Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 115
BLOCK: 820048
PRICE: 2276 sats per dollar
TOPICS: building a mainstream nostr client, integrating a bitcoin wallet into primal, is nostr too bitcoin focused?, zaps are straight fire

project website: https://primal.net

nostr live chat: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com/stream⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
nostr account: ⁠https://primal.net/odell⁠
youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@citadeldispatch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
podcast: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.podpage.com/citadeldispatch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
stream sats to the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.fountain.fm/

(00:01:22) Nostr adoption and progress

(00:23:04) The controversy around Primal's approach

(00:25:41) Primal 1.0 and its significance

(00:49:17) Trade-offs in Nostr and Bitcoin adoption

(00:50:13) Dealing with an AI bot in the chat

(00:51:00) The ease of onboarding to Primal app

(00:51:35) Future plans for Nostr and Primal

(00:52:11) Development and knowledge transfer in the dispatch stream

(00:52:30) Simplifying the onboarding process for Nostr and Bitcoin

(00:53:02) The value of zaps in Nostr and social media

(00:53:18) The importance of censorship resistance in Nostr

(00:54:09) Feature requests for the Primal app

(00:55:45) The challenges of adding more settings to the app

(00:56:27) The open development of Nostr and the power of the community

(00:57:23) The potential for Nostr to attract content creators

(00:58:02) The importance of censorship resistance and the potential for censorship on other platforms

(00:59:05) The realization of the need for censorship resistance

(00:59:48) The potential for Nostr to attract users who are not aware of the importance of censorship resistance

(01:00:31) The core adoption base of Nostr and the messaging to content creators

(01:01:31) The value proposition of Nostr for content creators

(01:02:03) The closing of walls on centralized platforms and the openness of Nostr

(01:03:05) The importance of treating Nostr as a first-class citizen

(01:04:26) Acknowledgment of audience support and donations

(01:05:58) Shout-outs to top comments and boosts

(01:06:36) Encouragement to share the podcast with others

(01:07:02) Plans for future conversations with the guest

(01:07:13) Final thoughts on the book 'Mandibles'

(01:08:17) Reflection on the accuracy of the book 'When Money Dies'

(01:09:53) The impact of hyperinflation and parallels to the book

(01:10:51) Favorite characters in the book 'Mandibles'

(01:12:21) The potential to troll non-Bitcoiners on Nostr in the future

[00:00:30] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech.   I have good friend and return guest here today, Milan of Primal,   the Noster client. How's it going, Milan?  

[00:00:51] Miljan:

Going amazing. How's it going, Freaks?  

[00:00:54] ODELL:

It's a pleasure to have you, brother.  

[00:00:57] Miljan:

Great to be back.  

[00:00:59] ODELL:

So,   first of all, to the freaks that continue to join us in our Noster live stream, that's civil dispatch.com/stream.   When you go to that link,   before the show starts, it shows you   the last episode and the chat from the last episode. So don't be alarmed,   when you see video has ended. That is why it says that.   Okay. So today, we're gonna be talking about Noster adoption.   The Bitcoin price is absolutely   going going bulltard, but, we're not here to talk about the Bitcoin price. We're here to talk about   Noster adoption and,   how that is going, how that path is going. Elon, when did I last have you here?  



[00:01:42] Miljan:

Oh, it's been a few months. It was,   that event we had,   in Asheville.   Would it was in Knoxville. What was the name of it? I forgot now.  

[00:01:54] ODELL:

Were you at Global Bitcoin Summit or with the HRF peep we do so many.   Were you at the lightning were you at the lightning summit?   Yes. Is it the lightning summit? That's it. I'm not Stefan Levaro, so I don't, like, remember episodes   numbers.   If that was the case, that was July.   Is that possible?  

[00:02:14] Miljan:

I, the the last few months are a blur for me, I must say. Like, now that we've kind of shipped our 1 point o of the iOS app, I'm, like, exhausted but happy. And don't ask me about any details about July 13,  

[00:02:29] ODELL:

2023.   I guess I should've looked that up before the show.   So quite a few months. It seems almost like a lifetime ago in no Yeah. It was like it was basically a decade ago in Noster terms.   So,   well, how are you looking at I mean, right now, I   you know, I use Noster on a daily basis. I use Primal on a daily basis.   I think the progress has been absolutely phenomenal.   How are you looking at it?  

[00:03:05] Miljan:

Thank you. Yeah. I think the progress across the board when you look at all of the Nasr clients, when you look at where everybody was, let's say,   6 months ago, seems like 5, 6 months ago is when we talked last on air.   And then,   you know, if you go back   a few months even prior to that,   the rate of progress is just astounding,   both in terms of the number of projects that are sprouting on Noster   as well as the quality of the work being done by everybody.   Right? Like,   when I I discovered Nostred, by the way, a little bit less than a year ago, I think it was mid December   22.  

And I remember thinking when I discovered it, like, wow. This is this is great. This is gonna work,   but how good can we make it? Because, like, all the clients that were available back then were,   quite kind   of rudimentary   early days types of clients, and you could see, like, they're   very rough around the edges.   So   fast forward 6 months, everything's much better. There are way more clients, and fast forward almost 12 months,   I think we're getting close   to sort of prime time, I think, with with many of the leading clients in terms of features   and,   kind of the the level of polish and performance.  

I don't think we're quite there, honestly.   But let's talk about Primal specifically, like, the the iOS,   one point o. We're proud with what we've shipped,   but there's still   room for improvement, and we're kind of looking at those incremental improvements from here.   I think we're   as as a whole space, we're probably   a few months   away from from kind of the level of polish that people are used to in legacy,   kind of centralized apps.  

[00:05:02] ODELL:

Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, I mean, you started with your own personal journey, which you said was a year ago. So that was, like, December 2022.   I mean, I had Fiat Jaff, jb 55,   and Kooks on,   April 2022,   and I Noster was like nothing at that point. Yeah.   That was a year and a half ago.   Right? That was   April 2020. Yeah. It was a year and a half ago.   Noster was absolutely nothing.   And I I think it's important for people to, like, just, like, temper your expectations a little bit. Like, it's I think it's important that we don't take the foot off the pedal, and and Yeah. And we're we're very aggressive here in terms of adoption.   But but the amount of progress that has been made   in the last 16 months, the amount of progress that's been made in the last 8 months is fucking astounding,   and it's mostly happened in this just, like, organic viral nature.  

Yeah. It it it hasn't been, like, just a single centralized entity trying to, like, make fetch happen.  

[00:06:09] Miljan:

Totally.   Like, just look the trajectory   of of progress of the number of apps, number of all kinds of different, you know, projects being built on it, as well as the quality.   And I think I tuned into that episode   with, Fia, Jeff. Who was who else was there? Fia, Jeff, and a couple of other It other It was Will. It was jb55, Fiat Jeff, and mister Kooks. So I tuned into that one, and it didn't work for me. I was like, I I kind of,  

[00:06:39] ODELL:

I missed it. You know? Well, so, like, the research the research I did   to prepare for that episode was use Brannly,   which was Fiat Jaffe's I love you, Fiat Jaffe. Horrible client.   It was, like, so early. He was the best client ever up until that time. I don't think Dom has existed yet. I have to go back and listen to the episode, but I think Will was, like, working on it. It was more of an idea than a actual   project yet.  

[00:07:08] Miljan:

Yeah. We all use Bradley and derivatives of it. Yeah. And,   like, I don't think we actually   used any of the code from from that client in our web client where it started from scratch, we decided to use,   Solid JS and kind of just start from scratch.   But we all use the brand new and derivatives,   and,   yeah. I mean, it was impressive that it worked   at all, actually.   And you with the right kind of eye, you could see, you know, where things were going.   But for me, unfortunately,   it didn't quite click for me back, let's say, mid last year. I think there was a Marty podcast, and it was your podcast where, you guys covered Noster.   I completely missed it even though I tuned into those episodes. I I thought, oh, this is bullshit. This is not gonna go anywhere. Yeah. I think shortly after that dispatch, Marty had Will on, if I recall correctly. Okay. So one or the other. Exactly.  

So it was only after Dorothy,   started making a bit of noise about it that I decided to take a closer look, and then I I just read through the spec.  

[00:08:18] ODELL:

Carlos, in the live chat, I'm not sure if zaps are working. You should do more tests.   Okay. Sorry.  

[00:08:24] Miljan:

Yeah. Do tests and do tests with all kinds of amounts.   Probably very high amounts are working well. Only one way to find that.  

[00:08:33] ODELL:

So it was Dorsey's it was Dorsey's,   not really a grant, but Dorsey's funding of of   originally that that caught your attention?  

[00:08:42] Miljan:

No. It was a little bit before then. It was when Dorsey started   posting on,   when when he started participating   and   started posting about it on Twitter.   So I'm a part of that cohort of people where yeah. Like, I just   that that was kind of the last nudge for me to actually take a closer look and read through the spec, and I was literally halfway through reading through nip 1   that it hit me, like, okay. This is totally gonna work.   Yeah. I mean, the next question in my head is, I wonder how good this can get.   I wonder how good,   kind of the apps and services   built on top of this, protocol can actually get in terms of UX.  

I had doubts and questions in my mind, but there was a niche that I needed to scratch. So I was like, okay.   I think I'm gonna I was chatting with NVK back then, and within the span of 1 week, I was like, okay. I'm gonna fall in. I'm actually gonna put the team together. I'm I'm gonna find out,   myself how how good the UX can get for Nasr, and I'm still in the process of finding out.  

[00:09:53] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, door   like, Jack,   I just call him Dorsey because of Jack Mahlers. Dorsey,   I try and just call him Mahlers and Dorsey.   Dorsey   should deserves a lot of credit for his early funding of the ecosystem. No strings attached, by the way, which is key. Right?   Because, you know, for better or for worse, Jack has a has a lot of baggage from his post Twitter days.   And he he deserves a lot of credit for it. That original   funding that he provided,   to fiatjaff   was like,   I I'm pretty sure he just he just sent Bitcoin from a mobile wallet. Like, nonchalantly, he was like, fuck it. Let's do it, and just sent it. I think he, like, asked Fiat Jaffe, like, will you set up, like, an organization or whatnot? And Fiat Jeff's like, I'm not doing any paperwork. And he just sent him a Bitcoin transaction, which is baller.   And then, obviously, he supported Open Sats,   with a massive donation for both,   for Bitcoin projects and, for Nostra projects, including 5,000,000 that was just allocated purely for Nostra projects, no strings attached. So there's a lot of credit for that. What he doesn't get enough credit for, in my opinion, is that he went nostril only for, like, 3 months   before most people   were even using nostril.  

And I   I personally have this theory that the single best way to promote Noster is to post exclusively there. Like, if you actually believe in the if you actually believe in the mission,   and if you actually have content that people wanna consume,   then you should leverage that, and you should post exclusively to Nasr, and people will people will come seek out that content. It's an extremely strong incentive to come.   And it's part of the reason that I ended up choosing   to just cut ties with Twitter even though it was the only social media I've used for a decade,   and I have a massive audience that I built up there. One of the reasons I I I took the jump and actually cut off Twitter was because he did that.  

And, like, how could I say I have a massive audience on Twitter   and then watch Jack   stop using Twitter? Like, his audience is way larger than mine.   So, yeah, I just don't think he gets enough credit for that. And I I I   we're we're starting to see more and more people do that.   I think the incentives align for people to do that just from,   ownership point of view and a sovereignty point of view. Like, you wanna use   if if if if you're producing content and you're building an audience, like, you wanna control that. Right? You wanna you wanna have ownership over that. You don't wanna be a product on someone else's social media platform.   And like most social media in general, I mean, Nostra's a lot different than traditional social media because,   it's it's this interoperable permissionless protocol   at the base.  

But, usually, first movers have a significant advantage. So,   the the content creators,   that are are moving to Noster now,   stand to benefit   much more than people that might lee might join later.  

[00:12:58] Miljan:

I agree overall.   I agree that,   our success in growing Nostra revolves around, the ability to,   onboard content creators   and,   provide the the space for them and and all the tools necessary for them to,   to be successful.   And I think   Zaps and the whole kind of monetization side on Aster, I think it's paramount   to to for it to work flawlessly and to be,   widespread   in its usage,   which is why we took,   you know, the some some of the,   the approaches that we're taking with the iOS client and the upcoming Android client.   We we really wanted to,   enable as many people as possible   to hold SaaS and send small amount amount of value to content creators.  



[00:13:52] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean   okay. So before we get to primal 1.0,   search primal in your app store.   Before we get to primal 1.0,   I wanna ask you a question. So there's been some controversy on Nostr,   or among Nostr users   that there's too much Bitcoin conversation.   I've used Twitter for a decade. I've only talked about Bitcoin.   I plan to use Noster for the next decade. I'm only gonna talk about Bitcoin.   I and Nasr. I'll talk about Nasr on Nasr as well. I talk about it all the time.  

[00:14:31] Miljan:

Is that a problem? Is that a problem? It's also Nasr talk.  

[00:14:35] ODELL:

Yeah. It's, like, it's 90%   well, at least what I see is 90% Nostril talk and Bitcoin talk. Yeah.  

[00:14:42] Miljan:

So question is whether that's a problem.  

[00:14:45] ODELL:

Yeah. How do you feel on that?  

[00:14:49] Miljan:

I think it's natural that a network like this is being seeded by Bitcoiners. That's to be expected because of our our values   and, our understanding of the problem and our understanding of the, potential solutions for this. So it's it's natural that the initial cohort of users are going to be very kind of, Bitcoin,   heavy.   Having said that, I think we should be mindful of that and,   try to grow the network deliberately to the extent possible, right,   to expand   to other groups.   I think it's fine at this early stage that   we have the user base that we do. It's it's excellent. I mean, the there,   there aren't too many of us in absolute terms, but,   everyone's   really   psyched and excited and,   quite an evangelist for the for the network.  

But going forward, like, if, let's say, 2 years out,   it's still mostly Bitcoiners talking about Bitcoin y things, then that would be,   problematic, I think, for the growth of the network.   And,   you know, let's kinda Pablo reminded me the other day, you know, like, we were chatting about about this, and I was making a point that,   you know, maybe it's completely fine to grow the network by,   you know, through Bitcoiners because in the next bull run, you know, bought it's it's likely that the Bitcoiner user base will is going to go up   by maybe, like, an order of magnitude.  

Therefore, bringing a lot more people,   potentially to Noster as well. And Pablo kinda cautioned me   against that,   kind of being our only strategy. That can't be our only strategy, I think.   He reminded me of what happened, on Mastodon   and how,   you know,  

[00:16:47] ODELL:

Yeah. But Mastodon is shit.  

[00:16:49] Miljan:

Yes. Yes. But there are some lessons to be learned there. Right? It didn't solve the key problem. Oh, yeah. Like, Mastodon had never had a chance to actually solve this. But,   there was a there was an attempt with that a lot of people   signed up for. So Yeah. I did too.   Yeah. Same. Right? So we were Bitcoin hackers. We were made by I actually dismissed Nastr early on because of my Mastodon experience.   Of how badly things went with Nastr. I was like, I, you know,  

[00:17:19] ODELL:

I I bought the bullshit on Mastodon. Like, Nastr is not going anywhere.  

[00:17:24] Miljan:

No. That was, like, you know, we tried multiple times to kinda get things going on bitcoinhackers.org,   and it would stick for a little while, and then people would leave go back to Twitter.   So we've   vastly surpassed   any of that type of those levels of adoption already on master. So that's great.   But what Pablo is saying is,   remember how the administrators   of all other Mastodon instances   block the Bitcoin or instance because we they thought we were insufferable.   They didn't wanna kinda relate to to us too much. And,   so so there is   there's some danger that,   Nasr becomes known as the Bitcoin or hang up, and and and that's it. Nah.  



[00:18:12] ODELL:

Which is  

[00:18:14] Miljan:

which we need to be mindful. You're humbly wrong.  

[00:18:19] ODELL:

I so so let me let me unpack it from my perspective. I'm a little bit biased,   because I only talk about Bitcoin and Noster.   And all my friends only talk about Bitcoin,   and some talk about Noster.   I,   we're in a unique situation.   Right? No no situation is the same. You know, there's variables. There's all different variables.   But where we are currently in today's Nasr adoption cycle,   and where we are currently in Bitcoin's adoption cycle,   and specifically, where are we in Bitcoin's bull cycles?   This is where you start to see,   the engagement on Twitter in in Bitcoin circles go through the roof. Right? Like, people disappear for 3 years, they come back.  

Now   my my appeal to to Bitcoiners   to use Nasr, but Bitcoiners listening to this right now and and hasn't flipped the switch and actually used Nasr.   My appeal to them is,   we're gonna have more fun   on Noster than you're gonna have fun on Twitter in in during this cycle. We're gonna have way more fun.   Our memes are unruggable.   We're able to meme without limits,   and we will have,   the best alpha.   Like, the the best content, like, if you want good content, if you want high signal quality content, it will be on Nasr for Bitcoin.   And I I I I think it can be very, very appealing for Bitcoiners.  

And then that is a separate I think that is a separate question   versus,   that that is a separate question versus mainstream users. I think these are 2 different categories.   One of the beauties of Nostr is that,   users have full control. It's a key tenant of Nostr. Right? And they should be able to build their own experience. If they don't wanna see me post in all caps about Bitcoin, they shouldn't have to see that.   They should be able to choose what they want to see. And and and and most people building on Noster have have   built with this principle in mind, which is which is key. Right? It's it's not an algo pushing it in front of your feed. With Bitcoin hackers,   Massillon has so many issues. Massillon has so many issues. Like, don't take too many lessons from that. It's hopeless. It's hopeless. As you said, we were cut off to begin with. And then the the last piece, I would say,   to Bitcoiners,   is we have   a freedom version.  

At the at the very minimum, we have a freedom version of Twitter that has Bitcoin integrated.   Nasr is so much more than that.   But but   but at the very minimum, Gnostr is is what most people thought they signed up for for with Twitter.   And there's there's something to be said about you have shitcoin projects. You have all these different projects. They try and   increase user growth   by   by providing financial incentives to new users to sign up. Noster doesn't have a centralized management that can do that. But what Noster could have   is a 100,000 ride or die Bitcoiners   that zap everything they fucking love   and zap it to kingdom come.  

You know? I've there's there's, like, there's a dozen of us on Nosta right now that are literally just zapping people generational wealth for wishing us good morning.   And and so you need the the the big corners come first.   The big corners get obsessed with it. They build on top of it. They support the ecosystem.   And then as these as these new users come in, as these pre corners come in, as these no corners come in, their first touch point with Bitcoin is one of these Bitcoiners sending them Bitcoin.  

[00:22:06] Miljan:

That works, I think.   I'm with you,   in your assessment that this the this becoming,   the social network for Bitcoiners,   that that part of the kind of user base is inevitable. Right? This this is going to happen for a number of reasons, for the reasons you   mentioned.   Another reason, I think, is the wallets.   The when we started working on our wallets and kind of started doing   the research around it, we realized how   much of a killer feature the   social graph is.   The whole social graph is basically your address book all all of a sudden. So like it or not, I think,   Bitcoiners are going to be,   you know, exposed to Nasr through,   you know, just   wallet software they use.  

And then it's only a better time before they can engage with the with the rest of us on the network as well, like, socially.   So that   that's,   that's pretty much a slam dunk, I think. That will happen, and it's going to be exciting to watch that happen over the next year.   Also, as the,   Bull begins to run,   and the The Bull is already big on its run. Yeah. Okay. I didn't notice that. I have been watching the price.  

[00:23:22] ODELL:

Oh, yeah. I'm sure you haven't. Yeah. Nobody has. I'm I'm in it for the tech.  

[00:23:26] Miljan:

Exactly.   So   yeah. So so then   this grows the Bitcoin user base itself.   So though all those things will happen. Like, I have no doubt.   And I but but beyond that, we need a bit of   strategy, a bit of an approach.   Honestly, we probably need to do a bit of work to onboard   probably Bitcoin adjacent   communities.   The Freedom Communities. Freedom Communities. That they will be   most receptive to the, value proposition of Nasr.   And I love your idea that, like, the the best way we use our stats on Noster is to just,   you know, welcome new people, especially content creators and show them how good it could be. It's the it's the joker meme. It's not about the money. It's about sending a message. Yes.  

[00:24:21] ODELL:

I love sending zaps.   It is fucking awesome.  

[00:24:26] Miljan:

It's magical. I think that we all kind of   universally agree,   that the the the act of sending some Zaps   some SaaS through a Zap   is just, like, feels so good. And I think almost everyone agrees. I think NVK,   for a while, was the only hold up personally.  

[00:24:45] ODELL:

And then He sent out he sent out a Nostra post saying, Gigi and Odell were right. I saw that. Yeah. Which I thought if anyone knows NVK for any kind of period of time, like, that is incredibly rare. And you can't delete Nostril posts. We have a cryptographically   signed message that NVK told me I was right. Yeah.   Which, honestly, I could probably just retire on that.  

[00:25:06] Miljan:

Yeah. You can,   have dinner on that forever.   Yeah. So   2 extremely rare things happened there.   Number 1, NVK was wrong.   That almost never happens.   Hope he's not listening. Don't wanna encourage you.   And number 2, he admitted it.   Uh-huh.  

[00:25:29] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, the second part is incredibly rare.   I, okay. So let's talk about primal 1.0 because   it's massive. It's a massive it's a massive it's a massive update.   What what why is it a massive update before I tell people why it is? In your word, like, why do why why is why is this a big deal? It's got the 1.0   number on it. It's supposed to be a big deal. Why is it a big deal?  

[00:26:02] Miljan:

Yes. So first of all, to be specific, we're talking about our iOS,   release.   Our Android release is still a few weeks out, so so we're still in kind of preview on on Android.   But our, iOS 1 point o re release kind of puts   the the entire vision together for for the initial,   the release of of primal,   where we integrated,   Lightning Wallet with the social media client   in as seamless of a way as we could.   And,   the,   result is more valuable than the sum of its parts, I think.   I was,   very keen to see what happens when you integrate,   the centralized social media client, 1 built to a master,   with a lightning wallet within the same app.  

And the the outcome is that   both the wallet and the social media client   get better.   And we're by no means we've by no means exhausted the possibilities here. This is just the very first   kind of iteration where all these things kind of fit together,   where number 1, users get can get seamlessly onboarded   onto Nasr and Bitcoin.   And,   number 2, their user experience for   sending micropayments   or   zapping,   other users or their notes is very seamless,   as well as,   the ability to acquire Sats,   small small amounts of Sats, and we can get into the details there, is also as seamless as any iOS user has ever experienced.   So what we've accomplished with this release is we've, created a product that you that could be used to onboard anyone to an Aster easily   and to onboard them in in a custodial way, but regardless   also of the Bitcoin and Lightning Network easily,   without any friction.  

So I think what we're going to get if we're successful in in terms of, signing up a lot of users, we're going to get an army of new users who've never,   experienced,   Monster nor Bitcoin   be able to participate in this ecosystem   and,   help grow it.  

[00:28:26] ODELL:

Fuck. Yeah. So, I mean,   the the the context of this is is that you and Primal   have been a bit of of a pariah in the Nasr developer community. A bit because no. I mean, the Nasr development community is,   an incredibly welcome   welcoming community for the overwhelming   the overwhelming part. Right?   It's an incredibly welcoming community. People are very nice. People wanna see Nasr grow. Everyone knows it's early.   But at the same time,   I think there has been   some   questions   in terms of primal strategy   around some of the choices that that that you guys have made in terms of trade offs. Right? And that started at the very core from, like, the base of of how primal was designed with this caching server in mind,   where you have a caching server that is fully false. If if people listen to our last episode with with Milan,   it was with, it it was right when everything got false.  

So the full primal stack is completely open source. Anyone can fork it. Anyone can moderate,   modify it, distribute it, do whatever the hell they want with it, including the caching server. They can run their own caching server.   But this idea of a caching server in the first place,   was   is is by some peoples   is seen as against the Noster core principles   of connecting directly to relays without a centralized server in between.   But I will speak for you. Primal made that decision because,   ultimately, all NOS users have the choice of which clients they wanna use and which tools they wanna use. They have many different options. They're gonna be able to move between different tools at will whenever they wanna do, and it doesn't make sense for every client to serve the same purpose.   And to me, primal has always been this this client that that sits there,   ready for the mainstream.  

Right? And that that is built for the mainstream, built for the person that's addicted to Twitter and TikTok,   and and and maybe isn't even here for for freedom or censorship resistance, but they don't realize they're here for that even though most people do care about freedom even if they don't realize it.   And they just want a more performant social media. They want, you know I I think you said last last time we spoke,   you definitely told talked about it to me privately.   Like, Primal has failed if it's not faster than Twitter.   It's not even, you know, your notes can't get rugged. It's it should load quicker. Everything should be quicker and faster and better.  

And then, also, you get freedom on top. And the decision here in terms of   packaging a custodial wallet that's   I guess we'll talk about the specifics. But, like, packaging a custodial wallet that is that is   powered by strike, that has light KYC,   that a user can go from,   no Bitcoin to Bitcoin in a function lightning wallet with a lightning address,   in in less than 5 minutes,   and be onboarded to Nasr,   is part of this   long term vision. Right? This vision that, you know, maybe   maybe some people will come in and they'll using Primal first, and then they'll move on to other clients. Obviously, people will still stay with Primal, but Primal being this   the ideal way to onboard someone. Like, me, personally,   I think we're very close to the point where I don't have to explain what Nostra is or explain all these different nuances. I just say, go download Primal,   and then   on either app store, whichever app store you use, because everyone's on mobile for the most part,   even though I love using Primal on desktop,   and go download that. And then when they've used Nostr for 4 months, 5 months, 6 months, if they wanna play around with all these other tools or all these other clients, then they can go play around with that. And they don't need permission to do that.  



[00:32:23] Miljan:

There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. I kinda just went for it. Let's dive in. I think that's a good overall kind of,   overview.   So to back up, as I said previously,   at Primal, we optimize for UX.   So we make trade offs   to make the,   user experience as good as it could possibly be.   At Primal, we build apps,   and we run services for Nast.   This is unique currently   in the whole space. Usually, you see, either projects,   you know, they either build apps and then connect directly directly to Relays,   or they build services like indexing services and so forth, media hosting services, etcetera.   We decided because we want to optimize for UX and we want to make UX as good as it could possibly be, we decided to do both. So we're we build,   client applications, iOS, Android, web,   and we run services. We run an indexing service, caching service, media service, classification   service.  

Now   running services   introduces   centralizing   factors into the network.   That's a given. That's actually that's definitely true.   And we're very mindful   about,   our role in the ecosystem and about how our actions might,   have some, effects on the network.   When you   so   so one way to look at it is to maybe use the indexing service as an example.   You can say,   indexing service is a good example because it provides search. Right? And search is a universally   useful feature. Everyone agrees that it's useful.   So if you're an master client developer,   when it comes to search, you have 3 options,   like global search of the master network. You can,   number 1,   not support search   because it introduces centralizing factors to the network.  

Number 2, you can build your own indexing service,   stand up and run it   for your client.   Or number 3, you can use someone else's   indexing service.   Those are your options.   And we have, currently, we have clients, Noster clients, in each of these three categories.   I would argue that the third category is the most dangerous one.   What if we have a lot of clients   that use a third party,   indexing service, especially if it's an old closed source serve service.   That, in my opinion,   introduces the highest amount of risk centralization risk to the network.   So what we've what we've decided to do is we've built our own indexing service,   and we open sourced it so that others can,   stand up their own instances   of the same service,   therefore,   decentralizing   this,   this particular feature.  

And we're delighted to see that there are number of,   examples of Nasser projects who are standing up this indexing service, that's standing up our caching service, and actually  

[00:35:45] ODELL:

using it for their projects. The caching service, the indexing service is 1 and the same. You're using 2 different words for the same thing.  

[00:35:53] Miljan:

They are the same piece of software currently. So when you when you   you you kind of deploy,   both of these things at the same time, but they're functionally 2 different things. Indexing service is something that,   indexes the entire history, like, because you're, like, a full text searchable master notes. Caching service is something different. It kind of,   it's there to make the most popular content, usually the latest content,   extremely   readily available. So so the the requests that are asking for the latest feed or the latest,   notes,   they will execute extremely quickly. So it's more like an acceleration service. But you're right. In our software stack, these 2 are bundled at the moment. But, logically, they're kind of different.  

So,   so this is kind of the more nuanced take   at what's actually going on here and the controversy around the caching service and so forth.   Another   aspect that I wanna address is also,   the necessity to use the caching service or the indexing service by the primal clients.   We're kind of   on a on a path to get to the point where,   this is   just one of the features that our clients support, but they also are able to   work directly with the relays in terms of reading the content. Oh, that's great. From from day 1,   our clients are connecting to your defined,   relay set for publishing. So our caching service has nothing to do with publishing. All   all primal clients from day 1 have been publishing directly to the relays as defined by the user.  

So that's kind of, hopefully, a more nuanced,   kind of take on why we did things the way we did. But we're like, as I said,   we are prioritizing   UX.   We're deciding to build useful features for users,   and our solve   for,   centralization   risk is to open source everything under the MIT license.  

[00:37:54] ODELL:

Fuck. Yeah.   Yeah. I mean, on that note, we have,   Tony Georgio from Uni Wallet in the live Nostra chat. Hey, Tony.   And,   they're running, the indexing service, caching service, their own version. They're they're running   their own instance of it. So, technically, you can connect any primary user can go and connect to theirs,   but that's what they use for the Noster integrations   on mutiny. Right? That's what they use for your contact book and stuff like that.  

[00:38:24] Miljan:

Correct. That's what they're doing. And, yes, their their service is publicly accessible. I don't know to which extent they wanna publicize it, but,   there are a few projects that are standing up caching services that, primal users can connect to. And  

[00:38:39] ODELL:

we're implementing this feature where you can connect to multiple caching services just like Yeah. I like that idea. I think we talked about it the last conversation. Like, the idea of having fall over caching services or the caching services keeping each other honest or you even random like, your client automatically checking your relays every once in a while to just make sure that the caching service isn't lying to you.  

[00:38:59] Miljan:

All of that's in the works. And I think,   there's a whole other kind of   subject area of scaling   that we don't really   talk about enough, I think, when it comes to on Oster scaling. Currently, with the user numbers we have, we're okay with the current network   network topology.   But the fact is that the top   top dozen relays are handling all the traffic.   And if we were to get a massive influx of new users, if we were to get millions of new users,   that will be problematic.   And I have no doubt that   the the network will kind of figure it out   organically.  

Right? Whatever   When there's pain, we'll we'll figure it out. The path of most pain.   Yeah. Exactly. So so there there isn't anything fundamentally   wrong there.   But, this is some I I think that these kind of caching nodes   can play a really important role in   in scaling this to kind of global scale.   And then there's, like, the long tail content. So let's say you're you're somebody who,   is   rejected by most big relays.   You know, they don't want to publish your content,   and you only have resources to run a small, low powered relay.   Using the caching approach,   you can you know, as long as your   relay is visible to the caching service,  

[00:40:27] ODELL:

it will Yeah. But you're just moving the scaling concern to the caching service instead. Yes. So this is kinda long tail, probably, and stuff like that. But, like, for instance, like, jb55   woke up one morning, and instead of going to therapy, he just nuked his whole relay.   The caching service kept copy of all those notes.  

[00:40:47] Miljan:

Yeah. Of course.   We have copies of all of those notes. We have the full history since we started   collecting that. So so I think we started   collecting in February,   and at that point, the relays were,   serving content from previous few months. So we have   we have the archive,   of all the all those notes.   But, I didn't follow the details of what happened with,   JB's nuking. I don't think anything,   kind of catastrophic   happened there because  

[00:41:22] ODELL:

other relays also had copies of those numbers. Everyone just rebroadcast and keeps copies on. Yeah. So I I I actually think there is a,   I don't have proof of it.   It's mostly just in my head.   But I think   I and I don't think there's any way to objectively prove it.   But I think that anyone of real significance,   anyone who has a a significant voice   on Noster,   their notes   are are, in effect, will never be lost. They will never be deleted because relays have a a massive incentive to hold on to them and be one of the relays that holds on to them. And that goes in both directions. Even if, like, if you disagree with the person, if if they have any kind of real weight   or influence or something, you wanna keep a record of it. I did this on Twitter for 3 years. I was tweet stamping every single,   Bitcoin denier so that we could prove later on when they deleted their tweets,   that they were wrong. Because it's important   to grandstand on people when they're wrong.  

And I think, like, the same kind of phenomenon happens on Noster. And then also and this is a weird thing, like, once again,   hard to objectively prove.   If you're a smaller account and you're a new account and you're just trying to find your voice, it's unlikely you'll be censored by a large amount of relays. So it's like when you get to the point where you might start getting censored by relays, there's a way stronger incentive for other relays to actually archive your notes.   And   there's no way for me to prove that without just living it, but I think that's what's gonna happen.  

[00:43:04] Miljan:

I agree. The the incentives do line up like that.  

[00:43:10] ODELL:

We had a great question   from someone in the comments.   I think it was the Daniel,   asking   about the custodial wallet and if there are limits.   My understanding is, there's a maximum limit of a 1000000 sats in the custodial wallet to encourage people to self custody. Am I correct?  

[00:43:33] Miljan:

That's correct. So   it was a it was a difficult choice to to kind of,   kind of decide one way or the or the other, whether we're going to go custodial or non custodial for the for the built in wallet.   And we always go back to our   guiding star, which is UX. So primal optimizes   for best possible UX,   which   which   and after careful analysis of of the tech available,   we decided to go take the custodial route.   However,   as Bitcoiners,   we,   we we're not super keen on custodial solutions,   and we think they need to be used carefully   and and kind of,   spare sparingly.  

So   what we decided is to build,   a wallet which is used for,   kind of a transactional wallet that's ideal,   for   holding and transacting with very small amounts,   so that,   we get the top notch UX for onboarding and kind of,   using the wallet reliably.   But,   to minimize the amount of KYC information we need to collect,   by law,   as well as to encourage people to self custody any meaningful amounts,   we have put the maximum wallet balance,  

[00:45:02] ODELL:

at 1,000,000 sets. So that's What the KYC is email   plus name plus  

[00:45:09] Miljan:

m pub? Email plus name currently.  

[00:45:11] ODELL:

Yeah.   And you know the MPOD, obviously. Of course. We know the MPOD. Yes. But that you said something interesting on Nastr. The the the actual if you pay via Apple Pay, you don't get the payment information.  

[00:45:23] Miljan:

We don't. It's just connected. No iOS developer gets payment info of any anyone, any one of their users. Know if Android developers get payment info?  

[00:45:35] ODELL:

We're kind of in the middle of reviewing trying to look that up, and I couldn't find   I couldn't find the correct answer.   Wanted to pay for something that I haven't paid for.  

[00:45:45] Miljan:

Honestly, I don't know the the exact answer, so sorry about that. But I would doubt that they do. There's no good reason to provide that information to developers,   if if you're Apple or Google.  

[00:45:58] ODELL:

And then the other thing here,   the, like, the quiet part out loud,   because I doubt they're gonna listen to, like,   46 minutes into seal dispatch.   The quiet part out loud is that Apple has taken a very aggressive stance against   Zaps in in noster apps, and they they did it to Domus, and and,   jb 55 had to remove Zaps,   from there. And this is a a,   compelling middle ground in the meantime,   where where Apple is getting 30%. If you buy if you buy Sats through the wallet, Apple takes their usual 30% cut of in app purchases,   but you can also load the wallet outside of   that. What's that? Exactly.  



[00:46:44] Miljan:

So the moment you activate the wallet, the receive function works. You can send yourself your own Sats that you got elsewhere.   You can receive Zaps without any friction.   But if you   don't own any Sats   and if you are not famous enough to receive Zaps, but just by being and posting on the Oscars Just respond good morning to me and you'll get some  

[00:47:07] ODELL:

stats. You don't have to be famous.  

[00:47:09] Miljan:

People need to know. Yeah.   But for those who would like to join the fun   without having any exposure to SaaS previously, they can use an in app purchase to,   to acquire some SaaS. Now we're looking at 15%   Apple tax in US and Canada   or 30%   elsewhere.   So this is these are not cheap stats,  

[00:47:32] ODELL:

and this is Oh, it's only 15 and it's so sad that I'm like, oh, it's only 15.  

[00:47:37] Miljan:

It's a good thing.   Yeah. US and Canada. Like, Apple sets the rules, basically. We just we just follow them there. But, essentially,   we also wanted to make sure that people don't spend too much money on these   SaaS, which is why we're offering,   you know,   perch in app purchases   in $5 increments.   Okay. And we're maxing it out at $50 per day. So people can't accidentally,   like, overpay for Sats,  

[00:48:08] ODELL:

you know, in any kind of meaningful You're giving them a nice little taste.  

[00:48:12] Miljan:

Exactly. We're giving you know, you can get, like, or order of magnitude 10000 SATs,   for $5.  

[00:48:19] ODELL:

Well, probably It's fucking great. And then you just zap to heart's content. And then you can see what it feels like to zap people. And more important, you can receive without going outside of the app. You don't have to deal with any of that. Exactly.   Like, the amount of people that wish me good morning and don't have a lightning address set up, like, they're leaving SaaS on   the table. Yeah. Now they get SaaS.  

[00:48:39] Miljan:

Yes.   So I think   this whole product   is our attempt to make Nostra and Bitcoin   appealing to people who are just looking at these things for the first time.  

[00:48:54] ODELL:

Yeah. Someone   that their name hasn't,   I guess ZapStream is having some issues. I know I, was jokingly told pseudo Carlos to zap again, but we have gotten some zaps.   But someone who's just an n pub, and I don't know who it is, mentions, like, Duolingo sells a shitcoin that has no market value and that you just you can't even transfer, really.   And all these apps do. Right? So it's just, you know, it it's just trade offs all the way down.   And,   yeah. It's just it's it's a nice easy low friction way for people to to get on board to Nasr and to Bitcoin,   without really thinking too much about it.  



[00:49:35] Miljan:

Yeah. It's trade offs all the way down. Absolutely. It's trade offs everywhere   here as we we, as Bitcoiners, we know, like, everything is about trade offs. But in this particular case on on iOS,   it's really the choice between not having zaps,   not supporting Zaps within the app,   or,   providing no solution like we just did.  

[00:49:58] ODELL:

We have, like, an AI bot that's, like, running wild in the comments right now.   I don't think I can block him. I think he's he has freedom to post here. I don't I don't see a way for me to block him. So   that's the power of Nostr.   And AI bot might enter your chat. Is is there no mute option, on a I think it's, like, on an it's on an individual basis. You guys have to go practice personal responsibility   and remove him,   mute him on a personal basis. Yes.  

[00:50:32] Miljan:

It'd be interesting if you, as as the administrator, could,   mute that particular one. But, anyway, I don't know enough about how ZapStream works.  

[00:50:41] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure   Kieran could add that feature.   Okay. I just muted him.   He's not a person,   so I don't feel too bad. Okay. It looks like it removed.   I can mute on screen. Thank you, Carlos. Ride or die free, Carlos, to the rescue. Let's go. And the cyborg has been destroyed.   Look at that. Censorship at its finest.   I'm the captain now.   I I got distracted. I don't even know what we were talking about.  

[00:51:17] Miljan:

Oh, just zaps in the App Store. This is all great. Zaps are awesome.  

[00:51:21] ODELL:

So now people can just search Primal in the iPhone App Store. It's not test flight or anything, and they they're just good to go. Search for Primal.  

[00:51:28] Miljan:

You know, you get the first result there, and install the app and get onboarded.  

[00:51:33] ODELL:

This is fucking massive.  

[00:51:35] Miljan:

I think so. In a few weeks, we'll be there with Android as well,   and kind of we'll tidy up our web app, kind of raise it another notch, I think. And   then I'd be comfortable calling the whole stack 1.0.   So I think by end of year,   we we should be there.  

[00:51:53] ODELL:

Okay. So I'm getting I one of my one of the things I love about Nostra, by the way,   is sometimes development happens live in the dispatch stream.   Other times, just knowledge transfer happens. So everyone else in their own version of zap.stream can still see the bot's replies. It's just not on the live stream anymore.  

[00:52:11] Miljan:

Okay. Well, that's something.  

[00:52:13] ODELL:

That's good. I'm I'm glad I didn't fully censor the AI and that that he can still spam everybody else.   Yeah. I'm just excited that I can just tell people to download Primal, and I I don't have to explain what Nostra is. Like, if if if you have to do that part, you've already we've already lost the lost the plot. Like, we didn't have no shot.   They don't they don't need to know how it works.   They can learn afterwards   how it works,   but you you don't you shouldn't have to do, like, a half an hour conversation on this. And same with Bitcoin, by the way.   Like   like, the all these videos, all these tutorials, all this they're for power users, and they should be for power users. But if you need to give a 2 hour tutorial   or 45 minutes of context on why something matters,   you're just not gonna get adoption.  



[00:53:00] Miljan:

Yeah. Absolutely.   Absolutely.   In in fact, I think   for for those users who are discovering   Nostra for the first time like that,   zaps are the only meaningful difference from the rest of the social media out there.   I mean, censorship besides censorship resistance. Censorship resistance is is the kind of the core, you know, the foundation of Nasr that we get excited   about. But in terms of the,   general population out there,   I would say probably   free thinking content creators also get excited about that. So so that's   that's important.  

But in terms of the masses, in terms of the majority of the people out there, unfortunately, they don't care.   But they will see something   new, interesting, shiny,   and,   actually,   truly novel,   when it comes to being able to send these Zaps, these micropayments,   to other users and and kind of reward content and and   the   the publishers   and also receive   zaps   instead of likes. I think   I think that's   massive,   for kind of global adoption.  

[00:54:18] ODELL:

So can I have a feature request for primal while we're on air?   Sure. When I press the Zap button, can you just auto like the post too?   You could save me half my clicks every good morning post because I I have to press like and   and zap.   Okay. But if I'm zapping, of course, I like the post.  

[00:54:39] Miljan:

Right.  

[00:54:40] ODELL:

Do likes matter that in that case? I think likes don't matter. Okay. I mean, we show them. Right?  

[00:54:46] Miljan:

We do show them. And, like, there was, like, a big debate within Primal   in early days when we were considering to not even have the like button.   And,   I I lost that debate.   I wanted to remove the like button Zaps only?   Zaps only. Exactly. And then I realized later, actually, I was wrong.   I was People are used to it. You know? Excuse me? People are used to it. People are used to it, and it might come off too elitist. If you can't, you know, just like something, why do you have to have Satoshis and send them? So like, no. We'll show lightly instead.   We'll give them the option.  

As for your feature request,   yeah. I think it makes sense to have that option. You can put in more thing. Careful about adding more settings to the app because   more settings.   Excuse me?  

[00:55:36] ODELL:

I said just add more settings.  

[00:55:39] Miljan:

Because every setting kind   of increases the the the kind of testing tree that you need to cover. But Yeah. I know. That's true.  

[00:55:47] ODELL:

Interesting idea. We'll we'll mull it over. Okay. Well, while we're on future requests,   it'd be nice if you could just auto convert all notes to   all caps.   Like, if I had that in settings, if I can just switch all notes to all caps, and then, like, the haters can also switch all notes to lowercase if they want. You can give a double setting there, and then you can test all the different variables every time you ship a new release on that too. You know, Matt, when Dorsey asks for features, he usually zaps me a 100,000 stats. Okay. I noted.   I I I give you I'll give you a 100,001   sat   up top of him  

[00:56:25] Miljan:

in all caps. How magical is that by the way? Like What?   Well, the whole the way this whole,   network is being built in the open.  

[00:56:34] ODELL:

It's so fucking awesome.  

[00:56:36] Miljan:

Yeah. There is this thread from,   quite a few months ago. We were yeah. We had launched the preview of our web app and the caching service,   and,   you know, but it was early days.   And Dorsey had posted, okay. You know?   No. I think it was NVK who posted,   oh, you know,   mobile experience is really suffering   on the on on,   you know, on Aster.   And then Dorsey replied,   caching. We need to kinda deploy more caching. And,   Rodolfo goes,   okay, Miriam. What? He tags me. When open source and caching service.  

[00:57:18] ODELL:

And I was like, what's that? I saw that live. I witnessed that live as it was happening.  

[00:57:23] Miljan:

Yeah. And I was like, well, soon we'll be ready. And they're like, no. That's not good enough. And then   a couple weeks later, we pulled it off. We we got it to a state where, actually, it could be used by others, and we open sourced it. And then, like, Dorsey,   like, zaps me a 100,000 sats. Just look at that thread.   That's how Nostra is being developed,   and compare that to all the blue skies of the world, which is just hopeless.  

[00:57:51] ODELL:

Yeah.   I do think that   I I I I do think that people do   I mean, I'm I'm going back to the previous topic. I do I do think people   dismiss the importance of censorship resistance, and it's not the the words the word censorship resistance isn't what people care about, but they do care about censorship resistance. They don't realize they care about censorship resistance. And I I think,   similar to Bitcoin,   in a in a world where in a world where PayPal never surveils you or censors you,   and the dollar isn't debased,   like, Bitcoin isn't as useful to people. There's not as much demand for people. And in a world where   Elon accomplishes everything he's he's he's telling people he's gonna accomplish, and you're gonna have a completely free speech centralized   platform,   where he never censors people or   deboost you in the algo or does any kind of shady shit,   because he's   a god among men and one of the only men in the world who can't be corrupted by   by by power and people pressuring him,   then Noster is less useful to people, and and it will be less adopted. But, like, that will not happen.  

And we are entering an election cycle in America.   Obviously, my perspective is American focused.   It's gonna be Elon's first election cycle as supreme dictator of Twitter,   and people will start to realize that you can get rugged on social media very easily. Just like people over time have realized PayPal, banks, whatever, trusted third parties, they will rug you.   And a lot of times these companies don't want to rug you. They have no choice. They get pressured behind the scenes, or they have a choice. They can shut down the business.   And it doesn't have to be   you know, like, what is the thing that Elon said in the begin like,   when he first acquired Twitter, like, one of the first things he did was he added the view counts.  

And the reason he added the view counts, which, by the way, feature request, you should add view counts,   The the reason he added the view counts is because the overwhelming majority of users are lurkers.   They consume content. They do not post.   Those people aren't gonna get censored.   But if they follow Alex Jones and Alex Jones gets deplatformed and Alex Jones moves to Noster,   then they will move to Noster,   and they will be doing it for freedom, but they will have no fucking idea that they're doing it for freedom. They are just downloading the primal app because he told them on the fucking show that they should buy his supplements and they should download the primal app, and then he moves over it.   You know? And and and at the core there, the value prop is freedom. It is censorship resistance, but they don't even fucking realize it.  

And that's fine. I agree.  

[01:00:32] Miljan:

I agree. I mean,   there's a difference between,   saying, I promise I won't answer you, and   not being able to answer you. And that's a simple,   message that we can   make, you know, simple point that we can make   to content creators and probably the majority of the users.   But it will only resonate   once they see,   actual problems out there with with platforms which are inevitable.   That they will happen. They're,  

[01:01:03] ODELL:

like I guess my point is my point is is, like,   I agree   that   we won't sell most people on the narrative of freedom.   But when we're thinking about it internally, anyone who's building on, when we're thinking about it internally,   like, that, I believe, is the core to the adoption. Like, I think that is the core base of the adoption,   even if it's not the core base of the messaging.  

[01:01:32] Miljan:

Right. And it could be the core base of the messaging to content creators   who are really the types of people But not to their audience.  

[01:01:39] ODELL:

Right.   Right. Right? There's, like, 2 pieces for the content creators. Is I guess there's 3 pieces.   You can't get rugged.   You can receive freedom money without any middlemen.   And then the third,   which is gonna become highly relevant, which I think people are sleeping on, is that all of these centralized platforms   are closing their walls because they don't want AI to train on it.   And so that means, like, if you have one link that you wanna share   to your audience   and and you don't know if they have in a Twitter account and if they maybe they haven't KYC yet for Twitter because we're 2 years down the line. You have to KYC to use Twitter. Or they don't have a TikTok account or they don't have an Instagram account or they don't have a Reddit account or they don't have a Facebook account, they can't click the link and see what's going on in there.   But if they don't have an Nasr account, it doesn't matter. They can still click the the primal.net   link or the n jump link or whatever,   and see that content.  

And I think   that those three aspects are highly, highly valuable to   to the content creator, influencer class, whatever,   celebrity, niche celebrity,   fake celebrity, micro celebrity,   whatever terms we're using.  

[01:02:49] Miljan:

I agree. That's a stark difference between an Oster and all of these other closed platforms. The the what you just outlined. The ability to see content, to to consume content without   having to be logged in or or,   onboarded.  

[01:03:05] ODELL:

It's funny because, like, I've been very outspoken about   I I I don't think people should just be blindly reposting things from Twitter to Nostr   or from TikTok to Nostr or whatever.   They should treat Nostr as a first class citizen.   But my my thesis   actually comes down to that the reverse is true. Like, a lot of these influencers that use 7 different social media platforms, their primary one will be Nostr,   and then they will,   just blindly repost all this other shit.   Like, Noster's the core.  

[01:03:43] Miljan:

Yeah.   You can almost imagine some like, a nice toolset for these content creators to actually  

[01:03:50] ODELL:

Are you teasing something?  

[01:03:52] Miljan:

No, man. We're we have our hands full. Let's ship 1 point o. How about that?  

[01:03:58] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, the the second half of 1 point o. Right? Exactly.  

[01:04:02] Miljan:

You know, Android needs to go out, and the web app needs a a few more   tweaks.  

[01:04:09] ODELL:

Awesome.   Let me just   dispatch   is   audience funded. We do not have ads or sponsors.   We   solely rely on donations from our audience. So thank you, Freaks, for continuing to supporting the show.   You can go to sill dispatch.com   for all our links. Sill dispatch.com/   donate to climb the leaderboard,   or you can donate through podcasting 2 point o apps,   such as Fountain,   and Breeze Wallet,   and there's many others.   The top four comments we have gotten the top four boost we have gotten in podcasting 2.0   from last episode, which was with coin OS on circular economies   was ride or die freak Eric 99 with 50,000 stats saying stay on, we'll stack stats. We have at come rock advice.  

It's such good advice.   Thank you for mentioning that.   We have adcomrocket   with 42,000   69 sat saying, when on air cork pop Odell, also dark mode everything.   It is coming.   The cork pops will be back. The caps are back.   We're gonna   we're gonna run it back like last cycle, but we're gonna go even harder this cycle because this cycle is gonna be much, much   fucking harder.   And then we have at Bitcoin Bay with 21,012   sat saying awesome convo. More attention needs to be given to the local meetup. We can effectively   mobilize meetups across the world. A lot of change can happen quick.  

Shout out to the Bitcoiners   in Tampa. And then we have at Bitcoin Rocks,   the 21,000 sat saying stay humble and spend your sats. Also great advice.   So thank you, Freaks, for supporting the show. Supporting through podcasting 2.0 is extra special because   it helps us climb the podcasting 2 point o leaderboards with help with discovery and whatnot.   But I know   I know stats are scarce.   So if you wanna support the show, you can also just share it with your friends and family. We're on every platform, any podcasting app. Just search the dispatch.   And then, obviously, huge shout out to the freaks in our live chat,   who not only participate and make the show incredibly unique, because you guys are all kind of the host with me,   but you also are able to zap directly through zap.stream   by going to syllabuspatch.com/stream.  

So thank you,   to the rider die freaks who join us in the live chat all the time.   So that was my audience supported mid role.   Do you have anything else you'd like to chat about? I I mean, I think this has been a great conversation.   I want I Milan, I want you to be a returning guest as we do,   as Noster takes over the world.   We should just as this bull market rips and Bitcoin goes fucking crazy and Noster adoption goes fucking crazy, I just wanna constantly do touch bases with you. Short, nice, sweet touch bases like this. Let's do it.   Awesome.  

So do you have any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap?  

[01:07:08] Miljan:

Yeah. Mandibles.   Mandibles and the Bitcoin standard. Let's fucking go. Great advice. Actually, I just got into it recently. I'm I'm kinda 2 quarters through the book. That was a great,   great,   great recommendation.   Excellent.  

[01:07:23] ODELL:

Few understand.   Yeah. I mean, if you don't read the book, you're just gonna have to live through it. So it's the choice is yours.  

[01:07:31] Miljan:

It's kind of scary,   tragic,   and hilarious   at the same time. She she did a really good job, I find. Did you listen to the dispatch I did with her?   Yes. I did.  

[01:07:41] ODELL:

Oh, so you have a little bit of spoilers.  

[01:07:44] Miljan:

You did not most people. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I I forgot about the details, like, of the book, but back from the dispatch. But,   yeah, it was all novel for me. I'm not gonna spoil anything for anyone here, but she did a really good job. And and, actually,   it it's scary, tragic, and hilarious ex is exactly how I remember   hyperinflation in Serbia back in the nineties.  

[01:08:07] ODELL:

There you go.   And you lived through it.  

[01:08:10] Miljan:

Yeah. I did, and it was wild. And she nailed so many details well.   So, anyway,  

[01:08:17] ODELL:

Well, I'm I'm pretty sure she just I didn't put her on the spot when she came so we're talking about Lionel Shriver, who's the author of Mandibles, who came on dispatch.   And I didn't put her on the spot, but I'm pretty sure she basically just read When Money Dies   and then made a fictional book set of New York on it, which when money dies is,   a very boring,   long read,   that everyone should consider reading about,   Germany hyperinflation,   like, real world events, like, how it went down.  

[01:08:49] Miljan:

When money dies is excellent, and I didn't find it boring at all, actually.   Well, you lived through it too. So you, like Because, like, there there were so, like,   so many parallels. Like, when when money dies, when money stops working,   the society disintegrates in a specific kind of way, in a very, like,   peculiar kind of way.   And there are so many details   that go off.   And,   it's it's interesting to kind of see books like this that nail every one of these details to such level of accuracy.  

[01:09:25] ODELL:

Yeah. I mean, I when I when I call it boring, I mean,   because it's, like, because it's so accurate. Like, it's it's just so brutal. It's just brutal and long. It's mundane. Like, so so it But that's how hyperinflation is. Right? It just grinds people down.  

[01:09:41] Miljan:

How but how do lives of ordinary Germans, ordinary Americans, whatever, Serbians,   get affected on a day to day basis, like, through a thousand little details.   So yeah.  

[01:09:54] ODELL:

Someone's asking in the comments, it was episode 92,   with Lionel, but I encourage people to read listen to it after they read the book.   Even though it sounds like maybe because the main thing she got wrong is she wrote it in 2015.   She thought Bitcoin failed. Bitcoin has, like, one sentence. Yeah. And she's like, remember what happened to Bitcoin? And then it's completely dismissed. Yeah. So if you're a non Bitcoiner and you read the book,   it's very depressing. But if you're a Bitcoiner and you read the book, you realize there's still hope because Bitcoin exists.   Yeah. So it it it the perspective of a non Bitcoiner reading it versus a Bitcoiner reading it is a completely different perspective. And then when you listen to the conversation I had with her,   I think it it it it it it it empowers the book even more. Like, it it changes the perception of the book even more,   because she isn't dismissive of Bitcoin at this point. She just was at that point. And now the freaks donated her over a coin.  

Amazing. I think she's up, like, $20,000   on it. I think I think I recorded at, like, 18 k, 19 k, something like that. She's probably feeling pretty bullish right now.  

[01:11:00] Miljan:

Who's your favorite character in the book, Matt?  

[01:11:04] ODELL:

I I mean, willing is is who everyone wants to be. Right?  

[01:11:09] Miljan:

For me, it's Lowell.  

[01:11:11] ODELL:

Really?  

[01:11:12] Miljan:

Yeah.   Like, I'm not gonna give anything away, but he's, like, an economics professor, like a Fiat economist Yeah.   Who just gets wrecked repeatedly  

[01:11:21] ODELL:

over and over. Yeah. He's like Schiff.  

[01:11:24] Miljan:

Or not Schiff. Schiff Schiff is is is he's like, who's the guy at the fax machine? Krugman. He's like Krugman. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. He's, like, so wrong about it and continues to kind of drive, you know, in the the the same way and continues getting punched in the face by  

[01:11:51] ODELL:

Biggest negative of Noster is that the NoCoiner Bitcoin deniers aren't on on Noster, so we can't troll them, but   I'm willing to sacrifice that. Imagine the time, Matt, a few years out when we actually onboard everyone. So we we get that pleasure as well. We can dunk on those guys because they'll have to move They have to join they're gonna have no choice but to join Nasr and play by our rules. Yeah. And they can't delete any post. They're not gonna be able to block us. Like, they're they're gonna have to   play by our rules.  

I think that's a perfect closing statement right there. Fuck. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you, Milan. Thanks for joining us.  

[01:12:29] Miljan:

My pleasure.  

[01:12:31] ODELL:

Thanks, Freaks. Thanks for joining us as well. And,   stay smart out there. Don't get too crazy.   We will be back. Dispatch will be back on Monday. Monday? Yeah. Monday, same time,   with John from Futurebit,   who makes a miner that is designed for home use.   So it should be a really interesting conversation, especially with mining censorship increasing.   So come join us for that. Sil dispatch.com/stream,   and stay humble. Appreciate   y'all. Peace.