Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 126
BLOCK: 840543
PRICE: 1500 sats per dollar
TOPICS: building the damus nostr client, bitcoin influence on nostr, zaps, opensats concerns

project website: https://damus.io

will on nostr: https://primal.net/p/npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s

website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com
nostr live chat: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com/stream⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
nostr account: ⁠https://primal.net/odell⁠
youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@citadeldispatch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
stream sats to the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.fountain.fm/

(00:00:00) Fox Business Intro Clip

(00:01:27) Introduction to Citadel Dispatch

(00:02:30) Discussion on building NostrDB, outbox model, and decentralized relay system.

(00:38:26) Discussion about NostrDB and verifying notes

(00:39:23) Designing a Nostr client with the outbox model

(00:39:47) Importance of fast implementation and new technology in multiplatform client development

(01:10:49) Discussion on the demand for a nice, fancy NIP5 from Damus

(01:11:12) Exploration of the scarcity of a namespace in Damus

(01:11:31) Conversation on default media uploads in Damus and thoughts on media uploads going forward

(01:49:43) Importance of transparency and feedback in handling rejection reasons for OpenSats grants

(01:50:11) Discussion on the significance of zaps and the challenges of revenue generation

(01:51:12) The need for increasing user base and different strategies for growth

[00:00:01] Unknown:

That   you think interest rates are going higher and that you wanna get paid your MMA bonus in Bitcoin. Right?  

[00:00:08] Unknown:

100%.   That's a that's a huge part of the Austrian Economic School. Right? Supply and demand and scarcity,   And I think Bitcoin represents that the the Bitcoin, even though it's it's dropping a little bit, I think is a   is a defense against the   the the tired state is a defense against inflation too because eventually it's going go up because   everybody's knowing what Bitcoin is, and, the dollar is losing value because the interest rates because the government keeps,   printing money Right. Keep doing handouts, keeping doing, like, welfare to the people. They they are not trying to to to control   the supply of the money. They are always printing more, so I think that's going to be beneficial   to Bitcoin.  



[00:01:27] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive   live show   focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   That intro clip   was on Fox Business.   This US UFC fighter, his his last name is Moyano,   won a fight in UFC 300 and then immediately started shilling Austrian Economics,   and now it appears he's a Bitcoin influencer   in the latest era of everyone's a Bitcoin influencer now. And he has recently launched his new Bitcoin podcast.   I presume it's about Bitcoin and Austrian economics,   called show me the money.  

Pretty kind of crazy timeline.   I have a great guest, joining us, this week, return guest.   I believe he was last on the show,   Citadel dispatch 63 back in April 2022.   We have Will here, jb55,   the creator of Domus.  

[00:02:31] Unknown:

How's it going, Will? Hey, guys. Yeah. Thanks for having me.   It's been a while, but,   it seems seems like you've been busy with all these episodes.  

[00:02:40] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, we're at 126   now.   Been busy with a lot of shit,   as have you. Nostra has come a really long way. I will say,   to all the freaks, if you haven't listened   to episode 63, that was with Fiat Jaffe and mister Kooks,   and Will.   You should definitely check it out. It was the super, super early days of Noster.  

[00:03:05] Unknown:

And they're very early There was no mobile clients. There was, I think, I was just starting to build on us in in during that episode. So We were, like, mostly talking in theoreticals,  

[00:03:14] ODELL:

which is kinda crazy.  

[00:03:15] Unknown:

Like, it might work. I don't know. We'll see.  

[00:03:19] ODELL:

And look how far we've come.   So, Will, I mean,   we have a lot to talk about this, Rip.   First things first, I like   to lead off on Nostra   episodes. I have more and more Noster episodes now, so maybe I don't have to keep doing it. But while I have you here,   why Noster? Why so much focus on it? Why should people care?  

[00:03:43] Unknown:

Yeah. I think, you know,   I think ever since 2016,   there's been, like, there's an increase of censorship. There's an increase of,   corporations   and governments who wanna, you know, control your your life, control your data. They wanna spy on you. They want to   you know, they wanna be involved in every part of your life because they they feel like they, you know, they have all this power now, and and they wanna use that against you.   So I I feel like, you know, corporations are kind of captured by the system. They're captured by governments.   And, you know, we need to break free for that, if we want to live in a free society online and have, like, a freedom of speech in cyberspace.  

So Nostra to me, it represents, like, the best opportunity   at executing that vision.   And since it's a protocol and since it's an open protocol like Bitcoin, we can integrate, you know, other freedom of speech technology such as Bitcoin into the protocol,   which opens up this whole wide area of new opportunities   of spreading, you know, Bitcoin further and further, you know, getting it into the hands of, like, regular people who just, like maybe they just wanna post and with their friends online. But and now there's a zap button,   on each post. And now, like, it just gets people more and more,   interacting with Bitcoin as a technology and not the scary investment or, like, the scary technology that they heard about one time. But once it starts getting integrated into the apps via open protocols,   I think, it just becomes this huge, a really important technology for just, like, Trojan and cores Bitcoin into into normies. So that's that's what's the original vision for Domus, at least. Yeah. I mean, I think you you kinda nailed it, and you've been on top of it for a while now in terms of,  

[00:05:17] ODELL:

growing censorship online, and I think a lot of people   are are kind of sleeping on that.   I mean, obviously,   it's it's become more aware,   for many more people than it has been in the past, But, I mean, I think you would agree with me that I see that censorship accelerating and getting worse, not better.   So, basically, as that's happening,   it's up to us to have, like, the tools and the education and whatnot ready for people as they realize. Like, I feel like almost,   like, I   mean, it's almost a meme. Right? Like, Bitcoin doesn't need marketing. Like, the the government and PayPal and stuff do the marketing for Bitcoin. Yeah. And it kinda feels the same way with Nasr. It's like, you know, as long as we build good tools,  

[00:06:03] Unknown:

the powers that be will will kind of be pushing people in our direction. We just have to be ready for them. Would you agree? Yeah. And it and it feels very much like, you know, Bitcoin, early Bitcoin, or even, like, mid stage Bitcoin. I don't even know where we are in the in the grand scheme of Bitcoin, but,   you know, people realize that, okay. It's cool. It's a cool toy,   You know?   But only when your money is under attack, you know, by extreme, you know, inflation and things like that, when people are starting to start to realize the value of the technology that's been sitting there. So a lot of Bitcoiners have been building up, make making tools better, making the wallets better,   just just to prepare for when that moment, you you know, when shit hits the fan. Right. So I feel like we're kind of like that right now in the nostril space where we're just building these tools. You know, maybe people don't really see the value yet, but, you know, I think they're starting to see it. We know we're starting to see with, like, TikTok getting banned in the US potentially,   and and the censorship in Brazil and, like, an uptick in censorship, I I heard, I think, Rumble was getting an uptick in,   censorship requests. So it's increasing every day, and I think it's going to increase over time once more and more, societal unrest increases via via just these issues with inflation in the financial system. Like, I I feel like, people in power, they're gonna start to panic, and they're gonna feel like they need to rely on censorship to just to calm people down before they, you know, take their pitchforks out.  

So I I can see it increasing in censorship over time.  

[00:07:24] ODELL:

Nostar, Pitchfork Technology.   A rumble is an interesting thing that you mentioned because that's something that   I just feel like we see so often, which is,   you know, a new centralized platform gets created and it's pitched as, oh, we're not gonna do the censorship, but the big guys do. And then it just it's just a time thing. Like, it's like a time and adoption thing. Like, if if they grow big enough,   and enough time goes on, like, eventually, you start seeing censorship, and then everyone always acts surprised.  

[00:07:56] Unknown:

They're like, how the fuck did that happen? Because at the end of the day, they they have to play by the rules and the laws of the country that they're in. It's not like you can escape that. And, and a lot of governments, they kinda work together to, you know, take down we just saw with Pirate Bay. Right? Like, the entire world went against them. And only one I know It's still up? Yeah. Yeah. So they basically have to, like, create mirrors across the world and fight against find fight against it every day, but they, like, raided their apartments. They, like you know, it was it was very intense.   So it just shows that if if you have this one centralized   system,   like a server that you can take down 1 server, like, this is the issue. You need to create mirrors like like like Pirate Bay did.  

So Nostra kinda is innately set up to be mirrored everywhere, which is really nice. So you've mentioned and I've mentioned Bitcoin multiple times.  

[00:08:43] ODELL:

You know, I had,   Stuart   and Hazard on,   last week,   which really great conversation.   Those guys are fucking legends. And one of the topics was, like, this idea of, like, Bitcoin developers and, like,   Nostr being, like, almost like a child project to Bitcoin, kinda getting, like, birthed from Bitcoin.   You were a Bitcoin developer first, like, a a pretty prolific Bitcoin developer, and then you came to Noster.   How do you think about that relationship?  

[00:09:15] Unknown:

It's interesting. I've you know, a lot of the cryptography within Nasr is you know, basically just comes from Bitcoin. You know, the guy who made Nasr is was a Bitcoiner. He's working on, like, side chain stuff,   and and, like, lnurl.   So, you know, that's how I got into it. Just there's just through association. I don't know if it was just a stroke of luck and just happened to be a lot of Bitcoiners in the space at the time. Like, this could've came this could've come up, you know, outside of Bitcoin. It's just it's not, like, attached to Bitcoin in any way.   It just happens to have a lot of, like, momentum from that from that space. And it makes sense. There's people who really care about, you know, freedom of speech and and censorship resistance. Like,   out of any group of people, I think Bitcoiners care about censorship resistant the most and and understand the importance of it. So you're so you're starting to see, like, other protocols in the social space that don't really care about censorship resistance as much, such as, like, ActivityPub.  

And if you go on to ActivityPub and, like, Mastodon,   you know, it's it's, like, more censored than Twitter.   You have, like, these, like, factions that are all sent like, muting each other and blocking each other, and it's you know, that you can clearly didn't it's very clear they didn't optimize for, censorship resistance.   So it's just nice that there we have a community who cares about that and wants to bake that into these new technologies.  

[00:10:22] ODELL:

There's a feature, not a bug. I mean, another example is   Farcaster,   birthed by shitcoiners.  

[00:10:30] Unknown:

Yeah. And you can see what they they they what they optimize for. Right? They, like, they they have their NFTs and, you know, their shit coins or you can promote on the and then maybe that's fine. Like, maybe they could have that, and maybe they can grow that and find people who are interested in that stuff. But, obviously, as a Bitcoiner, it's just it's extremely off putting, and I I wouldn't even touch it. But I sometimes I worry that, like, there's a lot of normies out there. Like, they see Nostra projects, and they feel the same thing about the Bitcoin aspect of our app.   So, you know, I think there I'm glad that there are other apps like Nas Social who are doing non Bitcoin stuff because we definitely wanna just grow the network as a whole. We don't want it to only focus on Bitcoiners.  



[00:11:06] ODELL:

But it is nice that we have a lot of, 2 apps for Bitcoiners because But the Bitcoin the Bitcoiners are like the seed. We're like the we're the we're the beginning.   I think that's a feature, not a bug. Like, I think,   it's just a time thing. Right? I mean, obviously, other communities and non Bitcoiners will come in. But, I mean, if we do not start right, like, they might turn into Bitcoiners,   just because of Zaps. I mean so let's talk about Zaps a little bit. You   you created the original Zaps spec.   You quote, unquote,   invented Zaps.  

Like, how do you look back on that moment? Like, how is   what are your thoughts on Zaps?  

[00:11:50] Unknown:

I mean yeah. I mean, it's a hard problem. Like, I I thought about how to do it for, like, a year before I I did the spec. I didn't think it was actually possible.   And it and it is it's still not perfect. Right? Like, you can fake zaps.  

[00:12:02] ODELL:

Yeah. Not they're not verifiable. They're not verifiable.  

[00:12:05] Unknown:

Most people don't realize that. Yeah. So, like, for what I do is my my lightning node at home, my lightning node can verify it. So for noncustodial   zapping, it's fine because I I know that every zap I see is is has been verified from my node. But it gets a little bit complicated on when you're using things like l b and custodial zappers because you're kinda trusting.   But other so, basically, the way that it works is that your client just says, I only I only trust zaps from this,   this specific pub key. So, you know, I I put that pub key on my lightning address, right, which is, like, only so, basically, other clients can look at that pub key and say, okay. I'm gonna verify all zaps from that pub key. So, there's some very strong guarantees that no other people can fake zap put fake zaps on my notes.   But, you know, people who are wanna fake zaps can do it on their own notes, which is which is why I've never really implemented zap views on my in in Domus. Because without web of trust, it can be easily abused, and people can game them.  

So, yeah, it's not perfect, but, you know, it's But I don't understand.  

[00:13:02] ODELL:

Aren't   so so can't   can't the broadcast  

[00:13:08] Unknown:

the can't someone else broadcast a Zap event like the sender broadcast a Zap event? Yeah. So anyone can let everyone anyone can send a Zap, like a fake Zap to my to my, note Yeah. But it won't display in Domus because   what Domus does, it it'll look at the, my ln URL endpoint. It'll get the pub key that that it is. It's expecting only zaps from this pub key, that either that I set.   So that's why no one can send fig zaps to them, at least to my post.   So that's it's just like it is somewhat trusted. Like, you're you're you're relying on trusted Lightning nodes to verify,   Zaps.  

It's it's a little bit trick. It's kind of confusing, but it is it adds some guarantee. So you cannot use at least use it to you you can at least use it to, you know, filter spam and things like that if we ever decide to do that. But  

[00:13:57] ODELL:

okay, so, I mean, it's but let's just continue further here because I'm trying to understand,   because, like, the the dream the dream is is is is that they are verifiable or that I can, you know, verify them myself   or my client can   so that, you know, you can do interesting   like you said, spam mitigation is is interesting.   Insight into, like, oh, like, you know, some kind of trending analysis or something. You know? Like, what do people find value in? Like, what is the content that they they enjoy the most? Like, maybe that's higher signal, you know, kind of a value for value system. Okay. So let's say so I'm I'm a Domus user.   I receive I receive zaps to my own node. That's what I do. Yeah.  

Like, the Domus client isn't   verifying that they're not hitting my node to see if those are real zaps or not. Right?  

[00:14:56] Unknown:

So all all the Domus client does is it looks at your   Lightning address. Okay. It pulls down some information from your Lightning address, which is Pub key. The pub key that you're that that is we call it the Zapper pub key. It's it's the it's the zapper is the thing that sends zaps, and it's usually, like, your lightning node, for instance.   So it's like I'm only going to   show a zap on your   post if it's from your zapper, from your lightning node. So in some sense,   it's,  

[00:15:23] ODELL:

no one can fake zaps to your post because, you know, Domus is only looking for zaps from your node. So So you're looking for like, the receiver sending an event. Like, as a receiver, I'm sending an event. I received this app, and I'm sending a noster event out. Your lightning node sends Is sending. When it confirms that it received a payment. So that's how we kinda do it. But not all clients do it that way. Right? Some do it based off a broadcaster event. But the broadcaster can also broadcast the event. Right? What is a broadcast? I don't know. I mean, the person sending the Zap can broadcast the Zap event. Right?  

[00:15:55] Unknown:

Yeah. You could, in theory, do that, and then,   I I mean, Domus doesn't do that. It's you it relies on Lightning nodes to do that.  

[00:16:04] ODELL:

Also, part of the reason I'm, like, trying to dive deep here is because it really,   it can be frustrating for people,   myself included, if you, like,   you send a Zap,   and it doesn't show up.   You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you send you you you send someone 10,000 sats. You, like, really appreciate their content,   and then it just doesn't display.  

[00:16:28] Unknown:

That might is that's because the receiver's note is fail is failing to broadcast the event. Right? There could yeah. There could be lots of different reasons. Like, it's not you know, maybe the the zapper is not sending it to the right relays. So something you put inside the zap is like, okay. I if I send you money, I want you to send this app to these relays that I specify so I I can at least see it that when you send it back. Yeah. So there's all these, like, subtle,   things that and if if anything doesn't work properly, then it might not show up. Usually, it works most of the time.   And but this is the complexities of this, like, building this in a decentralized way.  

But it works most of the time. I I don't usually have too many issues. It's very, very rare that I run into a Zap or that doesn't work.  

[00:17:06] ODELL:

You know, it might be,   I feel like it happens usually when you send large zaps, but it's probably just because those are the ones you remember not showing up. You know? You're, like, you you're not, like, paying attention to see if, like, 42 zaps showed up or not.  

[00:17:21] Unknown:

Yeah. But, like and and there's nothing really special about you know, the zapspec could be generalized, and it's something we've been thinking about a lot as well, which is, you know, there's, like, you know, people are doing e cache a lot more now, and maybe, like, in the future, we'll have Arc.   So we're probably gonna generalize those app specs so that you can kind of   show that you sent zaps from any l two.  

[00:17:40] ODELL:

So there's lots of cool stuff coming, I think. Yeah. That was my next question because, like, I eCash seems like it could be promising,   particularly because you can   lock it to the pub key.   It's almost like   a a a Nostra more of a Nostra native kind of payment protocol.  

[00:17:59] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I've I've been thinking about it a lot recently just from an idea that the Mutiny Wallet guys, had Yeah. Which got me really thinking,   which is, like, if you really wanna do a non custodial lightning wallet, which is incredibly hard to do. And, like, the new guys are doing it, like, probably the best out of anyone to try to make that work.   At the end of the day, you still need to,   be online to receive if it's just noncustodial.   Right. So, you know, maybe Fedimint   makes non custodial just a better UX. Because what if your when your phone's offline,   maybe your your you receive zaps to the Mint. And then when your phone comes online, you can sweep funds from the Mint into your non custodial Lightning node. It's like a hybrid custodial mode. Yeah. So it's it's interesting because it's actually making non custodial better UX. Like, it may it's making lightning custodial   or lightning noncustodial better UX. So, you know, these two technologies are complementing each other. It is very complicated, obviously. But, you know, if if Domus were to do a, a wallet, which I do wanna do in the app, it would probably and I I Domus always represents, you know, what's the right way to do it? Like, right in terms of, like,   maximum pain for myself in the sense of, like, property centralization.  

And I've I've always wanted Domus to represent that idea of just let's do things the hard but right way. And I'm gonna I will spend the year working on the technology like Nostra DB to make it work.   And I don't it might take a bit longer, but it's it's worth it. Right? We're trying to build better systems   instead of Yeah.  

[00:19:21] ODELL:

The dream is like mutiny built into a client. Exactly. I mean, mutiny is also kind of a client, but just not it's not as it's more of a payments client. But  

[00:19:30] Unknown:

Yeah. And you yeah. And it does support NWC, so you can connect to it from, Domus. But it's and the Mutiny NWC is very weird because   mutiny needs to be online.   It needs to be the app needs to be open when you're when you're zapping with NWC. So you have to, like, zap with NWC, switch to the app, and then have it go through on mutiny, go back. So it's it's a weird interaction. So I'm obviously, we wanna improve the UX on that. Well, the Fedimint side might fix that. Exactly. I don't know. Yeah. If it's sending from the sediment,  

[00:19:59] ODELL:

maybe   maybe it fixes that. Actually but it still needs a sign, I think. So I don't think it does.  

[00:20:07] Unknown:

Yeah. And then and this opens up a whole new area of, like, what does it mean if, let's say,   multiple Domus wallets are offline and, you know you know, and now you wanna send money between 2 users on the Domus Mint. So now you're actually doing an eCash transfer on the Mint.   But how do you represent that as a zap? Like, you can't like, right now, Zaps are kind of hard coded to to to Lightning.   But I I I've been thinking recently that we should just drop the the Lightning invoice out of the Zap and just make it more general. So you can just it could just be like an e cash Zap or a a Lightning Zap.  

[00:20:39] ODELL:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean and, obviously, Fediment is custodial, but at least it's a multisync custodian, and at least it's,   at least you have privacy from the custodian, which are 2 2 major benefits of Fetterman, which is why I'm very excited about it. And I do like I like their idea.   We just had I just had them on as well.   I like the idea of the hybrid model where, like Yeah. Okay. Once you hit a certain amount, then it, like, opens your own sovereign lightning channel.   Because, like, what that that is a a   a perfect example of the pain point we see on Nostra. Right? Which is, like, a new Nostra user comes in,   and they receive, you know, a 1,000 sats or something, like, there's no way for them it's dust. At that point, it's dust, and there's no way for them to take custody of that, period.  

It's less than a transaction fee on chain.  

[00:21:30] Unknown:

Yeah. And, like and I think people criticize me rightly, right, at the very of Nostra when I just was just trying to get more and more people on and get more people experience experiencing zaps. So I just I just pushed everyone to Vaulted Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the and then I'm like, yeah. It's it works for now. They have Zap integration,   but then we saw the the issue with that when they, you you know, they rugged the US market and they they left.  

[00:21:50] ODELL:

I mean, to be fair, they   didn't take any money. That's true. Yeah. They just won't let you receive. You can you you can still send out. Run run is a harsh word. It's a bit strong, but I mean, I've I I feel bad because I was, like, sounding the alarm on the wall of the Satoshi,   and   and,   yeah, I just I feel bad about that,   because I ended up talking to him, and he's an awesome dude, and he definitely means well. He kinda just was a victim of his own success. Like, you know, he that's a problem with the custodian. It's very hard to unwind a custodian.   And so, like, as more and more people use it, it's like, what do I do now?  

And,   yeah, I I think just pulling out of the US market, at least temp you know, as a as a short term   escape valve or release valve,   was the best of a lot of bad   options.  

[00:22:50] Unknown:

Yeah. And just and and so, like, I guess the only alternative was, like, LB was building an integration. So, okay, I was like, okay. I guess I'll push people to LB now, and then LB is like, I think they're also feeling   the the pressure of success because now they had to do, like, a, like,   a a invite code to get in. And I'm like, oh, man. This is not a, like, this is not a solution that I can keep pushing people to. Because we're running out of decentralized   custodians to push people to. So I'm like, okay. Maybe it's time to actually sit down and try to solve this problem for real,   in a non custodial way, which is why I've also been really interested   in I've been playing with Arc recently.  



[00:23:22] ODELL:

I'm pretty sure I have That requires a soft fork. Right?  

[00:23:25] Unknown:

So I think there's missed some confusion about that because   you need if you if you want non interactivity, which is really good, like, it's really good, then you need a soft fork. But it works today on Bitcoin with a multisig and and a server,   from what I understand. Because I was running some code recently. It's like this guy, Steven what's name? Steven Roost? Steven Rose? I think he worked on Liquid at Blockstream. I think he has one of the few implementations that works with Bitcoin Core. It's like a Rust project, and he, like, I knew him from the Lightning community. So he, like, invited me to his project.   So I've been playing with, like, one of the few Rust implementations of Arc. So I think I think only Ben I see I saw Ben Carmen on the on the on the repo. I don't know. I guess he's the only other person, me and him. But I was playing with it. I'm like, this is just so simple because you just create a taproot address,   and you can start receiving offline, like, right away just to from an on chain address. We're like, this is somewhat magic. I don't really fully understand how it works yet, but, you know, I'm still exploring that as a potential if it works. We'll see. Yeah. Well, when you figure out how it works, it'd be great if you could let us know.  



[00:24:23] ODELL:

In the meantime,   back, I mean, back to custodianship,   yeah, it just feels like I mean, it's such a heavy liability   thing to do,   and to try and do it in a way that doesn't end up in jail requires so much different compliance headaches.   Yeah. That,   it's almost like every custodian just eventually goes down, like, a hell hole becomes a hell hole.   I mean, like, even, like, best intentions Alby, I think,   limits the amount you can receive on this app,   which I found out because,   Marty Maumee was using it. And when   he he released the Satoshi emails that he had from Satoshi, I tried to zap him more than Albie would let him, so he just didn't get the money.  

So it provides it like, there's all these different hurdles. And one of the things I think is really cool about what Munnini is doing   is using Gnostr to build   to to give the user an option of who their custodian is So it Yeah. Unbundles   the app developer   from the custodianship in the first place. Like, when you launch it and you wanna choose a Fediment, it brings you to essentially,   like a Noster web of trust kind of rating system, like a censorship resistant trust pilot, and then you choose your custodian.   And then hopefully there's more competition there, there's more distribution   between different pediments,   and   the key thing being that it   means that they're not the ones holding the funds. Exactly.  



[00:26:00] Unknown:

Yeah. And and this leads to this whole idea of, like, free banking, you know, in cyberspace with, like, and maybe Nostra as a way to find these communities, these sort of feminine communities.   Because it is a very social thing. Right? Like, finding,   like, what group of people you wanna associate with.   So maybe Nostra can help, you know, propel FEDIMENT and and FEDI into more usage.   And, you know, it wouldn't wouldn't be that surprising. Like, Nostra has already done that for lightning, and,   you know, maybe it can help with, FEDIAdmin as well.  

[00:26:30] ODELL:

To the freaks. Yeah. I was a little bit confused. I thought,   we had spam in the chat, but but it was just average Gary posting the entire Cypherpunk manifesto,   in the comments.   As always, freaks, if you're listening,   on one of our other streams,   if you're on YouTube   or   Twitter until the Twitter account gets banned,   The live chat that you see on the screen is at citildispatch.com/stream.   That is powered by ZapStream,   a noster first   Bitcoin integrated,   live streaming   app, which is fucking dope.   So zaps. Let's keep let's keep on the zap tangent.   You added zaps. We all got really excited.  

We sent a lot of money between each other,   and then Apple came and and threw your lunch on the ground. Yep.   What's what's next for Domus and Zaps? I mean, up now at this point, I guess, like,   if you I haven't, like, reinstalled the app in a while, but when you install the app for the first time, I think there's, like, no zaps. No zaps. Like You if you, like, run the script, there's, like, a link. You click the link. You run the script,   then they just all appear.   What are your thoughts? Like, what what's the path forward?  

[00:27:53] Unknown:

Like, that script is, like,   That script is against their terms of service. If, like, if someone reported me, like, they Thomas would probably get taken down. Like, it's not a long term solution. Right? What script?   Exactly.   So I know it's it's, and it's really confusing for people. They're, like, oh, I I thought you could zap notes and stuff. It's, like, well, Apple Apple if it build onto the story, I mean, it's been told a lot of times, but they basically said that,   that having a zap button on a post   is considered,   potentially selling digital content. You're opening the window for selling digital content, and that's enough for them to,   say that it's not allowed. But,   but they still wanna support all these Venmo, like, apps, like,   Cash App and Venmo.  

So you are still allowed to do direct peer to peer, transfer. So you can zap profiles on Domus. I think that's, like, a very   misunderstood thing that you can, yeah, you can still zap profiles.  

[00:28:47] ODELL:

By default without running the script.  

[00:28:49] Unknown:

Yeah. But as far as I understand, it's like, you know and this is with everything at Apple. They apply their rules, like, not very consistently.   Like, as we all know, primal has   has zaps on notes.   So, technically, if they're following their guidelines, like, they shouldn't be allowed. But I guess they basically just paid the the ransom and, you know Well I don't understand how So there there's, like, a little bit of a conspiracy  

[00:29:13] ODELL:

about Primal's   wallet,   integration,   that   1031, which I'm a managing partner of, is an investor in Primal and an investor in Strike.   And Milan added a strike powered wallet directly into,   the app.   Me, personally,   I think   the holy grail is mutiny   in one of these clients. Like, I like,   yeah. Basically, the high level view is mutiny in the fucking client.   A Fediment choose your Fediment, you know, e cash, choose whatever custodian you want. No KYC whatsoever.   Milan   thinks differently.   You know, the guy's the guy's a machine in the best way possible.   He just constantly ships. He's, like, super focused.  

But his holes this the whole reason he has strike there or one of the main reasons he has strike there,   in my opinion, is because it allows you to buy in the app,   and you can buy $5 worth of Bitcoin when you start. And at that point, if you buy,   he gives Apple their vig. Yeah. Yeah. And so   he believes and once again, I agree with you that, like, also Apple, you know Who knows? Like, maybe Prama gets so big at some point that Apple decides that it's not enough for them. Mhmm. But he believes that's a key aspect for why   Absolutely.  

He's able to   have it built in and not not get banned from iOS. It's not a breaking of the terms and services because they get their in app purchases.  

[00:30:49] Unknown:

They get their little cut, whatever, if you buy an app. And my my theory on it was always like, okay. Maybe they just treat SaaS as, like, an in game currency at that point. So if you, like, pay for the in game currency and you're in that wallet that's not,  

[00:31:01] ODELL:

where you can't add funds externally, I guess you still can do that. So it's You can still add funds externally, and then they don't get a cut if you add, like or if you receive zaps, they don't get a cut. It's only if you buy.  

[00:31:12] Unknown:

Yeah. So at the end of the day, it's like, you you we're always gonna be had to jump through Apple's hoops. And, obviously, the Apple market's important, so we able we do the hoop jumping.   But, you know, me, I felt very uncomfortable as as a whole being, like, building   like, in some sense, you know, this project that I I I really truly care about. You know? And and they effectively have censored me. I the the version on the App Store is not   what my vision for Noshita Will's vision. Yeah. My my my vision for what I wanna do, like, what I was trying to do. So at some point, I'm like, you know, I got really pissed off. I I actually built   a virtual machine interpreter and then put it inside the app just so I can get around it,   which is against the rules. That's how much I fucking hate them. And, because how the script works? It's actually a WASM interpreter.  

So WASM is like, a web technology that it's like web assembly.   And I built a a a c I built it a while back, but I built a a an interpreter for this WASM from scratch and see. And I I just put it in domas, and now it executes these things called nostril scripts.   And all it does is just set a Boolean flag in config, which, again, super against the rules. Yeah. But I eventually wanna use Nostril script for for more things, like custom feeds and But the main reason was  

[00:32:16] ODELL:

to feeds and and But the main reason was to enable to that that Zap enabling script. Yeah. So and, and then I didn't write the script. I mean,   I  

[00:32:23] Unknown:

I mean,   I that's what the script. What script?   You can find it if you wanna look for it. But,   yeah. I'm probably gonna just get banned eventually. And so I need a I need an alternative about that. So I started building a,   a multi platform client in Rust, and I'm calling it I'm probably just gonna call it domus, because I I I see it as everything I've learned from building domus iOS, and I wanna build, like, the proper version of domus.   And, yeah, we can talk into we can talk more about, like, what that is. Yeah. Let's talk about that. I mean, I I think besides  

[00:32:56] ODELL:

you should, first of all, definitely call it damus.   I I think besides   the the fact that you don't want to just be completely beholden to Tim Apple,   I I think there's something to be said when you're recommending   something to   new users   that regardless of what their platform is,   there's a version of it. And even I think even when they're it's a shittier version,   you know, it's like, okay, the Android people are or have a better version or the web, the the desktop people have a better version. As long as there's still something there for whatever for if you use iOS or whatever, that it makes it much easier instead of saying, like,  

[00:33:38] Unknown:

you know, install domus if you're on Exactly. IOS. Install amethyst. If you're on Android, just say, how do you spell that? Okay. Do that. Oh, you're on desktop. Install Gossip. It's like, no. Just domus. And you just say it, and then they can It it makes a new platform. It makes marketing domus really hard because I'm like, just go download our app. And they're like, okay. Where is it on the app Google Play Store? I'm like, I guess Yeah. They get Primal. Like and the Primal is really good, and it's it's probably good that people are trying different apps. But it would be nice if I could say, like, oh, go download Domus for Android or desktop. You just say you just say download Domus. Right? And then the user, whatever  

[00:34:13] ODELL:

whatever platform they're on, what they can just   they can just download the the the relevant version. But, anyway, let's talk about this. So, like, you've been teasing   multiplatform   for a while. I mean, I there's something called, like, note deck that looks badass. Like, let's talk about this. What's what's the plan? Where are we at? What are you thinking?  

[00:34:32] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   a lot of it a lot of the technology I built you know, I I've been working on this new technology called Nostra DB,   and it is was inspired by a relay called stir fry. So stir fry is basically the reason why Nostra works today. Is stir fry unmaintained?   It is unmaintained.   Is that an issue? I think the guy who is working on it is, like, now working on, like, some Ethereum project. So it's like,   that sucks.  

[00:34:55] ODELL:

So I'm solve that.  

[00:34:57] Unknown:

But it's, like, it works, and it's really fast. It just doesn't have things that are really important, like, off.   But you can search.   And search and things like that. And I don't know if they'll ever add that.   So,   you know, it it's it is kinda shitty, but the design of it's really amazing. And I wanted to basically put a a stir fry relay inside of Domus because it was so fast.   So I decided to build something that was similar to SQLite. So SQLite is this,   very amazing library that allows you to embed a a SQL Server into any application.   And a lot of people were using SQLite for for not sure stuff, but, you know, SQL doesn't really scale very well for Nostra queries because Nostra queries are very dynamic.  

Lots of people can do different and so if in a in a in a SQL world, what you have to do is, you know, take that query, that nostril filter, convert it to a SQL representation,   and then then the SQL's engine has to parse it and find a query plan.   And it's actually quite slow.   Whereas in the stir fry model, you just you could get a filter, and then you just look on a just basically do a really quick memory lookup.   So that's anyway, so I designed Azure DB to be like SQLite   the stir fry version of SQLite.   Okay.  

And, right now, it's in Domus today. So, actually, all the notes coming into Domus that actually gets actually verifies the signatures and all these things. I I don't use the database for everything yet. I use it for, the profile searches. So if you ever do if you're ever tagging someone within Domus, you'll notice this it has the best tagging in any Nostra client just because of Nostra DB.   And you just tell it fast. It is so fast.   Anyway, so, you know, I spent probably, like, 8 months building Noster DB. It was really I've never built a database from scratch before, but it was super fun.   And and there's another really important reason why I I built this, because I actually do wanna implement the outbox model. So there's if you're if you're if you're following any   stuff within Noster, you you know, this is controversy with it. This is We had a chat about that on dispatch too. Exactly.  

And it's it is it is a better way to it's a more decentralized way to build a public square on on Austria.  

[00:36:51] ODELL:

And the basic It takes it takes it removes reliance on big relays. Right? Because, basically, when you send an event, you say, you know, check these relays,  

[00:37:01] Unknown:

for me going forward. Exactly. Like that. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the early days what we did I mean, I just did the dumbest possible thing, which is, like, okay. I put a few handful of Bootstrap relays. Right. And then we open up Domus. It just only ever talks to those those relays.   It sends and receives. It it reads from all of them, and it sends to all of them. So it's really simple. It's a simple model, but it doesn't really scale to if we wanna make Nostra, like, a global thing.   So so, yeah, so moving to something more decentralized is really important. And so the outbox model   is, basically a little bit different where you you specify on a on your relay list the the relays you wanna, read from and the relays that you read to. And then whenever you're on your client, whenever you're constructing your timeline or whenever you're pulling notes from some person's profile, you actually have to look at the relay list, see which relays they're using,   and then and and a pull from the appropriate relay. So instead of just say, I'm only gonna pull from these 5 relays, which, you know, most people are might not even be on, you now you look on a you look on the relay list to get things more intelligently from different relays.  

So the only reason why I've never implemented this because for the longest time, I you know, Domus was really dumb. Like, I was having really hard on on mobile, the there was really huge performance issues. So I was actually selectively   only verifying signatures for certain notes, like, really important ones, like profiles.   So I realized that if we if I switch to this outbox model,   I need to have a much faster,   wait. Like, I wanna actually verify all the notes.   So, anyway, so NotSure DB allows me to verify all the notes. And another really important thing is, one of the big concerns that I had   was if I'm fetching from random relays all the time in the outbox model,   they could be sending me,   things that don't match my filter. They could be trying to, like, you know, screw with me, with based off the notes they send. So I wanna make I wanna make sure that it was really robust. So when you're doing a local query or when you're doing a query, it's just you're getting the results you expect.  

So not sure DB just allows me to,   combine those two effects, which is verify all the notes plus not rely on the results from other relays because what and Asha DB is actually not just a debate at database. It's actually a relay. So you can actually query it like a like a relay. So in in the so, anyway so all of this is leading up to the design for, like, my my vision for a really good Narsha company that that that properly input, implements the outbox model   is,   this idea of, you know, you're building an app, and you own the app only ever talks to the local relay.   Okay. And then,   you know you know, so and then the network code can be, like, doing the outbox model. It can be doing other models, and it's just dumping data into the into Nostra DB.  

So this just kinda separates, like, nastiness that could happen on the relay side and,   and and then and then your UI code is much simpler because you're only ever talking to a local relay. Anyway, this is very technical, but it's, like, my vision for building a proper national client. I don't think anyone else is kinda doing this. Okay.   But, and I and I just wanted to make it as fast as possible. So it's all lots of new tech involved. So, Anyway so that's that was the the start of the the multiplatform client.  

[00:39:57] ODELL:

Okay. That's a lot. Sorry. No. This is good. This is good. Outbox model, I I mean, I think is just   a massive improvement. That makes sense to me. You just need to be able to do it in a performant way.   I mean, because the the concern is is we haven't really seen real censorship yet. I mean, we don't have that many users yet of Nostr.   And if you have couple big relays and they just, you know, knock out a pub key and say, you know, we don't like caps. We're not gonna we're not gonna broadcast Odell's notes, then a lot of people just will never see them,   even if they're on some other relay or whatever. So Yeah. It's good for us to do that, and it takes liability away from the big relay operators. And Like, I don't really wanna I I run a relay just for, like, you know, base base level reliability. So my users, like, if everything else is shit, then it'll still You wanna, like, control your infrastructure to a degree?  



[00:40:50] Unknown:

Yeah. But, like Control your destiny. You don't need to use the Domus relay. Like, you can just remove it and use any relay you want. And I and I want doms to keep working regardless of what relays you choose. But maybe in the future, you you know, choosing relays will be a very niche thing for niche. Most people won't manually choose relays.   No. Right? But at the outbox model, you don't really need to. In some sense, you just need to know a place where you can get all the relay lists. Maybe that's purple pages. Maybe that's, you know, some shelling point in the nosh Nosh ecosystem. That's really the only thing that's important, in the outbox model.  

[00:41:20] ODELL:

Oh, by the way, while we're on that topic of big relays,   I just wanted to thank you for your grand social experiment of waking up one morning and just nuking the Domus relay.   I don't think any notes were lost.  

[00:41:34] Unknown:

A lot of profiles I I realized that profiles don't get actually broadcasted   as often as as notes and, like, duplicated. So a lot of people just lost their profile, and they had to, like, reupload it. They had to edit their profile again. That was the main main Well, like, the bio and stuff and, like, where their image was hosted? Yeah. It's yeah. The description of, like, their username and and the profile, the banner that they have. So a lot of those got newts, and they just had to, like, update their profile again. So that was be fucked up if you will.   Well, just like everyone's like, oh, it's like, you know, Domus relays centralizing to Nasr. It's like nuked it, and people didn't even realize.  



[00:42:07] ODELL:

Yeah.   I mean,   the memes are great. I a lot of I mean, at least they realized after they realized it happened. But, yeah, I don't  

[00:42:17] Unknown:

but then that that's always, like, the thing is, like, maybe some notes were lost, and I just they weren't notable. So So I had one person who was building an ASR client, and they only were using the Domus relay, and they're like, you just killed my project. I'm like, well,   lesson learned.   Don't rely on one relay.  

[00:42:33] ODELL:

Are you gonna do the nukening regularly? Or  

[00:42:37] Unknown:

I think the just the way that stir fry is designed, there's no easy way to migrate to new versions. You basically I basically had to do it just to migrate to a new version. So, like, anytime I wanna update update stir fry, then I'll have to nuke it. But maybe if it's abandoned now, then I don't need to upgrade it anymore. Is that just because it's so large? I mean, I upgraded to Stir fry Relay, and I just migrated the database. Yeah. I mean, some of the updates require, a database update, and and you and there's no migration step in stir fry from what I've seen. Well, it sounds like we either need  

[00:43:08] ODELL:

we need, someone to pick up maintenance of stir fry, or   we need a a new dominant relay because I have a lot of the network is using stir fry, and it's,  

[00:43:20] Unknown:

it's the only thing that's maintained right now. It's the only thing that's, like, fast enough to handle. But maybe, like, once more clients switch to   Outbox and the the load can be distributed across more relays, maybe that'll help. I'm not really I'm not sure. I think it's still important that we have Surfride.   But, yeah, someone should definitely  

[00:43:36] ODELL:

help out. I'm I'm I've been considering just hacking on it. At least I I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. So you I mean, I get so you didn't really answer the quest question. We we you don't know when the next nukening will be, but it will happen, expect that. When I run out of disk space.   Okay.   Noted.   That was a question from,   weirdo robot in the chat, so I felt compelled to ask.   I,   okay. So let's go back to multiplatform.   So you did a bunch of,   like, prep work essentially to to build the base of of of this new chapter of DAMAS.   What does this look like in practice? A a desktop client, an Android client, and   an iOS client. Right? Yeah. So  

[00:44:22] Unknown:

I was, like, considering,   starting, like, let's say, a regular   Android,   you know,   Jetpack Compose or whatever they're using these days. I was considering sorry. Then I then I realized it's, like, I don't wanna rebuild   like, I don't wanna maintain multiple clients in multiple different like, I also want a desktop client. Right? So I came to this conclusion that maybe I should just try to build one client   that works   everywhere.   And Okay. Luckily, the techno and the technology is almost there to do that. There's things like Flutter.   I personally was really I looked at this thing called, eGUI, and this is the same UI framework that the Gossip client has is using.  

Okay. So Mike Dilger is also using this. I love gossip.  

[00:45:01] ODELL:

Yeah. So it's I love me a good desktop client.  

[00:45:05] Unknown:

Yeah. And I just I didn't have a good desktop client. Again, I don't like using web clients because I hate the web, and I'm I'm sure, like, a lot of people might know that from that from things I've said. I think, if you had Jeff told me before I got on this podcast to tell everyone how bad the web is, and I want you to be working on,   more native clients.   And there's a there's a really there's a really good reason for that because a lot of people don't realize that I mean, I'm sure maybe people realize it, but,   the web the web browsers were built for the web. The the web is a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's its own protocol, like,   HTTP,   and and they have and they have this really messed up way for building interfaces. It's, you know, it's built on this thing called the the DOM, the document object model.  

And it was originally it just came from the fact that, you know, the web was meant for sharing documents early on. And then and and hack upon hack upon hack, we started building ways to, like, style these documents with CSS.   And then, you know,   20 years later, and, like, the JavaScript is, like, oh, now I can use JavaScript to, like, change text in this document.   And then all of a sudden, now we're building, like, applications   on top of, like, this DOM document model. And people just, like, think that this is the right way to do things from now on. But, you know, this is this is a   that's a way for building apps for the web. Like, nostrils is its own protocol. It's not the web protocol. It's its own protocol. So we can actually build native apps again just because people forgotten how to build native apps. So I'm I'm excited for people who wanna get involved in, like, building native apps, like, Gnosh or native apps.  

You know, come come help come help me, come come help other people. I think, you know, the Gossip Project is amazing. Go help Mike, because we need more native,   and because native is so much faster. Like, if you if you try Notek, it's like you realize, like, wow. This is how fast programs can be.  

[00:46:43] ODELL:

Do you seek you seek Kieran in in,   the live chat of his web of his web client saying he's person he feels personally attacked?  

[00:46:51] Unknown:

I mean, he is, like, he is the king of building really good, downstream web apps. Kieran, when native ZapStream?  

[00:47:01] ODELL:

Snort Snort, I guess, is, like, the one of the biggest web clients too.  

[00:47:06] Unknown:

But, yeah. So just, you know So wait. You said if I try NoteDex, or can we try NoteDeck? I mean, you can. You can build it from source? You can build it from source. Like, obviously, I don't have, like it's it's the very alpha. I use it for monitoring multiple feeds. It's very much like TweetDeck if you use TweetDeck.   You'd obviously just it's very it's like read only right now. But there's a public repo?   Yep. It's a damas,   it's github.com/domas/  

[00:47:31] ODELL:

To be fair to use Gossip, you have to build from source anyway too. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. He, like, just refuses to release binaries.   Yes. If you go to the It's a principal thing.  

[00:47:40] Unknown:

If you go to the, the domus github, which is domus dash i0/nodeck,   you can build it for Android. You could build it for desktop. It works on macOS, Linux.   Oh, bad. But read only right now. Yeah. I'm still trying to get it, and it's really cool, because it's using Azure DB. So you can if you pass a filter on the command line,   it'll every every filter you pass on the command line, it'll create a new column from that filter. So it's very flexible right now just for testing because you can it's a quick way to, like   and, anyway, so try it out. And it's really fast, and and,   I I want more people helping. I I have one person, colonel kind.  

He he just showed I think he works on Fediment stuff as well, but he just, like, showed up and started hacking on it. So,   I think he's yeah.  

[00:48:22] ODELL:

So come come help help me hack. So is that is that gonna be the Domus desktop client note deck, or is it for a separate project? It's gonna be the desktop client that I'm mainly supporting.  

[00:48:32] Unknown:

Because I there there is a Domus desktop client, but it's, like,  

[00:48:36] ODELL:

it's not it's only for macOS, and it's not really designed for desktop. What? It's just, like, the M Series Max, like, running an iPhone app.  

[00:48:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Basically. And it it surprisingly works okay. Like, I I still use it, but it's not really designed for desktop.  

[00:48:54] ODELL:

Got it. Okay. So we have NoteDeck.   And then is there an Android app coming? I I think you've been teasing,   like,  

[00:49:02] Unknown:

pictures of you using, like, shitty Android phones or shitty Android tablets. Or Yeah. So Nodec runs on Android. So that's that's the whole point of the multiplatform idea. Oh, okay. This is why I've been I'd think about just calling it domus because it's kinda confusing. Because then when you're on when you're on desktop, it's called no deck. Right? But when you're on when you're on, Yeah. Just call it domus. It's called domus. I don't know.  

[00:49:22] ODELL:

It's Domus desktop.  

[00:49:24] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. Domus desktop. Android, Domus  

[00:49:26] ODELL:

iOS. Boom.  

[00:49:28] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[00:49:29] ODELL:

So No tech is a cool name, though.  

[00:49:33] Unknown:

I just it's just,   I'm I'm really excited for NoteDex as well because I realized that,   you know, as at Domus, I have to do a lot of customer support. There's a lot of and I love Nostra for this, being able to talk to people in in real time and seeing their issues. But, you know, it's getting to the point now we're getting more and more people, and it's getting harder and harder to do that on nostr.   So NoteDex is, in some sense, also becoming my customer support tool. And I was trying to envision ways that maybe I could turn this into a product where maybe businesses could use it for customer support. Obviously, it's, like, there's not many people on us right now. But Right.   There's lots of different ways I can go with NoteTech, that are really exciting.  



[00:50:11] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, Derek came up with a good this is a naming podcast now, but you could just call it Thomas Note Tech. Yeah. Exactly.   Really out of the box thinking   by, Derek in the live chat.   I'm sure you're naming things. I mean, I always anyone who's used tweet deck can see the appeal of the it's it's it's basically the same form factor.  

[00:50:34] Unknown:

Alright? Exactly.   And I I always use TweetDeck. I I never used, like, the regular Twitter interface, so it just It's like plugging into the matrix. You know? It's like yeah. Yeah. I  

[00:50:40] ODELL:

interface, so it just It's like plugging into the matrix. I mean, that's like you you get all your streams. You get a lot of custom customizability.   Okay. So that's read only right now. Do we have a timeline on   I guess, eventually,   it like, I won't have to build it from source. Right? Like, there'll just be, like, an app in the Android app stores or whatever APK.  

[00:51:01] Unknown:

Yep.   Yeah. So it's   it's it's interesting trying to design, you know, a mobile app and a desktop app at the same time, but I think it works pretty well. And,   because I like, this is the vision, though. I I you know, I we are such a small team. I'm I'm, like it's really just me and one one of the person hacking on it. I, you know, I I I hired Daniel to, like, help on the iOS side.   So,   so it's really important for us to be very efficient   with our time. So it makes sense to just build one client that works everywhere.   But, yeah, it's still it's, it's still early compared to other projects.  



[00:51:36] ODELL:

Which Daniel is that? That's not Daniele. Right? D'Thonan?  

[00:51:40] Unknown:

It's, Daniela Dequinauer.   I guess I am probably butchering his last name. But he,  

[00:51:46] ODELL:

he just yeah. It's There's a lot of Daniels in Noster.  

[00:51:49] Unknown:

The Dans.  

[00:51:51] ODELL:

Oh, that too. I forgot. Noster.  

[00:51:54] Unknown:

That was, like, a that was a dark period in Nasr history. Just everyone was Dan. I just feel bad for people who joined that day, and they're like I see Dan. People are retarded. Like, this is the dumbest thing.  

[00:52:04] ODELL:

There are definitely   there are definitely some people that joined and were like, this is the best thing ever   and stayed around for it, and then there's others that will probably come back in, like, 2 years. Like, they they tried it. They're like, too many Dans. Like, this is called this is some type of Dan cult. They'll join us again in 2 years.   Okay. Awesome. I mean, I so I assume, like, on the interface on Android, you don't envision it to look like TweetDeck, though. Right? Like, it'll it it'll be the same core  

[00:52:33] Unknown:

code, but not to the same interface. Right? Yeah. So the the UI system I'm using, it's very flexible. So on mobile, it just it's a it's a it's like a responsive app. So on mobile Okay. It uses one timeline instead of, like, multiple.   And we're just kinda working out, like, the kind of the UI interactions to make it feel more like a mobile app.   But, otherwise, yeah, it's, it's all supported in one code base. So then the idea is, I guess,  

[00:52:57] ODELL:

is   that the desktop   well, let's, like, talk long term vision. Like, the desktop,   app,   the desktop client and the Android app. The Android client will   have Zaps as a first class citizen, maybe even have an integrated wallet, and then you're just gonna   iOS is just gonna be, like, on its own little island.  

[00:53:25] Unknown:

Yeah. So know what Bitcoin is? That is something I have to make a decision about down the line whether it makes sense to keep on maintaining iOS as its own separate project, or maybe I just get this working on iOS and just have one code base for everything.   That's gonna be much further down the line, I think. Because, obviously, the yeah. The iOS app has a very nice native feel, and this is not really native feely.   So maybe it makes more sense on Android and desktop. Why is it not native feely?   Because it's not it's not using, any of the toolkits from Apple. So, you know, in Oh, you mean, like, Apple native feely? Yeah. So Got it. SwiftUI makes things really nice. Like, you have the navigation. You have super pretty. And, like, the the I love, like, the lack of border. Like, the media looks really nice.   Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was actually Jack's idea,   which is kinda cool. He's just like, I think He has some experience. I know how like, I'm like, well, if it's if it's his I I mean, he probably knows what he's talking about. He's done this before. So and then I was initially I was like, no. This is stupid. I don't like it. And then I just it kinda grew in me over time.  

And, so I definitely I definitely wanna build that into all of domicaps as well. And then correct me like I said,  

[00:54:34] ODELL:

I   haven't gone through, like, the install process of Domus   recently.   When you'd install Domus for the first time   and you don't have the script enabled, I don't think it even shows zaps on posts. Right?  

[00:54:50] Unknown:

Like, it doesn't say, like, 4 zaps, or does it? It does show it, but it's it doesn't show it if there's no zaps on the post. But if there are zaps on the post, it'll show the number. You just can't click it. It won't show who's zapped who. It will show who's zapped who. You can actually go in and see who's zapped who. Oh, you still can without running the script?   Yeah. You just can't still exist. The user can see that the zaps exist. Because there shouldn't be any, like you know, I think Apple's main concern was, you know, the fact that you can initiate a payment. Yeah. No. It's important that people can see the Zaps at the very least even if they they can't zap. Yeah. Just information on the party. Yeah. It's just information on the network. It's like, I don't see why they would ban that. But  

[00:55:27] ODELL:

Okay. Let's talk about   we're kinda meandering. Let's talk about Damas purple.   I love   that you reset test flight and that you need to be a supporter,   of Damas,   to get test flight. I got I I got my my my juicy test flight access.   I already had test flight access for, like, the first 10,000 or whatever. But, anyway,   this time, it felt more special.   Domus Purple. What's the vision here? What is Domus Purple,   to the to the freaks that don't know?  

[00:56:03] Unknown:

What are you thinking? So Domus Purple so, actually, I didn't even wanna do subscriptions in Domus. You know, my original idea was,   I wanna build out the Zap, you know, Zap Commerce, I was calling it. So make it make more ways to zap things, and maybe you have ways to have stores where you can,   and then and then you could maybe just turn on an option that says, if you wanna help support Domus, you just take a proportion of your Zap and give it to Domus. It's just Which you had. Right? Which we have. Apple fucking did. Yeah. Actually, if you use the Zap script, it's still you can unlock it. Okay. Okay.   But, you know, it's such, like, a hidden feature now that it's it hasn't really It's, like, 5% of the zaps that I send or whatever. It's like a slider. Right? It's, like, a 5% choose 1 or up to a 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And the way that that works, actually, a lot of people may not know.  

It's not it's actually anonymous, so it just uses regular ln URL. So I don't actually see who who's doing it. So if there's some privacy stuff in there as well, it's not it's not an actual zap that you're sending to Domino's.   And then we made it interesting. Yeah. And then we made it set up is just it's just on my lightning node, like, right next to me right now. Every all of my entire I guess, all the business operations are done out of my Bitcoin and lightning node, which is, like, this whole other thing I would love to talk about one day, which is running your business on on lightning. It's like a pain in the ass.   I love I love it because it's just I feel like I could do everything out of my out of my computer, and that's, like, such a cool, like, cyberpunk thing. I don't depend Yeah. I mean, that part is cool. But you're also definitely missing  

[00:57:26] ODELL:

like, I've had Zap failures because Oh, yeah. Because you because you use your own node and, like, your own infrastructure. And Yeah. I mean, I just gotta make sure I have enough inbound liquidity. And it's a bitch and a half to run a lightning node. I'd say this as someone who runs many Lightning nodes. Like, I'm not being a Lightning hater.  

[00:57:43] Unknown:

I I was the first, I think, 10 Lightning nodes in my core Lightning node, on the network. And if you look at early,   pictures of Lightning, you'll see, you know, g 55.   I've been running that same node since 2018, and it's not had any any issues at all. So So core Lightning is amazing. So you should everyone should use core Lightning.  

[00:57:59] ODELL:

Is it true that you can't back up easily core Lightning?  

[00:58:04] Unknown:

Correlightning has amazing backup,   features. So one of the one I use is I don't I don't have a complicated disk setup. I really just have a run multiple. I don't even run a RAID setup at all. I just have multiple disks I wanna have for redundancy. And you can actually just pass command line option that says replicate your SQLite database to this other drive. So that's been my backup, and it's never been in Which is like it's like a manual raid?   Exactly.   Shout out to the Zman. I don't know if anyone knows Zman in in, like Zman's awesome.  

[00:58:33] ODELL:

He implemented that in in Core Landing. I met him at at Berlin. I'm like, I I didn't even know that he showed up at places, but he is a real person. He's not, like, an AI or anything. And Spiral's supporting him. If you ask if you next time you see Steve Lee on the spot, like, ask him ask him to spell out his name, and he can spell it out, like, z m s z m s c p s h.  

[00:58:53] Unknown:

Z m s c p zed, I think, j. I don't know. So I just call him z man.  

[00:58:58] ODELL:

Yeah. I I try and test Steve every once in a while. He can get it almost every time. Alright. So going back to purple Oh, yeah. Sorry. We we got off on a tangent.  

[00:59:06] Unknown:

So yeah. Purple I mean, again, I didn't like subscriptions.   I love this data split idea, and I definitely wanna bring it back.   But subscriptions have actually been really good   in terms of you know, it's actually been pretty good. It's it's able to pay a portion of, some of our employee salaries, and and it's, like, a very promising future. And I I think, most importantly,   I I basically implemented because everyone kept asking me to implement it. I didn't really wanna do it. But people the the people care so much on this network. They just they wanna support open source projects.  

[00:59:35] ODELL:

Yeah. I think we had a conversation about it back in the day too. Yeah.   Yeah. Exactly. I think it's a great idea.  

[00:59:42] Unknown:

I I'm starting to warm up to it just because, like, I didn't realize I get so much support, and, like, we only have, like, probably that's not only, but we we have actually have a large number of subscriptions. We're up to, like, about 350, I think. And that was just my next question. Which is not not it's not nothing. So your subscriber number, if you subscribe today, you'll see how many subscriptions.  

[00:59:58] ODELL:

I'm not When when are you gonna make the subscriber number public?  

[01:00:02] Unknown:

I'm I mean, it was I wanna drag. It it is it was originally, but then we had this discussion within the team. We're like, oh my god. It's gonna be this, like, weird, like   like, dick length contest or something. A 100%.   Yeah. I'm considering bringing it back. I think it's 38.   It just showed on my profile. Shout out to Igor. I think number no. Eric's number 2. Igor's number 3. So shout out to those guys. OGs.   But, anyway so, yeah, it's it to me, purple represents it's, like, an actual way to I'm trying to I want to build Domas to more than just, like, a, like, a pet project. Right? I don't wanna actually Right. Build this out, build more stuff, have more people on board. Like, there's a lot of people working from here right now that are just doing for free, like, out of the goodness of their heart, really, like LSAT. He just shows up every day and, you know, manages a lot of the product. Fucking awesome. I didn't even know there was, like, bit product Ophos people. Like, he was the first person I've ever interacted with who just was doing product on my I'm, like, who are you? Just showed up. I was actually initially kind of annoyed. I'm, like, I'm, like, I I don't I can do product myself. And then I realized, like, oh, shit. He's, like, really good at this. And he's documented, like, every issue on Domas. He's  

[01:01:06] ODELL:

putting together milestones or road maps, and I'm like He's become a friend. He's a legend. I I love that, dude. Yeah. So,  

[01:01:12] Unknown:

yeah. So I just, like hopefully, I can, like, one day just build Domus to be a successful I can actually pay reward these pay these people for doing all this hard work. But for now, it's just, like, it's just amazing to see that they they wanna support, the project. Anyway,   so purple, yeah, was my it's it's becoming more of a thing now where I'm starting to consider, like, what else can we do for our purple purple subscribers?   So we've had some really interesting chats even just, like, last week with the with the team.   As I'm I'm starting to think a lot more about   private relays.  

Okay. And I even have a Nostriga talk that I'm building right now called   private nostril. I mean, name of the talk is Saving Private Nostril because I don't even know why I called it back. So it's stupid.  

[01:01:53] ODELL:

And it's a great name.  

[01:01:56] Unknown:

But it's I'm just kinda cataloging all the different ways we can have a more private Noster,   because right now, it's, like, mainly focused on public and censorship resistant public square, you know, but a lot of people are working on broadcast. Stuff. You know, and, oh, Veeder has been working on his gift wrap stuff, which is, like, way to do private not notes on public   on the public public infrastructure, which is interesting.   Huddl bot. Yeah. Huddl bot is all these, like, really interesting group ideas, private groups.   FIA Jaff has been, like, really I think he's been pushing a lot of, like, you know, some micro relays with, like, custom moderation, like, the pyramid relay.  

And and for us at at Adonis, like, I wanna be able to have a a relay where our purple members can come and give feedback and and kind of talk together,   and that's without any external noise from, like, spam or anything like that. So I was thinking,   something needs to change in the Domus interface if I wanna support   relay like, relays as private communities.   So,   you know, a lot of people think this is a bad idea. Like, semi solar said it's a bad idea, but I think it'd be really cool   if we just have a purple relay where,   maybe it that only, you know, purple member members can write to. But, you know, a lot of relays actually do this right now, but it's not that interesting because,   they all get mixed together with all the other notes on your feed.  



[01:03:14] ODELL:

But also any like, I mean, we have a Bitcoin Park Relay, which only Bitcoin Park members can write to, but anyone can read. Would this be That's the same idea. That's what I wanna do with the purple relay. But right now, it's kinda  

[01:03:25] Unknown:

it's kinda annoying because there's no way to, like, jump into a view that just shows only notes from that   relay. Like, the closest thing you could do is go into the university in, turn off all the all the relays, and only and only seed knows from that one relay. Right. But I want a more first class support. I want something more like Discord where you maybe have a relay list and you click click 1 and you jump into the purple relay. And then and and any post you do is only sent to that relay. Isn't this counter to the idea of the outbox model?   I don't think it's counter. It's such as a different,   I mean, outbox the way that I view outbox model maybe people can correct me in the chat, but, the way I view outbox model is a way to do a more decentralized public square.  

Okay. But this is a little bit different. This is like and I I've always gave this analogy, I think, in early in the earliest, like, a year ago or something where, you know, maybe the public relays to public square is you got a lot of crazy people. You got, like, you know, you got this homeless person who's screaming   on your on your post when you're trying to just talk to people outside. And then maybe you want to go into, like, a private club that, you you know, members only, and you can just have a nice civilized conversation without people screaming in your ear that you're, you know, you're an idiot. Like, I get that a lot. I have a lot of for some reason, I attract autistic people and schizophrenic people on my post. Sometimes it just be nice to go somewhere and and just have a conversation privately without having broadcasted everywhere on a public square. So I I see them I see it a little bit differently than the outbox model.   So, yeah, it'd be cool if you just jump into a relay and just chat on it and chat with people on the relay. And then you can have custom moderation strategies, like the pyramid relay.  

I don't know if anyone knows about the pyramid relay by Fiat Jaffe, but it's really cool.   I don't know if have you have you seen it, Odell?  

[01:04:56] ODELL:

Yeah. I'm on the pyramid relay.  

[01:04:58] Unknown:

We talked about it a little bit while Fiat Jaf was on, but let's let's chat about it. Yeah. I mean, so this is just one example. It's like, we would never spec this. Like, this idea of,   you know,   so I wanna join a community, but,   I wanna I wanna basically grow a community over time, but I don't wanna just let anyone into this community. So, there's been a few instances of this implementation. One one website was called Lobsters, which is a, it's kind of like Hacker News, but with a pyramid invite model.   So you basically if you know someone, you can invite them, and then they can invite people. So it creates this tree of invites of, like, vetted people.  



[01:05:33] ODELL:

Yeah. I think in fiat jobs model, like, you have 3 invites. So someone invites me, I can invite 3 people. They can invite 3 people Who can then invite 3 people?  

[01:05:42] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like, at least as long as you trust transitively trust some people, it's, you know, it's route you have a relatively   isolated   relay,   that's, like, hopefully, not that's, hopefully, free from spam. Right?  

[01:05:55] ODELL:

So the only issue where And if, like, one leg goes off bad, you can just chop them up. The leg. Yeah. Exactly.  

[01:06:03] Unknown:

So the only issue right now is that there's not many good UI designs   that encourage,   you know, interacting only with one relay.  

[01:06:11] ODELL:

Right.  

[01:06:12] Unknown:

So Domus is really bad for this because I just you just blasted all the relays and relay lists. Like, if I add the pyramid relay, it's it's not that interesting, because I'm still getting spam from other relays in my feed. But it could work well in NoteDeck  

[01:06:23] ODELL:

in the NoteDeck interface.  

[01:06:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, if if we wanted to because it could just be one column. Could just be That's a good point. Yeah. I never thought about that. I will consider that. You can do a relay column.   That's just a single relay. Yeah. So, like, I imagine people will build Discord like interfaces on top of this idea. Oh, that's going even further. Doing like a  

[01:06:43] ODELL:

have you tried to huddlebot about this at all?  

[01:06:46] Unknown:

I haven't talked to him that often. No. So, like, huddlebot's, like, dream.  

[01:06:51] ODELL:

I I've he's such a good dude, but I love he's distilled his dream multiple times that he just   he knows he's succeeded if he can get his church group off of Facebook and onto Noster.   And he has this concept   where, like,   it's like a private square   that still   bleeds   get gets information from the public square, but, like, when they're actually communicating, they're only doing it privately. So you get the benefits of the global network of Master.   But but, like, your actual   commentary   or conversations are private.   Mhmm. And the rest of nostril doesn't see those.  

It's a it's it's a really   interesting framework that he's, like, working on, And, like, that's his that's his dream for Choracle  

[01:07:42] Unknown:

Interesting.  

[01:07:43] ODELL:

Is, like, this idea where, like and and, like, the simple the simple example would be, like,   you pull a CNN post from the public relay,   and then the church group,   you know, debates the merits of the CNN post, and no one else sees it besides the people in the in group,   the responses.  

[01:08:04] Unknown:

That definitely makes sense.   It's very similar to what I I'm thinking of, but I I never consider it from that angle where you wanna when you're in one view and you wanna pull stuff from the outside view.  

[01:08:14] ODELL:

Yeah.   And, specifically, though, in this in this scenario, he doesn't want   read access for people outside of the   group. Right? Yes. That's Which is a little bit different.  

[01:08:28] Unknown:

Yeah. So this is where the auth   is really important. And it is very flexible to what things you get you do with auth, which is, you know, maybe, like, what you're saying, you would have,   you know, write only for certain members, but maybe external people can read it. This is a little bit different where it's, like, you have write and read only as as it's completely blocked off. So only people members can read.   So I definitely want to support all these different, use cases.   Yeah. Because I think I think the biggest issue in Domino's right now is that it's just, like, everything's just mixed together, and it's think you can have some really interesting use cases   when you when you have really when you just focus in on one relay and all the interactions when you're when you're basically you basically scope the entire app to that one relay, and then all the interactions are only to that relay.  

So I'm I'm interested in those for use cases for sure. So, I mean, to pull it back, right now,  

[01:09:16] ODELL:

if I if you become a purple subscriber, you get a couple benefits. You get that warm fuzzy feeling of supporting Domus development and trying to make it sustainable,   and independent.   You get,   still get a public dick throwing contest in the date you joined. I mean, that's why I don't understand why you don't just show the fucking number. Like, the date is there anyway. I'll do it. I'll do it for you. Thank you, sir.   My my verbal pull request. I guess it's an issue because it's not working code.   The you get that you get the translations, the auto translations.   Cool feature.  

Very helpful. And once you start using them, you really miss not having them. It's very sticky.   And then I think that's it right now. Right? And then how and so, like, the this idea of a purple relay or some kind of   private Discord experience is one of the ideas. Do you have any other ideas that you're gonna add here on the premium tier? Yeah. I mean, so, like, as we were talking, there is one more thing, which is obviously the, the test flight access.  

[01:10:18] Unknown:

Oh, test flight access is massive, of course. Yeah. Because we wanted to have it like, hey. Look. If you're gonna support us, like, maybe you can get on, try the earlier different features early.   We never wanna make it so,   purple. It's, like, they have exclusive features.   I I think, eventually,   like, all features are gonna be available   for everyone, but we just wanna have purple people. They can, they can test it earlier than other people. What about Domus NIP Fives?  

[01:10:41] ODELL:

I know it's kinda pretty niche. But Yeah.  

[01:10:44] Unknown:

It's, it it'd be cool to have, like, to have that. I'm definitely considering it.  

[01:10:49] ODELL:

I mean, it's kinda odd. Like, there's, like,   large audience people that are using, like,   noster plebs or, like, nostril check, or they, like, did it once. I think there'd be demand to have a nice,   fancy NIP 5 from Domus,   especially as the network gets bigger. Like, it is technically   it's like your own little shit coin. You know? It's like there's a namespace there that is scarce.  

[01:11:16] Unknown:

Yeah. It is nice when you can just say, like, you know, follow me at j55 at domas. It's, and then and then we would have custom support where you don't even need to type at domas.i0. It just, like, automatically   look for the domus 1 first. So I I definitely have some usability features that I I I'll probably do it eventually. And then the other thing is,  

[01:11:36] ODELL:

so what do you what do you so right now, in domus, it defaults media uploads. It defaults to nostr   dot build, which is a different,   project.   Yeah.   That's like a pay per use project.   What are your thoughts on media uploads in Domus going forward? Is is that something that is a purple thing? Do you even wanna touch to that? I mean, I think you might not even need to run the servers. Like, it could be   you could get credits to, like, satellite CDN or something Mhmm. Or Nostril build or something like that with purple. Yeah. I've we've actually had a meeting with Nostril as, like, maybe,  

[01:12:13] Unknown:

if you get purple, you you could get, like, a Nostril build account automatically.   Yeah. I think that'd be cool. I just gotta figure out, like, you know, the actual financial of that. I don't know if that's gonna work out. But,   I know I've I've considered running my own media uploader, and I would only ever consider   it on a purple membership because I don't like the idea of having to do moderation  

[01:12:31] ODELL:

for, like, people uploading child porn. I like There's so much liability on the media upload side.  

[01:12:37] Unknown:

So it's it's kinda like a pain in the ass. I'm I'm happy that Nostril is kind of handling that. But you get to it's like you outsource the custodian   even if you're the custodian. I think that's a kind of, like, a pattern with, like, everything in domicile. It's like, I'm not gonna take on any liabilities. I'm just trying to officer,   you know, push that to other people, all the hard stuff. So I'm happy that they exist, and they're doing a good job with moderation. And and they're awesome.  

[01:12:58] ODELL:

So great. And satellite is great. Yeah. Event yeah. So, eventually, a solutes satellite,  

[01:13:03] Unknown:

they also they actually support the same spec. It's the   image uploading spec or whatever. So Domus will probably implement that, so you can at least choose between satellite or And I I mean, I  

[01:13:14] ODELL:

I don't know, but hopefully not. I know satellite's gonna add full blossom spec support. Hopefully, Nostril does the same.   I know primal's going too for theirs,  

[01:13:25] Unknown:

for their CDN. It's gonna be really interesting when you have, like, file sharing because I don't think we've there's been many social networks where you can, like, share files, and maybe that becomes a really reliable way to send files to people.   I don't know what the the story is for encryption, like, how that works. Like, are things I haven't looked too much in the blossom. What was really cool is,  

[01:13:43] ODELL:

I mean, you gotta listen to the last week's episode of Stewart and Hazard.   I saw Vanessa listen to it and enjoyed it.   The   like, just think of it as, like, at a basic level. Right? Like, I take this dispatch, right,   and   I upload it after we're done.   And I it's it's   a hash is made, and then I sign the hash with my pub key.   And then   in 2 years, when there's, like, all these deep fake dispatches or whatever,   people can fetch,   using the blossom spec, can fetch the exact   unaltered   version that was originally signed by my pubkey,   and they can do it by the hash. So if there's different hosts around the world,   you can pull it from any of those hosts. You know it's not altered. And if you can't find it, you could potentially   put up   a a a bounty, a sat bounty, and be like, I will pay 10,000 sats for the original CD 126   with Will   that is unaltered.  

And then it'll probably appear somewhere because  

[01:14:50] Unknown:

someone wants the money. That's and that was always my issue with, like, IPFS, which is this idea that, oh, yeah. We'll just have a global, you know, CDN with, like, hashes, but there's actually no incentive to mirror anything. And half the time you try to fetch something, it just doesn't work.  

[01:15:03] ODELL:

So if if, if this can fix the incentive cool is that? It's so simple too. I like how simple it is.  

[01:15:09] Unknown:

Yeah. It's just web servers and I don't know. I like that. I definitely I definitely wanna play with it, with my free time.  

[01:15:16] ODELL:

Cool. Cool. Cool.  

[01:15:19] Unknown:

Yeah. So Yeah. Go ahead. We were briefly touching on, you know, this idea of, you know, privacy on Nostra.   And it Oh, yeah. It it so I've been thinking about it a lot, so maybe I'll share some of the things I've been thinking about.   So, yeah, again, this private group idea is really cool.   But then Veeder so I actually had created a spec called   relay specific notes. And this was my attempt at this fixing this problem, which is, you know, if you are doing these private conversations, like, you know, in the Huddl bots case, like, what's stopping your client from just taking it and broadcasting it to the global network? So if you're if you're in a corporation corporate environment and you're having private conversations   and then anyone within the team can broadcast your entire conversation with the public network, like, this is Horrible. And it's signed too. So you know it's not altered. Yeah.  

So, you know,   it's just so bad. So I was like, okay. How do I how do we fix this problem? My first attempt at it was, okay. What if we change the, the event ID commitment? So maybe you hash one more thing as the event ID.   So, basically,   it becomes invalid   for every existing relay to, like, try to broadcast it. And you have to create a custom relay to   to handle these new messages that are that are Just go out of your way to do it. Yeah. And I realized, like, well, maybe this is kind of a pain in the ass.   And then this I think last night before, like, I think 1 in the morning, I randomly woke up and thought of another idea, which is because this is something that Veeder mentioned on that p o on that relay, which is he's more interested in a repeatability.  

This is this idea of   plausible deniability.   So let's say, you know, it is private. Let's say it's completely auth, and maybe you've created some mechanism that prevents you from broadcasting it to other relays.   But if it's still signed by your key,   then,   if you're if you're not sure if you're really ever hacked or exposed or leaked, then you have of all this, like, you know, signed data, which is really bad. Right. So I just thought of, like, the stupidest possible thing,   and it's gonna sound really stupid,   but it it it basically adds, deniability,   and it adds, non broadcast ability. And the idea is   when you so you you basically have your corporate relay, your trusted relay, you your client just does an auth and signs the auth request that verifies that you are in fact that person. Yeah. And then every note you send after that is just not signed. Just not unsigned. Yeah. So, like, they know it's like the Relay knows it's you because you did the auth, and it can save your notes, but it's there's no signatures on it. So if you if your notes are leaked,   then, you know, then it'd be like, well, anyone could afford that. If the people who hacked my relay could have just added data or altered my text. So that's plausible deniability, but it also has this huge flaw, which is,   you are trusting the relay, and now you have to build some special UI rig that says this is an unverified note. But for maybe for, like, a corporate environment, maybe that's okay. So I've been thinking about that as well. Anyway so there's lots of different ideas floating around.  

That's just one I had this morning.  

[01:18:10] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, there could be some, like, imposter situations, like, internal in the or I guess it would work better for smaller  

[01:18:17] Unknown:

Yeah.   Smaller groups. It's more for and it's more for, like, you wanna keep things private, and you don't wanna leak it to the wider network, and you won't have,   plausible deniability. So it's like an IRC server. It's like you can't go to an IRC server. The messages are not signed. Anyone can be, like you know? Or, like, anything. Like, pretty much everything we use. So I think a lot of people would find this offensive on Nostra because Nostra is a lot Like Slack, Discord  

[01:18:40] ODELL:

Exactly. Twitter.   The overwhelming majority of comms tech  

[01:18:47] Unknown:

is just unsigned. So it's probably distasteful,   for a lot of Nostr's devs, but I don't know. It's just an idea. I'll throw it out there. What are your thoughts on DMs?  

[01:18:55] ODELL:

How do we improve DMs? How do you think about that?   Because that's because when I think about it so we've touched on a bunch of different things. Like, new user comes in. Right? Yeah.   Zaps, like, they should   be able to do zap. Like, they wanna do I mean, they might not know they wanna do Zaps, but they wanna do Zaps. Media uploads   and then DMs.   Like, DMs, I think,   are something that I'd really do miss from Twitter. It was, like, one of my and DMs on Twitter fucking sucked. Yeah. But they're really bad on Noster, like, to the point where I feel I almost don't even wanna I try not to respond. And you can tell by   putting my pub key in and seeing which ones I've responded to and which ones I haven't, and I only do the bare minimum responses.  



[01:19:40] Unknown:

Yeah. The problem is Nasr is just really bad for GM. It's like Yeah. It's so bad, and that's why I haven't really focused on it too much in Domus. We have big base level support.   So people are trying to make it better. Like, you know, we add they added this new net 44 encryption spec. It doesn't solve anything. It just makes encryption slightly better. Okay. Great. There's still a lot of main issues we need to solve, which is,   you know, the metadata leaking issue. So maybe the outbox model can help a lot with that. So you have, like, a private relay, and only your DMs go to your relay,   assuming the clients do the right thing, which is probably not gonna happen.  

And and then but then look at who we're competing against. Like, we're our our competition for in this space is signal and WhatsApp who have double ratchet and all this great crypto   Yeah. That keeps things private if things leak. And,   I think that if we wanna actually do it right, then we need to be focusing on   the specs that are that are that people expect from a modern   messaging app. Right? WhatsApp is a double is double ratchet. Right? Signal is. And the majority of the world uses WhatsApp. Why would they degrade to, like, a a less to a less private and a less secure messaging system?  

[01:20:46] ODELL:

Unless there's unless, like, Nostra's really killing it in every other aspect and just makes sense. I mean, that's the reality. It's, like, most of the time I respond to Nostra DM, it's like, Nostra DM suck. Here, message me on signal. Yeah.   So I would at least now I can give them a signal link, you know, or signal username.  

[01:21:04] Unknown:

Yeah. So I I think I just need we need them need a new protocol or just need a double edged spec.   It's there's no reason why we have to use every Nostra for everything. Like, we can actually create a parallel spec that is just more secure and private. And you just use, like, Nostra for the discovery  

[01:21:19] ODELL:

and, like, For the public. Original negotiation.  

[01:21:23] Unknown:

Yeah.   I don't know. I'm just, like I'm not really I'm just not really bullish on anything DM wise until I see a a decent solution.  

[01:21:31] ODELL:

Okay. Noted.   Okay. Well, this has been a great conversation.   I've enjoyed it. I hope the freaks have enjoyed it.   We do have something else that we need to talk about.   You had some concerns that you posted on,   over the last few weeks.   Oddly enough, like, this dispatch was scheduled before those concerns were posted. It was not a response to that, which I think is an important   Yep. Caveat to make clear. But   I think it's important we discuss them, and it's important that we have open discussion as part of the reason why   CIDL dispatches a live unedited interactive show in the first place.  

So you have concerns about open sats. What are your concerns? How can we improve?   I want open sats to be the best it can possibly be,   and it's it's a process.  

[01:22:27] Unknown:

Yeah. And and I I think that, like, obviously, you know, some of the things I said, you know, people were interpreting it in many different ways. Like, I'm, like, this anti open Sats guy or,   anti, like,   what you guys are doing. But, obviously, it would be obviously, me and you, Odell, have had conversations on, you know, some of the issues that, you know, even Domus is having early on. And credit to you, like, you're always on top of things that you're very transparent   over over calls and things like that. So,   I'm not I'm not saying that, like, as a like, there's an issue with open sides, like, as a whole. I think there's a I feel like it's more of a perception issue and a PR issue for a lot of things, such as, you know, someone I was responding to someone in network who said,   you know, oh, why why aren't people calling out, like, these, like, paid influencers and things like that?  

And I I just said, like, I think there's a perception issue. I mean, there's, like, a there's a there's a PR issue with, like you know, there's a a perceived conflict of interest issue, right, with, 1031 and.   And I feel like when you're applying   for a grant and things like that,   you know, I feel like some people feel like they need to   tiptoe around certain things. Don't say certain things or,   you know, feel like they have to center themselves. Like, you know, this this happened with,   with seed signer. You know, seed signer, like, DM me. And they're like, oh, oh, yeah. Thanks thanks for, you know, saying this because it's what I've been feeling. You know? Like, I'm like, I get it because I I felt the same thing as well until I had a call with Odell. And, like, he explained that it's no. It's he's not involved in this decision making process. So my point was, like, I think there's a perceived   conflict of interest, and it's causing people to kind of, like,   I don't know. So that that was my only point, and people, like, kind of took it way way further than that than it was.  

And at the end of the day, what all I all I care about is, you know, the success of Nasr.   And,   and when I say these things, I'm I'm thinking of, like, potential ways that it can go awry. Right? So, you know, imagine a situation where   OpenSats, obviously, they're getting they they they control the funding, like, all the money. Everyone,   basically they can control the future of who succeeds and who doesn't succeed on on Oster. Like, they if they control all the funding.   Right. So they have a lot of power, like, it's a it's a very powerful position.   And when you have,   a handful of people who are making those decisions, you really want to know, you know, what, like, what are their, like, what are their, incentives, their interests? Like, what are their conflicts? Like, are they working on competing projects?  

So I think that causes a lot of, like, paranoia to people applying.   And, again, it's, like, these are really hard problems. Like, you know, giving them the money the hardest problems.   So all I would say is that the only thing that I but I feel maybe would go a long way, which would just be, like, if we knew who's making decisions and, like, who absolve themselves from the decision making process or, like, at least just know why are something was rejected. I think just those things I'm not saying, like, show what they voted on individually. Just, like, who was involved in decision making process and, like, and why was it why was what was the ultimate decision? Because, like, right now, when you get rejected, it's just like, oh, you're rejected. I'm like, oh, okay. I don't know if anyway, so that was, like, my only kind of, like, main I don't even tell it a criticism. It's just I don't I'm just worried that if this becomes such a common thing and people are worried about it, that's brought up all the time, it's gonna it's just gonna be a really bad PR issue, I think.  

[01:25:36] ODELL:

Okay. I like that. I I appreciate that feedback.   So let me just, like, pull it back real quick.  

[01:25:45] Unknown:

It is  

[01:25:49] ODELL:

fall of 2020.   Fall of 20 so so I've been active in the Bitcoin space for about 11 years, mostly focused on education.   And I've interacted with a lot of developers,   and I've interacted,   with a lot of, founders in the space. I mean, there weren't really that many Bitcoin startups yet in 2020, but a a lot of the different builders in the space a lot you know,   We're like you, friends with a lot of people in the space,   seeing a lot of the hard hard work that's being done,   interacting with them via the podcast, interacting via education, interacting with new users.   And me, personally,   I've always been a fan of building in the open,   which is one of the reasons   I love open source.  

And I think that,   like, freedom tech is hope, and it's the way forward.   It's like I was a disenfranchised youth before I found Bitcoin and before I found the greater freedom tech movement.   And I think it's incredibly powerful to build in the open, and it's definitely the harder thing to do.   But it's it's immensely valuable, and it and it means that every project is bigger than the creator and is viral and can be built upon by other people and it compounds.   And I had a lot of focus on education,   but I like doing the hard things. Like, I like doing the things that no one else   is succeeding at. Because I personally think, like, in if if you believe in building in the open, if someone can do it better than you,   then they should they should do it.  

And,   you should focus on something that someone else isn't doing, for the most part.   So I like focusing on the hard problems. So one of the issues that became immediately apparent   was the funding ecosystem in Bitcoin.   You know, 1,000,000,000 of dollars are going to the shit coin projects. Open source developers are having trouble getting support.   Ethical Bitcoin founders are having trouble getting support.   And Ben Price reached out to me. He was listening to the podcast.   This is before HRF existed.   Brink existed already at that point.   It might have been even before Spiral existed.  

And Ben reached out to me. I never met Ben in my life. He reached out on a NIM,   and he was like, Matt, like,   you keep talking on the podcast. You've gotta support open source developers.   Like, we should start a 5 zero one c three organization,   and we should support open source developers and people can get tax deductions.   And I was like, dude, I didn't know the guy yet. We weren't friends yet. I was like, dude, that sounds, first of all, very anti Bitcoin,   and it sounds like a lot of paperwork and a lot of headache, and I don't wanna fucking deal with the bureaucracy.   I was like, people should just donate to developers directly.  

And,   he's like, no. They want the tax deduction. You know? Like, they we gotta set up an organization, blah blah blah. I was like, one sec. Hold my beer.   So I start chatting with Dennis Ryman,   one of the BTC pay contributors.   Awesome dude.   We have a long conversation, and we build this site called Bitcoin Dev list.   And Bitcoin Dev list, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but anyone can submit a pull request to be listed.   It has a list of all these different Bitcoin developers,   and it has links to their BTC pay servers.   No middleman.  

There's a pre Zaps, pre Noster. Just send Bitcoin to the developers you wanna send Bitcoin to. We we can't even tell if you donated or not. Right? Because we're not the middleman.   Tons of Twitter engagement. People are like, oh, it's a great idea. You know, I wanna support devs. A lot of people always say they wanna support devs.   Not nothing really came of it. No one was no money no money was exchanging hands.   At the same time, like, GitHub Sponsorships came out, but that's all through Fiat, and the dev needs to, like, KYC with Microsoft and do all this shit. Not great either. And I so I isolated 2 main issues. Right?   The first issue is   is if you want, like, large corporate donations or large donations   from   from very rich people, they do want a tax deduction.  

And then for most people, rich   and not rich   combined, they wanna support open source contributors,   but they they don't wanna pick.   They don't like the friction of choosing who gets the money. They want someone else to allocate it for them.   So I went back to Ben. I was like, okay, Ben.   Like, I guess we'll do this thing, but we gotta do it in, like, the best way possible and try and mitigate all these centralization   concerns and try and, like, do it in the most ethical best way possible. And then second of all, I wanna do as little paperwork as possible. Like, you need to be the main focus on the paperwork side because I'm not trying to   create a 501c3.  

It just seems like a pain in the ass.   And Ben was fucking awesome. And he was like, yes. Let's fucking do it. Let's do this thing. Also, the Bitcoin company didn't exist yet.   I was like, okay. Well, we need a board,   and there's gonna be accusations that people are there's gonna be accusations. If we get any kind of money, there's gonna be accusations. We saw what happened to the Bitcoin Foundation. We saw what happened to all these other centralized organizations.   There's gonna be accusations.   So we should have a board of a of a a group of people that have good proof of work in the space,   and we should make it so that   any individual there, if they have biases,   that they can't really corrupt the process, try and make it corruption resistant.  

So we came up with this idea with a 9 person board. And we went out,   and we we invited the whole board. Right? Dredd, Nifty.   At that point, Udi was not, like, a clear, bad actor yet. Udi was one of the founding members of the board,   and, fortunately,   has left the board. We have ways of remote   board members can vote off all the board members, but in Udi's defense That was easy call. We asked him to leave, and he just left. We didn't have to actually vote him off. But pretty much everyone just immediately said yes.   And Catan was on the board too at that time. I don't know if people remember Catan, but he died on the hill of 1 supper bite. He left in the early days,   and and we struggled. We we so we so we finally get the 501c3.  

All the board is unpaid. We don't have a single paid employee.   We were just buried in paperwork, buried in organizational shit. No one wanted to donate. No one was supporting the no one was was providing any donations.   I kept saying to Ben, I was like, maybe we need to take, like, a cut of donations   like every other charity does instead of being a 100% pass through. But Ben's like, no. We gotta be a 100% pass through. Remember, Matt, we're trying to do this in the most ethical way possible.   We shouldn't have paid board members.   And   1031 was a tiny little fund at that point. It was like a friends and family fund,   that Grant and Jonathan,   my fellow managing partners, the founders of 1031 were running. And they provided us with a small grant.  

Early on, I think Ledger provided us with a grant. There was a couple other people to try and get the paperwork through, pay lawyers, pay account, and stuff like that.   And   they invited me to   to join them and help them really launch 1031.   And I said,   okay. I can see this. Like, this is this is the whole reason why I've been focused on supporting open source developers is because   the VCs in the space are super unethical.   You know, these guys seemed really mission aligned. They were like, we we wanna be like the ethical VC. We wanna be a VC that, like, tries to do it the right way. We wanna support open source contributors. We wanna invest in in companies that are completely false,   which is, like, very counterintuitive to most traditional VCs. They will not invest in a project that is open source in the first place.  

And and we even go further than that, encourage   encourage people. So we were having trouble receiving donations.   I saw a bunch of people that still needed funding,   and the   equity landscape was actually a lot more.   There was a lot more interest, of course. Like, people are more willing to give you money if they get shares of a company rather than a donation. Right?   As much as people wanna talk, like, really grand things,   it's a lot harder getting someone to donate than it is to get someone to invest, and both are incredibly difficult.   So 1031, we go   we raise and deploy a $125,000,000   across 36 companies in the space,   over the course of the next 3 years.  

OpenSats still struggling, trying to get people to get interested,   whatnot.   Nostrika happens.   Nostrika happens,   and at this point, Jack had already you know, he had, like, sent out some individual grants. Right? He had, like, the original Noster   Fund where he gave it to, like, Fiat Jaff, and I think you were part of that as well.   And   it comes out of Nostrika, and it's it's,   NVK comes to me and goes, Jack really wants   to, like, start up, like, a proper   Noster Foundation,   like, to to to do this in a more sustainable way.   And I said I said and they wanted my advice. Oh, you guys have been running open SaaS for 2 years. Like, what's your advice? Whatever. I was like, don't fucking do it. It's horrible. It's miserable. It's thankless. No one wants to donate. Like, we're, like, swamped over here.  

And I got on the phone with Jack, and I was like, maybe OpenSats   maybe OpenSats can do it. And if if OpenSats is gonna do it, we're gonna need actually someone full time to, like, run it properly.   And and that's when this idea of the operations fund was born. This idea of a separate fund,   that if you donate to that, that goes to operations, and that pays a full time employee and a couple part time employees.   Then it was like, who's gonna be the full time employee?   So I asked Jack. I was like, will will you if we create an operations fund, will you donate to the operations fund? And then I said to Ben and the rest of the board, I was like, are we cool with this? We're still a 100% pastor if you donate to the general fund.   But if you donate to the operations fund, then it goes to operations costs.  

And everyone was aligned,   and   we pulled and so I was like, we gotta ask Gigi. Like, Gigi was, like, born to to run this fucking ship.   So then we're, like, wrestling with Gigi. We're like, Gigi, you know, come join us. You know, come join us as we run this crazy   thing. We were, like, neck deep in and   and in over our in over our skis and have no idea what the fuck to do.   Jack agrees to give a small portion   of his donation to the operations fund, then agrees to give an additional to to double his donation. So instead of just, it's like,   here's, you know, 5,000,000 for Bitcoin,   5,000,000,   5,000,000 for,   and 250 I think it was, like, 250 for the operations fund to pay for Gigi salary and a couple part time people.  

And then all of a sudden, we're off to the races. That's where OpenSats, like, really became OpenSats. Like, we were really nothing up until that point.   And since then, we provided over a 100 grants.   We've received over 600 applications. Like, to me, like, Open Sats is, like,   this crazy project. Like, I don't think this has ever been attempted before at this scale, and I don't think it'd it'd be possible without Bitcoin. Like, every the whole treasury is held in multisig Bitcoin. The payouts are all in Bitcoin. We do every month. We're sending out   90 payments,   in Bitcoin, like, $600,000   a month that are going out to open source contributors around the world.  

Obviously, Gigi takes it incredibly seriously,   and and has so much passion, and he's getting burnt out even as it is. And we're we're getting fucking crushed.   And at the same time,   donations are still you know, they're kinda trickling in. We just got a big donation from the Reynolds Foundation. They're they donated a $1,000,000, which is the founder of Jane Street's Foundation.   Bitwise gave a big commitment,   a multiyear, 10 year commitment.   And we're trying to ramp it up, and we're trying this was, like, a year ago.   Like, that part of the story was a year ago is when Gigi joined.  

And I will just say that   we wanna be the best we can possibly be. Oh, also, everything   like, Gigi transformed our organization. Like, everything is done in a private GitHub repo.   Every review process, every vote, everything is all there's a massive audit trail there.   Everyone can see everyone internal of the organization can see it. If we ever need to be, like, externally audited, all that information's there. If there's anything,   amiss or anything, it's it's all fucking there.   Of course, it's not signed because it's GitHub,   but,   yeah, it's all there.  

And then on top of that, we came up with this idea of a noster committee, which is the idea of, like,   okay. Like, how do we scale this thing? OpenSAT should be more than just Bitcoin. OpenSAT should be Bitcoin for open source contributors of all different tangential kind of things starting with   Noster. And this idea of, like, a rotating   committee based approach for different concepts, whether that's Lightning or Noster   or Bitcoin Core   or maybe potentially in the future, like AI stuff or stuff like that. Right? And you you take a committee of experts that are peers in the area,   and you have them do the initial review and the dish initial recommendations, and then the board   does their review on top of that so you can try and scale it out. And so, like, our Nasser committee has, like, Fiat Jaff on it. It has Pablo on it. It has hollibot   on it. Daniele, who's the   one of the maintainers,   one of the contributors to gossip.  

And they that allows us to try and scale this thing   above and beyond where we currently are, because obviously the board members are Bitcoiners first.   So, anyway,   this is my that's my big background of open stats from beginning   to today.   We wanna improve it significantly.   We wanna keep iterating. I think feedback is really important.   But I will just reiterate that I just don't think anything of this scale has been done before. I don't think any kind of organization has been set up   to to be as transparent as as OpenSets is. And and can we be more transparent? Sure.   And there's this there's tray it's trade offs all the way down on everything.  

And the ideal situation   is people hopefully, Zaps unlock this. Right? That people just donate donate to open source contributors directly.   That   open source contributors   have ethical business models where they can monetize while still keeping open source   because of Bitcoin as a funding mechanism. I think and once again, I will say the Sparrow wallet, I think, is, like, this, like, primo example of it.   Sparrow has never taken VC money and has never taken   grant money, and he has a sustainable income.   And then last but not least, in that middle ground, in the short term, it'd be great if there's more organizations. Right? Like, I think HRF has been doing really good work.   I was really happy to see that they gave you a grant as in addition to OpenSats' grant.  

Like, I've more of that is better for the short term, but, like, really, I like the direct.   If we can do more of the direct, that would be that would be best case scenario.   Oh, yeah. But, like, different things. Right? Like,   I don't know if   may like, making the votes public makes sense,   because there's a reason why there's secret ballots and regular elections and stuff. And I there's, like, a whole argument that the reason congress is so corrupt   is because the special interests know exactly how they vote. So if they pay you off, they expect you to vote a certain way, and they can pressure you in a certain way.   So that's like, I'm not   I I don't wanna make the wrong decision, and we're open to feedback, and we're iterating.  

Amount sizes,   I don't really feel that comfortable   saying exactly I mean, I know you said you like,   grant recipients can obviously publicly disclose how much they receive if they want to.   I think you're the only one that ever has.   So, obviously, of our a 100 plus grant received recipients, they would prefer that they don't   have their information out there. So how do we find a middle ground there? Like, try we released a whole transparency report at the end of the year that tried to, like, mix them all together.   And then last but not least,   I love Milan.  

I love primal.   I think he's an amazing builder in the space. 1031 did invest. We did invest before open sats   provided any kind of path. I think in a post Open Sats world, it's like primal is an exact example of somewhere where, like, maybe it doesn't even go for VC funding because you can go to an open sats as a seed funding.   It was before that.   It's completely false.   I've voted yes and approved grants for, like, 21,   quote, unquote, competitors to Primal.   I   there's not if those if those GitHub,   audit trails or whatever ever get leaked or shared or whatever, there's absolutely nothing I'm mining from there.   And,   Yeah. I guess I guess that was a very, very long winded,   explanation,   context.  



[01:43:33] Unknown:

No. And that's and that's, like, and that's just a test to like, you guys are obviously,   you know, you you as open as you possibly can be. Right? Obviously, I'm not suggesting   that you, you release who votes on what or,   or release numbers.   But I think a lot of the times, like, even just like the Nostra case, it's it's such a tight knit community. I think this kind of, like, a like, it's in some sense where we wanna leverage these experts, but it's also they're all they're all building competing things. So if you're applying Yeah. What's the solution? I I don't  

[01:44:03] ODELL:

like, there's no one without bias that is  

[01:44:06] Unknown:

there's conflicts everywhere. Right? And you try and manage the conflicts and keep So it's like keep people honest. You have this mechanism for, like, conflict, but, like, everyone on that committee, it sounds like it's conflict because of any field Who's the not who's, like, someone who, like, can assess and review Nastor projects that doesn't have a perceived conflict? It seems like yeah. That's what I'm saying. It seems like an impossible   possible problem. Just and maybe that's more of an issue with Noster in general because What's everything, I think? I mean, like, who are the  

[01:44:34] ODELL:

like, who are who are Bitcoin specialists that don't have conflicts?  

[01:44:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, maybe if you're,   like, not building a com like, a product that you're selling, like, if you're just, like, an open source contributor,   you know? I know. So I just like that is a that I think that is to the core of the issue what a lot of people were, like, rumbling about, and I just simply, like, threw my thing. I'm like, oh, yeah. It might be an issue.   I'm not like it was it was not an attempt to, like, trash you guys or anything, but it was just something I've been noticing that I've been and I just don't want it to be, like, this, like, negative or so maybe I'm I'm at this point now. I'm just like, okay. I'm gonna stop talking about it because, obviously, it's a very touchy subject, but I still think yeah. I think the transparency, like, having someone at least show that, you know, who is involved. Like, right now, we don't even know who's involved. Yeah. I like that feedback.   And just like that little things like that. I think that And, also, we've been bad at giving feedback  

[01:45:23] ODELL:

to nonapproved   people.   We're just overworked.   I mean,   like I said, it's the only person who's on full time salary is Gigi,   and then he has a couple part time people underneath him. And we're that's relatively recent. Like, we're trying to scale it up,   in terms of giving people, like, proper feedback.   But I would add, like,   there's another element here. Like, people don't realize, like   like, this shit is fucking hard. Like, it is really, really difficult.   It is it is essentially a full time job for me and Ben, and we're not getting paid a cent. Our board contributes a ton of their time,  

[01:46:03] Unknown:

and they're not getting paid a cent. I think most people in the community would be okay with, like, you guys being paid. Like, it's not like, the whole passionate thing is, like, it's great, and that's, like, honorable, but,   you know, this is a bigger thing. I don't know about that. I feel like it'd be everyone would be okay if you're getting paid as long as, like I don't know. I think that's that's not And so then we're gonna are we gonna have debates about how much, we should get paid? Like, I don't know if that I think that I think there's something special about,  

[01:46:28] ODELL:

knowing that if you provide a 100% if you provide donations to the general fund   or the Noster Fund, a 100% goes to open source contributors.  

[01:46:37] Unknown:

We just I think most people just want it to run efficiently. We don't want you guys, like, pulling your hair out and, like, going crazy. We're trying to scale that part up, and that's why we're bringing in, like, the different part time people under Gigi.  

[01:46:49] ODELL:

And we need to, like, get the feedback out. But I will also add, there's another thing here that is, like, really difficult,   that is really difficult and that people should be aware of it and   keep it in mind.   I think open discussion is incredibly important.   I like I said, I I try and build everything in the open.   Like, even 10/31 is, like, is a very open book, 10/31. Like, you know, every company that we're invested in, a lot of a lot of funds aren't like that.   I we talk about I talk about it on dispatch all the time, talk about Robert Hall recap all the time every week.   Obviously, both of those are unedited live shows.  

Dispatch has an interactive live chat. I'm very responsive on Nastra. I used to be very responsive on Twitter before I deleted my   Twitter account. But something people don't keep in mind   is, first of all, raising money is really difficult.   Whether that's equity money through 1031   or whether that's open open source. And keep in mind, like, Dorsey's commitment of 10,000,000 was huge.   The Reynolds Foundation, $1,000,000 commitment is huge. Bitwise's future potential commitment could be big.   Pales in comparison to VC money. Right? It's like negligible money compared to   the 125,000,000   we've deployed in 10/31.  

And then if you compare that to shitcoin funds and, like, traditional VC funds, like, 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars.   But   one thing that I did not consider   until after I've done this thing and I look. I want as many I hope that more open sats get created.   I hope, you know,   more, you know, more avenues for funding across the board get created, whether that's in VC land or   open source, like, grant side, more grant makers.   Once you get involved in money, man, and you're you're you're giving people money and people are asking for money,   the enemies start adding up really quick. Like, we have we we had 600 applications to OpenSats.  

We provided a 100 over a 100.   There's 500 people out there that wish they got money or wish they got more money,   and it's really disheartening. There's a lot of there's a lot of just lies that come out that people just don't like you, and they just make up shit. And it muddies the water. It makes the open discussion way more difficult.   And I feel like people don't people don't really appreciate that, and it's gonna get worse. I know it's gonna get worse. And it's fine because I'm not here for a popularity contest. Like, I just don't really care. But,   I mean, it does hurt. A lot of times it hurts. But I'm I'm gonna deal with it. I'm gonna do the hard fucking things. But it's important to realize, like, as more applications come in, not everyone's gonna get approved, and people aren't gonna be happy about it. And it makes it muddies the whole water, and it makes it a lot more difficult. Yeah. I just think that,  

[01:49:46] Unknown:

yeah, I think that's why, like, the rejection reason is very important. Otherwise, people are gonna literally just gonna speculate and, like, make up crazy reasons,   and, like, conspiracy theories Yeah. Which you have a reason to My point is they're gonna do it anyway.  

[01:49:57] ODELL:

Yeah. Even with a reason or not. But It doesn't matter. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna constantly have the discussion over and over again. We're gonna try and be more transparent. We're gonna try and do feedback. People are gonna say I'm not answering questions. They're gonna do this. People are gonna act in bad faith. People are gonna act in good faith. Right? And it's it just   this is why   if zaps work,   it'd be fucking huge. But  

[01:50:21] Unknown:

if they do work, it's still way too early. Even something like Domus Purple. Once again, like, I would love to see Domus Purple make you guys super sustainable, and I don't wanna discourage it. But, also, like, people should be reasonable on on on what they think your revenue is on that kind of Yeah. And, like, I'm not I'm and I'm not I can't run Domus on Domus Pro right now. It's like me Exactly. So it's like, yes. We'll obviously rely on grants. And so I I think I made a post post that was like, you know, we can't rely on grants. What I really meant was I can't solely rely on grants. You know? Yeah. People should be making the effort to, like, try to build a business model. This is something you said as well. I mean, I do it to heart, which is, like, you know, Open SaaS is not a business model.   Yeah. So we shouldn't be relying on it. And, like and if you feel like you're betting all your, you know, your things on just this one system, it's like, well, yeah, you it's you're gonna get burned, and, you know, we should be looking at other,   other solutions. But, ultimately, it just comes down to users. Like, we just need more users. If we have more users app, any more users subscribing to Yeah. Apps 100%. I think we're at, like, 10000 to 20000 active users, which is very, very small. I think our threads has, like, 1,000,000. Like, Mastodon has, like, tens of 1,000,000. Like, I mean but I don't know. So we just need to grow that user base, and I don't know I don't know how to do that. I think everyone should be focusing on different ways of bringing new people on board and different experiences.  

And then it that'll help. But until then, like, obviously, we're relying on on the system. And,   but, yeah, that's why I appreciate, like, obviously, going through that whole thing and explaining it because I think that's what that's what all people want. They just wanna know the thought process that they wanna see, like you know? And I think you're doing a good job at that, and, and and people really we really appreciate, the openness you guys have been doing. So  

[01:51:54] ODELL:

Awesome. Well, I appreciate that. It's a tough it's all of this is super hard.   I sometimes I still can't even believe,   you know,   that it's that that we've even gotten this far. You know? It's,  

[01:52:14] Unknown:

it's not crazy. There's there's no is unprecedented. There's no open source funding model that's, like like, maybe, like, the Mozilla Foundation or some other huge but it's it's pretty rare that you just get, like like, all this money handed out for   for free. So,   yeah, maybe, I should be less critical and and more appreciative. I think that's something I should I should definitely, But like I said, all feedback. Like, I need we we need to improve. We need to make it better.  

[01:52:41] ODELL:

And, like, we haven't even we're, like, year 1, basically, basically, like I said, of any kind of substantial size. Like,   we wanna have a some of these grants are long term support grants, which are, like, 2 year terms.   Some of them are gonna wanna be renewed whether they're LTS or not. And there's just, like, a progress report that happens and then, like, a rereview process. Like, all of this shit. Like, we gotta, like, we gotta figure it out. We gotta process size it. We gotta make it as efficient as possible. We have to make it as fair as possible.   There's, like, a lot of unsolved problems.  

And,   particularly grant recipients   are going to be our key to that process,   and you are a grant recipient.   Like, helping us improve that process is really, really, really helpful and important.  

[01:53:29] Unknown:

So I'm not trying to discourage that, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And, obviously, you know, Open SaaS is such a pivotal has of of really high and pivotal importance to the success of Nasr at this point. It's it's really, you know,   where these funds are allocated can lead to, like, really, you know, important things being built.   And I just don't I just don't want it to be I just want it I just want it to succeed, really. So Yeah. Any any criticism that seems, like, kinda harsh, it's usually just me just, like, trying to get feedback in my way, which isn't always   sound very nice. But,  

[01:53:59] ODELL:

I'm Well   well, thanks for having the hard discussion. I, you know, I don't think   either of us really enjoy   enjoy going through all of that.  

[01:54:10] Unknown:

But I But it's important. I hope everyone viewing watching this is like, you know, I hope it was spicy enough. I was just trying to pump your viewership of your show, really. Yeah. That's always all about it.  

[01:54:21] ODELL:

At the end of the day, everyone's just engagement horror.   I really enjoyed the Domus portion.   I'm glad we got   got catch up again.   It had been a minute.   We should make them more regular. I would love to have you. Obviously, the show is, like, quickly having more and more of an Oster focus, so I would love to have you on more often.  

[01:54:44] Unknown:

For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's always, it's always fun coming on. You're not I mean,   you're, like, you're legit. Like, you're, like, you've been around for a long time, and you you'd know most people in this space. And you have such a I think it's it's great talking to you about all these different aspects of Bitcoin and Asher coming together. And   so, yeah, I've I've always appreciated it, and, it's been a lot of fun. Awesome. I wanna get Elsad on too. He's awesome.  

[01:55:10] ODELL:

Yeah. I gotta get him on.   Awesome.   Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?  

[01:55:17] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   I think, obviously,   we're a couple years a year and a half into this thing. And, what we've sometimes, it's good to look back at all the shit that's we've accomplished. And sometimes we beat ourselves up over,   you know, whether things aren't going fast enough or it's going too fast or, you know, we're not as successful. But, you know, I I think what the most important thing is we just not forget our our values, like, why we're doing this. And,   and even if we have these little invites or even if we call them fights,   but I think everyone just really just cares   about this project and   and building this out just so more and more people can use it. And, I just want I think just hope everyone keeps that in mind and and think I don't think there's gonna be, like, a a quick thing, or it it could be a slow thing like Bitcoin. Bitcoin took Bitcoin, like, 10 years before before even it started hit mainstream. And now it's starting to I mean, Taylor Swift hasn't, you know, come out in love of saying that she supports Bitcoin, but, you know, we're getting there. So, anyway, so I just keep that in mind, and, I think what we're doing I think we're on a good pace, and, it's been a blast of building this thing when and everyone here on the chat who'd been experience experiencing it with us. It's, appreciate everyone who's,   been here for the ride, and let's keep on going.  



[01:56:27] ODELL:

Damn right. I appreciate you, Will.   Gotta keep pushing forward.   Freaks,   thank you to those who support the show. You know dispatch is,   audience funded. We don't have ads,   or sponsors.   So you guys keep it going, and it really does mean a lot. As always, though, if you donate through podcasting 2 point o apps like Fountain and Breeze, 5% goes to OpenSats, which is pretty cool. Hopefully, more podcasts will start doing that. We   have our biggest supporters of the week,   scrolling on the bottom of our feed now,   which was a idea from a reviewer, which I thought was pretty great.  

At came   in with the   the biggest donation this week. We have 50,000 sets. So thank you, Freak.   Some other big supporters,   include Anon,   who's just completely anonymous with 21,000 stats. IS MYHC   with 21,000 stats. Average Gary with 21 1,000 sats, and Max a Webster with 21,000 sats. I merged the podcasting 2.0 and ZapStream,   donations,   together in that, by the way, for what it's worth.   I got a crazy week lined up for us.   Tomorrow, we have Anna coming from,   Navalny's   anti corruption foundation.   So Navalny was the opposition candidate to Putin that   got murdered in, a Serbian jail,   Siberian jail, not a Serbian jail.  

And, they've been using Bitcoin for a long, long time, so we're gonna talk about Bitcoin. So that'll be great. I'm trying to do a Nostra episode and a Bitcoin episode every week if possible. And then next week that's at 1700 UTC tomorrow. And then next week,   we have,   I have Kieran coming on,   web app extraordinaire   of ZapStream and Snort.   That's gonna be a 5th 1500 UTC. So 2 hours earlier on Tuesday,   because it was too late for Kieran otherwise.   And then I have Ben Ark coming on the day after at 1700 UTC to talk Ellen Bits,   Nasser, and Bitcoin.  

So that's exciting. I'm pretty excited about those.   Will, thank you again for joining us.   This was great. I really do appreciate you, and,   hopefully, we'll chat soon.  

[01:58:54] Unknown:

Cool. Thanks for having me. Cheers.  

[01:58:59] Unknown:

Hello, new world.   All the boys and girls, I got some true stories to tell.   You're back outside,   but they still lie.  

[01:59:12] Unknown:

Woah. Yeah.  

[01:59:13] Unknown:

Take off the Fufu. Take off the couches. Take off the wifi. Take off the money phone. Take off the car loan. Take off the flex and the white loss. Take off the weird ass jewelry. I'm a take in steps, then I'm taking off top off. Take off from fabricate streams and the microwave memes. It's the real world outside. Take off your idols. Take off the round rack. Take off the Cairo.   Gas up. Take off the new logic. Take off the broken bed. Take off the Take off the shirt now. Take off the doj. Take off the broken bag. Take all that designer bullshit off and what do you have? Bitch,   you ugly as   fuck. You out of pocket. 2 ATMs. You stepping to what? You have   pocket. Who you been? They talk about talk about us.  

Treat you crackers like I'm jitter. Watch out on it all. Oh, you were a biocritic   betting protocol.  

[02:02:26] ODELL:

Love you, freaks.   That track was n 95 by Kendrick.   Hopefully, I'll see a bunch of you tomorrow.   I really do appreciate all the ride or dies you   share the show.   Friends and family, join us in the live chat.   You guys all make it   very   special. So thank you all. Love you all. Stay on the Stack Sats. Peace.