Citadel Dispatch

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EPISODE: 111
BLOCK: 807660
PRICE: 3833 sats per dollar
TOPICS: circular economies, grassroots adoption, "stable coins"

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(00:02:09) Circular economies and the reality of building bitcoin products

(00:05:11) Merchant demand for bitcoin payments

(00:09:33) The importance of merchants accepting bitcoin

(00:34:41) Discussion about the stability of fiat coins and the risk of centralization

(00:45:22) The potential value of stable solutions on bitcoin and reducing the risk of Tether failure

(00:53:21) The scarcity of bitcoin and the importance of considering opportunity cost

[00:00:31] ODELL:

Happy Bitcoin Thursday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, for another Citadel Dispatch,   the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.   I am ninja launching a dispatch today live from the park.   We are currently hosting our 1st ever Global Bitcoin Summit in partnership with the Human Rights Foundation, and we have participants   from over 55 countries,   here with us.   So with all that said,   it means we have a very tight schedule,   and it means that I am going to try and get hidden here and just ninja launch live   whenever possible.  

So sorry for the lack of notice, but I would say that we already have 2 people in the live chat, CB Coop and BTC Pens,   which is impressive considering I gave people 5 minutes notice on Noster.   I am joined here by 2   2 first time podcast guests ever.   The 1st podcast ever is is officially still dispatched. We have Skyler from FETI. How's it going, Skyler? It's going well. Thanks for having me. Skyler, your official title there is  

[00:01:41] Skyler:

Head of design. Head of design. And he also designed,  

[00:01:45] ODELL:

the dope swag and logo of Global Bitcoin Summit.   And then we have John Arnold,   who works with me at 10:31. How's it going, John? Doing well. Long time listener, First time caller. Glad to be here. Let's fucking go.   As always now, guys, we do have the Nostril live chat shown on screen. You can get to that by going to sidildispatch.com/stream.   So what do you wanna talk about, guys? I know we were talking about circular economies.  

[00:02:14] Skyler:

Yeah. I mean, one thing I've been talking with people,   particularly builders here while I've been at the park,   is   the reality on the ground   about building Bitcoin products is so different than the ideology of Bitcoin Twitter.   And   it's very refreshing to hear people say   shocking things like,   you know, I built this Bitcoin business dependent on Bitcoiners   paying Bitcoin in stores and like no Bitcoiners are doing   it.   It may be sad to people have you spent Bitcoin?  

[00:02:51] ODELL:

Sometimes I do, but Yeah. Not enough to where I could see anyone making, like, a business out of it. If you went to if you went to a store   and   and you saw just coincidentally, you saw, like, an I accept Bitcoin sign or whatever, would you pay in Bitcoin, or   would you still just tap your phone? Or Depends on my relation. What's your main payment method? Is it It'd be just dollars. You know? Do you use Apple Pay or something?   Yeah. Yeah. Do you use cash ever?   Rarely.   Rarely.   Interesting.  

[00:03:24] John Arnold:

What about you, John? I use cash when I remember to bring it part of the issue is remembering, but   I love spending Bitcoin here, especially from my own node. It just feels like such a superpower.   Yeah. They'll just threw a lot of cash on the Yeah. The flex. Bunch of ones. Yeah.   Yeah. Like, make it rain with the ones. Oh, there's some 100. Okay.  

[00:03:45] ODELL:

You always wrap the ones around the 100. Yeah. That's smart. I didn't   Basic UTXO management. Yeah.  

[00:03:52] John Arnold:

But Yeah. And, yeah, like, if I ever went to a store that had Bitcoin accepted here,   I would  

[00:03:58] ODELL:

willingly and gladly pull out my phone. Would you have a wallet ready to go? Yeah. For sure. What would the wallet be?  

[00:04:05] Skyler:

Probably Breeze. Okay. So it's not it's not fucking wallet. Yeah. Mine's wallet of satoshi.  

[00:04:11] ODELL:

It's kind of where I was going. I was looking for the wallet of satoshi or strike answer.   Yeah. Oh, I have striked you. But yeah. But I I mean, so that's interesting. So the way I   I'm an ideological   consumer. Yeah. So if I see a   if a store if I can I will always attempt to pay with cash if Bitcoin's not accepted?   And even if the store says no cash, I will take my cash out   and attempt to pay. So then they're like, Oh, no, do you see the sign? Okay. Because I want them to feel that pain of going of going card   only. But if I saw, which I must be honest, it's very rare. If I saw for some reason I walked in and it was a Bitcoin accepted sign,  

[00:04:53] John Arnold:

I would a 100% pay with Bitcoin. We were talking on the way over about takes that you have that Bitcoin Twitter would probably disagree with. And, actually, this, like, maybe spurs one for me. Yeah.   And maybe it's not something people disagree with. But   I think   it's gotta it's gonna come ultimately from the merchants.   Like, there   will be and I think needs to be merchant demand to   receive   payment either in Bitcoin or over Bitcoin, whether that's like, you know, something like what Stripe has proposed using Bitcoin as rail or   some other method. But, yeah, I think that starts as, like, 1% discount for paying in Bitcoin, 2% discount, whatever, and eventually gets to, like, I only take Bitcoin here, like, keep your dollars at home. But I think that's the catalyst that's gonna make it happen, not probably the other way around. So merchants are pushing discounts  

[00:05:44] Skyler:

to get   Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. So this relates to something we were talking about too, which is   the you don't only have 2 options for jobs, the fiat world and the Bitcoin world. Like, you don't have to work at a Bitcoin company, and you don't only have to work at a fiat company.   Bitcoiners   should   all be making really good companies  

[00:06:06] ODELL:

regardless of if it's, like, Bitcoin or not. Yeah. That's what I said. Like Yeah. Like, maybe we should be telling people, like, open a retail store and accept Bitcoin. Yeah. Like, make the best retail store ever and be super profitable, be amazing, and then you onboard people to Bitcoin in that way. Like, I had I have freaks of all shapes and sizes that list this dispatch and Rob Hell recap. And I'll always remember this one guy who was like, I really wanna contribute to Bitcoin.   And he's like, I'm a dentist. Like, what should I do or whatever? I was like, just be a dentist that accepts Bitcoin. Like, Bitcoiners need dentists. Yeah. Because you'll probably reach more people with Bitcoin than if you only accepted Bitcoin at that point   too. But this is like the this is the other part that we were talking about. Basically, me and Skyler and John were having a conversation outside, and I dragged them into the studio. And I was like, we got I was like, this is a waste if we don't turn the mics on.  

It brings up another question, which is,   there's   a so   I think just to distill it, the way it kind of comes is merchant demand first, that the merchant wants   their customers to pay in Bitcoin. Mhmm.   And so the question is, is why would a merchant want to do that? Now for the 1st Bitcoin business   1st business of a type in an area,   there's a very strong marketing incentive. Right? Or, like,   the Perth heat, for example, the the Australian baseball team that everybody knows even though no one follows Australian baseball   because they were the 1st baseball team to accept Bitcoin. And then all of a sudden, you know, people might not actually be spending Bitcoin on beer and stuff in the venue, but they're selling jerseys   abroad globally to people with Bitcoin. But the second a second baseball team adds Bitcoin or the third,   those kinds of extra marketing effects they're getting are diminished. And same with if you had a hardware store in Nashville that's accepting Bitcoin, that first hardware store might get, like, 90% of Bitcoin in business because we go out of our way to shop at the one hardware store that has Bitcoin. But when 3 or 4 have it,  

[00:08:05] John Arnold:

then Yeah. You hit the stumbling block. The the Perth heat, I think, is a great example,   actually, of kind of the dynamic that I expect to play out over time. Like, Pete Winn from FETI was was talking about it yesterday on one of the panels that,   one of the issues that they were adding was   baseball players from, like, Japan or from the US in the off season would come down to Australia for, like, 3 months and play, you know, in the leagues down there. But if you're only gonna be there for, like, 3 or 6 months, it's like a nightmare or impossible to get, like, a bank account. And so, like, how do you, like, manage payroll? How do you get paid? Well, Bitcoin obviously is, like, the the easy solution for that, and, you know, it's a unique solution.   And suddenly, like, solve this problem for them. The light bulb went off, and they they integrated it. And I think it's, like, that's more of the story that we're gonna see. It's like merchants   probably won't, in mass, like, accept it because, like, you know, fuck the state or because of desire for, like, century persistence, they'll do it because I wouldn't discount the incentive of fuck the state. I I would love if that were the case. I'd love for that to be the to be a thing, and, you know, broadly. But I think, like, something like the Perth heat where it's like, oh, I the live well comes on because, like, this solves a problem for me in a way that,   the fiat system can't. And for, like, US merchants, I think that'll most Right. They had a real need. Yeah. Yeah.  

So that'll come from, like, you know, the the pull of the incentive more so than the push of, like Mhmm. Ideology.   I'd love I'd love if there were more, like, ideological stories just, like, accepting Bitcoin just because of all its, you know, valuable qualities. But, yeah, that's what I kinda would expect.  

[00:09:33] Skyler:

I we will get there eventually, but   just now is not the time. Like, I think that really time is now all the time is now. But I think the price increase will bring way more merchants be like, Oh, I want to get some of this stuff. Like I want it. Like, it's going up. I want it. It's like that.   NGU is just   NGU Tech is like   it drives this.   Merchants have to want it. You can't just give them something they don't want. Because right now, bird Bitcoin is kind of a burden to a lot of merchants because they're like,  

[00:10:05] ODELL:

my employee, my minimum wage employee is trying to deal with this software that we use, like, once a month because 1 Bitcoin comes in a month and it's like, I wanna give you stats. And they don't know how to use it. So they're calling the like, it's just a headache, you know? And then if the payment doesn't work, like if lightning like Right. I mean, with on the opposite side of that would be something like tikiza, which is the taco place in Miami. Exactly. Yeah. It's like the perth heat of taco places. Yes. And it's like the owner of tikiza is a Bitcoiner and wants to sack stats and wants Bitcoin to win. So, like, he gets all of his employees the Bitcoin standard, and he's, like, constantly, like I assume he, like, wakes up in the morning, like, walks in and is like, have we made any coin today, folks? You know, I'm just, like, constantly trying to make it happen. But he also accepts fiat,  

[00:10:46] Skyler:

and his business is healthy because of that. Right. Right. A lot of people want to pay in fiat. So Well, then what about that? What about  

[00:10:55] ODELL:

and maybe this   does not work for physical businesses. I'm I'm not gonna say doesn't. It depends where you are. But,   for online businesses   that just are Bitcoin only, I've   there's something to be said about   there's a ton of Bitcoiners that the only time they've ever spent Bitcoin was because they had no choice. There there was no other currency accepted. Yeah. Is is there an argument for   online businesses that only accept Bitcoin and force you to kinda figure it out if you want the product?  

[00:11:23] Skyler:

I don't think that's a good idea. Personally. I don't know what you think. Good. I'm like, I would rather see really, really   healthy, strong businesses that also accept Bitcoin.   Yeah. And I don't think you can be really, really healthy and strong. If you're only accepting Bitcoin. It just limits you.   That's a hot take. But I'm like,   you're cutting   Like, for there's some companies that only accept Bitcoin. I would love for them to implement something on their website that says,   pay in fiat.   And when you tap it, it tracks the click to see how many people actually wanna click pay in fiat. But it says coming soon or, like, we haven't built this out yet. And you just kind of trick them. But like it captures their initial like, oh, I actually want to just pay in fiat because then they could actually see like, how much business am I actually losing because of this? And then quantify   the reality? You know? So  

[00:12:18] John Arnold:

I don't know. That's kinda my thing. What do you think, Tom? Yeah. I mean, I think there's, like, a a market segmentation argument. Right? Like, where,   if you are primarily serving Bitcoiners or if you think, like, you know, Adele was talking about, like, you're the 1st business in an area, and it's like it's like a marketing initiative in a way to kind of differentiate yourself and make a splash. Like, that makes a lot of sense.  

[00:12:40] Skyler:

But, yeah, he But doesn't that cap like, that There's such a limit to that. For sure. And, yeah, in businesses, you don't want limits. Like, you don't want limits in that way. Like, you want limits in other ways, but, like,  

[00:12:52] John Arnold:

there's a small pool. Right? And it's, like, kinda want the ocean, not that tiny. Like I mean, it's it's not mutually exclusive. Yeah. That's true. That's true. A a business being on a Bitcoin standard, like, a small business being on a Bitcoin standard doesn't really, like, you know, dilute or, you know, harm,   the overall,   push type of organization. No. Yeah.   At best, it's a small positive. Right? Like Yeah. That's true. It's kinda all upside.   Yeah.  

[00:13:20] Skyler:

But I think there's, like, a a a point too of, like  

[00:13:24] ODELL:

I just wanna see Bitcoiners. We have BTC pins in the comments going, as a merchant that used to accept fiat, I have a good idea how much less business I've had, and I'm fine with it.   How much less? I wanna know. Like BTC Pens, I love you, but it sounds a little copish. Can you do you have any, like, numbers or percent? I mean, I under yeah. I I totally understand the drive to do it. But, like,  

[00:13:49] Skyler:

yeah, there are there are downsides to accepting fiat, of course. But,   yeah,  

[00:13:56] John Arnold:

I think there's I I think it's I think the ultimate, like, Trojan horse for, like, the way I see it playing out is something like   dollar to Bitcoin to dollars or, like, your currency to Bitcoin to my currency. Yeah. And, like, you know, if I if I wanna receive Bitcoin as a merchant, I can do that. If you wanna pay in Bitcoin, I wanna receive in dollars. Yeah. Do that. Like, and then because then you get to a point where all the infrastructure is eventually set up. Probably initially it starts out as dollar, bitcoin to dollar everywhere. And then gradually, gradually and suddenly, right, like merchants are like, well, maybe I should take some of my settlement in Bitcoin. And maybe it's, like, 5% then 10%. And then maybe I just constantly receive Bitcoin. And by the way, like It's the Slider UX. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Exactly. I like visualizing the Slider UX where the merchants constantly is is is changing the balance of their split.  

[00:14:40] ODELL:

BTC pen says half sales, but also bear market.   I will say also, like,   like, dealing with fiat fucking sucks. Like, when we've started open stats, we were, like, we're gonna have no bank accounts or anything. That's cool. And, like, now we do, and now it's Gigi's problem. You know? And it's a fucking pain in the ass. And,   even with that, like, we needed to we knew we needed to accept credit card donations   Yeah. Even though we convert them into Bitcoin. Like, we knew that's what, you know, people were gonna wanna do.  

[00:15:09] Skyler:

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of   just like   the products it just kinda ties back to some product thinking that I've had, which is, like, you don't wanna force people to do things that aren't totally natural to them.   Like,   that is friction. And like, yeah, obviously, some friction is good, and not everything should be so easy that, like, you can be brain dead and do it. But like,   there's just some things. It's just like, there's other ways to get people into Bitcoin than, like, forcing  

[00:15:39] ODELL:

very difficult situations. Well, I'm not, like, trying to force anybody. I just, No, I know. I'm a It's just like a principle you have. I just no. I mean, I I also need to, like,   I don't want to sell Bitcoin. I want to spend Bitcoin.  

[00:15:52] Skyler:

Yeah.  

[00:15:54] ODELL:

That's what much more fulfilling, I agree. Well, let's talk about it. Like, if if we wanna talk about a business out, it's such a chicken in the egg. Right? Because if you wanna talk about a business or a person operating on a Bitcoin standard,   it works much better.   It's much easier   once you have other businesses you can buy stuff from and do all your expenses in in Bitcoin. Like, every time you have to convert to fiat before you make a thing, that's another piece of friction. Yeah. I agree. But it's it's complete chicken and egg. Like, I don't I think neither probably comes first. It's just kind of organically happens gradually then suddenly. Right? Yeah.  

[00:16:28] Skyler:

Because the more like, I've I've tried this sometimes, like, I was doing freelance for a while. And   if you get paid in Bitcoin,   and you have bills, fiat bills, you're just like,   you on Twitter, and they're like, never sell your Bitcoin. You're like, Dude, what am I supposed to do? You have to like reverse DCA. Yeah, I don't like you. These people like that say never sell or like clearly not earning Bitcoin. They're not all in. Yeah, it's like like, when you're actually all in, you're like, oh, shoot, this is really hard. No, you're like, I would love to pay all my bills in Bitcoin. I would spend it. So nice. Yeah.  

[00:17:01] John Arnold:

But I mean, the problem is, like, fiat denominated liabilities, like, still dominate   all over the world. I know. It's like,  

[00:17:08] Skyler:

I agree.  

[00:17:09] ODELL:

And that's why we have, like, these stop gaps or whatever, like, bit refill, the Bitcoin company, like, gift card stuff. So I think I think there's something to be said about   in the meantime, like, it would be nice if,   you know, Amex integrated   to dominate shit in Bitcoin just, like, payable by lightning invoice,   I think would be, like, a nice step function improvement that should be relatively low lift. Like, you just have to convince 1 company.  

[00:17:45] Skyler:

What if there was a company?   There might be one that does this. But what if there there was someone that built like this layer, which it was like, they're like, yeah, we're gonna handle all the conversions for you.   For whatever credit card, what any bill you have, and they just you basically  

[00:18:01] ODELL:

pay them Bitcoin, and you trust them to pay your bills. That's what bill Bitcoin does in Canada. They I think they call it bills.  

[00:18:07] Skyler:

So they're they basically handle that fiat conversion   Yeah. For you.  

[00:18:13] ODELL:

Yeah. You pay them Bitcoin. They pay off whatever, but, like, your phone bills or whatever.  

[00:18:19] Skyler:

Yeah. It'd be it'd be I I haven't seen that in the US. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if regulation Like difficult to bill. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah.  

[00:18:28] ODELL:

But I don't know. Again, we're early. So I mean, bull Bitcoin also gets a you know? Yeah. They get away with some no KYC tiers and stuff.   And, like, Canada,   I mean, it has a lot of faults, but it seems like,   in some ways, their financial regulation is a step above.  

[00:18:45] John Arnold:

Yeah. Which is kind of astounding. Right? Yeah. Given everything that's happened in the past couple years. I mean, we're the land of much KYC and Yeah. Yeah. Long arm of FinCEN.  

[00:18:55] ODELL:

Mhmm. Like, one of the reasons I'm concerned that so much mining is happening here. Sure.   Okay. Well, I on the positive note, I really like what Leo said on the panel yesterday that we did in circular economy, which was, Leo is the former face of Hong Kong Bitcoin,   and he did the Hong Kong Bitcoin meetup for 10 years. I think he had the Hong Kong Bitcoin Association   as well. Mhmm.   And then he moved to Vancouver when Hong Kong fell.   Mhmm.   And, of course, as every other Bitcoiner was a complete masochist and couldn't help himself and and drenched himself in the,   Vancouver Bitcoin community. And now he believes that they have the most Bitcoin accepting merchants that are active in North America. Dang.  

And, his main tactic was they would add a merchant, and then   they'd basically   task meetup participants to, like, stop there every day and just bombard them with   essentially, like, fake traffic.   Yeah. Like real life bots   until   because that way, they also the employees constantly get reminders of it. The Meetup participants can be   helping them accept the Bitcoin because, you know, whoever knows which employee is serving there doesn't know how to use a point of sale or something. That's fine. And, basically, like, arming your meetup group to kind of fake it till you make it. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm I'm all for that. Like, the grassroots push, like, we should definitely be doing that. I should be doing more to, like, help with that. We probably all should. I don't know if it scales, but, like, it's It's definitely just not scale. I mean, it goes hand in hand. It's, like, not scalable by design. Yeah. But I think the idea is like a defibrillator or something. Like, if you can like, I think we all   and it's a little bit dangerous. Like, I Justin says this. Like, this idea of,   Bitcoin being inevitable can be dangerous depending on your perspective of it. Mhmm. Yeah. Because then you feel like you don't have to do   anything. Yeah. I think most of us believe that, like, Bitcoin being   the standard money of the world that you can spend anything you need to buy, like, you can buy with Bitcoin and vice versa.  

That is, like, inevitable in the future, but   the the thing that I at least wanna think about is, like, how can I make that happen a little bit quicker? Like, the quicker that happens, the better. Especially if you're looking in a situation where,   we've already seen a ton of pressure on   the fiat exit ramps to Bitcoin. And   there's a good chance that that they get closed down even more.   And   private Bitcoin usage and self and when I say private Bitcoin usage, I don't even mean   you understand privacy best practices on Bitcoin. I just mean self custody. Like an individual. Yeah. Holding self custody can could potentially be criminalized or or be discouraged and made very difficult Yeah. From a regulatory point of view. And what protects us from that   is the ability   to spend and earn in Bitcoin directly because it's it's inherently more distributed. If it's if it's a bunch of bodegas versus, you know,   3 83 on ramps or whatever, exit ramps,   it's a big difference. Yeah.  



[00:22:04] John Arnold:

A bit and it's it's kind of like this is not to indicate that we should be complacent by any means, but I think you've said before, Matt, that, like,   government's clamping down on Bitcoin to show, like, why you need Bitcoin. Yeah. And, like, if you really get into this adversarial, like, truly, like, adversarial situation where these exit ramps are just being blocked, Like, that's probably also a situation in which the value proposition of Bitcoin is becoming clearer and clearer to more people. And so you probably also get, like, you it's like you squeeze, like, really hard in this one end and on the other end, it just all kinda goes to the other end. Right? Mhmm. And you get more businesses and people just, like, realizing   some need for, like, the use of But to be clear, in that situation,  

[00:22:43] ODELL:

the merchants would all be fucked the state merchants.  

[00:22:46] John Arnold:

That'd be  

[00:22:47] ODELL:

great. Yeah. And also, I mean, you created the term fuck the state merchants, or I adapted it from you.   Like, that's what most of the cash only merchants are. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Like, they're not doing it out of convenience. They're not doing it out of they're doing it purely out of, like, mind your own fucking business. Yeah. Yeah. They're doing it for ideological reasons. I mean, there's  

[00:23:09] Skyler:

few and fewer of them. But   Well, this   what you're talking about with the state clamping down, it made me think of,   when gun regulations come out. Mhmm. You go to the gun store, everything's sold out or way more expensive. Smith and Wesson stock goes to the roof every time there's like, you know, talk of like new gun control laws. But when, like, when I talk to some people in my life that I've like orange, orange filled, like,   you know, they kind of are like,   they get the when they think about something happening with some regulation happening, they're like,   kind of makes me wanna sell.  



[00:23:45] ODELL:

Interesting. I'm like, yes, it's different people. Yeah. Why? Yeah, of course. But I'm like,  

[00:23:51] Skyler:

why do they think to buy more guns before like Different people though.   No. It's the same person. Is the same person who's going to buy more guns? They view Bitcoin and guns as different. Yeah. And I'm like, why?   I mean, clearly, there's obviously a reason why they're not the same thing. But, like   They're both freedom tools. Yeah. They don't see Bitcoin   as this thing that can protect them. Maybe it's a lack of physicality.  

[00:24:15] ODELL:

Probably. It takes a little it's like more of a paradigm shift in your head. Like, it's very easy to hold a gun and and understand the power. Maybe the Internet thing makes them think that it can be confiscated  

[00:24:25] John Arnold:

easier or, like, sent easier. I don't know. Theoretically, like, the benefits of having a gun accrue to you, like, entirely regardless of, like, what's happening outside outside in the world. If you if you know how to use it, like, it's fine. You kind of need for like, to get the maximum benefits, you you could make the argument, like, to get the maximum benefits out of holding and using Bitcoin. You need, like, to Matt's point, a bunch of merchants to accept it. And so, like, if if you resolve not useful. Yeah. You're out on this this island where you hold this, like, freedom money that no one wants. That's a good point. So, like, a gun, it's not really the same thing because you can get all the benefits from just holding it. But, like, Bitcoin, you could argue, I don't really agree with this, but, like, the steel man at, like, like, maybe that's your fear. Right? But anyway, to connect everything Yeah. Like, it's  

[00:25:04] ODELL:

it should be such an obvious sell to get gun stores to accept Bitcoin, and that that's been a hard process too.   And a lot of them are still cash businesses.   They're like, I know about gold. Yeah. I accept gold. Yeah. I think I could bring in my gold bar and pay with that. Is it like Some of them accept personal checks, you know, and they don't accept bitcoin. Is it just the boomer factor? I think mostly. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:25:25] Skyler:

I feel like like maybe we should give them like the creature from Jekyll Island.   Maybe that might like, wake them up a little bit. That might make them gold bugs, but I don't know.   There yeah. I I  

[00:25:37] ODELL:

It is interesting the comparison of, like, gun culture because there's a lot of similarities. Right?   If you talk to,   a lot of people in the firearms community, they will say, like, if you went to a store and completed a background check, like, you have cut guns. Right? Or, like, you have no KYC guns.   That's true. Yeah. There's, like, there's a lot of cultural overload. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:26:01] Skyler:

Yeah. It's Freedom Tech, like you said. Exactly.  

[00:26:05] ODELL:

But It's interesting. Like,   yeah. I mean   yeah. I don't know. I mean, to go back to your, controversial   controversial opinions that most of Bitcoin Trader doesn't agree with you Mhmm. You use the term orange peeling. Yeah. Fucking hate the term. You do? Oh, yeah. I think it's so bad. Yeah. So why?   Because you can't force someone to use Bitcoin. You like, I don't think you can really convince someone to use Bitcoin. I think they need to find the need, and,   I think Bitcoin is inherently with consent. And for whatever reason, I just feel like I'm sitting at a bar, and you're dropping an orange, filling my drink.  

[00:26:44] Skyler:

Oh, okay. So you don't make the connection to the red, like, the red pill, take the red pill? No. I mean, like, the I mean, that's the obvious connection to make. I I think it's like but I'm not red pilling necessarily.  

[00:26:55] ODELL:

I'm like, you could take whatever pill you want, but, like, orange pilling is a action you take on someone else. Yeah. Exactly.  

[00:27:01] Skyler:

There's a force there though.   Is there not? I mean, dude, the picture is that he's holding out a blue pill and an orange or a red pill. It's like No. No. I'm saying in Bitcoin terms, like, when someone says orange pilling.  

[00:27:14] John Arnold:

I've I've always thought it is just, like, convincing someone to take a pill. No. Maybe I'm wrong. But Neo Neo took the red pill like him said. They were held out in, like, opportune. Right? And he, like, you know, reaches the conversation. Is the offering, I think. Yeah. I I think I like I took the orange pill. I think that's fine. But to say, like, oh, I orange pilled him. Like, that sounds like How many people pill.  

[00:27:32] ODELL:

Yeah. Oh, like, I took him. I was on vacation the other day, and I orange pilled 15 people.  

[00:27:37] Skyler:

But dude, that's not force. That's definitely not I mean, unless they literally forced it, but I'm like,   I I don't like it because it's cringe, but I kind of just embrace the cringe about it. But I'm like, I   I really hate it. Yeah. I I can see that. That's funny.   I I haven't thought of one of my opinions that  

[00:27:57] ODELL:

all respect we have Stack Toshi in comments saying the orange pull up guys would beg to differ. Yeah. I have a funny story, and it it,   I mean, shout out to those guys. I have respect, a lot of respect for them.   They asked my opinion on the early days right before they were gonna launch. It was, like, 3 weeks before they were gonna launch,   And I was like, change the name. And they they were like, no one has told us they didn't like the name. I was like, well, maybe people don't like it, but they just don't have the balls to tell you that you should change it. I was like, that's my opinion. You should change it. They're like, nope. We love the name. We're gonna keep it. I was like, okay. Well, I just needed to put that out there. I just needed to say it. That's funny.  

[00:28:34] Skyler:

Yeah.   I mean, I think a good critique of the pilling thing is like it's a pharma sci op.   Okay. To always be talking about taking pills as like an ideological,   like ingesting ideology through pills is like sort of I think that's like the higher level critique of like, why we probably shouldn't use the word pill anymore.  

[00:28:58] ODELL:

However, we get there. Exactly.  

[00:29:02] Skyler:

But but the this language, these memes matter because, they do help shape people's vision of the world.  

[00:29:09] John Arnold:

That's the galaxy brain take. Actually, just like all pills are bad. Yeah. It's like stop taking pills. Something about pills. Like,  

[00:29:18] Skyler:

it should be like meat. You know? Think about, like, Whole Foods, basically, like steak.  

[00:29:23] ODELL:

I just like, I I think   we've all been there. We've all convinced someone that wasn't even considering Bitcoin,   you know, to to think about it or use Bitcoin.   Yeah.   But I think, in general,   there's   too much focus on people that don't want Bitcoin Yeah. Yet and don't realize the need yet,   and too little focus on just focusing on the people that already have the need and already have the desire. Mhmm.   And maybe because it's   the former's   is an easier lift.   Even if you fail at at convincing them, it's it's an easier lift to go to complete new coiners, pre coiners, and Yeah. And be like Bitcoin 101.   Mhmm. But I think if you were, like, actually, like, what's what's the only thing more scarce than our Bitcoin? It's our time. Yep. And if you wanted to actually talk about, like, okay. Let's say we have   500,000   empowered individuals that, like, really care about the Bitcoin mission and the Freedom Tech mission, and they wanna go out and   evangelize or be missionaries or whatever on on on for Bitcoin standard.  

Like, where is their time best used? Yeah. And most of that time is being wasted,   quote, unquote orange trying attempting to orange pill Mhmm. People that don't want it yet.  

[00:30:41] Skyler:

So what should they do instead?  

[00:30:42] ODELL:

Focus on the people that want it already and need it.   There's a bunch of people that already want it. They don't know that that's what they want. Yeah. But they they they need it and want it.   And those people are underserved, and then Mhmm.   The the general mass normies are overserved.  

[00:30:59] John Arnold:

Yeah. Maybe it's I think it's a question of, like, leverage. Right? Like, it's, like, 2 maybe 2 ends of the spectrum. Like, there are people who, like, really need it around the world. Like, they're represented, like, by many of the activists here this week this week. And then there's, like, if you can if you can orange pill, like, if your uncle is, like, Larry Fink or if your uncle is, like, someone who can move, like, 1,000,000,000 of dollars into Bitcoin and, like, create,   like, dramatic, like, you know, reservation demand for the asset that has, like, the n g u effect, like, I do think that matters. And, like, so those two ends of the spectrum, like, are high focus points. But, yeah, like, I don't know. Orange filling, like, your cousin who has, you know well, he's just, like, some random guy. You got, like, $50,000 in savings or something?  

[00:31:39] Skyler:

Wait. So you guys are saying don't orange fill your cousin? No. Just maybe, like,  

[00:31:43] John Arnold:

you know, don't spend, like, you know, a month of your life trying to get, like Well, I would actually say I would say friends and family are the exception period.  

[00:31:50] ODELL:

And you can actually cut down on the time it takes because you just   you like if you mentioned to them Thanksgiving   or Christmas or whenever you see them,   they'll just completely dismiss you. Yeah. And then you mention it again, and then the price pumps. And then they're either really interested or the price dumps, and they're like, Told you so. Then the price bumps later, and then they get interested, and then they reach out to you because you're the Bitcoin cousin. It's a filtering mess. You don't actually have to do that much work. You're just   being a little bit annoying, and you just keep repeating. Planting the seed. Yeah. Most family members that have gotten into Bitcoin or whatever, it's it's taken multiple touch points. Oh, yeah. And you just do like, I've had   some experiences that, like, it took a decade for them from the first touch point to the to the end. It took them a decade. I see Pablo in the comments asking about rabbit hole recap,   my other show.  

That will be at 10:45   AM CST tomorrow.   So you're getting this instead.  

[00:32:48] Skyler:

Poor substitute. No. I think it's a great deal. It's a great deal.  

[00:32:52] ODELL:

You get 2 for the price of 1.   John, what's your most controversial what's or not your most controversial opinion, but what's something that Bitcoin Twitter would disagree with you? Well, I threw out my controversial opinion on  

[00:33:04] John Arnold:

merchant adoption. Oh, right. I need to I can maybe come up with more.   That's not really that controversial, though, is it? I guess. I don't know. I feel like I see a lot of disagreement with that on or I would, but maybe not.  

[00:33:17] ODELL:

Scott, did you give us your controversial opinion?   I sound like a milder. You see he keeps saying controversial, which He he wants to say the right one. The right one. He's trying to shy away from his first podcast, He's already in the country. He really wants to say tail emission. I can see it. Yeah.  

[00:33:32] Skyler:

No, my bad my controversial   or the something I believe to be true that most Bitcoin Twitter would disagree with is I think stable coins are just   gonna be they're just so important.   In the transition, they're so important. Who's important? Stable coins.  

[00:33:52] ODELL:

Interesting. And that I don't feel like that's, like, controversial.  

[00:33:56] Skyler:

Bitcoin Twitter disagrees with you, though. That's why you cared about Yeah. That's why I'm like, yeah, I don't know if this is controversial, but I I think a lot of this Bitcoin Twitter would say, no. You just ignore Stablecoins.   But,   also, when I say Stablecoins, I don't freaking care how they're built. But the terms where you we agree the term stablecoin is a SIOP. Right? Yes. Like, there's they're inherently not a SIOP. It's not a SIOP. It's relative.   Stability is relative   or subjective rather. Like,   value is subjective.  

Stability is subjective. So one person's stability is another person's volatility,   depending on what their context is like. If someone's currency is inflating at a 100 percent,   that is chaos.   Yeah. And the dollar is order.   Right. So I'm like   But I mean more from, like Yeah. This is sales psyop, and they're not gonna No. In last forever. Their incarnations,  

[00:34:48] ODELL:

they have, you know, massive central points of failure that could have, like Mhmm. Just instant 0  

[00:34:54] Skyler:

black swan risk. Yeah. I agree.  

[00:34:56] ODELL:

So the so, like, it could be stable for   Yeah. I mean, look at Lunatera. Right? It's like the example.  

[00:35:03] Skyler:

So Stable till it's not. Of course. So the yeah. The the name is a SIOP. We should just call them fiat coins.   Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not. That's fine. That's kind of better actually because it's it is what it is. Yeah. Like   but but like I said, it's more of a first eye out too. It's like I don't care how they're built. It just it it instills that it's just it's the truth. It's a eye out that gets you to the truth. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.   The   so I don't care how they're built. Well, I care how they're built. I want them to be built well, And I don't want them to be That's what Novograt said right before he put the tattoo on his Yeah. On his   arm. But, most Bitcoiners use dollars   every single day.  

And yet they say that   they can't use a stable coin.   Yeah, why would you not? Why wouldn't you could completely be off the fiat dollar system? And you could be using   some tether thing and some Bitcoin thing? And I'm like, why would you not want that?   That would be cool. I think.  

[00:36:04] ODELL:

So I mean, I think   I mean, that's kinda what Strike does Yeah. When they on their in their global app. Right? Where they don't have but they don't give people access to withdraw   the stable coins or deposit this or the fiat coins. Mhmm. You have to do it through Bitcoin or whatever, but it's it's what represents the dollar balance. I mean, the way I kinda look at it is,   like, if Tether   weren't to get shut down by the US government,   there's there's little reason to to own Bitcoin or use Bitcoin or whatever. Like, you have purchasing power, protection, or whatever. But,   you're saying if it My point is shut down. My point is the reason Bitcoin exists is because centralized alternatives to traditional financial rails always get fucking shut down, and Bitcoin needs to be as robust and censorship resistant as possible. And what does that mean? It means it needs a free floating native token to pay miners so you don't have any third party risk. And so the the whole reason we have Bitcoin, the token, in the first place,   isn't for people to get rich even though I do believe Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. It's because you need it for a system. Yeah. A payment system that doesn't have some that has censorship resistance. Mhmm. So I think on a long enough time scale,   most of these stable coins or fiat coins will actually be lessons in 3rd party risk and custodial risk and lessons in why Bitcoin is great. Yeah. And   it's hard for me   it's it's it's it's   building those kind of solutions   are are   relatively high time preference, in my opinion,   because you're building something that will not last, and that will potentially result in pain for users.  

And we saw that with Luna. There was so much   Tether FUD   that when I was talking,   to some Bitcoiners in Argentina or whatever,   there was a lot of usage of Terra because it was the quote, unquote decentralized   stable coin or whatever. And and those people didn't learn the risk of that until after they got rugged. Right? They didn't understand what the trade offs they were making until after they got rugged. And that is my biggest issue with it. I do I will never, like,   say that, you know, Fiat coins aren't useful today that people there's clearly tons of demand for it. People want dollars.   The traditional financial system sucks. They're cut out of it. Yeah.  

Everyone anyone who's ever sent a wire Yep. Mhmm. Knows that it's a fucking pain in the ass, and bank accounts are pain in the ass. And just even if you're using a centralized chain like fucking Tron or something, it's   incredibly easy,   to send Tether, and you don't have to you know, you're not actually trusting the Tron chain or whatever because   you're trusting Tether's Excel spreadsheet and their bank vaults.  

[00:38:43] Skyler:

Tether is   so based.  

[00:38:48] ODELL:

Dude, I'm like, like, it is so cool.   I It amazes me. It's so funny too, because I've been like, for a decade arguing against tethered truthers, but also in the back of my mind, just like, tomorrow's gonna be the road.   But, like, I I always just just you know, I call it cruise missile risk. Right? Like, I   I don't I think, like, it's, you know, the long harm of the US government will eventually, like, catch up to you and and not not necessarily, like, malicious. So   I both   have expected Tether to fail this whole time and then also have been   arguing against the people that are just, like, Tether's a straight up scam. It's, like, pumping the price of Bitcoin and, like, everything's a Ponzi.  



[00:39:28] John Arnold:

It's kinda like your Binance argument. Right? Yeah. Like yeah.  

[00:39:31] ODELL:

You're in Bitcoin long enough, you just end up defending ridiculous  

[00:39:34] Skyler:

things. Well, it's it's nice because it it kinda breaks you out of, like, normal   traditional   thinking. I mean, because Binance is a complex thing. And they are banking the unbanked all over the world. Yeah. In reality, like,   they're actually doing it. They're literally on the ground doing it, and Bitcoiners are saying you guys this is so bad. And I'm like, you should be doing that. I mean, the problem is they're, like, buy BNB Yeah. I know. I know. And all the other fucking shit. And they are doing shocking k y c n people. And But, like,   look at the problem they're solving, and can't we solve that?  

Yeah. Like, aren't we smart enough to solve that problem? Well,  

[00:40:16] ODELL:

it's less   I mean, I'm maybe it's a different type of smarts. It's not a technical smarts that has led to Binance's success.   It's   it's it's it's to me, it's mostly cz willing to potentially go to jail for the rest of his life for this whole time. And, like, he's just been operating under that assumption. Like, there was never an attempt. Like, yeah, he did, like, Binance US or whatever, but it was like a half ass attempt. Like, he's never tried to be regulatory compliant.   He's just assumed this whole time, like, that's his enemy. And it's like Isn't that Ancap?   I mean, he is.  

That's that's the difference between him and, like, more modern shit corners in my opinion. He's like that sovereign individual Bitcoin Yeah. Shitcoiner. Right? Like, he has big bags of Bitcoin. Like, he understands the value prop of Bitcoin.   You know, he just also scams people.   You can be an Ancap shit corner. Yeah. There are many Yeah. Yeah. For sure.   Yeah. But, like, there's 2 different breeds of shit corner. Right? There's a shit corner. Like, I honestly believe that SPF,   like, when everything went to shit, like, his he had a go bag filled with crypto or whatever, and his go bag was, like, all Sam coins, like FTT and, like, Sol and shit. Like, he actually believed the shit he smoked. But, like, I think that cz's He was high on his own supply.   Go bag is is fucking Bitcoin.  

Like, he like, he at the end of the day, like, BNB is his fucking Ponzi token or whatever, but, like,   he knows the value of Bitcoin. It's a it's a different breed.   Yeah. That's interesting.   Do OGs get nostalgic of OG griffs and scams? I wouldn't say nostalgic, but   it's just a different breed of people.   I,   I mean, the Binance thing is interesting because of the same reason that TetherBit for next thing is interesting. If you go   buy exchange,   if if you go it's hard to track metrics of exchanges, but Yeah. Because they can be gained. They can be faked. But Binance is by and far the largest. It's not even fucking close. But you we can see   what their exchange balance wallets are,   and, like, how many coins they supposedly hold for their customers, like, on chain. And we don't know what their liabilities are, so it's not proof of reserves. Keep that in mind. But you can you can make some inferences based on that. And based on that, it goes Binance,   then a big drop off, then Coinbase, then Bitfinex,   and then a big drop off.  

Mhmm. And, you know, Coinbase is gonna custody all the ETF coins.   They have already basically signed surveillance sharing agreements with the SEC and stuff. So,   like, when the US government says we need to make sure before we have an ETF that there's no market manipulation, what they mean is they wanna make sure that the market manipulation is done by suits in a regulatory compliant manner. Yeah. And they don't want they don't want black market,   black market almost, you know Influence. Free market influence over it. And they can't do that with Binance   and Bitfinex and Tether existing.  

So in my opinion, that's where the majority of this flood is coming from, but at the same time, like, he could be hit by a Christmas tomorrow. Like, I'm not saying that's not the case.   And not your keys, not your coins.   Mhmm. And same with the Tether guys. Like, it's crazy to me that they just   and now they hold all these treasuries. Like, I don't even understand. Like Yeah. Can't they just rug treasuries? Like, how does   can't  

[00:43:32] John Arnold:

treasury rug treasuries? Because they've done it before. Right? 2 years ago with Russia. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like  

[00:43:38] ODELL:

That was, like, the first time they ever really did it. Right? Yeah. Yeah.   That was man, so much has happened since then. That was always the funny part about Tether Truthers to me. It was like they were like,   you know, they we need them to be holding dollars and bank accounts and Tether and all this stuff, and they're like big conspiracy that was they were holding Bitcoin in the background to back everything up because Bitcoin is is the best collateral ever. Yeah. It's like, you know, if you wanna keep 1,000,000,000 of dollars outside of government control, like, that's the easiest way to do it. And in my mind, I was like, well, I hope for their sake, they're mostly holding Bitcoin. Like, they're just gonna get rugged in any kind of fiat. Well, it's it's funny because it's, like, in the situation that the US government is in right now, like,  

[00:44:15] John Arnold:

China, Japan, a few other, like, massive bag holders of treasuries over the last, like, 10 years and especially the last couple of years have been, like, unloading their bags like crazy. Meanwhile, like, Tether is, like, increasing its holdings of treasuries. And so the US government's in this funny situation where, like, increasingly, Tether is an important buyer of their debt,   of our debt.   And with everyone else, like That's interesting. Buyer selling it. It's like, what can we really afford a new Tether right now?  

[00:44:40] Skyler:

Yeah. So that's, like, maybe a bull case  

[00:44:43] ODELL:

for it like for Tether. Yeah, like, it doesn't matter. None of this matters because it's built on centralization. So like for Oh, yeah. As much as I hate the Binance FUD and I hate the Tether FUD, like, they literally it doesn't matter,   you know, how much success they might find on a regulatory side or a game theory side or whatever. There's just, at any point, it could just be 0.  

[00:45:03] John Arnold:

Yeah. It's a turkey problem. Trust a third party. It's great. It's great. It's great. One day is 0. Yeah. Yeah. So,  

[00:45:09] Skyler:

I mean,   do you think that it's not valuable to work on stable   solutions,   like alternative stable   providing   solutions   on   Bitcoin.  

[00:45:22] ODELL:

Yeah. I I just don't know. In the interim, I guess. Everyone can work on whatever they wanna work on. I mean, that's the beauty. Right? Work on Bitcoin without permission. But I don't think it's the best usage of time,   particularly because in this   this small window or whatever window it is, I don't know,   maybe 5 to 10 years window where, like, there's this demand for, like, a non Trad Fi US dollar.   Like, how many years will Tether serve that, first of all?   And, like, we know these things always have network effect. Mhmm. So, like, does any nothing else really ever becomes dominant   unless Tether falls. Mhmm. And we saw these regulated attempts at it, and and that was a complete   dismissal of the main value prop as black market US dollars. Like, you can't have a regulatory compliant competitor to Tether. Yeah. So   so, like, I don't even know if there's necessarily   a direct financial incentive to do it Mhmm. Because   I don't think you can actually take any reasonable market share from Tether unless Tether fails. And in that situation,   you also have to be willing to make the same deal that the Bitfinex guys and the Binance guys made, which is, you know, you might be thrown in jail at some point.  



[00:46:29] John Arnold:

I don't think it's bad. I think it's the same answer that I had kind of on, like, grassroots pushing up, you know, Bitcoin adoption of conversions. It's, like, definitely do it. Go for it. I don't know that it's, like, the highest leverage play. But But okay. So I guess here's a scenario. You go  

[00:46:43] Skyler:

let's say you're, like, trying to build a product for someone outside the US, and   you go down there and you're listening to their problems, and they're like,   Yeah, we tried Bitcoin.   We can't use it because of the volatility.   So we're just gonna use Binance. Right?   Like, to me, I'm like,   I can't listen to that and be like, no, I'm not gonna try to think of something for that person. Well, like, I think there's an argument at least.  

[00:47:11] ODELL:

Like, I see someone mentioning StableSats   or, like, the proposal for stability pools as a Fedimint module.   I think there's an argument that that work can be useful because   the argument is you're trying to in my opinion, the the strongest argument there is that you're trying to reduce the pain that the ultimate tether failure happens because you create all these independent pools that even though they they have centralization   risk or whatnot in in different issues,   they're they're on smaller scales and they're smaller community. Right. So less people get rugged at once.   And, you know, I   I mean, I think the safe assumption is that eventually tether rugs, whether it's, you know, force compelled or   or on their own. And I think, eventually, Binance, like, same thing with Binance. But and and so, like, if we have these tools that reduce that risk and encourage people to use them instead of those, then   I think there's a strong argument there.  



[00:48:05] Skyler:

That's   I agree.   I wasn't gonna bring it up. But, I mean, I think, like  

[00:48:11] ODELL:

But I wouldn't consider that, like, that's not like a fiat coin. That's like a that's a mechanism to peg dollar value. It's a stability contract. I guess that's not a sexy name, but, like,  

[00:48:21] Skyler:

it's a stable   balance.   Yeah. That is   something you agree upon with people you know, and trust.   And   you're leveraging the trust in that situation to gain this benefit of stability to save you from the volatility of Bitcoin. Like that's   and it's all anchored back to lightning.   And I mean, Bitcoin Right. Eventually.   Yeah. I I love the concept of Stable Sats or stability pools. Like, I think,   you know, I I yeah. So that so that's why I was kind of saying is like, stable coins is like, I don't care how they're built.   Maybe it's a contract between people, but like, the end user is gonna think that this is like a dollar.  

They don't care how the mechanism works. You know, they're just like, they don't understand the magic mechanism of the like our current currency.   They don't understand how banks work. They don't understand reserves or lack of reserves like old stuff, but they use dollars. So I just think   people are gonna want dollars for a long time,   maybe 5 years, 10 years.   Maybe maybe that's   not bullish enough, but I just think they're gonna want stability  

[00:49:34] ODELL:

in a chaotic world. I mean, I think saying that people are only gonna want dollars for 5 years is pretty bullish.  

[00:49:40] Skyler:

Yeah. I'd agree.   Well, bullish, bearish on Bitcoin.  

[00:49:45] ODELL:

5 years? And, like, if it's in 6 years, people don't want dollars anymore, that's bullish as fuck.   Well, what's your what what are you guys' time frames? I don't know. Like, 10 to 20, 20 to 30 or something. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what like, money dies, like, gradually then suddenly. Right. Right? Yeah. I just I I don't know when this suddenly is in. We have the best shitcoin. The dollar is the best shitcoin, so all the other ones should happen first. Right? Yeah. In practice. And maybe this this new bricks thing   does, like,   changes the dynamic a tiny bit.  



[00:50:17] Skyler:

Yeah.   I mean, I don't know. I I don't wanna discourage people from thinking about these sort of things. Like   because if we have 30 years, dude, I feel like people should be building a like a very based stability option that is connected to Bitcoin.   And like,   making really good experiences with that.  

[00:50:38] ODELL:

Yeah. I don't know. I both, like, respect  

[00:50:41] John Arnold:

the need for it and the demand for it. It definitely exists. But then also, like, it's just never been my personal demand. I I think Yeah. What you were saying is, like, is right. It's it's or maybe Matt said it. It's a it's a really good fallback option to have for, like, a a Tether rug scenario   as long as Tether exists. Like, it's it's your point that Matt has made a lot. Like, you know, people just jump from chain to chain with stable coins. Whatever gives them loyalty. Yeah. Whatever gives them the the lowest fees, the the easiest experience. Loyalty to Tether is my point, actually.   But that's not not a chain specific. My point is just, like, people just want, like, the easiest thing with most Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether Tron, Tether. Yeah. Shit. Where there's the lowest fees. Centralization doesn't matter.  

When fact centralization, like, is helpful for Tether. Yeah. Like, you actually want that to be central. Because you have cheaper fees. Yeah. Exactly.   But for the the day, potentially, when, you know, that goes to 0, like, then having something like,  

[00:51:32] ODELL:

stability pools or Well, I think it's worth it if you have it before that. Because I actually think what happens really good before. Yeah. When Tether collapses, I believe in the opposite of Tether chuters. I I believe when Tether collapses, it's gonna be   the the green god candle of Bitcoin. Oh, yeah. Because there'd be an escape from Tether, and there's nowhere the black market can go except Well, it's like when the banks collapsed Yeah. That happened. Right? Yeah. But even more so because it's fucking Tether,   and it's, you know, natively in the ecosystem.  

Yeah. There's no jump. Yeah. I think it becomes like, I I think I think it becomes hard for any like, if we I mean, do you realize how big fucking Tether is? Like, if Tether goes down,   there's gonna be a lot of users that are just never gonna trust a stable balance again.   Yeah.   I mean yeah.   So, like, I actually think, like, these alternatives that these more distributed alternatives, they're just almost there to reduce the pain of Tether   Because, like,   you know, maybe you can get a 1000000 people or 500000 people to switch from Tether to one of them or something. A bunch of them. Right? You don't want it to just be a single road point either.  

[00:52:39] Skyler:

But it could also be that Tether doesn't get fully shut down, but it just gets harder to use.   More KYC.  

[00:52:45] ODELL:

Yeah, I mean, they've been freezing addresses and stuff.  

[00:52:48] Skyler:

So and and then that's like pushing people towards like more no KYC.  

[00:52:52] ODELL:

But not even that much because like, we've seen frogs boiling over and over again. It's like,   that's the beauty of the frog boil.  

[00:53:00] Skyler:

I guess it's just   it depends how inconvenient   the experience gets for people. Yeah. Because, like, if you're in an unbanked   area   and everyone is now forced to have, like, sort of, like, bank accounts, like, kind of shutting people off from using it.   But   yeah. I mean, that's my   thing that It's interesting. Bitcoin Trader doesn't agree with me on, but   a couple people do.  

[00:53:28] ODELL:

I mean, crypto Twitter definitely agrees with you. Yeah. Bitcoin Twitter just doesn't. Yeah.  

[00:53:34] Skyler:

Yeah.   We'll see. We'll see what happens.  

[00:53:41] ODELL:

Guys,   this has been a great conversation.   We do have a hard stop because we have   programming happening here at the park.   Before we wrap, first of all, it's been an honor and a privilege having you both on your first podcast experience.  

[00:53:56] Skyler:

It's been great.  

[00:53:58] ODELL:

You're both good friends, and it's   always good to kick it. And it's great   it was a great conversation.  

[00:54:05] John Arnold:

Before we wrap up, let's do final thoughts. John, final thoughts. I forgot to give you my actual hot take, which is that Bitcoin VC has the potential to outperform Bitcoin if,   executed correctly. But, we're trying to wrap up. I'll leave people with that with no additional elaboration.  

[00:54:21] ODELL:

Final thoughts. Getting me in trouble.  

[00:54:24] Skyler:

More Bitcoiners should be building healthy businesses.   They need to be thinking about customer   needs and customer problems before   providing solutions   to them.   And,   yeah, buy Bitcoin.  

[00:54:42] ODELL:

Fuck yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you both.   Since John put me in the hot seat, I'm gonna say,   Bitcoin is the scarcest asset that we've   that has ever existed, period. People do not appreciate the scarcity. Mhmm.   It's gonna be incredibly difficult,   at this part of the adoption cycle   for   businesses to outperform Bitcoin.  

[00:55:09] Skyler:

Mhmm.  

[00:55:11] ODELL:

Does not mean it's not possible.   There's been a lot of focus on   what that means for potential investors,   and every investor should always that's a Bitcoiner,   should always   keep that in mind. What is my opportunity cost?   If I could own Bitcoin instead of   investing in a start up?   There's obviously flywheel benefits even if it doesn't outperform Bitcoin   because you're making the ecosystem more robust.   But I think there's less focus on   that every founder is doing the same exact calculation. The focus is often on the investor side.   But all these founders of all these Bitcoin startups, they're doing the math in their head.  

You know, if I didn't launch this business and try and bootstrap it for 4 years in the early stages of Bitcoin's adoption cycle, could I have stacked more sats by just working my cubicle dead end fiat job or whatever? Yeah. Yep. And and so this is a calculation that literally every Bitcoiner   should be making on a on a constant basis. I think even if you're spending dollars,   your your unit of account should be Bitcoin,   because that could be Bitcoin you own that you don't own.   And it's just a whole mind shift change.   And and and what is the dream? The dream there is,   when you have a good money that's worth saving   and that preserves your wealth and accrues value over time,   then you actually allocate capital efficiently. Yep. And you don't make dumbass decisions   because you're not bailed out. And you you you literally have to,   allocate your time and your money efficiently in order for it to be worth it. Right?  



[00:56:51] John Arnold:

Yeah.  

[00:56:53] ODELL:

100%. Okay. Awesome. Well, this is great.   As always, dispatch is funded by our audience. We have no ads or sponsors.   I'm just gonna quickly read out the top 4 boostergrams on fountain.   The episode was yesterday. The most recent episode was yesterday, so it's incredibly impressive that you guys have boosted us to the top of the podcasting 2 point o leaderboards in less than 24 hours. We have at Eric 99 with 300,000   sats. Boost to get this episode on the leaderboard, 95% failed, so it only really cost me 15,000 sats. Mary Oscar with a 100,000 sats, big test 2,   up, that failed as well. Dash with a 100000 sats, great rip, also failed.  

Mary Oscar, big test, thanks, Odell, for great content, a 100000 sats, also failed.   So we're working on liquidity to my node.   It is not a solved problem. Hopefully, it will get fixed, but I will say to the freaks,   thank you. I told them last week. I was like I told them yesterday. I was like, because it's failing, if you do really big boosts, you don't have to pay me. The stats just go back to your wallet,   but it still counts towards the leaderboard. So Oh, really? Thank you for your support even if it wasn't financial. And, hopefully, I'll see you guys soon. I'm gonna try and get a rip with Barak in, before this weekend so we can,   discuss Arc and and debate the merits and whatnot. But with all that said, huge shout out to John   and Skyler for joining us. Thank you, Freaks, for your support.  

I appreciate you all. Stay humble, stack sets.  

[00:58:21] John Arnold:

Peace.