Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 0.1.3

BLOCK: 674925

PRICE: 1776 sats per dollar

TOPICS: practical bitcoin privacy, open source licenses

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

To say what to say. Can you can you explain the move,   over the weekend? Obviously, we've come back now a bit. I don't know if you we were described we did discussing whether we call that a correction. Is 10% a correction in Bitcoin land?  

[00:00:12] Unknown:

You know, Bitcoin's trading like a 100 vol, instrument at this point. So, yeah, 10%,   I guess, is within the one standard one standard deviation,   up and down move these days.   Listen. You know, the stimulus checks are coming. People are excited about that. A lot of the stimulus checks are going to young people who wanna buy Bitcoin.   But more importantly from that,   in the last 3 months, we've had this secular shift where Bitcoin has become an asset. It's not maybe, it's not, it might be. It's now an asset class.   Cryptocurrency is an asset class. Every bank is moving in. Every tech company is moving in, and all portfolios are starting to move in. And so if you're not long, you're short, And that's just what you see on every dip. There are institutional buyers lined up to buy this thing.  



[00:00:58] Unknown:

So you think this is it you think this weekend was institutions,  

[00:01:01] Unknown:

not retail money? No. This was this weekend was retail. What happens on the weekend is retail gets excited. You can tell because the cost of leverage goes way up on the weekend. And so the base is trading different measures of how expensive it is to get leverage goes up.   Then you maybe one bad story, one nervous,   you know, moment, and everyone stops themselves back out. And so, you know, from Friday afternoon, we're roughly a percent from where we were.   And so if you're a normal market, you come in Monday morning, you roll up your sleeves, and you're like, okay. Nothing's changed.   Bitcoin goes 247.  

And so for the Bitcoiners, it was a big weekend.  

[00:02:15] Unknown:

What is up, freaks? It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.   This is Citadel Dispatch   episode 13,   the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software   streamed every Tuesday   at 21 100 UTC.   Yes. I said 21 100 UTC.   Last week, that was 22100   UTC, but because of this ridiculous daylight savings time, it has switched in the meantime. I do like that better.   It is broadcast through Twitch, YouTube, and Twitter. Thank you for joining us.   To to the freaks that are here live as always,   you make Bitcoin Tuesday what it is,   and then it will also be posted to our podcast feed,   onto Telegram and onto Keybase, where you can download every episode in full   without ads.  

So   with that said,   I'm Matt O'Dell. I'm here with Like Woah. I'm here with   BTC Zelco.   We're gonna be talking Bitcoin privacy. Before I get there, the clip in the beginning of you joining us on the podcast feed was our boy, Michael   Novogratz,   Novo of Galaxy,   Galaxy Digital.   Yes. He's a little bit of a shit corner, but he's joined with Andrew Ross Sorkin,   of CNBC   who is consistently deflated about the rising price of Bitcoin.   Just kind of funny just seeing,   this idea of of the stimulus checks of just sending money directly to people,   being talked about on mainstream financial media   in a way that it's just a foregone conclusion that they're gonna take the checks, and they're gonna put it right into Bitcoin. What a lot of people don't realize is,   in countries in other countries, including Canada, they've been sending them stimulus checks this whole time,   and those people are most likely just putting them right into Bitcoin.  

Anyway, guys,   it's been a crazy week at Bitcoin, and I'm excited to be here   with both BTC,   Zelco, and LikeWoah.   They are most well known   for their work with the Ronin Dojo project.   The Ronin Dojo project is a privacy focused project,   that is focused on the   full node stack of Samura1 Wallet.   You can find them at ronendojo.io.   With that said, I'd like to introduce both of our guests. Let's start with BTC Zelco. Zelco, how's it going over there?  

[00:04:44] Unknown:

Yo. What's up, brother?   It's, it's another good day. I mean, I can't complain. It's funny seeing, some mainstream people finally acknowledge   that, you know, Bitcoin's a thing. So cheers to that as always.  

[00:04:59] Unknown:

What's up, like, well, I saw you disconnect and reconnect a couple times during our intro. I hope everything's alright over there. Let's do it live.  

[00:05:06] Unknown:

Everything's alright, but, you know, I got a paranoid,   browser extension that disables all kinds of scripts, so I had to reload it. You know? But I'm glad to be here. Looking forward to having a chat with both of you guys, and let's do this.  

[00:05:19] Unknown:

Fuck. Yes.   So with all that said,   I guess a great place to start   is   why should people care   about   Bitcoin privacy? And we will start with Selco.  

[00:05:36] Unknown:

Alright. Well, I mean, 1st and foremost, right, like, what is Bitcoin? Right? I mean, it's a public distributed ledger, peer to peer digital cash, but, you know, the different the the   thing that makes it different, right, is   it's a   ledger that's contained of all transactions. Right? So,   versus cash, which is private, anonymous,   no one can track what you do and what you know, like, how you spend it. Right?   So,   you know, if we're trying to get back to the to the main goal of what Bitcoin was supposed to be published in, you know, the white papers,   you know, we need to find a way to operate   in a more private way. And so, you know, if you're not thinking about that, like, you know, of course, there's people that you wanna hold until until the moon. Right? At some point, you're gonna wanna spend. Like, at some point, you're gonna wanna cash out and buy your Tesla or,   you know, buy your your fucking house or your boat, whatever it is. Right? But   if you can't do it privately, you're just gonna get screwed. So   let let's figure that out, and let's figure it out so when people do wanna spend their money however they wanna spend their money, Right? Let's fucking figure that out now.  



[00:06:47] Unknown:

So, I mean, I I think this is something that people don't realize,   or or they they they do realize, but   on places like Twitter where where Nuance is difficult,   we tend to see people fall into these 2 camps,   where you have,   hardliners on both sides. I will never spend my Bitcoin. We have Ray Euro in the comments. I don't wanna spend   And then you have the other side who's like, Bitcoin, the number will never go up,   and it's not a good investment. It's a speculative investment. Bitcoin is meant to be spent, and they're on the exact opposite side.   Really, the nuance is somewhere in the middle. Right? Like, good money should be able to be spent or saved at will with no permission required.  

And with that being said,   you know, if you can't spend something without permission   in the future,   because it's   easily tracked, and as a result, you can be punished for any kind of spending you do after the fact,   then it's not truly censorship resistant in my opinion. So you need to have both.   The value prop of Bitcoin relies on both. It relies on it on an increasing in value, in my opinion, and it relies on the fact that you can spend it at will,   without anyone punishing you for your spending.   Would you agree with that? Would you agree with that, Silco?  

[00:08:08] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, the whole point is, like, if you can get censored,   then,   you know, like, what make what makes Bitcoin different   if other than just being, like, an expensive, like, PayPal or Venmo,   if you go to try it or   Cash App, I'll throw that one out there for you. But the if I can't if I can't send my money to whoever I want whenever I want,   like, the then what's the point? Like, what what is it actually solving? You know, I I'm all forward number. I don't think anyone in the Bitcoin space is upset when the number goes up.   Like, I can't meet like, and trust me. I'm with enough people   that bash on, on number 12 memes. But,   at the end of the day,   everyone here is happy.  

You know.   But, you know, at what point and it was kind of the one of the things that I like to talk about and think about is, like, you know, at what point are we willing to, like, trade,   compliance,   you know, with,   you know, just for the number to go up. Like But is that a straw man?   It is a straw man, but, like, I mean, it's something to think about though. Right? Like, what,   you know, what's what's a line in the sand?   You know, what what's and everyone's line in the sand is different. Right? But that's something that each Bitcoiner should think about. You know, you should be thinking about I mean,  

[00:09:27] Unknown:

I so   not to cut you off, Zelco, but first of all, I mean, but both, both Zelco and Laika become good friends of mine. Laika is part of the New York City Bitcoin community,   so he's he's one of the Bitcoiners that I know in person very well,   which continues a routine of this show where I bring on friends, and I feel comfortable interrupting them. So apologies, Elko, but I did wanna jump in here. Go ahead. Before I get to that, I just wanted to really quick shout out, quinsolo.com.   We did, like, last week when we had Rockstar and Suheb on, we did a a random giveaway when when me and Rockstar were drunk, and I guess he just kind of opted in Quinn solo to give, like, a dope ass flask that was that was, engraved,   or it's, like, labeled. He, like,   he does, like, this really nice   design on top of on top of leather.  

He actually had sent me a flask previously unrelated. So this is not the content or anything, but he actually did follow through on it, and Rad Vladdy won that giveaway of guessing the price. He won by 55¢   with his guess of   $55,000, 555.55¢.   So just to put that all in perspective,   you know, people think Bitcoin crashed. We're basically at the same exact price as we were last   So just shout out to Quincello. I thought I might have had to buy that flash, so I appreciate,   the guys over there stepping in and actually doing it.  

[00:10:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Quincell is awesome. Can I just Yeah? So cut you off since we're friends. Fuck yes. Cut me off. Yeah. No. Quincell is fucking awesome. I've, I've bought stuff from him for a while now, and he's a he's a super,   super dope dude. And,   you guys should definitely check out his stuff. I mean, he's he's   it's awesome. I don't know. I like when Bitcoin is actually, like, try to make things that they enjoy and that they wanna give back to the community. So,  

[00:11:20] Unknown:

check it out. Support him if you can. Yeah. I have a bunch of, samurai, like magnets and stuff from him that are on my on my parents' fridge,   because I I don't have a home, so I just put it on their fridge.   And they prob they have no idea what it is. They just they're like these are cool little ninjas.   So, anyway, sorry for derailing that. I just wanted to make sure I gave him a shout out because I did appreciate him honoring it after the fact even though I'm pretty sure Rockstar just, like, kind of threw him into there.   So I so just to get back to what you said, I mean, I I think it's a false dichotomy. I think it doesn't matter. It's not a question of whether or not someone's going to throw away their principles or number go up.  

I think number go up relies on being able to spend privately.   And I think   whether someone is willing to give away their principles or not is a is a separate subject.   If we if we end up in a situation where you can't spend Bitcoin privately, number will stop going up.   Okay.   Would you agree with that?  

[00:12:21] Unknown:

I mean, I think that that makes sense,   right, in theory.   But,   I mean, like, Bitcoin needs to be spent. If you don't spend Bitcoin, it, like, it doesn't the number can't go up. Right? The the liquidity buys. It's not censorship resistant anymore.   Exactly. You know? But I think Bitcoins that have been around understand that concept of censorship resistance. You know? And and I meet more people now. Like, anytime you're in a bull run, right, you get all the people that if they know that you know about Bitcoin and they wanna find out about it, talk about it, and the only thing they care about is that initial investment. And and, like, that's cool.   Part of me dies inside, you know, because I I give them the pitch on privacy and, you know, and,   censorship resistance   and decentralization,   all the fun stuff. But at the end of the day, like   and it kinda goes I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like, how do you pitch Bitcoin? Right? If you're pitching it on, like, hey. Hold this, and then you're gonna have more money in the end. Right? That's what they're gonna do until that number doesn't until we hit the end of the bear the bull market, and then we get our big pull backwards,   and then they get upset. Right? And then they sell because they have weak hands because they they're not bought in, you know, and that's, I mean, I guess that's our job, mostly your job, Matt.  

But our job is to get to get them to understand the why. Like, why Bitcoin? Like, it's not just a stock, you know, and trying to get people out of that mindset of like, oh, this is this is an investment tool, and this is this. It's like, no. Like, this is money. Like, this is, like,   like, life changing shit that we can actually,   you know, use in the future. You know, there are people in other countries, and that's why it's really cool. Like, the samurai community that's in,   Spanish speaking countries is massive.   And I think that's awesome because they need it. Right? Like, they need censorship resistance. They need privacy.  

Yeah. And so, like, in it, you know, maybe in, like, countries like America where, you know, it's not really people aren't thinking about it. They don't know. It's more subversive   of how   how we're getting, like, spied on and how censorship can happen. You know, it's a it might be a slow,   you know, slow drip,   but, you know, we're seeing it. And, you know, the same thing happens whether it's with guns or whether it's with,   you know, with Bitcoin. But, like,   we we need to be conscious of, like, that fact that Bitcoin is about being able to spend it. You know? And that's why, like, yeah, I'm not a big lightning guy, but, like, I I see the value of it. Right? Like, if it works   if it works and everything's great, you know, like, it's meant as a tool so that you can spend,   that's awesome. I wanna spend my Bitcoin. I wanna be able to put it back into the economy.  

Right? That circular economy is what Bitcoin needs to thrive.   Holding on to your Bitcoin till the end of your life does no one any good.  

[00:15:05] Unknown:

So, I mean,   I cosign your message a 100%.   Very excited.   I'm very excited. I'm very proud of the fact that we have a large amount of Latin American freaks.   I expect there to be a very strong Latin American presence on this show, specifically, so they'll dispatch.   We are gonna unpack your lightning comment in the future. I do already have that on my scratch pad. I think it's kind of funny that the 2 biggest community,   the big 2 biggest subcommunities   of Bitcoin that are focused on spending in a relatively private matter,   tend to not   intermix well.  

And I I do think Lightning is underrated as a post mix tool,   and I think both Lightning people and   CoinJoin people,   I don't know. There's just not that much overlap. We're gonna talk about that. And then one thing before I pull in, like, woah here, I just wanna make clear,   you did mention   you gave me a token,   mention of Cash App when you mentioned all the evil centralized payment platforms.   You're like you're like Venmo, PayPal, and I'll give it to you, Cash App.  

[00:16:09] Unknown:

My my my Cash App is Sickoiner.  

[00:16:13] Unknown:

Well, I know it is. I know it is like well, before I bring you into this, I just wanna make clear Cash App is a sponsor   of Rapid Whole Recap, but they're not a sponsor still of dispatch.   We have no sponsors on this show, and in fact, I do tend to,   when I'm feeling a little bit buzzed in the middle of the episode, throw in a a quick free bisque chill.   And and and to be clear, anyone who's watching the video as they know if they're they're a return freak,   we have the Coinbase Pro price on top, the evil empire, and then on bottom, we actually have the BISK ticker,   which right now is showing a massive   24,000,000   Sats worth of volume compared to the 76 100 Bitcoin worth of volume on Coinbase.  

But we do highlight it here. Like, woah.   Do you believe that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever?  

[00:17:02] Unknown:

I believe it will be. I mean, I'm I'm I'm holding Bitcoin   mostly for my children.   I I'm the kind of person that, you know, like, so I like to spend it too. Everybody needs spend it. We have, you know, we got the huddle game. You know, everybody wants to hold it forever. Right? They don't wanna spend it. Eventually, you're not gonna need to spend it because you can take out loans based on it. Right?   But for me, it's I wanna hold it for, you know, generational wealth. I want my children's children to   enjoy it later on when I'm gone. Because   for me to realize it, they're gonna realize it, not me. I'm not gonna be around for you know, until it gets to that pump that everybody's gonna be like, holy shit. You know, Bitcoin is at 5,000,000.  

So to me, I'm gonna hold that bitch, and I'm just gonna keep holding it tight.  

[00:17:49] Unknown:

So, I mean, Zelco, I haven't met you yet, but I I I don't think,   you have   children yet. I mean, I I think Like Woah is our our family man here.   Like Woah, I'm I'm curious, you know, how do you   did you view Bitcoin? Do you think you view Bitcoin differently from us from us,   you know, not fathers yet?   What's that perspective?  

[00:18:16] Unknown:

No. I think that, you know, people who don't have kids right now,   you know, you guys should think about having kids because, I mean, this is what we're meant to do. We're meant to procreate. Right?   I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, it's too many children, too many people in the world, you know. No. Fuck that. You know? Just   need to   how are you gonna live forever? Right?   You're gonna clone yourself. You're gonna pass on your DNA. That's that's how you're gonna become immortal.   So to me, I think that children are not just only a blessing,   they bring your purpose in life. And, you know,   they're gonna be holding my seats in the end. So   that's the way I see it.  

But, you know, it's very hard for a lot of people. Everybody's, you know, too worried about, you know, their careers. You know, they're thinking, you know, it's not enough time. It's not the right time. You know?   You know, we're too young. We're too young. Just fucking have kids already. That's it.  

[00:19:09] Unknown:

If you don't mind me asking, how many children do you have?  

[00:19:12] Unknown:

I have 3. I have 2 boys and a girl.  

[00:19:14] Unknown:

Wow.   Impressive, dude.  

[00:19:19] Unknown:

Thank you. Thank you.   But in terms of, you know, the, the Spanish community, the Latin community,   they're very, very much aware of, you know,   the the censorship resistant of Bitcoin. And I've been seeing a lot a lot of activity in the Spanish community, especially in the samurai community. They're pretty big right now. And,   once we release, Ronin Dojo 1.9, I'm going to actually be creating a fork   that's going to have a full translation into Spanish for the Spanish community to enjoy.   So that way, it's coming up shortly after the release.   That's awesome. Out there that, you know, that speaks Spanish and doesn't really understand English, we're gonna have a Spanish version of Ronin Dojo.  



[00:19:59] Unknown:

So let's let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, I I think the South South American community specifically, right, they they  

[00:20:06] Unknown:

you you don't have to you don't have to explain the value prop of Bitcoin to them. They already know that they need a better money. Right? Yeah. Then think about Venezuela, how, you know, they their money turned to shit by inflation. Right? I mean, that's that's basically the way that we're going right now with the USD, you know, but it's it's it's gonna take a little bit longer. But, you know, Venezuela, they got screwed over and their money became worthless. And now they, you know, they discover Bitcoin and they have this, you know, this money that cannot be inflated. It's not controlled by their government.   They can transact, you know, peer to peer. They don't have to go through a third party. You know, it's it's it cannot be, confiscated by their government. You know, they cannot be censored. So it's it's it's very much something that they want to start using. And I and I see see this, you know, happening in other countries where, you know, governments are, you know, just having control of people's capitals.  

And Bitcoin just gives people back control of their capital. And this is something   that people in America don't understand so much because, you know, over here,   it's not happening so much as it's happening in other countries.   Right? Where people's, you know, capital gets confiscated or, you know, it gets their their money gets, you know, inflated and it becomes worthless.   So I've seen I've seen a lot of this in in South America. A lot of people in Colombia. A lot of people in Venezuela.   I see a lot of people in in Chile. It's just all over South America and Central America right now is is the Bitcoin, you know, word-of-mouth is going around.  

[00:21:31] Unknown:

Yo. Congratulations to Zelco for figuring out how to get into the YouTube chat.  

[00:21:36] Unknown:

I had to figure I had to do it. There's been a bunch of stuff that I looked at that was awesome that I wanted to I'm gonna comment on, and then we'll come back and talk too.   Oh, and just just real quick before I'll you carry on with the   the Spanish community idea, I just wanted to say that I also am a father, father of 2.   So me and, like, Will actually both had daughters Gotcha. Within, like, 2 weeks of each other.   We call them little Ronan babies,   but, well, shout out to  

[00:22:05] Unknown:

One sentence, I think not. Everything happens for a reason.  

[00:22:08] Unknown:

Goddamn right. Yeah. But Cute. Yeah. Shout out to the wides as well because, like, honestly, like, without without them, like, I I don't know how either of us are doing what we do, but,   yeah, I I also think about it as a future.   So  

[00:22:24] Unknown:

Dude, first of all, congratulations. I didn't know that.   You,   Yeah. I I I   you you have you have good OPSEC in that regard. I didn't I did not realize you were a father.   A lot of respect there. Let's unpack just really quickly. I mean, because I don't think there's enough discussion about this period in the Bitcoin space.   You know, I don't have a wife yet. We are getting married this year. She's she's my fiance currently.   But, I mean, I think the ladies of Bitcoin,   or   well, we have lots of ladies of Bitcoin, but but the ladies of of   of of the Bitcoiners that we know,   they're they're, like, they're leverage long Bitcoin. They're, like, I in some ways, they're more Bitcoin than I am, you know, because, like, I can imagine you decide that you're gonna have kids with someone like me or, like, like, someone like like Lowe or someone like you, Zelco. Like, how how does like, that that that concept, like, you're you're a 100% going you're you're going fucking a 100 x long on Bitcoin,   marrying and having kids with the Bitcoiner.  



[00:23:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I I think it depends on when you get into the Bitcoin game, like, or when you find your person. So, like, your fiancee number 1, congratulations.   Your fiancee has to be all in. Right?   It it depends on when they found you. Right? Like, me and my wife have been together pre Bitcoin. So pre Bitcoin oh, I mean,   no. Not pre Bitcoin as a whole, you know, but pre Bitcoin   me finding out about Bitcoin. So,   and her dad was the one that turned me onto it. So   I think it depends.   And, my wife is I mean, she's, like, part of our team now. You know, she's helping us out with the Ronin side. Like, she's helping us out with, you know, building cases and, you know, putting nodes together, and   I'm teaching her to do QA as we speak. So, like,   yeah, she's   she's awesome. She's all in now,   but it wasn't always the case. It was always it it depended. You know?  

It's kinda hard. It's hard for any normal person to really   grasp Bitcoin and understand   and understand, like, the value and understand, like, that this isn't going to 0 tomorrow. You know what I mean? And I think My my lady survived 2 bear markets before I proposed to her.   See, that's that's a win.  

[00:24:53] Unknown:

Yeah. That's a she's a keeper. She's a keeper. She survived. Bear market?   So many people, you know, their their girlfriends or fiances left them at the bear market, you know, but, you know, they're calling them now.  

[00:25:09] Unknown:

Okay. I love both of you guys. So let let before we move on, let's let's I really like this this South American tangent.   So so,   like, what what's your plan here like? Well,   you know, I I I there's there's been amazing,   you know, you guys know and the freaks know that I've been talking about Bitcoin privacy for 2 years now, at least publicly very hard,   longer than that really, to be honest.   And and and the the main people that pick up what I'm putting down is the Latin American community.   So it makes sense to me that we have large pickup, of samurai wallet down there. Does that change how you view the product going forward and and how you how you or the project going forward? Because Ronin Dojo, we're gonna get into this as a as a free open source project.   It's not directly monetizable. Is is that how like, does how does that affect how you view the project going forward?  



[00:26:07] Unknown:

I think that, right now,   I did not I I wasn't   aware that the samurai community has such a big Spanish   community   until I started to work with Ron and Dojo. And   everybody's so eager in there to   learn. It's incredible.   And the the channels in Telegram are so active. There's, I mean, literally   dozens of people talking at at the same time,   and it's just   huge. And I really want to get more involved and focus more   towards them. So that's why I started out, you know, I I got about 3 guys who basically went and run-in doo doo, and I and I direct everybody to go ahead and just basically   translate all the menus.  

So we got everything translated.   It's just a matter of me just going in there and just merging all their changes into running Dojo.   The future is that I'm going to add   multilingual support on running Dojo. So, basically, it's gonna start out as Spanish,   but later on, we're gonna be able to,   translate into multiple languages. So it's not just, you know, Latin community.   I want to   reach out to whatever other communities out there who are interested in in using samurai,   you know, using Dojo. Whatever it is that we have on there, they want to go ahead and, you know, do translations for us, go ahead and do it. We will upset any pull request.   And the thing is, you know, we want to be able to keep it in the hands and let everybody be able to use it. You know? Whatever language you speak, we're gonna we're gonna be able to let you   utilize it in your own language. So that's one of the plans down the road.  

You know, it's not a priority right now, but because there's other things that need to be done. But that's something that I I feel very passionate about is reaching out to, to multilingual,   countries.  

[00:28:02] Unknown:

I mean, it goes in with, like, the whole open source nature of everything. Right? Bitcoin isn't isolated to, you know, one one country   or one,   you know, one language. So   as we as we move forward, that's obviously the goal. Oh, and, you know, PR is always accepted. I mean, this is,   I know we're gonna get into the whole licensing,   licensing topic, but,   you know, we we really wanna provide these tools for everybody. That's why we started this,   and that's why,   that's why we do it. We wanted to make it easy for anybody and everybody,   you know, at a reasonable whether it's plug and play style or whether it's actual just like, hey. You get your own hardware and you do it. We support multiple different,   actual, like, single board computers, and soon, you know, we'll have the full computer,   the x86 set up. You know, the the whole goal is to provide   an easy   easy experience, and it's just reliable.  

You know? Like,   the the whole idea of running is to just give you the tools that you need.   No more, no less. Give you what you need so you can just sit there and have that privacy and know that back of your mind whenever you're out and about and you're spending in the streets,   hey, my node's running and it's good to go.   So   go ahead.  

[00:29:23] Unknown:

Sorry.   So, I mean, when when I'm when I'm thinking about,   you know, we have all these different full node projects. Right? When I'm thinking about a full node project that has a large subset of users in Latin American country,   I'm thinking of, 3 3 main priorities   that I think you guys would cosign   that that you wanna focus on because,   you have such a large,   buy in, and you have a large user base down there.   The first thing is low cost.   Low cost, just keep costs low and and keep accessibility low. It's hard to bring hardware into a lot of Latin American countries. So you want,  

[00:30:04] Unknown:

general purpose hardware that is cheaply able to obtain and able to to access. Let me add that let me add to that, Matt, if you don't mind me.   Yes. Add. So so once we ask x86 support,   people, for instance, in Venezuela and places, you know, Iraq or, you know, anywhere where it's hard to get a Raspberry PI or, you know, get a single board computer   into the hands of, you know, people.   We they're gonna be able go ahead and run, run a dojo on a virtual machine on their own computer.   So that would be something that they'll be able to do without having to, you know, try to figure out how how they're gonna get their, you know, their own dedicated, you know, computers gonna be running 247.   But in that sense, you know, they're gonna be they're gonna have to, you know, use up a lot of electricity because if you run it on desktop computer, you gotta make sure that it's running 247.  

Otherwise, you're gonna have to wait for the for the blocks to, you know, to catch up and everything. But x86 support, like, so commission,   that's going to get people that that option in in countries where they can't get a single   So so you can just run it on, like, your old laptop or something? Yeah. You can run it on a laptop. You can run it on a desktop. You know, you can run it on, you know, on a virtual machine, you know, or whatnot. Just just, you know, just, the x86 architecture will be supported.  

[00:31:20] Unknown:

Right. So let's   so I I so so number 1 is low cost easy accessibility.   I think that falls into that as well, but but just   it it's it's 2 fold. Right? It's it's making it available for as many platforms as possible, so you have easier accessibility,   and then also making it as as performant as possible so that you could have,   you know, weaker hardware can can can support it.   And then the other two things I would add is is reliability.   You know, if you're if you live in a country with rolling blackouts,   poor Internet connection, that that type of thing, you want,   no funds to be at risk and you want it to still work.  

And then   the the   the last thing I would say is   is privacy by default. So you want a situation where you don't want,   your government to know that you're necessarily running Bitcoin.   You don't you don't want them to realize that you're doing anything   potentially viewed as nefarious,   and it could be life or death for those users. Would you agree with those 3   tenants?  

[00:32:35] Unknown:

I definitely agree.  

[00:32:37] Unknown:

Yeah. And definitely those are all good points.   And, I mean,   the the privacy by default, I mean, that really comes down to how we ship and spend.   I mean, especially for, like, how it's marked, right, and what type of shipping it comes in. So, I mean, that's definitely all in our radar,   if we're doing the plug and play style. But at the same time, if these users have access to any of those and when we have the the x86, I mean, like, there's nothing nefarious with a laptop. There's nothing nefarious with   really a computer, you know, and you'll be able to do that. And then at the same time, you know, like,   you know, you said funds at risk, and that's kinda one of the benefits of, like, you know, if there's a rolling blackout. Right? Like, of course, you know, if we if we had, like, a a even more premium version,   we we can add a a UPS on there, right, so that there's extra power in case that there's a blackout. But it I mean, the beauty of of Dojo and versus   you know, I know we'll talk about lightning in a little bit, but Mhmm. The beauty of that versus,   you know, running a lightning node is I have no channels. I have no funds that are inherently at risk because I have no coins   that are on my Dojo. Right? Like,   I think that's, like, a underrated aspect of   having a Dojo where it provides all the functionality that you need,   you know, but there's nothing at risk, you know. And   even despite that fact, right, we keep we keep our hardware, like, locked down, you know, to   as minimal as possible. Right? It's like, you know, wherever we SSH into   and   the port for   not not even the port for   for the UI. We do that through Tor. Everything else is through Tor. So you have one open port,   you know, and then you have failed to ban. You have everything else. So it's, you know, you're talking about very minimal chance of anything happening. And then if something did happen to your to your box,   what you lose nothing. You lose if someone can dig through your database,   right, something in someone could dig through your database, they can get your ex bulb. That that's, like, the most risk that you run.  

So, you know, I I find it   very risk minimized   and, you know, and it's different, you know. There's obviously pros and cons to running Lightning Nodes,   and I know q and a asked, like, 30 minutes ago about when Lightning on Ronin.   He knows better.  

[00:35:06] Unknown:

You should've made him wait.  

[00:35:09] Unknown:

No. I saw it, and it just made me think. So but, yeah, I, I I think we're definitely all in those steps. We wanna provide any availability.   Like, for anyone to be able to run this stuff, we want it for everybody, whether that's do it yourself and you buy your own hardware,   whether you wanna buy, like, a full, like, the full fucking node and ready for it to be just plugged in, we wanna provide that. We want it to be easy to access for you to just have that privacy oriented node that's just gonna work. And,   I think I think we're we're   almost there. You know? I'm not Southside, New York represent?  



[00:35:44] Unknown:

Alright. So I wanna I wanna, answer a question. Some person said, Embassy is nice. It is all over tour.   I just want I want everybody to be aware. If you're not aware, Samurai Dojo, which, we ship in Ronin Dojo.   It uses Tor by default, so all communications   in the network are go through Tor.   And if and if you have problems with your ISP blocking you, you can set up,   toll bridges. So you can get around all that. Great. I mean, you know,  

[00:36:13] Unknown:

embassy has a very strong community.   They they share that, quality with the samurai guys.   We I am friends with the start 9 guys at over at Embassy.   They are gonna be on the show sometime soon.   So don't worry, freaks. That will happen.   To be perfectly clear though,   tour only is not an Embassy only feature. Pretty much every single full node stack,   every single popular full node stack, whether that's Ronin Dojo,   whether that's Embassy,   whether that's Raspberry Blitz, whether that's MyNode, whether that's Umbrel, whether that's Noddle,   they all pretty much default to Tor now, which is great to see.  

It is kind of a bit of an issue if Tor reliability   is   important, which it is when you're running a lightning node,   and we've seen these Torv three reliability attacks.   Zelco, I did kind of set you up there in terms of I don't think that lightning is ready for   users in adversarial environments such as Latin America.   I   to be clear,   Whirlpool, if you are using Whirlpool, which is Samura's CoinJoin implementation, which I think we're about to dive into,   if you are using that, it is connected to the Internet at the time of usage.   So you are exposing your keys to the Internet, so you do have some   risk. Your funds are at some risk, but strictly speaking,   in practice,   it is significantly less risk than if you're running a lightning hot wallet,   which which require,   basically, to keep your funds secure requires either,   your Internet to stay on   in its entirety or you have a separate device   called the watch tower that has its Internet on its entirety that's watching your channels for you,   to protect you from any kind of malicious actors. So it's strictly superior in that regard.  

Myself personally, Zelco personally,   Likewell personally   have put substantial funds into Whirlpool. I mean, I I know myself. I put substantial funds into Lightning because I'm just an idiot.   And   What do you mean? We we haven't had any loss.   We haven't had any loss. Right? I haven't had any loss from Lightning, and I haven't had any loss from Whirlpool.   So it is what it is in that regard.  

[00:38:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   yeah. I mean I mean, like, losing funds is something different. And I'm sure if we were to pull the entire   Lightning community, I'm sure people have have   lost something of some sort, whether they could recover or not. I mean, our channel's going down or whatever.  

[00:38:51] Unknown:

It Well, the majority of we talk all about this. We talk all about funds lost. Right? And the majority of funds I've lost   have been in fees,   that I've had to pay.   And so so the so with Lightning, I had to learn   that really you wanna have few channels that are large.   Few realize this.   And,   and and you don't wanna have a lot of small channels, especially when fees rise. Even though I expected fees to rise, it still caught me off guard because I need to learn the hard way to be quite honest.   And I think it's important that people do learn by   learn by doing.  

And then, I mean, on the CoinJoint side,   like,   me and the freaks together spent a lot of money on wasabi fees,   and then we had to put them through Whirlpool afterwards. How dare you? So we had to I mean, look look, I   You gotta work. I've repented to the Whirlpool guy.   To be clear, Wasabi was,   in the beginning, more stable even if it was a poor implementation   of corn join. The freaks have heard,   many explanations   of the the the nuances   of of the the the 2 different CoinJoin implementations.   I don't really wanna dig into that. I think,   I think the Wasabi guys have kind of admitted,   that,   their implementation is subpar because they're working on a radically new different implementation,   that has, like, a 14 month expectation to come out.  

So I'd rather focus on   what makes the Whirlpool implementation   of of of ZeroLink,   so   effective   effective and why you think like, let's be honest. Both of you guys have devoted significant   stack.   You know, if you use Samura Wallet, you should use it with your own node. The most performant way to use it with your own node is to use Ronin Dojo. That's what you guys are the lead maintainers of. You're basically wedded yourself to this stack.   You've decided that it is worth your time and energy to focus on improving this stack.   Why is that the case? Why why why should why should people care? Why should people,   you know   why why should people use what you're building?  



[00:41:23] Unknown:

Okay. I'll start, and then, like, well, you can you can   pick me up. So,   I mean, 1st and foremost, right, like,   I'm gonna go back go back in time because,   you know, when this all started,   when when we when I started, me and s 2, Uruguay,   when we started, you know, running it, it was just a bunch of, like, guides and minor scripts.   But we added   a block explorer ourselves. We added, you know, Whirlpool to our stack ourselves.   We added in, you know, Electrum Rust Server ourselves.   And then it it's just it was funny to see the development   of Dojo. Right? Like, the vanilla upstream   that we used. Right? Because now   everybody who just uses Vanilla Dojo, right,   they get the Explorer, they get Whirlpool, they get   an indexer, right, the samurai indexer.  

You know, so it it was just kinda funny to see all that because, you know,   we had a good thumb on the on the community.   And so   when it comes down to that, right, like, we we understand   what normal users want. We're not just some developers up in the ivory tower that,   you know, have no thumb on the community. Right? Like, we understand. Of course, we always get some people that say they want lightning, but I'll say that the majority I would say   the the amount of people that have asked us to implement lightning is,   like, near 0. Like, it's it's a non zero number, but it's it's definitely   very low.  

And   and that's why we focus on what we focus on. You know, the stack is so strong, you know,   particularly Whirlpool. Right? If you're running obviously, like, running your own node. I was telling my wife about this earlier.   If you're not running your own node and your wallet's not backed by your own node,   excuse me,   that means that your wallet is running off someone else's node. Obviously, we know in Samura's case, like, they dedicate one specific,   you know, server   to their to their users. Right?   But, you know, whether it's,   SPV   or whether it's, you know, some other some other form of, like, someone's running a node, and you're trusting those people with your information.  

So,   the Dojo part is just is like the actual node part is, like, more common sense. Right? That's that's how you best control your information.   The second thing is Whirlpool. Having that running consistently,   and I love explaining this to new users. Not only does Whirlpool,   you know, you can put in as many   UTXOs as you want, right, and break that up as much as you want.   So those fees, like, that fee per,   TX 0. Right? You pay, the fee to samurai,   the, the pool fee. You pay that one time on your TX 0. Right? It's not based on,   you know, the amount going in or how many UTXOs. It's based on that one time pool fee. So your fees can get super low based on the amount that you're you're putting in. So if you're smart, you can calculate it out. You know, Shout out to q and a who has a whirlpool stat error whirlpool calculator website.  

But you can calculate it out, and based on the mining pools at the the mining fees at the time and how much, the mining the   liquidity pool fee is. You know, you can you can substantially bring that down.   And then it's it to me, it's worth it because we're doing 2 things. We're paying for privacy. We're paying for service, right, to break all those deterministic links. And I'm also helping support the developers to continue to do what they do   and not ask for handouts, not get VC,   you know, VC funding and then have somebody to answer to. You know, they they gotta do what they want because they have a business model.   So,   you know, that whirlpool is is super important right there, but then having it running 247 in the background,   you know, your anonymity set, even if you're not even if there's no   UTXO spinning, but you leave them in post mix,   you're continuing to add   to that you're you're continuing to get forward looking anonymity.  

So   people looking back at it, they don't know who's UTXOs or whose, and it continues to grow,   you know, as more and more people,   you know, continue to be selected into the pool. So you don't need to get picked. You know, a lot of people misunderstand that fact. You don't need to actually get   25 mixes, or you don't need to get 10 mixes. Like, you could get 3 and just leave it in there, and then you continue to get better anonymity.  

[00:45:57] Unknown:

If I'm some schmuck   if I'm some schmuck and I join join   oh, I'm hearing a little bit echo echo.   I hear you so echo.   If I'm some schmuck and I join,   samurai   if I I join Whirlpool and I do a single I do a single mix, and then I just turn off my phone, and I just never do a mix again.   Those people you do the mix with, those 4 other UTXOs,   those 4 other participants,   of your transaction, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, that's what people don't realize, if they go and do a bunch of mixes, all their coin join rounds are connected to your coin join round. So your potential,   outputs of of which ones could be you   go grows with the amount of times   your participants   end up reentering coinjoin rounds, and their participants reenter coinjoin rounds. So they join a new round, and that round has 4 new people, and those 4 new people go and join new rounds.  

You you go along that tree along with them.   And that's why it's super important that the way ZeroLink is implemented   in in Samurais is implemented in a wholly different way than it's implemented in Wasabi,   where you have   these remixers are re are are it's enforced by the protocol. The coordinator is enforcing it. So it doesn't it doesn't matter.   Yes. Obviously, it it matters in that if we had no one remixing,   we'd all be fucked.   So, like, you should you you should go and remix.   Like, you should do your part and remix all the time, which is what me and Zelco and Mike Lowe do. But   if you don't,   you're getting passive privacy improvement   because other people are. Right?  



[00:47:42] Unknown:

Yep. I like the way you worded that, passive privacy improvement.   I mean, you don't need to and and I think that's probably the best way. I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that for the future.   That's the best way to put it because you really are just, like, sitting there, and you don't need to be in an active mix. And it it goes into one of the ways that I kinda I worked with q and a on one of his guides on, like,   hey. How do we move our our wallet to cold storage? Or I I wanna move my stuff. And so because we get that a lot. You know? I wanna mix 3 times, and then I wanna send my stuff to cold storage or my hardware wallet.   You   know? But one of the best things to do is just take your wallet offline.  

Right? Your seeds are as secure as you let them be, and, yeah, it's not cold storage. It was touched by the Internet.   Yeah. It was touched by the Internet, and that's that's fine. Right? But,   you know, it's you took it offline. You you have to you have to stop the Whirlpool CLI, you know, reset that.   But once you do that, your wallet's, like, no longer on the Internet. Right? So you've minimized the risk, the exposure, but all of your coins   are still in that that equal output.  

[00:48:50] Unknown:

So I will always disagree with you on this sellco.  

[00:48:52] Unknown:

Oh, man. Let's do it.  

[00:48:54] Unknown:

I always so so I agree that if if if you if the issue is an active external attacker,   then then,   obviously,   you don't have that risk once you pull it offline. So it was online previously,   and and then you pull it offline. At least you know if an active attacker decides he wants to attack you, he has to come into wherever you're holding   your private keys and and take it because there's they're not online.   The the the issue is more of   and I guess, like,   the new fudders are calling it,   a retirement attack.   But it it's it's a concern that it's existed for a long fucking time.   And and the concern really is   is someone let's say someone figured out a way to compromise   online samurai keys.  

They've already compromised you and they wait. They wait for those funds to increase.   Right? And maybe individuals   will remove and add and and they'll end up at worse, but but the the attacker in general is looking at a larger and larger base of of funds they can attack. And at some point in the future, they sweep them all even if you're offline.   That attack, you're still susceptible to. So in general,   you're talking basically   between a privacy   versus   security trade off, which is fine, but it's it's a trade off that exists and people should be aware of,   and it's mostly theoretical to be clear. We haven't had a single person,   lose money on a reputable mobile wallet, period, let alone Samurais. But including Samurais,   we have not had a single person lose money on a reputable wallet.  

And there's a lot of irreputable wallets to be fucking clear. Like, if you type in Bitcoin wallet into Google Play Store   or Apple iPhone store or whatever,   there's a lot of shitty fucking wallets that you've never heard of before, and they're mostly scams.   But any reputable wallet, we have not had   any kind of,   you know, remote attack.   But theoretically, you could.   So best practice is to just send it off after you after you do CoinJoin.   And if you and and and and   in general, the practice should be, you leave it in Whirlpool for a while because the remixes are free, and you're adding a bunch of entropy because,   you know, not only are other people adding to your   anonymity set because they're coin joining again, but you're also adding to everyone's anonymity set because you're coin joining again. So you do that for a bit. And then the cool thing about   Samurais is when you send out,   you either send out as a fake 2 person coin joint or a real multi person coin joint.  

So you're either the fake one is called Stonewall,   and the real one is called Stonewall times 2 because you have at least 2 people. Easy to remember.   So it doesn't kill the anonymity set of everyone else. Right? Like, when you when you talk about Wasabi, if you send out from Wasabi in that situation,   you're basically proving, okay, any UTXOs that send out from Wasabi at this point are controlled by the same person. But you send out from Samurai and   you don't you don't know. It could be 2 people. It could be 3 people.   Ideally,   we could end up in a situation where you can use Soroban to do, like,   a 5 person Stonewall times 5 or something,   where, like, 5 people leave. Like, that that's the future they're moving towards. Right?  

And and and and we could have simulated fake 5 person coin joins as well. Like, you have real 5 person coin joins and you have fake 5 person coin. Like, you can do that shit.   Yeah. So, I mean, that that's the package we want to be in. That's the situation we wanna be in. I don't think we should,   yeah, I I I I just I think the majority of funds that people hold for long term should be on keys that have never touched the Internet, period. And I'm a hardliner on that, and that it is what it is.  

[00:53:00] Unknown:

Okay.   So, I mean, I'm   I'm fine with that. Right? I'm fine with the idea of having   a,   a savings.   Right?   Savings versus a, you know, a spending.   I don't my my only issue and, like, I'm not I don't disagree with pretty much anything that you said. There's obviously threat models to everything. And that and that was one of the one of the points that we bring up in his article   is that it is a threat model. Right? It's a warm wallet, not a fucking cold storage. Once you take it off the end, it doesn't make it cold.   You know? But at the same time,   I don't think that a majority of people,   and I I don't wanna go into your multisig rabbit hole, but I don't think that   I don't think that the average user or even a mid like, I'll venture to stay the majority of the freaks,   that are consistent listeners   appropriately   take those actions and, like, appropriately   know how to use   this isn't all of them. Just saying that they're I would say that not everyone knows how to do it the right way, and they might think that they have cold storage where they never touch the Internet,   never,   you know, didn't do any of the any of the things that would have risked their their security,   you know, I don't think that majority of people know how to do that because it's not easy. It's not it's not like a   super simple,   you know, process. And one small thing can can screw it up, and then they end up being in the same boat of having the same, whether it's minimal risk or not,   they're having the same risk. So,   and then you go to the same the the idea, right, of what do you do with your coins when you're ready to spend. And it goes back to that same concept that I just said where   I think that I've seen so many users that vary in experience and vary in technical skills,   where   some people are, like, super   type a, and they label every single UTXO. They're like, hey. I have a whole process. When I send it to my holder hardware wallet, I label every single one.  

I know which one is is which, and I and I'll never screw this up and whatever.   And then you go, hey, in 10 years, you plan on spending this. In 10 years, are you going to not screw this up? You know, because   whether it's an attacker or whether it's the government,  

[00:55:25] Unknown:

either way, right, you you need to be careful so that you don't do this the wrong way. You do it the wrong way, there's This is what I get angry at this is where I get angry at, like, the mister Havels of the world who are, like, coin controls all you need.   Because because CoinJoin's a perfect example of you need the ability to reset.   I forgot. I don't know what the label is for this UTXO. I have no idea where this is from. Let me put this into Whirlpool, and then I'll deal with it as a post mix.  

[00:55:53] Unknown:

Yep. And I think that would be the that's obviously the best way. Right? Is it, like, if you're not sure or if there's coins that you need to put back together in order to spend an x amount, then yeah. So it should go back through Whirlpool. You really shouldn't be playing that game unless they're already in a post mix wallet. And, and to be clear to be clear,  

[00:56:13] Unknown:

I have more   fucking coin in Whirlpool   than the majority of people   who would   that that would say, like, oh, Matt. Like, you're you're being you're overstating the   risks. Like, are you  

[00:56:27] Unknown:

I I I understand it's a calculated risk, and it is what it is. You need we if for Bitcoin privacy to use Bitcoin privately, you need an interactive wallet. You need a wallet that's connected to the Internet. We have no Hey, Matt. Matt, I'll never forget one time I'll never forget one time he was telling me when we one of the times when we first met, he was telling me about Whirlpool, and he was saying, miss now mix now and mix often.   Exactly. Because it's very important.  

[00:56:55] Unknown:

Wait. Like, woah. Did did I orange pill you on, Whirlpool? Am I the one who got you in?  

[00:57:00] Unknown:

I think so. I think you did.  

[00:57:04] Unknown:

There you go, Tello.  

[00:57:06] Unknown:

Full circle. Thanks, Matt.  

[00:57:08] Unknown:

That's so funny. You better think Matt because that's how I kinda went and told you. I wouldn't have fucking shut up in the New York Bitcoin community. That's for sure.  

[00:57:17] Unknown:

That's a funny story. Like like was like was first post, I can't forget, but we'll we'll get to that in a second.   Yeah. I I mean, I I think you're hitting it, man. Like, you have to you have to mix. And if you're really not sure, just mix it again. You know? And,   like, yeah. Do you have to pay a fee? Sure. But is it worth it? A 100%.   Like I mean, maybe it's not for you. If it's not for you, then,   you know, I don't know, ruin your privacy. But, you know, if it's worth it for you, there's there's different options, you know, whether you take your wallet offline   and have it as a warm I'm doing quotations that you can't see, a warm wallet, whether you send it to a cold storage,   you know, whether you send it to cold storage, whether you send it to a hardware wallet that, you know, you're trusting even though, I don't know, you were   silly and you plugged it into your computer.  

I don't know. What whatever works for you. If you're not sure and you're not confident in your spend, put put it back to   that's funny. Put it back to Well, summarize just go through Whirlpool. You know? Oh, that's why you're doing so much. Money. I get no just to be clear, I get your own money back  

[00:58:24] Unknown:

for shit. Getting paid for any of this fucking shit. I wish. We're doing it wrong. We're doing it wrong, boys. We're doing it wrong. Why are we getting paid? Paid for every time I showed Whirlpool.  

[00:58:34] Unknown:

Just a samurai.   Write down your c. Make a nice password phrase   instead of Sentinel.   And that's all you have to do, and then just, you know,   get rid of your wallet. Just let let Sentinel do its thing. That's all you have to do.  

[00:58:51] Unknown:

Yeah. There there is gonna be different,   tools coming out from what I understand. Again, this is all rumor. Don't fucking hold me to it because I'm not a samurai developer. But from what I hear, there's gonna be a lot more,   cold storage slash different   ways to send your coins out.   And   and then Sentinel is gonna have the ability to sign transactions offline,   being able to send,  

[00:59:17] Unknown:

you know,  

[00:59:18] Unknown:

doing doing all the things that you need. So you can actually just set up a cold storage   wallet that never touches the Internet   and utilize that as your cold storage, but it has all the post mix tools and everything that you need, And Sentinel can just sign and broadcast it, which well, I guess it wouldn't sign it, but your device would sign it and Sentinel could broadcast it.   They're they're coming up with that now, and that's to me, that's super awesome.  

[00:59:45] Unknown:

So it's it's all on the radar. There's a lot of things that come out. Zilko, this is what's super frustrating. Right? It's because   it's because I have   the samurai guys are coming at me   for being too low time preference,   and then I have the low time preference guys are coming at me for samurai.   And really,   few,   realize   very low time preference samurai   goal that I have is that I think,   they're building samurai   the samurai team is building the foundation of Bitcoin privacy   in an open source way, a free and open source way,   and you need this base. You need the base. You need the okay. We have   no deterministic   links   in a coordinated coin join round, and then it either goes out through a real multiparty   coin join or it goes out through a fake multi party coin join, and we default to fake multi party coin join. Okay. And we got that. And then on the front side, you go, okay.  

Let's change the pool sizes. Let's let's scale the pool sizes as as the amount happens, and then let's let's change it so that we can have multiparty UTXOs   so that we can have,   we can have individuals come in. We can have 5 or 6 people   come in. They come in. Then on the way out okay. Then on the way out, we could pay join,   you in in this case, in Sam Roth stowaway. We can do maybe we can do, like, 7 or 8 person coin joins, non coordinated coin joins on the way out. We can do fake 7 person coin joins. Like, you can do all these different things. Right? And it's about building this base. You have to build if you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then it's all a waste. If you if you don't build from a solid foundation, then what you have is a year and a half of us trying to increase Wasabi adoption,   and then them deciding   that we're gonna have to wait another year and a half for Wasabi 2 point o, and it's gonna be a completely different an anonymity set. Right? So you wanna build from this strong base.  

Yes?  

[01:01:52] Unknown:

Matt, let me add to that. Okay. So Samura is building a foundation for privacy. And then it's just one all you freaks know that   Sunrise license is open source, fully open source. You guys Yeah. Let's talk about this. Okay. Do do whatever you want with it. Don't worry about it. No one's gonna bite you.  

[01:02:08] Unknown:

Woah. Hold on.  

[01:02:09] Unknown:

Let's talk about it. You should we switch Exactly.  

[01:02:13] Unknown:

Yeah. So  

[01:02:15] Unknown:

they're not exact Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. So let me let me preface this, Zelko. Let me preface this. So right right now,   open source means a lot of different things,   a lot of different p I. So this is the 2nd main topic we wanna talk about. We wanna talk about Bitcoin privacy. We wanna talk about open source licenses.   There's many different licenses you can choose when you go open source, and they vary from being able to just view the source, source viewable,   to being able to do whatever you want with the code.   And people argue all the time about what is open source and what isn't.  

So so you have those 2 thing. And so so you have on one extreme end, you have closed source where you can't see the code at all.   Then you have source viewable where you can see the code, but you can't do anything with it. And then you have   proper open source. You have free open source software   where you're able to do whatever you want with the code, and no one can stop you. And you have all those different gradients in between.   You have different projects in between. Ronin Dojo is on the far the far side of the free open source, where you can just   do whatever you want with the code.  

Where do we stand here, boys? I know there's a lot of controversy here about the other full note Saks. Let's just fucking go go go into it. Alright.  

[01:03:31] Unknown:

So, well, first off, like so we have the same license as,   as samurai   AGPL,   AGPLv3,   but it's it's basically saying that it's,   copy left. Instead of copy right, it's copy left, meaning that anyone that wants to use their code, they can do whatever they someone can fork and just make their own run-in Dojo, whatever they wanna call it.   And but it has to remain open source. It has to remain they can charge people. They can do whatever, but it has to have the same licensing   as we do. Otherwise, they're liable.   So if they don't change their licensing, then then that service has to be free. Right? We saw this with, with myNode.  

K? So myNode tried to implement Whirlpool,   which I helped with, but   they wanted it to be a premium feature, and it couldn't be because they didn't have the same license that we did or that Whirlpool did.   So,   you know, the idea that,   like, free open source software is that it's supposed to have that freedom and supposed to protect   I mean, I guess it's everyone's opinion, but it's supposed to be able to protect,   you know, that code to be able to get to as many people as possible.   That's at least my interpretation. Right? So when you look at people that see competition,   and instead of saying, like, okay. Cool. Competition, bring it on. Right? You get people that get butt hurt. I'm I'm not gonna name any names. I just know that it's your favorite   your favorite,   you know, hardware wallet, but   they,   you know, they they wanna get upset even though they utilized   the same open source nature of all their hardware wallets in order to, you know, push their agenda, and that's fine. Like, that's the name of the game. Like, that that's exactly what   free open source software is about. Right? It's supposed to be able to anybody can come in, fork it, use it,   implement what they want, change what they want,   take it, charge people if that's what they wanna do. You know? But at the end of the day, keeping it free and open source protects you from, you know, the big corporations   that, you know, want to charge it, but wanna keep it proprietary and wanna keep it closed source or copyrighted even though it's not their code.  

So,   you know,   it and I was talking to some of the samurai guys, and it's like, man, like, what we're seeing now with some of these creative or the, the common clause and n c NCND,   I wasn't even super spun up on it, and I was like, wait. What do you mean it's not just open source?   Like, it's not just, like, the the regular GNU or, you know,   why   why are any why is anyone getting upset right now? Or why is anyone trying to, like, overly protect   what what they do? Like, this is what Bitcoin's about. Bitcoin is about being open source so that anybody can do whatever they want.   They wanna make a PR? Cool. Do it. Like, let's see what you got. You know? Let's,   let's,   I don't know, change the game. If you wanna take it and, you know, you like some of the things that I do, like, if I like some of the things that,   you know, Minot or Umbrell does and I wanna take it, but now I can't because you changed your your licensing,   like, does that really make you unique? I don't like, I don't know. Does that make you confident in your ability to to provide a good product?  

I don't know.   But   I don't know. I think that we're we're going down this weird rabbit hole of   like, I'm seeing a big shift in the Bitcoin community of people being too scared to just make it fully open source   and fully available to everybody to do what they want and keeping that copy left, right, so that everybody   can,   can do what they want. Right?   That that's what Bitcoin's supposed to be about, at least in my opinion. I don't know. Like, well, you guys you  

[01:07:22] Unknown:

go ahead. But before we bring like, well, into here,   and I still hear an echo echo. So go.   Okay. Thank you. If if   and I I don't know why that that goes happening. If if I wanna play devil's advocate just for the freak's sake,   I I think a very clear cut argument   would be   and and something they have heard in the past because we've had, Rodolfo on twice now,   lead maintainer of Coldcard,   cofounder of Coldcard Wallet.   The main argument would be you have someone like Foundation Devices, in this case of Coldcard,   who takes a direct copy   of Coldcard   and go and raises VC money based off of it.  

They take preorders based off of it.   They advertise based off of being as secure as cold card. So, like, people have a respect for cold card and already, and and they advertise, like, like, oh, if you buy this hardware wallet, you'll know you'll get just as good security as cold card.   And they have not released anything yet, and they have not released anything upstream even though, technically,   they say they're complying with the license because no one has received product yet.   So no one has received product yet. So when they receive product, we will release our upstream improvements.   And in the meantime, they refactored everything. So to pretend like   they didn't really take what they took.  

And you ended up in that situation, and I could see   I see the argument from Rodolfo where he says,   you know, you have source viewable, so you're able to view the code. You're able to verify the code. You're able to not trust me and verify. But at the same time, like, I'm not gonna let you just go and basically, like, dilute my VC investment potential because I've chosen not to invest go with VCs.   And and you're just gonna go and do that and just and and be malicious in terms of of the ways you do to do preorders,   I'm not gonna let you do that and and go for a more restrictive license that still allows you to view the source, but doesn't allow you to take it.  

I mean, I I think that would that would be the main argument against,   a a fully open source license.   Where do like, what's your counterargument   against that?  

[01:09:54] Unknown:

I'll I'll start in, like, the way you can finish because I know you've been in the in the in the false game probably longer than I know that you've been in the false game longer than I have. But,   I mean, yeah, it's a it's a business model. Right?   And   when it threatens your business model because people are,   not upholding the same   so so, like,   if they upheld the same license   that,   that Coldcard did, right, and Coldcard   obviously took code from from Trezor. Right? We know this.  

[01:10:29] Unknown:

But but to be clear,   they took, like, they took a very little amount of code, and the new update removes that code from from the software. For whatever it's It doesn't   really matter. Be clear. Right?   Yeah. I mean, like Just to be clear, they didn't change of the code they they took from Trezor, which was minimal amount of code compared to the amount of code that Foundation took. It's it's   I I I'm not trying to I don't want it to be perceived that I'm defending my buddy Rodolfo.   Even though he is my buddy, he's a close friend for me, But I I I I want this conversation to be talked about because no one's talking about this shit, and this is where what Citadel dispatch is about. We this is why we dispatch. Okay. Continue.  

[01:11:10] Unknown:

Yeah. You're good. I mean and it's it's not an act to, like, his product. Right? Like, I don't think Rodolfo is a bad person. I think he's trying to look at it from a business perspective. Right? Like, it's a   you know, someone literally taking a copy of his code. I I don't know every single detail, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I do. But if it was, right, I I can understand being frustrated and being pissed, and then, you know, you getting people that you're losing potential customers because of it. Like, that makes sense. Right? But   that's that's part of the game. Right? Like, that that's part of what this is. Literally, like, if I wanted to today to start my own samurai wallet, I could do that with the same licensing.  

As long as I kept the same licensing, I can I can push my own product and say, hey? This is I provide   Whirlpool and Stonewall and Kahoots and   Pay NIMs and all this stuff, and anybody can do this. You you're like, my wallet is better than samurai wallet.   Right? Like, I I can do that. And then samurai wallet's going to be, like, okay, fucking game on. You know what I mean? Like, they're gonna say, hey, good to go. Let's do this. And they're going to step up to the challenge and fight it.   That's Yeah. That's what I expect. That's called that that that's just straight competition.   You know? I mean, everyone   I I don't know. Like, I I do understand. I do understand, like, him wanting to protect his   his   his code. Right? Everyone wants to protect their code to some sort. Mhmm. You know? But,   you know, if you want to claim that you are false, if you're a free open source software,   you need to be copy left, not copyright. You need to be copy left, and you need to keep that because that that's what Bitcoin has always been on. That is what the Bitcoin community's been about. That's what, like, this whole the whole movement of free open source software   has been about, like, yeah. Okay. Cool. You wanna take your stuff? Cool. We have different ideas because ultimately, like, Foundation's gonna have different ideas than   than NVK is. Right? Like, Rudolfo's gonna have a different,  

[01:13:18] Unknown:

like, perspective than Foundation is. It's better for us users that foundation exists.   No. Say it again? To to be to be clear here. Okay? So I was   I was being a little bit, you know, I I do this twice a week now. Okay? So I was being a little bit, gratuitous. I was trying to create the situation, and I will admit to that. But   I personally have told Rodolfo,   privately   that I disagree with how he's proceeded with the situation. And I would add   that   I think   that as big corners, we should support strictly free open source projects.   All else equal, a free open source project   that has a license that has no restrictions whatsoever on what I can do with the code   is superior,   and and that fosters the open source movement. It creates a foundation that other people can build on.  

I think   this move   by otherwise   respected   individuals in our community   Rodolva's not the only one. Recently,   the argument has been about Umbrel, and the Raspberry Pi Blitz guys have rightfully so brought up Umbrel's   licensing.   I know the Ronin Dojo guys. I know you guys have talked about it as well, and and this is a main part of of this discussion.   It stems from insecurity.   It stems from a level of insecurity.   And   if if I'm a user and I trust Coldcard,   it doesn't matter if Foundation   copies my code. It doesn't matter if they release a piece of product that's exactly the same as Coldcard. I mean, they they they release a product that looks different, but imagine they release a product that looks exactly the same as Coldcard,   and they use the identical code.  

Like, I'm not gonna just immediately trust that product. Like, there there is there is a reputation   at line like, there's a reputation   on the line here   that that that is as much as we say don't trust verified, that is that is in the picture.   And it's the same exact thing with Samurai, and and and anyone who wants to   protect their code and same thing with Umbrel. And anyone who wants to protect their code   through restrictive licensing   is someone who's insecure   that their reputation,   that their company, that their that the trust that they built up with their users,   is not sufficient enough to propel them. And I I think that's a loser's mentality. Like, I think   that these that these guys who I respect the fuck out of, to be quite honest,   and that I consider friends,   they they should just not be as insecure.  



[01:16:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I I got my hand raised, guys. I got my hand raised. Okay. Like, well, what what do you think here? Alright. So here's the thing.   You're a software developer. You're either going to write software that you're going to share with the world, or you're going to write software that you're not going to share with the world. It's either you're gonna open source it or you're not gonna open source it. Right?   Rodolfo created very good software. In my opinion, Coldcar is is very thunderous hardware and software.   Right?  

I think that he didn't understand,   basically, what he was doing with the license. He didn't know.   I don't I'm not trying to rag on him or anything,   but he should've known the license that he was releasing his software in. Understand   Foundation might have just took his code   and took a lot of his work,   and they got they went ahead and got VCs, and they got funding, and they they this is not what he wanted. He wanted to grow organically. Right?   And and I admire that from him. You know? But you have to understand, when you create code like that and somebody takes it, it's because of the license that you choose, and you have to respect that. And that's that's that's what innovation does. You allow people to take your code   and work on it and improve upon it. And this is what, you know, Copyleft allows. It allows people to go ahead and take your code and do whatever they want, but they're gonna have to contribute back. Right?  

So he shouldn't have gotten so mad about what they did.   He is a better developer than they are. They took his code,   basically. In the in the first place, they took his code. If they didn't need his code, they could've done their own code. Right? They could've done their own implementation.   But he's has he has to be confident in his abilities   and what he's going to do.   He already has a a reputation of creating a piece of hardware. Hard you know, one of the,   I think, the most popular,   you know, cold storage wallets out there.   Hands down. Right?  

He should not worry about foundation. He should just keep going and just and just focus.   The thing that got me a little bit upset is him changing his license, which is it just goes against what he started,   which is, you know, creating a license that allows other people to fork it, to innovate from it, and for him to get, you know, get back innovation that's coming from other people. So either, you know, you're gonna be closed source or open source. And that's that's the thing with me.   You know, you wanna share it. I mean, let's let's think about Red Hat and other Linux distributions.   If Ubuntu   was closed source, then you wouldn't have the Redis, you know, like GENTILINUX.  

If they if that had a license, then people couldn't be able to, create forks out of it. You wouldn't have you wouldn't have other things that came out of it.   So, you know,   Red Hat made a lot of money. They made their money from support.   And there's a lot of money in open source software. People think, oh, no. You can't make money off it. There is.   You know? You you can't sell the code because it's open source. Right? Anybody can copy it. But you're building products from it, and you're building you're making money from the support.   And that's the way it is, and I I just feel that   he shouldn't feel   threatened by Foundation. I know they they they took a lot of his hard work and dedication, and they went ahead   and they did whatever they did. Right?  

He should just stay focused on what he's building, and that's it. That's that's just the thing that I that I feel about.   And he shouldn't not change his license. He should've just kept it the way it is because right now, his license is just a little bit like you, you know, you you can take it, but you can't do nothing with it.   And that's kinda like, you know it's a little fucked up, in my opinion.  

[01:19:48] Unknown:

I agree a 100% with what you're saying, Matt. It it shows a sign of weakness, in my opinion.   If you're if you're worried about the competition,   right,   like, if you're worried about them just taking what you do and then   doing their own thing,   that means that you're you're really are worried about them surpassing you.   You know, I   I definitely   and and like you said, right, I actually do really do respect the developers.   I mean, especially when you're talking about the node game. Right? Like,   my node and   and Umbrella in particular come into mind. I don't necessarily agree with their how they implement everything. I mean, I've already had my scuffs with some of the guys, but, you know, I think that,   I think that, you know, when you have a really good product, you know, you shouldn't worry about everything else.  

Like, screw it. Like, if they're worried about Minot or if they're worried about, I don't know,   Embassy,   you know,   make a better product.   You know, make make have your community be the ones that back you, you know, because   I I don't see that with Samurai Wallet. Like, I don't see like, they're completely open source. All you have to do is use the same license.   But they're not worried about anything, and no one's even like, there's been other,   like,   other companies have taken their code and made their own samurai wallet, but it's been for, you know, different coins that aren't on Bitcoin.   Obviously, like, that's not, like, a threat to SamRite Wallet, but, like,   if someone did, who cares?  

SamRite Wallet has has a strong community.   You know, Umbrell has a strong community.   You know,   you know, Minode has a strong community.   Why would you worry about someone taking your code? And on top of that, like, it blow it it kinda it it makes me feel, like, kinda weird when I go to think about it, especially when you're talking about nodes. Right? Like, you're talking about, like, you're adding other people's code   to your code,   and you wanna claim, you know, you wanna claim something.   I was talking to one of the developers of mempool,   and he was like,   what? I'm I'm not gonna get his name, and it, but he was like, I have to pay a premium   to use my own code on my node.  

How how absurd is that? You   know what I mean? Like, how absurd is the fact that, like, you can't just   utilize the code  

[01:22:18] Unknown:

that's right there? I don't know how relevant it is. I mean, I I agree.   I agree.   You know, ultimately   look. Citadel dispatch is a show about free open source software. Like, it's a it's a power of free open source software. So I agree. And I'm just I want it to be clear that I'm playing devil's advocate. Right? But in practice,   really, it doesn't if if if your source viewable, it doesn't matter if your if your license says,   the what really matters with your license if it says you can commercially use it however the fuck you want,   because,   personally, I can just I'm gonna use your code, and there's nothing you can do. Like, in practice, like, no one's gonna be able to enforce that shit. Right? So so really what you're saying is you're saying, like, a law abiding individual   can't create   a a company based off of this thing.  



[01:23:08] Unknown:

Right? Well, you should you should if you're, like okay. So if if you are a open source company   and you actually are you have a business model based on your open source software,   you should have lawyers that are ready to   prosecute if you need to. Right? Like, say,   say, someone forks Ronan. I mean, I don't have lawyers on, so you guys can fork it. I'm not gonna be able to do shit about it. It, but say, you know, say that I did and and I have a business model based on that, based on, let's say, a premium, right,   which is not our thing. But if we had a premium   and   someone just forked it and was like, oh, we're gonna do the same thing, but we're gonna charge,   you know, 50% less. And we're gonna undercut them, but we're gonna offer the exact same thing. Right?  

Yeah. I I would have lawyers that that would be able to fight me for it, you know, but it it ultimately depends. Right? It depends on how they implement the license. It depends on how everything else works.   But, ultimately, like, there is,   you know, there's a lot of nuances in licensing,   and you can if you're a developer, you can use that to your,   you know, to your benefit   without   degrading the fact that you are   the fact that you are open source. You know, you want it to be the whole purpose, like I said, to go back from the beginning,   the whole purpose   of open source software   is that everybody grows and everyone gets better because no matter the no matter what company it is. Right? So say that   say you, Matt Odell, decided to fork Ronin and, you know, you wanted to add Lightning and you wanna do all this other stuff because I refuse to do it. Right?  

You're gonna have your own user base. You're gonna have your own people, and then I'm gonna have my own people that disagree with your outlook on it. And that's how that's how we end up. I mean, there are operating systems that are literally that. Right? Fedora versus Red Hat. You know, it's the same thing.   You know? So,   ultimately, like, yeah, do you lose customers? Sure. But does, like, the world get better because of it? Yes.   You know, like, competition drives,   you know,   you know, drives,   innovation.   So why are we not accepting that? You know? Yeah. Like, just accept the competition and and say, you know, screw it. Like, let let's go to battle. Competition is good. Is it yeah. Competition is what we're here about. Zelkovic, I mean, you put it exactly how I mean, I I agree with everything you said. Right? I I I I don't,  

[01:25:40] Unknown:

like, fuck all this idea of suing people and using IP and all this shit. Right? Like, it it is a ridiculous premise. It is something that I am   intentionally   moved my life away from. Right? Like, I don't wanna deal with bureaucracy. That's why I have Bitcoin.   Right? Like, the this whole idea of open source,   this movement   is is bigger than just Bitcoin. It's the idea that we can all build on shared values. Right? That we can build on shared innovation, and then you don't have,   the Googles and the Apples of the world,   dictating what you can work on and what you can't work on. And, yes, as you add restrictions to the software,   then we're getting that on on smaller scales in Bitcoin, and and and you don't wanna see it.  

I would argue that   I think where my hard line is is source viewable. I think, you know,   it's fucked up, but but it's the truth. It's, like, especially in shit corner land,   we have lots of wallets that are not even source viewable.   So if it's sourced viewable, at least you can fucking   break any kind of   bullshit licensing they have,   and make them go enforce it on an individual basis. But I do agree that, ultimately, what we really wanna support is just straight Libre,   free open source software.  

[01:27:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean Like yeah. Go on.   No. I mean and it goes with, like, everything. Right? I mean, I recently made a switch, and it doesn't just have to be about Bitcoin. You know? Like, I recently made a switch over to,   Calix OS. You know what I mean? Like,   there it's the same thing. So   it's   you need to understand if you're if you're the user, right,   pick what you want, pick who you trust.   Ultimately, like, if like, cold cards cold card product is solid.   You know, if, like,   you wanna see a change in their license because you believe in the whole   free open source software idea,   You know, make that you vocalize that. But, otherwise, like, you know, use what you trust. That's really what it comes down to. Use who you trust,   because, you know, when you talk to, like, normal people about free open source software, I was I was talking to my wife about it, and she was just like, so   what makes it different? I was like, well, I mean, like, it's it's our product. Like, people trust us. And she's like, that's really is that it? Because anybody can just take your code and just do whatever they want with it. And I was like, yeah.  

She's like, that's it? And I was like, yeah. Well, like, it is what it is. You know? As long as they're they have the same licensing, they can do the same thing.   And Is it You know? It's crazy to think about.  

[01:28:24] Unknown:

What what what about   so I'm I'm loving this conversation. Okay. So so so I do agree that I think I think ultimately, like, it just comes down to insecurity, and I've   I've specifically told Rodolfo this a bunch of times. It's like, you hit the nail on the head right there, man. You're you're best in class. Like, you're best in class. It doesn't matter. Like, you could have a 1000000 competitors that all copy your same exact code, and you're still cold card. Like, why are you gonna create an issue out of nothing?   Why are you gonna create a concern out of out of the hard cores that are free open source till till they die, rightfully so,   and and create an issue out of that when when you're the leader of the pack? And he shouldn't have done that. And I hope he's listening to this right now,   rather than Clubhouse, and and and he's considering it.  

That said,   to the Rodolfas of the world You know You know  

[01:29:17] Unknown:

You know I hope it wasn't.  

[01:29:18] Unknown:

Wait. Wait. We're we're we're we're the type of people, in general, that are against this this idea of communism, of socialism.   What do you say to the people who say   that open source software is   is is socialism, is communism,   that free open source software is communism?  

[01:29:40] Unknown:

I mean.  

[01:29:41] Unknown:

Guys, let's think about Bitcoin. Bitcoin is open source money. Right?   It's open source, and we don't have to worry about someone controlling it. It has censorship resistant, you know, permissionless. Right?   Open source code is code that people can run however they want. Right?   People can study the code. They can study if they have vulnerabilities.   This is awesome.   You can't do that with closed source software. You're running Windows. You don't know what the hell is happening back there. Okay?   With free open source, you can go ahead and distribute it how you want. You can copy it.   You can modify it however the hell you want. You can, you know, you can modify,   Google Chrome   browser, however you want. You can take out the freaking menus however you want. And that's the freedom of open source software. You can is you can go ahead and modify. It's like taking a car and just putting a different engine in it. Taking a car and putting tinted windows, putting a different stereo in it. That's awesome that we can do that with software, you know, and and and that's an amazing thing.  

And it helps with our privacy. It helps with our security.   And I think that,   you know, closed cell software is just the fucking devil.  

[01:30:55] Unknown:

I mean, so I was just I was curious what you guys are gonna say, but, I mean, my argument would be that I think it's pure capitalism, is what it is.   I think you take away any kind of inherent advantages that any individual has, and you just operate on pure capitalism.   And that that's what a free open source software is to me. So I I I don't think it is incompatible with my worldview,   and I hope that more projects   opt to use licenses like Ronin Dojo and Samura Wallet I've chosen to use that is just completely copy left, which honestly, I hate the term copy left, but just this idea that anyone can use the code,   anyone can respect the code, anyone can use the code. They can do whatever the fuck they wanna do with the code. We're not gonna get any lawyers involved. We're not gonna get any regulators involved. We don't care what nation you're in when you make the fucking   software.  

Like, fuck this, all this shit. Like, code is code. We're gonna use this code. We're gonna prove the code. We're gonna make it better. We're gonna run this shit, and that's it. Right? Like, fuck all this other shit. It's all noise. So I just wanna be I wanna be clear here that, you know, where does Matt stand? Where does Sidhula Dispatch stand? That's where they stand.   We have our good friend of the show,   Shinobi,   is is is coming at me on Twitter right now about this idea   that   remixers   in in samurai   don't increase the anonymity set   if if   if you are one of the individuals that aren't coin joining.  

Why is this wrong? Like, I I I think this is simple logic. Am I   what am I missing here? How do we explain this better to the freaks? This idea that if a participant in your coin join round then goes on to do another coin join round, the probability   percentage of which your output is   increases   should be a very simple concept.   Where am I what am I missing here? You're not missing anything. And if I could be speaking in all caps right right now, I would be. Oh, there we go. Embrace the cap. Let the caps flow through you.  

[01:33:04] Unknown:

This is you know, Shinobi did the all caps before you, so it's okay. Oh, is that true?  

[01:33:10] Unknown:

A 100%. Are you serious? You never saw this Twitter. I thought I'm I'm the caps.   As far as this show is concerned, I started caps. No one no one had ever decided that they were gonna use all caps before me.  

[01:33:22] Unknown:

Listen, you did all caps for things that didn't need all caps.   Shouldn't there's all caps.   Maybe there's all caps to yell at people on Twitter. So Matt, you forked the license for all caps. Look at look at the fake in the comments. Look at the freaking All caps. Shinobi has a copyright   on all caps speaking.   Anyways,   I okay. So here's my thing. Right?   He's saying it it equal outputs does and not does not give you what so if you don't remix, it does not give you  

[01:33:51] Unknown:

more anonymity sets. If other people are around,   remix.  

[01:33:56] Unknown:

Yeah. No. That that's illogical.   Right? Because if if I could, like, show on a board right now, right,   you are 1 of 5 that comes out. So if anyone in those 14   remixes,   no one can tell because those those deterministic lengths from your TX 0, your premix.   Right? No one could tell which one you are. So one of those 5 gets remixed, not one not being you. They get remixed. How does anyone outside observer looking at it can see, hey, that person is   Zelco.   Right? They can't. So now you went from 4 to 9. Right? Because that one, one of those other 4 people got remixed. So now you went to 9 possible outcomes.   K? So and then, say, another one from your initial   your initial,   mix gets remixed. Alright. Cool. So now you went from 9   to   14.  

Right? And that's before. This is saying that you haven't remixed at all. You're just lucky that other people have remixed.   And then out of that, out of either of those 2, we'll say, Echelon 2 or tier 2 remixes   of people that were not necessarily you,   2 other people remixed. So now you're looking at another 20. Right? So that's 34.   And then from that second one that I went to, I really wish I had a diagram because this will make it look so much better. But   you we see that that extrapolates, and that's a a literally a a   perfect example of why that 0 that equal output   is so important.  

Right? That equal output means that no one can see and no one can tell who is who and where who's getting remixed and who's not getting remixed.   The only time that you don't get   forward looking anonymity   is the moment that you move your coins out of the pool. So the moment that you spend, the moment that you send out to cold storage or whatever, which again is fine. Everyone has their own thing. I'm all for spending. I'm all for sending wherever you want. But the moment that you come out of there,   that's one less UTXO   that is possible on the pool,   and that's fine. But that's why it's encouraged,   right, to remix as long as you can. Someone in the chat asked earlier,   how long should I remix for,   and then when should I draw my coins out? And I'll just caveat into that answer,   which my answer in the chat was, hey. You know, remix for however long that you feel like you should. I know it's not, like, an actual answer.  

Right? But determine what a good time is for you. Say you wanna wait, you know, 3 months or 2 months or, you know, 2 weeks, you know, and then say you mixed 1 whole Bitcoin. Right?   Send a little bit at a time at different varying,   different   times. Right? So say you send   point 04   in 3 weeks after that, and then you wait 2 weeks, and then you send 0.02,   and then so on and so forth. You send them out at different times. But,  

[01:36:55] Unknown:

yes. To be clear Yeah. To be clear here, we're talking about forward looking. We're not talking about backward looking. And and Shinobi is intentionally misrepresenting me to be backward   backward looking for the majority of people is coming straight from a KYC exchange, and they have no fucking privacy whatsoever backward looking.   So let's try and be practical here and look forward looking.   Shinobi is also claiming   that I am misrepresenting him even though I am explaining what he is commenting live   while we have a live comment section that is broadcast to everyone   in this fucking show that no other show has.  

So fuck you on that regard, Shinobi. I've been very practical with you. I consider you a friend. I wish you just didn't treat me in a way that was, you know, I I I I just feel like you're you're you're treating me like a bad actor   when I've I've tried to to employ this here. I've I've I've I've tried to   talk about all these different nuances here,   and and and and the the fact of the matter is fucking clear on ZeroLink is is if someone else remixes in your round,   obviously, that increases your anonymity set. They the the it's a probability game. You have a probability game in Bitcoin. When you're tracking Bitcoin, it's a probability game. You're deciding   this person is 72% likely of going down this path. And if you're in that situation   and you have other people   that are in your probability graph   that are increasing their probability, then your probability increases. It's basic it's basic logic. It's a very simple concept. You if if I remix with you and then Zelko goes and remixes with, like, 15 different people, I benefit from Zelco.  



[01:38:43] Unknown:

Correct.   I mean, he's he doesn't understand the difference between and, I mean, he's already responded to me, but I I've learned long ago to not let Shinobi dictate how I feel,   because he's genuinely   biased,   and,   I don't wanna call him an idiot because I'm sure he's smart in other areas,   but he's, he lets his bias and he lets his   his emotions feel,   feel where it comes from.   I mean,   6102   already said it. Right? Like, he's talking about backwards anonymity, which is hard set. You You can't talk about He's he's he's he's  

[01:39:22] Unknown:

he's decided that he wants to nitpick every fucking thing I say, and he wants to be ridiculous about it. And now he's talking about how users do not have add onsets, only UTXOs do. So he's not acting in good faith,   and and it's unfortunate that this is where we had to end up. You know? But send them over to me. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna help him set up Bowman's calculator. Okay? I'll I'll I'll help him set it up. It's it's it's it's it's unfortunate that someone that I had respect for decides that they want to just act in bad faith over and over again just because I called them out once. And and it is what it is,   but but here we are. So, I mean, let let's let's just drop all of this. It's not fucking worth our time.  

The point is, if you wanna look at the logic,   if you use actually proper ZERELINK,   other people mixing should improve   your privacy   because it increases the probability that you could be any of those other fucking UTXOs.   That is what it is. That is just basic math.  

[01:40:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, but like like I said, don't don't let Shinobi,   you know, get under your skin.   I've gone to battle as well as many of the other samurai guys, gone to battle with him, and it's hopeless. And it's   and it's funny. And, you know, like, after a while, you know, you go through   a samurai users, dedicated samurai users, a lot of people think it's, like, cult like following.   It's more that family that you end up having. Right? Like,   you see people attack,   attack the code that you know is good. Right?   We've seen this with whether it's mister Hodel or whether it's Shinobi.  

You see them attack stuff, and even, like   like, I've never been more frustrated as a person that works   like, has dedicated,   like, 3 years now to   bringing   Jojo to as many people as I can. Right?   Strictly because I believe in it. Right? Because I believe in the idea of running your own node. You know, an added effect is that,   an added effect is that no one is or the the whole, like, oh, Samura, I can see your your   x bulbs or whatever. Like, yeah. No shit. I mean, like, that's the same as any node like, any wallet that you use that you're not running your node.   But, you know, they make they make all these different claims, and I'm like, dude, there are so many nodes   that run Dojo. Like, even now, we have Umbrel that added it. Right? So you have Umbrel,   nodal, Ronin,   Mynoo,  

[01:41:51] Unknown:

Vanilla To be clear wait. Wait. To be clear here, for the the average user that might be confused and scared. Okay?   You're right to be confused and scared. Your privacy sucks. You're just failing in privacy in every respect in Bitcoin. Okay?   Don't don't let this argument scare you off, though. Like, you will figure it out. You'll make it happen,   slowly and surely. You just have to trust yourself, and you just have to, like, be diligent about it. But,   to be absolutely clear,   if and and   I know Zelco and, like, well, will disagree with me here. If you use CoinJoin of any sort, I think it's a net improvement. If you seek out any kind of privacy benefit, I think it's a net improvement.   Use your own node. Try and learn how to use the different CoinJoin implementations.  

I think Whirlpool is strictly the best implementation.   I think you should use the Samura Stack. But if you're if you're a Bitcoiner and you're using any kind of   CoinJoin   implementation,   you're on the right track. You're using Lightning, you're on the right track. These these are these are more advanced user features, and these are things you need to learn now   before your government tries to   come down and and and   and and stop you from using these things in a in a more free way. Man, I can't agree with you more. I don't wanna discourage people. I don't want I don't want people to be discouraged  

[01:43:13] Unknown:

from privacy just because some assholes want to fucking pick fights with me while I'm live. Man, I can't agree with you more. You're absolutely right about that. But let me just be honest with everybody.   The best privacy   is to keep all your Bitcoin in Coinbase. Okay, guys?   No. In Coinbase,   you'll be safe.  

[01:43:32] Unknown:

Fuck you, dude.  

[01:43:34] Unknown:

You want me to disconnect you? On the top. Alright? You're losing money by having money in Coinbase.   Yeah. I,  

[01:43:43] Unknown:

You're trusting them with your privacy if you keep your money in any kind of custodial   institution.   That's for sure. Right? But with the external privacy, you get some external privacy. I do agree with that, but fuck you for even bringing them.  

[01:43:59] Unknown:

Matt, I I mean, I agree with you. Right?   Like, everyone should be using the tools to I mean, like, that's diverter's thing. Right? Use the tools. He's not gonna be the fucking tools, guys.   Use use everything that we talked about. But, ultimately, like, if you are a person that is super confused right now and you are, like, I don't understand the CoinJoin debate. I don't understand which one to use.   I don't understand   why I should use   why I should use them. Number 1, if you don't know why to use them, you haven't been listening to,   to SITO dispatch   or TFTC, so shame on you.  

But second thing is if you're really not sure which one to do, like,   just play with them. Like, go on Testnet,   test each one, and then look at the transactions. Like, you have to   you know, privacy and security is,   like, I I think you say it best, Matt. Like, it's a small step forward. Every time that you go to do something, you have to take the small steps forward.   So if you are you actually care about your privacy and you care about the the outcomes of your transactions,   right, in Bitcoin, you need to you need to play around and see which one is best. And then   and then you need to be thinking and asking other people, like, the different threat models. Matt brings up Matt, you're, like, great at threat models. I'll give you that. Like, you're really good at thing outside the box as far as, like, why things would be a different threat model because I don't always think that way. But   what what people need to do is, like, if you're not sure and and this is generally what happens when I get tired of debating with someone about, like, why they should not use join market or   Wasabi. I'm like, dude, just go use it. Like, if you don't believe me, download it, go on Testnet, use it, and then look at your outcomes, and tell me why that that is better.  



[01:45:46] Unknown:

But no. So so so wait. Wait. Zelco. So so so   this is this is me versus BCash all over again. Okay? So it's like, I agree with the person 99%,   and then,   like, he was gonna be my brother. So so   here's the example. Okay? So I went to my lady's,   friend's wedding,   and there was a Bitcoiner there. Right? And I spent 3 hours to him, and we got along famously.   This guy was gonna be my future brother. It was amazing that I met him at my my lady's friend's wedding.   Didn't know anyone there. That's the coolest fucking thing ever. We agree on everything.   Turns out he was a b cacher.  

Right? And we disagreed vehemently on that last 1%.   That's how I feel about people who use Wasabi or joint market. It's like, those people are my people.   Those people agree that Bitcoin privacy is of the utmost importance.   We just disagree on the final step. We disagree on that last   that last 1%.  

[01:46:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, listen, refu refugees are always welcome, and I don't mean that as people crossing the border. I mean that, like, quite literally. Like,   once you realize that you've you that your privacy is kinda fucked,   you know, you it's okay. We still accept you. We're willing to forgive.   You know, it's not really the anger   and the frustration   towards,   towards those other implementations   isn't about it's it's honestly, like, 100%, it's not about the users. It's 0% about the users at all. So your people that are listening that, I know someone was talking about it,   in the chat,   and it's what he's saying, it it isn't relevant to what I'm saying, but   it's not bad. Like, we're not we're not mad at at users. We're mad at the developers who it's almost in   it's   they don't care. Like, what they're doing is reckless, in our opinion, at least in my opinion. What they do is reckless. Right?  

And when you know that you have an our opinion. That it's hurting, it's hurting your users.   Yeah. Like, you're you're hurting your users. You know what I mean? Like, you are falsely and then you go out and you attack samurai wallet who's doing the right things. Right? Yeah. They they may be aggressive, and they might be willing to fight back. Right? But,   but they but they're not the other developers aren't looking out for their users. If you don't if you're a developer and you don't care about your users,   then you're not,   like, you're not doing the right thing. And it should really start with the fact that, like, you are your own user. Right? So if you're your own user, all these other things you notice, you see, and you fix.  



[01:48:32] Unknown:

I'm the perfect example. I'm the fucking perfect example. I fucking   I used and shield the fucking shit out of hubby.   I was the best shield that they ever could have asked for. They never paid a cent for it. I paid them.   Right?   And I realized that the implementation was broken. And I went to them and I was like, the implementation is broken, and they did not fucking fix it.   And here I am now telling people to use Whirlpool, you know. I'm not saying that Whirlpool is perfect. I'm saying if I think that Whirlpool is broken,   I will be outspoken   about Whirlpool being broken. And if they don't fix it, I will fucking   flip shits forever until they fucking fix it. And that's what I did with Wasabi,   And and that's that's as a user and a spokesperson because what happens with privacy technology,   if we don't have people using privacy technology,   privacy technology doesn't work. We need people to use it. Every single privacy technology, whether that's Tor or VPN or encryption   or   or CoinJoin,   is it requires   people to use it. We need a crowd to use it. If we don't have a crowd using it,   then it's just   me, Zelco, and Likewell  

[01:49:48] Unknown:

mixing amongst each other, and there's no privacy. Exactly. I mean, like, that I mean, that's how it was in the beginning of Whirlpool. Like, there really was not much liquidity, and we just saw it grow and grow. But, yeah, I mean, if people don't use the tools, then it just dies. Right? Or it makes it really easy to identify those people. We need people to coinjoin. We need people to to use whatever it is that they want. But,   you know, when we see people,   when we see developers,   right, that sit in there I I like to think of developers sometimes because I'm I wouldn't consider myself the average developer,   mostly because I come from a nontechnical background.  

You know, you see developers sit in their ivory tower and their egos get so big. Right? They get so inflated, and people pat them on the back and tell them that they're great.   And then   they to to be able to admit when they're wrong. We had we had a long discussion about this in one of our one of our chats where we did, like, a live stream in Telegram, but, like,   it it blows my mind that, like, you know, when it comes to your users in your product   as a developer, you need to be able to be humble   when it comes down to it. I know I know being humble is not always a thing, but you need to be able to step back and say, like, hey. Like, what we did was wrong.   Samurai Wallet or or whoever was right,   let's implement it. You know? Like, bit 47.  

Like, why is that, like, why is that not a thing across all Why is that not a thing?   Because people because   the only wallet that has it is samurai wallet.  

[01:51:24] Unknown:

What's samurai? Don't realize what people don't realize is this space is still so fucking small. It's still so fucking incestuous   that I am probably   one of   200, 300 people who have used both lightning and liquid.   Like, that's a I think that's a good example. And I I realized this recently because Grubles was asking questions   about Lightning, and we all know he uses Liquid. Like, he's our Blockstream boy. I we all know he uses Liquid.   He doesn't use Lightning.   He just used Lightning for the first time, and there's plenty of people on the opposite side that have never used Liquid. And there's plenty of people that are commenting about CoinJoin that have never used CoinJoin, have never used either implementation,   have never used any of the 3 implementations.  

So here I am sitting with using all 3 implementations.   I've used Lightning. I've used Liquid. It's like I have a superpower. It's like all of a sudden I fucking use the things that we're talking about, so I'm able to fucking talk about them. Now I have a Shinobi in here saying that I was being misleading   about saying that users are UTXOs.   One of the cool things about Whirlpool,   to be absolutely fucking clear,   is that with Whirlpool, the way they they sanitize the transactions before they go into the CoinJoin   is they set it up in a way that the the   the more   funds you come in with, they'll lower your fee. And any funds they come in with at the same time can be considered the same user,   which creates this incentive   where where a good user is going to basically docks their transactions as all of their own, and they won't be included in the same round. So you get separated amongst other rounds because you're considered as the same user even though it's simply a UTXO. It's a UTXO coming in.  

So that's a very important point. So I I I do applaud Shenobi for having us bring that up to the freaks. And if the freaks didn't realize that, it's important for them to realize that.   I mean,   do you guys have any other comments on this subject, or should we move on to the next subject?  

[01:53:32] Unknown:

I'm just trying to look at the chat because I see a bunch of questions that people are trying to to get to.   I see, is there a balance comparison? It's from James Viggie.   Is there a balance comparison of the 2 implementation that explains the trade offs or exposes the fatal flaw, etcetera?   Genuine question looking for resources to understand the debate.   So   I would say with, with that, the balanced comparison,   there's been a lot of there's been research papers done by OXD Research,   although you may seem it's biased, so it's fine. It is biased, to be honest. How many   it's owned by Sam or a wallet, but I would go towards   I would take a look at 6102's   work. So 6102,   big shout out. I mean,   I've   I've been I've been friends with a guy for a while and worked with him for a long time, but he he was   a Wasabi, like,   documentation   contributor.  

And so he knows the ins and outs of Wasabi   and then was, you know, also working with Samurowel to also address issues or implement new things and   was a shill for that as well. So he he's seen both sides and joined market. So he's done the research,   from an unbiased perspective.   At least in my opinion, as unbiased as I can see it.   So he's got the research there.   James, if you wanna go take a look at his stuff, hopefully, he'll post he's listening, and he'll post his, his links.   But,   yeah, I mean, there's it's not a real comparison.   Like, there's no  

[01:55:09] Unknown:

It's weird that it's weird that him and 2. That him and Bitcoin p and a haven't released any kind of,   61 and 2 has coin join overview. He just posted it in the Twitch   chat. Let me see if I can copy this.   Yeah. I was about to do this. I'm gonna try and copy it over to the other chats if possible. Let me see here.  

[01:55:32] Unknown:

No. We're good. We got it. But yeah. May oh, yeah. Maybe you can post it on the over on the overlay.  

[01:55:40] Unknown:

But I I   I the the the thing is is, first of all, we do need a if if 60 I mean, I know 61 2 is listening or Bitcoin q and a. We need, like, we need an actual   it very clearly.   But I mean, I I would say   that the the main difference is,   the way   Whirlpool is set up is it's set up in a way to try and reduce user error.   And with the Wasabi way, you can use it in a relatively secure way, but you have to be a very advanced user to do that.   And and the cool part about Samurai is that they kind of just hold your hand,   why why you're going through that process. Would you would you agree on that, Telco?  



[01:56:29] Unknown:

Yeah. No. A 100%. I mean,   you know, the what they try to get away with in the beginning,   or what what was Sabi tried to do different was that they wanted mass outputs to confuse the   to confuse   the actual analysis of the   of the coin join.   But that doesn't work when it's just a banana peel, right, and it's just peeling.   I really do recommend everyone going through   and either reading   either reading   6 one zero two's write up Mhmm. Or, or take a look at Ergo's work.   I know Ergo is part of, like, the Samura team, but when you read it, you you see facts. You know, at at the end of the day, you wanna see facts. And if you don't believe them because you want a unbiased thing, I go back to my previous point of, like, you know, run it yourself and see. Like, run test net or if you wanna put your coins through there, sure.   You know, just   try it out and see the outputs,   and see   and start breaking it down and try to try to compare and contrast what   OXT research team is talking about and then understand what why they're wrong or they're right.  

Because really, ultimately, I mean, Bitcoin used to be about don't trust, verify. Right? So, like, that's what we should get back to.   Other than that, I mean, like, I think we've   we've beat Whirlpool   to a pulp.   It's a  

[01:57:59] Unknown:

Okay. So so   so the freaks might know that I'm very good at Twitter search.   It's one of my strong suits. When when my grandkids ask me,   Matt, how did you   how are you so successful? I'll be like,   you know, Twitter search. Like, people just have to know what to type in.   So here, to anyone who's watching,   this was the Twitter hacker who we found out today got the the   he got the book thrown at him. He got charged with 3 years in prison,   which I would just say,   if if what the Twitter hacker in in the summer did was so bad for our society,   maybe Twitter should have faced some kind of punishment   for allowing   a fucking kid to access their their their closely guarded systems and have admin access to everything they fucking do   and and do what he did. Right?  

But that being said, this is the Twitter act hackers flow.   And what happened was he put his Bitcoin through Wasabi.   He did everything   security wise,   and the Internet, he did correctly.   The Bitcoin scam is what fucked him. What fucked him was he decided that he was gonna try and scam people for Bitcoin on Twitter,   and he received that Bitcoin, and all of a sudden that Bitcoin became a tracking beacon for let's   fuck this kid. And he put it through Wasabi. And what did he do after he put it through Wasabi?   He pressed the select all button that is in Wasabi,   and he sent that all to the next address. And as you can see in the video, if if you're watching the live video,   you can see that he just strictly you just take the amount that went into Wasabi and you subtract that   by by the amount that went out,   and with with the change combined, and then you have you have his path. And it was very easy to track him through that mix.  

That's what the FBI did, and they threw the book at him. So this is this is what happens Okay.   Well,   good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm Okay. Well, good software doesn't let you use it wrong, and I'm not advocating for crime. I don't think he should be.   I don't think criminals,   should get away with their crimes, but I think that if people expect privacy from software, they should get privacy from software. And and this is a perfect example of why Wasabi is broken. The Wasabi people know it's broken, and that's why they're trying to create a whole new fucking algorithm instead yeah.  

[02:00:43] Unknown:

I I think you hate it. I don't really have yeah, I I think you hit that   on the hood. I don't really have much.  

[02:00:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I don't expect you guys to add much to that because that was, that was a little bit brutal. It's a good rant. Okay. I could be credit. So, I would like to go to lightning. So I think lightning is   probably the best post mix tool that we have available to us.   And you, samurai, people are against lightning, so   justify justify your lack of interest in lightning to me.  

[02:01:13] Unknown:

I'll add a little tidbit,   and then I'll let, like, Woah, comment some, and then maybe I'll comment back in because I feel like I talk a lot. But   I, personally, I think the principle   of lightning   is cool. Like, I think it's good. Right? Like, the the concept,   right,   is people wanna spend Bitcoin. That is fucking great. Like, that   I'm all for people spending Bitcoin.   I don't really care   whether it's with lightning or whether it's with on chain.   I think that   the   overall, like,   that lightning is this holy grail of a fix   is not quite accurate.  

I think that,   you know, like, is this something we're gonna need in the future? Like, yeah. I mean, maybe. It depends on the there's a lot of factors that it depends on the future, but, you know, there's inherent risk. It's not easy,   and I think that   I just   I I think that we've been like, we've had development   in lightning for   what?   What year is it? 20 7  

[02:02:26] Unknown:

2021? 2016, I think. What? 2017  

[02:02:29] Unknown:

was the kickoff of Mainnet?   Am I am I wrong? 16 was the white paper. 16.   16 was white paper. Right?   2017 was, like, no shit Mainnet then. Right? Like, right at the new year?   So   I I mean, yeah, I I think that, like, we've been in this for a long time and we still see a lot of issues. Right?   And I don't see a ton of actual usage. Right? Like,   if it was the the savior that it was supposed to be. Right? Because we gotta think about what lightning actually man, I said this is gonna be short, but it's not.   Oh, we had to think about what lightning, why it came about. Right? Like, why it it, like,   kicked off into development and then why it got rushed. In my opinion, I felt like it got rushed into mainnet. It got rushed into, like, this whole, like, adoption, and everyone put it up on this giant pedestal   immediately. Right? Like, we didn't even see that with Taproot.  

Like, we saw Lightning be put up like this god of software. And   even right now, right, like, if you look at coin cards or at, like, bit refill, like, you're looking at the bottom of the barrel for, like, of all of their different currencies that they accept, cryptocurrencies they accept,   it's, like, the least,   it's the least used, which   should be, like, worrisome for anybody that's, like, I'm not saying that you're not super bullish. Right?   Like, you could be super super bullish on, like, the outcome of it.   But   are you super bullish on it, like, currently right now? Because I don't see a ton of people using it. I see it as, like, a novelty.  

You know, people like the idea,   and   maybe we can,   you know, maybe you can use some. I find it   difficult that you need to lock up funds   in a channel,   And that from there,   you know, maybe you can spend it. Maybe you don't you don't know how much, and you never know how much you're actually gonna need until the time that you need it. Right? So   then you end up having to lock up more than you need to, so on and so forth. I I don't know. I see different issues,   but it's been a while since I've been in the lightning game. But I don't know. Like, like, what do you have anything to add to lightning?  

[02:04:43] Unknown:

I can't say anything bad about lightning, to be honest, because   I   I have used it   myself. I know man likes it, and   it has a future   even though it doesn't have a lot of, you know, volume going into it   compared to other things. But,   long term, it it it should have some it it should have a future. And I know if I if I talk shit about it, Evan is not gonna buy me of your next new meeting in my secret. We're we're we're all gonna fucking   throw you to the wolves if you talk shit to the white man. No. No. Lightning Lightning Network is is good. It's I think, you know, it it it could improve, but I think   the movement in terms of community involvement, a lot of, you know, a lot of wallets out there   are very, very strong, and a lot of people are just putting a lot of work into it.  

You're You know, I know I know some of them, you don't wanna you don't wanna add it into, you know, into Ronan.   And, you know, I I you know, I respect that. You know, we don't wanna the reason why maximalist.   No. I no. Don't worry. Maximalist.  

[02:05:47] Unknown:

You you refuse you refuse to understand that Lightning is one of the best   post mix tools that we have available to us. You go through coin join,   and you're able to spend off chain and it never goes on chain. Is it fucking massive?   No. The thing is, you know, it's It's it's it's it's not it doesn't replace CoinJoin. It is it is   a valuable addition to CoinJoin. This is what, like, the open noms of the world realize. My perspective is we're on a whole different level.  

[02:06:18] Unknown:

My perspective is, you know, if if if we were to add it to running Dojo or whatever, you know, I think that if you're going to be running, Lightning Network, that's all you should be running on a on a single board computer. Nothing else.  

[02:06:30] Unknown:

Because if you try to run, you know, Lightning Network with, Samurai Dojo, with Menpool, with Spector Yeah. I mean, I don't think you guys I don't think you guys should have lightning implemented. I think people if if if if you're running coinjoin 247,   then   that should be   isolated. And I think if you're running your own lightning node or your own routing node   247 online,   that should be isolated.   It should be isolated. This idea this idea that you're gonna have everything on a single online computer is fucking ridiculous. Well, Matt, that's a bad way. Situation, you should have   you should have   everything on a on a dedicated computer. But that being said,   if you're if you're a Lightning fan and you trust the Ronin devs, like, maybe you should be able to opt in for for Lightning in that respect, you know. You know, you have So if I I I should be able to have 2 Ronin Dojos running, one running  

[02:07:27] Unknown:

only CoinJoin and one running Lightning. Right? The only way that if we were to add Lightning Network, I would have to,   dose Selco with some LSD   and eventually tie him up in a basement   for him to agree on it. But if we were to eventually add it, it would be in a way where you couldn't run Samurai Dojo at the same time with Lightning Network.   That's the thing. Because   you can't   like like you said, you have a you gotta have a dedicated   node that runs Lightning Network,   a dedicated node that runs Ronin Dojo,   or my note, whatever, you know, about Samurai Dojo specifically.  

Because if you try to run everything, like, most people just wanna click on everything. They wanna install every application that's available or whatever, you know, Umbro, My Note. And this is one of the problems that they have. You know? Everyone wants to install everything and, you know, they want to add everything in the kitchen sink. Right? I mean, that's a problem because some of these these machines, they can't handle all the all the resources that are being put into it. So it becomes very unstable.   So if you want to run Lightning Network, set up a node that's specifically   going to be dedicated for that. If you want to run run-in Dojo, set up a node that's that's gonna be specifically set up for that,   Not both at the same time.  

But I'll let I'll let I'll let Telco, you know, chime in and, you know, give his opinion. I know he  

[02:08:48] Unknown:

he's cursing me out right now. Right? So the one thing I'll be honest. There was there was a moment of weakness   that I almost implemented,   implemented Lightning,   directly into the Dojo stack. Like, I mean, like, into Dojo,   because we have a fork. Like, if other people don't know that, we are very transparent about it. Like, we fork it based on, like, what we need.   We maintain with upstream.   But, Evan from Zeus, who I know you've has been on SIDO Dispatch, He's a New York guy. I know. Shout out to fucking you guys. But, yeah, he was he was trying to help me out. And the the whole principle of why I was, like, thinking about that idea   was for   toxic change,   not so much for Postmates tools.  

I don't know if I necessarily like,   I get where you're coming from, Matt. Like, I get the idea of, like, you do a coin you you do,   Whirlpool,   and then, hey, you're in post mix. Now you do a Kahoots into a lightning channel. Right?   In theory, like, yeah. Sure. Like, that that could work. Like, I don't see why anyone should not do that. But,   I mean, other unless you don't trust Lightning. That's up to you. How much funds do you wanna put in the Lightning? But,   what I was looking at it specifically for is, like, if we could have a way to specifically   segregate out that toxic change   from that TX 0,   toxic change, and then that can go into Lightning.  

My biggest thing that I see with Lightning right now, right, is that   so much of it are, like, the best wallets that we have.   They're I mean, they're custodial. Right? Like, custodial wallets are are so much easier, faster,   that you get preloaded with   with liquidity.   Like, if I if I'm, like, not if I'm, like, a brand new user,   right, brand new user, I'm a plead from, you know, wherever, no coiner, and then I become a big I'm like, hey. I wanna buy Bitcoin. It's almost like, dude, you gotta try lightning.   Right? You want them to have that instant satisfaction   of like, hey. This is how it works.  

And then you're not waiting to pay a fee.   There's not   you're not, like, waiting for your your liquidity to get confirmed on chain.   You you just wanna show them, hey, you can pay low fees. Right?   So   that's where that's where I see I see a lot a bigger future in lightning with   custodial   wallets.   Well And, again, I I don't wanna I don't wanna ask for nothing.  

[02:11:35] Unknown:

We we have there there are wallets like Phoenix and Breeze that are, like, treading the middle ground where   it's it's easy to access,   and it's not custodial   exactly. It's like,   quasi it's like quasi custodial. It's it it's you're connecting to their their routing nodes, but,   technically, they don't hold the price.  

[02:11:58] Unknown:

So let me answer a question to Jesse.   He's asking, what if I have a note and I run multiple things on there, Mike. So is that okay? Yeah. This is Mary. Alright. So you gotta be careful. You you your my advice is look at the   you know, how the system is working. You know? Look at your free memory.   Look if you're swapping. Depending on how much software you have on there, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna take up too many resources   because you're going to have, a lot of instability if your CPU   is is going up,   especially if your system starts swapping. So you wanna be careful on that. So you want to try to only enable the things that you're actually going to use.  

So for instance, if you're going to be, you know, using something very often, enable that. If you're just installing something just to install in it, don't install it. Make sure it's something you're going to be using, but do not do too much. Samurai Dojo is is is resource intensive.  

[02:12:56] Unknown:

You know, lightning network, whatever your shoes on there is is gonna use up a lot of resources. I mean, I I don't even think the issue is the resources. Right? The issue is just basic threat modeling. Like, if you have   if you have 2 things that are of value,   if you split them up, then they have to separately attack   both of those things. If you have them on the same fucking device, then they just have to attack one device, and they get Yeah. You have you have one layer of you you have one layer of entry right there. Right? A very it's a very simple concept. Like, you wanna split up   your your your   your your value. Your the the value you have, you wanna split up. You don't want all your value to be in one place. You don't want someone to walk into a home and just have   all the money just sitting in a single closet. You want it to be in multiple closets  

[02:13:45] Unknown:

in different houses. Right? And and that's very true, you know. And and and the thing is, you know, people,   they they they think setting up a Raspberry Pi, you know, a Rock Pro 60 4 is very, very hard. But it really isn't, you know? It's you have to just have keep an open mind. There's a lot of resources out there. I I eventually, I'm gonna be writing guides on how to set up, you know, these types of devices for yourself.   But, you have to just, you know, not not think of it as rocket science. You know? These are tiny computers. I know, but they're they're really not that hard to set up.  

[02:14:16] Unknown:

So I love you both.   I think now is a great time to talk about KYC.   Before we talk about KYC, I just wanna do a quick little video from DISC, and then we'll talk about it.  

[02:14:30] Unknown:

There are many places to buy Bitcoin.   They collect your personal information   and jeopardize your privacy.   K y c is the illicit activity.   This is open source.   It does not collect user data.   You keep your private keys.   Create or take offers to trade peer to peer. And keep your Bitcoin private and secure.  

[02:15:02] Unknown:

So why shouldn't users   that was bisque. Why shouldn't user why should users be concerned about KYC,   and   why should they care?  

[02:15:12] Unknown:

Is this is a good one. So,   you know, funny story. So, like, my I have family friends that   family and friends that are, like,   well off now.   A lot of them are older family members and stuff that that have a lot of money. And so, you know, they're now that they see the bull market again, they're getting super excited. Right?   And, you know, they they see me as someone that can, you know, guide them through the waters.   I tell them to just listen to TFTC, but they didn't listen. Here we go. Anyways   anyways, the   you know, so they always ask. Right? And they're on Coinbase or Pro and they're, you know or Swan or whatever.  

And it's sound like, you know, when we get down to it,   I I started to talk to him about, hey, like because it kills me a little bit inside   every time that we talk about KYC because   it's inherently, like, against everything that I believe. You know? Like, as a person that had been there,   you know, I would rather someone that learned from my mistakes.   Right? I would rather someone that   doesn't just fold to the easiest thing available. And I get that that need that that's a   an inevitable,   route that is going to always be in Bitcoin. Like, the easiest path to get Bitcoin is always gonna be there, and that easiest path is always gonna involve compliance.   Right?  

But as I started to talk to these people that that had all this money and that wanted to buy Bitcoin, and I started to explain some of the different,   you know, the different risks and the different,   advantages to buying no KYC. Right? Like, if you buy no KYC   and you buy it with cash, who knows that you have it?   And they were like,   no one? And I was like, exactly.   Right? So, like, if no one knows that you have it, and then one day you go to sell and you sell it to someone else for cash, who knows that you have it? Or who knows that you made that transaction? They go, no one. Like, exactly.   Right? Like, that that's the kind of stuff that forward thinking and and not to mention, right, you don't wanna be on the list.  

No one no one in Bitcoin,   no one in general should wanna be on a list. Right? Like, in America, you could go back to 2,001.   Right?   And go back to, like, you don't wanna be on a no fly list. Right? So that's bad. That's a bad day.   Same thing. Right? Let's move forward. Right? Like, you don't wanna be on a you had to buy your guns and register them. We're gonna kinda small plug into guns and Bitcoin.   Like, you don't wanna you don't wanna own firearms that are gonna throw you on a list that the government owns.   Right? Because one day, maybe not right now, the US government's pretty shady when it comes   to the timing and the,   and the the longevity. Right? Like, they they take their time   to to take privacy and to take take things away from you. Right? It's never it's never immediate.  

But So you don't you don't wanna be on a list. So, like, if you're on a KYC list, right, unless you sell this KYC   this KYC stats back,   right, you're always you're always there. You're always on the list. You're always gonna be someone that, say, 6102 happens, shut up, 6102 happens,  

[02:18:33] Unknown:

and they they should come they gotta come for your Bitcoin. Right? Like I love that. They're, like, they're, like, stealing your Bitcoin. They're stealing your Bitcoin, and as they're stealing your Bitcoin, you're, like, shout out 6102.   Yeah.   That's the first thing I'm a do. I'm I swear I'll do it. The reason I ask these questions is for the same it's like I so I asked the same question   of last week. We had   lightning we had lightning focused people, and I said, why lightning? Right?   And I the reason I asked these questions is because we need to   we we we need to fine tune our messaging.  

This idea that just the compliance pros care about marketing is a ridiculous idea. We will never admit it,   but we need to have fine tuned,   messaging   for our audience.   And   with with with KYC, the key is is it's not a Bitcoin thing.   Our whole world is KYC'd.   They are literally   the powers that are be I said they. I know I said they.   The royal they.   It it it is   the the government and the powers that be   are making sure that everything we do in our lives are identified and cataloged.   This idea that   if you go to the mall,   that person is cataloged into a database somewhere, that person went to the mall.  

This is this is a commonplace thing that is happening across every facet of our society, whether that's you're leaving the country,   whether that's you're entering a city,   whether that's,   you're showing up at a building and and and to go into some random office or some some shit like that,   or or you're leaving the country.   All these things are   cataloged and decided who does what.   And it creates the situation where we're gonna have databases   that basically,   catalog every single action that we do as a free individual, and that   basically takes away our our complete freedom.  

And and with Bitcoin, it's to the extreme, because with Bitcoin, if we don't take any actions after after the fact,   our transactions can be counted indefinitely. So once once they have us in the system   and then we move into Bitcoin,   they can follow us through all of our Bitcoin transactions, and they can follow anyone we transact with,   by proxy. So,   if I pay if I decide   to go into Bitcoin Black Cab, I fly over to London,   they see I bought a ticket,   I'm flying to London. They know I'm going to Europe. I get to Europe.   I call a taxi. It's the only taxi that accepts Bitcoin, and then all of a sudden, Bitcoin black cab, they know he picked me up at that time, you know, and I paid him Bitcoin.  

So   so all those things together, like, it becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly, in my opinion, that if you care about freedom,   you care about privacy. And you have to   push back against these these   requests for private information for every single fucking thing we do. If we don't if we that's the first step. If we don't push back against that,   it becomes very difficult for us to have privacy in any other aspect of our life.  

[02:22:08] Unknown:

I mean, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it goes back to,   the,   you know, using   non Googled phones. Right? Like, using those things and disabling all this up. Like, do everything that you can.   Right? Taking small steps, but do everything you can   to take back your freedom, right, to take back your privacy because   because that stuff is gonna slowly increase. Right? Like like I said, governments aren't stupid. Right? Especially in America,   right, where we're a bunch of hard headed assholes   that love our freedom. They know not to   just up and take everyone's guns. They know not to just up and, you know, restrict everyone's freedoms   overnight.  

Right? I'm I'm gonna ignore the the lockdowns before I get, like, shit on for the lockdowns.   You know, they they know not to do that because they know that it's too inherent in the American values to to fight that kind of   oppression.   So what what do they do? Right? It's small   incremental attacks   over time. And   the the scariest part about all of that is that most of it   most of   those freedom attacks, most of that data that's getting pulled doesn't come from the government.   It's Twitter. It's Facebook.   It's   all of the and that's, like, I guess, kinda why some people, like, prefer Telegram. Right? Like, it's   it's based out of Russia. Right? So some people, like, I trust Russia more than I do trust the American government with my information or American companies with my information.  

But, ultimately,   it goes back to that, like, you know, diverters   mentioned it, like, use the tools. Right? Like, use matrix, use   Mastodon or whatever it is. They're not gonna it's never gonna have the same   level of following.   Right?   But, you know, you have to understand the risk that you're taking. You have to understand   that   you're you're giving up something, and so that goes with KYC and it goes with Bitcoin.   Are you okay with   buying your Bitcoin   and giving up and associating   your identity   with that UTXO?   Right?   Now   that UTXO or that amount that you bought, say, on Coinbase or whatever, that is gonna stay in their logs for however long.  

But   let's, like   you know, you could say, hey. I'm gonna coin join. I'm gonna move the coins. It's gonna break my, you know, break my deterministic lengths, and they're not gonna know how I spend afterwards. And you're like, yeah. That that is 100% true. They're not gonna know how you spend afterwards, but they're gonna know that you had x amount.   You know, they're gonna know that you bought x amount on on that exchange.   You know? So   when you buy no KYC from day 1   or whenever you buy no KYC, number 1, you should keep those funds separate.   You always keep your KYC versus no KYC separated. And when you do that,   you are now,   you're you're one step ahead in the privacy game.  

Right? Like, should you sell coin join? Absolutely. Should you still do use your Postmates tools? Absolutely.   But   what like, you by you not associating an identity to   to the amount of coin that you have that UTXO,   you've now taken us a a greater step forward. You're in an even bigger battle,   and you just wanna even battle by not starting out giving up your identity.   So, like, that that to me, like, that should be the most paramount thing.   And,   you know,   shilling   you know,   it's a painful thing. Like, I I I feel like you're in a bad spot, Matt.   Like, haven't like, I think that, like, you and Lavera have a lot of respect for well, like, I think you and Lavera and there's a lot of people who are in this boat, right, that, like, understand   the benefits in that   in the advantage to having no KYC coin.  

Right?   But   there's also the argument to say,   hey. Like, we need more people in Bitcoin in general. I would rather   sacrifice I mean their KYC.  

[02:26:26] Unknown:

I'm not I'm not saying you're saying you wanna sacrifice their KYC, but I would I would I would I would love I love Stefan, but I feel like throwing him in the same boat is a little bit,   Oh, do it. Do it. You won't. No. I know. I'm I won't. I won't. I I love Stefan. I I my my point is my point is   is is I I don't think   that I'm   I   if I if I thought that I was throwing people into the KYC   fucking juggernaut without   explaining the risk to them, then I wouldn't do what I do.  

[02:27:01] Unknown:

That's fair.  

[02:27:03] Unknown:

And and it's not and, like, I don't I wouldn't even knock you if you didn't. And here's why. I I I prefer I prefer if a user bought KYC Bitcoin over nothing.   Exactly. And that's that's exactly and that's that's my to pump my own back. That's for them. That's for the user. I actually think the user's better off owning Bitcoin than not owning Bitcoin.  

[02:27:22] Unknown:

Exactly. And and, like, I'm guilty of this too. Right? Like, going back to my story, like, these people that want,   like, advice and and and,   on Bitcoin. Right? Like,   ultimately, like, they wanna buy Bitcoin,   and they wanna buy Bitcoin the easiest way.   Most of them most normal people don't care about KYC. They don't think twice.  

[02:27:44] Unknown:

They'll but they do care, dude. They do because Some do. Like like, so so so so recently,   what I've been doing is   is is people ask me, okay. Like, I wanna like, I'm finally ready to buy. Right?   I don't even bought like, to be like, I'm just gonna admit like, to be quite honest, like, I'm not gonna tell   some rando   to use Bisq or use Huddl Huddl or use no KYC. Like, I just tell them I tell them to go to Swan. Right? So I say go to Swan Bitcoin.   And and and that way, you're just dollar cross averaging into Bitcoin. There's no shit coins, no whatever.   And they hit the KYC wall. Right?  

And they go, Matt,   this KYC is horrible.   It is ridiculous,   like, what I need to what I require.   And I actually   think that's, like, a great educational experience.   Right? Because, like Yeah. The reason the KYC exists is because they wanna use their bank account.   Like, it has nothing to do with Bitcoin. It has everything to do with the the the traditional financial system.   Them them hitting that wall and going,   oh my god.   Like, the government's requiring me to give all this fucking information to this random ass dollar cost averaging company called Swan Bitcoin   is is is blasphemous.  

That's a ridiculous concept.   Like, that realization   almost sells them on Bitcoin itself.  

[02:29:23] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I I I definitely agree. I think that everyone goes through a journey,   and, you know, I mean, that that's how,   you know, the majority of Bitcoiners   started. I mean, like, if you gotta think if you were, I guess,   in the class of 2015,   right, or 2014, 2015. Right? Like,   you were   alright. Or 2016, I guess, would be better. You know, you you were just like, yeah. Let me get Bitcoin. Right? And then you learn, and then you go through the pains.   And I and I've talked about this with a lot of people. It's like,   it's a people a lot of people need to learn through, like, getting burned. Right? Like, if you try to explain to people and and, like, ultimately, like, they kinda get it, but they don't truly understand when we say not your keys, not your Bitcoin.  

Like, a lot of people don't really   understand   why,   like, had like, owning it makes sense. So you have to put it in a way it makes sense to them. But,   you know, the same thing. It it's a journey,   and that's why I don't fight it, you know, when people are like, I just wanna get Bitcoin right now. I want the easiest way to get it at this price before the price goes up. I wanna get it immediately and da da da. And and I get it. You know? Like, I don't normally fight them.   I have had some people that were like, holy shit. Like, I wanna buy, you know, 50 k of Bitcoin right now. And I'm like, I can't supply that. But,  

[02:30:53] Unknown:

It's only 1 Bitcoin.  

[02:30:55] Unknown:

It's less than 1. It's, like, 29. This was before it was 1 Bitcoin. 90,000,000 sats, bro.   Yeah. Before that was before. That was before it was,   you know,   But either way, you know, it's like   because they they understood understood the benefit. Right? And not everyone gets it, and it and it takes time,   and it takes time for people to to go down the rabbit hole. And that's part of our   I don't wanna say duty   because I got out of that. I I remember being all about, like, educating people and teaching all the normies that I work with or whoever I came in contact with.   It becomes a big hassle. You know, it becomes a big and I and I give respect to you, Matt, and, like, other people that do this where it's like,   man, like, especially, like, you when you go from a bull market to a bear market. And then all the people that you're, like, no shit friends with are like, you know, what the fuck?  

And you just have to be, like, go back to the fundamentals of Bitcoin, and if they got into it assets.   Yeah. Like, and if they got into it for for, you know, the wrong reason,   then they're just sitting there disgruntled and pissed,   You know? But,   ultimately,   you know, the like, if   if they're gonna buy KYC,   like, they're gonna buy KYC, you know, and   our job is to make sure oh god. Hold on.   Guys, if you guys if you find can we just Hey. Jake, can you say hi? I can. Say hi, Spider Man.   Say hi.  

[02:32:27] Unknown:

No? You don't hit me? Hey, Spider Man. Okay. What's up, Spider Man?  

[02:32:31] Unknown:

Sorry. I'm gonna beat up. My bad. Hold on. I love it.  

[02:32:34] Unknown:

Listen. If you buy KYC,   be prepared to pay taxes. There's just no way out of it. Unless you're gonna freaking, you know, take a risk,   you're gonna have to pay taxes. And that's the way out of it.   That is. I mean, hey. You're gonna buy KYC.   You're gonna have to deal with the consequences. Right? Yeah. I mean, we had we had the former  

[02:32:57] Unknown:

the former Fed chair. It was almost   the clip that we started this episode with, but she wasn't.   And she said   the main thing that the US dollar has over cryptocurrencies   is   that the US dollar doesn't have capital gains taxes when you spend it. And I thought twofold, I thought, okay,   you created those taxes. And second fold,   we only pay capital gains taxes because our money increases in value.   So   that's great that you have a money that just loses money loses value every fucking year. Of course, you don't have to pay fucking taxes on it.  

[02:33:36] Unknown:

Time out. Time out. Time out. Can I just say how fucking stupid that is?   Like,   if you spend Bitcoin as a currency,   you get tax capital gains. Can we just say how how, like, absolutely   stupid?  

[02:33:49] Unknown:

Like, that is the dumbest thing to do with that. That it's stupid, but I also   I know I'm running a a live show here where anything can be said,   but these are not the type of discussions I want to have on the show.   So,   because this is all this is all this is all forever, and I do not want this to be   forever. So I will not we will not discuss we will not discuss this topic,   and we will continue on.   Do you guys have any opinion on Taproot?   Either view.  

[02:34:24] Unknown:

Like, well, you can take it if if you want.  

[02:34:28] Unknown:

I I'm more about,   a lot equals true. So  

[02:34:32] Unknown:

What does that mean? Law equals true. See what's Sensor or doubt. Fuck you, 6102. I would like, you come out you come out publicly and have a conversation about taxes. 6102. Why you leave Telegram? That's all I wanna know.   Let let's let's let's hear, let's what do you what do you think   about Taproot? Do you have you guys either either of you guys have opinions on Taproot?  

[02:34:56] Unknown:

I don't have that much of opinion on it. I think that   it shouldn't become it it shouldn't come to a big mess where   everyone has to basically   commit to something that might not come true.   That's my opinion.   It's just you know, it it seems that there is a a lot of dre sauce on it. People are, you know, trying to   basically commit to it and there there all these requirements, and   I think it should just go through.  

[02:35:29] Unknown:

What do you what do you think, Zelco?   You have an opinion on Taproot?  

[02:35:34] Unknown:

I mean,   I know that the the majority of the benefit comes   to MultiSig users. Right?   I I know it's not the only one, and   I would like to hear your opinion on it.   You know, I'm not,   you know, I'm not crazy,   you know, for or against anything.   If it's a benefit   to,   you know, to overall Bitcoin, then, yeah, like, let's do it. But,   because I I feel like in in Bitcoin in general, right, like, to try to get I guess it's a benefit in general. Right? Like We want Taproot. I think we want Taproot.  

[02:36:14] Unknown:

I think Yeah.   Our our boys over at Samurai want Taproot, but they're just so broken that they just don't wanna participate.   I think they I think, like, T Dev I think T Dev wants Taproot. Like, I think I think it benefits Samurai.  

[02:36:28] Unknown:

I'm not I won't speak for T Dev. I'm sure I'm sure, like   I'm sure that if,   if   Taproot,  

[02:36:38] Unknown:

if Taproot's beneficial to samurai, like, they're already testing. Like, there's no doubt. But but my point is they're still broken. My point is they're so broken that they're just, like, I just don't wanna   I won't believe it until I see it.  

[02:36:51] Unknown:

That's fair. I mean Which is, like, fine. Think but what was the last major in event   in, like, innovation in Bitcoin, right, with Segway?  

[02:37:00] Unknown:

Yo. If if I had to rely if if I had to rely on Bitcoin upgrades, I would be the most broken motherfucker ever. Like,  

[02:37:05] Unknown:

motherfucker ever. Like But what about the people that that think about, you know, Bitcoin by default is not private. Right? That rule is gonna ask some kind of, you know, a bit of privacy into it. Right?  

[02:37:15] Unknown:

Imagine imagine imagine being someone who cared about Bitcoin privacy and you just have, like, all the compliance bros just, like, constantly just fucking And they're gonna be they're gonna be, oh my god. Smacking you in the balls over and over again, and, like, that's what t dev and fucking samurai had to deal with. And and it is what it is. But my point is is that they both   whether or not they will admit it, they both want Taproot to happen, and we're gonna make Taproot happen. It's gonna happen.   It might be the last thing that happens, but it will happen, and, it'll be a massive improvement for Bitcoin. I agree with that. I think there's a big chance that it will happen.  

It's gonna happen. There's there's there's pretty much no inertia against it. So I think it'll happen, and I think it'll be very good for Bitcoin privacy.   But but to be absolutely clear, like,   Bitcoin privacy sucks.   So it's it's it's easy to have a massive improvement for Bitcoin privacy.  

[02:38:13] Unknown:

Yeah.   I mean,   from from what I from what I understand and I'm I'm not gonna sit here and tell all your users that I'm, like, super in-depth on on Taproot, and that's mostly because   I I don't know. It it always seemed hyped that it'll happen, and we've been hearing about it for so long.   But,   I mean, it like I said, if it's a net like you said, if it's a net negative or a net positive rather so if it's a net positive for Bitcoin privacy, like, you you will see it, and we'll see it in Samurais.   And then, yeah, we'll we'll make all the changes. And,   ultimately, like, anything that's beneficial for our privacy, we need to start taking   It blows my mind that we've been   in this game for this long,   and we don't see things Like, we see massive changes in   in,   you know,   benefits   that happen from the wallet level. Like, why why in the world   are there things that   wallets are doing that are net benefit to Bitcoin   that are not implemented at the core level   is beyond me. You know, like   like, we talked about bit 47. What we're about, bro.  



[02:39:27] Unknown:

I mean, it's more difficult.   Right? Obviously.  

[02:39:31] Unknown:

If if Yeah. I mean, I and like I said, it's probably a a positive. Right?   Being harder to change the core code is probably better. Right? Like, it's, more stable.   It's,   less risk adverse.  

[02:39:45] Unknown:

That's a value prop. Stable  

[02:39:47] Unknown:

a stable core,   core repo, but, like,   like,   Bitcoin as a whole   I I don't know. I'm I'm kinda torn torn on it. I think,   you know, I think all the best changes happen, like, from what I've seen over the past,   you know, 4 years, the best changes happen at the wallet level. I mean, no one asked   no no one asked Core if they could do like, once,   I guess, I I was about to say lightning, but I guess I couldn't use that as an example. No. Lightning's a perfect example.  

[02:40:19] Unknown:

Once we have segue, we're able segue. We need a segue. We need segue. Yeah. I know. It's not not an example. We need a massive we need a massive war in order to to enable lightning. Yes. That's fair.  

[02:40:34] Unknown:

Yeah. But, like, here we are. We're at the same spot. Hey. This is a big change at core. It's a huge change. You know? I mean, it's pretty big. That route is a pretty big change at the core level.  

[02:40:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, we'll see. I'm excited for it. If it, if it happens, let's, let's,   you know, let's make it happen. But,   yeah, overall, I mean, I think the core devs like, core devs really need to   be be really thinking about the privacy side. Like, I I really   it blows my mind that, like, we've seen hardware wallet   improvements to Bitcoin core before we've seen   privacy   improvements.   Like,   that doesn't even make sense. Like, there are bips that are out there that would improve Bitcoin privacy   across   across all wallets from a core level   that we could implement,   but we choose to do other like, add other things that are not nearly as important.  

Now I don't have to say hardware wallets aren't important, but, like, hardware wallet interface from the core wallet, like like,   it's good. I'm not I know you're a hardware wallet guy, but, like, honestly, I would rather I think privacy is more important in my personal opinion. Yeah. Well, we're not fucking competing.   We're competing.  

[02:41:56] Unknown:

We're not competing. We're not we're we're showing up, bro.  

[02:42:02] Unknown:

I'm I mean, I don't know. I'm 100% in the same boat as Ergo with, being a samurai Maxi, but,   I mean, don't don't get me wrong. I have a very, very, very small amount   on card cold card,  

[02:42:16] Unknown:

and I'm impressed. I have a very large amount both in samurai Right. Cold card. Okay?  

[02:42:21] Unknown:

So It's it's a very small amount, but it's there. It's mostly there so I can test Spectre.   So, you know, whatever.  

[02:42:29] Unknown:

The the point is is Matt's money is where his mouth is.  

[02:42:33] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I give you Matt. I give you credit, Matt. You're not we're not Yeah. We're not completely it is don't believe it. It is a partnership.  

[02:42:40] Unknown:

It it Matt, what is what is   your thoughts on bit 47,  

[02:42:44] Unknown:

reusable payment codes? It makes no sense. It makes and the problem with bit 47 is that only Samurais supports it.   That's that's that's the I I I mean, that that's that's the major issue. It's a major issue if you're trying to accept donations. If you're trying to accept donations and you need the person to not only have an Android phone, but they have to have this specific fucking app   to donate to you is an issue. That's a that's a fucking massive issue.   Yeah. I agree with that. Not Tamara's fault. That is it's ridiculous that no one else offers BIP 46. This is very ridiculous. To the   point where it's it's it's pretty fucking funny because,   I'm Matt Odell, so I have I have some   some ability to,   people ask me to be an adviser,   but, like, I just say all this shit publicly,   you know, publicly. Add BIP 47. Like, what do you what do you think I'm telling the people I have buy? I'm just like, add BIP 47. Like, can you add BIP 47? Can you add It's unbelievable, Odessa.  

I literally everything I say on the podcast is what I tell people privately   when,   they they ask me to be an adviser. Like, I literally just I just repeat exactly what I say publicly.  

[02:44:01] Unknown:

But it's   amazing that none of these wallets it's amazing that none of these wallets offer this feature where,   you know, you can literally just have increase your privacy tenfold just by using bit 47.   Yeah. I mean, you know People are really amazing.  

[02:44:18] Unknown:

People are I mean, yeah, I just talked about this on a on a different podcast. Like, the   the fact that I mean, we we talked about licensing   and the fact   that Samura is open source and anybody can utilize the tools that they have,   but we don't see the adoption across any other wallets.   Like, we don't see Postmixed tools. We don't see added adding Whirlpool. Like, they can add Whirlpool.   Right? They can absolutely   add Whirlpool to   sorry. The banner was funny.  

[02:44:50] Unknown:

There's a very can add Whirlpool to  

[02:44:53] Unknown:

to any other wallet and just jump into the same liquidity pool. They can add the post mix tools. They can do all those things. And in fact, Samara wallet wants those people to do that because it's a net benefit to everyone.   And we don't see it because of   ego   and politics.   Like, that's not where we should be in Bitcoin. That's not where we should be at this time and space in Bitcoin,   and we should see people   trying to add the best tools   to the to the at the wallet level since core dev's going back to core dev. Since they don't wanna add these things, that's totally cool. But the wallets, the wallet developers should be adding those things. Like, why are we not there? Why are we not doing that? Why are why are exchanges not adding BIP 47   so that they can just send it to, you know, to that person's BIP,   to their fucking   BIP address. Right? Like,   you never need a a new address. You never need to send to the same address. You just send to the same bit thing. It it makes perfect sense.  



[02:45:57] Unknown:

It's ridiculous.   It makes it makes me fucking live it. I'm angry, freaks.   Angry angry Matt.   Okay. He's all kinds. All kinds. Yeah. We we got we gotta we gotta finish this up. But before we finish this up,   I just want are you guys celebrating Saint Patty's tomorrow?   It's, like, my favorite holiday.  

[02:46:21] Unknown:

I love it. Green beer. Green beer.  

[02:46:24] Unknown:

I'm not going to say if I'm Irish or not, but I definitely always celebrate   Saint Patty's Day.  

[02:46:32] Unknown:

I I I agree.   Everyone, regardless of nationality, should,   celebrate Saint Patty's Day,   as should everyone add BIV 47.   I don't really have,   anything to bring us together. I mean, I I'm glad that both of you guys agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever,   which is an important aspect of joining us.   So that's important.   I I I guess   one thing that I want everyone I mean, I assume neither of you guys have opinions on Liquid because you haven't used it. Right?  

[02:47:10] Unknown:

I mean, I have an like, I have a biased opinion on it based on not using it, but   I can give you my   my, you know, not using an opinion on the way. Haven't used it, you have no opinion.  

[02:47:24] Unknown:

Okay. Well, then that's fair. Yeah. You should use it. I think I think privacy focused big corners would love liquid, and I think No. That there we we need to have, like, a situation here. We have to have to make this happen. We're gonna make this happen.  

[02:47:38] Unknown:

Yeah. We'll we'll have to talk about that in the future because,  

[02:47:43] Unknown:

may maybe maybe in Miami or something, we can you can show. To Miami? Oh, so that's a good exam so so he's coming, but not he's not coming. We got him in the same way. Yo. But I'm like, well, like, well, you're gonna join us you're gonna join us in Miami for the open source workshop. I'm gonna have Ronin Dojo here. Gonna come. Me and Gareira from Ronin Doja team are gonna be there. Okay. So Guero Moneta,   I love that dude. I met him at Bitbuck Boom. He's gonna come with like, woah to Bitcoin Miami.   All the freaks should join us. Use code humble, all caps.  

They did rug pull me, but we still have 15% off, which is more than their,   10% off, which they're offering to the general plebs.   So our plebs get an additional 5% off,   and I make 0 money off of this again. I, you know, I I just do it for you guys.   There's a good chance that maybe this conference just ends up in a complete clusterfuck.   In that regard, I will just take the fucking l, and I will just shove the sword right through my heart,   and I will regret that that happened.   But my goal is to make the biggest party ever, and then that's what I think is going to fucking happen.   That being said, so we have no Saint Patty's Day celebration.  

Twitter is censoring us   probably because, like, Woah, post a bunch of titties, and they want to censor me based off of that. You guys both agree that Bitcoin's designed to pump forever.   You have no opinion on liquid.   All the freaks are gonna use code humble.   Win solo is great.   Guns and Bitcoin Guns and Bitcoin. That's something we had to cover before we leave. Guns and Bitcoin is a conference that's gonna be happening in Austin,   April what?  

[02:49:29] Unknown:

9th.  

[02:49:30] Unknown:

April 9th through what? 10th?  

[02:49:32] Unknown:

The 11th.  

[02:49:33] Unknown:

April 9th through 11th, gunsandbitcoin.com.   I have it for the people who are watching the video, gunsandbitcoin.com.  

[02:49:41] Unknown:

So it's not If you value Bitcoin privacy and your second amendment rights, go to Guns and Bitcoins.  

[02:49:47] Unknown:

Most of the samurai crew will be there. It's gonna be a fucking show. It'll be a good fucking time. If you stay there a little bit longer, you get to stay for a bit devs in Austin, which is gonna be fucking dope as fuck.   And they also have,   you University of Austin is also going to, have a conference esque thing for Bitcoin.   And Quinsolo is in the comments. Quinsolo.comquinsolo   dotcom. Great customized Bitcoin stuff.   I love both of you guys. Thank you for joining. We're gonna have you back on pretty soon. Do you have any last comments, before we we hit the freaks with a a beautiful sign off?  

[02:50:29] Unknown:

Yeah.   I just wanna say we're about to have a run-in to do a 1.9 out, that I'll give most of credit to, like, what has been crushing it.   We're gonna have a lot of new features, a lot of cool stuff, and then,   we'll be shipping out some   full nodes coming out, some   custom cases, something that most I mean, I we've been showing it on Twitter, but   something unlike anything that you guys have been seeing in the in the space.   So some new designs, some new stuff going on, and,   you know, the goal is to,   you know, bring bring privacy to everybody in an easy manner.   So   shout out to to Laquo and the rest of our team because they've been   carrying carrying the load for me.  



[02:51:19] Unknown:

Like, well, you can go. Yeah. I I just have some notes from from other people that we're talking about. So,   video for Lenox Raven said, are there ways to spend taxes change? I will say talk to Bitcoin in QA. He has a lot of resources on that.   A true Twitter said, I don't want to have a stupid Raspberry Pi on my desk to have a note running.   Why can't I have software that can spin up the software and and virtual private server? Samurai Dojo can run on x86 by default. So vanilla samurai Dojo, you can run it on x86. So you don't have to wait for Ronan Dojo.   Truth Twitter said, what are best practices of spinning out of postmates?  

Make every spin a coin joint.   So,   you know, please ask See Lightning Network if you're gonna   add lightning. If we add lightning on Golden Dojo, you'll see lightning. Don't worry. And   and somebody asked, Jenna, are open tights washer dryer safe?   You have to use Clorox bleach, and it will heat safe.   And I love the last one the last one, 1031 s is like, while still drinking?   Yes. Yes.  

[02:52:28] Unknown:

I I love that you answered all those questions because he knows   he knows the truth of where I stand on on any of the lightning implementations.  

[02:52:37] Unknown:

But I love you both. I love you both. Thank you for joining us.   This was fucking fantastic.   Bitcoin is gonna rule the world. Thank you guys for,   stepping up and running families. Like, that's fucking awesome.   I look forward to seeing you both in Bitcoin Miami for for Bitcoin 2021,   June 4th 5th. Use code humble for 15% off.   Thank you, Freaks, for joining us live.   Thank you, Freaks, for joining us not live in the podcast.   This is what it's about. We're gonna fucking win. There's a 1000000 people.   There's billions of people who have no fucking idea   what the fuck is going on, but we realize what's going on. That is fucking ridiculous. Like, this it blows my mind every day, but here we are together. I love you all. I'll see   you on Thursday for a rabbit hole recap. I'll see you next Tuesday   for the next Citadel Dispatch. We have a fucking crazy lineup for Citadel Dispatch next week. I'm never set up ahead of time, but this time, I was set up with the Ronin Dojo guys because I love them, and we were prepared ahead of time. And next week, I'm set up with Lightning Gaming. We're gonna do, like, a bunch of lightning shit. It's gonna be all about gaming and and   and killing people and   and and making stats for it, and it's gonna be a it's gonna be a lot of fun. So join us next week, but also join us for our HR on Thursday. Love you all.  



[02:54:35] Unknown:

To level to happen.   Never feel happy.  

[02:58:28] Unknown:

Let's, let's make them feel happy, freaks. I love you all.   I'll see you on Thursday for rabbit hole recap. Look forward to seeing you next Tuesday   for Bitcoin Tuesday   instead of that dispatch   episode 14.   I love you all. Have a great weekend.   Stay humble. Stack stats.