Citadel Dispatch

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ODELL, NVK, Justin Moon, Pierre Rochard, Stephan Livera

Full Show Notes with Links

TIMESTAMPS:
Software Releases & Project Updates

• 00:03:33 Fully Noded v0.3.4/v0.3.5 - Sep 29, 2022
• 00:05:10 Specter Desktop v1.13.0 - Sep 22, 2022
• 00:07:04 Nunchuk 1.9.14 - Sep 27, 2022
• 00:13:29 Electrum 4.3.2 - Sep 26, 2022
• 00:20:02 Fountain 0.5.1 - Sep 30, 2022
• 00:24:38 Robosats v0.2.1-alpha - Sep 30, 2022
• 00:25:18 COLDCARD 5.0.7 - Oct 05, 2022
• 00:26:53 EmbassyOS v0.3.2 - Oct 05, 2022
• 00:36:12 Blockstream Green QT 1.1.4 - Oct 05, 2022
• 00:38:59 lnd v0.15.2-beta - Oct 10, 2022
• 00:49:19 Samurai v0.99.98f

Noteworthy

• 00:50:42 Jam: a modern interface for JoinMarket
• 00:53:33 BitcoinTreasuries.NET
• 00:55:50 Stratum V2 reference implementation (SRI) available for pilot testing.
• 01:01:23 Pleb creates a 2 of 3 multi-sig, air-gapped Vault with COLDCARD, Ledger & TAPSIGNER using Keeper
• 01:09:12 Peach - P2P Mobile application that connects Bitcoin Buyers & Sellers
• 01:12:27 Celsius Disclosed Names and Transaction History of All Users During Bankruptcy
• 01:25:13 Alby - The Bitcoin Lightning App for your Browser
• 01:31:07 Arrested Tornado Cash developer to stay in jail after appeal rejected
• 01:38:26 Grayscale unveils bitcoin mining-centered investment entity
• 01:38:42 European Union Announces New Sanctions Against Russia Including a "Ban" on All Russian Bitcoin Wallets
• 01:43:07 bitnob launches in Kenya
• 01:44:45 Swan Acquires Specter Solutions
• 01:47:49 Block's Decentralized Exchange Protocol Team 'TBD' Partners with Circle
• 01:48:20 BitGo Unveils Custodial Lightning
• 01:48:52 River Lightning Services
• 01:52:06 Bitcoin mining hosting company Compute North files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

Bitcoin Optech Newsletter

• 01:53:56 Bitcoin implementation designed for testing soft forks on signet (#219)

Competitions

• 01:55:14 [Bitcoin Design Community Designathon]
• 01:56:59 [Legends of Lightning]

Events

• 01:58:31 Adopting Bitcoin
• 01:58:39 Africa Bitcoin Conference
• 01:58:49 Unconfiscatable
• 01:59:15 Plan B Lungano
• 01:59:22 Pacific Bitcoin
• 01:59:27 Bitcoin for India

support dispatch: https://citadeldispatch.com/contribute
stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/
join the chat: https://matrix.to/#/#citadel:bitcoin.kyoto
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoA72saVAuQ8hYCnBO0Lymw

[00:00:08] Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to the Bitcoin review podcast.   The podcast where we fail at boringly reading the latest release notes and discuss project updates.   We are back with the list,   and,   I have a I have a big crew here today.   We have, Pierre Richard. Hi, Pierre.   Hello. Thanks for having me on. We have Justin Moon. Hi, Justin.  

[00:00:35] Unknown:

Hello.  

[00:00:36] Unknown:

We have, Stefan Rivera, which is, he's a newcomer to the list.  

[00:00:41] Unknown:

Hey. Thanks for inviting me, Enrique.  

[00:00:43] Unknown:

And we have the over extended podcast,   master   who's a great guest of the show, Matt Adel.   Yo.   Nice to have you guys. Thanks thanks for coming.   And I was just saying, I I broke the website just before this,   so, I'm fixing it,   and,   I guess everybody got the show notes. I hope it's in this wonderful   Google docs today.   So yeah, we have   a very, very full list today, and   I just wanted to get a couple of coin kite house kippings here out of the way.   Black Friday is coming.   This is a message for,   product and service makers.   If you have a product or service that you want to advertise for Black Friday with some sale, just, ping the the folks in our team. It's a bitcoin   Friday   no. Bitcoinblackfriday.org.  

We're also looking for,   other topics   for the the panel version of this podcast like we did with the wallets.   And,   oh, and this one is just a quick note. The Bitcoin binary dotorg bot is not working well. So if you love creating shell scripts for GitHub actions,   do hit me,   because I do need help with that and I don't have time to deal with GitHub actions.   So, we are looking for some help there. Anyways,   so,   I figure we we just kinda go straight into the list   since   since we didn't start a good batter today.  

[00:02:21] Unknown:

For a little context, since Enrique just jumped right into   showing his   projects,   I believe me and Stefan are at have been at the Amsterdam conference for the last 2 days,   and I believe Justin is at TabConf right now. That's correct. Pierre, which conference are you at?  

[00:02:41] Unknown:

No conference.   Just doing a Bitcoin 101 with,   different folks.  

[00:02:47] Unknown:

Look at that. Confidential.   Productive people don't go to conferences.  

[00:02:51] Unknown:

Here's a Twitter con every day. That's right. You know, for the people who are,  

[00:02:57] Unknown:

were not here before I started pressing record,   there are no   cyber hornets.   Pierre is all the accounts on Twitter. He literally runs Twitter.  

[00:03:08] Unknown:

It's just it's all sock puppets. Yeah. There's there's no plebs. There's no cyber hornets.   Anyone who's synonymous, you just probably safe to assume it's my account.  

[00:03:17] Unknown:

All the nims are Pierre.  

[00:03:19] Unknown:

He's just sibling all of us. We never knew.  

[00:03:23] Unknown:

It's working. It is quite amazing.   Alright, guys.   Let's start with the software releases   and project updates.   Fully noted, version   0.3.4,   and I guess the other and also we missed in the in between the the shows 0.3.5.   Total balance view no longer refreshes   when navigating back.   Join market connect QR, that's nice.   Add a join market placeholders   to the SSL certs,   and enhancement   in older versions, multisig NFC imports not offered if a micro SD card was   really there, I think.   For 0.35,   much improved UX   around exporting,   and,   fixes,   fixes a bug where LND would only show fees collected from the last 100HL   t l   HTLC   events.  

Do you guys use, fully noted everyday for everything?  

[00:04:37] Unknown:

I'm an Android man, so, unfortunately, no. I have not had the chance.  

[00:04:42] Unknown:

I just checked. I have it installed on my phone, but, I have not been using it. I need to and now I'm poking around on it. It's changed a lot since when I installed it.   Big upgrades.  

[00:04:53] Unknown:

Great.  

[00:04:55] Unknown:

Are you still alive, Matt? Fontaine is awesome. The the lead maintainer, fully noted.   I met him in Miami this year. Yeah. Fontaine is great.  

[00:05:04] Unknown:

He was one of the first persons to, work with, NFC on,   Bitcoin NFC on the apps, with codecard.   Okay. So Spectre   desktop   version 1.13   feature so improve   dev console, menu extensions can extend to menus now,   adding open Bitcoin app verbiage to ledger, upload keys,   better balance display,   do not hide elements by default,   individual hard,   HWI progress for ledger devices.  

[00:05:40] Unknown:

That reminds me of how with Ledger, you have to actually click in, like, I mean, I guess most people who've if you've used a lot of the hardware wallets, it's a bit of a pain that you have to actually click into the, quote, unquote, Bitcoin app when you're using those ledger   devices. It can be a bit confusing for new users or if you're not familiar.   But I know Salvatore Ingala is trying to, you know, improve the Bitcoin situation there over at Ledger and make things like better multi sig support and things like this. There was some interesting commentary from him, today about registering the multi sig quorum and things like that. Oh, I saw his BIP. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He he definitely he wants to improve,  

[00:06:14] Unknown:

the the descriptors in,  

[00:06:17] Unknown:

imports and all that stuff. I mean, I I think it's impossible for them to really   like, you buy a ledger because you wanna hold 1 of the 1,000 shit coins they support. Oh, a 100%. Like, if you're not Yeah. If you don't just go Bitcoin only, you just can't you'll never solve that UX hurdle of of needing to, you know, click into the Bitcoin section.  

[00:06:37] Unknown:

Well,   yeah.   I mean, you can still use Ledger, I guess, like, with with, like, other clients. Right?   But, but if you're using Ledger,   it's essentially   it's like a a one button of Shaquen Casino.   It's it's like, it just downloads, like, click here, buy Bitcoin. You know? Like,   but, you know, like, that that's what the market wants. Right?   And, you know, it's okay.   Okay.   Nunchuk,   1.9.14.   They added, cold card NFC support,   which they have subsequently sort of improved a bit,   replaced by fee, ported to mobile, it was only on the desktop wallet.   BIP21   and CRUX QR support,   new quick send shortcut,   signing using air gap keys in colab wallets is now possible,   copy to clipboard for addresses   and txids,   and, preferences   of perf improvements.  



[00:07:41] Unknown:

Yeah. So just a quick comment here. I haven't used the latest latest version of Nunchuk, but I have played around with TapSigner and Nunchuk, and I found it just a really great experience.   I was even showing it to some of my friends in Bitcoin Dubai, just, you know, some of the the Maxi crew in Dubai, and I was showing them. They're they're pretty happy with the whole UX of NFC and TapCiner and Nunchuk. And, you know, I think it's really cool what they're doing. So, you know, it is a slightly different approach to what we've seen with the typical Electrum, Sparrow, Spectre style of multisig. So let's see, if that becomes more prominent.  

[00:08:13] Unknown:

What I think is really, really cool,   there used to be this wallet. I think I mentioned this before here, but it it was one of my favorite phone wallets was called Copay until,   until a BitPay bought them and destroyed them.   It was still a JavaScript wallet. It still had, like, a lot of sort of issues around, like, too many inputs. Pod copay? Yep. They, acqui hired them.  

[00:08:38] Unknown:

I actually thought it was a bit pay project.  

[00:08:40] Unknown:

No. No. No. I thought they brewed it in the beginning. No. It was, it was from before them. I actually saw someone   We were,   I was hanging out with a bunch of Bitcoiners, like, 4 months ago,   and,   we stumbled on a on a no corner   that wanted to download her first wallet.   And he told her to download co pay, and I was like, what the fuck?  

[00:09:03] Unknown:

I don't even think he exists anymore with that name. It still exists. Oh, really? I think it was Eric Marchandale who started that wallet and then got he got hired acquired by It was way ahead of its time. Pay yes.  

[00:09:15] Unknown:

Yeah. What was it? 2014? And they had, like, easy multisig in a in a smartphone? Like, that's crazy early. It was fantastic.  

[00:09:22] Unknown:

No hardware wallet support at the time, of course,   but but it was very good.   Anyway, so what I what I like is, Hugo, which is the main maintainer and the founder of,   Nunchuk,   is taking the approach of   collaborative multisig   between,   like, actual humans and parties, not, like, as a company kind of thing. It's so it's not like cousin and chain kind of thing. It's more like, hey, I wanna have a wallet between say Justin, me, and and Matt. Right?   So one is there is encrypted comms,   either using email or, my my request to him, which like, by the way, every single request I had for him for the last, like, year and a half now probably, that he incorporated within, like, 2 weeks. Like, it's amazing. I go on the DM. So, you know, like, I kinda need these features, like, boom, appears.   Those guys are absolute beasts.  

So so anyway, so   you can have a non email set up so you're not doxxing yourself. Mind you, you know, it's still, like, you know, they do use store,   by default, I think.   But but, you know, you're still trusting servers. You're still trusting, like, there's a level of trust with this. Just wanna put that caveat out there. But anyways, so you can actually start, you can create a new multisig wallet with   the parties   being remote.   So you can you can you can do the quorum   to consolidate the XPUBs and everything through the app,   which is phenomenal,   and then you have encrypted comms using the keys,   which was also my request,   so that you don't need to have a password and username or any of that crap,   and you can sort of like talk to each other, coordinate,   propose transactions.  

You know, a huge part of money is coordination. Right? So having that is is super cool. Yeah. I mean, it can't be overstated  

[00:11:16] Unknown:

how important   the built   in comm layer is. Because, like, I've done multisigs with very experienced Bitcoiners and just pasting PSPTs   and shit   in matrix or some encrypted chat. Docs.   It's also the worst UX ever. Yeah. Fucking annoyed. It's like, which part am I like, which one is partially signed by 1 key or 2 keys, and, like, you're it's a pain in the ass. So next, I I really want to, like, have somebody champion it. I definitely don't wanna do the work.  

[00:11:46] Unknown:

I wanna have somebody champion a new,   comms protocol   for wallets   so that   you can have an open sort of comm layer   that, you know,   don't know yet, it could be XMPP kind of thing, but, like, point is   we need some open protocol for wallets to talk to each other because then it's not just within Nunchuck. Right? It would be, say, between Nunchuck  

[00:12:09] Unknown:

and Sparrow or whatever. Let's, yeah, let's put Craig. So I was gonna say, let's just put Craig and Hugo on the phone together. Just give them a little 5 minute intro and then just hang the phone and let them figure it out. There you go. So so there is that. And and another cool thing too is,  

[00:12:26] Unknown:

Nunchuk   and us,   and some guys from the Shift crypto   did the BSMS.   So it's essentially like a a a   you know, it's it's nothing, like, too crazy or too clever, like, but it's just like a way of standardizing   backup files and setup files for multisig as well.   So we are getting there, and that's the backup file that you do with Nunchuck.   So with Nunchuck now you can do comms, you can do the collaboration,   you can set up the stuff,   and you can use the harder wallets with NFC,   with SD card,   and with USB   on the desktop version of it.   It's quite phenomenal. We just gifted them   a batch of Nunchuk branded tap signers, so that, you know, I want them to sort of like, you know, push   push that self custody, that kind of easy stuff,   and I think, I think they're gonna have services soon.  

Anyways, like, fantastic work by those guys. I I really it's nice to see people trying to actually do new things.   Alright.   Electrum,   4.3.2,   when creating new requests reuse addresses   of expired requests,   index requests by ID instead of receiving address,   trampoline routing,   fix, sweep to local,   output from channel backup,   harden script for   macOS   binary, avoid using pre compiled wheels from PyPy,   and   the Windows app image Android binaries are now built using Debian.   So   I feel like Electrum is going, like, in a terrible wrong direction of UX.   It it's like driving me nuts.  

You know, like, you you need extra clicks. There's extra buttons in the UI that don't really it's just it takes, like, 3, 4 windows to sign a transaction.   I don't think LN should exist there,   which is a shame because it's, like, it's the most sort of, like, OG,   you know, one of the most OG wallets. I mean, it was the first wallet really,   like, it was publicly made after Core,   so it's kinda like annoying to see it go in this UX direction.   Oh, and there is no more XFP information for wallets that exist, so you can't go and find the XFP   information to make sure that the wallet is anyways, it's just it's driving me absolutely nuts.  

So if anybody from my lectern is there, I I appreciate the hard work you guys put in, but, you know,   please,   you know,   make the UX simpler, don't get complicated.   Do you any of you guys still use Electrum?  

[00:15:06] Unknown:

I I did try out their their lightning implementation,   and, yeah, it's   it's it's a lot to do in in one piece of software to do,   on chain and lightning. But I also think that I actually do like the idea of it.   And then when I looked in the core in the code base,   because it's in Python, I thought, well, maybe it'd be interesting to use their   their Python   lightning code as a library,   and there's there's it's just not possible. It's all very hard coded in there.  

[00:15:40] Unknown:

Yeah.   This is this is the challenge that Electrum always had is that, you know, it started when Bitcoin was   much   different. Right? It was even pre BIP 32. So,   you know, like, it's just a a constantly sort of, like, added on kind of code base.   It's it's, quite challenging to,  

[00:16:01] Unknown:

to read it. Do do you think we're gonna see, like, the emergence of Taproot native wallets? Right? Because you build up so much cruft from having to support past things. And if you wanna do something new, like, I could just imagine there, you know, people just starting from scratch.  

[00:16:18] Unknown:

There is very few people out there that can build wallets.  

[00:16:21] Unknown:

There is very few people out there who are willing to build wallets, or we're gonna have fresh new blood. There's gonna be another bull market. There's gonna be lots of new developers coming in.  

[00:16:31] Unknown:

I don't know. Like, I I find, like, even while it's like Moon,   which are made, like, sort of, like, post a lot of things, it's still a Bitcoin sort of semi OG there. Right? Like,   there is very few people out there who have the capacity to really build a wallet.   It's it's surprisingly hard,   but that's what the beauty of BDK, for example. Right? So we can have people who have a much better view of UX,   a much better sort of, like,   you know, like, intent in how to handle the transactions and all that stuff. But, you know, the the true hard part   that is very sort of domain specific knowledge as well is done by BDK. So,   you know, maybe the BDK part 4   Taproot will be sort of   like very good and or good enough, and and then that would be used as the base to to go forward with it. But it's,   it's surprisingly hard,   and maintaining it is even harder.  

And and that's what happens to a lot of wallets. Like, you know, people go and they build it and then, like, sort of, like, keeping up with the changes and keeping up with everything is   it's not,   it's not a photo sharing app   building on Bitcoin.  

[00:17:46] Unknown:

Right. Because as an example, even if the guys wanted to go Taproot only, they've got all these legacy users who they just couldn't like, they can't just say no to them and just leave them in the lurch. And I guess that's, that's part of the problem. Right.   So we'll see if,  

[00:18:01] Unknown:

yeah. Well, Pierre, I think what Pierre was saying was it'd be like a new wallet comes out of the gate that's just like Taproot native.  

[00:18:08] Unknown:

I think it'll happen. I I just I'm just skeptical. This is what Taro is. You know? It's just like a Taproot native wallet that does all kinds of crazy stuff and, TapLead stuff. And what Jeremy Rubin is working on now with the Judica, he just announced in Judica VM. It's like an extension of SAPO, which is like a programming environment to make, like, graphs and transactions. Right? Like, this is stuff that uses a bunch of the commitments and the Merkle trees   to express fancy stuff that I don't really understand yet. And so these are, I think, these are two examples of Taproot natively.  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

Good point. LND is Taproot by default,   but that's Lightning only. Right? Well, I think  

[00:18:46] Unknown:

the the issue is not getting software   sort of like written is for that software to be   of quality   and of notability   and of enough reviews for people to put real money in it.   That that bar is a very bar a very high bar to be crossed.   You know, I have no doubt that the, you know, like, the Taro stuff is gonna be fantastic, but, like, I it's it's gonna take so long for people to trust it to put, like, real money in it as their Bitcoin wallet, not their Taro wallet. Yeah. Well, it's not really a Bitcoin wallet. That's the thing. There you go. Uses Bitcoin, but it's not a Bitcoin. You're not like, the asset you're storing is not Bitcoin, so it's it's kinda weird in that way.   So so this sort of tried to say it's like, you know, I I kinda feel like I'm sigh sounding like that old grumpy man. You know, like, but the reality is when it comes to real money,   the old grumpy man keep your money safe. Right? Like,   I actually hope that this just inspires   young people to be   old grumpy man in mentality when they're building and they go build wallets.  

We do need that work to be done. It just can't be done as a sort of, like,   you know, like, let's play thing kinda kinda deal.  

[00:19:58] Unknown:

So, basically, there's a high bar.  

[00:20:01] Unknown:

It's very high. Yeah. Alright.   Fountain,   0 point 5.1,   autoplay queue,   Apple CarPlay,   OPML   import,   performance upgrades.   So I just wanted to to bring this up. I got a little bit of hate on Fountain because I I I was shitting on podcast 2.0   or whatever they call it, the the value for value thing. A person literally   tipped me and said   that it feels weird to be tipping somebody who hates on that tip. I totally appreciate that.   I think people get it wrong. It's just that, like, I absolutely   love that.   I just fail to see   how that   sort of scales because, you know, there's a reason why advertising model works is because, you know, users hate paying for things, but it doesn't mean I don't like it or I don't love it or I don't hope it doesn't happen.  

So anyway, so to that,   to that listener who who did comment there, I did read it and and I do empathize with your comment. I just it's just complicated.   But it is fun to to be there, and as I said this before, I absolutely love when people, like, send me a tip and and sort of say something. It it means more than just a comment.  

[00:21:19] Unknown:

But do you really think we're we have the advertising model because users don't pay things, or is it because Absolutely. I'm with NVK here. We've never had this capability before. Like, we've never had the ability for an audience to directly fund  

[00:21:33] Unknown:

the content they listen to without a number. But, Matt, think think just the math of this. Right?   Let's say you have Joe Rogan's audience.   Okay, so 11,000,000   downloads   on a single episode or something like that. Right?   So   let's say   each person is giving 10 SATs.   Right?   So   that's still very little money. You   know, can somebody do the math quickly there on 10 sets times,   11,000,000   times,   the current Bitcoin price?  

[00:22:09] Unknown:

But that's not how it works out. What how it works out is   is   very few people get money, but the ones that do give large amounts of money. But they don't? I think it's yet to be seen.   I hope it happens. The ad model is convenient, especially within the   confines, like the constraints of the legacy system.   The ad model is very profitable and very convenient.   I I think people might be able to make more money, you know, going with a value for value model. It just hasn't been proven out yet. Sam Harris is pretty successful, and he's within the constraints of the traditional system. So I just ran the numbers, by the way. It's about so as an example,  

[00:22:49] Unknown:

correct me if I got it wrong, but it looks like it's about a 110,000,000   sats, which at today's prices is about 21,288   USD,  

[00:22:57] Unknown:

which is far less than what Joe Rogan would be charging for on ads. And you can only have, like, 10 pods that big. Right? Like, actually, there's just one as the market has proven.   I feel like we can find   like a much more interesting sort of middle ground there somewhere,   right, where you have,   say, resyndication   for a buck. Right? So people create curated lists and they get paid for having those curated lists and they share that   that with with the makers of the pods or, you know, the the advertising   sort of placement could be much better and better sort of rerouted and better   syndicated with lightning. Right? So that you have, like, better distribution of capital.  

There's, like, a lot of, like, other more complicated cool stuff that essentially, like, all the ad advertising markets on social media. Right? Could all be redone   much better because there's no friction or cost on those transactions.   It's just I feel like the the value for value is very similar to open source. Everybody uses the stuff but ends up never paying for it.   So, like,   I don't know. It's just challenging. I I think there will be a niche. I think some people will make money. Like, say,   what's the name?   The part 2.0?  

Adam Curry. Adam Curry. So Adam Curry does make a, you know, a proper living out of this stuff,   but I think it's it's not gonna be, like,   as wide   as as people hope.   But let's hope so. Let's hope it works.   Please keep the tips coming. I do enjoy those sats. Okay?   All right, so, Robosats,   0.2.1,   Dispatch includes the new book table component.   This is the first alpha release with Android APK.   Do you guys,   use, Robosats?   Matt does.  

[00:25:00] Unknown:

Robosats is fucking awesome. I actually met,   I met someone here in Amsterdam who just translated all their documentation to Chinese. Amazing. And he's looking for another Chinese speaking individual to proofread it. So if you're out there, hit me up. There you go.  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

Alright. I feel like we've kinda glanced over this in the last episode. Code card 5.0.7.   I won't go through all the things,   but that is the official release. Matt's last because you put your own update in 2 episodes in a row. Of course. Somebody has to pay for all this,   all this production.   So it's actually more stuff added.   NFC enhancements, multi sig NFC import,   NFC messaging, message signing,   show address over NFC,   and   NFC   message signing was important because Nunchuk needed to do   health checks,   so so that was recent, but it's gonna be on Nunchuck next release.   The HSM enhancements,   dynamic HSM,   white listening, HSM policy   hash display during first activation,   ignores HSM commands over USB by default now.  

We're gonna probably remove the whole HSM stack,   from main release   unless people want it then they would just sort of activate it or have separate firmware, I don't know yet. Enhancements menu wrapping,   this was a big one for me. Allow import of descriptors,   A descriptor type specifies both internal external in a single string.   Our ability to specify address format in the text file   to be signed.   If you guys have any questions, I'm happy to answer,   otherwise I'll probably move to the next.   Okay.   So Embassy   OS version 0.3.2,   auto scrolling for logs,   improved connect connectivity between browser and embassy,   switch to postgres,   for EOS database,   multiple bug fixes,   virus   UI UX enhancements, removal of   product keys.  

Anybody using Embassy OS right now? It's start 9. Right?   There was way  

[00:27:26] Unknown:

more, there was way more in the change log than you than the release notes than you read.  

[00:27:32] Unknown:

Wow. These are the highlights that they put on. That's the deal. I was, like, getting excited. I thought you're gonna read the whole fucking thing. No. We by the way, we do the same to our products too. Cold card, we only put the the the summary. We we do not go through the whole list. It's too much. It was a massive update. Supposedly,   they did a lot of work, behind the scenes on that one. Yeah. So so what I have here is essentially the summary, which is the 6 items, and then there is, like,   which they wrote,   the highlights, and then there is a what's changed, which is, like, a 1000000 issues. So, like, in practical terms, what I heard from them, because I saw,  

[00:28:11] Unknown:

I saw their lead dev, 2 weeks ago,   is that it it is a massive performance improvement and reliability improvement for, nodes that are running on Raspberry Pis.   But what's also really interesting about star 9 star 9 is one of these node projects. Right? So, like, you can run a bunch of self hosted things on them Is they're about to release a in partnership with Purism, which is, like, a well known   privacy security hardware manufacturer,   like a top a top tier   notice, like, $1900.   It runs an Intel chip.   So that's interesting. It's the first it's the first, you know, Bitcoin focused one   to kinda go into that premier   that premier step.  



[00:28:54] Unknown:

Nice to see. Because I know you hate pies, so that's why I Yeah. No. Fuck raspberry pies. I mean, it it all like nothing that has pie in the name, which is high carb, high fiat,   should be used for Bitcoin.  

[00:29:08] Unknown:

Yeah. So I did a recent episode with Matt Hill. So we spoke a little bit about some of this stuff. Actually, it came up in response to my other episode with Catan, where we were kind of aware Catan was also sharing your sentiment about raspberry pies. So, yeah, we spoke they spoke a bit about that.   It sounds like the idea is obviously not just Bitcoin, but the idea is to sort of how much could you replace by fussing someone's stuff. Right? Whether that's a business or a community, could you replace things with the likes of next cloud or matter most instead of slack or these kinds of things, and then sort of make that case that the business can save money by going fast and using the embassy device instead. So there's a bit of a play there. It's interesting to see what way they go. Also, they took away since the product key. So,   I can't remember the detail of that, but I I recall also, Odell, you had a Citadel dispatch where there was a big debate about, okay, how much fuss should the node projects be? And, you know, on one side, you've got RASP by blitz and Ronan Dojo who are like full force. Then you've got the people who are somewhere in the middle, like, start 9 and my node. And then over on the other end, you've got, like, the umbrells of the world. Right?  



[00:30:14] Unknown:

Their source viewable,   start 9.   You can build it yourself.   You can verify it, but you can't monetize it. So similar similar,   license to NVK,  

[00:30:26] Unknown:

not the exact license. I've been talking to a lot of founders,   and, I think the problem is there's a huge chunk of devs out there that are terrified   of the FOSS people,   and also there's a lot of false people   who are just absolutely,   like, disheartened with that lack of cold review and sort of like   the the status of FOSS, and I think a lot of this can be attributed to   so like   the the existing,   FOSS   sentiment   and and sort of attitude, especially by the people who don't write code.   Actually, the majority of the false zealotry comes from people that don't write code.   You know, this is not a new debate. This is not a, this is not gonna end debate.  

Maybe that's what the next episode panel should be. I should get a lawyer, a few people from from different walks of life that are, like, in the false spectrum  

[00:31:24] Unknown:

that are interested in talking about this a bit more honestly. Or you should just get a bunch of maintainers of MIT licensed projects and tell them that they don't code.  

[00:31:33] Unknown:

But that's not what I said.   Yeah. Anyways, I I feel like there's a lot of people out there   that are scared shitless of talking about the stuff publicly, which is the biggest challenge. Right? That's definitely true.   And, it it's just nice to see some projects with with some balls that that do what they wanna do.  

[00:31:52] Unknown:

I pulled up the I pulled up that Embassy Pro that we were talking about. I guess, a fucking powerhouse. 32 gigs of RAM. It's got a brand new I 7 in it.   2 terabytes   SSD.  

[00:32:06] Unknown:

Like, they're going for the like, a proper self hosted machine. Nice. And you can build it yourself with desktop. But And because it cannot be re commercialized, it's not gonna be Amazon and Google who are gonna make the money over their effort.   You know, that's ultimately who makes the money from all the fuss. It's Google, Amazon, Microsoft.   Anyways,   so yeah, I met Matt,   a solid dude, really wants to make this happen, like he he is, he's a person who who who really wants   to to change the way this, these kinds of product category are done, which is   also nice to see.  



[00:32:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Jokes aside, I mean, you should definitely have Matt on. I feel like you 2 would vibe really. It'd be really I've met him, and we we chatted. I I didn't chat as much as I'd like to. No. But I mean recorded.  

[00:32:57] Unknown:

Oh, you mean recorded. Oh, I see. Yes.   I I feel like if I'm if I'm recording this, one, I should be a 100% sober, and 2,   I should,   I should have,   probably somebody in the middle there just to   to moderate and tame  

[00:33:14] Unknown:

some views and commentary. You can have guest Matt or Do.  

[00:33:18] Unknown:

Right. I don't know. Matt Matt can be a a zealot.  

[00:33:22] Unknown:

I was very fair on the round table.   The node 1 we were talking about, and Matt was on that too. Yeah. That's true.  

[00:33:29] Unknown:

And you know what's funny? Right? What was his name?   Future Paul.   Future Paul. Real zealot. Yeah. I know. But what's funny because he was making fun that, that I took the like, some of the text   from, from Bitcoin   Bitcoin   bounties.  

[00:33:47] Unknown:

But but at the Yeah. You didn't you didn't   you didn't give Yeah.  

[00:33:53] Unknown:

No. I did attribute. But, anyways, he he did but what was funny is he actually took my code from something else, and he didn't even know.   And then, anyways, we were laughing about that.   But, yeah, I mean, it's not easy, and it's it's gonna be a very, very tricky dynamic forever on that. To me, the most important thing to Bitcoiners is that the security needs to be done in public.   Everything needs to be verifiable.   How people choose   to monetize, don't monetize, give, don't give, that's their problem.   That is my view.  

[00:34:29] Unknown:

Let me make one comment about start 9. It's it's, like, of of all the node implementations, I think they've gone,   you know, they they built, like, a actual operating system kind of in Rust,   that does a good job of modeling   the state of the machine. So if you're if you're gonna write a new package, like, we're gonna write a Fedimint package at some point So you can spin up this, federated private bank and be, you know, from your Raspberry Pi. And so one of the cool things is it can, like, kick off of the it Moon shitcoin.   No comment on that. So,   you you can fire up flows and it'll kinda kinda understand what is the state of your Bitcoin node. What is the state of your Lightning node? Like, what what configuration needs to happen? So I think this start 9 has, like, a really solid foundation for building, like, future protocols on top of Bitcoin and Lightning where, versus some of the other ones. They're also really you know, they they branch out outside of Bitcoin as well. They have, like, photo viewers, chat servers. Like, they   they're   they're trying to do a lot more than the other ones, I think.  

And which is a downside too, you know. Like, do I do you want your photos? You want a bunch of photos,   you know, swimming around your lightning channel private key file? You know? That's kinda that's kinda scary.  

[00:35:41] Unknown:

Yeah. No. It it's,   yeah. We were talking to them about,   we're gonna if we do do that code node thing we wanna do,   we would have to create a package that creates, essentially a delta of, Bitcoin course DB   so that you can you can then air gap move that around.   So we would need some of these node projects to sort of be the the high availability   latest copy of the chain available,   so looking forward to that.   Alright.   Block stream green,   QT 1.1.4,   support for incremental,   Jade firmware update,   enable request,   2 factor reset for liquid.   After nunchuck, I don't really use   green too much. It is a it is a, like, a nice UX wallet.  

They did start supporting sort of like standard   sig things, so it's kinda nice.   Do any of you guys use,   green right now?   Nope. I think it it's, like, it's a great way for you to to have a liquid support, right, which is, like, not very broad install base.  

[00:36:54] Unknown:

So it's, it's nice to see. I feel like the only wallet that has less users,  

[00:36:58] Unknown:

than co pay is green wallet. I I think it's sort of like it's kind of   you used to have a lot of users back before Blockstream bought them. Used to be called, pre address. Address. Yes. And it was actually   based on the idea of you having a pre vetted UTXO.  

[00:37:16] Unknown:

No. It wasn't a pre vetted UTXO. It was more novel than that. It was a multisig   where they controlled one key. Right. And then they had a deal with the merchant where the merchant would trust that they wouldn't charge them back. So if you paid from green green address, the merchant could do a zero confirmation transaction because they trust the green address wasn't gonna double spend. And it's Lawrence,  

[00:37:36] Unknown:

who the maintainer   is and was. A cool idea. Yeah. No. No. Well,   the problem is when he came out to green address, there was also   some talks on the mailing list about green addresses being like state sanctioned addresses,   so in murky the water a little bit of the concept and the name, that sort of sent back the project a lot. Yeah. I mean, it even muddied it in your brain. You were like Yes. Prove that Clearly. Exact yeah.   Clearly.   Right.  

[00:38:04] Unknown:

Next here. Sorry. I was trying to buy some domains. But even if you're using liquid, wouldn't you use, like, a lot of they have another wallet now. They have, like, Aqua.   Yeah. Aqua is green.   It almost goes back to Pierre's,   earlier comment where I it just almost feels like there's so much debt on  

[00:38:22] Unknown:

like, tech debt on on green wallet. Yeah. But I think Aqua is kind of gonna be It's green.   Yeah. But Aqua is actually gonna, you know, how Samsung now left Blockstream to go to start Jan 3, and I think Aqua is eventually gonna be relaunched as part of Jan 3. So Oh. There I think there will be some separation there eventually.  

[00:38:41] Unknown:

And Aqua's Jan 3.  

[00:38:43] Unknown:

So,   Justin, where should I redirect,   moonshippcoin.cash?  

[00:38:50] Unknown:

Just send it to his Twitter profile.  

[00:38:52] Unknown:

Good one. Okay.   That was a freebie.   He's gonna make you buy back from Moon at the top. That's right.   Lnd,   0.15.2   dash beta.   Wow. That was that everybody talked about this a bit already. It's the big Taproot Multisig transaction.   998   out of 999,   Multisig,   to prove a point which broke   BTCD,   which is what LND was running behind the scenes, which I'm actually surprised.   I I thought LND   was LNDD.  

[00:39:28] Unknown:

It's no. You're,   they use they use Well, so they use the library in common. Right.   But you can use,   even if you were using the Bitcoin d back end,   you still had this bug because l and d was using   a library that is a BTCD   library.  

[00:39:48] Unknown:

I mean, it's pretty it's a fair   bug.  

[00:39:51] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think this is this is good. It's totally fair bug. I mean good. It all Shows people are using things.  

[00:39:57] Unknown:

No. No. Seriously, like, Bitcoin is growing. Right? So there's gonna be a lot of   more complexity and a lot more features,   but because Bitcoin is actually good,   it doesn't let you interact with the network in a way that you're not supposed to interact with the network, in the positive or in the negative. Right? So   if you're not supporting a transaction that is supported, you're gonna fork off.   Right? That that would have been the example of of essentially Segwit.   If you didn't support Segwit and your node started seeing Segwit transactions, you would have forked off.  

[00:40:31] Unknown:

No. Isn't it   well, first of all, I fucking love Barack. He is a smart kid. I'm glad we have him,   and just seems like a good dude. Isn't it like it's because they were, like, half doing it. They were, like, looking at   like, they they had Taproot support because it's a soft fork. Right? So if if your node is pre Segwit,   you wouldn't be seeing Segwit transactions at all. You just wouldn't even know they existed.   This case, they were updated, so they saw the Taproot transaction. They just library  

[00:41:01] Unknown:

But they didn't have the full implementation.  

[00:41:03] Unknown:

Yep. Okay. My understanding of it was that you you could have done this without Taproot. The it's just it has to do with the amount of data.   I I did not look into it. I'd have to look at the details, but I think because they   if I recall correctly, there's somebody who reproduced it without taproot.  

[00:41:20] Unknown:

Interesting. Let's see how many bytes here. No. It's pretty small.  

[00:41:24] Unknown:

But, like, it it it's not syncing with the chain. Right? Because I wasn't staying with chain tip after.  

[00:41:30] Unknown:

As far as I know, BTC D forked off   in general, in general  

[00:41:35] Unknown:

completely far. So just from Lulu's comments, he was saying the issue was in BTC D's wire passing library that deserializes   Roblox.   So I think there was some particular check that he had put in or that they, the T BTCD team had put into that. It was that   it would validate, it would accept the block,   but it was to do with how it passes the block as it comes over the wire. I think that was the issue. So then they had to update that and get that in line, and that was where they did this hot fix, to go 15.2.  

[00:42:04] Unknown:

Because if you were running Yes. If you were running a, like, a pre tap root   Bitcoin   BTCD,  

[00:42:12] Unknown:

you didn't fork off. That's right. But but don't forget LND from point 15 onwards was l was taproot by default.  

[00:42:19] Unknown:

Right.   So, yeah, I I think that to sync the state of a lightning node, you have to process blocks which you get from your,   from your you get from your Bitcoin node. And so,   this transaction, like,   there's a raw transaction, and it's it's quite huge. So I think the basically, like, the stack size in the witness,   was, like, 111,100   or 11,000 bytes.   There's it's hard coded. Anything above 11,000 bytes,   BTCD would just error on. And this transaction was, like, a little above that. Right? So it just it just couldn't it just rejected it. And so,   so then Why are they running   a random size? Because Bitcoin core like, Bitcoin network can take a bigger transaction than that. Yeah. So there there is there is, like, a a a a top size here because you don't wanna be you don't want to accept, like, an arbitrarily large transaction because you have to load it in the memory. If it's too big, it could crash it. You don't wanna have to attempt to validate it. Oh, okay. So it was their choice. So you need you need some of these limits, but so the limit was too low. And so it just, it couldn't parse this. And so, therefore, it rejected the block. And therefore,   your lightning node might have you know, Bitcoin d lightning node might have caught up via the chain tip, but lightning d was not. And one really bad thing here is that you can actually tell if a lightning node an LND node is not at chain tip. And so it's very easy to scan the network and see which nodes you can steal money from. So if you haven't updated, you probably already lost your money. I think, like, it's it'll be close depending on how long your time outs are in lightning.  

So that's kinda one of the scary things is you really had the updates quick, and if you haven't, you should update. And then What's the default what's the default time lock? I think 2 weeks.   Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then you're just probably still still time. So then you still have time. Right? Yeah. So just upgrade the LND note if you haven't. That's, like, the takeaway if you're listening.   One kinda concerning thing is that, you know, they're using a library, BGTD, that doesn't have a maintainer. It doesn't have, like, a full time developer. So it's one of those things where, you know, maybe this would have been thought if they had, more people. Like, for example, they they tested they they did test,   this parsing logic. But they only did it with transactions. They didn't do it from a block. So   the actually, the code path that was getting exercised didn't get tested even though,   they thought they had.  

Another cool one is, there's a tool released by Tony Georgio.   It's called LN Sploit, which is, like, a really I don't I don't think it's in the notes. It's, like, a cool thing to, like, execute exploits on the lightning network.   This is, you know, and so he he actually gave a demo yesterday of, you know, showing how to do steal this money between 2 reg test nodes.   So it's it's kind of interesting. Lightning hasn't existed in an adversarial environment, and,   and so this is, like see seeing tools like this arise, you know, it's,   if there is an exploit, it'll become easier to to do it, which, you know, encourages people to be a little more conservative.  



[00:45:04] Unknown:

And also, like, there's just an incentive problem too, right, because it's a lot less value. So   sort of like low hanging fruit problems that can only, you know, access nodes that don't have a lot of money may not be as exploited,   as, you know, a Bitcoin   sort of client that may be holding 1,000,000. Well, this situation  

[00:45:24] Unknown:

reminded me of, of an idea I'd had of having a node out there that is trying to bait people into,   trying to exploit it. So,   you know, pretending to be offline,   while still watching,   and this would have just been a great opportunity,   to have a plausible,   you know, oh, hey. Come come, you know,   broadcast an old state and then snap you,   you,   punish them, you know, come back online immediately.   And so, like, I think that once you've got people doing that, then now the the game theory is like, alright. I don't know if this person's actually offline or not. And,   that's that's, I think, the important equilibrium to be at,   so that,   lightning is is robust in an adversarial environment.  



[00:46:14] Unknown:

Yeah. It also gets into the conversation about watchtowers. Right? It's the same kind of idea that if even if your note is offline or hypothetically, if your note was not updated, but the watchtower was, maybe,  

[00:46:24] Unknown:

you know, there's something there. This is like the debate about, is is should you have concealed carry or open carry of a handgun? And   Yeah. I I like the concealed carry argument of, well, don't you want it to be the case that nobody knows if   if somebody else is armed or not. Right?   And so I would want watchtowers to be, like, concealed as well. Like, you don't know if this person's using a watchtower or not. Mess around. Find out.  

[00:46:49] Unknown:

You you know, I I think what Pierre is advocating for is a polite society sorry. An armed polite an armed society is a polite society,   a a view for the security of Bitcoin and Lightning. Since you guys mentioned watchtowers,  

[00:47:01] Unknown:

I'm I'm pretty am I correct that the main l and d watchtower that people use was also affected by this? Yes. Yes. Correct. I know, what's his name? Sergi Delgado. He has this,   I have Satoshi.  

[00:47:15] Unknown:

I have Satoshi.  

[00:47:16] Unknown:

But I'm not sure if that would have caught this in this. That only works with core lightning. It doesn't work with L and D is my understanding. Correct. Yes. So, like, l and d has a prepackaged watchtower that everyone's been using,   and that also,  

[00:47:30] Unknown:

would have been vulnerable. Yeah. But Yeah. You know, that's also a conversation then about how where watchtowers go. Should there be some kind of cross compatibility? I don't know.  

[00:47:38] Unknown:

Yeah. This is why I normally avoid lightning subjects in the show because, you know, like, we're more like a based layer kind of of thing, and and it's just too complicated.  

[00:47:49] Unknown:

Alright. Even at the base layer, though, like, the this I think this is a great argument for running multiple implementations side by side. Mhmm. And so that way, you you you have some awareness of what's going on because   hypothetically,   you could have a bug in Bitcoin Core that's not in BTC. Right? That's there's no rule against that.  

[00:48:10] Unknown:

And, that's something you would wanna catch as well. So Bitcoin knots. Bitcoin knots is the one to run, but I'm not joking. It's  

[00:48:18] Unknown:

Bitcoin Knots, old versions of Bitcoin Core. Run all the versions. And b core and etcetera. But yeah.  

[00:48:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Because l and d was the only one that went down. Core lightning was still up. LDK was still up. Electroman Core lightning is in c. That's why it was running.   And even then you could still, I could just to be clear, the failure mode here was not like you could still route payments. It was just that your node wouldn't tell wouldn't be able to tell if the open or closed like channel got closed. So tell if you're getting attacked. Yeah. I just wanted to say before we move on that one of my favorite parts of this whole thing is that Barack tweeted it out super excited. He's like, I just did this massive multi transaction for only $4, and then he just broke all the l and d notes.  

[00:49:01] Unknown:

It's always how it is. Right? Like, this is exactly how softer breaks.  

[00:49:06] Unknown:

Better that way than a malicious person. Right? That's right.  

[00:49:09] Unknown:

Can you imagine if he was a shit quiner that found   this bug? It would have been major drama, but because he was like a friendly, you know, it's like, who cares? Nobody reports on it.   So so the next update is for Matt, and it's mostly because I found out that, like,   their last, fucking VK   commit   really was just drama, and they really just removed, open dime because the library was broken and didn't wanna fix it. So I figured I'd bring back, the ninja wallet here.   Samurai   version   0.99.98f,   making a debut   on bitcoin.review.   They have a new Paynium bot, and to   authenticate with, using Paynium,   brand new UI for both   initiating   collaborative, collaborating   stonewall,   new join bot,   anti spam fee,   and new tool screen for other things that will definitely not include my products because I'm persona non grata.  

So   Matt,   please,   take the floor.  

[00:50:17] Unknown:

It's a major update.   It's good to see it covered.  

[00:50:20] Unknown:

There you go.   Remember, folks, make sure you use it if you're on Dojo   always. That that is my view.  

[00:50:28] Unknown:

Yeah. You should always use your wallet with your own node. That's right. Otherwise, you're trusting someone else's node.  

[00:50:33] Unknown:

Exactly.   Alright.   Is there any other software updates,   like version updates that I may have missed before we move on to the next section of the show?  

[00:50:43] Unknown:

Was that Jam Wallet a new thing with, a Jam UI for join market? That was a new thing since the  

[00:50:49] Unknown:

last. Good point. You might have missed that. Yeah. I saw a few people sharing that. It looks really slick. But it's it's not a new release. It's a a beautiful website, I believe. Oh, okay. Oh, it seems like a new UI for   Regardless, it's awesome.  

[00:51:03] Unknown:

So do do you guys wanna talk about that gem thing? What's the URL?  

[00:51:07] Unknown:

Oh, I don't remember.  

[00:51:09] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

So Jam app, maybe? I think they're on RAS by Blitz and,   and Umbrel now.  

[00:51:18] Unknown:

Umbrel has it. Yeah. Jam, j m.  

[00:51:21] Unknown:

But they made a really clean new website. Nope. What? Do not go to jmgams.com.   It's a it's a join market   web UI.  

[00:51:31] Unknown:

Oh, there it is.   Jam   app.org.  

[00:51:37] Unknown:

But it's a really pretty easy to use you web UI if you're if you're running your own node. Very pretty. Particularly helpful to people that are running one of these popular node projects because it's just like point to click.  

[00:51:49] Unknown:

Joint market is my favorite privacy project.   It is the least dramatic,   and the most productive.  

[00:51:59] Unknown:

So and the least central it's fully decentralized. That that's the part that really is to me the Oh, they have a quote up from you on the website. It's really Are you just playing dumb this whole time?  

[00:52:10] Unknown:

Where is it? Yeah. It's on the it's on their front page if you scroll down. You're the influencer  

[00:52:15] Unknown:

showing them.  

[00:52:16] Unknown:

I don't see it. Basically, you're making the point that a lot of the other ones could get shut down and that joint market is, you know, decentralized.  

[00:52:23] Unknown:

That's great.  

[00:52:24] Unknown:

Hey. Look at that. And last time I tested it, it was clear net only. So just keep that in mind.   It it they say themselves it's still beta, but they're moving very quickly, which is great to see. That's fantastic.  

[00:52:37] Unknown:

You know, we need more options   with more   decentralizationness   to these things,   you know, we will win on, like, big time.  

[00:52:48] Unknown:

I actually spoke to them because we have a bounty out for   that for for basically what Jam is. Nice. Web UI for join market.   And it sounds like they're trying to get consensus because there's   maybe, like, 8 to 10 contributors,  

[00:53:04] Unknown:

but they they might just donate it to a different open source project. Hey, Spyro. I know you guys like to, love to support and, like, make it rain on a open source project. So, look. There is one right here that could use   some fiat bugs. No. But they literally said they don't want the bounty. Oh. I'm saying the opposite. Oh, the opposite. Oh, wow.  

[00:53:25] Unknown:

Okay. Well, it's great to see. If they're makers on join market, they could end up making money off of more people using it. There you go.  

[00:53:33] Unknown:

Alright. Next one on user noteworthy   is,   one of my projects, but I do have somebody else working on it, which is kinda cool,   bitcointreasuries.net.   There's a whole new website, completely   sort of properly made,   is no longer a Google spreadsheet being hosted with a hack,   and you're gonna be able to create your own account,   in the next probably couple weeks and sort of contribute data. There's   API's gonna be in and out. I've talked to the folks from Glassnode, there's some brilliant kids there.   We're   gonna sort of find a way of also listing,   wrapped Bitcoin in Derpify.  

It's very important because,   the Derpify   people do have a lot of Bitcoin,   and they are   money or not a influencer   in the greater bitcoin economy.   So I wanna capture that and understand that risk. There is charts   and all kinds of cool stuff.   The guys from,   what was her name?   Mackenzie.   Mackenzie, that that one of the only good, Bitcoin journalists   just used this site as a a reference in one of her latest articles.   Anyways, it's, it's a lot of fun, man, to, to have this data there   because, it's kinda like watching   the size of the pile that people are making on Bitcoin, and   business people are very competitive, and they need a leaderboard to understand how much more Bitcoin they need to buy.  

So if I can provide that as a service, so be it.   So, yeah, pretty pretty excited about that. The the new site does look fucking awesome.  

[00:55:12] Unknown:

I just wanna point out before we move on that NVK   sold bitcointreasuries.org   to the same guys that bought Bitbo,   and then he just launched bitcointreasuries.net   and made improvements.  

[00:55:24] Unknown:

To be fair, though, I did wanna sell the whole package.   The data,   the domains, the Twitter account, and everything. They said they didn't want it. I said, listen, you know, if you if you don't wanna buy the whole thing, then I'm gonna run it because I'm still passionate about this project.   They're okay with it, so,   so that's what it is. It's dot net now even though I don't like the dot net framework.   So, yeah, so so we have that going there. It's a lot of fun.   Stratumv2   reference implementation.   This is really cool.   Stratum V2   is a big, big deal for minors.  

It was a long time coming.   It's not simple,   and, you know, it's just one of those things that, like,   people people got it done.   Any any of you guys have some commentary on it?   Okay. None of us are gonna have fun staying poor the next few weeks as miners.   Well actually no, Pierre works for Riot now.   This is gonna be, it's gonna be wonderful   to have the new Hash rate the Bitcoin prices,   but I am certain Riot is gonna make it. Or maybe the new Hash is Riot.  

[00:56:36] Unknown:

Well Well, I did say Riot was number 6 on the leaderboard, so I think they'll they'll make it.  

[00:56:41] Unknown:

I have a long running theory   that, what happens every single bear market cycle that the hash rate goes up   is essentially the miners that are in a good   cash position.   They will hold off turning on hash rates just before the price truly dumps,   And then like, just and everybody looks like they're gonna like completely get destroyed because of the price and their leverage on the mining equipment, then they're gonna turn on the mining gear to really, like, destroy completely the mining competition,  

[00:57:15] Unknown:

and, and then they'll just buy them all out. Is that the equivalent of, like, 1 kid bullying the other by dunking his head under the water?  

[00:57:21] Unknown:

Yeah. Kind of. But to be fair, like, that kid is dunking their own heads into the water.  

[00:57:28] Unknown:

I think that's a little bit too conspiratorial.   I mean, I think that,   speaking as as an insider, at the end of the day, it takes time to deploy.   And there's   in order for the profit margin compression to happen, yeah, it takes, like, 18 to 24 months. Right? And so that's why, you know, from the top of the bull market to the bottom,   it's it's a brutal ride down,   but, hash rate number go up.   And, and then the cycle will start all over again.   You know? People will   abandon,   you know, the the marginal miners will will turn off. Right? They'll go away.   And then, the Bitcoin bull market will come back, and then everyone will be scrambling to build more infrastructure   and then, actually come online during the next bear market.  



[00:58:18] Unknown:

So what what Pierce actually described is, like, is that scene where the bully is grabbing the kid's hand and punching them in the face with their own hand and saying, you're doing this to your own self?   I'm just kidding. No. It is actually, like, it's new to me.  

[00:58:33] Unknown:

I'm not super, like, into the mining industry. But you are you are into the manufacturing industry. You know it takes time to   to manufacture  

[00:58:42] Unknown:

a a new device. Right? And so No. It's just fascinating to me how long though, like, the 16 to 18 months for, like you know, because the mining industry is it's fairly, like,   mature.   Right?   Well, I mean, mature between quotes, like, mature for Bitcoin. Right?  

[00:58:58] Unknown:

I mean, look look,   we just had a 1,000   multisig cause, you know, a big bug and, like like,  

[00:59:05] Unknown:

we're we're all trying to figure this out. So early. Time. We were so early. We are so so early. Early. Yeah. And I think one other point to add is that really, like, from the miner's point of view, it's not I don't think it's that likely that they would have capacity that they could turn on that they don't. Yeah. That would never happen. Right. Like, why wouldn't they? Like, if they're profitable, they should turn it on. Right? Yeah. So I think that kinda maybe goes against the conspiratorial   argument in in some way because it's kind of like, look, they just genuinely have some delay with getting the machinery or getting the rack space or getting the power, you know, that kind of thing. The power seems to be the power infrastructure  

[00:59:39] Unknown:

do seems to be, like, the biggest bottleneck now, not the ASICs or the the gear. It seems some of the miners that I have sort of conversations with seems to be their problem. I don't know if that's widespread in the industry,   but, like, you know, you can't get   transformers.   Yeah. You can't get, like, the actual last mile   of that that because, like, people don't understand the size   of the energy delivery that you have last mile for minors. Like, it's pretty crazy. And, like, Riot acquired  

[01:00:10] Unknown:

a company called ESS Metron that makes electrical equipment. There you go. It's like, you've you gotta do whatever it takes. You guys must be loving the price of copper right   now. There's there's definitely I mean, you know,   I guess, just refer to our public financial statements.  

[01:00:27] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I have a I have a a a friend,   a hunting friend,   who does the electrical design for Amazon warehouses.   Very smart kid. And,   you know, he's always telling me, like, dude, you have no idea the insanity right now. It's like, I can't get this. I can't get that.   And and this is like fucking Amazon.   Right? Like, I mean, you know, they go, like, jump and the companies go how high.   So I can't even imagine how how difficult it is for for for companies that don't have that kind of reach because a lot of the stuff you guys are buying is commodity. Right? So you guys are literally competing with Amazon warehouses.   So   it's, it must be very interesting.  

Hatter is fun.  

[01:01:11] Unknown:

It is. But, Riot is is growing, and, we just came out with our monthly,   report.   Our hash rate is, still heading record. So,   yeah, adding more machines every day.  

[01:01:23] Unknown:

Cool. Alright. Next update is, Plebe creates   a 2 of 3 multisig   air gap,   vault with code   card ledger and tap signer. It's the keykeeper.   I think that's actually the Praneef,   I think is his name,   one of the main lead devs at   Hexa Wallet. Matt Matt, I think you you know those guys,   you you know those guys well.  

[01:01:50] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, Hexa Wallet originally had, like, a novel   it was a mobile wallet that had, like, a novel Shamir's   secrets combined with multisig scheme   and no seed backups.   And they realized the importance of standards, so they pulled they pulled that scheme. They made Hexa Wallet just a basic,   you know, seed standard wallet that complies with with the seeds that everyone else uses, and then they came out with a separate app, Keeper, that is focused on multisig   and specifically working with hardware wallets on phones. So they're kinda like the second ones to do it after Nunchuk.   And I I mean, I expect this trend to continue. Like, mobile mobile first kind of experiences   are gonna become more and more common because more and more Bitcoiners, that's gonna be the main way they interact. Well, I mean, like, you know, 90% of the world is mobile first. Right? I mean,  

[01:02:42] Unknown:

it's it's pretty crazy. People who have, like, real money in in sort of, like, first world   terms. We'll have computers and they're gonna go for air gap, and it's gonna be a fuck to the money. But, like, when you're talking about, you know, the majority of the world's population, you will be mobile first. People don't actually own a computer,   and they'll have phones with crappy cameras   and, you you know, crappy screens. And that's why, like, NFC is on everything. That that like, NFC will eat the world. It already did with payments,   so it's just a progression of that. I think this is this is great. And what's cool too is that all this wallets are supporting everything. They're supporting QR's, they're supporting SD's, they're supporting NFC's.  

At the end of the day,   the more ways people have to interact with Bitcoin   and ways to not have the keys on their phones, the better.   I think this is super cool. And these guys are based in India too, which is   you know, I I hope they start focusing on that market as opposed to the North American market.   It must be a smaller market at the moment, but,   I I don't know. Like, have you talked to them about this? From my perspective,  

[01:03:48] Unknown:

there's a lot of mind share in the American English speaking   community.   So they've been basically it's, like, 2 pronged. They've they've obviously been focused on the ground in India, but, you know, they they they basically are are publicizing   themselves to American English speakers for peer review.   Like, they even have a they have a big conference they're doing there, the first Bitcoin only India conference. I'm a speaker.   Yeah. Me me me and Stefan will be remote. I think I assume you're remote as well.  

[01:04:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I just yeah. It was  

[01:04:20] Unknown:

Yeah. But they're good guys. They mean well, you know? Yep. They do.  

[01:04:24] Unknown:

They got some of the bounty   for, JavaScript,  

[01:04:27] Unknown:

library. They're not, like,   the most talented dev team by any means in the space, but but they're trying and they're improving.  

[01:04:35] Unknown:

And it's good to see because they do mean well. I think as projects like that start to have a bigger user base or more funding in those countries, they will have   a lot better quality code and a lot of things happening because they will attract better talent that wants to live there, already is from there, the life that wants to come back.   You will find,   yeah, I think the call quality will improve   as the number go up improves,   in terms of users and and Bitcoin sort of adoption.   It's bullish. You know, when you look at the quality of apps like in Brazil,   or in India, on the app stores,   you know, like   this is this is miles better,   so it's it's and it's not English centric, hopefully, for their app in their country.  

So I I think it's it's gonna take time,   and it's gonna take a lot of effort.   Okay. So the Guatemalan guy   mining   Bitcoin with used cooking oil. I mean,   how could you not just at least mention it? I just really love it. I mean, you know, the dude is like, you know, my backyard, I got a miner, I got a motor that can burn biodiesel, I'm gonna put some coconut cooking oil on it, why not?   It probably smelled terrible around it, but hey. Fantastic.   That's why the hash rate is spiking. It's that dude. That's right. You know, North America is is is is dumping   vegetable oils and, seed oils. So now we have a new path for all these crappy oils.  

Let's just, burn them and make sats.  

[01:06:08] Unknown:

If you talk with the, renewable people, for some reason, they've decided that biomass   is renewable,  

[01:06:15] Unknown:

And so It's because it grows again.  

[01:06:17] Unknown:

Right. And so they're they're, like, cutting down entire forests   to burn   instead of using coal   because   it's more renewable. But it pollutes more. It's way worse by every measure. But somebody lobbied the right people to add biomass to the list of renewable technology,   which is really just,   you know, going back to ancient technology.   But, yeah, it's it's insanity. And so I I think this guy is at the forefront of renewable Bitcoin mining. Pierre, you just have a wrong time frame in mind. Okay? See, oil is renewable.  

[01:06:53] Unknown:

Every 100000000 years, you're gonna have dinosaurs that are gonna get, you know, an algae in the ocean that's gonna be completely covered by soil again, and it's gonna make oil again. So oil is renewable.  

[01:07:04] Unknown:

Right. If you look at cooking oils through the same lens, you know, it's all the same. Everything's renewable. The biomass thing's even more fucked up because they're cutting our forests and they're shipping them to Europe so Europe can say it's renewable. We're not even burning our own forests.  

[01:07:20] Unknown:

Well, it also cuts into food supply, and that's their real goal is to deop depopulate the world. So  

[01:07:25] Unknown:

I mean, this is true for ethanol. Right? I mean, in Brazil, they do sugarcane. In the US, they do corn,   and,   you know, you're taking farmland that could be producing, you know, amazing meat or whatever,   even kale for the people who prefer kale over meat,   and they're producing crap   that's mono cropped and destroys the environment to make fuel that is really not great.   You know, you would notice on on, better combustion engines,   especially the the high end ones, they'll say no ethanol, please,   right on the tank.   So,   it's very unfortunate that we live in a world of such a   a skilled understanding   of physics.  



[01:08:07] Unknown:

And the other point to see,   related is how Europe is redefining energy   as green. Right? So for example, they were they recently redefined gas as green. Now it's in a way you can make that argument. Bombs are ESG.   Yeah. Well, I mean, ultimately necessity is driving them to actually remember,   actually, we have to be pragmatic instead of virtue signaling and wind and solar and all that. Yep.  

[01:08:31] Unknown:

Specifically with this dude, I just wanna say it's just really cool that   the way, like, proof of work works, that, like, it just rewards ingenuity. Like, the guy was just creative. He was resourceful. He figured out an edge. And then the second thing is, you know, Pierre started the environmental thing   come part of this conversation,   but he actually makes a point in the thing that the locals were just dumping the the used cooking oil in his local lake. So he can just get it from all the other people too, and instead of them dumping in the lake, he's fucking making Bitcoin off of it. Well, don't you guys remember that movie Nerds  

[01:09:03] Unknown:

that the guy had to buy a diesel car?   They're similar, you know? It just the oil is going through the garbage anyways.   Don't throw oil in your fucking local lakes, please. Yeah. Mine, make sure with them.   Alright.   Peach   was announced, came out public finally. P 2p mobile application.   Essentially, it's like a p 2p market.   I find it super cool. It's Steph, right, who's behind this. Yeah. Proof of Steph. She's been around at Amsterdam as well at this conference. She's been around Bitcoin for a while too, if memory serves well. Indeed. Not a noob.   It's just it's nice to see, her starting a project. It's nice to see this p two p thing's not using some stupid token and hipsters just exchanging crap. What's the name of that app that, like, people used? I wanna compare it to something so people know. There was an app that, like, it was the craze in North America pre COVID that, like, everybody was exchanging crap around,   and you get some credits that were not   Bitcoin.  

But  

[01:10:06] Unknown:

anyways I don't know what you're talking about.   But, anyway, the cool part about some peach is, you know, peach is mobile first, very easy to use way to get no k y c Bitcoin or to sell your Bitcoin without k y c peer to peer. But what's interesting to me is   the peach team and the Robosats team basically kind of realized it at the same time.   Maybe Huddl Huddl kinda realized it first that maybe you don't need to be   as censorship resistant as something like BISK where you have that trade off of convenience, and you can have some elements of centralization.   You're just not taking custody of funds. So they're both centralized, but they're not taking custody.  

And, basically, now it's a test.   Is that enough for regulators or not? And if it if it is enough, then we can continue using that. And if it isn't enough, then you have to go to a more censorship resistant model like this.  

[01:10:56] Unknown:

I think they will have a very hard time trying to make apps like this fit in the box of regulated stuff because   they're they're gonna have to make Craigslist or Facebook be a money, a KYC because you wanna sell a toaster.   Right? I actually sold a coffee machine today.   A guy showed up, gave me the money for the coffee machine,   and, you know, and it was my wife who had posted, right, in one of this whatever places.   And   I'm not gonna dox. Anyways, I don't wanna get into details.   But, you know, like, it's just the guy gave me some cash and then and, oh, I wish it was Bitcoin, but in a way, it kinda bettered it's not because some dude's showing up at my door. But,   it it you know, I think people greatly, like, underappreciate   the size of the informal   economy of, like, sort of, like, used trades.  

It's a monumentally   large market,   and, it it's just nice to see apps that focus on the Bitcoin stuff. Can you list,   sort of, like do they do the the gift card thing like like Bisk does? Do they do the other things like that?  

[01:12:04] Unknown:

You choose your, your preferred payment methods. There's multiple preferred payment methods. At, like, an event like Bitcoin Amsterdam, they actually enable cash if you're in Amsterdam   for the event.   And then it auto the app automatically basically matches you with a   a proper buyer.   Very cool. Yeah. And it's all mobile focused. It's super clean.  

[01:12:26] Unknown:

Very, very cool.   Alright.   Celsius discloses the name transactions. I think the community sort of, like, beat this one to DAF.   I mean,  

[01:12:35] Unknown:

it's it's a problem. Research anybody's name that use Celsius and get their Doesn't mean you should. Fair enough. Kind of, rubbernecking,  

[01:12:43] Unknown:

the,   accident on the highway.  

[01:12:46] Unknown:

Yes. Good point. Because, listen, anyone and everything  

[01:12:49] Unknown:

is searchable if you look hard enough, honestly. I mean, this is this is the issue, though. Right? The issue is that when you have KYC   information,   like, it's not gonna get KYC is the crime.   But this wasn't even a fucking hack. Like, the bankruptcy judge had them file this publicly.  

[01:13:08] Unknown:

This is the standard for bankruptcy   court in the US as far as I understand.   They are not sealed. Right? Like, they wanna include in the in the filings   every single creditor, which kinda makes sense. The problem is we live in a new world where people can, like, you know, show up at your house and kill you. So,   you know, it's not quite, like, rebalanced on how courts work. We're based on Internet and reality. Like, we have a legal system that's a little uncapped at times,   and that's true for many things. I mean, like, the fact that, like,   you know, license plates for cars work the way that they do or that the the names and addresses of, like, you know, company directors or or executives is right on filings.  

It's insanity, right, that, like, you have your personal information like that in a world where people can, like, snap their fingers and get it. Who knows? Maybe things will change in the coming years   because you'll get enough backlash, right, the politicians might sort of have to to change some of the rules. I I think you've gotta get Bitcoiners elected  

[01:14:14] Unknown:

Or just buy all the politicians. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Of course.  

[01:14:19] Unknown:

I I think what's gonna happen is Bitcoiners are just gonna own all the politicians because   productive people don't wanna be politicians.  

[01:14:27] Unknown:

It's it's a full time job.   Yeah. Minding everybody else's business. Essentially, that's the job. Right? Well, that and and you have people coming to you with their problems and you you need to fix all their problems. So it's it's like. Oh, my God. Can you imagine?   It's like winning the lottery, right? You've got people asking you for money all day long. Yeah. It's pretty brutal. Yeah.  

[01:14:50] Unknown:

Anyways, so,   you   know, like, I might as well sort of, like, at least, like, mention it, like, you know, don't store information that you don't need to legally.   Don't don't keep it. Right? Like, it it all, like, when you look at all the hacks and all the Bitcoin companies, it's always like the stupid marketing database.   It's never the actual financial tool because those actually have a higher bar security.  

[01:15:15] Unknown:

But in this case, it was a financial tool. I know. I know. I know. Don't lend out your Bitcoin.  

[01:15:20] Unknown:

Well, there's that too. Lots of lessons here.  

[01:15:24] Unknown:

But, like, Celsius was an obvious, like, Ponzi scam. Anybody offering you   anything that is, like, say,   it was actually 5, no,   6 or 7 times the interest rate   returns.  

[01:15:39] Unknown:

It it's like So this made me, like, question   my   are we're in a such a bubble.   Like, I I didn't I didn't even know Celsius really existed   until it started,   like, falling apart and, like, people are freaking out about it on Twitter.   But a lot of people used it. Like, a lot of people that I would have thought would never have used it used it.  

[01:16:00] Unknown:

That was the first,   peak by the way, we did not reach bubble levels by the rainbow chart,   so you cannot call it a bubble.  

[01:16:09] Unknown:

And we had double peaks, which also does not count. I I think he's saying that we live in an echo chamber.  

[01:16:15] Unknown:

That's right. Yeah. But I did not notice the peak either.   Like, I really didn't. I was sort of like totally going with my own life, you know, doing the things I do, and and I did not notice   that we were at the peak,   because   it was not stupid enough.   Clearly, we are in a bubble,  

[01:16:35] Unknown:

because it was stupid enough outside of our bubble. I mean, I think we're still in a bubble with you know, you were talking about earlier about the wrapped Bitcoin on these other chains. Mhmm. Like, I see that is   equivalent from an economic perspective to Celsius.   And that's you know, there's a lot that should unravel, but I I think that we'll probably end up going into a bull market before a lot of the other nonsense unravels anyway.  

[01:17:02] Unknown:

You know, I'm of the opinion that,   you know, unfortunately, the shikway market hasn't even started   because, like, the the best scammers out there haven't even heard about how they can create a scam on DeFi. Right?   So   this stuff, like,   man, the   this scam town is still gonna be like,   you know, like Yeah.   Because a 1000x, a 1000000x all we have now.  

[01:17:28] Unknown:

When we hear people talking about, like, regulatory clarity and the SEC,   basically, they're saying, like, we need to legalize shit coins. They need to be like fully   legalized.   And   when that happens, they say, oh, there's going to be massive growth in the crypto industry. And what they mean is that, like, you're going to have Apple Coin, you're going to have Google Coin, you're going to have Amazon Coin. Right. And you're going to have. Own shit coin dot cash. Yeah.   That one. But that's a legitimate investment. I don't know why you brought that up. I was talking about shit coins.   So it's only. Yeah, I agree. I think that they're going to,   they're going to legalize shit coining   because right now it's it's not fully legal, Right? Like, it's an under registered security. It's kind of in a gray area at best, you know, depending who you ask. But once it's fully legalized,   then, yeah, I think that you're gonna have the big boys come in with all their marketing, and they're going to be doing lots of pump and dumps. And,   you know, we're gonna be over here Bitcoining,   but, people will have to learn the hard way and and and come join us later.  



[01:18:35] Unknown:

Yeah. I I mean,   people wanna believe.   Right? They they wanna believe they can make those 20% returns by doing nothing. Right?   And and you can't you can't remove that from them. Like, I mean, like, there is no   pounding in the head, nothing. Like and they're gonna do again and again and again and again.   It it all like the professionals are trading 6 they were at the peak of the the S and P. They were trading 62   times revenue.  

[01:19:07] Unknown:

Okay? Like And I I see, like, 2 categories. Either the people who who do learn after getting wrecked and who, you know,   go down the right path of Bitcoin. And then the others who, as you say, are the repeat offenders.   And those people, the only way they learn is just by   or the only way they stop having an effect on the market is by not having any capital left.   And   then there's like the 3rd category of the people who are actually profiting off of all of this,  

[01:19:36] Unknown:

and they are accumulating capital off of this. And so There's a lot of smart people, man. Some of these guys are, like, absolutely brilliant.  

[01:19:45] Unknown:

The the the only thing that stops them is running out of users, right, of either the people have run out of capital and the money has all shit and changed hands or everyone else has run away and gone to Bitcoin. And that's, you know,   the the the pyramid is over. But I think the the pyramid is only,   sadly,   beginning. And,   I'm almost at the stage of, like,   we just have to ignore it and pretend it's not happening. And as you said, like, being our own echo chamber,   like, it's okay if Celsius becomes huge and, like, hundreds of thousands of people get rexed. We were telling them not to do that, and we just it's okay.  

[01:20:24] Unknown:

I I feel like mister Huddle on on Twitter. I'm not gonna dox his main stuff. Like, it it's kind of like that spinning thing that they had on Interstellar.   You know, he's been right since as far as I know him. Right?   Both attitude   and about shit coins, about all, everything. Right? So like, you know, he's like, listen, why are you trying to, why are you spending your energy trying to convince these people? Like you're not gonna convince a person that wants 20 x, you know, like, whatever. Like, just   just embrace. Let it fold flow through you. Right? Like, it is what it is. But you see, this is where,  

[01:20:59] Unknown:

I I reject his nihilism because I think there's a spectrum. And so at the margin, there are people   who,   will listen to reason,   either because they've gotten wrecked or because,   you know, they're smart enough to kind of learn the easy way of actually listening to Bitcoin Max's. And I know that because I ran this Twitter poll once of, hey, Bitcoin maximalist.   How many of you used to be shit corners? It It was like 80% of them used to be shit corners. Right? So, like, obviously,   there is a path. But I also agree with Mr. Hoddle that, like, big picture,   there's going to be,   you know, irredeemable   folks who just cannot learn.  



[01:21:40] Unknown:

I like, I specifically had I had I had multiple people reach out saying that they got out of Celsius because I wouldn't shut the fuck up.  

[01:21:48] Unknown:

And it used to be called a Ponzi even on, like, Clubhouse. Like, Clubhouse was interesting this last   peak cycle because, like, it was, like, you know, essentially capitalized normies. Right?   So it was a very, like, different kind of demographic. It was, like, say, like, 30 to 40 with money to spend on investments. Nothing like crazy, but, like,   which is not the norm on Twitter.   And, like, you could hear, like, people selling Celsius and then and then you could hear people saying Celsius is a scam, and it was fascinating to watch.   And and, you know, a lot of people there did get saved by people saying it was a Ponzi, but All I can say is a lot of people lucked out that SPF decided to save BlockFi because Right. It would have been a lot worse. I I think the the question that people should ought to ask themselves is where does the yield comes from? It should be a t shirt, should be a sticker. Where does the yield come from? I think it's too bad that SPF bailed out BlockFi. I I think that it would have been better for him not to.  



[01:22:47] Unknown:

Now   because he's a crypto bro, like, it would have been worse for him. Right? Because he needs to keep the dream alive. He was exposed.   For for in terms of, like, the truth and, you know, long term   benefit of the users,   it would have been good for them to get wrecked and to to, you know, have a wake up call. But I   fundamentally, like,   people are like, oh, look,   borrowing and lending Bitcoin, it's the free market. Right? Okay. Yeah. Sure. The problem is that in order for you to actually   be competent   at borrowing and lending Bitcoin,   And same thing with market making or trading. Like, you have to be a professional   and, like, only, like, you know, the top, you know, 1% or whatever   are good enough to actually   measure credit risk and things like that. And then it's such a new market. I don't think those people even exist. And so, like, there there's just no history   of credit in Bitcoin to base your models on, and the transparency   is nonexistent. It's fully opaque. And on top of that, somebody like BlockFi,   when you lend your coins to them, maybe you did your due diligence and they everything was great.  

And then a month later, they changed their terms of service.   They go and make a stupid loan to, you know, 3 arrows capital, and you don't know about it because you already did your due diligence a month ago and you already lent your Bitcoin, and then they blow up. So it's like, not only you have to do your due diligence once, you have to do it every day. Every day that you're lending to them, you have to do the due diligence over again. It's it's just it it's not scalable. It's a horrible product experience.   And I like, compared to just putting your Bitcoin on in cold storage and just, you know, living your life,   and not being a 247 credit analyst,   it's just incomparable.  



[01:24:41] Unknown:

And BlockFi was the pros. You know. They were they they're all from Wall Street. They're pro but on the old paradigms, like, this is, like, Bitcoin's kind of a new paradigm in terms of, like, is their yield? Is their lending?  

[01:24:51] Unknown:

I let them a few years before and I'm like   I asked them, like, where does the yield come from? They just sort of look at me like,   we just manage our treasuries well, like, you know, like, yeah, okay, great.   So you're producing Bitcoin out of thin air, and all like   it's it's such a   it's idiotic, but you know it is what it is. Alright,   I'll be the Bitcoin lightning app for your browser. So this app, it's an extension in your browser that lets you find out if there's websites that support lightning some sense for payments, for subscriptions, for whatever.   The issue is, extensions can see everything you do on the web, and this is a Bitcoin extension essentially.  

So it's like, I don't know how I feel about it. I love the idea, I just don't like the idea of extensions being able to see everything.  

[01:25:42] Unknown:

I thought it was interesting. Like,   I like the idea, obviously,   restricted   in terms of how much money you put at risk on this thing.   But it does give a great experience. Like if you want to just tip people online, if they even got, as an example, let's say you have Albie with some sass in there.   You can connect it to your own note if you choose.   And you can, it can read if somebody has the lightning emoji and the lightning address. So it just kind of, it's like a nice way to go around. So as an example, if Brave, the browser has a shitcoin in it, you don't have to use that. Or in the same way that we might copy paste each other like a lightning invoice inside signal, you don't have to use the signal shit coin, you can use Bitcoin. So it's kind of, it's interesting in that way that it might   reduce the friction. But yes, definitely. There are, you know, security   aspects that have to be   grappled with.  



[01:26:32] Unknown:

Alright. I mean, that's unsolvable because the No. It is solvable. No. No. No. I no. It is totally solvable. But they need to scan the web page to see   if there's places where you can pay. No. What we need is  

[01:26:45] Unknown:

browsers,   vendors   to support   the URIs correctly. If they were supporting the URIs correctly,   the browser doesn't have to expose the whole page   to the extension. It could just   show the URI that is present on that page.   This is really just a poor implementation   all around browsers.   It's totally doable in a reasonable   non crazy way. It's gonna get there. It's not their fault though. It's not Alby's fault. It's it's Chrome's fault. It's  

[01:27:17] Unknown:

Safari's fault. What do you think about the idea of, like, the impervious team to, like, ship a full browser?  

[01:27:22] Unknown:

I think it's idiotic.   Love them. I love people trying it, but, like,   a a modern browser is, like, 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of lines of code.   It's a monumentally large project that needs to be done by a monumentally well capitalized entity,   and it needs a proper sort of, like, way of looking at how to raise that capital.   The the challenge is, like, what they're gonna end up doing I don't know about them. Just sort of thinking here is, like, they're gonna probably use, like, you know, either Chromium or  

[01:27:55] Unknown:

They're building on top of Firefox.  

[01:27:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Which is Like, Brave Brave used Chromium.   Chromium. Right? Like, it it's essential like, didn't Google sort of, like didn't Firefox replace their core stuff with Google stuff?  

[01:28:08] Unknown:

I think they did. But Firefox as it was doesn't exist anymore, I I think. I I can't remember. I don't follow browsers anymore. What it basically is is it's like one of the office shelf browsers, but there's a default web app running. Like, that's what you see when you load up the previous browser. That's it shows you a default web app instead of the, you know, the the welcome screen you see. And but then they can also run like a daemon in the background, which is how they do their   decentralized identity stuff. So that's the one benefit they have of of, and I I think they can have, like, a they could have a lightning node running in the browser too, like, in the background. I don't know if they actually do that yet, but so it's just they have the ability to run a daemon. But, yeah, the browser itself, they they can't really modify too much.  

[01:28:49] Unknown:

Okay. So I digress. It's not idiotic.   I think it's like,   it's a very,   very difficult thing to achieve   in the in the actual end goal if you're not like some massive entity just because it's so much cold to write,   and   web technologies are like Swiss cheese, right? Like it's just   holes everywhere, it's very difficult to secure,   You know, even Google being Google, there is like 0 day exploits.  

[01:29:17] Unknown:

Then there's one interesting thing that's kind of a little bit of a side thing. There's a there's a there's a a really interesting open source project called Serenity OS,   which one guy, just started writing for fun about 4 years ago. And now it's like a full operating system. He wrote the entire thing himself, including   an entire browser implementation. So he reimplemented JavaScript, HTML, CSS, absolutely everything from scratch. And now they just he just implemented he just released this as like a a kind of electron app type thing. So it is interesting that you can build a like, basically, a few people built that browser and it's not really up to snuff yet. But it's it's kind of an interest it's an inspiring story about a few motivated people can do in open source. You know? Like, they did build a like Temple OS.  

[01:29:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It's like Temple OS, but it's actually kinda getting there. It's a it's a cool one. But they built a whole browser. But isn't there, like, actually a massive, like, isn't there still, like, a big security risk? Like, I mean, there's, like, massive. There's, like Well, especially when money's involved. Vulnerabilities put out in Chrome and Firefox all the time. Right? Yeah. How would they keep this thing secure?  

[01:30:15] Unknown:

You know? It it's brutal, guys. Like, the the   the the browser game is absolutely remember, the browser was not designed to any of the stuff that it does in modern days.  

[01:30:26] Unknown:

Well, you hear about remote remote code execution. Right? That's a the worst thing that can happen in software. Right?   That's kind of what a browser is. That's literally what a browser is.   Yes. It's like an environment for remote code execution. It downloads code over the inter Internet and executes it. So it's really insane the job that a browser attempts to perform. And, you know, you have 2 you could have 2 web apps with 222   tabs. One is for one bank and one is for other, and they can't steal from each other. It's kind of an insane thing that they accomplished that, you know, that works at all. Yeah. It's, and sometimes they do steal from each other.  

[01:31:03] Unknown:

That's the problem with browse. Yep.   Alright.   So the the tornado cash guy,   he's appeal essentially, they're selling all his crap now. The guy's screwed.   I doubt that,   that this guy's gonna get off because again what a lot of people don't realize is that the legal system   agree or don't agree   is very well designed,   especially after Al Capone and crew   to to go after all your crap,   you know, if they don't like you.   You know? So like   if you were running a project like that and you somehow took any financial   gains from from the project,   they will try to go after that, and they will use that to go after all your stuff. It's it's unfortunate,   you know, privacy projects to have   very large,   install base like they were doing, they will suffer   the state's ire.  

Regardless if it's correct or incorrect or even if the state is correct legally, they'll find a way.   So the best we can all do is have decentralized projects that don't have coordinators   because that is a massive, massive hole.   I think Matt doesn't have anything to say about privacy. But in this case in this case,  

[01:32:27] Unknown:

I just wanna be clear. I mean, there was no centralized coordinator  

[01:32:32] Unknown:

on Tornado Cash. Like Yeah. But he might have been taking   He was. Fees? They had a shitcoin attached to it. Well, there you go. Like, you're profiting from crime. That's the way they define it. I think it's more of a lesson in  

[01:32:44] Unknown:

in in developer OPSEC. Right?  

[01:32:48] Unknown:

I don't think you can keep your OPSEC perfect,   like, to this extent. I think that the key here is not to take   profit   from   the essential mixing.  

[01:32:59] Unknown:

I think that that is the same. I I just think the the the problem with with this logic is that it could be interpreted to be like,   oh, if you are holding Bitcoin,   by extension, you are profiting from people money laundering because that is increasing the value of your Bitcoin.   And therefore,  

[01:33:19] Unknown:

what's to stop them? You say no. You're not the supreme court. You're you don't get to decide. Like, I am not like, I I Pierre, I don't I don't disagree with you in logic, but I just don't think they would move it to that extent   just because it becomes too broad.  

[01:33:32] Unknown:

I think that it is entirely at their discretion.   So, you know, if the wrong treasury secretary is in office, if the wrong president's in office, if somebody does the wrong thing with Bitcoin   and, you know, the Fiat bros get triggered and they want to do as big of a crackdown as they can. Now granted, I think that at this point,   the   it it would be so politically unpopular  

[01:33:55] Unknown:

that, yeah, I I think that it's So this is how you win. Right? You win by by having   them having the same bags as you do. That's one thing. You also win by fighting,  

[01:34:08] Unknown:

for every little inch. Right? And so I think that those are great. I while I have zero interest in Ethereum or Tornado Cash, I think it's fantastic   that they are fighting this in in court, and they're fighting for every inch here because that puts that much more distance between,   the Fiat Bros and our lovely orange coin. So I think it's it's great. But yeah. I I  

[01:34:34] Unknown:

yeah, I'll leave it there. Yeah. I think the problem is, like, we agree on everything here.   What I'm trying to say is   when you have a very direct and obvious   sort of thing, like, you know, at least in their view, in their very,   you know, ignorant view of software,   You are   running the thing that does directly   sort of like make this,   you know, like illegal   activity happen and you're directly taking profit from that where they can go and say, like, look, from this wallet to this wallet You've just described you've just described Bitcoin mining as well, arguably.  

[01:35:10] Unknown:

Right? That, hey. The transaction fees from this mixing service are being paid to this minor that's including the trans right? Like,   I agree with you. That's the logic they're using. They're trying to use this logic. I'll put it that way because This is what I'm saying. It's like I am not defending the logic. I'm just saying that that's the logic they need. Should be fought.   No. It's the that's the logic they're trying to use here.  

[01:35:34] Unknown:

Yeah.   And this guy is not in US. Right?  

[01:35:38] Unknown:

Yeah. It's worse in Europe.   Like, it's worse in Europe than in the US for sure. Exactly.  

[01:35:43] Unknown:

So, like, listen. It's what I'm trying to say is, you know, this is the world we have, we should fight it, but this is the world we have. So, like, this guy is in a jurisdiction that that he did   as they are describing, crossed the line, and they're trying to go after that. They're clearly succeeding.   I hope I hope that people fighting it win, but, like,   realistically speaking, he should have sick some, like, you know, legal advice before he chose the design.  

[01:36:12] Unknown:

To be clear, the the real fight that's happening is, like, Coin Center is suing the US Treasury. Like, they're suing Janet Yellen specifically,   because the OFAC   OFAC, an American organization, put him on the sanction list, and that's why the Netherlands arrested him.   So, like, the the court case over in the Netherlands is, like, him just arguing over with, like, the then we had the puppets rather than fighting the master, and that's why coin center's fighting it in the US.  

[01:36:40] Unknown:

It's a it's a very uncomfortable thing to have your country   sort of, like, dictating how I am in a different country,   what I can and can't do. It's kinda funny because, like, in Canada, you can ship to Cuba   in all products and stuff. Like, in, you know, we we can have Cuban products. Right? Are you shipping to Cuba?   Yeah. We can ship to Cuba. But people are buying it from Cuba, or is that not allowed to not no comment? I'm not gonna discuss customer Okay. Alright. Purchases. But Look it up in your database. Look up, in your marketing ways. We have to take we have to take it super seriously. Right? Because if we have products going to places that have sanction lists, right,   like, you could really, like, be in trouble,   and and our goal is not to be in trouble.  

You know what I mean? I don't wanna be a marcher. I I want somebody else to be a martyr.  

[01:37:28] Unknown:

Tornado Cash. Yeah. Got it. Thank you, Shitcoiner.  

[01:37:32] Unknown:

Shitcoiner is our moat. Yeah.  

[01:37:35] Unknown:

And, you know, they're they're distraction for, like, individuals, but it's great that they're also a distraction for governments. And I I think that we we have to give them credit for that. It's more than that.  

[01:37:46] Unknown:

They're also very flaunty,   so they're also a distraction for bad guys. Bad guys tend to go after Bitcoiners more than go after Bitcoiners, it seems.   So thank you, Bitcoiners.  

[01:37:59] Unknown:

From what I've heard, I don't think anything bad has happened to Richard Hart. So that's the canary in the coal mine. Maybe he doesn't have anything.  

[01:38:07] Unknown:

You know, when people flaunt to that level, they're probably broke.  

[01:38:10] Unknown:

Yeah. And nobody wants to steal his his horrible luxury goods either.  

[01:38:15] Unknown:

I don't know, man. I I he he definitely has the the gangster look sort of, like, vibe, going with the outfits, but god knows. I mean, maybe gangsters have moved on from Louis Vuitton.   Alright. From one gangster to another, grayscale   unveils,   Bitcoin mining center investment   entity.   And if well, you are the mining expert there, Pierre.  

[01:38:38] Unknown:

The the more the merrier, you know, anybody can contribute hash. Wonderful.  

[01:38:43] Unknown:

European Union announces new sanctions against Russia. Oh, I'm surprised, and,   I support the current thing and the existing prohibitions on crypto.   Assets have been   tightened by banning all crypto wallets,   accounts, and custody services   irrespective   of amount of the wallet, previously €10,000.   This is so fucking idiotic. That's why, like, the young people love the yields. It's like,   you know, state actors trying to come up with rules about how you're not or supposed to, like if you're supposed to gamble, transfer, or whatever, and then these kids find all this crypto shit,   and they just do whatever they want. Like, look, I'm gambling. Right? Like like, come after me if you want to.  

I think state actors are gonna start behaving like the same.   It's, it's gonna be very interesting if we see the the pariah states, as they call them, having serious   holds of of, of Bitcoin and other and other shit coins.  

[01:39:44] Unknown:

Yeah. So presumably, this will be for the custodial exchanges. Maybe they'll   have to be, they'll be required to do some chain surveillance and IP geo blocking and things like this. You really have to do that? Yeah. But I mean, in this case,   to block Russia, right, to sending anything to a Russian, you know, whatever, to a person presumed to be in Russia or things like this. So what they're really doing is,  

[01:40:05] Unknown:

North Korea   then comma Iran, they just added another comma now Russia. Like, I mean, it's really it's no.  

[01:40:12] Unknown:

I'm guessing. Yeah. And, you know, what what Kraken was doing is that they were still serving clients in Russia, but they were taking all the trading fees and donating it to Ukrainians.   And now instead, what's gonna happen is that Russia somebody in Russia, you know, is gonna benefit from the fact that now they have fewer competitors,   and they'll grow a Russian Bitcoin exchange.   And, the trading fees will not go to Ukrainians.  

[01:40:41] Unknown:

There you go. Well, it's the same with, you know, like, the the the creative bullshit against Elon because he decided to have a plan   piece. You may not agree with it. That's whatever. Right? I mean, like, people have different   sort of, like, views on this, but,   you know, the guy is literally donating all this fucking gear and the service to you. So, like, be grateful.   And if he's like, I'm pretty sure that this newfound issue with the with the service cost,   is pretty much a, you know what? Go fuck yourselves   kind of thing.  

So,   yeah, fuck war. Can we please find peace? If you wanna end inflation, find peace.  

[01:41:20] Unknown:

Do you think do you think they go far do any of you guys think they go farther than just,   enforcing it on the, like, the regulated services level? Like, do they look at do will they use chain surveillance to be like,   you know, NVK withdrew from Swan and then sent to his Oh, probably. Russian Oh, yeah. No. That's part of KYC, Matt.  

[01:41:43] Unknown:

So the anti money laundering and the KYC regulation for, like, proper sort of exchanges and things   require you to essentially know what your customer is gonna do with the money.  

[01:41:54] Unknown:

You're kinda on the hook. But so that's that's the concern. I mean, the concern is that, obviously, they can't ban   Russian wallets on the protocol level,   but the concern is   that it's it's gonna be selectively enforced. Yeah. But it's gonna be   it will probably be enforced,   by putting a gun to someone's head who got caught sending to   a Russian identified wallet. Yep.  

[01:42:17] Unknown:

But that's how the whole Rico stuff started in the US with Al Capone. Right? I mean, it's like, oh, you're remotely related to him. You guys talk to each other at a bar. We think you're benefiting from crime. Boom. Nabbed.   So, like, it it all this is all about selective enforcement because it's impossible   to have arbitrary rules and do broad enforcement. Right? So they just really wanna go after the people they don't like or do parallel reconstruction   or or like   a a post   say you do something later in life, you know, within the the the limitation period,   and they go, oh,   you sent a donation to Russia   of $1 5 years ago, whatever the limitation period is, and they will try to nab you for that.  

It's,   yeah. I mean, KYC and MAO laws are the crime.   Bitnob Launches in Kenya. Wasn't this Bitnob thing sort of, like, some major shit show just recently?  

[01:43:14] Unknown:

No? Oh, what happened with them? I don't know what you mean. There wasn't, like, that website sold to some other website or some? No. That that's Bitbo, which is the price tracker with the Okay. News feed. This is Bid Nob, which is a Nigerian exchange. It also launched in Ghana and Kenya.   It's run by Bernard Perra.   He's fucking awesome.   And   this Kenya thing is interesting because he also integrated with M Pesa, which is the existing   cell phone payment network in Kenya Nice. Other countries, but it's only integrated in Kenya. So you can presumably send   a lightning payment directly to someone's well, not directly, but you can send a lightning payment that gets settled into someone's M Pesa account that they're already used to. Just making remittances   that much easier.  



[01:44:00] Unknown:

Nice. So so, essentially, this is   connecting   the existing   phone and PESA style   services there to Bitcoin?  

[01:44:11] Unknown:

Yeah. And all the other Kenyans as well. But, like, there's, I I don't   know. It's, like, 50, 60,000,000 people are using M Pesa in in Kenya. Everybody does.   So they, like, sign up for Bitnub, and then they just, like, attach their M Pesa account to it, and then they have a lightning address, which is a relative standard now, like a lot of services support that. And you can just send the lightning address and it goes straight. It just converts their local currency and drops into their M Pesa account. And then they can do vice versa. They can   send out from M Pesa to Lightning.  



[01:44:43] Unknown:

Very nice.   I don't remember  

[01:44:46] Unknown:

when the last time we recorded Bitcoin review was, but was that was that before the Swan acquisition of Spectre?  

[01:44:54] Unknown:

It may have been. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we might have mentioned it. Yeah. I can't I can't remember because the web the website is broken.  

[01:45:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I guess I can I can obviously I'm I'm working at Swan, so let me throw a few comments in? So the idea is it's you know, think of it like a vertical integration.   Corey and the guys are very clear that specter will remain a false free open source project.   But the idea is that as a vertical integration, it can enable people who are coming on board with this one that you might be stacking some stats with Swan and then later,   okay, now it's time to upgrade. It's time to do this and that go to single SIG or potentially to multi SIG. So,   yeah, that's kind of where that's the direction,   that the team is,   looking to go with the with the project.  



[01:45:38] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's it's very challenging for   for wallets to   to monetize.   Like, all wallets will have that problem, software wallets.   It is,   I I you know, unless they are selling shitcoins, which is what most   of the software wallets that are well monetized do.   So I I do I do feel like this might be   the direction that a lot of the the wallets will go and still get acquired by companies that already have a path to monetization.   If that is a Shecoin Casino, if that is,   you know, something else, I mean, we hope to help some of them monetize with selling the cards and maybe giving a cut of the cards to them,   but, you know, there's only so much. And another problem too is, like, say you launch a wonderful,   app wallet, right, that that charges, I don't know, like, $5 for you to download,   you know, it's gonna be open source, so somebody's just gonna copy it or somebody's gonna launch it, you know, very new great code base for free because it's their pet project, and then nobody's gonna pay for your wallet. So it it's a very tricky sort of space. It's always been. So I don't know. It's just nice to see   companies that don't shells don't sell shitcoins acquiring   Bitcoin open source projects instead of, like, you know, bootstrapping that.  



[01:46:57] Unknown:

When's CoinKite going to acquire Bitcoin Core?  

[01:47:01] Unknown:

We're actually in talks right now. Before this call, I had a a one on one, meeting with the Bitcoin CEO,   and we're working on it.   It's hard. I mean, on the plus side, I mean, it's like it's full, so it's not gonna cost too much. Right? It's gonna come with a little bit of craft,   and, I think one of the biggest sticking points is the fact that we want to, name, blacklists back to blacklists.   So, that's gonna be a sticky point. But,   again,   negotiations.  

[01:47:29] Unknown:

Where's gonna be the point where we can put in our pronouns   into,   our hardware?  

[01:47:34] Unknown:

Yeah. We're we're gonna,   all the hardware is gonna be, the they pronoun going forward,   just for sake of clarity and, and a single kind of variable there. That's great. So anyways, yeah, looking forward to that.   Bloc's decentralized   exchange protocol   team, TBD, partners, the circle.   Okay. Great.   You guys have any comments about TBD because it's TBD.  

[01:48:03] Unknown:

I don't understand what it even is.  

[01:48:06] Unknown:

Okay.   Same here.   It's the same with that other thing that,   Carvalho is working on, the synergy Synonym. Synonym. The Bolt thing. Yeah. I also have no idea.   Big O and Veos Castillo Lightning, that's that's great actually because,   they have huge penetration   into   the corporate world of custody and things,   and they understand very well insurance and all that crap.   So   for any sort of, like, large entity that's probably already on Bigo   doing Bitcoin. Now they probably offer Lightning. Sure. It's   shit KYC Lightning, but still, like, it's kind of amazing deployment.   It's a huge install base. Right? Absolutely.  



[01:48:52] Unknown:

Mhmm. Another related one was that it's not on the notes, but River River just announced   an API, like a custodial lightning API,   which is, you know, there's happened before, but I I bet they did a really good job on it because they they tend to execute well when they do something.   And it looks like they've from their little landing page rls.dev,   they've partnered with Chivo, which is kinda cool. Because Chivo,   you know, is like this nice idea to have, like, a an a wallet that a bunch of people would use, but it wasn't implemented terribly well. So it's it's nice to see. And it's always a question, like, who who is behind it? Right? So it's it's nice to see that they're partnering with some real Bitcoin companies.  

[01:49:31] Unknown:

So I think it might be, like, the 3rd or 4th entity trying to make Chivo work now?  

[01:49:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So, actually, the one of the panels that I moderated, just yesterday was Bitcoin and Sovereign, and one of the guys on it was one of the directors from Alpha Point, who is one of the companies working on Chivo. So   yeah. Okay.  

[01:49:50] Unknown:

Hopefully, people in, El Salvador will move to something else that's not Chivo soon.   I hope that nobody in El Salvador uses Chivo.   You know, they can take their free money from the   the distribution through Chivo and then move it to their own wallets,   and then we're all winning,  

[01:50:07] Unknown:

But it it's nice to see. I like the the idea of,   every every   government   having its own wallet, and,   they're they're competing against each other trying to get wallet users. But,   as long as it's interoperable. Right? So as long as you can send the Bitcoin out to your own wallet and   use using on chain or lightning. I think that's the issue. Right? You know, as you were saying, like, it's so hard to monetize wallets.   Maybe they just have to be subsidized by taxes. There  

[01:50:35] Unknown:

you go.   Let's make it rain.   What we need is, tax grants. Instead of going to artists making murals about things that nobody cares, they could go to devs making wallets that everybody needs.  

[01:50:49] Unknown:

So yeah. So, actually,   there is legislation   that has been proposed about,   getting more science grants towards,   you know,   digital currencies,   to improve inclusion.   So I think that just making wallets easier to use,   you know, will help bring in more,   marginalized   peoples   of wherever.   And that way, there's there's a   it's it's certainly better than them working on a CBDC.   Right?  

[01:51:24] Unknown:

Mhmm. A 100%. Anything is better than CBDCs   unless   they have a very good exchange to convert CBDC to Bitcoin that I am all for CBDC. Why not just get rid of the conversion like a well, Chivo has dollars as well in it. Right? And, like You can't get rid of the conversion, Pierre. The money printer needs to go from money printer to Bitcoin.   Alright.   You you know how this works. I won't get into we'll we'll take up the rest of the podcast arguing about this, but, yeah, I'm okay. No. I I agree with you, but they're not gonna let go of the printer.   El Salvador doesn't have a printer, but yeah. Yeah. I know. That's they are one of the only countries that doesn't.  

All right, so Bitcoin mining   hosting   company Compute Nor File, so we've already, that's also   this is one of the problems of having a show that only comes, you know, like every   3 to 3 2 to 4 weeks is that, like, some of the news starts getting old, the compute north, chapter 11. In case this podcast is the only one you listen to,   this,   this this compute north company   had a a real sort of Nortel vibe to it. A lot of empty data centers   with with skids and nothing installed.   It's, you know, it's a shame to see companies going, belly up, but, it does happen.  

[01:52:45] Unknown:

Not the last.  

[01:52:47] Unknown:

Definitely not the last. The bear market is only starting.  

[01:52:51] Unknown:

I I have,   I see, you know, others hitting all time lows in their stock price, but,   yeah, it's a tough tough market out there for the hash price.  

[01:53:03] Unknown:

You know, if Jim Cramer is starting to get very concerned, I think, I think we might have,   we might have passed the worst part of it.  

[01:53:12] Unknown:

I, you know, I thought his tweet was so funny about how he works 20 hours a day, and it's the the haters that motivate him. And I'm like,   this is just such a huge cell phone.   You're in your sixties   and you still haven't   you haven't even, you know, retired a little bit, Right? You haven't even gotten, like, part time,   and you're trapped by your haters. Like, you're, like, in this jail of your own making. This is a horrible admission, but  

[01:53:38] Unknown:

poor poor Jake. Amazing how people like that still exist in the public world. Do you know what I mean? Like like, that to me is, like, the the weirdest part of all this is, like, how does a person like that has a platform and he gets paid   to show up and stuff? It's all momentum.   It's weird.  

[01:53:55] Unknown:

Proof of stake.  

[01:53:57] Unknown:

Alright. So I'm gonna only glance over the Bitcoin op tech newsletter because there's a lot here. They've been doing their own Twitter spaces, which are  

[01:54:06] Unknown:

great. Why don't you just take the recording from their Twitter space, splice it in here? That's a great idea.  

[01:54:13] Unknown:

This could be the only podcast.   This is the only Bitcoin podcast that you that you have to do. Aggregate. You could take all the all the Bitcoin podcasts and attach them into this video, and then they let you show podcast somebody listens to. I I like this because, you know, we do the introductory  

[01:54:30] Unknown:

3 hours, 4 hours, and then we just have all the other pods for another 8 to, like, 10 hours.   And we do it in, like, 2 x only. Right? We we take out the ads, we take out the host commentaries,   and we only put the content to 2 x.  

[01:54:44] Unknown:

I think you're onto something here. It could be 1 podcast to rule them all.  

[01:54:50] Unknown:

So,   I'm gonna skip the LN stuff.   Okay, so Bitcoin implementation designed for testing soft forks on Signet, that's amazing. If you don't know what Signet is, go check it out. They have some good explanations of it. It's just another testnet set up that's much better.   What else?   Propose new transaction relay policies designed for more lightning. It's all lightning. I'm skipping the uptech   competitions. So Bitcoin design community,   the Zignaton.   Designathon.   Imagine a traditional hackathon, but focus on design.   That's great.  

But somebody has to implement that. And I always urge   people who do design to remember that once the design is done, it doesn't mean it gets implemented. You still need to get buy in to get somebody to implement it.   And that is true for concepts   or actual UI design.   Otherwise, it's just a pretty thing on a book.   They are doing something at, at, Bitcoin builder day at dotcomf as well, which is kinda cool. Yeah. Builder day, it was it was cool,  

[01:55:55] Unknown:

about, you know, the big big hall, about 200 people, 10, 15 tables, different open source projects. Feddyman had a table, LBK.   I think, Taro had a table,   c lightning,   a whole bunch of them.   You know, just all onboarding new open source developers. Right? So, like, get clone the repo, set up the development developer environment, run the tests. Like,   it was nice to see all these people sort of a handful of commits were made for the first time. So that was really neat as opposed to hackathon where it it kind of becomes like a fake startup competition. Everyone's trying to, like, make some fake startups. I hate hackathons.   It's cooler when it's like, okay, let's, actually try to do something productive here, like, onboard onto onto see lightning. You know?  



[01:56:39] Unknown:

Very nice. Did you get the designers to actually try to change some stuff and make some commits?  

[01:56:44] Unknown:

The designers were mostly working on   with pens and crayons.  

[01:56:50] Unknown:

Wonderful.   Finger paints, various things like that. Yeah. If you're gonna pixel push, you have to push the pixel and make a   commit. What else? Legends of lightning,   online global tournament for,   makers to learn, connect, collaborate,   lots of stuff.   Oh, it's happening right now.  

[01:57:10] Unknown:

I think it's so this is like an ongoing thing. I know John Spahary   was,   wanting to get get on and, basically publicize about this a bit more. The idea is that there's, like, ongoing ways that people can be contributing.   That's kind of my understanding of it so far. I know there's a bunch of lightning people who are involved. So Very cool. Yeah. If anyone else has anything. He basically had, like, the same concern,  

[01:57:33] Unknown:

that Justin kinda just highlighted, which is, like, hackathons,   people come up with, you know, like, a quarter of a project, and then it just, like, dies after the hackathon. And he's trying to incentivize more momentum in, like, longer term.  

[01:57:46] Unknown:

You know, we've always said this internally here   that hackathons   is kind of like you cannot you cannot make a product or a surface   in that span of time,   especially like conceptually and implementation wise, like I think it's a lot of fun for people to find people they want to work with.   I think it's fun for people to find ideas,   but I think people shouldn't take hackathon seriously. I think they should just sort of like use it as a as a fun thing to do.   Come up with something silly to do, accomplish it, and then, oh, shit. I have a bunch of people I like to work with. Maybe we should come up with a world changing idea   and take 2 years to build it. So, yeah,   very cool. Events,   adopting Bitcoin is November 15 to 17 in El Salvador, Africa Bitcoin Conference, December 5 to 7th.  

That one is very cool to see.   I think it's, like, the first super, like, proper big Bitcoin conference in Africa.   Unconfiscatable,   December 6th to 7th.   I don't know if they're gonna do in Vegas or not, but it was actually fun last year. Anyways,   do you guys have any other news   thing or something we missed in this,   because it's only been 2 hours and 10 minutes, which is a very short, Bitcoin dot review.   Otherwise, I'm gonna have to have clips of Marty,  

[01:59:13] Unknown:

reading the release notes. Yeah. Oh, I guess might as well just mention there's a couple other events. There's plan b Lugano.   That's a plan b forum. That's on end of October.   There's specific Bitcoin that's on 10th 11th November in in LA,   on this Bitcoin for India. So that's gonna be, like another one in start of November. I think it's around 4th or 5th off the top of my head. So that'll be cool. They're trying to grow the India scene. So yeah. Thank you. Where those are those?  

[01:59:39] Unknown:

They definitely thought inviting MBK to speak would mean he would mention in the event section, and he still left it out.  

[01:59:45] Unknown:

I I  

[01:59:47] Unknown:

You gotta pay top dollar to get into that, events section.  

[01:59:51] Unknown:

You know, I think that you know, now that I have had beer here for a second time, you know, I can actually bring it up without being awkward. So, like, I really want that minor kind of revenue   and advertising dollars on the show.   We we need a lead, an exclusive sponsor of this.  

[02:00:09] Unknown:

You know, it's not just revenue. Right? Like, minors have costs as well. Oh, you wanna give me some costs?  

[02:00:17] Unknown:

Yeah. Hey. Listen. If you can find a way of giving me on the books losses for me, that counts too. Okay?   I will buy loss at a discount   to put on my balance sheet for my year end.   I accept that too.  

[02:00:32] Unknown:

I love accountants. Yep. Alright. I'll send you some liabilities.  

[02:00:36] Unknown:

Thank you.   I will take it.   Okay, guys.   Any last thoughts? Pierre, you go.  

[02:00:44] Unknown:

No. Excited to see all the progress, in particular,   the giant multisig. I mean, I think that even aside from just having a massive multisig,   just getting   more out of the same amount of block space,   I came out with a research report with Joe Burnett from Blockware about   transaction fees.   I think that the the biggest myth in Bitcoin is this idea that there's a,   tragedy of the commons with, block space and transaction fees. It's sort of unfortunate. The kind of concern trolling about long term security and all this. So go check out that research report. Go to Riot Blockchain.com,   news and press and research in the menu there. So,   yeah, excited about   big multi sigs taking up very little space on chain. So thanks for having me on. Thank you.  



[02:01:37] Unknown:

Justin,  

[02:01:38] Unknown:

any final thoughts? Yeah. The, list the list went AWOL,   before the show. I was gonna put some FEDI Mint news on there, but the list disappeared,   from GitHub. I don't know where the list is currently. I don't know if it will return next time. But, yes, Fedimint had a big month or 2 months since we last spoke.   We got our first signet deployed. We had a mainnet demo at HCP   conference, and, our friend Paul Miller, future Paul, mentioned earlier in the show helped build a basic mobile prototype. So, like, a private send and receipt custodial lightning wallet, which is really neat.   And,   yeah. There's also a really cool research project   where, some people,   Nick Farrow,   Lloyd Fornia, and others made a,   a demonstration of a Taproot native wallet that would use Frost to to coordinate the multisig. So the cool thing is the federation would just have, like,   an address or, you know, a footprint on chain that would look exactly the same as, like, any other Taproot wallet. So it's still kind of a research project, but,   things are moving along. If you're a talented Rust developer, please head over to our Discord, chat at fediment.org.  

Maybe onto Stefan Lavera.  

[02:02:45] Unknown:

Yeah. No. It's, we definitely did a rug bull there on the on the comments and how it's,   how it's added and stuff.   Too bad. I I wanted to have the stuff for the list. That's why I always ask the   the the wonderful guests to submit their updates   in time. Right? Justin, you even got 2 free domains out of this call.  

[02:03:07] Unknown:

What a lucky. What a lucky.  

[02:03:09] Unknown:

What a lucky guy.   So So Fedmint is hiring. If you are a Rust Fedmint is an open source project.  

[02:03:17] Unknown:

You can come contribute to it. Fedi, the company, is Yeah. Fetti Fetti is hiring.  

[02:03:22] Unknown:

Fetti is paying, and Fetti Mint is benefiting.   Go work for Justin. He is,   he's a he's a good a good employer, I assume.   Yeah. No. It's,   well, thanks thanks for, for coming, Justin.   Stefan.  

[02:03:37] Unknown:

Yeah.   So I think,   you know, we're in a best cycle. We, I think one thing that I've been saying is, some good community growth. We're seeing like meetup scenes growing. We're seeing, especially in the non English scene, like it's almost like in 2018,   there was, that was almost a growth of the English Bitcoin only. And now this cycle is seeing some of the non English Bitcoin only scenes growing around the world. So, you know, just keep up the momentum. Of course, it's a bear cycle, but, doesn't mean we can't have fun along the way.  

[02:04:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Hey, Matt. I've been learning a lot with you. Did you notice that this time I each I called each person and I asked them to give their final thoughts? This is why it's it's beneficial to have an experienced cohost. I know. I love having you as a guest, and I'm very appreciative of that. For people that don't know, Matt has recorded the the rabbit hole recap this morning. He's, I don't know, like   it's a good 20 day streak of being hangover   in conferences and parties.   I I do I I honestly don't know how he does it, but he clearly does it. So, Matt, any final thoughts?  

[02:04:40] Unknown:

This was a fun conversation. It was a great crew.   I enjoyed it. And,   just a second, Stefan's thoughts, like, in Amsterdam, the Dutch Bitcoin community is strong as fuck. I had no idea.   I was I I was blown away. It was it was pretty cool meeting all of them.   And, Yeah. I'm bullish. Let's go.  

[02:05:01] Unknown:

You know, it's funny. The earliest   biggest Bitcoin conference that ever happened, it was big enough, was actually Bitcoin Foundation Amsterdam in 2014,   which was like ginormous,   and and it had like it was proper production value as weird. It was like a a Bitcoin conference of today   in that time, and that was, I think, the last one of that size for a while too. The the Dutch community is amazing.  

[02:05:25] Unknown:

Was that the one where Vitalik   announced as quantum mining scam?  

[02:05:29] Unknown:

No. I I might that might have been earlier.   Supposedly, that was in Amsterdam. There was a lot of contention of Bitcoin Foundation at that time. And I think there was a competing conference at the same time as well, so I can't remember where that was.   I we did have a guy come into our booth drunk and   and order a massive skid of CoinKite payment terminals to his hotel,   which was a very complicated setup, but it was it was an interesting conference nonetheless.   Anyways, guys, I I I really appreciate the fact that you guys all   came and and joined us for, what is it, like, almost, almost 2 hours and a half. It's a big list.  

So,   and Justin is hiring.   Thank you and, you know, everybody have a a fantastic day. Thank you.  

[02:06:15] Unknown:

See you next time.  

[02:06:17] Unknown:

Thanks, guys. Bye.  

[02:06:20] Unknown:

Thanks for listening and going through another boring list of updates once again. Don't forget to get in touch on Twitter at Bitcoin Review HQ or the Telegram Bitcoin Review pod or email bitcoin review atquaintite.com.   Remember, I don't have a crystal ball. So if you have a cool project you're working on, do make sure to get in touch with us.   And if you're still not bored, you can follow me on Twitter at nvk.