Citadel Dispatch

Share on social media:

Hal Finney is believed to have been the second bitcoiner after Satoshi and received the first bitcoin transaction.

Today marks the tenth anniversary of his death on August 28th, 2014. We celebrate his life with his wife Fran Finney.

Learn more about the Running Bitcoin Challenge and support Fran's mission to end ALS: https://runningbitcoin.us

EPISODE: 138
BLOCK: 858865
PRICE: 1683 sats per dollar

support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/donate
nostr live chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/stream
nostr account: https://primal.net/odell
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@CitadelDispatch
podcast: https://serve.podhome.fm/CitadelDispatch
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: https://citadeldispatch.com/chat

(00:02:05) Remembering Hal Finney: 10th Anniversary

(00:08:00) Fran Finney on Hal's Early Bitcoin Discussions

(00:10:08) Hal Finney's Vision for Bitcoin

(00:20:38) Running Bitcoin Challenge and Fran's Injury

(00:32:04) Understanding ALS

(00:41:06) Fran's Life and Hobbies

(00:50:00) Hal Finney as a Father

(01:00:02) Introduction of the Finney Prize

(01:18:14) Committee and Prize Mechanics

[00:00:03] Unknown:

We're just revealing your proposal for a strategic Bitcoin   reserve, and I think hoping for,   a substantive sort of feedback period here between now and the end of the year. How's that going?  

[00:00:16] Unknown:

Well, it's going really well.   We had proposed   that we use   our gold certificates,   bring mark them to market,   sell them for US dollars, invest US dollars in Bitcoin,   store it   untouched for 20   years, and   a 1,000,000 Bitcoin would reduce our current debt in half.   So,   it is a play to back the US dollar. It's also a play to   make sure that our debt is being retired and having a strategy for it.   So I continue to visit with members of the senate about that   concept.   We know this is something that's not ready for 2024   prime time legislation,   but it will be in 2025.  



[00:01:42] ODELL:

What is up, freaks?   It's your host, Odell, here   for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive   live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   Today's date is August 28,   2024.   It's a Wednesday. It's a Bitcoin Wednesday.   Today is the the 10 year anniversary   of prolific   Bitcoin contributor,   Hal Finney,   of his death in August 28, 2014.   I'm humbly joined here by his wife, Fran Finney.   Welcome to the show, Fran.  

[00:02:23] Fran Finney:

Matt, thank you for having me.   And, yes, today is a is a very   different   and special in a not very good way   day for me.   It's nice. It's really nice to see   this date being used as a way to commemorate Hal as opposed to something else. I I do appreciate that very much.  

[00:02:49] ODELL:

Well,   I know,   I know this must be   a incredibly difficult day for you.   So it does mean a lot to us all that you're joining us. I just the pause there was I was having a technical difficulty, but it looks like our live chat is coming through. So,   it's an honor to have   hopefully,   hundreds of Bitcoiners join us,   for this conversation.   Before we get started,   just a little brief context on your husband   and just a a tiny bit into his contributions to Bitcoin because it's really hard to do more than just scratch the surface   without going on an incredible monologue.  

But Hal is believed to be the 2nd ever Bitcoiner after Satoshi.   He received,   the first Bitcoin transaction ever   a few days after Bitcoin was created,   from Satoshi himself.   That was 10 Bitcoin.   To the great mathematicians that are listening now, that's equivalent of of $600,000,   but it was worth   not even a penny back then.   And how how almost immediately   saw what the value of of the Bitcoin project could be and what it could mean to the world. It's it's quite astounding if you go back   and you read as many foreign posts. I mean, he had the first tweet ever   about Bitcoin when he said running Bitcoin.  

As early as 2,010, 2009, he said this project could be the future reserve currency of the world. It could be the future currency of the world. It could be worth 1,000,000 of dollars.   It could it could provide freedom to millions of people.   And it's just quite astounding   how well he seemed to have seen it in such an early days.   You know, what was that 15 years ago?   And also,   it's just incredibly difficult to overstate,   his his many contributions to the space. I mean,   some might think that Bitcoin is inevitable now.   But back then, it was definitely not inevitable.  

And it   is easy to think of Bitcoin as a   as a software project.   But, ultimately, it's a movement of individuals and it relies on on these people   pushing forward and and and making this movement a reality.   And Hal   was   one of the very first to do that. So,   I just wanted to start it off with   that I have huge respect,   for your husband.   That's an honor and privilege to have you here,   and I have huge respect for   you pushing   forward his ideas   and,   and his memory   in order to try   and make the world a better place. So thank you, Fran.  

[00:05:54] Fran Finney:

Matt, thank you.   Yeah.   I have to say that I'm so heartened and and so   amazed and encouraged by   the support that I do get from the Bitcoin community.   It it's been   truly   amazing and and very and   I really have great hopes that this community can continue to   make important have important impact on   on the world as as we move forward   on a lot of things.  

[00:06:32] ODELL:

Wonderful. Well, we have plenty to talk about, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation.   But before we get started, I think it would be great to have a moment of silence for Hal. So I hope all of you listening and friend   join me in this moment of silence. Thank you.   I thought about waiting a whole bitcoin block in honor of Hal. I felt like that would be fitting, but we'll have to settle for a minute.   So, Fran,   when,   if you don't mind me asking, like, when did I mean, Hal told the was was kind of telling the whole world about Bitcoin. Did did he first start discussing it with you early on? Did he mention that he was interested in this crazy software project?  

[00:08:18] Fran Finney:

Well, he's always been,   interested in the this kind of potential for   I would say that,   of course, Bitcoin didn't have a name, Bitcoin, but he he talked to me,   about a lot of his ideas about making,   changing the way that currency was,   changing the monetary system. I I have to say I'm not very technical. So I was very aware of his excitement and his interest and   his realizing there was a potential to change things. I didn't really understand it though. But, that was back in the nineties when he was already talking about things in that vein,   way before anything   became Bitcoin.  

I remember late nineties, 97, 98, he was talking about   related   programming and and changes in how he could make things work with and and I can't talk to you about that, Matt, because I'm so nontechnical.   But I I would say this was something that wasn't   2009. This was at least,   over 10 years prior he was   into   thinking about how something like this could happen.  

[00:09:36] ODELL:

Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, I think and you bring you bring up a good point there, which is that a lot of people, you know, falsely believe that just Bitcoin came out of nowhere.   But there was decades of precursor projects,   and hundreds of people that were working on them and trying to tackle this problem, before Bitcoin was released to the world.   So   and and how how is one of those people intimately involved with a lot of those projects and and watching them grow?   So,   I mean, I don't know.   And and   and while we're on, I mean, while we're on the Bitcoin topic,   do you what's what's your relationship with Bitcoin today? Like, how do you think about Bitcoin today?  



[00:10:29] Fran Finney:

I like to think of it as being something that is world changing. Something I don't like to think of it as an investment when people talk about Bitcoin in terms of investment and value.   I think that's that's so   such a small part of what Bitcoin can be. Bitcoin can be something that can change the way   can equalize,   people around the world can can make   it so that things can be I like the transparency of the transactions. I like the fact that it's it can be   not controlled by a,   by a government. I I've, but still,   I guess philosophically,   I'd like it to be utilized for the good and   and not for   people's personal   selfish   gain. But I think of it as something big rather than just an investment.  

And it's and it's,   potential to do things   in in more in towards the good rather than   just give giving people you know, I'm such a bad talker, Matt. I can't I can't, Right. You're doing great. Yeah. Yeah.   I think I think I think of it as having a lot of potential to change the world in a good way. Let's just leave it at that.  

[00:11:50] ODELL:

Well, I think a lot of us would agree with you. I I think one of the most fascinating things about Hal was that he kind of understood both aspects. Right? He kind of understood,   he kind understood the power of the power of good that this project could could bring about,   while also at the same time   would literally very,   very succinctly.   I mean, he was just he was calling for $1,000,000 Bitcoin   in 2,009, 2010,   which is, you know, even if if if I was to go live today   and say that Bitcoin was gonna be a $1,000,000,   they're they're, like, 1,000,000,000 of people would laugh me out of the room.  

But   but he was saying this in 2,010,009   publicly, which is a crazy and that's just   I just,   it's something that just blows my mind.   But at the same time, I think he was intimately aware of of the power of of freedom money, essentially, this idea that people could spend and save without permission.   And   it's,   exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You you you kinda have to take both you have to take both at the same time. One requires the other, which is one of the hard parts for for people to comprehend about Bitcoin.   You know, while I I I feel like it's important,   to mention   Hal's,   early insight into the potential   for massive Bitcoin price appreciation,   I do want to make very clear   that   you are not you know,   neither neither you nor Hal were really able to benefit from any of that,   you know, Bitcoin's massive price appreciation over the years.  

Even I think Hal said early days that that 10 Bitcoin,   he might have I I think he might have even said publicly that he lost those 10 Bitcoin.   But,   I know you have been harassed in the past, in regards to people thinking that you have large amounts of Bitcoin. And unfortunately, I would say unfortunately, that's not the case because I think me and many other Bitcoiners   wish you had more Bitcoin than Michael Saylor.   And I will just say that straight up, but   that is not the case. So I want that to be very clear.   So, Fran, also before we continue on,   you recently had an injury,   so you will be turning off your camera,   briefly throughout this conversation.  



[00:14:26] Fran Finney:

Do you wanna share anything about that injury? Or Oh, sure. Sure. I I guess I I'd like to share it in a in a sense to draw to,   our to the   annual   running for Bitcoin.   We have a a Bitcoin running Bitcoin challenge every year. And   so,   it's gonna have an impact on how I participate this year, but I'm using   that challenge as a way to motivate me to get active again.   But but back in May, I   was,   very   unfortunate   in falling,   from a hanging position and   I did   a complex,   a compound   displaced fracture in my femur. And it was a pretty serious one.   I was real I'm very   grateful that the people who took care of me and got me to the hospital were able to keep my circulation going and keep my nerves going. So I'm going to have normal circulation and feeling in that leg.  

The knee was injured and this has been 3 months now and I'm still   working on walking without an assistive device right now.   So it's kind of, it's been a slow process. I'm gonna be seeing the doctor in November and possibly having another surgery.   But it's, it's doing well. And it actually   only draws home to me the fact that I am getting better every day. I'm learning how I'm I'm getting stronger every day.   And even if I don't get back to running the way I was running prior to the injury, I'm going to be continuing to improve. And the contrast between that and how with his ALS over the time that he suffered from it is is huge. I mean every time I start to feel a little bit bad about my injury   I think about how   how   had to adapt   constantly   to losing more and more. I'll talk about ALS at some point. I'll just finish up the part about my injury. I would say that I'm very   aware of that though. I'm aware that   I'm getting better and even if it takes me   a year   to be   doing where getting where I'm going to get,   that's fine. And the fact that I keep improving is amazing.  

It's,   it's work, and it's frustrating, but it's   it really is amazing, and I feel really   happy about that. So it keeps me from feeling frustrated or down. But meanwhile,   getting back to our challenge,   every year, we we've been doing we started a few years ago,   some of the Bitcoin community,   had approached me about doing a fundraiser for,   in honor of Hal, and we do that every year. We it it runs,   around the time that Hal did his   running Bitcoin tweet. We've just   arranged it around that because Hal loved to run, and that was one of his big things.   And and so,   around January   10th every year, we have this,   challenge.  

And   every year,   I've been participating by running in the challenge. And this year, I'm planning on participating, but I might be   not running.   I might be walking and hopefully, I'll be walking,   without a cane by then. But we'll see.   So,  

[00:18:05] ODELL:

So,   how many years have you done this challenge so far now?  

[00:18:10] Fran Finney:

I think this will be year number 4 coming up.   So,   I think we've done it for 3 years.  

[00:18:18] ODELL:

And, I mean, Hal, there's this famous photo of Hal. We actually you know, I'm recording live from Bitcoin Park. Yeah. In Nashville. And I think we have   3 different versions of that photo. You know the photo I'm talking about of Hal running?  

[00:18:32] Fran Finney:

Yeah. Yeah.   I I took  

[00:18:36] ODELL:

Is you took that picture. You're the photographer?  

[00:18:39] Fran Finney:

Yeah. Yeah. That was a a funny funny situation. Hal and I, we we always used to do things together. He was very active in addition to he would in addition to being this amazing   programmer,   coder,   philosopher, whatever else he was, he liked to be active and we used to run. And not seriously, just kind of for fun and for fitness.   But that was a a run that he we did. It was a race I took him running in, back   early days of our marriage.   And   I snapped him. I was he was in this race and I was running alongside with the camera and I managed to catch his attention and he looked at me and I snapped the picture and it was just one of those old fashioned,   film cameras,   that you had to take to be developed and everything, but I still had that print. So   we made copies of it and used that for our fundraiser.  



[00:19:37] ODELL:

I mean, that picture's like I mean, you're I guess you're an iconic photographer now.   That   picture is way down in history.  

[00:19:46] Fran Finney:

I was really pleased with it because I had to run alongside him in order to get that picture. I had to be running at the speed that he was running at, and then I had to catch his attention.   He had to see me.  

[00:19:56] ODELL:

And so that was fun. I didn't know that backstory.   Yeah.   Did you guys do you would was that something you guys did together? You would run together? Oh, yeah. He was a he was a distance runner, and I was a,  

[00:20:10] Fran Finney:

sprinter,   short runner. So when when we ran, he would tend to run longer than me,   but I could run faster than him.   So he would towards the end when he was training for marathons,   I would join him for the end of his run. He would go on a long run. And then at the very end, I would run out to meet him and run back the rest of the way with him.  

[00:20:33] ODELL:

That's wonderful.   Okay.   So we mentioned ALS.   ALS is the disease that   unfortunately took Hal from this world.   You've been you've been quite outspoken in terms of trying to build support for research,   trying to tackle it and and   improve the lives of people that are with it.   But to the audience, I mean, what do you want what do you want people to know about ALS and the fight against ALS?  

[00:21:13] Fran Finney:

Yeah.   Okay.   I think it it's hard it's hard to actually   understand   what a awful disease it is unless you've   lived it or lived with someone who   has had it.   It's   different   from most other diseases, even progressive ones that get worse because it hits   most people so hard and so   fast. And I think   for one of the hardest things   for me to watch with Hal was the fact that the disease once   it's   when a person has ALS,   whatever, wherever they are, they're never gonna be better than they are that day. They're gonna keep losing more and more. It's a disease that hits your ability   to move.  

It hits your your what's called your motor neurons, which are the nerves that control   movement.   And that's what it's most known for. It does affect other things too. It it,   has   it it's not just the nerves from the brain. It also impact impacts parts of the brain itself,   primarily the parts of the brain that control movement, but other things too. What what what that means though is that   a person will lose their ability to   to   walk, to move their legs,   to to use their hands, to use their arms,   to talk,   to swallow,   to breathe.  

Eventually,   it can affect everything.   By the time Hal was at at the last part of Hal's life,   he was on life support for breathing. But he couldn't even control his eye movement anymore.   And that was awful because he couldn't even communicate with his eyes   via the computer. He couldn't even   really read because he couldn't move his eyes to read.   He could still hear.   He could still see, he could things could go into his eyes but he couldn't control what he looked at.   So that that was pretty awful, the communication   was   got incredibly difficult towards the end I think that might have been   the hardest part for him.  

I guess another thing about, another thing about ALS that is confusing to people is people think, oh, Stephen Hawking. He lived   for 30 years with ALS or even longer and he was able to do all these brilliant things.   And it's because   ALS or motor neuron disease isn't really one disease. It's kind of like cancer.   You can have cancer and it can be all different things depending on what kind of cancer.   Only we don't understand   ALS well enough to really define   that well all the different types of ALS.   We're learning more and more. The research is is getting us there, Matt, but it's not there yet. So it is now a lot better understood than it was 10 years ago when Hal died. And they do really understand   that there are different thing different   diseases or different types of progressive   breakdown of your   motor neurons that all come under the umbrella of ALS. But some people are going to find that it's really fast   and really hits everything.  

And if they don't go on life support, they're they're dead in less than a year. And other people are gonna be more like Stephen Hawking. It's gonna be slower   and maybe not   hit them that quickly, and they can learn to live with it and adapt.   No matter how it is, it's always gonna be taking away things, and and people never get back what they've   lost right now because we don't know how to reverse it. We don't even know how to stop it. The the research is starting to show people how to slow it down   for some people.   And that's confusing too because   different   types of ALS respond to different treatments   just like cancer.  

So it's hard with the research when we don't even know enough about   what the different forms are to be able to evaluate. Well, is this a significant result or not? It's helping some people. Is that just random, or is it a certain subgroup? And   what subgroup? And how do we figure out which people this treatment is going to help? So it's still a hit or miss. They do have a few treatments that they use on everyone,   and   they do slow down the disease for some people,   but not for everyone because   it's probably not the right treatment for the people it's not working on.  

[00:26:03] ODELL:

Fair enough.   So is that almost more of a broad basket,   kind of diagnosis,   a group of   diagnoses?   Yeah. Yeah. I mean I can't even imagine that I mean that sounds particularly brutal, the slow grind and the loss   of of control.   Particularly   yeah. I just in general, that's just that's just really horrible.   So this running Bitcoin initiative that you do, I mean, the expectation is that people should be   running anywhere. Does they don't we're not all are we all meeting in a specific location, or we Oh, this is run where we are? Great question.  

[00:26:46] Fran Finney:

It it's called the, it's a running Bitcoin challenge. You can find out, about it through, running bitcoin dot us which is a a site that,   is for the challenge. But it's it's global. We're not focusing on an area. People can run, walk,   do whatever they want.   And and,   any donations   are appreciated.   And the donations are all going to   ALS Research.   And in in   fact, we're we're doing this challenge   with the help of the, ALS network.   And,   I wanted to mention that because the ALS network set up a a special fund   just for   not for the challenge and people can also, donate to that fund separately of the challenge. And it's, there it it's,   the name of their the fund is this, the Hal Finney   ALS Research Fund.  

But,   it's a 100% of the donations are going to ALS Research. So I'm really grateful   that people do that. And I'm actually able to,   oversee   where the donations are going so that I'm gonna be able to look at the potential   research projects and help, evaluate which ones would be good for that.   I like that. I I don't I'm not a scientist I'm not currently a research scientist but my background in education was in neuroscience. I I was in a doctoral program there so it's kind of,   I do have   background in that area and   I can be pretty critical sometimes in looking at research projects   and verifying that they are in fact   reasonable and going in put in areas that are gonna be useful and helpful and productive.  



[00:28:45] ODELL:

That's really wonderful.   I mean, specifically especially the 100% pass through is incredibly important. There's so many charities,   that take,   significant operating costs out of donations.   Fran, so I was trying to explain this to you earlier before we started,   but this is a a a live chat,   that shows the Bitcoin network. You know, we're currently at block 858,870,   which is I mean,   yeah.   You know, 800,000   858,008   100 and,   like, 69 blocks since Hal joined the network.   And, we have this live stream here. We have the live chat here where we have a live live audience from around the world. It's powered by a network called Nostr,   which is a censorship resistant,   global,   permissionless   interoperable   text communication network,   similar to Bitcoin in a lot of ways, but in terms of communication. And it has Bitcoin payments built in.  

So people are sending Bitcoin from around the world.   Freaks, to everyone in the audience, you know, if you send bitcoin during this episode, whether it's through these zaps or if it's through podcasting 2.0,   we will be donating   all of those proceeds,   to,   this organization that Fran,   just introduced to us.   So keep keep those stats flowing,   and we will get them to a very important cause.   Fran,   what what do you how do you how do you think Hal would react to,   this being possible, this being   a a thing that's even possible?  

[00:30:29] Fran Finney:

Oh, he would love it. He would love it.   Yeah.   He he was very much for freedom of communication, so the network would be something he would be really enthusiastic about.   And I'm just reading some of the this, live, feedback now, and I just wanna thank everyone for your for your comments and your donations.   I I've mentioned before and I will mention,   here again now that   I think it would be I think there's a   with the fundraising, with the donut with this,   fund that we have, all of this, I'm really   hopeful and optimistic   that the Bitcoin community can be   a fundamental   part,   really key in finding a cure for ALS and and how it would sound the   spectacular.  

How it would, of course, be rapturous. He was aware of that, if that his the Bitcoin community,   which is a result of something that he helped to to,   fund to   to create in a sense,   were the ones that   were fundamental in finding this cure.   It'd be fantastic.   It'd be amazing. I hope  

[00:31:48] ODELL:

we can I hope we can do that for him, and I hope we can do that for you? We see the donations rolling in.   Pretty beautiful to see.   Fran, we have a question from the audience. And obviously, Freaks, as always, feel free to put your questions and your comments   in the live chat.   If you are watching this on YouTube or Twitch,   the Nostril live chat is at sidildispatch.com/stream.   And you don't need Nostril,   to join us. It can just quickly make you an account with no personal information required.   We have,   Lionel Coinbank   asking how does Fran want Hal to be remembered?  



[00:32:32] Fran Finney:

I want them to be remembered as,   a person who   wanted   who who trusted the world, who who believed in the good of people,   and was enthusiastic   and and optimistic that if people had freedom,   they would choose to do the right thing all the time.   He he really was that way. It was it was amazing to to be with him, but I'd like him to be remembered that way as as   someone who   believed that if people were given the tools   and the freedom,   the world would be better   and the world was gonna be a great place.  

[00:33:15] ODELL:

Let's cheers to that.   I kinda have a question from left field.  

[00:33:23] Fran Finney:

Yeah.  

[00:33:24] ODELL:

So one of the first thing so,   you know, how was before my time I   started paying attention to Bitcoin in, like, 2013,   and, unfortunately, we shortly lost them shortly after   that.   But,   he he was famously cryogenically   frozen.   What's what's the deal with that? Like, what is what is that situation? I mean, I remember, like, first reading about it, it's like, we're gonna   can we can we bring him back? Is, like, how does that work?  

[00:33:56] Fran Finney:

Yeah. Okay. That's that's a good question, Matt.   I think   one reason why Hal   wanted to be cryogenically   frozen,   he was a futurist.   As I said, he believed in the good of people and the good of the world, and he really believed that the future that the world was   improving   and that the future was gonna be this amazing place. So he did look forward to that.   I think prior to getting,   ALS we had already signed up for,   cryogenic,   preservation.   Didn't really intend to use it for a very long time.   And I wouldn't say that Hal   at the point where   he   was frozen,   had a lot of faith that at that time, the technology was   gonna work enough to bring him back. But he he said, even if there was a point 1% chance that it would work,   it was better than 0.  

So we did go ahead and,   work through it.   The process itself   was pretty   intense. I he was frozen at a,   with Alcor.   They're located in Arizona.   And   we flew him out,   on a   medi helicopter.   And,   then   because at that point, he was on life support, we couldn't send him any other way. I went with him and and the kids,   the family, some of the family joined us out there. But, I remember the process itself   because I   was   I didn't wanna leave him. I wanted to make sure that everything went the way it was supposed to. So I stayed with him, and we took him off of life support.   Would you like me to describe that whole situation, Matt? Because it was pretty, intense. But I mean, if you're open to it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm open to it if anyone's interested.  

I don't know how interesting that is. But   the,   in Arizona, they don't have a   you're not allowed to have,   to ask to for end of life. So we had to wait for how to   die on his own once we took him off life support. And we did take him off life support, and the doctors predicted it would take 10 minutes for him to die.   But it didn't. It took,   38 hours,   which was crazy because he wasn't breathing and he turned blue and his oxygen was down to, like, 20%. And I was freaking out. I wouldn't leave the room.   And they took him off the oxygen monitor because I was   I was going crazy.  

I I but I I stayed in the room with him and eventually he did his heart did stop.   The the man was so stubborn to stay alive regardless of   of the fact that it was breathing. So there's this blue, blue body with a heart still beating.   But anyway,   his heart eventually stopped and then we took him into Alcor and I watched the whole process   And it's quite an involved process but I stayed with him because I just wanted to make sure that they   did everything,   in a really   scientific and methodical way. And they did. They had doctors there and they,   and it was very,   organized and they   did went through a lot of different steps to make sure that they minimize the damage to his blood vessels and, like change. They had to cool him down to a certain temperature and change the fluids   through IV. And so it was quite   quite intense.  

But,   he's there now.   And hopefully,   at some point, we'll have the technology to not only   bring people back to life, but to cure ALS because,   those   there wouldn't be any   point in   bringing him back   unless they could also reverse the damage that was done   to bring him back that way too.  

[00:38:18] ODELL:

Was there was there any thought,   I mean, as a futurist and   was was there any was there any thought there in terms of   as an aspect of contributing to research   in terms of the the freezing, or is is that completely unrelated?  

[00:38:39] Fran Finney:

I think that's unrelated.   The way that the freezing is done,   they don't really go back and   do anything with the preserved bodies right now there.   And, hopefully,   at least I don't think Hal wanted to be a guinea pig to be woken up   just to see if it would work. That's fair.  

[00:39:00] ODELL:

Yeah.   Is the   how does but do you do you pay rent or is it just prepaid? Is that a ridiculously insensitive question?  

[00:39:10] Fran Finney:

Yeah. No.   We had to we had to,   sign up for life insurance.   And the life insurance,   was   like a high level life insurance, which goes a 100%   towards   that Got it. Organization.   And so we did that.  

[00:39:29] ODELL:

That's fascinating.   I mean, it's it's it's horrible what you went through, but that aspect is has always been incredibly fascinating to me.   So that's why I just wanted to touch on it briefly.   And in in terms of the   I mean, I I would just say to the audience, like, you should look into   the rabbit hole that is the end of life care in this country and globally.   And it's   it's miserable, regardless if it's ALS or something else.   A lot a lot of I try and stay in my lane in terms   of focusing on Bitcoin stuff and recently more nostril stuff, just FreedomTech in general. But   a lot of changes need to be made in terms of end of life care and what rights people have and how that is all handled because it just leaves families in just a horrible situation. It leaves people who are   suffering in a horrible situation.  

It's quite a low bar,   in terms of   improving the status quo because as it currently stands, it is just miserable.  

[00:40:33] Fran Finney:

Yeah. I completely agree.   Duh.  

[00:40:39] ODELL:

Okay. Well,   we have,   a little bit more time together.   And then,   Alex Gladstein from the Human Rights Foundation will be joining us for a little bit,   and we will be talking about   your latest initiative in in partnership with him.   But, Friix, keep the questions coming in. Keep keep the donations coming in. It is appreciated.   And we thank you all for joining us.   I mean, Fran, like, what is let's let's go into, I guess, let's go into your life a little bit. I mean, if you feel comfortable sharing.   Like, what do you,   you know, I I   what are what are what do you enjoy now? Like, what are what are your focuses? What are you like, what are your hobbies? What do you  

[00:41:28] Fran Finney:

Yeah. Okay.   Now   I I think   what   it's it's I mean, one of my hobbies has been not really a hobby, but my drive for   this,   the promises I made to hell and   the fact that   I really,   he he   I promised him that I would   continue to help look for a cure for ALS because he didn't want anyone else to have to go through when he went through. So that's one of my hobbies, is spending a lot of time   on that in that arena.   I have dogs.   Hal and I both were big,   animal people.   Hal was a I knew it. Was a huge dog person.   I think people probably have noticed that from different things that have floated around online, but,   we all he and I   had dogs, and along with our our family,   and Hal used to always take them running. And,   he had his he once he started working at home remotely, he always had his animals in the house with him.  

I have one memory of how   with the dogs   where   he   hit one of his dogs was getting older. This is pre ALS, but the dog liked to have   Hal hold a bone or a chew toy for him while   the dog chewed on it. The dog didn't wanna bother with,   this was,   Arky. People might know about, might have seen Arky out there,   but Arky didn't feel like he wanted to hold the bone for himself. So he could walk over to to Hal, who would be at the computer typing away,   and he dropped the bone over by Hal, and Hal would pick the bone up with his left hand   and hold the bone with his left hand and continue typing and coding with his right hand while he held the bone for Arky.  

I'd walk by, and I'd seen Arky sitting on the floor eating the bone, and Hal sitting there in the computer typing with one hand, holding on to the bone with the other hand. So that was kind of that kinda cute.   Arky Arky was like Hal's dog to the end.   He he hung around, and I was really worried about what he was gonna do if he outlived Hal, but he didn't. He passed away before Hal did. So  

[00:43:43] ODELL:

What kind of dog was Arky?  

[00:43:45] Fran Finney:

Arky was a Rhodesian Ridgeback.   Oh, wow. Good runner.  

[00:43:50] ODELL:

Really good.  

[00:43:51] Fran Finney:

Yeah. Big   dog. Big lazy dog.   I love dogs. Did you guys you guys had a lot of dogs? Or We usually had 2 at a time. 1 would be Hal's and one would be Vine.   I have 2 dogs now.   So the first dog that I got after Hal passed away, it took me a while, but,   we I had the one dog,   Elsa, who was also a Ridge Ridgeback, and she   passed in 2016. And then I guess a few   no. No. It was later than that. But she passed in 2019.   And then in 2020, I got my first   replacement dog. And I named this dog this is Amy. I named this dog after,   Hal's childhood dog who was named   Amy. So that was kind of, so that's my Amy and I have a second dog now too. So  

[00:44:39] ODELL:

Yeah. I will I will say as a,   we have 3 dogs in my family and the jump from 2 to 3 is is quite significant in terms of   in terms of energy consumption.   But that's wonderful. I mean, I I love this going down memory lane. What other   what other memory when you think about how, what other memories do you have   that you could share with us?  

[00:45:07] Fran Finney:

I I guess the other thing besides how being a coder and being on the computer, is it just how he always wanted to be doing a whole bunch of things all at once. It seemed like he had multiple projects going on. Oh, he loved to take the kids hiking.   We would,   take the dogs and kids hiking. It was like a big family thing. Every if there was a weekend   and we weren't doing something, he had to figure out something that we could do. Go to the museum, go hiking, take the dogs out somewhere.   And if no one wanted to do anything, then he was gonna go out and do something.   So   he was just,   mister I need to be busy doing 5 or 6 projects at once.  

He also liked animals in the house. So I remember at one point between before we got the Ridgebacks,   we   we   one Ridgeback   had   we had labs before the Ridgebacks, and and both labs had passed. And   all of a sudden, Hal didn't have dog in the house, but we did have   rabbits   and we did have   chickens. So Hal decided that while he was working at his computer, he needed animals in the house. So he started letting the chickens in the house.   And so, yeah, so this is a great thing because,   Hal would be at the computer and the chickens would perch up on the sofa   inside of the house watching him on the computer and that made him happy because he now had animals watching him. But what I didn't like was that the chickens, while they were perched on the sofa, were also,   I don't know what you call it with chickens, but, you know,   pooping   behind the sofa.  

So it was always a big mess. And then one chicken,   we had roost a rooster too, and one of the chickens   happened to get pregnant and had some fertile eggs, and she wandered off and she laid some   she created a little nest in in the corner somewhere. And we didn't even know about it till all of a sudden we heard some noise, and there was a little nest, and there were little chicks in there. And this chicken was in there,   with them.   I have pictures of the of the chickens and the chicks that are in the house.   So, yeah, animal person for sure.  



[00:47:18] ODELL:

Yeah. That's an understatement.  

[00:47:24] Fran Finney:

Yeah. He wasn't as you can see, he wasn't a cleanliness freak at all. So we could have animals running around. We could have chickens and rabbits in the house, and   didn't matter.  

[00:47:35] ODELL:

That's I mean,   yeah. That that was not the story I was expecting. I don't know what I was expecting, but,   it's kind of wonderful. I mean, the the chicks the chicks getting laid in inside and you finding out when you have new chicks is, something else.   I,   and and you   I guess, were you just you were reluctantly along for the ride in the   indoor chicken expedition, or were you a active participant?  

[00:48:03] Fran Finney:

I was   reluctantly along. I didn't I thought they were cute, but I didn't like the mess.   So   so   I would have to say, you know, supportive and that I wasn't gonna I if I had said how we can't do this,   it would have stopped. So, you know,   it it I was supporting him, but I wasn't super thrilled.   It was just that I thought it was I also thought it was kinda cute. So  

[00:48:33] ODELL:

Fair enough. And you, you had mentioned that that was beef it was you were in between dogs. It was between the labs and the and the Ridgebacks. Ridgebacks.   Because otherwise, the dogs wouldn't allow that to happen. I Correct.   Correct. My dog my dogs would not allow chickens in the house. They would put Yeah. No. No. No. We had to keep the chickens safe.  

[00:48:53] Fran Finney:

We that's the thing. That's while the dogs were alive, the chickens were around too, and we even had ducks at one point, but   we had to keep them we had to keep them penned away from the dogs because the dogs would have had a good time   playing with them like they were stuffed animals,   and that wouldn't have been ideal for the   birds. So   for the poultry.  

[00:49:17] ODELL:

So, Fred, I mean, you mentioned you mentioned hikes to the family,   and then, I mean, in a way that respects their privacy,   obviously.   You know, I recently   We recently had our first child.   And,   well, my wife did, and I helped her along in the process.   And it's just really been the most beautiful, exhausting   experience I've ever,   been a part of. I mean, it's completely changed my life. Do you have any   privacy preserving memories of how as a a father you could share with us?  

[00:50:01] Fran Finney:

Just that he was thrilled to be a father. He was he was a good father. I think,   we were a good   parenting   couple,   but if one but I would say that   Hal was   50% of it for sure. In a lot of parenting   couples,   the wife might take more   time, take more responsibilities,   spend more time with the children.   And   I think that if I were to ask my children, they would say that that their dad   was at least   as involved as I was. We were both working,   but we were both also there. We managed to split our hours so that   at one point, when I was a physical therapist,   I would work I would leave the house early while the kids were still in bed. Hal would get them up. He would give them breakfast. He'd take them to school.  

He would get to work,   and then I would be this was before he was remote. They were little, and he was had to drive to work and actually work at an office.   And, and then I would be done with my work and pick them up from school, And then he would come home, and we would both do things together. So we were   both involved that way. And Hal was the one who did all the exciting things. He said, hey. Let's go to the museum.   Let's do this. Let's do that. I was the more more of the boring parent, I would say.   Hey. I wanted to say before we get our before,   Alex joins us, I did wanna   get back just a minute to, the the running Bitcoin challenge because I didn't talk about it too much, Matt. Let's talk about it. Yeah. I just wanted to   because, one thing that is that we are looking for we are looking   for anyone who wants to be a corporate sponsor if they want to to to check out the, running bitcoin dot us because,   it it   that's appreciated. And I know the members of of the committee,   are actively looking for that. I have an example on the back of my shirt. It probably doesn't show.  



[00:52:08] ODELL:

Let me I'll make you big.   Oh, wow. That's wonderful.  

[00:52:14] Fran Finney:

So those are last year.  

[00:52:17] ODELL:

Got it. Yeah. And so is is there, like, different how much does a sponsorship cost? Are there different levels? I assume all the money goes to ALS Research. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I would say just go to the website,  

[00:52:29] Fran Finney:

running bitcoin dot us, and they have all the info there because I'm not the expert on that. But   I I think it can be any level, and I don't know what the levels  

[00:52:40] ODELL:

are. And is is as is it only Bitcoin companies that,   support you? Or is it you have have you had non industry  

[00:52:48] Fran Finney:

I assume you've had non industry businesses support as well. Right? I think this one is pretty much Bitcoin, but again, I'm I'm not sure.   We've been   one of the things is that we accept we do accept donations   in in,   US funds or other funds as well as   as Bitcoin,   but,   we do   get a lot in Bitcoin. And,   I I think,   that   the ALS network, which is a group that I'm working with, they were the first and maybe still   they were the first group to to start accepting. I know that to accept, any kind of cryptocurrency,   and they're specifically Bitcoin. So   that's Yep. Something. Yeah. There's some sort of yeah. Is there so we can run, we can donate.  



[00:53:41] ODELL:

If we run a business or   or for individuals, we can donate and and contribute that way. Yeah.  

[00:53:48] Fran Finney:

What else can we do? Is there anything else? Also, is it if they're interested in just being enthusiastic and and,   spreading the the, news   and running, that's possible too. And there are actually runs throughout the year   that, some of the people are are   team Satoshi and some of the other, groups are doing just,   to   celebrate   the running Bitcoin. And and so it's that's even possible. So just actively participating   either   the,   activity,   donations,   just spreading the word that   this is a way to   maybe try to   come together and find a cure for ALS.  

[00:54:34] ODELL:

Wonderful.   That's great.   I,   you're really committed, friend. I mean,   I mean, I I   it's been a it's been a decade, and you're upholding you're upholding how's   how's the last request to you,   in in a way that I think most people would,   to a level that most people would not. I mean, you are incredibly committed, and and it really does show. So,   you should be you should be very proud. You should be there's there's there's many of us that have   have   have watched you,   just really lead the charge, and it's it's been incredibly impressive. I mean,   when your team first reached out about this conversation,   it was just an immediate yes. I I am incredibly   impressed,   by your dedication.  

So thank you.  

[00:55:39] Fran Finney:

Oh, of course. Of course. I'm I'm just,   like I said, I I I've been   very heartened and and   I love the way that oh,   I I, Alex. I've been the whole community, the way the whole community has been so supportive has been really wonderful.  

[00:55:58] ODELL:

We just had, Alex Gladstein, the Human Rights Foundation join us. How's it going, Alex?   Hey. It's going really well. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining us. We've just been Fran's been sharing memories of Hal with us and talking about the fight   against ALS and   reminiscing about the early days of Bitcoin a little bit.   Amazing. But, yeah, it's a it's a pleasure to have you.   So, Alex, I mean,   we haven't talked at all about,   the Finney Prize.   I think this is an amazing initiative   that your your team at the Human Rights Foundation has has been leading.   Do you want to explain to us what this is?  



[00:56:43] Alex Gladstein:

Sure.   Well, so, originally, the idea came because   we wanted to do something   kind of in sync with the having   as a a kind of a global celebration   of Bitcoin's,   you know, incorruptible   monetary policy   as a celebration of something that, you know, finally, we   we can't screw with. Right? We we we humans have a tendency to screw with everything, and,   here's here's our shot at having something that   actually we can't screw with, and it forces us to be better.   So we really like the idea   of trying to optimistically plan for a long term project,   and   we thought that a really neat idea would be to try to honor,   Hal,   with all of his achievements ranging from privacy to   Bitcoin to open source software,   with the prize. So couple of friends of ours put us in touch   with,   Fran and her team, and,   we had a busy couple months trying to figure it out. And I'm very happy   with the outcome. I think the hardest part is obviously   ahead of us,   but I think the launch went well. And,   yeah, I think it's kinda like a nice thing because it's   a bit of a sleeper project in terms of, I think, it, it it it really   gets stronger over time.  

Every 5 years, every 10 years, every 20 years, I think it's gonna become more and more and more prominent, which is which is pretty pretty exciting. Yeah. I mean, that's an understatement. Do you wanna just go through the mechanics of this? Because it's a pretty   yeah. First of all, thanks, to Fran for being open to it. I'm sure it was a little crazy when we first came to her with it, but, credit to her for being excited from pretty much day 1.   So, yeah, so we thought what would be cool was to take advantage of the information asymmetry   around Bitcoin. And,   you know, we have been fortunate enough to   have some donations,   come in   in in Bitcoin   to the Human Rights Foundation   over the last few years.  

And   we thought it would be neat to   kind of work off the one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin mean,   not denominate the prize in dollars,   and simply just give a 100,000,000 sets for every laureate. Now,   the prize, which you can read more about at finneyprize.org,   just to give a high level overview,   basically, it's supposed to go to the person in each having era who does the most for Bitcoin and human rights,   sort of simply. Now there's there's more context to that,   about all the things Hal did in terms of both contributing to code,   contributing to the Bitcoin community,   contributing to,   the world's understanding of Bitcoin.  

So we're probably talking people here who are   a bit of a renaissance   man or woman or group potentially   who are doing a bunch of different things, like Hal, probably,   who are contributing different ways. But the general idea is, like, someone who's really got that cypherpunk ethos,   cares about privacy and individual liberty.   And Hal was the obvious choice for the 1st era, which, you know, essentially was from from inception until 2012. Right? So first prize,   went went to Hal.   The Finney family decided,   to direct the monetary   portion to to a deserving participant, which   which is,   I don't know if, Fran, you've already touched on that or or should we we I assume you've discussed that. Right?  

Given the 28th?  

[01:00:30] Fran Finney:

No? Yeah. I I did sort of I I didn't I didn't I was holding off on talking about the new Freedom Price, so I talked about Perfect. The, about the I'll I'll I'll let you  

[01:00:40] Alex Gladstein:

I'll let you add color to that after my overview.   But, basically, we've already started something amazing with the first prize, which is super, super cool and beyond any of our expectations.   Now there's,   we had brought on Aaron von Werdum for   sort of historical technical   consulting and support,   in the inception of the prize, and he actually became part of the prize committee, which I'll which I'll discuss in a second.   But we actually so we figured out there's, like, 33   changes to Bitcoin monetary policy,   from the beginning. So from   50   Bitcoin,   per,   block all the way down to 0.  

The final halving will actually cut, from from 1 satoshi   to 0, so that counts. So there's there's 33   awards   that will last until   somewhere around 21, 38, or something like that. So it's a long term prize that will outlast us, which is a lot of fun.   And every single,   recipient, every every 4 ish years, it's not it's not really in fiat time, but, basically,   every,   what is it, Matt? How many blocks   in a in a in a having era?  

[01:01:53] ODELL:

You're you're putting me on the spot.  

[01:01:55] Alex Gladstein:

I'll just figure it out. Hold on.   We've gotta have somebody in the comments. 21 220   22   21   210,000.   Okay.   200,000 Like the half hour. 210,000,   of course. 21. 210,000 blocks. So every 210,000 blocks, they'll be,   a laureate,   like a Nobel laureate, basically.   Now Hal won the first one again. There'll be 32 more. So you go to finneyprize.org,   you can see we've, you know, held them all, and we have all the block heights for each one.   The statute, which you can look up the details of the prize,   it's on the website for maximum transparency.   There could be as many as 2 laureates in a having earring, in which case they would split the monetary award,   50,000,000   sats each. And, again, the award can be a person or a group.  

And, essentially, what we wanted to do was,   you know, try and empower a group of individuals to really do all the work,   and,   you know, not disassociate   ourselves, but but at least provide accountability   so that we weren't just, like, deciding who it should be.   So the way we did this and and,   Vittas Zeller was was key in helping figure this out, and he's also on on the committee for the first,   we call the genesis committee, was was creating a committee of people.   So if you look on the website, you can see 7 people.   7 individuals   who make up what we're calling the genesis committee. So so this committee is helping us figure out how to bootstrap the project. Right? Because we're already in 2024.  

Right? So we've already seen a number of havings.   So we have to kind of seen 4. Yeah. We've seen 4 havings. So Yeah. 2012 is handled. That was that's that that price will has gone to hell. 2016,   we're gonna find out, every, running Bitcoin day for the next few years, you'll you'll get another. So so 2012 to 2016, we're gonna find out this January,   on 10th on 10th   it will be released.   There was a really nice animated video that I encourage people to watch that explains how's life at finneyprize.org.   We'll do   thank you. We'll we'll do a not quite as ambitious, but we'll do a we'll do a version of that for each laureate.  

So we'll have something like that, a modest ceremony, you know, how it wasn't until, like, you know, giant, you know, physical parties. So so we'll do a modest online announcement with a video, and that's about it, and there's a monetary prize. So there's no, like, requirement for somebody to do anything. There's a physical award too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll get to the physical award. But,   no. No. It's there's a lot of pieces. It's fun. So, essentially,   the the committee,   what they'll do is they'll they'll they'll submit to the Finney Family and the Human Rights Foundation,   five   nominees   privately,   and they'll rank them. Okay? And then we will we will choose from that list.  

They their job the committee's job is to give us that list, I believe,   I think we said 21 days.   It's it's something like that. But, basically, let's just say December. So we basically have a month or so to think about it, and then,   I believe it might be 21 days, but something like that. So, like, mid December, we'll get the list. We'll have a couple weeks to think about it, and then we'll name the person. Now to add accountability and power to the group, to the committee,   we will publish the ranked list afterwards.   So, for example, if, like,   we don't choose the top, somebody from the top 1, 2, 3. I mean, it starts to get you know, people will have questions, and   the the sanctity of the prize gets called into question. So it's it's kind of a nice way of, kind of giving accountability   to the people running it. Do you see what I'm saying? Like like So the the committee is giving you 1 through 5, and then your team is choosing We're gonna choose   somebody from that ranked list, but it's ranked.  

And then   on the day that we announce the laureate,   we will also publish the ranked list.   Got it. So it'll be kinda like your nom you know, it is like you're nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. There's hundreds of people nominated. There'll only be 5 people nominated or 5 groups   nominated, each each having. So even being nominated, I think, will be quite something.   But to be clear, being nominated won't be something,   you know, endorsed or condoned by the Finney family or HRF. It's it's an independent committee. We'll choose 1,   And that's sort of the deal. Now there's there's other details, but that's sort of the idea. Now here's the here's one of my favorite parts is that, well, how do you ensure that a 100 years from now,   the the committee will retain some of its intellectual philosophical   commitments.  

Well, the idea is once the genesis committee's done its job,   which which which will be complete,   by by 2028   so essentially, the idea is 2012 to 2016 gets announced this this coming year, 2025.   Then 2016 to 20 gets announced, 2026.   Then   2020 to 24   gets announced, 2027.   And then we're on track. So then, like, we're not gonna be running Bitcoin. The having. Yeah. Then we've caught up, and it'll be 2028 having.   We'll go 2024 to 2028.   This is And then we're just and then we're on. So it sort of bootstraps in the same way Bitcoin bootstrapped where the first   4 years you get a lot of, kind of heightened attention and awareness. And then after that, it's just every 4 years, like like, per per the book.  

And the cool part is once the genesis committee is done,   they will name they will each name a successor. Now, of course, we have to approve that, but, you know, chances are we will. So the point is that successor   is the person that that person on the committee deems as a spiritual successor to them in terms that they think the same way. They they have the same values. And then each having era,   each each individual person on the committee will name their successor. So essentially, you'll get this unbroken chain of philosophical,   agreement over a century is the idea. And that hopefully will hold the committee   intact in terms   of what we want. That's the idea. And we we obviously were very careful with the first committee   appointing a genesis committee that was truly global   and that comprised individuals of different walks of life. Right? So in there, you'll see historians,   core developers,   cypherpunks,   investors,   philanthropists,   activists,   educators. So there's, like, one kind of type of each person that's important to Bitcoin.  

And they come from different backgrounds, different parts of the world, different perspectives.   So we're really bullish on this committee, first of all, doing a pretty good job for the first couple of havings and then also setting the groundwork for,   hopefully, the next 100 years. And who knows what will happen? But   but that's the idea. Now the prize itself is 2 components. It's a it's a Bitcoin.   And people can today, they can go and,   go to finyprize.org,   and they can see they can they can look up Donoblock Explorer, and they can see the 32 Bitcoin. We put a little extra in there.   Even some might say a lot extra. We we added an extra 10,000,000 Sats just to,   ensure   that we can cover fees. I mean,   I'm someone who sort of believes that in Sats terms, fees won't be too crazy. Yeah. I think in dollar to dollar terms, they're gonna get nuts. But I I think that,   I think that, hopefully, this covers it.  

But we're gonna we're gonna we we have lots of time to figure this out in terms of how to make this cool and make it make it fun and keep it with technology   as it grows. Like so for example,   there's ideas of, like, while in the first 4 to 6 years of the project,   you know, let's say between now and the end of the cent the decade,   maybe there's a way where we move because right now, it's all and it's just like UTXO. Right? Yeah. It's pretty loud, guys.   Yeah. So maybe we move them into 32   while fees are low, and then maybe those can even be open dime style type things where it's like you you you we don't we're not paying a fee. We're we're we're moving the ownership of the Bitcoin,   physically and potentially in the prize. So this is something we're working with the prize person on. We'll see.  

But Crypto Graffiti is the person the artist designing the prize. It's freaking awesome. It's it's in development.   And the cool part is he's like I was like, well, how do you wanna do this? And he's like, well, I'm not gonna be around in in 80 years, dude. So so we're make he's making all of them up front,   and we're like, we're gonna find, like, a bunker to store them in.   And, they'll be like a little we'll be able to do, like, a little custom engraved plate, you know, that we'll attach   to each person   post that he'll help us with post,   but but the point is all of them are all of them are the design is quite cool. This will be its own little announcement later this year. We'll we'll we'll we'll, obviously, we'll we'll plan to announce the prize itself of sculpture,   and we'll we'll we'll just share information about it and the artist. That that'll probably happen on on running Bitcoin Day. We'll announce that as well, but he's been working hard on that. That's super cool. But the idea in the future of, like, potentially it being a physical   thing where it has an open dime style,   apparatus inside of it is is it is appealing to us. We'll see.  

We also   I will just say that,   we   we arrange it in such a way where, like, I don't really care how much chain analysis you do on that Bitcoin. You're not gonna find any of our donors. Let's just put it that way. So,   so that was important to us as well.   I'm gonna like this now. Go go go wild, baby. Go wild.   But,   yeah, and important to note the first   piece, the first chunk was is already sort of is done separately, so it was never in that UTIXO,   the one that that was meant for Hal. So that's a little that's that's separate. But, the other 32 were in there. You could look it up today. So that's in there.   And look, I I just to conclude, I think it's   it's something that grows in in importance over time. We think one day, it'll be the largest cash prize in the world without question.  

We think that it'll be bigger than the Nobel Peace Prize. We think that,   it is an amazing way to honor hell. So that's that's that's that's the goal.  

[01:12:09] ODELL:

That's dude, that is crazy what you guys came up with over there. I mean, building   a you know, this this massively long,   basically   honoring hell,   for for a century plus is,  

[01:12:25] Alex Gladstein:

And the the finite nature, the scarce nature, there's only gonna be 33 peep people or individuals or   there's if the prize ends in 21/38, like, there'll be no more Finney prizes. So that's it's over. It's like a scarce thing.   So, again, it really honors the adoption cycle.  

[01:12:43] Fran Finney:

Wonderful. Love this. I love this.   It's, like, this is, I mean, this is Hal's legacy right here. This is fantastic.  

[01:12:53] Alex Gladstein:

Change the world. So what did so what did we do, Fran? What did you do, Fran? Tell us more about where the first monetary prize is going and what's what's gonna make possible.  

[01:13:02] Fran Finney:

Yes. So I thought about what would   be meaningful   and make the prize meaningful,   doubly meaningful. And so   I   so along with the family's   support and encouragement, we decided to have that the monetary part of the prize donated   as the to the Hal Finney ALS Research   Fund.   So that's actually the first chunk that's going in there. And, that's that's what's starting   that fund that I mentioned earlier. And then from there on out, any the people can funnel things directly into that fund.   So that is happening,   and it has actually  

[01:13:41] Alex Gladstein:

happened. So it it it's So so basically, you've helped launch a new   fund cutting edge research to help fight ALS in house name and memory with this funding. Exactly.  

[01:13:52] Fran Finney:

And, it's so it's great. So like I said, it's a double thing. There's a meaningfulness of the prize itself is incredible.   And the fact that we have this,   forever for the next, till 20   till for the next   30 oh, up 33. 30. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, 33 havings. Yeah. Whatever.   We have And look, we have this going on commemorating   to commemorating how this is impacting the world,   and and giving to people who are utilizing this technology in a way that will impact the world in a meaningful and and,   effective way. And then we also have this first prize going towards finding a cure for ALS.   So, it's it's a double meaningful, huge,  

[01:14:37] Alex Gladstein:

impactful thing for him. And by the way, I mean, it's   aside from potentially, hopefully, the Bitcoin monetary policy, I mean, corruption is impossible to fight completely. So Right. Look. The noble   a 100 years, though, like, the noble the noble peace prize, like,   basically, like, you could argue, but it it it held it together pretty well for about a 100 years before it started to to go south. So so I think I think we can I think it's like we can do it? It's like we could just fight.   Keep these committee members. Just just make just, make sure that these it was the key was make was was was creating a a a first,   a first committee,   that that could that could be the foundation,   for for for for the future. So that that was really the the the goal.  



[01:15:27] Fran Finney:

I think this focus on on on trying to not have this corruption is is huge too, Alex, because this isn't something that I think was big on the Nobel Priests Prize or anything like that. I mean, really, the whole design of the way the intricacies   of the design are are pretty   amazing. And,  

[01:15:47] Alex Gladstein:

what So I'll just I could I could just I also want I just wanted to shout out the people on the committee, so people Yeah. Modeling can see.   So we've got,   Viddis, who obviously is working with Fran and is just super,   dedicated   cypherpunk and is just totally uncompromising   on his values, and I can tell you that for sure. I super respect   him for that.   So he'll give, like, a,   yeah, like, a encrypted heart to this thing for sure.   Gloria Zhao is one of the handful of Bitcoin core maintainers and is, someone who works at Brink to help, support Bitcoin development.   Obi Nwosu is, an entrepreneur who started the the the UK's largest Bitcoin exchange and then later,   founded FETI, which is an e cash project, as well as someone who sits on the board mem board of BTrust, which is supporting Bitcoin development.  

Aaron von Weerdam is a cypherpunk historian. He wrote,   a a great book called the Genesis Book about,   basically, the the prehistory to Bitcoin and and how it's featured in there for sure. So   having someone that knew that history was important.   Lisa Nagat is, the cofounder of Base 58. She was developing lightning on the Blockstream for a long time and now has become,   I think, a really,   impressive,   formidable Bitcoin educator both,   teaching   other developers and also the general public.   The conference she organizes called Bitcoin plus plus is really,   I think, quite cutting edge and and very global,   which is important which was important to us.  

You know, look. We're we're focused on authoritarian regimes, so we're not necessarily focused on western democracies. So it's important to us to have this global aspect,   to that. And Frida Aburaima is on here. She's the founder of the Africa Bitcoin Conference and a,   really amazing activist who's using Bitcoin both logistically   and and sort of ideologically,   in in West Africa and under French colonialism.   And then Ross Stevens,   is on the board as well or on the committee as well. And I I think he comes at it obviously more from the the business business world, but I I think his contributions   sort of speak for themselves in terms of, basically   our understanding of what Bitcoin's gonna do to the world and and his ability to push that lever. So it's a pretty awesome group of 7. That's all I can say.  



[01:18:15] ODELL:

I I mean, I'm fortunate to know all them pretty well personally.   And, you've you've picked you've you've assembled a high integrity,   group of individuals that have a long standing established proof of work.  

[01:18:30] Alex Gladstein:

So Yeah. It's kinda like what's that there's like that joke on social media where it's like, here are the 7 people that, you know, you'd have to corrupt to get me. Right? Well, it's like It's a pretty good selection. Pretty good one. It'd be pretty tough to corrupt these people. So I'm gonna kinda impossible to corrupt all of them. I'm kinda I'm gonna kinda put you on the spot.  

[01:18:50] ODELL:

What what was the reasoning what's the thought behind not just having the committee choose? Like, why is the committee providing a ranked order and then   there's another selection process after that?  

[01:19:02] Alex Gladstein:

It's a great question. Well,   I think at the end of the day, this is a this is something that is administered by the Human Rights Foundation. You know? We're taking all the legal and monetary   risk of,   keeping and storing and custodying the Bitcoin for a century.   That's our that's only that's solely our responsibility   Got it. Got it. And managing   the dignity of the prize. And there's some there's there's some stuff in terms of, like,   you know, we we we also we get this isn't the first prize we we give out. We we give out a, a prize in honor of, a bust of Havel as well.   And,   we've been doing that for,   for more than a decade. We've been doing that since 2012, and we give out a prize for creative descent.  

And,   you know, sometimes things get tough. Like, we we had 1 year, we had a, a Russian,   artist who received the prize, but then wanted to donate   the monetary piece to,   essentially,   say terrorist group, but, like, a violent group in Russia that was killing police officers   as retribution against the regime.   And we were like, no. And and so that that that prize was scratched. So   there's, like, policy considerations that will come into effect here in a very narrow band, but, certainly, any anyone promoting violence is just out.   And then and then there's other there's a few other things. But, like  

[01:20:30] ODELL:

Let's sanctions list or something like that. But, like, 9 times out of 10, it's gonna be the first person.  

[01:20:35] Alex Gladstein:

Essentially, it's gonna be on us. You know, we'll own the the like, when we choose somebody, it's really on us. Now a leaderless 7 person organization that has no legal structure,   I mean, you know,   it doesn't quite it doesn't quite work. But, anyway, that that's that's our reasoning,   for why we wanna keep this in that way.   Yeah. It's also, like, it can't be just, like yeah. That's true that there's 8 people who work at HRF on Bitcoin stuff,   but we're, like, a 50 person organization. So   and we have a board and lawyers and, you know, we we had to this wasn't, like, a little skunk's work thing. Like, we had to get all this approved, and they were like, okay. Very interesting. What happened? Tell me you know? Like, all this. So, you know, for to get all this approved and off the ground was a huge feat by our team, and, credit to all of my colleagues who are not on the financial freedom team for just believing in us and being open minded enough to do this thing. But, yeah, they were basically like, yeah. We we need to reserve the rights to to to to make the final decision if we're gonna be custodying.   I don't know. Do the math on what is 32 Bitcoin for the next century. But In 2138,   I don't know how much that's gonna be. Well, we'll only have to know. We're only gonna have 1 Bitcoin left in 21/38. So be more than the 33 that we currently have. That's gonna be so crazy, the final Bitcoin having. I mean but, anyway, I mean, who knows? We'll be around to see it. Okay.  

Maybe. Hopefully hopefully, our kids our kids will be around to see it. So  

[01:22:03] ODELL:

Wonderful.   Yeah. Thank you, though. I I think that's a great way to honor him. I it's hard to imagine better way. So   cheers to you guys. Absolutely.  

[01:22:15] Fran Finney:

Absolutely. It's like it's actually for me, it's it's given me   so much,   direction. I feel so much   I I can't thank, Human Rights Foundation enough for doing this. I'm I'm so honored. I'm so deeply honored. It gives it gives how   how's life   real   impact and meaning, and I I love that.  

[01:22:39] Alex Gladstein:

Well, we couldn't be happier, and thanks for having us on to talk about this, Matt. Really appreciate it. Yeah. No. I mean, when, FEDUS,  

[01:22:46] ODELL:

reached out to me, like, I immediately   said yes. Absolutely. Of course.   Alex, I I've mentioned this before you joined, but,   we are donating everything that was received, via ZapStream during this,   during the show.   It is looks like it's like a humble 75,000   sats.   So it doesn't quite it doesn't quite hit the same level, but, I guess every every set matters. So   we appreciate you freaks who donated,   Thank you, guys. To this wonderful organization and show.   Fran, I'm not your doctor, but I feel like you've been sitting for too long.  

[01:23:25] Fran Finney:

Yeah. I have the we were talking about my end injury earlier,   Alex. So my wonderful fracture.   Yeah.  

[01:23:31] ODELL:

So Do you Yeah. Thanks. Do you have any final thoughts for our audience, before we let you go?  

[01:23:38] Fran Finney:

Well, I'm just,   really happy that you had me today. And this, gave an upside to this,   kind of grim date.   And, Alex, thank you so much for joining in and filling in because, I   I can't say how much that has added to everything here.   And thank you, Matt again. I I mean   and audience,   once once again, Bitcoiners, I'm hoping that we can get together and make a difference in the world, and it's a good difference.  

[01:24:09] ODELL:

We're gonna change the world for the veterans, give it for Hal. Exactly.   Thank you, friends. Thank you, Hal. Thank you, Alex.  

[01:24:16] Alex Gladstein:

See you later, freak. Yeah. Take care.