unknown:
and I think Verbal or mafia or what's Right. Right. Secretively. Right. Right. Where there's one person's the mole, and you're trying to figure out the moles. Right?
[01:36:06] Unknown:
Didn't know that. Yeah. Exactly. How would you because there's open source versions of it, how would you infuse lightning there in in a among us type game or secret Hitler type game?
[01:36:18] Unknown:
I think for for those games, there's, you know, what we can infuse at the moment, are servers that we can host. So if we can host the server of Among Us, we and, you know, get some information from that server, we should be able to infuse it. So it's it's not necessarily it's what I was saying earlier. It's not necessarily that every game can be infused. And then there are also big, publishers that completely disable that, like, capability. So for example, Epic Games has in their terms of service, big and bold. We do not allow any cryptocurrency in our games. Like, so if Really?
Yeah. So let's say we add it. Wow. Right? Even even as a mod even as a mod, let's assume that we add it and then we get a little bit of attraction. All it takes is one person from the Fortnite world and and Epic Games and be like, oh, these guys are doing this. It's illegal. Shut them up. Welcome. Right? But the team has that as well, by the way.
[01:37:12] Unknown:
So as well? Like, tolls under the yeah. Because we were rejected from Steam, Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, because we use, cryptocurrencies. Every payment that goes through a Steam game must be done via Steam Wallet.
[01:37:26] Unknown:
I feel like they could at least they could at least do us the respect of saying Bitcoin instead of cryptocurrency. Like, if you're gonna ban us in the terms and conditions, at least be like Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency. And others. That's true. Con, do you see this question from Sam Weiner Yeah. Or Weiner? He wants to know if if you'll be creating new maps for Bitcoin bounty hunt?
[01:37:46] Unknown:
So the cool thing is, I already announced on MintGox that's Bitcoin Bounty Hunt. Everything that all the back ends, all the stuff that you that uses the payments and stuff will be open sourced next month. So while we might currently not work on new maps, creating new maps is super easy, and you will be able to or creators will be easily able to create their own maps, and then they will be able to monetize creating those maps. So because we think that content creation is pretty cool, we can monetize it in Bitcoin Bounty. And so if your map gets played, you will get sent sats. So and we want to do this. So it will be open source, and everyone can create maps, and we might have a DAS 2 competitor on Bitcoin Bounty, and We're gonna have, like, a 1000000 maps. There's gonna be a fucking insane amount of maps.
Yeah. And we have we have community hosted servers and stuff like this because do you ever
[01:38:47] Unknown:
do you remember that do you know that game, the motorcycle game that I'm talking about that you had community generated map? I know what you mean. It's like happy days or something. It's like every game every map was, like, glitchy as fuck, though. Like, there was, like, it was, like, I I feel like if they could make stats on it, maybe the the maps would not be so extreme. They'd be more, like, legitimate. You know? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like like, it was it was you had to ride the you had to ride the the motorbike, and you had to keep you couldn't fall off the motorbike. It was a side scroller. And they would make the map where you would do, like, insane loops and shit, and it was just, like, always like like, they were rewarded basically for going as aggressive as fucking possible, but, like, we never finished the track. It was just, like, impossible to finish the track in in the user created modes, at least the big ones.
Yep. But I feel like if if you add in an incentive for people to create these user created tracks or user created maps, Trials. Yep. Thank you, BTC pins. So In the comments. If you added an incentive there, then maybe they'll actually polish it out. Right?
[01:39:56] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I mean, a server hoster would decide to what what map he will want to have in the rotation, so you won't have as many shitty maps probably.
[01:40:08] Unknown:
And I think that that, if it's called trials, isn't yeah. I think it's trials. It's definitely trials. It's a 100% trials is the game I'm talking about.
[01:40:15] Unknown:
Great game. There's,
[01:40:17] Unknown:
there's also the I I know we're seeing the holy grail is, you know, getting, triple a's game studios to adopt this. But we, you know, we we forget, sometimes that, I don't I don't know if you remember this, but Kongregate, Milliclip, and all of these, you know, portals of of web games, they're seeing millions and millions of users a month still. Like, we're talking we're talking about like there's a lot of small, tiny web based games that can very easily introduce Sats. And there's no walled garden to be worried about. There's no, you know, this and that that can't be done. And, you know, it it it again, it changes the incentives. I think there's really cool things that can be done at a smaller scale similar to Among Us. Right? We could infuse Among Us or a a a game like it. And and it doesn't have, like, the sharpest, and the crispest and and polygons on all over the place because it's so high def. Right? It's it's, it's just the game based on the game itself. And it's a small game and it's great and it has stats. And Right. Those stats can speak to the other game over there and then another game and you can get it out and you can do this. And, so there, you know, there is this whole, world of of, like, the long tail of indie game developers and web based games that aren't necessarily your triple a games, that that, you know, we're definitely seeing some interest in people asking. After seeing CS GO and after seeing Bitcoin Bounty Hunt and and the games we show at Mincox, it's like, oh, how do I get started? And they're like, oh, here's the dashboard. Here's how you get started, and here's this, this, and that.
So there is interest, you know, not only from the the triple a on on that side because there's there's little incentive for them now, but, on the indie game side, there's a lot of of incentives for them to add it. I think there's anywhere from, like, 500 to a 1000, games deployed to the App Store every day, man. That's just like it's absurd number. It's so saturated. So you need to stand out. If your game is just another tiny game, you're talking, like, 0.0001% chance of your game getting user base. But if you add a new incentive thing, and maybe you add Bitcoin and you take advantage of the trend that we're seeing now, maybe you can set yourself apart. Right? And your game can can be set apart and, like, oh, okay. This is But that's what I'm saying. Right? It's like is is, you know, people under under count,
[01:42:33] Unknown:
you know, non gamers under count the the the the significance of the fact that we're adding stats to games. Like, I I think, like, it's gonna be a fucking massive I mean, Farmville, what was the what was the parent company of Farmville? You know who I'm talking about. Right? Yeah. Is it Zynga? Zynga? Zynga. Right? Like like that whole idea of, like, the mobile gaming format, came out of nowhere. It, like, it completely came out of nowhere and all of a sudden everyone was fucking doing it. Right? Like, if if if you have a solid setup if if all it takes is one one small company in the mobile sphere that fucking kills it with sats in the game, and then all of a sudden, every shitty fucking app in the App Store, every single shitty game in the App Store is gonna be the derivative of that same exact product.
[01:43:28] Unknown:
I agree. I think it's a network effect I think it's a network effect thing. It's gonna take one game to to to let's just call it blow up. Right? Like, the the same scenario of Among Us or Lightsaber, in VR, like pub PUBG or all of them. And, you know, it it it'll take one of those that sets the standard, and then people are like, oh, this is where we're headed. So let's focus on that. And then I think it's it's, you know, down uphill from here. Not downhill because it's a it's a good thing. Yeah. That's I agree. Size. Yeah.
[01:44:01] Unknown:
But, as a current game developer, I can only say creating games is super hard. So Bitcoin Bounty, and this is our first game. It's What a it's hell. Created a good game, though, dude. You created, like, a really solid, like, high development game.
[01:44:16] Unknown:
So I guess. To your speed. I don't know that I yeah. Props, man. I don't know that I I that. Personally, I'm not a game developer, but, talking to to game devs,
[01:44:26] Unknown:
you know, on a weekly basis and then talking to you and and Chris and so on, and it's just like I I know nothing of that world. Yeah. I am not a developer at all, and that seems like what you built is you did a fucking great job so far. So I'm very proud of you, and I I look forward to seeing the iterations over there. So I wanna jump into what the fuck Mincox is. But before I do that, I just wanna do a quick shill to all of our Twitch, viewers, because we've been trying to go hard in the paint on Twitch. These guys have, like, a bunch of Twitch channels. You can go to twitch.tv/donnerlab.
That's Bitcoin Bounty Hunts main twitch.tv. You can go to mint gox, twitch.tv/mint gox tv is, where they do mintgox. We're about to talk about mintgox. Then you can also do twitch.tv/ zebedee. Io. Yep. Subscribe to that. So if you're a Twitch subscriber here, subscribe to all of those. I'm trying to figure out Twitch. I think we can, like, rebroadcast each other. So, ideally, what I would like is for Citadel Dispatch's Twitch to just constantly have stats gaming going on. I think, like, that's, like, kind of the policy. So I plan to to republish you guys. I I I know that's a possibility. I don't know how that works.
[01:45:40] Unknown:
So if you start You can tell me. Show started, we already had 2 new advertisers. And if you go to our Twitch right now, you can you can now see all the advertisers that are in the game, which is a pretty cool new feature. Awesome. That's awesome. So now if if your image gets approved, you you directly see it in the game. So we got Bitcoin Bitcoin runners and, who was who as well? Flip at Bitcoin Magazine. These are 2 new advertisers we just got. I like Flip.
[01:46:13] Unknown:
And the other thing is we got Quinn Solo in the chat, quinsolo.com. He has reached out to me. He's a good friend. He wants to do giveaways on this show, for Bitcoin development, for free open source development. I'm not exactly sure how we're gonna do those giveaways yet. So I want the freaks to come into the Swinx chat. I want the freaks to reach out to me on DM and Keybase and in this chat right now and and and say how we should do those giveaways. We're gonna do them we're gonna start next week, and and let's do it in, like, a kosher way. Like, I don't wanna I'm not trying to buy engagement. I don't want retweets. I don't want likes. I don't want subscriptions, but I wanna do it in a way that rewards, the freaks that join us on Bitcoin Tuesdays live, with some cool merch because, what Quinsolo builds over there is is is really fucking dope.
With all that said, Mint Gox, what the fuck is Mint Gox?
[01:47:08] Unknown:
Alright. I'll take this one. So Mint Gox was a response to to COVID. So Zebedee, last year, we actually had our technology was ready. We got, games to show, and then we're basically, at the final stages of planning our conference roadshow where we, you know, we basically, go to this conference. We show the technology and and showing it in person and and seeing the reaction of people is is instant. Like, when they get it, they get it, and you see this light pop in their head and and they really get the idea of Bitcoin and games and so forth. And then and then everything got canceled. Right? So we we basically got to a point where we needed to to find other ways to show, to showcase what we can do, what what's possible. And so we we decided, alongside, a few other players, including Constantine and Donald Lab, and then, Jack Everett at Thunder Games who creates Bitcoin bound Bitcoin bounce and and turbo 84, and then, Desiree, Dickerson from Lightning Labs, and us at Zebedee. So we basically got together and and decided, you know, we need, to be able to to showcase these things. And so what if we created an event that was, a little bit more than just, you know, looking at people over hangouts and streaming games, but was a little bit more involved.
But it was geared specifically for gaming with Bitcoin. So Minkox became started in March of 2020, and now we're, we're a year end actually. That's that's insane. And, it's it's a it's a monthly event that happens on on the last Sunday of every month where we get together, audience members, game developers, participants, everyone, and and we do a bunch of esports tournaments. So we have an esports tournament for Bitcoin Bounty Hunt every time. We have, esports tournaments for CS GO tour, infuse CS GO matches. We have tournaments for Bitcoin rally, and and we're, you know, consistently adding more. We have tournaments for Bitcoin Balance and Turbo 84. And so as an audience member, you go to mintgox.com, and, you you land on this dashboard.
Right now, you would only see the agenda of the event, but on the day of the event, you you land on this dashboard where you see a stream in the middle, and then you have a bunch of tools around it, which are lightning enabled. So you can play games inside of the same stream. So you can play Sarutobi, which is a simple game similar to a a a flappy bird type game where you can get, you know, you're basically trying to get farther into the game and and and, you know, there's sats in that game and and coins. And you can play, there's a faucet game called sats stacker where it's basically a faucet where people can get involved, and I don't have any stats. No problem. Play stat stacker and get some stats.
And so what we wanna do is showcase what's what's possible with lightning, and we've been doing that every month. And recently, we we basically reached a point where all of the prizes that we're giving out total up to 10,000,000 satoshis. So we're talking about, like, point 1 of a Bitcoin. The the next mint gox that we have is this Sunday. So today's Tuesday. So next Sunday, 28th, I believe. And that's mint gox, 14. So we've done mintgox, you know, there's the general mintgox.com. We've done 2 or 3 mintgox geared to the Asian market because there's a large demand there too. And we hope to expand into the the South American market as there's quite a bit of of demand and and user base there as well. And we're always looking for new game developers. If you have a game that that is using Bitcoin in some way, shape, or form, please reach out. We're we're very friendly, and we want to to showcase, what what's possible.
So that's MintGox, and and we've been doing it for a while. I think it's a great way for, one one I was saying earlier, one of the big problems that game developers have is unless you're a a big studio that has, you know, budget to to do PR and and marketing, you're you're going against the the the the grain here because, like I said, there's, like, hundreds of games deployed, every day of every week and, that it's just completely saturated. But if you have Bitcoin in your game, you now have a dedicated spot where you can, not only test your game, get get testers, get feedback, and so forth. But if your game is ready in its in its at its peak, you know, let's actually host tournaments. Let's actually host users playing because the user base is here. There are plenty of people interested in this in this front and in these Bitcoin enabled games, but, you know, we we need we basically need more games. So that's what we're we're helping to do. So, I actually just, something that hasn't been announced, but, I I checked with with Mission Control, and I and then, basically, it's okay to talk about it.
We we are actually hosting, basically hosting a 2 day, hybrid event at Bitcoin 2021, where, it's a live there's gonna be a bunch of live things. There's gonna be a bunch of things that you can join remotely. There's tournaments for all the games that we talked about. And gonna be doing as fuck. Yeah. And without giving too much, we actually have a CS GO tournament where, companies can actually sign up for us. So, we aim to have, you know, this company versus this company, and we get 5 people aside, and then we have CS GO matches, whether it's it's local to to Miami in Bitcoin 2021 or remote because all of all of our systems have a lot of remote people is the plan. Exactly. Yeah. So so that's So I've been actually consulting on the on the Bitcoin Magazine side.
Oh, I know. I know you knew, so I yeah.
[01:52:33] Unknown:
I mean I mean, but the idea is right? Like, the idea is that we're we're the majority of people are gonna be coming in through remote. Right?
[01:52:39] Unknown:
Yeah. So we'll have, even even some of our, team members are gonna likely gonna be unable to to come, right, because of restrictions and so forth. So, we will make it entirely hybrid. So you can participate from home, and you can participate from the the event. And, you have the same chances of winning, and you have the same chances of, of of participating. So, you know, get if you have friends and you wanna participate in the in the, you know, tournaments and the games, you know, start prepping with some friends, and and we can possibly get some teams made. We're gonna announce a lot of these things in the coming weeks, but it's it's gonna be an awesome time, man. I'm I'm super excited.
[01:53:20] Unknown:
I mean, it should be the the largest, in person
[01:53:25] Unknown:
Bitcoin gaming and power. Esports. Yeah. That's the goal.
[01:53:28] Unknown:
Yeah. So if any company needs a good CS GO player, I'm free. I was
[01:53:34] Unknown:
one below global elite. I'm free What happened, Con? What happened? Why were you just only 1 below?
[01:53:41] Unknown:
Because, I don't know. I I was too old already. No. Probably not.
[01:53:48] Unknown:
Yeah. You you were 16. You're past the age. Yeah. Current age. Yeah. Past the prime age. It should be really excited. I I I'm really really pumped for it. There's lots of of prizes. If you like winning Bitcoin, you know, just just get involved. There's,
[01:54:01] Unknown:
plenty of Bitcoin to to be given out. So Are you both coming down for to Miami in Bitcoin 2020? I'm not sure yet. I have I have a lot of FOMO, but, I don't know how it is with regulations, travel, and such.
[01:54:16] Unknown:
Yeah. I'll be there I'll be there for 10 days. So I'm Yeah. Andre Andre has no regulations, to to use as an excuse. So, yeah, I I'll I'll be there for 7. So I'm I'm glad to hear that. It's gonna be it's gonna be a fucking good time. If you haven't bought your ticket, use code humble. They did rug pull me. You still get 15% off, which is more than any other public QR, public, promo code. But it used to be 21% off to the early freaks. But don't worry, it's trending to 0 in terms of Bitcoin. So if you do wait, you you might be able to get it cheaper if it doesn't sell out in the meantime. Yeah. So, I mean, I think this has been a great conversation in general.
I wanna I have 2 more topics that I wanna wanna hit before we end this. It seems like we don't have any, like, freaks. If you have any questions, hit us with questions. To the to the people listening via podcast, we love all of you. Fuck yes. Quin Solo wants you to know that he's up for some custom engraving for the freaks if that's the path you wanna go down. I'm I'm literally we're gonna have giveaways with Quincello to support free open source development, and I want the Freaks to decide how that goes. So I don't know if other shows do that, but this is how I wanna fucking do it. Quinn Solo seems like up. He's up for the task. He makes, like, my favorite flask. My favorite flask has the tales from the Crip logo on it. It says Matt O'Dell. It's from Quinn Solo. It's the fucking best flask ever. Everyone's like, you're so conceited. I'm like, I'm not conceited. He sent it to me. I'm just trying to I'm I'm I'm trying to rep what the freak sent me.
But, it it it's he he has dope products. So don't be shy. Tell us, you know, what what what do you think we should go with that.
[01:56:08] Unknown:
We we may we may need to to partner with them. We're we're getting swagged for conference now. We may need to talk to them. Yeah. Let's do that. Quincell is fucking dope. You should you should partner with them. I want our logo on a coaster. That would be pretty
[01:56:20] Unknown:
sick. Yeah. You heard that, Quinn? He's here. He heard that. He'll make it happen. Reach out to them.
[01:56:26] Unknown:
I will. Yeah.
[01:56:29] Unknown:
I was actually telling Quinn to reach out to you. Stay humble, Matt. And I appreciate that, Quinn. Quinn Quinn told me to stay humble to all the podcast people. So so the 2 things I wanted to talk about was, first of all, it looks like people have dropped off a little bit, here on the live on the live element. They're getting a little upset that we're not talking about the most important Bitcoin fundamental. So we're gonna have to save that for all the freaks that have have been here till, you know, the ride or die freaks. Both of you, I wanna hear, we'll start with Khan.
Do you believe that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
[01:57:13] Unknown:
Yeah. I think so. I mean, I only I don't know. Yeah. It'll pump forever. We will make sure of it of it. I'm not a supporter. Contrary to to Andre, I'm not a supporter of stock to flow, but it will it will go up forever. I'm in for the long run. Our players are in for the long run. The Minsk's prize pools will be the biggest prize pools in esports history. So Yes. A 100%. We we made millionaires. Right? So
[01:57:46] Unknown:
Yeah. It's gonna in in in hindsight, people are gonna look back there and be like, oh my god. I can't believe I didn't fucking participate in that. It was so good.
[01:57:55] Unknown:
Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. We had we had a, I was saying we had a 15, 16 year old or something like that that, he he even asked his his dad permission. And he was like, can I play on this thing? Is this for real? And he won, you know, 600,000 sats, and it's, like, insane because in 2 years, 3 years' time, he's gonna look back and be like, what were you doing this day in 2021? He's like, I was just making millions playing 15 minutes of CS GO, You know? So I I fully support that that notion that
[01:58:26] Unknown:
yeah. Fucking legend, Niamh. Legend there.
[01:58:30] Unknown:
Fucking legend. I love it. So so, Andre, do you agree you're agreeing that it's designed to pump forever?
[01:58:37] Unknown:
Yes. To a certain extent. Mostly and and the extent is, the the the base of money. Like, how much money is there
[01:58:47] Unknown:
in in the world? Okay. So so, Andre, so the question is when fiat dies, so obviously okay. When we enter a hyperinflation, like, obviously, Bitcoin's gonna continue to pump in terms of shitty money. But then after that money dies and and Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency and everything is priced in Sats, does not does the purchasing power of your Sats not increase forever?
[01:59:13] Unknown:
Does the purchasing power of my Sats in a world where Bitcoin is the sole, you know, global currency reserve, whatever you wanna call it, given its finite nature, I I would agree because the economy will grow. There's always more, you know, quote unquote. There's always more people in part of the economy. So there's more purchasing power. So, yes. In in short, if if that is the future you're you're talking about, yes, it will ultimately future we expect. Right?
[01:59:38] Unknown:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. I so I support I support that notion. It's important for you both to realize that, like, all 24 guests that came before you guys have had to answer this question as well. This is an important aspect. I I'm I'm Matt O'Dell providing a technical podcast technical focus podcast that that also asks this question every single episode, which I think is a nice mix. So and then my second question is is way more difficult question and is, very specific to gaming, and it would behoove me to to not mention this.
Gaming addiction. Where do we fall in gaming addiction? We I feel like we need to talk about this. Like, we can't be talking about people fucking killing each other in games for sats, playing Mario Kart for sats. I know I pronounced it poorly without talking about gaming addiction. Where do you guys stand on this, like, what what are we supposed to do? There
[02:00:36] Unknown:
And they are addicted without sats. Maybe they will be with with sats. I think it's fix the money, fix the world kind of problem maybe. So if we have SUDs in game, maybe monetization will be fixed. I don't know. So I see it as a issue that is not not linked to having sats in the game. However, I personally see that sats in the game ups the toxicity of of gaming by a lot. I don't know what you see, Andre, but I don't see addiction as a as a problem to with combined with SUDs, but I see toxicity as a big problem when you have money on the on the line.
[02:01:19] Unknown:
Yeah. I my view is very similar. I think it it goes hand in hand with a lot of Bitcoin critics that try to say, you know, oh, Bitcoin doesn't solve x. And it's like but it it never really had to or wanted to solve x. It solves y and z, but it like, why is the the technology meant to solve every societal problem all of a sudden? Right? The incumbents didn't solve all the problems, so why why is Bitcoin expected to solve every single problem? But I think it solves one of the core problems, which, you know, trickles down into solving other problems. We were saying fix the money, fix fix the world. But, I I don't know that it'll make addiction, you know, quote unquote easier in the sense of gaming because, you know, now there's money, so people are gonna stick around. I think, Constantine nailed it. Like, there's addiction in gaming right now, and and I think there will be in when stats are involved, I think, it's it the stakes may be higher. So what you may end up seeing is is, you know, a basically, there's there's more at stake when, you're quote unquote an an a game addict and and you lose sats rather than just losing a match.
So I'm sure there's gonna be problems just like just like there is right now. But I don't know that that Sats are the the reason why it'll, you know, dramatically improve or, completely ruin that that whole scenario, and everyone is now suddenly in a game attic. I I don't know that it plays that much of a of a part, at least initially. I think once everything is is monetized and there's sats everywhere, you know, I possibly, who knows? I don't know that it's injecting infusing sats does not make, you know, gamer an addict, in my opinion, at least.
[02:02:58] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I I will defend both of you as well, because I wouldn't ask the question otherwise. I mean but, otherwise, me answering the question. I I mean, I think game game addiction exists already, and they just automatically lose money, so at least they can win money. And then for gamblers, like, those gamblers already exist. They might move over to to video game based gambling or something, but they're already gambling on other things. Like, it's not like some like, when someone who's a gambling, like, who's addicted to gambling is going to to, realize it because your game offers it. They're already addicted to gambling. They're already
[02:03:39] Unknown:
Agreed.
[02:03:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. A 100%. I don't think I I think it changes game dynamics, incentives, and all the things. I don't think it's the sole reason why things will change drastically when it comes to gaming addiction. But it is important
[02:03:52] Unknown:
from a publisher, you know, developer point of view, right, that that you should if you if we wanna talk about ethical development, right, like, you should, in a way, incorporate that into the structure of whatever games you're producing. Right? Is that is that you should be trying to provide some kind of education, like, please don't.
[02:04:13] Unknown:
If you're talking about ethical, dilemma, then, like, why don't they care about the ethics of only receiving value into the game? Like, they don't care about the players. Game developers don't care about the players right now, especially for the large large game studios. So if we're talking about That's what I'm saying. Right, Andre? Yeah. It's like, there's like a dark there's a dark undertone in gaming
[02:04:31] Unknown:
that it's very much attention focused. Right? And it's this idea that you want to you want to gather as much attention as possible from your user base. So you're literally trying to get them addicted to your game. That that that is currently, that is the model. The the current model is I want you playing all the fucking time. Yep.
[02:04:52] Unknown:
Without without getting anything out of this other than, you know, quote unquote entertainment. Right? Let's call that entertainment, if you will, but it's it's a little more dark dark than that. But if I I agree. But if there's something in return, I think it changes a little bit. And and if we're talking about ethics, you know, a 100% agree with you that, that there is this expectation. Like, let me create the game that has the perfect structure so that I create the incentive so that people play it all the time. And and it's not too too dissimilar to the the Bitcoin, network structure where, you know, it's the incentive structures are aligned such that everyone plays their part and and they're drastically penalized if they go out of the, you know, the constraints or the consensus or whatever, and you get forked off and and and, you know, lose their coins or something. So I hope we don't we don't get to that, but I I think Right. Adding stats to games, you know, it it it again, it changes dynamics.
[02:05:50] Unknown:
But I don't know that it it will change the view of, you know, we want you to play all the time. I think they will still have that, but you'll possibly get some value out of it. Right? It's like the Bitcoin energy argument. Right? It's like all of a sudden, like, you just wanna you wanna you wanna say, like, Bitcoin can't use the energy, but you never fucking got mad at any of the other fucking energy usage. And it's like so you you wanna say you wanna say that that sats in a game is gonna make you more addicted. But meanwhile, everyone who's making a TV series or making a modern video game or making any kind of attention. They're they're all trying to drive your attention into whatever they're doing. Right?
[02:06:31] Unknown:
And and to to to pull off a a comment here, it says, Quin Solis, it's sat inside an RPG. Totally changes it for me. I'm incentivized to show up and actually complete the tasks, not just murder hobo murder hobo for funds. I think it's totally true. Right? Like, if if all of a sudden the money that you have in your wallet, like, in real life is the same money that you have in the game, like, wouldn't you care so much more about your character? Wouldn't you think twice about, like, going on a random expedition or or like a guild with your friends to, like, and and beat this boss. Because if you lose, you actually lose fat. So you you basically care a lot more. Whether that leads to addiction or not is a different matter, but, I think, like, it it'll start it's what I was saying earlier. It'll stop being so okay to die on a CSO match because, you know, I just respawn and that's fine. Right. And it'll be it'll be like there's actually things on the line here. If I if I don't play correctly, if I don't make my moves correctly, I I get penalized here. I mean, I specifically with gaming, the most important thing is, like, the status quo is, like, it's completely cool for you to lose a shit ton on money gaming.
[02:07:29] Unknown:
But, like, there's no way for you to make any
[02:07:32] Unknown:
money. Yeah. Exactly. Agreed. Agreed.
[02:07:38] Unknown:
Totally agree. Based on con yeah. Based on con's, fucking song. He a 100% agrees. So, I mean, I think this was a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. I think this conversation is gonna age fucking beautifully. I think I think people are gonna look back on this shit, like, our grandkids are gonna look back on this shit. They're gonna be like, oh my god. Like, they were talking about things that were so fucking obvious. You know, it's like it's gonna be like those videos where they're like, oh, they're talking about Amazon in 97, and they're like, oh, Bitcoin. They're Bitcoin. Yeah. They're, oh, oh, book bookstore. They're gonna be a bookstore online, all this shit. Right. And that's what this conversation is gonna be like, so I really appreciate you both joining us.
I think people aren't really they they don't really understand, like, this is this is the the the you are gonna be completely they're just gonna they're gonna be onboarded to Sats, and it's gonna be the most natural fucking thing ever. Like, they're not even gonna think twice about it. Like, it's just gonna be, you know, they love playing games, they're gonna play games, They're gonna wager SATs on those games. They're gonna win SATs. They're gonna lose SATs, and SATs are just gonna quickly become the standard to them before they even have a bank account. They're not gonna have a bank account. They're not gonna be spending money. They're not gonna be taking care of their wife and their kids and shit.
They're not gonna have a job. They're gonna be fucking earning and losing sats before all of that, and that's just in their head is gonna become the unit of account. Like, this it unfathomable.
[02:09:12] Unknown:
If I totally. And if I can just add some some anecdotes here. I think, with with the release of the of the bots that we did, they got added to some some gaming, Discords that that I've seen, and, I think it's it's it's in I don't know how else to explain it. It's so clear when, you know, you see these teens and and gamers. I don't even know if they're teens they're Discord users, but you see these gamers. They don't actually really know what sats are, but they know they want them and they know that they they want they can get them somehow here and there and playing games and so forth. And and because they already see, the value in, like, your jewels and your diamonds and your singhs and your v bucks and like, they understand the notion of unit of accounts.
With the bot, you were, like, you know, z send a 100. Right? And a 100 sats to us is like, oh, 100 sats. You know, it's fine. Whatever. It's it's it's a it's a tiny tiny 0¢ amount. To them, whenever we send, you know, 200 sats, it's a gigantic amount because it's 200. So to them, the the SATs to a lot of people that we're seeing is, like, it already is the cumulative account. It's just like, oh my god. You sent me 2,000 SAPs? This is amazing. So for for us, we re like at Zebedee, we really believe that the first, you know, economic interactions that people have, are actually in games. It just happens to be with money that is siloed inside of, you know, the game economy that doesn't do anything else. But I think the first economic interactions that people have in in a real value transfer is through games. Now imagine if that money was actually the money power in the world. Right? And and that's what we wanna see the future of. So, I'm very I'm very hopeful. Of course, I'm biased. I'm running a company on the on this industry, but, I I think Biased as fuck, bro. Yeah.
I think it's clear. It's what you were saying, like, the 9090 9 whatever, Amazon video. I think for us, it's clear. And I think once people, you know, wake up and realize it, it it will already be the reality. It will already be in a bunch of games, and it will already be omnipresent and and and, you know, around everywhere. And I think we're gonna see that in the next 5 years. Bitcoin is just gonna be virtually everywhere. Like, I'm a big believer that the the the velocity of the Bitcoin, quote unquote, revolution is even faster than the Internet revolution because I think, the the Bitcoin revolution is enabled by the Internet revolution, which basically allows, you know, instantaneous information transfer around the world where whereas when the Internet came about, that wasn't the case. Right? So I think Bitcoin's velocity is much higher. I think in 5 years' time, we're we're gonna be looking back at at this interview like you're saying and saying, oh my god, these guys were visionaries. But really to us, it's it's very clear. I think it's it's a very clear proposition here.
[02:11:56] Unknown:
Totally agree. However, I think, lie like like you said, gaming and lightning is like this match made in heaven, and it was very hyped in the beginning of lightning. And now it's I think it went down a little bit, but I think as soon as there's this one gaming use case for lightning, which will blow everything up, I think it's coming soon. Priced in, bro. It's not priced in exactly. It's like the next halving. Right?
[02:12:24] Unknown:
People have no idea. Like, all the other cycles were were just shitcoiners trying to make shitcoins for gaming. You know? Yep. And they were all trying to create all their different shitcoin bullshits. And then this cycle is different. This cycle, we have real we have you guys, you know, we have we have Thunder Games involved. Like, we we have all all these different people that are that are working towards actually putting Sats in the games, and I think, like, people are just not really appreciating it. Right. I I I just wanted to thank both of you for joining us, and, I mean, I I think it's it's about time to wrap this up, but I I just want to, like everything you guys are working towards is just I've I've fully wholeheartedly support it. I'm very excited about it. I'm excited to take stats for my future children and my future grandkids. I my future grandkids will probably take stats for me when we game, but I will absolutely destroy my children when we game.
Do you have any final comments for the freaks before we leave?
[02:13:30] Unknown:
Yeah. I I start. Thanks for having us, and thanks for always increasing. Or I don't know if it's you, but you some someone always increases, your sponsorship in our game, so thank you for that. And, yeah, I'm I'm very hyped to be part of this lightning gaming revolution alongside Andre, Zebedee, Thunder Games, Satoshi's Games. Yeah. I'm very excited for the future and what's to come.
[02:13:57] Unknown:
Yeah. For for my side, you know, definitely thanks for for having us, and and I think gaming and lightning is is a very bright future that we have. But, specifically, Matt, I think, you know, thanks for for asking the hard questions. I think someone has to. And, if people aren't pressured and aren't challenged, you know, we we never move forward. You said it yourself earlier is that the challenges are the innovators. So there are gonna be challenges ahead. There are gonna be, you know, battles and wars, but we we will thrive as Bitcoin always has. And, we're gonna come come, come out as winners at the end of, of the tunnel. So, again, like, thanks for for for having us here. But, in general, thanks for for being caps lock Odell and, asking the questions that people want asked.
[02:14:40] Unknown:
Fuck. Yes. I've been feeling a little bit lowercase lately, but that just kinda confused me if I if I if I could partake in a pun. I just wanted to thank all the freaks for joining us live. You freaks make Bitcoin Tuesdays what it is, and I also wanna thank the freaks that are joining us after the fact. Youfreaks also make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is in a different way. I want you guys to both follow these guys. We have at AndreNeves, a n d r e n e v e s, on Twitter. We have at sputnicksputnoneckon Twitter. I see. Both those things are in show notes.
I love all you freaks. Just, you know, don't let the no corners, like, fuck around with you on this tiny little dip. Right? Like, everyone who I'm trying to convince to fucking stack are all, like, oh, we're going down to 40. I'm just, like, just stack. Just fucking keep stacking. I'm just telling you guys to stack. Just fucking do it. Next week, I don't know who we're gonna have yet, so I'm not gonna tease who we're gonna have yet. But I'm I'm pretty excited for it just in general. I I really do there's, like, a lot of in fighting on Twitter right now. I just you know, I I wish the friendly fire was a little bit reduced. I agree with 99% of every single BitCorner on Twitter, like, real BitCorner, not ChickCorner, on Twitter. So I I wish that was a little bit reduced, but I I'm also a little bit guilty of that. So I do take responsibility there.
I hope to see you all at Bitcoin 2021. We will have, RHR on Thursday as is tradition. Marty will never commit to a specific time, unlike the dispatch, but we're aiming for 3:30 EST. UTC, that should be oh my god. I'm gonna fuck this up. What is, 1930? 1930? 18:30 UTC, I think. Just fucking did that off the top of my head. And so join us for that, and then join us back on Tuesday for 21 100 UTC, for the next Citadel Dispatch. Let's fucking go. Stay humble, Stack Sats. I love you all. Thank you to Andre. Thank you to Khan. You guys are fucking killing it. Let's fucking just do this shit. Cheers.
[02:17:04] Unknown:
Cheers. Thanks, Matt. Cheers.
[02:20:37] Unknown:
Oh, freaks. I love you. We're the only ones left. We're gonna fucking run this shit. I'm looking forward to doing it along along all of you, and I'll see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. And I'll see you next Tuesday for sizzle dispatch 15. If you want to provide suggestions on who the next guest should be, come into our Sphinx tribe and let us know, specifically this little dispatch, Sphinx tribe, and, let's have fun with it. Stay humble. Stack stats.
Particular for the use of general to the general use, we tend to establish the equivalence with cash, and there is a huge difference there. For example, in cash, we don't know, for example, who's using a $100 bill today. We don't know who is using a 1,000 peso bill today. A a key difference in with the CBDC is that Central Bank will have absolute control on the rules and regulations that will determine the use of that expression of Central Bank Liability. And also, we will have the technology to enforce that. Those are those two issues are extremely important, and that makes a huge difference with respect to what, to what cash is.
[00:01:35] Unknown:
Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your boy, Matt O'Dell, here for another episode of Citadel dispatch. Thank you all for joining us once again. You're the ones who make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is. Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin for Bitcoiners. This is episode 14, Block 675990. I'm joined here by Andre Neves and Sputnik. We're gonna call him Khan for the rest of this episode. I'm very excited to have both these guys here. We will be focused mostly on lightning and its interaction with the video game world. I'm pretty excited about this. I think it's gonna be a killer conversation.
Before I get there, that clip you heard in the beginning, if you're joining us via audio only through our podcast feeds, was Agustin Carstens of the Bank of International Settlements. Apparently, this is a a bank that I I don't think anyone really knows exists unless you're a big corner, and then we're obsessed with it. But it's like a bank of banks, and that was a clip from October 2020, where he basically laid out the plan to get rid of cash, so that they can track us with their, like, totalitarian stable coins, which they like calling now CBDCs, but I don't it's like they just like to have nomenclature there. So, I mean, that's just it it surfaced it surfaced this week on Bitcoin Twitter. It seemed, a pretty obvious talking point, and I just wanted to surface that here on the show for you freaks.
As you know, if you're a return freak, you're able to access the show via Twitch, Twitter, YouTube. That's all live on Tuesdays at 21:100 UTC. You can also access it via our 2 podcast feeds, whether that's the Tales from the Crypt feed or the dedicated Citadel dispatch feed. You just search those in your favorite podcast apps. We're also now on Sphinx chat, which is a lightning powered, lightning powered everything application that allows you to chat, with encryption and also, stream stats while listening to podcasts. There's a tales from the crypt tribe in there and also a dedicated SIL dispatch tribe. Not sure exactly what we're gonna do with the dedicated Zillow Dispatch Tribe yet, but I think we can think of some fun things there.
And on that vein as well and you can go to tribes.spinx.chat, to look those up. We have about 20 freaks in this. Over 20 freaks in the Citadel dispatch 1 and over 400, in the tails from the crypt one. So cheers to that, to all the freaks that are already in there. Yeah. So with all that said, I'd like to introduce our great guests that we have today, our great guest hosts. I hope you guys came prepared with some good questions for us, and I hope they came ready to answer them. I guess we'll start with Con. Con, how's it going over there?
[00:04:32] Unknown:
Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here here and, yeah, talk about lightning and gaming, which has followed me for, I think, yeah, over 2 years now. So I think there's a lot you can ask us, and I'm excited.
[00:04:49] Unknown:
I failed a little bit as a host. Khan is, the founder of Donner Lab. Andre is the CTO of Zebedee. Both of them are focused on introducing sats into gaming directly, and that is why they're here. So, Andre, what's up? How's it going?
[00:05:11] Unknown:
Hello. Hello. Hey, Matt. Constantine, thanks for having me, Dan. It's It's awesome to be here. Big fan of the show. So
[00:05:19] Unknown:
Cool. Cool. Cool. To the new freaks that are here and to our guests, on the on the screen, we have, on the top, we have the the evil empire price, we have the Coinbase pro price, and on the bottom, we have the proper free market. We have Bisq. So there you go. So with all that said, I figure I I I don't really know how to start this conversation, and I I I I feel like the best way to start it is esports. We've seen esports absolutely take off over the last 5 years. It's become a global sensation. I'm curious. Where do you guys stand on that movement as a whole? Let let forget about Bitcoin for a second. How how do you feel about where esports is currently?
[00:06:04] Unknown:
So I don't know. My experience with esports is I really like watching it, so I think I watch it weekly or biweekly and for the last 8 years now. So I'm a really big fan of DOTA 2, for example, I watch a lot of years ago. And I think I think esports is pretty cool. It showcases, like, very high skill in sports. And I don't know if you if you see what player bases are in in Counter Strike, for example, and how how good these players were getting in the last years. I think it's really awesome to watch and how this evolved on Twitch and everything. I think the industry is super interesting.
[00:06:45] Unknown:
Yeah. My take on on esports is that it's, in my opinion, the current currently the biggest driver of of the gaming industry. Right? It's it's 10% growth year over year for the past decade. And, I think over the last 5, 6, 7 years, esports has really been, the leading the leading factor there. And so there's really just one, aspect of esports that I I'm not a huge fan. And, it's it's the notion of of, you know, only the best of the best can ever reach that level. It's similar to any sort of sports competition. Right? You're gonna only fear the best, are you gonna be in the Olympics, World Cups, and so forth. But, I think in in video games, we can, because it's all cloud based, we can actually provide the ability for esports to be more available to, a larger audience that isn't, well, a larger active audience, right, that isn't just participating by watching.
So I think that's really the the only thing. But, otherwise, I also have Twitch running on the background all the time, whether it's coding in a meeting or something. So, yeah, a big fan of watching CS GO, especially since our our release.
[00:07:52] Unknown:
I mean, I think this is that that is, like, something that has been channeled by any gamer out there ever. I mean, that is not, like, top a 100 in the world. Right? It's like you're watching one of these tournaments, or you're watching some of the
[00:08:13] Unknown:
Yeah. And the money that goes in there is insane. If you look at it, it's so top heavy, like Andre was saying.
[00:08:20] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's amazing how, we have, 2 not to dox anyone, but we have 2 mods in the Infuse, CS code team that that help us, you know, managing the the servers and so forth. And, they're just on a whole other level. They're so insanely good. And, and they're not even, you know, at anywhere near the level that some of these guys play at at, esports. So 1 of 2 of them were Global Elites and CS GO and and, you know, played in ECSA and all these things. And, and they're like, no. I'm I'm not even close. I'm not even nearly close. So it there's still a big discrepancy between the top of the the top one one percent, right, the 0.1% and and the 1%. So, it's it's really something that's, more or less unachievable to your general gamer,
[00:09:06] Unknown:
which which, you know, I wish that was the only difference here. And then meanwhile, we have, like, a 14 year old winning, like, $1,000,000 at the Fortnite championships. Right? Yeah.
[00:09:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Pretty much. It's,
[00:09:20] Unknown:
yeah. It's interesting to me oh, go on. Go on. The good thing about games is you can train every day, all day. Right? And this is what they do. So the top players have achieved such a mastery which you cannot see in other sports, I think, because you're restrained by your physical tiredness, for example.
[00:09:37] Unknown:
Well, there's definitely I mean, in all sports, there's a there's a peak age. Right? You know, and there's a peak age, and it's usually between when you get strong enough versus when you get too old. Right? And I feel like the peak age for every competitive sport, except maybe, like, gymnastics or something, like, it's gotta be it's gotta be gaming. Esports has to be, like, one of the lowest peak ages. Like, immediately your reflexes just fucking start dying once you pass, like, 16 years old.
[00:10:07] Unknown:
Yeah. That's true. But I think there are also big strategic esports. Right? Like, DOTA 2, for example, has a lot of old players who are captains.
[00:10:15] Unknown:
Or olds, they are, like, 30 2 or something. So Right. It's a reflex versus a reflex game like Fortnite. I guess Fortnite is Yeah. Is is different. So esports Yeah. It's it's almost unfair for us to Fortnite's one of the big growing ones now, or I guess it was at least for a while there, and it's kind of unfair to group everything in together. Right? Like, there there there are there are such different variations across the esports landscape.
[00:10:41] Unknown:
It's it's the same as bundling all sports together. Right? It's saying, you know, all sports are great. It's like, well, there's so many different types and, and flavors. Yeah. I think I think there's definitely clear types in when it comes to esports around, like, FPS. Right? So you got, like, Valor and CS GO and Fortnite and all these, I guess Fortnite is a little different, but, you've got these these FPS heavy. And then you've got your your MMORPGs or or or or, you know, you're related to DOTA 2 and things like that, which are a little bit more strategy heavy. I think for the FPS games, the the younger crowd dominates it. And, yeah, we had not to get too off topic, but we had some people participating in Minkox tournament. And it was like a a 15 year old took the prize. You know? He just, like, was the best one, by far. Like, he just won it all.
So yeah. It's the new generation.
[00:11:32] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I'm a I'm a I don't know how common it is, but I'm a weird gamer in that, I'm like first person shooters, and I'm like civilization, which is, like, completely it's like the the farthest variations of gaming possible.
[00:11:48] Unknown:
Yeah. We have, you need to to own some noobs, and sometimes you want to chill and just get wrecked by Gandhi.
[00:11:57] Unknown:
We have a a weekly game night at at Zebedee, and, the first few few nights we played, Age of Empires 2. And it's just such a classic. And and the whole time, I was like, what if this entire economy was based in South? Wouldn't that be awesome? And so, like, the the imagination goes wild when you're playing these games. Right?
[00:12:16] Unknown:
Well, I mean, this is so, like, so this has been a a a I grew up gaming, and I grew up playing first person shooters. And as soon as I discovered Bitcoin, my immediate thing was, I want to kill someone and get paid sats, and I want when they kill me, I want to lose sats. And, actually, at that time, I hadn't even I was still I I hadn't matured as a Bitcoiner yet, and I was I wanna get paid Bitcoin, and I wanna I wasn't even at Sats yet. So we weren't it was it was before that, and I was, like, I think, like, some some kid in the other side of the world should be able to spawn camp me, and and take my money.
And one of the reasons why I wanted to have both of you guys on for the this is the first conversation we've really had centered around gaming, is because, you know and and it makes sense, like, in a in a new space, and and we saw with, specifically with, Zebedee, you start small with the types of games you do. But right now, both of you guys have real first person shooters, experiences where where you literally when you kill someone, you take their stats. I I I know there's a little bit more nuance there specifically with Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, but you wanted to talk a little bit about the mechanics there, about how that changes one of these I mean, I I I wanna start with Andre, because Andre, you specifically, you guys have this new product Infuse.
Right? And you took you took Counter Strike Go, which is, like, practically, like, the open source equivalent of, 1st person shooters because there's just insane amounts of mods you can do to it, and you infuse sets into it. It's like the OG first person. This game has held up since we were we were little kids and we were playing it. Right? Like, this game is still almost exactly the same. Yeah. That's crazy. That's fucking insane. 99. Is that what you said?
[00:14:14] Unknown:
Yeah. This one, I think, kinda strike 1 o 1.0 is 99. Right? And then the 1.6 was around 2,002, 3? I may be wrong.
[00:14:24] Unknown:
Right. So, that's insane. Okay. So in the nineties, this the the the this game came out, and it basically has hold up held up. Right? How has what do you how do you think adding stats to a game like that has changed the dynamics of that game?
[00:14:41] Unknown:
So maybe I can start just by giving a a very quick brief on on Infuse. You were asking about, like, how it works and and the layer around it, and then I'll touch on on the change in in dynamics and gameplay. So Infuse at its core is really just a a a set of, you know, parts in a system that allow us to inject or infuse sats into a game. Like you were saying, CS GO specifically because, one, it still has, you know, 20,000,000 active players a month, which is which is insane. And it's been going on for 20 years. It's still the the, you know, crop of the what's the the expression like cream of the crop when it comes from for FPS, shooters. Right? So it made sense. We have a a a lot of users. It made sense to be a game to to infuse.
Specifically, the first version that we had, which is this tournament mode, is you you you basically, you're staking some sats. You're saying, hey. Let's put in 500 sats each, And then whoever, is the best player takes the biggest, part of the pot, so it's divided equally, between between your scores in the game in the game. So, I think initially, the goal was just to, you know, can this be done? Right? Is is this feasible? There's a lot of of ideation and imagination and, oh, this is great. This is awesome. Let's make it work. But you you don't really see it until you you build it. And when we made it work, I remember Chris Mandelduck who who is also a cofounder of Zevity. He he built the the initial prototype, and we didn't believe him. And and then he brought it up. So, no, let's do it in a game night. So, everyone got together, and he's like, I I put I put stats into CS GO. And then that's where Infuse came came up. And, so I think, in general, what we've seen is there's a lot more, notion of skin in the game is very, very real.
People get angry when they lose and they wanna play again. And so they stake more sats because they're like, you know, screw you. Why are you taking my sats away? And and they just keep going and going. So it it definitely has added, a layer of competitiveness that isn't there necessarily when you're just playing CS GO normally because I think it's, it's it's, very, there's there's it's frictionless. Right? You die and you respawn or you wait till the end of the match and then you you respawn again. So there's very little cost or both from a from a monetary standpoint, but also from a a mental cost. You're just you're just sitting. You're waiting. You're watching the game, and then you play again.
When when you have skin in the game, when you have stats, it really changes. It seems like people are much more, not only into the game, but interested and wanna participate and wanna come back and wanna win more, and especially the ones that have been losing. There's now that drive to make up that that stats, the those stats that they've lost. Right? So they come back and and, unfortunately, some keep losing. Right? Because that's the reality of it. A lot of people are not are not that great and a lot of people are really good. So that's the first version of Infuse. I think, we can talk a little bit more later about the new the new game modes we have coming up, but that's that's what we've seen in terms of of dynamics. Right? It changes a bit of the incentive structures of the game.
It's still CS GO at its core, but now you have the added, competitiveness aspect in there. Like, I have I have some money on the line even though it's, you know, cents and and and, you know, a dollar, 2 dollars, 5 dollars. But, you know, that that starts there, and then you can you can you can go as as big as we want. Right? We can we can do a 1,000,000 Sats games if we wanted to. It's just, there's not that many good players willing to put that much money yet. So that's what we've seen on our side. I don't know if Con has has things on on Bitcoin bouncing out. I think he has some different, you know, incentives in in the games as well.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I think our game, is is a is is a little bit different because for for you, it was harder. Right? So you needed to take on the lightning element, the Bitcoin element where we build it from the ground up to to include Bitcoins. Our game works in a way where, there we have have these maps. It's a deathmatch game mode. You run around and collect these bounty cubes is what we call them, and this increases your bounty. And when another person kills you, then you drop your bounty, and they couldn't collect them. And then at the end of the round, your bounty gets converted to earnings.
So the gameplay is re centered around these sats, and these sats have a in game presence. It's a little bit different. And from from skin in the game is because our players do not pay anything. Right? So we are just a very sophisticated Bitcoin faucet
[00:19:15] Unknown:
is how I would describe it. I wanna get into I wanna get into that in a second because I think that is the coolest one of the coolest elements of I mean, you just created a whole different incentive structure and business model there as well. But before we get into that, I just wanted to I'm I'm just curious if you guys agree with me here. My thesis that I'm running with, as as as both a lifelong gamer and a Bitcoiner, is that once we start adding Sats into these games and I think it's cool that you guys that we have both of you on here because you're coming at it from 2 different angles. Right? Like, the infused product is super cool because you're setting up a way for, you know, maybe, like, if we dream big, like, an epic or someone coming along and being, like, we just wanna partner with you guys and just throw it right into a big game. But the thesis for a while has always been that challenger games are gonna come in, and they're gonna try and and make a name for themselves, and that's where, like, Bitcoin Bounty Hunt comes in. But, anyway, my thesis is that once we start adding stats into games, it becomes almost like now that people know you can have stats in the game, you can have skin in the game, why would you ever play without stats? It's like I I would never spend any time playing poker without money.
I just wouldn't even consider it. It's so boring without money. Is that what's gonna happen here with with gaming without, like, competitive gaming or semi competitive gaming, amateur competitive gaming without without stats?
[00:20:41] Unknown:
That that okay. I will start with the with the the view that, no, I don't I don't know because I think skill differences are one thing. It's very hard to balance games, and then it can be frustrating. And you already have, like, progression mechanics which which might encourage you to play, but suts are better, I guess. But another thing is simply that games are buggy, games are glitchy, games can be hacked, and poker is like it's hard to do that. Right? It's it's it has defined rules. So I think there's another element of uncertainty in games which might, discourage from having sats everywhere, for example.
[00:21:20] Unknown:
I mean, it's it's not that I mean, online poker has similar concerns, right, that has dominated them for years. That that people are like, how do you make it provably fair? How do you know that the house isn't screwing you? And you have AIs playing better than any player? You have people controlling, like, 4 of the seats or 5 seats on an online poker table,
[00:21:39] Unknown:
stuff like that. Oh, that's true. Yeah. My my take on that is I think there will always be, you know, games that don't have sats, or versions of the same games that have sats that don't have sats. I think once the cat is out of the bag and and we move from a place where we're, you know, infusing sats into games and and we're seeing, you know, triple a studios wanting to place, that sense into, like, putting sats into the game. Right? Like, look. Let's make it part of our core, fabric of this game. I think that will change, the the once once we go over that hurdle, I think, it's it's more of a, you know, we have this in game currency that is necessary you know, it's totally interoperable with any other service, wallet, game, or anything that speaks this language. It's kinda like, you know, we can just create a new browser as long as it speaks HTTP. Right? Like, we don't need to figure out the the rest. That's super over oversimplifying here. But, if you if you're a game developer and you and you're seeing and this is now the, the status quo, right, which is now you can put Bitcoin into games, I think the users will want to have Bitcoin into games because it it changes the the idea of of money like, the value that that you put into a game, can now return to you after you've put that value in. So as a as a, you know, a 15, 14 year old, I would spend 100 of hours playing games. I'm sure both of us both of you as well. I would even lie to to friends of mine being like, yo, you know, I can't make it tonight. I haven't my aunt's birthday or something. And they would come back and be like, but I thought you said that was yesterday. Right? Because I would lie about it just so I can stay at home and playing games.
Imagine if if all of that time that you you put into it could you could see some return. We're not talking a 100% of the same return, but we're talking you you're not just, endlessly putting that value out there and and, you know, it's it's only one direction. Right? So I think once the like I was saying, once the cat is out of the bag, I think, there will be a drive and there will be demand for those. But I don't think sats fit into every single gameplay, period. Like, you can't just inject sats into a game. I think adding money to a game changes the mechanics. I I don't think it's that easy. Right? And and even with CS GO, we can't just like, does it make sense, for example, to change the money in CS GO, the money that you buy, guns with, right, and and and weapons and so forth? Does that should we make those the stats, or do we make the health the stats? Like, what you know, you need to really think about the dynamics, just shoving stats into it. I don't know that makes it a better game.
But I I agree. I think in general, we're moving in that direction. I would like to see the future is is definitely, you know, gonna be sats heavy and, there's just too many benefits. Right? It's it's, it's interoperable and I think that in and of itself is is a big one.
[00:24:23] Unknown:
Well, we're already seeing games throw in. I mean, Con said this earlier, we're already seeing games throw in, like, different incentive structures to try and to basically hit that that nerve ending that you have, like, skin in the game. But usually, it's just in these complete walled gardens that are just so much worse than something like stats. And I mean, the perfect example, of multiple like, I always go back to Fortnite because Fortnite is a perfect example of a ton of different things in modern gaming. The first and most important I would say is that it shows how, like, gamers are motivated as fuck. Gamers are motivated consumers that love what they do and have very low switching costs. They will go to whatever is hot. They will go to whatever is new, whatever they think is fun and exciting, and they will move over there. And it'll happen quicker than anyone will ever expect. And Fortnite is a perfect example because you had you you had this move to Battle Royale out of nowhere.
Battle Royale was like a brand new format, and all of a sudden it dominated the whole game space. And to the freaks that don't know, it's this idea when you drop, you know, like, a 100 people into a into a closed arena, and the last man standing wins, which by the way is, like, perfect for a for a SaaS, grand prize. But anyway and then the other thing they did was they made it so it's free to play on every major platform, that it was cross platform on every major platform. These are things that didn't exist before for a triple a game. This idea that you could play with the PlayStation person from Xbox, or PC or even Wii or whatever, Switch.
And then so they added that, and then their monetization is is their shit coin. It's like V Bucks. Right? And then it has it has you can buy skins and all this different stuff that doesn't change the mechanics of the game. It doesn't make you any better at the game, but it makes your character look cool. And they're making 1,000,000 of 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars or tons of money off of of of of a base using this Bitcoin. Yeah. Billion. Is that what you said, billions? Yeah. I think it was 2,000,000,000 at the peak of 2018. Yeah. They're making 1,000,000,000 of dollars because people are are buying and earning this closed loop shit coin and buying skins that don't change any of the mechanics of the game except how they look. And the whole game is free otherwise, besides, I guess, subscriptions to make it easier to earn. But, like, so this idea right? So go on. Yeah.
[00:26:52] Unknown:
I was just gonna say and and the the main issue with that is, like, with any Altcoin, you can sell it. You can always sell it. It's at a loss? Fine. You sell it, and you get dollars back. V Bucks is is a one direction thing. It's the same as buying Steam games. It's it's like you you put the dollars in there. You can't say, like, oh, I have, you know, $50 in Steam. Let me, like, bring this back into into my my hands. Like, you you don't really get to do that. You have to use it in the ecosystem that they provide. So it's it's even worse than than your your shit coins because you can't sell it. Right? You can't, like, get rid of it. You have to find a secondary market to then, you know, somehow sell a skin to someone else that, you know, this, this, and that.
So it's it's it's a a form of of keeping that that that closed garden, right, that you were talking about. It's it's we give them a little bit, to suck them in, but it's always one direction. It's it's never back into the user, back into the player, which I think can can change quite a bit in, by just introducing stats into this.
[00:27:52] Unknown:
Yeah. That makes sense. I agree with that that you want to remove the shitty diamonds from mobile games. But I think it's it's a predatory tactic. Right? It's it's not like they would like to do something else. So they're the game developers, I mean. So I think this needs to be challenged by by new games coming to the scene.
[00:28:13] Unknown:
But this is so, I mean, you're gonna love our transition, Con. So this is why I'm super bullish on Bitcoin Bounty Hunt because it's a whole new format. It's an idea that no one had really considered before, and it's a very novel format. So do you wanna go into how how the Sats are just go go through the full dynamics of of Bitcoin Bounty Hunter. So the full dynamics,
[00:28:36] Unknown:
then I maybe need to, like, think a bit back because we created a game before Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, which was okay. The idea was what is cool or how can can you earn SUDs while playing games? And our first idea was, okay, you could stream a game and then viewers could add, could buy you enemies. This was our first idea, which I showcased at the lightning heck day in New York. And it was a cool game, but it was super niche. Right? And then we changed it to this auto chess, which was high then in in 2018 or 2019. It was super hype to have auto chess, so we built that, then nobody could could play it. So, yeah, then we we scratched that game and thought, okay, let's do something everybody can understand, and it was a person shooter.
And so our goal at StonerLab is to make Bitcoiners out of Bitcoiners out of no corners. Right? Which is cool and good for everyone. So the idea was: Okay. What can we do so that our players can earn Sats? And then very quickly we came to the idea that, okay, maybe we can just sell advertising for SUTs, and then these SUTs get distributed to the players. So what we have is we have these in game banners of advertisers, sponsors, memes, and then this allow us allows us to to spawn these SUT cubes in games so that our player can players can earn subs.
[00:29:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So, I mean, you you you in you created a whole new business model that a that a game publisher advertisers basically, are the ones paying you, not the customer. But the customer is still, you know, getting rewarded from those ad dollars. I guess you would you presumably, you take a cut of those ad dollars. Yeah. And the cool part to me is is that the ad dollars is all, like, we we've been a sponsor. Tales and the Crypt has been a sponsor for I don't even know how long now, and we just scan an invoice. We just post we post, like, a JPEG. We post our little NFT. I'm sorry. NFT. We post a JPEG, and then we just I guess you have to approve it to make sure it's not, like, a list of content or something. And then we put a link, and then we just pay we keep paying the invoice. And, actually, anyone can go to bitcoin bounty hunt.com, and they can contribute to the tails from the crypt ad budget over there, and then that gets divvied out to the players.
So a player can't lose any money. But I think it's important to realize here is, like, every time the stats conversation comes up, we have critics say, you know, there's gonna be kids that lose tons of money on your games, and it's like, yeah, that is the status quo already. Like, people lose 1,000 of dollars on games all the time, and they have no path to win money though. Like, so so a game a game that allows you to win money and lose money is strictly superior to a game that only allows you to lose money.
[00:31:28] Unknown:
I think sense. Yeah.
[00:31:30] Unknown:
Yeah. If I could just add, like, Constantine's, like, the idea behind the use of of sponsors is, you know, it's it basically removes, whereas right now, advertisers, there's always this, this third, like, middle third party, right, that basically is taking the cut. The user, it doesn't see any value, but the user is the one that sees the advertisement and then someone else is making a cut on that. So really what what Constantine was what you know, the first one to enable is it's it's using the game and the game's mechanics as, essentially a medium for advertisers to reach users.
So whereas an advertiser is basically saying, look. For your tiny, tiny span of attention in this game, for you to see this this image on the wall, here's some stats. Right? That's basically like, if you if you boil it down to the basics, that's what it is. So advertisers are directly, in a much more direct manner, paying for users', you know, attention. And I think that's very powerful because, right now, the users don't see the status quo is the users see nothing of that at all, and only third parties make that. And now with with Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, you can see, you know, Tales From the Crypt has definitely sponsored lots of of Sat cubes that are satoshis that people have withdrawn from the game and maybe they have bought stuff with. Right? And and, otherwise, that that wouldn't be possible.
So I think, you know, Bitcoin Bounty Hunters is a great example of of a a brand new, model for for introducing Sats into the game, and I think it's it's genius. Yeah.
[00:33:02] Unknown:
And I think the cool thing also as a player is you, you connect something positive, the advertiser. Right? Because you you Mhmm. They basically gift you money. Right? It's not that you view an intrusive ad, which annoys you, and then you have negative thoughts about the advertiser. With us, it's just, oh, it's in in Discord, there's sometimes, oh, it's so cool that you have these advertisers who are basically paying us. And, I mean, we have players from all around the world and
[00:33:27] Unknown:
And I think it's similar to it it's similar to in in movies. Right? When when you see, like, you're watching a movie and all of a sudden the person is at home in a scene and they open their Mac MacBook. Right? Like, that's a that's a native advertising where, like, you know, Apple must have picked there there was a deal behind there. They're like, okay. You're gonna use a a Windows machine or a MacBook. And, you know, the the the the viewer is actually not getting anything out of this one. But in in the game scenario, they are. Like, they're they're saying, look. You you you're seeing our advertisements, and here's some, you know, here's some, sats, which which, like the the whole point is it's it's a little bit more native advertising than it is, you know, a pop up on a web screen. Right? It's not it's not invasive. It's not, it's not in your face, like, you know, barring you from from taking the best user experience of the product or the game. It's just part of the game. It's it's native to the game.
[00:34:17] Unknown:
One of the funny things about that just that Apple product placement thing you said is that that, Apple doesn't allow enemies it doesn't allow antagonists or bad guys in movies to use Apple products. So anytime you see an Apple product in a movie, it's always, like, the hero of the movie, which I just thought is it's Android's for everyone, but, but but if if you use an iPhone, you have to be the hero. It's hilarious. I think it's interesting, this ad model, because as a gamer, I mean, I remember so first of all, I like that it's tasteful. I like that it's just like billboards. There's, like, billboards in the game that you're just, like, running around. They're just static images, which is nice. I like that it does create a positive taste in in the consumer because they're getting paid, and they get to play the game for free. So you're able to give them all of a sudden, we're able to give a free game that's not doesn't feel predatory, which is really cool. But this idea of in game ads is interesting to me because, I guess, on mobile, we have the annoying, horrible, like, click through, listen to this video pop ups or whatever to get credits or get, you know, cheat codes.
It's, like, it's just malicious as fuck. But before that existed, I remember on, I think, Halo 2 or something, the DLC was, like, sponsored by, like, Mountain Dew. Like, you got free DLC and you, like, ran past vending machines, and there was just, like, Mountain Dew vending machines and Mountain Dew billboards everywhere, and the downloadable content was free. And I guess they just didn't make enough money from that, and they just went for, like, now it's, like, you get, like, a triple a game and you have to pay them, like, $40 just to get the extra maps or something. They just that whole ad model just kinda got thrown out the window, so it's kinda cool that you brought it back.
[00:36:01] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's it's very annoying in in mobile games, and I agree. But I what what, like, PC or console games? I mean, out the the FIFA and and NBA series are doing a lot of advertising. Right?
[00:36:12] Unknown:
A lot of They do, like, end game advertising on the billboards of the FIFA billboards on the soccer field. They have, like, the classic advertising.
[00:36:20] Unknown:
You can't skip the cut scenes anymore in in in the NBA games. So you need to to watch this also advertising at the start of a single player game against the bot, which is super, super ridiculous, I think, if you pay full price for the game. So it's I don't know how much.
[00:36:38] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I think, just to add another example, not to steal from from, Constantine's Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, who's definitely the first one, but, Bitcoin rally is one that we that we use, that Zebedee has built. And, it's a little bit more of a of a proof of concept game that has evolved and and is now going to be released, for people to host their own tournaments and all these things. It's a it's a Mario Kart like game, that has stats in it. And, it's it's really cool because, we we followed a very similar approach to the, to the the Sats, advertising model. Right? So, but instead of of anyone being able to sponsor, we we use, MintGox, which is the we can talk about later. But, we use MintGox sponsors in in the in the app and in the game itself. So for example, Bitrefill, which is a great company and and great people work there. And, they they work closely with Minkox, and so they've been sponsoring a handful of of our, events. And, we actually put a bit refill, station, like, kind of like a gas station inside of the Bitcoin rally map where if you pass by it, it's you you either go left or right in in one of the intersections. If you go right, you pass by the Bitrefill, station, and you're you're actually given sats. Right? Like, you see sats pouring in, which is which is awesome. And and you see, like, little coins coming into the cart, which is basically so Bitrefill pays, you know, MintGox for the sponsorship deals, and then we place them into the games. And then we give those sats to the users playing the games. And then we definitely know of users who have won and then, you know, go ahead and and use it back into Bitrefill, you know, for buying cards or buying whatever whatever they need.
So, you know, through Bitcoin Bouncy Hunt, through Bitcoin Rally, and all these games that we're introducing, you know, you you can begin to see that that notion of, like, the lightning economy where you can earn somewhere, spend it somewhere, earn it over here, send it over there. Right? And it's all interoperable. So you're talking about a service that sells gift cards worldwide speaking the same language as the in game currency of of this game. And that was an unthinkable, you know, 3, 4 years ago. So I think it's very powerful, that that we're able to do stuff like this.
[00:38:50] Unknown:
And specifically, I mean, previously, we might be able to get put, like, bit refill gift cards or credit. Right? The cool part is that bit refill can give you stats, and then you could either use that bit refill or you can use it at one of their competitors. You can pay some random BTC pay server or something, because it's interoperable. Yeah. I actually wanted to bring up, that game because I think that's awesome. I fucking love Mario Kart. I didn't know if we were allowed to say the words Mario Kart or not. So I'm glad that you just put that out there.
But, yeah, Mario Kart to me, like, is a perfect example of why would I ever play Mario Kart with my friends again if we couldn't didn't have stats on the line? Like, why why would I ever do that? Like, that that that is poker without money to me. Would you agree on that statement?
[00:39:34] Unknown:
I agree. If it's if it's readily available, I agree. And and similar to poker, it's one of those things where I like, okay. If it's 5 people that play a little bit more seriously and they know that they're good, they would be willing to put, you know, $50, $100, whatever it is. Right. If if it's people that aren't, and they're like, okay. Let's just put money just for sake of having money because it's boring without, but let's put $5, and it's fine. And and it would be just as great. Right? So the fact that you can go for, you know, as little as one satoshi most of the time. And and and, you know, if Bitcoin grows to $500,000, we can go to millisats, you know. We can we can always, you know, go lower. So I think I think we have plenty of room, but I would agree. I think once Bitcoin rallies out, why would you play, you know, Mario Kart without
[00:40:17] Unknown:
without Sats? Alright? I'm not laughing at Andre. All the freaks are just in the comments making fun of how I pronounce, Mario Kart, and now I don't know what's real and what's not. But, I, a 100% would would play that game that we were talking about with my boys on, like, Friday or Saturday
[00:40:34] Unknown:
for a $100 each or something, you know, like poker. Right. It'd be fun. Exactly. Yeah. Money matches with friends are always fun. I don't know. It's I I do it a lot with Super Smash Brothers,
[00:40:45] Unknown:
And yeah. Nice.
[00:40:46] Unknown:
It brings me to the money match game, I think. I I did a money match with roast beef at the lightning conference in Berlin, but he was too drunk to show up to hang hangover hangover.
[00:40:59] Unknown:
I it brings me back to my LAN days. Right? I I don't know if you I imagine you guys went to those, but, you know, where I where I I grew up, like, we had these LAN houses, right, where you just go and and before gaming was was online. Right? And you you had to go to these houses and get all your friends together and so forth. And it it just felt much more competitive. It felt felt much more like you had skin in the game because everyone was around you watching you. And I think this you know, the the additional stats brings back a little bit of that, that that sentiment there.
You you were talking about about, Smash Brothers or Smash Brothers, whatever. We we have a working so if you guys remember Rikey, which was a game that, MandelDuck built, which is like Street Fighter. Here I go saying the the names of the games. It's it's kinda like it's it's it's a it's a, fighting game, you know, 2 player fighting game. And, it's, it we're we basically, the problem with 2 player fighting games is, latency and ping. Right? When it's a a lot of players, it's fine because there's, there's a lot happening in the game and it doesn't it it's not too faulty. But, when you when you lag 1v1, it it's horrible experience. And so we found out that early on that we couldn't really do Minkox with with Raiki. So we're actually turning it into a a Smash Bros style game. We have, like, a an initial v one going, and we're gonna put a bunch of sats in it. So hopefully over the next few months, we can, invite some people for early betas and things like that.
[00:42:29] Unknown:
That sounds really cool. I'm down to to beta test for you. Especially, like, with us.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
That's another perfect example. It's it's almost like the whole, like, Nintendo lineup of games just gets completely ruined if if alternatives are are added that have sats.
[00:42:48] Unknown:
Yeah. Are your party There's branding would be awesome. Yeah. There's branding and network effects to to, you know, go against it, but I think, I think Bitcoin in general is is getting a lot of traction, and especially away from the, you know, investment aspect of it. I think people are beginning to see the the values of the network and what it can enable, new types of interactions that it can enable apart from just like, oh, it's it's better money. It's it's better, store value. It it is all those things, but it also is, you know, an extremely, fast through through Lightning, it's extremely fast, extremely cheap network to do micro transactions at scale. And and if you apply that to games, you know, the sky's the limit. So, I think people are finally beginning to see that that Bitcoin as the network is is moving forward and and enabling all these new things.
[00:43:37] Unknown:
I guess my point is I said Nintendo, but I really meant, like, I guess, like, party games. Right? Like, so so I guess we should just we should dive in now. Like, the biggest issue here in terms of online gaming in general has always been, you know, griefing and, glitches and, like, people hacking, you know, oh, hacker got my headshot and stuff. And that obviously gets amplified when you add real money into games. That obviously if you if you're playing a party game with friends, that aspect is almost completely removed, you know. Like, unless, you know, like, your friend is spending 40 hours a week, trying to figure out what's the next hack of whatever party game you're playing, you're probably gonna be fine on that. And in that regard, to me, adding some skin in the game, adding some stats in the game is just a clear net benefit. But when we talk about online and we talk about public access and we talk about opening, you know, the ability for people to be competitive, with gaming to the public and not just, like, to the top 1%. I mean, that's gotta be a major major headache on your part. No?
[00:44:44] Unknown:
So I can just report we had we had a lot of hackers already, so it's it's hard to to counter this, and it's I would say it's almost impossible. I don't know how how you feel, Andre, how how many hackers you already had.
[00:44:56] Unknown:
Yeah. Interesting. I because they're writing new hacks for for Bitcoin Bounty Hunt. Right? Or I imagine there's, general hacks around, like, aim bots and things, but, they they have to be writing stuff. Simple. Yeah. So CS GO is is definitely one of the, you know, the games that have lots of of cheaters, hackers, and all these things. We do all the the quote, unquote due diligence. Right? We only run, VAC secured servers and and all the the bits and pieces there. But, we don't have a a custom anti cheat software, like you have in Face SIT servers and ECSL and ECSA, ECSDA servers and and all these things. So, we rely a lot on on, basically, like, community. So, because we have, like, a large number of mods to help and and oversee the the the servers, but, we have gotten a handful of them. I can't say that we have had too many.
What I would say is, what thus far, what we've seen at least is, because currently there is a cost to enter, there, it it sort of removes the incentive right away because, one, it's it's similar to any sort of hacking attack. Right? What you're doing is, technically speaking, hacking will always quote, unquote be possible. Right? It it's kind of a a given, that a system will have a vulnerability at some part in some point. No software is perfect. And so, you will always have cheaters, but what we find is when we add the, these costs, right, it it it's first of all, it's costly to spend 500 sats to then earn basically nothing. Right?
If if we're doing, matches of, you know, a 1000000 sats, I think we will need to have a little bit more knowledge of, like, who these people are that are putting a 1000000 stats into the game because we we and and we'll definitely have moderators watching it because we can't, provide the sort the same sort of of, oversight that you have in an esports tournament where everyone's in the same room. Right? And you're just, like, looking at the person, and you can see their screen in their computer. So I think, but but, you know, in general, we haven't seen that many, and I think it's because it it removes the incentive when, you have to put something in. So, a lot of our servers are, Steam, for for CS GO. Is it Steam plus, Sync Plus or Premium? Sorry. So you have to, you know, pay $15 on Steam to have access to it, and then, it has to be a new account. And then you have to put some sats into the game, and then maybe you win. Right? Let's say you hack it and then you take some.
It's not enough yet to drive a large, pool of cheaters and hackers. Right? So we have not seen that many. I think as as it grows and as things progress, we will likely see more. But that's where where it's a challenge. Like Constantine was saying, it's a challenge for most online games, and, we just need to to try our best to to remove them and and just be forceful. I think if we're if we do our job of making it very costly, to cheaters and hackers, they they they don't have the incentive to come back. Once it's very easy to cheat, then it's fine. They'll keep doing it. So if we find any any sort of, you know, hacking or or cheating or anything, we bend them right away. Right? It's now a burden for them. If you wanna prove to us that you didn't cheat, like, you know, prove to us. Show us. But, there's no way for for us to to combat it and say, you know, CS GO is now, you know, hacker free, cheat free because,
[00:48:17] Unknown:
it's it's just not how it works. How would they prove to you that they didn't cheat?
[00:48:21] Unknown:
So we we're actually setting this up now where we are recording all the matches. So, basically, we're recording matches, and we have a a whole recording, functionality in Infuse. So at any point in the middle of the game, if someone, seems to be cheating, you can go into Infuse, like, which is an overlay of CS GO. You can click a button and say, hey. You choose from the list of players, and you say a little message. Right? And that gets sent to, it gets alerted to Zebedee internally as well as the moderators. Hopefully, there's someone there to check it out and and look at it. But if not, we are beginning to to set up some servers are already set up, but not all, the automatic, you know, recording. So we can go back and say, okay. This time at this player, we you know, they cheated.
Unfortunately, it's it's retroactive. It's it's, like, post game. So, you know, there's it's it's rare for us to be able to catch them on the the act unless there's someone in the match or a moderator ready to to watch it. For any bigger matches, you can rest assure that we have people looking and watching it at all players. But, you know, for your everyday match, I can't say that that's always the case. So that's where the the videos, the recordings come in handy.
[00:49:28] Unknown:
Oh, I appreciate it. The tooling from CS GO, which is pretty cool. So I need to I need to catch them live with my private admin spectator mode, and then, oh, are they just lagging, or are they really speed hacking? You have it a lot easier. I'm envious. But I think the community approach is probably best, and I think I agree. When I was playing CS, it was only on community servers with CS source is what I was playing mostly, and there was Exactly. Not a lot of hackers because you always had mods online. I think only matchmaking really made that a problem, automatic match matchmaking with millions of players, which we don't have. So
[00:50:05] Unknown:
Well, you're going to, so you gotta be get prepared for it. I, right now, to the freaks who are watching live, I have our Sphinx chat up on in the screen share, because I thought, this Freak's meme was pretty funny because we were a little bit late to start today, so shout out to Sadasorian. Freaks, I'm still trying to figure out, you know, where this Sphinx chat is going to fall into place in this, in the show. So if you join the the chat, feel free to to say different perks that you might want from being in the chat. This show is your show just as much as it's my show, and, I'm excited to see where we go with that. But the reason I wanted to bring up Swinx is because there's an interesting element here.
You can set a, basically, a security deposit for people who join. In in with Marty's case, he he runs the tails from the crypt, the tails from the crypt tribe. He said to a 100 sat. So every time you send a message, you provide a security deposit of a 100 sat for 3 hours. And if he kicks you if he kicks you because you're spamming, he'll take your 100 sets. So I I there's an interesting element here where people are, like, the the the immediate it's the bell curve meme. Right? On the left of the bell curve, the immediate thing is, oh, you add Sats into a game, and all of a sudden, scammers and hackers are gonna get worse. But I think, you know, the right side of the bell curve, is is that if you add if you add Sats into the game in in a proper way with the security deposit, maybe you can actually reduce the, you know and and you you can do exactly what you just said. You can make it so that if someone tries to scam and they get caught, they're gonna actually lose real money. And I remember specifically when Halo came out, Halo 2, I guess, was the first one that was Xbox Live.
A bunch of my friends had, like we all had early gamertag with no numbers or anything. We just had straight letters, like, with real words. And I had one friend who, like, lost his beautiful Gamertag because we were cheating on Halo 2. And it was like a real skin in the game kind of, you know, kick you in the balls. They were like they gave him, like, 3 strikes. He did his 2 strikes, and the 3rd strike, he lost it, and he got, like, real punishment for for trying to cheat in the game. Do what do you think about the potential there?
[00:52:31] Unknown:
I think this already happens. Right? The now especially with skins, nowadays, you got, like, Steam accounts that are a bunch of games. Right? And you have skins on CS GO and you have this over here and you have Valorant, this and you have, and and now you have this, like, inventory of things that are technically not money, but they're worth money inside of their own markets. Right? You could sell the scans and you could use them here and there. It it's not the monetary value, but people that have all those skins and have that inventory, once again, they're not gonna cheat because they will run the risk of losing all of that. And we I I definitely know of people who have done something similar to to your friend who's, you know, let me mess around with this and then got a warning, and then Steam was just like, no. I don't care. Let's just let's just ban this person, and he lost everything. And I think it was, like, 1,000 of dollars worse. He never did it again. Right? Because to him, it was like, okay. I lost enough that that I've I've learned my lesson. So once you it's the same with with the same with any sort of hackers. Right? It's you need to make it more costly. This is something I talk to Mandel Duck a lot when we're, like, working on on the games. It's for Minkox is because he's like, well, you know, this person found his own this extreme edge case vulnerability here when this happens.
So we just consistently add hurdles. So it's like, oh, you need to do this and then you need to find an encryption key in order to to read the message, and then you need to do this other thing to read the message. And then to find the API key, you need to do x, y, and z. And then maybe you're able to try and attack the server, but you just went 5, 6 levels deep, and it disincentivizes the the attacker, you know, a lot. So, the more I think the Sphinx chat there situation where you said with the deposit is very similar to the entrance fee of the CS GO. You don't we we do have free credit servers where you come in for the sake of playing to learn, right, to see how it goes.
But the people that are doing higher stake servers, you have to put the Sats before you you play. And so that already disincentivizes a lot of tiers because they're like, well, I'm not gonna potentially lose my sats. I want to gain sats. And if I'm putting sats on the line, there's a chance they're gonna catch me and then I lose it. Right? So the incentive's gone. Yeah. I'm I'm a big fan of of that model.
[00:54:36] Unknown:
We have we have something like a safety deposit because, our players, they run their own lightning node. Right? So they need to earn that channel first. So they need to earn about 5 k sats, and then Nice. Then only then they get light debt.
[00:54:51] Unknown:
What? They're born into debt.
[00:54:53] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. So they need to earn that channel. And and the cool thing when we when we had some our first hackers, he he did not have a channel yet, and then another one had a channel yet, but then we just closed the channel. Right? So he needed to earn another 5 k subs to be able to to play again. So So Yeah. But I think this the problem with that is that it can, like, you you you fight a couple of hackers, but you you reduce the UX for everybody.
[00:55:23] Unknown:
Right. I think it needs to be like, this idea that it's, like, the skins you have that are, like, locked in a game or it's your gamer tag that's unique, that can't be the incentive. Like, the incentive needs to be a very clear incentive. It needs to be very obvious what the company's policy is. And and because otherwise, you end up having, you know, these fucked up situations where, like, a gamer puts in, you know, 8 100 5000 hours into a game or something, and then everything they put in is just taken away from something, like, opaque policy, and, like, no one wants that. That's obviously, horrible. But, Con, like, you so this is a great time to transition. We're an hour into this show.
I do like to flex on on on other people, and that this show specifically is free and open. We have no ads, no sponsors, no paywalls. It's available for everyone fully to download. So when I say that we're 56 minutes into the show, we are in fact 56 minutes in regardless of where you listen to it. I think it's a great time to transfer into Lightning specifically because one of the things is is we would already have money in triple a games. We the the reason we have V Bucks rather than US dollars, in my opinion, in Fortnite is Technical. Is because of regulations.
It's because it's too difficult and too much friction to implement real money into games. And and this is where all of a sudden Lightning and Sats can can change that that game, but there's certain issues that a lot of people don't like talking about with lightning right now because it's early, that that that gives us these pain points that we have very similar pain points that we have, in that traditional fiat world that we're talking about. Right? And and and the the reason I say it is that I I think these games would add would add money directly into the game is because I I honestly do believe that, you know, if you if you add money and real money into a game in a you you create it so gamers can earn money playing your game, that it creates a viral a viral feedback loop that that will make your game more popular.
So so with that all said, this is a perfect this is why it's so fucking good that I have both of you on. So Khan went with he sets up a full Neutrino you run like a lightning node, a light lightning node that use Neutrino directly in the client of the game so that the user is it's a non custodial lightning experience. And you try and make it as frictionless as possible. I know you've been having a lot of pain with that, and I think you're transitioning away from that. So I do wanna talk about that. But then on the opposite side, we have Andre at Zebedee, where they provided they decided to go completely custodial because it it has way less friction on the tech side.
So so yours has Khan's implementation has more more friction on on the tech side, and Zebedee's solution has more friction on the regulatory side. I had to confirm my email address. I had to and now now I I guess I can make 250,000 sats a a day or something, and then I have to KYC because it's custodial, which is the same friction that, like, a Fortnite would have if they added PayPal or something. Can we talk about this? Can we, like, talk about, like I mean, I look. The at the end of the day, it's actually a very similar situation as with especially with streaming. I mean, look, we're streaming through Twitch. For someone who's trying to operate a show like this, where if I wanted to collect tips, like, the holy grail of collecting tips and gamifying the experience of you streaming stats to me while you're watching the show is if I have a static QR code.
So I think I think the holy grail, and I think both of you guys would agree with me, what we want is the ability for a streamer to have a static QR code that's completely non custodial with no KYC, and anyone can scan it at any time and pay that streamer, and and and there's no friction and it's permissionless or permission as permissionless as possible. That's the holy grail. That's where we're going. Can we talk about, you know, the trade offs here and and what we're what you guys are battling in in real time?
[00:59:45] Unknown:
Do you do you want me to start? I mean, I have a lot to talk about Yes. Go. Starting. Yeah. Go. Why or why did we want to do this neutrino stuff? We're based in Germany. Germany is very strict. You have a lot of rules. You cannot simply store funds for your users. Right? So we thought not only would it be really cool, and it's entirely possible to do that, that our users run their own node, but we basically thought it was mandatory. And so what we did is our game has this launcher, which is a full LND in neutrino mode, and the user has full custody over his coins. But as you said, it has a lot of pain points. It's the access is horrible. We need a because users need to be online every I don't know. It's if they're online often, we didn't find, like, how how much they really need to to be online, but there's so many pain points.
And this the you the technical UX pain points, but then also the liquidity that we do provide. Right? So we we I said earlier that a user needs to play 5 k Sats to earn a channel. That's horrible UX. And, also, we need to then provide the liquidity for the channel. So we have someone who plays for for, I don't know, a good 2 days happy hours or 2 evenings happy hour. He earns his 5 k SATs. Now we open a channel with, I think, 60 k is what we open with. Now these 60 k sats are locked. And we have, 1600 users, so not everyone has a channel yet, but it's a lot of liquidity we need to lock up. And, yeah, it's it's such a pain point, which is why we never had Linux and Mac support. And I think it is the goal, and what you set with the steady QR code, it was it was basically possible. You could key send to a user. Right? Which is what we did, which is pretty cool. But, yeah, what we're switching to is, we show a QR code. You need to scan it with your wallet, which, supports lnurlout, which which Prius does, for example, or Phoenix does. And then you're locked in with your wallet. The Satoshi as well? Or no? Yet. Not yet. I I I asked Phoenix.
Right?
[01:02:05] Unknown:
Yes. Breeze and and Phoenix. Breeze and Phoenix are the ideal mobile noncustodial
[01:02:10] Unknown:
wallets for for new users. I would agree. Right? Yeah. I would agree. So Yeah. What Breeze is doing is what we did. Right? But they focus their whole, attention to to to this
[01:02:22] Unknown:
because they also have a neutrino node on on on the phone. But we also wanted to create a game. So for us, it's just okay. We can't do both. When you switch to that, con when you switch to that, you're switching to a custodial model. Right? Like, you're gonna hold the stats for people until they're ready to withdraw.
[01:02:37] Unknown:
Yeah. But we will just allow whatever regulatory will will need us to, basically. I think it's fine. Yeah. The friction in in lighting would be so simple. You play around, and then you see a QR code, and you need to withdraw, basically.
[01:02:52] Unknown:
But the problem comes into there's no with Phoenix and and Breeze, I can't get a static QR code that I can post on the stream, for instance, right now. Right? Like, even something like tipping dot me, which is what I'm currently using if you wanna support the show, tipping dot me slash at mattunderdashodel. Like, that's custodial. That's completely custodial, and it's not even a static QR code. It's not lnurl.
[01:03:17] Unknown:
So we we have a project which where where you could connect your note and which would allow you to have a steady QR code, which uses lnurl pay, and you would send an invoice to the wallet then, which is which is what we use for for, our Twitch stream where you can pay the user. So there is a way with this lnurl scheme, but there's not really a way yet for for people to enable it without, like, this proxy type of thing. But I it's it's it's entirely possible with lnurl pay to have a static QR code which pays to your noncustodial
[01:03:50] Unknown:
node. There's just not too close to that. Right? We're close Yeah. We gotta be close to that. Like like so, basically, what as as as a gaming company, what you what you want is you want a Breeze or a Phoenix, like an Async or something to figure out a way to make it so that your gamers can just provide a QR code, and then you don't even need I guess, if you could do it in house, Andre, so you actually built a wallet. You built a separate wallet. Yeah. Let me cbd.gg. Let's talk about, you know, what what the thought is into how that ended up.
[01:04:21] Unknown:
Sure. Let me just, touch on one thing. I think the, you know, Breeze and and Phoenix are great, and I think there are technicals that are in the works from, multiple implementations in different ways, to solve the issue of static QR codes and so forth. I know in the LND front, there is, you know, the the full blown AMP support, which would provide static QR codes for some static charges. And I know on the c lightning front, Rusty's working on on lightning offers, which is, you know, much more expensive. Not not expensive, but expensive than, you know, the the general, like, just l n u r l pay. It has many more features, but it's also being worked on. So I don't think it's that far off to imagine a world where a non custodial lightning wallet, if online, could have a static QR code without a separate proxy. I think that's that's that's sooner than than not. But, we're talking about, you know, on the lightning side of things and the implementation.
So there is a little bit of of of technical things to go through there. On the on the Zebedee front, so, you know, we, the the wallet was something we want we wanted to do for a while, even before Zebedee started. It's something that I've been toying with. And and really, it's it's from experience, talking to, other folks that aren't as technical, and and just generally, you know, into the Bitcoin world. It's it's very confusing. Like, all of this is super, super complex to them. Right? And, you know, there there are wallets that we could we could send in to, you know, your your newbie friend, and they would be able to pick it up. But it's still you still need to understand the channels, and you still need to understand, like, why couldn't I do x and why couldn't I perform y transaction? And, so, our view was that, to onboard the next, you know, 1,000,000, 10,000,000, a 1,000,000,000, 5,000,000, people, we, can't really depend and or wait on that the technicals to be there. I think, you know, our take was that, look, we can provide the UX. We can abstract this this massive complexity, and take care of that. So we Zebedee is not a gaming studio. Zebedee is an infrastructure provider. We, happen to create some games, and we happen to create products, geared towards the gaming world because that's that's our vertical. But, we're not trying to be a gaming studio competing with triple a games and and so forth. So, the wallet, what it what it does is it's like you said, it's a custodial wallet where, you're you go from from 0 to lightning, within, you know, an email password flow.
So so it's very familiar. It does there are trade offs, and I don't think there's anything that Donna Lab commenting, unfortunately not with. But, so, it's it's custodial in the sense that that we hold the funds for you. But, you know, with lightning, I think one of the things we we like to say is you don't have to keep it. Keep it as much as you keep on your wallet in your back pocket. Right? It's not meant to be your your Bitcoin wallet where you're you're storing your funds, and this is this is gaming money. Right? This is, you know, your $50 on the on your wallet. It's a $10, $50. So because Lightning is so fast, if you whether you have a node or whether your exchange supports Lightning or whether you, you know, you have a way to send it out, you can you can send it out at the end of the day, at the end of the week, whatever.
One one of the things that I, you know, I I definitely don't like about the way, certain companies have handled the the custodialness of of Bitcoin is, the situation that you talk about sometimes, Matt, which is like the locking the funds. It's like locking your locking your funds until you KYC.
[01:07:54] Unknown:
Shock and KYC is actually like a it's a common term now. I I think I created it. I'm not sure.
[01:08:00] Unknown:
Yeah. So I I don't think, like, you know, we don't know the future, but this is something I stand by, and and I really don't want to ever be in a position where we have to do that. And I I I'd like to say that we would never do that, because, the the way we set it up is, look, you have certain limits, and the limits reach on the daily. And then if you reach those limits, okay, tomorrow, you can you can take it your your sets out. It's fine. Like, we're not we're not in a position where we're gonna, you know, do what what's called shotgun, verification. So, but because we were talking about regulations and stuff, so be because we're a custodial, platform and we're trying to be, an infrastructure provider for, your large studios. Right? The the the the goal really here is, like you were saying earlier, is to partner with large studios to to bring this into a much larger audience.
And, unfortunately, for them, there's absolutely no way that they would do that with a nonregulated company. There it's just not a future for them. They may even become regulated themselves in order to do it. So we are pursuing all of the licenses and all the things, and, there are certain things that we push back on and there are certain things that we try to to work around. Right now, for example, we we only support Lightning, and I think that's great because Lightning is inherently, different than on chain Bitcoin, and and there are benefits to that. So, we we only support Lightning. We have plans for on chain, but but we don't yet. And, there are limits which are risk based. Right? I think, if we keep limits low and people are playing games, that's fine. You wanna play games, you you wanna put $5 here, $10 here, that's totally fine. We we have no issue, and there's no verification. There's nothing needed. You download the wallet. You use it. That's fine.
If you're taking the wallet for a little bit more than your your daily gaming and you wanna have some funds, the the reality is that we must, know if you're doing, you know, $200 worth of transactions back and forth, you're buying things here, you're buying things there. At this point, we have to have some information. So it it does provide a much, much better UX, at a trade off. Right? And I think that what Bitcoin enables is these types of trade offs. If you'd like to be fully self sovereign, you have that opportunity, and all of our services are fully interoperable with your node, with your wallets, with any of the wallets. Everything is is fine.
It's about having options. If you don't have the option, I think it's a problem, but you do have the option. And so if you'd like to go to introduce your friend to Bitcoin, what happens a lot is people say, hey. Download Coinbase. Why is that? It's it's not self sovereign, but it's because it's the simplest UX. It's the it's the, you know, the the best way to do it. But then you you want to teach them. You want to educate them to learn about the other topics and the other fronts that Bitcoin enables in in the case, you know, self sovereignty. So, we we do that for for a reason. Like, look, once you reach our limits, either you do a or you do b, and and we can provide you, you know, help and guidance on on how to do those.
But I I like to just say, like, I don't think a user removing the funds from Infuse and then putting them into Wallet or Satoshia or Breeze or Phoenix means that we lost a customer. Like, I don't see it that way. Right? I think, our wallet is not necessarily meant to be hosting, you know, 5 Bitcoin worth. That's not the point. It's a lightning wallet. It's it's meant to be your gaming wallet. So I I don't see it as losing a a user or a customer. Like, we actually see it as, you know, they're taking the the right steps to be at a position where they're more self sovereign or where they're more in control of their keys or whatever they'd like to do. So Bitcoin enables that, And I think we we're using, the technology of it and and and abstracting a lot of the UX, the the complexities to provide the best UX to onboard the other the other million.
[01:11:39] Unknown:
Comes at a trade off, but, that's that's the reality. I mean, I I first of all, I appreciate you being so discreet with the freaks and with myself, and, and that's also my I'm not trying to hide anything. Right? It's Yeah. I mean, look look look, Andre, I know you you've always been discreet with me in bars, but, I mean, we're public here. So I I do appreciate the discretion. It does it does go a long way. I do think one of the underrated nice things about custodial lightning is that you are able to, with relatively little friction, withdraw. Right? Yeah. So you can withdraw frequently. And this is, you know, why I continue to use tip and dot me, is that I just constantly I'm I'm just constantly withdrawing, and it's it's a fine trade off for me because worst comes to worst. I think ultimately at some point that site's gonna get shut down, and I'll lose $50 worth of Bitcoin or $75 worth of Bitcoin, and it's a trade off I'm willing to make for just convenience. It's a convenience trade off. It's a very easy to use service.
The the real concern, right, is ultimately if regulators clamp down and say that 250,000 sats per day is is too much, and they try and make it lower and lower and lower, and then you kinda you kinda have to come up with something else. But but meanwhile, right now, for most gamers, 250,000 sats. What is that? It's like a $150. Like, that's a pretty reasonable, I think that's a pretty reasonable trade off to make for just email verification for convenience sake. But let's be honest, I'm a Bitcoiner. Right? Ultimately, I want some random 13 year old in Singapore to win, like, the $10,000,000 jackpot, completely anonymously to his own node. Right? Like, that that that's where I want us to be at. Right?
[01:13:20] Unknown:
And I think there, we were saying, like, you can you can withdraw often and frequently. I think, that's something, I'm just gonna it's fine to talk about it. We're we're looking into not not looking. We have, like, prototypes and we're we're developing, the the you know, everyone's talking about streaming sats. Right? And, what we're gonna do is essentially allow you to create what what were we saying? Like, you you select another payment or another node, another something, through an lnurl pay. So in the sense of of of, Constantine talking about Bitcoin bouncing on, it's like, look. Here's my node and here's my lnurlpay QR code. So you will be able to scan it with your Zebedee wallet and then dictate, you know, every so often, send this many sats to this wallet until x. Right? And so it's empty or until I reach 50,000 sats or whatever. And you'll be able to let that happen, period. Like, the wallet is closed and on your phone and and so you're you're just consistently taking funds out of Zebedee into whatever you'd like it to be.
So once again, it's facilitating, the the the onboarding and the use of of lightning and and and games and so forth, but not really removing your ability to, be slightly more private and slightly more sovereign where, you know, you consistently just withdraw. You don't even need to do it manually. You set it up once, and then you just you just have recurring streaming of payments, back to a to a note of yours. So, there are steps in that direction, and I think there are technical steps too. I think there are things that are happening in lightning that will provide us, with with some more capabilities on the on the protocol layer.
But,
[01:14:53] Unknown:
yeah, that it's it's it's where we where we stand now. Are you I mean, so this is an issue that is also facing Sphinx chat. Mhmm. Is is is this idea it's it's trying to make lightning work in a non custodial fashion. I I mean, I think most importantly is because of regulations, because we don't want the KYC friction. And what's really interesting about what they did, I don't know if it's implementable with gamers, and this is Con. This is what I thought was really cool that you did that you tried to you tried to go this route where you just implemented a Neutrino node in in the software itself. Is that this idea is they they just add they're calling it they're calling it the Uncle Jim model, but they're also calling it multitenant. I think it's kinda funny and cool that uncle Jim is, like, just a known nomenclature in this case now. All the freaks know it.
But, they had this multi tenant model, right, where, like, you can run Sphinx on your Umbral as a podcaster, and then everyone you on onboard into your Sphinx chat, you onboard through your own node instead of them running the node. Because if they ran the node, then all of a sudden you start entering custodial you you enter regulatory gray areas and stuff. And and a perfect analogy in the gaming world, I think, is I own the new Xbox. I don't know what I don't know what do they call it now? The Xbox? I have the nicest one. Xbox 1 x or something. I don't know. Yeah. Something like that. They make they they make the naming really confusing now.
And, they have a remote gaming feature, so I can game from any mainstream Android or iPhone, iOS device. But the the the regulations dictate that even though Microsoft runs the largest cloud servers in the world, I can't I can't stream from their Azure Stack. I can't I can't stream from their globally accessible high speed servers because then all of a sudden, they have to pay the gaming companies different, you know, licensing fees and stuff. So instead, what they did was they literally implemented Node at Home, you know, into into the stack. So so your Xbox is running at home. It's it's connected to Fios. It's connected to fiber Internet, and then it it it broadcast to your to your to your, like, tablet or your phone or whatever.
It's a feature that I've never used, but it's pretty cool that I I it's it's a feature that exists purely because of the regulations. Right? And it's it's something that to me in my head makes a lot of sense. Right?
[01:17:36] Unknown:
Yeah. It's pretty cool. I mean, Google did that with Stadia where you need to buy it. Right? So they tried to do it. But with Stadia, it comes Stadia comes from Google servers, and they have licensing fees. Right? To pay you need to buy the games on Stadia. Right? So it's like a Netflix subscription even. Right. But you you can also do it with chief or something with your PC game. So With Xbox, you're streaming it to yourself.
[01:17:58] Unknown:
You're streaming the game to yourself only because of regulations, because you have to with regulations, and the the the user would have no idea.
[01:18:06] Unknown:
So if your Internet at home sucks, your streaming sucks? Then the user knows. But if the user's Internet
[01:18:12] Unknown:
is good, they just don't even realize. It's, like, very it's a very seamless kind of experience.
[01:18:18] Unknown:
I think it's similar to the Stadia model where if you have 1 gigabyte,
[01:18:21] Unknown:
you know, fiber, it's beautiful experience. But everyone else that doesn't have that, it's it's a a lesser of an experience of playing games. At least my experience so far with Stadia has not been great. No. But Andre, you're not see the you're not you don't see the difference there? Like, you have you you literally have a company that is, like, top 3 cloud server operators in the world, Microsoft, and I'm streaming the game from my $600 piece of hardware that's at home, you know, that cost less than a Nodle Dojo, and it's sitting at home, and I'm streaming it from that only because of regulations.
[01:19:00] Unknown:
Do you think it's regulations or contract mess? Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's yeah. Contract mess. Not regulations. Contract mess. But I think I I would guess they're working on cloud gaming as well. They just have figured out all all the things yet. I mean, there's a lot of talk about cloud gaming always, but I I agree that the Ang Gym model for gaming is also here yet. You also do it with Steam, and it's it works pretty pretty well. I agree. What's with Steam? How does that work? You can just, it's also it's also you can also play with friends, I think. You can play, like, games that are only designed for local co op. You can I would I don't know how how it's called, but it's like Steam friend play or something, and it really works? You can play these local games, co op, over the wire.
[01:19:47] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where you where where only one person has to own the co op. Yeah. Exactly. Which makes sense. Interesting.
[01:19:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.
[01:19:58] Unknown:
Yeah. But back to Lightning, I think, the the noncustodial, it's just Lightning is too expensive. I mean, in the last with the 10 k prices, we could afford that, but right now, we can't. So what about 3.
[01:20:12] Unknown:
Layer 3.
[01:20:14] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I think, again, if if we advance, lightning, you know, a few years, I think there are things that will become possible. Right? If we're, right now, it's very expensive to hit the chain. Like, it's just prohibitively expensive for, a game, like a single player of a single game to hit the chain every time they need to withdraw because they need to open a channel. That's prohibitively expensive. But, you know, if if you're talking about, like, multi peer channels and you're talking about, like, opening channels without, needing to hit the chain because you're you're doing some sort of, like, there's a service that pools them together and then opens a big, you know, a a single, transactional chain, opens multiple channels.
Like, there's there's many ways to make it cheaper for that and then including, like, improvements on AMP and and possibly, like, the the offer situation that that I mentioned already. So I think I think there are technical items and and and, you know, advancements that can improve it. But in general, I I agree with with the sentiment. It's it's, with Lightning, it's it's very hard to to provide that user experience right now in a non custodial way in in the game. Right? Like, as as we're speaking about. Yeah.
[01:21:25] Unknown:
I mean, this is this is, like, a a key aspect of lightning that I wanted to discuss because I think you guys are are on the front lines of it. And it it really is, like, it it is gonna be this is the next, you know, it it it is something it is the next main pain point as Bitcorders that I think we need to focus on. Right? Is this idea of making a non custodial lightning experience that is as frictionless as possible. And I think it's really cool what Breeze and Phoenix are doing. But, you know, depending on how regulators approach that, they even might not be noncustodial enough.
So it it should be interesting to see how that all plays out. Yeah. That's Yeah. There's there's different models of non custodialness.
[01:22:14] Unknown:
Right? And, yeah, Phoenix has their their own and and Breeze has their own. And, you can you can make the argument on the other side, but I think they are the, the the most noncustodios you can get now. Especially if you if you receive funds, you and then you possibly even close the channel with their, with the the upstream, right, with the Breeze and async, for example. Then you're you're truly noncustodial. But until you're doing that, you're you're still a little bit under under their umbrella. It's it's a you know, it's it's what we like to I like to say to my friends who are are not in this space. It's they they they see the price rise and all of this, and and I tell them, like, if there is no war to to be fought, then, like, did we actually win something? Right? Like, because Yes. We did win. If if there's no war, we won. No. I I understand the sense. Right? But but, it you know, there there has to be conflict. Like, there will be. It's inevitable. There will be conflict. There will be, you know, you can call it a war. But, if if there isn't one, it it was too easy. Right? It Right. Right. There there has to be, and and I think it'll start at the fringes of regulation as it as it has been for the past, you know, however long you wanna say 6, 7, 8 years. And, lightning is the next frontier, and and, you know, I I hope, Zebedee and and Donner Lab are are good, you know, people to have at the at the at the edges and and trying to to speak. And, I can I can tell you that, compliance is is one of the the most tedious things, but it's it's a necessity in in the way we designed our business model? And, we're gonna do our best to to be at a position where we can push back on things.
So I I hope to always be able to to answer these questions on on interviews like this. Yeah. Switching Yeah. Go on. Yeah. Switching a little bit. I'd love to to talk a a little bit about some things we're coming up with with Infuse, which I think is is pretty cool, you know, specifically. Yeah. So right now, in in few CS GO, we have the the tournament mode, right, which is, basically, you need to to gather people at the same time, and then the match starts. You have a warm up, and then you play around. And then, you know, basically, each each player has a a a share of the pot. What we got next, which is which is basically taken from the, the the the real notion of Ready Player 1, if you ever watched that movie, there's there's a a scene on planet Doom. Such a nerd for me to know that. There's a scene on planet on planet Doom. I've watched that movie so many times, where, the one of the I forget the character's name, but they're just going around in this planet, and it's kind of just like shooting around players. And when they when they get killed, you see the coins move out, and then they, like, grab the coins. Right? And and this is, I think, the the world that we would like to have, which is, like, you know, this world where this is the big version.
Right. Sure. Exactly. Of of the the sats are, like, part of it. It's kinda it's kinda like your life, but not not really your life. So, what we came up with is actually a new mode of of CS GO, and CS GO has lots of modes. You got competitive. You got casual. You got, you know, team deathmatch and so on. The one we have, we're calling it tournament mode. It's it's a, you know, free for all deathmatch. And then, the the the one that we're coming up with is called survival mode. And it's basically you come in and you put, like, a 1,000 sats. Right? And that's the entrance. And you basically have a 1,000 sats in your life. Like, your life in the server is a 1,000 sats. Killing someone, if you kill someone, you get their sats. So they lose, you know, 50 sats. So it's independent your score is independent of everyone else. And this is something that happens in CS go a lot is we basically remove the notion that you have to get together to play because you can just have forever running servers, and people can just come in and play and and exit at any point. Right? So they come in, they shoot around, and and they win some stats. Okay. I'm done. I wanna get out, so I I exit. But if you lose enough stats, you get kicked from the server because you you don't have any more stats to play around. Right?
So we're coming up with that, and that's really cool. We've been testing it. It's I I think we're gonna make that the main, infuse mode because it's just a little quite a bit better. And with that, we recently launched the, the on a slightly separate note, we recently launched the the Zebedee Discord bots and and Telegram bots. So, the wallet, allows you to pair it with the Discord and Telegram bots that you can add to your own servers and you can use in our servers, and you can you can use, like, commands to do sending of stats back and forth through, you know, something like z send, and then you you set it apart. So we actually added that into CS go through survivor mode. So you can imagine where, if you're playing around and you have a 1,000 sats and your buddy is here and he has, like, 20 sats, and if he dies one more time, he's gonna get kicked, you can actually z send 50 to Constantine, and then you're sending him your life. Right? You're like, hey. I'm giving you, I'm giving you stats so that you can continue here. So I think there's a lot of incentive structures that we can create around, like, team death match on this because you don't want your teammates to go out because you need bodies. So you're gonna give part of your health out to this other player. So we we're we're gonna come out with that. It's really, really exciting. And then on top of that, we're gonna come out with sponsored servers where similarly to to Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, you have, sponsors who have, you know, you know, I guess, billboards, right, on the on the maps themselves. So we're we're getting maps that are are open source maps, and we're editing those and and adding, you know, the thing here or there, and making it so that, the the entrance fee for those servers are necessarily free paid by a sponsor.
So it's a similar model. It's not it's not the same. And then lastly, we're actually playing around with the notion of audience participation, you can, you know, bring out a QR code, which is static QR code. And if your audience pays it, it affects your gameplay. The first mode that we set up is there's this drug mode in CS GO where your your vision gets skewed and you walk slower and you move around, but it gives you sats. So if you're dying in the game, you can actually hide and get your your audience like, hey. Give me sats. So they give you life and you continue, but your gameplay is all screwed up, so you can't see straight and you can't move right or left. So the audience dig that. Yeah. The audience moves from passive to be an active audience member, and I think that's really powerful. So there's a few things coming to 10fuse that we're really excited for.
[01:28:53] Unknown:
The there's almost, like, 2 different elements. It's like, the idea of of building a platform that is fun for the average user versus, you know, we have this whole new streamer culture. Right? You know, we're broadcasting on Twitch right now, where you could build a cool tool that is just a cool game that is just designed for, like, the top a 100 streamers, with with it you're right with incentive setup that their audience is, like, basically playing the game with them, by by pushing stats through them.
[01:29:26] Unknown:
It's it's similar to to Constantine's Bitcoin Bounty where, like, the audience can put a bounty on someone else. And so you're actually putting a bounty on a player who you actually want to get killed because the fact that there's more bounty on their head, it means that so whoever kills them gets more stats. So it changes the dynamic completely. We have something similar with Bitcoin rally as well where, given enough, power ups from the audience, a this this quote unquote god mode happens and then there's like thunder and lightning all over the screen and you can't really see straight and you're hitting the walls. And and, you know, the first player that was was at the front, you know, at the end of the this, like, 15 second thing is the 3rd player, and it completely changes the, the the the gameplay. So we're we're really excited for for these types of of, you know, breaking the audience, breaking the the wall between the audience and the game.
And and this is this goes back to to what I was saying about Zebedee. We, we actually started with, a a developer dashboard because we thought, you know, why wouldn't gamers want to build games with Bitcoin? This is so simple and straightforward. Like, why would you not want this? But it's but it's early days, and I think, it's it's, you know, something that we need to show. We need to provide options and and real games to to prove to the the current gaming industry that, like, this is possible. This is real. This is what we can enable. So I think, Bitcoin Bouncing Out was was a great game to showcase that because it's a complete game. Right? Like, you have the entire experience. You have the shooting. You have the the dying. You have all of it.
And I think, CS GO brings it on another level because CS GO is, you know, quote unquote a sweep a triple a game. It's like a full on, you know, massive game, and I think it takes that a step further. So, you know, I think the the reason why we're not a gaming studio is because it's an uphill battle against giants. And so we are infrastructure providers and and consumer products for the gaming industry as a whole. So we're actually focusing a lot on streaming. We're focusing a lot on on the audience participation, right, in Mincox. That's a really big piece of it, because we want to prove the new types of things and interactions that are enabled by lightning. Because changing you know, removing your fiat rails and putting lightning, it's great. Right? But it it's it's it's not that much better. The experience of someone going to the deli down the street or the bodega and paying with a an Apple Pay or ping by scanning a QR code. Like, those experiences are not that much better. Right? Like, it it it it's not a 10 x improvement or a 100 x improvement. And for a user to change their ways, you really need that 10 x improvement. You really need, it needs to be really clearly better. Right? It it it shouldn't be a question of if or when. And I think Lightning enables things that aren't possible with the dollar. Right now you have, you were mentioning this earlier, Matt. Like you have the the cheapest thing you can buy online period 2 dollars is like 99¢.
Like, that's the cheapest thing. And and that's an app store. And really, it's like 129 because they add tax on it. So Mhmm. 999¢ is the the the cheapest. And with with Lightning, you can go, like I was saying, all the way to 1 sat and possibly later on, even millisats. So there are types of interactions that are inherently impossible with legacy infrastructure, and it's inherently, you know, trivial with Lightning. And I think that's what we want to push forward. The same sort of things that, Constantine and Bitcoin Bouncing Hunter are pushing forward. These new types of interactions that aren't possible.
[01:32:51] Unknown:
It's always gonna be the challengers. It's always gonna be the challengers that innovate. You know, League of Legends isn't gonna innovate. Call of Duty didn't innovate. Yep. Right? They didn't innovate. Fortnite came in. Epic came in. They innovated. And no, really, the other game innovated. What was that first, such a dick. Yeah. Pubg? Pubg. Yeah. They were the first ones to fucking innovate. Right? And then they just got their asses handed to them by Epic Games. But, this idea, right, that that we're gonna have triple a games just add stats will never fucking happen at first. They need to they need to feel like their pants are on fire before they do it. Yeah. I agree.
[01:33:29] Unknown:
But I think modding is probably a big thing. So I think you can mod a game to to have lightning. And then maybe if these just wanted, they will play on infused servers versus normal servers. So I think modding with modding, it's entirely possible.
[01:33:46] Unknown:
That's the idea behind Infuse. Right? It's That's fun. Games.
[01:33:50] Unknown:
That's fun. You're, like, sticking your foot in the door, you know, but that's different, right, than the game shipping with fucking Sass. Yeah. That's
[01:33:57] Unknown:
true. That's true. It's it's the difference between an a pop up and a native advertiser. Right? It's built into the fabric of it. And I think I think that, Matt, you're spot on where, there's no incentive whatsoever for them at this point. Right? Not only is is the infrastructure not there for the level of, like, Steam is seeing, you know, 20,000,000 active users concurrently. Like, we are not at a position where Lightning is ready for 20,000,000 concurrent users making payments up and down. I don't know that that we're there yet. I think I would like to say we're not, but we will be soon. So, you know, there's very little incentive. They control the rails. They control the economy. They they, you know, they do whatever they want. I think, you know, Infuse and and CS GO is is a way to show them what's out there. Like, this is what's new, on a real game. Right? And and and it's a real as in, like, on a on a, you know, triple a big big title game.
And we can show it. Okay. And then let's say we get a bunch of traction. Okay. Then we get a bunch of servers. Okay. We get a bunch of gamers. And then we start seeing people want different games. So okay. Let's infuse Minecraft. Let's infuse DOTA 2. Let's infuse, League of Legends. Let's infuse Fortnite. There's a bunch of games that we can't infuse because of the way they are and the way they're set up, but there's a bunch of games we can. You know, so imagine a future where we have Minecraft infused, DOTA 2 infused, CS GO Minecraft is already infused.
[01:35:14] Unknown:
We did that first.
[01:35:16] Unknown:
Yeah. So, you know, you get to a place where it's it's inevitable that they will start asking questions. It it's it's impossible for them to see traction elsewhere. It's it's similarly to Among Us. Right? There will eventually be a game. I I don't think it's the games that we're talking about right now, but there will eventually be a game that is lightning powered and Bitcoin powered, and it will blow up the same way you have Among Us, which is a game that is relatively simple, but it just exploded. That's a super game. Right. And and it's it's fun to play with friends, but, you know, that that's basically it. It's like not not my fault. Secret Hitler. Right?
[01:35:51] Unknown:
That's one way to put it. Yeah. But, I mean, it's a it's a known game format. Right? Right.
[01:35:57] Unknown:
And
[01:35:58] Unknown:
and I think Verbal or mafia or what's Right. Right. Secretively. Right. Right. Where there's one person's the mole, and you're trying to figure out the moles. Right?
[01:36:06] Unknown:
Didn't know that. Yeah. Exactly. How would you because there's open source versions of it, how would you infuse lightning there in in a among us type game or secret Hitler type game?
[01:36:18] Unknown:
I think for for those games, there's, you know, what we can infuse at the moment, are servers that we can host. So if we can host the server of Among Us, we and, you know, get some information from that server, we should be able to infuse it. So it's it's not necessarily it's what I was saying earlier. It's not necessarily that every game can be infused. And then there are also big, publishers that completely disable that, like, capability. So for example, Epic Games has in their terms of service, big and bold. We do not allow any cryptocurrency in our games. Like, so if Really?
Yeah. So let's say we add it. Wow. Right? Even even as a mod even as a mod, let's assume that we add it and then we get a little bit of attraction. All it takes is one person from the Fortnite world and and Epic Games and be like, oh, these guys are doing this. It's illegal. Shut them up. Welcome. Right? But the team has that as well, by the way.
[01:37:12] Unknown:
So as well? Like, tolls under the yeah. Because we were rejected from Steam, Bitcoin Bounty Hunt, because we use, cryptocurrencies. Every payment that goes through a Steam game must be done via Steam Wallet.
[01:37:26] Unknown:
I feel like they could at least they could at least do us the respect of saying Bitcoin instead of cryptocurrency. Like, if you're gonna ban us in the terms and conditions, at least be like Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency. And others. That's true. Con, do you see this question from Sam Weiner Yeah. Or Weiner? He wants to know if if you'll be creating new maps for Bitcoin bounty hunt?
[01:37:46] Unknown:
So the cool thing is, I already announced on MintGox that's Bitcoin Bounty Hunt. Everything that all the back ends, all the stuff that you that uses the payments and stuff will be open sourced next month. So while we might currently not work on new maps, creating new maps is super easy, and you will be able to or creators will be easily able to create their own maps, and then they will be able to monetize creating those maps. So because we think that content creation is pretty cool, we can monetize it in Bitcoin Bounty. And so if your map gets played, you will get sent sats. So and we want to do this. So it will be open source, and everyone can create maps, and we might have a DAS 2 competitor on Bitcoin Bounty, and We're gonna have, like, a 1000000 maps. There's gonna be a fucking insane amount of maps.
Yeah. And we have we have community hosted servers and stuff like this because do you ever
[01:38:47] Unknown:
do you remember that do you know that game, the motorcycle game that I'm talking about that you had community generated map? I know what you mean. It's like happy days or something. It's like every game every map was, like, glitchy as fuck, though. Like, there was, like, it was, like, I I feel like if they could make stats on it, maybe the the maps would not be so extreme. They'd be more, like, legitimate. You know? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like like, it was it was you had to ride the you had to ride the the motorbike, and you had to keep you couldn't fall off the motorbike. It was a side scroller. And they would make the map where you would do, like, insane loops and shit, and it was just, like, always like like, they were rewarded basically for going as aggressive as fucking possible, but, like, we never finished the track. It was just, like, impossible to finish the track in in the user created modes, at least the big ones.
Yep. But I feel like if if you add in an incentive for people to create these user created tracks or user created maps, Trials. Yep. Thank you, BTC pins. So In the comments. If you added an incentive there, then maybe they'll actually polish it out. Right?
[01:39:56] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I mean, a server hoster would decide to what what map he will want to have in the rotation, so you won't have as many shitty maps probably.
[01:40:08] Unknown:
And I think that that, if it's called trials, isn't yeah. I think it's trials. It's definitely trials. It's a 100% trials is the game I'm talking about.
[01:40:15] Unknown:
Great game. There's,
[01:40:17] Unknown:
there's also the I I know we're seeing the holy grail is, you know, getting, triple a's game studios to adopt this. But we, you know, we we forget, sometimes that, I don't I don't know if you remember this, but Kongregate, Milliclip, and all of these, you know, portals of of web games, they're seeing millions and millions of users a month still. Like, we're talking we're talking about like there's a lot of small, tiny web based games that can very easily introduce Sats. And there's no walled garden to be worried about. There's no, you know, this and that that can't be done. And, you know, it it it again, it changes the incentives. I think there's really cool things that can be done at a smaller scale similar to Among Us. Right? We could infuse Among Us or a a a game like it. And and it doesn't have, like, the sharpest, and the crispest and and polygons on all over the place because it's so high def. Right? It's it's, it's just the game based on the game itself. And it's a small game and it's great and it has stats. And Right. Those stats can speak to the other game over there and then another game and you can get it out and you can do this. And, so there, you know, there is this whole, world of of, like, the long tail of indie game developers and web based games that aren't necessarily your triple a games, that that, you know, we're definitely seeing some interest in people asking. After seeing CS GO and after seeing Bitcoin Bounty Hunt and and the games we show at Mincox, it's like, oh, how do I get started? And they're like, oh, here's the dashboard. Here's how you get started, and here's this, this, and that.
So there is interest, you know, not only from the the triple a on on that side because there's there's little incentive for them now, but, on the indie game side, there's a lot of of incentives for them to add it. I think there's anywhere from, like, 500 to a 1000, games deployed to the App Store every day, man. That's just like it's absurd number. It's so saturated. So you need to stand out. If your game is just another tiny game, you're talking, like, 0.0001% chance of your game getting user base. But if you add a new incentive thing, and maybe you add Bitcoin and you take advantage of the trend that we're seeing now, maybe you can set yourself apart. Right? And your game can can be set apart and, like, oh, okay. This is But that's what I'm saying. Right? It's like is is, you know, people under under count,
[01:42:33] Unknown:
you know, non gamers under count the the the the significance of the fact that we're adding stats to games. Like, I I think, like, it's gonna be a fucking massive I mean, Farmville, what was the what was the parent company of Farmville? You know who I'm talking about. Right? Yeah. Is it Zynga? Zynga? Zynga. Right? Like like that whole idea of, like, the mobile gaming format, came out of nowhere. It, like, it completely came out of nowhere and all of a sudden everyone was fucking doing it. Right? Like, if if if you have a solid setup if if all it takes is one one small company in the mobile sphere that fucking kills it with sats in the game, and then all of a sudden, every shitty fucking app in the App Store, every single shitty game in the App Store is gonna be the derivative of that same exact product.
[01:43:28] Unknown:
I agree. I think it's a network effect I think it's a network effect thing. It's gonna take one game to to to let's just call it blow up. Right? Like, the the same scenario of Among Us or Lightsaber, in VR, like pub PUBG or all of them. And, you know, it it it'll take one of those that sets the standard, and then people are like, oh, this is where we're headed. So let's focus on that. And then I think it's it's, you know, down uphill from here. Not downhill because it's a it's a good thing. Yeah. That's I agree. Size. Yeah.
[01:44:01] Unknown:
But, as a current game developer, I can only say creating games is super hard. So Bitcoin Bounty, and this is our first game. It's What a it's hell. Created a good game, though, dude. You created, like, a really solid, like, high development game.
[01:44:16] Unknown:
So I guess. To your speed. I don't know that I yeah. Props, man. I don't know that I I that. Personally, I'm not a game developer, but, talking to to game devs,
[01:44:26] Unknown:
you know, on a weekly basis and then talking to you and and Chris and so on, and it's just like I I know nothing of that world. Yeah. I am not a developer at all, and that seems like what you built is you did a fucking great job so far. So I'm very proud of you, and I I look forward to seeing the iterations over there. So I wanna jump into what the fuck Mincox is. But before I do that, I just wanna do a quick shill to all of our Twitch, viewers, because we've been trying to go hard in the paint on Twitch. These guys have, like, a bunch of Twitch channels. You can go to twitch.tv/donnerlab.
That's Bitcoin Bounty Hunts main twitch.tv. You can go to mint gox, twitch.tv/mint gox tv is, where they do mintgox. We're about to talk about mintgox. Then you can also do twitch.tv/ zebedee. Io. Yep. Subscribe to that. So if you're a Twitch subscriber here, subscribe to all of those. I'm trying to figure out Twitch. I think we can, like, rebroadcast each other. So, ideally, what I would like is for Citadel Dispatch's Twitch to just constantly have stats gaming going on. I think, like, that's, like, kind of the policy. So I plan to to republish you guys. I I I know that's a possibility. I don't know how that works.
[01:45:40] Unknown:
So if you start You can tell me. Show started, we already had 2 new advertisers. And if you go to our Twitch right now, you can you can now see all the advertisers that are in the game, which is a pretty cool new feature. Awesome. That's awesome. So now if if your image gets approved, you you directly see it in the game. So we got Bitcoin Bitcoin runners and, who was who as well? Flip at Bitcoin Magazine. These are 2 new advertisers we just got. I like Flip.
[01:46:13] Unknown:
And the other thing is we got Quinn Solo in the chat, quinsolo.com. He has reached out to me. He's a good friend. He wants to do giveaways on this show, for Bitcoin development, for free open source development. I'm not exactly sure how we're gonna do those giveaways yet. So I want the freaks to come into the Swinx chat. I want the freaks to reach out to me on DM and Keybase and in this chat right now and and and say how we should do those giveaways. We're gonna do them we're gonna start next week, and and let's do it in, like, a kosher way. Like, I don't wanna I'm not trying to buy engagement. I don't want retweets. I don't want likes. I don't want subscriptions, but I wanna do it in a way that rewards, the freaks that join us on Bitcoin Tuesdays live, with some cool merch because, what Quinsolo builds over there is is is really fucking dope.
With all that said, Mint Gox, what the fuck is Mint Gox?
[01:47:08] Unknown:
Alright. I'll take this one. So Mint Gox was a response to to COVID. So Zebedee, last year, we actually had our technology was ready. We got, games to show, and then we're basically, at the final stages of planning our conference roadshow where we, you know, we basically, go to this conference. We show the technology and and showing it in person and and seeing the reaction of people is is instant. Like, when they get it, they get it, and you see this light pop in their head and and they really get the idea of Bitcoin and games and so forth. And then and then everything got canceled. Right? So we we basically got to a point where we needed to to find other ways to show, to showcase what we can do, what what's possible. And so we we decided, alongside, a few other players, including Constantine and Donald Lab, and then, Jack Everett at Thunder Games who creates Bitcoin bound Bitcoin bounce and and turbo 84, and then, Desiree, Dickerson from Lightning Labs, and us at Zebedee. So we basically got together and and decided, you know, we need, to be able to to showcase these things. And so what if we created an event that was, a little bit more than just, you know, looking at people over hangouts and streaming games, but was a little bit more involved.
But it was geared specifically for gaming with Bitcoin. So Minkox became started in March of 2020, and now we're, we're a year end actually. That's that's insane. And, it's it's a it's a monthly event that happens on on the last Sunday of every month where we get together, audience members, game developers, participants, everyone, and and we do a bunch of esports tournaments. So we have an esports tournament for Bitcoin Bounty Hunt every time. We have, esports tournaments for CS GO tour, infuse CS GO matches. We have tournaments for Bitcoin rally, and and we're, you know, consistently adding more. We have tournaments for Bitcoin Balance and Turbo 84. And so as an audience member, you go to mintgox.com, and, you you land on this dashboard.
Right now, you would only see the agenda of the event, but on the day of the event, you you land on this dashboard where you see a stream in the middle, and then you have a bunch of tools around it, which are lightning enabled. So you can play games inside of the same stream. So you can play Sarutobi, which is a simple game similar to a a a flappy bird type game where you can get, you know, you're basically trying to get farther into the game and and and, you know, there's sats in that game and and coins. And you can play, there's a faucet game called sats stacker where it's basically a faucet where people can get involved, and I don't have any stats. No problem. Play stat stacker and get some stats.
And so what we wanna do is showcase what's what's possible with lightning, and we've been doing that every month. And recently, we we basically reached a point where all of the prizes that we're giving out total up to 10,000,000 satoshis. So we're talking about, like, point 1 of a Bitcoin. The the next mint gox that we have is this Sunday. So today's Tuesday. So next Sunday, 28th, I believe. And that's mint gox, 14. So we've done mintgox, you know, there's the general mintgox.com. We've done 2 or 3 mintgox geared to the Asian market because there's a large demand there too. And we hope to expand into the the South American market as there's quite a bit of of demand and and user base there as well. And we're always looking for new game developers. If you have a game that that is using Bitcoin in some way, shape, or form, please reach out. We're we're very friendly, and we want to to showcase, what what's possible.
So that's MintGox, and and we've been doing it for a while. I think it's a great way for, one one I was saying earlier, one of the big problems that game developers have is unless you're a a big studio that has, you know, budget to to do PR and and marketing, you're you're going against the the the the grain here because, like I said, there's, like, hundreds of games deployed, every day of every week and, that it's just completely saturated. But if you have Bitcoin in your game, you now have a dedicated spot where you can, not only test your game, get get testers, get feedback, and so forth. But if your game is ready in its in its at its peak, you know, let's actually host tournaments. Let's actually host users playing because the user base is here. There are plenty of people interested in this in this front and in these Bitcoin enabled games, but, you know, we we need we basically need more games. So that's what we're we're helping to do. So, I actually just, something that hasn't been announced, but, I I checked with with Mission Control, and I and then, basically, it's okay to talk about it.
We we are actually hosting, basically hosting a 2 day, hybrid event at Bitcoin 2021, where, it's a live there's gonna be a bunch of live things. There's gonna be a bunch of things that you can join remotely. There's tournaments for all the games that we talked about. And gonna be doing as fuck. Yeah. And without giving too much, we actually have a CS GO tournament where, companies can actually sign up for us. So, we aim to have, you know, this company versus this company, and we get 5 people aside, and then we have CS GO matches, whether it's it's local to to Miami in Bitcoin 2021 or remote because all of all of our systems have a lot of remote people is the plan. Exactly. Yeah. So so that's So I've been actually consulting on the on the Bitcoin Magazine side.
Oh, I know. I know you knew, so I yeah.
[01:52:33] Unknown:
I mean I mean, but the idea is right? Like, the idea is that we're we're the majority of people are gonna be coming in through remote. Right?
[01:52:39] Unknown:
Yeah. So we'll have, even even some of our, team members are gonna likely gonna be unable to to come, right, because of restrictions and so forth. So, we will make it entirely hybrid. So you can participate from home, and you can participate from the the event. And, you have the same chances of winning, and you have the same chances of, of of participating. So, you know, get if you have friends and you wanna participate in the in the, you know, tournaments and the games, you know, start prepping with some friends, and and we can possibly get some teams made. We're gonna announce a lot of these things in the coming weeks, but it's it's gonna be an awesome time, man. I'm I'm super excited.
[01:53:20] Unknown:
I mean, it should be the the largest, in person
[01:53:25] Unknown:
Bitcoin gaming and power. Esports. Yeah. That's the goal.
[01:53:28] Unknown:
Yeah. So if any company needs a good CS GO player, I'm free. I was
[01:53:34] Unknown:
one below global elite. I'm free What happened, Con? What happened? Why were you just only 1 below?
[01:53:41] Unknown:
Because, I don't know. I I was too old already. No. Probably not.
[01:53:48] Unknown:
Yeah. You you were 16. You're past the age. Yeah. Current age. Yeah. Past the prime age. It should be really excited. I I I'm really really pumped for it. There's lots of of prizes. If you like winning Bitcoin, you know, just just get involved. There's,
[01:54:01] Unknown:
plenty of Bitcoin to to be given out. So Are you both coming down for to Miami in Bitcoin 2020? I'm not sure yet. I have I have a lot of FOMO, but, I don't know how it is with regulations, travel, and such.
[01:54:16] Unknown:
Yeah. I'll be there I'll be there for 10 days. So I'm Yeah. Andre Andre has no regulations, to to use as an excuse. So, yeah, I I'll I'll be there for 7. So I'm I'm glad to hear that. It's gonna be it's gonna be a fucking good time. If you haven't bought your ticket, use code humble. They did rug pull me. You still get 15% off, which is more than any other public QR, public, promo code. But it used to be 21% off to the early freaks. But don't worry, it's trending to 0 in terms of Bitcoin. So if you do wait, you you might be able to get it cheaper if it doesn't sell out in the meantime. Yeah. So, I mean, I think this has been a great conversation in general.
I wanna I have 2 more topics that I wanna wanna hit before we end this. It seems like we don't have any, like, freaks. If you have any questions, hit us with questions. To the to the people listening via podcast, we love all of you. Fuck yes. Quin Solo wants you to know that he's up for some custom engraving for the freaks if that's the path you wanna go down. I'm I'm literally we're gonna have giveaways with Quincello to support free open source development, and I want the Freaks to decide how that goes. So I don't know if other shows do that, but this is how I wanna fucking do it. Quinn Solo seems like up. He's up for the task. He makes, like, my favorite flask. My favorite flask has the tales from the Crip logo on it. It says Matt O'Dell. It's from Quinn Solo. It's the fucking best flask ever. Everyone's like, you're so conceited. I'm like, I'm not conceited. He sent it to me. I'm just trying to I'm I'm I'm trying to rep what the freak sent me.
But, it it it's he he has dope products. So don't be shy. Tell us, you know, what what what do you think we should go with that.
[01:56:08] Unknown:
We we may we may need to to partner with them. We're we're getting swagged for conference now. We may need to talk to them. Yeah. Let's do that. Quincell is fucking dope. You should you should partner with them. I want our logo on a coaster. That would be pretty
[01:56:20] Unknown:
sick. Yeah. You heard that, Quinn? He's here. He heard that. He'll make it happen. Reach out to them.
[01:56:26] Unknown:
I will. Yeah.
[01:56:29] Unknown:
I was actually telling Quinn to reach out to you. Stay humble, Matt. And I appreciate that, Quinn. Quinn Quinn told me to stay humble to all the podcast people. So so the 2 things I wanted to talk about was, first of all, it looks like people have dropped off a little bit, here on the live on the live element. They're getting a little upset that we're not talking about the most important Bitcoin fundamental. So we're gonna have to save that for all the freaks that have have been here till, you know, the ride or die freaks. Both of you, I wanna hear, we'll start with Khan.
Do you believe that Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
[01:57:13] Unknown:
Yeah. I think so. I mean, I only I don't know. Yeah. It'll pump forever. We will make sure of it of it. I'm not a supporter. Contrary to to Andre, I'm not a supporter of stock to flow, but it will it will go up forever. I'm in for the long run. Our players are in for the long run. The Minsk's prize pools will be the biggest prize pools in esports history. So Yes. A 100%. We we made millionaires. Right? So
[01:57:46] Unknown:
Yeah. It's gonna in in in hindsight, people are gonna look back there and be like, oh my god. I can't believe I didn't fucking participate in that. It was so good.
[01:57:55] Unknown:
Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. We had we had a, I was saying we had a 15, 16 year old or something like that that, he he even asked his his dad permission. And he was like, can I play on this thing? Is this for real? And he won, you know, 600,000 sats, and it's, like, insane because in 2 years, 3 years' time, he's gonna look back and be like, what were you doing this day in 2021? He's like, I was just making millions playing 15 minutes of CS GO, You know? So I I fully support that that notion that
[01:58:26] Unknown:
yeah. Fucking legend, Niamh. Legend there.
[01:58:30] Unknown:
Fucking legend. I love it. So so, Andre, do you agree you're agreeing that it's designed to pump forever?
[01:58:37] Unknown:
Yes. To a certain extent. Mostly and and the extent is, the the the base of money. Like, how much money is there
[01:58:47] Unknown:
in in the world? Okay. So so, Andre, so the question is when fiat dies, so obviously okay. When we enter a hyperinflation, like, obviously, Bitcoin's gonna continue to pump in terms of shitty money. But then after that money dies and and Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency and everything is priced in Sats, does not does the purchasing power of your Sats not increase forever?
[01:59:13] Unknown:
Does the purchasing power of my Sats in a world where Bitcoin is the sole, you know, global currency reserve, whatever you wanna call it, given its finite nature, I I would agree because the economy will grow. There's always more, you know, quote unquote. There's always more people in part of the economy. So there's more purchasing power. So, yes. In in short, if if that is the future you're you're talking about, yes, it will ultimately future we expect. Right?
[01:59:38] Unknown:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. I so I support I support that notion. It's important for you both to realize that, like, all 24 guests that came before you guys have had to answer this question as well. This is an important aspect. I I'm I'm Matt O'Dell providing a technical podcast technical focus podcast that that also asks this question every single episode, which I think is a nice mix. So and then my second question is is way more difficult question and is, very specific to gaming, and it would behoove me to to not mention this.
Gaming addiction. Where do we fall in gaming addiction? We I feel like we need to talk about this. Like, we can't be talking about people fucking killing each other in games for sats, playing Mario Kart for sats. I know I pronounced it poorly without talking about gaming addiction. Where do you guys stand on this, like, what what are we supposed to do? There
[02:00:36] Unknown:
And they are addicted without sats. Maybe they will be with with sats. I think it's fix the money, fix the world kind of problem maybe. So if we have SUDs in game, maybe monetization will be fixed. I don't know. So I see it as a issue that is not not linked to having sats in the game. However, I personally see that sats in the game ups the toxicity of of gaming by a lot. I don't know what you see, Andre, but I don't see addiction as a as a problem to with combined with SUDs, but I see toxicity as a big problem when you have money on the on the line.
[02:01:19] Unknown:
Yeah. I my view is very similar. I think it it goes hand in hand with a lot of Bitcoin critics that try to say, you know, oh, Bitcoin doesn't solve x. And it's like but it it never really had to or wanted to solve x. It solves y and z, but it like, why is the the technology meant to solve every societal problem all of a sudden? Right? The incumbents didn't solve all the problems, so why why is Bitcoin expected to solve every single problem? But I think it solves one of the core problems, which, you know, trickles down into solving other problems. We were saying fix the money, fix fix the world. But, I I don't know that it'll make addiction, you know, quote unquote easier in the sense of gaming because, you know, now there's money, so people are gonna stick around. I think, Constantine nailed it. Like, there's addiction in gaming right now, and and I think there will be in when stats are involved, I think, it's it the stakes may be higher. So what you may end up seeing is is, you know, a basically, there's there's more at stake when, you're quote unquote an an a game addict and and you lose sats rather than just losing a match.
So I'm sure there's gonna be problems just like just like there is right now. But I don't know that that Sats are the the reason why it'll, you know, dramatically improve or, completely ruin that that whole scenario, and everyone is now suddenly in a game attic. I I don't know that it plays that much of a of a part, at least initially. I think once everything is is monetized and there's sats everywhere, you know, I possibly, who knows? I don't know that it's injecting infusing sats does not make, you know, gamer an addict, in my opinion, at least.
[02:02:58] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, I I will defend both of you as well, because I wouldn't ask the question otherwise. I mean but, otherwise, me answering the question. I I mean, I think game game addiction exists already, and they just automatically lose money, so at least they can win money. And then for gamblers, like, those gamblers already exist. They might move over to to video game based gambling or something, but they're already gambling on other things. Like, it's not like some like, when someone who's a gambling, like, who's addicted to gambling is going to to, realize it because your game offers it. They're already addicted to gambling. They're already
[02:03:39] Unknown:
Agreed.
[02:03:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. A 100%. I don't think I I think it changes game dynamics, incentives, and all the things. I don't think it's the sole reason why things will change drastically when it comes to gaming addiction. But it is important
[02:03:52] Unknown:
from a publisher, you know, developer point of view, right, that that you should if you if we wanna talk about ethical development, right, like, you should, in a way, incorporate that into the structure of whatever games you're producing. Right? Is that is that you should be trying to provide some kind of education, like, please don't.
[02:04:13] Unknown:
If you're talking about ethical, dilemma, then, like, why don't they care about the ethics of only receiving value into the game? Like, they don't care about the players. Game developers don't care about the players right now, especially for the large large game studios. So if we're talking about That's what I'm saying. Right, Andre? Yeah. It's like, there's like a dark there's a dark undertone in gaming
[02:04:31] Unknown:
that it's very much attention focused. Right? And it's this idea that you want to you want to gather as much attention as possible from your user base. So you're literally trying to get them addicted to your game. That that that is currently, that is the model. The the current model is I want you playing all the fucking time. Yep.
[02:04:52] Unknown:
Without without getting anything out of this other than, you know, quote unquote entertainment. Right? Let's call that entertainment, if you will, but it's it's a little more dark dark than that. But if I I agree. But if there's something in return, I think it changes a little bit. And and if we're talking about ethics, you know, a 100% agree with you that, that there is this expectation. Like, let me create the game that has the perfect structure so that I create the incentive so that people play it all the time. And and it's not too too dissimilar to the the Bitcoin, network structure where, you know, it's the incentive structures are aligned such that everyone plays their part and and they're drastically penalized if they go out of the, you know, the constraints or the consensus or whatever, and you get forked off and and and, you know, lose their coins or something. So I hope we don't we don't get to that, but I I think Right. Adding stats to games, you know, it it it again, it changes dynamics.
[02:05:50] Unknown:
But I don't know that it it will change the view of, you know, we want you to play all the time. I think they will still have that, but you'll possibly get some value out of it. Right? It's like the Bitcoin energy argument. Right? It's like all of a sudden, like, you just wanna you wanna you wanna say, like, Bitcoin can't use the energy, but you never fucking got mad at any of the other fucking energy usage. And it's like so you you wanna say you wanna say that that sats in a game is gonna make you more addicted. But meanwhile, everyone who's making a TV series or making a modern video game or making any kind of attention. They're they're all trying to drive your attention into whatever they're doing. Right?
[02:06:31] Unknown:
And and to to to pull off a a comment here, it says, Quin Solis, it's sat inside an RPG. Totally changes it for me. I'm incentivized to show up and actually complete the tasks, not just murder hobo murder hobo for funds. I think it's totally true. Right? Like, if if all of a sudden the money that you have in your wallet, like, in real life is the same money that you have in the game, like, wouldn't you care so much more about your character? Wouldn't you think twice about, like, going on a random expedition or or like a guild with your friends to, like, and and beat this boss. Because if you lose, you actually lose fat. So you you basically care a lot more. Whether that leads to addiction or not is a different matter, but, I think, like, it it'll start it's what I was saying earlier. It'll stop being so okay to die on a CSO match because, you know, I just respawn and that's fine. Right. And it'll be it'll be like there's actually things on the line here. If I if I don't play correctly, if I don't make my moves correctly, I I get penalized here. I mean, I specifically with gaming, the most important thing is, like, the status quo is, like, it's completely cool for you to lose a shit ton on money gaming.
[02:07:29] Unknown:
But, like, there's no way for you to make any
[02:07:32] Unknown:
money. Yeah. Exactly. Agreed. Agreed.
[02:07:38] Unknown:
Totally agree. Based on con yeah. Based on con's, fucking song. He a 100% agrees. So, I mean, I think this was a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. I think this conversation is gonna age fucking beautifully. I think I think people are gonna look back on this shit, like, our grandkids are gonna look back on this shit. They're gonna be like, oh my god. Like, they were talking about things that were so fucking obvious. You know, it's like it's gonna be like those videos where they're like, oh, they're talking about Amazon in 97, and they're like, oh, Bitcoin. They're Bitcoin. Yeah. They're, oh, oh, book bookstore. They're gonna be a bookstore online, all this shit. Right. And that's what this conversation is gonna be like, so I really appreciate you both joining us.
I think people aren't really they they don't really understand, like, this is this is the the the you are gonna be completely they're just gonna they're gonna be onboarded to Sats, and it's gonna be the most natural fucking thing ever. Like, they're not even gonna think twice about it. Like, it's just gonna be, you know, they love playing games, they're gonna play games, They're gonna wager SATs on those games. They're gonna win SATs. They're gonna lose SATs, and SATs are just gonna quickly become the standard to them before they even have a bank account. They're not gonna have a bank account. They're not gonna be spending money. They're not gonna be taking care of their wife and their kids and shit.
They're not gonna have a job. They're gonna be fucking earning and losing sats before all of that, and that's just in their head is gonna become the unit of account. Like, this it unfathomable.
[02:09:12] Unknown:
If I totally. And if I can just add some some anecdotes here. I think, with with the release of the of the bots that we did, they got added to some some gaming, Discords that that I've seen, and, I think it's it's it's in I don't know how else to explain it. It's so clear when, you know, you see these teens and and gamers. I don't even know if they're teens they're Discord users, but you see these gamers. They don't actually really know what sats are, but they know they want them and they know that they they want they can get them somehow here and there and playing games and so forth. And and because they already see, the value in, like, your jewels and your diamonds and your singhs and your v bucks and like, they understand the notion of unit of accounts.
With the bot, you were, like, you know, z send a 100. Right? And a 100 sats to us is like, oh, 100 sats. You know, it's fine. Whatever. It's it's it's a it's a tiny tiny 0¢ amount. To them, whenever we send, you know, 200 sats, it's a gigantic amount because it's 200. So to them, the the SATs to a lot of people that we're seeing is, like, it already is the cumulative account. It's just like, oh my god. You sent me 2,000 SAPs? This is amazing. So for for us, we re like at Zebedee, we really believe that the first, you know, economic interactions that people have, are actually in games. It just happens to be with money that is siloed inside of, you know, the game economy that doesn't do anything else. But I think the first economic interactions that people have in in a real value transfer is through games. Now imagine if that money was actually the money power in the world. Right? And and that's what we wanna see the future of. So, I'm very I'm very hopeful. Of course, I'm biased. I'm running a company on the on this industry, but, I I think Biased as fuck, bro. Yeah.
I think it's clear. It's what you were saying, like, the 9090 9 whatever, Amazon video. I think for us, it's clear. And I think once people, you know, wake up and realize it, it it will already be the reality. It will already be in a bunch of games, and it will already be omnipresent and and and, you know, around everywhere. And I think we're gonna see that in the next 5 years. Bitcoin is just gonna be virtually everywhere. Like, I'm a big believer that the the the velocity of the Bitcoin, quote unquote, revolution is even faster than the Internet revolution because I think, the the Bitcoin revolution is enabled by the Internet revolution, which basically allows, you know, instantaneous information transfer around the world where whereas when the Internet came about, that wasn't the case. Right? So I think Bitcoin's velocity is much higher. I think in 5 years' time, we're we're gonna be looking back at at this interview like you're saying and saying, oh my god, these guys were visionaries. But really to us, it's it's very clear. I think it's it's a very clear proposition here.
[02:11:56] Unknown:
Totally agree. However, I think, lie like like you said, gaming and lightning is like this match made in heaven, and it was very hyped in the beginning of lightning. And now it's I think it went down a little bit, but I think as soon as there's this one gaming use case for lightning, which will blow everything up, I think it's coming soon. Priced in, bro. It's not priced in exactly. It's like the next halving. Right?
[02:12:24] Unknown:
People have no idea. Like, all the other cycles were were just shitcoiners trying to make shitcoins for gaming. You know? Yep. And they were all trying to create all their different shitcoin bullshits. And then this cycle is different. This cycle, we have real we have you guys, you know, we have we have Thunder Games involved. Like, we we have all all these different people that are that are working towards actually putting Sats in the games, and I think, like, people are just not really appreciating it. Right. I I I just wanted to thank both of you for joining us, and, I mean, I I think it's it's about time to wrap this up, but I I just want to, like everything you guys are working towards is just I've I've fully wholeheartedly support it. I'm very excited about it. I'm excited to take stats for my future children and my future grandkids. I my future grandkids will probably take stats for me when we game, but I will absolutely destroy my children when we game.
Do you have any final comments for the freaks before we leave?
[02:13:30] Unknown:
Yeah. I I start. Thanks for having us, and thanks for always increasing. Or I don't know if it's you, but you some someone always increases, your sponsorship in our game, so thank you for that. And, yeah, I'm I'm very hyped to be part of this lightning gaming revolution alongside Andre, Zebedee, Thunder Games, Satoshi's Games. Yeah. I'm very excited for the future and what's to come.
[02:13:57] Unknown:
Yeah. For for my side, you know, definitely thanks for for having us, and and I think gaming and lightning is is a very bright future that we have. But, specifically, Matt, I think, you know, thanks for for asking the hard questions. I think someone has to. And, if people aren't pressured and aren't challenged, you know, we we never move forward. You said it yourself earlier is that the challenges are the innovators. So there are gonna be challenges ahead. There are gonna be, you know, battles and wars, but we we will thrive as Bitcoin always has. And, we're gonna come come, come out as winners at the end of, of the tunnel. So, again, like, thanks for for for having us here. But, in general, thanks for for being caps lock Odell and, asking the questions that people want asked.
[02:14:40] Unknown:
Fuck. Yes. I've been feeling a little bit lowercase lately, but that just kinda confused me if I if I if I could partake in a pun. I just wanted to thank all the freaks for joining us live. You freaks make Bitcoin Tuesdays what it is, and I also wanna thank the freaks that are joining us after the fact. Youfreaks also make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is in a different way. I want you guys to both follow these guys. We have at AndreNeves, a n d r e n e v e s, on Twitter. We have at sputnicksputnoneckon Twitter. I see. Both those things are in show notes.
I love all you freaks. Just, you know, don't let the no corners, like, fuck around with you on this tiny little dip. Right? Like, everyone who I'm trying to convince to fucking stack are all, like, oh, we're going down to 40. I'm just, like, just stack. Just fucking keep stacking. I'm just telling you guys to stack. Just fucking do it. Next week, I don't know who we're gonna have yet, so I'm not gonna tease who we're gonna have yet. But I'm I'm pretty excited for it just in general. I I really do there's, like, a lot of in fighting on Twitter right now. I just you know, I I wish the friendly fire was a little bit reduced. I agree with 99% of every single BitCorner on Twitter, like, real BitCorner, not ChickCorner, on Twitter. So I I wish that was a little bit reduced, but I I'm also a little bit guilty of that. So I do take responsibility there.
I hope to see you all at Bitcoin 2021. We will have, RHR on Thursday as is tradition. Marty will never commit to a specific time, unlike the dispatch, but we're aiming for 3:30 EST. UTC, that should be oh my god. I'm gonna fuck this up. What is, 1930? 1930? 18:30 UTC, I think. Just fucking did that off the top of my head. And so join us for that, and then join us back on Tuesday for 21 100 UTC, for the next Citadel Dispatch. Let's fucking go. Stay humble, Stack Sats. I love you all. Thank you to Andre. Thank you to Khan. You guys are fucking killing it. Let's fucking just do this shit. Cheers.
[02:17:04] Unknown:
Cheers. Thanks, Matt. Cheers.
[02:20:37] Unknown:
Oh, freaks. I love you. We're the only ones left. We're gonna fucking run this shit. I'm looking forward to doing it along along all of you, and I'll see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. And I'll see you next Tuesday for sizzle dispatch 15. If you want to provide suggestions on who the next guest should be, come into our Sphinx tribe and let us know, specifically this little dispatch, Sphinx tribe, and, let's have fun with it. Stay humble. Stack stats.
Difference between cash and CBDC
Bitcoin Tuesday and Citadel Dispatch
Lightning and its interaction with the video game world
Esports and its growth
The future of gaming with stats
Bitcoin Bounty Hunt and its ad model
The impact of in-game ads
Money matches in gaming
Challenges of 2-player fighting games
The value of Bitcoin as a network
Dealing with hackers in online gaming
Custodial vs non-custodial lightning wallets
The trade-offs of custodial lightning wallets
The future of lightning wallets and streaming sats
The challenges of being noncustodial
The inevitability of conflict in the space
New features in Infuse
Importance of answering a specific question in every episode
Discussion on gaming addiction
Ethical development in gaming
