Citadel Dispatch

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TOPICS: Trading vs Stacking, Open Source Dev, and Taproot Activation

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Generate a lot of headlines because you suggested   let, you know, paying municipal workers in Bitcoin, putting some of the city's reserves in Bitcoin, letting people pay taxes in Bitcoin.  

[00:00:11] Unknown:

Isn't that risky? And tell me how would that work. Obviously, anytime you invest in anything, of course, it's risky. Absolutely no obligation whatsoever for any of our employees to do that. In terms of the investment part, we invest in a variety of different commodities,  

[00:00:24] Unknown:

whether they be, you know, sugar, pork bellies, whatever the commodity may be. Well, sure. But none of those other commodities fluctuate 10, 20% in a day the way Bitcoin does. That's why it's something that we're studying, necessarily something we're jumping right into. I wanna read something that treasury secretary Janet Yellen said. Bitcoin is an extremely inefficient way of conducting transactions and is a highly speculative asset. I mean, so when you hear that from the treasury secretary, doesn't it make you think twice? It doesn't surprise me at all that a treasury secretary would find a decentralized,  

[00:00:55] Unknown:

potential currency,   to be hostile to to a currency that they control. For people who invest in Bitcoin, the allure is precisely that it's not backed by a central,   government. So it's not manipulatable by a central You were talking about investing government resources  

[00:01:10] Unknown:

in this completely decentralized   resource, which I scares people a bit.  

[00:01:15] Unknown:

Does it scare you? I guess it scares you. I don't I don't live here. I don't know. I guess it scares you. It doesn't scare you.   It you know, I think it's something worth studying. I think it's something worth studying and worth looking at.  

[00:02:01] Unknown:

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.   And we're here for another week of Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software.   I'm your host, Matt O'Dell. Big welcome to all the freaks joining us here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.   That clip was mayor Francis Suarez   of Miami   calling out treasury sec secretary Janet Yellen,   for frankly being scared of better money. It appears that the Bitcoin deniers   are transitioning to   a new narrative   where the only way they can protect their shitty money   is to prevent   Americans   from having the choice and the freedom to choose which money they want to do,   which is just really telling if if I'm gonna be frank about it.  

I'm excited that this week, we are joined   by James O'Byrne at jamesob   and our good friend Evan Kaludes who this is the first 3 Pete on the podcast joining us for the 3rd time.   James is the lead maintainer of Coldcore.   He's also a Bitcoin core developer   and has experience in open source dev across the board.   Evan, you guys know Evan well. He is the lead maintainer of Zeus,   Lightning Wallet.   They're both former New York BitCorners alongside me.   This time last year or maybe a little bit earlier than this time last year, we were partying,   in New York City, and today, we are separated across the world.  

So it is very exciting to have them both back here,   for today's show. Since Evan has been here before, let's start off with James. James, how's it going?  

[00:03:42] Unknown:

Matt, great to be here, man. Thanks for having me on. And,   Evan, congratulations   on the hat trick.   It's a big deal.  

[00:03:51] Unknown:

Thanks a lot, James.   Just glad to be sitting down with you. It's gonna be a fun one, Yeah, man. Absolutely. So let me,  

[00:03:58] Unknown:

let me kick things off with   the ceremonial   opening of the India pale hard seltzer here.   Get started.   Man, I am I am just amazed that the,   the interviewer there in that clip cites Janet Yellen as being,   any sort of authority because   if you look at her previous comments on,   like, the housing crisis of 2007   or the   fact that   the Fed's balance sheet roll off is gonna be like watching paint dry or, I think maybe a year or 2 ago, she said something along the lines of there'll never be another financial crisis again.   It seems like Janet is her own contra indicator. So,   if she's saying that that that Bitcoin's dangerous, then, I think it's safe to go the other direction.  



[00:04:52] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, that was the host who was speaking was, I guess, that's HBO's new, new show, in partnership with Axios.   I guess, they got into a fight with Vice, so now,   they they have an Axios series.   I mean, I thought it was interesting, the whole, like, little discourse back and forth   about being scared. Like, he asked, Francis if he was scared, and then he he kinda, you know, he kinda made it seem like he was scared, and then Francis was like, are you scared? And then he was like, well, I don't live here.   But, like,   we've seen time and time again, and we will see with these Bitcoin deniers   that, they don't care if they'd live in the area where they want you to deny Bitcoin. You know? Right. They they didn't care if if if US users are actually using something for them to try and,   stop people's freedom to choose or freedom of privacy. Right?  



[00:05:39] Unknown:

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.  

[00:05:43] Unknown:

Evan, thank you for joining us for a 3rd time.  

[00:05:46] Unknown:

Yep. I can know what they say, Matt. 3rd time's a charm. Yeah. I'm I'm just really glad to be a part of the show and have the opportunity to just chat with, you know, great people in the space like James.   Fuck. Yes. A great topic today. I'm looking forward to   diving into. But,   it was a really pretty clip up front with the Miami mayor. I just love this attitude.   You know, growth starts at the edge of your comfort zones, and, you know, a lot of people getting into Bitcoin right now are gonna learn that. So more the merrier.   Just bring them on. There's nothing to fear, freaks. I mean, talking about citadels,  

[00:06:23] Unknown:

I mean, what was it? Was it, like, a year and a half ago,   that we were doing the citadel workshops together with James there,   in New York City   in person, no masks.   It's pretty crazy how time flies.  

[00:06:39] Unknown:

That was a riot, and, we never saw any of this coming. I would have,   yeah. Yeah. I would have, cherished those events that much more if I had known it was gonna be, you know, a delay of at least a year before I got to hang with you guys again.  

[00:06:55] Unknown:

Well,   fear not. It won't be the last, so,   we'll get back to in person chilling soon enough. I'm sure.  

[00:07:03] Unknown:

Yeah. For  

[00:07:04] Unknown:

sure.   Before we get started,   I just did want to do a quick shout out to the Bitcoin 2021   conference in Miami in June.   The freaks that have been here in the past and are joining us through the podcast feed,   are aware that I am trying to my best to help them throw a good party,   in June. I, you know, I think Bitcoin will be pumping in price.   They gave me my own unique code where I negotiated a better rate because I didn't want any kind I don't believe in, like, rufflings or anything. So I I just wanted all of it to go to the discount code. So they gave me 21%,   and I   you freaks have just been demolishing this code. The code is humble, all caps.  

They are going to cut me off. They told me on Friday,   they're cutting off my 21% discount. So if you are gonna do it, you should probably do it, before that. You know, or you can wait for number to go up because then the price will go down that way. And then one other thing I just wanted to add is this is broadcast via Twitch,   YouTube, and Twitter.   We have freeks joining us from all three of those things. It is important to realize that YouTube automatically cuts out the end of my show every week,   because of copyright, and I kinda deserve that. It isn't cut off from Twitch. It isn't cut off from Twitter. If you go to sitaldispatch.com,   I also have archives on Keybase and Telegram where you can download the full video file or the full audio file. There's also 2 podcast feeds. You can either listen to it,   on the TFTC podcast feed or the the dedicated Citadel dispatch feed if you just search, Tales   from the Crypt or Citadel dispatch on your podcast app of choice.  



[00:08:43] Unknown:

Do you want yes. Go on. Would you would you recommend taking out a   Bitcoin collateralized   loan to pay for your, Bitcoin 2021 ticket?  

[00:08:53] Unknown:

No. I would not. Okay.  

[00:08:55] Unknown:

I I think As as my registered financial adviser.  

[00:08:59] Unknown:

This is this is,   I mean, not financial advice.   I mean, I think that, you know, you should just spend Bitcoin within your means. I think people shouldn't be taking out leverage on Bitcoin. And on that topic,   we do like to get technical in here, but let's be honest, a lot of the freaks, a lot of the listeners like talking about price. They like talking about number go up.   If you're watching this live, you have our usual chart is being live streamed out to you. On the top is the evil empire coinbase.   On the bottom is   is is bisque,   the proper no k y c,   p to p exchange.  

So keep an eye on that as we go. But on that topic, James, in March, when everything was going crazy, you decided that you wanted to be a trader.   Do you want to reflect on this for the freaks, and, you know, have you reformed in your ways? Do you think stacking is the way to go?   Did should people try and time markets? You know? What what's your thoughts here? Yeah. I guess it's time for a, formalized public atonement  

[00:10:00] Unknown:

and, and or lashing for   for my transgressions   earlier in 2020.   Basically   I   saw what was going on, I saw the pandemic coming,   and, you know, I guess called it in the grand scheme of things relatively early. Like like pretty much anybody else who was kind of paying attention to the   usual alternative sources on Twitter, I guess.   And, you know, had some early success   like shorting corporate debt,   had some success,   going long Eurodollar futures, which is basically just a way of betting   that interest rates,   short term are gonna drop, you know, towards 0,   which they did. So I was kind of emboldened by that stuff to, I don't know, trade,   trade more. And I thought that basically,   at that stage in the game, that Bitcoin was essentially just   beta on the stock market, and   the stock market was seemingly obviously going down.  

And so I thought, oh, well, you know, I'll sell some Bitcoin and then   scoop it when it,   you know, hits some lower level and, you know, up up my Bitcoin holdings.   And in the meantime, I was I was kind of, like,   diversifying into gold, which everybody   will laugh me for and rightfully so,   because I basically   it was, again, you know, it's one of these, like, disgusting   decisions where you're, like, banking on the way that other people perceive the world. And I kinda thought, okay,   You know, the markets are entering this calamitous state, and   people are going to be rushing towards,   you know, a Bitcoin equivalent,   whether they know it or not. Some people are gonna, you know, ultimately risk towards Bitcoin. But but, basically, anybody over the age of, like, 55   just doesn't seem to understand   Bitcoin.  

I'm sure there are people out there, but but in any case, my my gut was basically that   older people were gonna look at gold as a kind of safe haven asset. And so I was like, okay. Well, maybe I should own some of this, and   that that in nominal terms wasn't a mistake. I did make a return on that, but   definitely not nearly,   what I would have made if I just left my,  

[00:12:25] Unknown:

my money in Bitcoin. Did did I just hear you price your return in US dollars?  

[00:12:32] Unknown:

Yeah. That's another transgression. I guess I haven't worked all the kinks out yet, but,   yeah. As as as as Sam was saying there, I used to write or I wrote a few issues of this   this newsletter, Bearhouse, which is me just kinda talking about the markets and, like,   you know, openly talking about how much money I was either losing or making.   And,   the final kind of installment of that was me   having this come to Jesus moment where I was like, I don't believe in any of this bullshit aside from Bitcoin, so why am I screwing around?   And the price, I think, at that point was, like, $9,000.  

And so I had made some stupid sales   early around $6,000.   And so I basically just kinda like mark and called myself back into Bitcoin   both, you know, literally and spiritually because it was like, woah. What are you doing here, man?   And I I chalk all that up honestly, and I here's here's, okay, here's, like, the big   danger for for for Bitcoiners.   I think a lot of us   are driven by novelty to a certain extent,   and,   we get contrarian and we get bored. And I think that's kinda what happened to me is that I was like,   you know, I basically, I've I've been absorbed in Bitcoin for the last, you know, 3 or 4 years professionally, personally,   and, I think I just kinda started to fidget. And subsequently,   you know, made some bad decisions,   But,   but, yeah, that was that was an experience for sure.  



[00:14:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   I remember when it was happening clear as day, I was like, oh, James.  

[00:14:10] Unknown:

The the one thing I would add is You should be by the collars and sort of shake.  

[00:14:15] Unknown:

I know. We were telling you, last year, but, yeah. We we honestly should've shook you. I was trolling you on Twitter, which is more effective, to be honest. Yeah. And, it was before Have Fun Staying Poor. I remember I posted a video   of,   a video of cooking bear fat and eating bear meat and bear fat,   and I alluded that it was you.   I I think a key thing that you did, which I will commend you for, is that you you took the loss and you admitted your mistake and you fucking just bought back in. And at the time, it was like the difference between 6 $1,000 and $9,000   Bitcoin. Mhmm. And I think a lot of people would be like, oh, I missed it on the 30% swing and wouldn't have the humility to come back in.  



[00:14:58] Unknown:

But but you had the humility to come back in and you look now, like, what's the difference between 6 k and 9 k is fucking negligible. Right. Right. Right. Well, I mean, I'm not a moron, and I'm a Bitcoiner for life. So, I mean, this you know, we're we're kinda it's not like I sold out my whole stash or anything. This is a sort of, like,   marginal amount. But I think, yeah, my rhetoric was maybe stronger at the time than it than it Very provocative.   Certainly.   And, again, that's kind of the contrarianism   and the, you know, and the the boredom kicking in.  



[00:15:29] Unknown:

But what you really missed, right, what you missed is you didn't expect them to print as hard and as fast as they fucking did.  

[00:15:35] Unknown:

Well, that's kind of the irony of it is that, like, in in my,   you know, the the single piece of writing I've churned out that's that's probably gonna stand the test of time, which is Bitcoin for safety.   I basically outlined exactly what was gonna happen and what did happen, and I didn't heed my own advice. So,   like, the joke is on me because,   it's it it was all in there and they printed hard. And,   I basically just thought that the   the transmission dynamics in the monetary system weren't going to sort of translate,   you know, the Fed purchasing   or purchasing   bonds into   a saving of the corporate debt market. But instead, what happened in actuality is the Fed opened a special purpose vehicle and they went out and started buying corporate debt hand over fist. And that's I think that's the thing that nobody really counted on, and is is almost certainly a violation of the Federal Reserve Act, but, you know, as if that whole thing.  



[00:16:34] Unknown:

James, I wanted you to get into, your experience with the gold. I think,   the parts of that you detailed I mean, first of all, hats off to, you know, detailing pretty much, you know, all your moves like this online and on your blog.   That was really cool of you.   But I I was almost most interested by your tweet thread   detailing your headaches with offloading your gold when you decide to sell it.  

[00:16:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. That was a really interesting experience, and it was kind of coincidental because,   as as Bitcoin's price movement started and it was kinda it became clear to me that this year was gonna be an absolutely insane year.   You know, I just had to dump the gold. And in the process of dumping the gold, the difficulty inherent in that   was, like, the ultimate verification that that that is the right move because,   so basically the way that it worked is it was, like, maybe a Wednesday,   and   I wanted to sell the gold. So I called up AppMex,   spoke to some woman,  

[00:17:35] Unknown:

and we, like, had to hold them. What was that? App AppMex is,  

[00:17:40] Unknown:

it's it's it's they're a gold dealer.   They're one of the bigger ones, appmex.com.   I don't I I don't have any affiliation with them, but   I just happen to know that they they buy gold. And so,   I'm sure, you know, you can do that locally, but I didn't really wanna futz around with that. So,   so I called them up and,   talked to some saleswoman, you know, we spend like 30 minutes kinda   doing this dance over, like, well, how much gold do I have, and, like, what kind of bars are they, and, you know, like, doing some price haggling. And,   so then we finally,   finalize on price.  

She has me sign some paperwork, I think, with my social on it.   Then the next day, she sends me   okay. So this is already over, like, 16 hours. Right? If if you were selling Bitcoin, you would be   you'd have your your wire transfer, like, processing at this point. I'm just now signing paperwork.   So,   basically,   if you sell a certain amount of gold, you have to split it into separate packages,   and you have to double box it with double labeling, and so this woman sends me 2 shipping labels, which I print out into a total of 4 labels,   double box everything, pack it up.  

You know, I have to, like, go out and get get packaging materials and stuff, and,   all the while, I'm kinda sketched out by, like, the prospect of, you know, physically bringing this stuff into the UPS store and   potentially handing it over. So I get it all packaged up. I go to the UPS store.   I hand it over to the to the to the woman there and, walk out. And at that point, it's like, okay, the gold is has just sort of entered the ether, you know. It's   it it's in UPS's custody, and,   I sure hope nothing happens to it because,   ultimately, I'm gonna be the one   with the loss, and, it'll be on me to go appeal to UPS or whatever insurance company to actually get reimbursed for that.  

So,   finally, the the gold winds up at AppMex. They receive the delivery,   the next the next week. I think it takes, like, 2 days for that to happen. But then they go, like, unpack the gold and inspect it and verify it.   And then there was some other little miscellaneous, like, hiccup where, you know, I was told there's a problem with the order, but there wasn't actually problems. So long story short, like, then and then they, you know, dispatched the wire, like, a day later. So long story short, it was, like, 7 days.   It took me 7 days to get paid for this gold   that I unloaded.  

And the whole time, I'm just you know, my my jaw's on the floor, but I'm like, who the hell   is exposing themselves to an asset where, like, this is what counts for liquidity?  

[00:20:21] Unknown:

Yeah. The markets there are, like,   completely   bonkers, really. Like Yeah.  

[00:20:29] Unknown:

And then as as soon as you want gold, right, we saw this during the during the crisis,   during the corona crisis.  

[00:20:36] Unknown:

As soon as you wanted gold, every single physical dealer locked up. It was, like, impossible to buy it even if you wanted to buy it. Well, yeah. And that's I mean, that speaks to a much more fundamental problem in the gold market. And I I did write an article about this following,   Bitcoin for safety, which is just about basically the the counterparty risk inherent in in in gold just because the settlement   process is so   sort of infeasible.   And because settlement is so difficult, you have, like, this big paper gold market where there's theoretically a lot of allocated gold sitting around in some vault, but that's pretty theoretical at this point. And,   you know, it's hard for people to actually take delivery.  

You know, in certain cases, it's sort of impossible if you're in one of these ETFs,   And and that just I mean, that allows people to play games with the price. And so   you you don't really know how rehypothecated   the physical gold market is. And that I mean, you know, how can you own something where   the whole value is predicated   on a scarce supply when you don't really know what the supply  

[00:21:38] Unknown:

is. Yeah. It's bonkers. No way to do a easy proof of reserves on a gold system.   And, and just the paper alone makes it right for manipulation and,   you know,   not just, the derivatives that could easily be,   made from it, but, you know, even just knowing if the gold is actually where they say it is. There there's,  

[00:22:00] Unknown:

you know, no accountability in that regard. No. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, one thing I wanna talk about a little bit is that, like, aside   from aside from the profitability or whatever or the quality of the trade,   of Bitcoin, I I got to this point after a few months of focusing on on markets and focusing on trading   to realizing that there's,   a kind of spiritual simplicity or fidelity to   just holding Bitcoin because   there are there are more interesting things to do than play casino or to to trade. I mean, you know, I guess it's one thing if you're, like, an applied mathematician and you're modeling some option strategy and you're actually being sort of creative.   But I I just got to this point where I was kind of disgusted with how I was spending my time, and I was, like, I felt it was very consumptive to sit there and just watch markets all day.  

And I found that   when your strategy is just buy Bitcoin and hold it until   indefinitely,   that   that frees you up to to do much more interesting things, like   like write code or or go out and make art, you know, or like,   you know, put together a back to back boiler room on on,   Citadel dispatch,   which I think is coming.  

[00:23:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, we we gotta make that happen. I mean, James, we really need to come down to Miami for the conference, and, you know, we'll just play an after party there. Give it to the people in, in person.   Yes.   Amen. But, yeah, we'll organize that for sure. But, yeah, I agree with your sentiments on trading. It's like it's I don't knock   anyone who is actively doing it and making a living   doing that,   but   it's just that   I have Bitcoin   and my   you know, I've been inundated enough to go with the dollar cost average strategy.   Just I don't have to waste   my time anymore looking at charts, looking at what's gonna go and and make a run next. Mhmm. So my strategy now is is proven, and,   I also get to benefit by, you know, not having to put any thought into it anymore. It's just set, and now I get to forget it and and focus on, you know, my main means of, like, you know, making a living, and then that's programming. So   Totally.  



[00:24:20] Unknown:

And, you know, at the end of the day, that's that's the goal of Bitcoin. Right? Right? The goal of Bitcoin is partially   so that, like, the plumber doesn't have to go out and become   macroeconomist   by night just to preserve   his value. You know? You can just work and save and focus on   the, you know, the interesting things in life and not, like, financial engineering in a in a half hearted way.  

[00:24:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely. And and this is like, you know, people may say, whatever. You're 9 to 5. That's the rat race. It's like, no. It's like trying to hold on to the money you earn. That's the rat race in in our society right now. And I I think,   just wanting to escape that rat race is why a lot of people,  

[00:25:04] Unknown:

come to the come to our space. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna just hold on to this thread and unpack the fuck out of it because I think it's extra important, and   people just it's it's weird to me, and and it's a thread that I've been   going at recently because so yesterday, I had,   you know, I said on the Peter McCormick podcast, which is something I've said many times that I expect Monero to trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin long term.   And so I had the Monero stand come at me and they told me,   that I don't care about privacy because I said that. But if you look at a chart, it literally is trending to 0 long term in Bitcoin. And what they don't realize is I believe this for every single fucking asset on this planet.   And and it's amazing to me that for some people,   they so I posted the e chart last night, then I went and I posted Apple, then I posted Facebook, then I posted b n y melon because I just added Bitcoin. I just thought it was   funny.  

And who's the other? I posted Amazon, all trending to 0. Literally, if you go to strategy.com,   which is, Michael Sailor's website,   ridiculous domain holder,   literally every single s and p company in the s and p 500   has worse returns than Bitcoin. If you price the returns in Bitcoin, they're getting clobbered.   It's interesting to me how some people   understand that concept, can can get along on that concept, but then when I tell them it's designed Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, I lose them.   But and then other people, they're like, trend to 0 makes no sense because they can't understand the concept that something that trends to 0 doesn't mean it's gonna actually hit 0.   But I say Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. They're like, oh, yeah. I agree. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever. Well, if Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, then everything that it's priced in is gonna fucking trend to 0 long term.  



[00:26:53] Unknown:

Mhmm. Mhmm.  

[00:26:54] Unknown:

Does anyone in this does anyone in this room disagree with me? I already have Evan on the on the James, do you disagree with me here? Like, long term, no matter what,   no matter what. Long term, it's designed to pump forever. It's designed to pump forever because look. Okay. So so  

[00:27:10] Unknown:

Bitcoin is the perfect substrate for price. Right? Because Bitcoin is the perfect monetary asset because it's portable, it's censorship resistant,   it's divisible,   it's fungible.   It has all the properties   of sort of the perfect monetary   good.   And so, you know, I think it's just a natural consequence that eventually everything's gonna be priced in Bitcoin, basically.   You know, the question is how long that takes and whether there are fits and starts and delays and stuff like that. But no. Yeah. Bitcoin is designed to pump forever.   I think, you know, sometimes it's it's it's funny because, like, I have grown   a huge respect for some of the more, like, trolly,   outrageous rhetoric, like, have fun staying poor   because,   for a while, I fought it, you know, as as being sort of unsophisticated   or   unnuanced.  

But after a while, you know, you just realize, like, these things are our truths, and   they   they sometimes   repel people who are, like, skeptical, but it's just the damn truth. I mean, yeah, Bitcoin's designed to pump forever, like, that's, you know if you sit there and think about it for a little while, that that is   one phrasing of the conclusion that you get out. I mean, I use the word pump to be  

[00:28:26] Unknown:

provocative. Right? Right. Like, really, it's it's, you know, a truly finite scarce   deflationary   currency   is going to increase in purchasing power indefinitely,   but that just does not have the kind of ring to it. Right. Right. Right. No. Yeah. You're absolutely right.   So that's awesome. Like, a like, a a second priority of the show is just getting prominent Bitcoiners to all be on the record that they think Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. So we can Check off. No. We have James now. He's the first first Bitcoin core developer on the record to agree with that that that  

[00:29:02] Unknown:

statement. Yeah. I I just do what little I can to hang on to any shreds of technical credibility because I feel like,   I feel like I I have, like, mid tier shit posting on Twitter, and so I try and,   you know,   maintain a semblance of credibility at least in the GitHub repos.  

[00:29:20] Unknown:

So before we go on to more topics,   that are   James specific,   or that are are, you know,   things that I would really love to discuss with James. There's something that I have to discuss personally, which is Bottlepay, a company that I am advising.   It came out today that   they are allegedly   flagging coin joined deposits   and sending back the user funds,   if,   you know, those deposits when those deposits get flagged, they send back the user's Bitcoin.   I've, you know,   I've I pride myself in my transparency, so, obviously, I'm here talking about it.   I should have advised harder is what BGT team says. Yes. That is my goal. If you think I'm not continuing to hard advise,   you'd be mistaken.  

There's been a lot of discussion today.   They are supposedly going to release a public statement. You know, I was pressured them to get it out quicker. I don't even know what's going on right now because I'm streaming.   Hopefully, they will have it out soon.   Really, I'm curious, but I'd like to start off with both of your comments since you are unbiased here, and, we'll take it from there.  

[00:30:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure thing. Let me kick into it.   Yeah. I mean, it's it's   disappointing for sure.   You know, you never wanna see someone be denied from using a Bitcoin service just because they wanted the privacy in doing a coin join or, you know, whatever other method.   But, you know, it's it's a tricky territory because, obviously, if bottle pay themselves,   you know, had a say in the manner that   they wouldn't, you know,   the back they'll stop CoinJoin users from depositing onto their service.   They sort of have to play the   they gotta play the game,   you know, in in the arena that that they're working. It's a fully KYC service. Right?  

And, you know, it's all UK only, but from what I experienced with the original product and what I've heard about the new one, it seems to be a phenomenal,   experience.   But, you know, there's some realities in the world that we live in if you wanna operate in a certain manner.   You just gotta play the rules of the game, unfortunately.   Is it always gonna be like that? No. And we have a lot of work to do in ensuring that gets changed.   But, you know, that's just not   the rules of the game, the the laws that they're in right now.   It's it's not how they're in.  



[00:32:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I I agree with Evan.   That's a real shame, and I'm sure that the people who started that company,   do not like this.   I mean, I can't speak for them, obviously.   But I can imagine that if you start a company like Bottlepay that you'd be very happy about   locking out CoinJoin users.   So, you know, I guess, right, they have 2 options. They can   presumably either stop operating, which   hurts, you know,   their their their customers   in a real way,   or they can operate with this this constraint.   And that's a little scary because it kinda sets, you know I don't know about setting a precedent, but it certainly is a testament to this idea that,   now, you know,   coin joint   coins are not as fungible   as Bitcoins.  

So  

[00:32:55] Unknown:

Well, I would disagree with that.  

[00:32:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I yeah. I mean,   well, like, in a literal sense, in the immediate term, if you're a bottle pay user, you know, and you've coin joined, then then it does make a difference. I think there's a lot of prospects long term for kind of,   doing en masse obfuscation that that, you know, would result in the sort of redemption of the purchasing power of those coins on bottle pay.   So I I don't know. It's a it's a real shame to hear about stuff like that,   and you hope that there are some pretty obvious workarounds that people can use.  

[00:33:31] Unknown:

So, I mean, a couple of things that I wanna say here.   Appreciate both of your comments. I I cosigned   what both of you said. Actually, I probably,   I think you guys pussy footed a little bit too much, which is ironic because I was hoping you guys would go harder since I am, you know, actually,   you know, advising them. But,   I I I think first of all, number one thing I wanna state here is that every single sat I hold,   has a coin joint history.   I believe that,   Bitcoin   I I I believe that that taint does exist, but it exists for non coin joined,   Bitcoin. So I think that the only Bitcoin that doesn't have any taint,   it is, you know, the the only truly fungible Bitcoin is Bitcoin that has been coin joined.  

And I hold only coin joined Bitcoin. So I do stand with anyone who,   might have concerns about,   being able to deposit it where they wanna deposit it, send it to where they wanna send it. I'm in the same boat as you.   Second of all, I have no intention of ever depositing those coins into a KYC service to begin with.   I think KYC is the illicit activity. I understand that companies need to comply with regulations, owners' regulations.   I like to see them push back on it. I think bottle pay is the type of company that will push back on it, but you have to realize they are a start up.   They are just, you know, a very new company who just recently gotten their licenses and whatnot, and licenses in the in in the UK are a lot worse.  

So it's important to keep that in mind.   I think that the only carve out I have for KYC services are an on ramp.   And in that situation or or an off ramp if you're talking about exiting shitty money,   and and and and that concern, the way I look at it is is if you have your Fiat paycheck that has, you know, your KYC Fiat paycheck and your KYC Fiat bank account, then you can use the KYC service   to go,   into Bitcoin and then go into   CoinJoin after that, to try and reclaim some forward privacy.   So I think   in this case, it was a deposit, not a withdrawal. I think there should be a distinction there.   I think, it's more malicious if if if flagging is happening on withdrawals, if accounts get closed based on withdrawal history.  

You know, and it's interesting enough, you know, one of the newest services, Swan,   doesn't even allow deposits. They're withdrawal only.   And maybe that is a cleaner way for people to handle it.   Another thing I'd say is I do appreciate that they just returned it right away   really promptly. They didn't close the account, which I think is a nice,   you know, if for what it is, that that is, like, the best case scenario that you could ask for. And then last but not least, it is kind of interesting. They do accept lightning deposits.   So it's interesting how that is gonna start factoring into these kind of things, like, whether they're, you know,   they're allegedly   and I'm really operating on mostly public information, to be honest, is is is their their   chain analysis tool,   their chain surveillance tool   says something's risky and they just return the funds. But it can't do that for lightning, so it's gonna be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. Mhmm.  



[00:36:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I gotta go Sure. Guys.   Do you think   do you think there's any possibility   of KYC   as we know it right now being abolished   before hyper Bitcoinization?  

[00:37:03] Unknown:

No.  

[00:37:05] Unknown:

So we have a bit of a paradox in that,   you know, we're not gonna hit Hyper Bitcoinization   without services that can onboard, you know,   100 of 1,000, millions of users   in the form of, like, a bottle pay.   And, in the meantime, the users that   do use these centralized services, they're more than likely gonna be having to deal with these KYC regulations.   So,   you know, it's it's really, like, a tough scenario. Like, you obviously   don't want a bottle pay,   to be having to deal with all this stuff. Like, this news isn't good news. Right? But at the same time, you gotta understand that it's gonna be services like this   that are gonna help us get across the finish line and bring Bitcoin   to, you know, the masks.  

So, you know, there's some big dilemmas in in that that we're gonna have   to come to terms with   as this thing grows and becomes more popular and we get more pushback from   regulators in the state.   Mhmm.   Mhmm.  

[00:38:11] Unknown:

Yeah. Do you guys think do you guys think that, like   so I've been talking about this on on RHR a lot.   You know, Randy McMillan said 2 k markup on bisque right now.   Few few   know, but on Citadel dispatch, like, 3 weeks before   before we hit 50k, it hit 50k on Citadel dispatch live on bisque, just because of the lack of liquidity.  

[00:38:35] Unknown:

I know. That's that's the thing, man, is their order books are super, super thin. I love Bisc. I wanna support it, but goddamn, there is not a lot of volume on there. Well, dude, you gotta start somewhere. Right? You gotta start somewhere. Yeah. This is why we show it so heavily on this on this show. But,  

[00:38:51] Unknown:

what was I gonna say? Oh, so one of the things I've been talking a lot about on on Tales from the Crypt   is   is that   I think that there's gonna be an intermediate period   where   the KYC gets so bad that it essentially results in a situation where you can't withdraw, period.   You know, like, maybe, like, a few people can withdraw, but they'll make it so fucking difficult,   that in practice, it's like if you go through a regulated service, you just can't even really take self custody.   Gotcha. Are you guys worried about like, do you guys see that as well? Do you see, like, a, like, a 3 year period, 5 year period, like, the growing pains period where where the yellings of the world, like, extra freak out, and they just,   you know, they they just they just pull the plug and and basically make it so that that self custody,   you know, is is is   is impossible to do through a regulated service or impractical to do through a regulated service.  



[00:39:50] Unknown:

I'm of a split mind on that because I think you   absolutely have to account for that or some other, you know, 6102   adjacent   event.   But the thing that kinda eases my mind a little bit there is that   it just seems like   for the government to kinda unilaterally do something like that,   the mechanisms are just, I think, too complicated and the bureaucracies are are too slow.   And, you know, Bitcoin has a lot of friends at this point in government,   in organizations like the SEC.   So   I think even if   if Yellen Treasuries are wanted to do something like that, I think there is a far cry between   that desire and the actualization of that through   the means of the government,   because it is a bureaucracy and because there are parts of it that are pro Bitcoin. So,   and because it's just such a blatant infringement   of American freedom. So,   on the one hand, like, I I I wanna account for the possibility there and and be ready to weather it, but on the other hand, you know  

[00:40:58] Unknown:

Alternatively,   James   alternatively, James, last week, the SEC   just unilaterally decided that Americans couldn't trade 15 stocks. So how do you circle that square?  

[00:41:10] Unknown:

Woah. Maybe this is a piece of news I haven't heard about. You mean are you talking about the GameStop?  

[00:41:15] Unknown:

It wasn't the GameStop though. There was a whole list of them.  

[00:41:18] Unknown:

Well, okay. So that but but that's the more you wanna say. That wasn't the SEC as far as I understand. That was the DTCC,  

[00:41:24] Unknown:

which is a a clearing firm. No. Last week. Last week was the SEC. The SEC suspended trading on 15 different stocks. Oh, really?   I missed that. I've been completely out of the They said they have the right to do that for up to 10 days without any kind of explanation. They said   irrational social media  

[00:41:43] Unknown:

activity was happening. That's funny. Well, I mean, I guess, is there the the question in terms of my, like,   you know, mechanical reassurance   point, the question there is that were the was there a law on the books that the that that gave the SEC that permission explicitly, or was that just something that they sort of decided   was gonna go? I don't know the answer to that. But,   you know,   if if there were some contingency in the law that allowed them to do that for, you know,   securities,   maybe that's one thing versus if they just kinda decided to do it, because I I think I think, you know, anything with Bitcoin,   which I guess is regulated by the CFTC   more or less and is a commodity by the way, the the CFTC is a a much cooler   territory by in my mind than than the SEC. But,   but, yeah, I I it's I don't know the specifics of that, so it's hard for me to map that onto Bitcoin.  



[00:42:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Evan, I know you have an opinion.  

[00:42:41] Unknown:

Listen. Everything that I'm seeing coming down the pipe, it's you know, they're they're trying to put more and more limitations on this thing and and try to stifle it,   wherever they can really. And, you know, the the politicians that are beholden to the special interest that really would,   stand to lose a lot with the proliferation of Bitcoin,   They're looking at,   you know, not   seeing that a ban outright is probably not practical. They're definitely looking at trying to throw as many regulations   on this thing   as possible to help stifle its growth.  

But at the same time,   you know, these are battles   that, you know, are in front of us.   Their outcomes are not settled,   and, you know, it's gonna be up to each and every one of us to try to push things in the direction we want things to go to. Listen. It's it's not gonna be easy,   but every passing day that we hear a new senator or house of representatives   member,   say they like Bitcoin or even cryptocurrency   or or hold it, every time one of these publicly traded companies say that they're adding Bitcoin to the reserves,   things, you know, had a little more in our direction, and and we have a little bit more hope.  

So after,   you know, seeing what's transpired this year with all the treasuries and the support we've gotten, I'm definitely much more optimistic than last year. But we all still need to be,   you know, just prepared for   a huge, huge fight.  

[00:44:20] Unknown:

So to be so to be clear here, this is something I've been worried about for since I got into Bitcoin.   It's one of the reasons why I always stack Sats is because   I thought to myself, I go, if I try and time the market and I sell, maybe I can time I actually, you know, wasn't that humble. I was, like, I could totally time the market. I'm gonna sell the top and buy the bottom, but what happens if when the bottom comes, I can't get back in. Right? And this was a fear that I always had, and and and what I look at is I think it doesn't have to be an explicit law, and you see this with bottle pay. Right? Is is these companies   are trying to limit their liability and their risk, and and and we live in this litigious society. And this is what we saw with the lockdowns. Right? Is that even before you had laws in place that said that people had to close their businesses,   those businesses couldn't get insurance coverage, and they were afraid they were gonna get sued to fucking kingdom come if their employees got sick. Yep. So you end up in this heavily litigious society, and if if there's overtures being made that people need to clamp down on self custody, a lot of exchanges and services and on ramps or exit ramps, whatever you wanna call them, are going to just cut off. They're just gonna cut off access just to protect themselves.  

But, besides that point,   James, I got the I got the screenshot for you here. The SEC suspends trading multiple issuers based on social media and trading activity.   Yeah. That's wild, man. I hadn't seen that. That's fucking crazy. Like, it's it's the writing's on the wall for people that these so called free markets aren't really free markets, and the only free market that's available is Bitcoin. And if you think that they they can't do this on Coinbase Pro,   I mean, you're smoking the good shit, and I'd like to have some of that.  

[00:46:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Absolutely. Absolutely.   There's another company worth shouting out,   CardPoints,   which is   basically another kind of on ramp.   It's it's like a gift card exchange that's kinda booting up.   The guys who run that are are really, really, really solid Bitcoiners.   So maybe, you know, this this is great for bidirectional liquidity, but if you're looking just to buy some Bitcoin, that's another good option. But they have KYC. Right?   Oh, I don't know about that. I didn't think so.  

[00:46:33] Unknown:

So, anyway, no KYC only is just a really great resource if you're looking for a no KYC option,   locally. I mean, at the end of the day, like, unfortunately,   let's be honest,   a lot of this is gonna be,   especially in this is, like, dark in between period, a lot of it's gonna be, like, kind of, you know, like a relationship with the weed dealer.   You know, it's gonna be something that just   you're you're gonna have to, like, go out and seek, and it might not necessarily be that difficult, but it is definitely gonna be more difficult than downloading,   you know, a sexy UX app on the App Store. Right? Yeah. Yep.  



[00:47:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   it's gonna be different in different jurisdictions,   but, you know, it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility of it happen in the places we live. So,   you know, you gotta be prepared out there.  

[00:47:26] Unknown:

The I remember, like, when I first found Bitcoin, like, the first thing that I thought was,   you know,   was was kind of like,   I I I don't I don't know. Like,   the like, almost like a B cash or logic. I I saw it as, like, a utility token, and I saw this idea that you could you could send Bitcoin to,   someone in, like, Hungary or something or someone in Turkey, and then they can just immediately go to the Bitcoin ATM and get, like, Turkish lira out or euros or whatever. Mhmm.   And and and it was a way to basically transfer cash across borders.   And then, of course, what happened was all the ATMs,   had to they they started getting all these KYC requirements if they were doing if they were gonna feed out cash. Like, sometimes they don't have hard KYC if you're buying Bitcoin, but they do on the opposite side.  

And it was funny because it was basically the education experience of why Bitcoin exists in the first place is because all of these ATMs are are run by centralized third parties. And if you have a centralized third party, they're gonna get squeezed. They're gonna be scared,   and and get sent to jail, so so they're gonna have to comply. And the whole reason that didn't happen   and it hasn't happened yet to this day   is why Bitcoin has value in the first place. And it might happen the future, but the important thing is that the actual network,   token,   the bearer asset that we have, this digital bearer asset, doesn't have a centralized third party that can that can be squeezed,   is is super fucking important.  

Before we move to the next topic, I just you know, I   sometimes I have been in this space, you know, been publicly talking about Bitcoin,   for probably too long,   and I just assume that all the freaks are aware of CoinJoin and and my usual CoinJoin shill.   I I I think it's important for people to realize that CoinJoin   is   is a Bitcoin it's just a Bitcoin send. It's just a it's a it's a Bitcoin transaction where you're sending Bitcoin   in a in a self custody way, in a non custodial way. You're you're you're sending Bitcoin with with best practices, privacy best practices,   being implemented at the same exact time. This is wholly different than this idea of mixing or where where you're you're sending into a custodial   wallet and they're sending you someone else's Bitcoin.  

With with with CoinJoin, it it it the equivalent would be something like   5 people have gold coins and you all take your gold coins, you melt down the gold coins, and you create 5 new gold coins would be like what a what a coin joint transaction would look like if if gold wasn't a shit coin.   The I I think it's important for people to realize this distinction, this idea that that that we would inherently   assume criminal activity   based on using Bitcoin in a in a way that   that uses privacy best practices,   is is kind of crazy to me, and I think it needs to be pushed back on hard.  

This idea, like, don't use, like, terms like washing and laundering   and Right. These are terms used by the the oppressor to to   insinuate criminal activity.   Privacy itself is not a crime. There's nothing illegal about privacy in America. This idea that that that we're just going to   insinuate that people that are seeking privacy or criminal elements is a ridiculous concept. It's a concept that needs to be pushed back against. It's a concept that's against freedom. And this idea   that just basic financial privacy, wanting to have basic financial privacy,   should not be something that the average person wants that, like, you need to be like James Bond   or fucking Jason Bourne, and and you have to, like, delete your life and be like a crazy, like, secret agent man to have any kind of basic privacy   is, like, an absolute cuck mentality. It's a state mentality,   and it's absolutely ridiculous. Like, we shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to explain to someone why you don't want your employer to know what you bought at the bodega, and you don't want the bodega owner to know how much your employer paid you.  



[00:51:32] Unknown:

Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.  

[00:51:35] Unknown:

And what's a bodega? Do people outside of New York even know what a bodega is?  

[00:51:40] Unknown:

Well, we know they have cats. That's that's all we really know about bodegas.   But, no, that's a really that's a really fundamental point, Matt. I mean, I think few people, you know, maybe understand this idea that   if let's say that you make some Bitcoin transaction with, like, a dinky little convenience store. Well, if that Bitcoin you gave them isn't properly anonymized,   then they can walk back and basic and potentially see your net worth, your whole stash. And   if they figure that information out, then what's to say that they won't track you down and rock you later on? So,   there are many, many, many,   very legitimate use cases   for frequently anonymizing your Bitcoin. So,   yeah, thanks for the helpful   subtitle there. Bodegas are small convenience stores.  



[00:52:29] Unknown:

Love to see it.  

[00:52:31] Unknown:

I wanted to say, like, so we're all former New Yorkers. Before we get to the next topic,   like, bodegas,   man, I   I am so bullish on bodegas. Like, the whole economy got completely destroyed.   The bodega   economy   fucking flourished.   They had the best business they ever had. They had their their their like, their you couldn't find toilet paper in the big grocery stores. All the bodegas had toilet paper. They all had the essentials.   They had their cat was standing by, ready to make sure that the mice didn't have corona. Like, they were ready to fucking go.   The bodegas are the most resilient thing about New York City.  



[00:53:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that's well, it it goes into, like, you know, how they got there. I mean,   the people who usually work at the bodegas   are, you   know, usually the owners, typically, and, you know, they're typically,   immigrants and   probably some of the hardest working people in the city.   So, you know, a lot of that goes hand in hand.  

[00:53:32] Unknown:

You know, bodegas are kind of decentralization   incarnate in that, you know, they're all obviously shittier than   Whole Foods, but   they're a hell of a lot more resilient   and, you know,   so that's a big thing. Jane Jacobs,   was this woman, famous urban planner, wrote a book called The Death and Life of   Great American Cities, and she's got like a whole chapter in there about the the importance of a bodega and how it serves as kind of the backbone   to many neighborhoods because it's sort of, it's almost like,   you know, back in the days of old in New York, you would have the guy who ran the bodega, you know, potentially   take delivery of your packages if you were out or hold keys for people. And so it was kind of this little opt in source of trust that that could kinda tie together,   neighborhoods.  

By the way, shout out to Raynard, the fox,   their, missy buddy.   And, yeah, New York is dead long with New York for sure.  

[00:54:34] Unknown:

Raynard calling you out because you said,   bodegas are,  

[00:54:39] Unknown:

are worse than Whole Foods. Yeah. I would debate that. I'm a bougie sellout. I like I like my Whole Foods. I'll defend them to the death.   I'll pay the premium.   Indentured servitude to Jeff Mackey for   good produce selection.  

[00:54:54] Unknown:

Well, he's getting fucking killed if you price his stock in Bitcoin, so he should try and figure out how to turn that company around. I'm I'm kind of worried for him.  

[00:55:01] Unknown:

He would be the guy to do it too. He's kind of a classic libertarian, if I remember correctly. So,   he should definitely consider that.  

[00:55:09] Unknown:

Someone said today, I think it was Justin Moon, don't you dare call me a fucking libertarian.  

[00:55:14] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that's bullshit. I mean, I think you need, and I love Justin.   I think you need   look, like labels exist for a reason, they're a convenience. If I say libertarian to someone, they at least have like a half   hope of knowing directionally   kinda where I stand.   You know, I I don't I don't beef on that term at all. I think it's directionally accurate.  

[00:55:38] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, relatively. I I bet, like, Justin's   definitions of it I mean, things are always shifting. Right? But   it seems to me, like, more of, like, a capital l versus lowercase l libertarian situation  

[00:55:51] Unknown:

where he's from   used the lowercase. He used the lowercase, though.  

[00:55:58] Unknown:

Okay. That's that may be true, but I think it's more so like a response to   the direction the party was trying to pander   towards a lot of, people on the left as far as, you know, certain issues go and trying to distance themselves  

[00:56:14] Unknown:

from a lot of the Republican ideology. Well, yeah. I mean, they're just they're just sort of blue pill, and I think a lot of them in good faith try these tactics to kinda lure in people who are more moderate, maybe even more left.   And I don't fault them for that. I mean, you know, hey, like, my confidence is still kind of low,   in general, and so if that's the tax somebody wants to take, you know, if they're if they're pro freedom, then,   go for it. I mean, do do I think it's more effective to kind of participate in Bitcoin and evangelize that? Yeah. Do I think that there are mutually exclusive things? Like, not, know, so we can have a little bit of that. I mean, I think it's important to be provocative on Twitter. Like, if you're not being provocative on Twitter Yeah. That's true. Should probably do Matt, Matt, aren't aren't you afraid that people are just, like, you know, in certain cases, gonna write you off if you're too brash?  

[00:57:03] Unknown:

I think I think that's the point of fuck you money, you know. Like, lowercase Odell was a little bit worried about people writing me off, and I'm past that point, and I'm just provocative.  

[00:57:13] Unknown:

Look, like, I am 105,000, a 1000000 percent with you for   a lot of the people who are like, a lot of the financial punditry on Twitter. Yes. These people deserve to be relentlessly mocked,   for dismissing Bitcoin at this point if they don't have, like, a shred of uncertainty   in their understanding.   But I think, you know, like,   the general public,   maybe I still have a little bit sympathy   for.  

[00:57:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's a compromise. Like, people are calling me mix caps Odell now. Like, I I like, I respond   I I respond non provocatively   in lowercase to people that I think are actually asking questions, and I provide them resources to go and and learn more.   Like, there's no one size fits all approach, but, I mean, the blue check should be dealt with accordingly.  

[00:57:59] Unknown:

Absolutely. And and nobody can debate that you are extremely caring. You take care of the the nascent pre pointers. You know? I mean, like, no nobody can debate that. And I yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think I think shitposting is great at this point. But Shitposting is is fucking awesome. It's it's it's underappreciated,  

[00:58:15] Unknown:

and and let's be clear here. The richest man in the world figured it out. He's he's enjoying himself.   And I I think it's kind of cool that we live in the timeline   where,   where, like, he just doesn't even have a PR guy anymore. Like, Vanity Fair is, like, reaching out to Musk, and he's just like he's like, fuck you. Say hi to your puppet masters. And it's just like  

[00:58:34] Unknown:

But, you know, it it it all   it is a little bit it's it's a total reflection of our times in that it's a little bit cynical and a little bit destructive that, like, you know, sort of the the person who should be by the numbers, the most productive person in the world is basically, like, representing themselves with shitposts   and it's like the sad it's like this is what money has become, this is what society has become. This is this is fiat discourse, you know. I mean, like,  

[00:59:01] Unknown:

I miss you know, I'm a message board maximalist. I think, like, that was that was the superior form of communication. I think there's there's there's 2 types. There the like, you should be 2 types of people. Okay? You should either be the gentleman   who never is in the newspaper,   you know, and is is is is super successful and just and your your name is never in the newspaper. No one knows who you are, no one knows your opinions, no one knows anything, alternatively, if you are a public figure, you should just embrace the shitpost and have a fucking good time.  

[00:59:35] Unknown:

Yeah. Maybe there's something to that.   I I just wish there were more people out there who were firm in their beliefs and took actual stands, but, you know, I mean, had had a little bit more   of a genuine, articulate,   kinda fleshed out approach. But we we certainly can't expect that from,  

[00:59:52] Unknown:

the leaders of today's markets. Okay. I agree with that. Okay. Let's take you back to Bitcoin. People the freaks are getting a little bit,  

[00:59:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Sorry, freaks.  

[01:00:01] Unknown:

No. It's my fault. They're getting a little impatient with us.   First off, Matthew Miller, yes, feel free to put any questions in the chat you want. We will always we will try our best to get to every question that we see here.   Don't be shy. Just keep throwing questions in there. If we don't bring it up, it it's I probably noticed it, and we will get to it in the future.   Big thing, Taproot activation. Everyone wants to talk about it this week.   I think we have plenty of time to talk about it, to be quite honest,   but, I think it's very important to just keep on discussing it.  

We have this argument between lot equals false and lot equals true.   This idea is lot equals true,   basically signifies   that that that node that is that has this lot lot equals true flag,   will activate Taproot at a given date in the future.   Lottie equals false,   says that, you know, that I'm running the Tap with client. I would like to activate it, but I am not going to could, you know, forcibly do it in the future. I will go with whichever way the network goes. There's 2 arguments   being had similar simultaneously.   What does core ship with as the default? What will you run individually?  

So, you know, James, you're a core dev.   Let's start with you. Well, how do you feel here?  

[01:01:20] Unknown:

Alright. Let me just preface this by saying that I don't have much to say. I'm I am not the guy that you want thinking about consensus parameters.   I'm maybe barely the guy that you want doing, like, the plumbing on,   you know, the coins cache that has,   that that maintains consensus. So I'm a look. I'm a carpenter. I'm not, there there are big brain people who think about this stuff, like Anthony Towns and Suhas Stathour.   It is not me.   That said, my perspective is, look,   lie equals false   is a less presumptive approach because it allows for this idea that   if we start the activation process   and for whatever reason at some point,   during the year, we discover that there is a problem with Taproot, you know, whether that's like a technical implementation   issue   or something in the cryptography.  

It it provides us a way of deescalating,   whereas,   lot equals true is   a much kinda   stronger assumption that, like, yeah, this is absolutely the perfect thing. We know it's right. And I would challenge anybody   who is, like, really strongly advocating for lot equals true.   You know, have you audited Taproot? Like, do you understand that code? Do you do you have do you really have confidence that it's the right thing? Because   I think a lot of core devs   have looked at the code and think we understand it, but,   it's, you know,   why why do you wanna put yourself in a position where   you could potentially   discover some new information   down the line and then not be able to act on it? So   I I don't I'm not that qualified to talk about it, but I guess I'm a lot equals false guy because I just think  

[01:03:08] Unknown:

Wait. Are you lot equals false   for yourself or for core or for both?  

[01:03:14] Unknown:

For both.   For both because   I think look. If it if we get if we get into a situation like with SegWit   where, you know,   we have to start getting adversarial, then   we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.   But, otherwise, I think leaving the door open for the consensus process to just work, leaving the door open   for the possibility of some unforeseen   circumstance,   you know, I I think that sounds pretty wise to me. And, frankly, I mean, I think everybody should go out and read the medium post that Suhas   Dattoor put out. He was Suhas is one of the the founders of Chaincode. He was my coworker for a long time. He's   absolutely   possibly the smartest person that I've ever met,   and   he makes some makes some good points. He's he played a huge role in in Segwit and Segwit's activation. So,   go ahead and read his Medium post, which, you know,  

[01:04:12] Unknown:

I I I think Where can we find that?   Should I shoot you a link a link or something? Yeah. Shoot me a link in the private chat. I'll put it up for everyone else. In the meantime, Evan, respond.  

[01:04:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, this is a crazy topic with a whole bunch of nuance.   It has been, you know, excellent to see the discourse going on on   IRC, especially on Twitter, on people's blog posts, on the Bitcoin dev mailing list.   I really like Luke Dash his   post on the mailing list this week. I thought that was,   very interesting to get his   perspective   fully fleshed out like that.   As I stand right now, I'm still leaning,   Watt Vault.   I probably   would say that I would like to see Corship that way.   Whether I want it to be a configurable option in your bitcoin.com   file, I'm still sort of up in the air about that.  

But, yeah, I just like hearing everyone's arguments.   I haven't definitively,   you know,   decide how I'm gonna signal, but I'm definitely   leaning for sure in the left the the false camp. I sort of understand the true argument in that, you know, the minors have,   already indicated that they're gonna activate it themselves, that they don't have to really. So it's going to have.   But at the same time, you know,   the information we have in front of us could change, and, you know, it's probably best to stay flexible.   So I   but, yeah, the there's these ideas of, like, being sort of, let's say, for lack of a better word, like, equitable and allowing everyone to get their stay in,   sort of goes at   sort of sort of at odds   with the idea of, like, going down a script path and having, like, a clean activation in some way.  



[01:06:06] Unknown:

So   I I have since discovered,   I I mean, I just discovered that Medium,   breaks links if you do it all caps. So   I had to I had to repost it as a non all caps version, and also I've discovered that YouTube I discovered this the other day with my Mooch interview that YouTube also,   the link breaks if you go all caps. So shame on both of you as services, Medium, and YouTube.  

[01:06:32] Unknown:

That's gonna make it look. Your your conversation with the mood. I love that guy, man. He is, he's just It's pretty unreal. Right? Yeah.  

[01:06:40] Unknown:

Okay. Well, I will go back to that. We should have a conversation about that. I would love to have a conversation about that while we have you. But in the meantime, I we knew we we need to talk about Taproot first. You guys are both being little bitches. Okay?   I I I think first off, I think it's important that core ships with lot equals false. I I don't think that we should expect core developers   to, you know, ship software with any kind of meaningful change. Mhmm. This is like a key tenant to Bitcoin.   As as a key tenant to Bitcoin, this idea that you you if if we have auto updates, then the person who issues the auto update is a central point of failure. That person can submit   a malicious update. Right? They can submit an update that adds k y c. I'm being provocative. Or they they could submit an update that increases the 21,000,000 cap. Oh, god forbid.  

So   so we we don't want auto updates, and we don't want updates that   that auto add a change. Even if it's in the future, I I I that I guess that's better than an auto update, you know, like, an update that's, like, says over 6 months, the update will change, but still,   the default should always be no change.   No significant change. No, you know, major change.   So I agree that lot equals false, but I think   what we need is we need basically the threat of Bitcoiners that are potentially going lot equal true. Right? Mhmm. So I I think I think for myself,   like, I will probably you know, my node will probably be lot equals true.  



[01:08:13] Unknown:

Why is it clear here? How how certain are you in the change set?  

[01:08:17] Unknown:

Well, see, here's the thing, James. Like, I haven't I I can't I can't verify for myself that the Taproot code is good.   But I, like, I can I can check that you guys like, I there there's been   an amazing amount of due diligence on this fucking,   you know,   addition to Bitcoin? Agree. There's been an insane amount,   and at at some point, you know, and it, like, kinda comes down with the corona stuff. Like, at some point,   like, there will always be risk. Like, there'll always be risk, and it's important to the miners know that there's, like, this transinate transgenic   minority that might be activating the shit regardless, and you need to be timely about it. But I still think that,   officially,   we should let the miners, like, approve the change. But in the back of their mind, they should always be thinking,   you know, like, oh, these dick wads are fucking gonna go lot equal true, and we gotta be concerned about that. Right? Like, it's it's important for that. And as a public Bitcoiner, as someone   who honest like, I I broadcast   7 hours a week.  

Like, it's important that that they realize that this guy is is is one of those one of those people. Right. Right. But I think it's and I hey. Look. 100% agree with that sentiment.  

[01:09:37] Unknown:

I think it's important   there's there's a bigger point that's important to emphasize, which is   just because I'm signaling lot equals false today   does not mean I will not signal lot equals true tomorrow.  

[01:09:49] Unknown:

And I think that's because I just because I signal lot equals true doesn't even mean I'm running Taproot.  

[01:09:55] Unknown:

Right.   Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So there's that messy aspect of it as well. You know? But I I think, look, the reality is, I mean, this whole the whole lot equals whatever discussion tires me out, because I think in reality,   we've basically purged,   you know, like,   everybody who bounced   who is gonna bounce, bounced back, you know, in in segwit times. And so   this time around,   I really I will really be surprised if we have,  

[01:10:26] Unknown:

any contention over the I I think I think this is a non contentious   change, but I think it's important that we set up we have to we have to set   I don't want to argue about activation method every time we have to activate something. What I want to do is   I wanna have a clear activation path,   and I like this idea that we have a single   we have we have a single variable.   You're either you're either pushing it or you're you're going along with the the the group or you're doing neither. So you have you have 3 choices. You don't upgrade,   your lot equals false, or your lot equals true. I like this as a concept   for all future soft forks.  

And I think it's important that we set up this this   process   so that in any future soft fork, we don't have to fucking go through how is the activation method gonna happen. We could just go through,   are you not updating? Are you lot false? Are you lot true? And we can just proceed from that point of view.   Mhmm.   Does that make sense? Does it does it like, does is that is that a valid   thought process?  

[01:11:34] Unknown:

Well, and to be clear for everybody listening, like, lot equals false does not mean you don't want Taproot.   It just means you don't want a mandatory lock   in after a certain time threshold if the the required threshold of miners isn't signaling. Live false means you're ready for tap root, but you're not gonna force shit.  

[01:11:52] Unknown:

Right? Right. Yeah. It's like difference really between,   miner activated software and a user activated software. Whereas l o t true is the flag day event that   does UASF   part 2.   And, really, it comes down to whether you thought that   the user activated soft fork in 2017   should be treated as a gold standard for upgrades.   And, you know, as someone who   is leaning towards LOT equals false and probably gonna signal that way, like, I I don't think it was. I I think,   there were a lot of things that were done in a rush manner because of the circumstances. I think a lot of things can   could have been done,   much more cleanly.  

And, you know, we also need to consider that that was a contentious upgrade that led us to, you know, a plethora of forks.   So,   you know, it it it's it's crazy in that, you know, a lot of people still have the PTSD   from   the last upgrade in in 2017,   and, you know, that's why people are a little bit on edge. But, you know, generally speaking,   we should be a bit more relaxed. And,   you know,   let let them let the miners take the first step. And if they don't, we're not really,   putting ourselves into a corner. We always have the option of turning LOD,  

[01:13:12] Unknown:

a trip. No. Okay. So so this is where where I, like   so I fall in the middle   because I I don't think, like, off the bat we go, you know, I don't think this idea that we should just   I I I think it's important that Bitcoin development is always conservative.   Right?   And I think that   we need   to   prioritize   no change over change in every fucking situation. This is a feature, not a bug. It's hard to change   by default.   I I I think it's important to realize   at the same time though,   so so so so with that being said, I'm not I don't think we should railroad any kind of change. And and and and, you know,   Marty's a brother to me. The freaks have heard me week after week for the last 2 years,   or more than 2 years with Marty. And Marty has this tendency sometimes. He's like, let's just fucking railroad this thing.  

Let's just fucking make it happen. And you have to be careful about that because, you know, we could railroad something that's bad. Like, how do we know if it's, you know,   you know, what is a good change versus what is a bad change?   At the same time, like,   we have to we have to be careful not to be fucking cucks about it. Right? Like, we have to like like, peep like, there needs to be   a bit of a backbone here. And I   so so I think off the bat, like, we let the miners signal. And I think I think the miners are just gonna fucking activate this thing, and then we won't even have to it won't even mind. And I   I actually think that there's a good chance that the freaks know I do have a bet where either me or Marty has to pay a million sats to, the Human Rights Foundation,   a great cause,   to,   if if it gets if if Tab Root gets activated January 1st, Marty says it's gonna activate before January 1st. I say after.  

Yeah, James. You're good to go. Just fucking go for it.   And,   I I say I say afterwards.   But at the same time,   like, there's there's a very good chance that miners just activate this, and we just, like, fucking get it done with, and we don't even have to fucking you know, we don't even have to do this dick contest. I just think it's important that the minors realize my point is, I guess,   I guess my point is of this long rambling is that I think it's important that the minors know that that we'll fucking  

[01:15:37] Unknown:

you will fucking play ball if you have to play a ball. Right? Yeah. So on TFTC this week, Matt, I think you had an analogy where l o d true   is,   is the user pointing a gun to the miner's head and saying,   hey. You need to happen. Right? And and in this analogy, what you want is that everyone to be packing,   if   need be, if push come to show, but not to do it out the gate. Right. I I I I think there's people that are, like,  

[01:16:07] Unknown:

guns are bad, and then there's people, like, we should point the gun just at the minors. And I'm, like, we should have the guns loaded, and we'll point them at the minors if necessary. Right?  

[01:16:15] Unknown:

Exactly. James just came back to our discussions, like, why why are we talking about guns?  

[01:16:20] Unknown:

So, James, James, my metaphor state is talking about guns. Yeah. So, James That is true.  

[01:16:26] Unknown:

James, my metaphor was I mean, you you have you have a situation where you have people that are, like, guns are bad, then you have people that are, like, we should just point a gun at the miners' heads and say, like, you have to activate this shit, and then I think I stand in the point of view where, like, we should have the gun loaded, we should be ready to aim it at the miners if we have to. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my thing is, to to overextend the metaphor is, like, I I conceal carry, and so  

[01:16:51] Unknown:

conceal carry. Like, we you know, you you I hate quoting politicians, but, like, speak softly, carry a big stick. Don't, you know, try and Oh, yeah. You quoted a politician who's been dead for, like, a 100 years. Yeah. Good, you know. Yeah. I I I was gonna say something that probably wasn't good to say on the radio, but,   but yeah.   So I, you know, I I guess, yeah, Conceal Carry, your your lie equals true.  

[01:17:17] Unknown:

So we had a question in the comments about why Luke thought that l o t,   false was a bug.   James, did you get to read Luke's post this week from,   like, Sunday?  

[01:17:30] Unknown:

I   I read, like, a few responses. I I kinda skimmed the thread as I do most mailing list posts.   Luke's a little bit delusional.   He   makes some pretty insane claims in there.   And in general, he like like, with assuming UTXO, he, like, multiple times   misconstrued   the proposal   as being, like, hard coding checkpoints or something.   And I I've had to explain to him numerous times,   like, the actual nature of the proposal,   and each time he's gone, oh, okay. Yeah. That sounds fine.   So Luke's a little bit delusional, to be honest.   I I don't think I don't think what he wrote holds much weight in my book.  



[01:18:17] Unknown:

Yeah. I think he had some concerns about   if we have users with both LOT true and LOT false activated, there's possibilities   of,   the false chain being overtaken by the true chain   as far as work goes. And, he was also concerned,   in a nutshell about, like, the incentives   or sort of trying to second guess,   the activation   and,   you know,   just open up the avenue for users to act in, like, an unruly way and, you know, try to hold great hostage. That that's what it pretty much was in a nutshell.  

[01:18:54] Unknown:

I think, you know and I'm I'm glad people are raising that point. I I he made some claim.   I'll have to dig up the email. That was just, like, really, like, kind of ridiculous.   But, but, no, you look and and I think it's good.   Luke is, like, a good fixture to have in the community because he is a complete hardliner   whether whether it sort of makes sense or not. And, I mean, he's kind of a hardliner for his own stuff, like, for a while. I don't know how much you guys have looked in the loop, but, like, for a while, he was all on the tonal number system,  

[01:19:25] Unknown:

and I think, which which is, like, basically some alternate scheme. He's still on Tonal. Okay. He's still on Tonal. Yeah. And I think they Tonal is the only number system that that is a real number system. Every other number system is a shitcoin.  

[01:19:39] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Is it 16 or something?  

[01:19:43] Unknown:

It might be 16, and then and then there are weird   names  

[01:19:47] Unknown:

for each number in the in the columns. I don't get it at all. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.  

[01:19:53] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's how I would characterize some of what loop believes. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. I'm glad I'm glad he participates in Bitcoin. I'm I am a pro Easier to to  

[01:20:04] Unknown:

to do in a computer system because, you know, it's it's a multiple of of 2. I don't know. Like I mean, shout out to him. He he I mean  

[01:20:14] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. We could break. It's a lot slower. It's a little bit it's a little bit offensive because he's been complaining about not getting developer funding and, you know, I've been sending him money every month for the last 8 months to 9 months. Oh, yeah.   Through my my GitHub Sponsors,   Bill, which is uses dirty fiat to be to be honest. But,   I think I actually both I fund both of you guys.   Do you both have GitHub Sponsors? I definitely fund them. Yeah. You do. Thank you, man.   And,   I mean, number goes down on that if you price them sats, like, the amount of money I've been giving you guys.   But,   Appreciate it, Matt. Yeah. But but but Luke is, like, one of the most successful Bitcoin developers on GitHub Sponsors,   and he always complains about not getting funding. But cheers to him. He just got a big a big funding around from Wasabi Wallet and Bull Bitcoin,   So that's good to see, and that's where his work on Bitcoin Knots,   which is basically a fork of Bitcoin Core,   that he maintains   that also has   a blacklist implemented,   and,   he it serves it serves Neutrino filters when the I think Bitcoin Core now serves neutrino filters, but that was a big thing for a while that that NOS was the only one that did.  



[01:21:29] Unknown:

Hell, yeah.   So, yeah, congrats to Luke. It's awesome to see. Glad to have  

[01:21:35] Unknown:

Just to just to it's important for the freaks to realize that American HODL is not supporting   Bitcoin developers the way he should be. So every time he flexes, it's important to let him know that he should support developers more. Oh, that's funny. I, yeah. I hadn't realized.   That's a new flex. The new flex shouldn't be, like, posting your stack. It should be posting how much you're contributing to Bitcoin developer.  

[01:21:59] Unknown:

What?   Hey. Just trying to give back,   you know, into the community however you can.  

[01:22:07] Unknown:

Yeah.   I mean, the the only reason I contribute to you guys is so that you have to come on the podcast.  

[01:22:13] Unknown:

So,  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

James,   cold core. We had we had Craig Raw, the fucking   notorious Craig Raw on the podcast last week. This guy is a fucking boss. Big assort dependencies.   Yeah. He's talking about adversarial environment. He's talking about what is cold storage.   Do you even you your cold storage is fucking hot storage. You think it's cold, but it's not cold.   Why cold core?   You know,   show us cold core. Why are you working on it? Why should people even consider it a, you know   why is what you're doing over there important?  

[01:22:50] Unknown:

Yeah. So the fact of the matter is I really don't give a shit whether anybody actually uses cold core because I built it for myself.   I,   you know, used to I I I love Coldcard, which is NDK's,   offline Bitcoin hardware wallet,   and I use that personally.   And I really hated   having to set up a bunch of infrastructure,   like Electrum personal server,   using an Electrum client itself,   Because Electrum I mean, Electrum's like a nice piece of software in in some sense and that it has a lot of features, it's pretty well written,   but it's a massive project. There's there's a lot of lines of code and a lot of dependencies, and it pulls a bunch of stuff in.  

And,   increasingly, these software supply chain attacks have gotten more popular where,   you know,   if you run a major software project, you have what are called dependencies, and and basically, that's just pulling in other people's code,   so that you don't have to write it yourself. So for example, if I write any Bitcoin code, I'm probably gonna have to run the shot 256 function. Well, you know, I don't really wanna rewrite the shot 256 function, so I'm gonna pull in some dependency where that's already written for me.   And over the past few years, we've just seen an increasing number of of attacks,   related to   somebody,   you know, finding so so you can go out, download the source code for some wallet,   analyze the dependency graph of what they're using, and then find, you know, some tiny project   which is like a dependency of a dependency of a dependency,   take over that project, you know, go to the maintainer who's probably, like, overworked and, you know, last updated the code 6 months from now or 6 months previous, and say, hey. I wanna take over your project. I'm gonna be a good maintainer. And many people are totally willing to do this.  

And then you just embed some malicious code that says, hey. If I'm running under these circumstances,   exfiltrate,   you know, the encrypted proof keep file to this to this endpoint.   And then all of a sudden, bam, you know, you're you're you're compromised without even having realized it. And this is an academic because it actually happened to   BitPay's copay wallet,  

[01:25:08] Unknown:

a few years ago. Yeah. So they got fucking wrecked.  

[01:25:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's it it it was not good, and so anytime I was running Electrum,   you know, I would do so in a container, I would, like, take all these these really   sophisticated measures that I couldn't expect, and that that I I myself could barely do consistently because they were so complicated,   And I'm a fucking software engineer, so it's like, how could I expect   regular Bitcoin users to to do this kind of stuff   just to have some,   you know,   vague feeling of of relative security. And so I said, okay. There's gotta be there's gotta be a better way.   And so I I looked into it, and if you want to send and receive Bitcoin,   you really don't need that much. So Electrum personal server is doing a lot of heavy lifting   that's basically amounts to indexing the entire blockchain and, you know, having having an address index on hand for kind of any conceivable address you might want, when the reality is that you really probably only care about your own wallet. And so   given that fact,   Bitcoin Core's modern RPC interface now since version 0.19   lets you do pretty much everything you need to maintain your own coins without having to   have this separate index and and all this extra software.  

So,   basically,   I wanted to write something that I could use myself and feel pretty good about and and not feel like I had spend half a day, like, resurrecting the setup whenever I wanted to do anything.   And then I wanted to make something that would be sort of an entry point for   people   who are technical, but but don't have experience maybe per se on the command line.   Because I think   as things go forward, there's just in the same way that everybody needs to become acquainted with public key cryptography and key management,   I think people are gonna need to become acquainted with the command line because in many ways, it's really just the only way to be   more sure of what software you're actually running.  

And the way that I learned the command line in Linux more generally is,   in high school, you know, I was setting up media servers and trying to run Linux, and I was just, like, basically   copy pasting commands that, you know, I'd read in tutorials and and kinda like learning the command line. So,   I wanted to kind of provide an avenue for people who are technical but maybe don't know Linux,   to start working in the command line. And I figured that   cold core would be a cool way to do that, while simultaneously   minimizing,   the dependencies there. And so there is, you can either use   a command line interface, or there's a little graphical interface, but within the terminal. So there's yeah. So you're flashing a screenshot of that up right there.  

And and it feels kinda graphical the graphical interfaces in the terminal are, like, super happy. Yeah. Exactly. You know, you you just you feel it feels cool using that stuff.   And,   yeah. I I I'm a big fan of that kind of thing. I mean, even being a jaded software engineer, so it gives me a little glimmer of, like,   of,   joy when I crack open a terminal interface like that. So   I wanted to write something that that was cool, that was fun to use, but very, very simple,   very readable,   0 dependencies.  

[01:28:27] Unknown:

Just Is there 0 dependencies?  

[01:28:29] Unknown:

All here here are the dependencies.   A Python interpreter, which which every modern operating system ships with, and Bitcoin Core.   Those are literally the only only dependencies. There's no package manager. There's no install process.   You literally just clone this single script,   have Bitcoin Core running, and then run this thing in a terminal, and and you're off to the races.  

[01:28:53] Unknown:

Indeed.   Yeah, James. I've used it it for,   for Test Wallet, and,   yeah, it's a pretty smooth experience.   I was really impressed with it. I I really love how,   you know, light it is and, you know, not having any dependencies is like a huge win there. So right now, it's single sig. Right?  

[01:29:16] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:29:17] Unknown:

You you have plans to to do multisig too? I do have plans to do multisig.  

[01:29:23] Unknown:

I've gotta think about that and how to make that flow,   you know, kind of tractable and easy for people.   And that's gonna require a little bit more code.   So I'm trying to think of if I can do it in a way that it's like sort of a an opt in plug in because, obviously, that's gonna add some complexity and some code, and so I'm trying to figure out a way where you could just kind of layer that on top of the basic cold core.   But, yeah, that's that is something I'm thinking about. But, I mean, you're integrating directly into h w I. Right? No. I'm not even using h w I. That h h w I requires   dependencies.  



[01:29:59] Unknown:

Oh, is it?   I there yeah. There are no dependencies in this map. So so it's only is it only it's not only is it single sync, but it's only cold card?  

[01:30:09] Unknown:

Only cold card right now. I my claim is that if there is That's fine that's fine by me. Yep. If there's another open source air gap wallet, I will support it. I will build in the support. Well, I mean someone sends a wallet. You can it already probably supports foundation devices if they ever ship because it's a clone. Right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So yeah. But the RINA cold cold card's the only hardware that's that that meets those criteria, and so that's the only one I'm gonna supporting. You should you should ship a separate package and just call it clone core, and it's the exact thing.  

[01:30:40] Unknown:

And just, like, as a troll, that like, that's the foundation devices one.  

[01:30:44] Unknown:

James, how about the Spectre device that they've got over? What's it called?  

[01:30:51] Unknown:

They call it Spectre, don't they?  

[01:30:53] Unknown:

I think so. What I think Spectre hardware wallet or whatever.  

[01:30:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Have you taken a look at that one yet? Crypto advance. Right? I think I skimmed the read me, and it is it's a DIY assembly process. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But they also sell it. They sell it prebuilt. Okay. I should I should give that a shot.  

[01:31:10] Unknown:

Absolutely. It probably it probably I mean, it just uses PSPTs. It probably just works. I'm I'm sure. This is Yeah. I'm sure it probably does. As far as cold core is concerned, it's just taking the, it's taking a non signed PSVT,   and then and then oh, no. It's constructing a non signed PSVT, and then it's taking a signed PSVT and broadcasting it. Right? Like, that's it. Ex that that is literally it. The only way to parse specific thing is that we we parse your XPUB descriptor   from a file that the cold card will output, but, like, that is so trivial to to add for other ones. If they use the same standard as cold card, which is a very easy standard to follow, and they just provide you with an unsigned PSVT, I mean, they they have you construct an unsigned PSVT and then provide you with a signed PSVT,   then they're compatible.  

Yep. Exactly. Which is really what we should expect from all hardware wallets. We shouldn't expect   fucking James to change this software.   We should expect them to just comply with an existing standard.   James, there's a question from Ed in the audience.   Does do we need Bitcoin Core to be running locally to use Coldcore?  

[01:32:17] Unknown:

Mister Ed,   no. You don't. Well, so let me put it this way. You need Bitcoin Core running   somewhere where the RPC interface is accessible, and that can be via the network. So what I do personally   local. It needs to be on you know, it could be,   you know, what I do is, I have a a Bitcoin core instance running in a certain location,   and I'm on my own WireGuard VPN.  

[01:32:41] Unknown:

And so when I'm remote, I can access that Bitcoin core instance and that's going To the plebs to the plebs, it can work on my node if you're in the same Wi Fi. Like, you're in the same Wi Fi, you're in the same network. That means as as far as we're concerned, that's what local means. It doesn't mean that's on the same computer. Right? Yep. Yeah. So you need an instance of Bitcoin Core that you can access.   That's on your network. It's it's somewhere on your network. Network, on your Wi Fi. Yeah. Exactly.   Evan.  



[01:33:12] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   it's   a dope project. We're really liking so far, James.  

[01:33:17] Unknown:

Thanks, guys. Yeah. I I like it too. I use it personally for my main net funds. Maybe, you know, I   it's it's honestly, there's I mean, I'm   there's no formal release yet, so caveat emptor all that stuff. But, like, there's honestly not that much I can fuck up because   core is really doing all the heavy lifting,   you know,   I so there's there's not a lot that can go wrong there, but, you know, check it out, give it a read. If you know Python  

[01:33:45] Unknown:

Look. I agree. If if you're if everything you're saying is true, then it'd be suspicious if you weren't using it yourself.   So You gotta stand under your own bridge for sure. Yeah. That's what I appreciate about you. At least when you got rack trading, you did it yourself.  

[01:34:00] Unknown:

There is a shabby nobility.   Yeah. By yourself.  

[01:34:04] Unknown:

James, it's it's important that after you did that that I I proceed to give you shit about this for years. Like, it's gonna be a long time. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure your kid your kid is gonna rib you about this. Like, I'll I'll make sure that he under win.  

[01:34:17] Unknown:

I'd be disappointed, man.  

[01:34:23] Unknown:

So, I mean, I Evan, do you have anything else to discuss here about cold card cold core, or should we move to the next? Oh, it's a great product. I just wanna see people,  

[01:34:31] Unknown:

Project. Iterate on it more and, you know, get a couple more contributors and down the road, get some multisig. I mean, someone asked lower in the comments whether,   we prefer Wasabi   or Electron. And I think for a single sig wallet, this blows the hell out of both of them. It's it's amazing. It's a great solution. I like I like the idea of cold core. I mean, I like the idea of core plus  

[01:34:56] Unknown:

whatever you're using to interact with your cold card because this idea   that   I mean, you can use cold core in a prune node mode. Right, James?   Yeah. So, like, so, like, max, you're holding 10 gigs of space. And, and, like, honestly, like, if you're gonna be your own bank, like, I think you can find a computer that has 10 gigs of capacity. Mhmm. Like, that's fucking ridiculous. And I think you should find a computer that has 10 gigs of SSD capacity,   so fucking just fucking do it. And you just have core just straight up there, and you you have whatever you're doing to interact with your fucking keys directly in between,  

[01:35:30] Unknown:

and you make it happen. It's worth it. Yep. So Ed's asking here, does it use the same WAL format as core?   Ed,   the answer there is that your obviously, your keys still live on the cold card and they don't, you know,   the cold core doesn't know anything about your private keys, which is why I feel comfortable kinda recommending it.   What it does know about is your XPUB, which, obviously, if that leaks out, then there's some privacy implications. But,  

[01:35:56] Unknown:

but and it does use it with an air gap. It should be an air it should be a not not air gap, but it should be a dedicated computer just for that. Right?  

[01:36:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, to be honest, I use it on my personal workstation because cold core will keep your XPUB encrypted,   by way of,   the pass utility or GPG.  

[01:36:15] Unknown:

So Oh, so you provide a password and that's encrypted by the password? Yeah. Exactly.  

[01:36:20] Unknown:

So I I do that. I feel I feel fine with that. So someone u t s 9 asked,  

[01:36:25] Unknown:

does cold card   why can't I just use Bitcoin core qt anyway?   Because you can't use Bitcoin core with the cold card unless you use HWI, which has a bunch of dependencies. Right?  

[01:36:37] Unknown:

Yeah. There's, like, a long sequence of RPC commands that you can run if you know your XPOD descriptor to to do the right thing in core and get equivalent behavior. But, you know, frankly, it's just not as good as good an experience.   So I I prefer to use something that at least has a little bit of an interface and, you know, I I think the reality is, like, asking people to run these really complicated RPC commands probably It's never gonna happen. Yeah. It's, like, 7 people. It's, like, 15 people are gonna fucking do that shit. Yep. Yep. Ed, that was Literally. The question because in a sense, I didn't get around to this, but in a sense, you're sort of right because   what cold core does is it creates a watch only wallet in core   that corresponds to your XPub descriptor. So the keys the keys still live in in the cold card, obviously,   but you do have,   a Bitcoin Core watch only wallet that's watching your funds. And then and then CoolCore just, like, backs up to that.  



[01:37:33] Unknown:

I mean, that was a fantastic question. If you wanna add if you wanna know stupid questions, like, go on to Clubhouse. You can see some stupid questions over there.  

[01:37:41] Unknown:

Very good question. They're not dumb questions.  

[01:37:44] Unknown:

And then no question   it freaks. If you ask a dumb question, we just won't answer it. But I I I really do I I've fallen the camp of there's very few dumb questions. I I will not say there are no dumb questions.   There are no dumb questions. I've had enough of this this India pale hard seltzer that I'll entertain pretty much anything. So There we go. That's what I'm talking about. James, I don't know if you're aware, but we kind of go hard on this on this show. So I I hope you're ready. I I assume nothing else,  

[01:38:13] Unknown:

you know, if you're involved.  

[01:38:17] Unknown:

Okay. I mean, I   look. I'm I'm pretty excited about your project here. I think it's,   it's an important one. I'm glad you're working on it.  

[01:38:26] Unknown:

Thanks, man. It was like I said, it was very self serving. And,   at this point, I'm my own satisfied customer, so there's a little bit of work to be done on the sending interface, but, realistically, you shouldn't ever be sending anyway. So  

[01:38:40] Unknown:

Yeah, man. Just really cool to see. It seems like the best projects in the space for people scratching their own engine.   It's great that they use   and now treat us to the product as well. So awesome tool to add to the article.  

[01:38:53] Unknown:

So, I mean, I that's, like, a question that, like, the majority of of of the people who join us here on dispatch are open source,   contributors,   maintainers,   just in general developers   that are contributing to open source software.   I'm trying to be more   you know, I've I've been trying to scratch that edge. It's been hard for me, to be quite honest, in terms of,   my understanding of code.   But on one side, like, that I've been very focused on is is is trying to facilitate,   funding of   just open source development in general. And then this idea that free open source   software doesn't have an easy monetization model, this idea that   that that that that people should go for closed source   because they can profit easier than if they go open source   is is a very dangerous mindset. It's a mindset that I wholeheartedly disagree with, which is interesting.  

You know, we had the whole libertarian conversation earlier. It's interesting because,   some people might call it socialist, but I don't think it's socialist. I think this I I think it's viral. It's like this idea that you have open source,   code   that can do all these fucking different things, and you can mold it into all the all these other different things is super powerful. Like, it can't be stopped. It's like this this   this amazing viral fucking loop.   So now that I have both of you guys here, and, I mean, you've dedicated yourselves I mean, you both have separate jobs that, you know, pay your fiat paycheck and and pay your fiat rent.   But but you both have dedicated yourselves to open source development.  

I'm really curious and and and   full disclosure, this is something that I'm working on with   with James himself,   to to create a foundation to support,   free open source software going forward. So it's a it's a very   it's a very important topic to me. It's a topic that I I plan to focus on even heavy heavier going on in the future.   But but as 2 open source developers,   I'm curious where you stand here. Like,   should should people be concerned   that there's no real straightforward business model for open stores? Should people be like like, she'll like, should we care about open sort like, why should we care about open source?  

[01:41:17] Unknown:

Go for it, Adam.  

[01:41:19] Unknown:

Well, you know, when you're dealing with   something that could be   as profound and important to you as your life savings,   you wanna have some assurances   as as to   what code that those keys are passing through.   So,   in our space,   I think being open source is imperative, and I would   never ever consider,   running a   proprietary   closed source   wallet with any serious amount of funds. And there's simply no need to.   As far as,   you know,   monetary models and and funding models for open source projects,   there's no denying that, you know, just going off donations alone is not really feasible   for a project that can be done that needs full time   support and attention. I mean, it's just not gonna work that way.  

But,   I think a lot of people are messing with,   you know, new ways of thinking of it, you know, not just charging for the software, but let letting that stuff all be open and open stores and have contributors contribute to it.   But I I think the important thing is gonna be the other service you could potentially,   support if it's   a or provide if it's, like, a big service. And I think samurai is really paving the way for that and, you know, have doing a good job   as far as, you know, making money off the Whirlpool fees while   continuing to iterate on all these great tools. But,   you know, it's not an easy,   answer,   as to, like, you know, keeping these things running. And, you know, while developers are trying to figure out what they could provide, how they could bring in money to keep the project going, I I really do think that,   you know,   user donations are very important.  



[01:43:16] Unknown:

So, I mean, to just be clear here for the caption,   I people on Twitter see the caption   automatically without hearing the sound, so they're gonna they're more likely to click in if they they see that caption.   So it's a little bit of a clickbait. It's a little bit of a clickbait.   And for the for the listeners of the podcast, my caption is open source devs will have fun staying poor.   James, do you disagree with the statement on the subtitles?  

[01:43:43] Unknown:

Alright. Well, I got a few things to knock out before I I get around to that. Number 1,   big thanks to Cantion John   for the funny comment about cold core reminding him of old computer RPGs. That's totally what I was going for.   Oh, yeah. Nice. And and a quick note about, Matt, what you said, you know, don't   nobody should feel self conscious for not   being an open source dev,   because, Matt, I I think in many ways you do   analogous work, but with wet code instead of dry code, which ultimately   you can make the argument pretty credibly   that that's socializing these ideas and making sure there's a   community and distribution of information   is as important as the sort of raw innovation itself in the code.  

So you're doing God's work, man, and, I don't I it doesn't matter if you never write a a live code for Bitcoin, you know, that that goes open   at all. If you keep doing the work you're doing, that's you know?   And is there more of a contribution than a lot of the the code that's written? So   so I I think, you know, there are lots of ways to be a sort of quote unquote open source participant in Bitcoin.   You know? Yeah. If you have a day job and and you're busy and you are sympathetic to Bitcoin and you wanna contribute somehow, hey, funding funding projects that you believe in, that's a great way to go.   And I think, thankfully,   we're gonna have some really great mechanisms for doing that. You know, I I do use GitHub Sponsors,   and that's,   honestly, the when I opened that up and   threw my page up, I was I was overwhelmed with the response. And, you know, within   something like 3 days, I had kind of met the the goal that I had set out to raise just to to do nights and weekends work on core. So,   that's a really cool avenue, and I I have found that   the corporations   here are at least give a lot of lip service to supporting,   development and in many cases, follow through on that.  

Coinbase   is still lagging a little bit in my estimation despite making a lot of noise about it.   But didn't they did they did they fund somebody recently, or are they still just kind of saying, we'll we'll fund somebody?   Do you guys know?  

[01:46:03] Unknown:

I don't like they supported someone,  

[01:46:06] Unknown:

or no. They haven't funded shit.  

[01:46:09] Unknown:

I think oh, maybe they supported ProMag, but then ProMag withdrew. But any any the point is that, like, look, I mean The point is is that they're going public at a higher,  

[01:46:18] Unknown:

like, probably, like, a $150,000,000,000   valuation, and they've done shit a whole for a Bitcoin result.   And they've only accumulated a $130,000,000   worth of Bitcoin,   which is honestly, like, poor man's status compared to MicroStrategy.   Some random ads   some random as dotcomcomputercompany  

[01:46:35] Unknown:

has more Bitcoin than Coinbase, so they they can have fun staying for it. Oh, man. It was Yeah. I'll sign off on that. I mean, as you guys know, as as Matt knows, I have a very, like,   split brain take on Coinbase because in many ways, you know, I have, like, Coinbase nostalgia   for being one of the first exchanges. I was wrong. I apologize.  

[01:46:56] Unknown:

For what?  

[01:46:58] Unknown:

I googled,   one of my favorite Bitcoin developers got funded by Coinbase.   Who? You were right about ProMag, but the other guy, I feel bad about.   0xb10c?   Oh, yeah. That was   Dude's a fucking boss. Like, I met him once   at, New York City BitDevs. He's like, I love that guy. Like, he's fucking awesome. Alright. Well, they're on Coinbase then for for starting to step up. No. No. No. No. Fuck Coinbase, but I like that guy.   And I I also apologize for being wrong about them develop like, we we the only reason they did it was because Brian Armstrong got called out for being a racist prick and and supporting,   selling   surveillance software to US government agencies   way below market,   pretending   that he needed to recoup costs even though they made over a $1,000,000,000   worth of revenue last year. But, like, oh, they have to recoup the cost of, like, $150,000   deal with the US government. That's that's pretty scary. So then he went on Peter McCormick's podcast,   and, like, when Peter asked me, he goes, Matt, like, how can I pressure this guy?  

Like, the only really tangible thing you can do is, like, oh, well, like, have him support Bitcoin core development. So, like, like, he did, like, the least minimum, you know, amount that he can fucking do. Mhmm. But, you know, Super Serial is raising a good point there  

[01:48:23] Unknown:

that, you know, fundamentally, look, in the early days, in the early years, Coinbase   made it easy for people to buy Bitcoin, certainly easier than going to Mt. Gox, which, you know, didn't look out for the people who did that. So I I do have Coinbase nostalgia. I hope they   reclaim their greatness and delisk all the shit coins and you know? But, but I'm not holding my breath.  

[01:48:45] Unknown:

Yeah. You'd be holding your breath for a long fucking time.  

[01:48:49] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:48:51] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I agree. Look. I bought, you know, I bought a lot of Bitcoin off of Coinbase, and,   they sent it all to the US government   and then proceeded to   focus on on Chickcoins. I I I just wish Coinbase focused more on   I just wish I just wish Coinbase focused as much on privacy as they did on registering   illegal securities. Like, I just wish, like, that was, like Yeah. There was, like, a balancing act there, but instead. But, anyway, I'm I'm glad they that they finally,   after all these years,   contribute to Bitcoin development.   And and I will applaud anyone who does that. I've said this on the podcast. We've applauded Okcoin and   bunch of other shitcoin exchanges,   for their their funding. And I think it's it's extra important that we do applaud that because,   otherwise, we'll never have it. Right? Mhmm.  

Yeah. Social pressure works, freaks. Social pressure works. They tell us, you know, Matt, you're just being antisocial.   Like, why can't you just tow the party line? Why are you being a dickhead about things? And then they fucking do things because I'm a dickhead. You know? Like, if I didn't have the meme that was, like, open finance and, like, defy and, like, you just have, like, fucking   the DEA rating you with assault rifles, like, open like, they probably would not have funded core development. Like, you have to you have to pressure them. They feel it. They absolutely feel the pressure. If you think that these human beings that run these corporations do not feel pressure   based on social media, Like, you're living in a whole different world. Like, it doesn't matter how rich you are. That notification ring comes in.  



[01:50:33] Unknown:

Yep. Yep. Yep. No. I agree. I mean, you look. I think there are individuals in these companies, maybe even in certain cases, the founders who do feel personal   desire to fund development. But fundamentally, at the end of the day, it's a marketing exercise.   It's a marketing expenditure for the company.   And so that social pressure is really important.  

[01:50:53] Unknown:

Absolutely.   End of the day, it all comes down to your incentives, and,   you know, we gotta do our part to, like, you guys have incentives to do the right things that push the space and direction that you wanna see.   So keep being toxic, Matt.  

[01:51:08] Unknown:

I'm not toxic at all. I'm I'm welcoming.   I'm just welcoming in a   a unquestionable way.  

[01:51:17] Unknown:

Toxic used to be the have fun staying poor. That was, like, the have fun staying poor of 2018.  

[01:51:22] Unknown:

I never liked toxic, to be honest. And I have fun staying poor, I'm, like, a little bit questionable about. I love have fun staying poor.  

[01:51:31] Unknown:

I I and as long as you don't abuse it and tell someone who's actually poor and you use it and responsibly,  

[01:51:38] Unknown:

it's best. Well, I I mean, I think it's pretty hilarious when you tell, like, a rich person to have fun staying. Abs absolutely.  

[01:51:44] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. That's understand.  

[01:51:49] Unknown:

But but but   on that note, like, I just   yeah. I I mean, I I think the most powerful thing about Have Fun Staying Poor is this idea that   we will never have enough Bitcoin, so we have to have fun staying poor. Like, people think it's an outward meme,   but really, I think it's an inward meme. It's something that I have to just accept as a person   that I will have to have fun staying poor because I will never have enough Bitcoin.  

[01:52:23] Unknown:

I I don't know, man. I think   I think anybody involved at this stage of the game is is is probably gonna have enough Bitcoin.   Yo, dude. I'm just trying to have fun staying poor. Can you just fucking close all that? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to get in the way of you having fun staying poor.   Throw throw out the big h. Sean Stack, and thank you.  

[01:52:43] Unknown:

What did Sean say? Sean's the boy.   This is h. Freaking their h. Wait. Oh, he's gonna   there's no way you you freaks can't make it happen. Like, you're just not organized enough. There's not enough of you in here, and and you just can't   like, I wish you could. It's a shame you can't. I hope that at 75 k, you'll have the resolve to do it. Unfortunately, the freaks have gotten weaker,   because the price dipped a little bit. Here we go. We got an a.  

[01:53:11] Unknown:

Oh, the a's are easy. The a's always come. It's right around the, like, s's that you start to peer out. Mhmm.  

[01:53:18] Unknown:

Mhmm. Yeah. Evan, you got something to talk about? I'm trying to  

[01:53:23] Unknown:

Yeah. What do you guys wanna talk about? We got some questions in the chat. We could talk,   Zeus dependencies.   We could talk about l 2. I saw there was,  

[01:53:32] Unknown:

a I found it. I found what I was looking for, Freaks.   This is,   this is what,   this is what fucking did it for, Brian Armstrong.   He had he had no choice. I mean, really, ultimately,   what what was he gonna do? He says, just let me flex. He was just gonna let me flex on him this way.   Apologies. Apologies.   To the freaks who are listening in the chat,   the freaks that are listening,   via podcast,   I am right now, I am flexing on Brian Armstrong   with   my open oh, that was horrible. What what was horrible?  

[01:54:19] Unknown:

I'm not Benz has just been trolling us this whole   episode.  

[01:54:24] Unknown:

Yeah. He didn't like your, choice of drink. I saw him comment. No. Yeah. No. He didn't Yeah. I mean, your choice of drink is horrible. I agree with him on that. It's it's it's better than the science. Can can this is open finance powered by Coinbase.   Like, how can how can Brian Armstrong not How can he avoid this? Like, this is just   I destroyed him. I absolutely destroyed him meme wise on this.  

[01:54:51] Unknown:

You know, I I would say he has no backbone, but I do think that the way he handled all the   SJW uproar  

[01:54:58] Unknown:

was pretty good. And I I do handled it he handled it better than I expected. I was hoping I could weaponize it against him.   Do you know that American Idol right now on Clubhouse, he just he just immediately just says, like, don't use Coinbase. They're racist. He just, like, says it non favorable,   which is fucking hilarious.   Well, I never I never I I recommend people away from Coinbase because they so aggressively push. But how powerful is this meme? This is like like, I get credit for a lot of memes that, like, honestly, guys, like, I'm not trying to own memes. Real memes aren't owned.   The reason stacking stats is powerful is because no one fucking owns it, and I would never attempt to own it.  

This meme is so fucking powerful. Like, this just, like this sent shock waves   through the Coinbase organization.  

[01:55:47] Unknown:

That's really see it.  

[01:55:49] Unknown:

It's the trademark. The trademark on the bottom powered by Coinbase trademark fucking killed them. It just destroyed them. Like, there there was nothing they could do about that.   They felt it. They felt it hard.   And then all of a sudden   all of a sudden, they started doing community outreach.  

[01:56:08] Unknown:

So can we talk about price, or do you guys not wanna talk about price? No. We could talk we have the price livestream  

[01:56:14] Unknown:

on this, show. People love I I I wanna know from you. Start before you start, James Yeah. Yeah.   Kobe and Ledger Status   literally have a podcast called Up Only. They have a Twitch stream called Up Only. They get 8 x what we get as viewers because   the overwhelming majority of people just the all they wanna hear about is price. That's all they wanna hear about price. And I just wanna say to all the listeners here, we're gonna make way more money than anyone who's watching their stream. Okay? And and and and the majority of people don't realize, we're in the in group We're in the in group. We're just gonna stack stats. They're gonna try and trade, like, NFTs and all this garbage, and we're gonna make more money than them. And that's fine. We don't need the engagement because we have the stats. Okay, James. Continue.  

[01:57:00] Unknown:

Well, yeah. I I totally agree with that. And what you gotta realize is, like, that,   the moments   that you make a lot of money, you know, in Bitcoin and maybe in general in the world are not predictable. And so you just gotta stack and sit tight because you just don't know when it's gonna happen. And if you try and trade around it, as I mentioned earlier, you're just not gonna make money. But what I wanna know from you 2   is, a, do you have any firm   sort of price targets for this cycle, or do you think that's silly?   And b, do you think that there is this chance of this cycle being the last cycle   given that the marginal buyer now   seems to be institutional and, you know, by nature has stronger hands than in, say, 2017 when it was a bunch of retail, when when you're the guy on your sales team, you know, had coin market cap up on his phone at lunch. Do you think this is a different thing?  



[01:57:56] Unknown:

Oh, that's a really good question.   Price   targets.   Well, let's start there.   You know, obviously,   I don't have a crystal ball. I'm really just going based on my gut. I do think we're gonna have a mom's per year.   I really do think we're gonna have a similar situation to the last cycle where we have a crazy blow off top.   I think it's probably gonna happen   in,   you know, late December or or January as the tails get a little longer.   I'm expecting   I I don't think it's unreasonable to think that's gonna be at least a $200,000   Bitcoin, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to hit half a $1,000,000 this cycle.  

But I do not think this is the final cycle at all.   I think,   the drawdown may be a little less severe than the previous cycles, but I still think it's gonna be quite violent.   Definitely see us, like, going to 500 k or something and then coming back all the way down to a 100 or us hitting, like, 350 and us coming down to, like, you know, 65 k or something. I think the cycle is still gonna   continue. I mean,   you know, people are gonna get greedy on the way up, and we're gonna go up way too hot, and it's gonna have to come back down to earth again.  

[01:59:19] Unknown:

I will,   Evan. First of all,   I love your because, see,   this is what pre pandemic people don't realize. Like like, Evan's just   nonchalant,   just, like, constant tone. Like, that's the tone we heard in the bars. That was, like, a very private tone. It was, like, it was just, like, Evan has been drinking. He's talking about Bitcoin. He's just been throwing a constant   tone, and then nothing will change. This was, like, a very intimate thing that we we got to feel,   New York City,   2020. But,   look, this idea, the final cycle, like, fuck you, all all you people, like, fuck you. Like like like, you'll know the top is in line when   the general consensus is that this is the final cycle. Like, I promise you last cycle, I thought it was the final cycle.  

Did I think it was the final cycle up until 10 k? No. I was very conservative.   I was like, oh, we could just dump all the way down.   It's pretty funny that Vinnie called the top at 1100,   but, like, we might drop down below that, like, no one knows.   I'm, like, thinking all these things through.   And then once we pass 15 k, I was, like, hyper Bitcoinization is upon us. This is the final cycle. I do not have enough Bitcoin. We're all   fucked. When we hit that point,   you're gonna hit that point, freaks. When you hit that point,   that's the top. Yeah. That that that that's when we hit the top. We're gonna fall 70%, and Bitcoin's designed to pump forever. We're just gonna continue to pump after that. You know? And and and people who are humble as SaaS attackers will be completely unaffected.  

Mhmm. But if you let your emotions get a hold of yourself,   it's gonna get fucking crazy.  

[02:01:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.   You're your own worst enemy when trading this stuff. So, you know, and   you think that is the end and you don't have enough and you're feeling really greedy. You're trying to   think that, you know, you should be liquidating   other assets you have in your life and then be doing it, like, now now now, like, that's probably  

[02:01:26] Unknown:

when things are gonna The best is when you're, like, your boys are, like,   I'm too late. It's too risky for me or whatever. And, like, you're just putting in way more than your boys at a day a day. Like, as it stands, like, what are they doing? Like, what's going on, guys? Yep. Yep. Yep. I know that feel.   And I tell them. I try and like, I try and tell, like, the people I'm really close with   because, like, honestly, for opposite reasons, you shouldn't tell the public.   But I try and tell them exactly how much I'm putting into Bitcoin because   it hits them hard. They're like, oh, fuck.  

I thought this guy was early, and he's still putting in blank amount into Bitcoin, and I'm just being a little bitch about it. It really does hit them.  

[02:02:09] Unknown:

Yeah. It's nuts. I mean but listen. You you can't kill yourself over it. You can, guide a horse to the water, but can't make Well, I I I think it's a greedy it's a greedy incentive. Like, I'm going to take care of all my friends and family.  

[02:02:22] Unknown:

Like, I will because I love them.   So I would like if they could pick up some of the slack and just, you know, like, buy some Bitcoin so I don't have to fucking spend as much on them. You know? Like, it it's it's it's it's not it's not a completely selfless thing. Like, Twitter is more of a selfless thing, I would say. The podcast is more of a selfless thing. When I show Bitcoin to friends and family, like, I'm hoping that I have another dude, another 2 or 3 dudes to to fucking pick up the slack with me when we need to, like, you know, handle Citadel Medical expenses. You know? Like, why, like, why should I handle that all myself? Like, it'd be nice if someone else could buy in at some fucking point. Well, then you want people to feel like they succeeded and they they made the decision  

[02:03:04] Unknown:

and, you know, they came along for the ride themselves and not like,   oh, you know, luckily, my rich buddy, Matt, was ringing about Bitcoin. Like, you you you want people who have made the choice to to buy into this themselves.  

[02:03:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.  

[02:03:23] Unknown:

Evan, I wanna talk about how long have you been at Kraken for?  

[02:03:30] Unknown:

It's been,   what, since October?  

[02:03:34] Unknown:

But I really 3rd time on dispatch, we've never actually discussed  

[02:03:39] Unknown:

it. Yeah. I mean, we really it's really not been, a 100% approved yet, but you just   let that cat out the   bag. But, yeah. No worries.   It's been, it's been good. And, you know, hopefully,   Still can't.   It's,   I'll tell you about the the process when when I can, but, yeah, it's in a little bit of a funny state.  

[02:04:11] Unknown:

I fucking love that shit. Buddy. I thought that was a little bit I mean, yo, James, in your defense, like,   the majority of the public Bitcoin industry is employed by Kraken.  

[02:04:21] Unknown:

So, that's true. I had, like, maybe a 5050 shot. I might be working for Kraken and nobody knows.  

[02:04:28] Unknown:

Oh,   man.  

[02:04:32] Unknown:

That's fucking hilarious.   I mean, I we have James here. I I think we need to continue. It's a Bitcoin Tuesday. It's a good time.   Bit,   James. James. James. James.   So we're trying to kill Bitcoin.   Yeah.   We're a large government body.   Yeah. We're not America. Let's say we're   let's say we're Russia or China. Uh-huh.   How do we kill Bitcoin?  

[02:05:03] Unknown:

Well, I think you could reallocate some nuclear power running some miners.   You could   supply chain attack Bitcoin.   You could try and defame one of the exchanges by hacking it.   You could,   you know, and and the thing is if you allocate a bunch of   power to mining,   you know, you can basically DDoS Bitcoin, but you can't, you know, like, a lot of people don't understand that that if you have, say, a majority hash rate, like, you can double spend in some sense, like, in a limited confirmation sense. You know, you can rewrite   some amount of history, but but not the whole history. And so even let's say that, you know, Russia wanted to take over Bitcoin and spin up a bunch of nuclear plants,   you know, obtain a bunch of miners, which which in itself is very, very difficult. A lot of people don't understand that there's a kind of scarcity in mining equipment.  

And as soon as you start trying to say corner of the mining market, you're gonna drive up the price of miners and make things really difficult for yourself. So It's interesting that people think that's a negative.   Yeah. Absolutely. And and there's a famous,   sort of famous paper on,   kind of the,   the amount of money that it takes to secure Bitcoin, and, it's a sort of critical paper,   from the University of Chicago about the economics of Bitcoin mining. And in the paper, one of the kind of fundamental   assumptions that they make is that there isn't convexity   in the price of miners when you're trying to buy up enough miners to actually make a dent in the Bitcoin network, which is obviously false. Because as soon as you start trying to buy a bunch of miners, then you quickly run out of supply.  

And as you try and buy people's miners, they raise the price because they detect scarcity. And so it's actually  

[02:06:56] Unknown:

pretty hard to Like, right now, it's, like, it's it's pretty difficult to buy a single ASIC.   Like, I'm I'm Yeah. Yeah. I I've been I've been traveling between Airbnbs,   and I came to the conclusion, you know,   I may or may not in my history,   have had to deal with,   have I have mined to get KYC free Bitcoin,   So I've decided that that is a great idea to do that again,   and it's very hard to just source a single miner. Right? And then we're talking about sourcing 55%  

[02:07:30] Unknown:

or whatever to attack the network. Right. Right. So I think that's just kind of a nonstarter, not because you can't acquire a lot of energy, but because,   like,   you're gonna see the,   the mining market, you know, go crazy,   before well before that happens.   So,   yeah,   I I'm not so concerned about that. I I think it's it's gonna be, you know, you could start   to see more hacks against exchanges.   Know, you could start to see a kind of regulatory chilling effect.   But you said you said non American. Right? So   so I I really don't know if there's not there's a lot that non American   countries could do at this point. I mean, America could obviously put a crimp   on progress temporarily   by doing something really draconian like a 61 102 or or just a kind of like, hey. You know, let's make exchanges as difficult to use as possible. But even that's just a delay as we all know because the jurisdictional arbitrage will kick in and, you know, serious Bitcoiners will go over to very nice places like, you know, say, Singapore or, you know, other countries that have, kind of favorable   jurisdictions. So,   I I'm not very bearish in that sense.  



[02:08:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, come on. Like, do you think anything on that scale could be   coordinated globally? And   it's it's it's, you know,   pretty much an impossibility. There's too many conflicting groups with computing interest. Like, there there's no way you can have   a worldwide ban that would effectively   stop this thing.  

[02:09:07] Unknown:

And so the the s and p 500 owns Bitcoin. Right?   Tesla has 1.5,000,000,000.  

[02:09:14] Unknown:

Well, okay. But I I I I I would argue   so first of all, the whole reason this question exists is because this is why I'm bullish on Bitcoin.   And I was like, oh my god.   Maybe this this fucking thing's a hydra. It's just gonna continue, and and that's why I jumped in.   But but but to be but to be clear, James,   like, this idea that   that,   these regulated companies, they're holding Bitcoin,   in in regulated   financial institutions   that are   fucking KYC ed out of the fucking   gills and   and and have insurance companies,   and they're known.   Like, they're they're not providing any cover for a self sovereign private Bitcoin user.  

They they they they are maybe   providing some credibility   cover   where if they go after us individually, it's like you're going after someone who is practicing normal finance, which is owning Bitcoin.   But   this idea that   Michael Sailor putting 90,000 Bitcoin   in   Coinbase custody or a competitor custody   platform where he doesn't own   the his keys and everything is known,   provides, like, any kind of cover for that self sovereign Bitcoin user, I mean, I think it's blasphemy.   Like, I don't think that really is a thing.  

[02:10:48] Unknown:

Mhmm. You know, I I wanna actually add an answer,   which is that if if I was a foreign nation state,   wanting to attack Bitcoin, I would do exactly what Craig Wright's doing now, which is bringing these frivolous lawsuits   against   well, no. I mean, I guys,   kinda he hasn't because if you look at the Hodel not cases, if you look at,   god, Peter McCormick's case,   they had to relent because the legal expenses got to be so much. And now he's bringing, you know, these cases against some of the notable core devs.   And, like, just because his case is completely ridiculous,   the UK's libel law is such that he can cost people in the 1,000,000 of dollars probably just bringing these stupid, frivolous lawsuits.  

And so   you might start to see that kind of action   against individual devs   as and, you know, with the intent of it having a chilling effect,   which which is something to worry about. And so I think, like, a legal defense fund is is   hopefully in the works for that kind of thing.  

[02:11:56] Unknown:

You think legal defense fund makes more sense than those developers, like, disappearing, coming back as as NIMs?  

[02:12:05] Unknown:

Well, that's I mean, you know, that's what I'm kinda thinking about doing, but,   and and and in the long run, maybe   maybe that's the way.  

[02:12:15] Unknown:

But, you know, I'll just be clear   no. No. But to to be clear here, like, it doesn't really matter, like, when we're talking about legal arbitrage,   like, it doesn't really matter how effective   your   so called,   n image was. Right?   If   if if we have one so called central party that no one knows about, like, let's say, like, Peter Woola   just, like, knows   like, James goes behind this name, and this is his name. He just promotes you. You know? And he just promotes you. He's just like, yo, guys. Guys. Guys, that that's that that that's James O'Byrne, you know? And, like, he goes in the next day. He's like, oh, that's that that's guy, you know? And and Right. And and no one talks about it publicly.   Absolutely. Yeah. We can convert a lot of people over to NIMs. Yeah. Yeah. And and you can have, like, a semi trusted centralized third party that we all already trust anyway  

[02:13:07] Unknown:

that that that dictates who is who, and you just, like, make that happen. You just switch over. Yeah. Yep. Now the the counterbalance there is that I couldn't have done what I did in terms of seeking sponsorship,   via GitHub if I didn't have, you know, my identity and and the track record associated with it. So if I was to move to a NIM, I would have to rebuild that to a certain extent,   which isn't isn't not doable, but it is an impediment. And so, you know, all this stuff is about making it marginally harder to contribute to Bitcoin, and I think that Craig Wright shit is unfortunate. Like but he's, like, the weakest attacker ever.  

[02:13:41] Unknown:

Oh, he's, like, yeah, he's a moron. But if we're talking about but if but if we're talking about, like, what we're what our goals are. Right? Like   like, he can go fuck himself. Let me be completely clear here. You know? I if if you go back and you search on Twitter, the the beauty of Twitter is Twitter is a a massive time machine.   You go back and look at Twitter, the like, a week after Craig Wright pretended to be Satoshi, you have me calling him straight up a fraud. I used the f word.   He never sued me. Why? Because I'm based in I'm based in United States, and he knows that if you're based in United States, you're not gonna get a libel suit that's gonna fucking pass. Yeah. We well, as in   the United Kingdom said it right in the beginning. It was very obvious. Right?  

So so, like, the it's important that people are practical about this shit,   and, like, we   you know, I don't agree with laws and all whatever, you know, regulations and stuff, but you have to, like, fly between whatever regulations are, whatever regulation.   But,   it it was it was very obvious that he was a fucking scammer to begin with, and I I don't think that he can ever have influence here. And and anyone who thinks he has influence, I think, at your short sight.  

[02:14:54] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[02:14:57] Unknown:

And and and and my point is my point is is that,   yes, I I think we should have some kind of   developer defense fund.   But it's like this all this shit is messy, you know. It's like, how are you supposed to have, like, who do you defend, who decides who you defend.   Like, all these things are messy. He knows that. Like, scammers know that. Right. And it's important it's important no. No. But the point is it's important for us not to make ourselves more vulnerable   to counteract some asshole. Right?   And, like, don't, like, don't, like, circle the horses and make people exposed and make people not nims just because you're trying to defend this shit.   Like, fucking fight it, and and we'll see where it goes. Like, these things none of these things ever end up   one of the things, like   like,   people are fucking hilarious, man. Like, they go back and forth on all these different things.  

One thing I will a 100% will always stand by is you go to you fucking   don't ever make a decision based on I'm scared this thing will go to court. Like, fucking make the decision. If that thing goes to court, it's gonna take fucking years. Yeah. It's gonna take fucking years. You just fucking fight it. Don't be a fucking cop. You just fucking fight it. It takes money to fight. It's not like But it doesn't. No. It doesn't. You can be Dossed. You can't. No. But you can you can fight it at a minimum  

[02:16:25] Unknown:

with nothing. You can fight at a minimum with nothing, and it's gonna take forever. Like, I mean gonna be the expense of your time. If someone's saying that you might owe them, you know, money or certain jail time, I mean, it's gonna take your earthly time to address that claim in certain jurisdictions. If if if someone in America wants to take your money in court,  

[02:16:47] Unknown:

it will take them years even if you don't have a lawyer. It will take them years.   Happen, you can run them forever   in in America. I'm not saying in other countries.   British has you know, UK has horrible libel laws. I'm not saying   in the UK, but in America,   if someone is trying to fucking string you out and take your money, you can run them in court for fucking ever. And this is something that Trump realized early on. This is like the Trump playbook. You just run them in court forever. You don't even the thing is Trump had, like, high priced lawyers. You don't even need a high priced lawyer. Like, you can just as an individual, you can run someone in court forever,   for, like, a long when I say forever, I mean a long period of time. I mean, like, a decade. I don't mean, like, actually forever.  



[02:17:33] Unknown:

I personally do not look forward to having to do that.  

[02:17:36] Unknown:

I am. No one wants to do that, but I'm saying if the time comes where you have to do it, you make them do it. Like, that's what we signed up for. That's all I'm saying. Yeah.   I mean, no one wants to do it. Like, that's ridiculous, this idea that someone wants to do it. But if we're in America and someone tries to fuck with us and this is why like, if if you look at Craig Wright's lawsuits, he doesn't sue anyone in America.  

[02:18:01] Unknown:

Well, no. Because he knows. He no. He he named,   he named a few Cordoz in America as as defendants in the past. Just recently. But he's desperate. He's desperate.  

[02:18:12] Unknown:

Those American core devs, they can run him in circles forever.  

[02:18:18] Unknown:

Generally, yeah, generally speaking, they should not work on the same  

[02:18:23] Unknown:

We could pay bare minimum lawyer feeds, and we can run them in circles forever   in America.  

[02:18:30] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think Holdemont was in,  

[02:18:33] Unknown:

Sweden, though, or or one of those Nordic countries. Their laws are shit. They have, like, horrible libel laws. Like, they can get fucked in a 1000000 different ways, but that but that's not America.   Right.  

[02:18:44] Unknown:

Well, I hope you're right, Matt Odell. I don't wanna end up, wasting my fucking time in a Yo. I'll fight with you, bro. Worst comes to worst, we pay him. You know? But I'll fight.   Right on. Is he suing you? He's not suing you anyway. He's not suing me, and I'm not. Me and John escaped that list.  

[02:19:02] Unknown:

Thank god.  

[02:19:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I mean, that I I guess that was just my point. That's all. Like, I'm just trying to   I I don't think people realize, like,   these little things these little things are what makes a place free and what makes a place fucking  

[02:19:25] Unknown:

barren. Right? Is it Yes.  

[02:19:33] Unknown:

What else do we have here?  

[02:19:36] Unknown:

Well, I'm still drinking my India pale hard seltzer. I don't really give a shit about what anybody uses. You don't have anything else?   No. I I really like this stuff. I mean, I don't know if it's that I haven't had an IP in American? Few years.   I think it is American.   Let's see. Yeah. North Haven, Connecticut.   Stillwater.  

[02:19:56] Unknown:

Oh, Stillwater's good.  

[02:19:58] Unknown:

That's what I'm saying.  

[02:20:00] Unknown:

I've been to Stillwater   pre pandemic. It was a very good, dispensary,   not dispensary,   distillery   environment.  

[02:20:13] Unknown:

So, alright.   Evan, Matt, what do you guys think is the most important thing to be working on in Bitcoin at the moment?  

[02:20:21] Unknown:

Damn. That's a really good question.   I think there's just, like, different domains of it. It's sort of split up. I mean,   talking   about,   something like protocol   dev stuff, I mean,   we're really lucky to have this Taproot and Schnorr stuff in the pipeline.   But we need to start thinking about what comes after that and what we need. And in my eyes,   really think we need something like,   multi input, signature   aggregation.   And I think that   really is a game changer. It's something that does take our privacy from,   you know, like, a 6 to, like, a 9.   I think that's really important. I think,   you know, the applications still have a long way to go. I now I'm really proud of the work we've done on Zeus. You should be really proud of what's going on on the cold core,   but we still have a long ways to go on that domain.  

And,   you know, if you look at the numbers, the percentage of people that   own Bitcoin in the world, it's still a managed deal. We still have a crazy amount of people   on board. We we still have so much work to do in in spreading the word. And, you know, of course, number go up is gonna handle a lot of that and help facilitate that. But,   you know, there's the user education,   you know, letting users know what they should do with their coins, how to store them once they actually get into the game,   how not to how to,   you know, coin out these frauds and not get caught up in these,   these shit coins.  

I mean, there's still so much work to do on all these different domains.   And, you know, we're all equipped differently, and we all gotta figure out   what the best way that we personally can   push this forward.  

[02:22:15] Unknown:

Absolutely.   Matt Odell.  

[02:22:23] Unknown:

I mean,   it's pretty deep, bro.   I'm I'm curious. You know, fuck all this shit. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm what do you think about the Mooch interview that I had? Oh,  

[02:22:34] Unknown:

well, I gotta say in general, I'm,   I'm a big fan of the Mooch because I had such low expectations going in.   When I when I, listened to his noted interview, it kinda blew my mind. I didn't realize what a sort of untrue believer he was. And if you just listen to the guy, I think it's clear he's not bullshitting.   I don't think he's just some opportunist. I think he is actually   a sort of libertarian at heart, and,   I I think he kinda has a lot of the priors that make for a truly solid Bitcoiner, and I think he's going after it, and I love it.  

[02:23:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I've heard a lot of great things on the interview.   I think that fund,   is gonna have a lot of good things going for it. I I I just hope that,  

[02:23:25] Unknown:

you know, that they stay focused on Bitcoin and try not to dabble into   Yeah. They they are, though. That's the crazy part. The crazy part of this cycle is that we have   we have billionaires   that are just like Bitcoin. I'm just focused on Bitcoin. I'm not focused on other things. Like, people don't realize,   like,   I disagree   with so much things that Michael Saylor has said   in respect to privacy,   in using Bitcoin and stuff. And I I I do agree with Rodolfo who we've had on this show say this exact thing that, like, if you're gonna attack the dollar, you're not gonna be like, I'm attacking the dollar. You're gonna be like, oh, I guess gold, store value. Like, you shouldn't spend it. You shouldn't do all these things. But regardless,   my point is, like, this idea that we have, like, a billionaire   that is like, I am obsessed with Bitcoin. I am just gonna stack as many SaaS as fucking possible. I will take out debt and I will stack the SaaS. I will take my cash flow. I will stack the SaaS. I'm gonna have a corporation fucking   conference, and I'm gonna tell all those people to stack the SaaS, and, like, maybe Tesla will stack the SaaS. And he's just, like, constantly over and over again just stack SaaS, stack, stack, stack, stack, and just, like, no focus whatsoever on any shit coin or NFT or any bullshit or any ICO. Yeah. Like, that's crazy.  

Like, that's crazy that we've hit that point   since   last cycle. Like, that that is not something that I expected.  

[02:24:51] Unknown:

Yep. Yep. No. It's mind blowing. Sailor Sailor is a true hero.   I kinda wrote him off when I saw the the first cyber hornets tweet, but then if you listen to the guy talk for more than an hour, it's it is totally evident he completely gets it, and,   he's a great force for Bitcoin.   For sure.  

[02:25:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, things are really going well in that regard as far as, like, people trying to take their focus away from the old ones. I think,   we'll continue to see that going   the right direction as, you know, Ethereum,   you know, still doesn't get version 2 out, doesn't transition to proof of of stake,   and has some staunch petition on its ass like Binance coin. I I think stuff like that's really gonna That's hysterical.  

[02:25:35] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it and it it's great. It's great to feel validated by that and to just be able to sit back and, you know, enjoy the popcorn on on that bell. Yeah. I mean, we've been calling that shit forever. Like, I I said from the beginning, like, of course, the smart contracts are gonna be ported over to more centralized forms to reduce fees. Mhmm. And it is absolutely crazy to me that the Ethereum stakeholders decided that they were gonna try and hit them with IT and them in Square and, like, all this shit. Like,   to be fair, though, that is what Bitcoiners are gonna have been hitting Ethereum people with.  

And, like, now they have nothing to stand on when when the US state eventually hits them with whatever thing that the big corners, like, decide to put on their chain.   It is what it is. Like, they're just gonna have to fucking,   deal with that shit. Mhmm.  

[02:26:25] Unknown:

So   I feel bad s s m was asking for my price prediction. So at some point, I Hey. Hit us. What's your price prediction, you fucking bear? Alright. Well, look. Okay. I am a fucking bear.   But that said, I think one thing is obvious, and that's the Bitcoin is a better goal. So   my price prediction is maybe for this cycle is basically just rough equivalents to the gold market cap. That's a little ambitious, but if you do that on the conservative end But, like, you get out about $300,000   a coin.   So   I think I think that's not unreasonable.   And then   as the second part of my question, you know, is this the final cycle? What I keep going back to is this idea that   every Bitcoiner understands stock to flow, and everybody kind of thinks   implicitly there's gonna be a dump.  

And so I'm just wondering if we aren't gonna be kinda surprised and that  

[02:27:29] Unknown:

if a lot of people aren't if if if the price is gonna hit you to 10. Yeah. Well, let's let's talk about this. Right? So, like, if it's if it's last cycle, right, then we're talking 400 k Bitcoin. Do we agree?  

[02:27:42] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I mean, well, I don't know if it's gonna hit 400 k, but, like, it might hit, say, 300 k, and then you might dump, you know, quote unquote dump to 250,   and then everybody thinks that's the big dump,   but it actually isn't.   And it just kinda dips and maybe goes sideways, and then, you know, maybe goes up to 300 and then maybe just kinda, like,   trends. I I think maybe the volatility will dampen and   you could just kinda have it's it's like if Bitcoin, you know, if this follows a sort of standard technological s curve adoption pattern,   we might well be in the middle of the s curve, and we might be well seeing, you know, the insane volatility comes to that, but as soon as you get kind of, you know, you approach the later stages of adoption, which maybe we're not even here, I don't know. But things, you know, the volatility is gonna quiet down, and it's just gonna kind of hit a steady state of being being a pretty high price. And so I don't wonder if a lot of people are gonna get tripped up in the late stages of the cycle, you know, possibly selling when   maybe maybe, you know,  

[02:28:46] Unknown:

there's not gonna be as much of a dump as people think. I I feel like there's gonna be a lot of people selling at,   you know, the big mental roadblocks. Like, I feel like there's gonna be a whole bunch of people selling at a 100 k, and they're only gonna   corporations   buy it up to at least 300 and and Wait. Wait.  

[02:29:03] Unknown:

I mean, so let's talk about let's talk about last cycle. Right? So we talked about last cycle. Last cycle went up to we we went from a $1,000   all time high to $20,000   all time high. Mhmm. Right? So we're talking 20 x,   and the   the cycle after the the cycle after that are low.   Our our high was was 20 k. So we go 20 x from our high of 20 k, and we're talking about 400 k.   Right? And so we're talking about   if we're gonna be the same as last cycle, we're talking about 400k.   No, Matt. Here's the 70k, 70k bottom is, like, what last cycle was. Right? That that's what we're talking about. Right? 400k to 70k.  

[02:29:48] Unknown:

The last cycle was the first time that the world, the entire world saw Bitcoin pump and then dump. It was the last it it was the first time they everybody   together experienced the cycle.   And now that the knowledge of that process is in the the collective subconscious,   everybody's gonna be saying to themselves,   well, Bitcoin is just gonna pump again.   So why would I why don't I just hold? Why don't I just forget about it?  

[02:30:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I agree. I mean, I think people should,   but I'm saying, like, okay. So if we're talking about last cycle, we're talking about 400 to 70.   We're talking about hitting 400 going to 70, and right now, we're at 50.   We're less. We're at 48.   Okay?   So so   if you want to decide to try and be James about it and try and create,   it, like Hey. Like, consider that consider that above 70. Right? Like, we're not we're not even e we're not at the point where   even the people that say super cycle or say, like, well, this is the last cycle. Like, we haven't even hit the point where if you go by last cycle,   where we would bottle.  

Mhmm. Right? Like like like, this is this is people say to me, like, Matt, you're supposed to be humble. Why are you all caps? Because this is the zone that you're all caps. Like, this is the zone where I get to go all caps with, like, pretty much   min I go I get to do with minimal risk. Right? I get to do with very little risk.   I I if if we go by last cycle, if we go by the cycle before that,   like, this is gonna be a price that people wish they had. Like, under 50 k. Oh my god. Under 50 k. That was so cheap. Totally.  

[02:31:31] Unknown:

Cantion, John makes a really good point that,   that I'm I'm even discounting the idea that despite the fact that a lot of people buying now, you know, our institutions with strong hands that they are gonna have mandates to rebalance as Bitcoin appreciates, and so there will be dumps that we kinda, you know, wouldn't necessarily otherwise expect. So that that's a good point too. I think, like, in the beginning, they'll gonna they're gonna re like, like so Ruffer did that. Right?  

[02:31:58] Unknown:

They did it at, like, 32 k. Mhmm. And we're at 50 now. Like, do they learn their lesson? Like, by the time they hit, like,   80 k, 100 k, 1.50 k, do they learn their lesson? Like, do they, like, start to be, like, oh my god. Like, why are we,   like, rebalancing over and over? I I think there are I mean, look at Sailor. Do you do you really think Sailor is gonna double? He's not rebalancing at all. He's I don't think he's gonna rebalancing all. As much as possible. He's as fucking addicted. But this guy might wanna be like, okay. I I could offload some now and then buy in  

[02:32:30] Unknown:

at a lower price and have much more SaaS. You you know what you're thinking. So Right. That's true. I think we're gonna see a mix of corporations who time it perfectly. We're gonna see corporations who sell too soon and regret it. We're gonna have corporations   who, hold the whole way down and then end up selling it in, like, a   year and a half or 2 years, I think we're gonna see, like,   a wide array of different actions like that.  

[02:32:57] Unknown:

What what people don't realize is that these corporations   are way more exposed to cash than the average person. The average person has no savings. The average person is a fucking failure.   The the core corporations,   they have large amounts of cash holdings. Yeah. They're true. Apple Apple has 1,000,000,000 of dollars of cash that they're just sitting on. They don't know what to do with it. Yeah. Right? And and so if this thing turns on them,   they're gonna FOMO in   like fucking crazy. And this is not a manipulated asset. This is an asset that you could truly own. Right?   Mhmm. This is an asset that, like, if if FOMO happens, like, shit's gonna get real real fucking quick.  

Now I don't think people really under like, this is why caps or Dell exists. Like, people don't realize   I I I I am   a very   calculated individual.   Like, caps Odell exists because   It's caps time. What what's about to happen is fucking ridiculous. And the the probability of what I expect to happen is fucking ridiculous. Like, people don't expect it.  

[02:34:05] Unknown:

Agreed. Agreed. I I think it's gonna get really silly.  

[02:34:09] Unknown:

Yeah. And, after this year with   all the as you guys say, money printer go brr,   Who knows? Like,   it's really hard to even try to put a number on these things. Like, there's so many macro factors.  

[02:34:25] Unknown:

Right. And and that's why, I mean, I feel a little conflicted about talking about price because, ultimately,   the reality is price is the ultimate indicator of success. Right? But at the same time, at this point, price shouldn't affect your behavior. You should just be stacking and and not spending, and   that's that's my outlook.   And yet, you know, I remain kinda fixated on price just as a sort of, like, I like watching price search because it's, like, the the Bitcoin narrative is actually gaining adoption,   among people. I never thought it would, you know. And the reality inherent in the Bitcoin technology, which   is basically the sovereign individual,   like, to see that take hold in the stream   just blows my mind every time.  



[02:35:09] Unknown:

Yeah. It's really cool.  

[02:35:16] Unknown:

Matt just flexing   with his,   CryptoWatch tweet charts here.  

[02:35:21] Unknown:

How good is the CryptoWatch,   tweet chart feature?  

[02:35:26] Unknown:

Pretty good.  

[02:35:27] Unknown:

Love to see it. You gotta put that one on that said,   Evan told y'all this is about to rip.  

[02:35:33] Unknown:

How good was that? You were fucking trashed. You were fucking trashed. I was trashed, and I just fucking just threw out all caps. Evan told you this shit was gonna pump. You should listen.   What else we got in the comments? Yeah. Few big corners understand   on that.   I mean, it's been a good run. I mean, I think we can end it unless we have   any kind of   really good compelling questions, freaks. You're here with us.   You are the host. This is Sizzle Dispatch.  

[02:36:06] Unknown:

By the way, if anybody,   checks full car out, they they want anything,   need help,   hit me up. I have   some bandwidth.   I'm at, at James OB on Twitter and GitHub,   and,   all my all public inquiries should go through Matt Odell.  

[02:36:28] Unknown:

It's important that everything should go through Neuraj before it goes through me.  

[02:36:34] Unknown:

Absolutely.  

[02:36:35] Unknown:

Cold card is great. Stack and forget will not forget, but it's just a peace of mind.   Fuck, yes. Yep.   I mean, look, guys. I appreciate both of you.   I expect both of you to come back on the show soon. I mean, fuck you, Evan. I mean, you've been on the show 3 times.   So Evan will definitely be on the show soon. I expect James to be a a constant,   a constant pillar on this show.   Happy to come on. Whatever, man. You're my boy. I miss you, bro.   Likewise. Thank you thank you for joining us.  

[02:37:12] Unknown:

James, you gotta come to Miami, man. I'm serious. Are you coming to Miami?  

[02:37:16] Unknown:

I'm thinking about it. I mean, I haven't I haven't,   taken out a Bitcoin collateral  

[02:37:21] Unknown:

collateralized. No. Dude, don't fuck you, bro. I know you're gonna you're getting paid in fiat. Are you not getting paid in fiat?  

[02:37:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I am.  

[02:37:29] Unknown:

Okay. So use some of the fucking dirty fiat and use code humble humble 21%   off until they cut me off, and you get 21% off. Fucking do that. We'll get you into the beef steak. The beef steak's the most exclusive fucking thing ever. Like, those tickets are not being sold. I love you freaks for being here with us, but you're not gonna get those tickets.   Yeah. I mean, they're, like, unruly favors. But we can get you in, James, and, and join us. Like, stop being a little bitch. Like, it's gonna be a lot of great time. Come down for that. There's no way I can do that. Be, like, 200 k per in June. Like, it's gonna be fucking ridiculous. I don't think people realize people don't understand what the fuck is happening right now.  

[02:38:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   we're really just getting started. I mean, it it's sort of crazy to think that we're just under a $50,000 Bitcoin, and, you know, we really haven't even gotten into the meat of this run yet. So I mean, we're talk we're talking about we're we're at 3 k right now. It's 3 k fucking February 2017.  

[02:38:27] Unknown:

Yeah. If you wanna be Vinnie if you wanna be Vinnie, you wanna call the top,   so be it. Like, we will fucking destroy you for the rest of your fucking life, and we'll just make that happen. But but to to be clear to both of you guys, both Evan and and James,   like, I will I will support you no matter what. Even if you guys fuck up, I will support you no matter what, but I appreciate if you guys could also   lend a helping hand and be a part of it.  

[02:38:53] Unknown:

So thank you. I'll try not to fuck up. That's my number one mandate.  

[02:38:58] Unknown:

Thank you both for joining us.   Thank you for both your contributions   to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is gonna rule the world. Thank you to all the freaks who have joined us for another Bitcoin Tuesday.   Still dispatch,   man, like, 11 episodes. It feels like yesterday that we just started this back in 2020   that, that whole year ago.   We're fucking killing it. Let's go, guys.   Please like and subscribe all that other bullshit with all the Citadel dispatch things. You can do it on YouTube. You can do it on Twitch. You can do it on Telegram.   You can just download the fucking episodes on fucking Keybase, and you can use all the podcast apps if you would like.  

Join us for our HR on Thursday. It is gonna be fucking dope. It'll be absolutely lit. Marty will give me shit about coin joints being blocked at bottle pay, so you need to fucking be there for that.   Stay humble, Stack stats, and just fucking have a good fucking time. Thank you, Evan. Thank you, James.   Their their Twitter accounts are at   evankaloudis,   Evan Kaloudis, and at James OB, a   jamesob.   Thank you, guys.  

[02:40:11] Unknown:

All caps.  

[02:40:12] Unknown:

All caps.  

[02:40:15] Unknown:

Cheers, freaks. Love the freaks. Love you, Matt.   Love you, Evan. Thanks, dudes.  

[02:44:49] Unknown:

Love you, freaks. Stay humble, Stack stats. I'll see you on Thursday for our HR, and I'll see you next Bitcoin Tuesday   for the next little dispatch.   Love you all.