Citadel Dispatch

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support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/donate  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
EPISODE: 129
BLOCK: 841531
PRICE: 1646 sats per dollar
TOPICS: building an open competitor to major video streaming platforms, the future of nostr

project websites: https://zap.stream

Kieran on nostr: https://primal.net/p/npub1v0lxxxxutpvrelsksy8cdhgfux9l6a42hsj2qzquu2zk7vc9qnkszrqj49

website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com
nostr live chat: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com/stream⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
nostr account: ⁠https://primal.net/odell⁠
youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@citadeldispatch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
stream sats to the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.fountain.fm/

(00:00:04) Intro Clip

(00:03:03) Introduction to Citadel Dispatch

(00:03:57) Guest Introduction: Kieran and Discussion on ZapStream and Snort Projects

(00:05:27) Development and Evolution of ZapStream Project

(00:07:21) Challenges and Future Plans for ZapStream

(00:09:07) Monetization Strategies and Features for ZapStream

(00:11:51) Discussion on Withdrawals and Lightning Addresses in ZapStream

(00:19:00) Importance of User Experience and Features in ZapStream Development

(00:21:23) Focus on Snort Project and Development Challenges

(00:25:22) Comparison with Mainstream Platforms and Ethical Development Practices

(00:35:23) Future Enhancements and Features for Upstream and Snort Projects

(00:40:26) Discussion about raiding streams and stream events

(00:41:20) Experience with ZapStream and its features

(00:42:06) Conversation about OpenSats and grants

(01:16:25) Discussion about domain names and NIP5 handles

(01:17:01) Conversation about impersonators and domain ownership

(01:49:16) Financial challenges and losses in various projects

(01:51:01) Warning and advice about financial risks in projects like Bitcoin TV

(01:53:30) Discussion on integrating ZapStream comments into StreamYard

[00:00:05] Unknown:

Coin itself. I've heard you say this on a few,   interviews or podcasts and on on the media. A $1,000,000   for Bitcoin.  

[00:00:12] Unknown:

Walk us through your thesis of how it could get there. I just don't think that enough people have a big enough imagination   of this upcoming cycle I'm expecting.   I mean, the bond market is in trouble,   for really, arguably the first time in modern financial history. Bond holders are getting absolutely demolished and crushed. Now, David, who owns   bonds? All of our banks. So our our bank deposits aren't there because the bonds that   were purchased with my deposit is underwater.   And so if central banks and government is going to try and save that market, the amount of liquidity   that's needed is going to send assets   very high. I mean, you can try and do napkin math, and I I joke, like, how many COVIDs are we gonna get if they try and bail out this market that we're in today? You may get 2, 3 COVID. So   if that happens, it's impossible to speculate on an asset as scarce as Bitcoin, but I think 250,000   to a1000000   is the imagination I have in that range of just how big this can get, and that's based on all the liquidity that's gonna be required to make this market solvent.  



[00:01:20] Unknown:

Is that based on,   a steepening of the adoption curve, which we'll talk about in just a minute? Or is that just based on normal market action, like, more liquidity like you like you mentioned in the natural course of time just passing? Like, what what is the catalyst is basically what I'm asking. I think all the above. Well, you're we're talking about pricing  

[00:01:40] Unknown:

Bitcoin in a piece of paper that's being actively debased. Right? So maybe more interesting question is, you know, how many houses can I get for my Bitcoins in a year? But   given the fact that it is in dollars, I think that's where your imagination has to go insanely high because of the predicament that the government is in.   On the other side of that, though, on the the talk of adoption and just the notion of it, I think price is the most accurate KPI we have into Bitcoin adoption. What price tells me is a rather accurate measurement of how much of the world is using Bitcoin as money.   And so I expect more of the world to take on Bitcoin as money, whether it be for any form of use case or value to them because it is so appealing in solving so many different problems. So I expect   adoption of Bitcoin as as a monetary unit to go up. And then against the dollar in particular, and other fiat currencies, I expect it to be violent to the upside.  



[00:03:04] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive   live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   That intro was our boy, Jack Maers   Mallers. I always mispronounce his name.   And I warned him not to make a public price call. I learned my lesson   last cycle, but he did. So it was important to start   this dispatch   with it so we have a record of it going forward.   No more price calls for me. Just stay humble, Stack Sats.   It's been a big week. We had a great rip yesterday with Carlos.   We have a great rip tomorrow   with Ben Arc.  

Little blitz week blitz week of dispatch.   But today's episode is going to be a great conversation. I'm really looking forward to it.   We have our boy Kieran here,   prolific Noster developer.   Has his two main projects are ZapStream and Snort.   How's it going, Kieran?  

[00:04:11] Unknown:

It's going pretty good. Happy to be here.  

[00:04:13] ODELL:

Thanks thanks for joining. I just wanna do a quick   thank you to Kieran   and to the freaks. I know I said that we were gonna start,   like, 45 minutes ago.   But I had ran into some babysitter issues, and my babysitter was late, and Karen was really good about it. So,   life comes at you fast,   but we're here, and we're gonna have a great conversation.   Kieran,   We have a lot to talk about. I know Kieran is one of those humble guys that, like, when I asked him to come first of all, I had to, like, seduce him to get him on the show.   He   refused. He He said we have nothing to talk about. What is there to talk about? I think we have plenty to talk about.  

But I would like to start with Zap Stream. It's a project that I rely on heavily.   We've moved, you know, the the majority of of the of the dispatch audience,   watches and interacts live with dispatch through our Zap stream. You can get to it at sitaldispatch.com/stream.   It's got Bitcoin built in. It's got the nice live chat.   First of all, thank you for building it.   But how how do you think how do you think about ZapStream?  

[00:05:27] Unknown:

Well, I guess ZapStream kind   of was just like another random idea, you know, same as Snort. You know, it was more like   I wanted to try and build something.   I didn't really have any like grand vision in the beginning.   Cause even originally the, like the live streaming stuff was kind of, it was actually embedded   inside of snort originally.   And then I'm like, maybe I should just make a real, like Noster client for live streaming. It's people seem to like it.   And that's kind of where it started. And then it's kind of just been growing and growing, like   all the different feature requests people have been asking for and   kind of just aiming for,   you know, feature   parity with Twitch is basically where we're we're aiming for. And I think we're we're pretty much there, I guess, in a lot of ways.  



[00:06:19] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I think,   first of all, I think there's, like, a order of operations here, and I think you kinda nailed it.   The the freaks are having fun. The the stream chat is literally just zaps right now except for one guy.   I,   it's there's an order of operations here. It's like you build out a really nice   web video client that is it is literally going after Twitch. Right? I I had a lot of trouble naming this episode, but I just named it better Twitch even though we're gonna talk about a lot of things,   because I do think it's significantly better Twitch,   Twitch being the the video streaming platform,   that Amazon bought.  

But then you start you start with that, a a client that is incredibly focused. And then, I mean, the dream for me   and we see it in Amethyst. We see it in Snort. I I assume we see it in a couple other clients that are not on my radar. The dream is that it then gets integrated after the fact into all the major clients. Right?  

[00:07:21] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, Nasrudl,   I mean, they Hazard implemented it pretty quickly because he was like, this is great. So and he he also does that with a lot of other stuff, like the the torrents as well.   So Nostradiol is like the the ultimate toolbox, Noster toolbox, because they pretty much implements everything.   And yeah, Amethyst as well had it pretty soon after.   I think that's the only   the only the only major, like, social noster clients that have it. Not aware of any others.  

[00:07:51] ODELL:

So,   I mean, I had   I had Hazard   and Stew on,   a couple weeks ago,   and they were talking about the blossom spec.   Do you have any thoughts on where ZapStream falls into that conversation?  

[00:08:10] Unknown:

Well, funnily enough, I'm actually building a blossom server right now,   in Rust.   So I'm kind of trying to   I'm trying to see where where where we can take it, you know, for at least from my project perspectives.   Like with snort, we already support like NIP 96, which is very similar   kind of file uploading spec to blossom.   So, yeah, it would be cool to support it in Snort and on maybe on Zaps upstream as well.   My goal with my kind of immediate goal with what's upstream is to build like this new backend in rust.   And the goal, the main purpose of that is to obviously   learn how to do like heavy media processing,   you know, at a scale that   at the scale of Twitch is out basically.  

Like, how do we, how do we scale upstream   And also to kind of help with the   decentralization of upstream.  

[00:09:07] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, this is obviously easier said than done.   It's been a business that's been dominated by the big boys because it's quite expensive.  

[00:09:21] Unknown:

Yeah. So the the angle that I'm I'm kind of going at here is is like   a marketplace of   a marketplace of ZapStream providers, pretty much.   So this, this kind of backend will be hopefully   anyone could run it and they can offer their own   streaming back end on ZapStream.  

[00:09:41] ODELL:

And then, obviously, there'll be, like, a a reputation that goes with that. That's pretty cool. So like if we had a falling out and you didn't like me anymore, I could still stream.   Yeah. Because like right now I'm just beholding,  

[00:09:52] Unknown:

beholding on you providing it. Well, I mean, you can always still you can still host your own stream. There's, like, the manual stream option. So Right. You can just link to some other platform.   So it's basically that. It's basically the manual streams like   but someone else's back end, you know, like a paid back another paid paid back end. That's not the   the ZapStream back end.  

[00:10:12] ODELL:

Well, let's so let's talk about this a little bit. So I one of the things   that I've always been fascinated by is   simple solutions to hard problems   and the and, you know, or simple mitigations because   it's almost never a full solution, but,   but rather more of an improvement.   And one of those things is   this idea that one of the reasons I like Twitch, YouTube, you know, YouTube's owned by Google. Twitch is owned by Amazon.   One of the reasons and, obviously, Spotify is the elephant in the room on the audio side.   One of the reasons why we see   these kind of media   platforms and streaming platforms   centralized is because of of the massive costs,   massive costs associated with operating them. And what happens is the users are are used to uploading for free,   so the platform has to then   take on that burden early   and forever.  

And then they try and monetize from ads or,   user or data harvesting or something like that. But but you took a a distinct   distinctly different approach.   The user the broadcaster,   me, in this situation, has to essentially load   sats into my account,   and then I pay for every minute that I broadcast.   I think that is is quite clever, but I I am curious.   Does that actually cover your cost, or are you charging too little?  

[00:11:51] Unknown:

The way that I calculate the cost is, like,   you know, I'm basically targeting for a certain number of 247   streams.   So, like, I say that   if we can have because I only have a certain amount of capacity as well, like, in my actual servers that we're where it's deployed. Got it. Hopefully, that will be increasing. But in the current setup, it's like   I can only like, one stream with with all of the different, like, qualities, like the the 720p and the 10 80p and the 480p   that uses about, like, 1 CPU on average. It depends on the bit rate, but usually around 1 CPU.   And I have around 30 or 40 CPUs.  

I can't remember.   But, so basically I I worked it out like, okay, if I could have,   you know, I didn't wanna have the full server, like, killed by stream. So I said, like, if I can have, like,   10 or 15,   247 streams, like, how much how many SaaS would that be to cover the server cost? And that's basically how I worked out the pricing.   So obviously right now there's like   like some of them are on the cheaper rates, like the the ones that are like 247, they usually use the the basic rate. So that's only like 1 sat per minute.   But the this stream and, like, people who stream regularly,   they usually use the the higher rates, like, the the good rate or the best rate.  



[00:13:09] ODELL:

Wait. What rate am I on?  

[00:13:11] Unknown:

This is the best rate. If you don't have recording, it's the best rate. Okay.   Yeah. There's there's 3 different rates which people really get confused about because they're Dude, I'm a power user. I had no idea there's 3 different rates.   Yeah. The basic rate is, like, no no transcoding. So, like, it doesn't use any CPU. So that's why I'm, like, just have it at 1 sat per minute.   So it's pretty much pass through. So if you upload, like, a a 720p stream, that's what the viewers will get. Like, we don't actually transcode the video.   So that's like a cheap way for people to run 247 channels like no good and   lightning the jukebox one.  

Yeah. There's 3 rates, which you don't actually see now. Because originally, like, it used to have, like, all the rates on display, and people got really confused about the different rates.   So we're like, okay. Well, just let everyone use the best rate,   because, you know, maybe probably people don't want VODs maybe most of the time if they're just doing, like, random testing.   So it defaults to the good right now.   So that's the one you see. But if you go into settings, you should see the 3 of them.  

[00:14:11] ODELL:

Yeah. I might have went into settings at one one point and saw, like, I was on best, and I was like, well, I don't want anything less than the best.   That one has recording. Yeah. Wait. So do I have recording enabled?  

[00:14:23] Unknown:

I'd have to check your last one. I I don't know, like, right now what you're using, but  

[00:14:28] ODELL:

God. It's like a live tech support   show.   ZapStream.   I'm checking.  

[00:14:36] Unknown:

If they have a recording, basically, like, if you go into the old video and it it starts playing, then that's their guess rate. I'm on best. I see I'm on best.  

[00:14:45] ODELL:

Yeah. If I'm on best, does that automatically record or no? Is that  

[00:14:49] Unknown:

separate? Yeah. It does.  

[00:14:51] ODELL:

So then it should be recording. Right? Yeah. Profile.   Meanwhile, I just go and upload to satellite.earth   afterwards.  

[00:14:59] Unknown:

Anyway oh, yeah. They're all here. Yeah. So there there's, like, it's store like I said, it's   storing, like, 90 90 days, I think. 1, 2, 3. 90 days, it gets deleted.   Because I have, like, 7 terabytes of recording already.  

[00:15:14] ODELL:

Yeah. That's insane. You have 23  

[00:15:17] Unknown:

23 past episodes and 2 clips of of dispatch on yours on your servers right now. Yeah. I think it actually it might still show them even even if the, like, recording is deleted.   Oh. Yeah. It does. Yeah. I think if you click onto it, it will it likes to say offline or or ended.  

[00:15:36] ODELL:

Offline.   Doesn't work. Okay. So maybe not.   But this one says ended.   So maybe they aren't recording.   Do I have to toggle something?  

[00:15:48] Unknown:

Well, I guess it depends what you set up in Restream. Like, it won't show you what you're currently using pretty much on the settings. It'll just it'll just say, like, these are the options.  

[00:15:56] ODELL:

Wait. I'll restream, I can set recording?  

[00:15:59] Unknown:

Yeah. You set, like, your the URL is, like, for the different variants, the different,   plans.   So the, if the URL ends with, like, the RTMP URL   that ends with,   slash   live, I think. Yeah. Or live 2. Live 2 is good and live is, like, best.  

[00:16:17] ODELL:

Oh, I I think I use live. Yeah. So that's best. But so then it should be recording, but it's not recording.  

[00:16:24] Unknown:

And   is it not?   Maybe it's just slow.   It's just that good. Yeah. Super long recordings. It might take a while to actually start playing. I mean, I am just I'm kinda DDoSing you,  

[00:16:38] ODELL:

making you   learn by fire.  

[00:16:42] Unknown:

Okay. Well, enough of that. I mean, I think It is it is there. Yeah. The recording's there. Oh, they are? Yeah. I don't know why it should be playing that.  

[00:16:50] ODELL:

What? Did you check the last one with Carlos?   Yeah.   This is great. I love the live tech support episodes.   Thank you, Freaks, for,   sticking with us. I mean so, I mean, that goes to my next question, though. How do you how do you feel about recordings? Like, I'm loading up your   you have 7 terabytes. Like, the people don't realize this. Like, I went through this pain   with Bitcoin TV.   It gets expensive pretty fast, and then I guess I guess auto delete. Right? You said 90 days.   Yeah. 90 days. Handles that.   Well, that's the only reason Is that where the majority of cost is? Is on the actual recordings and people playing back to recordings afterwards? Well, I mean, I I have, like, a certain amount of capacity, so it's not really costing me anything for storage because I'm already paying, like, a flat rate. Okay. Got it. But then it it it would hurt concurrent streams if people are watching recordings at the same time or something?  

[00:17:45] Unknown:

Not really. It's just served from, like, a different place. So it's like some some disk load but like not nothing Oh, because you don't have to do any transcoding at that point? Yeah. It's it's literally just like giving you the stream as it was recorded, like sent to the server. So it's like an identical copy   of what you   pushed to the ZapStream back end. Let me just save it and then replay it.  

[00:18:09] ODELL:

Got it. I mean, I,   I mean, so that's if we wanna talk about blossom to bring it back to blossom. Right? Like, that's   the the beauty would be if that recording   was then recorded per Blossom spec. So it was hashed,   signed by my pub key,   and then   after the 90 days, maybe another server picks it up if it's a worthwhile piece of content. Right?  

[00:18:34] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, we could have instead of, like, pointing to my recording back end, you could, like, point the recording to your Blossom server.  

[00:18:42] ODELL:

Yeah. That's badass.   Then I that that would be awesome.  

[00:18:47] Unknown:

That would be awesome.   If only somebody would build it.  

[00:18:51] ODELL:

Well,   I'm I'm not the builder. I'm the supporter, so I really have I have nothing I can say except, I would love it. It would be awesome.  

[00:19:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm interested to to see what we can do at Blossom. That's why I'm I'm building something.   Trying to add   I'm trying to upgrade, basically. I have this file host void cache, which is like the default on zaps on   Snort.   And, yeah, I kinda wanted to it's built in c sharp, and I kind of wanted to make it, like, more efficient   because it's not very   it's not very efficient in how it's because we're doing, like, media compression.  

[00:19:27] ODELL:

Right.  

[00:19:28] Unknown:

But I wanted to do it, like, in a more efficient way, and I wanted to support Blossom. So   I figured I'm I'm kinda on this, like,   this rust learning  

[00:19:37] ODELL:

mission right now to get better at Rust. That's the best way to learn is by doing. Right? Exactly.   Awesome. Well, Freaks, as always I mean, now more than ever for this for this rip, but feel free to put any questions you have,   for Kieran in the comments.   I see a question from Cypher Citizen that I get a lot.   Currently, there's no way   to rewind a live show. Right?  

[00:20:06] Unknown:

No. It only gives you, like, the last,   like,   I think 60 seconds   in in the playlist.   So,   I mean, technically, you can. Like, the the segments are there, but the play the playlist only tells you that there's, like, one minute of video, so   you can't actually go backwards.  

[00:20:24] ODELL:

And that's a is that a technical limitation on how you have it set up? Yeah.   I mean, because   but right now, what I see a lot of freaks do is they   they'll come in. They'll be like, oh, shit. I'm late.   And then they leave the the chat for ZapStream up, and then they go to YouTube. They go back to the beginning on YouTube,   and,   they do, like, 1.5x   or something to catch up,   which I guess works. You know? Yeah.   Hacks all the way down.  

[00:20:55] Unknown:

Yeah. For sure. Maybe with the new back end, we could support that.  

[00:21:01] ODELL:

So, anyway, Kieran, you make all this sound really easy,   which I'm sure it's not.   Are like, what are the biggest   besides this back end that you're trying to make more performant,   what are what are the what are the biggest hurdles that you're facing on ZapStream build out? Like like, where are the pain points?  

[00:21:24] Unknown:

I think   I mean, what we have right now is, like,   it's pretty straightforward   from   that's how I feel about it anyway. But,   like, we have the   the stream events. We have this hosted back end. I mean, it's pretty pretty much straightforward.   But if you wanted to do, like,   more advanced things, and this is kind of the same problem we have across   all areas of Noster is, like, how do you actually curate the the right content for the view like, the person?   Or, like, how do   you show relevant things to them? Right. Webs of trust.   Well, yeah. Webs of trust is 1.  

But even, like, popular,   like,   popular   games or popular categories is is something I wanna build as well.   So,   yeah, that's kind of where I'm I'm looking at right now is, like, can we show   maybe can we follow categories or can we   show   categories which people are are used to watching and, like, who's who's streaming in those categories? And   also for people coming to the site, like, how do they how do they know what to stream, like, what game to stream, for example.   We could show, like, okay, this this category Unlike the broadcaster side you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well it'll be on the you know the viewers will see it as well. It's like   in this game you know the x amount of sats has been   zapped basically. Oh you'll get more money if you stream this game. Yeah basically. So like if you go into like the categories   I don't it doesn't actually show you, like, the whole game list right now,   but we could do, like,   a list of the people who are live right now and what games they're playing and then show, like, okay, this game has, like,   10 ks SATs and this game has 5 ks SATs. And then you can kind of   work out, like, okay, maybe I should stream that game because people seem to like it, you know? So it gives a bit of a feedback for the for people who want to stream, you know, they they can see, like,   oh, I could earn 10,000 sats playing this game. You know? Yeah. I mean, I like that.  



[00:23:23] ODELL:

I would I would also like,   you know, I've been with dispatch. Dispatch is   is a pure value for value show,   and   value for value, at least,   for the way that Adam Curry,   like,   explains it   and markets it, I guess, is is this idea, right, that that the user   you're providing the value,   and then the broadcaster provides the value, and then the user,   after the fact, is kind of choosing what kind of value is provided.   But one thing that   which   has has been a rough road, and I I think just in general,   it's probably just really early. I mean, we don't have that many Bitcoiners, and then there's, like, a subset of that that are actually,   you know, participating in the like, I always say, like, dispatch runs on the rider dies.  

You know?   So that that's a a smaller subset of the overall listener base, and it's just gonna take time adoption wise. But one thing I noticed,   that has found   pretty good,   fit, and he he gets a lot of stats for it,   is   is Guy Swan, like, has this niche, right, where he just, like, reads other people's articles and books.   And he has, like, on his website,   what should I read next?   And people pay, like, a decent amount of sats, like, more than dispatch it makes   to to,   you know, to get up on that leaderboard to get him to read what they want him to read. And so it's it's a little bit different than, like, strictly value for value. It's it's value before value or something. I don't know.   I don't have a term for it. But there's something there also with streaming, I think. Right? It's like,   if if listeners could tell me what topics   Like, right now, it's it's Odell chooses what topics he thinks are interesting.  

And I'm just, like, making a guesstimation on what the audience wants to talk about. But if if they had a way of   essentially putting a bounty up, right, just like, if Odell gets Kieran on the stream,   like, he gets 200,000 sats or something,   that could be that could be really interesting. And then you could take,   like, that's also another monetization   path for whoever this app stream host is. I mean, if there's many of these app stream instances, like you're kinda suggesting,   where they take a cut of   of that,   you know, pre revenue.  



[00:25:59] Unknown:

I guess, yeah, you could have, like, a   I guess you could have, like, a a broadcast goal because obviously you have, like, zap goals that are, like   that you have at the top of the the stream.  

[00:26:10] ODELL:

By the way, I when I went to my past streams to see if there recordings, there I've only done one Zap goal ever,   and the name of the goal was not sure how this works, LOL. I remember that one.   It's the only time I've ever used zap goals. But   Yeah. Zap goals are are pretty cool. Do that.   Like, I could put a zap goal up right now. Like, what do you want the next? Do you want the next episode to be 2 things? Right? I could put 2 zap goals.  

[00:26:37] Unknown:

It only shows 1 at a time. Oh, okay. Well, I can't do do that. But on your profile I mean, profile that shows all of your zap goals. So, like, people could go to your profile   and see, like, a zap goal for, you know, pug   rip with x and rip with y, and they could zap   the goals individually.  

[00:26:54] ODELL:

Got it. I could put it on my profile. Yeah. So something like that. Right? I mean, obviously, you wouldn't want it to be   in in Guy's case, it's not even it's not custodial or anything. Like, you're literally just zapping Guy. Like, if he doesn't read the article, like, he just rugged you. Yeah.   And it could be the same it could be the same setup. It could just be   use that me ahead of time if you want a topic. And then whatever has the most stats, like, I have a,   you know, essentially a a reputation agreement with the listeners that I will actually do the topic that they vote to the top.   Yeah.  

That's a cool idea. Yeah.   Okay. Cool. And then the other thing I'm curious about on your opinion here in terms of discoverability   and monetization,   because I just love the idea of, like, open source projects that have some kind of SaaS flow. Right? And it's one of the cool parts about you charging up front for those streams   and potential zap splits,   as as maybe a revenue source for that, like, kind of   choose your choose your adventure, what topics you want.   How do you feel about   me, like, paying Satch   to have, like, the dispatch stream highlighted?   Like a fee paid feature or a promote promoted streams? Yeah. Like a exactly. Like, you're saying, like, I don't know what streams to show new users that come onto the on on onto the website. Well, I want them to see Cibele Dispatch. So I They're pretty much gonna see it because, like, there's hardly anyone streaming. Yeah. But let's say let's say our dreams become reality. Right? And there's a 1,000 concurrent streams. Right? Yeah. Is that   is   how do you feel about that? Is that is that taboo? Or  

[00:28:40] Unknown:

Maybe. I mean, we are we have, like, the the ZapStream   short URLs, which are which are, like, paid. It's pretty much the the NIP five for for ZapStream.   It's not really you can't actually buy them on ZapStream. You have to go to Snort because it's, like, it's part of the Snort back end that manages all of   the the NIP five handles.   But, yeah, if you buy, like, the NIP five, you get, like, the short URL. So for for yours for this stream, you could go to, like,   zap.stream/odell,  

[00:29:08] ODELL:

and it will just redirect to, like, the latest stream. And you just gave that to me because I'm your boy. Right?  

[00:29:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I I actually bought it, so I paid myself. And then, like,   on Snort, on the back end, you can actually transfer   an a hoster addresses. Like, you can transfer it to another end pub. So I just transferred it to you. Well, thank you. Yeah. I just got a message from Kieran one day, and it was just  

[00:29:29] ODELL:

it it was just my link. I was like, oh, nice.  

[00:29:33] Unknown:

I don't know if I did it for or HR as well. I I don't remember.  

[00:29:38] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I just at this point, I just do the redirects.  

[00:29:41] Unknown:

So Yeah. I think I think one of the   one of the highest, like, referrals to ZapStream is, like, the Citadel dispatch link.  

[00:29:50] ODELL:

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, proud proud to be of service and,   you know, I I   I I, like, I feel like ZapStream   ZapStream was built for me, and I never had to talk to you about it. I only discovered you as a person till afterwards.  

[00:30:08] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's kinda surreal as well that, like,   you're you're streaming on this thing that I just, like, made randomly and and even we had, like, some conferences showing on here.   And when I was in, like,   Nostra, Asia, and it was, like, live streaming on ZapStream. I'm, like, they didn't even tell me they were gonna live stream on ZapStream.   And then I was in I was at the thing, and I'm, like, it's on ZapStream with, like, a 100 viewers. I had no idea.   And it was kind of surreal to, like,   to see it grow, like, so quickly. You know?  

[00:30:40] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, look. I just,   real recognizes real. You know? I I I always   I always pride myself in,   I pride myself in in trying to use the best that's out there regardless of,   direct financial incentive,   which is one of the reasons why our HR never has many ad deals because   it doesn't matter how much you pay me. I'll just recommend the best.   And, for for me, like, that's what's app well, as soon as I saw his app stream, I was like, I just I'm just gonna switch the whole stack over to his app stream.   And I, like, I kind of rugged the freaks because they were in the matrix chat, and we were using the matrix chat. And then we have, like, a few rider dies that still use the YouTube chat, and no one sees what they say.   And I just I just did it.  

Oh, yes. See?   I have I just checked the YouTube chat, and one of the only comments in the YouTube chat is, why don't you put this app stream in the YouTube   description? Never mind. Found it.   Yeah. But, yeah, they have to do a little bit of proof of work to figure it out. Okay. I mean, I think   I think that's enough on ZapStream.   And this is a this is a ZapStream   conversation on ZapStream, which is kind of cool with the creator of ZapStream.   It's rabbits all the way down. But, you I mean, you're doing more work on Gnostr besides just ZapStream.   How what I guess Snort is the is the other big is Snort take up more of your time than ZapStream?  

It must.  

[00:32:13] Unknown:

Well, actually, I haven't really done anything on ZapStream in a while.   The last thing that I've added was, like, the categories.   And I added the withdrawal function recently, but it seems to be missing. I don't know how.   So I need to look at that.   Well, like, I load up stats for my credits and, like, I can't get them out? Yeah. Like, I added withdrawals, but then I tried to, like, look for the withdrawal button and it wasn't there anymore. I think I might have rolled it back by mistake.  

[00:32:39] ODELL:

But on snore You know, why do you need withdrawals? Fuck withdrawals.  

[00:32:44] Unknown:

I mean, people could. If people come to ZapStream and they're, like, earning a lot of sats, you know, like, because if when you initially when you sign up to ZapStream,   like, if you create an account on ZapStream, it gives you, like,   a lightning address.  

[00:32:57] ODELL:

It defaults It goes to their ZapStream account if they don't have a lightning address already. Yeah. Like, if you create a new account on ZapStream, it defaults to, like, their  

[00:33:05] Unknown:

yeah. So, like, basically, you can, like, come to ZapStream if you if you never use Nostr,   create an account, and then, like, start streaming and you can get zapped straight away. Okay. So you're both should have withdrawals.   Yeah. That's that's kind of why I added it because obviously, if you're coming and loading Sats, it's different. But  

[00:33:22] ODELL:

Yeah. Like, I always brought my own lightning address to my ZapStream experience.   Yeah. Which is cool that you can do either. I mean, I I one of the coolest parts   of of of how you built,   how you built   the site is that when I tell, like, non Nostra users, like, go to cildispatch.com/stream,   they don't have to have actually have even to have a Nostra account. Like, they can just do it in the browser,   when they when they come in, and I   Yep. I I like that approach in general. So that makes sense that on the broadcaster side, it would be the same thing.  

[00:33:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you just come in, make a random account, and troll the chat. You know?  

[00:34:05] ODELL:

Look. We got we got the guy the guys in the from the YouTube chat is now in the this app stream chat. Let's go. Shout out you freak. New ant pub.   Yeah. He made one on the fly. There you go.   Okay. Well, let's talk about Snort, but with the   I think I've told you this personally.   Like, dude, I ZapStream is it. Like, I I I'm I'm glad you're focused on other things too,   but, like, ZapStream is one of the killer apps of   of Nostr. It's it's gonna bring in a shit ton of new users.   It's way better than the status quo. It's 10 x better than the status quo.   And I I think it is, like,   one of the most   exciting projects   on Noster.  

It's it's hard it's hard to compete with it. Like, I I   it   you don't ever have to you don't even have to be a Noster user to appreciate it. I mean, even in the way I have it set up. Right? It's like people watching the YouTube   never even go to ZapStream,   but they are consuming the ZapStream   chat. Right? They're they're they're viewing the ZapStream chat.   I think it's just   simply profound in a simple way. That's the cool part.   But let's talk about snort. Okay. I was gonna, like, continue this upstream conversation, but okay. What what else do you wanna talk about with Upstream?  

[00:35:30] Unknown:

What I'm what I'm gonna talk about? Gonna say, like, it's only gonna get better. I mean, I'm trying to make it better, but it's it's kind of hard to to build all these things and and maintain them.  

[00:35:39] ODELL:

That's what I'm saying. Like, focus.  

[00:35:43] Unknown:

I spent, like, a month on the the news app stream back end.   And I got, like, stuck at some point, and I'm, like, I need a break. You know?   Because I like That's fair. Yeah.   But, yeah, there's there's that. It's difficult. It really is difficult to build this. The thing I'm trying to build, it's it's not gonna be, like,   a few weeks or a few months. It's gonna it's gonna take a while to build this because   it's, like,   much harder than what I have. You know? Like, what I have right now is, like,   it's it's all it's all, like, prebuilt software pretty much.   Like, I'm using this streaming streaming system. It's open source as well,   but it's like a streaming back end. And that that handles, like, all of the transcoding and the,   like, the delivery of the the stream. So So it's pretty much like I have a few hooks around that system,   and that that's what does all of the accounting.  

But, yeah, hopefully, it it gets,   like, way more advanced because I there's a lot of things I can't do with that system.  

[00:36:43] ODELL:

Like what?  

[00:36:45] Unknown:

Well, the clips is one obvious   piece of crap feature that we have right now.   It's, like, it's just really difficult to make clips work well,   and it's, like, it's really hacky the way it's built right now.  

[00:36:59] ODELL:

Yeah. Clips clips are big. People like clips.  

[00:37:02] Unknown:

Yeah.   I know there's a lot of things that I could I could build to make it, like, the experience way better because Enclips is one   of them. Like, you can share a clip now, but, like,   clips don't really work yet.   Like, we have a clip event on Nostra. Like, you could share that on on another   on another platform,   and they should be able to play it because it's just a video link.   But  

[00:37:27] ODELL:

yeah. Yeah. We needs more work. We have to take   this is something that, like, Freedom Tech devs have trouble with.   And I I'm not to single you out because I think you actually   are a bit of an exception to the rule, but we have to take   we have to take,   inspiration   from the the dominant slave tech platforms. Right. And like what works and what doesn't.   And then try and do it in an ethical way.   And maybe some things you can't do in an ethical way, so you just don't do   them. But clips is a big one.   The other thing I see is,   raids. Right? Like, that's like a Twitch feature.  

How does raids work? I was first of all, I named this better Twitch.   I barely use Twitch. I've never consumed on Twitch. I've just previously broadcasted to Twitch. Now I don't anymore because AppStream exists.  

[00:38:25] Unknown:

But Raids is a Twitch concept. Right? Is it how does that work? Yeah. It's I mean, I used to watch a lot of stuff on Twitch, so   I'm pretty familiar with it. But,   yeah, raids is basically where let's say, like, you finish your stream and,   like, you wanna share you want your viewers to, like, stay on the site. I think it's it's basically like Twitch trying to keep people on the platform.   So they they created this thing called raids where   after your stream has ended, like, you can   redirect your viewers to some other streamer who's live right now so they can, like, continue watching something else.   And maybe it's your friend and maybe you know that person and Oh, like, we can all go into no goods,  

[00:39:03] ODELL:

radio after this.  

[00:39:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, it instantly   redirects you to, like, whatever you're rating. And so how do I do that?  

[00:39:10] ODELL:

If you go to the dashboard, it's there. But if I click it right now, do I lose all my viewers and we just all go to no good node? Yeah. Don't don't start the rate right now. Okay.  

[00:39:21] Unknown:

I've I've kind of been too too scared to figure that out. Okay. Yeah. I I usually raid, like, someone if someone is online, if like, because I stream, like, programming almost every day on ZapStream.   Yeah.   Well, not every day, but most days.   And, yeah, I usually raid someone. Yeah. But I don't really have that many viewers, but when there is some viewers, like, I'll try to raid someone too. Where do I see it?   If you're on the stream dashboard, it should say there should be, like, a raid button on the Okay. Click stream.  

[00:39:49] ODELL:

Oh, shit, dude. The stream dashboard is dope. I've never been here live. What the hell, dude?   Well, you got, you know, you gotta message this to people. I told you to check out the stream dashboard.   You know, I got a lot of things going on. This is  

[00:40:04] Unknown:

awesome. It's even better when you when you when the stream is over, it shows you the summary as well. So it shows you, like, everything that happened. I didn't know that. Yeah. And the dashboard, like, got a whole new revamp as well for new for new people.   So, like, it it brings you through this, like, step by step process on, like, how to set up a stream if you've never streamed  

[00:40:22] ODELL:

before. This is awesome. I can I I can censor people on this? Yeah. You can mute people. Chat users. I can mute them. Yep. I'm not going to such a huge freak. I I have I never have because I didn't know I could until just now. But,  

[00:40:36] Unknown:

damn. Okay. So if I press this raid button at the end of the show, we can all go to Yeah. Like, it will show, like, a a dialogue, and it'll give you, like, a list of who's live right now. And you can, like, click the name, and it'll pre fill   the the address, like, raid this stream. It put basically puts it's like an Oster event. So   you basically have a 2 a tags, which is, like,   the from and the to. So you have, like, a from, which is this stream, and the to is, like, the other stream that you're rating. Awesome. Well So, like click That's bad. Let's continue.   So, like, both streams can see in the in their chats, like, if you're rating from someone or to someone, they can both see. Okay. You were rated by Odell, pretty much. Or you're rating you're rating no good. So it'll show kind of links the 2 streams together.  



[00:41:20] ODELL:

Yeah. I've seen people raid me.   Yep. And I was like, I don't know what that is.   And by the way, freaks, I know it's fun to troll Odell on his own show,   but, like,   Kieran builds very quickly. He's just, like, constantly shipping shit. It's hard to keep track. Yeah. Sorry. I actually don't announce a lot of stuff for ZapStream as well. I'm I'm an OG ZapStream user. It was a very basic website when I first started using it. Yeah. It's still pretty basic.   And usually, I don't mess with things when they're not broken, so I don't, like,   look at but this is awesome. I'm gonna always keep the stream dashboard up now. Yeah. It shows it shows the zaps in the center as well, so you can kind of Yeah. The zaps are awesome. I see which freaks are   participating in value for value and which ones aren't. I see you guys.  



[00:42:06] Unknown:

Yeah. I think you I think you guys asked about, like,   the top zaps comments as well. Right?   Because, like, you guys are reading out the the top zappers from the last stream. Yeah. On the top. Yeah. And you couldn't see the comments.  

[00:42:20] ODELL:

Yeah. I couldn't see. Do you did you add it? No.  

[00:42:23] Unknown:

No.   But that's one place you could add it is, like, the dashboard.  

[00:42:26] ODELL:

Yeah. Like, you could show, like, the top Yeah. It'd be nice to see it in the dashboard.   Yeah. Oh, I see it I mean, I see it right now in the dashboard, but when the stream ends, I won't see it anymore.  

[00:42:36] Unknown:

No. You'll see the top zappers, like, in the summary.   So you have, like, the the top chatters Yeah. This center the center zap thing that I see? No. That whole layout's different. Like, when a stream is over it's, like, different completely.   Got it. So it'll show you, like, the the activity over time. So it'll show you, like,   chats and zaps on, like, a timeline. So you can see kinda when your stream is most active.   And then it'll show you the,   like, the some like, the top chatters, like, counts basically who who chatted the most and who's app the most. And you can also see the shares and how many   how many, like, likes those shares got. So if you click, like,   share on Nostr  

[00:43:15] ODELL:

Did you see I'm I'm I'm streaming   the I'm streaming the dashboard now. Look how cool this dashboard is, guys. I just discovered it. Sorry. If you if I press share on Noster  

[00:43:24] Unknown:

Yeah. If you're on the stream and you shared a stream, it shows on the summary as well. So you can see, like, if someone shares your stream you can see like oh that person shared my stream and it got like 10 likes. So you can kind of see   like   who like, where your viewers may be coming from, basically. So if you're a new streamer, you can kind of share the stream,   and people will, when you finish your stream you can see like oh this person like oh Odell   shared my stream and like 10 people reposted it so like   you know, maybe maybe in the future we could also do, like, a kind of   zap splits thing to your people who are sharing your stream. So you were like, okay. Thanks for sharing my stream. Here's a zap. You know? Like, I okay. I earned, like, 20 k sats from that stream, and, you know, I'll zap them a couple 100 or whatever   for sharing it.  

That's awesome. Okay. The sky's the limit. We're just getting started. This is we've barely scratched the surface. Yeah. There's there's so many things I wanna build. I kind of forget. It's mostly on the, the GitHub, like, all the issues.   And,   Carnage, Carnage has a lot of ideas as well. So there's there's so many ideas. Helps you with the design a lot. Right? Yeah. And a lot of the yeah. Like, a lot of ideas as well. Like, can we try this, or should we do that? And   there's just there's so much to do. You know?  

[00:44:40] ODELL:

That's what I'm saying, though. Like, the focus has gotta be ZapStream. Like, it's  

[00:44:45] Unknown:

Yeah. But I can't, like, just ditch, you know, the other stuff as well. Like, the other ones are kind of mostly in in maintenance mode, you know, trying to kinda do, like What's the other stuff?   Well, Snort is is came first. So it's like the it's my first project. I kinda just abandoned that one. Yeah. But just because it's the first kid doesn't mean you have to love it more. Okay. I guess. Yeah. You let him be the fucked up one. No.   Yeah. I'm actually I am working on Snort at the minute.   I try to make it, like,   try to make it faster and kind of more   less bogie, I guess, you know, more polished. It's mostly polished. I don't really want to add anything   to snort, you know. It's kind of it's it's got everything it needs. You know? It just needs, like, a lot of polishing.  



[00:45:28] ODELL:

I saw someone   ask,   in the comments if ZapStream,   if you're the recipient of an Open Sats grant.   I believe I believe you are. You got an Open Sats grant for a combination of ZapStream and Snort? Yeah. For the 2.  

[00:45:45] Unknown:

Yeah.   So there you go. There's the answer.  

[00:45:50] ODELL:

Dude, we have I mean, we've gotten over 600 applications. We have over a 100 grants outstanding.   A lot of the times, I have to go and check.   Praise Gigi.   Gigi's amazing.   God bless that individual.   What a dude.   I,   and what what is your open sats experience been like?   Good. I mean, I You can talk shit. Like, I'm not gonna I first of all, it's designed so I can't single handedly stop you even though I'm probably your biggest advocate within the org.  

[00:46:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Odell, I really I really don't like all of these very   these direct messages you're sending me telling me not to do this and not to do that. It's Dude, this is how conspiracy starts. Fuck you.  

[00:46:36] ODELL:

We're ending the stream. No. I literally have received I'm gonna use Twitch from now on. It's over.  

[00:46:42] Unknown:

I've literally received 0 messages from OpenStance. So when I was wondering, I don't get, like, told what to work on. Our bigger our bigger issue is that we probably should be sending more feedback and stuff. Yeah. Maybe.  

[00:46:54] ODELL:

It's Like, internally, one of our number one goals is,   our number one goals is is getting, like, proper feedback out, especially for the declined applications.   But, also, like, part of the long term vision of OpenSats   is that we want them to be,   obviously, like, we want them to be renewed and long standing. Right? And so, like, there's gonna be all   we're we're only really, like, a year into we're we're, like, starting to hit a year into   open sets being,   like, really serious business, which was when we got,   the Jack Dorsey donation, and and Grant started rolling out like crazy.  

And so that involves a whole review process. So, like, where does the grant recipient stand? Where does the project stand?   And, like, we're gonna need to provide, like, real feedback at that point. Like, what's going on? And   Yeah. And I don't know if we're quite there yet. Like, that's our biggest that's our our big that's funny because, like, the conspiracy   the biggest cons one of the biggest conspiracies is that we're, like, dictating what people should do. And one of our biggest pain points is that we're, like, not   telling people what we think enough.  

Yeah.   It's a funny dichotomy.  

[00:48:12] Unknown:

But yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess it would be kinda cool to   to have some, like, direct feedback. Like  

[00:48:18] ODELL:

Exactly.   Yeah. Instead of just, like, an opaque, like,   the board has decided.   You know? It's like, you did not get your 5 of 9 votes. You did get your 5 of 9 votes. Like, that is currently,   like, the amount of feedback people get. Yeah.   And, obviously, OpenSats   I guess, just because   there's always new people, it's important to constantly repeat. OpenSats is a 5 0 1 c 3   nonprofit organization.   None of the board members except for Gigi get paid, and that's because Gigi's full time and, like, runs the whole ship.   And he gets paid from a separate operations fund.  

So if you donate to operations,   that goes to Gigi's salary,   A few other part time people underneath him so Gigi doesn't completely get burnt down and lose his mind.   And, hopefully, actually, a couple more part time people because it's a lot of work. A lot more work than people realize.   But but if you donate to the general fund,   or the Noster Fund, that's a 100% pass through. So everything goes to open source contributors.   And, obviously,   we get no financial benefit out of   out of their projects.   Okay. So Snort.   Should we should we talk about Snort? We're, like, we're, like, an hour in, and I know your time is precious.  

I feel like we should talk about Snort. A lot of people use Snort. If you click a damas dot io link a lot of people use damas. Right? And, like, you share a damas link. I think it goes to Snort.  

[00:49:50] Unknown:

Not anymore.  

[00:49:51] ODELL:

I think Wow. The implementation How does that make you feel?  

[00:49:56] Unknown:

I don't mind. Okay.   I mean, it was cool when he had when he added it, he was like, I'm just gonna redirect   everything to Snort because I'm not building a web client. You know?   But,   yes. Snort is,   like I said, it's mostly maintenance. So I'm trying to make it faster, and I'm kind of less buggy at the moment.   There's a lot of things that we could improve.   Like, with with Primal gaining a lot of popularity, there's a lot less people using   Snort than there used to be.   So I'm trying to kind of keep up. You know? It's not Primal has this this better,   well, I don't know if it's better, but some people think it's better than   than Snort or Coreacle or kind of any of the other clients.  

So I'm trying to improve the kind of the bugginess and the lagginess and the speed overall. It's kind of hard to compete with a   centralized system, but, yeah, we'll see.  

[00:50:54] ODELL:

So where did Domestar io links go? Does does he do end jump now?  

[00:50:59] Unknown:

He has something that renders the notes. I'm not sure what it is. I think they built something.  

[00:51:04] ODELL:

I mean, you talk about, like, how how do you do   how how do you do,   how do you compete with, like, centralized alternative or whatever? Like, most of the time, if I get   a non primal link, I just put primal.net/e/n,   and then I do the note, and then I just   yeah. It just pops up in my browser.  

[00:51:26] Unknown:

Like, if you're if you're not sharing an an event link as well, you're basically not a Nostra user, just so you know. Oh, is that true? Yeah. You have to have relay hints or else it's like, why use Nostra at all? Yeah. I've been I've been told that I'm not a Nostra user many times.  

[00:51:42] ODELL:

It's one of the one of the beauties of using Nostra is you're never a nostr user. You just gotta you gotta keep improving your setup. You gotta keep up.   So snorts in maintenance mode, like, you're not you don't have long term plans for that. What what about   I mean, I saw Marty Malmi,   one of the earliest contributors of Bitcoin.   He has his Iris client. It it seems like he just gave up on Iris, and now he's   co working with you on Snort. How what is what is the deal with that?  

[00:52:14] Unknown:

Yeah. So he's, like, he joined Snort, so he works on just the same code base as on Iris right now. It's kind of like a slight variation of Snort.   So he added, like, support for basically white labeling. So it's like you can you can roll your own snort, you know, and you can, like, toggle all of the different features,   on and off in the build config.   And so he has a build config for Iris, and I have one for, like, snort. And   I also launched another one recently called Miku app. It's like, it's supposed to be for, like it defaults to, like, Japanese relays, and   it defaults to Japanese. So  

[00:52:47] ODELL:

We have a lot of Japanese people. Right?  

[00:52:50] Unknown:

Yeah.   And I bought this domain, like, a long time ago, and I'm like, I might as well use it.   So, I I just deployed domain?   Meku.app  

[00:52:59] ODELL:

How do I spell that? M e k u.   Okay. That's what I thought.  

[00:53:04] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:53:05] ODELL:

To Grindr in the comments,   saying primal is the Coinbase of Noster.   I resent that metaphor.   I'm a big fan of metaphors.   Obviously,   it's important to disclose   that my venture fund, 1031,   has made 2 Noster Investments,   2 direct Noster Investments. 1 is is,   primal, and 1 is mutiny.   And then OpenSats really started taking off, and and we've been through OpenSats.   I think over 21 clients are funded through OpenSats.   And,   I you know, if if you look back, I mean, I think,   I   primal's never taken an Open Sets grant. I think, you know, if Open Sets existed at the time, like, he might have taken an open SaaS grant instead of venture funding.   And there's a there's a lot of benefits   to having   these no strings attached grants out there.  

But the reason I I I dislike that metaphor   is because Milan is taking great pains to not be the Coinbase of   Noster,   where you can run your own caching server. Unity actually runs their own caching server. Users can switch   between caching servers.   If you broadcast, it broadcasts directly to,   your relays on your relay list. He doesn't mess with your relay list. He's implementing the outbox model.   The the long term vision involves, you know, you checking relays to to make sure the caching server isn't lying to you. Basically, the trust you have in the caching server is is that it might not be showing you all the notes that exist. It might be lying through a mission.   So the long term dream is, like, if you catch one of the cache whatever caching server you're using, if you catch it omitting something   by by doing, like, a sample of your relays, then you switch automatically switch to another caching server.  

On the wallet side, like, I do think it's really compelling having a wallet built into a client. I think that's where all the clients are going.   It makes sense to me.   Obviously, his has lite KYC because it's powered by strike. It requires email verification.   But, ultimately, you can use any lightning address you want to receive zaps on primal.   So I I think,   to compare him to the the naked mole rat, Brian Armstrong, it's a little bit   disheartening to see. I think he's trying to do better, but at the end of the day oh, and, also, at the end of the day, like, you can just take your private key out of primal, which is, like, the ultimate freedom aspect of Noster,   and move it to Snort, move it to Amethyst, move it to Damas,   move it to Nostrudal,   move it to whatever clients you want to move it to.  

So I think he's he's he's trying to be better than that. I do understand it's a provocative metaphor. So I appreciate provocative metaphors because,   those are the ones that that get the most action, and I have I have I have respect for you in that regard.   I just have respect for you in general, not just in that regard, but,   yeah, that's my that's my 2 stats on   that metaphor.   I guess I kinda, like, sidelined   snort.   What are you working on anything else beside you don't have to be working on anything else besides and Snort, but are you working on anything besides   and Snort?  



[00:56:29] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm working on this torrent thing as well, although I haven't really What is the torrent thing?   It's called dtan.xyz.   Dtan, d t a n? Yep. It's like a distributed torrent archive on nostr.   It's like an acronym.  

[00:56:48] ODELL:

And, wait. Wait. So is it an o or an a?   A.   How is it distributed   torrent on Noster if it's an a? Archive.  

[00:56:56] Unknown:

Oh, archive. Okay. Yeah. And then the on is excluded.  

[00:57:02] ODELL:

I'm glad we got that sorted. Yeah. That's big confusion.  

[00:57:06] Unknown:

Bad marketing.   I've only really done, like, 2 major updates to that.   I'm in the process of, like, merging the NIP for Terence. So   there will be, like, another round of updates needed for that because there's some changes in the in the the NIP, which are not implemented on d ten.   But, yeah, it's basically like,   there's like a new kind for torrents, which lets you search for torrents on master.   And they have, like, the like, all the information that you need to basically download the torrents.   And you get basically   decentralized,   torrent index, which I don't think has ever existed.  

And there's a lot of cool things you could do with D10, but, again,   time time constrained it. So,  

[00:57:50] ODELL:

that's awesome.  

[00:57:52] Unknown:

But Nostradiol Nostradiol already supports torrents as well. Like I said, he pretty much supports everything.   So you can search for torrents on on Nostradiol as well.   And I'm in the middle of making a PR to this, like, this other system called Prowler.   It's like,   it's kinda like a scraper, like a torrent scraper.   It's used in a bunch of other systems for, like, automated downloads of different stuff, like TV shows.   So   having, like, a Nostra integration there would mean that people can   can find the the torrents on Nostra and and use those instead of the ones on those   other centralized torrent indexes.  



[00:58:32] ODELL:

Historically, the trackers, right, which is, like, what we call the centralized torrent indexes   that's the central point of failure. Like the Pirate Bay or something like that. Yeah. Those are the indexes. The tracker is something else. Oh.  

[00:58:44] Unknown:

Well, I've been using I've been using torrents for over a decade and got that wrong. That's great. Well, they're usually I think I think they're usually bundled together. Like, you can run a tracker and an indexer together and, like, people will   use that tracker, you know, with the torrents on that index pretty much. So what is a tracker?   A tracker basically keeps track of all the clients.   So, like, if you're running, like,   if you're running a torrent client, you you ask the tracker for, like, peers, basically.  

[00:59:14] ODELL:

I I wasn't laughing at you, by the way. I was laughing at the grinder saying that he respects me too, just doesn't always agree with me, and he hates the caps.   What do you Kieran, what do you think about the caps?   I decline to comment. You decline to comment on the caps.  

[00:59:31] Unknown:

I'm I I'm indifferent to the caps, really.  

[00:59:34] ODELL:

I'm personally committed to doing caps forever at this point.   So, like, Monster is my last social media. I have nothing else,   and I think I will just die in caps.   But I've I've had some second thoughts lately, and I'm trying to   reinvigorate   my my conviction because   there are occasionally things I say   that get taken out of context because they don't know I I only I only note in caps. So they think I'm just noting that note in caps. And they're like, holy shit. Like, that really hits. Like, why is he being so aggressive about it? Right.  

[01:00:13] Unknown:

But maybe that's the point. I don't know. Maybe you need, like, another n pub, like Odell Odell no caps.  

[01:00:20] ODELL:

No. I I mean, I have NIMS.   Right. K. NIMS exist. You go? They're not in caps because then you would know it was me. True. If some if I see someone on Noster in all caps, I'm gonna be like, that's Odell's name. Yeah. Exactly. But there are names that are in all caps that get accused of being me. Those are me. Okay.   We have to But that's what I would say if they were me. You know? True.   Yeah.  

[01:00:45] Unknown:

No. I do I do actually have a lot of plans for Snort. I know we're getting continually sidetracked, but, Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.   We have this,   we have this community leaders program, which I started building and then I kind of went on to something else.   But basically idea of community   leaders is like,   you know, this,   it's called like 21 bitcoin.world   or something like that. It's like these,   it's basically like a Bitcoin community building thing.   Have you heard of this?  

[01:01:17] ODELL:

Is is this is this g g too?  

[01:01:21] Unknown:

I don't remember. But, anyway, it's it's similar idea, but it's for it's for, like, Nostr.   So basically you could be like a community leader, it's like someone who   who's like a kind of like a spokesperson for Nostr or someone someone who likes to   like, get others to use Nostr, to tell people about Nostr.   And the idea with that is, like, we have subscriptions.   So   if you have a ref code, you can, like, earn a certain amount   of stats from people who use your ref code if they subscribe to Snort.   So the idea is like to, it's not really to get like more people on Snort but   it's it's kind of an incentive for people to   to use nostr in a way or to get more people to use nostr.  



[01:02:05] ODELL:

That's awesome.  

[01:02:06] Unknown:

It's still in progress, you know, as with pretty much everything I'm working on.  

[01:02:11] ODELL:

But if you go to It's forever progress. That's what you learn. That's that's that's what becoming an adult is, is you realize that you never finish anything. It's just constant forever.  

[01:02:20] Unknown:

Yeah.   But if you go to,   if you go to community, that's North Social. That's, like, the landing page for   and a lot of people have, like, applied to be become   leaders, community leaders, but I haven't actually   built the, like, the payout system for the referrals. So   it's, like, a lot of people waiting to become community leaders.   But there's other reasons to do it as well. Like, we want, you know, more direct feedback with certain communities. So there's like a really big thigh   like Noster   user base   because of this,   the guys that are running the Bitcoin Thailand they they have, like, so many people from Thailand using ZapStream and using Noster in general. And I'm, like, we need a way to because we had a very similar thing, like, back in   maybe February or March   last year,   with the Japanese users. There was, like, so many people from Japan signing up. Right. And that was because, like, certain people, like, I I don't know, you call them influencers or something, but  

[01:03:20] ODELL:

People with large audiences in Japan.  

[01:03:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Basically, like, they had a bunch of people   that were coming to Nastr, but then, like,   you couldn't actually, you know, get feedback about what they liked or disliked because   maybe they they didn't know how to communicate that or   there was no, like, communication channel basically for people to give feedback.   So another reason to do the community leaders is to have this kind of direct communication with those community communities.   So like if you have someone that speaks your native language you're probably going to be   much more open to like giving feedback to that person and that person can relay it to us.  

So it's another way to basically   get   more feedback from different regions in different native speaking languages   to, like, improve master and overall, I guess.  

[01:04:06] ODELL:

Have you talked to Huddl bot about this at all?   No.   So every anytime someone says communities to me,   I ask them if they've talked to huddlebot.   That is true. That is my,   that   my it was my unspoken promise to.   I never told him I was gonna do this. I just kinda do it.   But do you know you know his vision. Right?   I explained this to Will, like, 3 episodes ago. Not entirely.  

[01:04:35] Unknown:

I think I had to miss I think I missed that episode with Will, actually. Dude, you gotta listen. I have to go back and watch it because You don't have to listen. Get your work done. You know? But,  

[01:04:47] ODELL:

Hadalabad's   dream   is   that he can get his church group off of  

[01:04:53] Unknown:

Facebook Messenger. Yeah. I heard that part. Yeah.  

[01:04:57] ODELL:

Yeah. So, like, that's where he so he's, like, thinking hyperlocal. Right? Like, he's not thinking a country.   He and he's not even thinking a state or a nation or a town. He's thinking the the church one of the 20 churches in his town   get them over.   But I think it all kind of   like, Nasser's perfect for this.  

[01:05:20] Unknown:

I think it's a little bit different than than, like, what I'm trying to do with the community leaders.   Like, I guess he's trying to   trying to use NOS Noster for his community versus, like,   the community leaders as a way to get just more people on Noster in general. You know?   I mean, I don't. I can we can we go like, where where are we diverging here? Well, I mean, his his goal is to basically have, like, community relays and things like that. Like like, isolating that community. But this is just to bring   more people onto Noster, like, globally. You know?  



[01:05:56] ODELL:

Well, he's not actually   see, one of the things I do on dispatch is I speak for other people Right.   Which is not great situation because I usually   I usually fuck it up. But,   like, his idea is kind of   the cool part about Noster is you can have,   like, the best of both worlds. Right? So, like, you can have,   Thai people, people from Thailand that that that speak Thai,   they can get the benefits of the global Nostra ecosystem,   but they can also get the benefits of   consistently   smaller and smaller communities.   But   it's like   a it's a permeable wall. Like, some of the   if that makes sense. Like like, some of the content   should not pass the wall. Right? It's like if you're talking about certain things in your church, you don't want,   Kieran or Odell to read it.  

But at the same time, like, people in the church do wanna see things that are coming from the rest of the world, and they wanna interact with the rest of the world. And it's like, how do you  

[01:07:06] Unknown:

interact with that? But are you thinking of community leaders more like just a referral system? Yeah. Basically just a referral. Yeah. Okay. So you're thinking like way simpler. Yeah. Like, I don't want to to isolate those people. I I want I want Snort to be, like, as it is now, but I just want I want a way to incentivize,   like,   people to   get people to use Nostra by giving them, like, a split of their   subscriptions.  

[01:07:29] ODELL:

Got it.   Okay. So you just you just want a   a global   distributed set of of nostrils?   Yeah.  

[01:07:40] Unknown:

Okay. I'm I mean, people like rufflinks as well. I hate rufflinks.   I mean, some people. I said people. I didn't say Odell.   Odell. I'm speaking for Odell.  

[01:07:52] ODELL:

I hate I've never used a ref link.  

[01:07:55] Unknown:

Well, there are a lot of people who like them.  

[01:07:58] ODELL:

The one of the funny things is I really like Silent Link,   the eSIM for Bitcoin service. Yeah. I use that. And, he made me a ref link.   Okay. And we have, like, an automated matrix spot that, like,   says how many people use the ref link. He insisted on it. I was like, I don't wanna ref I don't like ref links.   And it just constantly just says   0.   And I just have to constantly tell them. I'm like, look. I'm telling so many people about it. I'm just not giving them my ref link. It's like, it's not   it's it's doing like the opposite.   You just it's like, I'm telling everyone, like, this is a great service. I'm just telling them to go to the website and not giving them the ref link. For whatever reason, I just think it's like   it's like a cheap there's too many people that have ruined ref links. You know? It's like you give them $5 back or you give them,   you know, 5,000 sats back,   and they will just shill whatever garbage is out there. So, like, as soon as I see a ref link, I just think less of the person.  

True. But I'm maybe I'm wrong. Like, I I did say earlier. Right? We gotta take the best of Slave Tech.   And ref links do work. They work.  

[01:09:13] Unknown:

If you're gonna share a link to, you know, to someone else, like,   they're gonna be more inclined to share it if if they're potentially gonna get something out of it. You know?  

[01:09:25] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I'm like the crazy person that, like, everything after the question mark, like, I backspace it out Right. Hang on all the the tracking links and stuff. Yeah.   I don't know. Maybe I'm   a masochist.   What else on Snort? Do you have anything else on Snort besides community leaders? Well, we have, like, subscriptions in general,  

[01:09:46] Unknown:

which is not doing too great. So I need to, like,   I need to expand on referral or the subscriptions in general. Like, there isn't you don't get a lot with this the subscriptions right now.   Like, you get the you get automatic translations which is really useful but that's only in the pro   the pro tier. Automatic translations make sense to me. Oh, god. It's so good. Oh, my god. It's so useful. Because I I follow, like, a bunch of the Japanese users.   And, like, they're just   sending, like, so many notes, like, every day. But I can actually read them. Like, it's perfectly readable because they're auto translated. What about auto translations in the opposite direction?  

[01:10:24] ODELL:

Yeah. Yeah. It works in every direction. So, like, you're No. But, I mean, but they need to have it. What if I am a subscriber   Right. And I wanna I wanna post a note in Japanese?   Like, it should be I should be I should be able to just press a button and snort and just send out a Japanese note.  

[01:10:41] Unknown:

Oh, you mean, like, translate before sending? Yeah. Right? The opposite.   I mean, you can't even send out. Right? If they're, like, a pro subscriber and and they see your note, it'll auto be it'll be auto translated to the I know. I'm saying the opposite, though. What's the point of that, though?  

[01:10:58] ODELL:

Do you don't you don't think people would use it? I mean,  

[01:11:02] Unknown:

well, I mean, you can just do that manually. I don't know. I guess. Yeah. I I I mean   I mean, when are you ever gonna wanna send a note in Japanese?  

[01:11:12] ODELL:

Maybe I do. I mean, I have. I when we had, like, all the Thai people join, I, like, manually went and and did, you know, shitty machine translation   Yeah. Into Thai. And then I fucked it up, actually, and I said the wrong thing. I didn't mean to say what I said, but   I did do it.   I did it once, and then I learned my lesson in English only from that point on. Right.  

[01:11:37] Unknown:

But I guess if if they had a pro subscription, they would auto translate it anyway. So  

[01:11:42] ODELL:

I think it was stay humble stacks asset, and they did something else, and then it got really bad. I said something completely wrong.   Yeah. The humble I think humble got,   mistranslated   Right. If I recall correctly.  

[01:11:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Unfortunately,   DeepL doesn't support thigh, so   you gotta use something else.  

[01:12:00] ODELL:

What is DeepL? Is that one of these  

[01:12:03] Unknown:

AI LLM things? Yeah. It's like the I actually don't know who makes that, but   Is it open source or is it I think it's OpenAI. I don't know if it's an open source thing. So it's closed? Yeah. It's the oh, it's totally closed. It's paid.  

[01:12:16] ODELL:

Okay. So that's what you're using? Yeah. I I I'm paying for that. How do you live with yourself? Why aren't you using an open solution?  

[01:12:23] Unknown:

Because I don't have a GPU to run it on. Okay. Fair enough.   I don't have the resources.  

[01:12:28] ODELL:

Okay. I'm like, I won't blame you for that.  

[01:12:31] Unknown:

Yeah. Maybe maybe I like, I am using some,   like, I do, like, a pre check on all of the notes   that are being translated to, like, make sure that it's not   the target language already. Because, like, you could, like, waste a lot of   money, like, translating from English to English, you know?   So I basically do, like, a a check. I'm like,   is this lang is the lang I have another, like, layer in front before I call DeepL.   It's like, what is the language of this? So I have, like, another AI thing, which I am running myself.   So it it checks and it detects the language.  

And And then it's like, okay. It's already Japanese. So why would I translate it to Japanese? You know? Right.   And I think I think Will had that that problem. He was paying because he's using DeepL as well.   But he was paying, like, a ridiculous amount. I'm only paying, like, $5 a month for it.  

[01:13:20] ODELL:

Well, I think Semisol figured it out for him. Right? He was Yeah. He wasn't doing a pre check.   Yeah. I like the auto translate in damas for purple pro subscribers.   Auto translate makes sense as a thing.   You see Sashin in the comments? I I accidentally said stay humiliated.   That was the I mean, I said stay humble in the translation. Right. And then it it it   got it got it got lost in translation. It's a   Happens. It's a it's a thing.   So what else for do you have anything else in mind? I mean, you said subscriptions aren't really  

[01:13:58] Unknown:

working, I guess. You know, the nib five thing is actually great. Like, that's where you want nib fives. They're still paying, and it's, like, it's really expensive, but they still pay. So I'm like, okay.   Go ahead.   Like, that's bringing in a decent amount every month. So I don't I don't that's why I haven't really invested that much time in subscriptions because, like, the net five thing is  

[01:14:18] ODELL:

it's already doing pretty well. Yeah. It's kinda weird. Will's been hesitant on the NIP five stuff. Oh, man. Like, people would pay for, you know, 3 letters at damas.io  

[01:14:27] Unknown:

or whatever. Yeah. I I told him because he was they were asking me, like,   oh, like, how is your subscription system doing? And and I'm like, yeah. Just just sell Net Fives because, like, people are buying them, like, way more than subscriptions.  

[01:14:41] ODELL:

Are you, are you familiar with Skiff Mail? They just got bought by Notion.  

[01:14:45] Unknown:

Nope. Never heard of it.  

[01:14:47] ODELL:

But they were like a privacy   email.   They were crypto bros, which should have been   the sign that we were they were fucked, but they're closing it down.   They're closing it down. They got bought by Notion. They're doing, honestly, they're doing the respectable thing. Like, it was it was supposed to be,   you know, client side encrypted email and drive and all you know, they were competing with Proton, basically.   And there were there was no way to continue that under a notion agreement, so they instead they're they're closing it down. But the reason I bring them up is because   they charge more if you did   a, like, sub 5 character email.  

And I think there's something there. I mean, it sounds kinda fucked up. I'd   you know, I'm an open book.   But I think there's something there, like, charge more if you wanna if you want a 3 character   nip 5,   you should pay more for that. If if you have a if you have a 10 character nip 5, that's less scarce. There's there's way more combinations.  

[01:15:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. We do that. So if you get, like, a Awesome.   If you do, like, less than 3 characters, it's, like, 90 k. But if you do, like, more than 3, it's, like, 50 k. In dollars or sats?  

[01:15:59] ODELL:

Sats. Okay.  

[01:16:03] Unknown:

Dollars. Yeah. It's $50,000.  

[01:16:07] ODELL:

Okay. So you already did my suggestion. Yeah. And I and,  

[01:16:12] Unknown:

what's it called again?   What's the other one called again? I forgot the name. I don't know what we're talking about. The other nib 5 service that you buy.   Noster Plebs? Noster Plebs, yep.  

[01:16:24] ODELL:

Lost the name there. It's not even a great domain.  

[01:16:28] Unknown:

They do that as well. They do like the length based thing.  

[01:16:31] ODELL:

Yeah. Length makes sense to me. Yep.   I like that.  

[01:16:37] Unknown:

So I mean Yeah. I mean I could tell you that there's been over a 1000 NIP 5 handles sold. Holy shit. Yeah. That's legit. And I have 3 domains now, so there's, like, more options for people. What are the other ones?   So you can get Snort Social, ZapStream, or Nostra gg. Nostra dot gg.  

[01:16:55] ODELL:

Okay. Wait. So I only have Odell at ZapStream?  

[01:17:00] Unknown:

Yes.  

[01:17:02] ODELL:

Okay. Well, what about impersonators?  

[01:17:04] Unknown:

Well, if they buy it, that's it. You're screwed. Well, I'm not gonna buy it. So   Thank you. Thank you for your honesty. The the person  

[01:17:13] ODELL:

the only real one is Odell at SapStream,   just for the freaks to let you know. There's too many. Like, I can't buy all of them. There's gonna be Odells at all the things. Right.   I'm fine with that primal gave you one for free. Yeah. But I don't use primals. I use my own domain, like a sovereign individual.   So   there's that. And I was actually using my own node until yesterday   where I switched to to primal's custodial wallet because my zaps the zaps weren't showing up on the zap stream. It was just for you mostly.   I was like, I can't have I can't do the zap stream   zap stream   without the zap showing up.  



[01:17:54] Unknown:

Yeah. There's actually a bug a bug as well with, like,   if you're using, like, the ZapStream   lightning address, it doesn't actually show the zaps. It's kind of messed up, like,   the ZapStream. Wait, really? ZapStream, Zapper doesn't show.  

[01:18:09] ODELL:

Why?  

[01:18:09] Unknown:

Fix it. There's a bug. Yeah.   You should fix it. I should. Let me let me just end this right here, and I'll go fix it.  

[01:18:18] ODELL:

I know I'm being kind of addict. I would say that   and I'm not gonna ever argue this again.   But   10/31 is an investor in primal and an investor in strike. So if I use the primal wallet, it's not really custodial for me.   I'm   I'm a small   piece of the custodian.   Right. Yeah. It's, like, kind of stuff I just keep telling yourself that. Yeah. I'm never gonna use this argument again, but I felt like it needed to be used once.  

[01:18:47] Unknown:

Well, it's it's used. It's burned now. There we go.  

[01:18:52] ODELL:

Dude, this has been fucking awesome. Thank you for joining.   I know you didn't think there was a lot I I think we could go on for hours.   We're not finished. We have to keep talking. Okay. What what else do you wanna talk about?   I know I'm the host.  

[01:19:06] Unknown:

I know. I was gonna say that we also have the the Snortdec as well. That's part of the pro plan. What is Snortdec? Is that, like, the tweet deck?  

[01:19:13] ODELL:

Yeah.   Dude, you gotta talk about this stuff more. Like,   Will is Will is, like, everyone's excited about note deck from Will. So am I. I'm I'm actually hoping to to help him out there. Okay. So you have Snort Deck.   How do I access Snort Deck?  

[01:19:31] Unknown:

If you're a pro subscriber,   If you go to I'm not one. Right? No. If you go to if you go to snort dot social slash  

[01:19:38] ODELL:

deck Okay. Snort dot social   slash deck.  

[01:19:42] Unknown:

I think it'll show you, like, a link that's, like, you need to be a pro subscriber,   I believe.  

[01:19:48] ODELL:

Let me see.   You must be a pro subscriber. Subscribe.   Okay.   Subscribe.   Alright. Okay. I'm I'm subscribing on air.   But, I mean, now I can't use Phoenix, so I'm gonna wait for my Tor   node. It's gonna take a minute.   Thank you. Thank you, Kaludis,   Evan,   for for making Zeus   and making it so I can easily connect to my Tor node.  

[01:20:26] Unknown:

Are you using LNC?   What? Are you using LNC?  

[01:20:31] ODELL:

Which one is that? There's so many Yeah. And lightning node connect. Yeah. I'm using lightning node connect. Yeah.  

[01:20:37] Unknown:

We have that on Snort as well, actually. We have You can   Yeah. Give me connect, like, your your node directly over LNC in the web.  

[01:20:48] ODELL:

Oh, it's it's saying that I didn't subscribe.   You did. You got my stats you got my stats, bro.  

[01:20:56] Unknown:

Yeah. The number went up to 36.   We now have 36 subscribers.  

[01:21:01] ODELL:

Like, that's all you have? Yeah. It's not. We're so early. Yeah. No. I think there was more in the beginning where people just stopped paying it. Wow. I only paid a 7 Sats fee on that. That's dope.  

[01:21:12] Unknown:

And that's going to my note as well. I'm using it. I Okay. Now it says I already have a subscription. Let's try again. Yeah. It might take a second to, like because it has to publish the subscription on Noster.  

[01:21:24] ODELL:

Okay. So, like It still it says I'm a subscriber on the subscribe page, but not on the deck page.  

[01:21:29] Unknown:

Yeah. So if you don't see   pro, like, at the very top next to the Snort name, then it hasn't, like, published the event yet. Well, when are you gonna publish it? It's automated. I it's I should publish it right away.  

[01:21:41] ODELL:

It's asking me to donate,   and I've just subscribed.   Well, while we're waiting,   there's conspiracies   that because, 10 30 1's an investor in primal that I'm on the top of the trending feed all the time.   What's your excuse for why I'm on the top of Snort Social's trending feed all the time?  

[01:22:00] Unknown:

Blame Nosterband.  

[01:22:03] ODELL:

Okay.  

[01:22:04] Unknown:

Yeah. Don't blame me. Always be on someone else. We're using the Nastorban feed for trending and for, like, trending people,   trending posts.  

[01:22:13] ODELL:

Okay. So you're just you're just outsourcing that to Nastorban?  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:22:18] ODELL:

And what do we know what Nasturband's algorithm is?  

[01:22:21] Unknown:

No idea.   It's closed source.  

[01:22:24] ODELL:

So Primals is open, I believe.   But I'll just say it out loud. I mean, the majority comes down to replies. That's why the good morning ones are always   higher up.   And you can't, though, you can't verify zaps. So, like, a zap is,   you know, a zap is a zap. It doesn't matter how much was zapped.  

[01:22:49] Unknown:

Right. Did you see that post from Ocean?   Yeah. With Bold 12? Yeah. Didn't they say that it's verifiable? Can we not use that in zaps,   the Bold 12?  

[01:23:00] ODELL:

Honestly, I'm so disenfranchised about bolt 12.   I believe that when I see it, that bolt 12 happens.   Because what be, like, huge for zaps.   Yeah. I mean, I think I think you can do verifiable with with charm and e cash. Like, I think that's where we're actually going.   Right. Yeah. I'm I'm in the middle of its own controversies, but, like, I think I think in 5, 10 years, like, the majority   of zaps are gonna be eCash.  

[01:23:29] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I would like to default to, like,   Cashew wallet on Snort.   So, like, as soon as you log in to Snort for the first time, you can   you'll have a cashew,   or you can pick, like, a cashew mint, and   maybe there'll be a recommended one, and you can have a balance, and you can start zapping right away.  

[01:23:49] ODELL:

Yeah. I like that. I think that's the future.   Especially, like, on chain fees, are are you   are you are you living in denial of 1 sapper bite?  

[01:24:01] Unknown:

What what do you mean?  

[01:24:03] ODELL:

Am I in denial? Like, you know fees are gonna go up. Right?  

[01:24:07] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:24:08] ODELL:

Oh, this is weird. I'm, like, logged in   to my serial dispatch handle on Snort even though my extension is  

[01:24:17] Unknown:

Oh, you might need to log out first if you were logged in before.  

[01:24:20] ODELL:

So did I just did I just subscribe to Pro on the wrong end pub?  

[01:24:25] Unknown:

No. It should've it should've signed an event with your extension.   So you would've subscribed with whatever your extension is set to. Dude, everyone's a fucking scammer.   Sign in with nostrils. I think you're gonna have to subscribe twice though.   Really?   No.  

[01:24:43] ODELL:

Oh, no. Now I'm in pro because I switched. Right. Yeah. I think it's Okay. So I subscribed I subscribed under Odell.  

[01:24:50] Unknown:

Yeah. It should it should sign because whenever you request, you know, the server, it uses the   NIP 98 auth, which is like a an Oscar event.   So you prove who you are, and then you can subscribe.  

[01:25:04] ODELL:

Okay. Now I'm in deck.   Cool.   I see still dispatch is live.   The grinder and one other zapped.   Yeah. Notifications. Yeah. Let's see if I can  

[01:25:21] Unknown:

Yeah. There's a lot of stuff we can do with that as well. Like it's Okay. So why is this broken? Do you see this? Why is it totally empty? Yeah. What's going on here?   Well, how many relays do you have?  

[01:25:36] ODELL:

I'm, I I didn't listen to Fiat, Jeff. I only use the big relays.   Okay. It shouldn't be like that. Mine looks totally Is it gonna show my is it gonna show my   and say on the screen? No. No. Just click on readings. There you go.   See, I only use the big ones plus bitcoinpark.com.  

[01:25:56] Unknown:

Okay.   I mean, it shouldn't be that slow.   Well there you go, it needs work like I said.   That's what I need to make it better  

[01:26:07] ODELL:

overall. And this is, like, incognito   Chrome. You know, it's, like, what the web web runs on.   K. So   if I press load more, does that help? Yeah. Why is it all empty, though? Nope. Nope.   Nope.  

[01:26:22] Unknown:

It thinks it's loading shit. And if you go to the home page, does it work?  

[01:26:26] ODELL:

Let's go to the home page. Why is that empty? Why is it empty? What's going on here? Reload the page? Let's see if I'm trending.   That's not too bad. You want me to reload the page? Yeah.   That's weird. I just reloaded.   And, look, you're, like, you're asking me to donate above an empty feed.  

[01:26:49] Unknown:

Donate for more bugs.  

[01:26:53] ODELL:

Yeah. We have this this zap splits thing as well. So, like, you can see that I mean, I didn't mean I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I was excited about deck.  

[01:27:01] Unknown:

I'll go back to I could share my screen, I guess.  

[01:27:05] ODELL:

I don't think you can. I don't think this allows you to. Disabled. Yeah. It doesn't allow you to.   Oh, I can let's see. There we go. Oh my god. It's beautiful. Well, how do I get that?  

[01:27:18] Unknown:

I don't know why it's not loading for you. That's weird.   Maybe maybe you need, like, a terabyte of RAM, like like Ryanair says. Yeah. But you can scroll here. You can scroll here. I have 32 gigs of RAM. I'm in the top one percent. I have 64.  

[01:27:32] ODELL:

You're also in the top 1%. Like, there's there's crazy people now that have a lot more than that. That's true.  

[01:27:39] Unknown:

But, yeah, you can get you also get, like, a modal video. It's beautiful, dude.   You can get the the long form posts here. Wow. I didn't know a guest could  

[01:27:49] ODELL:

stream their   that makes it so much easier.  

[01:27:52] Unknown:

Thanks. You can you got, like, a modal view basically whenever you click on anything here. I I used to love tweet deck. Tweet deck was my shit. I'm gonna put it in it. Something went wrong.  

[01:28:02] ODELL:

Well, it's a work in progress. Everything's in progress. It's always a work in progress. But, see, your home feed loads. Why doesn't my home feed load? I don't know. I guess you just need to be me.  

[01:28:11] Unknown:

Everything works for me.   Everything works on my machine.  

[01:28:15] ODELL:

Noted.   It's zappy too for you. It's quick. Yeah.  

[01:28:23] Unknown:

Maybe because you haven't used it before. Because like this all comes from the cache pretty much. I'm a subscriber.   You are.   But like I said, there's there's a bunch of things actually if you go to   subscribe. You could you should also see your Noster addresses here. You know the ones that you I transferred   to you? You can, like, manage them here. Let me check.  

[01:28:44] ODELL:

So   Noster address.   Oh, download zap.stream.  

[01:28:49] Unknown:

Let's fucking go. And you can transfer it, and you can we have, like, a   It's cool that you can transfer it. Yeah. I'm not sure how many people actually use that.  

[01:28:59] ODELL:

But we just transfer?  

[01:29:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's like the dream of all domain hoarders everywhere. They're like, oh, I'm just gonna sell my domains. And no one ever does. You can just hold on to them. Back in February when, like, there was a huge, like, amount of people from China joining, they bought so many, like, handles, like, everything. Like,   all the all the brand names, like, they're all taken. That's awesome. They just bought up so many of them. Yeah. And that's subscription. Right? Like, they have to keep paying? No. It's once off. Dude, what? It's once off.   But if you if you pay for the subscription, you get the NIP 5, and that one's You should have learned from Namecheap and  

[01:29:37] ODELL:

DNS and shit. Like, you gotta No. No.   9.99 a year.  

[01:29:44] Unknown:

No. Why? It's not. If if you pay the this one, the fan rate, that includes an address. So you get one if you're a subscriber, but you have to pay every month.  

[01:29:52] ODELL:

But why wouldn't you make NIP 5 a subscription thing? Like, it should be a subscription thing. Am I crazy?  

[01:29:59] Unknown:

Well, it's like a one soft thing. It's, like, 10 times more than   this the like, the bay the lowest subscription.   So, like, you pay it once off, and then,   like, you're good. Whereas this one, you have to pay every month to keep it.   I mean, someone's asking me in the comments what extension I'm using. I'm using no s two x. Like, I don't think that changes anything. Right? Yeah. I'm using that as well. It's so clean. It's so I know that. So simple. Yeah. And they added NIP 44 as well. So, hopefully, we can do the the new NIP 17 DMs soon in in Snort. I was working on that the other day. Oh, did you see what Jeff came up with? Oh, yeah. His double ratchet DMs?   Yeah. It's like it's a lot of words, but I'm about halfway through. So  

[01:30:41] ODELL:

yeah. That's really interesting. I didn't read it. I just zapped and repost.  

[01:30:45] Unknown:

Of course.   I'm gonna have to implement it though, so I kinda need to read it. Fair enough. Fair enough. I figured I'd read it eventually.  

[01:30:55] ODELL:

But DMs are sort like, that's bad. It's really bad right now. Yeah.  

[01:31:00] Unknown:

Well, the the NIP 17 DMs is, like, much better.  

[01:31:04] ODELL:

So that's that's Do you wanna go through that? What NIP 17 is gift wrap. Right?  

[01:31:08] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like the it's gift wrap with, like, a different encryption scheme as well. Okay. I'm removing your screen share, and we're going back to the chat. K.   The   it's actually some of the gift wrapping some of the   schemes used in in the 17 DMs are used in the new   proposal as well. So   it's kind of sharing some of those   parts, you know,   for the new DMs,   for the ratchet DMs.  

[01:31:38] ODELL:

Yeah. It's like a it's like NIP 17 plus plus. Right?   Basically. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah.   We just iterate. We improve over time. That's it. That's the one. Never ending. Never finished.   Awesome. Well, I mean,   I think Snort Deck could be dope if it worked.  

[01:32:00] Unknown:

True.  

[01:32:01] ODELL:

Like I said, there's there's a lot of cool things we could do. And, also, I didn't know it existed, first of all. I found out on air.   There you go. We also have this I never tend to keep up with everything, but I think I'm, like, in the top.   Yeah. It's it's hard to keep up. Top 1% of of, like, keeping up with shit.  

[01:32:22] Unknown:

You can also use your,   your Noster address as, like, an email address.  

[01:32:26] ODELL:

Why?  

[01:32:27] Unknown:

Yeah. So if you don't wanna, like, if you don't wanna sign up to an email provider, you can use  

[01:32:32] ODELL:

the the nostr one. Odell, it's app dot stream?  

[01:32:35] Unknown:

Not that one. The Snort ones.  

[01:32:37] ODELL:

And then where does it go? Into my DMs? Yeah. DMs you the email. Do people actually use that? Yeah. A good few people use it.   But then anyone with my end pub could just   see which emails I'm getting. Right?  

[01:32:53] Unknown:

Well, I mean, it just shows that Snort is DM ing you, basically.  

[01:32:56] ODELL:

So it's just it's just a bunch of Snort DMs in my emails.   Yeah. But then how do I re can I reply?  

[01:33:03] Unknown:

No. Not yet.   So it's for, like, verification codes or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you don't wanna use, like, Google or Gmail or whatever.  

[01:33:13] ODELL:

Muni is telling me I have to log out and log back in.   Is that a thing?   Let's see. Maybe.   Log out.  

[01:33:21] Unknown:

Yeah. If you haven't used it in a while, sometimes it can   it holds on to the cache, you know, for the for the older versions.  

[01:33:29] ODELL:

By the way, you don't have a login button. You have a sign up button, and then after that, it's like login.  

[01:33:34] Unknown:

Tell.  

[01:33:36] ODELL:

Okay.  

[01:33:37] Unknown:

He he wanted it like that, so that's how it is.  

[01:33:42] ODELL:

Okay. I logged out, logged back in.   I can't close the browser because   we're live.   Yeah. It still doesn't work. Muni, you're wrong.  

[01:33:52] Unknown:

That's weird. I I didn't trust. I verified, and you were wrong. I could log in as you, See what it looks like. Yeah. Do that.  

[01:34:02] ODELL:

Do you need my n pub? It's n pub 1qny.   I don't know any of the other ones.  

[01:34:09] Unknown:

Just type Odell. It's upstream and log in. Really? Oh, wow. That's clean.  

[01:34:14] ODELL:

This is why I don't use Nostra DMs.   By the way, he's logging in with the pub key, so it's a view only mode. It's he he's not able to   post a humiliated  

[01:34:28] Unknown:

Yeah. It's not loading. I guess we'll look. What the fuck's going on?   Crappy code. You know?  

[01:34:34] ODELL:

Okay. Well, I can't complain. I appreciate you.   Dude, do you have anything else you wanna talk about?   I tried to wrap this, like, 30 minutes ago. Yeah. Sorry. I just thought we should just keep going. You know? Yeah. You're right. You're right. I I mean, you were the one who told me originally we have nothing to talk about, and you were absolutely wrong about that.  

[01:34:55] Unknown:

Well, I didn't say we had nothing to talk about. I said it's I'm not very interesting.  

[01:34:59] ODELL:

That's what I said. Is that actually what you said? Yeah.   Let me check.   Oh, you did say you weren't very interesting. You're right.   Do you remember what my response was?   Yep.   LMFAO   bullshit.   Yep. And I think I was correct. Shout out me.   Well, I think this has been a great rep. What I would like to do, Kieran, is I would like to have you on more often.   Would you agree to that?   Sure. As long as it's early. Have you ever been on a podcast before?  

[01:35:43] Unknown:

Yes, I think. I was on one of the What?  

[01:35:47] ODELL:

I was on Gladchain Radio. I was on Not a podcast. Okay. Whatever.  

[01:35:52] Unknown:

I was on,   I was on another one, like, really early.  

[01:35:58] ODELL:

I forgot the name. I love the PBR guys. I'm not trying to be an asshole.   Oh, let's talk about that actually.  

[01:36:04] Unknown:

Alright. Yeah. I also built Noster Nests 2.9 You rebuilt Noster Nests?   Yeah. That was a Nest. So   I was on Noster Nests for people.  

[01:36:13] ODELL:

Competitor to Spaces   and Clubhouse. Right?   Audio only.   Yep. Direct streams.  

[01:36:21] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it existed,   but it wasn't really like an Oster client.  

[01:36:26] ODELL:

It was just like a centralized website  

[01:36:29] Unknown:

that you Well, yeah. You just kind of prove who you are, basically Yeah. On Nostr.   But this one is like an actual like, everything's Nostr apart from the the audio. Same exact same setup as AppStream pretty much. It's like audio's AppStream. Right? Basically. Yeah. So it's very similar. That's why it was it only took me, like, a month to build it because it was, like, a lot it was, like, a new back end. It's not the same back end as AppStream.   It's, it's on another platform, which is also open source called,   LiveKit.  

LiveKit.   It's for audio, but they also support video as well. But it's mostly for, like, audio rooms, like,   group calls and video calls, that kind of thing.   But, we're using it only for the audio.   Yeah. That it worked pretty well. And, again, there's still so much you can do with that. But, again, I don't have that much time. So it's hard to, like, prioritize things when you have all these different projects.  

[01:37:19] ODELL:

So how did that work? I mean, I'm my understanding is Derek Ross was, like, the man behind Nostra Nests.  

[01:37:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Basically.  

[01:37:27] ODELL:

Did he just reach out to you and was, like, can you rebuild Nastr Nest for free and then you did it? No. There was a bounty actually.  

[01:37:34] Unknown:

Oh.   Yeah. So there was a bounty but it's been around for like a year.   And,   I guess whenever,   whenever Frog Talk was on, it's like a 24 hour thing they do every year. When it was on the 2nd time,  

[01:37:49] ODELL:

I was like Every year for 2 times.  

[01:37:51] Unknown:

I just, like, I I tuned into that. I'm like, this sucks. Like, we need to build   We need to build a new one. It's kind of painful.   Yeah. It's been our it's been, you know, asked for for so long for someone to like step up and try and build it.   And then   Fia Jaff, like, also messaged me or messaged Derek   a few days later and was like, someone needs to build this. Come on. Like, what's going on?   And then,   I messaged Derek around the same time, and I was like,   I think I might, you know, try and build this thing because, you know, the current one sucks.   And then eventually, FHF ended up remind kind of reminding me, but also being like, why aren't you building it yet? And then I just started working on it. So He's aggressive in the best way possible. Yeah. Derek Derek always thanks Fijaf, the the Nostra CEO, for for getting me to build it.  



[01:38:42] ODELL:

Well, thank you for building it. I think that could also be one of the killer apps for   Nostra because, I mean, Twitter Spaces sucks.   Clubhouse is bullshit.   And, obviously, there is demand for that type of  

[01:38:56] Unknown:

product. Yeah. I I really like it as well because it's like a little it's a it's, like, way more I know it's AppStream, like, you don't have as as great of a kind of connection with the other people that are watching, so   maybe you just wanna, like, chill and and talk. It's like   it's, like, it's got a little bit more connection to the people that are there because you're just like, like, zap stream. I, like, can't pull people up. Right. Exactly.   So it's kind of like it's in the middle between, like,   ZapStream   and   and somewhere else, like, text chat, I guess. Like, a better text chat for a group group chat. But what I do like is that, like, you made text chat a first class citizen, like ZapStream,  

[01:39:32] ODELL:

which is like what Twitter space is missing. Like, the overwhelming majority of people in the Twitter spaces   shouldn't be contributing via audio. They should be contributing   via text, and they can't. Yeah.   Because, like, you know, the problem is is, like, you bring up, like, a rando in a Twitter spaces,   and they just go on and on and on and on. It's derail the whole conversation.   But if if you have them, like,   test their thesis and, like, do some proof of work in the text chat first before you bring them up, like, you can have a better conversation.  

[01:40:06] Unknown:

True.   No. It's it's actually identical, like, in terms of noster,   events to ZapStream.   So, like, nests and  

[01:40:14] ODELL:

and streams on ZapStream are identical. Yep. This is why you're prolific. There's gonna be 2 of the main killer apps, I think, of Nasr over the next 5 years.  

[01:40:24] Unknown:

We'll see where it goes.  

[01:40:25] ODELL:

You're so humble.  

[01:40:27] Unknown:

You I mean, you gotta build. You gotta build something, or else you'll never know.  

[01:40:32] ODELL:

Damn right.   Well, I oh, one more thing.   I you know, we could just go on forever.   So you know how, like,   we have   the last comment in the live stream is this n pub one x   dlnqtt.   He's asking a question. The question is irrelevant right now.   The names don't pop up   unless I close   the window and open the window again.  

[01:41:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Why is that? Is this a a support call? Or  

[01:41:10] ODELL:

Yes.  

[01:41:12] Unknown:

I loved another stream with   with Mutiny. You were like, I was asking a ton of questions.   Yeah. You were on the opposite you were on the opposite side of that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't expect you to actually read them out, though. Well, we got where we're at. Could, like, help me.  

[01:41:26] ODELL:

I mean, we were talking about, like, NAS versus streams. Like, dispatch First of all, dispatch existed before Clubhouse existed.   But it's like it, like, straddles the middle ground between, like, a heavily added   p Peter McCormick or Stefan Lavera podcast.   Like, we're live. We're unedited.   We have a text chat, but we're not Nostra Nast. We're not Twitter Spaces.   Like, it's like, dispatch is, like, kinda in the middle, but the the audience interaction is, like, a key aspect of it.   Yeah. So you're welcome.  

[01:41:56] Unknown:

It it doesn't load because   of bugs, basically.  

[01:42:01] ODELL:

But it's I see it. Because I'm, like, actually run it's like a noster client in the web browser. Right?  

[01:42:06] Unknown:

Yeah. What what is this thing you have, by the way, the window?   What do you mean? Like, the one that you're sharing on the stream.  

[01:42:14] ODELL:

See, like, I just   wait. I reloaded it, and now his name popped up. Let's see. Share.   So this is,   if you go to wiz.biz/citadel.  

[01:42:27] Unknown:

Okay. So it's like a like a page for your stream?  

[01:42:30] ODELL:

Yeah. Wiz Wiz made it for me Okay.   Because I asked him politely,   and I said that Noster is the future, and I need my Noster live chat.   And I was talking to you actually   at the same time. I was like, I need the Noster live chat to be a permanent link   so that I can embed it with iframes into this page. Right. And so, like, at any point, if you go to wiz.biz/citadel,   you get what I'm screen sharing.   Yeah.   And then he also made this clock thing   because the regular mempooled out space didn't look nice next to the chat. Yeah.   And, like, you you mentioned, like, there's a lot of ideas out there. Like, I'm the ideas guy. K. You know, I don't actually   I support   I build things that support people who build things,   and then I also overload them with ideas.  



[01:43:25] Unknown:

Well, I can tell you that I'm already  

[01:43:27] ODELL:

overloaded with ideas. Yeah. That's but that's what I do. I'm I've been good with you. I I don't think I've overloaded you with ideas. I'm I'm not What was that one idea, though? Positive.  

[01:43:37] Unknown:

The Bitcoin TV one?  

[01:43:39] ODELL:

Yeah. That I mean, I didn't overload you with it. I just mentioned it. I'm I'm wondering what's what's happened to that idea. And the idea remains. Like, Bitcoin TV should be ZapStream.   Like, that's what it should be.   But, like, we stopped like, Bitcoin TV okay. Let's talk about it.   Bitcoin TV   was this idea that, like, we needed   a place that did this was prenoster,   and and   I was afraid my content was gonna get censored   off of YouTube. I'm still amazed that I haven't been kicked off of YouTube yet.   I'm really amazed that Marty hasn't been kicked off of YouTube.   But, like, Bitcoin TV was the idea, like, okay. Let we need a place where, first of all, you can't get kicked off because it's Bitcoiners hosting the content.  

Completely centralized, obviously, but Bitcoiners hosting the content.   Second of all, you don't get recommended shit corner videos. Right? Like, you go to your favorite corner on YouTube,   and, like, the next video they recommend is a shit corner video. So that doesn't happen.   And then third of all, like, really wanted, you know, Bitcoin payments built in, like, value for value lightning stuff.   And we built it all on on peer tube,   because open source is amazing, and you should use, like, the predominant FOSS project.   And I'm like, oh, I only have love for peer 2 maintainers and developers,   but, like, that project is a fucking mess.  

And then we   had Bitcorders upload terabytes of content onto our peer tube instance.   And it's just been a real mess. And then I discovered ZapStream, and I just I don't even use bit I I maintain Bitcoin TV.   I'm one of the 3 maintainers of it.   But,   I mean, I only use ZapStream. Like, ZapStream is fucking awesome.   But I think   bitcointv.com's  

[01:45:34] Unknown:

a stronger domain. So that's basically where I stand. Right. I actually I tried to I requested to mirror  

[01:45:40] ODELL:

Bitcoin TV before because I'm like How did you do that? Through peer tube? Yeah. On peer tube. I was running a peer tube. Did we agree to your did we agree to your request? It was like  

[01:45:51] Unknown:

a activity pub thing. Yeah. I I don't know how it works, but I I requested. I'm like, I have, like, 50 terabytes of space, and I'll be happy to mirror this stuff for you. I don't know how how it works, but, like, I requested  

[01:46:02] ODELL:

it. I think it was 10 terabytes at the time. It was so I'm not gonna throw Wizz under the bus,   but Wiz is in charge of that aspect.   And   he strongly believes that any mirrors we have degrades performance because he runs, like, 4 ISPs.  

[01:46:23] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:46:24] ODELL:

Yeah. That makes sense. He doesn't let anyone mirror our content.   Yeah.   He has, like, you know, jurisdiction he has   ISPs around the globe. So, like, depending on where you hit,   you go to his servers in that region.   But, yeah, Bitcoin TV is garbage. Like, don't use it.   But, yeah, I mean, that's why I brought it up is because, I mean, ZapStream is so is is   in my mind,   ZapStream is what I wanted Bitcoin TV to be at some point.  

[01:46:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I think we can do it. I mean, we have designs for, like,   like, regular videos and, like,   not live streams, but I'm   kinda reliant on this, you know, system to process videos. But I guess if you're just linking them, you know, like Flair Pub does.  

[01:47:15] ODELL:

Well, Flair is done.   Is is it down? I think he's I think he   discontinued it. It's no longer I don't even think it's   it's not even you can't even say it's not oh, it's still there.  

[01:47:28] Unknown:

Didn't say flare is done? I I think he was just he said that a bunch a bunch of different projects and Oh, Flare's   awesome. Yeah. Well, we could we could use the same spec as Flare. I think I think Bookmark supports it as well. Yeah. I like that Flare doesn't actually try and host everything.   Yeah.   No. We we have designs for, like,   a a YouTube type   kind   of recommended bar   and the comment section underneath the video and and stuff like that, but   we kinda   try to keep it, you know,   the Twitch killer first approach, and then   maybe we can add this these kind of,   pre rendered video uploads   later. So we're not not quite there, but I think we could totally do that.  

You know, have because then you basically have Bitcoin TV, right? You would have   just a place to see all those Yeah, the YouTube competitor.   Yeah.  

[01:48:26] ODELL:

You can do both. I mean, you can do both on I wanna be able to send I wanna be able to send people to a place where they can watch, like, good Bitcoin Nostra content.   Yeah.   But I think it it's ZapStream is very close to it already.  

[01:48:40] Unknown:

It is. Yeah.  

[01:48:42] ODELL:

I mean, I would just   since we're   an hour and 50 minutes into the   into the show, we only have the rider dies now. So I give you guys a little bit of context.   Like, the the the real context happens   this late in in the shows.   Like most people that left the fiat world and went into the Bitcoin world and wanted to surround themselves with Bitcoin, and now Nasr,   full time.   Like, I make way, way, way, way less money   than I did in the fiat world.   Most of my projects lose money. Bitcoin Park has lost a tremendous amount of money. Bitcoin TV has lost slightly less money.   Open stats makes me no money by design, which is actually, like, quite successful because it's it's 0. I don't   lose money. I don't make money on it. It was, like, a little bit personal contributions that I made in the beginning. But besides my time, I haven't lost money on open sets.  

Rabbit hole recap,   basically doesn't make me much money even though it's got ads because I just recommend the best product. So it doesn't matter if you pay me an ad or not. So the people that make the best products don't pay for ads,   and the people that make the bad products don't pay for ads because they know I'm gonna tell people not to use them regardless.   And then 10:31 is, like, barely making me   money,   but it's like a long term play that   if you invest in the best of Bitcoin and Noster, like, hopefully,   long term, it should   pay   good equity value,   which I think is true. But in in the short term, it hasn't really made me much money. And I think this is a trend that you see with almost every person   that is operating   ethically   in the Bitcoin space or trying to operate as ethically as possible in the Bitcoin space, which is   and and especially the nostril space, which is even more nascent, which is that   there's not much money to go around, and it's a fucking grind.  

But you're paid off in the dividends of of freedom   and feeling fulfilled, and   that's what keeps us going.   But, yeah, Bitcoin TV has just been a fucking money sink, I guess, was my point.   Which is I warned you about. Right, Kieran? I did warn you about. I was Yeah. You you were you're trying to scare me away from that idea.   Well, I was I was trying to, like, Twitch. One of the big things that Twitch did was not 90 days. It's like a week.   Like, they store your video. I think it's a month. No? They, like, barely store your video. Right. Right?  

[01:51:30] Unknown:

Can you even download the video from there? I don't think so.  

[01:51:35] ODELL:

Yeah. But they, like, made an active point. They were like, we're not YouTube. Like, you're we're not an archive for your content. Like, people come here to watch you live,  

[01:51:44] Unknown:

and we will not continue hosting it and and delivering it to people. Yeah. Like, what what a lot of people can do on ZapStream as well is, like,   you can use this restream feature. We have a restream feature that's included   where you can, like if you stream to ZapStream, you can automatically, like, restream to any number of other platforms. Right. Because I pay Restream, like, $600   a year or something. Right. So you can do that for free on on ZapStream.   You can, like, push your stream to YouTube or Twitch or any anywhere else. And so what you can do is, like, don't pay the ZapStream   best rate to have recordings   and just use the and just use the forwarder to, like, send it to YouTube and have them save it for you. So, like, you use use a That's what I do. Oh, exactly. I mean, but I don't use I I pay Restream because I like  

[01:52:33] ODELL:

I don't know. Their interface is great. Like, you see my nice banner on the bottom and shit? Yeah.   Like, it's just dependable. But, like, YouTube   like, I'm a 100%, like, as much as I shit on Slave Tech, whatever, like, YouTube has the full archive. Right? Absolutely.  

[01:52:49] Unknown:

And you better make a backup because they can do it. The backup. I have everything. Yeah.  

[01:52:55] ODELL:

I the for a while, I was putting torrents up, actually. You could download a torrent of everything.   Because I believe   I believe all this should be available to everybody.   And if they don't find it helpful, then don't listen.   But, it should be available to everyone for free.   And then if they find value, they should donate.  

[01:53:16] Unknown:

I'm wondering how we can get the the ZapStream,   like, chats in these applications because some people have been using   StreamYard, and they're like, how can I get my ZapStream   chats in StreamYard?   That would be kinda cool.  

[01:53:30] ODELL:

Well, that's why I'm, like, using the screen sharing basically is how I'm doing it. Right?   Yeah. But they they they show those, like, comments on the screen, and they, like, go through them, and they're, like, probably more. Choose. They pick and choose, like, who they like. Right? Yeah. Like, one of the beaut I mean, I honestly think that is not a feature people want because I think most streamers don't have the balls   to have the live unmodified chat on screen.   Because, like, if you're   if you're like   like a Peterson or something where, like, the trolls are, like, destroying you and you just can't handle, like, cyberbullying,   like, you're not willing to there's a reason why most shows are not live unedited shows with a live chat display. Like, I to this day, I don't think anyone has   tried to replicate the model of of dispatch.  

And it's because it's a little bit masochist, but also it's, like, a little bit too free for most people.  

[01:54:31] Unknown:

I think on StreamYard, like, they're, like, selecting, you know, which ones to show. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. They're picking and choosing their favorites. But they're basically asking me, like, how do I get the the ZapStream comments in here so I can get them on screen? Right. Because on StreamYard  

[01:54:45] ODELL:

and on Restream,   like, it pulls in YouTube and Twitch and the other large ones, and so then you can choose   you can choose which ones you pull in. Right.  

[01:54:58] Unknown:

I don't know if it's possible, though, with with with StreamYard and  

[01:55:02] ODELL:

and recently they do it. I think there's, like, some kind of chat API.   Yeah. They're pretty locked down. You have to ask their permission. Like, StreamYard like, you have to reach out to StreamYard and be like, here's my API. Like, pull in my chats.  

[01:55:15] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:55:17] ODELL:

Like, I used to if you go back on dispatch, like, you can see the evolution of it. Like, it used to be,   like, matrix.   First of all, it used to be that Twitch and YouTube were the only ones shown because that's what Restream allowed me to do.   And then I, like, figured out a way to do screen share to bring Matrix in.   And then I figured out a way to do screen share to bring Noster in, but I was still doing the Twitch and   the YouTube comments, but they were larger than the Noster comments. And I didn't like that they were larger.   You know? I I can I can do it right now? Most people don't comment because   but see, like, see how much larger it is? Oh, yeah. That's ridiculous.  

Like, they they don't deserve that. They're not in the lost nostril live chat. So I I pulled them out, and now I just do the nostril live chat alone.  

[01:56:10] Unknown:

There is no second best. But that's  

[01:56:13] ODELL:

that's the evolution of   of of me playing around with,   the large streaming providers.  

[01:56:20] Unknown:

Bro, don't you even sign every single comment you write?  

[01:56:23] ODELL:

I do. Most most usually.  

[01:56:26] Unknown:

Oh, no, sir. You do. That's for sure.  

[01:56:29] ODELL:

I do wonder about that. I mean, before we wrap I mean, we've just been gone. I told you we had a lot to talk about.   You are very interesting, sir.   I do   there is, like,   there's this, like, privacy concern that we're, like, we're not considering   or that we are consider some of us are considering, but most of us aren't considering. That's like we're broadcasting all this stuff,   all this text,   specifically on Noster, all this text that is signed.   It gets it's literally just like, this is definitely me.   And we're broadcasting it's a whole world. You can't delete it. Like, there's a nip for deletes. Like, you're not you're not actually really deleting stuff. I mean, you could never if they're just scraping everything in real time, there's  

[01:57:16] Unknown:

you have no you have no chance, you know?  

[01:57:18] ODELL:

They have proof that you you said it even if you try to delete it. I think it's important for people to realize that. It's like it's a public broadcasting. Like, people will know you said this. Exactly. Yeah.   And when you said it.   And   and and I hope people realize that's what they're doing when they're out there. There's a risk that comes with all this freedom.   Yeah. Yeah. Freedom isn't free.   Okay, dude. This is fucking awesome.   So we're gonna do this often.   Or, I mean, not it doesn't have to be like, depending on what your definition of often is, but, like, I would like I would like to have you on in a reoccurring basis. Are we cool with that?  

[01:58:02] Unknown:

Sure.  

[01:58:03] ODELL:

Awesome. Thank you, Karen.   Do you have any final thoughts, for the listeners before we wrap?  

[01:58:10] Unknown:

Watch this space.   Always shipping.   Thanks for watching.   Some people watched, that's great.   Yeah. I'm I'm excited to just   try out new things, try out Blossom, try out this, try out that, and kill as many centralized platforms as possible.  

[01:58:29] ODELL:

Let's fucking go. Well, I appreciate you, Kieran. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for everything you're building.   Whether you believe it or not, you're a fucking legend.   Huge shout out to the freaks who joined us in the live chat. You guys make the show unique. It would not be possible without you.   And huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show   using Bitcoin, whether that's through podcasting 2 point o apps, like Fountain or Breeze or through ZapStream itself,   which we discussed at length here.   Your sets do not go unnoticed.  

They keep me going,   particularly the messages. Fucking awesome. Our largest,   donations this week were from 8 Mythrender   with 48,000 sats, Pringle Stacks with 22,000 sats, Gary Krause with 20,000 sats, and JPAK   with 15,000   sats. That's combined through podcasting 2.0   and ZapStream.   I appreciate you. Thank you, guys.   Thank you, Karen. Keep building.   You're a fucking boss.   Love you, freaks.   That was that track was For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield.   Originally recorded in 1966.   That was a remaster.   You know, it's easy to get caught up in the day to day, but   this fight that we're a part of is a fight that has been going on for many fucking years, decades decades.  

I hope you guys enjoyed this trip.   I sure did.   I got a great rip lined up with Ben Arck tomorrow.   Talk Ellen Bits. Talk Noster. We're gonna talk about all the things. Who the hell knows what we're gonna talk about?   That's at 1700 UTC, our usual time.   I love you all. Stay on.