Citadel Dispatch

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Join Matt Odell as he sits down with Rodolfo Novak and Evan Kaloudis.

EPISODE: 0.0.1

BLOCK: 662548

PRICE: 4265 sats per dollar

TOPICS: self custody, FinCEN, ledger hack, and audience questions

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

The decision to start allocating toward Bitcoin   when Bitcoin was at $10,000.   It's a little more challenging   with the current price closer to $20,000   Amazing   over a very short period of time how big of a run up we've had.   But having said that,   our our fundamental work   shows that Bitcoin,   should be worth about $400,000.  

[00:00:27] Unknown:

Woah.  

[00:00:28] Unknown:

So, we're going to even if we had the ability to do so today, we're going to monitor the market and, see how trading goes,  

[00:00:38] Unknown:

with valuation, but ultimately, we'll have to buy it. Scott Miner, we wanna delay the Fed press conference for this comment. Bayou, how do you frame a 400,000,   Bitcoin? How do you get from where we are now up to 400,000? Is it just based on scarcity?  

[00:00:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Right, Tom. It's based on the scarcity and relative valuation, such as things like gold,   as a percentage of, GDP.   So, you know, there Bitcoin is actually   has a lot of the attributes of gold,   and at the same time, has an unusual   value in terms of transactions.  

[00:01:15] Unknown:

Right. Mike McKee emails me. Why are we talking about BitDogg while we've got a Fed press conference going on? McKee, jump jump in here and save this Fed You you know we're gonna get emails,  

[00:01:25] Unknown:

from people about Bitcoin.   What is up, freaks? Welcome to the first ever Citadel Dispatch,   joined by our special guests,   NVK and Evan Kaludis.   Welcome, guys. Yo.  

[00:02:17] Unknown:

Hello. Glad to be here. Thanks for having us, Matt. This is fun. It's the new episode.  

[00:02:23] Unknown:

Brand new.  

[00:02:25] Unknown:

Yeah. So to all the freaks joining us,   the idea here   is to add   another   another show that you might enjoy to the TFTC   lineup.   This one will   be composed of actionable discussion, and it'll be streamed to your citadels   live.   And from there, we will then put it in the feed as audio.   And I'm was lucky enough to have my good friends, NVK and Evan, here to join us for this one.   So our topics this week   will be,   self custody in general, the recent FinCEN ruling   or,   I guess, rule that they put forward, and this ledger hack that's going on. And the last 20 minutes, I wanna reserve for audience questions.   So, as you can see   in the   in the stream,   all of your comments are being streamed live to everyone else as well. So please submit questions,   provide your feedback while we're while we're discussing these topics, and we will be happy to highlight them at the end of the episode.  

To all the people joining us from the   podcast feed, I hope this translates well to direct audio.   We will try to   explain anything we're showing on screen, but we're gonna try and keep that to a minimum.   So what's up, guys? What are you drinking?  

[00:03:50] Unknown:

Me? I've got some Macallan 12,   double cask.   It's not too  

[00:04:00] Unknown:

bad. I've got over there. I've got some Some reasonably   decent red wine.  

[00:04:06] Unknown:

So   our guests today   are very,   you know, very involved in the self custody space.   I think both of them would agree with me that you're not actually using Bitcoin if you're not actually controlling your own keys.   So in that case,   if you are using a Bitcoin wallet, the only way it is a Bitcoin wallet is if you are controlling your own keys.   NVK is, the cofounder of Koincite   and,   which is the maker of   my favorite hardware wallet, the Coldcard.   And Evan is the maintainer the lead maintainer of Zeus,   Lightning Wallet.   So   but both self custody wallets. Self custody has hit the   the headlines recently because of this recent FinCEN rule. So I before we start, I wanted to just discuss why self custody is important, why we control our own keys as Bitcoiners.  

I was hoping Evan could start here.  

[00:05:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Sure thing. So,   you know, as far as assets go,   this ability to self custody at such a cheap cost and with such ease is,   like, really one of the main selling points of Bitcoin to me at least.   You know, like, if   if if you were to, I don't know,   not self custody it and just   trust someone else, then, you know, you're you're losing out on,   you know, half the value prop of the asset, I believe.   And, you know, that that's mostly in,   you know, censorship resistance, you know,   not having   not having to rely on anyone to send a transaction from you, like an exchange or a bank, and for you to be able to do it yourself.   Because,   you know, like, perhaps   you haven't experienced it as an the average citizen of, you know, whatever western country you're probably tuning in from.  

But, you know, if there's   numerous, countless cases across the world where people,   you know, they skirt a little close to, you know, doing something their governments   or someone powerful doesn't like, and they lose access to their bank account, their   stocks,   other assets.   And,   you know, just taking control of your Bitcoin and putting it on a wallet with the keys that you know and control   totally mitigates   that risk. So,   I think like Matt said, he noted on the head when, he said, if you don't control your own keys and you're not custodying your own Bitcoin,   you it's not yours.  

You're not using Bitcoin, and what you have is an IOU.  

[00:06:47] Unknown:

It's the whole fucking point.   Not your keys, not your coins. And if you're not gonna self custody, well, they either just sell everything or go buy some GBTC on your 401 k.   Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, seriously. Right? I mean, what's what's the point? You're gonna have some some IOUs on Coinbase that has way more risk than just some GBTC.  

[00:07:12] Unknown:

Yep. And then, like, think about if regular   regulatory risk comes in, like, we've been worrying about that sort of triggered this sort of mad dash we've,   probably all been experiencing this week. Like,   what's gonna happen? Those coins are just not gonna be yours anymore. And, you know,   what were you, in Bitcoin to   begin with just for the gains?   I mean, you know, some people   are you know, they're honestly gonna come in for a number go up and to get rich,   but   a lot of people are gonna stay in Bitcoin because it liberates them and gives them a whole new level of freedom.  

[00:07:48] Unknown:

I think it's like you know? I mean it for the gains, but also for the capacity of spending the gains without permission.  

[00:07:57] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[00:07:59] Unknown:

Well, I mean, before Bitcoin,   you couldn't really self custody. There was no way to self custody assets, I guess, except for   metal gold. Right? Like, actual  

[00:08:09] Unknown:

physical gold. Like, I feel like most people don't even realize that. So gold and cash, right, is the only things that you could self custody, but the problem is, like, with cash catches on fire, right, or whatever happens.   You know? And and Grid. Yeah. Seriously. I mean dilute you. No. But and and yeah. Sure. Yeah. Aside aside from inflation problems, I mean,   cash takes a lot of room. Right? So, like, to have your life savings in it. Right? It's it's surprisingly,   like, a lot of space you need, and you have to keep the mice from eating.   I mean, just look at the extent the cartels go to bury that shit properly, all vacuum packed, and it's it's very expensive to do that, and, you know, it's gonna get inflated, and then with gold, I mean, seriously,   I mean,   you know, first it's like you have to have serious physical security. Right? Like, I'm talking about, like, next level stuff,   and then, you know, you're gonna lose 10, 15%   on both ends of the trade. Right? Like and and gold,   on average, doesn't go even that high. Right? I mean, we had a little run up, which wasn't really a run up for gold. It was just that the the dollar went to shit.  

So stock goes up, gold goes up.   But,   you know, I mean, listen. I think this audience already, like, you know, they they understand this stuff, but   it's it's completely unrealistic. Right? You you can't you can't leave your country if you're gold. Right? They're gonna take it from you. Yeah. You know, Bitcoin, 24 words, you travel, you're gone. Well, I just wanna go back for a second here in terms of  

[00:09:47] Unknown:

the idea of self custody and cash,   which is the most common   way that, that the average person, I guess, has any kind of real experience with self custody.   And it very much is a substandard experience, and I think it shares a lot of similarities with shitcoins.   In that, I particularly think you cannot really self custody   a shitcoin because if there's no hard cap on the supply,   you can control the keys. You have the keys. No one can spend   your specific shitcoin.   But if they can just create infinite shitcoins   while you're storing those keys,   then it you don't really  

[00:10:25] Unknown:

have self custody. Right? There there's a dynamic at play there. The way I like to think of this is like this.   The USD   is the least worst shit coin.   So,   you know, between   between, like, all the shit coins available or rather have USD.   Right?   Mhmm. You know? And and then you have Bitcoin. Bitcoin is king. Right? I mean, there there is no reason to really hold anything else anymore.  

[00:10:52] Unknown:

Yeah. I would agree with that sentiment. I mean,   if you look at the way it's been performing over the last 10 years, you're,   you know, best off just treating Bitcoin as, like, your, checking account   and your your savings, really, and, you know, just dipping into it when you need it.   You know, if you're holding cash, you're a fool. If,   if you're in the stock market and you're in an index fund, you're gonna lose value against, you know, hard assets like gold and Bitcoin.  

[00:11:18] Unknown:

I think what maybe a lot of people don't understand is that, like, stocking fasting, like, at least, like, in the recent,   like, modern history. Right? So, like, say the mid century   onwards. Right? It was not designed for the average person to invest. Right?   You're a sucker.   Right?   No. Seriously, everybody's front running you. Right? And and and you're just, like, bleeding,   bleeding management fees.   Right? That this   the the idea of the average person, right, like, not being able to save just by holding USD,   right and having to become a professional   sort of investor   to just manage their like you know like the yearly   scrape by savings,   in stocks is is, like,   pure insanity.  

Right? Like, people should be able to just save   without thinking. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You earned, you put it under your mattress. Right? And then, like, 20 years later, you retire. Right? Like, there shouldn't be  

[00:12:20] Unknown:

some requirement of of, like, very advanced finance for you to to be able to to have a, like, a comfortable retirement. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Like, if you're a blue collar worker, you shouldn't have to be worrying about, like, what tech stocks are freaking doing. You should just have to worry about your job and then, like, cut a part of your income to the side to save for the future. But, you know, the elites have messed things up so badly that everyone has to get into stock market and be a Robinhood trader. It's really it's really insane. Yeah. Fucking ridiculous that you're expected to be, like, some kind you either have to be  

[00:12:52] Unknown:

financially savvy or you have to hire someone and pay them for that privilege. And then when you go to do your taxes, you gotta go and then pay someone else for that privilege as well because it's so fucking complicated intentionally.  

[00:13:04] Unknown:

And and the way I look at it, I mean, at least Robinhood, Wealthsimple,   you know, even Cash App, all these apps, right, they let you buy, like, partial   stocks.   Right? At least, like, they have a more, like, honest, approachable proposition.   Right?   Like, you you know, you you know you're not getting the full yield of of any stock. Right? Like, you're   you're just doing better than whatever other investment.   But, like,   when you are the average average person, right, like, that that wants to have a little bit in the market, right,   That, you know, you walk into your bank branch,   you get you're like, computer says yes, computer says no, like investment advisor, the branch. Right? And they're gonna allocate   some some, you know, a few $1,000   on on some mutual fund of the bank offers that they, you know, they they rape you from every freaking angle that possibly have. But, you know, dollar keeps on going lower, so   you you you even with that   absurdly   poor investment,   with all the fees taken, you still do better   than than holding   cash. That's how bad cash does now.  



[00:14:16] Unknown:

Cash trash is, Ray Dalio has been saying. That's right. Cash is trash.   So, yeah, so quick question for you guys. I'm sure you guys have been telling some people that you got into Bitcoin to be pulling off exchanges.   You guys have, like, you know, first go to wallet on their phone that you guys are recommending.   I mean, Rodolfo, you're probably sending all your friends gold cards. But, before we get there before we get there, so  

[00:14:41] Unknown:

so I I I think I think the the easy way to distill this is you're not controlling your own wealth unless   you're holding Bitcoin, and you're not holding Bitcoin unless you're holding your own keys.  

[00:14:52] Unknown:

Yeah. I understand. The ultimate goal  

[00:14:54] Unknown:

the ultimate goal for for every single person on this fucking planet   is to hold their own Bitcoin keys. That is that is that is the ultimate. That's where we're going.   The question is what is that that that process for that average person to get there? I mean, this does not   having someone else control your wealth obviously has risks. You have to trust that third party. You have to trust governments that are regulating those third parties that you're trusting.   We saw that with gold with the 6102   act in the United States,   where where they took they forcibly took people's gold. And we see it all the time where where money gets seized. We see it with PayPal. PayPal is a perfect millennial example here where they don't wanna freeze people's money. They don't wanna send people's money, but they're forced to by governments,   and the regulations that they have to comply with. And then we have things like Mt. Gox where you have fraud   and your money is taken because of fraud, not because of necessarily regulation. So in both those cases, you have third party risk that results in you losing your money. Now self custody reduce removes those risks, but all of a sudden you add personal responsibility risk. So the question is,   what is that process that that average person goes from going from   a a a pleb who's trusting third parties to hold their wealth to to a sovereign individual that is holding their own wealth. I think I've like, I've been thinking about this for a few years now,  

[00:16:17] Unknown:

and and sort of, like, it it depends on who and how much.  

[00:16:20] Unknown:

Okay? Mhmm.  

[00:16:22] Unknown:

So so, like, you know, some dude who wants to buy a $100 worth of Bitcoin. Right? You know what? Fuck it. Have the IOU in some stupid fucking exchange or Cash App or whatever. Right?   Let them play around with it. They lose it, so be it. Right?   But but just the fact that they went out and bought it. Right? Like, it it's it's one step.   Right, and then and then after that, it's like that's when you start pestering them, right, like, dude, you know what?   That's gonna be worth 10 x in 2 years. Right? Almost certain right now, the way it works a bit quite so far.   So   so why don't you just, like,   get an a phone app, right,   write down the seed on a piece of paper,   and and and just just take custody of that. Right? And if you're not willing to do that, you know what? Sell it. So I've I've told many friends, sell it and buy some stupid ETF   on your bank   mutual fund crap   of Bitcoin. At least you get some Bitcoin upside. Right?  

Otherwise,   like, that this is the time you make the decision, right? You either sell it GBTC   or   you   you take custody of it, and if you're gonna take custody of it and it's only $100 right now, you know, download BlueWallet   or   or a fully noted,   or on Android.   I don't use Android. So,  

[00:17:55] Unknown:

On Android, you should use samurai or blue wallet?  

[00:17:58] Unknown:

Blue wallet is great.  

[00:18:00] Unknown:

Blue wallet is cross platform.  

[00:18:02] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, they're they're doing a good job.   And and, you know, like so so that's the first step. Right? Write the seed down   somewhere. Could be a piece of paper. You know, if you burn, so be it. It was not the end of the world. It was a $100. Right? But at least Well, the paper would have to burn and your phone would have to burn. Right? But but, like, we got them off the ground. Right? Mhmm.   And then and then now   they're gonna start seeing returns,   right, if they didn't buy the speak.   So   now you you get them to sort   of understand that, like, okay. This is a good investment. Right? They're gonna see it that way. Right? Forget about all the the the charged,   like, politics of Bitcoin or everything else. Right? It's just this is a good investment. Right? I mean, I held this for 1 year. Look how much it is now.  

So   so now you take them to, what is it? Bitcoin's   security dog guide. Right? And it's gonna show them step by step basics. Listen. I have I have cold card there, but it could be other hardware wallets. Just the basic.   Get your   your seed set up on a hardware wallet,   make a backup of it, test the backup of it, and that's it. Right?   So at least not there on the hardware wallet. Point, the testing the backup.  

[00:19:17] Unknown:

Yeah. This applies not just to Bitcoin wallets, but any type of backups you're doing in general.  

[00:19:22] Unknown:

You haven't done the backup process until you've tested it out and made sure it works. So free just make sure you do that. It's worth it. Get the get the Bitcoin security guide on the on the screen. See if we can at least go through the steps. It's very I don't like your guide. It's yeah. Well, go to your guide.   You have a guide. No. But your guide is guide is better than your guide. My guide only has bullet points.  

[00:19:48] Unknown:

My guide has  

[00:19:51] Unknown:

number points. Yeah. No. See, my my guide fits in a single screen, I think. My guide tells you how to verify your fucking software. There he goes. In line Point is you you get your harder wallet.   You write down the seed. Okay? You put it in metal because paper burns. Okay? You make some some encrypted micro SD backups because you have Okay. Rodolf.  

[00:20:13] Unknown:

Yeah? Rodolfo, we've gone a little bit we've gone a little bit too far into the weeds here. Okay?   Before we get to that point, can we just go back to the phone wallet thing?   Because I think I think for most people We've already done it. They've done it. They have a phone wallet. It takes 2 minutes. I think most people the the mobile wallet is the first step. Right? Yeah. 100%. And and am I a crazy person that I actually think Wait.  

[00:20:37] Unknown:

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. If they're older,   okay,   any person who's a bit older,   older people   hate phones. I personally hate phones too. Okay? Don't do Bitcoin phones. Phones are stupid.   Okay? But older people,   they're not gonna be as as like versed to the phone and understand how phone backups work, any of that shit, so so please take   them and and, like, maybe install Electrum for them. Right? Like, Electrum for all the, like, the UI   and of   it, it's surprisingly simple.  

[00:21:15] Unknown:

Once you get the seed in. Right? Like, you open the thing is there. You wanna send money out. It's like, it's it works. Right? Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. MBK. I I I got a little bit distracted because our boy, Keep It Simple Bitcoin, wanted us to shield his guide. But did you just say that a boomer that can't use a phone wall wallet should use Electrum? Did you hear that? I've been there hundreds of times. Yeah. You know, you're not gonna get invited back to the show if you keep up with this bullshit. Yeah. I I don't know about that. Well, there's I'm Valiant. With Electrum just like from this perspective. I You're better off maybe even setting someone up on on Spectre.  

[00:21:47] Unknown:

So Spectre is amazing, but the problem with Spectre is it requires the node part.  

[00:21:52] Unknown:

So be uncle Jim.  

[00:21:54] Unknown:

Right? No. I'm not. I'm nobody's   Jim.   Why not? Yo. I do not. There's things they don't do in my life. I don't hold people's money. I don't help people with investments,   and I don't do their their IT.  

[00:22:08] Unknown:

No.   Okay. Fair enough.  

[00:22:14] Unknown:

Anyways,   point is,   like, Electrum I only say Electrum because out of its wallets, it's it's the it's the most   sort of, like, download and open   wallet. Like, it it truly is for all its flaws. Okay. You download and you open. Look. Keep it simple agrees with me.   Okay. And he teaches people.  

[00:22:36] Unknown:

I don't know. Would you Don't make me regret putting that on the screen. Sabi  

[00:22:40] Unknown:

Wallet, when where he risks getting these pop ups, connecting to a rogue server? No. No. Wasabi, you need, the you need the node. What about Bitcoin Core?  

[00:22:48] Unknown:

No. Bitcoin Core, it's   it's unusable as a wallet.  

[00:22:54] Unknown:

Blue Wallet on desktop, I need to try out. I think Blue Wallet in general is, like, a fantastic   fucking   beginner wallet. I think I think most people can can can figure it out.   It's it's completely free open source software.   It complies with, like, pretty much every major standard, so it's a nice get your feet, you know, wet kind of wallet.   Pretty much everyone has a smartphone. Not everyone has a computer. It's easier for the average person to secure secure a smartphone at least from, like, everyone except from the NSA and the US government.   So, like, that path to me makes a lot of sense. And   I almost think for the average person, like, if you're if you're under, like,   50,000,000 sats or something like that, you know,   I I almost prefer to be on a mobile wallet than be on a an on an exchange. Like, I don't know if that is is is that is that a controversial statement? I've taught many seniors,  

[00:23:53] Unknown:

okay, how to download   Electrum   and open it.   I don't think boomers using Electrum is the way. No. I listen. It's different people, different I hate this idea, okay, of, like, a single solution for all the problems because it's like it's completely different people.   Right? It's like different people, different problems, different solutions.   And Fartface 2,000, I think, did some math there for,   Sats.   Is that   what he's saying? I don't know. Or is that the block number? Oh, that's the block number.  

[00:24:28] Unknown:

He's letting us he's letting us know that we've just incremented a block. Thanks, fartface 2,000.  

[00:24:33] Unknown:

By the way, best NIM ever.  

[00:24:36] Unknown:

Okay. So, I mean, I think we've agreed that that, fortunately, Bitcoiners have many options in terms of actually holding their own keys, which is good. Right? Yes. And I I I think I think that if you if you go back even just a year, you go back 2 years, like, there was way less quality options. Like, 2 years ago, I wholeheartedly agree with your Electrum recommendation because there were so few options. You know what's kinda funny and a little controversial maybe now, but it wasn't then?  

[00:25:04] Unknown:

One of the best multisig wallets that there was for people not doing   huge volumes,   was co pay.   Co pay was actually pretty good for for the average person to use.  

[00:25:17] Unknown:

Do you have some vulnerability?  

[00:25:19] Unknown:

No. Isn't this coming from the JavaScript hater? Isn't that a JavaScript wallet? Yep. That was the problem with that wallet. That wallet would break after also maintained by a fucking discount. In it. Yeah. That's the bigger issue. Literally, it would break. But, yeah, a lot of people had forked co pay and use it for their own wallets, their own wallets and not. But it was pretty solid, product at the time. I mean, at least you guys are ahead of its time.  

[00:25:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I'm just glad that Satoshi Vermuzin   agrees with me.   And I I I think I mean,   I'll I'll speak for NVK because I've talked to him privately. He thinks for noobs, it's fine for them to connect to random Electrum servers. Over Thor.   No way, man. I totally I I I think the big problem with Electrum isn't  

[00:26:04] Unknown:

how overwhelming the UI is, which it is. I think it's very difficult to set up your own server. Over I think that's a fucking pain in the ass. Over to our see, see, this is the key here. You go on their computer, okay, and then you install brew, and then you just do brew install like like Tor and that's it. So it's set, so every time they turn on their computer, stores is running, right, And then you you you set a in   a way that they cannot they cannot   connect over clear net, period. That's it. They're done.   But, anyways, BlueWallet now does a good job,   and and there is, there's an, what's the name? Explora   from, blockstream.info.  

No.   Blockstream. Yeah. Blockstream.info   has Explora,   which solves a lot of the the the block query stuff.   Not great for you to be,   how do you call it,   doing clear net   with all this block   exploring services.   But, you you know and you can connect over Tor. You can do VPN or something.   But, but realistically   speaking,   for the person that just got a $100,   for them to download a a a node is, like, retarded.  

[00:27:26] Unknown:

Okay. New question.   At what point   is the money's you know, the value of the Bitcoin that this person has,   enough that they need a hardware wallet?  

[00:27:38] Unknown:

I think so I I think it's more less about the amount of money   and more about their expectation   and where they they wanna go. Right? If you think they're gonna sell their $100 worth of Bitcoin tomorrow,   you know what? Don't don't don't bother learning. Right? Go have fun being poor.  

[00:27:57] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:27:58] Unknown:

But but, you know, if your goal is to clip on keep on exploring this rabbit hole,   then the first thing you should do is get a harder wallet.   And and what's nice about that is not just the security you get. It it's it's like   it it takes you it forces you through the rabbit hole.   You're gonna have to learn how to do certain things that are not necessarily super simple,   for a non   decointer.   And, you know, and then you get there.  

[00:28:40] Unknown:

I'm sorry. I'm neck deep in these comments.  

[00:28:43] Unknown:

Yeah. We're glad. Good. So  

[00:28:45] Unknown:

so this is fucking fantastic. This is exactly what I was hoping for. I   I just wanna shout out to all the freaks in the chat.   This is what it's all about. Keep them coming.   We want you to be a part of of every Citadel dispatch.   So I want to I mean, we just spent 30 minutes about   you know, I I don't wanna be the mom in the room saying we're behind schedule, but we just spent 30 minutes. One second. One second.  

[00:29:12] Unknown:

Because one zero two is is, like, screaming at me on Twitter saying that I got something wrong. I have to correct it. Oh, he finally figured out how to comment. I told him that I Apparently. I design I I decided on the Wasabi node thing. Wasabi doesn't need a node, apparently. Okay. Yeah. You But it's fixed. It's fixed.   Everybody knows the truth now.  

[00:29:34] Unknown:

There we go. Well, Wasabi doesn't need to know? That's the that's the beauty of Wasabi   is that it's, like, a actually usable light client. Matt, I told you that 1 hour was going to be completely, utterly I just wanted I just wanted to do a shout out to 60102.   Part of the reason why I came up with this format for this show   is that he's able to   comment live,   without doxing his voice. So I'm glad that he he figured out how to do it. Maybe we should just unlock him.  

[00:30:05] Unknown:

Why? Because he's finding out your, That's right.  

[00:30:09] Unknown:

100% is a conspiracy.  

[00:30:12] Unknown:

I could see it. Maybe. Let's go. You're one of the competitors,  

[00:30:15] Unknown:

That's  

[00:30:20] Unknown:

I love 6 zero four.  

[00:30:24] Unknown:

Okay.   So   Next. Why are we all here? We're all here because of this fucking   ledger hack.   I mean, I I think that is is is really the talk right now.   I noticed.   We saw we saw a massive leak that happened in June.   Ledger originally said   that it was about 95100   people were affected, I believe, if I recall correctly.   It turns out that there was over a 1000000 email addresses compromised and over 250,000   mailing addresses.   Mailing addresses, phone numbers, email addresses. I wish you the the list live on air? I have the list here. No. I have the list too. I I mean, we're not gonna just   start showing people's address. It's a joke. Fucking brutal.  



[00:31:18] Unknown:

Joke. So there's there's, you know, pretty affluent people on there.   You know, a lot of people who work for exchanges.   You know, this is no joke. If you're on there or if your family member's on there,   you know, you need to bring it up to them and, you know, discuss what you're gonna do to   to try to mitigate it. It's it's like a really awful situation, but at this point, the toothpaste is out of tube, and that any determined sicko is gonna be able to get this data.  

[00:31:47] Unknown:

No matter what, you know, Ledger tries to do to tell people to pull it down, it's out there. Let let me just put a a little thing here. So advanced attackers can find you. Okay? It doesn't matter that you're new on the Internet,   like, unless you're really,   really, really good.   Okay?   More advanced attackers can find you. Yep.   The problem with this list is that all the morons can find you now.   Like, all the scam artists,   all the   the the people who don't have money for a PI,   like,   it's bad.  

[00:32:24] Unknown:

Yeah. So here's the thing. Like, the attackers, right, they did this long campaign. They did it since June or July. Right? And,   the fact that they even went to go and dump this on this hacking marketplace   means that they've sort of exhausted,   you know, the amount of Bitcoin they're probably gonna get out of people with the spear phishing. Yep. But what Rodolfo says,   now you're gonna get the sickos,   the common people that are gonna have this information.   And,   yeah, I I think we're gonna see some pretty bad incidents,   unfortunately.  

Matt got linked to one, that was posted on Is it the math for Monero?  

[00:33:02] Unknown:

Yeah. The math for Monero guy. Oh, Cohen is the great I, like, I love the creativity.  

[00:33:07] Unknown:

Wait. I have it here. I have it here. Let me let me show the freaks the one we're talking about. That'd be awesome.   Let's read it let's read it to the people. So this this this is for the people that that are listening on the podcast   feed.   This was posted by a user   on Reddit.   It seems like this user is, like, a very legitimate user, so I I I don't think that they're   they're making this up, but, of course, they could be. But this is the type of threat you could see in this situation. He received a phone call that was was threatening kidnapping and murder.   A male   Anglo accent caller asked if his full name and claim to be a drug addict. He gave him his full address and said he knows I have a lot of Bitcoin. When asked how, he said my information had been leaked on the dark web.  

He played dumb and eventually says he purchased a hard a ledger hardware wallet and only loaded cons by them. He told me a sob story about how he's addicted to meth, is about to run out, and needs Monero to buy more. He demanded 10 XMR and said if it's not sent by midnight, he will show up at my house, kidnap me, and stab me to death. Any relatives living at my address, I guess, as well. I was able to record this phone call because I put him on speaker phone. I sent it to the police, filed the police report. They're gonna try and trace the car caller. I doubt they'll be able to, and sent a police car to wait outside, which I'm very grateful for. All of my doors, etcetera, are locked, and I have the officer's phone on speed dial. I just wanna warn everyone about the dangers of Ledger's recklessness. If there's a class action lawsuit, I will gladly join and submit this as evidence.  

[00:34:36] Unknown:

So let me I I think I I need to put a caveat there, like, in this whole whole shebang   is that listen.   Data leak   and hacks of servers. Okay? This is not new. This is gonna happen to everyone   Yep. To all the companies.   Yep. Okay? This is like,   you know, your information is already in the dark web for sure. Right? Like a Sears catalog,   a fucking Walmart website,   you know, Amazon, whatever it is. Okay? It's already out there. The problem now is that, like,   imagine if a company that sells high end safes.   Okay. They lose their data. Well, people who buy high end safes are more likely to have something expensive at home. Right? So this is the problem with the with the ledger leak.   So so now there's a lot of guys out there who, you you you don't know that there is something likely in somebody's home.  



[00:35:37] Unknown:

Yeah. It's just a all around poor situation.   You know, and it's a shame because   I really have, like,   you know, a good impression of the ledger wallets, I think, from the hardware wallets. It's got a lot of good stuff going from it with a secure element. You know, you can't just take a ledger and pull all the siege off it like you can with a treasure.  

[00:35:57] Unknown:

But Yeah. A 100%. Gun to the head. I'd rather use a ledger than a treasure. Like Yeah.   100%. No doubt.  

[00:36:03] Unknown:

Yeah. But, yeah, this is a reputation killer, and, you know, it is gonna be weird. I I don't think the company,   is gonna have a good time after this. It might be a killer.   And, you know, they might have to end up selling the tech or restructuring,   but, you know, this is like a giant veil from the side of, management.   And, yeah, I don't know. Just moving forward, it's just gonna be interesting to see what companies do to not try to mitigate this.   Rodolf, I gotta tip my hat to you for taking steps to,   delete customer information after a certain amount of time.   Hopefully, this, you know, inspires   CryptoCloaks.  

It's doing something similar.   Yeah. It would be really awesome if this became standard in What? Industry.  

[00:36:52] Unknown:

So this is what people don't realize though. Like,   you know well, first of all, there's 2 things here. First of all, I think, ultimately,   the world becomes a Bitcoin world. So I think this is a   specifically,   Bitcoin   specific lists   are a a   is a short term pain point. Long term, everyone will be a Bitcoiner.   If you're a rich person, you will assume people will assume you own Bitcoin. And if you don't own Bitcoin, they will assume you'll be able to obtain it. We already see this with the ransom attacks with, like, hospitals and stuff. They don't they don't care if the hospital owns Bitcoin. They ransom your data, and they expect you to go get some fucking Bitcoin. Yep. The second thing is, though, in this short term period,   anyone selling product to Bitcoiners   needs to prioritize   privacy over marketing.  

And and,   yes, this is a personal responsibility movement, and users should be aware of the risks. They should use,   the not they should use burner email addresses. They should use burner phone numbers. They shouldn't mail it to their home. You know, they should get a PO box or remailing address. But at the same time, the companies have to take steps to prioritize   privacy because   they're Bitcoin focused companies. And and we saw this ourselves at TFTC.   We had the merch store,   and we routinely delete the addresses because I've we're so fucking anal about it, and this hit us so hard that Marty just fucking deleted the merge store. Like, we just don't have a merge store. It's not worth it anymore. It's not worth it. Like, why have that data? Like, people have already learned their lessons the hard way about about holding keys hot, Bitcoin hot, but, really, this personal information,   is is is is extremely valuable, if not just as valuable.  



[00:38:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely.   If if you're storing   sensitive data,   you have to be able to keep it secure. If you can't not fucking store it. It's it's very tricky. Right? Because  

[00:38:50] Unknown:

there's there's 2   2 aspects of this. Like, forgetting about privacy for a second. Right? There's 2 aspect of this that maybe people don't understand is that, like so, you know, CoinKite, you know, we sell fucked enough shit of devices everywhere in the world, both credit card and and and, and Bitcoin for years. Right?   And there's 2 problems. Right? Like, one problem is the marketing problem, which was not something we care, so we never really had any marketing system   or setup or a newsletter or nothing. I don't think anybody ever got an email from us. So so that part was sort of, like, self resolved.   Right? Even though we have that checkbox saying, you know, if you wanna receive spam checkbox here kinda thing, we actually never used that.  

So we never had the emails   on a on a separate marketing system. So most companies,   they will   take those emails from their their shopping system into   a a marketing system. Right? That's what Ledger did.   And I'm sure sort of probably Trezor does that. I'm sure all of them do that.   And by the way, those affiliate links that people use,   okay,   for selling harder wallets,   it it's way worse   because those   they're like edge company that tracks   the nose if you're pregnant   plus your personal information.   Okay? So,   affiliate programs from, like, all Bitcoin companies,   just wait for that to hit the fan.  

Okay. So that's one part.   Now the other problem is, like, depending on the country, you have, like, tax   bookkeeping requirements. Right? This is the problem that we have,   in in Canada. Canada, the government requires us to keep   invoice data   for 7 years or 8 years. Can't remember now.   And   they don't specify   exactly what data that is,   but we kinda know because we we've been audit before many years ago being an early Bitcoin company, EA, you get the white glove treatment.   And   you you have to sometimes provide what's called,   source of funds. Right? So they they want to just make sure that all those invoices you have are are not like,   you know, people that don't exist in is a money laundering operation. Right?  

So   after   some research, we we sort of resolved the problem,   by having people,   actively request your data to be deleted from our system. That's been available for long time.   So you could just ping us and say, hey. Delete all my information, and we did that.   Because then we also have the record of people requesting us to delete the information. Right?   But then,   you know, after this ledger   chit show,   you know, if every single customer is requesting us to delete their information,   you know what? Fuck it.   It's like, you know what? Like, if the government has a problem, so be it. And and so,   you know, we're we're honest company. We pay our taxes, so,   we're gonna go with that and and see where that takes us.  



[00:42:17] Unknown:

The way I look at it, I mean, at the end at the end of the day, these governments are obviously   the the way they're set up is they're set up to   to to prioritize data collection over,   data privacy.  

[00:42:30] Unknown:

They, like, they, like, force you to keep as much data as possible. This is not a this this comes like, this this accounting laws,   this this money laws. I'm talking about modern money laundering shit. I'm talking about just reasonably,   like, older stuff, like, basic tax law. Right?  

[00:42:46] Unknown:

This stuff comes from, like, you know, the 19 twenties, man. It's like, you know, who's gonna, like, storm into a warehouse and go read through a 1,000 invoices in paper written by hand? Right? What I'm saying. Right? Like, if if you're gonna have to keep that data, like, you should keep it securely. Right? Like, keep it offline. Treat it like Bitcoin. Right? Like, with Bitcoin, we've learned our lesson. Like, people don't   leave hot wallets just lying around with 1,000 of Bitcoin anymore. Here comes the  

[00:43:14] Unknown:

honest truth about this problem is that, like, it doesn't matter that we delete the data.   Right? Because there could 2 things can happen. Right? One thing is you could have a leak in the system, right, where somebody's siphoning that data before you delete it.   Okay?   Mhmm. 2, the credit card company and the credit card processor have that information if you pay the credit card.   Okay? And then there is also the shipping carriers.   Right? So UPS, FedEx, DHL,   you know, USPS, all this shit. Right? They all have this data. Mhmm. So   the ultimate   issue here is that you cannot trust anyone.  

You have to have a PO box. Okay. So you pay Bitcoin, you send to a PO box with an alias or to a business. Send it to your office.   Right? Like, it's perfect.   Mhmm. Even under your own name, it's not the end of the world. Send it to your ex right before you break up with her. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.  

[00:44:14] Unknown:

It's the best advice is to not even mail it at all if I mean, once conferences start rolling up again, hopefully, fingers crossed soon. Look who joined us. Our boy Asqui is here.  

[00:44:26] Unknown:

Hey. Yep. So that brings me to another   another thing. Right? So today,   Jameson Lop was grandstanding,   or not grandstanding, but he I felt like he was throwing stones from a glass house a bit,   because he said that it was almost victim blaming. He said that people should take personal responsibility and not provide Ledger with this information, and I do agree. And and this is something that Adopa just said. With the sentiment. I do agree with the sentiment that you can't trust anyone. You don't trust, verify. Take it into your own hands, personal responsibility. But one second here.   Casa   as a service,   you know, they know all of your intimate transaction information. Like, if you don't   if if you don't use your own node to interact with the Bitcoin network, you're trusting the node you're using. And in Casa's situation,   you're trusting their node. And they have all of this super intimate financial transaction information. And all those things you just said about all those other parties that have it Yep. In this case, isn't really   isn't really that. If Casa did it right, and you can't really tell because their app's closed source. But if they did it right, only they have that information. But there's no way to use their product without trusting them with that inter intimate information. So I think   and and and that's not to dismiss the company. Like, I think there's a place for a trust based relationship. It just needs to be disclosed properly. Okay. Like, the trade offs need to be disclosed. Number There's   Law  

[00:45:55] Unknown:

Matt is a 100% right about,   them knowing your transaction history.   But at the same time, you gotta give Casa props because if you want to, you can use Yes. Your service   pseudonymously.   Sorry. Hard word to say.  

[00:46:10] Unknown:

And they don't need to know who you actually are in, you know, the real world. So my The average user isn't gonna be able to use it that way. They're looking at IP addresses, their their email address, phone number, everything. It's just like  

[00:46:24] Unknown:

My my personal view on this is is kinda simple, really. So   Casa is a fantastic service   if you use the seed. I don't like the seedless thing.   But aside from that, it's a good service   for people that already have doxxed coins.   Okay? So there is plenty of people in the world,   okay, that we will not have or will not care about   doxing   concerns. Right? You're a fund manager,   You are a fund.   You are somebody who you know, listen. Like, Bitcoin is not your full time thing. You know? Like, me you're you're just   some dude that has a lot of investments and, you know, you don't wanna have to think about   all kinds of, like,   Bitcoin security things,   you know, and you buy on Gemini   or Coinbase   every week.  

You know what I mean? And   and you don't mind even giving your name to Casa.   You know, it's like, again, right, different solutions for different people. It works for that. Yeah. I I just I think it's a Can't you say that same thing about Ledger?   Well, Ledger is Ledger is to to say again, right, I still think Ledger, even with this leak, is better than Trezor.  

[00:47:43] Unknown:

Yeah. The hardware, undeniable. I mean, seriously. It's like you know,   job on the disclosures.   We have record of users   who, after the leak, they went to Ledger. They asked, hey. Was I in the leak? They said no. And then they download the list yesterday,   and they find out their name's in there.   Right?  

[00:48:02] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:48:03] Unknown:

They did a bad job. Yeah. Listen.  

[00:48:05] Unknown:

Like, honestly, like,   shit shit happens.   Like, it's one of those, like, honestly,   I mean, they they could have handled their PR better. They could have handled a lot of shit better. Yeah.   Like but but the but, you know, it's also not easy. Right? Like, to be   it's   not easy to be a company in the Bitcoin space dealing with Bitcoiners.   God knows. I know.   And and it's not easy to to deal with data leaks, man. Like, you you just you know, it's not an easy thing to handle. Right? Yeah.   At the end of the day, you're gonna get fucked no matter what.   So,   so so there is that.  

But,   but I   I I I I wouldn't write them off. It's like I I still think that that, like  

[00:48:54] Unknown:

No. I will I will I'm a niche product. Right? I mean I mean, like, you know make the right mitigations and Yes. You know, keep putting out hardware wallets. Of course, we don't wanna see any,   you know, companies in the space   fall, especially not Ledger. You know? We like their wallet.   But, you know, it's gonna be a little tricky for them to traverse,  

[00:49:13] Unknown:

you know Listen. A shitcoiner still need a a safe a safe wallet. Right? Like,   this happens this is the problem that I have. Right? Like, I make a product that's Bitcoin only. Cold card is Bitcoin only. And, you know, I have plenty of customers that when I hold shitcoin and then they ask.   So what's the next best thing that you're gonna suggest I use? I say, well, you get a ledger because Trezor is responsibly   unsafe.  

[00:49:40] Unknown:

So 6102 has a question real quick. He's asking, in which way is ledger hardware better than Trezor? You wanna take that, Rodolfo?  

[00:49:47] Unknown:

Well, one is Secured Auto, one is not.  

[00:49:51] Unknown:

Yes. 6102. Basically, if you get a hands on,   a Trezor and It's gone. It's   not the model t and it's not encrypted, you could just rip the keys off their physical access point. And and even if it is a model t, I mean, like,  

[00:50:08] Unknown:

it's like it's the whole sort of, like, the the the whole architecture, the whole mentality of all the product is just, in my view, unsafe.  

[00:50:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:50:21] Unknown:

I mean, just to clarify here, the TREASER t I mean, Evan just kind of,   pointed to it. Is the Trezor t has this SD card slot, so you can technically encrypt   the secret with the SD card. And if you keep the SD card in a separate place,   than than the device, then you have some physical security added there.  

[00:50:43] Unknown:

Even need both the SD card and the device to pull the seed. Yeah. But that's like patch. Like, it's like it's like trying to put a Band Aid on, like the the problem is when you have a device that doesn't have a secure element, you cannot trust anything.   Right? You cannot trust the clock on it. You cannot trust the the signing. You cannot trust the crypto on it. You can't trust anything.   Seriously.   Somebody could change the firmware on that thing, and it's it's like it's there's nothing there to to anything.  

[00:51:11] Unknown:

Wait. So Rodolfo, I have a good question for you live on air.   Would you say that a air gapped,   Linux   computer would be better than a Trezor running core?  

[00:51:22] Unknown:

Oh, god.   So Linux is the first shitcoin.  

[00:51:27] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Regardless of  

[00:51:29] Unknown:

is the only true OS. Free BSD is Bitcoin. Linux is, like, essentially Litecoin.   Boy,   I don't know. I mean, honestly, this is not not an easy question.   The the the problem with with, like, general purpose computers,   you cannot trust them. Right? Because   you don't you cannot trust the disk encryption.   Like, forget about the super advanced exfiltration   over air gap stuff. Right? But just like   but just like the the basics. Right? Like, you just can't trust a disc encryption unless   you're running FreeBSD and you built Geely by yourself.   Like,   it's just not simple stuff. Right? Like, average people, even advanced people, when I hear them talk, it's cringey. Like, it's like you don't know what you're talking about. You're gonna get pound. Right? Like, your your maid is gonna take your laptop   and and it's gonna take your keys out of there. Right? Remember, it's gonna we're gonna get back to, like, you know,   2011 when people used to get their their wallet dot   d a t files taken from them.  

Sorry.   Brady Swenson.   No. We're not OFA.  

[00:52:44] Unknown:

I mean, I think you got you you nailed, like, an important point here. Right? Like, there's a reason hardware wallets exist.   Mhmm.  

[00:52:51] Unknown:

I the It's the market has spoken. Right? People are not getting pound.  

[00:52:56] Unknown:

I I remember back in the day, it was just, like, on Reddit. Like, every day, like, people were getting fucking hit.  

[00:53:01] Unknown:

I mean, that was probably for the karma, but yes.  

[00:53:07] Unknown:

The other thing that I I feel like we missed,   is that the mailing addresses get a lot of publicity.   But these phishing attacks,   it's like it the the phishing attacks are super successful. Like, I Because the UX of this wallet   suck. I just had I had someone today,   right, who wasn't using a hardware wallet, was using Wasabi.   Mhmm. So that takes out the hardware wallet FUD that hardware wallets are more likely to get phished.   Mhmm. And he was having an issue with Wasabi, so he went to the Wasabi Telegram chat,   And a scammer pushed over to him,   and a scammer sent him a link to say that he could help him,   and he put in his seed. And as soon as he put in his seed, the scammer now has access to his funds.  

Luckily, I answered his DM,   and we fucking saved his 10 k before the scammer sent it. Geez. But, like, that's ridiculous. Right? Like, that's fucking   and and Do you know why, man? This this cluster I'm showing right now   is a single we were talking about the ledger the ledger dump, data dump that's been circulated   between multiple hackers. Right? So it's it's sold on the dark web, and then it's resold and resold. So there's a bunch of different groups right now trying to exploit it. This is one group, and they've already received   approximately 23  

[00:54:30] Unknown:

Bitcoin. Nice.  

[00:54:31] Unknown:

This is according to Ergo BTC from the OXT team,   over at, like, Samurais Research division. But this is one group, and they've they've   they've gotten 23 fucking Bitcoin.   So so we're talking we're we're talking here at at $600,000.   Right? $700,000.   I I don't do good math live.   But, like, this idea this idea, like, there's definitely a threat of people's home addresses and, like, people coming in and trying to do things there, but there's such low hanging fruit for these hackers to just send out the hundreds of thousands of emails and just hope that some some people put in their seed and then that's that. I still receive  

[00:55:13] Unknown:

email, phishing email from Mon Cox email.   So these lists are gonna be sold and resold and resold and resold and resold. It's forever now,   right?   So, but the problem again, right, is the wallets, right? I mean, yeah, sure, people are idiots,   but aside from that, which is just human nature, it's like,   you know, you have harder wallets that tell users to type, like, pass phrases on our computer or type seeds or type pins.   Like,   it's   like if you tell your users that they have to type their passphrase on a computer, somebody   comes and tells them, hey. Oh, you're gonna lose all your money if you don't type your seed right now on the computer for me. Right? They're gonna believe it.  

So it it starts with, like, you know, for example, like, Trezza 1 shouldn't be sold anymore. Right? Like, it's not a product that's safe, and and it's it's a product that tells people to type secrets on the computer. Yeah. I think we could all agree about that.  

[00:56:15] Unknown:

It should be discontinued, and they should only sell the model to you. But then and then this idea this idea that it's the seed's fault is fucking ridiculous   No.  

[00:56:30] Unknown:

No. I mean, like, it's so insane. Right? Yes. It's very simple. Right? Bits   rot and burn.  

[00:56:37] Unknown:

Yep. That's why we use  

[00:56:39] Unknown:

sats.   Well, seriously, it's a   fuck   you. Yes. Bits are terrible.  

[00:56:45] Unknown:

I think what it comes down to is education. So, like, if you're gifting your friend a hardware wallet, you know, they need to be told of this. Never enter in your seed if you're prompted, and only do it of your own volition when you're, you know, moving devices or checking a backup.   And, yeah, just put that seed on metal and,  

[00:57:04] Unknown:

I mean, what what else could you do, really? Well, I think one under discussed aspect of it is is,   you know and it's part of the Huddl mentality is this idea that you set up your fucking hardware wallet in 2017,   and maybe you go over and help your friend do it.   They write down their seed, and then they just leave it. You know, maybe they're adding to it, but they're just looking up receive addresses on whatever software they're using, but they're not using it and getting comfortable with it. So in 3 years, when they get that phishing email that says,   you know, funds have been transferred,   and you need to immediately   click this link, they're not comfortable. They don't realize that that's not the proper   receiving and restoring and backing up and doing the whole fucking process over and over again and getting comfortable with it. Yeah. That's why that's why when we designed the UX of Coldcard,  

[00:58:06] Unknown:

you know, we went all top gun on it. Right? Like, there is the danger zone.   It's like   it's   you know, for all the grief that we get about, oh, cold card is not easy to use. Yes. It is. But it also the things that are hard to use are meant to be hard to use.   You're not supposed   to go look at your seed for no fucking reason   unless   your metal backup has melted   and you made bullets out of it. Right? Like, there there there is no reason for a person to ever need we almost omitted that completely from the device,   but but then we created the danger zone part so we can put all the things that we wanted to just remove, but then people might need once.  

It's like,   don't don't go look at your seed. Don't make it easy for people to see their seed   because, again, people are idiots, and and they're gonna do it, and they're gonna give it to a scammer.   Yeah.  

[00:59:02] Unknown:

Who just thought that being your own bank would entail so much personal responsibility?  

[00:59:08] Unknown:

Okay. So I think we successfully hit   current steps,   that that steps that people should avoid this kind of risk in the future,   not, you know, trying to hold their personal information as close to their chest as possible, treat it as sacred.   Basically, every life event,   you have to, like, treat as a privacy focused event going forward. Part of the thing that people don't realize   is maybe your email address was leaked in the ledger thing. We have a a 1000000 email addresses were leaked only only.   250,000 addresses were leaked. But if your address was leaked alongside your email in, like, a Ticketmaster leak or   Expedia leak or some other bullshit leak, then   the the malicious individual can cross reference. So if you use the same exact email address,   and and your address was leaked somewhere else, then all of a sudden they have that information or your phone number, they have that information.  



[01:00:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. My email is there. I bought their wallet   about   6 years ago, 7 years ago.   My email is there.   Damn it.   But my email is not linked to anything else.  

[01:00:25] Unknown:

Do you have an answer to this? What to which one?  

[01:00:29] Unknown:

Oh, so Electrum on malware infested Boomer PC is okay, but Trezor is not. Yes.   No. It's not. I'm joking. It's like,  

[01:00:40] Unknown:

somebody who works for Trezor or something. No. It's a cool it is I'm just teasing you. Deal wallet. I'm just teasing.  

[01:00:48] Unknown:

Just just note your trade offs with whatever you go with. Right? Exactly. Trezor, you need the physical access. Right? If, you know, if you know your broker, there's a lot of points. No. But I think I think there's a caveat that's important on this. Okay?  

[01:01:00] Unknown:

A hardware wallet that's not secure is giving you a false sense of security,   and this is very important   to sort of realize.   Like,   if you like, the minimum that I would say is, like, if you have a harder wallet,   the harder wallet has to survive a couple days   in a lab.   Right? Because listen, given an infinite resources, anything's breakable, or anything,   but   most devices will survive with actually low rate   of of of,   of destruction.   Right? So so if they sorry. High rate of destruction. So when they try to   on our case, if they take the the the SC out, they have to shave the bottom of it, and then they have to beam a $250,000   laser to it, and then they have to get it out, and then they have to pair the secret of the other chip. Right? So   in this whole ordeal, you have to have a $1,000,000 plus lab and it's gonna take a few days. Right?  

That gives you time to get your money out.   Right?   And and you're getting other security features because of the SE. Right? Like, you can trust the firmware better. There's other things that you get out of it. Mhmm.   The problem that I have with a toaster like hardware wallet   is literally is the same chip as a toaster. Right? We kinda have the same MCU.   Microwaves would have that chip   Very  

[01:02:26] Unknown:

with an MCU.  

[01:02:27] Unknown:

MCU is the general purpose,   microchip.   So it's the one that it can put open source in it. Let's put it this way. The chip itself, it's like the specs are open, but, like, calling open source is a stretch.   So,   so anyway, so so the problem with those is that you can cheat everything.   There's just no security of anything.   You're just sort of, like, trying to skate on ice with, like, socks.   Right? That's the problem with, with an MCU based hardware.   No   no SC at all.   And, that that's the Trezor situation. It's kinda tragic, really.  

[01:03:11] Unknown:

I mean, I think Satoshi Vermulen makes a point. Right? Like, the ideal goal ultimately   is multi sick, right, with multiple different types of signers. It solves a lot of these issues. Yes and no. Right? Because I see more people fucking themselves over  

[01:03:25] Unknown:

than getting robbed.   That that's the most common ticket out of the people who lose money is I did something wrong and I screwed myself out of my money, especially multisig.   I think, what BlueWallet is doing now is similar to what Copay did back in the day and similar to what Quinkite did way back in the day,   which is like it's it's a more reasonable way of doing multisig.   It's getting there. It's not quite there yet.   I think I think it's gonna get better,   and   and in my in my like, especially the market pushing and people having more money and people willing to spend more money, I think the market is gonna come up with a very good multisig solution   that is non,   that's non doxing,   in a year or 2. I think things will will come out. Like, the market will provide solutions,   for these things, and and also for privacy problems too. This is all market problem. Right? Like, eventually, there will be better ways for you to ship stuff without doxing yourself   because somebody's gonna come up with a service to solve that problem.  

The same with multisig,   these things are not easy problems. They really aren't,   and and especially with the current tech for multisig,   maybe with Taproot, and once you have threshold signatures, you can do a lot more interesting shit. Mhmm. Maybe that's what's gonna happen. Right? Like, it's very possible   that we're gonna leap,   multi sig white adoption   for the average person.   Oh, like, most big businesses, most exchanges use multi sig. Right? I'm talking about just, like, average people or self custody kinda deal.   I think we might end up leaping multisig into Moosig, which is the Taproot stuff.  

That that has a lot more interesting things that you can do without Doxy,  

[01:05:20] Unknown:

but we're we're far from it. Long ways to go, different standards, and how different Oh, different universe.   Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other can of worms. But important points that you, made there, you know,   complexity.   You know, you don't wanna be shooting yourself in the foot. If you do a multisig setup, you know, test it thoroughly before you do it.   But, you know, ultimately,   multisig is gonna be a great solution, especially if you don't trust shysters like this Rodolfo guy over here, you know, but a different,   manufacturers,   you know, wallet into the multisig quorum could really go a long way. And not even if it's just, you know, trusting the manufacturer, but if they have Don't trust us or don't trust any manufacturer. Yeah. Don't don't trust this guy. Come on, Gus. But, you know, if there's a bug,   you know that you're only you won't be affected if you're in that multisig   setup because the bug only affects the one device that, you know, they found the exploit for.  

So,   yeah, as far as multisig goes, I think we made   a lot of, great strides in the products that we're seeing. Spectre, 1st and foremost,   Sparrow,   and, Nunchuk to a lesser extent. I know that one's not open source yet.   But we're going in the right direction, and, you know, that's a reassuring thing. And so  

[01:06:36] Unknown:

I appreciate this discussion.   One of the main goals I want with this show going forward and today being the first episode is that I wanted to be filled with actionable,   advice, things that people, big corners around the world can actually use. So   we have a bunch of people,   a 1000000 email addresses,   over 250,000   emails, mailing address, and phone number have been compromised.   We've gone over what Bitcoiners should do to try and avoid that happening to them in the future. But if it already happened to them,   how should they proceed? What are some real steps they can take to try and protect themselves? We got Nick over here,   who I've highlighted his comment.  

It appears he got an email verification email from Coinbase yesterday with his compromised   email account. Nick, if you wanna comment real quick, I my my assumption is here is that you don't have a Coinbase account, and,   the attacker is trying to make a Coinbase account in your name maybe, or they they try to sign in via your account?  

[01:07:38] Unknown:

Never click on emails on links. Actually, any just always delete. So as soon as you see   a freaking email from any   any supplier, vendor, website, whatever it is, you always   you you remember?   So, say, Coinbase sent me an email. Great. You delete the email, so you don't click on it for sure, and then go log in on Coinbase and then see what's up. Absolutely.   It's just you don't you don't click on emails like nothing, and seriously, use a text only email   client.   Well, I mean, listen. The the the clientele of this podcast is probably a little bit more sophisticated.   Right? This is not   this is all uncle Jim's watching us.  

So, seriously,   stop using Gmail. Stop using any client on the browser, all this crap. Just go have mutt   look up mutt email client, install that, only use that. It's all text based. You can see the headers. You can see everything that's going on.   Right? Stop just trusting whatever you see on a computer.  

[01:08:43] Unknown:

A 100%. You know, when you're getting into the space and you're dealing with, you know, self custody and a lot of money, you you know, there's a lot of responsibility that comes with it. And, end of the day, you just gotta be super vigilant.   Now for people who got caught in this ledger thing,   well, if your phone number is in there, you might wanna change that if you can.   Your email, you might wanna   get rid of that. If you can move,   if not, you probably wanna arm yourself. Get a file, if you can, in your jurisdiction.   Yeah. Make sure this is something that's okay in your country. Yeah. Yeah. You have the location that's against the law and, endorse that. If you live if you live in England, get a butter knife, a firearm   A dust. Arm and defend yourself and your family.  



[01:09:28] Unknown:

I I think I think another, like, a, like, a silver lining for the people that didn't get pound by this   is that,   you're gonna find out,   through the news if there are bad guys in your city who are willing to do damage   or not.   So you can check the list to see how many,   people got licked in your city and if it's like a decent enough amount of people. It's a it's an interesting thing to watch in the news. You you're gonna find out a lot about your jurisdiction   by the amount of people that get kidnapped or killed.   Too dark?  



[01:10:07] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, that was pretty dark. A little dark. Sorry. I mean, it's rough in Brazil, man. I  

[01:10:14] Unknown:

Oh, I got you. If you do get go to the firearms route, make sure you do proper training and, you know, maybe take a course or 2. You know, don't just buy a gun and think you're fucking John Wick out there. Alright? You know, when when you buy a firearm, it's a serious thing. And, you know, that's just added responsibility.  

[01:10:33] Unknown:

I mean, look. I think I think   Bitcoiners think we invented these concerns.   These concerns exist with every rich person.   Like, every visibly rich person   considers these these types of situations.  

[01:10:51] Unknown:

Except yet you can rewind   a bank level.  

[01:10:55] Unknown:

I mean, I guess you can. Right? But I mean, I I like, you just mentioned Brazil. Right? Like, Brazil has been having these concerns,   with no Bitcoin involved. Oh, man. Right? There's private securities. There's walls. There's gates. There's off duty police officers that are acting as private security.  

[01:11:12] Unknown:

They can do great reconstructive surgery for years there.   That's what you send to ask for money.  

[01:11:24] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's good to know a good one. Sorry. Another turn for the dark there.  

[01:11:30] Unknown:

My I guess my point is is that I think as I think this   is   a,   you know, the the this is a a a specific   growing pains period   where Bitcoiners will be targeted, because, ultimately,   every single rich person   will be a Bitcoiner in 5 years. Like, if, like, if you if if you don't own Bitcoin, you're not wealthy. Like, why don't you own Bitcoin? Like, that if it's the best money,   if it's designed to pump forever,   like, you're gonna have significant assets in Bitcoin,   and you should have at least some of it in self custody,   1, if you're not an idiot, and 2, just in case there's, like, a ransom situation and you need to get it quickly. I think the most important thing is we should all be in a position  

[01:12:18] Unknown:

where we're simply not in a position to sign   our wealth   in person.   It's as simple as that.   Right? Like, my case, somebody comes to my house. I I literally am not able to sign my wealth, period.   Right. It's a it's a multiday,   multilocation,   multi problem thing.   Right. It's   gonna take that that attackers are gonna have to wait a month or 2   together having tea in the house.   With me traveling to multiple place, it's very complicated.   Right? Absolutely.   So so in that sense, I mean, it's like,   you know?   And then and they also might have to deal with me.   So   you you just you you need to be in a position   where you're just simply not able to help your visitors immediately   by default,  

[01:13:16] Unknown:

provably. And I would say   the risk of k y c here are even greater. Right? The actual   knowing the the exact balances that people have, knowing the exact amount someone has,   it provides a much greater risk, and people should take that more seriously. Would you agree?  

[01:13:34] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like   so not doxing your TXOs   go a long way. Right? If people don't know how much you have is a big deal.   Right? I mean, like, sure. You know, we show up in podcast, whatever. People can wonder,   you know, if they only they knew that everybody that's in a podcast like this probably sold everything to invest in their own businesses at some point. But aside from those problems,   it it's like if people don't know what you have, it's they're more they're less likely to look at you, then you're gonna probably go after somebody else   that that is more obvious. Right? Like,   it it's like flashing wealth is never a good thing to begin with.  

And,   like, listen again. Right? Like and I and I can't understate this. It's like   advanced attackers can find you and will find you. Right? So so don't don't   don't believe that you're just because you have some name on Twitter, like, you were unfindable. Right? Like,   there is some smart people out there.   So so try not to dock your UTXOs   in any service to begin with. That that's goes a long way.   Then the second thing is just make sure you can't sign for it in a in a moment's notice. Right?   I think that's, that's the best advice I can give.  

[01:15:00] Unknown:

6102 is being censored right now.   So after Freak Mobile.   Yeah. I mean, I the it's a it's a very nuanced   it's a very nuanced discussion, and people are gonna need to you know, personal responsibility will always be the more difficult,   will always be the more difficult path. I I think it it's just like  

[01:15:23] Unknown:

this is a transitional period. Right? I mean, Bitcoin just happened. And to be fair, I mean, most bad guys probably out there are not even busy Bitcoiners yet,   so   and the baddest guide of all the state, But aside from that,   like,   we are gonna see a lot of market solutions   as things evolve. Right? Like, it's just that we don't have, like,   don't believe in the the bullshit out there. If there is   5,000,000 to 10,000,000 people   that own more than $50 worth of Bitcoin, it's probably, like, an overestimation.   Like, that's aside from the shitcoins.  

I I think   is is is a critical mass of consumers,   coming to the market.   You can have more r and d and more solutions,   and   and you can solve these problems. Right? Like, these are all   tech problems, really, you know, way or another. Right? Like, you can come up with devices that will be able to cosign things.   They'll be able to prove   to an attacker in your house that you don't have the funds there, that   that,   that, you you know, you can have panic buttons that will sort of lock the funds in some in some time lock to an emergency address.   So all kinds of shit that that will show up,   including,   you know, security services,   you know, intelligence services   for security.  

Like, some of the stuff already exists for very wealthy people. Right? Like, they they will have people monitoring their lives to make sure there's no threats. Right? Mhmm. So   a lot of these things will come about,   and and, you know, and they they will come into this space as   well. These these are not simple problems. They're extremely locally   based as well. Right? Like, if you live in in you know, where does Vitalik live now or, like, where you put a scammer like that? Switzerland somewhere. You   know, I'm sure there's no crime. There's nothing there. Right? So it's, like, different problems. Right?   You know, if you grew up in Sao Paulo, I mean, Sao Paulo is just Sao Paulo in an everyday problem base. Right? It's like nothing has changed.  

So Bitcoin or credit card is still, like, you know, in an armored car. Right?   These things will evolve, and and we're gonna sort of figure out, like, how how to go about it. I I wouldn't be I wouldn't lose sleep over it, just just make sure that you cannot sign your funds   in a in a notice space.  

[01:18:11] Unknown:

Yeah. That's great advice.   You know, multi sig is going a long way, and   you should definitely think about putting a setup like that if possible,   multi jurisdictional, you know, corrupt different countries if you can.  

[01:18:24] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:18:25] Unknown:

But, yeah, it's it's reassuring that more and more solutions are coming onto the market every day,   and, you know, things are becoming easier and more accessible.   But, you know, as you get more wealth in Bitcoin, these are things you're gonna have to,   think about. And, it's part of the game   of the personal responsibility  

[01:18:45] Unknown:

that this whole thing is all about. I think a lot of people, you know, in the very near future are gonna have a ton of their Bitcoin just parked   on a on a loan   against the Bitcoin to buy things. Right? Like, they're gonna buy houses. They're gonna buy they they need to live their lives. Right? Yeah. They're gonna have college. Like a block 5. Right? Like they're gonna have their stuff parked in places that they can't even move even with the gun to the head. Right? They wish they could move.   So I I the these things will start themselves out. It's just so early.  

[01:19:17] Unknown:

Well, I mean, I wanna push back a little bit on the idea. I I I think the idea that multisig   helps is is big. And,   our boy 61 or 2, who is   being actively censored right now by this,   chat feed,   would   his big thing is multi jurisdictional  

[01:19:38] Unknown:

multisig, which is pretty good. It really does.  

[01:19:41] Unknown:

Because   this idea that you have to your keys are in different jurisdictions. So not only does, like, your average,   you know, burglar have issues with trying to compromise your key setup, Your actual government is gonna have major issues. They're gonna have to put you into fucking jail and then  

[01:19:59] Unknown:

deal with you trying to access these keys from all different jurisdictions. Like, where is the best one located? What if the other keys are only accessible by you in person? So you actually have to literally hop an airplane.   To, like, in a non extradition country or something. Right? Like, what? Is the bad guy gonna go with you on the flight?   Right?   Like, things does get tricky. Right? Like so this is what I'm trying to explain. It's like you put yourself in a position that, like, it's gonna take a literal month or 2 for you to sign out   your $10,000.  



[01:20:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   That the seeds being distributed,   I mean and then on top of that, you could throw BIP 38   passphrases on top of them too. So even if the attacker was able to get all your keys, they still need to get the password out of you. There's so many different things you can Or or even a passphrase. Right?   Passphrase.  

[01:20:52] Unknown:

You know, maybe your passphrase is in a different country.   And and if you're doing your passphrase right, you cannot remember it. Yeah. Passphrase is like poor man's multisig.   No. It's it's   so What? What a beautiful thing about passphrase is,   it depends. Like, listen. Different people, different problems. Right? Mhmm. But one nice thing about the past phrase is that the past phrase does not have Bitcoin complication.   Right? It's just like a a salt essentially on top of it. Right? It's just like a little sprinkle   of entropy on top of your of your seed.  

And   and,   like, that helps a lot because you can still have a simple wallet. Right? You don't have to complicate anything with because see, one people one thing that people need to make sure is if you're using multisig,   you have a copy of the redeem script   because you don't know if this wallet provider will be around tomorrow. It's the reason why we started, like, the what was what's the website again? Wallets recovery.org.  

[01:21:51] Unknown:

Yeah. Great. Great site. Which, by the way, wallets recovery.com   redirects to coinkite. So just you should redirect it to Does it? Dot org, you asshole. Oh, it's old. No. I have that I have that link. This is me telling you to redirect it to the proper site. Oh, you know what? Just because you said that I won't.  

[01:22:11] Unknown:

No.   I have no ads on that website. Goddamn it. Walletsrecovery.org.  

[01:22:17] Unknown:

Here you go.  

[01:22:18] Unknown:

So, anyway, so the the point is,   and and their website only shows the derivation path. Right? I mean, it doesn't even have the redeem script to some of these wallets.   So,   if you are gonna use multisig for real money,   please have a key a a copy of your redeem script.   You need to be able to recover without the original wallet.   And with multisig, that is that can be a monumental problem. It could be irredeemable   problem.   Seriously, it could.   So,   so, so, yeah, so so that's one nice thing about the the pass phrase, especially for nontechnical people.   Pass phrase, you know, you have your seed in one place, you have your pass phrase in another, and,   you know, it's you know, if the entropy is right on this on the on the pass phrase, a 128 a 128 bits at minimum,   in all, you're good. How many is that? Six words   or 12 words? I can't remember now.  



[01:23:21] Unknown:

Oh, I've I was zoned out. So  

[01:23:25] Unknown:

that's a lot. Yeah. You should always have, like, I'd say, 6 words. Yeah. Minimum 6 words. Yeah. Anyways, go for 12. Why not? It's it's like it's it's it's a it's a half a plate. Are we talking about passphrase?   Yeah. Well, your micro SD cards default to 12. Yeah. So so that's that's it. Was that the question?   Anyways, go with that. Go with 12 words.   It's like it's half of a seed plate,   and it's a full of   some of the other plates.   And,   you know,   and then, like, I mean, good luck to an attacker. Right? Like, I mean, you're you're way past the point where somebody who who could own you entropy wise.   And it's nice. It's like it's like a lot of this stuff is like it may sound difficult, but it's peace of mind. Right? Like, you know, you can sleep at ease.  

Why not make banks actually useful and take advantage of their vaults to store your hardware wallet? So okay. So here's the truth about bank vaults in most countries, aside from, like, Monaco and Switzerland,   is that   bank vaults,   like safe deposit boxes,   anybody   with a fake ID   or maybe a fake ID plus a bank card can get into your safe deposit box. Okay? It's really does not seem that hard.   And if they don't have the key, which they won't, they're just gonna, like, show the ID and whatever, and they're gonna drill it and charge them $200 for the fee of of drilling the lock.   And then there is the fact that, like, government can go after your safe deposit box, especially if it's tax authority. Right? They don't actually   tax   the tax people in most countries have extrajudicial   powers,   so they could go after your bank vaults.  

So bank vaults are great if they don't have the full secret.   They are a fantastic place to keep,   encrypted bank card.  

[01:25:30] Unknown:

Somebody said bank vaults make no sense to me. No. They I mean or they they they do. Encrypt is not the card makes sense or multisig. They could be used in multisig. Yeah. But you should just assume that the bank vault has been compromised. If you use a bank vault, if you use a a safe deposit box, you should assume that safe deposit box is is fucking compromised, that people are accessing it all the time. That that should be the assumption you operate under.  

[01:25:52] Unknown:

Yep.   Next question.  

[01:25:58] Unknown:

Do you own coldcroc.com   or is that a freak trolling you? Oh my god. Whoever freak whichever  

[01:26:07] Unknown:

freak owns the domain,   I will trade you for a cold card.   Guys, charge more than that, And Ping me on Twitter, and I'll trade you that domain.  

[01:26:19] Unknown:

So, Freaks, I mean, we're way behind schedule here. I appreciate you all joining us   for the first episode   of Citadel Dispatch.   Pretty hyped about releasing this. I I literally had 2 weeks left to be able to claim that,   this show launched in 2020, so here we go.   But   we've entered the q and a period. So if you wanna hit us with   your hard questions,   I mean, now's now's the time to hit us with these questions. Hang on. I pushed my wife. I'm gonna go get some bourbon. One second. Oh, Robert Hamilton owns that. He bought Cold Crock. Nice. So   Robert Robert Cronk run. Robert, you hold on to you huddle that domain. Like, you're gonna make Rodolfo pay millions of sats for that domain at some point.  



[01:27:07] Unknown:

Fuck it. When Bitcoin is, $1,000,000   per coin, you'll buy Crocs. Look.  

[01:27:12] Unknown:

Robert is very low time preference. He he wants he wants you to send me a cold card, and then he'll give it to you. Alright. Deal.  

[01:27:20] Unknown:

You got a deal, sir.  

[01:27:23] Unknown:

Okay. Unchained Capital. We have a question about Unchained Capital. They are a sponsor of the podcast.   But are they sponsor   on that.   They're also my boys. I like them a lot. Yeah. They do. So, I mean, it it's they offer a great service.   You know, they hold your hand, and you have to trust them with your   That's a similar trade off to Casa.   I I really like Unchained also offers you the ability to take out a loan,   collateralized by your Bitcoin, which I don't really love   at least right now for me. I guess if the price goes up, I might like it more. It's it's it's basically a tax preferred way of   taking money out of your Bitcoin because, in the US at least, you don't pay capital gains tax if you do it that way.  

But if you do that, you have to make sure that you,   you're over collateralized because you could have a March 12th incident where the price just goes down, you know, 50, 60 percent on you. And if you're not ready for that, you're gonna lose your Bitcoin. So most of those loans,  

[01:28:30] Unknown:

so the way it works is they'll take you they they will remind you at 70%,   75%,   and then at 80%   of your principal, that's when they will   margin call you.   They'll liquidate you. But the problem with March March 12th is all those notifications happened in, like, 5 minutes. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, that's that's ultimately, that's the problem that I have with a lot of these loan companies is that they need to to, to create what I call balls   and then, and then sort of figure out how to create a buffer to deal with that problem. Right? Because it shouldn't be a customer problem. Like, nobody can send you a transaction in 5 minutes because But it I mean it may be in the shitter. The thing is the thing is is, like, when you deal with mortgages with houses, like, the housing market doesn't fall apart in a period of 45 minutes. But the thing is So  

[01:29:21] Unknown:

people are learning on the fly here. Yeah. I it's important   to delineate between the two products. They have their handheld   multisig service, where they are a cosigner. They have one key for you.   You are trusting them with your privacy. And then they have the second service, which is this loan product, which the loan product is absolutely best in class. It's the only product   that lets you actually know your coins aren't being re lent out.   You can see them on chain,   and you're not only trusting Unchained with it. They have a third party that held holds the 3rd key. So Unchained has a key, 3rd party has a key, and you have a key.   So so in a situation where they have to take your collateral from you, they're gonna go to that 3rd party legally,   and they're gonna petition them to get access to your coins, which is not the case with their competitors.  

So if you are gonna go for a loan product, there there's no better option. And if you're gonna go for a hosted multisig because you want your handheld,   I I think they're a very good option. But you are trusting them with your privacy, and it's important to realize that trade off.   Rodolfo, what do you think about Shamir's secrets? Why why don't we have that on cold card yet?  

[01:30:36] Unknown:

We already have encrypted backup.  

[01:30:41] Unknown:

It solves the same concept or the same same same situation.  

[01:30:45] Unknown:

It's the same minus the complication.   Like so   see, with Shamir, like, Shamir is great, and and we, you know, we wanna add it. Not not   not the slip Shamir because that's extra   complicated   for no reason. So if I if we were to implement Shamir, we would   have 3 shares, so 3 SD cards   that would be interchangeable   ideally   in implementation   where the order doesn't matter. So if you have 2, you're good. Right?   But but, but Shamir, for the sake of Shamir,   just to be,   you know, just just   just to have the bullet point, we're not gonna do it. We already have, like   the the micro SD encryption that we have is solid. Right? Like, it's shot to 56,   AES   CTR.  



[01:31:40] Unknown:

I like that it looks like a seed.  

[01:31:43] Unknown:

It's yeah. I mean, it's not a great thing. We are using your we are using BIP 39 c we are using BIP 39 words   so that there is no confusion. There's no way for you to fuck it up. It's only 12 words.   And you know what's funny?   This is this is a cool one. Somebody suggested.   So you can set up another cold card   with those 12 words as the seed,   as your honeypot.   So   you have   those seeds  

[01:32:14] Unknown:

though, those seeds which are the encryption keys for the auto one. Is it a valid seed? Yeah. I mean With the checksum and everything?  

[01:32:21] Unknown:

I think it is. I can't I I I yeah.  

[01:32:25] Unknown:

I can't remember now a 100% if you have to ignore validation or not. I kinda like if it I I I hope it's a real seed. If it's not, it should be in the next firmware update.   I like that idea. I like that concept. I love that, like, in the next firmware update as if we don't have a massive list.   Jesus Christ, did you see the side in the next firmware? Note it. Note it, Rodolfo. I'll let I'll I'll remind you every single rabbit hole recap if we don't fucking do it. A barrier on you. Noted.   Fucking noted.   We have 6102 has 2 comments.  

He he wants to say that,   he thinks even though his multisig   jurisdictional   idea is fucking genius,   he thinks that you should also have   some Bitcoin on hand that you can hand an attacker just so that they're happy and they fucking leave, and they just don't bother you anymore.   Yes. They they have gross money. Good advice. And then he also has a hard hitting question for you, Rodolfo.   No.   When when QR codes?  

[01:33:29] Unknown:

So we already support QR codes for the Explorer. Right? If you   type if you type I can't remember now if it's 4 or 6 on the block explorer. 4.   4.   I don't use that feature. See, I use the feature in the cloud. Use that feature. You should verify your addresses. Dude, we have too much Why aren't you doing it? Joe fucking needs to verify. They it's this paranoia   stuff. Wow. Wow. You guys you guys click that out and post that to Twitter. Totally go way too far this shit. Listen, we build the features. Right? Like, you guys go way too far this shit. I just make sure I, you know, I don't go to, like, you know,   when when when some porn. Exe shows up on my email, I don't click on it. Right? Like, it's that simple.  

Anyways,   so okay, so the maximum amount of data we can support to the current hardware on the screen,   okay, is an address.   But, but look, okay, so   fuck, a few things. So   q QR codes are fun and great. We love them. We loved them before Bitcoin,   okay, as a company.   We were doing QR codes at fucking payment terminals before   color screens were around Bitcoin.   Okay.   We got it. Exactly. Right? So so so the problem is two things. There's cost. K? So as the screen size increases and you don't give up security,   the the cost of the overall hardware is gonna increase, so that's one   thing.  

So that's just for the display side. Right? And then there's the camera side. Great. More money.   But then   PSBTs are large.   PSBTs   for multi sig of complex transactions can get very large.   So, you know, I know that kids like to play with the animated QRs, but they have limits too,   and and they're not human legible.   I have a major problem with shit that's not human legible.   So do you know how you like to check your address on your cold card with the QR that you just said? That I don't even do it.   I I check my see, this to me is the beautiful thing of Bitcoin. It's like you read the shit on the screen and then you don't get robbed.   Right? But this is air gap mode, the only way to do that is if you go to address explorer. Right. That's the problem. So now if you're using the microSD, you shuffle your stuff, you check on the computer, you check on the signing   part, right, you should be good.  

Now with QR's, QR's are great, are fun, are very easy, especially good for setting up wallets   more than they are for transactions   because   nobody should have their fucking hardware wallets in their pockets.   If you have your hardware wallet in your pockets, you should seriously seek some psychological help.   Okay? Like, don't. Just like if you have pocket money, pocket put on your phone, put it in a in a single sig hot wallet. Who cares? It's it's like it's   hot money. Right?   Hardware wallets are not a device for you to keep around. Right? They're they're not supposed to feel friendly like you should have them in your pocket or in your butt. Like, don't do it.  

[01:36:52] Unknown:

And and and I should Bitcoin fixes putting anything in your butt, freaks. Like, those things are true. In their butt. Let's just get that settled. It's a surprising amount of compressed data. They're trying progress realization, not regret it back.   Seriously, it's like I I pushed back on Bitcoin fixes this meme, but Bitcoin fixes, you know, putting financial instruments in your asshole. You know, you don't have to do anything. Old card, not not about OpenDime.  

[01:37:19] Unknown:

So Well, the option exists at least. It it does.  

[01:37:22] Unknown:

No. But seriously, it's like,   I I I and I and I think we should seriously, like, push back on on devices and people out there who talk about, oh, this device is great. It feels great in the hand, and you wanna take this with you.   No. This device should be closed in some corner   somewhere not available to you. Right? Like  

[01:37:43] Unknown:

like any Rodolfo, you've gone into, like, a long tangent. Yes. The the answer is he's gonna release one that can scan QR codes and do Ts through QR codes eventually. Yeah. Same problem. Yeah. Of course, we're gonna make we we have a device Thank you, Rodol. Okay. We have a side project  

[01:38:01] Unknown:

that's becoming a full time project   to make exactly. Right? That is to make, like, a proper hardware wallet   with QR code and camera, not, like, what's available right now.  

[01:38:14] Unknown:

There we go, Freaks. You heard it here first. This is why you tune in this is why you tune in to Citadel dispatch. You get Oh, good. Information.  

[01:38:22] Unknown:

But here's the point, though. It's not necessarily   you might be gaining a few points in in   in in UX. Right? But, like,   we still gonna sell   mark 3 or mark 4 to the reasonable people that don't want QR codes and cameras on their hardware wallets. Mhmm.   But I I think there is enough demand for people that wanna pay a lot more   and get a device that has a camera and a bigger screen.   I think that would be great for operational wallets   so that you you know, like, your your admin funds or your everyday   sort of need to spend from your desk kinda deal,   as opposed to your listen. Your holdout should not be available by a picture.  



[01:39:09] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:39:10] Unknown:

You don't wanna make that shit easy.   Like, it's insanity to me when people talk about making Bitcoin easy. No.   If it's your real money, don't make it easy.   Hard. Very hard.   Under a mine hard.   Do I need to add more adjectives?  

[01:39:33] Unknown:

No. That I I'm glad I got you to nail down the point.   There's a question for me from Roman. Do I still recommend Resabe, or is it currently too flawed to use?   I I don't recommend the coin join.   I I think you should either use Whirlpool or join the market,   but I do think it is is is useful to access your cold card. It's it's a very nice, easy way to access your cold card without your own node.   I do think it's preferable for you to use,   Specter   and Bitcoin Core with your cold card. I think that's the better way to do it, but then you have to use your, you you know, the Bitcoin Core is your your own node. So it it does require more bandwidth, and it does require more storage space. But, you can use it pruned, so it's like 10 gigs of storage.   So I don't really think it's that much of a negative. And you can find that guide at we run bitcoin.com.  

And what's cool is if you followed my previous guide with Wasabi and Coldcard,   it's the same derivation paths and everything. You just follow the fucking wizard inspector, and your wallet will show up. You don't have to, like, transfer anything.  

[01:40:39] Unknown:

Mike has well, Mac. Mac has great guides, by the way. Go to all his 50,000 domains. He has a domain.  

[01:40:46] Unknown:

Yeah. The only person who rivals me in domains is you, mister Cole. Oh, I don't have I might have 1 or 2. That's it.  

[01:40:54] Unknown:

So   I I you know, it's kinda funny, like so the weatherman is always wrong. Right? Like, about the weather. Right?   So, you know, we know that. Right? I mean, you check what what's is it gonna be cold or hot today? They're always wrong. Right? So the weatherman is always wrong,   and the and the the weatherman works for big media.   So   I I I think there is one interesting point though is there is no harm   in in people having a separate computer.   Right? Like, you know, get yourself a cheaper laptop or your older model   that has a full running   sorry, a full node running on it.  

It has, you know, your preferred wallet, maybe has a few other wallets that you like playing with. You know, it has proper,   disk encryption running on it. You know? And then it's like a laptop that you can experiment on, you you know, in terms of, like, trying to secure it further and stuff.   It's not you're not gonna have private keys in this computer,   but this is gonna be, like, a reasonably clean   computer   where you don't add your   Gmail shit in it,   and and that's where you you you do your   your accounting. Right? Your your Bitcoin.   It's it's a great way of just making sure that, you know, when you click on porn. Exe on your email, it doesn't open your Electrum and sends everything out, right?  

It's such a, like, a a simple   thing to do. Just segregate   your your needs.  

[01:42:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean and if you own $500 in Bitcoin, like, whatever. Fucking YOLO.   You know? But as you own more,   like, you should spend the extra $400 to have a   dedicated fucking computer for it.  

[01:42:49] Unknown:

Yeah. It's,   no. I mean, listen. People should have a dedicated computer regardless. Right? Like, for your online banking.  

[01:42:56] Unknown:

Yeah. But, I mean, if you're if you're a pleb if you're a a proper pleb and you, you know, you have fucking nothing, like, I understand that. The same as podcast. You should be going to find the means of income. This is the first step, Rodolfo. This is the first step. Go find income. Stop listening to podcast.  

[01:43:14] Unknown:

Find income, people. Oh, but what if they're in the middle of the night while they're working their job, you know?  

[01:43:20] Unknown:

Oh, that's true.  

[01:43:22] Unknown:

See? They're bettering themselves in 2 ways at once.  

[01:43:25] Unknown:

Rodolfo, what's the lifespan of an MK 3?  

[01:43:29] Unknown:

Wait.   Well, I mean, like, forever   ish, not.   Did you say that's a puppy sale? I'm tired. Oh, no. So so, like, this is the problem. Right? Like and   so this is a new technology. Right? Like, Bitcoin is a completely new thing. Never existed. It's it's like, sure, the, the crypto on it is old,   but   this problems have never existed before. Right? We have never had to hold   the money in the computer.   Right? Like that, just   mind exploding.   So   as we try to figure out how to do this right,   like,   and and as These coal mines are hard work, man. Right. Exactly. Hard work.   So so, like,   you you you have to, like,   you're gonna have to evolve the hardware. Right? Like, there's a reason why you don't use,   like, old phones and, like, you know, the the the phone you get a new phone from Apple fucking every year. Right? Sure. You don't get a lot those days, but you used to.  

You used to get substantially new things   in it, and and remember, right, like, I mean, if you guys were willing to buy a $10,000   hardware wallet, I mean, you know, I could do magic.   Like, you're good for fucking 10000 years,   Seriously.   But I can't. Right? I have to sell you, like, some $100 device, so I have to work with with, like, economies   with, like, market economies. So   we're trying to figure out how to do this stuff,   in a way that is economical   and and it's as secure as possible,   and and if you have to spend an extra $100 every couple of years or so on a new one, well, so be it. And if you don't wanna follow along, well, too bad. So what are you saying? What are you saying? Are you saying the life span's a couple years? Is that what you're saying? No. I mean, listen. Mark one is still more secure than the Trezor   without the updates.  

So it's not a simple answer.  

[01:45:35] Unknown:

Joe   Joe is asking us why do people keep sharing the ledger list. You have to assume the ledger list is accessed by every single person. Like, that's that's that's just the result. Once it hits the Internet, ask Barbara Streisand about it. Once it hits the Internet, it's done.  

[01:45:49] Unknown:

Forget about it. Doesn't know. She's still complaining to her lawyer. Take it down.  

[01:45:55] Unknown:

I'm not I see I I've seen that ledger is going around. I know there's, like, one site. I forget intelx   dot io or something.  

[01:46:03] Unknown:

Guys. It's it's done. It's probably a torrent.  

[01:46:05] Unknown:

Done. This is not trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube is not the right approach. Best approach is to make sure that all the people that are on this list know that they're on the list.   Yep. It's done.  

[01:46:17] Unknown:

The problem is it's hard to notify them because they're getting so many fucking ledger fake emails sending warning them.  

[01:46:25] Unknown:

So   if if you're you get if you're able to get your hands on the list, you know, do a little pass, see if your friends, your family, anyone you might know is on there and, you know They ask Jeff in and let them know. Tell everybody you know that is not necessarily super, you know, not clicking on the button on an email kind of person,  

[01:46:44] Unknown:

Just mark as spam.  

[01:46:47] Unknown:

This is why That's it. This is why I mean, Rodolfo, to to push back. Like, this is I mean, that's why Gmail's kinda nice for the average user. Right? Because if a bunch of us are clicking mark spam, then it won't show up in their inbox.  

[01:47:03] Unknown:

So for example, till this day,   we don't accept Yahoo emails on Kuang Kai shopping cart because   I may have been, like, 5, 6 years, 7 years ago when, Yahoo decided to, block our way of doing DKIM because we do it the right way, and they don't believe in our way of doing it. In an email, sir, such a pain. There's so many challenges. It it's a nightmare.   So email   was essentially all cattle into you having to pay a provider,  

[01:47:33] Unknown:

period. You cannot run your own email server. We can run an email server. We try. Alex Cho Alex Cho is asking if he's on the list. He said he Fine. Amazon. I personally bought some ledgers from Amazon, and I'm not on the list. I think If you bought from Amazon, you're not on the list automatically. I mean buy hardware wallets outside of the original  

[01:47:53] Unknown:

reseller, please.  

[01:47:54] Unknown:

I know. The other ones. Amazon. You're on a different list, Alex, but you're not on this list. Exactly.  

[01:48:02] Unknown:

You are the IRS naughty list.  

[01:48:05] Unknown:

But but but but the reason you shouldn't buy from Amazon isn't because of the list. It's because you might be sent a device that is not the real device. Yeah. That's the risk. Exactly. And and with Ledger, they have the secure element, so when you connect it to Ledger Live, it's supposed to authenticate. So, like,   out of all of the one out of all the hardware wallets,   if you're gonna buy any from Amazon   Don't.   But you shouldn't.  

[01:48:30] Unknown:

No. No. You buy either direct   okay. Because think about it this way. Amazon is selling your fucking information to everybody else. Yeah. Amazon's a marketing company. Let's be honest. Exactly. Ledger is only leaking it   to the whole Internet.   No. But seriously, like, don't. Okay? My diapers in general shouldn't use Amazon. Like, we just shouldn't be using Amazon for this. That is just to Go to your local main street Wait until you have to buy and go buy things from them. Matt, wait until you have to buy diapers. Yeah. Alex Then you're gonna be you're gonna go Amazon maximalism.  

[01:49:06] Unknown:

Look, Rodolfo. I've told Marty this, and I'll tell you this on air.   The important thing is that you price all of your diapers and sets so that it can truly destroy you in 10 years.  

[01:49:18] Unknown:

Good. Domains did that to me already.  

[01:49:22] Unknown:

Danny wants us to just ledger should have just sold the data and monetized it. They probably already did. Keep it simple, Bitcoin. Just fucking send me a message on Keybase, and I'll send you the fucking list. Bro. We'll we'll hook you up with it and Dude, does anyone else have   if if any if anyone has an issue where they bought a ledger or whatever, you can send me the email, and I'll look it up for you and let you know.  

[01:49:44] Unknown:

Yeah. Oh, so this is a key thing here. Okay? Whenever there is a leak of any website,   never, never   go on a website that claims to check for you and type your goddamn information.  

[01:49:58] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. That's one thing. That's one thing that's interesting here is that everyone's telling people to go to have I been pwned.com, which I love their website. They're a fantastic website,   but they they don't tell you if   if you're part of the email side or if you're part of the mailing address side.   If because I was part of the email side, and they told me I was part of the email side, but they said   that addresses were released or whatever. They don't they don't make it clear.   Gotcha.   So so   if you if you go to have I been pwned.com, it might tell you that you've your mailing address has been exposed, but 750,000   people, that's not the case. Somebody's asking here, Alex Cho, is BlockFi safe? No. BlockFi is not safe, Alex.  



[01:50:44] Unknown:

I mean, listen. It's all your money. It's a tricky question. Right? It is nuance. I would say it is as safe as a payday loan website.  

[01:50:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Payday loans are like the least  

[01:50:55] Unknown:

they're like the most malicious fucking financial company. I mean, I know, dude. It's tricky. Right? Like, they're the only people willing to also give loan to people that don't pay back. Right? So it's it's not it's it's complicated.   Who else?  

[01:51:12] Unknown:

Cloth diapers for the win. Yeah. Fuck cloth diapers. My problem with BlockFi is it's twofold. It's custodial, and it's heavily KYC ed. Yes. So so it's a black box. You're sending your Bitcoin into a black box,   and they're gonna KYC you on on top of that. So you're trusting them with your private information, and you're trusting them with your Bitcoin. If you wanna do that, feel free to do that. It's a free market, and I believe that people should have options. But I think it's a it's a bad idea for 99%   of people.  

I think most people will regret it ultimately. But I I'm I'm completely cool. I I I personally think that people have the right to get wrecked. Like, if you wanna go buy something for Ripple, go buy Ripple. I'm cool with that. You go buy Ripple. Store all your wealth in fucking pennies if you wanna store your wealth in pennies. I'm cool with that. If you want a Bitcoin backed loan, at least go with, like, Unchained or Landon or So Robert Hamilton is destroying you, bro.   Crockkite.com  

[01:52:06] Unknown:

now redirects the cold card. Oh, okay. No. I I I accept that. I accept that.   No. Now if you really, really, like, wants to take this to the next level, you would make a picture of a cold card with 2 crocs on it and make a single page website.   But, anyways,   that's what I would do.   Now,   Honey and Honor on Twitter is asking, Matt, is this going on the pod?  

[01:52:34] Unknown:

Yes. Like, are you gonna release this on the pod feed? Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be on the pod as audio only. Hell yeah. Obviously, because it's a pod.  

[01:52:42] Unknown:

Are they ready for that?  

[01:52:45] Unknown:

I mean, I I I I think I think they're gonna love it. Yeah. I think we did a pretty good job at reading out the questions. I don't think too much will be I mean, I we were supposed to cut it at fucking 1 hour.   I I told you, dude. It's like So I'm gonna cut it at 2 hours officially. So   you you have 7 minutes you have 7 minutes for questions. Let's make it happen.  

[01:53:06] Unknown:

Alright. Alright. Let let me grab some. There was a lightning question it.   At.   God. I can't   scroll.  

[01:53:14] Unknown:

I'm scrolling. Was about,  

[01:53:17] Unknown:

whether   custodial lightning wallets are gonna be the main way that people transact.   And, it's a fantastic question.   I think,   custodial wallets are definitely gonna be an inevitability in the space, and it's gonna be a way a lot of people transact.   But the way that Lightning,   is set up and the tech that, you know, is out there and and the non custodial wallets that we have, I've been really pushing noobs to really check out Breeze and Phoenix.   I think that the fees are gonna be able to be low enough and reasonable for these wallets that,   a lot of people are gonna be able to just   control their own keys and not go to the custodial route. So I think there's gonna be, ample competition for people to   route of keeping their own keys,   you know, they're still gonna be able to use everything without enduring  

[01:54:14] Unknown:

too many fees on lightning. Well, I mean, I wanna push back on that a little bit. Right? Like, there's nuance in lightning land.  

[01:54:21] Unknown:

Is this when I shit on lightning or no? No. Not yet. One second,  

[01:54:25] Unknown:

Rodolfo. Just hold on. Just give me a moment. You you you go, man. Go up, Rodolfo. Remember, the book is still spinning. They give me a block mark. Before before we have the NVK FUD, the proper FUD,   I I I wanna hit you with some light FUD.   It is. I love I love the guys at Breeze. I think they they have a fantastic product. I fully support it. I show it all the time. I have a guide for it. I love Phoenix Wallet.   It's quasi custodial.   Right? Like, there's there's trust. You it it it involves trust in the centralized third party. You're trusting them to maintain the chain the channels for you. And   Yeah. If you trust someone to maintain your payment channels,   like, that's fucking custody.  



[01:55:17] Unknown:

In a way, I mean, if you could recover the funds   from   the seed that you get,   is it though I mean, you're more so trusting them with information that's going over the wire than And they can fuck you. If they wanted to fuck you, they could fuck you.   By   tracking where the transactions are going in that regard, yeah. If you're not running your own full node, which you totally should, you should get on lightning if you have a full   node, set that up,   have a device that's running 247,   connect with something thing like a Zap or a Zeus,   and manage Lightning Network. That's the best way to use Lightning Network.  

However, for people just   getting their feet wet,   custodial is completely fine. If you wanna take it one more step,   the non custodial options like Breeze and Phoenix are   really, really good right now. I mean, their their caveats, you know, the the channels that are open to you are sort of limited, and you're trusting them   to know what those channels are and those transactions going over the wire. But you could essentially always pull your funds off of them if you have to see.  

[01:56:26] Unknown:

Okay. I mean, I think you just I mean,   I respect the shit out of you, but I I feel like you just kind of   glossed over the the the real the real nut of the issue there. Can you kick at the fucking funds out? You're fucked.  

[01:56:41] Unknown:

Yeah. You know, that's the problem with lightning. I'm cool. I'm fine with it. No. So I I use lightning custodial only. Right? There is no fucking way I'm gonna waste the time that it is to fucking suck the shit up. Have the seed. If you have the seed, right, you could force the channel close. Right? And you get your thumbs up. Who's forcing channel closes on Breeze? No one Somebody needs to make closed on Breeze. So do you know how you can have a sweep,   a sweep,   private key on most   more interesting   wallets for Bitcoin.  

Somebody needs to make a an equivalent feature on lightning wallets.   It's like,   here's the secret I have for lightning.   Go get my money.   It's not necessarily possible.  

[01:57:30] Unknown:

Sorry. One second here. In it, certainly, it's not the same as Yeah. You know, pulling it off an on chain wall. It's not. It's it's a total different beast. Like, you know,  

[01:57:40] Unknown:

I shit on lightning mostly because it's not really Bitcoin. It's a whole completely different be it's based on Bitcoin, but it's a completely different beast.   I think   custodial   is how lightning is gonna play out,   and I don't think there's a problem with that because the amounts are so low.   And and that's   the sweet spot for it. Right? That's the whole purpose of it.  

[01:58:06] Unknown:

Yeah. That's true. Right? Because If you're looking to count, it's not like you're gonna be storing large amounts for long term storage there unless you're, like, a big entity, like, an exchange, or you're doing routing. That's a good point. Mhmm.  

[01:58:20] Unknown:

So I I,   you know, the the the custodial ones are are getting better.   I personally use BlueWallet. I have some,   I think, probably,   $200 on a on a BlueWallet,   Lightning Wallet Custodial.   That's that's, that's somebody   bought   a couple code cards from me in a taxi in Riga.   No. Seriously.   We were in a taxi sitting on the back of the taxi, and somebody gave me in Riga. It's like a it's a good place to be. I've been there. And and somebody gave me $200 worth of Bitcoin   over   lightning.   That was, yeah, that's the only lightning I have.   I've tried running the lightning node shit and all that stuff. It's just Jesus Christ. Like, no. It's just it's just it's just too much.  

I I think   I think there is a lot to go.   It's cool, though.   It's necessary.   It's just the fees are not high enough yet on Bitcoin for people to start saying, fuck yeah. I will enlighten me.  

[01:59:34] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you need the fees to go up. Like, let's be honest here. I don't know if the fees don't go up. That's gonna be the main driver for Right. The network to grow and for people to get onboarded. The fees I I agree with that. But the lightning channel fee stuff has not been sorted out yet with high fees.  

[01:59:49] Unknown:

That's another sort of open problem.  

[01:59:53] Unknown:

I mean, certainly,   as fees go up on train,   operators   will be,   you know, rising in their   lightning routing fees. We're gonna definitely be seeing that. But, you know, we we gotta see all the dynamics in play, and we're really not gonna   see what happens probably until next year and   when when we see that be rushed when we see that mania again. So it's gonna be really interesting this next year to see how that all plays out.  

[02:00:22] Unknown:

Is there a way to do   lightning   of liquid?  

[02:00:29] Unknown:

Lightning of liquid? Yeah. Isn't   liquid in itself a network? Why would that need another lightning layer? I'm just curious because the fees are, like, nothing  

[02:00:42] Unknown:

on liquid.   That could be an interesting way of doing gambling.   Never mind.   Different conversation.  

[02:00:53] Unknown:

I think they're sort of competing entities and competing networks. No. I think they solve different problems.   Yeah.   Well,   yes and no. I mean,   you're also gonna   potentially see interesting stuff like RGB where people are gonna be creating assets on LN, and that's gonna be gone head to head with Liquid  

[02:01:11] Unknown:

and creating tokens on that. Wait. Are they gonna do NFT shit on   RGB   over Lightning?  

[02:01:18] Unknown:

Well, the RGB team is trying. They they wanna push that forward. That'd be pretty cool, actually.  

[02:01:24] Unknown:

I mean because because RGB has been around for, like, Jesus Christ, how many years. Right? Like and and just never sort of took off. I want all the scams to come to Bitcoin.   No. Seriously. I want every single scam that exists in every single shit coin   to I want all that value to be sort of swollen by Bitcoin. Right?  

[02:01:48] Unknown:

Well, I I think we're definitely gonna see a lot of that come this way   both through RGB, on ln,   and, liquid   for sure.  

[02:01:57] Unknown:

Yep.   Alright, Matt. More questions.  

[02:02:04] Unknown:

I thought something about password managers.  

[02:02:06] Unknown:

Somehow   somehow the the screen share got fucked up. I was trying to I saw that. The the the dashboard's gone. Bitcoin is pumping right now. Oh, it's, I'm trying to get a live Shit. It's 30,000. Feel like it's important.  

[02:02:20] Unknown:

It's, 30,700  

[02:02:22] Unknown:

Canadian on my block clock meeting. You're about to push 24 k USD?  

[02:02:28] Unknown:

Robert is telling me that if Marty was hosting this, it'd be a 3 hour pod, but Marty but Matt is a party pooper. Yeah. Exactly. Marty's a totally party pooper. Right, Matt? This is ridiculous.   We provided a shit ton of content for you guys,   this this week, the holiday week of Christmas week.   While other media outlets, so called media outlets, were like, oh, we're gonna take a holiday break. Bullshit holiday break. TFTC doesn't take a holiday break.   So we've we've launched a new show   in the middle of this fucking break while we're fucking loading you with content.  

[02:03:06] Unknown:

So so, Matt, do you send us the check at the end of this, or how does this work?  

[02:03:10] Unknown:

What what it we're we're gonna put the this track is gonna go into the the RSS feed after after this. Hell yeah.  

[02:03:18] Unknown:

Evan, do you do you, do you agree with that?   I don't   know.  

[02:03:24] Unknown:

I don't know. It might might end up sending a lightning invoice to Matt. Let's see.  

[02:03:30] Unknown:

So we have I I think KeePass is the best password manager. Put it on encrypted cloud storage like Nest Cloud, Trezorit is what Travix said.  

[02:03:39] Unknown:

Do not put your passwords in the fucking cloud.  

[02:03:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Fuck that, guys. Snapchat,   great   pass x, really good.   Oh.   Great format for doing stuff, but don't put that shit in the cloud. Why don't you try that? Make some USB backups and encrypt them if you can. But And and whatever you do,  

[02:03:59] Unknown:

like, seriously, do not use your fucking hardware wallet for email login   with those, u two f tokens.   Do not   plug your fucking hardware wallets on a computer.   It was a very bad idea   that people   should not have done.  

[02:04:21] Unknown:

Okay.   That was pretty intense. I agree. I I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't I think KeePass is the best option, though. Like, you should use KeePass, but but use it offline   and store your backups offline. What about PaaS? PaaS is great. Or or or or if honestly,   like, just a notebook   where you keep your passwords and you secure the notebook securely There you go. Yeah. It's, like, not a bad idea. It's, like, really not it's, like, a very easy   concept for people to understand.  

[02:04:52] Unknown:

Boomer friendly.   Hey.  

[02:04:55] Unknown:

You'll ask, Wu. The reason we did 6 PM New York time was so that you could watch you can listen to this live,   because you're European. There will never be a morning show, because mornings fucking suck. Why would I why would I participate   in   in broadcasting during mornings? Like, mornings are for me. I'm gonna enjoy my mornings. Plus, you can't drink on a morning unless you're an alcoholic. Yeah. Exactly. So, like, what? I'm gonna fucking come on here sober? Like, that's ridiculous. It's a it's a horrible concept. Coffee, you know?  

[02:05:29] Unknown:

Irish an Irish coffee could be pretty good.  

[02:05:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   But for a morning show  

[02:05:35] Unknown:

The thing is you won't get shit done the rest of the day. Yeah. That's the real kicker. If Marty was hosting, we'd be over 24 k. Fuck you.  

[02:05:45] Unknown:

Unsubscribe.  

[02:05:46] Unknown:

Okay. Next question. So Brijan guy asked if, if his, model t is safe over a mark 3. No.  

[02:05:55] Unknown:

Sorry. It it it is. I mean, I this guy mark 3? No. Not over a mark 3, but it's fine for most situations. I mean, you're recommending Electrum for boomers. Like, that's fucking ridiculous. It's a different problem. Like,   VeriCrypt is probably backdoored. Yes. Yes.  

[02:06:14] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. No. Just use PaaS. Okay? If you have any command line capabilities,   there is this this open source program that's based on PGP. So they don't try to roll on their own crypt, which is normally the problem.   It's called PaaS, p a s s. That's it.   This app well, it's a it's a command line app. You install it   from brew. Oh, you wanna have to link that one. People are gonna ask the screen.  

[02:06:43] Unknown:

What?   You might want have to link that one. That might not be the easiest one to Google, pass.  

[02:06:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a problem. It's kinda like calling your You got broke. It's like calling your like calling your band various artists in the iPad era. It's no go. Fuck. It's a great name for a company that would never be Googleable. We broke 24 k.  

[02:07:03] Unknown:

Boom. Alright, guys. Stay humble. It wasn't our it was my Yeah. No. It was totally this feat a 100%.   It was all us.  

[02:07:11] Unknown:

A 100%.   We told do you know why?  

[02:07:30] Unknown:

I did it hit you? Did it hit you? Matt,  

[02:07:33] Unknown:

do you know how we broke it's all of our fault for breaking 24?   We told everybody to take the money out of the the exchanges,  

[02:07:43] Unknown:

so there was no liquidity.   Exactly.  

[02:07:46] Unknown:

It's a it's a short squeeze.  

[02:07:50] Unknown:

Man, you should do this regularly every week, Matt. That's right. I mean, I I think that's the plan. The plan is if the freaks like it, should we do this every week? I I I think   I think, the every week is the plan.   Yeah. There we go. This is fun.   Matt is trying to hold you back. Don't stay humble.   I think we were Raptors do that. Come on.   This is fucking fantastic.   I love you all. Alright. A special thanks to Evan and   Enrique for joining us.   Yeah. It was a real honor. This is why this is why we Bitcoin.  

[02:08:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Thanks for having us, man. Wait. It's Christmas week. Alright.  

[02:08:34] Unknown:

Who   gives Matt DeBass   nickname   on the comments gets a free code card.   And wait for the rain.  

[02:08:47] Unknown:

I'm willing to play this game. So I'll tell you. It has to be both  

[02:08:51] Unknown:

funny  

[02:08:53] Unknown:

and fitting. Marty did it. It was the mention of Marty's name put us over 24 k, and I I agree for dive the Dow.   Well, it certainly didn't hurt. Who's who's who's who's who's who's who's  

[02:09:03] Unknown:

who's  

[02:09:04] Unknown:

I like that. For people. He does not deserve a fucking cold card. 1st question. That was pretty cool.   For. Ask Scrooge O'Dell for his email address. Never give him a fucking Coin Kai device ever.  

[02:09:26] Unknown:

I don't know, man. Scrooge Adele, I think, might get, like, extra prizes. I know. Scrooge Adele is really good. I agree. Really is good.  

[02:09:33] Unknown:

Uncle Jim is understood.  

[02:09:37] Unknown:

We know we know uncle Jim already. Registered the domain before it's taken.   No. No. Uncle Jim was taken, like, in 2007 by some fucking asshole.   Stay drunk. That was so good.  

[02:09:51] Unknown:

That's the way better. Oh, yeah. Blue Shield go dirt.  

[02:09:54] Unknown:

I'm wearing that right now.  

[02:09:58] Unknown:

Masks of mud, Maddie.   No. This this is, this is definitely entertaining.   Blue Steel Joe Dirt. Let's fucking go. Oh, we got we got a chem a chem girl action there.   Mario.  

[02:10:22] Unknown:

These are all horrible nicknames. Yeah.  

[02:10:25] Unknown:

Rose. Titanic.  

[02:10:30] Unknown:

That's bullshit.  

[02:10:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Matt or Jingle Bell?   I mean, you know,   you know,  

[02:10:38] Unknown:

maybe a sat over lightning. I think all these people should just go buy a Trezor   and use it with wallet.trezor.i0.   Just use their node. Just, like, fucking  

[02:10:50] Unknown:

Have fun staying poor.  

[02:10:53] Unknown:

My goal in life is to have fun staying poor. I hope you guys are all in the same time.  

[02:10:58] Unknown:

A 100%.  

[02:11:01] Unknown:

Block clock rules is not a nickname.   Anyway,   freaks,   I guess Rodolfo is gonna decide which one of your horrible nicknames The the Scrooge or Dale wins a 100%. Yeah. I mean, that was the best one. You you somehow figure out a way The one Dale geek,   reach out to me or fucking Rodolfo, and he's gonna send you a fucking free cold card.  

[02:11:25] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. A 100%. You're getting it. That's Jedi   Matt. Is good. Jedi Matt? You gotta stick with the 4th. Oh, Mitch is Matt. Mitch is Mackie. A little a little a a there. Mitch is Mike.   Mitch is Matt. Fuck me. Stay drunk. We got them giggles, though. He's right. He's right. Yeah. Yeah. This is part of a Christmas card, not a nickname.   Fetty, Matty.  

[02:11:47] Unknown:

Very good.   Okay.   Same name on Twitter, DM coming from 1 dog geek. He's on point. He's he's got it. He's got it. Yeah. I know. He he knows he got it.  

[02:11:59] Unknown:

It's not gonna get better than that. I doubt it.  

[02:12:02] Unknown:

Anyway, freaks. Yeah. We're done. Appreciate you guys. Of course. 10.  

[02:12:07] Unknown:

Thank you for joining.   A big thanks to NVK and Evan for joining us for the first episode.   We'll see you next week, Tuesday   at 23100   UTC,   which is 6 PM   EST   with 2 new guests.   Stay humble. Stack stats.  

[02:12:29] Unknown:

Peace and love, Briks.  

[02:12:30] Unknown:

Wait. We're not here next time?   Seen enough to say life is rough. You gotta work at it like a work ethic. I'm not gonna stash it. I'll pass, soda racket. I feel like a 3