Citadel Dispatch

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Phil Geiger is a good friend and VP of Marketing at Unchained. We discussed the current bitcoin landscape, the importance of self custody and their self custody IRA product, the tradeoffs of KYC, their new Donor Advised Fund product, and Nostr.

Phil on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/npub1jvzgkrej3gpplqut2xfncg25qr7wmt3jlmyk3u7nxtcp4qj50tgsh96c2w

Learn more about Unchained: https://unchained.com/

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(00:00:00) Congressional Rep Tom Emmer on the Importance of Decentralization

(00:01:55) Welcome and Guest Introduction

(00:04:22) Bitcoin's Growing Influence in Politics

(00:12:15) Unchained Capital's Approach to Bitcoin Custody

(00:19:20) The Role of KYC in Bitcoin Financial Services

(00:28:03) Bitcoin IRAs and Financial Security

(00:39:33) Donor Advised Funds and Charitable Giving

(00:52:02) Nostr and Social Media Dynamics

[00:00:00] Tom Emmer:

But here's   the biggest piece of that that applies to not just Bitcoin, but everyone in the digital,   government is like, a legalized   form of the mob.   Right? In order for you to be safe and secure, you gotta pay the VIG. In order for you to do the things you want in this country, you gotta pay the Vig. Taxes. Whatever that might be.   They are scared to death. And this is where, the Elizabeth   Warren attitude comes from.   Of decentralization.   Because you know what it changes?   It restores what this country was built on, which is by the people   from the ground up.  

Not from political nightmares like, the senator from Massachusetts who he'll not now not be named that,   literally wants the top down.   That's not what this country is based on. That's not our value.   We need to make sure that we open this up,   permitting reform,   bureaucratic reforms. You're gonna have to reduce some of these agencies, and you're gonna have to bring,   the financial,   legislation that's on the books. You're gonna have to bring it into the 21st century.   Why do we keep trying to shoehorn this new thing into something that we, wrote starting in the thirties?   This is a new world. We gotta get, caught up and we gotta get into the 21st century.  



[00:01:56] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   I've taken about a 2 week break   from live dispatches.   If you've been listening on the podcast feed, obviously, Citadel Dispatch in your favorite podcast app. I did post a bunch of great conversations that were had in person in front of a live audience   in Riga, Latvia,   both from Nostriga, which was the Nastr event,   and Baltic Honey Badger, which is the longest running   Bitcoin only conference in the world.  

I encourage you all to go listen to those conversations.   They were a lot of fun to take part in, and, I think they were quite valuable.   With all that said,   I have good friend Phil Geiger   here from Unchained Capital.   How's it going, Phil?  

[00:02:53] Phil Geiger:

It's going great, Matt. Thanks for allowing a blue check to, come on to this Citadel dispatch.  

[00:02:59] ODELL:

Yeah. Exceptions are made sometimes. Not everyone's perfect.   I will say that it's been a long time coming. I can't believe we've we've never done a podcast together.  

[00:03:08] Phil Geiger:

I know. It's been it's been a few years since we we first met. I'm trying to remember exactly when that was. We've done a rabbit hole recap together. Right? Uh-uh. So I've been on TFTC   once,   but I never ended up bombing one of your rabbit hole recap episodes, which I had, I had some ideas to do that, but never got around to actually showing up. That's pretty funny because I feel like you'd be an ideal candidate for one of our infamous party reps.   We're gonna have to make that happen in the future. Yeah. Well, send me a message. I'd love to to join rabbit hole recap. Send me a message. Send me write me a telegram. I don't know. Do you fax?   Do I You still fax?  



[00:03:48] ODELL:

I I have you on signal. I'll send you a signal message. Alright. Sounds good.   Phil, so we have a bunch of things to talk about.   I think, 1st and foremost,   shout out to   the few freaks that are joining us, in the live chat, the Nostra powered live chat. That's still dispatch.com   slash stream. You do not need a Nostra account   to join us there.   We also have a few freaks I see in the YouTube chat.   Feel free to come join us over   in in in the ride or die one.   I mean, I I think an interesting place to start is,   the world is pretty crazy right now.   Bitcoin is,   quickly becoming this macro asset. I mean, I had,   the the intro today was representative Tom Emmer,   congressman from Minnesota.  

He's the house majority whip, so he's quite influential   influential congressman,   talking about the virtues of decentralization   and   and Bitcoin.   And it's to me, it's still kind of unreal that   people like that are mentioning Bitcoin by name, let alone,   you know, kind of recommending it and saying that it's part of the American   it it brings us back to the core American values.   But, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what, like, what are you thinking about Bitcoin today? Like, what are you most excited about? What are you concerned about? What are your thoughts there? When I first got into Bitcoin,  

[00:05:20] Phil Geiger:

I I found out about it. I was kind of on Reddit, r Bitcoin, and   people used to go nuts. The price would pump, you know, double digit percentages   whenever a mainstream media,   organization wrote about Bitcoin. Like, if there was an article published in CNBC,   the price would pump, you know, $20, which at the time was, a significant   lift. And now to your point, you know, we have major   political candidates, presidential candidates discussing Bitcoin. It's on the agenda. Right?   And   these these politicians and influential individuals   are coming to Bitcoin events.  

Bitcoiners are not necessarily   going to their events. I know some of them are, but they're make but but like the representatives are making it a point to show up to Bitcoin events because they recognize how important,   the Bitcoin   vote is and how kind of influential and wealthy the Bitcoin community is getting.  

[00:06:19] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I would go as far as saying that   it's probably one of the strongest new industries in America,   so it's pretty hard to ignore.   I think the smart ones realize that they should do more than just not ignore it, they should try and embrace it,   but it's been pretty unreal to watch to the point where, like,   you know, I'm,   first of all, freaks, by the way, welcome to my Airbnb closet. I forgot to mention that. I am on a road trip with family, but the show must go on. We got Matt Mallers Matt Mallers over here. Yeah. Not not quite as nice as as Jack's closet.  

[00:06:59] Phil Geiger:

It's a kind   of eternal   internal market right now. So maybe once we break out, you can upgrade your closet.  

[00:07:06] ODELL:

I see winsome hacks asking if there's a fire Fire TV app for ZapStream.   No. What what you can do in the meantime, and this is why I still stream to YouTube, is   just you slap it on your TV with the YouTube app, you know, you do, like, Chromecast or whatever,   and then you just chill in the live chat.   So use use your computer or your or your phone for the live chat, and I know it's a little bit hacky.   Yeah. I'm in the closet. No. I what I was gonna say is, like,   as a as someone who's been in the Bitcoin ecosystem for a long time, like, I am very much a man of of cycles,   and it's it's always super interesting in the Bitcoin industry because we go up and down   together.  

You know? It's like this   amazing and horrible drug where it's like we're poor together and we're rich together and then we're poor together and then we're poor together and then we're poor together and then we're rich together.   But   and it's   this cycle is just I'm I'm not gonna be the guy who's like, this time is different.   I I I think there will be,   another bear market, and there'll be many bear markets.   And I think there'll be, you know,   probably another 80% drawdown at some point.   So it's it's not different in that regard. But   the fact that we have, like, the Larry Finks of the world, the Black Rocks of the world, presidential candidates, governors,   that is becoming this macro asset.  

The cycle should be   a little bit different because we're, like, tied to it's, like, almost like a thermometer of the global economy and, like, global attitudes.   So it should be interesting   to look back on this, you know, 4 years down the line. I mean, even just like a simple, like, the having cycle thing. Like, we've never   we've never had an all time high   before the having happens.   Usually, it takes like a year or something like that,   and the ETFs kinda change that. So  

[00:09:14] Phil Geiger:

I've I find that I find that quite fascinating. Well, I don't know about you, Matt, but I feel like I've been,   definitely punished for celebrating an all time high before having with, this, like, 6 month stagnant,   bull crab market,   between, like, what, 65 k and 55 k.   I'm ready for us to just, like, either dump or rip. It's weird. Right? Yeah.  

[00:09:40] ODELL:

Like, I it's hard to, like, for all the the   the new corners out there, like, it's hard for us to explain that it's   and I'm seeing a lot of, like I see, like, a lot of fatigue among the rider dies because we you just don't you don't expect the the crab  

[00:09:56] Phil Geiger:

is just weird. Well, it's so funny because, you know, Bitcoin   historically has gotten so much crap for being super volatile,   but then when it's   when it's relatively stable,   there's almost a doldrums. So I don't know if you're if you you're into sailing or whatever, but the doldrums is this term where you're like out floating in the middle of the ocean and the wind just dies, and you then you start going stir crazy, start getting a cabin fever.   And I definitely see it in the Bitcoin space. Like, people start losing it after a while if it if the price is, like, too quiet   or,   it just, yeah, it doesn't kind of move anywhere for an extended period of time.  

But I've definitely been through a few of these,   periods over   the last, you know, 10 years when I've since I've been into Bitcoin. And, it's always it always surprises me whatever happens next. Like, it might be a massive crash, it might be a massive bump, but I'm always just totally caught off guard every time. Yeah. Yeah. The volatility is coming. Yeah.  

[00:10:55] ODELL:

Who knows which way it goes? Probably up,   but just stay on one stack sets. No one known as a crystal ball here, but the we know for a fact   that it won't keep crabbing. Like, they'll they're  

[00:11:07] Phil Geiger:

gonna go sharp in one direction or the other. Yeah. People are always like, Phil, what do you think? Is it gonna pump? Is it gonna rip? And I think I've for for the entire time that I've been in Bitcoin, I have been wrong about any of my short term calls, but I've been so right about the long term trajectory.   And so that's that's what I'm sticking with. No price targets, no whatever. Like, yeah, we're gonna go to a 100 k. I don't know exactly when. Could be now, could be Eventually. Yeah. Exactly. I'm I'm confident that we will pass that number, but I just have absolutely no idea when it's gonna happen. Yeah. I mean, people think, like, I came up with, like, stay humble stack sets. Like, I just woke up in one morning and I was just, like, stay humble stack sets. Like, we should stay on no. It's, like, I just got all short term  

[00:11:48] ODELL:

in early days, like, I just was short term wrong every fucking time.   Every time. That's fucking ridiculous.   And long term, it's a it's a it's a long term game, and with adoption, purchasing power should increase.   Okay. Enough. That was   borderline price talk. I think it was more group therapy. I just enjoy having conversations with Phil. I feel better already, Matt. Don't you feel a little bit better? Yeah. I feel much more relaxed.   So Unchained,   we we started it off with with representative Emer talking about, like, the power of decentralization,   empowering individuals, and and and and that this technology enables new things.  

I mean, Unchained at its core is a is a financial services company that has built itself   basically forward looking towards a Bitcoin standard.   Do you wanna talk a little bit about how you guys think about   self custody and collaborative custody and   and sticking to the core principles of Bitcoin?  

[00:12:50] Phil Geiger:

Well, I think what we looked at when we first got started was the   inherent urge to centralize, right, across really just it's like human human nature almost to start centralizing over time. And even, you know, the the the company was launched in 2016, and the first product was released in 2017. And the product that we're probably most well known for right now is Vaults,   which is, you know, Bitcoin secured and multi signature with keys distributed.   But even back then, we were looking at the major custodians, and we're like, wow. They're starting to accumulate   a lot of Bitcoin. And what's really surprising to me is that instead of,   Bitcoin kind of   distributing and decentralizing,   that that problem still exists. Like, even in the the ETFs and and this new world,   Coinbase now is just such a massive single point of failure.  

But what's really amazing about Bitcoin is that no single company   ever needs to be a single point of failure because   Bitcoin comes with tools like multisig   baked into the protocol.   You can set up Bitcoin addresses that are not controlled by a single person or company or entity,   and then you can build all kinds of different products and services on top of multisig. So really that's kind of the fundamental,   custody model of Unchained is that everything that we do is built on top of multisig.   And then we're a financial services company. So if you're treating Bitcoin as your long term,   wealth, we have hopefully all the products and services that you might need to be able to save in Bitcoin for the long term, but then access the sorts of financial services that you might need.  

All of this is built on multisig.  

[00:14:35] ODELL:

Yeah. So I mean, let's just unpack the Vault product real quick.   What is it like, why should people care?  

[00:14:44] Phil Geiger:

Sure. So the Vaults,   are 2 of 3 multisig   where clients can control 2 of the keys   and unchained holds a 3rd key. So I like to think of it as the best of both worlds in terms of pure DIY self custody as well as working with a custodian.   When you're doing full DIY self custody,   you alone are a single point of failure for your Bitcoin. Right? Especially if you're using single signature, you make one mistake and you've lost funds. What's nice about multi signature is because multiple keys are involved,   you can actually make a mistake with one of the keys or compromise one of your seed phrases and no Bitcoin is at risk. And then on top of that, when you start including   a third party such as Unchained   as a key agent, as holding one of your keys,   then you can start getting really interesting benefits like   customer support. Right? You can call us, we can help walk you through different, you know, bitcoin,   activities, withdrawals, UTXO consolidations, and so on. And then also we can, you know, build those those financial services   on top of that, but at no point in time is Unchained alone able to lose your Bitcoin. Right? So we're always just a partner there to be able to assist you, but you have full self control. Now just like with everything in Bitcoin and and what I found out after learning more about Bitcoin, pretty much everything in life, there are trade offs to that. Right? So you are working with a third party who is gonna know your transaction,   details.  

And in order to access financial services, we have to be a, you know, act like a financial services company and collect k y c a m l information. So there is that trade off, but,   there we like to think that there's a lot of value   added to all the different services that we have on the platform where it makes that trade off for some of your Bitcoin worth it.  

[00:16:35] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean   so at its core, it's the the Vault product is is 2 of 3.   So you need 2 keys to spend the money out of 3 keys, and if you lose one key, you're good.   2 of the keys are held by the client, one of the keys is held by Unchained,   and Unchained holds your hand through the process and helps guide you through the process,   especially for for for new coiners or   even some of the more   the peep a lot of people that have been in the space for a long time still rely on custodians, unfortunately,   because they're too scared of taking personal responsibility, and this is a a nice   almost half step into that process.  

The biggest trade off, as you said, is privacy. Unchained knows your transaction history, knows your identity. They could be pressured by governments.   I think this would be a good moment for me to mention that my venture fund, 1031,   is one of the largest investors in Unchained.   There's my disclosure.   But we're proudly so.   I would say that Unchained's model is one of those interesting things   where it's very low time preference, like Bitcoin.   A lot of people were like, oh, BlockFi is the sexy   sexy company in the room getting massive valuations.   Oh, FTX is the sexy company in the room getting massive valuations.  

And unchained customers   didn't have to worry about   loss of funds, didn't have to worry about rehypothecation   if they were using either the loan product or the custodial product,   the the custody product, not custodial because it's not custodial.   And,   I I think, like, the model has it basically starts to prove itself through disasters. I mean, we see someone,   we see someone, John Delaney, in the comments mentioning Coinbase is a massive central point of failure.   I think people will learn as these issues   happen, as people get burned, as people lose money.   I see Kieran commenting that KYC is an instant no for me. I think that's completely reasonable. It is an instant no for me as well, which is why I don't use it personally.  

I will say that there's some people that   basically do, like, a balancing act,   where maybe half of their funds or 3 quarters of their funds are in Unchained.   And then if there's a situation where Unchained gets pressured and and that information gets   leaked, gets shared with the government or something like that, and there's, like, some kind of 61 or 2 attack or   or we have president Harris and she tries to institute unrealized capital gains or something like that, you also have your stack that is complete personal responsibility,   you know, no third parties involved,   and that's, like, your sopranos,   like, duffel bag in the wall or whatever.  

Like, people do do that. It's not necessarily an either or.   Right.  

[00:19:21] Phil Geiger:

And and I think, you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna come on to your show, Matt, and then make the argument that there are some benefits of us being,   KYC,   and I think that the benefits are things that, a lot of Bitcoiners   maybe don't consider, but there are tons and tons of tools in the legacy financial,   industry   to be able to kind of protect your wealth through generations.   Right? So even even legal entities like trusts,   a lot of the ultra high net worth individuals that wanna remain private, they'll move a lot of their wealth into these trust structures.   And,   Unchained, you can onboard your trust. Right? So we we go through the whole KYC AML process for your trust, and then your trust can access   all kinds of financial services,   buying and selling Bitcoin,   inheritance,   Bitcoin collateralized lending,   the new new,   product that we just kind of announced, donor advised funds, all kinds of   different financial services   that the legacy financial kind of elite are accustomed to.  

And that's really what we're trying to build. We're trying to build a financial services platform for somebody who really seriously believes that Bitcoin is their long term   store of value and and long term wealth. So we really want to go after all of those different tools that, the legacy financial system and the and the wealthy folks from the legacy financial system use.   Now I'm not trying to convince you, of course, if you're happy with your no KYC coins to keep them no KYC,   but if you want the legal protections   of,   trust accounts, for example, then this is just a perfect use case where you you have to go through this KYC process. Another use case is is the the retirement,   accounts. So we have IRAs.  

A lot of people find Bitcoin   later in life, and they've been saving in their retirement accounts for years years years years. And in a lot of cases,   most of their wealth is locked up in US retirement accounts.   With   Bitcoin IRAs,   through Unchained Roth or traditional IRAs, you can now upgrade all of those   or some of those funds that are in the retirement accounts directly into Bitcoin where you control your keys. Is it KYC? Yes. But that's by default. In order for it to be a retirement account, it has to be KYC.   So now you can just kind of use those tools,   to your own gain.  



[00:21:46] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, if we're gonna talk business on air,   like, what I would like to see from Unchained is, like, having levels to it. It's kinda like you go in through the door and you just need, like, full k y c.   It would it would be ideal if there were, you know, like, graduated different levels depending on what product, and maybe that's something in the future. I will say, like, as someone who,   you know, financially   financially supports a lot of Bitcoin startups, I try and take   I I give advice, but, ultimately, founders can choose how they wanna run their businesses.   I I I think it's important to support people, but it's also important to to let them build out their own future.  

But, like, things that people should keep in mind is, like, yeah. First of all, as Phil said, you guys are heavily interacting with the financial system and a lot of the products.   By default, you know, that's the expected reality and the regulatory   situation.   But there's other things to keep in mind too, which is if you have a cosigner,   which is unchanged. Right? They're holding one of your keys. They're if you lose a key, they have to sign for you. Right? And in that situation, they need to know your identity   in order to make sure that you aren't compromised or you aren't in a situation. That's part of the   the the main trade off model. And as we're starting to see, like, AI and all these deep fakes and all this different crazy shit, Like, you guys are gonna have your hands full   with that threat model and that situations and and and employees getting impersonated and all these different things,   which, by the way, brings us back to the core that that Unchained alone can't move your funds being fucking massive. But it's also why Unchained it is a trusted relationship to a degree, and they   that them knowing your identity   and being part of that relationship is key. The other piece that I hear a lot of Bitcoiners use Unchained for   is the inheritance aspect.  

And it's pretty hard   to comprehend,   like,   a robust inheritance system,   without understanding   who the who the client is, who their heirs are, and, you know, what their existing situation is. But I will say, Phil, I've gotten into shouting matches over drinks about trust structures versus Sopranos bag in the wall.   That is that is always a fun argument to have at a bar   in the wee hours of the night.  

[00:24:10] Phil Geiger:

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, inheritance is another really popular use case for our services,   and and it all comes down to there's like 2 two sides of ownership,   when it when it comes to really anything, but Bitcoin is just kind of another item. There's the title to the Bitcoin as well as the possession of the Bitcoin. Right? So keys   means that you have possession of the Bitcoin. You regardless of the legal title to the Bitcoin, as long as you have the keys, it you know, you have the Bitcoin. But that said, if you don't have good legal title   and,   down the line, you know, the government   finds out about it, you know, say say you've passed away without titling your Bitcoin correctly,   to your trust or to whatever your will or whatever down the line if the government ever finds that out,   there could be legal ramifications   for your heirs. Right? So it's like you might not be interested in the government, but the government is definitely interested in you. And that's that's kind of the the conundrum we we find ourselves in.  



[00:25:08] ODELL:

Yeah. I think I said on Bravo recap a couple weeks ago.   Like, if someone walks in the room with a gun, you can't, like, just opt out of guns.   So it's important to, you know, be be pragmatic about these things.   I will say I see someone commenting, winsome hacks commenting about   gold confiscation, that type of issue. I will say, like, I think   the idea of a 61 02 attack at least in America, which is the only place I believe Unchained   functions right now,  

[00:25:39] Phil Geiger:

correct me if I'm wrong. Just we we we're available internationally for custody, but if you want access to financial services yeah. If you want, like, you know, trading or loans or anything else, that's US only. Well, anyway, I was gonna say, like, I think at least in terms of 61 02 attack, it's probably overblown at this point.  

[00:25:57] ODELL:

The reality is,   with inflation and hyperinflation and the current capital gain structure,   they basically   already instituted a 61 02 attack. That's probably where it's gonna come from, and that's not even getting me started on this idea of unrealized   cap gain stacks, which I think is a disaster for our economy.   But   and I'm definitely gonna be quoted out of context for this. Like, Bitcoin is the ideal asset for an unrealized capital gains regime because it's 247 traded, very salable, very liquid,   easy to price,   your houses, all this other stuff, startups, very difficult to do all that stuff with, but with Bitcoin, it's actually,   well set up for that situation.  

Yes. In that situation, if if you are or if if you don't have good privacy over your Bitcoin,   the government's gonna know exactly how much you have and how much they're gonna tax you. Now at least in this situation,   you are still   doing it's collaborative custody, but you have total control over your funds. So at the end of the day, the government's gonna have to come after you individually. They will know exactly how much you have in Unchained or wherever else, and they'll have to do that. Now if you're you have your IRA or something else,   with a full blown regulated custodian that has full access to your funds, like, they can just press a button and   remove those funds from your   from your   savings.  

So I would say, like   and and and this is interesting too, Phil. I mean, let's talk about the IRA because,   I mean, I've never had an IRA.   I just, like,   just I don't know. I just been in Bitcoin for a while, and I'm young. Yeah.   Like, make the pit like, there are a lot of Bitcoiners out there that are are using custodians for their IRA product, their IRA. Whether that's using an ETF like BlackRock that just keeps it with Coinbase   or using one of the handful of Bitcoin companies that provide custodial IRA   products. Like, why should they go through the friction of of switching to Unchained?  



[00:28:03] Phil Geiger:

Well, with all the Bitcoin ETFs, I kinda like to think about them. You know, there's, like, 11 or 12 of them now or whatever.   At the end of the day, there's, like, 2 custodians. Right? It's Coinbase and it's Fidelity. And then I think, like, maybe BitGo and one other I think Gemini is They're starting yeah. Starting to get involved, but, like, it's so wild that all at the end of the day, all of these ETFs are just like 2 or 3 custodians.   And it's just an absurd   sum of Bitcoin, 1,000,000 already.   Why why you should hold your own keys   for your retirement Bitcoin? I think the answer is pretty simple. It's it's that you become   unruggable. Right? When you have 2 out of 3 keys to your Bitcoin,   no legal entity can, you know, put put pressure on on your custodian and and confiscate your Bitcoin, whereas they totally can in,   in the in the, you know, ETFs or in a lot of the other custodial   IRAs.  

On top of that,   now after our kind of August promo, we realized that,   what people were really demanding is just an IRA with no setup fees. So we've we've moved the the Bitcoin IRA, the Unchained Bitcoin IRAs to just have no setup fees. And in order to switch now, it's, very, very low cost. So now you can just, you know, if you have another Bitcoin IRA or you're looking to get into a Bitcoin IRA, if you have a big retirement account, wanna get some exposure to Bitcoin, the setup cost is now very low.   Nothing to start, and then the annual fees just kick in a year later, and then, of course, there's a conversion fee for trading dollars for Bitcoin.  

If you're moving from another Bitcoin IRA and they can send Bitcoin in kind, you can do that too, and they can just send Bitcoin directly.  

[00:29:41] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I think there's   a lot people live in very different situations. They have different thread models. There's a lot of nuance that results in me not just blindly recommend people use Unchained,   for some of your products, But for, like, the IRA, like, if you are using a custodial IRA,   stop being a fucking dumbass   and just switch over to Unchained. Like, there's no I don't think there's any trade off except if you lose 2 of your 3 keys.  

[00:30:08] Phil Geiger:

Yeah. You don't you don't need to buy new hardware wallets or anything.   You can use the exact same hardware wallets you use elsewhere, and the reason that this works is because you we can basically just grab a unique   extended public key, x pub, from your hardware wallet that isn't being used for your other wallets. Right? So there's no privacy implement implications there. All of your other funds are still secured in exactly the way that you want them secured, and you can still use your same hardware wallets. You just need to get 2.  

[00:30:35] ODELL:

Yeah. Because, like, the the main trade over them changes privacy   and IRAs by design.   Like, you have to be constantly reporting that shit to the government anyway.  

[00:30:45] Phil Geiger:

Right. It's and then, you know, if if you want to, you know, not not be in the   the legacy retirement structure, you can like liquidate your retirement accounts, but you're hit with massive penalties. So you're if you have a traditional 401 k, for example, and you wanna liquidate it, you have to pay all of your capital gains taxes as well as a 10%   fee to withdraw,   from the the retirement account. And you just can now roll that all over into real Bitcoin where you control the keys for Yeah. Let's can so Muni is asking,  

[00:31:19] ODELL:

can we take our current BS IRA and just go with UC? Like, how does that process what does that process look like? Yeah. So a majority of people who get started with, Unchained IRAs  

[00:31:30] Phil Geiger:

are doing a partial or full rollover from an old IRA or old 401 k. So a lot of people that I've talked to have, like, a a 401 k from 3 companies ago that they totally forgot about.   You can take all those funds and just convert them into Bitcoin and not have to pay any additional, like, fees or anything   to do that.   You would just set up an account with Unchained. You share x pubs from your hardware wallets, build a vault, and then you submit a form that says I want to roll over, you know, x amount of dollars.   We work with the the sending,   custodian,   and that's the process that's honestly takes the hardest is, like, they have no incentive to, like, cut you a check for 100 of 1,000 of dollars. So that part usually takes a little bit, but the sending custodian will send,   either a check, like a physical check-in the mail to you, and then you forward it on. That's true. Yeah, it's it's wild, especially when you do a 401 k rollover. So if you do have an old 401 k from, like, 2 companies ago that you worked for,   you can   they they will, like, literally write you a check, send it in the mail. When I got my check, it was at my house for 30 seconds. I opened the letter, took the check out, put it into another envelope, and put it in the mail. And it was like email it's unchained at that point. Yeah. Well, you email it to our our partner   IRA custodian, which is Fortis Bank right now. But, yeah,   you you literally, like, I had to go find out, you know, where my stamps were in my house and figure out how to write, you know, an address.  

And then it was for me, you know, I had a career   prior to working in Bitcoin and I was saving really diligently in my 401 k. So it was like a very significant   percentage of my net worth that it was just like in the USPS for a week. It's wild. It's wild how the legacy system works.  

[00:33:22] ODELL:

Yeah. Too bad they can't just zap that to you. It's  

[00:33:25] Phil Geiger:

yeah. I was like, are you serious? Like, they're I had to wait 4 days for the check to arrive in the mail and then 4 more days for the check to make it to the IRA custodian. So funny.   So antiquated.  

[00:33:36] ODELL:

One of the cool things I think you guys have rolled out relatively recently is, like, this ability to just buy and sell directly from multisig.  

[00:33:44] Phil Geiger:

Mhmm.  

[00:33:45] ODELL:

So, I mean, on the   I understand how that works from the vault perspective. It's exactly how you think it would work. You just buy and sell directly to your multisig.   How how does that work with the IRA? Is that is it the same situation? Is it, like does the dollars go to Fortis Bank, basically,   and then you can buy or sell into your IRA multisig?  

[00:34:05] Phil Geiger:

So the way that works right now is, you don't have control over exactly the timing, although that is coming. It's, like, very high priority on our road map. The way it works is Fortis Bank receives the funds. As soon as it clears in their accounts,   Unchained Trading executes the trade, deposits it directly into your multisig. So you don't with the way it currently works, you don't have exact precise timing over when you can execute that trade. Although, like I mentioned before, it's a really high priority enhancement that we're looking to roll out in the near future. But what about going forward? Like, so now this is, like, your IRA. Mhmm. Does it can you hold dollars in it too? How does that, like, how does that work? I don't   Yeah. So when you if you want to I don't know what else. No. No worries.  

You can, you can take a distribution from your IRA in dollars or Bitcoin. Once you're at the retirement age, you can roll funds back over into another IRA. So you can, you know, sell Bitcoin to send,   dollars elsewhere. There isn't a way currently to kind of hop in and out of dollars in Bitcoin within the unchained IRA, but that is that is gonna come in the future with the other enhancements over the timing of the trade. Like, what other people like doing with IRAs. Right? Because you can trade it a lot. You never pay cap gains. Right? Like, I Yeah. Right now they're like, ninja trader in their IRAs because they they have no tax hit. Yeah. The the unchained IRA is for diamond hands only right now, but we are, looking to to expand. And, yeah, once the   once the timing of the trading is available, then you'll be able to just, like, quickly hop in and out. But I you know, our our trading is actually really cool too, and it's just another problem that we had to solve because we are going directly to and from multisig.  

So unchained trading has a much higher minimum than, like, maybe an exchange or like a DCA app. And that's because we are shipping UTXOs   to multisig. So right now for trading with Unchained, it's like $2,000 minimum. And it's because we don't wanna have, like, a bunch of tiny UTXOs within these different vaults.   And the last thing I'll say about trading is I just think that the our sell workflow is amazing because you sign with both of your keys and then   broadcasting the transaction to the network is what actually executes the sale. So you have full control over your Bitcoin until the second that you sell it, which I think is unique.  

[00:36:20] ODELL:

Yeah. I will,   humbly take credit for Unchained prioritizing   UTXO management,   through my many calls and mempools will never clear again.   I think I   but, unfortunately, we have we have it appears we have some time. The next block is only 4 sets per v byte, but who knows how long that will last for.   So it's that's definitely like an interesting   little microcosm.   Not microcosm, but a different perspective that or or,   an issue that a self custody first   business has to deal with that custodial businesses just straight up don't have to deal with, which is   you don't wanna give your your users, your clients, like, just a bunch of little ass UTXOs   that maybe in 20 years they try and spend, and who knows what   what the fee market is in 20 years. And then they're like, Unchained, you   you fucked me. Like,  

[00:37:17] Phil Geiger:

that's insane. Yeah. I wanna shout out Tom Honsick on the Unchained team because he's been for 2 plus years, I think, writing and producing   amazing UTXO   content,   all kinds of different things. He's done a bunch of research with all the,   hardware wallets about their signing capabilities and the different types of UTXOs you have to look out for. Because,   for the signing devices, what's really critical is   where you got your UTXO from. Right? So there are these miners that will batch spend,   like, thousands   of transactions at one time, and that UTXO,   like,   it is   is, you know, we we call it heavier, much heavier than the other UTXOs, and the signing devices just   fail. Right? Yeah. So you have to be really careful about where you're getting your UTXOs from and then how many UTXOs you're accumulating. And, yeah, we've done a lot of work, you know, thanks in part to the to your efforts and and other people's efforts just highlighting UTXOs is a problem. Yeah. I mean, it's also one of those things, right, which is, like,  

[00:38:20] ODELL:

you wanna empower users, but you also don't wanna, like, scare the shit out of them.   And, like, coin control still is I I consider it an unsolved problem. Like, the rider dies know how to use coin control and can handle it.   But the overwhelming majority of people, like, just even conceptually,   it just it blows their mind that, okay. There's all these different UTXOs. Like, my my fee burden is based on how many are on the input side versus the output side. It's like this whole there's a whole thing,   and it's a delicate balancing act between   exposing that to the user   and,   and and and giving them, like,   same default best practices. Right? Totally. Try and find that balance, and you guys are starting to really,   you know, starting to find it.  

I just had something else that I wanted to talk about, but I completely,   completely forgot. We can,   while we're I mean   so, like, the big news the big news this last week,   that me and you have had been   working on was this this new donor advised   fund product.   In particularly, it's incredibly   interesting to me on when I'm wearing my OpenSats hat,   is   is lowering the friction,   for donors who want to support, in my situation, open source contributors, but,   in your situation, just charitable causes altogether. So what is this donor advised fund product? Why should we care? It sounds really boring on the surface.   Chill us.  



[00:40:01] Phil Geiger:

Donor advised funds are something that, you know, I I really started learning about through the process of us bringing one of these to market. But what blew my mind was that right now,   like, a quarter $1,000,000,000,000,   about $250,000,000,000   are currently stored in these donor advised funds. Now what they are is they are an account   at a public   charity.   So you have, like, what's called a DAF sponsor, and you have an account with them. And you can think about a donor advised fund as another type of tax   advantaged account.  

So I think of it similar to an IRA or similar to an HSA   health savings account,   but it is an account that you have at a public charity where you can donate funds to it, invest those funds in whatever you would like to invest in   with the caveat that the funds all have to make it to a 501c3   at the end of the day. So they're really   popular among   high net worth individuals,   people who are charitable givers, and what's awesome about the Bitcoin DAF is   we've we've worked with a lot of nonprofit orgs and a lot of people who are like, you know, I wanna onboard my church to Bitcoin. I wanna onboard my university to Bitcoin. I wanna blah blah blah. Like, any cause that you can think of, a 501c3,   that you've thought about, like, hey, I'd like to give,   Bitcoin to them or get them onto a Bitcoin standard.  

A DAF is a really simple way for you to hold Bitcoin   on behalf of those organizations.   Right?   And there's a lot of, like, immediate tax benefits,   to using DAFs. And I'm not a tax advisor or financial planner, so you gotta work with, you know, those folks for your own situation. This is legal tax advice for you. This is legal.   Jeff Andrew's gonna murder me.   But, like, you get immediate tax write offs for your donation when you move funds into the DAF. You get your immediate tax write off, and then again, like, you can invest those funds into whatever you want. With the Bitcoin DAF, you can hold, a key   to the Bitcoin because it's in collaborative custody with the DAF sponsor, you, and Unchained.  

So it's a super cool way to   get more organizations,   kind of exposure to Bitcoin without having to, like, teach them anything about it. You can just make a donation   in dollars or Bitcoin from this special account type, and they don't have to know. Right? You could say, hey. This is a donation from a Bitcoin DAF, or you can send them Bitcoin directly from the DAF. And, yeah, it just it just helps these nonprofit orgs   get closer   to   large amounts of Bitcoin.  

[00:42:40] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, so this is   apparently, like, I've learned this on the OpenSAT side. Like, this is what a lot of rich people do,   to get,   they they get they get the tax deduction early on.   And then usually, they they hold it with some regulated financial institution that's holding it in dollars,   completely custodial, obviously, completely KYC, obviously.   And then so they have that tax deduction upfront.   And then from that point forward,   they're they're distributing it out to different charities that they want,   to support.  

Yep. But they can do that over time,   as they find   as they find   solid recipients that they they want to send to.   For example, this is what this is what Jack Dorsey   has done with his start small initiative. That's a donor advised fund that then supported Open Sats,   but that's all dollar based. Like, then we receive the dollars   and and we convert it to Bitcoin.   With this, the beauty is you can actually hold that money in Bitcoin.   So then long term,   you know, that that donor advised fund should increase in purchasing power over time and and and be able to support even more causes,   which is really cool. So in practice, Phil, does this look like a regular unchained vault? Is this a is the client holding 2 of 3 keys?  



[00:44:06] Phil Geiger:

No. So in a donor advised fund vault, a client holds one key because as soon as you move   funds into the DAF, I'll call it DAF for now on,   and you can move this is another thing. You can move Bitcoin directly into it. If you have, like,   shitcoin exposure that you need to to, like, figure out how to get out of, you can donate   shit coins to the DAF and upgrade it to Bitcoin. You can donate Nice. Real estate, stocks. Like, you can donate all kinds of different assets to the donor advised fund, have them,   turn it into Bitcoin, and then you control one key. But again, once it's donated, it is no longer your Bitcoin. Right? So you get to participate in the security   of the donor advised fund Bitcoin by having a key, but it is now, legally titled, we talked about titles earlier, to UI Charitable, which is our donor advised fund sponsor, University Impact Charitable Advisors.  

But, yeah, it's a it's a super cool way to So who's the 2  

[00:45:01] ODELL:

there's 3 keys. Right? Client is holding one key. They can obviously see that the funds aren't  

[00:45:07] Phil Geiger:

being pulled out from underneath them. Yep. And then UI charitable holds a key and then unchained holds the 3rd key. And then the way that your vault appears is it just shows up in your account under   shared vaults. So last month, right before Bitcoin 2024, we released unchained connections, which allows you to, like, get connected to friends and family or, in this case, a donor advised fund sponsor   and,   build shared vaults. Right? So you still have your key. You're not compromising your own security, but now you can see this vault that is a shared vault,   where you can control a key and donate funds to.  



[00:45:43] ODELL:

Alright. That makes sense. That's awesome.   I remembered what I was gonna say, by the way, for the regular vaults,   just an interesting thing for people to keep in mind in practice.   Like, so you have 2 of the 3 keys. You can just import that into Sparrow Wallet, and you can just   if if Unchained goes out of business or you just   think they should go fuck themselves or something like that, you can easily just move your funds   out using Sparrow Wallet. You don't need you don't need Unchained's permission. It's actually incredibly easy to do. They, like, have it in the interface.  

[00:46:14] Phil Geiger:

Yeah. It's even better than that actually, Matt. Like, I published a video, a couple months ago. Like, you can use your Unchained Vault day to day from Sparrow, Electrum,   Caravan. It's not just for recovery. You just take your multisig file. You load it into Sparrow by, like, literally dragging and dropping it, and then you can use your vault for day to day activities just from Sparrow if you like Sparrow better. And then on top of that, you can also use it with hardware wallets that Unchained doesn't officially support yet. Right? So take your seed phrase, load it onto a jade or a bit box or, you know, whatever foundation device and, use it from Sparrow.  

[00:46:52] ODELL:

That's awesome. Yeah. It's really cool. Okay. So back to the donor advised funds.   First of all,   I I know, like, I'm physically wearing my 1031 hat, but I have my Open Sats hat on now. Let's just imagine that.   If you have Bitcoin that you wanna donate, you should just just donate it to Open Sats. Like, we are I we we strive to be the most efficient, transparent,   change oriented,   charity. I think we're gonna change the world for the better.   More donors, the better. We we we can use more support. All the support is appreciated.   The cool thing about the DAF is or this product for you guys is that you can support all these different initiatives that don't accept Bitcoin directly.  



[00:47:35] Phil Geiger:

That's right.  

[00:47:36] ODELL:

I was surprised. I thought this was like   like a rich person product, like a super rich, uber rich person product.   Is what are the minimum but I you corrected me before we went on air. Like, what are the minimums   for   this DAF?  

[00:47:54] Phil Geiger:

There's no,   as far as I'm aware, there's no minimums to get started.   That's all, again, on, like, the UI charitable side. So the the DAF sponsor, they have their own kind of pricing structure, but I believe you can,   donate, you know, as little as you want. There is an annual fee on their side, and I believe the minimum fee is something like,   I'm forgetting off the top of my head, a few $100, not not super outrageous,  

[00:48:19] ODELL:

but, like, you know So it's like in the $10,000   range. Like, if you have, like   Yeah. If if if if you have, like,   what what is that? Like, 20,000,000, 30,000,000   sats. 30,000,000   sats is is, like, 20 k right now.   So, like, 20,000,000 sats   range, 25,000,000  

[00:48:38] Phil Geiger:

sats range, like, this this could work for you. This is not necessarily someone who's Yeah. Totally. And the and the fees kind of, they are tiered. Right? So university impact charges, I think,   you know, some basis points off of, the first 500 k donated, and then it, like, ratchets down.   But that's all, again, the pricing on their end because they are the ones that are kind of the DAF sponsor. So you're working with them. And then within the Unchained platform, you just kind of see the the shared vault that you can use.   But, yeah, the the average donor advised fund size in the US right now is something like   $115,000. So that definitely skews a little bit higher net worth, but there's no reason for folks who,   you know, just wanna wanna help hold Bitcoin on behalf of their church. Like, if you give, you know, a couple $1,000 to your church a year,   you could just do one donation into the DAF,   turn it into Bitcoin, and then drip it out to the, charity over time.  

Although, you know, again, kind of running into the unchained trading desk,   minimums.  

[00:49:41] ODELL:

Right. Fair enough.   Okay. That's awesome.  

[00:49:44] Phil Geiger:

Yeah.   Should be good. I think, you know, I think   when for for somebody like myself, like, we've had that saying in Bitcoin, fix the money, fix the world over the years, and, like, Bitcoin itself fixes the money. And this is just, like, a way that I got really excited about when we kind of found the opportunity because it's, like, our way to help   the the latter half there, like, actually impact change using the wealth that you've kind of,   generated through holding Bitcoin.  

[00:50:09] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I actually   I'm just thinking out loud here.   I can be kind of known as a provocative individual.   I think if you have larger   if you have larger amounts of Bitcoin that you're trying to donate, like, maybe actually consider, like, throwing your dick around and   requesting that the charity accepts Bitcoin directly. This might actually be even more useful for the people that are donating less amounts that can't necessarily throw their dick around, and they have to donate through fiat. They have no choice.   Like, that's how Bitcoin Beach started, basically. It was like the donor was like, I'm gonna give you Bitcoin. You have to keep it as Bitcoin, and you have to distribute it as Bitcoin. And they didn't wanna turn away the money.  

So,  

[00:50:54] Phil Geiger:

that's great. Yeah. If you're if you're a large donor, yeah, I think that's that's the way to go for sure. And then, you know, of course, you can always skip the whole donor advised fund thing and just donate directly to causes.   If you plan to give, like, a lot of donations throughout a year, that's another reason to consider a donor advised fund is you just, like, make one large donation and then drip out the funds however you see fit. But yeah. I mean, I think just more Bitcoin native tools for people who are treating Bitcoin as their long term savings.  

[00:51:21] ODELL:

Awesome.   So, I mean, Phil, what else what are you excited about at Unchained?   Do you have do you have anything to tease for us or  

[00:51:30] Phil Geiger:

what's Yeah. I mean   oh, man. You know, you brought up, kind of tiered k y c ideas, and it's something that we've been thinking about for a long time of how to help people who,   maybe   don't wanna make that full trade off.   And,   we have something cooking that I think is very cool, very cypherpunk,   and,   that'll be coming I don't know exactly when. Never know when. Soon, t m. But, I think you'll like it in particular.  

[00:52:00] ODELL:

Okay. I'm gonna hold you to that.   What I was just gonna oh,   before we wrap,   so I've seen you dabbling on Nostra a little bit, like, what are your thoughts on Nostra? Like, how are you how are you thinking about that right now?  

[00:52:14] Phil Geiger:

As a marketing professional   and   particularly a marketing professional that needs to   grow the Bitcoin,   ecosystem,   I find myself still using Elon Nostr a lot more than Nostr,   just because I can get in front of a lot more   people and eyeballs,   on Twitter than I can on Noster. Now Noster is awesome, I think, for like speaking directly   to the Bitcoin community.   I still think from a user usability   experience, like there's a lot to be improved. And every time I post on Nostra not every time, you you reposted   my, DAF announcement, so I appreciate that. But most of the time when I post on Nostra and I have like, you know,   1100 followers or something on Noster, it's just, like, I don't get any engagement, but it's probably because I'm not, investing a ton of time,   into Noster.  



[00:53:06] ODELL:

So, I mean,   not trying to be a dick here,   but I'm I'm scrolling through your Twitter account.   Yeah. You posted 6 hours ago   about   it's very cool to see prominent players like KPMG come out in support of Bitcoin, and, additionally, cool that they're recognizing collaborative custody as one of the best forms of Bitcoin custody. You got 10 likes on that.  

[00:53:32] Phil Geiger:

Oh, no. My yeah. My account has has gone downhill, man. I think I'm just, maybe  

[00:53:38] ODELL:

It's not your fault. It's, like, I I just   the platform   the platform just, like, it it it encourages, like, the rage baiting stuff. Totally. Totally agree. So, like, I do think, like, I think the   I think the argument, like, the reach argument   is, like, for most people probably not even valid. Like, I think you like, if you would actually   put more time into Noster, like, you probably get more engagement there, and the interesting thing is, like, we are getting a decent amount of of   pre coiners that come into noster and then they turn into bitcoiners.   So I agree with you on, like, the timing thing, like, obviously,   Twitter exclaims that they have, like, a half 1000000000 users, you know.  

Noster,   you know, probably has, like, a 100000 users or something like that.   Conservative estimates would put it more at, like, 40 1000, 50 1000 person.   But it's important to realize that anyone can make an educated guess on how many Nostr users there are.  

[00:54:38] Phil Geiger:

We just take Elon's word for it on how many Twitter users there are. That doesn't have to be And so many of those accounts are just, like, trash bots and stuff. Like,   I agree with you. There's, there's definitely gonna be   an evolution in in social media, especially, like, now that private keys are becoming more of a standard.  

[00:54:56] ODELL:

But, yeah, we need to make   I the way I look at it is is I like   I accidentally   became, like, a Twitter influencer.   I I I just think it's it's just bad for the soul, and and so, like, if I'm wrong about Noster, like, so be it, then I just wanna use social media. And I understand, like, you come out from a different perspective as, like, a marketing professional, but,   if I'm gonna, like, devote my time to shitposting,   like, I'd rather be on, like, the freedom oriented protocol that is is changing all the incentives and all the dynamics.  

[00:55:33] Phil Geiger:

That's the that's the other thing I'll say about Noster is all my favorite accounts to reply dunk to are just not on Noster. Right? Like, I can't dunk on Krugman on Noster. Okay. So can I give you my theory? Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:55:45] ODELL:

Okay.   So we  

[00:55:48] Phil Geiger:

I can't tell Janet Yellen that her photos are really cute on Noster. Yeah. But here's the thing. It's like Janet,  

[00:55:55] ODELL:

or Krugman   or Peter Schiff,   like, they get the best engagement   that they have on any post when they shit on Bitcoin and get the reply guys from Bitcoin Twitter. I know. That's their best engagement. Right?   So if we starve the beast and the Bitcoiners go to Noster,   then we have our own set of reply guys. Like, there's a bunch of Bitcoin haters that they get their best engagement reply going Bitcoiners. So   the Bitcoiners move to Nasr,   then the haters   move to Nasr to reply guy us, and then we start to fill out everything in between.   And, like, maybe that's a I don't know how long that's gonna take.  

But I think large accounts,   particularly large accounts, can make a big difference   moving to at least a nostril first approach. They don't have to go, like,   full balls deep, caps Odell,   delete their x account, and just, like,   jump in all in.   But if they go Noster first and, like, most of their   content, most of their shit posts, most of their replies are on Noster,   what happens is, like, their haters will also come to Noster because this is the like, we have our own haters, like, they have to come to like, if someone wants to shit on me,   that was the problem when I had the x account,   was I had an x account that I hadn't used for 6 months as, like, a visible protest,   but my haters were still tagging me   on x. And they were like, look how weak he is. He's not responding. Well, now you can't even fucking tag me on x. If you wanna hate on me, you have to come you have to come and use Nostra.  

And there's something there. Hardest that hatred, Odell.  

[00:57:33] Phil Geiger:

Yeah. You can't be loved without being hated. Love it. It's No. I think I I'm I'm, like, open to Nostra. I I I think, you know, I've used it. I use it   occasionally and Yeah. No. No. No. I'll start I know. I'll start using it more.  

[00:57:48] ODELL:

Thank you. I just needed you to But I'm not getting rid of my blue check. Yeah. We know you're not. We know you're not. It's fine. You   you'll eventually just stop using it, but you'll keep your account. I know you will, but it's fine.   Awesome.   Phil, this has been a great chat. I'm glad we finally got you on dispatch. Hopefully, we'll let's try and do, like, more routine follow ups as as you guys launch things.   Yeah. Do you have do you have any final thoughts,   before we wrap?  

[00:58:18] Phil Geiger:

No. Not really. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. It's been a long time coming, and, yeah, definitely check out what we're working on at Unchained and,   follow me on Noster. I think my account I don't can we link to my Noster account from the chat here? I don't know. And what's your input? You wanna read it out loud? Yeah. Let me read out my my private key.  

[00:58:37] ODELL:

No. Your public key. Then then that we don't wanna post from your account. I have this list of 12 words in my pocket. It's somebody said it was a Bitcoin private key. Is that Oh, in the in the show notes in the show notes Just kidding.   In the show notes, I will I will link,   I will link Phil's Phil's nostr account so you can go follow him on nostr.   Also, if you follow me on nostr,   my last nostr post tagged Phil,   And you can tell he doesn't use Noster because it's the day he's coming on Odell's show,   and he didn't he didn't repost it, which means he wasn't checking. He didn't he didn't check today. Out of all the days, he didn't check, but he is tagged. He is tagged, so you can follow him that way. I'm gonna repost it right now, and I'm gonna I'm gonna close with you. Tell them to come into the live chat, and you're gonna repost it after the show ends would be ideal. Yes. That would be perfect.   Awesome. This has been great. It's always fun chatting.  

It's nice that we finally got to do it on air.   Freaks.   The   you doing the the music videos at the end of dispatch has become more trouble than it's worth. I have to, like, automatically carve them out. I have to, like, carve them out after the fact on YouTube and stuff. So I'm gonna start ending with Wave Lake stuff because,   it's value for value and doesn't   require any kind of copyright situations.   But, also, I'm on a family road trip, and I'm in the closet   right now. I'm in the closet. I'm in the closet. I'm in a closet in this Airbnb right now.   So I have not done that. There's gonna be no music at the end of this. I'm sorry to rug you on that.  

I love you all.   My final thoughts are if you do have an IRA   and you have it in, like, NVIDIA or Bitcoin ETFs or something like that,   stop being a fucking idiot.   Roll it into an Unchained IRA.   It's gonna take some time. You're gonna have to probably get a check-in the mail or some shit and, like, then mail it to Unchained. You you wanna do that before, like, the bull starts ripping, so it's, like, the longest week of your life if if the bull starts ripping while you're doing this. And that's the price you pay for dealing with counterparties,  

[01:00:45] Phil Geiger:

man. Like, you know, if you had Bitcoin directly, you wouldn't have to wait out of the market for 2 weeks.  

[01:00:51] ODELL:

Yeah. You'll never have to deal with that again, so   make that happen. If you're listening right now, you're like, fuck. I'm yes. Take a deep breath.   Make it happen.   I I think you'll be very and and, also, if you're using a Bitcoin custodial   IRA   through the handful of companies that are doing it, please consider switching to something where they can't rug you. I think,   I don't feel like dealing with drama right now, but,   you never know when the next rug could happen,   so you should consider   moving   now   ASAP.  

[01:01:26] Phil Geiger:

The ruggings will continue until private keys are ubiquitous.  

[01:01:29] ODELL:

Exactly. Thank you, Phil. Thank you, Freaks.   Stay on the stack sets. Thanks, guys.